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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking
Speaker 5: Killers in True crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker VTK.
Speaker 5: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 5: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 5: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 4: Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 4: program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime
Speaker 4: History and the authors that have written about them. The
Speaker 4: Rocky amount Hold celebrated place in the wildest West of
Speaker 4: both myth and reality. Yet this is the first ever
Speaker 4: travel guide to the many sites associated with Colorado and
Speaker 4: Wyoming's notorious past, complete with precise GPS coordinates of significant places.
Speaker 4: Written with the same fast paced, gripping style of best
Speaker 4: selling crime author Ron Francell's wildly praised earlier work, The
Speaker 4: Crime Buff's Guide to the Outlaw Rockies, takes you on
Speaker 4: a time traveling tour through the haunts of Butch Cassidy
Speaker 4: and his Wild Bunch gang, serial killer Ted Bundy, the
Speaker 4: Columbine Massacre, and hundreds of the West's most lawless characters.
Speaker 4: It's an indispensable resource for both criminal history enthusiasts and
Speaker 4: travelers because each site description includes a concise summary of
Speaker 4: the location's significance, historical content, context maps, directions, and photos,
Speaker 4: all with exact GPS details. Our book this season that
Speaker 4: we're featured is The Crime Buff's Guide to the Outlaw
Speaker 4: Rockies with my special guest, Ron Franzel. Thank you for
Speaker 4: agreeing to this interview and welcome back to the program.
Speaker 4: Ron Franzel, glad.
Speaker 6: To be here. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 4: Dan Well, thank you very much.
Speaker 6: Always fun to come to your show.
Speaker 4: Oh great, you're making me blush here. It's about an audience.
Speaker 4: Can't see that. So now, for those people that aren't
Speaker 4: aware and didn't listen to our last interview last year,
Speaker 4: when you were good enough to come on and talk
Speaker 4: about Delivered from Evil, you're really best known for. Even
Speaker 4: though you've written some nonfiction and of course some true crime,
Speaker 4: and you've been at it for a little while here
Speaker 4: quite a while, you're associated with What's now considered even
Speaker 4: though it just came out in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 4: What's considered now a true crime classic and that's called
Speaker 4: The Darkest Night about a murder in a small town,
Speaker 4: and you were personally involved where you you knew people
Speaker 4: intimately involved in the story. So this really was really
Speaker 4: close to home for you, and not just metaphorically. And
Speaker 4: like I said, you did Deliver from Evil. And then
Speaker 4: last year in twenty ten, you put out the book
Speaker 4: The Crime Buffs Guide to Outlaw Texas. And I know
Speaker 4: that you live in San Antonio, Texas. But what I
Speaker 4: found interesting was coming from the true crime perspective and
Speaker 4: also being a of a fictional writer and a nonfiction writer,
Speaker 4: but having this classic The Darkest Night and Delivered from Evil.
Speaker 4: What made you or what brought you around to the
Speaker 4: idea of combining basically two genres, which would be true crime,
Speaker 4: true crime history and this practical travel guide. What you know,
Speaker 4: I know that I've looked into your past would work
Speaker 4: as a journalist with the Denver Post. But tell our
Speaker 4: audience how you came about to this idea of combining
Speaker 4: these two genres and coming up with the Crime Buff's
Speaker 4: Guide to the Outlaw Rockies.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, the answer kind of goes back a
Speaker 6: little bit to the point when I decided I was
Speaker 6: going to write The Darkest Night. My intent was to
Speaker 6: explore this monstrous crime that happened in nineteen seventy three
Speaker 6: to two childhood friends of mine who lived right next
Speaker 6: door to me, and not just that crime and its aftermath,
Speaker 6: but also the effect on community and why even to
Speaker 6: this day, now nearly forty years later, this small town
Speaker 6: continues to treat this as a fresh wound. And I
Speaker 6: really wanted to explore that. And I didn't start out
Speaker 6: saying I want to write a true crime. I started
Speaker 6: off saying I want to tell this fascinating story and
Speaker 6: then go a little deeper and and touch some of
Speaker 6: the humanity that sticks, that sticks to our memory for
Speaker 6: such a long time. And now I was fascinated by that.
Speaker 6: So so the book did come out, of course and
Speaker 6: became a bestseller, shocking nobody more than me, because I
Speaker 6: thought I had just told a good story. It wasn't
Speaker 6: a true crime writer. It just had to be a
Speaker 6: true story that was about a crime. Well, that suddenly
Speaker 6: landed me in solidly in the genre, to the point
Speaker 6: where doing anything else became very difficult. Agents, editors, people
Speaker 6: along the way. Now they want a new true crime.
Speaker 6: So I continued in that, but I've always been a
Speaker 6: history nut and a course as a journalist, I'm fascinated
Speaker 6: by moments when people are seen at their best and
Speaker 6: their worst, and that usually comes down to two things,
Speaker 6: war and crime, and so I was fascinated with those
Speaker 6: stories as well. Well. Along comes well, I should say,
Speaker 6: and I love the road. I love to be on
Speaker 6: the road. So all of a sudden, these three things
Speaker 6: kind of came together. And I was going out and
Speaker 6: exploring on weekends here in Texas with my wife, and
Speaker 6: we were we were finding all kinds of history. Among
Speaker 6: it were these crime sites, and I began to think
Speaker 6: that we might have something here if we could just
Speaker 6: do this little history book that was about crime and
Speaker 6: just tell people where these sites are. Because I really
Speaker 6: believe the history, that our perspective on history is greatly
Speaker 6: informed by standing where it happened, or at least standing
Speaker 6: in places that were significant to that history. So it
Speaker 6: all came together beautifully. We did the Outlaw Texas book,
Speaker 6: which was very successful, and the publisher had already contracted
Speaker 6: to do the Rockies book. Because I grew up in
Speaker 6: Wyoming and worked in Colorado, this was a natural for me.
Speaker 6: And then next year we'll have a third installment come out.
Speaker 6: It'll be The Outlaw d C for the Washington DC area,
Speaker 6: just in time for election year here in the United States.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: Interesting, yeah, interesting. All the characters you're gonna find there, well,
Speaker 4: you'll just have to yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean, the hardest part is trying not is trying
Speaker 6: to avoid having it be a political book. So I
Speaker 6: put a high value on finding crimes that weren't political,
Speaker 6: even though there were a lot in there. I really
Speaker 6: wanted to find something that went a little farther afield.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, after this, the third one, the guy
Speaker 4: the Crime Buffs Guide to Outlaw DC, you'll be pigeonholed
Speaker 4: and no agent or publisher or want you to do anything.
Speaker 6: But well, if that's the case, then it's worked out.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 6: If they're successful, at least I get a few road
Speaker 6: trips out of it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's great, that's very good. Good for you. Now,
Speaker 4: you know, it's for those people that don't know. It's incredible.
Speaker 4: When I went through the book and looked at all
Speaker 4: the characters, the famous characters are not so famous, how
Speaker 4: many you know, it's just double the list of people
Speaker 4: that you have written about in this crime buff skuy
Speaker 4: to outlaw Rockies. Now some of the more famous and
Speaker 4: we we should go through that because it is fascinating
Speaker 4: to have some of the the the biggest names in crime,
Speaker 4: I think in true crime history. Uh. Maybe you can
Speaker 4: tell us what you found and whereabouts? Uh geographically this
Speaker 4: is is Butch Cassidy where some of his haunts and
Speaker 4: uh and also his gang, the Wild Bunch. Tell us
Speaker 4: about Butch Cassidy.
Speaker 6: Well, Butch Cassidy was, you know, a young a young
Speaker 6: fellow that born in in Utah, raised in a Mormon family,
Speaker 6: and and and sort of at a very young age
Speaker 6: started to go bad, hanging out with the wrong people
Speaker 6: and just in general not staying out of trouble.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 6: At one point in there, he takes a job job
Speaker 6: in a butcher shop in Rock Springs, Wyoming.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 6: And it just happens that the guy who runs this
Speaker 6: butcher shop is for lack of a better term, though
Speaker 6: a butcher to the to the rustlers. The rustlers would
Speaker 6: russell cattle, bring them in, and and this this fellowed
Speaker 6: slaughter them and cut them up. And and we've disposed
Speaker 6: of the evidence and made a buck. So Uh. This
Speaker 6: is one of his first jobs, and that's where he
Speaker 6: His name to that point had been George l Roy Parker.
Speaker 6: At that point he's known as Butch, and he takes
Speaker 6: another last name, Cassidy, and that's how Robert le Roy
Speaker 6: Parker becomes Butch Cassidy. He then goes on to the
Speaker 6: Hole in the Wall country in Wyoming and where, which
Speaker 6: is really an area that, because of its seclusion, is
Speaker 6: very popular with all kinds of outlaws, and everybody who
Speaker 6: hung out there was loosely called the Hole in the
Speaker 6: Wall Gang, even though they weren't a gang. It was
Speaker 6: just a bunch of outlaws that came and went as
Speaker 6: they pleased. It was there that Butch starts starts doing things.
Speaker 6: He does his first bank robbery and Telluride, Colorado, and
Speaker 6: that's one of the sites in the book. The butcher
Speaker 6: Shop in Rock Springs is in the book still exists.
Speaker 6: He in the late in the mid eighteen nineties. He
Speaker 6: decides he can do this himself, he can put together
Speaker 6: his own gang, and with a buddy of his, not
Speaker 6: the Sundance Kid, they put together a gang and they
Speaker 6: begin robbing banks. The Sundance Kid comes along later, and
Speaker 6: we tend to think of Butch casting the Sundan's Kid
Speaker 6: as being these lifelong inseparable but in fact their acquaintance
Speaker 6: comes much much later, and and they they are presumed,
Speaker 6: of course, to have died together in Bolivia. But even
Speaker 6: there are even sites around the West that that are
Speaker 6: connected to the legend that they didn't, that they survived
Speaker 6: and and came back to the United States and and
Speaker 6: lived out their lives. But Butch is a fascinating character.
Speaker 6: It's said that he really didn't like hurting or killing people,
Speaker 6: and in fact there's no real evidence that he ever did.
Speaker 6: Some of his gang did. But he gained the reputation
Speaker 6: of being a pretty friendly operator, almost a Robin Hood
Speaker 6: sort of character. And I think if somebody wanted to
Speaker 6: write a great book, they'd write a business management book
Speaker 6: based on Butch Cassidy's approach to his business, because he
Speaker 6: took care of the people who were important to him,
Speaker 6: and those were the ranchers and the people along the
Speaker 6: way that someday he might need to, you know, call
Speaker 6: upon for a place to sleep, a fresh horse, place
Speaker 6: to hide, you know, or just not turning him in.
Speaker 6: So he really does a pretty good job. He's got
Speaker 6: a pretty good business model going there. So he's one
Speaker 6: of the fascinating characters. And I think Butch Cassidy and
Speaker 6: the Sundance Kid would be fairly well known outlaws to
Speaker 6: us in North America. But the movie in nineteen sixty
Speaker 6: nine starring Paul Newman and Robert Redford really really just
Speaker 6: skyrocketed their and to the point where it is today.
Speaker 4: Now along along the way in some of these places,
Speaker 4: is there any attempt to set any of these up
Speaker 4: as tourist attractions? Is there anybody capitalizing on these locations
Speaker 4: or trying to capitalize on them setting them up as
Speaker 4: sort of tourist attractions along the way at all? Is
Speaker 4: there anything like that? Oh?
Speaker 6: Absolutely, yeah. I mean a lot of people, you see
Speaker 6: a lot of communities that are that have been, you know,
Speaker 6: desperate for money and tourism for a long time, long ago,
Speaker 6: started recognizing the potential of these outlaws to bring people
Speaker 6: to town. In many of these places, when you go
Speaker 6: and you find outlaw graves, for instance, there are a
Speaker 6: lot of places in Colorado and Wyoming, for example, where
Speaker 6: well known outlaws came in and tried to rob a
Speaker 6: bank and the citizenry just rose up and took matters
Speaker 6: into their own hands and killed them. They typically were
Speaker 6: buried out beyond the fence of the local cemetery, maybe
Speaker 6: in an unmarked grave. As the years pass and as
Speaker 6: the sensibilities change, and as the town fathers kind of
Speaker 6: recognize that they've got something here, you know, after a
Speaker 6: few people show up at the Chamber of Commerce and say, hey,
Speaker 6: could you tell me where Tom McCarty is buried? Then
Speaker 6: they realize, hey, these people are coming to town and
Speaker 6: spending money.
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Speaker 1: gotten lucky?
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Speaker 2: Actually do I have to say?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: You do?
Speaker 1: In the car before my kid's pta meeting? Really, yes,
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Speaker 6: Everything else to see this old outlaw. So maybe we
Speaker 6: better do something about that. So you see that all
Speaker 6: over all over the Colorado and Wyoming, but other places,
Speaker 6: even Texas, where interpretive signs have been put up. Maybe
Speaker 6: there's a billboard on the edge of town that says,
Speaker 6: you know the place where you know this outlaw died.
Speaker 6: But yeah, they are capitalizing on You see it all
Speaker 6: over and it's rather fascinating. Really, Sundance, Wyoming, it happened
Speaker 6: to be that a guy named Harry Longiba, a young
Speaker 6: fifteen year old horse thief, gets caught in Crook County,
Speaker 6: Wyoming and thrown in the Sundance jail. He ultimately, you know,
Speaker 6: he does his time and his release, but he also
Speaker 6: gets a nickname, the Sundance Kid. Of course we igno
Speaker 6: about that. It was within the last few years Sundance,
Speaker 6: recognizing this, has has a life size bronze statue out
Speaker 6: on the courthouse lawn of Harry Longabah the Sundance Kids
Speaker 6: sitting in a jail cell. And it's a very popular
Speaker 6: attraction for people outside of Sundance. People in Sundancers a
Speaker 6: little discomfort because they've just put up a statue to
Speaker 6: a criminal, right interesting, But people go and see it,
Speaker 6: they take pictures and it's a popular little attraction. So
Speaker 6: you see that you see that across the West when
Speaker 6: when it's possible, uh, you you see these interpretive signs,
Speaker 6: you see communities taking advantage of that. Another more macabre example,
Speaker 6: a train robber named Big Nose George Parrot participated. Well.
Speaker 6: He was being chased by a posse and he killed
Speaker 6: two lawmen. When he was ultimately caught, he was convicted,
Speaker 6: but before the sentence could be carried out, he was
Speaker 6: lynched the local townspeople. It was an extraordinary lynching. Actually,
Speaker 6: local doctor cuts him down and takes him back to
Speaker 6: his uh you know, doctor's office in his house, and
Speaker 6: and dissects him, you know, just in the interest of science,
Speaker 6: he says. But when his dissection is done, he begins
Speaker 6: to do some pretty strange things. He takes Big Nose
Speaker 6: George's skull and turns the skull cap into a candy dish.
Speaker 6: He strips the skin off of Big Nose George and
Speaker 6: has a pair of shoes made. This doctor ultimately goes
Speaker 6: on to become the governor of Wyoming, and he wears
Speaker 6: the shoes to his inauguration.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's incredible.
Speaker 6: The skull and the shoes and other artifacts are on
Speaker 6: display in the rollins the Carbon County Museum in Rollin's,
Speaker 6: Wyoming for anybody to look. It's a rather grizzly display,
Speaker 6: but again capitalizing on the interest of tourists.
Speaker 4: Yeah, amazing what they used the scrotum. They made a
Speaker 4: medical bag, ashtrays, change purse. It's incredible.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I take a tobacco patch, tobacco pouch out of
Speaker 6: the scrotum of this outlaw.
Speaker 4: So incredible. Now we'll just going to go backwards a
Speaker 4: little bit before we introduce a little bit more characters.
Speaker 4: I want. I think we didn mentioned that what is
Speaker 4: the expanse of time that you've covered modern homicides in
Speaker 4: this not just Tales of the Wild Wild West? But
Speaker 4: how far back do you go? How many years would
Speaker 4: you say the expanse is between the modern homicides that
Speaker 4: you do cover more modern homicides and where you started
Speaker 4: off in terms of this Wild wild West history and
Speaker 4: primarily what states are you primarily concentrating on in your
Speaker 4: travels and in terms of specific locations.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'll start at the end with that. This particular
Speaker 6: book only looks at Colorado and Wyoming, right, Subsequent books
Speaker 6: will probably undertake Montana, Nevada, and Arizona. New Mexico, which
Speaker 6: all have rich outlaw histories too, but in this case
Speaker 6: only Colorado and Wyoming. The span of time that's covered
Speaker 6: is from roughly the you know, the period right after
Speaker 6: the opening of the West to the White Man so
Speaker 6: you know, the mid eighteen hundreds, all the way up
Speaker 6: into the two thousands, so that we have this span
Speaker 6: that goes from essentially the Mountain Man period through the
Speaker 6: gunslinger outlaw age, and then up through the gangster era,
Speaker 6: and then finally, you know, the more contemporary where we
Speaker 6: have serial killers and mass murderers and white collar criminals,
Speaker 6: and of course some even more interesting things on the
Speaker 6: good side of the law, where we see the development
Speaker 6: of some really fascinating technologies and some heroic people. So
Speaker 6: it really covers the gamut in terms of time.
Speaker 4: Now, in eighteen sixty four you talk about the Sand
Speaker 4: Creek Massacre, and you know, I had not heard about this,
Speaker 4: so it was all new for me and the Union
Speaker 4: Colonel John Shivington Colorado cavalry killed hundreds of Indian women
Speaker 4: and children. Tell us why why you included that? Why
Speaker 4: you felt this was an important historical story to include
Speaker 4: in this book.
Speaker 6: I in general, I tried to stay away from in
Speaker 6: all of these books. I try to stay away from
Speaker 6: acts of war, because we could we could talk about
Speaker 6: whether the massacre of Custer the Little Big Horn was
Speaker 6: a crime or was just a battle in a war.
Speaker 6: But there would be no disputing between you and me
Speaker 6: and probably any of your listeners if I included the
Speaker 6: me LII massacre in a book of crimes because it
Speaker 6: was a crime. It wasn't. It wasn't. It certainly happened
Speaker 6: during a war, but there was criminal behavior, sure. The
Speaker 6: Sand Creek massacre is an example, is the me lie
Speaker 6: of the Indian It's one of the me lies of
Speaker 6: the Indian Wars, where a loosely confederated military unit Colorado,
Speaker 6: you know, Colorado Cavalry just gets together and goes out
Speaker 6: looking for Indians to kill. There's there there they they
Speaker 6: they come upon uh settlement of Indians who were friendly
Speaker 6: and who were who had been given permission to be
Speaker 6: where they were. But the the soldiers get drunk and
Speaker 6: and they just just sort of slice into this this
Speaker 6: encampment of Indians mainly women and children, uh and massacred them.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 6: And and though those that they don't go on a
Speaker 6: uh you know, an incredible journey to get away all
Speaker 6: the way to Montana. So nothing is ever done to Shivington,
Speaker 6: although there there are two two of his office who
Speaker 6: absolutely refuse to participate because they see what this is
Speaker 6: and and they meet interesting and quick ends after all
Speaker 6: of this. But there is no prosecution. And it's one
Speaker 6: of the real dark moments in our Western history. I
Speaker 6: deemed it a crime because ultimately, when you look at it,
Speaker 6: there was there was. There was almost no other explanation.
Speaker 6: It was pure prejudice and pure hatred and pure stupidity
Speaker 6: behind it. There was no military purpose. There was really
Speaker 6: even no military bearing at all. It was. It was
Speaker 6: a horrific event. So it was one of those acts
Speaker 6: that happened during a war that I decided really qualified
Speaker 6: as a crime, and there really are a lot of those.
Speaker 4: But that was one, right I agree to another story.
Speaker 4: This person was hung at the age of forty three
Speaker 4: and nineteen o three, and he was called the detective
Speaker 4: and the law man, and his name was Tom Horn.
Speaker 4: And it seems to be that he was lynched and
Speaker 4: hung for was for a murder that he was accused of.
Speaker 4: Now now tell us why years later he was There
Speaker 4: was some talk of him in review of this case
Speaker 4: that he might have been wrongfully convicted. Tell us about that. Yeah, fascinating.
Speaker 6: Tom Horn is one of the great legendary figures in
Speaker 6: the West, and very and in a lot of ways,
Speaker 6: very typical of characters that we see throughout our history
Speaker 6: here here and in Canada as a matter of fact,
Speaker 6: who who at different times in their lives have been
Speaker 6: good guys and bad guys. And sometimes the line blurs
Speaker 6: and we're not really sure if they're good guys or
Speaker 6: bad guys. Doc Holliday, Wyatt, Earp Bat Masterson, Uh, you know,
Speaker 6: Big Ben Thompson. There's there's a string of these people. Uh,
Speaker 6: we're not really sure. Well, Tom Horne is one of them.
Speaker 6: And and here's a he's a war hero. He's got
Speaker 6: all kinds of of of adventure in him.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 6: He ends up going and becoming a stock detective during
Speaker 6: during the the the worst part of the Range Wars
Speaker 6: in in Colorado and Wyoming. And and he's known to
Speaker 6: be a cold blooded killer. And he's acting on behalf
Speaker 6: of the ranchers who hired him. And there's a string
Speaker 6: of people that he's been that he's killed. And I
Speaker 6: don't think anybody anywhere has ever made the argument that
Speaker 6: Tom Horn is not guilty of murdering people. The question
Speaker 6: comes up, did he murder the fifteen year old boy
Speaker 6: whose death sent Tom Horn to the gallows? And I
Speaker 6: think that it could be argued both ways. It is
Speaker 6: true that Horn confessed to it. It's just the lawyer's
Speaker 6: arguments were that, well, he was drunk and he always
Speaker 6: talks big when he's drunk. So did Tom Horn kill
Speaker 6: Willie Nickel? I don't know, but it's certainly one of
Speaker 6: the great mysteries of the Old West. Horn is one
Speaker 6: of the great figures of the Old West, and a
Speaker 6: lot of the sites where a lot of the this
Speaker 6: particular crime and Horn related site still exists. Horn himself
Speaker 6: is buried in Boulder, Colorado. Willie nicol the little boy,
Speaker 6: the fifteen year old boy who he is he was
Speaker 6: convicted of killing and then hanged, is buried in Cheyenne.
Speaker 6: But then then you dig a little farther and you
Speaker 6: find some other interesting things. The gallows that Tom where
Speaker 6: Tom Horn was hanged, were innovative. They were invented by
Speaker 6: a local Cheyenne guy named James Julian, and they were
Speaker 6: the first gallows that didn't require a hangman. In other words,
Speaker 6: the the condemned man would walk up the steps, and
Speaker 6: when he stepped onto the trap door, a series of
Speaker 6: water buckets began pouring, uh, until his own weight would
Speaker 6: would snap open the trap door and he would if
Speaker 6: in effect, hang himself. Uh. But Julianne is buried there
Speaker 6: in Cheyenne, and the gallows themselves are still in the
Speaker 6: Frontier prison in in a in a storage room uh
Speaker 6: in Rawlins, Wyoming. Uh. And they were actually used a
Speaker 6: few times after that, did you get Oh sure, yes,
Speaker 6: I and I actually saw them for the first time
Speaker 6: when I was doing research for The Darkest Night, because
Speaker 6: the two killed in that book had spent time on
Speaker 6: death row in that prison. In fact, no more than
Speaker 6: ten paces from the gallows and the gas chamber. So
Speaker 6: you can imagine waking up every morning and seeing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's atmosphere for you. Yeah, yeah, that's incredible.
Speaker 6: Well Horn, you know, Horn is a fascinating figure. He too,
Speaker 6: was made even more famous by Hollywood when Steve McQueen
Speaker 6: played him right in a movie back in the seventies.
Speaker 6: I think, so, it's a lot of these people enjoy
Speaker 6: a lot of these characters enjoy new life because of Hollywood.
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Speaker 4: Era, so to speak, we have someone that probably true
Speaker 4: crime fans aren't as familiar with. Of course we'll get
Speaker 4: to Ted Bundy, because we no show would be complete
Speaker 4: without a little bit of Ted Bundy. But we have
Speaker 4: a gentleman, a young man named Charlie stark Weather, and
Speaker 4: is a young girlfriend, fifteen year old girlfriend. This is
Speaker 4: the nineteen fifties, and this is quite shocking. For the fifties,
Speaker 4: we think the good old days and a time of innocence. Well,
Speaker 4: please tell us about the Charlie's Charlie Starkweather and his
Speaker 4: girlfriend in their crimes.
Speaker 6: Charlie stark Weather was a young, you know, juvenile delinquent
Speaker 6: in in Nebraska. Really he fit the classic mold of
Speaker 6: what we think of as the sort of greaser kid
Speaker 6: from you know, West Side Story or you know, Greece.
Speaker 6: He just fit that mold. But he was definitely a
Speaker 6: rebel and probably didn't have a cause. He had this girlfriend,
Speaker 6: Carol Fugate, Carol Anne Fugate, and you know, they did
Speaker 6: the typical teenage kind of thing. Some point in there.
Speaker 6: Her father and decides, you know this, this is just
Speaker 6: not a good relationship for her, and puts his foot down.
Speaker 6: And Charlie, who at that moment, unbeknownst to anybody else,
Speaker 6: had already killed a service station attendant a couple of them
Speaker 6: months before, comes to his girlfriend's house, kills her mother,
Speaker 6: her father, and her baby sister. And then they hit
Speaker 6: the road and they begin this killing spree across you know,
Speaker 6: the breadth of the Nebraska and ultimately find themselves in
Speaker 6: Wyoming where they are going to steal a car. They
Speaker 6: kill a traveling salesman who's sleeping in his vehicle next
Speaker 6: to the road, and it's at that moment, a sheriff's
Speaker 6: deputy drives up and sort of catches them red handed.
Speaker 6: Carol Anne Fugate runs to the arms of the deputy,
Speaker 6: and Charlie Starkweather steps on the gas and escapes. He's
Speaker 6: ultimately chased by local lawmen and arrested. And he's a
Speaker 6: fascinating figure because you know, you're right, this is the
Speaker 6: nineteen fifties. There have been mass murders by that point.
Speaker 6: I mean, we are not virginal in North America at
Speaker 6: that point. We've seen mass murders happen, but not really
Speaker 6: in the heartland, not like that. This seemed so senseless
Speaker 6: and so shocking. And it's barely a year later when
Speaker 6: the Clutter family is wiped out in Holcombe, Kansas, not
Speaker 6: really that far away. So all of a sudden, right
Speaker 6: there at the end of the nineteen fifties, nineteen fifty
Speaker 6: eight and fifty nine, America is shaken to its core
Speaker 6: by these senseless killings. And it really probably for at
Speaker 6: least Charlie stark Weather's case, But when you look at
Speaker 6: the two of them together, you're seeing some of that
Speaker 6: discomfort between generations getting more uncomfortable, and Charlie Charlie was
Speaker 6: bad to the end. Shortly before he was executed, he
Speaker 6: he was hanged, they asked if he would donate his
Speaker 6: eyeballs to science, and he said, no, why should I.
Speaker 6: Nobody ever gave me anything. And that was that was it.
Speaker 6: So he was He's interesting. And of course again we
Speaker 6: go back to Hollywood. Martin Sheen plays a Charlie stark
Speaker 6: Weather character in the movie bad Lands. We see similar
Speaker 6: characters in Natural Born Killers.
Speaker 4: Sure absolutely, Now the locations that you visited that concerned
Speaker 4: Charlie stark Weather on his week long rampage here this
Speaker 4: killing spree, Well, how many locations would you say that
Speaker 4: there are? And tell us about some of those, some
Speaker 4: of those specific locations that you travel to and that
Speaker 4: we're regarding Charlie stark Weather.
Speaker 6: The key ones are the place that moment when he
Speaker 6: has he and his girlfriend have killed this traveling salesman
Speaker 6: in his vehicle and a deputy just by chance drives
Speaker 6: up that spot is known, not widely known. I actually
Speaker 6: interviewed the son of that deputy. The deputy is dead now,
Speaker 6: but his son, he had taken his son there. You know,
Speaker 6: this was the biggest thing in this deputy's life. He
Speaker 6: had taken his son there over the years and said
Speaker 6: here is where I found Charlie stark Weather. And so
Speaker 6: that son was able to take me to that spot.
Speaker 6: Charlie was ultimately arrested after this high speed gun battle
Speaker 6: many miles away at a little crossroads, again known because
Speaker 6: of police reports at the time, and then some of
Speaker 6: the people involved. We have located their graves now so
Speaker 6: that we know where those are. The jail where he
Speaker 6: was held is no longer there, but we know the spot.
Speaker 6: So it's things like that, And when I get around
Speaker 6: to Outlaw, Nebraska, we'll have many, many more related to
Speaker 6: Charlie stark Weather.
Speaker 4: Now, he's a character that really when we talked about
Speaker 4: people turning things into tourist attraction, and I mean, obviously
Speaker 4: he doesn't have the mythology or Hollywood be you know,
Speaker 4: Hollywood hasn't immortalized them per se. But Charlie stark Weather,
Speaker 4: there's not too many it's not turned into a tourist
Speaker 4: attraction concerning him and his girlfriend. So much is it?
Speaker 6: No, And I think it might be a little too fresh.
Speaker 6: Where you mainly see that is with the long long
Speaker 6: dead Outlaws, who almost occupy a different realm, you know,
Speaker 6: a different parallel universe. We, like I said, outside of
Speaker 6: the people of sun Dance, who are uncomfortable with building
Speaker 6: a statue to a criminal, you don't see many people
Speaker 6: like that.
Speaker 4: You see.
Speaker 6: Plaques in Tell Your Ride, Colorado. There's a plaque on
Speaker 6: the building that was the bank when young Butch Cassidy
Speaker 6: robbed his first bank. And so they have a plaque
Speaker 6: on the bank buildings. You know, this was the first
Speaker 6: bank that Butch Cassidy robbed, not not this was the bank.
Speaker 6: I'm making this up now, But why don't we see
Speaker 6: plaques that say, now, this is the bank where young
Speaker 6: Sam Walton put his first dollar, or you know, Warren Buffett,
Speaker 6: or we don't see that. But we have this fascination
Speaker 6: without laws, and I think that that's that's what we're seeing.
Speaker 6: And and this, like I said, I think what's what's
Speaker 6: interesting to me is that in crime and war both
Speaker 6: we see humans in their most vulnerable. We see them
Speaker 6: at their best and we see them at their worst,
Speaker 6: and we see heroes, we see terrible, terrible villains. So
Speaker 6: this life story gets played out, and if we can
Speaker 6: get enough distance from it so that it doesn't seem personal,
Speaker 6: then we can revel in it to a certain degree.
Speaker 6: And so yeah, I don't think you're going to see
Speaker 6: Charlie Stark weather monuments or anything maybe ever, but it
Speaker 6: is certainly not not until a few more generations have passed.
Speaker 4: M Now one of the darkest moments in American history
Speaker 4: is also involved, is also covered in your book as well,
Speaker 4: with the Columbine massacre in Colorado. For somebody that's just
Speaker 4: got off a boat somewhere, I guess maybe you could
Speaker 4: briefly tell us about Columbine, but also the effect, not
Speaker 4: the effect, because we know the effect must have been
Speaker 4: monumental for the community. But tell us what you found
Speaker 4: in your travel, Why you included the Columbine massacre. I mean,
Speaker 4: it's obvious, but how important is it is it to
Speaker 4: the book? And what are some of the significant locations
Speaker 4: specifically that you've included in and they were obviously kind
Speaker 4: of moving to you as you've included in the book.
Speaker 6: Well, of course, Columbine is one of those transformational moments
Speaker 6: for those of us who lived at that time. And
Speaker 6: you know, you've got it wasn't the worst mass murder
Speaker 6: in American history. It wasn't even the worst school shooting
Speaker 6: in American history, right, It was partly driven. I think
Speaker 6: the public's shock was partly driven by the narratives that
Speaker 6: sprang up very quickly that these guys were getting even
Speaker 6: with bullies. We now know, of course, that they were
Speaker 6: the bullies. They delighted in bullying people, and this was
Speaker 6: this was just part of a general behavior that they had,
Speaker 6: although obviously the worst part of it that they were bullies,
Speaker 6: these were bad kids. They they were delighted that they
Speaker 6: could do the things they did. But this you know,
Speaker 6: of course, in nineteen ninety nine, the two shooters were
Speaker 6: Dylan Clay Bold and Eric Harris, and they killed you know,
Speaker 6: they went in intending to you know, set off a
Speaker 6: bomb and then to kill people as they ran to
Speaker 6: kill survivors as they ran away. The bomb didn't go off,
Speaker 6: and so they decided, well, which is going to go
Speaker 6: in and shoot shoot everybody? And you know, so for
Speaker 6: basically forty nine minutes, they just wandered around killing their classmates.
Speaker 6: And it's horrifying. I think during the during this research,
Speaker 6: I was given the security the surveillance videos from inside
Speaker 6: the school where you see them going from desk to
Speaker 6: desk and shooting kids that are hiding underneath and then
Speaker 6: ultimately in rather vivid detail, frightening detail, you know what
Speaker 6: a surveillance tape looks like. It bespeaks a certain reality
Speaker 6: as they sit down together in the library and count
Speaker 6: to three and then shoot shoot themselves. So it's a
Speaker 6: chilling It's as chilling video as I've ever seen.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 6: But in the grander sense, you know, why why did this?
Speaker 6: Why did this event? Why has this event become uh code?
Speaker 6: Why has Columbine just the word become code for a
Speaker 6: mass murder?
Speaker 5: Uh?
Speaker 6: When when really we have other examples, we have worse
Speaker 6: examples in McDonald's at Sanny Seidro, in the Texas Tower
Speaker 6: in Austin, And Uh, I think it's because we were
Speaker 6: we were just at that moment in our history. One
Speaker 6: thing I found when I was writing about Delivered, about
Speaker 6: the survivors of mass murder and Delivered from Evil, was
Speaker 6: that that I believe we we are, we are in
Speaker 6: this macau a sort of perverse rhythm, and that we
Speaker 6: are shocked by these events when they happen. Then we
Speaker 6: grow a little complacent, and then we forget, and once
Speaker 6: we've forgotten, we're ready to be shocked. All over again.
Speaker 6: And you see these things going on a kind of
Speaker 6: twenty year cycle, so that you have the Bath Michigan
Speaker 6: mass murder, which remains one of the worst in the
Speaker 6: United States ever in the nineteen twenties. By the nineteen forties,
Speaker 6: you have Howard Unru And when Howard Unrew kills people
Speaker 6: in Camden, New Jersey, and on his Walk of Death,
Speaker 6: people wanted to call it the first time. It wasn't
Speaker 6: the first time. It's twenty years later when Charles Whitman
Speaker 6: goes up in the Texas Tower and we're all shocked
Speaker 6: about it again. Twenty years after that, Sanny Seidro MacDonald
Speaker 6: and then the Louvi's Cafeteria twenty years after that to
Speaker 6: Virginia Tech. You know, wow, so and we get shocked
Speaker 6: every time. It's it's it's an incredible thing to go
Speaker 6: back and read the accounts and see that Columbine just
Speaker 6: kind of fell in there. We were just ready, we
Speaker 6: were just ready to be shocked again.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: And to give some credit to Dave Cullen as well,
Speaker 4: he really like initially it was you talked about the
Speaker 4: narrative that it was these people were being picked on
Speaker 4: and they call them the Trench Code Gang, you know.
Speaker 4: So there was a narrative that was, as he discovered
Speaker 4: and journalists discovered for themselves it was wrong. It was
Speaker 4: exactly so they jumped to some conclusions and it seemed
Speaker 4: to be nicely drawn, but it was far more complex
Speaker 4: than that the story.
Speaker 6: But we see that every time, sure, you know, we
Speaker 6: see it every time. When Jared Lee Loughner shot Gabby
Speaker 6: Gifford's in Tucson last January, the immediate narrative was, he
Speaker 6: must be an hardcore conservative who has been influenced by
Speaker 6: this hateful speech coming from talk radio right. And I
Speaker 6: was interviewed on CNN, and that was how they wanted
Speaker 6: it to go. That was the narrative that they were
Speaker 6: playing right then, and I was saying, no, he really
Speaker 6: kind of looks like a normal, garden variety mass murderer,
Speaker 6: a lone, angry, an angry lone wolf. But that narrative
Speaker 6: played for about a week before it started to become clear. No,
Speaker 6: this guy's an angry and deluded lone wolf. So there's
Speaker 6: there There have been in every big mass murder, there's
Speaker 6: always been a narrative that immediately leaps out that is
Speaker 6: almost always wrong. I can't think of one where it
Speaker 6: was right.
Speaker 4: Well, I think one that you've included in your book
Speaker 4: that really no one ever got wrong for long, I
Speaker 4: think is mister Ted Bundy, probably one of the most
Speaker 4: infamous serial killers of all time. Here's a guy that
Speaker 4: really the people knew from the get go. Anyway, at
Speaker 4: least law enforcement knew that they had a bad guy here.
Speaker 4: It's too bad they weren't as secure as they possibly could.
Speaker 4: Maybe you could tell us a little bit about Ted Bundy,
Speaker 4: why you included Ted Bundy in this story and some
Speaker 4: of the locations that you discovered, because Ted Bundy was
Speaker 4: a traveling serial killer for sure, not only being in Colorado.
Speaker 4: But tell us about Ted Bundy and what you discovered
Speaker 4: writing about Ted Bundy in these and in relation to
Speaker 4: these locations.
Speaker 6: Well, of course, Ted Bundy is in some ways associated
Speaker 6: with really three states. I don't think his crimes were
Speaker 6: confined to three states, but but he's associated very strongly
Speaker 6: with with Utah, Colorado, and Florida. Uh and and to
Speaker 6: some degree because of Anne rule the Northwest. So those
Speaker 6: are the spots. Well, of course I'm writing about Colorado
Speaker 6: and uh, what's interesting I think about Bundy, is he
Speaker 6: really is the apex of, you know, the serial killer
Speaker 6: mystique in this country, much in the same way that
Speaker 6: Manson is the apex of the mass murderer. But I
Speaker 6: think that what you see is a handful of of murders,
Speaker 6: likely well in one case, definitely, And my friend Kevin Sullivan,
Speaker 6: who I think has been on your show before, could
Speaker 6: tell you more specifically in some of these cases whether
Speaker 6: Bundy is in fact guilty or whether it's worse or
Speaker 6: better than what we think. Because he was never convicted.
Speaker 6: Bundy escaped twice while he was to be standing trial
Speaker 6: for one of those Colorado murders, and of course went
Speaker 6: to Florida, where ultimately he was caught, convicted, and ultimately executed.
Speaker 6: And here we are today. Now somebody finds a vial
Speaker 6: of Bundy's blood and we're putting it into the CODA
Speaker 6: system to see there if he's related to other unsolved murders.
Speaker 6: I don't think we'll ever be over ted Bundy, but
Speaker 6: his time in Colorado, he definitely he definitely left a
Speaker 6: trail of bodies in Colorado. I think the question is
Speaker 6: whether whether there are more than we think, or even
Speaker 6: in a couple of cases, whether we've we've pinned a
Speaker 6: murder on him that maybe he didn't do and that
Speaker 6: the real killer is has gotten away with it.
Speaker 4: No, for those that don't know, it's Colorado is where
Speaker 4: he escaped and went on to Florida. Was there any
Speaker 4: did you? Was the courthouse or any other location that
Speaker 4: when he was on the run part of Europe book.
Speaker 6: Yes, he escaped twice. He was because he had had
Speaker 6: gone to law school. He was allowed to represent himself
Speaker 6: in the in the murder case in Colorado, and as
Speaker 6: part of that was allowed access to a law library
Speaker 6: in the county courthouse in Aspen. That law library is
Speaker 6: on the second floor of the courthouse and it's it's
Speaker 6: a fairly tall courthouse. But he he went to that
Speaker 6: law library one day and crawled out the window and
Speaker 6: dropped to the ground below and was at large for
Speaker 6: several days, finally arrested, but then they took him down
Speaker 6: to Glenwood Springs, Colorado, to be held in what they
Speaker 6: thought was a much more secure jail. But he then
Speaker 6: escaped from that jail and ultimately, of course found his
Speaker 6: way to Florida, so that that Glenwood Springs jail doesn't
Speaker 6: still exist, but but we know where it was. And
Speaker 6: the Pitkin County Courthouse where he escaped from the law
Speaker 6: library does still exist. And the book they have a
Speaker 6: you know, I have a picture of the the window
Speaker 6: where he escaped, so I all so have the place
Speaker 6: where he abducted, killed and abducted and killed one of
Speaker 6: his victims in in Aspen, so you know. And then
Speaker 6: there are other little Bundy related sites all over, but
Speaker 6: those are the key ones.
Speaker 4: Now you if I'm incorrect here there was is it
Speaker 4: Highland Cemetery in your book where you talk? Is there
Speaker 4: one cemetery that you visited that has its more than
Speaker 4: a lion's share of interesting characters residing in this cemetery?
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I mean certainly in Denver. You know, we
Speaker 6: have Fairmount Cemetery in Denver has has quite an array
Speaker 6: of people. All the older Denver cemeteries have have a
Speaker 6: marvelous array of good and bad figures from crime history.
Speaker 6: One of the interesting stories in here is the story
Speaker 6: of Cheeseman Park in Denver, which is of imagine Central Park,
Speaker 6: but it's in Denver. What Cheeseman Park used to be
Speaker 6: was the city Cemetery and back at the turn of
Speaker 6: the last century, a local mortician was hired to dig
Speaker 6: up all the graves and transplant them elsewhere so that
Speaker 6: they could make this beautiful park. Well he was you know,
Speaker 6: he was a con man himself and was overcharging the city.
Speaker 6: They were sometimes not digging up the graves but charging
Speaker 6: for it, or they were charging to dig up a grave,
Speaker 6: but then they were getting paid by the coffin. So
Speaker 6: they would order children's coffins and break up a body
Speaker 6: into as many pieces as they possibly could so that
Speaker 6: they could get paid three or four times the amount
Speaker 6: that they should have. Anyway, he doesn't get the thing
Speaker 6: cleaned out completely before he's arrested, and so we actually
Speaker 6: have his grave marked in the book. But the fact
Speaker 6: is this beautiful expanse of green and in the center
Speaker 6: of Denver, there remained thousands of unmarked graves there that
Speaker 6: they run across from time to time. The botanical gardens
Speaker 6: were just expanding and came across several of them. So
Speaker 6: every time they stick a shovel in the ground down there,
Speaker 6: they're reminded of this con man who took him for
Speaker 6: a ride.
Speaker 4: Now, the GPS, you talk about the GPS coordinates for
Speaker 4: all these locations as well. Was that your that was
Speaker 4: initially your idea? Was that someone else's idea? And how
Speaker 4: has the book been received? First, the Crime Buffs Guide
Speaker 4: out Law of Texas for that simple fact that people
Speaker 4: actually just don't have a description that's sort of vague.
Speaker 4: They now with this technology of the GPS coordinates so
Speaker 4: that they actually for those people that are the potential
Speaker 4: fan and the potential uh inquisitive mind, can go to
Speaker 4: these actual places and find them quite easily thanks to
Speaker 4: your your book.
Speaker 6: Well, it actually my wife and I were driving in
Speaker 6: northern Louisiana and I wanted to see the spot where
Speaker 6: Bonnie and Clyde were ambushed and died. So we got
Speaker 6: to this little small town that I knew to be
Speaker 6: nearby and stopped and I asked directions, and the fellow
Speaker 6: gave me some directions that turned out to be wrong.
Speaker 6: So we came back to the town and asked somebody else.
Speaker 6: Their directions turned out to be wrong. So on a
Speaker 6: third trip we finally scored we found somebody who could
Speaker 6: really tell us where it was. We went out there,
Speaker 6: and I think it was at that moment I said
Speaker 6: to my wife, wouldn't it just be easier that when
Speaker 6: you asked for directions, somebody gave you GPS coordinates and
Speaker 6: I think that's when the light bulb went on and
Speaker 6: I said, well, hey, you know, why don't we do that.
Speaker 6: Let's write that down. We've got a GPS right here.
Speaker 6: And that was kind of where it began, the GPS
Speaker 6: part of this, that's where it began. So yeah, it's fascinating.
Speaker 6: I think that people with GPS are getting much more
Speaker 6: comfortable with them. This gets them much closer. And you know,
Speaker 6: if there are slight differences between models and whether it
Speaker 6: can make a few different but you're going to be
Speaker 6: usually within ten feet of the exact spot.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 6: And when we go to these places, we are trying
Speaker 6: to get an exact spot. One example, the Abraham Zappruter
Speaker 6: who took the famous film of JFK being assassinated, stood
Speaker 6: in a specific spot that's a known We were able
Speaker 6: to put the GPS device where his feet would have been,
Speaker 6: so you could follow your GPS device and be reasonably
Speaker 6: certain that you're you're where it happened.
Speaker 4: Right. Well, that's fascinating. That's an incredible, incredible addition that
Speaker 4: you stumbled across or that you came across at the
Speaker 4: right moment, and then.
Speaker 6: It's just sort of keeping your mind open to the
Speaker 6: possibilities as as you know, being a writer yourself. That's
Speaker 6: that's half the battle.
Speaker 4: Sure, certainly. Oh, that's it's been great talking about that.
Speaker 4: I also wanted to let our audience know that you're
Speaker 4: going to be back on in a couple of weeks
Speaker 4: again talking about a book that's probably very very close
Speaker 4: to your heart without a doubt, the Sour Toe Club Cocktail,
Speaker 4: the Yukon added Odyssey of a Father and Son, and
Speaker 4: the father and son happen to be yourself and your son.
Speaker 4: We're going so we're going to be talking about that
Speaker 4: in a couple of weeks, and that's on Tuesday instead
Speaker 4: of Wednesday, October fourth, for the audience that's been listening
Speaker 4: so far this evening, So that's going to be looking
Speaker 4: forward to that the read. And also, yeah, that's going
Speaker 4: to be great. That's a very interesting read too, So
Speaker 4: I'm gonna be starting that very very soon and looking
Speaker 4: forward to anticipate read that. Now. I just wanted to
Speaker 4: say too, for our audience, you have written some nonfiction
Speaker 4: as well. Maybe you can tell about those three books
Speaker 4: that are still available, and also we talked about Delivered
Speaker 4: from Evil and also the classic now soon to be
Speaker 4: true crime classic, The Darkest Night, really best selling true
Speaker 4: crime book. It's you can find it everywhere. Tell us
Speaker 4: about your nonfiction, and then tell us again. Just remind
Speaker 4: us about when the Crime Buff's Guide to the Outlaw
Speaker 4: d C is going to be released.
Speaker 6: Well, Outlaw DC will be out in twenty twelve. That's
Speaker 6: as close as I can get right now. I don't
Speaker 6: think a pubdate has been announced. My three earliest books
Speaker 6: were novels. The Angel Fire, which was a literary novel
Speaker 6: set in Wyoming, where I grew up, and then two mysteries,
Speaker 6: also set in Wyoming, and one of them, oddly has
Speaker 6: to do with a dead old out La queen. The
Speaker 6: book isn't about her, but she's mixed in there, and
Speaker 6: oddly enough, this little town is trying to make her
Speaker 6: into a tourist attraction. So those first three novels, and
Speaker 6: I think that very soon I'll be going back to
Speaker 6: fiction a little bits.
Speaker 4: I need a break, right. Yeah, true crime can be taxing,
Speaker 4: and I'm sure I've heard that from other true crime
Speaker 4: authors as well. It's hard to be immersed in it
Speaker 4: completely and not come up for a little bit of
Speaker 4: something completely different. So yeah, I can understand that that's great. Well,
Speaker 4: this is something completely different the True Crime Buff's True
Speaker 4: Crime Buff's Guide to the Outlaw Rockies and of course
Speaker 4: the previous Crime Buff's Guide to Outlaw Texas. So I
Speaker 4: want to thank you very much for this interview Ron
Speaker 4: and coming on and speaking about this excellent book. And
Speaker 4: look forward to talking to you again about another book
Speaker 4: that's coming up very close to your heart. Hour to
Speaker 4: a Club Cocktail and that's October fourth. We'll be talking
Speaker 4: about that.
Speaker 6: That'll be great, and it's my pleasure to be on
Speaker 6: here with you. Dan. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4: Well, it's been my pleasure and I'm sure our audience pleasure.
Speaker 4: And we always get a lot of comments, and you're
Speaker 4: a great interview and I want to again thank you
Speaker 4: very much for coming on this little program and have
Speaker 4: yourself a great evening.
Speaker 6: I will see you in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 4: Okay, thank you, Ron.
Speaker 6: All Right, Dane, good night.
Speaker 4: Even listen to the program True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them, with your host Dan Zukanski, good night,