WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.840 --> 00:00:02.960 Hudson River Radio dot Com. 2 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:04.559 It beats listening to nothing. 3 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:10.000 Oh my godness, it's Frank Being Frank, where the only 4 00:00:10.039 --> 00:00:16.399 way to be is Frank. Hello everyone, and welcome to 5 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:19.800 Being Frank. We're the only way to be is Frank. 6 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:22.359 I'm your host, Frank Leborono, and I'd like to thank 7 00:00:22.359 --> 00:00:24.239 you for joining us on what we like to call 8 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:29.000 the Intelligent Conversation Podcast, where no conversations out of bounds 9 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:32.079 at all points of view are welcome. As you know, 10 00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:35.320 we go live to tape, we record live to tape, 11 00:00:35.399 --> 00:00:38.600 and it's our first show of twenty twenty five. It's 12 00:00:38.600 --> 00:00:41.960 the new year. I hope everybody had a wonderful, happy 13 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:45.520 and safe new year. It is the third of January, 14 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:48.399 and we got a fabulous program for you coming up 15 00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:52.479 by virtually all measures. The new film A Complete Unknown 16 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:56.520 has been both a critical and commercial smash hit. The 17 00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:00.159 so called biopic portrays the nineteen sixty one arrival of 18 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:03.079 a young Bob Dylan on the emerging folk scene in 19 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:06.439 the cradle of where it All happened, Greenwich Village. The 20 00:01:06.439 --> 00:01:11.079 film culminates with Dylan's legendary and incendiary performance at the 21 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:15.439 nineteen sixty five Newport Folk Festival is directed by James 22 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:20.480 Mangold and stars among an outstanding cast Timothy Chalomet as 23 00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:23.719 Dylan and Edward Norton as one of his mentors, Peter Seeger. 24 00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:29.120 Both actors' performances are being considered oscar worthy. If there 25 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:32.560 has been any legitimate criticism at all, it comes from 26 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:35.400 the fact that the film takes creative liberties with certain 27 00:01:35.480 --> 00:01:39.640 characters and events, as well as omitting other important ones. 28 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:42.560 But people must keep in mind a complete and known 29 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:46.120 is a dramatic film, not a documentary. Accounting for time 30 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:49.799 and dramatic effect, this is bound to happen. However, the 31 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:52.439 film can still force a debate as to what really 32 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:56.200 happened and perhaps why, and who better than to pose 33 00:01:56.280 --> 00:01:58.640 those questions to than a woman who was there from 34 00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:01.239 the very beginning and wrote the book on the time 35 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:05.359 and place where it all happened. Literally in nineteen sixty one, 36 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:08.080 she became Dylan's first manager, and despite her not being 37 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:10.680 featured in the film, along with her husband, the folk 38 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:14.759 singer Dave van Ron, played a significant role in Dylan's career. 39 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:18.680 Her book is My Greenwich Village, Dave, Bob and Me, 40 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:21.919 Please welcome back to being Frank the author of that book, 41 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:24.319 Terry Thal Terry, thank you for taking the time. 42 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:28.120 Thank you, it's all such fun to be here. 43 00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:31.039 Thank you. I really appreciate it. I know you're very 44 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:34.919 busy with the release of this very very successful movie, 45 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:37.360 and I know you've seen it now at this point 46 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:43.039 and twice. So let's start broadly and then we'll get 47 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:46.599 a little bit more specific. What were your thoughts on 48 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:49.520 the movie? First, and I guess easiest. Did you like 49 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:51.120 it and what did you like about it? 50 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:54.280 Well, to my surprise, I liked the movie. And it 51 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:57.919 is to my surprise because I thought I would not 52 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:03.919 like it at all, to think literally, not metaphorically. And 53 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:08.599 I knew it wasn't an attempt to be an accurate biography. 54 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:13.280 But it's a biopic which dramatizes somebody's life rather than 55 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:17.960 tells us a story of that life. But I don't 56 00:03:18.039 --> 00:03:21.599 usually react lots of that kind of thing. One of 57 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:24.199 the people I saw with, a woman named Lauren Miller, 58 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:27.039 who's a writer and editor who lives in Los Angeles, 59 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:31.280 pointed out that the movie uses the structure of the arc, 60 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:35.719 which has a start that poses an issue takes it 61 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:40.639 on an adventure and ends with a resolution. So I 62 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:44.759 will get to that and how the various elements of 63 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:49.120 the arc or the arcs affected me in a few minutes. 64 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:52.639 But as I said, to my surprise, I liked it. 65 00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:56.680 It sets pop up as a rather sympathetic person immediately 66 00:03:56.800 --> 00:04:00.039 in its first ten minutes, because it takes him to 67 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:04.159 visit his hero, Woody Guthrie, who is a labor hero 68 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:08.599 folk singer songwriter who is dying over a long period 69 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:15.719 of time of Huntington Huntington's disease, which is a dreadful, dreadful. 70 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:17.519 Wasting, wasting disease. Yeah. 71 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:19.839 Yeah, I had a friend who died of it. It's 72 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:24.759 like awful. At the hospital, Bob also meets Pete Seeger, 73 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:27.959 who is the hero of the folk musical world, and 74 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:31.000 Peter is struck by the young man's intensity and his 75 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:34.199 interests in folk music, and he's sort of a top spot. 76 00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:37.240 And this is one of the major arcs of the movie. 77 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:41.600 Will Bob remain within the folk music community and it's 78 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:45.800 limited musical and commercial outreach, But they grabb you in 79 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:49.160 the first ten minutes. I mean, he walks in and 80 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:53.480 he meets Woody, and he meets Pete and Peter's impressed 81 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:58.000 with him, and of course Bob is awestruck by meeting 82 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:01.800 Woody who can barely speak. But what he listens to 83 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:06.560 Bob he has consist same one song Bob does modestly, 84 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:11.000 maybe the last modest thing he did, but he does 85 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:17.319 it honestly, and you're hooked. There you go. 86 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:22.519 Then, obviously he continues over the course of the next 87 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:25.240 four years as he develops as an artist, a person. 88 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:27.480 And he was young. He was only nineteen, I believe 89 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:30.399 when he came so really kid, when you think about 90 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:33.560 it in the final analysis, really nineteen was a bit older, 91 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:35.839 a little bit older, but job as. 92 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:39.680 A year younger than me. And in sixty I was 93 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:43.319 born in thirty nine, So in sixty of course stuff. 94 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:46.000 Sorry, I don't do the mathods. 95 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:47.720 I can't do arithmetics. 96 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:50.199 We did, we get the relevance. It had no better 97 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:54.120 to talk to than someone who actually, yeah, well, let's 98 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:56.879 get back to it Dad. So, and we've had discussions 99 00:05:56.959 --> 00:05:59.040 leading up to today and everything, and one of the 100 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:02.279 things is what did that Let's start first, of course, 101 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:04.360 what did they get right? And then it we'll talk 102 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:07.480 about what they got wrong. But first you mentioned why 103 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:10.240 you liked it what within the film and again not 104 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:14.000 being a documentary, but overall in essence, what did they 105 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:14.480 get right? 106 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:18.720 What did they get right? Yes, it's not the trajectory 107 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:25.360 of what happened right. Bob came as a Woody Guthrie 108 00:06:26.759 --> 00:06:33.000 folk music officionado, old timey folk music, music that had 109 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:37.680 been passed down in the mountains, in the hills, whatever, 110 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:42.839 stuff that had been written by labor leader, by labor people. 111 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:45.759 I mean there was you know, folk music. There's a 112 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:52.439 whole mix of things. And uh, that's what he came. 113 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:56.680 That's what he ostensibly and I think in reality at 114 00:06:56.680 --> 00:07:05.720 that time incidentally came to be part of He became 115 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:12.480 part of that world. He stayed within that world, he 116 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:17.800 grew to become a leader in that world, and eventually 117 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:22.439 he moved into another one. And there are a couple 118 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:26.040 of other arcs in that movie. One of them is 119 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:32.439 pretty much correct. It was how and why did he 120 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:36.399 move out of it? What got him? What got him 121 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:39.680 to leave? What pulled him out of it? What? How 122 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:42.040 did he How did why did he get why did 123 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:44.879 he leave it? Was it a struggle to get out 124 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:49.079 of it? Where did he go? How did he? How 125 00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:54.199 did he do it? That part is over the overall 126 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:58.040 part of that is accurate. So I mean that's you know, 127 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:06.399 that's I mean that that's the overall, basic, fundamental, straight 128 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:09.600 line Bob doing story, and that piece of it is 129 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:12.680 very good. The other piece of it that's very very 130 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:13.519 good is the music. 131 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:14.959 Yes, I enjoyed it. 132 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:18.240 I think I didn't think, you know, I read. I 133 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:21.439 have probably read sixty reviews of the movie. 134 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:24.040 At least I know. 135 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:27.759 My friends on Facebook. I'd say ninety percent of them 136 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:29.600 are in the focus work and. 137 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:31.800 They're sending you all the articles up. Sure. 138 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:36.279 Yeah, everybody's posted reviews and I see their views there. 139 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:38.320 It's a common thing. A lot of people know a 140 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:41.120 lot more than I do, incidentally about you know, the 141 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:46.600 story of what happened later. But the music, everybody said 142 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:49.720 the music's very good, And I thought the music is 143 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:54.039 very good, Timothy Fallon, it did a wonderful job learning, 144 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:57.200 you know, learning all this. The woman who plays Joan 145 00:08:57.240 --> 00:08:59.360 Bias is wonderful. 146 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:05.399 They're singing it and they're not dubbed. That's actually their performances. 147 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:09.320 From my understanding is it's actually them performing. And often 148 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:12.080 from my angle, the director, if I might interject here 149 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:15.679 that they did both a studio version so they could 150 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:20.279 get a more higher quality sound, but you prefer to 151 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:24.159 actually use their live performances while they were actually filming, 152 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:28.000 because they captured that energy and the realism of it. 153 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:29.960 So that, yeah, that was an important part. 154 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:34.960 Yeah, so those pieces of it, fundamentally, I think were. 155 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:41.360 We're correct now, so let's flip that coin. You know, 156 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:46.039 they got some things wrong, even within the creative allowance 157 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:48.919 of as I said, it's not a documentary, but still 158 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:51.799 within that there were certain certain aspects of it that 159 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:54.919 you feel were wrong in a way that could have 160 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:59.600 easily been corrected, and you thought, we're really not accurate 161 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:00.879 to the point of concern. 162 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:04.320 Well, the things that bothered me, I mean, you know, 163 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:07.240 it's one thing to say, oh I read about so 164 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:09.919 and so, and he was different from the way he 165 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:14.519 was characterized, or things happened differently. I've read books and 166 00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:18.960 things happen differently. I'm talking about my friends. I'm talking 167 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:23.360 about my first husband, and while we broke up after 168 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:25.919 eleven years together, we said very good friends for the 169 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:26.960 until he died. 170 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:28.159 Let's day Van Ronk. 171 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:32.399 Let's just to qualify I also managed, Yes, I'm talking 172 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:37.919 about people I know and people I knew and my life, 173 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:40.000 I mean, I was part of I was part of 174 00:10:40.039 --> 00:10:44.559 that world, So there were things about it that bother me. 175 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:49.840 I'm talking about Susie, Susie, Bob's first girlfriend, who was 176 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:52.279 one of my closest friends until she died. 177 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:54.799 By Hell Fanning, I believe in the film does a 178 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:56.559 fabulous job as well too. 179 00:10:56.639 --> 00:11:02.759 Yes, he does a very very good dog uh incorrectly 180 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:09.240 playing but following the you know the route that she. 181 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:12.679 Was told she was given, right, I hear, yep. 182 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:17.480 Yep, playing somebody. So some of those things bothered me 183 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:18.840 very much, some of them. 184 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:21.120 Let's get to a little detail there, Terry, if I 185 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:25.399 might as Susie Weatler, we're talking about his girlfriend, and again, 186 00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:28.200 even though it was well played, you felt the characterization 187 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:31.320 was not fair, that she was much more of a 188 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:34.480 person than that kind of this dull eyed, sad person 189 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.919 who hung on every move that Dylan made. That was 190 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:39.240 not accurate in your eyes. 191 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:42.639 Right, let me back up and start with Dave, because 192 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:50.320 my criticism there is Shortervid David Mine met Balgain two 193 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:54.080 days above sitting New York. We became very good friends. 194 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:56.759 He hung out in our house, he slept on our couch. 195 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:03.080 We like him interminably on Marxism, as I write about 196 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:08.080 my book. We played records for him. Dave introduced him 197 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:13.200 to certain poetry. We spent a lot of time together. 198 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:17.720 We played nicol poker, Henny Anti excuse me. Bob was 199 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:22.720 very cheap or very poor or both together almost every day. 200 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:25.399 You know, we spent a lot of time together. We 201 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:27.879 were good friends. When he met Susie, we all became 202 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:34.639 good friends. And Dave was among the many people who 203 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:40.320 mentored who mentored Bob, and I think he was I 204 00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:45.120 think he could legitimately say he was probably one of 205 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:49.759 the most two or three most influenzal And he was 206 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:53.559 a kind of leading musician in the village. He didn't 207 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:56.840 become famous, but he was a leading musician in the village. 208 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:05.200 I became Bob's manager and had certain influence on him. 209 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:08.679 But letting, you know, leaving me as Eifman, just talking 210 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:15.200 about about Dave. The whoever made the movie chose to 211 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:18.879 have a certain limited number of people portrayed in the 212 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:21.879 movie for whatever reason. I mean, they couldn't have everybody 213 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:26.279 who was in his world selected. They you know, they 214 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:31.039 selected fairly well known people to be in the movie, 215 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:35.279 they did not select the Dave, except that they have 216 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:40.200 one little scene with David. Bob Hits Town, Hits New York. 217 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:43.080 He walks into a coffee house in the village and 218 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:45.480 some guy walks up to him and he says one 219 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:48.399 of them Bobs does something about where can you find Woody, 220 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:52.399 and this guy who was obviously Dave, tells him that 221 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:56.440 Woody's in gray Stone, which is at a hospital in 222 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:04.200 New Jersey, and he could go there to me, and 223 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.159 that's it. You niver see Bobby Universitee Dave. 224 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:09.639 Again, and he's never really even identified as Dave and wrong, 225 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:13.960 it's just credits at the end to find out who 226 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:14.399 that guy is. 227 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:17.320 The first time I saw the movie, it went right 228 00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:21.559 by me. I didn't I I had no idea that 229 00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:26.720 that was David. People had told me that Dave did that, 230 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:29.679 but I didn't even notice, you know, it just sort 231 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:34.200 of came and went. I find that kind of insulting 232 00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:39.720 to me because of the way the movie runs. I 233 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:46.279 find putting David at that point in that way saying Hi, Bob, 234 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:50.600 welcome to Woody. Go through Land. Bob comes to Woody, 235 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:53.840 gous three land, He comes to the village. He comes 236 00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:57.600 to folk music, Bob says, hight here is we're gonna 237 00:14:57.639 --> 00:15:01.639 hear your God. And Bob goes and he meets his God, 238 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:06.759 and eventually he works his way out of that scene 239 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:11.879 and into another one and leaves it, leaving all the 240 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:16.759 people in it, including Dave, who's never seen again behind. 241 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:24.320 They do not show Dave showing Bob anything being shown 242 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:28.720 anything bye Bob, having any kind of interaction with Bob. 243 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:36.480 It's Hi Bob, There's Woody over and out and it's like, okay, 244 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:43.120 Van Bronk welcomes Dylan to folk music World. Eventually Dylan 245 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:47.559 leaves Folk Music World, walks out on Dylan, or walks 246 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:52.000 out on Van Ronk. Goodbye Van Ronk, You're left behind. 247 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:55.519 I think it was bloody insulting. I don't know if 248 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:59.679 it was meant that way, maybe not, but it was. 249 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:01.519 That's my take on it. 250 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.279 Oh No, And I know you want to cover a 251 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:08.080 little bit of the relationship with the two women. 252 00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:13.320 The relationship to the women. One of the big arts 253 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:18.480 in the movie is the so called triangle. The so 254 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:25.559 called triangle Bob Susie Joan Buyers, that's a made up 255 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:32.679 triangle that really wasn't there. Bob and Susie met shortly 256 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:36.879 after Bob came to the village. They were together for 257 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:41.399 several years. He met Joan maybe toward the end of 258 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:45.120 his relationship with Susie, but it was not a triangle. 259 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:50.120 Susie was seventeen when she met Bob. She turned eighteen 260 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:54.080 a few months later. She lived with her mother, who's 261 00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:56.799 been a member of the Communist Party, and her stepfather, 262 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:00.279 who liked my parents, and like my parents, they were 263 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:04.440 not very thrilled about their daughter falling in love with 264 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:08.160 a ruffy, would be folks singer. They saw a very 265 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:13.720 iffy financial future in that, and Bob and Susie started 266 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:19.319 to live together in sixty two. One of the things 267 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:23.440 the movie shows is a trip to Italy. Susie going 268 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.400 on a trip to Italy. It's shown as a twelfth 269 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:33.559 week school trip. It wasn't twelve weeks. It was several months. 270 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:37.759 I forget how many six may be. And it wasn't 271 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:44.160 a school trip. It was Susie's mother offering Susie a bribe. 272 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:48.519 I want to get you away from this guy, and 273 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:51.440 this is the way I'm going to do it. Here 274 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:54.480 is an opportunity to go to art school. Because Susie 275 00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:57.480 was an artist. We will send you to art school 276 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:01.960 in Italy, which is like kind of top notch. And 277 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:04.880 in the back of in the back of the whole 278 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:10.200 thing was Susie's mother and her stepfather hoping that Susie 279 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:13.359 would never come back to Bob. Come back to the 280 00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:16.519 United States, yes, but not to Bob. They wanted it 281 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:22.119 to become a permanent separation. Susie went nuts, Should I go, 282 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:24.799 Should I not go? Should I go? Should I not go? 283 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:28.039 I know, we had long talks about it. I kept saying, 284 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:30.880 you know, maybe he won't come back, maybe he will 285 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:34.519 not wait for you. It's it's iffy. And Bob was 286 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:38.599 pissed because he wanted you to say don't go, which 287 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:43.200 I couldn't do. I mean, you know, I couldn't. So 288 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:47.720 that was you know, that was one whole mischaracterization in 289 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:54.079 the movie. However, during that time, Bob was not seeing Joan, 290 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:58.279 He wasn't seeing anybody. Incidentally, I don't believe because we 291 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:00.319 saw a lot of him during that time. Was no 292 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:05.799 other woman. N and Bias did not come dashing down 293 00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:09.640 from Cambridge to hop into bed with Bob Dylan when 294 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:16.759 his putative girlfriend was away Susie. The Susie character is 295 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:23.119 portrayed as a soppy young lady with nothing on her 296 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:28.759 brain but Bob Dylan. She It is a typical, typical 297 00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:33.759 portrayal of a teenage girl by men portrayed by men. 298 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:40.880 It just like any Hollywood movie, no different. Susie was 299 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:44.000 active in core when she was in Bob. With Bob, 300 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:47.480 I think her concern with civil rights affected his songwriting, 301 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:49.839 and I think it led to some of his more 302 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:54.839 politically oriented songs. Susie introduced him to author Rimbau, who 303 00:19:54.880 --> 00:20:00.119 was an early symbolist poet who used odd rhymes and 304 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:06.640 apparently disorganized structure to create poetry. She introduced him to 305 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:12.160 bertol Brett songwriting. She herself created art. I show a 306 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:15.519 photograph of a small piece of book art that she 307 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:18.880 made in nineteen ninety three in my book Bob My 308 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:24.279 Grantwich Village. She wasn't yet making book art when she 309 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:27.839 was with Bob, but she was making art, and she 310 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:33.000 was using found objects to make interesting jewelry. She had 311 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:37.519 a life. She wasn't soppy. She didn't stand around and 312 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:41.359 cry and mourn when Bob was busy. And the triangle 313 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:46.319 between her and Bob and Joan didn't exist. It was 314 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:50.200 created to be part of that arc of tension that 315 00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:55.079 I talk about. Joan was a Cambridge folk singer, a 316 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:58.240 Boston folk singer. She wasn't in New York very much 317 00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:02.000 at all. She and Bob not having a romance when 318 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:07.519 he and Susie were together. And it's insulting to Joan 319 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:12.000 as well as Susie to suggest that Joan came down 320 00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:15.960 and bounced into bed with Bob whenever Susie was away. 321 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:24.440 Should I stop or can I go on? This is 322 00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:28.559 highlighted in a scene that both is good and that 323 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:33.119 bothers me for the most part, and I went back. 324 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:35.440 The reason I went to see the movie a second 325 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:38.279 time was to see if I was correct about the 326 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:42.440 way I remember this, and I was. The movie, for 327 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:47.319 the most part, doesn't show very much representing the huge 328 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:50.920 political conflict that was going on at that time, and 329 00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:56.240 it was a conflict, especially especially among young people in 330 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:59.519 the United States at that time, and it was a 331 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:03.519 conflict that really became a major force in catapulting book 332 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:12.079 to fame. It affected his songwriting. I mean, Bob eventually 333 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:16.960 stopped writing political stuff, but he never stopped writing socially 334 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:21.400 conscious stuff. To day, he writes socially conscious stuff if 335 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:25.480 you read it, if you look at his stuff, and 336 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:29.160 back then he was his songs were even more explicit. 337 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:32.880 The nuclear bomb, the civil rights struggle, the war of 338 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:41.200 the Vietnam these simply aren't really in the movie except 339 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:45.079 in one scene, but these are among the forces that 340 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:49.519 brought people to the village. One scene is devoted to this, 341 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:55.079 and while it's really very good to me because I 342 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:59.599 was there, it's clearly in their show and Tell. It's 343 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:02.519 sort of like, oh, yeah, we're going to give you 344 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:05.160 a bit of background on what the music was all about, 345 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:09.079 and it's the scene. It's the scenes about the Cuban 346 00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:15.039 Middle Missile crisis, which incidentally were very well done, so 347 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.400 you know, there is a good part about them. And 348 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:22.960 then to my perspective, it's that they were showing toll 349 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:28.519 and there was they were used to create something about 350 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:33.599 Bob and Susie and Joan that I think was not 351 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:40.319 well done. Those scenes clearly show the fear that everybody had. 352 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:44.440 People frantically trying to reach drillers, people trying to hail 353 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:49.160 cabs and not able to get them, people calling family members, 354 00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:53.079 just in case they wouldn't be there tomorrow. People. I mean, 355 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:56.920 I had an analysis. I was a left winger, as 356 00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:01.119 you know, and my Marxist analysis told me that all 357 00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:04.119 of this nothing was going to bed, was going to happen. 358 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:07.319 I knew that the whole thing was going to be solved. 359 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:10.200 Still in all, I picked up the phone that night 360 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:15.440 and I called my parents, just in case. Millions of 361 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:20.920 people are doing that kind of thing. So in that 362 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:25.000 and in the movie, Bob is working at the gas 363 00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:29.079 light and a small terrified group of people are riveted 364 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:35.200 to him. Meanwhile, with Susie away, Joan, who is as 365 00:24:35.240 --> 00:24:39.960 scared as anybody else, acts a suitcase, rushes to the village, 366 00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:43.720 can't get a taxi cab, walks to the gas flight 367 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:46.839 from wherever, and she and Bob go to his and 368 00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:51.240 Susie's apartment with a tumble into bed. I got to 369 00:24:51.279 --> 00:25:00.359 tell you something, It was well done. But Dave was 370 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.480 working at the gas light that night. I don't know 371 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:06.640 where the hell Bob was, but he sure as hell 372 00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:11.240 wasn't in the gaslight because David was working there. And 373 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:15.519 the scene in the gas light of a small group 374 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:21.559 of people riveted to Bob is exactly what it looked like. 375 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:27.799 A small group of people rivet it to David. Bob 376 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:30.440 weren't there because I said, I have no idea where 377 00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:35.160 he was in someplace Bias wasn't there. I'm sure she 378 00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:39.200 was in Cambridge. I'm sure she was not in Dylan, 379 00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:43.599 in Dylan in Susie's bed. I don't know, but I 380 00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:49.000 would put my money on it. It was, you know, 381 00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:51.839 I mean it was. It's an interesting thing to do. 382 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:57.160 And nobody but me and the people who Dave and 383 00:25:57.160 --> 00:25:59.759 I took to Sam Wos, which was I'll go to 384 00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:04.440 play in Chinatown after he did his set, and who 385 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:07.799 came back to our apartment none of us would, nobody 386 00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:11.759 else would know. But that's that's the way it was. 387 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.960 And I have always remembered that night. I don't even 388 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:16.599 remember who came back to my apartment. 389 00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:20.519 Yeah, well that's that's. Thank you so much for sharing 390 00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:22.119 it with us, Terry. I want to go to your 391 00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:25.759 book for a moment and read something. It's about your first, 392 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.799 uh not direct encounter, but your first exposure if you will, 393 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:32.799 to Dylan when when your your husband at the time, 394 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:34.559 Dave Van Ronk saw him for the first time. 395 00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:36.960 Am I taking too long to answer, not at all. 396 00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:40.000 This is about you people here, but you have to 397 00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:43.119 say Terry, not me, So please feel free to continue. 398 00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:46.240 I think it's fascinating, and I believe our listeners will 399 00:26:46.279 --> 00:26:49.880 as well. But you start chapter nine and it's titled 400 00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:55.119 Dylan Friend and Client, which he became certainly both a 401 00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:57.119