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Chump a 43 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:06.280 Casino dot Com terms the condition toplying se what secret deals. 44 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:19.039 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 45 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:22.159 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 46 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:29.840 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every week, 47 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:33.800 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 48 00:02:33.879 --> 00:02:37.879 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host 49 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:41.439 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 50 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:55.080 Good Evening. Four years Lori Orr believed her Los Angeles 51 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:59.080 firefighter dad was a selfless hero. When Laurie's dad was 52 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:02.879 arrested in charge with four murders and countless arson fires, 53 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:05.599 it was her testimony that helped keep him from being 54 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:09.159 sent to death row. Eventually, Lorie's search for the truth 55 00:03:09.319 --> 00:03:11.919 led her to the dark secrets lurking in her family's 56 00:03:11.960 --> 00:03:16.240 past and to an inescapable conclusion about the remorseless killer 57 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:20.319 an arsonists known as the Pillowcase Pyro and his reign 58 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:26.199 of terror. In sunny Southern California excerpt, a hardware store 59 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:29.240 employee saw the flames as they roared toward him down 60 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:32.080 one of the over stalked aisles. A group of employees 61 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:36.319 ran by, and then he herded them toward a nearby 62 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:39.159 fire escape. The fire was sucking all of the oxygen 63 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:41.039 out of the room and when they got the door open, 64 00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:44.759 the group of panic Shoppers employees running for their lives 65 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:46.719 were literally pushed out of the door as though they 66 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:49.960 were shot from a cannon. It was coming coming fast 67 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:54.159 towards us. The flame, the fire, everything together with award 68 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:58.000 winning journalist Frank C. Girardo Junior, or looks back at 69 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:00.960 on the journey that took her from love to fear 70 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:03.840 and the search for answers about how the father she 71 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:07.199 loved could also be a thrill seeking predator, a predator 72 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:10.120 brought to justice by a dogged investigator no one wanted 73 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:13.919 to believe, A master manipulator who participated in the writing 74 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:17.000 of this memoir and hopes that it would redeem him 75 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:19.720 in the eyes of his family and others who trusted 76 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:22.279 and believed in him. The book that we're featuring, the 77 00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:26.959 Siveing is Burned, Pyromania, Murder, and a Daughter's Nightmare with 78 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:30.800 my special guest journalist and author Frank C. Girardo Junior. 79 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:33.240 Welcome back to the program and thank you very much 80 00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:35.040 for Greeninger's interview. Frank C. 81 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:39.399 Girardo Junior, Hey, Hi, Dan, thanks for having me on. 82 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:41.800 That was a great introduction and. 83 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:45.160 Thank you very much, Thank you very much. Good to 84 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:49.839 have you back. Let's talk for a second about how 85 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:54.600 you came to write this book. We mentioned Lori Anne Kovac. 86 00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:58.399 Let's talk about a little bit about how you came 87 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:00.240 to write this book. 88 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:04.120 It really came about it in a sort of circuitous way. 89 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:09.680 I knew John her dad when he was a fireman, 90 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:14.079 and I knew him when he was a murder suspect 91 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:18.720 and on trial, and I kind of knew Laurie peripherally, 92 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:22.839 but I hadn't really, you know, thought much about the 93 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:26.160 case for twenty five years or more. And then the 94 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:29.160 Wild Blue Press said that they'd been approached by Laurie. 95 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:33.680 She'd been writing a diary and needed somebody to kind 96 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:36.160 of help her flesh it out. And I jumped at 97 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:38.279 the chance, because, you know, it was a story that 98 00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:42.600 I was intimately familiar with and one that affected many 99 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:48.959 of the neighborhoods around where I live. So her Dad 100 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:52.519 is quite an interesting character. He is the most prolific 101 00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:56.360 serial arsonist of the twentieth century, at least he's been 102 00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:04.800 described that way. And his story is just absolutely fascinating, 103 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:09.000 primarily because he tells it himself. In a work of 104 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:14.600 fiction or what he calls fiction, and his telling of 105 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:18.079 it kind of led to his arrest and conviction and 106 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:25.680 near sentenced to death row. Now Laurie. Laurie's relationship with 107 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:31.120 her father is very complicated because she grew up believing 108 00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:32.839 he was a hero. This was a man who would 109 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:36.480 be on the nightly news talking to reporters about, you know, 110 00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:39.639 a fire he helped put out, or a dog he 111 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:44.959 helped rescue, or a family he helped rescue, and later 112 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:48.360 on in his career talking about, you know, his investigations 113 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:52.639 into major arson fires. So she saw her dad as 114 00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:58.879 a hero, and when he was facing the death notely, 115 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:02.279 she's so leaved in him that she showed up at 116 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:06.839 court testified on his behalf, and many of the jurors 117 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:09.560 said later they were so moved by what she had 118 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:13.439 to say that they decided that they would not seek 119 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:19.920 the definitely for John or in this very complicated series 120 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:22.600 of arsons that took place over about a twenty year 121 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:23.319 period of time. 122 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:28.079 You talk about what you write about in the book 123 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:33.879 about Glendale, Los Angeles suburb the home of the famed 124 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:36.800 Rose Bowl. Now you talk about just sort of the 125 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:42.240 of course, the geography and position of Los Angeles and 126 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:46.439 also Glendale. And you talk about fire season, so as 127 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:48.000 you do write in a book, tell us a little 128 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:50.639 bit about for people that don't know about fire season 129 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:55.240 and propensity of fires, major fires, tell us a little 130 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:58.720 bit about Glendale and Los Angeles and the history of 131 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:02.199 major wildfires and fires. 132 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:07.800 So so Angelina's like to think, there's you know, four 133 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:10.480 seasons here, and they're not the ones that everyone else, 134 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:14.439 you know, knows. If you live in Canada or if 135 00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:17.240 you live in Boston, you have you know, a real 136 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:20.920 solid spring, a solid summer, a solid ball, and a 137 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:23.759 solid winter. But in southern California, our seasons are a 138 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:27.480 lot different. And one of one of our seasons and 139 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:31.279 the most the scariest one, is fire season. And it 140 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:37.159 usually starts, you know, sometime between June and August. It 141 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:38.679 doesn't have a set day, you know, it's not the 142 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:44.960 first day of summer, and it's marked by very dry conditions, 143 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:51.799 high winds for you know, massive fires. And you know, 144 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:53.679 over the last two years, I'm sure you've you've seen 145 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:58.120 news reports about some of these fires. The what's interesting 146 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:01.320 about LA and Glendale where which is sort of where 147 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:05.519 this book is centered is that many of the homes 148 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:08.919 in this part of the of the south Land are 149 00:09:08.919 --> 00:09:13.799 built right into these hillsides, and these hillsides are covered 150 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:19.120 with you know, dried desert grasses, tinder, if you will, 151 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:25.679 and creaso and other sorts of plants that you know, 152 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:30.240 naturally burn and when they do, they burn hot when 153 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:33.399 the wind blows it can you know, take a fire 154 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:36.480 of a couple acres up to one hundred acres in 155 00:09:36.519 --> 00:09:40.399 a matter of minutes, and you know, if there's houses 156 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:43.759 anywhere near, you're not going to be You're not going 157 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:46.559 to be protecting your property. You're going to be running 158 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:51.240 for your life with whatever possessions you can grab. John 159 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:57.320 Lord's dad an arson investigator in Glendale. He knew about 160 00:09:57.320 --> 00:10:02.279 this stuff. And you know, his job initially was to 161 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:06.360 go and inspect weeds strewn lots, to tell people to 162 00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:10.720 cut back their weeds watch out for you know, fire season, 163 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:16.200 and and so he you know, it turns out that 164 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:23.360 he was actually able to manipulate people that that didn't 165 00:10:23.399 --> 00:10:25.960 follow the rules the way that he thought they should. 166 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:29.799 One of the stories that we uncovered for the book 167 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:34.919 Burn was John going to the home of a city 168 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:38.039 planning commissioner in Glendale. I'll tell you a bit about 169 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:42.360 Glendale in a fact, and telling the guy he needed 170 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:45.279 to cut the weeds in his backyard. The man didn't 171 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:47.639 feel that he had to, and within a matter of 172 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:50.759 days he had a fire that burned, you know, down 173 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:56.600 the hillside and nearly right to his front door. Of course, 174 00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:59.879 the man believed later on that it may have been 175 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:08.919 that by John Glendale. To understand Los Angeles, you have 176 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:12.080 to envision it as not just being you know, La 177 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:16.360 Palm Trees, Hollywood, Beverly Hills, but actually a collection of 178 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:23.039 eighty eight very different communities. And those communities have in 179 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:26.440 many cases their own police departments, in their own fire departments. 180 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:29.840 They all have different standards of you know, what it 181 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:31.759 takes to be a fireman or what it takes to 182 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:35.240 be a policeman. And within those you know, eighty eight 183 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:42.120 communities our twelve million people. So predators, especially in the 184 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:45.120 seventies and the eighties and even the nineties, could move 185 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:49.960 pretty easily from communities to a community without you know, 186 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:53.559 stirring up a lot of attention. And that was sort 187 00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:58.919 of John's forte He was very good at making his 188 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:02.080 way into a place, not really being seen or noticed, 189 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:06.759 and then you know, finding a way to take advantage 190 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:08.679 of the situation where he could set a fire. 191 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:17.720 Let's go back to Laurie's life and talk about growing 192 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:22.720 up with her father, John Orr and then that family 193 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:26.519 changing and her mother being with someone named Jerry, So 194 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:31.120 her life changing dramatically. But of course she knows her 195 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:35.039 father and and talks about that in your book about 196 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:37.600 growing up with him. So tell us about her early 197 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:40.279 life with her father and her mother and what happened 198 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:44.360 and to set her life in a different course. Sure. 199 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:49.120 So, you know, Laurie is one of two children that 200 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:53.799 John had with his first wife, Jody. They were, you know, 201 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:56.360 kind of a close knit family. They you know, they 202 00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:59.480 lived in a home very close to John's parents and 203 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:05.200 very close to Jody's parents. But John was a serial 204 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:14.480 philanderer and eventually he and Jody split. She had the kids, 205 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:19.480 and John, you know, went on with his life. Laurie, 206 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:22.120 you know, didn't know this was going on. She saw 207 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:25.000 her father through the prism of this man who was 208 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:30.000 a hero, fighting, hero, always working, always out there protecting 209 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:34.360 the citizens of Los Angeles County and of Glendale where 210 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:43.320 they lived, and and her mom Jody Ah had you know, 211 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:46.399 had her flaws. She hooked up with a with a 212 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:52.000 man named Jerry, and Jerry wasn't the kindest stepfather that 213 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:56.279 one could ask for. In fact, he was abusive to 214 00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:59.960 Laurie's mom and abusive to Laurie and her sister Carrie. 215 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:06.320 And they hoped they saw their dad, you know, as 216 00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:10.039 being you know, a savior perhaps. But you know, the 217 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:13.679 thing is, the interesting thing is that John was so 218 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:16.480 wrapped up in himself and he'll tell you this today 219 00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:21.159 that you know, he didn't really see what was happening 220 00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:25.000 with his with his girls or didn't care about it, 221 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:29.559 uh and you know, sort of ignored their cries for help, 222 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:32.759 and some of their cries for help, you know, weren't 223 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:35.200 the verbal cries, hey, dad, come and get us out 224 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:38.559 of this situation. You know, they were they were running away, 225 00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:41.200 they were drinking at ay, you know, young age, they 226 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:45.840 were engaging in you know, some dangerous behaviors because they 227 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:49.320 didn't like the situation that they were in with their mom. 228 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:54.759 And so they're living in this kind of oh you know, 229 00:14:55.000 --> 00:15:00.639 Cinderella asks sind situation and here's their dad, Tiro, and 230 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:02.480 they're always looking at him as sort of being the 231 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:05.720 man that can rescue them from being Cinderella. It didn't happen, 232 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:12.519 but that didn't keep them from loving him. They you know, 233 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:17.480 went on trips with their dad occasionally, They you know, 234 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:25.879 were introduced to subsequent girlfriends and wives, and in fact, 235 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:28.159 you know, we got some family pictures of one of 236 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:32.240 John's weddings where you know, the girls are there and happy, 237 00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:38.559 beautifully dressed, and you know, on the outside it disappeared 238 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:43.240 to be an you know, a flawed but all American family. 239 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:48.799 Let's go back to some of the things that you 240 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:51.639 write about in that he had this workaholic nature. He 241 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:54.720 took not only when he finally did get a job 242 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:57.159 with the fire department or any job he had, he 243 00:15:57.200 --> 00:15:59.759 took as many jobs as he could. And so let's 244 00:15:59.799 --> 00:16:03.879 talk about some of that that major characteristic that drives 245 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.720 him through his entire life. Basically that these this workaholic 246 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:12.879 and also that before we talk about that his disappointment 247 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:16.440 in trying to become a member of law enforcement, how 248 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:21.240 that how that shapes his attitude, and how that helps 249 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:24.960 him get into a career and with the fire department. 250 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:31.399 Okay, this is I think really gets to the heart 251 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:35.759 of John Orr his you know, his wor alkoholic nature 252 00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:41.039 as you know, as a young guy, even you know, 253 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.639 a young team, John was on the mate looking two 254 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:46.720 ways to make money. You know, he did paper outs, 255 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:49.879 he did you know, car washes, he did anything that 256 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:54.240 he could to make a book. And you know it's 257 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:56.159 I guess that sort of served him while he was 258 00:16:56.200 --> 00:17:00.639 an awkward teenager growing up. But you know, he didn't 259 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:07.519 want for money. He after high school. John was in 260 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:09.440 high school in the sixties and that was when the 261 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:15.599 Vietnam War was raging really and you know, the options 262 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:19.039 for a young man who wasn't necessarily college bound were 263 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:23.480 a few. One of them was get drafted or joined 264 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:28.039 the military. John decided to join the Air Force, and 265 00:17:28.119 --> 00:17:32.079 in the Air Force he followed through on a lifelong dream, 266 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:36.279 and a lifelong dream was to be a firefighter. So 267 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:38.799 John gets trained as a firefighter in the Air Force 268 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:42.640 and he's sent to Spain and he performs, you know, moderately. 269 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:46.640 Well it's about that time too, that he and Jody 270 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:49.720 get married and they're living on the base in Spain, 271 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:55.599 and John is exhibiting a characteristic that will come to 272 00:17:56.839 --> 00:17:58.640 mark him for the rest of his life. And that 273 00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:04.359 is working all the time. Here's Jody is his newlywed wife, 274 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:07.599 and she never sees the guy because he's even when 275 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:10.400 he's not on shift, he's out working, you know, palling 276 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:13.279 around with his buddies or you know, looking for ways 277 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:19.759 to make more money. After John was discharged honorably, so 278 00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:26.160 he came back to Los Angeles and decided that, you know, 279 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:27.079 his career. 280 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:27.880 Judy was boring. 281 00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:28.400 Hello. 282 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:31.480 Then Judy discovered jumpa Casino dot com. 283 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:32.920 It's my little escape. 284 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:34.759 Now Judy is the life of the party. 285 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:36.960 Oh baby mama is bringing home the bacon. 286 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.319 WHOA Take it easy, Judy. 287 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:41.960 The Chump of life is for everybody. 288 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:44.599 So go to chumpacasino dot com and play over one 289 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:47.720 hundred casino style games joined today and playing for free 290 00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:51.799 for your chance to redeem some serious prices jump jump 291 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:52.960 a casino dot Com. 292 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:55.039 No just necessary weight. We're going at my monkey team 293 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:56.839 plus turns and condition to place. He lets every details. 294 00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:02.519 Path probably lay h law enforcement, and he took a 295 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:06.200 job as a security guard at the Sears department store 296 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.759 and sought out employment with the Los Angeles Police Department. 297 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.039 In the late sixties and early seventies, L A. P. 298 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:19.599 D would put out constant calls for recruitment. So, uh, 299 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:23.839 he got into a recruiting class, headed over to l 300 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:29.240 A p D. And took the psych psychological evaluation, which 301 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:35.279 is a at that time a very complicated taest. Uh, 302 00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:40.039 you know, like a Minnesota multi Phasic Personality Inventory type 303 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:45.039 of thing m mp I, and you know, the evaluators there, 304 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:49.240 after looking at the task, UH saw that he had 305 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:51.599 some tendencies that would not make him a good cop. 306 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:52.599 Uh. 307 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.200 You know, he exhibited a personality that you know was 308 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:03.359 borderline sociopathic and potentially psychopathic. Thing. LAPD called him in, 309 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:08.759 told him he was rejected. It devastated him then, you know, 310 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:12.720 so involved in his career as a security guard at Sears, 311 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:16.640 he figured that he'd be a natural cop, right because 312 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:19.480 he so knew his community in Los Angeles, he figured 313 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:23.440 that he'd be a great cop in LA. So he decided, well, 314 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:25.119 if I can't be a cop, I'll be a fireman. 315 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:31.559 And he went and applied for a job with the 316 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:38.119 Los Angeles Fire Department and the LA Fire Department, big 317 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:43.039 city fire department. He did okay on a psychological test, 318 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:46.240 and he did okay on most of the entry tests, 319 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:49.880 but in the academy class. One of the requirements was 320 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:54.480 that you carry a large ladder for a certain amount 321 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:57.519 of feet and be able to put the ladder up 322 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:01.599 against the window and then get up on it. And 323 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:06.160 John was unable to physically unable to do it. And 324 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:12.400 again this, this inability to do this caused the Los 325 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.039 Angeles Fire Department and to him, Hey, you know what, sorry, 326 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:20.079 but you're not suitable. You're not physically fit for the 327 00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:22.920 kind of work that we need Los Angeles firefighters to do. 328 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:29.640 So thanks for your application. Sorry, so again. John walks 329 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:35.359 away from a dream job, extremely bitter, angry, really angry 330 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:39.839 at the system, angry at you know, the bureaucrats that 331 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:43.079 are holding him back, and I'm kind of angry at 332 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.519 this the city that he loved. I remember, I told 333 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:50.519 you that Los Angeles is a community of many communities. 334 00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:59.200 And just because Los Angeles itself wasn't hiring, other cities were. Glendale, 335 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.599 a neighbor of Los Angeles just to the north, had 336 00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:07.240 a fire department and they still do. At that time, 337 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:11.440 they were among the well, let's just say, the lowest 338 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:15.200 paid and probably lacking, you know, the significant kind of 339 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:19.240 training that a fire department would need in its personnel. 340 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:25.279 And so John was able to convince the folks in 341 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:28.160 Glendale that he was a good match and they hired 342 00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:31.119 him and brought him on board as a firefighter. Well, 343 00:22:31.240 --> 00:22:36.599 the pay was low, hours were long, and that meant 344 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:39.079 John needed to keep his job as a security guard 345 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:43.039 at Seers, and he did. It also meant that, you know, 346 00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:46.039 every now and then he'd even take a third job 347 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:49.279 on a couple of occasions, for you know, months at 348 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:51.240 a time. He worked as a clerk at the seven 349 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:57.240 to eleven, constantly looking for ways to make money. Some 350 00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:01.599 of that money, you know, went toward child support, you know, 351 00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:06.680 and later on alimony and those types of things that 352 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:09.599 you know, John would need to pay as he went 353 00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:16.920 from girlfriend to girlfriend and marriage to marriage. But he 354 00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:20.599 he just had this you know, desire to be out 355 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:25.000 sort of you know, doing something. He earned quite a 356 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:31.359 reputation as a security guard, he as he tells it, 357 00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:36.400 you know, he developed a knack for nailing shoplifters. You know. 358 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:38.319 I mean, if you've ever been in the department store 359 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:42.319 where they get a shoplifter, you probably have never even 360 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:45.759 seen it because they do it very quietly, you know, right. 361 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:47.920 But John would always make a big show of it. 362 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:52.240 And you know, he didn't mind being armed. He didn't 363 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:54.519 mind chasing people out into the parking lot, he didn't 364 00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:58.839 mind scuffling with people if they took stuff, and he 365 00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:01.359 didn't mind. He will always want it to be the 366 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:05.599 hero and being in a department store security guard gave 367 00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:11.359 him that opportunity. As a rookie firefighter, some of those 368 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:16.960 what we would call law enforcement skills, you know, he 369 00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:20.480 put them to work. There's there's stories of John driving 370 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:26.000 around in a city fire truck and spotting vandals, you know, 371 00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:30.920 from a local gang, and you know, rather than calling 372 00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:36.400 the police department for backup, you know, John makes an 373 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:40.160 effort to apprehend these men, and in one case, he 374 00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:44.039 even gets into just imagine this, right, He's in a 375 00:24:44.119 --> 00:24:47.880 car chase with some bad guys in LA and he's 376 00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:52.319 driving a fire truck, you know, and they're driving their 377 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:57.839 their car and an accident ensues during the course of 378 00:24:57.880 --> 00:24:59.839 this chase, and John gets out and holds one of 379 00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:00.640 them a gunpoint. 380 00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:02.720 Yeah. 381 00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:05.559 Well, the well, the Birthday police department comes up and 382 00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:10.200 arrests them, and everybody that you know knows John, you know, 383 00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:13.160 laughs at this part of his personality. You know, he's 384 00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:16.440 kind of the uh, you know, Paul Blart, mall cop 385 00:25:16.519 --> 00:25:17.960 of the of his day. 386 00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:28.359 Right now, let's get to sorry, let's get to some 387 00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:32.119 of the the what what they call now what they 388 00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:34.599 said at the time as well, was that this was 389 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:41.880 an epidemic of intentional fires in the eighties in this 390 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:46.000 Los Angeles county. And then you talk about right about 391 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:49.640 October tenth, nineteen eighty four, game two of the World 392 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:54.160 Series San Diego Padres versus Detroit Taggers, and you said, 393 00:25:54.200 --> 00:25:58.240 the streets of South Pasadena were quiet, but a little 394 00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:02.480 fire started at a grocery store in Pasadena, and an hour 395 00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:09.720 or later another Pasadena Fire Department investigation tell us what 396 00:26:09.799 --> 00:26:13.720 happens on October tenth, nineteen eighty four with the starting 397 00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:15.559 with the small fires and what it leads to. 398 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:23.400 Sure, so, Los Angeles in the early in mid eighties 399 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:27.319 had this epidemic of what we're called potato chip fires. 400 00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:33.519 And this is surprising. It was surprising that meanwhile, kind 401 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.359