WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.040 And what I'm hoping is with the new administration, we'll 2 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:07.480 see the Marshall's Service relinquish their role and will allow 3 00:00:07.559 --> 00:00:10.119 Treasury to do the thing that they do. And I 4 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:13.119 think that's when we'll start to see things make sense 5 00:00:13.160 --> 00:00:16.359 and so to account for it's actually really simple, and 6 00:00:16.399 --> 00:00:17.760 this is one of the things we've done with one 7 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:21.679 of the agencies already. 8 00:00:23.879 --> 00:00:26.199 This episode is brought to you by Propy, which is 9 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:29.960 leading to charge in putting real estate on chain. Propy 10 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:32.640 is a game changer. You can buy and sell real 11 00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:36.960 estate with cryptocurrencies using the propty platform, which is powered 12 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:39.759 by a blockchain of course, and they have a native 13 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:43.079 token call pro and I've been an investor in the 14 00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:46.840 Propy token since twenty eighteen. So Propy is a licensed 15 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:50.880 Web three pioneer operating since twenty seventeen. They have facilitated 16 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:54.759 over four billion dollars in transactions. They're putting titles and 17 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:58.640 deeds on chain. They use Coinbase for their crypto escro service. 18 00:00:59.039 --> 00:01:01.880 So this is a great platform and once again they 19 00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:03.799 are ahead of the curve when it comes to putting 20 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:06.599 real estate on chain. And they just launch a great 21 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:09.480 campaign where you can earn some of the Propy tokens, 22 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:13.280 and it's simply by doing tasks such as sharing their 23 00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:16.840 vision video, signing up and inviting a friend and much 24 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:19.480 more so. If you'd like to learn more about Propy, 25 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:22.680 visit the link in the description. Welcome into the Thinking 26 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:25.519 Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward, and my guest 27 00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:28.719 today is Les Boresaid, who's the co founder of Wave 28 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:31.120 Digital Assets. Les. Great to have you on. 29 00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:34.359 Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. LUs. 30 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:37.239 You have a very fascinating background in the music industry 31 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:40.200 and of course in the crypto industry, and I have 32 00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:42.120 a lot of questions for you and to get your 33 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:45.840 perspective on how things are progressing now with crypto, especially 34 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:48.560 as the United States is looking to build a bitcoin reserve, 35 00:01:48.680 --> 00:01:51.879 digital stockpile, and much more. But let's start with your background, 36 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:54.400 where you're from and what's your professional background. 37 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:57.239 Yeah, so I grew up in Los Angeles and at 38 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:01.120 a pretty young age I lef home. I left home 39 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:04.719 at sixteen, and I had to figure out how to 40 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:07.840 make a living. And the easiest thing I could come 41 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:09.479 up with at the time when I was a little 42 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:14.039 bit older seventeen or eighteen, was throwing parties, and I 43 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:19.039 would borrow warehouses and kind of put a party together 44 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:22.560 and charge admission and charged for beer even though I 45 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:26.400 wasn't nearly enough to drink at the time. And you know, 46 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:29.960 that ultimately rolled into being the first incarnation of what 47 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:34.479 the rave culture would become in Los Angeles. And just 48 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:37.199 by doing I ended up becoming a concert promoter, one 49 00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:41.039 of the large concert promotion companies, and it did become 50 00:02:41.719 --> 00:02:46.159 the rave business. So you know, that's where the music 51 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:49.240 business career started. And I kind of moved into every 52 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:52.599 facet of it in terms of record companies and artists 53 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:56.520 management and a lot of different tech and music was 54 00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:57.319 a big thing for me. 55 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:01.639 Yeah, and in your background, I read here you managed 56 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:05.240 Winona Judge and Jason Maraz, which is really cool. I'm 57 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:08.319 a fan of Jason. I saw him and play live 58 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:11.560 in person. What was that like, you know, managing. 59 00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:14.159 Artists like that, you know, with Jason, you know, my 60 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:16.680 partner at the time was a guy named Bill Silva, 61 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:20.560 who's a great guy, still friends today. And Bill Bill 62 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:25.360 discovered Jason, and you know, we started a management company. 63 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:28.800 You know that Bill wanted to start and Jason was 64 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:32.400 a unique person and a unique talent, you know, so 65 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:35.199 so far. You know, with most of the artists I've 66 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:37.719 ever worked with, you know, there always seemed to be 67 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:41.360 something missing that drove the art and drove the creativity 68 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:46.120 and the music. And Jason, you know, he wasn't chasing something. 69 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:49.319 He was just this nice kid, and you know, it 70 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:53.960 was fun kind of exploring, you know, bands he had 71 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:57.319 not discovered and watching him grow. But he was. He 72 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:02.039 was just talent from the beginning, and it just made it. 73 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:05.360 You know. He used to say, all those other bands 74 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:09.400 you manage are coffee, I'm tea, and that That's really 75 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:11.840 what it was. I mean, it was just a good 76 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:15.360 experience with him where others were you know, I tended 77 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:17.199 to manage the bands that were really really hard. 78 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:20.959 Yeah, he definitely has a different personality and I think 79 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:24.560 that's what gravitated. I gravitated to him and his music 80 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:29.240 and of course, you know, the vibes from his music 81 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:31.360 and things like that. And I was also learning guitar, 82 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:34.600 so I was kind of stuttying what he was doing. 83 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:37.319 So that's really cool. Now, how did you end up 84 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:39.720 going into crypto because I also read you were an 85 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:42.160 advisor to Ripple Labs in early. 86 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:46.839 Days will Am. So that happened in twenty thirteen. You know, 87 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:52.240 like with anything, I always tended to gravitate towards things 88 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:54.519 that made, you know, that I had an interest for 89 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:57.519 and that I was curious about. And you know, with music, 90 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:00.959 it became about tech and music the deeper. I got 91 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:06.199 into launching products that you know might have used artist 92 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:10.839 content or artist licensing, and you know, blended these concepts 93 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:14.040 of you know, new technology, like when apps were launching 94 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.720 the iPhone store and you know, different ways to digest music. 95 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:21.759 And you know, crypto, you know, was a thing where 96 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:24.480 I was like, oh, geez, bitcoin six hundred dollars, how 97 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:29.480 did I miss that? And I really like had this 98 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:33.040 this goal to go find the next bitcoin, and you 99 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:38.560 know when I ended up finding was XRP. First, someone 100 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:42.680 had built a wallet called peer cover and introduced me 101 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:44.560 to Ripple an XRP, and at that time it was 102 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:47.560 just a small company. Brad wasn't even there, Chris Larsen was, 103 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:51.439 and I think somehow I convinced him I would be 104 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:55.680 a good addition as an advisor and and you know, 105 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:58.079 later on, you know, I did some things with them, 106 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:00.560 So I feel like I finally did provide some value 107 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:03.399 because I always felt like I wasn't providing any But 108 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:06.240 at the same time, I ended up figuring out how 109 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:10.600 to do the theory and presale, So downloading the Jason 110 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:15.160 wallet and not really knowing a lot about technology and 111 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:18.639 especially you know, blockchain at that time. That was twenty fourteen. 112 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:21.800 I you know, you just it was different. You know, 113 00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:24.879 you could get into those Reddit communities, you could see, 114 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:29.360 you know, what coins were coming pre twenty seventeen Ico times, 115 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:32.439 and you know, I was just really again just curious 116 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:35.360 about what these things were, and I understood them inherently 117 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:38.319 because I was always kind of a fan of those 118 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:44.240 early cipherpunks, you know, and that culture. So that's that's 119 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:45.160 that happened. 120 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:48.759 Yeah, to your point of league, the cipherpunks era, maybe 121 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:51.240 the web what you would call web one point oh, 122 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:53.680 crypto one point oh, right, the early days, like the 123 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:57.240 dial up days. It was like I get a bit 124 00:06:57.279 --> 00:06:59.399 sentimental about Web one point oh because I was doing 125 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:01.600 stuff on you trying to take computers apart, and I 126 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:04.000 kind of missed that early days. I kind of like 127 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:04.680 what you're feeling. 128 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:07.680 It was, you know, look the old BBS's and you know, 129 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:11.199 you know, the phone freaking and all that. You know, 130 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:14.240 like people don't remember if you're old enough, you know, 131 00:07:14.279 --> 00:07:16.160 you remember, Oh you can get a free phone call 132 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:19.160 by messing with the landline, and you know that was 133 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:23.680 a big deal. And but you looked at like kind 134 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:25.879 of that hack or culture, and it was apparent to 135 00:07:25.879 --> 00:07:27.680 me that I could never be a coder. But I 136 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:29.439 fell in love kind of with the culture of those 137 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:33.920 early guys, you know, like David Chalmer, you know, just 138 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:36.560 all those I mean, it's funny people don't realize Elon 139 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:40.480 was one of those guys way back when, and you know, 140 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.399 Julian Assam all those guys you know, were part of 141 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:50.199 that culture and before that. And yeah, I just kind 142 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:52.160 of was really enamored with it. And I think it 143 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:56.399 just really fit my ethos of you know, disruption and 144 00:07:56.839 --> 00:08:01.000 you know, not following this ordinary line that most people follow. 145 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:03.720 And I think crypto offered a lot of that same 146 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:06.639 kind of solution in a strange way. 147 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.920 So, man, you less you're an og because I mean 148 00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:14.240 an advisor to Ripple got into the Ethereum pre sale, right, 149 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:18.160 and then tell us a bit more about your crypto 150 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:20.560 journey from there, Oh, how did that evolve? 151 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:23.959 Well, I think, you know, with the music business for 152 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:28.160 a long time, I realized it was complex and it 153 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:30.399 wasn't a business in a lot of ways, and you 154 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:32.600 were really fighting for scraps and you were fighting for 155 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:37.480 your artists, and the resource was just never there when 156 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:40.399 tech emerged. I remember I talked about this before, but 157 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:42.279 you know, south By Southwest was a really big deal 158 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:45.440 for musicians, and there was a moment in time where 159 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:49.240 south By Southwest became interactive and I always loved the 160 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:53.440 dichotomy of that because the musician portion was really pretty 161 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:56.759 bare bones, but when you got to the interactive portion. 162 00:08:57.000 --> 00:08:59.440 This is in the early days, it was blown out 163 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:02.840 like this spent so much money because tech, you know, 164 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:06.759 was a force, and it was kind of like in 165 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:09.159 that moment you realized, okay, I know where all this 166 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:13.840 is going. And getting out of music was was important 167 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:17.639 for me because you know, after a long period of time, 168 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:20.360 you know it's not just a business. It's something where 169 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:24.799 you're connected to people in a personal way. And if 170 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:27.559 you spend too much time kind of in that space, 171 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:31.039 you realize a couple of things that you know, if 172 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:33.039 you want to work harder than the artist, it's very 173 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:37.519 difficult to find success, and you know, sadly that was 174 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:39.519 the case with some of the artists that I worked with. 175 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:43.480 So I wanted to get out and I was fortunate 176 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:48.519 because I had a friend, David Seemer, who was in finance. 177 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:50.759 He was one of the early guys to build venture 178 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.039 up in Southeast Asia. He was an m and a banker, 179 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:58.000 and you know, when the two of us kind of 180 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:03.559 figured out that we wanted to do Wave, it just 181 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:05.440 made a lot of sense because we had such different 182 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:10.120 skill sets. He was, you know, conservative, he understood the 183 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:14.120 numbers really well, he understood the products, he understood finance, 184 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:16.759 and I just sometimes had a different way of thinking. 185 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:20.720 So when you put those two elements together, you can 186 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:25.559 really do some magical things. Ben, our third partner, you know, 187 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:30.080 came from traditional finance and it really kind of rounded 188 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:34.639 everything out. Now the market didn't. So there's a long 189 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:37.799 story of you know how we kind of survived during 190 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.639 those times because to your point, we were really really early, 191 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:46.440 staying incredibly regulatory compliance the whole time. 192 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:50.600 So tell us a bit about Wave Digital assets and 193 00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:53.159 the work you guys are doing. What's your mission? 194 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:56.159 Well, I mean when we started the company, you know, 195 00:10:56.200 --> 00:10:59.320 the mission was was pretty clear. You know Dave, you know, 196 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:02.600 his background was investment, so we were investing in lots 197 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:07.120 of different kinds of blockchain companies at that time. But 198 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:10.039 the thing we really kind of moved into was treasury 199 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.480 management for high net worths and protocols. We never did 200 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:17.159 anything that touched retail. We just didn't think it was 201 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:19.600 the right path to take, and for us, it wasn't. 202 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:24.200 We were immediately in oria with the state of California, 203 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:26.919 and then when we had enough, aum you know, adhere 204 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:31.759 to the sec and we also created products. You know, 205 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:37.000 we were very early doing you know, structuring of traditional 206 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:40.639 finance products that other people weren't doing. I mean, we've 207 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:43.120 always tended to do the thing that was a little 208 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:46.159 bit more complicated, a little harder, and I don't know 209 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.519 if that's just because we wanted to challenge, but you know, 210 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:51.000 we saw ETF's coming and we said, wow, everyone's going 211 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:53.559 to do those. You know, you're going to see the 212 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:57.000 Vanguard ones or the Fidelity ones or whatever. So why 213 00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:59.720 don't we do something more complicated and token is whiskey 214 00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:05.399 barrel or you know, create a bitcoin option product. And 215 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:08.440 you know that's how the business really really evolved over time. 216 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:11.960 You know, those were kind of that was the core business, 217 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:15.320 and then it changed over time because we changed with 218 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:19.759 the market. And I mean it's an important thing to 219 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:25.799 realize that in twenty twenty one where everything imploded because 220 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:29.279 we were conservative, we didn't believe the returns that a 221 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:31.960 lot of these promises, you know, that were being made 222 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:37.320 through FTX and others. Dave, to his credit, created really 223 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:41.159 great risk mitigation and we didn't get blown up by 224 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:41.720 any of it. 225 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:45.840 That's great. I mean, you guys survived those cycles because 226 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:47.960 it was pretty rough in twenty twenty one to say 227 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:51.840 the least. Obviously, going into twenty twenty two, what are 228 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:54.600 your thoughts on how things have changed? I mean, obviously 229 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:58.759 the industry has gone through an incredible maturation. Wall Streets here, 230 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:02.320 Tradswise here right, all the names, black Rock, Fidelity. Just 231 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:04.399 this week, Bank of America's CEOs as we want to 232 00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:07.519 launch a stable coin cityel Security say they want to 233 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:11.639 get involved and provide market making capabilities and so forth. 234 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:13.519 What are your thoughts on how things have changed? 235 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:15.360 Well, I mean, I think it's the thing we've always 236 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:17.399 been waiting for, because you know, when we set up 237 00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:20.120 the company, it was always meant to be something that 238 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:26.519 touched traditional finance. You know, this administration in particular, having 239 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:29.480 been in digital currencies as long as I have, it's 240 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:32.440 really pretty amazing to see in a matter of months 241 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:39.519 embracing you know, digital currencies changed everything. I mean you 242 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:41.559 may not think that today because of where the market is, 243 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:43.399 but you know, we've seen a lot of fluctuation in 244 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:48.000 the market over a decade. But what has changed is, 245 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:51.759 you know, with the former regime and Gary Gensler kind 246 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:54.600 of cracking down so hard. I was always incredibly concerned 247 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:57.440 about innovation being driven out of the country, and that's 248 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:00.679 exactly what happened. I mean, even with us, we were 249 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:04.519 incredibly quiet about what we were working on and how 250 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:08.080 we were working on it because we just didn't want 251 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:13.399 to be a target. So you know, by being quiet, 252 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:17.440 it really benefited us. Now you see with this administration, 253 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:21.799 innovation staying here. You know a lot of opportunity opening up, 254 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:24.120 and that's really what you want. You know, you come 255 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:28.240 from tech. You know, if you embrace you know, a 256 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.639 technology in the Silicon Valley or elsewhere, then a lot 257 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.240 of people will dive into it. And I mean, look, 258 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:36.919 what's happened with AI. I mean, it's incredible technology, but 259 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:41.879 now it's a staple, and digital currencies should be the 260 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:47.039 same thing, you know, just based on all of the 261 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:49.919 different verticals you can have with them. 262 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:53.679 Yeah, for sure. And then you mentioned you guys were 263 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:58.360 more institutional and focus versus retail. So what type of 264 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:01.240 institutions were you working with, like family offices, hedge funds, 265 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:01.840 things like that. 266 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:04.679 I could say we were more focused there, but I 267 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:09.919 didn't say it was successful, you know, sadly. You know 268 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.279 where we had a lot of success was managing protocol 269 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:17.200 treasuries and it's because we did take a regulatory approach. 270 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:20.120 You know, they didn't want as an issuer in many cases, 271 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:23.519 they didn't want to manage their own treasuries, so we 272 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:25.759 could do that. We you know, DeFi as a big 273 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:29.200 focus of Dave's so we could generate returns in a 274 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:32.879 way others couldn't. And it was better than sitting, you know, 275 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:35.919 on these treasuries and not doing anything. So you know, 276 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:38.720 today we manage a lot of those treasuries from the 277 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:43.320 different kind of Layer one protocols. For me, it was 278 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:47.440 again a next step in understanding of what I'd want 279 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:51.759 to do with government and you know, before government bankruptcies, 280 00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:54.679 which is a whole other, big, chunky part of the story. 281 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:00.799 But what happened in twenty one that really opened my 282 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:04.440 eyes is, you know, we wanted to go bid on 283 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:08.440 this company called Voyager that had went bankrupt. Yeah, and 284 00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:12.159 you know, we lost to FTX, and I thought, jeez, 285 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:17.559 how that happened? And that FTX imploded and we bid 286 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:21.799 again and we lost to Binance and this was Finance USA, 287 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:24.559 and I'm just like Jesus, you know, we saw the 288 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:27.519 writing on the wall, so you know, it imploded again, 289 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:32.919 and I just really thought to myself, it's interesting that 290 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:37.519 the states are you know, doing okay, but it's the 291 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.399 receivers and the lawyers and everyone else that was, you know, 292 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:42.879 extracting a lot of value because the more you did 293 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:46.080 the process, you know, the more everyone kind of got paid. 294 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:53.000 So I got really frustrated after that. And with a Voyager, 295 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:56.279 we went back a third time and we wanted to 296 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.600 buy the bankrupt assets only, meaning the alt coins, and 297 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:02.080 that's what we did. So we bought them outright at 298 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:04.400 a discount. And you know, we had already been pretty 299 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:08.319 good at understanding alts and liquidating and learning, you know, 300 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:11.000 a lot of the nuanced detail because there's so many alts, 301 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:16.000 So it really, you know, became our one of our 302 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:19.720 superpowers for a minute to do these bankruptcies, and we 303 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:22.279 did them all. We did everything from FTX to prime trust. 304 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:25.400 So bringing in back full circle while the market imploded, 305 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:27.559 you know, we found a way to kind of go 306 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:30.519 the other way. That's really where a lot of my 307 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:35.960 government thinking came from. All the bankruptcies weren't government. There 308 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.440 were a lot of aspects to the court system and 309 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:41.319 how you dealt with it, and how you dealt with 310 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:44.799 alternative currencies that could be applied to you know, the 311 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:50.480 direction we were headed with government. 312 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:55.839 So how are you guys custoding the assets that you hold? 313 00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:57.920 Are using a third party custodian? Do you have your 314 00:17:57.920 --> 00:17:59.079 own customer services? 315 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:01.319 So as I read sent Investment Advisor, we have to 316 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:05.000 use qualified custodian, although because you know we have some 317 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:08.160 venture exceptions, we could self custody, but that's not our business. 318 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:12.119 There are plenty of qualified custodians who've built up good 319 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:15.680 secure systems that we use. When we did the RFI 320 00:18:16.039 --> 00:18:19.839 and the RFP to win the business of the US 321 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:25.759 Marshals Service, we had we actually partnered with several companies 322 00:18:25.799 --> 00:18:28.680 and one of them was a qualified custodian uh TO, 323 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:32.880 and that was a big kind of part of the 324 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:35.359 approach we took with the Marshals. There's so many so 325 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:40.079 to be clear, it's complicated. Coinbase one what they call 326 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:44.759 Class one, which is under protests now, but those are 327 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:47.079 for kind of bitcoin and the big coins. And then 328 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:49.799 there was Class two through four, which were all the 329 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:53.799 alternative currencies. So what we were competing for was not 330 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:56.599 what Coinbase was competing for. We were competing for the 331 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:01.079 alternative currencies in Class two to four. The other difference 332 00:19:01.160 --> 00:19:04.119 is Class one had to be a large business or 333 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:07.359 Class two to four could be a small business. And 334 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:09.240 if you go back and look at the dysfunction of 335 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:14.119 the Marshal since twenty nineteen, you'll see that there were 336 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:17.759 companies like Anchorage that won it and then lost it 337 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:20.759 because of a small business exclusion because it turned into 338 00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:24.519 a large business. It's just such an archaic, ridiculous process, 339 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:28.680 you know, when we get started going down that rabbit hole. 340 00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:31.400 Yeah, that's it's wild. So you guys worked with the 341 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:35.839 US Marshals. Have you been advising the different ways? 342 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.720 No, so here's you know, kind of what happened. So 343 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:43.640 I decided I wanted to work on government, and government 344 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:46.359 for me, you know, was more than just the US. 345 00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:49.359 It was you know, there's an international component to it. 346 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:52.039 Then there was the federal component, and then there was 347 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:53.960 a state level, and then there was kind of a 348 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.519 local level. And so we did we did a handful 349 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:00.640 of things. I've spent a lot of time meeting with, 350 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:03.880 you know, some attorney generals at the state level, and 351 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:06.559 because of that, we were able to get some contracts 352 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:12.880 to educate different states. So that was like cryptocurriculum that 353 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:15.640 we could build out because there was really not a 354 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:20.960 baseline understanding. And you know, if I care about this industry, 355 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:22.720 the first thing I want to do is make sure 356 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.279 everyone has a good understanding of what this industry is about, 357 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:29.000 what these assets are about, because they're complex. So we 358 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:32.599 built an education curriculum and literally give it away, like 359 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:36.039 I have no desire to earn money off of that. 360 00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:40.640 And we were fortunate, we know, did educate some government 361 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:44.240 agencies as well. So I was already into government for 362 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:47.279 about two and a half years before all of this 363 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:52.079 happened with the new administration, you know, and The second 364 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:58.559 part is we did some software licensing and kind of 365 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:02.640 redeveloping to help with the accounting of digital currencies. So 366 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:05.519 that was the second thing that we did. And then really, 367 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:08.119 you know, the ultimate goal from a you know, I'm 368 00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:11.640 not some charity. You know, I do want to make money, 369 00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:14.960 but that's where you know, as a registered investment advisor, 370 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:18.759 we have the opportunity to do so. You know, so 371 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.599 as we get into the reserve conversation, you know, I 372 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:25.079 can explain that a little bit more. But you know, 373 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:28.440 where the US Marshall is concerned. They've been putting out 374 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:33.559 this RFP to have someone handle cryptocurrency since twenty nineteen. 375 00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:39.240 The way it started was who's going to custody it? 376 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.720 Who's going to track and trace it? And they never 377 00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:46.640 really thought about the management of these assets. And you know, 378 00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:49.920 if you have to follow a regulatory process to manage 379 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:52.240 these assets, there's a good argument that you should probably 380 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:54.839 be licensed to do so and have an idea of 381 00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:58.119 what these assets are. And you know, they really hadn't 382 00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:01.079 thought about it that way. No one has. I recently 383 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:05.000 spoke at the United Nations in front of Europe poll 384 00:22:05.799 --> 00:22:08.759 in Austria and it was the same thing. It was. 385 00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:11.720 There were a lot of law enforcement folks there. There 386 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:13.839 were a lot of people that understood how to track 387 00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:17.119 it or hold it, I mean track and trace and 388 00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:21.519 you know, custody have been around since twenty thirteen, but 389 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:23.839 there was no one to manage it. And think about 390 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:26.960 it from a financial perspective of you know, if you 391 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:30.720 have these assets, can they generate returns for the federal government, 392 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:35.240 for instance? And those are the things that the government 393 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:38.160 does with traditional finance companies every day, So why shouldn't 394 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:39.480 they do it with digital currency? 395 00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:44.359 Absolutely? And you know, with that in mind, Just this 396 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:46.640 past week there was a report from coined as that 397 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:49.559 the US Marshall Service they don't know how much of 398 00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:52.400 biitcoin to actually hold, and they were saying this could 399 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:55.000 be a roadblock in the United States getting a bitcoin 400 00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:58.359 strategic reserving place because it would be two part holding 401 00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:02.279