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Welcome to 24 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:01.039 the Family vdW group. 25 00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:02.880 NOPERD is necessary if we were privitted by laws, he 26 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:05.079 terms and condisions eighteen plus love. 27 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:18.680 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 28 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:21.799 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 29 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:27.959 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker VTK. 30 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:32.680 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 31 00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:36.840 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 32 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:40.359 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 33 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:52.719 Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 34 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:55.959 program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime 35 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:59.359 History and the authors that have written about them. The 36 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:04.519 Rocky amount Hold celebrated place in the wildest West of 37 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:07.879 both myth and reality. Yet this is the first ever 38 00:02:07.959 --> 00:02:11.240 travel guide to the many sites associated with Colorado and 39 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:17.919 Wyoming's notorious past, complete with precise GPS coordinates of significant places. 40 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:21.759 Written with the same fast paced, gripping style of best 41 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:26.560 selling crime author Ron Francell's wildly praised earlier work, The 42 00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:29.599 Crime Buff's Guide to the Outlaw Rockies, takes you on 43 00:02:29.719 --> 00:02:33.360 a time traveling tour through the haunts of Butch Cassidy 44 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:36.960 and his Wild Bunch gang, serial killer Ted Bundy, the 45 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:40.840 Columbine Massacre, and hundreds of the West's most lawless characters. 46 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:45.479 It's an indispensable resource for both criminal history enthusiasts and 47 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:50.560 travelers because each site description includes a concise summary of 48 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:56.919 the location's significance, historical content, context maps, directions, and photos, 49 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:02.960 all with exact GPS details. Our book this season that 50 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:07.120 we're featured is The Crime Buff's Guide to the Outlaw 51 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:10.879 Rockies with my special guest, Ron Franzel. Thank you for 52 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:13.520 agreeing to this interview and welcome back to the program. 53 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:15.280 Ron Franzel, glad. 54 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:16.800 To be here. Thank you for having me. 55 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:18.639 Dan Well, thank you very much. 56 00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:20.560 Always fun to come to your show. 57 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:24.000 Oh great, you're making me blush here. It's about an audience. 58 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:28.039 Can't see that. So now, for those people that aren't 59 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:31.360 aware and didn't listen to our last interview last year, 60 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:33.400 when you were good enough to come on and talk 61 00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:38.439 about Delivered from Evil, you're really best known for. Even 62 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:42.599 though you've written some nonfiction and of course some true crime, 63 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:44.159 and you've been at it for a little while here 64 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:49.680 quite a while, you're associated with What's now considered even 65 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:51.319 though it just came out in two thousand and eight. 66 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:54.639 What's considered now a true crime classic and that's called 67 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:58.039 The Darkest Night about a murder in a small town, 68 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:01.639 and you were personally involved where you you knew people 69 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:04.919 intimately involved in the story. So this really was really 70 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:10.680 close to home for you, and not just metaphorically. And 71 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:13.080 like I said, you did Deliver from Evil. And then 72 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:16.720 last year in twenty ten, you put out the book 73 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:20.680 The Crime Buffs Guide to Outlaw Texas. And I know 74 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:23.839 that you live in San Antonio, Texas. But what I 75 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:30.040 found interesting was coming from the true crime perspective and 76 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:33.839 also being a of a fictional writer and a nonfiction writer, 77 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:39.399 but having this classic The Darkest Night and Delivered from Evil. 78 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:43.439 What made you or what brought you around to the 79 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:47.720 idea of combining basically two genres, which would be true crime, 80 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:53.439 true crime history and this practical travel guide. What you know, 81 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:56.120 I know that I've looked into your past would work 82 00:04:56.519 --> 00:04:58.399 as a journalist with the Denver Post. But tell our 83 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:01.920 audience how you came about to this idea of combining 84 00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:05.240 these two genres and coming up with the Crime Buff's 85 00:05:05.319 --> 00:05:07.319 Guide to the Outlaw Rockies. 86 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:11.399 Well, you know, the answer kind of goes back a 87 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:14.160 little bit to the point when I decided I was 88 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:20.680 going to write The Darkest Night. My intent was to 89 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:25.360 explore this monstrous crime that happened in nineteen seventy three 90 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:30.199 to two childhood friends of mine who lived right next 91 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:36.439 door to me, and not just that crime and its aftermath, 92 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:41.040 but also the effect on community and why even to 93 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:45.279 this day, now nearly forty years later, this small town 94 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:50.519 continues to treat this as a fresh wound. And I 95 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:54.959 really wanted to explore that. And I didn't start out 96 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:58.000 saying I want to write a true crime. I started 97 00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:01.480 off saying I want to tell this fascinating story and 98 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:06.040 then go a little deeper and and touch some of 99 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:13.600 the humanity that sticks, that sticks to our memory for 100 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:16.959 such a long time. And now I was fascinated by that. 101 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:21.480 So so the book did come out, of course and 102 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:29.399 became a bestseller, shocking nobody more than me, because I 103 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:32.720 thought I had just told a good story. It wasn't 104 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:34.680 a true crime writer. It just had to be a 105 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:38.480 true story that was about a crime. Well, that suddenly 106 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:43.079 landed me in solidly in the genre, to the point 107 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:48.800 where doing anything else became very difficult. Agents, editors, people 108 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:51.519 along the way. Now they want a new true crime. 109 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:56.959 So I continued in that, but I've always been a 110 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:04.199 history nut and a course as a journalist, I'm fascinated 111 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:09.600 by moments when people are seen at their best and 112 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:13.720 their worst, and that usually comes down to two things, 113 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:20.720 war and crime, and so I was fascinated with those 114 00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:25.920 stories as well. Well. Along comes well, I should say, 115 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:30.480 and I love the road. I love to be on 116 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:34.160 the road. So all of a sudden, these three things 117 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:39.439 kind of came together. And I was going out and 118 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:44.000 exploring on weekends here in Texas with my wife, and 119 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:50.000 we were we were finding all kinds of history. Among 120 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:56.160 it were these crime sites, and I began to think 121 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:59.240 that we might have something here if we could just 122 00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:04.720 do this little history book that was about crime and 123 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:08.319 just tell people where these sites are. Because I really 124 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:17.680 believe the history, that our perspective on history is greatly 125 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:21.800 informed by standing where it happened, or at least standing 126 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:27.439 in places that were significant to that history. So it 127 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:31.639 all came together beautifully. We did the Outlaw Texas book, 128 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:37.120 which was very successful, and the publisher had already contracted 129 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:40.000 to do the Rockies book. Because I grew up in 130 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:43.559 Wyoming and worked in Colorado, this was a natural for me. 131 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:46.799 And then next year we'll have a third installment come out. 132 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:51.240 It'll be The Outlaw d C for the Washington DC area, 133 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:55.519 just in time for election year here in the United States. 134 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:55.919 Right. 135 00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:00.360 Interesting, yeah, interesting. All the characters you're gonna find there, well, 136 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:01.600 you'll just have to yeah. 137 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:05.320 I mean, the hardest part is trying not is trying 138 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:11.600 to avoid having it be a political book. So I 139 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:15.679 put a high value on finding crimes that weren't political, 140 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:18.600 even though there were a lot in there. I really 141 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.360 wanted to find something that went a little farther afield. 142 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:27.240 Well, you know, after this, the third one, the guy 143 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:30.399 the Crime Buffs Guide to Outlaw DC, you'll be pigeonholed 144 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:33.639 and no agent or publisher or want you to do anything. 145 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:38.159 But well, if that's the case, then it's worked out. 146 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:38.360 Well. 147 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:41.440 If they're successful, at least I get a few road 148 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:42.200 trips out of it. 149 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:46.320 Yeah, that's great, that's very good. Good for you. Now, 150 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:50.679 you know, it's for those people that don't know. It's incredible. 151 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:53.840 When I went through the book and looked at all 152 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:57.879 the characters, the famous characters are not so famous, how 153 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:01.720 many you know, it's just double the list of people 154 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:05.960 that you have written about in this crime buff skuy 155 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:09.240 to outlaw Rockies. Now some of the more famous and 156 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:11.960 we we should go through that because it is fascinating 157 00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:16.000 to have some of the the the biggest names in crime, 158 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:18.919 I think in true crime history. Uh. Maybe you can 159 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:23.360 tell us what you found and whereabouts? Uh geographically this 160 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:27.799 is is Butch Cassidy where some of his haunts and 161 00:10:27.960 --> 00:10:30.759 uh and also his gang, the Wild Bunch. Tell us 162 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:32.519 about Butch Cassidy. 163 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:37.679 Well, Butch Cassidy was, you know, a young a young 164 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:42.240 fellow that born in in Utah, raised in a Mormon family, 165 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:45.360 and and and sort of at a very young age 166 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:48.600 started to go bad, hanging out with the wrong people 167 00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:54.799 and just in general not staying out of trouble. 168 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:55.879 Uh. 169 00:10:55.960 --> 00:11:00.240 At one point in there, he takes a job job 170 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:02.960 in a butcher shop in Rock Springs, Wyoming. 171 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:03.960 Uh. 172 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:07.039 And it just happens that the guy who runs this 173 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:10.600 butcher shop is for lack of a better term, though 174 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:15.240 a butcher to the to the rustlers. The rustlers would 175 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:18.759 russell cattle, bring them in, and and this this fellowed 176 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:22.279 slaughter them and cut them up. And and we've disposed 177 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:27.679 of the evidence and made a buck. So Uh. This 178 00:11:27.879 --> 00:11:31.360 is one of his first jobs, and that's where he 179 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.519 His name to that point had been George l Roy Parker. 180 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:40.120 At that point he's known as Butch, and he takes 181 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:45.000 another last name, Cassidy, and that's how Robert le Roy 182 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:51.159 Parker becomes Butch Cassidy. He then goes on to the 183 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:55.360 Hole in the Wall country in Wyoming and where, which 184 00:11:55.399 --> 00:12:00.879 is really an area that, because of its seclusion, is 185 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:07.360 very popular with all kinds of outlaws, and everybody who 186 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.440 hung out there was loosely called the Hole in the 187 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:14.759 Wall Gang, even though they weren't a gang. It was 188 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:17.200 just a bunch of outlaws that came and went as 189 00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:22.639 they pleased. It was there that Butch starts starts doing things. 190 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:26.240 He does his first bank robbery and Telluride, Colorado, and 191 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:28.440 that's one of the sites in the book. The butcher 192 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:31.679 Shop in Rock Springs is in the book still exists. 193 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:39.600 He in the late in the mid eighteen nineties. He 194 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:42.440 decides he can do this himself, he can put together 195 00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:45.879 his own gang, and with a buddy of his, not 196 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:50.039 the Sundance Kid, they put together a gang and they 197 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:54.559 begin robbing banks. The Sundance Kid comes along later, and 198 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:57.399 we tend to think of Butch casting the Sundan's Kid 199 00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:02.639 as being these lifelong inseparable but in fact their acquaintance 200 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:10.240 comes much much later, and and they they are presumed, 201 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:13.759 of course, to have died together in Bolivia. But even 202 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:17.840 there are even sites around the West that that are 203 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:21.759 connected to the legend that they didn't, that they survived 204 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:26.679 and and came back to the United States and and 205 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:31.519 lived out their lives. But Butch is a fascinating character. 206 00:13:32.600 --> 00:13:38.000 It's said that he really didn't like hurting or killing people, 207 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:40.840 and in fact there's no real evidence that he ever did. 208 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:47.799 Some of his gang did. But he gained the reputation 209 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:53.679 of being a pretty friendly operator, almost a Robin Hood 210 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:56.480 sort of character. And I think if somebody wanted to 211 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:00.919 write a great book, they'd write a business management book 212 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:07.039 based on Butch Cassidy's approach to his business, because he 213 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:10.919 took care of the people who were important to him, 214 00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:14.720 and those were the ranchers and the people along the 215 00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:19.159 way that someday he might need to, you know, call 216 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:24.240 upon for a place to sleep, a fresh horse, place 217 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:28.399 to hide, you know, or just not turning him in. 218 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:32.279 So he really does a pretty good job. He's got 219 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:36.000 a pretty good business model going there. So he's one 220 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:39.840 of the fascinating characters. And I think Butch Cassidy and 221 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:45.360 the Sundance Kid would be fairly well known outlaws to 222 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:51.639 us in North America. But the movie in nineteen sixty 223 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:57.759 nine starring Paul Newman and Robert Redford really really just 224 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:03.159 skyrocketed their and to the point where it is today. 225 00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:08.600 Now along along the way in some of these places, 226 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:12.399 is there any attempt to set any of these up 227 00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:17.279 as tourist attractions? Is there anybody capitalizing on these locations 228 00:15:17.399 --> 00:15:19.759 or trying to capitalize on them setting them up as 229 00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:21.919 sort of tourist attractions along the way at all? Is 230 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:23.000 there anything like that? Oh? 231 00:15:23.080 --> 00:15:26.600 Absolutely, yeah. I mean a lot of people, you see 232 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:30.320 a lot of communities that are that have been, you know, 233 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:37.559 desperate for money and tourism for a long time, long ago, 234 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:43.679 started recognizing the potential of these outlaws to bring people 235 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:46.039 to town. In many of these places, when you go 236 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:51.080 and you find outlaw graves, for instance, there are a 237 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:55.919 lot of places in Colorado and Wyoming, for example, where 238 00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:01.720 well known outlaws came in and tried to rob a 239 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:06.000 bank and the citizenry just rose up and took matters 240 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:13.840 into their own hands and killed them. They typically were 241 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:18.879 buried out beyond the fence of the local cemetery, maybe 242 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:22.840 in an unmarked grave. As the years pass and as 243 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:27.360 the sensibilities change, and as the town fathers kind of 244 00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:31.039 recognize that they've got something here, you know, after a 245 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:34.320 few people show up at the Chamber of Commerce and say, hey, 246 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:38.320 could you tell me where Tom McCarty is buried? Then 247 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:40.960 they realize, hey, these people are coming to town and 248 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:42.240 spending money. 249 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:45.960 Lucky Land Casino, asking people what's the weirdest place you've 250 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:46.639 gotten lucky? 251 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:48.879 Lucky in line at the Delhi I. 252 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:51.759 Guess ah, in my dentist's office more than once. 253 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:53.440 Actually do I have to say? 254 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:53.879 Yes? 255 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:54.200 You do? 256 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:57.919 In the car before my kid's pta meeting? Really, yes, 257 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:00.480 excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've got? I'm lucky? 258 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:03.200 I never win? And tell well, there you have it. 259 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:06.079 You could get lucky anywhere playing at Lucky Landsloughts dot 260 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.880 com play for free. Right now? Are you feeling lucky? 261 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:11.839 We're just necessary for eighteen plus turns, consisions, plus. 262 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.200 Everything else to see this old outlaw. So maybe we 263 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:18.720 better do something about that. So you see that all 264 00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:23.599 over all over the Colorado and Wyoming, but other places, 265 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:30.240 even Texas, where interpretive signs have been put up. Maybe 266 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:32.200 there's a billboard on the edge of town that says, 267 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:38.200 you know the place where you know this outlaw died. 268 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:42.400 But yeah, they are capitalizing on You see it all 269 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:52.400 over and it's rather fascinating. Really, Sundance, Wyoming, it happened 270 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:57.079 to be that a guy named Harry Longiba, a young 271 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:03.119 fifteen year old horse thief, gets caught in Crook County, 272 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:09.480 Wyoming and thrown in the Sundance jail. He ultimately, you know, 273 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:12.519 he does his time and his release, but he also 274 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:18.400 gets a nickname, the Sundance Kid. Of course we igno 275 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:23.119 about that. It was within the last few years Sundance, 276 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:31.759 recognizing this, has has a life size bronze statue out 277 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:37.519 on the courthouse lawn of Harry Longabah the Sundance Kids 278 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:40.759 sitting in a jail cell. And it's a very popular 279 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:45.160 attraction for people outside of Sundance. People in Sundancers a 280 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:49.799 little discomfort because they've just put up a statue to 281 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:54.680 a criminal, right interesting, But people go and see it, 282 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:58.599 they take pictures and it's a popular little attraction. So 283 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:04.880 you see that you see that across the West when 284 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:11.119 when it's possible, uh, you you see these interpretive signs, 285 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:18.319 you see communities taking advantage of that. Another more macabre example, 286 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:28.559 a train robber named Big Nose George Parrot participated. Well. 287 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:31.920 He was being chased by a posse and he killed 288 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:39.319 two lawmen. When he was ultimately caught, he was convicted, 289 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:42.960 but before the sentence could be carried out, he was 290 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:51.160 lynched the local townspeople. It was an extraordinary lynching. Actually, 291 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:55.279 local doctor cuts him down and takes him back to 292 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:59.640 his uh you know, doctor's office in his house, and 293 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:05.000 and dissects him, you know, just in the interest of science, 294 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:10.240 he says. But when his dissection is done, he begins 295 00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:14.039 to do some pretty strange things. He takes Big Nose 296 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:19.759 George's skull and turns the skull cap into a candy dish. 297 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:24.079 He strips the skin off of Big Nose George and 298 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:28.680 has a pair of shoes made. This doctor ultimately goes 299 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:32.680 on to become the governor of Wyoming, and he wears 300 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:34.440 the shoes to his inauguration. 301 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:36.160 Yeah, it's incredible. 302 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:42.359 The skull and the shoes and other artifacts are on 303 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:47.599 display in the rollins the Carbon County Museum in Rollin's, 304 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:52.799 Wyoming for anybody to look. It's a rather grizzly display, 305 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:58.599 but again capitalizing on the interest of tourists. 306 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:02.960 Yeah, amazing what they used the scrotum. They made a 307 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:07.119 medical bag, ashtrays, change purse. It's incredible. 308 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:11.720 Yeah, I take a tobacco patch, tobacco pouch out of 309 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:13.440 the scrotum of this outlaw. 310 00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:17.000 So incredible. Now we'll just going to go backwards a 311 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:19.079 little bit before we introduce a little bit more characters. 312 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:22.160 I want. I think we didn mentioned that what is 313 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:25.680 the expanse of time that you've covered modern homicides in 314 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:28.359 this not just Tales of the Wild Wild West? But 315 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.200 how far back do you go? How many years would 316 00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:34.240 you say the expanse is between the modern homicides that 317 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:38.200 you do cover more modern homicides and where you started 318 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:41.880 off in terms of this Wild wild West history and 319 00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:47.400 primarily what states are you primarily concentrating on in your 320 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:51.640 travels and in terms of specific locations. 321 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:55.759 Yeah, I'll start at the end with that. This particular 322 00:21:55.799 --> 00:22:00.799 book only looks at Colorado and Wyoming, right, Subsequent books 323 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:05.920 will probably undertake Montana, Nevada, and Arizona. New Mexico, which 324 00:22:06.039 --> 00:22:11.640 all have rich outlaw histories too, but in this case 325 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:16.240 only Colorado and Wyoming. The span of time that's covered 326 00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:22.839 is from roughly the you know, the period right after 327 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:28.680 the opening of the West to the White Man so 328 00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:32.279 you know, the mid eighteen hundreds, all the way up 329 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:38.960 into the two thousands, so that we have this span 330 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:45.599 that goes from essentially the Mountain Man period through the 331 00:22:46.759 --> 00:22:54.240 gunslinger outlaw age, and then up through the gangster era, 332 00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:59.920 and then finally, you know, the more contemporary where we 333 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:05.319 have serial killers and mass murderers and white collar criminals, 334 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:11.880 and of course some even more interesting things on the 335 00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.480 good side of the law, where we see the development 336 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:21.119 of some really fascinating technologies and some heroic people. So 337 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:25.200 it really covers the gamut in terms of time. 338 00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:31.920 Now, in eighteen sixty four you talk about the Sand 339 00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:36.000 Creek Massacre, and you know, I had not heard about this, 340 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:41.559 so it was all new for me and the Union 341 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:46.319 Colonel John Shivington Colorado cavalry killed hundreds of Indian women 342 00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:50.440 and children. Tell us why why you included that? Why 343 00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:54.000 you felt this was an important historical story to include 344 00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:54.599 in this book. 345 00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:00.039 I in general, I tried to stay away from in 346 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:01.960 all of these books. I try to stay away from 347 00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:08.680 acts of war, because we could we could talk about 348 00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:12.880 whether the massacre of Custer the Little Big Horn was 349 00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:16.359 a crime or was just a battle in a war. 350 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:24.319 But there would be no disputing between you and me 351 00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:29.160 and probably any of your listeners if I included the 352 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:35.079 me LII massacre in a book of crimes because it 353 00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:39.079 was a crime. It wasn't. It wasn't. It certainly happened 354 00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:42.880 during a war, but there was criminal behavior, sure. The 355 00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:46.720 Sand Creek massacre is an example, is the me lie 356 00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:50.200 of the Indian It's one of the me lies of 357 00:24:50.319 --> 00:25:00.839 the Indian Wars, where a loosely confederated military unit Colorado, 358 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:07.359 you know, Colorado Cavalry just gets together and goes out 359 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:11.519 looking for Indians to kill. There's there there they they 360 00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:17.000 they come upon uh settlement of Indians who were friendly 361 00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:22.200 and who were who had been given permission to be 362 00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:28.799 where they were. But the the soldiers get drunk and 363 00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:33.400 and they just just sort of slice into this this 364 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:39.920 encampment of Indians mainly women and children, uh and massacred them. 365 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:41.240 Uh. 366 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:44.880 And and though those that they don't go on a 367 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:49.759 uh you know, an incredible journey to get away all 368 00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:55.559 the way to Montana. So nothing is ever done to Shivington, 369 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:00.440 although there there are two two of his office who 370 00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:04.160 absolutely refuse to participate because they see what this is 371 00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:13.039 and and they meet interesting and quick ends after all 372 00:26:13.079 --> 00:26:18.079 of this. But there is no prosecution. And it's one 373 00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:23.920 of the real dark moments in our Western history. I 374 00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:28.160 deemed it a crime because ultimately, when you look at it, 375 00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:31.079 there was there was. There was almost no other explanation. 376 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:37.400 It was pure prejudice and pure hatred and pure stupidity 377 00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:41.759 behind it. There was no military purpose. There was really 378 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:47.160 even no military bearing at all. It was. It was 379 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:54.039 a horrific event. So it was one of those acts 380 00:26:54.200 --> 00:26:58.400 that happened during a war that I decided really qualified 381 00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:00.880 as a crime, and there really are a lot of those. 382 00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:06.240 But that was one, right I agree to another story. 383 00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:10.279 This person was hung at the age of forty three 384 00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:13.799 and nineteen o three, and he was called the detective 385 00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:17.039 and the law man, and his name was Tom Horn. 386 00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:22.200 And it seems to be that he was lynched and 387 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:27.480 hung for was for a murder that he was accused of. 388 00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:34.880 Now now tell us why years later he was There 389 00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:38.039 was some talk of him in review of this case 390 00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:42.680 that he might have been wrongfully convicted. Tell us about that. Yeah, fascinating. 391 00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:46.359 Tom Horn is one of the great legendary figures in 392 00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:49.680 the West, and very and in a lot of ways, 393 00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:56.640 very typical of characters that we see throughout our history 394 00:27:56.759 --> 00:27:59.440 here here and in Canada as a matter of fact, 395 00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:06.319 who who at different times in their lives have been 396 00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:11.960 good guys and bad guys. And sometimes the line blurs 397 00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:14.640 and we're not really sure if they're good guys or 398 00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:23.160 bad guys. Doc Holliday, Wyatt, Earp Bat Masterson, Uh, you know, 399 00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:28.920 Big Ben Thompson. There's there's a string of these people. Uh, 400 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.160 we're not really sure. Well, Tom Horne is one of them. 401 00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:36.079