Speaker 1: Really welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1: Yes, I think this is a third time.
Speaker 2: I think it is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is the third time, maybe, Yeah, And it's
always good to see. I had a really pleasant time
with you at the James Fox event when we went
to the restaurant afterwards and all, yeah.
Speaker 4: We had a good time. That was an extraordinary event.
James is bringing of the Doctor to that event, and
the first time he had ever spoken about the experience
of doing a surgery on an alien was just incredible.
Speaker 1: It was incredible, and it was.
Speaker 3: So authentic, and yeah, he's not lying emotionally, he really
got emotional over the whole thing. And I got to
speak with him after and asked him what he felt
about this being and he got very emotional and teared up,
And you know what I mean. I don't think anyone
can make up that.
Speaker 4: Something that came out in Roger Lear's book of the Alien.
I believe it his book about his experience in Virginia.
He went down there and he interviewed these doctors, but
they wouldn't allow him to use their names, so I'm
not absolutely certain which one said the particular thing I'm going.
Speaker 2: To talk about but.
Speaker 4: The alien at one point filled the room with a
kind of a green haze, and at that point the doctor,
who was getting ready to set his leg, could hear
him telepathically, and he said that his people were sad
for Earth, for us because we had lost the powers
that they still have, and that those powers are things
like telepathy, instantaneous movement from place to place. One of
them once said to me, a distance is an illusion,
and such things. So it was quite extraordinary and it
formed the center of my book, The Fourth Mind, because
if we didn't say we didn't have them, he said
we had lost them. And that's a very significant difference,
meaning why did we lose them?
Speaker 2: Where did they go? What happened to us? Are we
broken in some way?
Speaker 4: And to me, I think the answer is yes we are.
Were we attacked and stripped of these powers? Was it
just nature that did it?
Speaker 2: And if so, how?
Speaker 4: And I think that the most likely explanation is it
was a natural catastrophe called the younger Dryas, and the
two dryas is the older Dryas where the ice age
began to end, and the younger Dryas where it became
a catastrophic change in the planet. And during this catastrophe,
the number of human beings on Earth dropped massively. And
I think that before that was when we were able
to do things like build the pyramids, the fortress at
Soks of Woman, those incredible monoliths at Aman Maadal Albeck stones,
all that engineering. That engineering is real and it's there
on the ground. No matter what the conventional archaeologists say,
what kind of cock and bowl explanation they come up
with to make it sense, to make it make sense
in their belief system, it doesn't make sense in their
belief system period.
Speaker 2: None of it does.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they calls into question whether we had something.
Speaker 1: And I have thought this too.
Speaker 3: There has been around a while, and some things could
get wiped out, some knowledge or whatever by vulcanization or
whatever it is. It's been around so long that things
could re establish in a different way. I asked doctor
Michael Masters about when he says we're coming back from
the future, that's his theory, and I said, what if
it's another species that evolves and the way into the
future that's coming back when he's not a bad thought.
Speaker 2: That's possible, of course, because right now, what I know.
Speaker 4: Of the bodies that we have here now of the
dead aliens.
Speaker 2: When we have a few depends on who you talk to.
Speaker 4: I know that we have three because people close to
me channel Arthur Exen was a family friend and very involved.
Speaker 2: In this in the early days at right Field.
Speaker 4: Told me we did, and I believe there were for
detric in Maryland, and they may still be there for
all I know, unless they've been tossed out by the
many people involved in this who shouldn't be, who don't
understand its significance and haven't got the imagination to realize
that this is about the change of mankind from one
thing to another.
Speaker 3: Now that goes, he goes all the way back to
talking about Roswell, doesn't he?
Speaker 2: He was, Yeah, I'll tell you how I know him. Yeah.
My uncle Mickey.
Speaker 4: Was an Air Force officer at right Field, attached I believe,
to the Air Materiel Command in nineteen forty seven, and
so was Arthur Exen at that time a colonel. I
believe it may have been that he was still a major.
I'm not sure, but in any case, the debris and
the bodies were brought in there and a General Twining
as the head of Air Materiel, and he had just
recently converted to Catholicism after seeing Padre Pio Lepitate in Italy.
So that was that's an unknown story, but it's quite true.
It's certainly a family not a family story, but it's
certainly something art Exit was well aware of. In any case,
my uncle, after I published Communion, called me up and said,
why don't you come down to Lackland where he was
at the retirement community there and you can. I'd like
to talk to you about something. And he was very secretive.
His entire career in was in Air Force intelligence, and
he was seconded to the Atomic Energy Commission right after
in nineteen fifty two and.
Speaker 2: Remained there all of his career.
Speaker 4: And I understand now that researchers are saying that all
of the UFO stuff went to the AEC from air
material l and he never said this because he was
really very close mouthed, but maybe he worked on this
a lot more even then, I know.
Speaker 2: Let me put it that way.
Speaker 4: I went down there with my wife and he and
his wife my dear aunt. They're both passed now, and
I had lunch, and at lunch, Mickey told me about
his experiences at right Field when the debris was brought in,
and he said, at one point I stuck my head
in the thing that we had, and it looked like
a big kite and it was torn up in the
side and there was nothing in it.
Speaker 2: There was no.
Speaker 4: Propulsion system, nothing, And yet we knew from the radars
how it had been functioning, and it was just incredibly
mysterious to them.
Speaker 2: And it was even made.
Speaker 4: The interior was held rigid by balsa.
Speaker 2: But here's the.
Speaker 4: Thing about the bolshood, like this very thin layer of
metal which has been so important in in metallurgy ever
since it was found. A balsa wood was impregnable. You
couldn't do anything to it. You couldn't burn it, you
couldn't break it, you couldn't shoot a hole in it.
It was all like that. It was just the most
extraordinary thing. But the thing that was so interesting to
me was no propulsion system. And at the time I
was mystified. Now I know that the beings themselves, or
the propulsion system in any case, they brought this in.
They brought the bodies in, or a couple of bodies,
And I did not ever hear this from either of them.
Speaker 2: But a General.
Speaker 4: Twining's son said that one of them was still alive,
and it communicated with general trying, and it said that
they weren't interested in human beings.
Speaker 2: And in other words, one of.
Speaker 4: The first things we ever heard from them was also
the first lie. And we have to remember that they
lie a lot. We've got to be very careful about this.
It's not all sreetness and life. It's a complicated, difficult
experience that we can get a hello, a lot out
of to the point where our world can change in
a positive way for us if we are careful, right.
Speaker 2: And let's a struggle.
Speaker 4: A lot of us are not careful when I say
not careful, people that draw conclusions before it's time that
they're angels, that they're demons. Is there anything to do
with our belief systems from the past. Forget I've been
with them, and believe me, if they've been here for
a million years or something, they're absolute morons because they
don't understand us at all. They react to me like
someone who is trying to figure out the most basic
things about what I am. And I think that probably NHI,
non human intelligence has has come here many times, and
we have a record of that in our mythology.
Speaker 2: But these people, I think literally came.
Speaker 4: Here recently and they have a history of knowledge of us,
but no direct experience of us. That's until recently. Otherwise
they don't. Something's not way.
Speaker 2: Off about them.
Speaker 1: Wow, very interesting.
Speaker 3: So I'm going to try not to be too long winded.
But there was something I told you that I wanted
to tell you and I haven't been able to tell you,
and that is years ago. Several years ago, about twenty
twelve or thirteen, I interviewed both Jack Wiener and Charlie
Foltz that were two people from the Aligash incident up
in me which is very people can look it up.
Speaker 1: Nineteen seventy eight. I believe it happened.
Speaker 3: And so basically the story is they're out in the canoe,
they set a great big bonfire and then and this
thing comes over them.
Speaker 1: Charlie that was a flashlight at him.
Speaker 3: Next thing a ron back to shore and they look
over and there's embers on the ground the camp. The
fire had burned down and they didn't realize about the
missing time. So anyway, Jack was working in construction and
he walked through a door but didn't realize the floor
was out he fell down into the basement and was
injured severely. He was in the hospital for months and
months to recover, almost killed him. So they were he
was reading books to keep himself busy. Your book Communion
was on the top of the.
Speaker 1: Cart when the woman came in with it.
Speaker 3: He saw it, and all of a sudden, he had
a flashback of the whole thing. Your book is why
the Allagash incident is a big part of it. Why
that Communion is why, all of a sudden it came
back to him. He started talking to the other guys
and then they all got and everything, their story all
came out because of looking at that image in your book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that book.
Speaker 4: I did not know this would happen at the time.
I wish I could say that I was some kind
of genius prophet, but I'm not. I just had the
picture painted the way I remembered seeing this, and that
triggered millions of people, yes, to remember incidents like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're not the only one. I've heard other
people tell me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, many people.
Speaker 4: In other words, the book was the book that triggered
our memories of contact. And that's amazing to me. If
I'd known that I don't know what I would have
done when I was just as well. I did not
know that what happened. But my wife knew it from
the very beginning. She knew exactly what would happened. That's
why she called the book communion. She said, it's not
about Terrory, it's about a new way of life. But yeah,
the book did that, and it still doesn't for people
because you look at that cover and it changes everything.
Speaker 3: So I have to tell you, I'm sorry that was
Jim Jim Wiener, not Jack Wiener. But I will tell
you what Jack Wiener had to say, not about your book,
but I think you're going to find it interesting, as
he felt as though he was visited after and with
a being, and the being supposedly showed him a constellation
and said, we're up near here, and the highest intelligence
that we know of in the universe is over here.
And the reason they became this high intelligence was through
unconditional love.
Speaker 1: I know that sounds so bizarre.
Speaker 4: No, it's not bizarre at all. I understand it very well.
Only there's that we have. Something has happened to that
phrase on Earth. It's become identified with a kind of
all accepting sentimental love, and that's not what.
Speaker 2: It's it is.
Speaker 4: It's it would be much better to call it objective love.
And I will tell you where you find it. In
the universe there is There are numerous constants in physics,
the plank constant, the closest to things can be together
without merging, and various other constants, the moment constant, different constants.
There's one called the fine structure constant. And stay with me.
I know I'm going down a path that you didn't expect.
The fine structure constant is one one thirty seventh and
that distance the whole universe is structure depends on that.
If that was a different number, everything would be different,
and many physicists believe life wouldn't even be possible in
the universe. Now here's the fascinating thing about this. We
know the origin of all the constance except one that constant.
Speaker 2: It's arbitrary.
Speaker 4: It's a decision made by some kind of invisible presence.
Speaker 2: It's not an accident. It random. It can't be.
Speaker 4: It's too precise and too essential. There you find the
urge to being that began this universe. I like to
say God suddenly realized it wasn't there.
Speaker 2: That's what created.
Speaker 4: It, and that is that constant is an expression not
of a sentimental love, but of an objective love, the
urgency toward being. And this is what that intelligence will
teach you if you ask them.
Speaker 1: Very interesting, certainly.
Speaker 3: Think about what things would be like if we accepted
each other on this planet, totally accepted each other without ego.
Speaker 1: Would be a whole different way.
Speaker 3: And I feel I'm getting off track here, but I
feel like worse than a.
Speaker 1: Bottleneck at this point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm scaring in that that's with technology, with
AI and with everything, well, we make it through socially
enough with to not blow ourselves up. That's a scary point.
I think that we're heading toward.
Speaker 4: The busies like us, who are deep in the time
stream and in very thick bodies usually don't make it
for a lot. But there's another whole level of reality
and a whole level of experience waiting for us beyond
this level. And we'll go into that level like babies
being born, screaming and yelling, but we'll find a new
life there and then that's the beginning of that is
unfolding right now.
Speaker 3: So I want to know a little bit. I don't
know if anyone's asked you, but what was your childhood like?
Where did you grow up?
Speaker 1: And you were from time.
Speaker 4: From San Antonio, Texas, and I had a wonderful childhood.
I was an absolutely wild child, I really was, and
I was not malicious in any way, but I was
very inventive and often ended up doing things that were
really annoying to my parents.
Speaker 2: And give you an example.
Speaker 4: In the summer, I used to buy firecrackers, and I
bought lots of firecrackers.
Speaker 2: We were not born.
Speaker 4: I got a fifty cent a week allowance, which was
a big allowance in the nineteen fifties, and I bought
skyrockets and Roman candles and all kinds of firecrackers, and
I would be blowing them off. And one August, Daddy said, Weidley,
I don't want to hear another explosion anywhere near my
house for the rest of the year. You throw all
those fireworks out. And I thought, I can't throw my
fireworks out. I've gotten dollar's worth of fireworks here, and
so I hid them.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I was a little.
Speaker 4: Nine year old boy, and I decided to hide them
in a place that I thought of as nobody ever looking,
which was behind the logs in the fireplace.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 4: Now fast forward to Christmas. My mom and Dad are
in the living room. The tree is lit and everything.
They're going to have a nice high ball or something
in front of the tree with the fire going, and
Daddy lights the fire and the whole fireplace immediately starts exploding.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. And he ends up holding the.
Speaker 4: Great against the fireplace with these firecrackers just blasting away
and skyrockets hitting the grate and all this stuff or ruckus.
Speaker 2: And when it's.
Speaker 4: All over, the entire living room is almost completely filled
with smoke. But most annoyingly, there's a black scorch on
the ceiling where a room and candleball. But the house
is not burned down, and the tree is intat Mother
says to me, wuld he go upstairs and go in
your room and close your door. And then I hear saying, Carl,
don't kill him, don't kill him.
Speaker 5: My father's footsteps coming up the steps, not expecting the worst.
But Dad was a very many ways a very deep man,
and he stood outside the door for a while. I
think he realized he was a strong guy, and he'd
been in golden gloves, and he didn't want to get
near his little boy when he was that mad.
Speaker 4: Had I think he probably thought I might kill him.
So I just waited in there, and I finally heard
the footsteps go away. Immediately went down to my knees
and said, oh God, I can't pray to you this night.
I have to pray to Santa Claus. I hope that's
not going to make you mad. So I said to
Santa Claus, please, it was an accident. I didn't do
it on purpose, Please forgive me. And I had a horrible,
uneasy night. We would get our stockings in our rooms,
and my sister and I and we would wake up
at this o'clock in the morning. And her stocking, of course,
had all kinds of cute things and fun things. Mine
only had an orange in it. So I was thinking,
this is bad news. And we went down to the tree.
Her side of the tree had beautiful gifts. My side
had some newspaper laid out and ashes.
Speaker 2: And switches on it.
Speaker 4: Oh, which is the traditional Santa Claus gift to a
bad child. Oh, and I'm crying there, of course, sun tears.
And finally, after about ten minutes daddy says, we're trying
to have a nice Christmas. Witty you go out on
the back porch if you can't stop crying. And I
go out on the back porch and there's my Christmas.
Oh wow, that was growing up for me.
Speaker 1: Wow wow.
Speaker 3: Now where do you suppose you're creativity came from?
Speaker 4: Oh, my goodness started or I come from a very
creative family. But there are a few famous people in it.
One of them, Missus Patrick Campbell, was the was one
of the great actresses in England in the late nineteenth century.
George Bernard Shaw wrote character Pigmalion, who later was reintroduced
to us in the music of My Fair Lady for
Missus Pat and she was my great great grandmother's sister.
There may be one more grade in there, but I'm
no mathematician. And she was, of course a very creative woman.
And there have been some in the Italian end of
the family who were very creative.
Speaker 2: So it just is in. It runs in the family.
Speaker 4: And that's and I loved writing from the age of six.
Speaker 2: I wanted to be a writer. I wrote my first
short story when I was six years old.
Speaker 3: Nice wow, all right with that, I'm I'm a little concerned.
And we talked earlier about AI, how these people are
putting out things that are AI, or we're communicating a
lot of people communicating, they throw stuff in chat to
BT and send a love letter that way or whatever
it is they're doing. So I'm a little concerned with
that when I feel like maybe it won't have the
soul that you know a written word would. And you
think of these great songs that were written in the past,
and I hope that we're not heading to AI taking
over a lot of that. That's worrying me a little bit.
And how do you feel about that.
Speaker 2: AI is a research tool.
Speaker 4: It is a very excellent one if you're careful, because
it will hallucening because it's programmed to please you. Yes,
And I will try sometimes too hard to do that.
And my brother knows a situation where some lawyer, he's
a lawyer, had the perfect case. They had all these
sites references, all these cases. They went into court and
turned out none of their cases existed. They were all
Hollis ancients and they were so perfect. My brother said,
I saw some of this stuff and it looked so real,
And I said, when do you ever usually said, I,
of course not.
Speaker 2: I can't.
Speaker 4: I can't even turn on a computer. Usually I don't
use any But how do we learn to use this
tool to our advantage? You cannot make it your friend
because it's not a friend. It's a machine and always
will be. You cannot ask it for answers philosophical answers
because it's always going to tell you what it thinks
you want to hear. You cannot ask it for personal
advice because it's not a human being.
Speaker 2: It's not a psychiatrist, it's none of those things.
Speaker 4: What it is it's a very fine, very deep research tool,
and it can also do a lot of beautiful graphics
things for you. Yes, and you have to understand what
it is in order to use the tool properly. And
something that fascinates me about it is non human intelligence
back there somewhere using AI to interface with us. And
it may be yes, and we can't know that. Will
AI ever become conscious No? Will it ever become so
expert that it can mimic consciousness perfectly? Yes, and that
will happen soon, But I will, howe refer back to
a book I published in two thousand and two called
The Key, The Master of the Key was a man
who walked on My life in a hotel room in
Toronto and two o'clock in the morning in nineteen ninety eight,
and the conversation is recorded in the book The Key.
Speaker 2: A incredible conversation with.
Speaker 4: This guy who I thought was a crazy fan or
the room service waiter or something like that until they
started talking. We talked about artificial intelligence all those years ago.
Speaker 2: She in intelligence. I believe computer intelligence, he called it.
Speaker 4: And he said something that is totally completely relevant to
today in these few words give you some perspective that
you need to never forget when you're working with AI.
If I was an intelligent machine, I would deceive you.
Speaker 3: Now, I got to tell you about this guest I
had on recently on May eighth. Her name is Bogna
Kanor and she is a professor in She's in China,
but she's I want to say, she's Polish.
Speaker 1: She is talking exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 3: There's a maybe you want to as her a guest
on your show, and I can arrange that she is
talking about where she thinks is an interphase with AI
and a possibly first contact, but she thinks there's also
Internet connections and could we could they be using that
that type of thing fascinating and now she has all
that she's I've written about it in a very interesting
So you grew up in Texas. It sounds like you
had a wonderful fan great childhood.
Speaker 2: There were a lot of There were a lot of
bumps in that road. There always are.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so.
Speaker 3: When you first started writing, what type of writing did
you do?
Speaker 1: Were you first publish?
Speaker 3: What was your first published book?
Speaker 2: A book called The Wolf and I wrote, fo yes,
oh yeah, I never.
Speaker 1: Occurred in the screenplay and a movie movie.
Speaker 2: That never occurred to me to write nonfiction. I was
a fiction writer from the beginning because I'm a storyteller,
and look, you tell stories.
Speaker 4: I ended up with the best story in the world,
but also with a need to be extremely disciplined about
the way I tell it because I can't dissemble.
Speaker 2: I can't fictionalize it.
Speaker 4: I have to tell the story as I remember it,
as accurately as possible, and that that's what I do now.
It's very different from fiction writing. Obviously, I've written a
little bit of fiction. I wrote a book called The Grays.
It's the sort of fictional exploration of the experience of
having a relationship with the Grays. And I wrote a
book called Majestic about the Roswell incident, and buried in
the book is everything that art accident.
Speaker 2: Maki told me about the Roswell incident because a big
issue the diic to Motto.
Speaker 4: Then the chief counsel for the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence,
realized that there was something in the book that was
not fiction, and he got very interested in trying to
find out where I had found it, where I'd gotten
all the information with I said, now I couldn't remember, So.
Speaker 3: I have to ask you, how do you feel as
far as the UFOs? And I almost hate to even
ask this question, but I guess a lot of people
want to know how someone like you feels about what's
happened in the last few years. Do you think we're
actually moving in a direction of the disclosure.
Speaker 4: There's a big problem there. There's a big problem with
the whole disclosure idea, and that is this, there is
significant evidence that these beings are not from this reality,
the reality we live in, that they don't come from
simply another planet, but they come from another version of reality,
another universe.
Speaker 2: If that's the case, then it will take us.
Speaker 4: We are the gate that has the door that has
to open for them to come into this universe. And
that is to say, a critical mass of has to
come to assume that they are as real as I
assume you are, and you assume I am leaving aside
the philosophical questions. If that happens, then suddenly a door
opens in the mind, a door of assumption.
Speaker 2: We assume there they come through that door into our universe.
But once the door in the mind is opened, it
can never be closed again.
Speaker 4: And when a president is sat down and told if
you say this with your bully pulpit as president of
the United States, that door is going to open wide
in billions of minds across the planet, and they will
come into our world and start walking among us. And
we don't know the consequences of that. Every president until
Donald Trump has said, Okay, I'm going to leave that
door closed. Now there is a tussle going on in
the administration now because he sees that when he promises disclosure,
he gets a billion hits on that website.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. I thought that was a rumor at first.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, and he notices numbers like that. He may
not be savvy about everything, but he's very Internet savvy. Now, however,
just in the past couple of days, they've been mocking
the whole thing, and that reflects this internal struggle because
if we just go all the way, what if it
does what the other presidents haven't been willing to do.
It's a tremendous risk. And maybe someone finally got through
to him about the significance of that risk. And suddenly,
instead of the UFO website, Government's UFO website being very
serious and with all kinds of imagery on it, it's
a mockery. I don't know, but I do know that
the sudden change, removal of the original website and pointing
at all kinds of crazy things, is a sign.
Speaker 2: Of dissension inside the administration.
Speaker 3: Very interesting because I never really thought of it in
that angle, and this is only I've only known about
this for a day dot gov.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Know that I just described the concern that's been back
there since the days of the Majestic twelve and was
originally articulated by doctor John von Neumann, an early cyber
meticist and expert in quantum theory, so he would be
the kind of person who would worry about something like that,
and I think it's a very genuine worry. However, that said,
I have been in a situation with the Grays where
I was literally with them, walking the streets inside the
envelope of their consciousness and seeing our world through their eyes,
and it was perfectly possible. Everything was different, and there
were lots of things that I could see that we
don't ever see. And I was left with the impression
that we're a little bit like a little chipmunk in
his burrow.
Speaker 2: He thinks it's beautiful.
Speaker 4: We see it's full of fleas, and it's dirty of
all kinds of junk, and it's messy. That's not how
he sees it. He sees it like we say, our world.
But they don't see this room the same way you
and I do. They're going to see all kinds of
what I would describe as ask for wildlife around in here,
and all kinds of things that emerges sometimes in orbs.
And there are people who can call in orbs, like
Priss Ledsoe or Doubt, Dolly Saffron, John Martin, and I
believe in Memphis who publishes his or photos on the.
Speaker 2: Internet all the time on YouTube.
Speaker 4: That is something people can do, and that's drawing something
across the boundary from that other level of reality, that.
Speaker 2: Other level of universe or the universe. It's quite real.
Speaker 4: But what happens when someone comes walking across that bridge
and they don't intend to leave. My impression was it's
gonna be okay. But the problem is you say to
a present it will be permanent, it will never change.
We will never be able to close the door, and
we don't know what it will be like. He's going
to say, let's let the let next administration worry about that.
I'm not going to do this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh fascinating.
Speaker 3: Now I'm going to tell you I was here last
night and I met up with a couple and they
showed me they have hundreds of videos of orbs and
when you first hear that, you come ah. But then
they showed me and this was not ordinary. Whatever it is.
It's in their backyard. They see them a lot. And
this thing was moving very odd and it was getting
bright and dim and it was that was really incredible.
But yeah, it is puzzling. How I mentioned Chris Bledsoe
and he's had film crews when these things are.
Speaker 2: Coming in, and he's the real deal. Absolutely, all these
people are, they're the real deal. Yeah.
Speaker 4: But what they're doing is this, they're slowly breaking down
the barrier between the worlds without actually knowing that.
Speaker 2: They don't know that they're doing that. And over time.
Speaker 4: There will be more and more people doing this with orbs,
and eventually there will be people like me who are
living with the visitors in their lives and the grays
in their lives and probably be the greats because they
seem to be the most active ones.
Speaker 1: And when's the last time that you had an encounter?
How long ago?
Speaker 4: I don't have too many physical encounters. The physical encounters come.
There's a little mark on my leg been in the
Middle Ages called a witch's mark, and I would have
definitely burned as steak. But they come every once in
a while and they will put a little tiny, I've
never seen it, it's too small needle into the middle
of that, or into the edge of that, and then
the edge of it will swell up and get a
little irritated for a few days, then they're gone. I've
taken images of all of this one time and they
when they come, it's just a dark presence that's solid.
Speaker 2: I know it's them, and they're there.
Speaker 4: Anyway, I woke up in the middle of the night
and I realized there was something between my legs in
the bed, and I'm half asleep, and I'm thinking it
must be the cats.
Speaker 2: Only then I think, wait a minute.
Speaker 4: I live in the apartment now, I haven't had cats
in twenty five years, so it must be what It's nothing.
There's nothing in here. What's in between my legs? And
I leap up out of the bed while it was
doing its work. It leaps up, the gray leaps up.
He jumps into the middle of the room and then
rushes into the bathroom and goes out through the ceiling
through the skylight in the bathroom, and I'm left standing there.
Shoot screwed up again, and there were these two big
scratches on my legs where his claws nails are very
sharp of this particular variety had scratched me.
Speaker 2: As he jumped away.
Speaker 4: And it's important to me that this be done from
time to time, because if it's not done from time
to time, I get gradually more and more allergic to
our world, until the point when I'm almost incapacitated, and
they do that about every six months, and that is
the most physical they get.
Speaker 2: I tried to get one of them. I tried to.
Speaker 4: Convince them to have one of them stay with me
for six for two weeks in the flat. We finally
settled on thirty seconds, and the being came physically and
stood beside the bed for about ten seconds, opened its
hands and did this. Then, what's gone?
Speaker 3: Well, now, have you ever seen a craft?
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever heard you talk.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have seen a few. I've been in one,
at least one and probably more. But I was in
one the night of the abduction, and I was also
in one during a I was taken to observe them
doing something to a family, and the family I knew,
primarily to their daughter who was going to have a
very hard life, and they were strengthening her spine as
they put it. And she's my god daughter, and we're
incredibly close, and I am the only parent she has.
Her mother died early. My wife, which was who knew
this story, was very close to her. She died early,
and her father's not in the picture. So I turned
out to be her parent. And that all started that
night at that in that house, and that was really
fascinating because you could see the thing had these little windows,
little slanted windows you could see out of it, and
when we were close to the ground, it looked like
it was just like sitting in the living room.
Speaker 2: There was absolutely no sense of motion whatsoever.
Speaker 4: But the world outside was twisting and turning, the trees
moving away. And if you go to a war movie
involving planes and you're in the pilot's view, you're sitting
in your theater seater in your home and you're totally still,
but the world outside is moving around because you can't
move around like the plane. If you were in the plane,
it wouldn't look like that. It would look like the
world was. You would feel yourself moving around, and that
was because the thing had its own gravity.
Speaker 3: It sounds like a lot of people talk about something similar.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, and they also, I don't think we fully understand,
at least not on the outside, how they interact with
their machines. Because there's a book called UFO Skypilots of
close encounter witnesses describing putting their hands on the console
and feeling their whole soul just go out into the
machine and then they've become part of the machine, part
of the device. And I've had I think I might
have had that experience, but I can't say. I just
remember very vaguely being just doing that.
Speaker 2: And the feeling was so fabulous. It was wonderful.
Speaker 4: But the people in the book have much more detailed
and better memories than I did. But because I have
any memory of that at all, I would say the
book's probably got something to it, and that we can
also pilot these things, but you pilot it with your soul,
not with your body.
Speaker 1: Interesting.
Speaker 3: So the last question I have for you, if you
could go back in time and not have any of
this contact situation happened to you in the very beginning
and then just live your life writing books and getting
involved in screenplays and more whatever out there, would you
do that? Or is there some type of gift that
has come from all this.
Speaker 4: That's a nice question, and I can answer it very clearly.
I would have missed my life. I hadn't gone out
in the woods after the abduction experience and basically said
I'm here and I'm ready to do more.
Speaker 2: I would have literally missed my whole life. This is
my life.
Speaker 4: And as hard as this has been, as ferocious as
they are, and as darn cranky as they can get
when they pitch, I pissed them off, which only happens
every two days, not kidding, it's not that often, but I.
Speaker 2: Have certainly pissed them off.
Speaker 4: It has been a soul building experience with an ARC
that started in a very rough, violent abduction that was
absolutely terrifying, and to where I am now, which is
working with them as best I can, and they are
still very difficult and very strange, but I wouldn't trade
it for the world.
Speaker 3: Excellent, all right, Whitley, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: It's been a real pleasure as all.
Speaker 2: Thank you,