1 00:00:18,559 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,800 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle's senior elections correspondent at the 3 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,440 Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for knowledge. 4 00:00:29,839 --> 00:00:32,840 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,399 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, 6 00:00:37,719 --> 00:00:40,520 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:40,679 --> 00:00:43,600 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:45,079 --> 00:00:49,280 Our guest today is education expert Beth Acres, Senior Fellow 9 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,240 at the American Enterprise Institute. The US Supreme Court earlier 10 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,679 this week lifted a lower court injunction against the Trump 11 00:00:57,679 --> 00:01:02,880 Administration's efforts to dismantle Department of Education. The decision allows 12 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:07,840 the administration to proceed for now with mass firings of 13 00:01:07,879 --> 00:01:10,760 a forty five year old agency. At a forty five 14 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,159 year old agency that has had a difficult time justifying 15 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,519 its existence. Beth joins us with a little perspective on 16 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,879 this decision and where we go from here. Thank you 17 00:01:20,879 --> 00:01:23,079 so much for joining us on the Federalist Radio Hour. 18 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: Oh you're welcome. I'm glad to be with you today. 19 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,599 Speaker 1: You bet, I mean this was it felt like a 20 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,079 long time coming for the Supreme Court to weigh in. 21 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,680 There are a number of things involved in this decision 22 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,719 that I think that are important. But first of all, 23 00:01:39,159 --> 00:01:45,319 let's begin with what this decision ultimately gives the executive 24 00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:48,000 branch the right to do. I suppose. 25 00:01:48,359 --> 00:01:52,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, So what it allows the administration to do is 26 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,760 basically exactly what it tried to do, which is to 27 00:01:55,799 --> 00:01:58,840 do a really tremendous reduction in force at the Department 28 00:01:58,879 --> 00:02:02,519 of Education, but you know, fall short of allowing them 29 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,719 to you know, quote unquote dismantle or eliminate the department. 30 00:02:06,799 --> 00:02:10,199 It seems like pretty much everyone is an agreement administration, 31 00:02:11,759 --> 00:02:15,479 you know, congressional lawmakers, Supreme Court that in order to 32 00:02:15,479 --> 00:02:19,120 eliminate that department, we would need legislation, and the administration 33 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,919 recognizes that fact. But also, you know, has been granted 34 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,919 the explicit authority by this decision to go ahead and 35 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:31,120 make these reductions in force, which we know are sort 36 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:36,919 of a complimentary strategy to a future closure of the department. 37 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, do you see that in the future of the 38 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,159 Department of Education, Because that's ultimately for a lot of 39 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:47,240 Americans where they would like to see this go. Ultimately, 40 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:53,400 this forty five year old was established by President Jimmy Carter. Yeah, 41 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:58,039 in nineteen seventy nine. There have been concerns about this 42 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,080 agency throughout it's forty five years. Do you see the 43 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:07,639 Department of Education ultimately being a thing of the past. 44 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's a little funny because whether or 45 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,159 not the Department. 46 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,319 Speaker 2: Closes, you know, in name right, as an. 47 00:03:16,439 --> 00:03:23,479 Speaker 3: Entity, it probably matters less than how the bureaucracy is structured. 48 00:03:23,719 --> 00:03:26,479 Speaker 2: So I do not see. 49 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:31,039 Speaker 3: Lawmakers in Congress really jumping at the idea of formerly 50 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,919 formally closing the Department of Education. And so I don't think, 51 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,719 you know, we will see that dream of the right 52 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,479 kind of fulfilled explicitly. But I will say, you know, 53 00:03:44,919 --> 00:03:48,919 in practice, it may be that the huge reductions in 54 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,400 force and sort of some of the reassignment of these 55 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:58,639 policy activities to other agencies may you know, effectively diminish 56 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,479 the role of the federal Department of Education to the 57 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,560 extent that it might as well not be there. And 58 00:04:05,599 --> 00:04:08,039 then I guess, of course that might mean lawmakers would 59 00:04:08,039 --> 00:04:10,960 be more more interested in the idea, But it feels 60 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,439 more like a political liability for lawmakers to actually go 61 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,800 ahead and formally make that change, you know, with not 62 00:04:19,959 --> 00:04:24,839 a tremendous you know, potential political advantage at this point 63 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,160 kind of like I'd say, like the noise has been made, 64 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,439 like the victory has been one in terms of rhetoric, 65 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,360 and then you know, the in effect, like the real 66 00:04:33,399 --> 00:04:38,360 practice of running federal education policy, both K twelve and 67 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:43,240 Higher ED will be changed by the way that these 68 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:48,079 agencies are staffed, by the way that the policy infrastructure 69 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,720 holds these programs, and those you know changes are all 70 00:04:52,759 --> 00:04:56,439 within the authority of the current administration and future administration. 71 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,839 So you know, in effect, I think we'll see a 72 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,279 practical closure of the Department, if. 73 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 2: Not in name. 74 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: It's interesting to me that conservatives Republicans have been talking 75 00:05:10,879 --> 00:05:14,399 about closing the Department of Education for a long time, 76 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,560 in some cases as long as it's been in existence. 77 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,240 But there's been a growing chorus, of course of these 78 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:25,560 I remember then Texas Governor Rick Perry struggling to remember 79 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,079 during a debate the three agencies that he would close. 80 00:05:29,199 --> 00:05:32,680 I think I can't remember now if he struggled with 81 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,160 the Department of Education, but that's what he was talking 82 00:05:36,199 --> 00:05:41,040 about during the two thousand and twelve election cycle. But 83 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,000 try as they might. And again this is you know, 84 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,360 obviously a congressional matter as well. We haven't seen any 85 00:05:50,519 --> 00:05:55,720 movement on that front until Trump two point zero. Why, 86 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,800 I think I understand in large part why that is 87 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:05,639 because you have had Democrat governors excuse been Democrat president 88 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,120 since that time, in Barack Obama and Joe Biden. They 89 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:14,079 are absolutely beholden by the you know, the eduocrats and 90 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:18,720 the unions. But why hasn't there been more of a 91 00:06:18,759 --> 00:06:23,720 forceful move from Republicans over the years to at least 92 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,920 attempt to rein in the Department of Education. 93 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:29,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, good question. 94 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,199 Speaker 3: I mean, I think there is a natural constituency for 95 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:38,000 this kind of small government constrained federal role. I mean 96 00:06:38,199 --> 00:06:41,079 maybe a lot of your listeners are, you know, in 97 00:06:41,079 --> 00:06:44,319 that genre of thinkers, But I just don't think like 98 00:06:44,519 --> 00:06:48,920 on the national stage that's like a really big winning message, 99 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:49,920 at least. 100 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 2: Not until now. 101 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,439 Speaker 3: I mean a lot of the movement that we're seeing 102 00:06:53,439 --> 00:06:56,279 a policy right now is in the higher ED space. 103 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,399 And what we've seen is that public sentiment has shifted, 104 00:07:00,439 --> 00:07:04,160 you know, in the negative on higher ED in recent years. 105 00:07:04,199 --> 00:07:06,879 It seems like Americans are much more skeptical of what 106 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,120 higher ED is doing, and I think that's empowered a 107 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,560 lot of conservative lawmakers, both on the administration side and 108 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,120 also some of the big changes we've seen. 109 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,199 Speaker 2: With the reconciliation legislation. 110 00:07:19,399 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean these are long held ideals by people. 111 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,319 Speaker 2: Who kind of, you know, live and breed these values. 112 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 3: Of small government, but they have been kind of empowered, 113 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,279 i'd say, by this political moment where Americans have this 114 00:07:34,439 --> 00:07:38,639 dissatisfaction with education kind of at a scale. 115 00:07:38,319 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: Where it has bubbled up to being a you. 116 00:07:41,319 --> 00:07:47,839 Speaker 3: Know, portfolio like a campaign portfolio issue for federal lawmakers, 117 00:07:47,879 --> 00:07:49,959 which is really the first time I've seen. 118 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 2: That in my career. 119 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: Do you think Americans are at that point largely because 120 00:07:55,839 --> 00:08:02,279 of three letters D E I actually equity and inclusion, 121 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,560 and that of course has been infused at higher education 122 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,240 for a long time. Yeah, and it certainly is rampant 123 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,800 in public education. 124 00:08:12,639 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 2: I would say yes, and I'll zoom out a little bit. 125 00:08:15,759 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 3: I think there are two threads that are taking Americans 126 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,600 down this road. One is, you know, what I would 127 00:08:21,639 --> 00:08:25,279 more broadly describe as the cultural issues facing college campuses, 128 00:08:25,319 --> 00:08:27,639 and I think DEI is a part of that that 129 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,439 was clearly a like a winning political message for the 130 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,440 Trump administration in gaining a second term. 131 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: But also I think, you know, following the news of the. 132 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 3: Hamas attacks on Israel, I think there was a demonstration 133 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,879 of a behavior on college campus that kind of highlighted 134 00:08:47,919 --> 00:08:51,279 for Americans that you know, like we had been talking 135 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,919 for a long time about like this progressive like ownership 136 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,279 of higher ed and you know, this lack of opportunity 137 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,279 for like real free speech on college campuses. But I 138 00:09:00,279 --> 00:09:03,200 think it was a bit theoretical, and I think, you know, 139 00:09:03,279 --> 00:09:07,440 the demonstrations from students, like the literal demonstrations, but also 140 00:09:07,799 --> 00:09:12,679 the behavior demonstrated something that I think most Americans don't 141 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:17,159 feel comfortable with. And so I think that highlighted the 142 00:09:17,159 --> 00:09:20,919 cultural issues facing college campuses in a new way. 143 00:09:21,039 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 2: It elevated that issues. 144 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:25,759 Speaker 3: For Americans, you know, And I think that goes hand 145 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,279 in hand with the conversations around DEI And I'm an economist, 146 00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:33,039 so source I of course I see the dollars and 147 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,919 cents of every issue. I think another reason for this 148 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:41,159 dissatisfaction is that, you know, we've pushed Americans into this 149 00:09:41,279 --> 00:09:45,759 idea that a college degree is the only pathway to 150 00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:48,919 the American dream. And I think that we have done 151 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,759 a disservice to Americans by selling them this like false 152 00:09:52,879 --> 00:09:57,399 golden ticket to prosperity, and they're kind of onto us, 153 00:09:57,519 --> 00:09:59,519 you know, it's like, Okay, wait a minute. You know, 154 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,039 you prompt I get this bachelor's degree and I'm now 155 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,480 part of this upper class of Americans. But in practice 156 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,360 that doesn't always happen, and I think Americans have become 157 00:10:08,399 --> 00:10:12,000 more skeptical of this promise that they've been sold, and 158 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:17,440 Higher ED plays like a really central role in that promise. Yeah. 159 00:10:17,519 --> 00:10:21,519 Speaker 1: I think that's a great point, and this opinion, this 160 00:10:21,639 --> 00:10:25,399 decision from the Supreme Court gets into a big part 161 00:10:25,399 --> 00:10:28,240 of that. We'll talk about that coming up in just 162 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:34,159 a moment. But also as we look at the dollars 163 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,759 and sense of it all, we saw the federal government 164 00:10:37,919 --> 00:10:44,679 push in hundreds of billions of dollars during COVID into education, 165 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,360 and we saw the results of that, and I think 166 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,279 the Department of Education was on the front line of 167 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,720 that failure. Do you think that that has had an 168 00:10:54,759 --> 00:10:56,720 impact in the minds of Americans. 169 00:10:57,279 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: I think it's possible, but to be honest, I don't. 170 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 3: I think most Americans, you know, have the luxury of 171 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,000 understanding like the nuance of the bureaucracies of the federal government. 172 00:11:08,159 --> 00:11:10,399 You know, like I think there's a sense the federal 173 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,519 government is doing too much and they're not doing the 174 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:13,320 right things here. 175 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: And whether that comes from an agency that's. 176 00:11:15,879 --> 00:11:19,039 Speaker 3: Called Department of Education or it's coming from Health and 177 00:11:19,159 --> 00:11:21,559 Human Services, you know, I think. 178 00:11:21,399 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 2: We're very cut up, you know, being part. 179 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,279 Speaker 3: Of this Washington bubble with you know, the explicit idea 180 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,759 of a closure of a particular department. But I think 181 00:11:30,799 --> 00:11:33,799 most Americans it's more about the spirit of this change, 182 00:11:33,799 --> 00:11:37,000 which is capturing you know, I don't like what's happening, 183 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,279 you know, and something needs to change, and this feels 184 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,879 like a symbol of that sentiment. And I think that's 185 00:11:44,919 --> 00:11:47,759 what that's what Americans are excited about more so than 186 00:11:48,159 --> 00:11:52,759 you know, this explicit you know, reorganization strategy for the bureaucracy. 187 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it does get in the weeds for Americans, 188 00:11:56,279 --> 00:11:59,759 I'm sure, But we're talking about a bloated federal government 189 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,240 and general that's been a conversation that we've had for 190 00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:06,360 a long time, and I think the Department of Government 191 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:11,039 Efficiency pushed that to the forefront. Whatever side you're on 192 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:17,799 in that battle, It's clear that President Trump, in Trump 193 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,600 two point zero, would like to see the end of 194 00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:23,720 the Department of Education. His executive order earlier this year 195 00:12:23,919 --> 00:12:27,200 was I'll read part of it, get your response to it. 196 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,879 The experiment of controlling American education through federal programs and 197 00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:36,960 dollars and the unaccountable bureaucracy those programs and dollars support 198 00:12:37,799 --> 00:12:42,120 has plainly failed our children, our teachers, and our families. 199 00:12:43,159 --> 00:12:46,799 What do you think of that sentiment as the administration 200 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:53,799 continues to move to drastically cut and draw back the 201 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:54,879 Department of Education. 202 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 3: You know, I do think it's fair to say that 203 00:12:57,879 --> 00:13:03,360 the department, the federal Department of Education, has enabled more 204 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,039 meddling in what should be a state issue, which is 205 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:12,000 K twelve education, than would you know, be allowed otherwise. 206 00:13:12,039 --> 00:13:14,039 So I do think that, you know, as much as 207 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,679 I'm saying this is kind of an arbitrary you know, 208 00:13:16,759 --> 00:13:19,279 these these boundaries of one agency to the next are 209 00:13:19,279 --> 00:13:22,840 not that important. I do think that the existence of 210 00:13:22,879 --> 00:13:26,679 a Department of Education has allowed for almost like this 211 00:13:26,879 --> 00:13:32,840 internal lobbying structure that has caused federal policy to be, 212 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:38,519 you know, excessively heavy handed on the K twelve side. 213 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:40,879 And then you know, like practically when it comes to 214 00:13:40,919 --> 00:13:45,000 the Higher ED side, you know, Higher ED does have 215 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,919 some you know, pretty important federal programming, but it is 216 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:53,639 not programming that fits very well within the current conception 217 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,759 of what the Department of Education is, which are you know, 218 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,559 education professionals, you know, because as the federal intervention at 219 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,519 the Higher ED level is really a financial intervention. And 220 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,720 you know, even people like myself who I don't really 221 00:14:08,759 --> 00:14:12,399 identify it as like a very super strong small government person, 222 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,960 but you know, as a conservative, you know, have had 223 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,480 the feeling for a long time that, you know. 224 00:14:17,639 --> 00:14:19,679 Speaker 2: Whether we close the torrent education or not. 225 00:14:19,879 --> 00:14:24,279 Speaker 3: I'd love to see the federal financial aid programs managed 226 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,240 by a different agency where the staffing is more appropriate 227 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,919 to the function that they're actually taking on. 228 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 2: So I mean, I think there's you know, the. 229 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 3: Idea, like the pure ideological motive of you know, smaller 230 00:14:37,279 --> 00:14:42,720 government eliminating that internal influence to affect policy and maybe 231 00:14:42,799 --> 00:14:47,279 enabling the overreach of federal policy making, but also just 232 00:14:47,399 --> 00:14:50,440 the practical I mean this is, you know, an. 233 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,919 Speaker 2: Inappropriately staffed agency. 234 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,759 Speaker 3: For the task at hand, for even for those places 235 00:14:56,799 --> 00:15:01,519 where I think even a lot of Republicans and conservative thinkers. 236 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:02,799 Speaker 2: Feel like there is a federal role. 237 00:15:02,919 --> 00:15:05,759 Speaker 3: So, you know, the as much as this has become 238 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,960 political rhetoric for you know, the current administration, I mean 239 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,960 there's some really sound reasons, even you know, how to 240 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,200 moxt more moderate thinkers that this is, you know, as 241 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,440 I've written before, not a crazy idea at all. 242 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 4: The Federal Reserve Offices in DC are getting an extreme 243 00:15:26,279 --> 00:15:29,159 Soviet makeover. The Watched Out on Wall Street podcast with 244 00:15:29,279 --> 00:15:32,440 Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between 245 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,840 politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. 246 00:15:34,879 --> 00:15:37,679 The Federal Reserve Offices are getting a two point five 247 00:15:37,759 --> 00:15:42,039 billion dollar renovation. For perspective, Jerry Jones built Cowboys Stadium 248 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,720 for one point one five billion. Whether it's happening in 249 00:15:44,799 --> 00:15:47,159 DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 250 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:47,759 Speaker 3: Be informed. 251 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,679 Speaker 4: Check out the Watched Out on Wall Street podcast with 252 00:15:49,759 --> 00:15:53,600 Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 253 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: Our guest today is Beth Aker, Senior Fellow at the 254 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,559 American Enterprise Institute. We're talking about the US Supreme Court's 255 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:09,320 decision recently to lift the Lower court injunction against the 256 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:15,159 Trump administration's efforts to dismantle the Department of Education. Massive 257 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:20,000 job cuts there, and a lot of Americans believe rightly. 258 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,360 So I want to talk about the legal side of 259 00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:27,799 this for a moment, if you don't mind. This was 260 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,879 an injunction from the lower court system. Once again, the 261 00:16:32,919 --> 00:16:37,480 lower courts have had a very difficult time, it seems 262 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:42,399 to me, with executive branch power. And the question comes up, 263 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,440 and it's a good one every time, if previous presidents, 264 00:16:47,639 --> 00:16:51,799 and in this case, if President Joe Biden and President 265 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,600 Barack Obama can do all these things to expand the 266 00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:00,320 Department of Education, why can't a Republican president in this 267 00:17:00,519 --> 00:17:05,119 President Donald Trump do what he wants in his agenda 268 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:11,240 with his electoral mandate to reduce the footprint of the 269 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:12,480 Department of Education. 270 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 2: M hmm, Yeah. 271 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's a very fair observation, and 272 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:21,319 I think the message from the court was very clear 273 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,039 and saying that that's exactly what this administration is allowed 274 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:29,880 to do as long as they stay short of, you know, 275 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,160 what is required by legislation, they absolutely have the authority 276 00:17:34,559 --> 00:17:37,440 to do that. And you know, very clearly there's a 277 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,000 lot of Democrats that have angs over the fact that 278 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,400 this administration is using a lot of the same authorities 279 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,440 that they use that they now perceive as an overreach. 280 00:17:47,839 --> 00:17:51,799 But you know, during the Biden administration, seemed like an 281 00:17:51,799 --> 00:17:56,920 appropriate way to exert their influence over these sectors. So, 282 00:17:57,599 --> 00:18:01,839 I mean, politics is always rife with hypocrisy. 283 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 2: And I think this is a good example of that. 284 00:18:03,559 --> 00:18:07,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that is really the most telling point 285 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,279 here when we're looking at these lower court decisions and 286 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:14,640 these nationwide injunctions, which the Supreme Court one of the 287 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:19,559 last decisions of the most recent term, said, listen, lower courts, 288 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:26,880 you have to understand that nationwide injunctions from district courts 289 00:18:27,079 --> 00:18:31,440 are not the practice of this federal court system. On 290 00:18:31,599 --> 00:18:35,359 rare occasions you can do that. We also have district 291 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,960 courts that have decided that Congress no longer has the 292 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,559 power of the first strings when we're talking about the 293 00:18:43,559 --> 00:18:47,799 issues of a funding planned parenthood, for instance. So was 294 00:18:47,839 --> 00:18:52,799 this any surprise that we would get this kind of opposition, 295 00:18:53,279 --> 00:18:57,480 certainly from Biden and Obama appointed federal judges. 296 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,799 Speaker 3: I mean, I think we can say it's pointing that 297 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:08,400 you know, the judiciary has, you know, this politicized existence 298 00:19:08,519 --> 00:19:12,720 and that you know, we cannot count on judges to 299 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,680 weigh in on these issues in a non politicized manner. 300 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,559 But I don't think it was particularly surprising. And you know, 301 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,400 I'd like to think that conservative judges wouldn't do the 302 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,279 same in reverse, but you know, until that's tested, I'm 303 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,799 not sure i'd say confidently that we wouldn't see the 304 00:19:30,799 --> 00:19:31,599 same in reverse. 305 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:32,839 Speaker 2: I think that's. 306 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,079 Speaker 3: Quite unfortunately the nature of our political infrastructure. 307 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: Well, let's take a look at the Department of Education 308 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:46,279 as mega lender. You talked about where we stand now 309 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:51,599 in forty five years, thanks to legislation, thanks to Congress, 310 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,839 thanks to executive orders, this Department of Education has been 311 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,519 an entity onto itself, a country unto itself in the 312 00:19:59,559 --> 00:20:06,720 amount of money that goes through college borrowing. You had 313 00:20:06,839 --> 00:20:12,400 the Biden fix attempt, which certainly was unconstitutional, which was 314 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,519 to write off these loans, you know, on the backs 315 00:20:16,559 --> 00:20:20,319 of American taxpayers, many of them who did not pay 316 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,319 for a college education, and felt, you know, that they 317 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:30,400 were built by this. But what can the Trump administration, 318 00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:33,759 what is it doing? What can the Trump administration and 319 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:40,240 Congress do to change this system which has many, many 320 00:20:40,279 --> 00:20:41,759 problems in it. 321 00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 3: It does have many, many problems, but I will say 322 00:20:44,319 --> 00:20:47,079 I'm sort of sitting in an optimistic moment right now 323 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,240 because a lot of the changes I've been advocating for 324 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,960 for a long time in this program were successfully made 325 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,960 through the Reconciliation legislation. So we saw a few things happen. 326 00:21:00,039 --> 00:21:04,440 And you know, when President Biden failed in canceling student 327 00:21:04,519 --> 00:21:07,920 debt because the court stood up and said it was illegal, 328 00:21:08,079 --> 00:21:11,400 not to mention, unfair, to just wipe away the student. 329 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,039 Speaker 2: Debt of people who had benefited from. 330 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 3: College, he basically tried another, like I think they called 331 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,000 it Plan B even explicitly, and it was basically to 332 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,480 create a repayment plan for borrowers that you kind of 333 00:21:22,559 --> 00:21:25,240 just didn't make them repay their loans. And so we're 334 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,599 still waiting for the courts to weigh in on, you know, 335 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,240 whether that will be allowed to stand. I think most 336 00:21:31,279 --> 00:21:34,359 people are in agreement that this is something that will 337 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,079 be overturned as well. 338 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 2: So you know what the what the. 339 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 3: Legislation does is puts in place of reasonable repayment plans 340 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,480 for borrowers so that if you're somebody went off to college, 341 00:21:45,279 --> 00:21:47,599 you know saw the benefit. You know you you paid 342 00:21:47,599 --> 00:21:50,000 a price up front, but you borrowed to do that, 343 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:51,680 and then you went off and got a great job, 344 00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:53,880 and you know, are a good job and you're able 345 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,599 to afford to repay taxpayers the money that you borrowed 346 00:21:56,599 --> 00:21:57,000 from them. 347 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:58,799 Speaker 2: You will be asked to do that. 348 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 3: And so, you know, instead of this kind of crazy 349 00:22:01,799 --> 00:22:04,920 backdoor forgiveness plan that President Biden tried to put in 350 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,200 place and sort of half succeeded in getting, you know, 351 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,440 put in place, we have really a reasonable or payment structure. 352 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,519 But that also provides some protection for borrowers who you know, 353 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,920 do find themselves kind of in trouble and you know, 354 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,000 things happen people. We rely on higher education to be 355 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,440 a mechanism, really the mechanism for social mobility for the 356 00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:29,200 US economy, and so it kind of really needs to work, 357 00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:32,759 you know, and like sometimes college doesn't work, and sometimes 358 00:22:32,759 --> 00:22:35,319 it works. You know, it doesn't work for no fault 359 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:36,920 of the individual borrower. 360 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 2: And so the new. 361 00:22:38,039 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 3: Legislation leaves in place these protections to say, if you're 362 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,200 someone who paid for college, it didn't work for you. 363 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:48,000 Maybe your college was lousy, they closed, or your profession 364 00:22:48,519 --> 00:22:51,519 you know, was replaced by AI or something you know, 365 00:22:51,799 --> 00:22:54,359 your loans will be forgiven ultimately after you show you 366 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,880 know you've had sufficient hard ship and. 367 00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 2: Repaying those loans. But those are a good changes. 368 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 3: I mean that brings us back to the whole point, 369 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,039 which is that Americans are willing to lend money to 370 00:23:07,079 --> 00:23:09,559 people to make these investments that for the most part 371 00:23:09,599 --> 00:23:13,319 are good in their education and their skill development, so 372 00:23:13,319 --> 00:23:15,319 that they can contribute to the workforce as long as 373 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,440 they pay those dollars back. And so legislation brings us 374 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,200 back to that model, which is actually a lending model, 375 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,039 and at the same time, it puts institutions more on 376 00:23:24,079 --> 00:23:26,240 the hook. So you know, we're going to stop making 377 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:31,240 loans to programs of study that have consistently really poor 378 00:23:31,319 --> 00:23:34,759 earnings outcomes for their graduates. And the bar is low, 379 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,920 but previously there was no bar, so this is a 380 00:23:38,039 --> 00:23:41,839 huge step forward. Basically, it says that as a program 381 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,440 of study, like you're the major at every major, at 382 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,119 every accredited you know, funded institution, has to prove that 383 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,559 their graduates are out earning the median earner with a 384 00:23:52,599 --> 00:23:54,279 high school diploma in that state. 385 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,319 Speaker 2: So low bar, but better than no bar. 386 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 3: And basically we're going to stop making a lot of 387 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,960 those loans that were never you know, should never have 388 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,680 been made in the first place because the borrowers had 389 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,480 no shot in being able to pay back. 390 00:24:09,559 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 2: So the combo of. 391 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,319 Speaker 3: Those things, I think really sets us in the right 392 00:24:13,319 --> 00:24:17,440 direction in a big way on student lending, following an 393 00:24:17,519 --> 00:24:20,440 era where you know, the proposals that were coming from 394 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,920 the left were really just off the wall. 395 00:24:23,079 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: Pether, are you telling me that Lithuanian folk art isn't 396 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:34,720 a master's stroke in terms of a professional road that's 397 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:42,240 going to have a huge payoff, or perhaps trans Icelandic poetry? 398 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,640 Are you saying Are you saying that those areas of 399 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,960 study won't lead to a profitable human being? 400 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 3: It turns out empirically speaking, no. And what I will 401 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,160 say in defense of those fields, I would love for 402 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,079 people who have the resources to pay for that themselves 403 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,319 to still be able to study those things. That's what's 404 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,480 great about America. But I, as a taxpayer, do not 405 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,759 want to be funding it, nor do I want other 406 00:25:08,839 --> 00:25:10,960 taxpayers to be on the hook to pay when these 407 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,880 people cannot repay their loans. And that is the direction 408 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,440 that this legislation takes us, which is a great thing. 409 00:25:17,799 --> 00:25:20,559 Speaker 1: Well, I guess that leads to my next question. How 410 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:28,000 culpable is the Department of Education in the high, high 411 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,160 cost some and oftentimes the unattainable cost of higher education 412 00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:34,279 in America today? 413 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,559 Speaker 3: Well, I say partly, and I put some of the 414 00:25:37,599 --> 00:25:40,880 blame on Congress too, because you know, as we've expanded 415 00:25:41,559 --> 00:25:46,799 eligibility for federal lending and increased Pelgram eligibility, that has 416 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,160 translated to increasing costs. But the other thing, and those 417 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,920 changes have come from the Congress side, But the things 418 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,680 that have changed from the administrative side are that we 419 00:25:57,759 --> 00:26:00,640 have introduced these programs that mean that you know, that 420 00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:03,920 borrowers can make reduce payments in times when they have 421 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,480 low income, and that results in them often not paying 422 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,680 back their loans at all. And that actually happens quite 423 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,000 often for you know, more well off borrowers than you 424 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,640 would like to think. That translates almost directly to increased costs. 425 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,200 I mean, we even had a case of Georgetown Law 426 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,279 School was basically, you know, advising their students on the 427 00:26:23,279 --> 00:26:27,200 front end, like, hey, you should keep borrowing because you're 428 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:28,799 not gonna have to pay it back, you know, once 429 00:26:28,799 --> 00:26:31,279 you get to this amount because of this federal program 430 00:26:31,319 --> 00:26:34,799 I mean, they got kind of exposed in the media 431 00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:36,720 and how to change their ways. But you know, the 432 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,559 incentives were very apparent institutions, which is, your students. 433 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 2: Don't have to pay this price. 434 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 3: They're never going to pay back their loans, so you 435 00:26:44,319 --> 00:26:46,519 might as well charge whatever you want. And that was, 436 00:26:46,599 --> 00:26:49,519 you know, especially true for graduate and professional schools, less 437 00:26:49,519 --> 00:26:53,640 true for undergrad But I would say we've definitely had 438 00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:58,799 a federal policy regime that contributes substantially to the inflation 439 00:26:58,880 --> 00:26:59,440 that we've seen. 440 00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: Trump notes the unaccountable bureaucracy. I think if anything is 441 00:27:05,799 --> 00:27:09,440 true about the Department of Education, it is that it 442 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:14,559 has so many occasions been unaccountable. I think about a 443 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,839 series of investigative reports I did back around twenty fourteen 444 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:24,240 twenty fifteen in the Obama era, where these dear Colleague 445 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:30,920 letters started hitting everywhere, and I remember the Milwaukee parental 446 00:27:31,039 --> 00:27:36,440 choice school system was subject to between the Department of 447 00:27:36,519 --> 00:27:40,839 Education and the Department of Justice, a series of investigations 448 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:48,200 and harassment simply because they existed. And I wonder if 449 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,680 the changes that Trump is making, what he can do 450 00:27:52,759 --> 00:27:58,759 on the executive end, will end that kind of power 451 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,880 trip from the Department and of education. 452 00:28:01,559 --> 00:28:03,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm less an expert on the K 453 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,880 twelve side, but you know, I think one criticism of 454 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,880 the current administration that is fair is that they have 455 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,079 used similar tactics themselves. I mean, even in addressing the 456 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,039 real issues that are happening at some of the elite 457 00:28:17,079 --> 00:28:19,440 college campuses, you know, in the way that the administration 458 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,200 has communicated and dealt with Harvard and Columbia. I mean, 459 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,839 there are real issues there to address, but I do 460 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,839 think the you know, kind of overreach or violation of 461 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,680 process that we saw the administration utilizing to address those 462 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,319 issues kind of felt too similar to me to the 463 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,920 overreach that we've seen in democratic administrations, and so I'd 464 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,920 love to see us move away from that kind of 465 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,880 heavy handed approach of federal involvement at all. 466 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: I get what you're saying, but I think Americans have 467 00:28:53,039 --> 00:28:57,079 really gotten to the point where they are absolutely sick 468 00:28:57,359 --> 00:29:02,599 of institutions of higher education promoting you know, really completely 469 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:09,119 anti American forms of indocrination is what it is. 470 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:10,039 Speaker 2: Yep, yep. 471 00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 3: And you know a lot of my close friends, of course, 472 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,640 are you know, involved in these these movements, and then 473 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,400 that's exactly what they say as you say, Beth, Yeah, 474 00:29:19,519 --> 00:29:22,799 like would love to just follow standard processes, not make 475 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:23,920 like a big fuss. 476 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 2: Out of all this. 477 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 3: But we have tried that, you know, year after year, 478 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,960 administration after administration, we have tried to do things in 479 00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:34,039 kind of like a less boisterous way, and that has 480 00:29:34,119 --> 00:29:35,759 not worked in affecting change. 481 00:29:35,759 --> 00:29:37,519 Speaker 2: And so that you know, that is the idea. I 482 00:29:37,559 --> 00:29:39,440 get it. I'm sympathetic to that as well. 483 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,839 Speaker 1: All right, final question for you. I appreciate the generosity 484 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,599 of your time today, and that is this, where does 485 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,400 higher education go from here? Where do you see higher 486 00:29:51,519 --> 00:29:59,720 education ten years down the line into the next several decades. 487 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,759 Speaker 3: I think that higher education is facing or reckoning at 488 00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:07,680 the moment. And it's not a reckoning caused by lawmakers 489 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,279 or federal or state interventions. It's reckoning that Americans are 490 00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:14,039 questioning what is higher ed, what's it worth? 491 00:30:14,079 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 2: And what's it doing for me? 492 00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:19,279 Speaker 3: And as much as the government pays for the continued 493 00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:23,440 existence of this sector, they need Americans to be bought in. 494 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,839 And I think, and I maybe this is hopeful more 495 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,839 than it is a prediction. I hope that we will 496 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:37,119 see institutions responding to the fact that Americans want programs 497 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:43,359 to be you know, creating, focus on creating opportunity and 498 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,720 economic financial opportunity for their students more than you know, 499 00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:53,359 this sort of politicized indoctrination of ideas or you know, 500 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,279 the notion of developing citizens in one light or another. 501 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 4: You know. 502 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 3: I hope we can move away from that, and I 503 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:03,440 think the demand for Americans will push institutions in the direction. 504 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,480 Whether or not the policy or legal infrastructure around higher 505 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,160 ED will enable them to be innovative enough to really 506 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,200 move quickly, I don't know, but I'm hopeful that we'll 507 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:15,400 see some changes. 508 00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 2: In that direction. 509 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,759 Speaker 1: I hope they's sustaining those changes as well, because we've 510 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,039 certainly experienced a good deal of whiplash over the years 511 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:30,359 in terms of politics and education. Ultimately, the idea should 512 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,160 be to provide the best education possible. There are a 513 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,640 lot of moving parts and players in that, but that 514 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:44,359 should be without the sort of indoctrination we've seen campuses 515 00:31:44,359 --> 00:31:45,400 across the country. 516 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. 517 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: Thanks to my guest today, Beth Akers, senior fellow at 518 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,799 the American Enterprise Institute, you've been listening to another edition 519 00:31:53,799 --> 00:31:56,960 of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittles, Senior Elections 520 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,559 correspondent at The Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. 521 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:08,119 Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.