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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 7: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 7: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 7: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 8: Good Evening. Shortly after being elected President of the United States,
Speaker 8: James Garfield was shot by Charles Guiteau. But contrary to
Speaker 8: what is written in most history books, Garfield didn't linger
Speaker 8: and die. He survived. Alexander Graham Bell raced against time
Speaker 8: to invent the world's first metal detector to locate the
Speaker 8: bullet in Garfield's body so that doctors could safely operate.
Speaker 8: Despite Bell's effort to save Garfield, however, and has never
Speaker 8: before fully revealed, the interventions of Garfield's friend and doctor,
Speaker 8: doctor D. W. Bliss, brought about the demise of the
Speaker 8: nation's twentieth president. But why would a medical doctor engage
Speaker 8: in such monstrous behavior? Did politics, spetty, jealousy, or failed
Speaker 8: aspirations spark the fire inside Bliss that led him down
Speaker 8: the path of homicide? Rosen proves how depraved indifference to
Speaker 8: human life second degree murder rather than ineptitude led to
Speaker 8: Garfield's drawn out and painful death. Now more than one
Speaker 8: hundred years later, historian and homicide investigator Fred Rosen reveals,
Speaker 8: through newly accessed documents and Bell's own core respondence, the
Speaker 8: long list of Bliss's criminal acts and malevolent motives that
Speaker 8: led to his murder of the president. The book that
Speaker 8: we're featuring this evening is Murdering the President Alexander Graham
Speaker 8: Bell and the Race to Save James Garfield, with my
Speaker 8: special guest, journalist and author Fred Rosen, and great great
Speaker 8: grandson and novelist Hank Garfield. Welcome, gentlemen to the program.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much for this interview.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for having us.
Speaker 9: This is.
Speaker 3: One of the greatest moments of my life. And I'm hey, look,
Speaker 3: how often does a dude get on a radio show
Speaker 3: with the great great grandson of the US President, who
Speaker 3: himself is a great dude, with a great Canadian dude
Speaker 3: and we get to talk about what we're going to
Speaker 3: be talking about. This is a unique experience and I
Speaker 3: don't take it for granted. Dan.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much, Fred. This is really going to
Speaker 8: be a very interesting program. I'm certain now Hank Garfield,
Speaker 8: like I mentioned, the great great grandson of the twentieth
Speaker 8: President of the United States was assassined. Well, again, we
Speaker 8: have to make sure we don't say assassinated.
Speaker 3: But was killed.
Speaker 8: So let's go back to the minute or the moment
Speaker 8: that you happen to meet Fred Rosen, and under under
Speaker 8: what circumstances in two thousand and four. So tell us
Speaker 8: about that call to Fred Rosen, Hank gars As I
Speaker 8: wrote it a forward.
Speaker 10: I'm a novelist and I had reached just recently gotten
Speaker 10: my historical novel, The Lost Woods John Cabot, had just
Speaker 10: recently been published by Simon and Schuster. And I'm sitting
Speaker 10: in my home in Belfast, me in my bathrobe, noodling
Speaker 10: on the computer as I usually do in the morning.
Speaker 10: And the phone rang and it was Fred, and we
Speaker 10: get to talking him and he introduced himself as a
Speaker 10: true crime writer who was investigating the murder of my
Speaker 10: great great grandfather, And so we get to talking about
Speaker 10: writing and this and that and the other thing, and
Speaker 10: finally Fred says, you know, you sound like a pretty
Speaker 10: normal guy. I thought I was going to get one
Speaker 10: of the Kennedy's on the phone. So I'm sitting there,
Speaker 10: you know, in my bathrobe, sipping my coffee and my
Speaker 10: house in Maine and thinking how much how much more
Speaker 10: normal can can you be? So over the course of
Speaker 10: the next several years, Fred and I talked on the
Speaker 10: phone and corresponded a lot, and there were some you know,
Speaker 10: frustrations and getting his book published. But here it is,
Speaker 10: and I was happy to write the forward.
Speaker 8: Yes, Fred, we're talking about a real long process. What
Speaker 8: was the impetus for this book? What was that where
Speaker 8: you had that idea. I'm glad to write this book
Speaker 8: because it is a little out of the norm for you.
Speaker 8: So give us that moment that it became evident that
Speaker 8: you were going to write this, And why.
Speaker 3: If I never said it before? Dan, you asked the
Speaker 3: best questions. And what happened was I was in I
Speaker 3: was in Michigan, and I was researching another book, and
Speaker 3: I came across a paper written by Alexander Graham Bell
Speaker 3: for a scientific journal. There was a paper he wrote
Speaker 3: in about eighteen eighty two, and I'm reading this paper
Speaker 3: and he talks about inventing the world's first metal detech
Speaker 3: to locate the bullet to president's body so they could
Speaker 3: operate without damaging him. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking,
Speaker 3: excuse me, they never taught me this in school, you know.
Speaker 3: And then the other thing Dan was this and you'll
Speaker 3: get it, and you know, which is doctor Bell was
Speaker 3: writing it like he wanted somebody to investigate what happened,
Speaker 3: and you know, he was like leaving something behind, and
Speaker 3: so that really got me interested. And I didn't know
Speaker 3: anything about any of this, you know, And I mean,
Speaker 3: to me, James Garfield was a cipher and so I
Speaker 3: started looking into it, and it took another fourteen years
Speaker 3: to you know, of you know, this snat, to finally
Speaker 3: get a publisher to publish the book, and in the process,
Speaker 3: I discovered that he that James garf you know, unlike
Speaker 3: what has been reported by the popular press, not only
Speaker 3: was James Garfield not assassinated, he was deliberately murdered by
Speaker 3: his doctor, Willard Bliss. And I found all the evidence,
Speaker 3: and Bell left a lot of it behind, you know,
Speaker 3: And I felt, as I went along in this whole process,
Speaker 3: that he was leaving it behind for somebody to find it.
Speaker 3: And I just happened to be the dude, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean, And that was it, you know, and
Speaker 3: I put it together, and you know, I was finally
Speaker 3: lucky enough to get a publisher that was willing to
Speaker 3: publish this because in other books that have been published
Speaker 3: about James Garfield, they claimed that it was a lack
Speaker 3: of sepsist that led to his death. That's not true.
Speaker 3: It's just not true. And you know, because of the
Speaker 3: fact that I was not only an historian, but a
Speaker 3: homicide investigated just like you are, I was able to
Speaker 3: get into it. And in the process, as I became
Speaker 3: friendly with Hank and we became friends, it became personal.
Speaker 3: You know, I mean, this is my friend's great great granddaddy.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean. I mean, how am I
Speaker 3: supposed you know, I gotta do something about this? So
Speaker 3: I did.
Speaker 8: Now, Hank, when we mentioned it was very funny, and
Speaker 8: you talk about it in the book as well. You
Speaker 8: talk about Fred initially calling you and saying, oh, Jesuz,
Speaker 8: it's not really normal. I thought I might get to Kennedys.
Speaker 8: So you guys weren't the Kennedy's, but you did have
Speaker 8: a big family, and obviously, as we find out in
Speaker 8: this book, there was quite an influence personally, politically, professionally.
Speaker 8: So tell us what well that influence was. What did
Speaker 8: your family tree look like in terms especially politically, But
Speaker 8: tell us a little bit about the family after James Garfield.
Speaker 10: Sure, well, when I was growing up, you know, it
Speaker 10: was I mean, I'm not sure when I when I
Speaker 10: first knew that, you know, I had a president in
Speaker 10: my ancestry, but pretty early in my life.
Speaker 9: But it was never really talked about.
Speaker 10: You know, it certainly wasn't a topic of dinner table conversation.
Speaker 10: You know, yeah, it's a great great grandson of a president,
Speaker 10: but uh, and and he did that. The president did
Speaker 10: have four sons, and they all had sons and so
Speaker 10: and and.
Speaker 9: And daughters as well. But there are a lot of Garfields.
Speaker 10: Around the country, uh that that I haven't even met,
Speaker 10: and and so so. So it is a large family.
Speaker 10: But you know, it wasn't really a topic of discussion.
Speaker 10: And what I what I've learned about the specifics of
Speaker 10: his shooting and death really came after after high school,
Speaker 10: you know, later later in life, when I started reading
Speaker 10: about it and I started delving into it a little
Speaker 10: bit more. But it wasn't anything that you know, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 10: I grew up with it, and I remember my father
Speaker 10: got mad at me one time for trying to get
Speaker 10: into a high school basketball game but I didn't have
Speaker 10: the money for admission, and say, I said something like,
Speaker 10: you're turning away the great great grandson of a president,
Speaker 10: and rightfully, my father, you know, upbraided me for it,
Speaker 10: because you know, it's just being an arrogant teenager. But
Speaker 10: uh so, so as far as my day to day
Speaker 10: life went, being the descendant of a president was no
Speaker 10: big deal.
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's pretty interesting though, isn't it.
Speaker 10: Well, yeah, I mean it was. It's it's a has
Speaker 10: been an interesting footnote.
Speaker 9: In my life.
Speaker 10: And you know, people ask me, well, are you related
Speaker 10: to the president? And you know, I've had the experience
Speaker 10: on a few occasions where where somebody will say, well,
Speaker 10: are you related to the president and I'll say, well, yes,
Speaker 10: I'm his great great grandson and they'll respond no way,
Speaker 10: to which I just laughed and said, well you asked me,
Speaker 10: I mean, you know, but so. But but you know,
Speaker 10: as far as my day to day life, until I
Speaker 10: got interested in the topic of his death and what
Speaker 10: could have been, you know, what could have been is
Speaker 10: an interesting topic because you know, when I read Fred's book,
Speaker 10: and I started reading and and and some other things,
Speaker 10: and I started reading about the mistreatment that he suffered
Speaker 10: at the hands of his doctor. I got mad. I mean,
Speaker 10: I know it happened one hundred and forty years ago,
Speaker 10: but you know, it made me angry. And you know,
Speaker 10: I was surprised that there is that immediacy to my reaction,
Speaker 10: because he could have been He was a very learned,
Speaker 10: incapable man, and he could have been a great president.
Speaker 9: And that was just cut short man.
Speaker 3: May I add dan that James Garfield was in the
Speaker 3: same I don't know if category is the right word,
Speaker 3: but he was in the same category as Thomas Jefferson
Speaker 3: in terms of being one of our most brilliant presidents.
Speaker 3: This guy and not only that, Oh my god, he
Speaker 3: You know what I got into when I wrote the
Speaker 3: book was, you know, I knew that I had to
Speaker 3: write about him, not just when he got shot, but before,
Speaker 3: because nobody knew who the dude was, so I was
Speaker 3: able to find out and this was all, you know,
Speaker 3: pretty common knowledge. This guy was one of the bravest
Speaker 3: Americans that ever existed, and during the Civil War he
Speaker 3: rode under enemy fire. It's a really cool. It's my
Speaker 3: favorite scene in the book. He rode under enemy fire
Speaker 3: to save the army. We had two armies, the Army
Speaker 3: of the Potomac and the Army of the Ohio. He
Speaker 3: rode under enemy fire, to say, the Army of the
Speaker 3: Ohio at the Battle of Chickamaugua in Georgia, and they
Speaker 3: were the Confederates were shooting at this dude. And when
Speaker 3: he got to where he had to go, his horse
Speaker 3: collapsed from bullet wounds. I mean, you can't make this
Speaker 3: stuff up, you know. And I, you know, Hank and
Speaker 3: I have discussed about what would have happened in history
Speaker 3: had James and I prefer I like to call him James,
Speaker 3: So Hank and I we called him Jack for a
Speaker 3: long time, you know, like the teen the show. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but we don't want to get we don't want to
Speaker 3: give a a a plug. Donald Bellisario produced the show.
Speaker 3: But that's another story. But here's the thing. Here's the thing.
Speaker 3: This guy was willing to live, to give up his
Speaker 3: life to save the Union. He was willing to do
Speaker 3: this to make sure that African Americans were free. And
Speaker 3: you know what, as I'm writing this, I'm going, where
Speaker 3: are these people. This guy was cool, you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: you know, you know, if this was a different age,
Speaker 3: Steve McQueen would be playing them, you know what I mean. Uh,
Speaker 3: he was just.
Speaker 10: At the piercing blue eyes.
Speaker 9: He could play.
Speaker 3: Him exactly, thank you, you know. And you know, but
Speaker 3: as I got into this, the other thing I realized
Speaker 3: was that Dan, which was that I felt that not
Speaker 3: only was Hank relying on me to tell the truth
Speaker 3: about what happened, So it was James Garfield because and
Speaker 3: I've talked to you about this on your show. I
Speaker 3: speak for the dead and that's my job. And here
Speaker 3: was a wonderful, wonderful president. This is a guy who
Speaker 3: saved lives. You know. Here we are in the middle
Speaker 3: of a campaign right now in America the president, and
Speaker 3: nobody's talking about she who saved lives. Well, James Garfield did.
Speaker 3: And I might add he was a Republican.
Speaker 10: Well, we're not going to day when Republicans were reasonable.
Speaker 3: Well exactly, you know, and and and exactly Hank, and
Speaker 3: you know, so it's it's you know, but the thing
Speaker 3: that really got me, Dan is just that all of
Speaker 3: this stuff has gotten lost and that really bugs me.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean it's like it's.
Speaker 8: Obviously we're dealing with a different we're we're dealing with
Speaker 8: different people, So maybe it was a more reasonable time.
Speaker 8: Obviously we're this country is our country. The whole world's
Speaker 8: a little bit out of control, if you think in
Speaker 8: terms of and in terms of the kind of things,
Speaker 8: the kind of bravery that James Garfield, the kind of
Speaker 8: the the effort he put into being a you know,
Speaker 8: a war strategist, a president bucking his own system, as
Speaker 8: you're right in there, bucking his own system. He he
Speaker 8: really didn't make it himself popular within his own party
Speaker 8: because he had these ethics. He had this thing that
Speaker 8: he didn't want the bribery involved with the postal service,
Speaker 8: so he stood up to people in his own party.
Speaker 8: So again, very unusual, I mean unusual period. So this
Speaker 8: was a remarkable man. Now what I found was amazing
Speaker 8: is then early on there is the chance circumstance that
Speaker 8: doctor Bliss who eventually becomes a doctor, but at that
Speaker 8: time he's just d Willard Bliss, and twenty year old
Speaker 8: Dames Garfield is just a guy that well he was
Speaker 8: born in a log cabin, so very much like this
Speaker 8: Abe Lincoln kind of thing. He came from humble roots,
Speaker 8: and at twenty years old he wasn't so successful. So
Speaker 8: Fred tell us what he was doing at twenty years old?
Speaker 8: And how did he meet doctor or pardon me, d
Speaker 8: Willard Bliss.
Speaker 3: No, he said it correctly. Will We should explain. That
Speaker 3: was one of the things. By the way, when we
Speaker 3: wrote the book is for some reason he was named
Speaker 3: doctor do O k T E R. And then he
Speaker 3: later changed it, so his doctor doctor Willard Bliss, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. And you know, so we had
Speaker 3: to change it. And what happened was James Garfield was
Speaker 3: about oh twenty twenty one, and he was he was
Speaker 3: he was walk walking walking to the Western Eclectic Institute
Speaker 3: in Ohio, and he had some money in his pocket,
Speaker 3: you know, in a wallet. He put the you know,
Speaker 3: and he took off. It was a hot day, so
Speaker 3: he took off the jacket that he was wearing and
Speaker 3: the the the wallet fell out of the pocket. When
Speaker 3: he realized that, he retraced the steps and he finds
Speaker 3: some dude holding the wallet, and it was Willard Bliss,
Speaker 3: and they introduced each other and they became at that
Speaker 3: moment friends, and Bliss gave him back the wallet, and
Speaker 3: then Garfield went to school and Bliss went to Grand Rapids, Michigan,
Speaker 3: which he was on his way to relocate. And at
Speaker 3: that point they you know, they had like a friendship,
Speaker 3: but they didn't. It wasn't like they kept in contact
Speaker 3: until much much later on. However, Willet Bliss was associatepath
Speaker 3: and so what he did was he leveraged his association
Speaker 3: with James Garfield eventually to help him in his career.
Speaker 3: And this guy turned out to be the name of
Speaker 3: this show is true Murder with Dan Zupanski. This guy
Speaker 3: turned out to be one of the worst his I've
Speaker 3: ever covered because he used his association with James Garfield
Speaker 3: and subsequently his association with Abraham Lincoln to make money
Speaker 3: even though he was the worst piece of you know
Speaker 3: what you could possibly imagine? Did I say that? Well?
Speaker 8: Sure, now let's take us back to because this story
Speaker 8: is just amazing. The the the cast of real characters
Speaker 8: in this is got Abraham Lincoln and John Wilkes, Booth
Speaker 8: and Custer and wyatt ierp and like you say, Bat
Speaker 8: Masterson and everybody, Oh God ever think of God and
Speaker 8: God bless you.
Speaker 3: Danfer mentioning all of them, Thank you, sir, keep.
Speaker 8: Going and and and just if there is a slice
Speaker 8: of American history that people would want to read about
Speaker 8: that would find fascinating that they think they know something about.
Speaker 8: I mean, everybody's in this in this book. They're in there,
Speaker 8: every important figure that you ever could think of. And
Speaker 8: especially again just rewriting history here. So why is it important? Again,
Speaker 8: it's fascinating. We have Abraham Lincoln's assassination and his presidency,
Speaker 8: and some of the work that he did is in
Speaker 8: this book. But introduce how this doctor Bliss becomes involved
Speaker 8: with Abraham Lincoln and subsequently the story of assassination.
Speaker 3: Okay, all I want to say is if I started
Speaker 3: sounding like Sammy Davis here and here, just not me,
Speaker 3: because Sammy used to you know, he used to like
Speaker 3: kiss write, But that's not me. The thing is what
Speaker 3: happened was doctor Bliss was from was from Michigan, at
Speaker 3: least that's where he wound up going to and a
Speaker 3: senator from Michigan got him a gig as the dude
Speaker 3: who would form and become the head of Armory Square
Speaker 3: Hospital on the National Mall, a vet's hospital. Do they
Speaker 3: call it Dan? Do they call that? Do they call
Speaker 3: it in Canada vet's hospital.
Speaker 8: No, we don't have a specific veteran's hospital.
Speaker 3: Nomb okay. So this was like a vet's hospital on
Speaker 3: the mall. And so in other words, it's down the
Speaker 3: block from the White House, and and and so like
Speaker 3: Bliss is the head dude, and Lincoln would show up,
Speaker 3: you know, in those days, the President would just show up,
Speaker 3: I guess, you know, and he sort of tour the
Speaker 3: wards and so forth and so on. And that's why
Speaker 3: I was able to get in some information regarding with
Speaker 3: men who was one of the aides in the war. Anyway,
Speaker 3: long story short, this is where it really gets interesting.
Speaker 3: Bliss thought he was an inventor, and Lincoln with finances inventions,
Speaker 3: and they all failed. And so what happened was eventually
Speaker 3: the President Lincoln, you know, went to Ford's Theater was
Speaker 3: shot by John Willis Boot And it happened that by coincidence,
Speaker 3: Charles Leal, a doctor from Yonkers, New York, was there,
Speaker 3: and Leo worked for Bliss at the at the hospital.
Speaker 3: So after, you know, after they treated Lincoln on the spot,
Speaker 3: they moved him across the street to uh to Pyrson's
Speaker 3: boarding house, and then they summoned various doctors to come
Speaker 3: in out. So what does he do. He summons his boss,
Speaker 3: who's Willard Bliss. Will get this. This is the one
Speaker 3: part that's really interesting. Bliss was supposed to be a surgeon.
Speaker 3: And in those days, what they did was when they
Speaker 3: tried to find the bullet in a person's body, and
Speaker 3: then we're talking eighteen sixty five, they used a wire
Speaker 3: to which was attached a piece of porcelain. It was
Speaker 3: called a neloton probe, and when they put it into
Speaker 3: the wound, if it touched the bullet, the porcelain would
Speaker 3: turn green. Well, for some reason, doctor Leo would not
Speaker 3: allow his boss to even touch President Lincoln. Somebody else
Speaker 3: did it, another doctor, you know, stay and I'm looking
Speaker 3: at this, and I'm going, what's this about? You know?
Speaker 3: And that got me into continuing to look at what
Speaker 3: Bliss's record was subsequently after President Lincoln died, and what
Speaker 3: I discovered was that he used his association with Lincoln's
Speaker 3: assassination to help propel his medical career, even though he
Speaker 3: never treated him. And subsequently, in the eighteen seventies, doctor
Speaker 3: Bliss claimed he had a cure for cancer, which even
Speaker 3: in those days people said, this is a bunch of crap.
Speaker 3: That's when I knew I was dealing with a criminal.
Speaker 8: That cancer cure, though, like you say, even today would
Speaker 8: be scrutinized and probably most people be totally skeptical. What
Speaker 8: was the what was the initial reaction for that cancer
Speaker 8: cure and what happened afterwards?
Speaker 3: Well, what happened was the initial reaction was that something
Speaker 3: you know, some keep of course, people who had cancer,
Speaker 3: they were like, oh my god, if somebody's got a cure.
Speaker 3: But our friends at the New York Times covered it.
Speaker 3: It's a little available online, and what they discovered was
Speaker 3: that none of it worked. And what it was was
Speaker 3: it was Bliss claimed that the it was Conderango. That
Speaker 3: was the name of it, and I hope I've pronounced
Speaker 3: it correctly. It was a bark from a tree in
Speaker 3: South America, and Bliss claimed that this bark could cure cancer. Dull,
Speaker 3: you know, and he tried to market it very successfully,
Speaker 3: and it was marketed and people, you know, brought into
Speaker 3: this sham and again there's you know, there's there's nothing
Speaker 3: unusual here. You know, you're talking to the guy whose
Speaker 3: first true crime book was Doctor from Al You know.
Speaker 3: So this was a doctor from l so he claimed
Speaker 3: that he found a cure for cancer, and people brought
Speaker 3: into it though there was no really objective reporting on this,
Speaker 3: including from the New York Times. Sorry, you know, they
Speaker 3: were my first job out of graduate school. So the
Speaker 3: left and I want to do his criticize the Times,
Speaker 3: but there is going back eighteen, you know, seventy something,
Speaker 3: you know, and the bottom line is that you know,
Speaker 3: he he get a lot of money off you know,
Speaker 3: like any Charlottan would.
Speaker 8: Right, Hank. I wanted to ask you in nineteen eighty eight,
Speaker 8: as you write in the book, you wrote a piece
Speaker 8: about the Republican Convention of eighteen eighty So what did
Speaker 8: you tell us about the rise of your father or
Speaker 8: a great great grandfather? Pardon me? Politically it wasn't an
Speaker 8: easy route, and so tell us about the circumstances that.
Speaker 10: You know about in your own you mentioned something that
Speaker 10: Garfield was not necessarily he's somewhat at odds with his
Speaker 10: own political party, which he came to be the nominee
Speaker 10: in eighteen eighty as a result of a badly split
Speaker 10: Republican convention. There were two factions in the Republican Party
Speaker 10: there were the stalwarts who were loyal to former president
Speaker 10: and Civil War hero Ulysses S. Grant, and there were
Speaker 10: the half breeds whose candidate was James G. Blaine of Maine.
Speaker 10: And there was a third candidate from Ohio, sort of
Speaker 10: a favorite son candidate from Ohio named John Sherman. And
Speaker 10: Grant had been out.
Speaker 3: Of office for four years.
Speaker 10: He'd served two terms as president. There's been a lot
Speaker 10: of patronage and a lot of corruption in his administration,
Speaker 10: but he'd gone off for four years and was still
Speaker 10: a very popular figure and was seeking a third term.
Speaker 10: And the half breed faction that wanted to reform the
Speaker 10: patronage system was backing Blaine and was very much opposed
Speaker 10: to Grant getting a third term.
Speaker 9: And so the.
Speaker 10: Convention went through thirty six ballots, and Garfield was sort
Speaker 10: of well known as a congressman. He'd been a congressman
Speaker 10: after the Civil War. He had gone into Congress from Ohio,
Speaker 10: and on the thirty sixth ballot, the convention turned to
Speaker 10: him as a compromised candidate, and all the all the
Speaker 10: half breeds and the people who'd been supporting Sherman, they
Speaker 10: sort of marshaled forces against the Stalwarts and uh gave
Speaker 10: Garfield the votes to to become the nominee, and which
Speaker 10: eventually led to him getting shot.
Speaker 9: By Charles Guiteau.
Speaker 10: Because Charles Guiteau was a he he was he was
Speaker 10: mentally ill, but he was also uh had he had
Speaker 10: delusions that he that he he that he was qualified
Speaker 10: for a political appointment and and Garfield told him no.
Speaker 10: But uh so, So Garfield was a compromised candidate between
Speaker 10: these two factions, and the the vice presidential nominee was
Speaker 10: kind of a political hack for the stalwarts. Chester Arthur
Speaker 10: he was I think he ran the port of New
Speaker 10: York and so he was put on the ticket to
Speaker 10: kind of unify the party. And he chose first words
Speaker 10: when he shot my great great grandfather or something along
Speaker 10: the lines of I am a Stalwart and Arthur.
Speaker 9: Will be president.
Speaker 10: So the whole shooting came out of this very contentious
Speaker 10: Republican convention which nominated my.
Speaker 9: Great great grandfather.
Speaker 8: Now how does again, how do Fred how does Bliss
Speaker 8: end up anywhere involved with this other than it's his friend?
Speaker 8: But also give us the details on it wasn't just Bliss,
Speaker 8: there was other people there and this was very this
Speaker 8: was serious. So how did they proceed and how did
Speaker 8: Bliss proceed? We've kind of drawn pick to a little
Speaker 8: but about his character being a charlatan. So how does
Speaker 8: he proceed and how do things proceed?
Speaker 3: Before I answer that question, can I just say that
Speaker 3: a lot of people that interview you when you write
Speaker 3: a book and never read the book, you're different.
Speaker 9: Uh too, You're you're very dead.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna tell you the answer. What happens
Speaker 3: is it's really something. When Abraham Lincoln gets hut, they
Speaker 3: call Charles Leo is the first doctor on the scene
Speaker 3: because he's he showed he's right at he's there when
Speaker 3: uh uh John Wills boots she's the president. And so
Speaker 3: when they when when they move him across the street,
Speaker 3: you know, to take a look at what's going down,
Speaker 3: you know, and how he is. He calls in his
Speaker 3: boss at Armory Square Hospital, who's Willard Bliss. Willard Bliss
Speaker 3: shows up, but his word gets really interesting. He doesn't
Speaker 3: let Willard Blyss touch the president when it came time
Speaker 3: to explore for the bullet, and the President said, this
Speaker 3: surgeon general does it. And I'm going, what's this about?
Speaker 3: You know? Se go a little bit forward, you know.
Speaker 3: And what happens is Bob Lincoln, who is the President's son,
Speaker 3: he's not around while his daddy is getting treated because
Speaker 3: hey man, it's like really upsetting. But he knows about
Speaker 3: Willard Blyss. And so when fade out, fade in, when
Speaker 3: James Garfield is shot, it happens that Bob link And
Speaker 3: is the President's Secretary of the War. I was about
Speaker 3: to say defense, but it was, you know, different, And
Speaker 3: so he he summons the same dude that treated his dad.
Speaker 3: But he doesn't realize that his dad was never treated
Speaker 3: by Bliss. So Bliss shows up, and Bliss has already
Speaker 3: had all these problems, you know, up and down as
Speaker 3: far as his reputation, and he's already been found to
Speaker 3: this dude. Bliss ran the other way at bull Run. Okay,
Speaker 3: he he was a coward and he but he managed
Speaker 3: to use the right political influence to get him out
Speaker 3: of it. But nobody knew this. So the bottom line
Speaker 3: is Bob Lincoln summons him as secretary of War to
Speaker 3: treat Jams Garfield and as soon as Bliss goes up control.
Speaker 3: That's the operative part of this.
Speaker 10: Can I just jump in and add something here?
Speaker 3: Yes, sir, okay, because because I mean.
Speaker 10: You should be pointed out that there were two different,
Speaker 10: two very different wounds, that that Abraham Lincoln really was
Speaker 10: mortally wounded. He was shot in the head, whereas James
Speaker 10: Garfield was shot in the back and and and at
Speaker 10: the time, you know, we're less than twenty years out
Speaker 10: from the Civil War, and there's there are all kinds
Speaker 10: of Civil War veterans walking around with bullets in them
Speaker 10: and they're fine. And and you know, the body in
Speaker 10: cases a bullet if it's not in a mortal area.
Speaker 10: Uh So, the bottom line is that if his if
Speaker 10: he had not been treated.
Speaker 9: At all, he would have left.
Speaker 10: If his doctors, if blissed, his doctors had done nothing
Speaker 10: to James Garfield, he would have lived.
Speaker 3: With The correct term is the bullet had insisted thank you,
Speaker 3: thank you. Yeah. Oh look, you know, uh, you know,
Speaker 3: I realized we're talking very seriously and we're supposed to
Speaker 3: be selling books. But the bottom line is he's a
Speaker 3: Red Sox fan on the next fan and we both
Speaker 3: ag reading that shouldn't have won the World Series in
Speaker 3: eighty six. Okay, I got it in, I got it in,
Speaker 3: I got it in tangent.
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's all right. The Red Sox eventually won. You know, yes,
Speaker 9: that was that was a horrible, horrible, horrible world series
Speaker 9: though I.
Speaker 3: Did, but there was very you know something. Then. The
Speaker 3: thing that really gets me about it is just the
Speaker 3: fact that this kindness was as good a con man
Speaker 3: as any one. I okay, and.
Speaker 8: I just missed that, Fred, Fred, we just I did
Speaker 8: not with you just said sorry, okay.
Speaker 3: I said that Bliss was as good a corn man
Speaker 3: as any of us have ever encountered. All right, that's it,
Speaker 3: bottom line, he was. This guy was incredible.
Speaker 8: Before we go on and talk about the specifics, and again,
Speaker 8: it's great that Hank knows these specifics too about because
Speaker 8: that's really the big part of the story and the
Speaker 8: reason why history book is being rewritten now. History is
Speaker 8: being rewritten now with this because it's not as simple
Speaker 8: as a bullet going in a body, Like you say,
Speaker 8: guys are walking around with these bullets even at that time,
Speaker 8: So what did happen? But before we do that, Fred,
Speaker 8: let's introduce because there's another very important character in this book,
Speaker 8: to say the least, Alexander Graham Bell. Now he's born
Speaker 8: in Canada in the United States and he's a bona
Speaker 8: fide inventor. So how does he come what is he
Speaker 8: doing around this time? And what's his influence and what's
Speaker 8: his thatcher and what is he working on? Before James
Speaker 8: Garfield is shot, step.
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Speaker 3: What a great question. What happens is Alexander Graham Bell immigrates,
Speaker 3: immigrates rather excuse me, immigrates to Canada with his parents
Speaker 3: in the early eighteen seventies, and he winds up not
Speaker 3: too far from you, someplace in Toronto, Okay. And his
Speaker 3: daddy is a speech teacher. He teaches the death and
Speaker 3: he has a system of communicating this is wonderful stuff
Speaker 3: with the death. And so Alexander Graham Bell gets into
Speaker 3: this stuff. And simultaneous to this, he winds up going
Speaker 3: down to you know, he gets in tight with some
Speaker 3: dude in Leland who is dad he is friends with.
Speaker 3: And this guy's got a daughter, Mabel Gardner, Mabel Wardner,
Speaker 3: who is a who's deaf, and so Alexander Graham Bell,
Speaker 3: who by the way, always looked older. I love this part.
Speaker 3: When I read it, Prispell talked about it. Dude, he
Speaker 3: had his beard, you know, and he's one of those
Speaker 3: people with the beard who looked older and he knew it. Well.
Speaker 3: He winds up going down to Boston and he's with
Speaker 3: this millionaire dude and he's educating his seventeen year old daughter, Mabel,
Speaker 3: and he falls in love with her. But he but
Speaker 3: he's like, oh man, he's ten years older or something
Speaker 3: like that, you know what I mean. And it's so
Speaker 3: fascinating because I didn't know any of this. Like what
Speaker 3: happens is Bell, he doesn't have any money. Gee, that's
Speaker 3: not something I can relate to, duh. And he decides, amen,
Speaker 3: I got to get the money to marry this girl.
Speaker 3: So you know what he does. He decides to try
Speaker 3: to invent a method of communicating by telegraph two ways
Speaker 3: is opposed to one way, and he tries to sell
Speaker 3: that and it does. And what happens is it turns
Speaker 3: out that some big shot in New York is working
Speaker 3: with another dude on this and he tries to steal
Speaker 3: his idea and Alexander Graham Bell, I mean, Dan, this
Speaker 3: dude's in action hero. He basically tells this guy, f
Speaker 3: you okay, And eventually what happens is he decides to
Speaker 3: work on the phone, communicating through a phone you know,
Speaker 3: you know, and he decides to do that, and that's
Speaker 3: where to me it really gets interesting because it turns
Speaker 3: out that, as I point out in the book, the
Speaker 3: day that he will showcase or introduce his invention the
Speaker 3: telephone at the Philadelphia Exposition June twenty fifth, eighteen seventy six, simultiney,
Speaker 3: George Armstrong Custer is riding down into the Little Bighorn
Speaker 3: Valley to his eventual destiny. And George Custer is in
Speaker 3: the book earlier when he was a courier. Yes, sir,
Speaker 3: he was a courier. By the way, we're I haven't
Speaker 3: mentioned this to you, Hank, but we're Our agent is
Speaker 3: sending out the proposal. So I proposed putting Chris Hemsworth
Speaker 3: in as as as a cust my agent, and my
Speaker 3: agent goes, Fred, is this a superhero flip? I said, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, but seriously, seriously, here's what happened. So, you know,
Speaker 3: it's fascinating stuff to me, you know, because they don't
Speaker 3: teach any of this stuff at school, and I don't
Speaker 3: know why, but you know, Bell is you know. It
Speaker 3: turns out that there was another dude who was trying
Speaker 3: to rip him off at the time in terms of
Speaker 3: his invention. And while this is happening, you know, Garfield's
Speaker 3: wife and I cut back and forth in the book
Speaker 3: is proceeding alongster line, and James is the head dude
Speaker 3: in Congress in the House of Representatives, and Ulysses Grand
Speaker 3: who is not the nicest guy in the world, I
Speaker 3: might head sends him to Montana to make a treaty
Speaker 3: with the Salish Indians also known as the flat At Indians.
Speaker 3: And on the way there he passes a group of
Speaker 3: dudes doing a buffalo hunt and in that group are
Speaker 3: Fat Masterson and why Europe And that got me into this,
Speaker 3: you know, getting into you know, how Americans treated Native Americans.
Speaker 3: And I discovered that back in the eighteen thirties when
Speaker 3: Congress passed the Indian Removal Act. I don't think parliament
Speaker 3: Dan would ever do this, Okay, But Congress passed the
Speaker 3: Indian Removal Act and they took all the Indians from
Speaker 3: the East Coast. They moved them over to what became Oklahoma,
Speaker 3: also known as Indian Territory. And there was only one
Speaker 3: representative in Congress that spoke up against it, Davy Crockett,
Speaker 3: King of the Wild Frontier, Okay, And I think that
Speaker 3: is fascinating stops, you know what I mean. And isn't
Speaker 3: it interesting when you find out that heroes you've grown
Speaker 3: up with on TV and so forth were real, let alone,
Speaker 3: they really believed in what they did. And James Garfield
Speaker 3: goes out to Montana and he's up against the wall.
Speaker 3: If he doesn't make a deal with the Indians, they
Speaker 3: need to move him from one reservation to another. If
Speaker 3: they don't do it, Custer's gonna come in and shoot him.
Speaker 3: And James makes the deal. And that's what gets me
Speaker 3: about this about Hank's great great granddaddy, you know. And
Speaker 3: as we're talking, I'm sitting here and I'm thinking to myself,
Speaker 3: oh my god, thank God to James Garfield, because without him,
Speaker 3: Hank's not here, you know, And I mean it, and
Speaker 3: you know, you know, this is real stuff to me. Dan,
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. I don't have to tell
Speaker 3: you what it means to work with people who are
Speaker 3: whose family have been victimized by murder.
Speaker 8: Now let's get back to James Harfield and doctor Bliss,
Speaker 8: because one person, because they have this long friendship and
Speaker 8: of course, like you pointed out, that he's manipulated the
Speaker 8: situation and parlayed his influence even though he's not a
Speaker 8: qualified surgeon. And that's why these people aren't letting him
Speaker 8: do anything if they can help it. But Abra, pardon me,
Speaker 8: Alexander Graham Bell, while being somewhat naive at certain times,
Speaker 8: is a little more skeptical of this doctor Bliss. So
Speaker 8: tell us how he becomes involved. We alluded to it.
Speaker 8: We talked about the first metal detector. It's incredible, the
Speaker 8: first metal detector.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 8: So tell us what Graham Bell's motivation was and tell
Speaker 8: us first the event where James Garfield is shot again.
Speaker 8: We talked about this insane Charles Guittau. But tell us
Speaker 8: about the event and tell us about what his condition was.
Speaker 8: We talked, Hank talked about a bullet being in a
Speaker 8: body is not necessarily a death sentence, So correct what
Speaker 8: became circumstances that? Tell us about that.
Speaker 3: I just have one quick question though, before I answer.
Speaker 3: Are you a Blue Jays fan? Yes, Hank, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: leave that to you afterwards.
Speaker 10: Okay, that socks are chasing the blue Jays right now?
Speaker 10: Here's not very well.
Speaker 3: But here's what happens. James Garfield goes to the in
Speaker 3: eighteen eighty one, in July of eighteen eighty one, he
Speaker 3: goes to this. In other days, they had like a
Speaker 3: railroad spur in the middle of Washington, DC. And he's
Speaker 3: going to get on the you know, he's gonna get
Speaker 3: on the railroad and he's going to go back. His
Speaker 3: wife is in New Jersey for this summer, okay, dall,
Speaker 3: you know, sort of like what the people do today,
Speaker 3: and he's going to go back, you know, let see
Speaker 3: his wife. And then he's going to go north to
Speaker 3: Massachusetts where he went to school, and he's going to
Speaker 3: go to a school union. Well, Charles Gateau was was
Speaker 3: a what today we would call a a not as sociopath,
Speaker 3: not a psychopath help me out, guys, yeah, thank you,
Speaker 3: schizophrenic exactly. And so what happens is because of the
Speaker 3: fact that this, you know, this is in those days.
Speaker 3: If you worked for a president now it's only eighteen
Speaker 3: eighty one, it's not that long ago. It's eight you know,
Speaker 3: it's by tank seven, maybe one hundred and thirty years ago. Well,
Speaker 3: if you worked for president and you know, you would
Speaker 3: be able to get an audience with the dude and say, oh,
Speaker 3: give me a job so good Toe shows up at
Speaker 3: the White Houses to the President, give me a job,
Speaker 3: and the President says, take a walk, basically.
Speaker 10: Because it's actually James Blaine who turned him away and said,
Speaker 10: don't ever show up here.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, exact, thank you. What we got to change
Speaker 3: that in the next version of the book. And and
Speaker 3: then what happens is good Toe starts today what we
Speaker 3: would call stalking him and he's gonna first he's gonna
Speaker 3: shoot him someplace where he's with his wife who craty ship,
Speaker 3: but he decides not to because he doesn't want to looksetter.
Speaker 3: Bottom line is he winds up showing you know, James
Speaker 3: goes to this to the railroad station in eighteen eighty
Speaker 3: one in July, Goodteau meets him in the in the
Speaker 3: railroad station, comes out of some waiting room and shoots
Speaker 3: him twice, and with the second bullet does the first
Speaker 3: bullet doesn't do any damage, the second goes into his back,
Speaker 3: and nobody knows at that point it's been safely what
Speaker 3: we would call today safely insisted. He goes down and
Speaker 3: at that point Putou gets arrested. Garfield gets taken to
Speaker 3: the White House for treatment, at which point. Another dude
Speaker 3: on the scene is Bob Lincoln. I call him Bob
Speaker 3: because that's what his daddy called him. Bob is the
Speaker 3: Secretary of War, and he calls in various doctors to
Speaker 3: treat the president, including Willard Bliss, who had treated his daddy.
Speaker 3: But he doesn't know Willard Blisz didn't touch him. So
Speaker 3: Bliss comes in. And at this point Blisz has and
Speaker 3: has had a hard time because in the eighteen seventies
Speaker 3: he was trying to promote his cancer cure, which everybody
Speaker 3: said was a bunch of crap. And now he's got
Speaker 3: a chance to make a lot of money and become
Speaker 3: really famous and say, you know what he does, Dan,
Speaker 3: he makes sure that he is the head physician. He
Speaker 3: takes control and nobody else is releasing medical bulletins but him.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, you know, it's like you know, and
Speaker 3: and because of the fact that he knew Garfield from
Speaker 3: years before, people think the guy's cool. Nobody realized and
Speaker 3: the President him, yes, well, you know, as you know,
Speaker 3: as you're saying that, Hank, I'm thinking, I'm sitting here
Speaker 3: and I'm thinking to myself, oh man, you know, this
Speaker 3: is my friend's great great granddaddy, you know, and you
Speaker 3: know the press, you know, But it looks any of
Speaker 3: us could be conned. Let's face that I've been I've
Speaker 3: been coned, you know, and we've all been conned. And
Speaker 3: then you ever met gone.
Speaker 8: Yeah once, ye know.
Speaker 3: So here's the thing. What I'm getting at is that
Speaker 3: Bliss takes control and this guy releases I mean, it's
Speaker 3: really interesting he releases these bulletins to the press, and
Speaker 3: you know, it's really in a sense, there's no difference
Speaker 3: then as opposed to now. They just take it at
Speaker 3: face value, you know what I mean. Nobody digs and
Speaker 3: you know, and he says, well, the guy is like this,
Speaker 3: and the guy's like that, and meanwhile, here's what's happening.
Speaker 3: He doesn't tell anybody this. He takes the Nelton probe,
Speaker 3: which I mentioned earlier, the piece of wire with a
Speaker 3: piece of porcelain on its tip, puts it into the
Speaker 3: wound and guess what he's exploring for the bullet without
Speaker 3: using anesthesia. So he's torturing the president. Now, a lot
Speaker 3: of other historians have talked about the lack of sepsis,
Speaker 3: that's not what killed President Garfield. And that's the whole
Speaker 3: point of the book, and his time goes on. In
Speaker 3: the next couple of months, Bill Bliss continues to do this,
Speaker 3: and then Alexander Graham Bell reads about this, God bless him,
Speaker 3: and he's up in Boston, and you know what he does, Dan,
Speaker 3: He says, you know, there's got to be a way
Speaker 3: to you know, look for this bullet without you know,
Speaker 3: just exploring for it, without you know, going through healthy tissue,
Speaker 3: you know, cutting it up. That's when he comes up
Speaker 3: with the idea to use magnets and so forth for
Speaker 3: an invention. He calls the induction balance to locate the
Speaker 3: bullet in the president's body, and he subsequently uses it
Speaker 3: on clinical trials with civil War veterans and in every
Speaker 3: single case he can locate the bullet every case. And
Speaker 3: then he gets summoned to the White House finally by Bliffs,
Speaker 3: to explore for the bullets in the president's body.
Speaker 8: Now, what happens with this, This is a public demonstration.
Speaker 8: And like you said, mentioned before that Bliss, regardless of
Speaker 8: not having any success with his cancer cure or any
Speaker 8: of his other ideas, why does this experiment that worked
Speaker 8: in these trials, why did it not work?
Speaker 7: Again?
Speaker 8: I guess I gave it away. Why did it not work?
Speaker 8: And what did Alexander Green Bell do as a result
Speaker 8: or how did he feel as a result. Tell us
Speaker 8: about this scene again. This is a very profound scene
Speaker 8: trying to save the president. Here's an inventor, here's his
Speaker 8: friend and doctor take us back into that.
Speaker 3: You know what, only with you will I give it away.
Speaker 3: Here's what happens. You know, And as I'm talking to you,
Speaker 3: I'm thinking to myself, a great grandson is on the phone. Okay,
Speaker 3: I know you know this story, but you know what
Speaker 3: I know. You know this story, Hank, but it just
Speaker 3: kisses me off. Here's what happens, Doctor Bliss. I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: doctor Bell, because alex he had a pH d. Bell
Speaker 3: sends a and I found this out. This is really cool.
Speaker 3: Bell sends a, uh non a text. I was gonna
Speaker 3: say text, but the telegram. The telegram he sends it.
Speaker 3: He sends a telegram to the way Dan and he
Speaker 3: tells Bliss get rid of any metal around the president
Speaker 3: because what I have here is a medal detector. Okay.
Speaker 3: So now Be shows up at the White House with
Speaker 3: a guy named Painter who is his assistant and he's
Speaker 3: ready to use this invention to find a bullet, just
Speaker 3: like he did with all these other individuals. And guess
Speaker 3: what happened. Bliss won't let him use the invention. He
Speaker 3: decides he's going to do it himself. And he claims
Speaker 3: the bullet is, let's say, on the left as opposed
Speaker 3: to the right, and he's so egotistical he doesn't want
Speaker 3: anybody to get credit for finding the bullet where it isn't. Well,
Speaker 3: the next thing, you know, doctor Bell is using the
Speaker 3: invention and only here, you know, there's a bell attached
Speaker 3: to it. And the idea is that when the bell rains,
Speaker 3: that's where the bullet is. Well, all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: there's all this this interference, and so he goes back
Speaker 3: to his you know where he you know, in Washington,
Speaker 3: where he's got his headquarters, and he says, I don't
Speaker 3: understand this, and he tries it again on other individuals
Speaker 3: and it works, and I don't know, maybe a couple
Speaker 3: of weeks later, and he's and he's corresponding with his
Speaker 3: wife the entire time. All his correspondence is in the
Speaker 3: Library of Congress in the United States. And now he
Speaker 3: goes back a second time, and he tries it a
Speaker 3: second time and he can't. You know, he's getting the
Speaker 3: same result all of the you know, these sounds that
Speaker 3: it doesn't make any sense, and he is what happens.
Speaker 3: Then shortly afterwards, Garfield is moved by Bliss to New
Speaker 3: Jersey to die, but Alex Bell is not giving up.
Speaker 3: He goes back to the layhouse and he finds President
Speaker 3: was laying on a mattress that had an inner spring,
Speaker 3: which screwed up the whole experiment. And he wrote about
Speaker 3: all this. And when I read all this stuff that
Speaker 3: he wrote, I realized what he was doing. He was
Speaker 3: laying the groundwork for somebody to come forward at a
Speaker 3: future date and prove that Bliss murdered the president. And
Speaker 3: I just happened to be the dude you know that
Speaker 3: picked up on this. And you know, any of us
Speaker 3: could have done it? Who are or you know, like
Speaker 3: you know you could have done it. I could have
Speaker 3: done it. Whoever, as long as you know what people
Speaker 3: familiar with murder investigations, and the real question then becomes
Speaker 3: what's the motive. Well, the answer to that one is
Speaker 3: Bliss couldn't afford to have somebody else be the dude
Speaker 3: who solved it, who rescued the president. He figured it's
Speaker 3: got to be him. It was his ego. And that's
Speaker 3: why doctor Willard Bliss is guilty of second degree murder,
Speaker 3: which in the United States is depraved indifference to human life.
Speaker 3: And my friend on the phone over there in Maine,
Speaker 3: his great great granddaddy got screwed by this guy. But
Speaker 3: we're sitting it straight right now, and that's the best
Speaker 3: I can do. You know, I can't prosecute him. I tried,
Speaker 3: by the way, I tried again. I tried. I called
Speaker 3: up a prosecutor in Washington. I said, can you prosecute
Speaker 3: a guy is dead? They said, Fred, we can't do that, right.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 10: What I what I find interesting about that whole scenario
Speaker 10: is is Bell was it was a really good scientist,
Speaker 10: and like any good scientists, he tried to he tried
Speaker 10: to eliminate, you know, he tried to to eliminate variables.
Speaker 9: He tried to you know.
Speaker 10: Uh, he questioned his own invention first, he you know,
Speaker 10: and and you find that down from history is people
Speaker 10: of ability, they questioned themselves, and he he he wanted
Speaker 10: to be make sure that the problem was not in
Speaker 10: his in his invention, which is why he did all
Speaker 10: these experiments on cadavers and living people.
Speaker 9: But so so so he was.
Speaker 10: Trying to run down potential errors. But it turns out
Speaker 10: that the error was the fact that Garfield was lying
Speaker 10: on a metal box spring. Now spent considerable time, you know,
Speaker 10: looking at his own invention. How you know what kind
Speaker 10: of ras Claire eliminade.
Speaker 8: Well, we haven't talked about to show. Also, though I
Speaker 8: mean not to disagree with Fred or you about this
Speaker 8: contention of this very malicious disagree sir. You know what
Speaker 8: I mean is I just want to I want to
Speaker 8: get a clarification that it could be. I mean, he
Speaker 8: had a huge ego, and he was a coward and
Speaker 8: he wasn't Charlatan, but he had that ego that he
Speaker 8: thought he had some good ideas even though he was
Speaker 8: a fool of a doctor. So what I wanted to
Speaker 8: illustrate is that one of these again very profound and
Speaker 8: fascinating story is is that Alexander Graham Bell is the
Speaker 8: real investigator. He's a real detective himself. He's reading missives
Speaker 8: about this ridiculous rectum feeding. So what does he get
Speaker 8: from that crazy idea about rectum feeding and the idea
Speaker 8: of of of Bliss's contention that he's gaining nutrients and
Speaker 8: nutrition via this rectum feeding.
Speaker 3: Thank may I respond to that, and then you can take.
Speaker 9: That one bred. Yeah, it's just it just grosses me out.
Speaker 3: This is well, it tisses me off more than you
Speaker 3: can imagine. If this is me chee, did I say that?
Speaker 3: You know? You know, Dan, every time we talk, I wonder,
Speaker 3: can I you know, can I use four letter words?
Speaker 3: You know? But here's the thing, Dan, what happens is
Speaker 3: back in oh, maybe the eighteen forties. I'm not looking.
Speaker 3: I'm not looking at the book. I don't know the
Speaker 3: exact year. But there's there's a doctor who is able
Speaker 3: to determine and it's pretty this is interesting stuff that
Speaker 3: uh food is processed and our stomach okay, and then
Speaker 3: it goes through the the you know, the the help
Speaker 3: me out here, guys, the the yeah, the intestines, thank you, gee,
Speaker 3: you must be a writer. And it goes through the
Speaker 3: intestines and this is established stuff in medicine. Okay, it's
Speaker 3: a book. For God's sakes. We'll get this, Dan, get this,
Speaker 3: Bliss the sides he's going you know, Garfield is like fading, duh,
Speaker 3: He's going to feed him through blood that he's going
Speaker 3: to pump up his rectum with quote unquote nutrients. Excuse me,
Speaker 3: what you know? You know this guy, this guy makes
Speaker 3: Dracula look like a good guy. And this twenty years
Speaker 3: before Bram Stoker wrote the novel. So what he does
Speaker 3: is he pumps he gets this blood that he then
Speaker 3: gets combined with broth and others crap, pumps it up
Speaker 3: the President's rector and he then claims he's feeding him,
Speaker 3: and it works because the president has, you know, a
Speaker 3: bowel movement whatever the point being, scientifically it had already
Speaker 3: been disproven. The kicker to this is that he's doing
Speaker 3: all this without anesthesia. And James Garfield was determined when
Speaker 3: he was shot that he was going to act like
Speaker 3: the president, meaning he wasn't going to chow pain. He
Speaker 3: was going to be a roic. And he did. But
Speaker 3: the guy was obviously in great discomfort subliicsius, you know,
Speaker 3: pumping this crap up his wreck them blah blah blah. Okay,
Speaker 3: he called it a nutrient enema, and I might add
Speaker 3: he wrote about it. He wrote a pamphlet about it
Speaker 3: which is quoted in the book and he references, Now
Speaker 3: this is eighteen eighty one. Oh Dan, this is great.
Speaker 3: The guy references the ancient Egyptians. Excuse me, you know, hey, amen, look,
Speaker 3: if I had a chance, I pumped up charl Nstin's
Speaker 3: wreck them. But that's another story. You know, you guys
Speaker 3: are both the lad of that one. Come on. But seriously,
Speaker 3: so this is what Bliss is doing. But this is
Speaker 3: after Alec Bell's invention quote unquote fails. And the worst
Speaker 3: part of this whole story is this Bliss talks to
Speaker 3: the press about Alec Bell's invention and says it's a
Speaker 3: piece of crap. It gets discredited even though it works.
Speaker 3: And so in nineteen oh one, when William McKinley is shot,
Speaker 3: then it's in the book. There is an X ray
Speaker 3: machine at the panem exposition where he's shot in Buffalo,
Speaker 3: but he's not near it. The only invention on the planet,
Speaker 3: on the planet that could have found that that was portable,
Speaker 3: that could have found the bullet in McKinley's body was
Speaker 3: the induction balance. But it was in the Smithsonian Institute
Speaker 3: sho you know, in the back room someplace. Because Bliss
Speaker 3: had deliberately discredited it in eighteen eighty one with the press.
Speaker 3: It's all document And that's really what gets me about this,
Speaker 3: you know, is this guy was such a piece of work,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? And he so really will
Speaker 3: it bliss cost the United States of America to presidents?
Speaker 3: How would our history be different? How would Hank Garfield's
Speaker 3: family's life be different? You know what Hank writs in
Speaker 3: the in the in the forward, murder ripples through generations,
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, Dan, I don't need to
Speaker 3: tell you this year. Get it, you know, and you
Speaker 3: know it's it's just, you know, there's nothing I'm saying
Speaker 3: that people who would be victims can't relate to. But
Speaker 3: now we're talking about very very very eyes steaks, Hank.
Speaker 8: I wanted to ask you this question from reading Fred's book.
Speaker 8: I'm sure there's some real interesting and surprising things. Obviously
Speaker 8: must be very fascinating for you to read part of
Speaker 8: your own obviously your family life in your own book
Speaker 8: in this book and be part of that book as well.
Speaker 8: But what Fred writes about is and I thought i'd
Speaker 8: get your response to this. As the bulletins from the
Speaker 8: Friend and the Dear surgeon about James Garfield's health, and
Speaker 8: in turn, James Garfield, again bucking up and being the
Speaker 8: strong man and taking the pain, also was corresponding with
Speaker 8: his wife. So his wife, like the public and like
Speaker 8: a lot of people, thought he was on the mend.
Speaker 8: Wasn't that what tell us about what you thought about
Speaker 8: finding that out? And tell us a little bit about
Speaker 8: that great?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, I guess you know, his wife rushed
Speaker 10: back from as much as you could rush. Then she
Speaker 10: took a train back from New Jersey. And the only, uh,
Speaker 10: the only piece of writing that James Garfield did in
Speaker 10: those seventy nine days was actually to his mother, who uh.
Speaker 9: Said, he said, you know, I'm.
Speaker 10: Fine, I'm getting a little bit better. But you know, again,
Speaker 10: I didn't I didn't know a whole lot of the
Speaker 10: specifics of of this history and and and what you know,
Speaker 10: what Bliss was telling the press and.
Speaker 9: And all of this. I thought it was.
Speaker 10: Kind of, uh remarkable that the whole country was kind
Speaker 10: of hanging on this. I mean, imagine, you know, imagine
Speaker 10: in today's media, the president shot and you don't know
Speaker 10: whether he's gonna live or die, and you know, there's
Speaker 10: daily bulletins and and there was there was a big
Speaker 10: public groundswell of you know, praying for the president and
Speaker 10: how is he doing today? And they were you know, imagine,
Speaker 10: imagine imagine today if if, if, if the president was
Speaker 10: lingering for you know, two and a half months on
Speaker 10: the edge of and uh uh. So, you know, when
Speaker 10: the train took him up to New Jersey, there were
Speaker 10: people lining the tracks to wish him well. And then
Speaker 10: a few days later, the train brought his dead body
Speaker 10: back from New Jersey and people were lining the tracks, flowing,
Speaker 10: throwing flowers on the tracks. And I think the President
Speaker 10: himself was kind of cognizant of the of the that that,
Speaker 10: you know, his presidency would be too short to really
Speaker 10: be remembered, which is what's happened. But but you know,
Speaker 10: during that time, the whole country kind of came to
Speaker 10: a standstill that summer, and.
Speaker 9: And it was like, you know, hanging on every bit
Speaker 9: of news.
Speaker 10: And the fact that that that ultimately the medical news
Speaker 10: was controlled by this doctor Bliss. You know really, I
Speaker 10: mean again I I I react to it in a
Speaker 10: kind of immediate way, which surprised me. You know, for
Speaker 10: most of my life, the fact that I'm a descended
Speaker 10: of a president.
Speaker 9: Has really been kind of a footnote.
Speaker 10: It hasn't really affected me. And then so so now
Speaker 10: as I learned more, you know, even even though it
Speaker 10: was one hundred and forty years ago, and I'm kind
Speaker 10: of like Jesus, you know.
Speaker 9: Couldn't something have been done?
Speaker 10: Couldn't somebody has done something?
Speaker 9: Oh my goodness?
Speaker 10: Is you know, it's it's it's it's it's surprisingly immediate.
Speaker 9: When I you know, when I read Fred's.
Speaker 8: Book, Wow, you know Fred, Yes, sir friend, I wanted
Speaker 8: to ask, because we haven't got to this one point.
Speaker 8: And again it's it's a it's a medical point, but
Speaker 8: it's very very crucial to this story with this rectum feeding,
Speaker 8: with this it's apparent, you know, dissuading Alexander Graham from
Speaker 8: from being able to use his his invention, not dissuading
Speaker 8: preventing him from being able to use his invention successfully
Speaker 8: to locate that bullet. So either a combination of ignorance
Speaker 8: and ego and incompetence lead to leads to this this death.
Speaker 8: But what exactly how does this person that has a
Speaker 8: bullet in him that shouldn't kill him, how does it
Speaker 8: end up killing him, and as soon as he dies,
Speaker 8: what is Bliss's behavior? What are some of the things
Speaker 8: Bliss does. I'm talking about demand for money? So just
Speaker 8: tell us about the what really killed him and how
Speaker 8: did he kill him?
Speaker 10: Well, he dives in the trobing, But the seconmary of
Speaker 10: your question is more interesting. Good go ahead, No.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no, Well.
Speaker 9: What the probing is?
Speaker 10: What killed him?
Speaker 9: I mean, yes.
Speaker 3: What we found out in two thousand and fourteen, which
Speaker 3: is why my book is different than the others that
Speaker 3: have been published prior to this, is that there is
Speaker 3: a clear line that shows that Bliss is and we
Speaker 3: haven't even discussed that Blisz kept exploring for the bullet
Speaker 3: without anesthesia and that what by doing that, Bliss destroyed
Speaker 3: the healthy tissue around with the bullet that safely insisted
Speaker 3: and it's screwed up in other medical ways, the President's system.
Speaker 9: And it wasn't because of death, blood poisoning death.
Speaker 3: I think they slitted that on the on the on
Speaker 3: the on the birth, on the on the death. Yeah.
Speaker 3: But the thing we you know what, as you point out, Hank,
Speaker 3: the thing that we need to understand is that we
Speaker 3: had a very unusual situation here where Bliss was in
Speaker 3: charge of the autosk okay. Not only was he in
Speaker 3: charge of the autos, he testifies against the console trial.
Speaker 3: He was covering the tracks. Now today it would be different, okay,
Speaker 3: because in those days there was no such thing as
Speaker 3: a doctor killing you know, at least two people didn't
Speaker 3: know about it, a doctor deliberately killing patient. And again
Speaker 3: the point here is we're talking second degree murder, which
Speaker 3: in the US, and then you can tell me how
Speaker 3: it works in Canada. But that's depraved the difference to
Speaker 3: human life. Okay. So Liz is basically covering his tracks
Speaker 3: and then what happens, oh my god, after that, and
Speaker 3: he testifies against Bouteau trial. And by the way, this
Speaker 3: took place very quickly, within months, and Boutte has been
Speaker 3: of course sentenced to death, and he gets hung. You
Speaker 3: know what, you know what Bliz does. He builds the
Speaker 3: government a fortune for his mental for the care of
Speaker 3: that became the president. And the Congress comes back and says, buddy,
Speaker 3: you're full craft. You don't deserve this fun. And he
Speaker 3: argues back and forth over it, and finally he makes
Speaker 3: sentiment to whatever you know, and and that is apparently
Speaker 3: the end of it, and shortly after that or you know,
Speaker 3: within I don't remember exactly the years, but Lucretia Garfield,
Speaker 3: who was known as Crete, great name. Don't you think
Speaker 3: I need this? A great name? And if you have
Speaker 3: another daughter named her Creete and she ends up going
Speaker 3: to South Pasadena, California, it's in the book at the
Speaker 3: very end, and she buys a house there and that's
Speaker 3: where she lives the other days. And a buddy of
Speaker 3: mine who I went to high school with, used to
Speaker 3: go buy that house all the time. You kind of
Speaker 3: bought it for two point five million dollars. Two point
Speaker 3: five Dan, that's American, not Canadian. So did I answer
Speaker 3: your question? You know, I just I'm going on and
Speaker 3: on about this, but I don't mean to. It's just
Speaker 3: that this guy really bucks me. And you know, when
Speaker 3: I'm talking to the family of American victim as Hank Is,
Speaker 3: I get very emotional about it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: It doesn't make a difference that it was one hundred
Speaker 3: years ago. It's full of next you murder, ripples, fro generations.
Speaker 8: How did this affect your family?
Speaker 7: Hank?
Speaker 3: Wow?
Speaker 9: Great question.
Speaker 10: Really, when I was growing up.
Speaker 9: Not at all.
Speaker 10: I mean, if you know, if you I mean, if
Speaker 10: you you know, if you'd asked me that question ten
Speaker 10: years ago, I would have said, not at all. You know,
Speaker 10: it was it was agent history. I knew, I knew
Speaker 10: his family history.
Speaker 9: But you know, wow, you know, only only.
Speaker 10: In recent years as an adult, as I've learned more
Speaker 10: about the President's shooting and death.
Speaker 9: And like I said before, my reaction surprised me.
Speaker 10: When I started to find out more about this, I
Speaker 10: was I was surprised that I was taking it personally,
Speaker 10: cause it did happen one hundred and forty odd years ago.
Speaker 10: You know, it was a trivia question to me when
Speaker 10: I when I was growing up. You know, my great
Speaker 10: great grandfather was one of four assassinated presidents, you know,
Speaker 10: named the presidents who didn't finish out their terms of
Speaker 10: office and so forth. So I would have to say that,
Speaker 10: I mean, there there's certainly you know, there there was
Speaker 10: the the you know, I was asked by another interview
Speaker 10: where you know, have I ever gone to the White House,
Speaker 10: as you know, a descendant of a president. The only
Speaker 10: time I've ever visited the White House is when I
Speaker 10: was in eighth grade, and I was just a you know,
Speaker 10: a regular tourist. So I was never really attempted to,
Speaker 10: you know, leverage my ancestry like the White House or anything.
Speaker 10: So really it didn't you know, it didn't affects me
Speaker 10: in any way other than you know, people people would
Speaker 10: find out my last name and ask me about it,
Speaker 10: and now I tell them truthfully, yeah, I'm a presidential descendant.
Speaker 10: But you know, so what I get up in the morning,
Speaker 10: I go to work like anybody else. You know, I
Speaker 10: live a fairly you know, normal life. I'm not rich
Speaker 10: by any stretch of the imagination. I don't do I
Speaker 10: don't I don't have secret service protection.
Speaker 9: You know, it's probably a good thing.
Speaker 10: So so up until recently, it really didn't affect me
Speaker 10: at all.
Speaker 3: Until I until I starved the pot. Actually, Dad, Yeah.
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's that's this guy that this writer Rosen calls me.
Speaker 3: And yeah, this guy rose from Brooklyn Goals you know
Speaker 3: what I mean.
Speaker 8: Yeah, Trouble's calling. Uh, Fred. I wanted to ask you
Speaker 8: we Hankin mentioned it that this was not only did
Speaker 8: it take you fourteen years to write it, but it
Speaker 8: took you fourteen years to get it published. Why was
Speaker 8: there any kind of result in distance to you getting this,
Speaker 8: for getting a deal with a guy with twenty four
Speaker 8: books under your belt, how why was this difficult at all?
Speaker 8: Or what did I miss?
Speaker 7: Hear that difficulty getting.
Speaker 3: You haven't missed anything, because you're a smart dude in
Speaker 3: addition to being a Blue Jays fan. What happened was this?
Speaker 3: A couple of things? First, what the hell? I don't
Speaker 3: you know? You know, you know, you know Dan everything.
Speaker 3: You know when I come on your show, I you know,
Speaker 3: as you know, I've already been sued for stuff I've
Speaker 3: said on your show. We're not going to talk about that,
Speaker 3: but I'll just you know, I won't mention your names.
Speaker 3: How's that? Okay, here's the deal. I had an agent
Speaker 3: and she sent the proposal out to some dude and
Speaker 3: and you know, went out to some dudes and you know,
Speaker 3: two thousand and sixty thousand and seven, and uh, some
Speaker 3: dude had major publishing. Now called me in fore, you know,
Speaker 3: make it as short as I can, calls me in
Speaker 3: for conference. You knoww that goes? This guy shows me, HENK,
Speaker 3: You're gonna love this. He shows me he's got Wikipedia
Speaker 3: information on the on the Gilded Age. In this schmuck.
Speaker 3: Jee I say that schmuck says to me, oh, this
Speaker 3: is all about the Gilded Ages, that you know it's not,
Speaker 3: and he considers the book and then rejects it. And
Speaker 3: at some point after that I had another agent who
Speaker 3: represented the book who was another schmuck. You know, remember something. Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm a New York Deaths fan. What the hell do
Speaker 3: I know? So then finally what happens is I woke
Speaker 3: up one night in November of two twenty and fourteen,
Speaker 3: I'll never forget it, and I said, if I don't
Speaker 3: write three books did I have in my list, call
Speaker 3: them the bucket list, and I die tomorrow, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: regret it. This was one of them. So my agent,
Speaker 3: Judy Copage, who had agent could die Hard, sent it
Speaker 3: to Sam Thorrens, who was the editor at the Atoma Books.
Speaker 3: She was from the Weapon since that, yeah, man, we're
Speaker 3: going to do it. Shortly after Sam bought the book,
Speaker 3: Tatomac was bought by University of BRASSPA Press. So for
Speaker 3: five minutes, I basically was, as we call it in
Speaker 3: the business, as you guys know, I was widowed. But
Speaker 3: the thing is, I think what really was going down
Speaker 3: here was this. Nobody really gave her crap because James Garfield,
Speaker 3: pony served a belt five months in office before you
Speaker 3: were shot. It wasn't personal, you know, it wasn't personal.
Speaker 3: It was just that, you know, Okay, it's what you know.
Speaker 3: But you know what, here's what got me though, Dan,
Speaker 3: this is what really gets him. I don't know. I
Speaker 3: was thinking about this and I said, I gotta ask
Speaker 3: Dan this. You know, when you go in to a
Speaker 3: school in America, they have, you know, like a poster
Speaker 3: of old presidents. I don't know if they have that Canada,
Speaker 3: Dan of the time ministers. Yeah thing, yeah, okay, good, excellent.
Speaker 3: So there's this poster of James Garfield. You know, he's
Speaker 3: what he would do is in at you and I
Speaker 3: learned and I'm looking at this and I'm standing to myself.
Speaker 3: This guy was murdered, you know. And as I said,
Speaker 3: as I said earlier, with you know, al Bell left
Speaker 3: beyond him betrayal for somebody to follow, and I just
Speaker 3: happened to be the dude that followed the trail. And
Speaker 3: I don't think it's any accident that Alec was a
Speaker 3: great Canadian and then became a great American. You know,
Speaker 3: that's why we're having this discussion today. And this was
Speaker 3: so in terms of selling out. The other thing was
Speaker 3: that when Candice Millard published her book Destiny of the Republic,
Speaker 3: which is still on the Best Yellow List a couple
Speaker 3: of you know, in two thousand and eleven, I want
Speaker 3: to say, she claimed that it was sepsist and the
Speaker 3: treatment of President by his doctor's plural that led to
Speaker 3: his death. Well, goldless, miss Millard. I don't know her,
Speaker 3: but she's not a homicide investigator as far as I know.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean. And on ninety half that
Speaker 3: when I when I investigated, I don't know if I've
Speaker 3: told you this. When I went to Grand Rapids, which
Speaker 3: is where Bliss lived, do you know that cost of
Speaker 3: the references too? Where were risks were missing for the files?
Speaker 3: What the hell is that about? Not said some of
Speaker 3: this stuff before? You know. But I'm not accusing anybody
Speaker 3: of anything. Please don't misunderstand me. I don't need to
Speaker 3: be sued again, Okay, but you know the references were missing.
Speaker 3: You know, I was looking for, you know, for background stuff.
Speaker 3: This none was you know, did Bliss come from there?
Speaker 3: He had gave me a Parker as well, and so
Speaker 3: forth and so on, and but this information was missing.
Speaker 3: Now there's no I'm not talking you know, there's no
Speaker 3: conspiracy here. We're not talking conspiracy, nothing like that, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean? Whatever it is, it is, but
Speaker 3: you know, I think it's incredibly important get it straight
Speaker 3: and to get it to it the right way. And
Speaker 3: most importantly, most importantly, the United States of America owes
Speaker 3: a death to the Garfield channel. They need to pay it,
Speaker 3: you know. And whether it is money or recognition or
Speaker 3: whatever it might be, that in the matter is James
Speaker 3: Garfield saved our country, our country during the Civil War,
Speaker 3: and he comported himself as the president when he was shocked,
Speaker 3: and he's never gotten the acknowledgement that he should get
Speaker 3: from the official sources of history, articial, forever governed beta
Speaker 3: term in our country. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: And I'm Dallas Bell. When he trying to help the president,
Speaker 3: it was a comedian sist. What needs to be acknowledged.
Speaker 3: It wasn't at that point a Scotsman. Yes, he came
Speaker 3: from Scotland, God blessed Scotland. Okay, nobody completely can respond
Speaker 3: like Sean Connery, do you know what I mean. But
Speaker 3: here's the thing. This guy he was he was an
Speaker 3: action adventure of hero and when you when you know,
Speaker 3: in the book, I talked about how he handled you know,
Speaker 3: handled himself throwing the boss of fire and heat, that
Speaker 3: he go for things. He was a guy who was
Speaker 3: a deemocratic and he came forward to help the president
Speaker 3: of the United States. And you know what, why isn't
Speaker 3: that acknowledged? And I think it should be acknowledged, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean? And I think it's and you
Speaker 3: know what, you know, I sent you an email today
Speaker 3: and I wonder about this dance. Do they have a
Speaker 3: monument up Ballop del In on Aerio where his family settled.
Speaker 3: He had he had a laboratory there. You know, this
Speaker 3: is a guy who he was a cool dude. And
Speaker 3: by the way, when the Kinley was shot and his
Speaker 3: invention could have detected the bullet and president, but what
Speaker 3: he was doing on the time he was having he
Speaker 3: was he was having you know, fight the experiments, you know,
Speaker 3: And so it just seems to me that you know,
Speaker 3: if I get over, I realize, just stop me, because
Speaker 3: I keep going on, which is good. People have to
Speaker 3: speak together. We will have to speak together.
Speaker 8: Absolutely, Fred, our time has come to an end. I
Speaker 8: want to just thank you and Hank Garfield. Hank, everybody
Speaker 8: knows about Fred's career and and how many like I say,
Speaker 8: this is his twenty fifth book, and and we'll talk
Speaker 8: about Fred's Uh just type in Fred Rosen his author
Speaker 8: page and he's all over the place. But Hank, just
Speaker 8: tell us a little bit about the a little bit
Speaker 8: about your career as a novelist before I let you, gentlemen,
Speaker 8: go for the evening.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 10: I I have five published novels, Fred Fred's favorite one
Speaker 10: is called Tartable's Throw, which was Simon and Schuster in
Speaker 10: two thousand and one. It's my baseball, werewolf, time travel,
Speaker 10: coming of age love story novel. It's it's five genres
Speaker 10: in one. And I'm working. I'm working on a new
Speaker 10: novel right now. It's a sprawling family saga. And I
Speaker 10: also write a blog called slower Traffic and you can
Speaker 10: find it at slower traffic dot net. And it's about
Speaker 10: living in a rural state like Maine, a rural place
Speaker 10: like Maine without owning a car. Nine years ago I
Speaker 10: decided that that was not going to own a car
Speaker 10: for a year and see.
Speaker 9: How it went. And it's been nine years now, nine
Speaker 9: years in counting.
Speaker 10: You know that's my blog slower Traffic dot net and
Speaker 10: uh and I uh I teach writing at the University
Speaker 10: of Maine.
Speaker 8: Yes, well, that's fantastic. I want to thank you gentlemen,
Speaker 8: Hank Garfield, Fred Rosen. It's always been a pleasure with you, Fred,
Speaker 8: but especially with this very very important and this is
Speaker 8: you've done yourself. This is a fantastic book. Thank you
Speaker 8: gentlemen for this interview. You guys have a great evening.
Speaker 8: That's the luck with the book. But I don't think
Speaker 8: you're gonna need it. You're gonna turn some heads and
Speaker 8: people find this book as fascinating as I did.
Speaker 3: I just want to say one thing before we go.
Speaker 3: Wish is Dan. I shall not thank you more sincerely
Speaker 3: to your support for years. Sure talks in bad times
Speaker 3: and you are great, great Conadian. I continue you sure
Speaker 3: to be great part. I'll bet that I'll thank you, okay,
Speaker 3: And I you know what you are, You're you're you know,
Speaker 3: you know I know what you know. I'm going on
Speaker 3: and on, but you don't what you're cool man, So
Speaker 3: thank you very much for having us on. I really
Speaker 3: appreciate it.
Speaker 8: Well, thank you, Fred. It's uh, I'm always uh grateful
Speaker 8: for the things you say. But thank you very much, Fred,
Speaker 8: and I know I'll be talking to you again real soon.
Speaker 8: Thank you for this, gentlemen, of a great evening.
Speaker 3: Good night, thank.
Speaker 9: You, good night.
Speaker 3: Nice