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<v Speaker 1>Welcome. Today, we're diving into a very common topic here

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<v Speaker 1>on the nonprofits Christian hypocrisy. Specifically, today we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about the fall of Jerry Folwell Junior, followed by

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<v Speaker 1>his triumphant return to Liberty University on homecoming week. It's

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<v Speaker 1>one of those stories that make you question the institutions

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<v Speaker 1>and enforce extreme moral codes, which often they fail to

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<v Speaker 1>follow themselves. Fallwell scandal isn't just about one man. It's

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<v Speaker 1>about the hypocrisy that festers in places like Liberty University,

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<v Speaker 1>where secrecy, repression, and power collide. We'll also look at

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<v Speaker 1>how financial interests influenced by the university's responses. They tried

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<v Speaker 1>to preserve their reputation and avoid alienating Fallwell's loyal following

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<v Speaker 1>while they tried to grapple with the fabricated moral crisis

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<v Speaker 1>that really is brought on by them setting absurd expectations.

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<v Speaker 1>This story is from Religious News by Karen Swallow prior

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<v Speaker 1>or October October fourth, twenty twenty four. Now, Karen is

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<v Speaker 1>going to go to you first, and I was wondering,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you think that this sets about the standards

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<v Speaker 1>of places like Liberty University.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's a really interesting question given that in this

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<v Speaker 2>article it's noted that Fallwell Junior had mentioned that he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't think he should be held to a higher standard

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<v Speaker 2>than many of the other individuals in leadership who had

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<v Speaker 2>been caught being involved in some sort of sex scandal

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<v Speaker 2>or other misconduct and had then been quote unquote forgiven

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<v Speaker 2>or allowed back in. And I find that to be

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<v Speaker 2>particularly interesting given the strict moral code of conduct that

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<v Speaker 2>Liberty University has for its students, which includes prohibitions, very

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<v Speaker 2>strict prohibitions against seemingly innocuous things that are regarded as

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<v Speaker 2>sexual misconduct, including handholding, being gay, using pronouns that aren't

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<v Speaker 2>consistent with the sex assigned at birth. These are strictly

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<v Speaker 2>prohibited activities for students at this university that Fallwell has

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<v Speaker 2>self presided over and presumably enforced. And yet he doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>want to be held to a higher standard, by which

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<v Speaker 2>he means not being held accountable for actual sexual misconduct

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<v Speaker 2>involving abuse of his power and that of his and

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<v Speaker 2>his wife's position at the university. So what I'm really

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<v Speaker 2>hearing is that it's not that he was being held

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<v Speaker 2>to a higher standard, it's that he was being held

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<v Speaker 2>to no standard at all apparently.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that we find that far too often in

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<v Speaker 1>organizations like this, that they create, first, as you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 1>an unrealistic expectation they set for everyone involved and act

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<v Speaker 1>surprised when people don't live up to it. But in

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<v Speaker 1>cases like this, oftentimes we see that the people who

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<v Speaker 1>are supposedly upholding this standard to others and enforcing it

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<v Speaker 1>with punitive damages to other people don't live up to

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<v Speaker 1>them themselves. So I don't think that that's something out

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<v Speaker 1>of the ordinary, and unfortunately seems to be something that

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<v Speaker 1>seems to be quite common. So AJ was about you,

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<v Speaker 1>we see this restoration of powerful abusers. Why do you

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<v Speaker 1>think congregations are more inclined to identify with the abuser

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<v Speaker 1>rather than the victim. What what cultural or theological factors

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<v Speaker 1>do you think go into this.

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<v Speaker 3>I think in this case, it just has a lot

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<v Speaker 3>to do with the doctrines that they're taught in church.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, it's all about Jesus forgiving you, and so

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<v Speaker 3>you are meant to forgive everybody just like because Jesus

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<v Speaker 3>says to forgive everyone, and that is exactly what has

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<v Speaker 3>seemed to be happening in situations like with fowl. They

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<v Speaker 3>put aside the victims, and they put them as not

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<v Speaker 3>even the victims themselves. They turn into the perpetrators, and

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<v Speaker 3>the victims are harassed, and then the entire institutions expect

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<v Speaker 3>their abusers to be forgiven.

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<v Speaker 1>I agree. I think that far too often what we

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<v Speaker 1>see is is that we see this prodigal sign comes

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<v Speaker 1>back at end of the fold. Let's congratulate and welcome

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<v Speaker 1>him back, and let's pretend that whatever the ramfications, those

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<v Speaker 1>don't go away. Just because you have the person come back,

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't fix the problem they created. And really, in

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<v Speaker 1>a situation like this, it seems like that these two

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<v Speaker 1>people were just, by their own admission, it seemed like

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<v Speaker 1>more of an act. Did you get that kind of

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<v Speaker 1>feel care of that this was just an act on

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<v Speaker 1>their part?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Absolutely. And this, of course all came about, this

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<v Speaker 2>reinstatement after the settling of their lawsuit, which had to

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<v Speaker 2>do with the university's ability to use the Fallwell name,

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<v Speaker 2>that of Fallwell Senior. I don't think they were trying

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<v Speaker 2>to use Junior's name and likeness quite as much, but

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<v Speaker 2>these legal consequences and followed as soon as those were

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<v Speaker 2>handled and taken care of. All of a sudden, everything

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<v Speaker 2>was fine, and now he's brought back, and it wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>really that we're worried about his sexual misconduct or his

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<v Speaker 2>abuse of his power. And you know, that admission on

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<v Speaker 2>his part basically that it was too much to expect

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<v Speaker 2>that he should, you know, not behave in inappropriate ways

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<v Speaker 2>sexually with students and others at the university is almost

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<v Speaker 2>the same thing as admitting that this student honor code

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<v Speaker 2>and all of these rules are impossibly strict, and their

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<v Speaker 2>prohibitions against you know, almost any kind of sexual conduct,

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<v Speaker 2>even against consenting adults, or even with consenting adults, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's an unrealistic standard. The one that they're enforcing against

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<v Speaker 2>the students is an unrealistic standard. And yet the leadership

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<v Speaker 2>of the university is allowed to go around and engage

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<v Speaker 2>in any kind of behavior, apparently, and then as soon

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<v Speaker 2>as all of the financial and legal issues in the

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<v Speaker 2>background are buttoned up, all of a sudden, well, we

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<v Speaker 2>don't mind, we have to forgive him. We couldn't possibly

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<v Speaker 2>expect someone to abide by any of our rules, apparently.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and apparently it wasn't just for Firewell himself. It

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<v Speaker 3>seemed like some of the documents that the lawsuit showed

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<v Speaker 3>that one of the arguments that they used in the

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<v Speaker 3>defense for him to come back was that the fact

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<v Speaker 3>that other high ranking university officials, including a former president

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<v Speaker 3>and a former dean, had been welcome back on campus

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<v Speaker 3>after they had some type of you know, misconduct like

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<v Speaker 3>having an affair or other sexual scandals, and they argued

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<v Speaker 3>that firewell should not behold, as you said, to a

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<v Speaker 3>higher moral standard than everybody else. So it was like, well,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, they did it, so it's fine, right, like

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<v Speaker 3>I should be able to come back to and you

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<v Speaker 3>know that's what happened. The lasses were dropped and then

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<v Speaker 3>they settled. Then he not only returned to the campus,

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<v Speaker 3>but he did it during the homecoming week, which was

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<v Speaker 3>like gave him like a hero's welcome back and full

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<v Speaker 3>of praise, and you know, it's just it. It came

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<v Speaker 3>down to forgiveness and salvation for the abusers and then

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<v Speaker 3>hush money for the victims so they will just sit

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<v Speaker 3>down and shut up exactly, victims.

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<v Speaker 1>The victims are just an inconvenience to the story that

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<v Speaker 1>they're trying to present. Because look, as you mentioned Aja

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<v Speaker 1>coming back on homecoming, this isn't by accident. They're laying

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<v Speaker 1>out a redemption story and we're all forgiven and everything's good.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course it could have nothing to do with

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that the university was doing very poorly before

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<v Speaker 1>Folwell was involved and then all of a sudden he

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<v Speaker 1>made it a very profitable institution. I'm sure it had

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely nothing about that, and all about the forgiveness of

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<v Speaker 1>our near and dear Lord Jesus. Okay, maybe I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think any of that. But Carab, did you have something

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<v Speaker 1>to say You were talking before I interrupted.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, no, I mean I think I interrupted you.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, I don't want to be held to

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<v Speaker 2>a higher standard or anything on the interrupting and the

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<v Speaker 2>conversation turn taking. But I do think exactly as both

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<v Speaker 2>of you have pointed out, this is just again another

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<v Speaker 2>example where we're celebrating the abuser and the powerful leader

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<v Speaker 2>who has engaged in misconduct while essentially punishing or hushing

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<v Speaker 2>up anyone who had the temerity to point it out.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's always the other people involved in these things

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<v Speaker 2>that are then the victims that are blamed or accused

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<v Speaker 2>of instigating the wrongdoing. And you know, we never hear

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<v Speaker 2>from them again, or about them being reinstated or having

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<v Speaker 2>any sort of restitution. But here we are celebrating the

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<v Speaker 2>homecoming of mister Folwell, returning again to be reinstated in

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<v Speaker 2>a position to engage in this same behavior again, with

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<v Speaker 2>him having essentially admitted that he thinks the standard of

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<v Speaker 2>conduct that they were holding him to was impossible. So

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<v Speaker 2>what does that tell you about his future behavior?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, one thing I did find interesting is that

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<v Speaker 1>both he and his wife essentially came out with you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it was an all in act. You know, he said,

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<v Speaker 1>now I had their last name, but you know, people

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<v Speaker 1>expect me to be religious, but I'm really not that

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<v Speaker 1>kind of guy. And that's fine. You know, he probably

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<v Speaker 1>have a happier and healthier life if he didn't live

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<v Speaker 1>under an unrealistic expectation like that. But I think that

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<v Speaker 1>that's something that religion tends to do, not just to

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<v Speaker 1>its leadership, but even worse, because they get the buy

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<v Speaker 1>and get the pass if they do something wrong. But

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<v Speaker 1>it's all the other people that go and live into

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<v Speaker 1>at Liberty University and spend their lives thinking this is

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<v Speaker 1>what I have to be, and then go out and

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<v Speaker 1>leave the university trying to be that person and really

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<v Speaker 1>setting themselves up for failure. Now, one thing I did

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<v Speaker 1>notice is that I did read where one of the

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<v Speaker 1>people stated it costs. Rachel Donald Hollanders said, it cost

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<v Speaker 1>you something to side with the vulnerable. Why is it

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<v Speaker 1>that siding with the victims of abuse and religion communities

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<v Speaker 1>often come to such a high social or personal cost?

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<v Speaker 1>And how can we encourage more people to take that stand?

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<v Speaker 1>AJ wanted to throw that question to you, what do

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<v Speaker 1>you think?

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<v Speaker 3>I truly don't understand this because you can see the

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<v Speaker 3>harm that is being done to another human being, and

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<v Speaker 3>you will think that naturally you will want to protect

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<v Speaker 3>that person that is that is being victimized, right, But

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<v Speaker 3>it seems that in all of these religious settings is

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<v Speaker 3>the complete opposite. Like we said earlier, they're just victimizing

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<v Speaker 3>the abusers. And so I think that making sure that

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<v Speaker 3>we speak up and that we will let these people's

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<v Speaker 3>uh voice what's happened to them, advocating bringing awareness will

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<v Speaker 3>probably and hopefully remove the stigma around the victims of abuse.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know, bringing the abusers to light without making

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<v Speaker 3>them the victim, is the most important step. I don't

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<v Speaker 3>I don't really know exactly what we could do to

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<v Speaker 3>make that happen. But I know that that is definitely

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<v Speaker 3>the key point, because you know, when victims can see

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<v Speaker 3>that they're not being realified or humiliated, then they'll feel

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<v Speaker 3>more comfortable sharing their stories knowing that they will get

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<v Speaker 3>justice and not just be put aside and paid to

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<v Speaker 3>shut up.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, I think that that is one very important thing,

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<v Speaker 1>is actually allowing people, making people realize that it's a

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<v Speaker 1>safe environment for them to do that. I think one

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<v Speaker 1>of the problems though, is that institutionally, when you come

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<v Speaker 1>to issues like churches and things like this, I think

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<v Speaker 1>there's a vested interest in churches and church related organizations

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<v Speaker 1>oftentimes to do quite the opposite, and not even necessarily

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<v Speaker 1>so they can be an overt predator like these two

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<v Speaker 1>people have been, but to be just predatorial in nature

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<v Speaker 1>towards taking advantage of other people in times of needs.

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<v Speaker 1>In situations like that, it kind of it's part. It's

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<v Speaker 1>almost like it's part of the program for these people

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<v Speaker 1>to be in positions of authority, and almost by definition

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<v Speaker 1>it means that people are going to take advantage of

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<v Speaker 1>that authority.

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<v Speaker 2>What was your take care of Yes, I agree with

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<v Speaker 2>that it's it's really tough to say what could be

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<v Speaker 2>done to, you know, encourage more people to side with

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<v Speaker 2>the victims in this because, as you both pointed out,

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<v Speaker 2>the social costs are so high because the system almost

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<v Speaker 2>has that built into it. Because as soon as you

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<v Speaker 2>start siding with the victims and saying like, oh, here

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<v Speaker 2>we see this person has been harassed or coerced or

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<v Speaker 2>taken advantage of, we're now suggesting and you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't mean to paint with two broader brush here, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's often young women and girls that are victims in

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<v Speaker 2>these instances, or children. We're now taking away this excuse

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<v Speaker 2>that's so often used to vilify the victims, which is

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<v Speaker 2>that they somehow encouraged this, or they invited this through

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<v Speaker 2>their own sin or misconduct or lesciviousness, or whatever the

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<v Speaker 2>case may be. And as soon as we start siding

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<v Speaker 2>with them and saying, no, this person was actually victimized,

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<v Speaker 2>they were coerced, they were intimidated, they were forced, or

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<v Speaker 2>whatever the case may be, all of a sudden, now

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<v Speaker 2>we're placing more accountability on the people in positions of power,

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<v Speaker 2>and nobody in a position of power wants to allow

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<v Speaker 2>themselves to be placed at a greater risk or apparently

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<v Speaker 2>held to a higher standard, or any standard at all.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think we're back to that situation again, where

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<v Speaker 2>as long as the same people are in these positions

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<v Speaker 2>of power, there's going to continue to be enormous pressure

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<v Speaker 2>for everyone else in the congregation or the flock, or

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<v Speaker 2>whatever the case may be, to not side with them.

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<v Speaker 3>It's interesting that you mentioned that victims are usually women

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<v Speaker 3>and young girls, which is, I absolutely agree with that,

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<v Speaker 3>But it seemed like the worlds had like no limit

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<v Speaker 3>on who they were praying on. So if you need

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<v Speaker 3>something to be disgusted by this Halloween, let me tell

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<v Speaker 3>you about his wife. Okay, so this story goes beyond

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<v Speaker 3>just the pastor coming back, you know, after committing since

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<v Speaker 3>because you know, obviously he was banned from the university

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<v Speaker 3>because he was posting inappropriate, sexually charged comments, photos and

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<v Speaker 3>videos of young female students, which is, you know what

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<v Speaker 3>you pointed out about a woman being the main target.

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<v Speaker 3>But he wasn't the only one that was banned from

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<v Speaker 3>the university. His wife, Becky was too because she was

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<v Speaker 3>part of a separate sex scandal, and one of the

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<v Speaker 3>most notable things about it was that she was having

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<v Speaker 3>a sexual relationship with a young pool boy for several years.

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<v Speaker 3>But this wasn't a secret to her husband. It's just

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<v Speaker 3>like God, it seems like Farewell Junior like to watch

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<v Speaker 3>because he will apparently the story goes, is that he

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<v Speaker 3>will sit on the corner of the room and quietly

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<v Speaker 3>watch his wife have sex with the poor boy. So

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<v Speaker 3>I do not want to shame people for, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>their sexual taste of what they do as consent to adults,

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<v Speaker 3>because everybody's body autonomy that we always talk about. But

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<v Speaker 3>it seemed like in this case, it was just a

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<v Speaker 3>very naive young man and they were totally completely predatory

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<v Speaker 3>towards him, and they lured him by promising business partnerships

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<v Speaker 3>and real estate dealings and money, and both Farwell Junior

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<v Speaker 3>and his wife used their position of power and authority

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<v Speaker 3>to abuse this young man.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, you know, I thought somethings that was very important

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<v Speaker 1>and I completely agree is that. You know, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>care if missus Folwell and the poor boy had a relationship.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't care what Fallwell Junior's relationship in that situation was. Either.

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<v Speaker 1>It is completely not a concern to me until until

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<v Speaker 1>you start telling other people what they should do, what

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<v Speaker 1>they can and cannot do, kicking people out of school

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<v Speaker 1>for doing far less. You know, when you start thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about what they did and compare it to what they

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<v Speaker 1>have cost people. I mean, and in the long run,

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<v Speaker 1>they might be better off without a career that you

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<v Speaker 1>get from Liberty University. But still that's not my choice

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<v Speaker 1>to make. But someone made that choice for them, who

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't me, who supposedly was their mentor and their guide,

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<v Speaker 1>and someone who was in their leadership to make them

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<v Speaker 1>that supposed better person that you know, the the illusion

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<v Speaker 1>the facade is supposed to create. I mean, we know

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<v Speaker 1>none of its reality. You know, we've talked about people,

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<v Speaker 1>other people in the organization, and then their their misdeeds.

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<v Speaker 1>They're the misdeeds of the Fallwells. There's misdeeds that go

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<v Speaker 1>around for everybody. Okay, great, but once again that goes

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<v Speaker 1>back to if you set an unrealistic expectation in the

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<v Speaker 1>first place. This is what happens when you do that,

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<v Speaker 1>when you don't talk about things and you're not open

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<v Speaker 1>about people being well, real people, and that's a whole

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<v Speaker 1>lot of things. It's not something you could put inside

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<v Speaker 1>of a box and caroen wanted to know, Is there

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<v Speaker 1>anything anything else that's struck you about this story you

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to discuss?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, really, I think just one of the main

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<v Speaker 2>things that I found fascinating about this story was the

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<v Speaker 2>way that the sort of the breadth and the range

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<v Speaker 2>of the misconduct that took place and that was ultimately forgiven.

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<v Speaker 2>It ranged from not only things that we would all

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<v Speaker 2>identify as predatory or coercive or taking advantage of naive

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<v Speaker 2>people are those who you have an undue amount of

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<v Speaker 2>influence over, but also it included things that perhaps the

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<v Speaker 2>folks at Liberty University regard as immoral, but secular people

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<v Speaker 2>might not, such as the you know, various kinds of

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<v Speaker 2>sexual relationships that Fallwell and Becky were having, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>different kinds of proclivity and tastes. And yet no matter

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<v Speaker 2>what the behavior was, you know, minor to actually predatory,

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<v Speaker 2>I never saw any distinction really made between any of

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<v Speaker 2>those in any of the discussion of these incidents coming

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<v Speaker 2>from the university, And that lack of distinction between things

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<v Speaker 2>that are actively predatory and harming victims and abusing people

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<v Speaker 2>versus things that someone has read the Bible and decided

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<v Speaker 2>they have a distaste for no distinction made whatsoever, which really,

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<v Speaker 2>to me just kind of speaks to this complete and

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<v Speaker 2>utter lack of a sense of accountability to other human

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<v Speaker 2>beings that's coming out of this attitude towards the behavior

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<v Speaker 2>that's being tolerated and allowed in leadership. And I just

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<v Speaker 2>found that rather.

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<v Speaker 3>Galling, indeed a j anything you want to add, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I think that here we have to focus on what

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<v Speaker 3>the institution are doing at large, right they need to

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<v Speaker 3>stop this whole Jesus forgives you, and so do we mentality.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not a guys forgiveness because I think that abusers

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<v Speaker 3>are often in need of help as well. To hear

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<v Speaker 3>what about trauma they you know, may come with that

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<v Speaker 3>led them to that behavior. And so the issue is

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<v Speaker 3>that churches and institutions just cleanse the sins with religion

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<v Speaker 3>and do absolutely nothing to solve the root cause of

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<v Speaker 3>the problem. And you know, this guy needed therapy, not Jesus.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I have to say that I completely agree

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<v Speaker 1>with that. And now that I think is one of

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<v Speaker 1>the easy things that we can all clearly recognize in

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<v Speaker 1>this situation is that as we've all hit on, these

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<v Speaker 1>people need help. I don't think they're going to find

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<v Speaker 1>it at an altar. I don't think they're going to

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<v Speaker 1>find it praying to, you know, to Jesus or any

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<v Speaker 1>other god. But I think that this mentality and this

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<v Speaker 1>live and live all is forgiven mentality just allows this

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<v Speaker 1>cycle to continue rather than actually address it.