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That's Chumbuck 51 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:29.039 Casino dot com. 52 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:32.240 You'll Perkins has very very losty terms conditions eighteen plus. 53 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:45.120 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 54 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:48.240 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 55 00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:54.400 written about them, Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK. 56 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:59.120 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 57 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:02.280 and infamous case, but he's in true crime history. True 58 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:06.879 Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 59 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:21.560 Good evening. On a clear, brisk night in September of 60 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:25.199 two thousand, thirty three year old Della Brown was found 61 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:29.520 sexually assaulted and beaten to death inside a filthy, abandoned 62 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:34.680 shed in a seedy part of Anchorage Alaska. She was 63 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:38.280 one of six women, mostly Native Alaskan, slain that year, 64 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:42.759 stoking fears a serial killer was on the loose. A 65 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:46.280 tanned and thuggish twenty year old would eventually implicate himself 66 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:49.759 in three of the women's deaths and confess in detail 67 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:53.639 to Della's murder. Yet after a three month trial, Joshua 68 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:56.840 Wade would walk free. In two thousand and seven, when 69 00:03:56.840 --> 00:04:00.360 Wade kidnapped a well loved nurse psychologist from her home 70 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:04.400 and then executor in the remote wilderness of Wassilla, two 71 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:09.319 astute female detectives joined forces to finally bring him to justice. 72 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:12.840 Ice in Bone is the chilling true account of how 73 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:17.519 a demented murderer initially evaded police and avoided conviction, only 74 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:21.360 to slip back into the shadows and kill again. Journalist 75 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:24.680 and writer Monty Francis tells the harrowing story of what 76 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:29.079 eventually led to Wade's capture and reveals why the true 77 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:32.399 scope of this murderous rampage is only now more than 78 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:36.240 a decade later coming into view. The book that we're 79 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:40.120 featuring this evening is Ice and Bone, Tracking an Alaskan 80 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:44.519 serial killer with my special guest, journalist and author Monty Francis. 81 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:46.959 Welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to 82 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:49.399 dis interview Monty Francis. 83 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:51.560 Thanks so much, damn it the pleasure. 84 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:58.360 Thank you very much. What first off, how did you 85 00:04:58.439 --> 00:05:01.360 come to want to write this story? Give us the 86 00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:05.279 circumstances in which you came to write Ice and Bone. 87 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:10.040 Well, I was actually looking for a subject for my 88 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:12.560 second book, because I'd already written one back in two 89 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:16.199 thousand and seven. I worked as a TV news reporter 90 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:19.839 here in the San Francisco area and was just at 91 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:23.079 the point where I felt like I wanted to write 92 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:28.160 another book, and I was just sort of researching unsolved 93 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:31.800 crimes because that that intrigued me. And I came across 94 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:35.399 this newspaper article out of the Anchorage Daily News about 95 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:40.120 these six women who had been murdered within roughly the 96 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:44.560 same time period, about eighteen months or so, and I 97 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:47.920 decided this sort of this article was dated, you know, 98 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:50.000 the year two thousands, So I decided to sort of 99 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:52.519 follow through with each of the cases and see which 100 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:55.360 were still which had been solved, in which had been unsolved, 101 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:58.480 And I was surprised to learn that three of those 102 00:05:58.519 --> 00:06:02.000 cases were still open, were unsolved. And then there was 103 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:03.959 a strange thing that had happened in one of those 104 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:07.279 cases you mentioned in the intro, Della Brown. She was 105 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:10.319 one of the six women, and in that case, the 106 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:14.720 killer had been acquitted of her murder and had gone 107 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:17.240 out and murdered someone else. And then later during that 108 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:21.759 second trial, that second murder, which had nothing to do 109 00:06:21.800 --> 00:06:25.000 with the original six, admitted that he had indeed killed 110 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:30.160 Della Brown. So I thought there was something there, and 111 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:37.600 I called Desa Jacobsen, and she is a Native activist 112 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:39.439 who lives in Anchorage, and she was mentioned in this 113 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:43.079 newspaper article. She had gone on a hunger strike to 114 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:46.160 protest the verdict in the Della Brown case because she 115 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:49.639 felt that that was a terrible injustice. And she was 116 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:53.360 also trying to draw attention to the fact that Native 117 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:56.439 Alaskan women were being victimized in Anchorage and no one 118 00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:01.600 seemed to really care. That was her view. And so 119 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:03.759 I called her, you know, and keep in mind that 120 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:06.519 says like fourteen years after the fact. I called her 121 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:08.240 out sort of out of the blue, and she answered 122 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:10.560 the phone, and I think she was quite shocked that 123 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:15.800 she had about these cases, these old cold cases. I 124 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:18.920 think because she felt that everyone had forgotten about them, 125 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:22.639 and we just started talking, and she's sort of the 126 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:25.439 one who convinced me it was a story worth telling. 127 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:30.759 I decided to take a leave from my television job 128 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:35.480 and I booked a one way ticket to Alaska. People 129 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:37.240 who were laughing at me because I thought, you know, 130 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:39.199 that's what an adventuest thing to do, and I just 131 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:41.879 went to go find out if there was a story there. 132 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:49.560 Let's talk about Della Brown. And also, maybe just before 133 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:52.680 Della Brown, maybe you can set the stage for not 134 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:55.759 everybody knows what Alaska's like, and what kind of population 135 00:07:55.839 --> 00:08:00.079 we're talking about, and the sort of racial mix and 136 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:03.959 and sort of the really the acceptance of the Alaskan 137 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:08.519 Aboriginal the natives themselves in their own communities in Alaska. 138 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:12.480 So before we introduced Della Brown in her Sad life, 139 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:17.519 let's first talk about Anchorage in Alaska. 140 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:23.439 Well, okay, so Anchorage has the most the highest population 141 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:26.759 of any city in Alaska. I forget the percentage, but 142 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:29.839 a great percentage of the people who live in Alaska 143 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:32.759 live in Anchorage. There's about three hundred thousand people who 144 00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:35.639 live there. Now, I think it was more like two 145 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:38.840 hundred and forty thousand at the time of the murders. 146 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:42.320 A lot of people there work sort of in the 147 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:45.759 oil industry, and as you said, there is a large 148 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:50.840 Native population. I was shocked because, you know, Desa Jacobsen, 149 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:53.919 we sort of became friends, and she showed me around Anchorage. 150 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:57.480 I was shocked to see how many Native Alaskan people 151 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:00.840 were homeless in Anchorage and living on the streets. There's 152 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:05.120 a section of town where many of them camp out 153 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:07.799 on the street out in the cold. You know. I 154 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:09.559 think it was like eighteen degrees when I was there, 155 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:12.600 and people were, you know, making fires and sleeping outside, 156 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:15.279 and I was actually in the rental car with decent 157 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:17.919 She got quite upset and she kept saying, these are 158 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:20.240 the landowners, these are the landowners. And I didn't really 159 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:23.279 realize what she was saying at first, but later realized 160 00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:25.120 what she was saying was these were the folks who 161 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:27.519 were here to begin with, and now they're relegated to 162 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:29.639 living on the streets. And she found that to be 163 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:34.360 very upsetting. And there is a history of racism against 164 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:40.320 Native Alaskans in Alaska. If you look back sort of 165 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:42.759 in the history there, you can find pictures of you 166 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:45.440 whites only signs and we don't serve natives here, that 167 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:53.200 kind of thing in Juno and there. There continues to be. 168 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:58.159 A problem with alcoholism in the Native Alaskan population, as 169 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:02.559 we've seen also the Native America community here, and also 170 00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:07.919 a problem with fetal alcohol syndrome, which was very rampant 171 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:10.440 among the Native population in Alaska. 172 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:12.320 I think they've done a lot to sort of correct 173 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:16.080 the problem now, but for people who don't know, it's 174 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:19.720 just a it's a syndrome that results when a woman 175 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:22.759 drinks while she's pregnant and can cause a number of 176 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:30.240 problems for the child, you know, developmentally and otherwise. So 177 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:33.279 that sort of and the other thing too, is that 178 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:35.360 a lot of these you know, when you talk about 179 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:39.799 the epidemic of rape among Native Alaskan women, it's really striking. 180 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:43.759 And I don't think that the statistics even reflect the reality. 181 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:48.679 I mean, because a lot of these villages where Alaska 182 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:51.720 and live, there is no law enforcement, there's no mechanism 183 00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:55.200 to report these kinds of crimes, there's no road access, 184 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:57.519 there's you know, so the ones that we know about 185 00:10:57.559 --> 00:11:01.360 are the ones that show up the statistics, and they're 186 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:04.879 striking right there. They have like the highest per capita 187 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:08.440 rape in the country in Alaska, and that doesn't even 188 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:11.960 factor in the Native population, and when you do it did, 189 00:11:12.039 --> 00:11:15.960 it's even more dramatic. But there's certainly a lot of 190 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:22.080 challenges that exist in Alaska when it comes to Native 191 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:26.559 people and what and what they're dealing with. So that 192 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:30.720 sort of sets the stage for this story that I 193 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:34.639 tell in Ice and Bone and these these these unsolved murders. 194 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:42.759 Now, let's talk about Daisy Pigott and that's Della Brown's 195 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:45.080 real mother, as we will find out in this story, 196 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:49.240 and tell tell our audience about the circumstances that Della 197 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:49.799 was born. 198 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:53.080 So Daisy told me that Della was the result of 199 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:56.919 a rape, and that Daisy was eighteen years old when 200 00:11:56.919 --> 00:12:00.000 it happened. She lived with her mother and her stepfather, 201 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:04.320 and she told me she wasn't getting along with her parents, 202 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.960 that she wanted to sort of, you know, leave and 203 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:10.080 start a new life. And so what she did was 204 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:14.480 she left her daughter, her newborn daughter, Della, with her 205 00:12:14.519 --> 00:12:18.679 mother and then moved to Albuquerque, New Mexico. So kind 206 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:22.679 of didn't have a part in Della's life as she 207 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:25.440 was growing up and then finally reconnected with Della when 208 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:30.039 Della was an adult, and by that time, Della had 209 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:34.159 a number of problems. She become addicted to alcohol, and 210 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:38.720 she claimed Della claimed that she had been the abuse 211 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:42.840 of the victim of sexual abuse in the family and 212 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:46.360 had endured it for a number of years and that's 213 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:51.320 what had driven her to develop these addictions. 214 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:57.559 Now discontinuing this cycle, she of course, of course, but 215 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:00.679 not surprising, she hooks up with a guy named Rudy 216 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:05.600 who's brutal, and does she have children and what happens 217 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:06.720 in that case? 218 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:09.879 Yeah, she didn't have children with Rudy, but she did 219 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.360 have She did have a son, Robert, with someone else. 220 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:18.000 That's the only that's the only child I know of 221 00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:24.159 Ella had. She has siblings that she came to know 222 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:32.200 later after reconnecting with Daisy. Half siblings. Yeah, but Robert 223 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:32.840 is her son. 224 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:39.200 So let's talk about In the beginning of your book, 225 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:41.919 you talk about Della Brown, and you take us right 226 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:45.600 to the point where, of course the mother and daughter 227 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:49.240 have reconnected, but you say she's in such a bad state, 228 00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:52.559 and you, I guess hammer that home with with the 229 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:55.519 real fact that she's calling her mother. And when she 230 00:13:55.559 --> 00:13:59.919 calls her mother in this connection and this life separated, 231 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:02.759 what's the kind of conversation that can happen often when 232 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:04.159 Della is intoxicated. 233 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:07.240 Yeah, she did this more than once, but I think 234 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:10.200 she basically the way the conversation would go is she 235 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:12.519 would call her when she would get in these states, 236 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:16.639 whether she was you know, drunk, or she was and 237 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:21.200 cocaine or whatever, she would call her mother and say, look, 238 00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:23.559 I wouldn't be this way if you hadn't abandoned me, 239 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:27.639 which of course triggered this enormous guilt and daisy guilt 240 00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:34.399 that I think he tortures her. She feels like, had 241 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:38.600 she not left Della, maybe things would have been different. 242 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:45.559 So what's happening in Della's life? And how old is Della? 243 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:48.679 Just tell us a little bit about how you know 244 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:52.399 her stature, what's her size, what is she like? Really 245 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:55.960 beyond the addiction itself, tell us a little bit about 246 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:59.000 Della Brown? And how old is she when this story 247 00:14:59.039 --> 00:14:59.840 really shakes place. 248 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:05.120 Okay, she was thirty three years old when she was killed. 249 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:09.159 She as she was described to me, and I talked 250 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:13.600 to people of several family members who knew her and 251 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:18.840 one of whom was her half sister Keinak, who met 252 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:22.919 her when she was maybe pre teen, pre adolescent, and 253 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:25.360 Della kind of took her under her wing and they 254 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:28.240 would go to the movies together, and they would explore 255 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:32.120 the outdoors together. And Kenoch described her as actually not 256 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:34.919 just Kenok, her her mother and other siblings as well, 257 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:39.360 said that she had this very endearing smile. She was 258 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:43.480 very kind, you know, when she was sober, she was 259 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:48.480 very giving and nurturing. She would cook meals and often 260 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.039 share them with other kids in the trailer park who 261 00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:54.600 would come to her door who were hungry. She loved 262 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:58.120 the outdoors. She had a part time job calling numbers 263 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:01.759 at a bingo hall, which she quite an joyed. She 264 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:05.519 just was a tortured person though, because of these addictions 265 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:07.360 and because of what had happened during her life. And 266 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:13.919 I think she just had a really sad, a sad life. 267 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:20.399 Now, how does she come to bump into a person 268 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:23.039 named Joshua Wade? What happens? Will you tell? 269 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:23.200 You? 270 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.039 Take us to the liquor store and she stole in 271 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:29.559 her boyfriend Rudy's credit card and got herself a bottle 272 00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:32.679 of ian J Brandy so tell us how what are 273 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:36.279 the circumstances in which these two souls collide. 274 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:41.279 Well, so on the night, on the night of her murder, 275 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:44.320 I mean, they haven't pen Quinte exactly, you know, when 276 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:46.519 it was that she died. There's some question as to 277 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:49.480 when exactly she died, but the circumstances that led up 278 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:52.120 to that she was drunk and had also consumed some 279 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:56.960 cocaine and had passed out in the street. Joshua Wade, 280 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:01.960 who's this young drug dealer, is around in his father's 281 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:06.279 Cadillac with some of his friends and they come across 282 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:08.920 Stella Brown, who's passed out in the middle of the street. 283 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:13.960 Joshua Wade makes allegedly makes some joke about running her over. 284 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:18.079 Someone in the back seat says no, no, don't do that, 285 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:22.240 and gets out of the car one of the passengers 286 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:25.319 and sort of drags her out of the of the 287 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:27.119 road and onto the side of the road near a 288 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:31.160 near a shed that was located near a TV station. 289 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:36.240 And this is in sort of a CD part of 290 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:40.880 Anchorage at the time. And so then later that night, 291 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:46.200 Joshua Wade and his friends returned to this garage where 292 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:48.359 they're doing work on a couple of cars. They're doing 293 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:50.359 like an engine swap on these cars, and they're sort 294 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:52.640 of hanging out and getting drunk and this kind of thing, 295 00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:56.559 and Joshua Wade disappears from the garage and says he's 296 00:17:56.559 --> 00:17:58.200 going to go check to see if the lady has 297 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:04.440 any money on or something like that, and comes back 298 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:07.319 later in the night, according to the people in the garage, 299 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:11.440 covered in blood, which he then washes off, and he's 300 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:16.599 acting agitated and pacing back and forth and begins to 301 00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:21.160 tell pull people aside and tell people various things of 302 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:24.240 what he's alleged to have done to Della Brown, and 303 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:26.079 all of this sort of came out at the trial. 304 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:30.440 Do you want me to get into that as well, 305 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:32.720 like what he is, what he had done. 306 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:35.960 Well, let's not jump ahead so much because it's it's 307 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:38.680 very important what happens in this as well, because he 308 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:42.039 has this little again to demonstrate. I think what you're 309 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:45.319 demonstrating with illustrating with his book is that again we 310 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:49.279 talk about the racism, we talk about you know, Della's 311 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:53.160 laying on the street, and not to gloss over this, 312 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:55.759 these people say, oh, you know, there's there's somebody in 313 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:59.160 the street ooh uh, we better move her along. I mean, 314 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:02.039 it wasn't a sympathetic thing. Oh my god, someone's just 315 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:04.519 hurt and we should call nine one one. It's not 316 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:08.000 any of that. So there's this disregard for these people 317 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:10.799 on the road. Just push her aside, don't see if 318 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:14.079 she's Oh, she's alive, but just push her aside. And 319 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:16.839 so these guys are I guess, I don't know if 320 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:19.359 they're punks. But there's some little gang called GTS, and 321 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:24.000 there's a guy named Romeo and his brother Gabe, and 322 00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:26.400 so there's some people at this gradge and he starts 323 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:29.720 talking to these people. So some people take him serious, 324 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:32.000 some people not so serious. Some people know him, some 325 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:34.759 people don't know him so well. But he also wants 326 00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:37.000 to tell people about it. But he also wants to 327 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:42.160 show people, doesn't he He does, And he eventually takes them, 328 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:44.640 you know, takes various people one by one to this 329 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.960 shed to show them, to show them what he's done 330 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:49.759 to her, which is essentially. 331 00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:53.359 Beat her in the head with what we believe is 332 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:57.799 a rock and kill her. The reason I said it 333 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:01.599 wasn't clear when exactly she died. He apparently he told 334 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:03.000 some of the people in the garage that he was 335 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:06.359 going back trying various things, and that she that she 336 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:09.319 wouldn't die. I mean, he he says it in a 337 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:14.359 much more profane way, but he, you know, allegedly tried 338 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:18.400 to cut her with a pocket knife, and there were 339 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:23.519 she did have cuts on her leg that where that 340 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:28.920 were consistent with that. And then eventually, but the coroner 341 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:31.559 determined what killed her where the fatal blows to the 342 00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:35.920 head with the rock. And then and then you had 343 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:39.359 mentioned this thing about sort of the racial overtones he 344 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:43.440 had alleged. He Wade denied that he was motivated by 345 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:46.640 a hatred of Native people, but had said to many 346 00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:51.440 people that he thought Natives were scum. His father when 347 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:55.240 I talked to his father in Seattle, his father confirmed 348 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:59.160 that for me as well, that that Joshua Wade had 349 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:04.119 a very poor opinion of Native people in general. That 350 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:08.480 he admired African Americans and Latinos, but that to him, 351 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:11.759 Native Alaskans were like at the bottom of the of 352 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:17.480 the wrong there. What did you what was the question again. 353 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:20.880 I'm sorry, Well, the thing is you were talking about 354 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:24.720 he wanted to show people, so there was Again, this 355 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:28.319 is an incredible case for some people that realize well, 356 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:33.480 and we will talk about what happens at trial. But again, 357 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:36.680 this woman, he's already mentioned to people he's come in 358 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:40.319 with his clothes bloody. He has now taken a couple 359 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:42.720 of people, not really his close friends. A couple of 360 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:44.839 his close friends said no, I or one friend said 361 00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:47.200 I'm not going there. I'm not going with you. So 362 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:49.799 he shows some people, so he wants to show so 363 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:53.519 there is that kind of evidence eventually that the police 364 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:57.279 find out. So tell us what happens in terms of 365 00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:02.200 somebody seeing his handiwork in that shed. 366 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:06.880 Well, he wanted he wanted one of the one of 367 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:09.000 the people that he took to the shed to help 368 00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:12.200 him move move her body because the body was sort 369 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:15.319 of her body was blocking the door, and he wanted 370 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:19.279 help moving the body, you know, away, and that person refused, 371 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:23.319 and so he eventually did it himself. That was always 372 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:25.759 surprising to me too through the trial. And don't want 373 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:28.839 to jump ahead too much, but you know, given that 374 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:30.799 he had come in and out of that shed so 375 00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:33.480 many times, and the fact that they were not able 376 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:37.839 to produce any forensic evidence to connect Wade to the shed, 377 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:41.880 I found to be really surprising, and I think actually 378 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:44.960 in reality, I think he found that to be wide himself, 379 00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:49.640 because he said he said this in an interview after 380 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:51.640 after the case was over. 381 00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:58.279 Well, it might not have been a case of the 382 00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:05.400 police as it sounds like in conclusion too, that possibly 383 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:08.880 the police didn't do everything they could have at the 384 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:12.559 time that they could have done and had their opportunity 385 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:14.759 to let's put it that way, So maybe they didn't 386 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:17.799 capitalize on everything they could have capitalized on. I think 387 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:18.960 could that be fair to say? 388 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:22.960 I think that could be fair. I mean, the explanation 389 00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:28.680 that I heard from the prosecutors was that it was 390 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:32.559 a very difficult crime scene because the shed was so filthy. 391 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.240 I mean, there was so much dirt everywhere. It was 392 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:38.480 hard to get fingerprints, it was hard to retrieve the 393 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:41.200 kind of forensic evidence that you depend on these cases. 394 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:45.559 So I think that that was definitely a factor. So 395 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:49.200 it may not have been necessarily like sloppy police work 396 00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:52.400 or anything like that, but just the fact that the 397 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:55.279 conditions in the shed were so difficult. But you know, 398 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:57.079 even the fact that he was walking in and out 399 00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:02.039 of there. They were testing for shoeprints and that kind 400 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:04.480 of thing. That matched his shoes, and there really was 401 00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:09.680