1 00:00:18,399 --> 00:00:21,359 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,160 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the 3 00:00:25,199 --> 00:00:29,760 Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:30,359 --> 00:00:32,960 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,200 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, 6 00:00:37,759 --> 00:00:40,640 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:40,759 --> 00:00:44,079 of course to our premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,200 Our guest today needs no introduction, but because this is 9 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,479 a podcast and an audio only podcast at that, I 10 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:55,799 think in introduction is necessary. It is Grover Norquist joining 11 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,439 US President of Americans for Tax Reform. We have much 12 00:00:59,479 --> 00:01:03,920 to talk about on the tax reform area, particularly after 13 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:10,519 a long and stupid government shut down that well, at 14 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,519 the end of the day, let's face it, when we 15 00:01:12,599 --> 00:01:18,159 have a shutdown, it's the American taxpayer that ultimately gets screwed. Grover, 16 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,359 thank you so much for joining us on this edition 17 00:01:20,359 --> 00:01:21,719 of the Federalist Radio Hour. 18 00:01:22,159 --> 00:01:23,879 Speaker 2: So Matt, thank you delighted to be with you. 19 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,879 Speaker 1: Absolutely listen. By the way, first and foremost, let me 20 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,920 say happy fortieth anniversary. 21 00:01:31,079 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 2: Yes, it is the fortieth anniversary of the taxpayer Protection Pledge, 22 00:01:36,719 --> 00:01:43,000 and I came up with it nineteen eighty six in 23 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,680 order to help pass the Tax Reform Act of nineteen 24 00:01:45,719 --> 00:01:49,079 eighty six, and a lot of Republicans said, you know what, 25 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,760 if we broaden the base, mean get rid of deductions 26 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,680 and credits, and reduce the right in a way that 27 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:01,640 doesn't raise our reduce taxes. Democrats want to reduce taxes, 28 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:06,439 Republicans weren't going to raise them, so they they took 29 00:02:06,439 --> 00:02:09,800 the rates down. Top rate was twenty seven. The two 30 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,560 rates fifteen and twenty seven. How far we've gone from that. 31 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:17,560 Thank you George Doub Herbert Walker Bushes starting that process, 32 00:02:18,719 --> 00:02:20,960 opening the door to the Democrats to do it. But 33 00:02:21,039 --> 00:02:23,479 at the time we were passing this much lower rate. 34 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,080 And the pledge says I will oppose and vote against 35 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,280 any efforts to increase rates or to broaden the base 36 00:02:31,759 --> 00:02:35,719 unless rates come down. So no net tax increase period ever, 37 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,159 not for any reason, ever whatever. 38 00:02:39,599 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: Read my lips right that he signed the pledge. 39 00:02:43,479 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: When he ran for president, and he said read my lips. Actually, 40 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,560 what Bush said was stronger than read my lips. The 41 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:56,240 whole section of that speech was the I know what's 42 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,319 going to happen that the Democrats will come to me 43 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,719 and they'll ask for a tax increase, and I will 44 00:03:00,759 --> 00:03:04,240 say no. They'll come back and ask again for a 45 00:03:04,319 --> 00:03:08,000 tax increase, and I will say no. And they'll come 46 00:03:08,039 --> 00:03:12,199 again the third time, and I will say, read my lips, 47 00:03:12,759 --> 00:03:17,840 no new taxes, which is a much stronger statement, because 48 00:03:17,879 --> 00:03:21,919 he outlined exactly what the Democrats did, and then forgot 49 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,000 to mention that he folded on the third time they asked. 50 00:03:27,719 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: We've seen a lot of that folding, of course, over 51 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,479 the last forty years, but we've also seen, thanks to 52 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:39,000 the pledge, a lot of conservatives at least. And every 53 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,919 once in a while you'll get a well, I guess 54 00:03:41,919 --> 00:03:44,560 I should ask that have you ever gotten a Democrat? 55 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,319 I think you have over the years, have you not? 56 00:03:47,159 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 2: Yes. The first year we put it out, nineteen eighty six, 57 00:03:53,360 --> 00:04:03,560 I had two senators and five Democrats. And when push 58 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:10,520 then in nineteen ninety four, these two Democratic senators and 59 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:17,079 one from Alabama went from Colorado, and five Democratic congressmen. 60 00:04:18,199 --> 00:04:21,600 After the nineteen ninety three election, which happened to be 61 00:04:21,639 --> 00:04:26,680 the first election when ninety six percent of Republicans signed 62 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,360 the pledge never to raise taxes incumbents. The first time 63 00:04:30,399 --> 00:04:33,800 we did it, we had twenty Senators and one hundred congressman. 64 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:35,199 So it was a good number, I mean, you know, 65 00:04:35,199 --> 00:04:39,360 a strong support. Most issues couldn't get that many guys 66 00:04:39,399 --> 00:04:42,959 to sign on. But when we went with ninety six 67 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,560 percent of Republicans in the House and Senate, that was 68 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:51,439 the year Republicans won the House and the Senate. And 69 00:04:52,079 --> 00:04:56,720 since that date nineteen ninety four, the Republicans have won 70 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:03,639 the House and the Senate eighteen years, the Democrats for six, 71 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:10,079 and it was split fifty to fifty six years before 72 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,920 that year when the Republicans said we are not raising 73 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,040 taxes ever, ever, and again this was everybody, This is 74 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:23,800 John mcain, this is you know, conservatives, moderates. Everybody said, 75 00:05:23,959 --> 00:05:27,399 you know, we're not raising taxes. Some moderates may not 76 00:05:27,439 --> 00:05:30,920 have been for big tax cuts, but they were against 77 00:05:30,959 --> 00:05:36,000 any tax increase. And for the sixty two years before 78 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,560 nineteen ninety four, nineteen thirty two till nineteen ninety four, 79 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:45,079 from FDR coming in to Gingrich coming in in that 80 00:05:45,199 --> 00:05:50,279 sixty two years, Republicans won the Congress twice, yes twice. 81 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,240 That we had a one party state for sixty two years. 82 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,839 I'm sorry, but Eisenhower being president, anything that they wanted 83 00:05:58,879 --> 00:06:02,079 that he vetoed, they just wait till we moved. And 84 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,560 the same thing with Nixon, and frankly, the same thing 85 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,800 with Reagan. They just said, we'll wait till you're gone, 86 00:06:07,879 --> 00:06:13,399 because we own Congress always and forever, and Congress runs 87 00:06:13,399 --> 00:06:15,839 the country. They passed the laws, they raised the taxes, 88 00:06:15,959 --> 00:06:21,759 they approved Supreme Court justices. Presidents have scandals and start wars, 89 00:06:22,439 --> 00:06:24,000 but that's all they get to do, and then they 90 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,800 can detail things. They can slow stuff down, which is 91 00:06:26,879 --> 00:06:32,480 very important, but it's a limited tool. We didn't have 92 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:38,360 the ability to do anything by Republicans alone. We had 93 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,240 to have Democrat support. Whereas Democrats when they did the 94 00:06:42,319 --> 00:06:46,319 New Deal had eighty percent House and Senate, so they 95 00:06:46,399 --> 00:06:48,879 just bram rotted it. When they did the Great Society, 96 00:06:48,879 --> 00:06:54,000 it was seventy percent House and Senates, and so that 97 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,199 really was a shift. And if you look at a 98 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,920 chart that Americans for Tax Reformed put out, you see 99 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,480 this sea of blue for sixty two years, and then 100 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,800 you know mostly red three times as often red Congress 101 00:07:11,959 --> 00:07:17,920 as blue eighteen versus six years. That changed the country. 102 00:07:18,279 --> 00:07:21,040 But it also meant the Democrats who used to say 103 00:07:21,959 --> 00:07:24,560 keep the president weak because sometimes we have a scandal 104 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,680 that the Republicans get the presidency, but we know we 105 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,720 own Congress. So they stuffed all the power in Congress. 106 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,160 Now they're in a panic because they don't own Congress 107 00:07:33,199 --> 00:07:35,399 all the time. Matter of fact, they own it less 108 00:07:35,399 --> 00:07:38,399 often than the Republicans do. So they tried to stick 109 00:07:38,439 --> 00:07:43,839 the power in Supreme Court. Well, oops, they want that 110 00:07:43,959 --> 00:07:47,480 one too. Then they went in for the bureaucracy. And 111 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,399 although they've been doing that one for a long time. 112 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,920 Stick the power in the bureaucracy. The president can do 113 00:07:52,959 --> 00:08:00,120 what he wants. But if independent bureaucracies fcc icc irs 114 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,199 can act on their own, they can new to the presidency. 115 00:08:03,279 --> 00:08:05,680 Or if the president tries to disagree with a bureaucrat, 116 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,360 andy not elect the bureaucrat. This town acts as if 117 00:08:08,399 --> 00:08:13,319 he'd been cheating, if he was becoming a king, because 118 00:08:13,319 --> 00:08:17,800 he wanted to execut to run executive power. And now 119 00:08:18,319 --> 00:08:22,439 the Democrats without they owned the presidents. You know, they 120 00:08:22,439 --> 00:08:25,279 win the presidency fifty to fifty. We've been doing that 121 00:08:25,319 --> 00:08:32,759 since Eisenhower. But the Congress is more Republican. The Supreme 122 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,480 Court does not have the thumb on the scale for 123 00:08:35,519 --> 00:08:42,759 the Democrats, and the bureaucracy is being changed in that 124 00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:47,519 the Supreme Court is ruled that, you know, bureaucrats can't 125 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,639 make decisions, only Congress and the President can, which would 126 00:08:51,759 --> 00:08:54,399 please the Democrats find when they own the Congress all 127 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,519 the time, but they're not crazy about having decisions go 128 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,120 to Congress now. No. 129 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,759 Speaker 1: Exactly, in fact, Congress is you know, on both sides, 130 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,559 one could argue that, you know, and this is what 131 00:09:05,639 --> 00:09:09,279 the shutdown really gets down to, is that both sides 132 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:14,840 have abdicated its first branch, main priority, and that is 133 00:09:14,919 --> 00:09:18,279 first and foremost to put together a budget and hopefully 134 00:09:18,279 --> 00:09:21,000 a budget that doesn't continue to sock it to the 135 00:09:21,039 --> 00:09:25,159 American taxpayer. If I could use the turning of phrase 136 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,559 from Richard Milhouse Nixon on laugh In so many years 137 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,120 ago when he said sock it to me, that's exactly 138 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,440 what Democrats have done for a long time. So basically 139 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,960 what we've had, what we had in this country for 140 00:09:38,039 --> 00:09:42,840 sixty plus years was the state of California in Congress. 141 00:09:43,039 --> 00:09:47,559 Although I would hasten to say the Democrats of yr 142 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:53,559 would not recognize a tip O'Neill would not much recognize 143 00:09:54,639 --> 00:09:57,240 a Democrat of twenty twenty five. 144 00:09:57,279 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 2: Do you agree, yes on the cultural issues, but you 145 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,320 can know the economic issues and even to a large 146 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,039 extent on the foreign policy issues. That Democrats had some 147 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,480 great weaknesses during the Cold War, but they at least 148 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,320 know which side they were theoretically on. Maybe half of 149 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:17,120 them did anyway. 150 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing to think how much has really changed 151 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,120 on that front. So that brings us to the modern 152 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,399 day and why your battle forty years later continues to 153 00:10:30,399 --> 00:10:33,519 be such an important battle, And that is to make 154 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:38,720 sure with a country with a thirty seven plus trillion 155 00:10:39,159 --> 00:10:48,919 dollar debt annual trillions of dollars in deficits, that Congress 156 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,759 get this thing under control, because that's who has the 157 00:10:52,879 --> 00:10:55,600 power to do it. So with all of that said, 158 00:10:55,639 --> 00:10:58,279 what do you think of the longest shutdown in American 159 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,360 history that finally this week ended. 160 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 2: It was very interesting because there were different reasons why 161 00:11:08,759 --> 00:11:12,320 different players did what they did, whereas a few years 162 00:11:12,399 --> 00:11:20,200 ago they played it differently. And the Schumer, Senator Schumer 163 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,559 of New York, the Senate leader for the Democrats, a 164 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:30,480 wild liberal but not part of the new socialist wing 165 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,559 of the Democratic Party. 166 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: Mom Donnie wing. 167 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,879 Speaker 2: The Madonni Win, the AOC wing, the Bernie Sanders wing, 168 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:45,159 and and he's a realist. He realizes you don't run 169 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:50,759 Bolsheviks for the Senate in you know, British states. You 170 00:11:50,799 --> 00:11:55,840 can do that in Vermont, but not other places. And 171 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:01,840 so he said seven months ago to the Democrats, do 172 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,519 the continuing resolution the Republicans are suggesting, which takes it 173 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:10,039 out seven at the time, I think it was seven months, 174 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,159 because if you don't, we will be response. If we don't, 175 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,879 we will be responsible for shutting the government down. Because 176 00:12:18,879 --> 00:12:23,279 the Republicans had put together budgets and the Democrats were stalling, 177 00:12:24,039 --> 00:12:28,159 you know, participating and doing a budget for the Defense 178 00:12:28,159 --> 00:12:30,879 Department and the act Department, the education departments on the 179 00:12:30,919 --> 00:12:35,639 way one normally did them before nineteen ninety four, back 180 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,639 when the Democrats had the majorities in the House and Senate. 181 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,080 They always did regular order, and sometimes the Republicans in 182 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,000 the committee might make a good argument or have a 183 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,360 bunch of Democrats on their side, and so some Republican 184 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,840 thing of interest would get into the budget that they 185 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,240 weren't completely shut out, but it was rare and if 186 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,559 they if the party really cared it wasn't going to happen. 187 00:12:59,399 --> 00:13:03,919 So since ninety four, the Democrats have said, you know, 188 00:13:04,039 --> 00:13:06,679 we really want just put the whole budget in one 189 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,679 big pile. We're not going to do regular order, and 190 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,200 we will have a list of things that we insist 191 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,279 being that pile, and that that basically pay us for 192 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:22,240 all of our political allies. And then the budget will 193 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,960 be written by a small committee of the head of 194 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,039 the Democratic Party the head of the Republican Party in 195 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,559 the House in the Senate, not by big committees and 196 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:35,679 so on. And this will may give the Democrats half 197 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:39,559 the power, even though they don't have either house. And 198 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,279 that's why we went away from regular order. The Democrats 199 00:13:42,279 --> 00:13:49,159 didn't want it. It didn't fit their interests. And so 200 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,600 he was saying, you know, now, we can't do this. 201 00:13:51,639 --> 00:13:56,159 We can't give the Republicans control over writing the budget. 202 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:02,480 And he convinced his team the Democrats crazy ones too, Okay, 203 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,360 we'll kick the can down seven months. By the time, 204 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,240 they'd had seven months of Trump being on three of 205 00:14:11,279 --> 00:14:15,480 the seven headlines in the Washington Post every day day 206 00:14:15,519 --> 00:14:17,919 after day, Trump does this, Trump does that, Trump does this, 207 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:26,120 and uh, making all sorts of decisions and executive orders 208 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,840 and the Republicans in Congress doing different things. They were 209 00:14:29,919 --> 00:14:33,600 just frustrated. They felt beat up, they felt ignored, they 210 00:14:33,639 --> 00:14:39,000 felt unloved. And my sense is it was a little 211 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,360 bit like that second of the last scene in Animal 212 00:14:42,399 --> 00:14:48,440 House where they're about to be thrown The misbehaving black 213 00:14:48,519 --> 00:14:51,879 boys have all been expelled from school and they're going 214 00:14:51,879 --> 00:14:55,120 to close down their fraternity, and someone comes up and says, 215 00:14:55,519 --> 00:14:58,120 you know, this is the time to do something truly 216 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:05,279 stupid and futile. Yes, and all the guys are yeah, 217 00:15:05,399 --> 00:15:07,879 So that's us, And they run outside and they go 218 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,279 do something stupid that didn't keep them from getting expelled, 219 00:15:11,279 --> 00:15:14,919 didn't keep the fraternity from being shut down, but it 220 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:16,080 made them feel good. 221 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: The John who played the John Belushi role, the Blueto role, 222 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:26,080 who said was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, 223 00:15:26,279 --> 00:15:28,399 It's the same kind of logic, right, I. 224 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,559 Speaker 2: Think that was Bernie and AOC. Yeah, we've got to 225 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,840 do this. It's important. Will it work? It's important. We 226 00:15:35,919 --> 00:15:38,240 have to do this. Will it work? It's important. We 227 00:15:38,279 --> 00:15:41,639 have to do this. Our base wants to see us fighting. 228 00:15:42,919 --> 00:15:46,320 Now sitting in a committee and getting out voted doesn't 229 00:15:46,399 --> 00:15:49,840 qualify as being seen as fighting. No, that's the best 230 00:15:49,879 --> 00:15:54,120 you can do with inside a constitutional order. So they said, no, 231 00:15:54,159 --> 00:15:59,120 we're going to close the government down. And Schumer, who 232 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:01,840 he's the role of the guy who was standing in 233 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,000 front of the jail trying to get the lynch mob 234 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,080 from doing the guy who's in the jail says, don't 235 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,519 do this, don't do this, it's wrong. At some point goes, oh, hell, 236 00:16:10,559 --> 00:16:13,399 I'm their leader, and he turns around and he joins 237 00:16:13,399 --> 00:16:16,240 the lynch mob and he starts acting like he was 238 00:16:16,279 --> 00:16:18,279 Bernie Sanders. We're going to do this. We're going to 239 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,879 do that. It's going to work. If they had a plan, 240 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,320 it is unclear what it was. I think they were 241 00:16:25,399 --> 00:16:29,519 hoping that the press would say the Republicans closed the 242 00:16:29,559 --> 00:16:32,840 government down, even though the Democrats clearly had and they 243 00:16:32,879 --> 00:16:35,519 couldn't even get the Washington Post a life for them 244 00:16:35,519 --> 00:16:38,759 on that sort of thing. So that didn't work. And 245 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:45,080 their demands were massive new spending when everybody had been 246 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,000 talking about the deficit. Even the Democrats were you can't 247 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,840 cut taxes, there's a deficit, but we can spend one 248 00:16:51,879 --> 00:16:58,120 point five trillion dollars more So, they crashed and burned. 249 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,799 We ate Democrats. Eventually, there were always some Democrats voting 250 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:07,759 with the Republicans, so it was never just a partisan effort. 251 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,519 The Republicans kept saying every day that the Republicans would 252 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:16,079 make the Democrats in the Senate vote against opening government 253 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,920 and then against paying the troops, and then against paying 254 00:17:19,279 --> 00:17:23,559 the FAA air traffic controls. I mean, they're Democrats running 255 00:17:23,559 --> 00:17:28,279 for Senate with real pretty wacky votes out there in 256 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:33,359 front of them. So you voted against paying veterans benefits, 257 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,240 against paying you know. I mean, just on and on 258 00:17:36,279 --> 00:17:41,640 and on, and they got to the end and they 259 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:47,079 gave up. They lost. They're not even pretending that they 260 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,920 won something. They didn't get any any of the big 261 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,920 things that they wanted, if they got little things here 262 00:17:53,000 --> 00:18:00,200 or there. The America, the federal workers who came back 263 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,039 back got paid for their time, which always happens. But 264 00:18:04,599 --> 00:18:07,480 we let the Democrats think it was a concession because 265 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:13,920 made them feel good, but it wasn't. So we're now 266 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,480 pivoting and the big question is what was this about? 267 00:18:18,559 --> 00:18:21,599 And the answer is it was all about the Democrats 268 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,960 needing four or five hundred billion dollars to subsidize the 269 00:18:26,039 --> 00:18:31,880 failure of Obamacare. Obamacare, we painfully remember we were told 270 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,319 you could keep your doctor. That was a lie. Even 271 00:18:34,319 --> 00:18:37,279 the Washington Post called it the biggest lie of the year. 272 00:18:37,799 --> 00:18:41,799 The Washington Post printed that after the bill passed. We 273 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,279 didn't talk about it before the bill passed. 274 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,559 Speaker 1: That's the courage of the Washington Post right there, Exhibit A. 275 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 2: They will tell the truth once once right, a Republican 276 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,880 scandal becomes the guy's middle name. A Democratic scandal is 277 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:08,799 mentioned once on page be thirty seven. But so now 278 00:19:08,799 --> 00:19:11,240 we have a discussion where the Republicans are saying, in 279 00:19:11,279 --> 00:19:14,240 the next tax bill, we want to expand health savings 280 00:19:14,279 --> 00:19:17,079 accounts so that every American can have a health savings account, 281 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:22,519 which allows you an off ramp from Obamacare. And seventy 282 00:19:22,519 --> 00:19:27,759 million people have a health savings account w It's like 283 00:19:27,759 --> 00:19:30,000 an IRA or four O n K, but for health care. 284 00:19:30,319 --> 00:19:32,480 You put in some money or the company may put 285 00:19:32,519 --> 00:19:34,799 in all the money. But then you decide how to 286 00:19:34,839 --> 00:19:37,440 spend it, and it gives you control on what you 287 00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:41,039 buy and don't buy. And if you don't use it, 288 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,880 you get to save it and it accumulates for future 289 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:49,160 needs or crisis or something. They're very great project lines. 290 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,920 And then the Republicans have been wanting to increase health 291 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,519 savings accounts, but the Democrats put in rules to make 292 00:19:58,559 --> 00:20:01,279 it difficult to expand them. Those are the things that 293 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,599 will be dismantling in the spring and opening up for 294 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,160 people to view. And the deeds will say you should 295 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,880 have subsidized, you should have passed the subsidies, and the 296 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,160 answer to that is that included people who make as 297 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,480 much as five hundred thousand dollars a year. We're getting 298 00:20:18,519 --> 00:20:22,079 some of these subsidies. Many of those subsidies went straight 299 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:28,200 to the insurance companies and no person ever you made 300 00:20:28,279 --> 00:20:31,039 use of them, never put in a claim at all 301 00:20:31,279 --> 00:20:34,319 at all. I mean millions of people didn't, which makes 302 00:20:34,319 --> 00:20:38,480 you wonder whether the insurance companies just signed up people 303 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,039 and they didn't even know maybe that they had the healthcare. 304 00:20:42,519 --> 00:20:44,839 That's one of the things they're looking at now. How 305 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,680 could you possibly have had this huge group of millions 306 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:53,079 of people who supposedly bought healthcare for free. Thank you 307 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,799 to Obamacare and taxpayers. 308 00:20:56,839 --> 00:21:04,319 Speaker 3: Actually should social media influencers register like lobbyists. The watched 309 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,160 Out on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every Day, 310 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,240 Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy 311 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,640 and how it affects your wallet. Some in Congress are 312 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:18,000 proposing that paid social media influencers publicly disclose who they represent, 313 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,839 especially if they're being paid by foreign countries for their causes. 314 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,039 Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, 315 00:21:24,039 --> 00:21:26,480 it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the watch 316 00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:29,039 Dot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, 317 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,119 Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 318 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: Well, that's one of the Yeah, that's one of the 319 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,160 biggest problems with Obamacare has been you know for the 320 00:21:39,279 --> 00:21:45,720 last what fifteen years now, and that is insurance companies, 321 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,759 many of them have gotten rich and the taxpayer has 322 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:54,079 again to turn the phrase I turned at the beginning 323 00:21:54,079 --> 00:21:58,200 of our conversation, has gotten screwed over and over again. 324 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,079 That's what you have to be watching out for. Coming up. 325 00:22:02,279 --> 00:22:07,599 Our guest today is Grover Norquist, President Americans for Tax Reform, 326 00:22:08,279 --> 00:22:12,960 and so I guess if there was any lesson hopefully 327 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:18,480 learned by at least some people in this great Republic 328 00:22:18,519 --> 00:22:23,519 of ours, is that Obamacare isn't workable, and quite frankly, 329 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,799 Grover isn't that what Democrats wanted it to be all 330 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:30,000 the time, you know, from the beginning, And didn't Obama 331 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,160 even say that they wanted it to implode so that 332 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:38,880 they could go full on socialized healthcare, government funded, government 333 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:44,200 paid for health care for everyone, which of course would 334 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,279 be even a greater disaster. 335 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 2: Yes, they believed when they passed Obamacare, because they had 336 00:22:51,799 --> 00:22:55,200 sixty votes in the Senate briefly, that they were now 337 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,519 invincible and that their victory with Obama and the House, 338 00:22:59,559 --> 00:23:03,720 and it meant that it was back to FDR days. 339 00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:08,440 All they had to do was do healthcare, lock everyone 340 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,319 into government control of healthcare, and then they would in 341 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,200 the same way that they bought a great number of 342 00:23:14,279 --> 00:23:18,599 votes with welfare, that they would do the same thing 343 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,839 with healthcare. So they were going to be in power. 344 00:23:21,279 --> 00:23:24,160 And as this failed, and you're quite right, they talked 345 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,359 openly about the course it's going to fail, and when 346 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,839 it failed, they kept, oh my goodness, it's failed. Kind 347 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:38,279 of like the teachers union lobby the public. Our teachers 348 00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:41,759 are not teaching kids how to read by fourth grade, 349 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,400 and they're not graduating, and their way behind the Japanese 350 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:50,000 and the Koreans and many other nations. You know what 351 00:23:50,039 --> 00:23:52,039 we need to do. Give more money to the same 352 00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:55,200 people with the same project and the same rules as before, 353 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,960 and that'll fix it. So the worst the public schools, 354 00:24:00,279 --> 00:24:02,480 the more they need to make, the more they should 355 00:24:02,519 --> 00:24:05,440 have more money because this will fix it. Of course 356 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,759 that's nonsense. But they would do the same thing with Obamaca. 357 00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:11,039 They would announce as the British to I mean, you 358 00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:14,000 listen to the politics of Britain. Would everything's go wrong 359 00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:17,279 and they start continuing to ration care and so on, 360 00:24:17,759 --> 00:24:21,640 Send more money, don't fix the problem, Just keep the 361 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:27,160 present government monopoly in place and raise everyone's. 362 00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:32,319 Speaker 1: Pay right, Yeah, over and over again. And so if 363 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:38,279 the definition of insanity is failing over and over again 364 00:24:38,759 --> 00:24:43,720 and continuing on that path, we certainly have had that 365 00:24:43,799 --> 00:24:49,480 in Obamacare. You talk to your organization, talks to members 366 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,400 of Congress on a daily basis. You got through this 367 00:24:54,519 --> 00:24:58,480 fight with republic Well, first of all, are you surprised 368 00:24:58,519 --> 00:25:01,359 that you didn't have some case from Republicans in this 369 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:07,000 long battle? Because while Americans, I think knew who shut 370 00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:11,240 down this government, there was a lot of noise and 371 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:17,400 a very dishonest corporate media press in many circles that 372 00:25:17,559 --> 00:25:23,640 kept trying to make this a Republican thing when obviously 373 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,839 it was not. Were you surprised that there was backbone 374 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,559 and unity in all of this. 375 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, Every once in a while, some of my friends 376 00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:36,240 on the right go, oh, the Republicans failed to do 377 00:25:36,279 --> 00:25:39,839 this or refused to do this. Meaning three people in 378 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,079 the House and two people or two people in the 379 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,039 Senate didn't vote with the rest of the party. Okay, 380 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,480 that's not the Republicans failing to do something. When John 381 00:25:51,599 --> 00:25:55,960 McCain stabbed us all in the back, having promised that 382 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,920 very day, he'd promised that he would be voting for 383 00:25:59,279 --> 00:26:02,960 the reform of Obamacare back in the first Trump turn, 384 00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:09,319 and he was mad about something and decided to vote 385 00:26:09,599 --> 00:26:14,960 no on the most important reform of entitlements ever in history, 386 00:26:15,839 --> 00:26:20,240 and something that he was born ideologically a liberal. He 387 00:26:20,319 --> 00:26:28,680 was just a little self centered, and. 388 00:26:27,039 --> 00:26:27,839 Speaker 1: So he votes no. 389 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 2: Right, That wasn't the Republicans losing. That was John McCain 390 00:26:32,279 --> 00:26:35,440 deciding to do something that was in his personal interest. 391 00:26:35,559 --> 00:26:37,759 He thought, I'm not sure I want to go down 392 00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:43,559 in history as having that on my tombstone. Refused to 393 00:26:43,559 --> 00:26:48,599 reform government spending because he actually was more often than 394 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,480 not in favor of reducing government spending. He just literally 395 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:52,880 had peaque. But if you have a one or two 396 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,279 vote majority and you need fifty votes or two un 397 00:26:57,319 --> 00:27:02,160 and eighteen in the House, somebody's all he's cranky about something. 398 00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:06,519 And in the House side you get every once in 399 00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:09,480 a while, somebody's not voting with you to go. I 400 00:27:09,559 --> 00:27:11,599 just listened to that person explain it. I have no 401 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,920 idea what they're talking about. They weren't being liberals in 402 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,359 most cases. As a matter of fact, that the people 403 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,960 who killed the earliest tax reform that Trump had were 404 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:28,359 about thirty conservatives who didn't understand that with the reconciliation package, 405 00:27:28,599 --> 00:27:31,400 you can't change laws. You can only change budget numbers. 406 00:27:31,759 --> 00:27:35,119 And they said, we're not doing this until it includes 407 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,880 abolishing Obamacare, which would require changing laws, which you can't 408 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,519 do because the law is written to say you can 409 00:27:43,559 --> 00:27:47,720 do a reconciliation package on budget numbers, not repeal the 410 00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:51,519 right to work law, not pology, and on policy. And 411 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,319 we had thirty people who got elected to Congress who 412 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,720 didn't understand that, and they just shouted louder and louder. 413 00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,519 I'm going to hold my breath until I turned blue. 414 00:27:59,559 --> 00:28:02,359 And if you don't do this, I can call you names. 415 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,680 And I mean these are adults that did this, and 416 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,839 it's slowed the whole thing down months. It really cost 417 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,160 the Trump administration of the Republican Party a lot. There's thirty, 418 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,960 like thirty people. Now that number is now down to 419 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,680 three or four people who don't get it at all. 420 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,920 And it really you do have the people who are. 421 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,720 They wake up and they go I could vote with 422 00:28:28,839 --> 00:28:32,480 the rest of the party, or I could vote no 423 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,599 and be on TV tonight. What we have seemed to 424 00:28:37,599 --> 00:28:40,680 have mastered is the following. There are ten people who 425 00:28:40,759 --> 00:28:46,119 can't live, can't breathe can't live without breathing or being 426 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,440 on Fox. You have to do breathing and being on 427 00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:52,680 Fox to be technically alive in their mind. And they 428 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,720 will for the ten to fifteen days before the vote, 429 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,720 tell everyone I'm a hard no. So they get on 430 00:28:59,759 --> 00:29:03,200 TV a lot and then they vote yes. Okay, I 431 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:03,759 can live with that. 432 00:29:05,279 --> 00:29:07,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, all of this is all of this 433 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,519 is political theater. Anyway. The shutdown, certainly for the Democrats, 434 00:29:11,599 --> 00:29:16,880 was all about political theater. They try first and foremost. 435 00:29:17,519 --> 00:29:23,319 We know that their first impulse the Democrats in Congress, 436 00:29:24,079 --> 00:29:28,160 the Democrat Party in general, is to do whatever they 437 00:29:28,279 --> 00:29:33,640 can to diminish Trump and the administration. They've learned nothing 438 00:29:33,799 --> 00:29:38,640 from the first Trump administration. They're doing the same, and 439 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:44,079 one could argue at a more intense pace, with greater 440 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:49,799 insanity than they did even in the first term. But 441 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,240 when we talk about Obamacare moving forward, that was the 442 00:29:54,359 --> 00:29:57,799 hill that they, the Democrats chose to die on. They're 443 00:29:57,839 --> 00:30:02,400 going to be screaming about bringing back and this is 444 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,359 what people don't fully understand. And I know you folks 445 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,359 have explained it very well over the last several weeks, 446 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,000 in particular, that what they were fighting for was a 447 00:30:13,079 --> 00:30:18,079 half trillion dollars for an extension that should never have 448 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,319 been to begin with, but it was. It was delivered 449 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:28,039 because there was a so called COVID pandemic emergency. We 450 00:30:28,119 --> 00:30:33,359 are well beyond COVID and that emergency, and yet the 451 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,640 hits kept up, kept on coming, and the Democrats wanted 452 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,359 it to go on indefinitely. And so if Americans really 453 00:30:40,359 --> 00:30:43,240 fully understood that, I think there would be a much 454 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:48,160 different sense on all of this ultimately, but they're going 455 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,960 to want this eventually, the Democrats, and that means that 456 00:30:52,039 --> 00:30:54,599 either they're going to make they're going to try to 457 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:59,480 make Republicans' lives a living hell by trying to along 458 00:30:59,519 --> 00:31:03,359 with their bliss media friends telling everybody, Oh, the Republicans 459 00:31:03,799 --> 00:31:08,039 they want to take health insurance away from the destitute 460 00:31:08,079 --> 00:31:10,799 and the poor, and that is absolutely not the case. 461 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:16,759 So everything their messaging I see moving forward is all 462 00:31:16,839 --> 00:31:22,039 on that. Are you concerned that eventually, you know, there's 463 00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:23,759 going to be a vote and there will be those 464 00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:26,640 few Republicans who joined the Democrats. 465 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 2: No, because it won't work. One that you have the 466 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:35,079 president with the veto, and the Republicans have learned how 467 00:31:35,119 --> 00:31:39,599 to make this case and they feel comfortable doing that. 468 00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:43,160 All during the shutdown, there was an effort by the 469 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,480 press to find the one or two Republican senators or 470 00:31:48,519 --> 00:31:51,960 one or two Congressmen that were having impure thoughts on 471 00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:55,519 the idea of a compromise with the Democrats on given 472 00:31:55,559 --> 00:31:59,720 the massive spending increases, and each time they sort of 473 00:31:59,799 --> 00:32:03,400 turn into well, somebody had a microphone in front of 474 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,160 them and they said, well, if you did this, this 475 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,559 and this, then maybe we could do the other. And 476 00:32:08,599 --> 00:32:11,640 their list of things that they thought would be necessary 477 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,559 to accomplish the Democrats would never agree to. So it 478 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,359 wasn't a fold, it was an and which is why 479 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:24,039 I urged all Republican conversations not to discuss any quid 480 00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:29,559 pro quo, because the establishment press would mention your willingness 481 00:32:29,839 --> 00:32:33,839 to increase spending by hundreds of millions of dollars and 482 00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:38,359 never mentioned some terribly wonderful thing that you could imagine, 483 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,880 but the Democrats would never agree to, and so the 484 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,200 press would simply read Republican endorse's acts. That happened once 485 00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:51,599 or twice, but interestingly very few times compared to the 486 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,240 earlier fight with Obama on are we going to raise 487 00:32:55,319 --> 00:33:03,599 taxes to deal with the the Democrats were desperately trying 488 00:33:03,599 --> 00:33:06,799 to raise taxes in the Big budget deal, and eventually 489 00:33:07,359 --> 00:33:09,359 we had everybody to take the pledge, and so they 490 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,799 refused to, and we got all spending cuts they wanted. 491 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:21,000 Because I talked directly to Senator Kerry of Massachusetts, he 492 00:33:21,119 --> 00:33:23,880 ran into me on the in the in the Capitol 493 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,839 building and said, go over Grover, your, your wife and mine. 494 00:33:26,839 --> 00:33:28,799 I should have tea. Yes, that's fine. What do you want? 495 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,720 And he said, well, I've got this, you know. Could 496 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,440 you talk to the Republicans. All we need is for 497 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,079 them to agree to a one point four trillion dollar 498 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,519 tax increase, and said, I thought we were trying to 499 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,319 fill a one point two trillion dollar gap. Oh yes, 500 00:33:42,319 --> 00:33:45,799 but the President needs four hundred billion dollars in higher 501 00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:53,200 spending in our deficit reduction package. And I'm trying not 502 00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:55,640 to laugh now, he said, and there is this two 503 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,240 hundred billion we can all agree on cutting. That's why 504 00:33:58,279 --> 00:34:02,880 it's we get to point for trillion and higher taxes. 505 00:34:03,319 --> 00:34:05,400 And I was so taken aback at the idea that 506 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,360 he expected me to go convince the Republicans to vote 507 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,039 for a tax increase that I forgot to ask tell 508 00:34:11,079 --> 00:34:13,840 me about this two hundred billion. I know nothing about 509 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,519 this bipartisan consensus on saying that two hundred billion does 510 00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:21,639 Why don't we do that now? First? But eventually we 511 00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:24,559 went we got this a quester and we got all 512 00:34:24,559 --> 00:34:29,119 spending cuts, no tax increase at all, because the party 513 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:30,440 held together. 514 00:34:31,039 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: Wait, sitting Democrat, I have to ask you this, did 515 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,440 Carrie fall down? Did he know who he was talking to? 516 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:42,320 You've been at this thing for a long time, You've 517 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,679 had the pledge out as we talked about for forty years. 518 00:34:46,079 --> 00:34:48,800 This is not Why would he go up to Grover 519 00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:52,679 nor Quist and say, hey, you got to talk to 520 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:59,039 Republicans about doing everything opposite of what you've asked them 521 00:34:59,039 --> 00:35:00,880 to do over the last forty years. 522 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,639 Speaker 2: I don't know. We're both from Massachusetts, Sorr. I tried 523 00:35:03,639 --> 00:35:05,320 to play on that, but I think that's a rather 524 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,000 than read myself because when I was in my twenties, 525 00:35:09,039 --> 00:35:12,639 I immigrated to the United States from Massachusetts. That was 526 00:35:12,679 --> 00:35:15,960 really back in my early days. 527 00:35:16,159 --> 00:35:18,119 Speaker 1: A lot of people say that now when they're from 528 00:35:18,119 --> 00:35:23,480 Illinois and they leave that part of the Midwest. Yes, hey, 529 00:35:24,559 --> 00:35:27,280 we're coming to the end of our journey. And before 530 00:35:28,079 --> 00:35:30,519 we say a do I did want to ask you 531 00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:35,960 now that this shutdown nonsense is over. Now we're getting 532 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:42,000 ready to get into twenty twenty six. Obviously it's a 533 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,440 big year for politics. It's the midterms. We're going to 534 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,960 see what Americans think about it all. But one thing 535 00:35:47,039 --> 00:35:51,679 is for sure, that's when the big beautiful bill and 536 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:58,039 all of its tax reductions come into play. I'm curious 537 00:35:58,679 --> 00:36:02,679 what that will mean as we move closer and closer 538 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,239 to the mid terms. November twenty twenty six, What do 539 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,000 you think a. 540 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,760 Speaker 2: Couple of things. I think that we're already seeing significant 541 00:36:12,199 --> 00:36:15,719 investments being announced in Americans for tax reform. We have 542 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,559 good news from the big beautiful bill. We did this 543 00:36:19,599 --> 00:36:23,599 for the first Trump tax cut, and just comb the 544 00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:30,000 headlines of local papers of people expanding the number of 545 00:36:30,039 --> 00:36:32,440 folks that they hired in a restaurant, or putting new 546 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:38,119 investments in one just got new locally made furniture. Because 547 00:36:38,199 --> 00:36:42,840 of the faster depreciation schedules that now are available to everybody, 548 00:36:44,159 --> 00:36:48,599 we're seeing an increase an investment there. There's a level 549 00:36:48,599 --> 00:36:53,280 of uncertainty that flows. So the President used tariffs as 550 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,960 a way to get other countries to negotiate with other 551 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,599 countries to do a better deal of how they treated 552 00:36:59,679 --> 00:37:04,480 us and trade. Well, that was helpful, but during it 553 00:37:04,519 --> 00:37:06,039 there would be this. The President was saying, to have 554 00:37:06,039 --> 00:37:09,159 one hundred percent tacks on Canada or Mexico or something. 555 00:37:09,559 --> 00:37:11,679 But you can imagine what that does to the stock 556 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,599 market and to somebody's ability to make an investment or 557 00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:18,360 make a decision, because who knows what the price of 558 00:37:18,599 --> 00:37:22,039 coffee is going to be next week. If tariffs are 559 00:37:22,039 --> 00:37:25,360 in and out. Two things are happening. The presidents said look, 560 00:37:25,599 --> 00:37:27,559 those things that come in that really don't compete with 561 00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:31,039 ourgn company's coffee and a lot of fruit during certain 562 00:37:31,079 --> 00:37:34,280 periods of the year, We're not going to tariffs on that, okay. 563 00:37:34,519 --> 00:37:38,599 So that gives you some certitude, and the Supreme Court's 564 00:37:38,639 --> 00:37:41,719 going to rule that some of what the President did 565 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,599 on tariffs, I would assume that where there was a 566 00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:52,360 federal law that Reagan used to selectively tariff Japanese products 567 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:58,480 in the nineteen eighties because they were cheating and stealing 568 00:37:58,519 --> 00:38:02,679 some of our intellectual property and things like that, and 569 00:38:03,199 --> 00:38:05,159 it was temporary and you had to make the case 570 00:38:05,199 --> 00:38:08,119 for it, I think those will stand, but some of 571 00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:12,159 the others will be frozen or not allowed to exist. 572 00:38:12,679 --> 00:38:16,360 So we should in two months know exactly what tariffs 573 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,159 are going to look like for the next set of years, 574 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:25,559 and that will allow everybody to feel much more comfortable 575 00:38:25,639 --> 00:38:29,519 about their supply chains, but also about what they do 576 00:38:29,559 --> 00:38:35,280 and don't invest in, because the uncertainty of tariffs could 577 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,840 go one way or the other while there's negotiation going on. 578 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,800 Will be reduced, not eliminated. I don't guess it never 579 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:47,800 complete limit, but it's reduced, and the good the reduction 580 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:53,480 in spending that was otherwise going to happen will take place. 581 00:38:54,079 --> 00:38:57,519 But there's one others that some of your listeners may 582 00:38:57,519 --> 00:39:00,400 not be aware of. It's a project the president tried 583 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,320 to do in his first term, but his Secretary of 584 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,800 Treasury got slow walked by his staff, and that is 585 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,480 to end capital gains taxes on inflation. So when you 586 00:39:13,559 --> 00:39:17,480 sell your house, you go, oh, my goodness, I sold 587 00:39:17,519 --> 00:39:20,039 my house for one hundred thousand dollars more than I 588 00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:24,480 paid for it. Yeah, but half of that was Biden's inflation, okay, 589 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,440 and half of its real game. So you would take 590 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,360 out of what you paid capital gains on the inflation 591 00:39:32,519 --> 00:39:34,599 that took place for as long as you held your 592 00:39:34,599 --> 00:39:37,559 house from when you bought it, or stocks you bought 593 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,199 thirty years ago, or the small business you started twenty 594 00:39:41,199 --> 00:39:47,800 five years ago, all of these things allow you. Basically, 595 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,400 it's a significant cut in the capital gains taxes, and 596 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,440 one by the way that Schumer has endorsed in the past. 597 00:39:53,519 --> 00:39:58,400 Democratic Senate voted for this policy and the Democratic House 598 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,559 is voted for it in previous years. They would argue, 599 00:40:01,559 --> 00:40:04,280 we don't want a different rate on capital gains, but 600 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,280 we do recognize that you shouldn't pay taxes on inflation 601 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,079 it has for purposes of growth, it has the same effect. 602 00:40:12,119 --> 00:40:18,119 It's a significant rate reduction on the increase of your 603 00:40:18,119 --> 00:40:24,159 assets inflation plus regular gain. If we do that, it 604 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,679 will tremendously increase the wealth that Americans own and their 605 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,599 land and their property and their farms, in their investments, 606 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,000 in their small businesses. And when they do sell, they 607 00:40:36,039 --> 00:40:39,039 know whatever they decide to sell, they know that the 608 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,440 capital gains tax will be a fraction of what it 609 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,079 would have been without this. And this can be done 610 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:52,239 through rulemaking over at Treasury. Treasury Secretaries is supportive of 611 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,480 this idea. The President is supportive of it. I talked 612 00:40:55,559 --> 00:41:01,880 to both of them recently, and yes, getting this done 613 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,039 all the people who will decide to sell their houses now, 614 00:41:06,119 --> 00:41:10,280 not twenty years from now. Because in the past, you 615 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,719 hold a house long enough, you live in it, and 616 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,519 you think, well, I'd like to go move and be 617 00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:19,440 closer to kids, or move for the weather, or sell 618 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,000 the house and use that money to do other things 619 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,199 with But the capital gains tax because of inflation, was 620 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:29,079 so high people would wait until they passed away and 621 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:36,079 there was you don't have to pick capital gains on 622 00:41:36,119 --> 00:41:39,800 it when you die, but you do until you die. 623 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,840 So this would say, this would allow you to sell 624 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:49,159 things twenty thirty years earlier than you might otherwise pass 625 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,480 them on to children. This will pre up housing for 626 00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:55,559 young families in a way that nothing else would. And 627 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,320 I talked to several Republican Congressmen who said this is 628 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,239 much bigger than any of the other issues we've dealt 629 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,559 with in housing. This would and the Realtors Association said 630 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,119 this would change everything. This would get many, many more 631 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,519 houses out on the market, so people would have the 632 00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:15,440 size house they need, not the one they're stuck with 633 00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:16,679 because of tax policy. 634 00:42:17,039 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 1: That's right, And what is one of the most pressing 635 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,519 issues and what we've heard about certainly over the last 636 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:31,360 several weeks months, really moving into these blue state elections 637 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,840 earlier this month, and that's the affordability issue. And that's 638 00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:38,440 principally at the house side of things. I mean, you 639 00:42:38,679 --> 00:42:41,039 had to be forty years old before you can buy 640 00:42:41,079 --> 00:42:45,960 a house. That really is a crack in the American dream, 641 00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:49,840 to say the very least. So I would imagine too, 642 00:42:50,519 --> 00:42:53,800 just as a finer point on that that frees up 643 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,559 the housing stock, that takes care of a big issue 644 00:42:57,119 --> 00:42:59,679 in the economy, or it goes a long way to 645 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:05,519 help that issue. But that also releases some investment funds 646 00:43:05,559 --> 00:43:08,719 that have been on the sidelines for businesses. That means 647 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,800 job growth and capital growth and all of those things 648 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:13,360 always good for the economy. 649 00:43:14,079 --> 00:43:17,719 Speaker 2: In small businesses that you might decide you wanted to 650 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,480 sell when you are fifty or sixty and not hold 651 00:43:20,519 --> 00:43:24,159 on until you pass away. You get to make the 652 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:29,280 decisions based on your needs as a family, as a couple, 653 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:35,199 as an individual, not Uncle Sam's stupid laws and Uncle 654 00:43:35,199 --> 00:43:41,400 Sam's technical Sam's inflation. Reagan said it is wrong for 655 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,360 people to be pushed into higher tax brackets on the 656 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:49,440 personal income tax because of inflation, and he changed that 657 00:43:49,639 --> 00:43:53,360 so that the tax brackets move up with inflation. So 658 00:43:53,679 --> 00:43:56,360 if you get a pay increase, you may pay you 659 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,880 maybe even to hire a tax bracket, but not if 660 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,880 that pay increase is just as much as inflation. Has 661 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:03,480 to be a real pay increase. 662 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: Right, absolutely well, And that's hopefully what we're seeing a 663 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,320 return after four long years in the desert, a return 664 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:17,079 to that kind of common sense that really has meaningful impact. 665 00:44:17,199 --> 00:44:20,880 And I think they're you know, people have all kinds 666 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,760 of things that go into a bill, especially one big 667 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,880 beautiful bill. Some things you really like, some things you 668 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,639 really don't. But the tax reduction, the tax relief aspect 669 00:44:31,679 --> 00:44:34,880 of all of this is so critical I think to 670 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:39,239 moving this country forward and quite frankly, the prospects of 671 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,639 conservatives who want to keep this republic on the right path. 672 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,199 Thanks to my guest today, Grover and Norquist, President of 673 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:50,039 Americans for Tax Reform, you've been listening to another edition 674 00:44:50,079 --> 00:44:53,199 to the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections 675 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,559 correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. 676 00:44:57,039 --> 00:45:01,400 Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray. 677 00:45:08,599 --> 00:45:14,199 Speaker 2: I heard the fame voice, the Reason, and then it 678 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:15,360 faded away.