WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:10.119 The Low and welcome to Mythic Mind, where we pursue 2 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:13.320 wisdom in the past between primary secondary worlds. I'm your host, 3 00:00:13.359 --> 00:00:15.800 Andrew Snyder, and I'm always grateful. 4 00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:20.960 For your company. 5 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:30.679 Today, I'll bring you something a little bit different. As 6 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:33.359 I mentioned last time, I'm going to post some interviews 7 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:35.479 and some group chats here for a bit until I 8 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:38.960 get going with the next main season. Now, I recently 9 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:42.119 finished up my first public facing study on the fiction 10 00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:44.759 and philosophy of C. S. Lewis, and a few of 11 00:00:44.759 --> 00:00:47.399 the participants from that course have come back together so 12 00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:50.359 that we could discuss C. S. Lewis's Ransom series. Now, 13 00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:52.719 in this conversation, we cover all three books out of 14 00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:55.679 the Silent Planet, Perilandra and I Hideous Strength. And if 15 00:00:55.719 --> 00:00:58.000 you've never read these books before, well you definitely need 16 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:02.320 to because they are They're incredibly profound, incredibly timely, and 17 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:05.439 it's largely because they're timeless, but they also do specifically 18 00:01:05.879 --> 00:01:08.400 particularly relate to a lot of things happening in our 19 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:11.040 current age, and of course that are very well written, 20 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:13.519 as you would expect given the author. Know that there 21 00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:15.920 are going to be some spoilers in this episode, and 22 00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:18.760 so be warned about that if that bothers you. But honestly, 23 00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:21.599 I'm really not too concerned about spoilers byself, not like 24 00:01:21.640 --> 00:01:24.359 I used to be. Cus Lewis explains in I think 25 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:27.079 it's on stories that the best stories are not the 26 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:30.560 ones carried by anticipation of the plot, but by familiarity. 27 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.159 The more familiarity you have with good stories, with a 28 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:38.480 good story, the more profundity is able to present itself clearly, 29 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:41.040 the further up and the further in you are able 30 00:01:41.079 --> 00:01:43.920 to go. And so make of that what you will. Really, 31 00:01:43.959 --> 00:01:47.519 the spoilers probably aren't that terrible anyways, as we discuss 32 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:49.879 a lot of material in a relatively little amount of time, 33 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:51.879 which means that there's a lot that we don't discuss here. 34 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:54.959 But in any case, I really enjoy this conversation, and 35 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:57.840 I hope that you do as well. All Right, So 36 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:13.080 here we go, all right, So welcome to the reunion 37 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:16.759 of the Floxy and Fiction of C. S. Lewis. So 38 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:19.400 we have here a few of the participants from that course. 39 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:21.240 You know who I am, But let's just go ahead 40 00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:23.439 and start off by going around the room. Here. Just 41 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:26.240 give us your name and your favorite C. S. Lewis book, 42 00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:31.879 and that way everybody can associate your name with your boys. Chase, 43 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:33.280 why don't you go in and kick us off? 44 00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:37.719 That's my name is Chase. My favorite C. S. Lewis 45 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:40.280 book is typically the last one that I've read, but 46 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:46.639 I think through this class Ah the Great Divorce, and 47 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:51.599 in terms of Narnia, like Silver Chair, we're definitely up 48 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:55.159 there as some of the top other than the Ransom trilogy. 49 00:02:55.919 --> 00:03:00.120 Coo cool, good choices, so basically everything and not a 50 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:01.599 bad answer when it comes to Lewis. 51 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:06.560 Catherine, Hey there, I'm Katherine. I think my favorite is 52 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:10.439 still Till We Have Faces. That's got to be tops. 53 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:13.479 Even in conjunction with everything that we've read. It's been 54 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:17.199 cool to see his growth as an author. Until We 55 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:19.800 Have Faces seems like it's one of the more sophisticated ones. 56 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:22.560 It's cool to imagine where he would have gone next after. 57 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:24.919 That one good, fantastic, and of course that was Lewis's 58 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:26.680 choice as well, at least when it comes to his novels, 59 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:31.520 and I'm very sympathetic to that. Olivia, I'm Olivia. 60 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:34.199 I'm joined here by my firit Sydney, who was very 61 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:40.319 opinionated and unfortunately, will be sharing his opinions. My favorite 62 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:42.599 book is Till We Have Faces. That was my intro 63 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:45.000 to Lewis when I was a teenager, and it's still 64 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:46.159 my favorite book of all time. 65 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:50.000 Good fantastic, and spending the bird here. Talking about Lewis 66 00:03:50.039 --> 00:03:52.960 makes you think of that part of Pera Landro where 67 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:55.120 he says word exactly where we should be between our 68 00:03:55.159 --> 00:04:00.599 elder brothers, the angels and the animals are playfellows andingesters. 69 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:03.919 So it's a it's a good good Paralyandrian nod there. 70 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:09.520 Jackie, Hi, I'm Jackie, And my favorite of C. S. 71 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:14.000 Lewis's fiction is probably That Hideous Strength or The Horse 72 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:14.759 and His Boy. 73 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:16.240 Good fantastic. 74 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:22.199 David Hi, Yeah, I'm David Man. Yeah, it's it's really 75 00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:26.319 hard to pick. I'm kind of like Chase, but I'm 76 00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:29.439 going to say Parlandra. Just on reading it again for 77 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:33.639 this course, just the writing in there, just some really 78 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:37.920 good descriptive, expressive writing, and just the theology in there 79 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:40.639 really really gripped me this time. So I'll say that 80 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:41.160 for now. 81 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:43.920 Another good choice, not like you can really go wrong, 82 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:47.319 and I think that I also have to get mine too. 83 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:50.759 Till we Have Faces I think that just demonstrates his 84 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:55.160 most mature writing. We get a lot of the themes 85 00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:57.480 that we see in his earlier writing, as early as Ransom, 86 00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:01.480 but I think just brought to a deeper level, really 87 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:05.639 brought more into that realm of myth where it's kind 88 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:07.959 of more frustrating in that it's more difficult to walk 89 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:11.639 away with a precise knowledge of exactly what he's doing. 90 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:14.759 But you know he's doing something very profound, and I 91 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:18.079 appreciate that mystery and that struggle to get our minds 92 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:21.079 around it. But this is not an till we have 93 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:24.639 faces episode. Today. We are here to primarily talk about 94 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:27.040 the Ransom series and so out of the side on 95 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:30.839 Planet Parilandra and that hideous strength. And I mean, of 96 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:34.120 course some of your books might say the Space Trilogy 97 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:36.160 on it, but as we're going to come to find, 98 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:39.360 space is the wrong name. And so we're covering a 99 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:42.240 lot of ground right now. I don't know how many 100 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:45.800 hundreds of pages here, and so the purpose of this 101 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:48.079 is not really to do a page by page or 102 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:51.000 even chapter by chapter analysis. It's really just to talk 103 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:53.920 about things that have stood out to us. So if 104 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:56.439 you haven't read it, you have good reason to, although 105 00:05:56.560 --> 00:05:58.720 I mean warning there will be some spoilers here, but 106 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.959 I think that this is really a neglected book or 107 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:05.920 neglected series when it comes to Lewis, everybody knows him 108 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:09.199 for Narnia, and for a lot of people, that's basically 109 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:12.160 where it begins and where it ends. And it's not 110 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:14.879 a bad place to begin an end. But there's a 111 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:17.000 lot more to Lewis, a lot more you can go 112 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:20.000 further up and further in. And so we're gonna start 113 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:24.240 off by just providing brief plot summaries for refreshers for 114 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:27.680 those of you who maybe haven't read this recently, and 115 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:29.600 then we'll just talk about what we think is cool. 116 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:33.839 So for Out of the Silent Planet, it begins with 117 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:39.199 the philologist Ransom, who is walking down a road. We 118 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:42.439 get some homages to Dante and that he's initially not 119 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:45.279 even given a name, he's just called the Pedestrian. And 120 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:48.079 he's walking down the road and he finds his way 121 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:51.720 through the forest to this inn where he's given his 122 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:54.279 first quest to go check on this lady's son. And 123 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:57.079 so if she goes to find her son, and he 124 00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:01.560 ends up stumbling upon a couple scientists who are occupying 125 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:05.079 a house previously owned by a woman named Alice. This 126 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:08.160 is going to be Ransom's entry away into Wonderland, and 127 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:12.160 so he meets up with Weston and Divine, these progressive 128 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:16.000 take over the universe scientists types. They kidnap him and 129 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:19.399 bring him off to Mars, where he really gets into 130 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:21.160 the heart of the story. He goes through all these 131 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:25.560 different Marshall experiences until finally he's brought up before the 132 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:30.600 oyarsa of Mars, this angelic like figure, and then through 133 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:33.720 this conversation he really just gets transformed. He really comes 134 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:36.560 to embody the martial spirit. And then of course he's 135 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:39.120 sent back home to get ready for his next quest. 136 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:41.720 And as far as the significance of all of that, 137 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:43.920 we'll probably get into some of that in our conversation. 138 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:48.040 But like I said, we're just gonna go around the 139 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:50.199 room here. Just tell us some things that stood out 140 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:52.120 to you, maybe a quote that stood out to you, 141 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:55.120 maybe a scene or a theme. You can get as 142 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:57.519 specific or as broad as you want to. It can 143 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:00.480 be really profound, or it can just be Chris, that 144 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:02.879 was pretty cool moment. I'm okay you the way with that. 145 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:06.319 We'll go in reverse order now, David what do you 146 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:07.160 have for us? 147 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:10.360 Well, one of the things I really like about Out 148 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:12.959 of the Silent Planet is it it feels like Lewis 149 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:16.800 has kind of set up some races who are rightly 150 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:22.360 aligned with God to show how bent we are in 151 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:24.360 relation to God. In fact, you know, that's the term 152 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:27.879 that the books use to talk about the ones from Earth, 153 00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:31.439 is that we're bent. So all of the questions and 154 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:37.919 the fears that Ransom has when he is there on Malachandra, 155 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:43.759 they just kind of reveal what we don't understand and 156 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:47.720 the ways that we our selfish devotions, our desire to, 157 00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:51.759 you know, to have more because something was good, we 158 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:54.279 always want more of it instead of the right amount, 159 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:56.600 or we want it too early, or we want it 160 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:02.000 too long. And I thought there was really profound statements, 161 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:05.639 especially in his conversation with the Horosa and with the 162 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:09.399 Oarsa at the end, that just kind of make you 163 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:13.759 realize how we should be seeing our place in the 164 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:17.960 universe and the life that God has given us. So 165 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:21.879 it's pretty thoughtful. I think people tend to think Perilandra 166 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.039 is the more thoughtful book, but there's really some good 167 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:26.360 stuff to get out of Out of the Silent Planet. 168 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:26.759 As well. 169 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:31.360 Yeah, they're most definitely is. Yeah. I've mentioned this many 170 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:34.759 times throughout that this class referred to this George McDonald 171 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:38.600 quote when he says that the philosopher is someone who 172 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:40.679 lives in the thought of things, and the Christian is 173 00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:43.600 someone who lives in the thing themselves. And we very 174 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:47.000 much see that play out in Ransom's progression from the philologists. 175 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:49.279 He's a guy who works with words, he works with 176 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:51.080 the idea of things. The sort of word is, it's 177 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:56.159 an abstraction from concrete reality. But through his journeys to 178 00:09:56.440 --> 00:10:00.000 the heavens, not space, but the heavens, something that's occupy, 179 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.799 it's something as substantial. He comes to walk in the 180 00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:06.000 things themselves. And you know, this is somebody who is 181 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:10.279 a professing Christian from the beginning, and so it's not 182 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:13.080 necessarily a conversion experience, so to speak. But we very 183 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:15.639 much get this further up and further in idea that 184 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:18.840 he's being brought into a greater degree of reality. He's 185 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:20.519 coming to walk among the things that he used to 186 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:23.320 only talk about. And so, yeah, I think that's just 187 00:10:23.799 --> 00:10:27.000 a great journey of being brought into the context that 188 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:31.960 he already knows but doesn't yet know, Yeah, good points, Chase, 189 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:33.000 what do you have for us? 190 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:33.960 Yeah, so. 191 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:35.879 Definitely. 192 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:38.519 I think it does a remarkable job just like introducing 193 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:43.840 us to like minieval view of cosmology, and it breaks 194 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:47.559 this kind of free of the restraints to view space 195 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:53.679 like not as a vacuum, but it's like a vacuum 196 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:56.480 devoid of life, but actually something to like give us 197 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:02.600 wonder and if you basically the heavens. So that was 198 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:06.000 that's pretty cool. I really loved the scene with Ransom, 199 00:11:06.039 --> 00:11:10.039 just having that realization alone and just how it doesn't 200 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:16.279 even compare to what academics and scientists say. I think C. S. 201 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:18.879 Lewis really kind of like stood in the face of 202 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.360 like the modernity and like production of everything down to 203 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:28.080 like such materialism with this kind of quote from Douglas 204 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:31.600 Wilson about it. He said, for moderns, the universe is 205 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:35.039 a bunch of nothing. In contrast to this, for Lewis, 206 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:38.080 the cosmos was teeming with life, love, and color. It 207 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:40.919 was his goal to bring a fundamental reversal in the 208 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:44.360 minds of his readers from empty to fool, from black 209 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:47.600 to color, fool, from dead to alive. I thought that 210 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:50.679 really summarize a lot of the book there. 211 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:55.039 Yeah, were you pulling that from the preface to Deeper 212 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:56.440 Heaven any chance? 213 00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:00.799 No, it was from his lecture on it. Oh kind 214 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:01.440 of dog whist wolves. 215 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:04.480 Yeah, Okay, I'm sure it's same kind of material because 216 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:08.679 he wrote the preference to Christina Hale's Deeper Heaven. And yeah, 217 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:13.960 he talks about there how what we describe as space 218 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:17.879 or the outer darkness. I mean, that's biblically description of 219 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:20.879 hell as opposed to the heavens that we used to 220 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:24.440 see when we look out beyond the sphere of the earth. 221 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:27.679 And yeah, and that points to the quotation that I 222 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:29.320 wanted to bring. So I'll go and throw that in here, 223 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:31.440 and just gets to exactly what you're bringing up here. 224 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:33.279 This is kind of long, but I think that is 225 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:35.720 just so essential to getting at the heart of what's 226 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:38.519 going on here. And so at this point, Ransom had 227 00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:41.720 just been kidnapped and brought up to what we call space. 228 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:45.440 But he starts to have this enlightenment this and I 229 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:48.279 mean that word very intentionally, in enlightenment that the light 230 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:50.519 of the sun, the light of the heavens, is filling 231 00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:54.639 his soul and broadening him to partake of this heavenly context, 232 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:59.240 and so it says here but ransom. As time war 233 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:01.960 On became a caware of another more spiritual cause for 234 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:05.799 his progressive lightning and exaltation of heart. A nightmare long 235 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:08.240 engendered in the modern mind by the mythology that follows 236 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:10.960 in the wake of science, was falling off him. He 237 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:13.120 had read of space at the back of his thinking 238 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:15.759 for years, had lurked the dismal fancy of the black, 239 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:19.480 cold vacuity, the utter deadness which was supposed to separate 240 00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:21.960 the worlds. He had not known how much it affected 241 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:25.120 him until now now that the very name space seemed 242 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:27.919 to blasphemous libel. For this imperian ocean of radiance in 243 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:31.600 which they swam, he felt life pouring into him from 244 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:35.200 it every moment. How indeed should it be otherwise, Since 245 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:37.639 out of this ocean the worlds, in all their life, 246 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:41.000 had come. He had thought it barren. He saw now 247 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:43.600 that it was the womb of worlds, whose blazing and 248 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:47.080 innumerable offspring looked down nightly, even upon the Earth with 249 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:51.559 so many eyes, and here with how many more. No, 250 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:55.000 Space was the wrong name. Older thinkers had been wiser 251 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.879 when they named it simply the heavens, the heavens which 252 00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:01.759 declared the glory. The happy climbs out lie where day 253 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:04.559 never shuts his eye up in the broad fields of 254 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:08.320 the sky. He quoted Milton's words to himself lovingly at 255 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:12.320 this time and often, and I think that that right 256 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:15.480 there just encompasses so much of what this book is 257 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:19.759 doing and helping us to break free from the disenchantment 258 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.720 of modernity, or maybe she even say the bewitchment of modernity. 259 00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:26.799 Right this brings us into the underland with the witch 260 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:30.360 in the silver chair. That is the modernity, is the 261 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:35.399 decontextualization of human experience and the discarded image. Where Lewis 262 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:39.559 talks about medieval and Renaissance cosmology and just kind of 263 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:43.480 their view of life, he makes the point that a 264 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:45.919 modern man, and I'm sure that many of us have 265 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.120 probably had some experience like this, but a modern man 266 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:50.799 will go outside at night and look up at the 267 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:54.279 vastness of what we call space and feel a sense 268 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:57.799 of just anxiety or dread. We look up at space 269 00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:00.720 and we see a question mark. We said that if 270 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:03.679 that's very different than the medieval man who would go 271 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:05.720 out on a starry night and look up at the 272 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:08.639 heavens and not find a question mark, but find an answer, 273 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:11.799 find substance in which his mind can rest. He would 274 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.200 look up and see the perfect order of the heavens 275 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:17.200 as something to emulate, something that can bring order to 276 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:20.600 his own life, not something that brings just the emptiness 277 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:24.759 of space. And so this this medieval view of looking 278 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:27.360 at the cosmos, looking at our place in the cosmos, 279 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:31.399 and it's anything but dark. It's teeming with radiance and 280 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.320 with life and with order. There's a profound hope and 281 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.200 a profound beauty in the medieval view of looking at 282 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:42.600 the world that is simply lacking altogether through our modern eyes. 283 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.039 And so that's what I most appreciate about out of 284 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:48.120 the side of the planet that I mean, there are 285 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:50.759 all kinds of profound points that he's making, but this 286 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:53.720 isn't even really a point. It's more of just an 287 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:57.879 experience of a broadening context for your life. The smaller 288 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:01.080 you are and the more the higher that you're able 289 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:04.879 to go, well, the more hope you can have, the 290 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:08.120 more aspiration that you can have. That there's nothing freeing 291 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:09.919 about being told that there's no up or down, no 292 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:12.000 left to right, that we're simply a rock floating in 293 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:16.600 the vastness of space. And that's really the rebuke that's 294 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:20.840 given to especially Weston, but also Divine. I mean, Divine 295 00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:23.039 doesn't really care about anything other than money. But you know, 296 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:27.519 Weston has all these these hopes of progress, but he 297 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:31.080 has no direction to determine what progress even means, whereas 298 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:34.759 Rainsom is going to experience what real progress actually looks like. 299 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:37.519 And what it looks like is relating yourself to the eternal. 300 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:39.679 All right, I just mind a lot to go too 301 00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:42.720 long there, Olivia and your bird? What do you have? 302 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:46.639 There is so much in this book, Like David said, 303 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:48.919 it's more sophisticated than a lot of people give it 304 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:51.960 credit for. It is, on the surface like much more 305 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:57.000 of a traditional like adventure story, more of a traditional 306 00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:59.879 sci fi, which the series really isn't, but you get 307 00:16:59.879 --> 00:17:04.599 that bid more in this book. My favorite scene comes 308 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:07.519 near the end of the book where Ransom and then 309 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:12.480 Wesson Divine come and meet with Oyarisa, and there's so 310 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:16.799 much just in that scene. You know. I love the 311 00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:22.160 conversation between Ransom and Yarsa and Ransom is afraid of 312 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:25.680 Aarsa and noyarsas him why and he's explaining that, well, 313 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:28.720 I can't see you, and you know you're so different 314 00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:31.519 from me, and Ayara says like, well, those aren't reasons 315 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:39.039 to be afraid. I love the line when Yaris is 316 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:45.160 explaining why Earth, why Pelchondra is the silent planet, and 317 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:47.680 he says that they have, you know, they've kind of 318 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:50.839 heard bits and pieces of what's been going on there. 319 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:56.160 And he says that that there are stories among us 320 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:59.640 that he has taken strange counsel, he being melel Dil 321 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:04.119 and dared terrible things wrestling with the bent one in Polchandra. 322 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:07.680 But of this we know less than you. It is 323 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:11.200 a thing we desire to look into, and that, of 324 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:15.640 course echoes what Peter says in his first epistle. He's 325 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:18.759 describing the Gospel and says that it is things into 326 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:23.200 which angels long to look. So here we really get 327 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:26.359 you the other side of that story, from the angelic perspective, 328 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:33.039 which is fascinating. Another like little interchange in that conversation 329 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:37.880 comes when Olearisa is you explaining that he has uh 330 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:42.839 that his servants. You know, we're watching Ransom and the 331 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:45.680 others as they were in their spacecraft coming through deep 332 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:50.599 heaven and ransom us, have you servants out in the heavens? 333 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:56.920 And Oorisa says where else? There is nowhere else, which 334 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:02.000 really distills that you with that view of deep heaven, 335 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:04.799 like the others were describing, where really heaven is what's 336 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:13.640 abundantly filled with life and things, and from the Elderl's perspective, 337 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:15.599 what we see as worlds are really just like pin 338 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:19.240 pricks of almost nothingness in the fabric of deep heaven. 339 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:26.319 And then of course Weston and Divine come in and 340 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:30.480 it's a scene with Weston trying to talk to Aarsa, 341 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:37.440 but he thinks that, you know, Ayarsa is really a 342 00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:40.680 witch doctor projecting his voice. So he looks around and 343 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:42.920 he tries to figure out who's this witch doctor, who 344 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:48.359 is you know, ventriloquising, and he sees this elderly heirass 345 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:51.559 who is you know, falling asleep, and that scene and 346 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:56.000 that you know of detail is fantastic. And the way Weston, 347 00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:02.119 not really knowing that language, tries to speak to to Yarsa, 348 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:10.599 he really speaks as a stereotypical you know, savage, as 349 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:15.640 he would say, in trying to communicate with the Malachandrians 350 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:21.359 professing to be wise, he's become a fool. But then 351 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:26.480 you really see the absurdity of his viewpoint once once 352 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:28.400 he gets to his speech where he says, well, you know, 353 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:30.480 I don't have enough of your language to say it. 354 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.160 So then Ransom translates, and then you see what Western 355 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:37.960 says in English parallel with Ransom's translation, and it really 356 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:40.960 breaks it down from a heavenly perspective, and you begin 357 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:46.440 to appreciate just how absurd Western's viewpoint is. And as 358 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:51.720 a Yarisa points out, Western, he's willing to sacrifice Ransom. 359 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:53.720 He doesn't care for any one man. It's just this 360 00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:01.160 abstract view of humanity that he sees he's striving for 361 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:06.359 and fighting for. So we already start to see the 362 00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:09.559 seeds of the abolition of man that you will come 363 00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:11.400 to fruition and that hideous strength. 364 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.039 Good. Yeah, you just covered a lot of really important points. 365 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:16.839 And so I don't even know how to respond to that, 366 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:20.599 or even if I need to, but to just get 367 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:23.839 at some of that, Yeah, I think that speech or 368 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:28.559 that translation scene where west End is is very pompously 369 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:32.839 giving this great or grace not the right word, but 370 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:35.759 you know, great in the sense of grand robust, this 371 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:38.960 proud speech about progress and he's doing all these things. 372 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:43.480 And then Ransom translates like, well, he says that he's 373 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:47.519 a robber, but not like normal robbers. It's just like 374 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:54.519 all the rhetoric gets stripped down to nothingness. And you know, 375 00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:56.400 we also calls him on this as well, and he 376 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:59.279 says that, Okay, you keep saying that you're fighting for 377 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:01.680 the progress of man, but you can't even define what 378 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:05.400 man is. He says that you love the seed, but 379 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:09.160 not the fulfillment. You love progress itself, but you don't 380 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.680 have any goal that you're actually progressing toward. And if 381 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:16.440 that isn't the rebuttal that modern philosophy needs, and I 382 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:18.880 don't know what is. It is so easy to talk 383 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:21.480 about progress, and I deal with this all the time 384 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:26.640 teaching my public university college students. Right everyone wants to 385 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:29.039 call themselves a progressive. Then I say, Okay, what is 386 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:33.400 it that we're progressing toward? I don't know. And so 387 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:37.119 it just kind of falls apart because and this really 388 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:39.000 gets to the abolish of the man which you referenced, 389 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:42.799 because in a strictly empirical worldview, in a worldview that 390 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:46.720 denies transcendent realities. Well, there is no such thing as good. 391 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:50.279 There's not even such a thing as the form of humanity, 392 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:55.200 although there is is stuff that moves. And when you 393 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:58.680 just have a cosmos of stuff that moves, but there's 394 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:01.759 no question of where ought things to move, you have 395 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:04.119 no way of actually dealing with those questions. That all 396 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:06.359 you get is just movement for the sake of movement. 397 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:10.920 As Lewis says in a satirical evolutionary hymn, progresses what 398 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:16.160 comes next, whatever that is. And so yeah, that's just 399 00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:21.599 a great rebuttal of Weston's empty modern progressivism. That there's 400 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:24.119 no movement, is progress into a void, which of course 401 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:30.119 is not progress at all. Cool, Catherine, what do you have? 402 00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:35.279 Hey there, let's see. Two things really stick out to me. 403 00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:40.720 One is the curiosity that Ransom as a character exhibits, 404 00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:44.839 and that seems to be something that saves him from 405 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:49.720 a great deal of trouble throughout the story. His curiosity 406 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:52.799 about the experience of being in space, I think preserves 407 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:56.640 him from the animosity of Weston and Divine, and then 408 00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:59.160 when he runs away from them, when they actually land 409 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:04.319 on Malacan, he is separated from everything that he knows 410 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.480 for a good while, and then when he first meets 411 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:09.799 maybe the best character in the book, when he first 412 00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:14.839 meets Hyawi, his curiosity is what rescues him from despair 413 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:19.759 because he is a philologist and he suddenly realizes that 414 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:23.400 he does have something in common with this other creature. 415 00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:26.319 And I think Lewis has a very important point here 416 00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:30.759 with curiosity and being aware of looking for connections. Where 417 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:34.720 Weston and Devine didn't ask any questions, they assumed a 418 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.839 great deal about what the Oyarsa wanted, and so they 419 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:41.880 were prepared to bring another person down with them. They 420 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:45.559 were prepared to offer a human sacrifice when instead that's 421 00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:51.839 not what the Oyarsa wanted at all whatsoever. And another 422 00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:53.640 thing that I love about the story as a whole 423 00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:56.920 is it's very classic for Lewis where everything is about inversion. 424 00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:01.839 Everything from the title to the expectation of what deep 425 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:05.319 dark space will be. Everything is flipped on its head 426 00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:08.319 because you think we're going to the silent planet and 427 00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:08.799 we find. 428 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:09.440 Out that we're wrong. 429 00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:13.640 We think that Heaven will be cold and dark, and 430 00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:17.839 instead Bransom describes how warm it is and how bright 431 00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:20.039 and filled with life it is. Right as Olivia was 432 00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:23.119 talking about. It's not dark and empty, it's in fact 433 00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:27.480 filled with life. It seems like it's the source of life. 434 00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:31.319 And that seems to be another medieval aspect for Lewis 435 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:34.960 that's touching on this really classic trope. He probably learned 436 00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:38.640 about it from Chesterton because Chesterton talks about it in Orthodoxy. 437 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:42.240 He talks about the need to leave home so that 438 00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.839 you can understand what home is. You can't love I 439 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:48.400 think he refers to Islington. He says, you can't love 440 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:51.279 Islington or know what it is until you have left 441 00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:54.960 and then come back. And that makes me think of 442 00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:57.319 Ransom when he looks at and he sees that little 443 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:01.039 marble out from the window of this spaceship, and he 444 00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:04.680 asks what that is, and he's struck to realize that 445 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:07.799 that is earth. That he's been taken off of his 446 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:12.880 own home. But as far as that preparation, it seems 447 00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:15.960 like a lot of that maybe was not deliberately set 448 00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:18.599 up by Lewis, but it's there within the story that 449 00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:22.759 he's taken out of his home. He's given access to 450 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:26.119 the old Solar language so that he can do things 451 00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:29.799 in Perlandra and so that he can emerge later on 452 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:34.680 in that hideous strength and that medieval symmetry I think 453 00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:38.079 is really beautiful. And if you're looking for more out 454 00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:40.799 of just an adventure story, I would propose right that 455 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:43.720 Lewis is doing that. He's asking you as a reader 456 00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:48.400 to consider, how can I invert my expectations? 457 00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:50.559 How have I. 458 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.079 Believed that the world is one way when in fact 459 00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:55.079 it's the opposite, And that's just so crucial. I think 460 00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:59.240 that's a that's a theme throughout his fiction and his 461 00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:03.000 nonfiction is well. I think that's that's important for us 462 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:03.559 as readers. 463 00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:07.079 Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, he very often does 464 00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:10.680 do this inversion thing where he'll just suddenly reshape your 465 00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:13.000 understanding of obviously not even just the story, but your 466 00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:16.640 understanding of yourself, in your place in the world, in 467 00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:22.359 the cosmos, what human experience is, you know, And that 468 00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:26.559 very much relates to this further up further idea that 469 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:28.839 we get in the Last Battle the most clearly out 470 00:27:28.839 --> 00:27:31.759 of any of his writing. But I remember there's a 471 00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:33.960 scene where at one point, okay, he's up in the 472 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:36.480 heavens and he's sort of meditating on what all this means, 473 00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.480 reflecting on what it all means, and he's recognizing that 474 00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:42.759 he's now in a plane of reality that he once 475 00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:45.519 thought was empty. Now he recognizes it's more full than 476 00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:48.960 the world that he once knew. So then he thinks, well, okay, 477 00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:52.599 maybe if I go beyond the light of the sun 478 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:55.000 or something of that nature, well maybe then I would 479 00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:59.440 be in the real space, the real nothingness. And he thought, well, 480 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:02.880 a minute, what if there's something even more real than 481 00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:06.960 light itself? And so, what if, you know, beyond this 482 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.079 realm of reality I'm experiencing now in the heavens, what 483 00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:12.640 if there's something even more real that I simply don't 484 00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:16.039 yet have categories for understanding. And so he recognizes, or 485 00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:19.000 least he hints at the suspicion that there's an even 486 00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:23.000 greater reality than the heavens. And so he is increasing 487 00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:26.359 the heavens context, moved further and further up, even beyond 488 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:28.960 the cosmos, perhaps even to the imperion of God, which 489 00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:32.720 in the medieval cosmos is what's on the well going 490 00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:35.759 from the Earth out the far outskirts of reality. But 491 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:39.160 from a more a better perspective, that actually is the 492 00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:41.359 center of reality, and it's Earth that's on the outskirts. 493 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:45.160 I think That's an important point that a lot of 494 00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:50.480 times people moderns will look back on the medieval view 495 00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:52.920 of the cosmos and say, oh, the Medievals put Earth 496 00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:54.759 at the center of things because they thought they were 497 00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:57.720 so important. No, it's just the opposite. They really put 498 00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:00.319 themselves at the bottom of things. That when you're really 499 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:02.640 looking with medieval eyes, you recognize that you are on 500 00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:05.400 the outskirts of existence, living down here on this rock. 501 00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:08.640 The real center is God. And that's something that's said 502 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:11.839 explicitly in Perilandra that we're always looking for the center, 503 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:15.680 but the center is Meleldel Blessed be He, and so 504 00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:19.400 God is the center. And so the more that we're 505 00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:22.519 moving away from what we tend to think of being 506 00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:25.559 the center, we're actually moving toward the true center, which 507 00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:27.960 then helps us to center the world that we know, 508 00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:30.880 which goes to what you're talking about about how that 509 00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:34.079 allows us to actually see our home once we've left 510 00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:35.440 it in the right way and come back to it 511 00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:37.599 in the right way. And we see that play out 512 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:42.720 throughout the series. As Ransom becomes this bridge figure, he 513 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:47.240 starts to recontextualize the side on planet through who he is. 514 00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:51.359 He starts to mediate the voice that it's meant to 515 00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:55.039 have coming from deep heaven. So he starts to recontextualize things, 516 00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:58.039 he starts to redeem things as he plays this priest 517 00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:04.319 like role. Cool, Jordan, I know you you jumped in 518 00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:06.599 a little bit late, and so go and tell us 519 00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:08.240 your favorite Lewis book and then something about Out the 520 00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:08.839 Silent Planet. 521 00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:13.440 So I think my favorite Lewis book is This is 522 00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:15.480 going to sound like a cop out, but it probably 523 00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:18.920 is true. Whichever one I'm reading at the present moment, 524 00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:23.240 I don't know. It's it's just too hard to pick. 525 00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:27.319 If you're gonna force me to do it, though, it's 526 00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:33.119 probably going to be It's probably going to be The Lion, 527 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:37.200 the Witch, and the Wardrobe, I think. But Colin says, 528 00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:43.759 the Magician's nephew. What was the next question I've already forgotten? 529 00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:49.160 Oh introduced myself. Oh I'm Jordan. I'm a dad, husband, 530 00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:53.000 Lutheran pastor, chronic fiction enjoyer. 531 00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:56.680 And then what's something that you've enjoyed or something about 532 00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:57.599 Out of the Silent Planet. 533 00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:02.200 So a couple of things that kind of immediately came 534 00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:05.680 to mind is I really liked the focus on the language, 535 00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:11.000 how Ransom tries to learn the language of Malacandra. I've 536 00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:15.359 always sort of been fascinated with other languages, and it's 537 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:19.319 neat to see his journey through that. I don't know 538 00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:21.279 if that has to do with, you know, kind of 539 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:24.680 my early exposure to Tolkien and his languages, but I've 540 00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:27.160 always just kind of found language to be just kind 541 00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:29.759 of a fun thing to play with. And I really 542 00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:32.440 like how Lewis just kind of puts it out there 543 00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:35.480 for us to sort of work through it with him. 544 00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:41.680 That really drew me in the second thing that kind 545 00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:44.960 of stuck out to me, and this really carries over 546 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.079 into the next couple of books too. It's sort of 547 00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:52.400 this idea of dominion, that is, who has the proper 548 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:56.880 proper authority where you kind of see this with the 549 00:31:57.480 --> 00:32:01.559 division between the three species there on Malacandra, that each 550 00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:05.119 one has its own interests and expertise. I mean, even 551 00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:08.759 when Ransom wants to give al Gray the pocket watch, 552 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:12.319 he turns it down and says that the fifful triggy 553 00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:14.960 would would have more use out of this, because then 554 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:18.119 they could build more of them and give them to 555 00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:23.839 other folks on on the on Malacandra, I think that 556 00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:28.240 that idea of just the differences between the species and 557 00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:32.000 the way that they compliment one another is really kind 558 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:33.839 of something interesting. Like I said that, I think it's 559 00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:37.319 going to carry through. So I guess I don't want 560 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:39.480 to say too much more about the other two books 561 00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:44.839 since we haven't gotten there yet, but just the the 562 00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:51.039 the diversity of life on Malacandra, and yet how well 563 00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:54.960 it all works together, how ordered it is, speaks to 564 00:32:55.480 --> 00:32:59.799 really the order of the whole, the whole creation in 565 00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:00.799 his mind. 566 00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:04.799 Yeah, and so a lot to comment on that, although 567 00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:06.039 ILL try to be brief. Can we have a lot 568 00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:10.880 to cover tonight? But I agree that the it's very 569 00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:14.440 interesting having your protagonist be a philologist, something that I 570 00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:16.119 think that Lewis is one of the few people who 571 00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:20.039 can get away with doing that well. I really love 572 00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:22.039 one of my favorite scenes, just because I find it 573 00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:26.200 funny more than even profound, is when he first encounters 574 00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:29.480 the fross and he recognizes that it's speaking to him 575 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:33.240 in a rational language, and he goes from being terrified 576 00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:36.359 to just thinking about how he's going to write some 577 00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:40.599 malacantry and grammar book. So he's just meditating on his 578 00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:45.200 philological word nerdery here instead of immediately dealing with the 579 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:49.680 fact that he's communicating or an alien species at least 580 00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:51.799 alien to him, is trying to communicate with them, and 581 00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:54.319 so he's kind of lost that context. He's going back 582 00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:56.400 into just filology mood. And I just found it funny 583 00:33:56.400 --> 00:34:00.519 and very very lowis to me, and then I had 584 00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:02.319 more to say, but it totally fell in my head. 585 00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:06.920 So speaking of space, I guess, Zackie, what do you 586 00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:07.640 have for us? 587 00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:15.400 So I love the opening scene when Ransom ends up 588 00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:20.000 going to the house that once belonged to Alice and 589 00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:24.119 he has to climb the garden wall to get in, 590 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:30.159 and then eventually he has this hallucination or dream featuring 591 00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:35.159 owls and some interesting questions that they pose to him, 592 00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:42.159 and this whole idea that's also prevalent in Chesterton's Orthodoxy, 593 00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:45.079 where he talks about how men are saying because they 594 00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:50.039 have one foot in reality and one foot in fairyland, 595 00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:55.599 or one foot in earth and one foot in fairy tales. 596 00:34:56.360 --> 00:34:59.280 And I can't help but think that maybe Lewis is 597 00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:04.360 referencing in this scene and the owls are asking Ransom 598 00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:06.920 who he is, and I think Ransom doesn't know who 599 00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:09.880 he is until maybe the end of this book, or 600 00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:13.360 at least doesn't understand himself very well. And we see 601 00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:16.920 over the course of this book he faces these incredible 602 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:22.480 challenges and he goes on this wild adventure and he 603 00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:28.000 comes through it all at the end having faced several 604 00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:33.920 of his struggles and weaknesses, and he is stronger and 605 00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:41.000 more sure of himself and becomes this nearly angelic figure 606 00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:44.639 himself over the course of the trilogy. So it's just 607 00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:48.480 really interesting to see where he starts off and how 608 00:35:48.679 --> 00:35:52.559 that progresses through the course of this novel. 609 00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:57.320 Yeah good, and that vision that he has towards the 610 00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:01.199 beginning of the book is obviously very significant. Ransom has 611 00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:03.800 one foot in the known, one foot in the unknown, 612 00:36:04.039 --> 00:36:06.880 one foot in the walled garden, the other foot in ferry, 613 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:10.079 I guess, or perhaps even the heavens, as he really 614 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:13.960 does serve as this bridge figure, and that becomes a 615 00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:16.840 growing motif throughout this year, especially once we get to 616 00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:19.440 that hideous strength that he serves as this bridge figure 617 00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:23.760 between Earth and the heavens. Whereas in that vision western 618 00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:28.280 and divine, they go through this door into what for 619 00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:30.920 them really is space, because they don't find substance there. 620 00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:33.320 They're pushed back through the door back when they started. 621 00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:40.360 And that's because even though they do enter into this physically, 622 00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:45.320 they enter into the heavens spiritually existentially, they never really 623 00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:50.760 do they bring the silent planet to Malachandr, whereas Ransom 624 00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.920 learns how to contextualize himself within the society of Malacandra, 625 00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:57.639 which itself is contextualized within the heavens. And that brings 626 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:00.760 us back to Jordan's point that I was going to 627 00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:02.960 respond to that fell out of my head but now 628 00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:05.559 came back. It was pushed back to the door, I guess. 629 00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:08.880 And so you know, he talked about how you've got 630 00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:12.199 this well ordered society, and I mean, this gives us 631 00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:14.840 a good point to say, it's all in Plato that 632 00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:18.599 right there, we're really getting the republic essentially, where we 633 00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:24.480 have these different aspects of civilization that have different niche roles, 634 00:37:24.519 --> 00:37:27.320 but they all work together as a unified whole. And 635 00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:31.800 so an individual well ordered is a microcosm of society, 636 00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:35.039 which itself is a microcosm of the cosmos. And so 637 00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:38.440 we get this what we might look up as I 638 00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:40.440 look at as a bottom up model, but which really 639 00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:43.039 is a top down model with the heavens kind of 640 00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:45.719 rightly ordering all the way down to the individual, and 641 00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:48.199 then everything works its way back up. It's the sort 642 00:37:48.199 --> 00:37:52.639 of exit return motif which is very important for medieval theology, 643 00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:56.599 that everything comes from God and everything in its right 644 00:37:56.840 --> 00:37:59.039 order returns back to God. And so we see that 645 00:37:59.079 --> 00:38:01.920 play out in the way that's society works, which of 646 00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:06.920 course malcating society. At the top of this ordered society, well, 647 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:10.519 now you have the philosopher king of the Oyarsa, and 648 00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:14.440 so it's very platonic, or it's very Christian platonic, as 649 00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:22.280 Lewis Verry often is, the realms of fairy are wild 650 00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:24.920 and often dangerous, and one should never embark on a 651 00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:28.880 quest unprepared and unarmed. Middleborn Arms is a family business 652 00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:31.800 that uses the best quality materials in crafting the finest 653 00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:35.599 wooden swords on the market. Their squirely Armed swords are 654 00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:39.079 handcrafted entirely from hickory for the young princesses and knights 655 00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:42.400 in training. 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Are we 676 00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:52.480 told what Folchandro what the Silent Planet was called before 677 00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:53.159 it became. 678 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:58.480 Bookandro, Not that I know of. Nope, I guess well, 679 00:39:58.519 --> 00:40:05.199 we'll never know. It's u prelapsarian name. Well, keeping that silent, 680 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:09.239 I suppose moving on to Peralandra. So in this story, 681 00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:13.119 now we have we're actually beginning with the character of C. S. 682 00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:15.159 Lewis as he kind of writes himself into the story. 683 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:16.000 And so C. S. 684 00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:20.519 Lewis is going to see his friend Ransom, and as 685 00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:24.480 he goes to see Ransom, he feels this great dread, 686 00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:27.960 this great anxiety, and he's really just being haunted. That's 687 00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:29.599 the best word. And I think that Lewis even uses 688 00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:33.639 that word. It feels like a haunted journey, haunted house. 689 00:40:34.039 --> 00:40:37.519 And I love how Lewis meditates on that word haunted 690 00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:40.280 when he says that it's a kind of a word 691 00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:42.920 where even a child who's never heard the definition before, 692 00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:44.840 you just hear the word haunted and you kind of 693 00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:46.920 have an idea as to what it means. It's like 694 00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:50.599 the idea is contained within the sound. But anyways, he's 695 00:40:50.679 --> 00:40:53.960 very haunted, and eventually he does make his way to 696 00:40:54.039 --> 00:40:56.800 Ransom's house despite the fact that he's just so terrified, 697 00:40:56.840 --> 00:40:58.599 and Ransom is at home, but he sees a note 698 00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:01.239 on the door and so he goes inside and this 699 00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:05.119 is when he comes in contact with the uyarsa Malcandra, 700 00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:10.320 who's there waiting for Ransom, and he recognizes that this 701 00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:13.599 thing is good, that this thing is bigger and really 702 00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:17.159 more real than he is, and he's initially terrified of that. 703 00:41:17.599 --> 00:41:21.920 And we get this some great lines about kind of 704 00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:24.679 our perception of goodness, that we tend to think that 705 00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:27.519 goodness is going to be good for us, because we 706 00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:29.800 don't stop to think that maybe we're bent creatures and 707 00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:33.119 maybe the good is actually going to overpower or maybe 708 00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:36.400 even destroy us. But nonetheless, eventually Ransom shows up, and 709 00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:42.039 it becomes revealed that Ransom is being tasked by Malacandra 710 00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:46.280 to go to Perilandra, which we know as Venus. He 711 00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:49.199 doesn't really know why he's going there, but he gets 712 00:41:49.239 --> 00:41:52.239 in this coffin shaped vessel and is shot off to 713 00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:57.440 Perilandrum where he lands or better yet, he's really received 714 00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:01.440 into Perilandra, as we get this Venusian influence playing out here, 715 00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:04.960 and he comes in contact with the Green Lady Tinadrill, 716 00:42:05.239 --> 00:42:07.679 who is, as Lewis says in one of his letters, 717 00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:12.119 she's kind of a mix between Eve and Mary. She 718 00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:15.960 is a pre fallen woman, and this is the only 719 00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:18.280 person that Lewis comes in contact with for quite a while, 720 00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:22.519 but eventually we see somebody else fall down like lightning, 721 00:42:22.760 --> 00:42:25.079 and this of course is going to be Weston, who 722 00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:28.840 very quickly turns into or is revealed to be the 723 00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:32.039 unman essentially the devil. And so for most of the 724 00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:37.239 book we get this conflict, or this contest as Weston 725 00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:40.719 or as the unmanned, the Devil and Ransom really compete 726 00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:44.239 for the soul of Tenadrill and Parentlandra really as as 727 00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:48.320 a whole. And eventually Ransom recognizes that this is not 728 00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:51.199 going to be a debate, that he can't out rhetoric 729 00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:53.800 the devil, but what he can apparently do is punch 730 00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:56.360 him in the face, and so they get into a 731 00:42:56.400 --> 00:43:00.519 physical fight, and eventually in the in the the belly 732 00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:04.480 of Perilandra down in the earth, Ransom kills the un 733 00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:06.920 man comes up and then we get this grand ceremony 734 00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:10.880 of glorification as Tinadrill and Tor and Peralandra all enter 735 00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.480 into their glory. And so that really is the story. 736 00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:16.360 There's I mean, there's a lot we could deal with here, 737 00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:21.119 but let's see what comes out to you. Um, I 738 00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:25.079 can go at random at this point, Catherine, what do 739 00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:25.320 you have? 740 00:43:26.679 --> 00:43:27.159 Okay? 741 00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:31.920 I was thinking about this over the last few days, 742 00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:35.199 because it had been a while right since we've done Perilandra, 743 00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:39.880 and of the of the three, Perilandra honestly is not 744 00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:41.480 the one that I think of the most. I do 745 00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:45.880 find it the most difficult, I think, even though that 746 00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:48.480 ind you, Strength is a little bit harder to get into. 747 00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:54.000 I find Perilandra hard conceptually to get into. However, with 748 00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:57.840 that said, as we were thinking of the marshall right, 749 00:43:57.880 --> 00:44:02.599 the manly influence of and then the Nusian or the 750 00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:07.199 feminine influence of Perilandra, I was thinking about Lewis the medievalist, 751 00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:10.400 and the way that Ransom seems to show us the 752 00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:14.239 ideal of courtly love, because he's there and right, as 753 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:16.840 we've alluded to, he is going to rescue the Green Lady. 754 00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:20.119 He's going to rescue Tenandirl from evil. But he does 755 00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:23.280 not do it in order to win her hand. He's 756 00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:28.079 not romantically interested or is going to earn anything for this. 757 00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:30.840 He simply does it for love of the lady, in 758 00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:34.400 order to reunite her with her proper mate, with the King. 759 00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:38.239 I thought that was really beautiful that for both of 760 00:44:38.239 --> 00:44:40.639 these novels. And then again as we bridge to that 761 00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:45.280 hideos strength, since they're both interested in gender and looking 762 00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:48.599 at kind of archetypes of those things. I thought it 763 00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:51.719 was beautiful that he sets up this second novel and 764 00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:56.039 he gives us this platonic form of love and relationship 765 00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:57.880 between the two of them. 766 00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:02.320 Yeah, it's definitely significant that we get the order of 767 00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:05.280 these books right. That he begins in Malacandrum, and then 768 00:45:05.320 --> 00:45:09.280 he's even commissioned by Malcandra, by by the real Mars, 769 00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:12.599 and so he's being commissioned in this martial influence to 770 00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:17.239 play the knight, to use his strength in service of 771 00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:21.760 the lady. And so we definitely do get that that courtly, 772 00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:28.360 that very you know, knightly chivalric relationship between Ransom and 773 00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:32.840 Tenandral who uses his strength not to dominate but to 774 00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:37.239 serve to guard her virtue. Well, I guess I'll let 775 00:45:37.239 --> 00:45:40.400 everyone else talk before I pontificate further. Olivia, what do 776 00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:40.960 you have for us? 777 00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:44.679 This might be my favorite of the trilogy because it's 778 00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:48.039 just so pleasant to be in just the way he 779 00:45:48.199 --> 00:45:55.719 describes Perlandra, and it really does sound so editic, so heavenly, 780 00:45:55.840 --> 00:46:00.079 so just like a place you want to be, like 781 00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:05.159 that hideous strength where the atmosphere is very different. Lewis 782 00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:09.159 in general is so good at writing, but good like 783 00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:14.440 other authors, they either just can't comprehend goodness entirely, or 784 00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:20.960 they they can't put like no flesh and blood to it, 785 00:46:21.039 --> 00:46:24.920 like it's just a static thing. But Lewis breathes life 786 00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:27.440 into it. He's like able to incarnate good in a 787 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:30.960 way that most authors can't. And we see that in Perlandra, 788 00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:37.079 where just the whole world is unfallen and good and 789 00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:42.360 brimming with vitality. And then let Alone, of course your 790 00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:44.639 tour into na drawl, and as we see in thee 791 00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:51.000 Rss as well, and then in contrast, he sets up 792 00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:59.039 that that paradise so well that then when Weston comes, 793 00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:03.920 there's that scene where Ransom wakes up and he finds 794 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:07.000 the dismembered frogs and he sees the one frog that's 795 00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:09.480 been you mutilated, and then more and more frogs, and 796 00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:15.599 he finds Western mutilating another frog. And in our world, 797 00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:19.480 I think we're just so innundated with suffering and with 798 00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:24.960 horrors that to see them in Perilandra and that you 799 00:47:25.159 --> 00:47:30.360 unblemished world, we really appreciate the tragedy of just the 800 00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:33.639 one fallen Sparrow, let alone everything else, but just to 801 00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:37.119 see that one mutilated frog but filled Ransom with such horror. 802 00:47:37.159 --> 00:47:38.480 He felt like he was going to be sick, and 803 00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:43.840 you feel that as the reader. But with that contrast 804 00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:49.440 between that perfect goodness and the suffering and the horror, 805 00:47:49.480 --> 00:47:54.679 even in just that one small act. Just as an aside, 806 00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:58.360 I don't think Lewis ever goes into defail about like 807 00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:01.960 what shade of green the Green Lady is, but I 808 00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:04.000 kind of imagine her as looking a little bit like 809 00:48:04.760 --> 00:48:08.400 Statue of Liberty, which of course is copper, and copper 810 00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:13.320 is the metal associated with Venus. So that's why head canon. 811 00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:19.599 Anyway, Well, I like it, and you know, knowing Lewis, 812 00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:22.320 I don't think it's necessarily beyond the mark. Everything that 813 00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:26.119 he does is intentional, so yeah, I think it's very possible. 814 00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:29.840 But yeah, Lewis does do such a great job of 815 00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:35.239 giving us the spirit of the good, of love, of beauty, 816 00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:38.760 which of course is the influence of Venus. I think 817 00:48:38.760 --> 00:48:43.920 that just exudes love and beauty. I mean throughout the text, 818 00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:46.280 even to the very way that he's received into the 819 00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:48.400 planet and so back in out of the side of 820 00:48:48.440 --> 00:48:51.440 the planet, and when he lands on Malacandra, he's landing 821 00:48:51.480 --> 00:48:54.960 on a very hard, solid surface and disorienting, and you know, 822 00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:58.159 he gets sick, and in fact, he's even described as 823 00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:01.880 feeling like a pregnant and so it's his idea that 824 00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:05.880 as he encounters the hyper masculine, he feels feminine in 825 00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:09.199 relation to it in a very almost like sickening kind 826 00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:11.320 of way. So it's all just disorienting and he's thrown off, 827 00:49:11.559 --> 00:49:15.199 whereas in Peralandra he doesn't really land on the planet. 828 00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:18.440 He's received into it and then the vessel just sort 829 00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:22.119 of dissolves around him, and so it's very different experience. 830 00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:23.960 He doesn't as much land as he has received. And 831 00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:28.800 then there's so much emphasis on pleasure in the right context, 832 00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:31.679 to the point where he's initially thrown off because it 833 00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:34.320 feels like to experience that kind of pleasure should be sinful, 834 00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:37.920 but it's not, because he's encountering unfallen pleasure, pleasure in 835 00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:41.239 its right context, where it's not just self referential, but 836 00:49:41.239 --> 00:49:44.800 it's actually pulling him out of himself even more. And 837 00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:49.800 then obviously there's something special about the innocence of tor 838 00:49:50.239 --> 00:49:52.000 or of Tinadrill. Well, I guess tour as well but 839 00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:54.400 you know, Tim trel is obviously who we're encountering a 840 00:49:54.440 --> 00:49:57.840 lot more that it really does highlight the fact that 841 00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:00.360 lu is also really good at demonstrating the demonic as 842 00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:05.320 well the evil. And I love the depictions that we 843 00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:09.320 get of the unman which really, as Olivia you mentioned, 844 00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:11.280 we see seeds of that in Western at the end 845 00:50:11.280 --> 00:50:12.679 of Out of the Side of the Planet, that this 846 00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:18.199 is part of the same trajectory where he's into progress 847 00:50:18.199 --> 00:50:20.800 for the sake of progress, where he has this great pride, 848 00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:24.480 but there's really no substance there. He is the actual space, 849 00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:27.360 right not the heavens. He is the space. The emptiness 850 00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:31.039 one of my favorite parts this is just always, I 851 00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:33.239 don't know, I find it kind of funny've also insightful, 852 00:50:34.119 --> 00:50:38.760 where the Unmanned is giving all of these stories to Tenandrill, 853 00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:43.400 trying to lead her to see herself as some kind 854 00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:47.679 of heroic, feminine tragedy of swords, and so he's trying 855 00:50:47.719 --> 00:50:50.239 to call her to step outside of herself, to progress 856 00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:54.239 into the void, to be this pioneer. And he's going 857 00:50:54.280 --> 00:50:56.360 through all these stories and when one doesn't really land, 858 00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:58.199 he just drops it and goes to another one. And 859 00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:00.320 so it seems kind of random's kind of chaotic, and 860 00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:03.800 at first Ransom isn't really clear exactly what's going on here, 861 00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:06.559 how all these stories are connected. But then Lewis says, 862 00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:09.559 Alassid dawned upon him when all these stories were about. 863 00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:12.119 Each one of these women had stood forth alone and 864 00:51:12.159 --> 00:51:14.840 braved a terrible risk for her child, her lover, or 865 00:51:14.840 --> 00:51:19.320 her people, excuse me. Each one had misunderstood, reviled, and persecuted, 866 00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:23.320 but each also magnificently vindicated by the event. The precise 867 00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:26.199 details were often not very easy to follow. Rainsom had 868 00:51:26.239 --> 00:51:29.119 more than a suspicion that many of these noble pioneers 869 00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:32.519 had been what an ordinary terrestrial speech we call witches, 870 00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:38.880 a perverse. So he's getting all these disconnected stories of 871 00:51:39.159 --> 00:51:42.639 progress and heroism. But he says, I get this impression 872 00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:44.360 that really what we're dealing with when you stip away 873 00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:46.960 the rhetoric and get to these substance or lack thereof 874 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:49.599 of what's being presented, it's just which is some perverts. 875 00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:54.679 And if that does not strike home with the way 876 00:51:54.719 --> 00:51:59.320 that we the way the modern culture you know, puts 877 00:51:59.360 --> 00:52:05.320 forth ideas through media, through politicians, that pretty much all 878 00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:07.079 of the heroes that are propped up when you really 879 00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:09.199 get down to it, I mean, we're dealing with heroes 880 00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:11.480 that are in avoid, and heroes that are in an 881 00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:13.920 avoid can't really be heroic. They don't have any substance 882 00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:16.320 to stand on, They don't have any substance to give you. 883 00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:19.239 All they can do is suck you into their domain 884 00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:23.079 at best. And well, that's not heroic, that's not sacrificial, 885 00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:25.599 that's not beautiful, it's not good. There's no way it 886 00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:27.519 could be. They don't have a context for that. And 887 00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:29.480 so I think that Lewis is doing a great job 888 00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:34.800 here of just demonstrating the emptiness of modern progressive rhetoric. 889 00:52:36.199 --> 00:52:39.400 All right, Jordan, what do you have from Perilandra? 890 00:52:41.239 --> 00:52:43.880 All right? So I'd like to carry my dominion theme 891 00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:52.159 through here. That so, when Weston's craft lands and Ransom 892 00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:57.400 realizes who it is, he sprints down this mountain like 893 00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:01.159 a crazy man in order to stop her from meeting him. 894 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:05.800 And before that, there's this this whole conversation how he 895 00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:08.880 needs to go meet meet with this this this new 896 00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:13.159 person that's come into Perilandra, how she should really stay away, 897 00:53:13.880 --> 00:53:19.239 and she says that she must go and meet him 898 00:53:19.320 --> 00:53:22.760 because she is the lady and mother of Perilandra, and 899 00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:26.079 that it would not do for Ransom to to do that, 900 00:53:26.559 --> 00:53:31.719 that it really is her duty as as the one 901 00:53:31.719 --> 00:53:34.920 who has dominion over Perilandra. I really thought that was 902 00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:39.639 that was kind of interesting. So that's kind of that 903 00:53:39.679 --> 00:53:42.880 part carrying through. And then also, I guess sort of 904 00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:45.639 almost a perversion of that, you know, kind of going 905 00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:49.039 off of what you were talking about, Andrew, was when 906 00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.760 the young man was talking about the stories about men 907 00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:56.960 and how how they were, you know, sluggish octs, like 908 00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:02.519 they were prepared to try nothing, risk nothing, make no exertion, 909 00:54:02.679 --> 00:54:05.000 that they're they're kind of knuckle draggers, I guess you 910 00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:10.280 could say. And Ransom, who in the book it's said 911 00:54:10.280 --> 00:54:12.599 that he doesn't really have any pride in his own sex, 912 00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:18.280 found himself almost believing it for a minute. And the 913 00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:20.679 interesting thing to me with that was that, you know, 914 00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:24.119 that's a constant drumbeat that we hear an awful lot 915 00:54:24.199 --> 00:54:28.599 from media and entertainment today that men are sort of 916 00:54:28.639 --> 00:54:31.840 stupid and their wives, you know, are essentially having to 917 00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:35.360 raise another child along with the children that that she 918 00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:38.960 shares with this man. And so there's sort of an 919 00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:45.519 inversion there of the of the of the dominion deal there. 920 00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:49.039 Yeah, I guess in that point we can say it's 921 00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:54.199 all in Homer Simpson. Yeah. I think that's just a 922 00:54:54.199 --> 00:54:56.039 good point that Lewis is doing such a great job 923 00:54:56.039 --> 00:55:00.079 of correcting, basically from every angle, the way that we 924 00:55:00.199 --> 00:55:04.639 tend to view gender, that it is something real, and 925 00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:07.239 that there is a glory to feminine, and there is 926 00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:10.519 a glory to the masculine, and that that's what really 927 00:55:10.840 --> 00:55:13.360 that's a central theme of this entire series. It's all 928 00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:17.079 about the right relationship of the masculine to the feminine. 929 00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:18.440 Yeah. 930 00:55:20.360 --> 00:55:22.039 Well, I won't get too abstract at this point. Well, 931 00:55:22.039 --> 00:55:23.719 we'll leave it there for now and I'll let other 932 00:55:23.719 --> 00:55:26.480 people talk. Jackie, what do you have from Perilandro? 933 00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:27.920 Yeah? 934 00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:31.360 So I thought the opening scene again was really fun. 935 00:55:31.480 --> 00:55:34.840 I love that Lewis threw himself in there as the narrator, 936 00:55:35.519 --> 00:55:41.760 and we hear already about how Ransom's reputation has evolved 937 00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:45.960 over the course of the space between these two books, 938 00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:49.639 and how he's known to keep strange company, which makes 939 00:55:49.639 --> 00:55:58.400 me think of Hebrews thirteen and entertaining angels. But then 940 00:55:58.840 --> 00:56:02.960 we see Ransom to put all that he learned in 941 00:56:03.159 --> 00:56:05.760 Out of the Silent Planet into play here on pera 942 00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:13.440 Landra for a great service and intervention, And it's a 943 00:56:13.480 --> 00:56:20.679 really wonderful story. I do love the point that Jordan 944 00:56:20.840 --> 00:56:23.320 was making about how the lady of Perlandra would be 945 00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:27.880 so inhospitable for her to not greet her guests, and 946 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:32.599 how she is so fearless and she's so brave. She's 947 00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:37.519 a wonderful female character in Lewis, and she foreshadows all 948 00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:39.960 of these great characters we get in that hideous strength 949 00:56:39.960 --> 00:56:43.960 who are women also? So it all ties in very nicely. 950 00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:48.079 Good, fantastic. All right, My screens had jump around a 951 00:56:48.079 --> 00:56:50.639 little bit on me, David. 952 00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:56.159 But when I was looking through this again today, something 953 00:56:56.280 --> 00:57:02.559 hit me. In chapter two, when Lewis has been facing 954 00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:05.039 this kind of spiritual attack on the way there, and 955 00:57:05.119 --> 00:57:09.440 when he actually meets with Ransom, he says, I'm getting 956 00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:11.599 more worried every day about this whole business. And it 957 00:57:11.639 --> 00:57:14.480 came into my head as I was on my way here. Oh, 958 00:57:14.519 --> 00:57:16.239 they'll put all sorts of things into your head if 959 00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:19.159 you let them, said Ransom lightly. The best plan is 960 00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:22.320 to take no notice and keep straight on. Don't try 961 00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:25.400 to answer them. They like drawing you into an interminable argument, 962 00:57:26.239 --> 00:57:30.679 and I feel like that foreshadows the interminable argument that 963 00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:34.360 he gets into on Perilandra, and he kind of forgets 964 00:57:34.360 --> 00:57:39.280 his own advice when he gets there. And I feel 965 00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:45.800 like larger themes in this book are that he's painting 966 00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:49.440 a picture again of a world. What would it be 967 00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:53.079 like to truly be content? What does true contentment look like? 968 00:57:54.039 --> 00:57:59.480 And the whole nature of Perilandra in the beginning is 969 00:57:59.800 --> 00:58:03.079 you have to just take everything as it comes. Here's 970 00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:07.440 the fruit that has been brought to you. It's totally 971 00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:10.280 dark at night, you wake up in almost literally a 972 00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:15.119 whole new world because the island, the flotilla of plants 973 00:58:15.239 --> 00:58:18.199 that you are riding the waves on, well maybe it 974 00:58:18.239 --> 00:58:20.559 has brought you next to another one that you can explore, 975 00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:25.599 or maybe you're nowhere near. They have to trust God 976 00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:28.840 and take what he brings to them. And when he 977 00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:33.079 starts talking about you know, well he has that one 978 00:58:33.159 --> 00:58:37.000 fruit that is just so amazing that he wants another one. 979 00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:40.760 But then he realizes it was so amazing that it 980 00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:43.559 would cheapen it like trying to listen to the same 981 00:58:43.639 --> 00:58:47.000 symphony twice in a day. That he needed to move on. 982 00:58:47.119 --> 00:58:49.719 And then he discovered that there were some berries he 983 00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:51.320 was eating, and every once in a while one of 984 00:58:51.320 --> 00:58:54.119 them would have a red sinner that just tasted amazing. 985 00:58:54.239 --> 00:58:57.519 And he said, you know, on Earth, we would have 986 00:58:57.559 --> 00:58:59.639 figured out how to just breed those red ones in 987 00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:05.440 charge extra money just for that. But I believe he's 988 00:59:05.519 --> 00:59:11.159 talking to the lady and trying to explain how you 989 00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:13.079 want things. I can't remember if it was the unmanner, 990 00:59:13.079 --> 00:59:16.119 if it was ransom, But she says, the picture of 991 00:59:16.159 --> 00:59:19.960 the fruit you have not found is still for a 992 00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:23.400 moment before you, And if you wished, if it were 993 00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:26.119 possible to wish, you could keep it there. You could 994 00:59:26.159 --> 00:59:28.800 send your soul after the good you'd expected, instead of 995 00:59:28.840 --> 00:59:31.119 turning it to the good you had got. You could 996 00:59:31.159 --> 00:59:33.920 refuse the real good. You could make the real fruit 997 00:59:33.960 --> 00:59:38.480 taste insipid by thinking of the other. And I just 998 00:59:39.519 --> 00:59:42.440 I don't know. I never really thought about contentment in 999 00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:47.719 that way and the way that you know. We'll quote 1000 00:59:47.719 --> 00:59:50.320 Galatians and say I can do all things through Christ, 1001 00:59:50.320 --> 00:59:52.920 who gives me strength, and will take that to mean 1002 00:59:53.760 --> 00:59:57.159 I can win the big game, or I can get 1003 00:59:57.199 --> 00:59:59.840 this job. I can be the most successful person in 1004 00:59:59.840 --> 01:00:04.559 the area. But in context, it means I can take 1005 01:00:04.599 --> 01:00:09.159 whatever God puts in my path. I can live whatever 1006 01:00:09.239 --> 01:00:11.440 life God has given me and be content with it. 1007 01:00:11.480 --> 01:00:15.079 Because Paul was talking about I've been in prison, i 1008 01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:18.199 have had things, I've gone hungry, and I can do 1009 01:00:18.320 --> 01:00:20.760 all of these things because I am relying on the 1010 01:00:20.800 --> 01:00:26.800 strength of Christ and so and it kind of comes 1011 01:00:26.800 --> 01:00:31.480 to a head as Ransom knows that, Hey, the reason 1012 01:00:31.559 --> 01:00:33.679 I'm being sent I don't know what it is. But 1013 01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:38.000 he kind of convinces himself that it can't it can't 1014 01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:40.320 be this. You know, I'm just going to say, hey, 1015 01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:43.440 I gave it my best try and I didn't succeed. 1016 01:00:44.199 --> 01:00:47.760 And then he realizes that that that's not that's not right, 1017 01:00:47.800 --> 01:00:51.400 that he can be the instrument. But then we get 1018 01:00:51.440 --> 01:00:54.719 the wonderful thing towards the end where he's saying, be comforted. 1019 01:00:54.760 --> 01:00:58.039 It is no doing of yours. You're not great, though 1020 01:00:58.039 --> 01:00:59.920 you could have prevented a thing so great that deep 1021 01:01:00.079 --> 01:01:03.320 Heaven sees it with amazement. Be comforted, small one. In 1022 01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:06.960 your smallness. He lays no merit on you. Receive him. 1023 01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:10.079 Be glad, have no fear, lest your shoulders be bearing 1024 01:01:10.159 --> 01:01:13.039 this world Look, it is beneath your head and it 1025 01:01:13.079 --> 01:01:16.400 carries you. And I just think that's beautiful, a beautiful 1026 01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:22.559 example of how we are meant to live as Christians. 1027 01:01:22.599 --> 01:01:25.800 You know, we do not do god favors, and the 1028 01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:29.119 Ephesians two ten says, you know, we are His creation, 1029 01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:32.199 created in Christ Jesus, to do good works that He 1030 01:01:32.360 --> 01:01:35.360 has placed in our path so that we will walk 1031 01:01:35.360 --> 01:01:37.840 in them, which is what the lady is doing all 1032 01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:41.400 over Perilander. She's just walking wherever. That's why they have 1033 01:01:41.480 --> 01:01:45.800 the rule at the beginning, at least not to stay 1034 01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:50.719 on the solid ground. You're going to be carried where 1035 01:01:50.719 --> 01:01:52.639 God wants you to be. And I just think it's 1036 01:01:52.679 --> 01:01:55.880 a fascinating way to get these ideas across. 1037 01:01:57.280 --> 01:02:02.360 Yeah, I think that's very well said. We really see 1038 01:02:03.559 --> 01:02:06.920 a central theme of Lewis playing out in this book 1039 01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:12.280 where we go from I mean, essentially, yeah, we go 1040 01:02:12.320 --> 01:02:15.480 from this materialistic modernist viewpoint. You know, even though as 1041 01:02:15.519 --> 01:02:18.519 we've said, ranisoms of professing Christian. They see s Lewis 1042 01:02:18.599 --> 01:02:21.320 character is a professing Christian, but they's still very much 1043 01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:25.519 coming out of modernity and learning to experience these things 1044 01:02:25.519 --> 01:02:30.760 that modernity, even modern Christianity can't really account for and 1045 01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:34.519 so they're going from this very limited context. And of course, 1046 01:02:34.519 --> 01:02:38.559 for Lewis, I mean Hell is the most limited context 1047 01:02:38.559 --> 01:02:40.519 that you can have in the medieval worldview. I mean 1048 01:02:40.559 --> 01:02:42.559 this is at the center of the earth. Hell is, 1049 01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:45.039 and in Hell for Lewis go to the Great Divorce. 1050 01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:47.840 What you have is radical isolation. You have as small 1051 01:02:47.880 --> 01:02:50.280 of a context as you could possibly get. You know, 1052 01:02:50.360 --> 01:02:53.199 even the homes in Hell are nothing more than the 1053 01:02:53.199 --> 01:02:56.559 projection of the mind. They're not real. So everything is 1054 01:02:56.599 --> 01:03:00.480 confined down to the individual. You get hyper isolation. Whereas 1055 01:03:00.559 --> 01:03:04.000 as you move further up into deep heaven, you let 1056 01:03:04.119 --> 01:03:08.199 go of yourself. You learn not to consume, not to take, 1057 01:03:08.239 --> 01:03:13.239 but you learn to just receive, and in receiving, your 1058 01:03:13.280 --> 01:03:19.159 context broadens out, even as far as the context of God, 1059 01:03:19.559 --> 01:03:22.800 to the proportion that we're able to receive and be 1060 01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:25.880 glad receive the way that is sent to you receive 1061 01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:28.800 the pleasure as it comes, recognizing that it is not 1062 01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:33.559 your own. We see I think a lot of Boetheus 1063 01:03:33.639 --> 01:03:36.880 playing out here when we look at our relationship to fortune. 1064 01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:40.920 You know, Boethius really makes his point. Boethius himself being 1065 01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:42.719 somebody who's lived his life as far as at least 1066 01:03:42.719 --> 01:03:46.559 any external perspective goes according to virtue, according to reason. 1067 01:03:46.840 --> 01:03:49.039 He seemed to be a pretty good guy. But now 1068 01:03:49.039 --> 01:03:52.599 he finds himself in prison, with everything taken away and 1069 01:03:52.679 --> 01:03:55.360 awaiting his execution, as it will come to turn out. 1070 01:03:55.639 --> 01:03:59.039 And so he's meditating on his relationship to fortune. You know, 1071 01:03:59.079 --> 01:04:01.920 if I did everything right, why was everything taken away 1072 01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:04.480 from me? And what he comes to recognize is that 1073 01:04:04.960 --> 01:04:08.079 fortune is what it is, Lady. Fortune is blind for 1074 01:04:08.119 --> 01:04:12.239 a reason, and so from our perspective, we can't count 1075 01:04:12.239 --> 01:04:16.199 on anything in this moving world except for the stability 1076 01:04:16.280 --> 01:04:18.760 that stands at the back. And so what we can't 1077 01:04:18.760 --> 01:04:22.280 do is to rely on moving fortune. What we can do, however, 1078 01:04:22.719 --> 01:04:25.880 is anchor ourselves in the only stable thing. And as 1079 01:04:25.960 --> 01:04:28.480 Lewis says in The Great Divorce, heaven is what stands 1080 01:04:28.480 --> 01:04:30.960 when everything else is shaken, and so that is the 1081 01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:33.559 place where we can anchor ourselves. And when we anchor 1082 01:04:33.639 --> 01:04:36.360 ourselves there, then we're ready to receive whatever fortune comes 1083 01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:39.440 our way. And as Bowethia says, for the good man, 1084 01:04:39.880 --> 01:04:43.440 all fortune actually ends up being good fortune. You know, 1085 01:04:43.840 --> 01:04:46.880 maybe you know, maybe you win the lottery and money 1086 01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:48.639 falls into your hand. As long as you hold out 1087 01:04:48.679 --> 01:04:51.519 an open hand, well that's a good thing. Well maybe 1088 01:04:51.840 --> 01:04:53.920 someone robs your house and you lose everything that you have, 1089 01:04:54.679 --> 01:04:57.079 Well that's just going to further stabilize you in the 1090 01:04:57.079 --> 01:04:59.360 good if you are in fact a good man, and 1091 01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:01.960 say what we tend to see as good fortune bad fortune. 1092 01:05:01.960 --> 01:05:03.719 You know, you spin the wheel, you hit the million 1093 01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:05.840 dollar mark, or you go bankrupt. Either way, it's good 1094 01:05:05.880 --> 01:05:07.800 fortune for the good man. And I think that we 1095 01:05:07.800 --> 01:05:09.880 see a lot of that theme play out in Perilandra, 1096 01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:11.199 or even see some of that in Out of the 1097 01:05:11.199 --> 01:05:15.280 Side of the Planet. In his discussion with the the 1098 01:05:15.559 --> 01:05:18.280 the herosa about pleasure about how it's not something that 1099 01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:22.679 you hold onto, it's something that spreads out over eternity 1100 01:05:22.800 --> 01:05:25.719 when we are receiving it in the right way. And 1101 01:05:25.719 --> 01:05:26.960 so yeah, I think that we see a lot of 1102 01:05:27.039 --> 01:05:29.239 very important themes for Louis playing out there. And I 1103 01:05:29.239 --> 01:05:31.840 think that David, you probat lad that out more succinctly 1104 01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:34.159 and clearly than I did. And so I'm probably just 1105 01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:37.840 jabbering on like the young man right now, but yeah, 1106 01:05:37.920 --> 01:05:40.639 so very well said, uh, Chase, what do you have 1107 01:05:40.719 --> 01:05:41.360 for Perilandra? 1108 01:05:42.719 --> 01:05:46.920 So I love this book. I got a big quote here. 1109 01:05:47.159 --> 01:05:54.000 I really just enjoy ransom struggle with I guess it's 1110 01:05:54.079 --> 01:05:58.760 the vallible self, like his inner monologue, the fighting kind 1111 01:05:58.760 --> 01:06:02.920 of light confusion at why he should be there, why 1112 01:06:02.920 --> 01:06:05.320 does it have to be him? But the quote is 1113 01:06:05.559 --> 01:06:08.679 his mind darted hopefully down a side alley that seemed 1114 01:06:08.719 --> 01:06:13.960 to promise escape. Very well. Then he had been brought miraculously. 1115 01:06:14.519 --> 01:06:16.599 He was in God's hands as long as he did 1116 01:06:16.599 --> 01:06:19.639 his best, and he had done his best, God would 1117 01:06:19.679 --> 01:06:22.559 see to the final issue. He had not succeeded, but 1118 01:06:22.639 --> 01:06:25.920 he had done his best. No one could do more. 1119 01:06:26.199 --> 01:06:29.280 He must not be worried about the final result. Leildo 1120 01:06:29.639 --> 01:06:31.960 would see to that, and Meleelde would bring him back 1121 01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:36.800 to Earth efforts, very real, unsuccessful efforts. Probably Meleldale's real 1122 01:06:36.840 --> 01:06:39.360 intention was that he should publish to the human race 1123 01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:42.920 the truth he had learned on the planet Penis. As 1124 01:06:42.960 --> 01:06:45.880 for the fate of Venus, that could not really rest 1125 01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:48.960 upon his shoulders. It was in God's hands. One must 1126 01:06:49.039 --> 01:06:52.000 be content to leave it there. One must have faith. 1127 01:06:53.159 --> 01:06:57.599 It snapped like a violentistrey, and then it goes on 1128 01:06:57.599 --> 01:06:59.400 a little bit later. It says it was true that 1129 01:06:59.440 --> 01:07:01.880 if he left it undone Alotle to himself will do 1130 01:07:01.960 --> 01:07:05.599 some greater thing instead. In that sense, he stood for Malal, 1131 01:07:05.800 --> 01:07:07.880 but no more than Eve would have stood for him 1132 01:07:07.920 --> 01:07:11.360 by simply not the capital. And I think it just 1133 01:07:12.280 --> 01:07:16.760 speaks so much of like how we should be in 1134 01:07:16.800 --> 01:07:19.639 our own life in relation to God. We you know, 1135 01:07:19.679 --> 01:07:23.199 we're all faced with adversity or tough situations, and we 1136 01:07:25.480 --> 01:07:29.079 question why we're put put where we're put, but we 1137 01:07:29.159 --> 01:07:34.360 need to be able to like recognize that God put 1138 01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:38.320 that opportunity for action in front of us. I think 1139 01:07:38.320 --> 01:07:42.360 this goes especially with like sharing the gospel I've had 1140 01:07:42.400 --> 01:07:45.320 trouble for where you know you're thinking, man, why isn't 1141 01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:49.360 somebody that like actually can fully explain everything that needs 1142 01:07:49.400 --> 01:07:53.960 to be explained to this person when I know little 1143 01:07:54.000 --> 01:08:00.440 to nothing. But they're put in your path, and it's 1144 01:08:00.480 --> 01:08:03.199 wrong to think that you're not prepared because they could. 1145 01:08:03.599 --> 01:08:08.360 You're not the one doing it, you know, ultimately, And 1146 01:08:08.400 --> 01:08:12.960 this goes even further with you know, some situations are 1147 01:08:13.079 --> 01:08:15.880 not going to take just works. Like Ransom is not 1148 01:08:15.920 --> 01:08:19.039 a that violent guy. He doesn't want to fight the 1149 01:08:19.039 --> 01:08:21.199 young man. He wants to like just be able to 1150 01:08:21.239 --> 01:08:25.560 persuade her that that what the unman is saying is wrong. 1151 01:08:25.680 --> 01:08:29.399 It's evil, but it's not working, and it's finally going 1152 01:08:29.479 --> 01:08:32.920 to just take physical action and it does sometimes cause 1153 01:08:33.000 --> 01:08:36.800 that and that's something that hopefully we don't have to 1154 01:08:36.840 --> 01:08:39.079 face our lifetime, but who knows, and we just have 1155 01:08:39.199 --> 01:08:42.279 to be ready to fight evil to protect good. 1156 01:08:43.560 --> 01:08:45.920 Yeah. I think that's a good point. That one things 1157 01:08:45.920 --> 01:08:50.720 that we get from Perlandro is that words at best 1158 01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:55.560 are have to be expressions of concrete realities. By words alone, 1159 01:08:55.680 --> 01:08:57.399 I mean, they are instruments. And so I don't want 1160 01:08:57.399 --> 01:09:01.359 to downplay words and you know, use that really bad 1161 01:09:01.520 --> 01:09:04.600 adage that you know, you know, preach the gospel and 1162 01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:07.199 use words if necessary. Now that that's you need words, 1163 01:09:07.239 --> 01:09:09.720 and so that's not the point. But words themselves can't 1164 01:09:09.760 --> 01:09:11.680 stand on their own. They have to be expressions of 1165 01:09:11.720 --> 01:09:14.399 concrete realities. And I think that's what Lewis is giving 1166 01:09:14.439 --> 01:09:17.239 us through myth hear. I mean, I do agree that 1167 01:09:17.439 --> 01:09:20.840 even in the primary world, yeah, of course there is 1168 01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:24.359 a place for violence, but I don't think that's really what 1169 01:09:24.439 --> 01:09:26.479 Lewis is telling us. I think that what Lewis is 1170 01:09:26.520 --> 01:09:29.800 telling us is that concrete realities need to be met 1171 01:09:29.840 --> 01:09:34.560 with concrete realities. And in fact, back before they go 1172 01:09:34.600 --> 01:09:38.680 off to Venus, when Lewis is talking to Ransom and 1173 01:09:39.159 --> 01:09:41.920 he's a little thrown off by this whole ordeal, as 1174 01:09:42.079 --> 01:09:48.199 you would expect that he would be. Ransom quote scripture, 1175 01:09:48.359 --> 01:09:50.840 and you know, he talks about how we need to 1176 01:09:51.399 --> 01:09:54.560 you know, cast down powers in heavenly places, and he says, well, 1177 01:09:54.880 --> 01:09:58.199 maybe that's a little bit more literal than we once thought. 1178 01:09:58.960 --> 01:10:01.399 And so that's really what this story is. It's about 1179 01:10:01.439 --> 01:10:07.239 fighting the demonic with concrete realities. And there's really only 1180 01:10:07.279 --> 01:10:10.800 one time where Ransom really wins a debate with the 1181 01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:15.399 young man, and that's when Ransom is specifically falling into 1182 01:10:15.680 --> 01:10:18.920 or talking about the incarnation, which is obviously the most 1183 01:10:18.920 --> 01:10:21.359 concrete thing that we can talk about, and so that's 1184 01:10:21.359 --> 01:10:26.159 really the only point where he wins. And specifically, the 1185 01:10:26.199 --> 01:10:31.880 young man is talking about introducing death and Ransom says, well, 1186 01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:34.960 what about when meleel Dell experienced death? You know, how 1187 01:10:35.159 --> 01:10:37.359 did that go for you? Essentially, And that's really the 1188 01:10:37.640 --> 01:10:41.640 one point that Ransom gets on him. But other than that, yeah, 1189 01:10:41.680 --> 01:10:44.560 the young man just constantly out rhetorics him. And that's 1190 01:10:44.600 --> 01:10:48.560 because in the domain of abstractions. Dealing with abstractions, well, 1191 01:10:48.600 --> 01:10:50.880 the devil is probably gonna win at that. That's the 1192 01:10:50.880 --> 01:10:55.079 realm of sophistry. And it makes me think of screw Tape, which, 1193 01:10:55.119 --> 01:10:57.000 as we talked about in the class, at least at 1194 01:10:57.000 --> 01:11:00.000 one point Lewis's mind was part of the Ransom canon. 1195 01:11:01.399 --> 01:11:04.640 But I think it's the first letter of the Screwtape letters. 1196 01:11:05.079 --> 01:11:09.239 When Screwtape says to I always want to say warm 1197 01:11:09.279 --> 01:11:13.960 tongue Wormwood. He says to Wormwood, don't try to convince 1198 01:11:14.000 --> 01:11:18.000 your patient that materialism is true. Just convince them that 1199 01:11:18.039 --> 01:11:20.319 it's stunning and brave, all right, convince them that it's 1200 01:11:20.319 --> 01:11:24.000 courageous and it's progressive and it's forward thinking. And so 1201 01:11:24.039 --> 01:11:27.239 when we're just dealing in the realm of rhetoric, well, 1202 01:11:27.319 --> 01:11:29.359 the devil has the upper hand there because we're dealing 1203 01:11:29.399 --> 01:11:32.119 with abstractions. And that's just like it's it's winds. It's 1204 01:11:32.119 --> 01:11:36.000 easy to redirect. But it's concrete reality that is ultimately 1205 01:11:36.039 --> 01:11:40.199 going to win over the void. It's the word that 1206 01:11:40.319 --> 01:11:43.800 is going to bring form out of darkness, out of chaos. 1207 01:11:43.880 --> 01:11:48.359 And so you need substance to defeat empty vacuity, the 1208 01:11:48.880 --> 01:11:55.119 space which just as we get this inversion between you know, 1209 01:11:55.159 --> 01:11:57.199 what's at the center of the cosmos? Is it what 1210 01:11:57.239 --> 01:11:58.760 we call space? Is is it the Earth? 1211 01:11:59.039 --> 01:11:59.119 No? 1212 01:11:59.239 --> 01:12:05.479 I mean the real space is well, it's it's in 1213 01:12:05.479 --> 01:12:08.159 our hearts, it's it's in our minds. That's the space 1214 01:12:08.279 --> 01:12:11.359 that you know, western and divine even brought into the heavens. 1215 01:12:11.399 --> 01:12:15.399 That's the space that we now see on Perilandra, whereas 1216 01:12:15.560 --> 01:12:19.439 the heavens fill us with substance. Now there is at 1217 01:12:19.520 --> 01:12:22.279 least one more thing that I want to quote from Perilandra, 1218 01:12:22.359 --> 01:12:23.960 and then if anyone else will saying, think you can, 1219 01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:26.119 and then we'll move on. But one thing that we 1220 01:12:26.159 --> 01:12:29.279 see here is that Lewis is giving us something of 1221 01:12:29.560 --> 01:12:33.600 his own philosophy of earth like theology started to draw 1222 01:12:33.640 --> 01:12:38.680 the line sometimes of mythology. You know, obviously Lewis placed 1223 01:12:38.800 --> 01:12:42.000 he saw a lot of value in pagan mythology that 1224 01:12:42.319 --> 01:12:46.159 at least in where it did things correctly. It's expressing 1225 01:12:46.359 --> 01:12:51.520 real human desires, even real human knowledge of the divine. 1226 01:12:52.039 --> 01:12:56.920 And there's this great line where after Ransom has encountered 1227 01:12:57.399 --> 01:12:59.880 the true Mars and the true Venus, he said, or 1228 01:13:00.239 --> 01:13:04.039 Lewis says, our mythology is based on a solider reality 1229 01:13:04.039 --> 01:13:07.319 than we dream, but is also at an almost infinite 1230 01:13:07.319 --> 01:13:09.560 distance from that base. And when they told him this, 1231 01:13:09.880 --> 01:13:13.239 Rainsomott last understood why mythology was what it was, gleams 1232 01:13:13.239 --> 01:13:15.920 of celestial strength and beauty falling on a jungle of 1233 01:13:15.920 --> 01:13:19.600 filth and imbecility. I think that right there is such 1234 01:13:19.720 --> 01:13:23.359 a great line, and at least in my reckoning, it's 1235 01:13:23.359 --> 01:13:28.439 a good way to understand pagan mythology, that there is 1236 01:13:28.520 --> 01:13:31.680 a lot of good there, as you should expect, simply 1237 01:13:31.720 --> 01:13:35.640 because we're dealing with people made in God's image who 1238 01:13:36.039 --> 01:13:40.039 inescapably have knowledge of that reality, right, that's Romans one, 1239 01:13:40.239 --> 01:13:42.880 And so we see truth coming out here, but it's 1240 01:13:43.039 --> 01:13:46.000 caught up in a jungle of filth and imbecility. And 1241 01:13:46.079 --> 01:13:49.479 so what we're able to do here is to see 1242 01:13:49.600 --> 01:13:53.000 that real light, clear the jungle and bring it back 1243 01:13:53.039 --> 01:13:55.239 into its proper source. And in so doing, I think 1244 01:13:55.239 --> 01:13:57.960 that we can see something of real value. That's what 1245 01:13:58.000 --> 01:14:02.800 the Medievals essentially did with a lot of Roman mythology. 1246 01:14:02.960 --> 01:14:04.960 I mean the fact that even to this day we 1247 01:14:05.000 --> 01:14:07.760 still refer to the planets by Roman names. And there's 1248 01:14:07.760 --> 01:14:10.000 the reason why that carried through time that's because I 1249 01:14:10.000 --> 01:14:14.000 think that, you know, looking at classical mythology, we can 1250 01:14:14.039 --> 01:14:15.680 see things that are real and things that are true 1251 01:14:15.680 --> 01:14:17.920 that simply need to be brought into the right context. 1252 01:14:18.000 --> 01:14:19.760 And so I just I like, what LUs A doing there? 1253 01:14:20.960 --> 01:14:23.039 All right, Jordan, what did you want to say there? 1254 01:14:24.439 --> 01:14:27.279 So one other thing that that kind of came up was, 1255 01:14:27.399 --> 01:14:29.439 and you kind of touched on this a little bit, 1256 01:14:30.760 --> 01:14:35.439 was kind of how the incarnation is the is the 1257 01:14:35.479 --> 01:14:39.920 fundamental change in the universe. There's one comment in the 1258 01:14:39.960 --> 01:14:43.880 story about how Earth becomes the corner at which all 1259 01:14:43.920 --> 01:14:48.279 things change, and that's why the green Lady, aside from 1260 01:14:48.319 --> 01:14:52.119 her her shade, looks like a human being. That the 1261 01:14:52.119 --> 01:14:58.479 incarnation made a definite change to the whole universe, and 1262 01:14:58.520 --> 01:15:01.119 that that sort of builds on some that happens early 1263 01:15:01.159 --> 01:15:07.039 on in the story that when Weston first arrives, before 1264 01:15:07.079 --> 01:15:12.479 he invites tash Or the evil spirit, to take over 1265 01:15:12.560 --> 01:15:19.239 his body, Weston talks about his interest now in spreading spirituality, 1266 01:15:19.239 --> 01:15:21.319 which is a little bit of a change or maybe 1267 01:15:21.359 --> 01:15:23.760 just a development of what had happened in Out of 1268 01:15:23.760 --> 01:15:26.079 the Silent Planet, and then he goes on to talk 1269 01:15:26.079 --> 01:15:29.119 about how God is a spirit and that's why we 1270 01:15:29.560 --> 01:15:34.119 believe in him, and how he's also as that spirit 1271 01:15:34.119 --> 01:15:36.600 the guiding purpose of man. And he has this quote 1272 01:15:36.600 --> 01:15:38.880 that I think is really kind of interesting. He says, 1273 01:15:39.279 --> 01:15:46.239 pure spirit the final vortex of self thinking, self originating activity. 1274 01:15:46.720 --> 01:15:50.159 So it's this, it's this sort of self absorbed thing, 1275 01:15:50.319 --> 01:15:55.000 admittedly a self absorbed thing. But the counter to that, 1276 01:15:55.239 --> 01:15:58.439 of course, is that God is not just a spirit, 1277 01:15:58.920 --> 01:16:01.479 that he has taken on human flesh, that he has 1278 01:16:01.600 --> 01:16:05.399 become a man. And this is the scandal of the 1279 01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:11.520 particularity of the incarnation. That Christians don't just worship God 1280 01:16:11.560 --> 01:16:15.399 because he's a spirit. We worship God because he has 1281 01:16:15.439 --> 01:16:20.880 become man to redeem men. Weston's whole argument is sort 1282 01:16:20.920 --> 01:16:25.000 of a kind of Manicheanism or a sort of gnosticism 1283 01:16:26.000 --> 01:16:29.560 that just kind of floats in this ethereal spiritual realm 1284 01:16:29.920 --> 01:16:32.680 that doesn't really want to stick to anything in particular 1285 01:16:32.720 --> 01:16:34.840 because it wants to make whatever claim it wants to make. 1286 01:16:35.960 --> 01:16:39.840 But God has actually taken on human flesh and that 1287 01:16:40.159 --> 01:16:45.399 fundamentally changes absolutely everything, not just in the story but 1288 01:16:45.520 --> 01:16:48.119 also in our realm as well. 1289 01:16:49.920 --> 01:16:53.199 Yeah, that's definitely a very important point, and I do 1290 01:16:53.239 --> 01:16:56.640 think that's a great conversation before Weston goes full on 1291 01:16:56.760 --> 01:17:00.239 unman in that initial conversation, which is really more of 1292 01:17:00.239 --> 01:17:02.680 a monologue than the conversation that he has with Ransom, 1293 01:17:03.000 --> 01:17:06.199 and he keeps telling Ransom, you know, I believe in 1294 01:17:06.279 --> 01:17:08.119 essentially the same thing as you. I believe in the 1295 01:17:08.159 --> 01:17:09.840 Holy Spirit, even if you want to call it that. 1296 01:17:10.159 --> 01:17:12.600 And so he keeps trying to convince Ransom that they're 1297 01:17:12.640 --> 01:17:14.840 more or less saying the same thing, and Ransom has it, 1298 01:17:14.960 --> 01:17:19.720 keeps saying I don't think so. And this is very 1299 01:17:19.760 --> 01:17:25.760 often what happens when you see sometimes very profound shifts 1300 01:17:25.800 --> 01:17:30.720 in theology, but it gets couched in orthodox language. And 1301 01:17:30.760 --> 01:17:32.199 so I think that Lewis is doing a lot of 1302 01:17:32.199 --> 01:17:40.039 things very simultaneously here in exposing the modern Spirit. If 1303 01:17:40.039 --> 01:17:42.119 you're enjoying this conversation and you would like to go 1304 01:17:42.199 --> 01:17:44.800 further up and further in with the fiction and philosophy 1305 01:17:44.840 --> 01:17:46.640 of C. S. Lewis, then know that you can have 1306 01:17:46.680 --> 01:17:49.960 access to all the materials from the course, including thirty 1307 01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:53.840 seven course exclusive videos that cover almost all of Lewis's fiction, 1308 01:17:54.119 --> 01:17:57.520 including the Ransom series, Screwtape Letters Till We Have Faces, 1309 01:17:57.600 --> 01:17:59.960 the Great Divorce, and all of the Chronicles of Narnia. 1310 01:18:00.319 --> 01:18:02.439 You can go over to Andrew Snyder dot Patia dot 1311 01:18:02.439 --> 01:18:05.359 com to find the course as well as other course listings, 1312 01:18:05.720 --> 01:18:08.319 and from now until the end of September twenty twenty four, 1313 01:18:08.560 --> 01:18:11.520 you can use the code ransom for half off the 1314 01:18:11.520 --> 01:18:14.159 cost of this course. And once you've made the purchase, 1315 01:18:14.239 --> 01:18:17.000 the materials are yours to keep indefinitely. And so this 1316 01:18:17.119 --> 01:18:20.439 was originally a crand full twelve week course. But the 1317 01:18:20.479 --> 01:18:22.039 good news is that doing this on your own, you 1318 01:18:22.079 --> 01:18:24.359 can go at whatever pace works for you, and so 1319 01:18:24.479 --> 01:18:27.000 that is Andrew Snyder dot Patia dot com. Or you 1320 01:18:27.039 --> 01:18:28.720 can click the link in the show notes and use 1321 01:18:28.760 --> 01:18:31.439 that code ransom for half off the cost. But now 1322 01:18:31.560 --> 01:18:37.840 back to the show. All right, and Olivia, you said 1323 01:18:37.840 --> 01:18:39.520 you wanted to say something else about Peralandra. 1324 01:18:41.000 --> 01:18:43.279 Yes, I actually I had two things stored reminded me 1325 01:18:43.279 --> 01:18:45.199 of something else. The first I was just going to 1326 01:18:45.239 --> 01:18:47.640 point out that that and I had stepped out for 1327 01:18:47.680 --> 01:18:49.680 a minute there, so maybe someone else said this. I 1328 01:18:49.720 --> 01:18:53.880 apologize if this is redundant. But in that scene where 1329 01:18:55.119 --> 01:18:58.760 the Western's Space Show comes to Periland Drip, it says 1330 01:18:58.920 --> 01:19:02.079 something like a shooting star seemed to have streaked across 1331 01:19:02.119 --> 01:19:05.479 the sky far away on their left, and some seconds 1332 01:19:05.560 --> 01:19:09.000 later an indeterminate noise reached their ears. Then the Green 1333 01:19:09.079 --> 01:19:14.000 Lady says, something has fallen out of deep heaven, and 1334 01:19:14.119 --> 01:19:17.359 that is, you know, another biblical Easter egg, of course, 1335 01:19:17.399 --> 01:19:19.319 to where Jesus says, I think it's a luke ten 1336 01:19:19.960 --> 01:19:22.159 that you know. I was watching a satan fall from 1337 01:19:22.199 --> 01:19:26.000 heaven like lightning, which is itself a reference to I 1338 01:19:26.039 --> 01:19:31.319 forget if it's in the palms or the prophets, I forget. 1339 01:19:31.840 --> 01:19:35.479 And just now reading that again, I noticed that it 1340 01:19:35.560 --> 01:19:38.199 was on the left that he fell, which of course 1341 01:19:38.279 --> 01:19:43.880 is biblically significant. Jordan reminded me of one other thing too, 1342 01:19:44.119 --> 01:19:49.439 and it split my mind. No, I think about it again. So, 1343 01:19:49.560 --> 01:19:53.119 like the Green Lady, I talked about how the world is, 1344 01:19:53.239 --> 01:19:57.960 the whole cosmos is fundamentally changed since the inclination, and 1345 01:19:58.000 --> 01:20:00.399 it just shook me earlier today as I was kind 1346 01:20:00.399 --> 01:20:04.960 of refreshing myself and out of the silent planet. In 1347 01:20:05.000 --> 01:20:09.319 that world we have different now, different moral beings that 1348 01:20:09.359 --> 01:20:15.319 aren't human. Why they do not seem to have been 1349 01:20:15.359 --> 01:20:17.800 tempted in the same way as the Green Lady or 1350 01:20:17.880 --> 01:20:21.600 Adam and Eve maybe that's just not in the story 1351 01:20:21.600 --> 01:20:23.640 that we're given, but I just found that interesting. 1352 01:20:25.479 --> 01:20:27.600 Yeah, I mean, I think that part of the reason 1353 01:20:27.600 --> 01:20:30.199 why we don't see the same kind of temptation is that, yes, 1354 01:20:30.239 --> 01:20:34.840 they are now, but I mean also not humans per se, 1355 01:20:35.039 --> 01:20:38.000 and so I think that we should expect some more 1356 01:20:38.119 --> 01:20:43.960 obvious connection between our redemptive history or I guess our 1357 01:20:44.000 --> 01:20:46.520 fall and their potential fall, and that you know, they're 1358 01:20:46.520 --> 01:20:49.439 following the incarnation as stored inside, and so they are 1359 01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:52.560 I guess more human, But also I don't know, I mean, 1360 01:20:52.680 --> 01:20:58.199 maybe Malcandra had already gone through its probationary phase and 1361 01:20:58.239 --> 01:21:00.720 so we're just not given the same kind of patient there. Right, 1362 01:21:00.760 --> 01:21:03.319 maybe they've already entered into the glory of befitting of 1363 01:21:03.760 --> 01:21:06.880 them being a lower world than the newer Venus on 1364 01:21:07.000 --> 01:21:11.720 the side of the incarnation. Yeah, and so one. 1365 01:21:11.560 --> 01:21:15.520 Has really destroyed the Harndro as it, so he'd already 1366 01:21:15.560 --> 01:21:18.039 had an influence and maybe something happened and we just 1367 01:21:18.159 --> 01:21:19.079 aren't pretty. 1368 01:21:18.800 --> 01:21:25.640 Too Yeah, fair enough, no, no, fair enough? And yeah, 1369 01:21:25.880 --> 01:21:29.720 and so we do get those pretty clear biblical references 1370 01:21:29.800 --> 01:21:32.920 in Peralandrum and also, as we mentioned in Now the 1371 01:21:32.960 --> 01:21:34.600 Side of the Planet and I didn't mention in that 1372 01:21:34.640 --> 01:21:37.199 book or in our discussion of that book that I 1373 01:21:37.279 --> 01:21:39.439 just find it so strange. I don't know if this 1374 01:21:39.520 --> 01:21:42.159 is some commentarial and time that was written, but that 1375 01:21:42.239 --> 01:21:44.199 Lewis says that of the first I don't remember, it's 1376 01:21:44.239 --> 01:21:46.880 like sixty or something reviewers, so only two or three 1377 01:21:47.079 --> 01:21:50.239 caught that he was giving us a Christian story, which 1378 01:21:50.279 --> 01:21:54.000 just strikes me as odd. And so as much as 1379 01:21:54.000 --> 01:21:57.239 we tend to think that people today are biblically illiterate, 1380 01:21:57.439 --> 01:22:01.960 I guess it's not a super recent movement. And I 1381 01:22:02.000 --> 01:22:04.079 just find that interesting that Lewis seems to be pretty 1382 01:22:04.079 --> 01:22:07.479 explicit about this. But all right, so let's go ahead 1383 01:22:07.520 --> 01:22:11.239 and move into that Hideous strength. Let me throw it 1384 01:22:11.239 --> 01:22:13.000 out there. Anyone want to give a summary. 1385 01:22:13.760 --> 01:22:17.159 Got Catherine had something else to say about parlandra oh? 1386 01:22:17.199 --> 01:22:17.399 Did you? 1387 01:22:18.479 --> 01:22:18.600 Uh? 1388 01:22:19.640 --> 01:22:22.520 I can try and use that as a segue to 1389 01:22:22.600 --> 01:22:26.920 summarize to that hideous strength, because that's I think that 1390 01:22:27.039 --> 01:22:31.159 is honestly where I was going. Okay, So if we 1391 01:22:31.319 --> 01:22:34.680 follow the theme of the planets representing the genders and 1392 01:22:34.960 --> 01:22:39.960 the archetypes there, if Maleachandra is dying, right, we get 1393 01:22:39.960 --> 01:22:42.520 this story of a dying planet, and I was thinking 1394 01:22:42.560 --> 01:22:46.680 of the way that man's destiny is death, right, that's 1395 01:22:47.279 --> 01:22:50.680 all of the Hanal on the planet are aware of this. 1396 01:22:50.760 --> 01:22:53.479 They seem to have accepted that they are just the 1397 01:22:53.560 --> 01:22:56.319 last ones. They've seen others die, and they will ultimately 1398 01:22:56.359 --> 01:22:59.199 die as well, and that's the state of man that 1399 01:22:59.239 --> 01:23:03.479 we have to grapple with and accept for all. And 1400 01:23:03.520 --> 01:23:06.920 that also seems to tie in with the medieval theme, 1401 01:23:07.000 --> 01:23:11.720 with that portly imagery, right a night must willingly face death, 1402 01:23:11.840 --> 01:23:14.840 So it's playing on the two levels right of man, 1403 01:23:14.960 --> 01:23:19.960 everyone in man in particular, and then with Venus then 1404 01:23:20.039 --> 01:23:24.479 of course that novel is about rebirth, is about the 1405 01:23:24.479 --> 01:23:27.039 promise of a new life. So we know that we 1406 01:23:27.119 --> 01:23:30.399 face death, but because of the incarnation, as we've now 1407 01:23:30.439 --> 01:23:33.720 just talked about, we have the promise of eternal life 1408 01:23:33.720 --> 01:23:36.880 and there will be something beyond that. So there's promise 1409 01:23:36.920 --> 01:23:41.640 there for the purposes of our class. I loved that 1410 01:23:41.720 --> 01:23:45.800 we stopped and we read screwtape letters in between Parlandra 1411 01:23:46.199 --> 01:23:49.039 and that Hideous Strength, because it seemed like such a 1412 01:23:49.039 --> 01:23:53.119 great connection to show us the way that Earth is 1413 01:23:53.239 --> 01:23:58.039 tempted by or is covered by the bent oarsa. So 1414 01:23:58.840 --> 01:24:04.319 when we're trying to consider what our existence is like 1415 01:24:04.359 --> 01:24:08.039 as human beings. We have to remember that we will die, 1416 01:24:08.399 --> 01:24:11.680 but there is the promise of new life. So if 1417 01:24:11.680 --> 01:24:15.279 I can quickly some of that hideous strength, I think 1418 01:24:15.319 --> 01:24:18.039 this novel is a fantastic pairing to the other two. 1419 01:24:18.560 --> 01:24:22.039 But it is so strange because it doesn't start with 1420 01:24:22.800 --> 01:24:27.039 a journey out into space. So that hideous strength covers 1421 01:24:28.319 --> 01:24:31.479 a marriage. It covers a couple named Mark and Jane, 1422 01:24:31.520 --> 01:24:36.279 and it follows them on two different paths. Where Mark 1423 01:24:36.520 --> 01:24:43.880 is a fairly ambitious academic. He has ideas for a 1424 01:24:43.920 --> 01:24:46.640 great career. He's going to make something of himself. He 1425 01:24:46.640 --> 01:24:49.079 gets tumped it into a demonic situation at a house 1426 01:24:49.119 --> 01:24:55.239 called Belbury, whereas his wife Jane is brought into a 1427 01:24:55.560 --> 01:24:59.399 more angelic or a beatific vision of life at a 1428 01:24:59.520 --> 01:25:00.319 house called St. 1429 01:25:00.359 --> 01:25:00.800 Anne's. 1430 01:25:01.359 --> 01:25:04.800 And while the novel seems to be very dull at first, 1431 01:25:05.279 --> 01:25:08.000 I think that Lewis very deliberately wants us to see 1432 01:25:08.520 --> 01:25:13.479 the dullness of life in this bent world, that if 1433 01:25:13.520 --> 01:25:17.199 you are only focused on ambition or career, you are 1434 01:25:17.239 --> 01:25:19.279 not going to be terribly happy, and you are going 1435 01:25:19.319 --> 01:25:21.560 to have an unhappy marriage. The way that Mark and 1436 01:25:21.680 --> 01:25:24.279 Jane do. And so then over the course of the novel, 1437 01:25:24.359 --> 01:25:29.239 throughout a myriad of mystical events, we start to see 1438 01:25:29.279 --> 01:25:32.119 the way that Mark was deceived. He is able to 1439 01:25:32.119 --> 01:25:35.560 come out of that and come back towards the beatific Vision, 1440 01:25:35.960 --> 01:25:38.760 and Jane is able to really fully embrace her own 1441 01:25:38.800 --> 01:25:42.640 self and her calling and join the beatific vision. Together 1442 01:25:43.079 --> 01:25:45.439 we are able to I don't know if we are 1443 01:25:45.479 --> 01:25:48.279 freeing the world from the spell of the Bent or Yarsa, 1444 01:25:48.399 --> 01:25:50.239 but we are doing a little bit for our own 1445 01:25:50.239 --> 01:25:52.720 little center of the world, for our own little place 1446 01:25:52.720 --> 01:25:57.000 in low grace the medieval term for Arthur's court. And 1447 01:25:57.279 --> 01:25:59.319 maybe that's all that we can do, is try to 1448 01:25:59.359 --> 01:26:01.840 be a little piece of Christendom wherever. 1449 01:26:01.560 --> 01:26:01.920 We are. 1450 01:26:03.560 --> 01:26:05.680 Good. Well done. That Hideous Strength is not an easy 1451 01:26:05.680 --> 01:26:10.760 book to summarize. So well done, and that's anyone who's 1452 01:26:10.760 --> 01:26:13.399 read these books knows that That Hideous Strength is a very 1453 01:26:13.439 --> 01:26:16.199 different book than the first two. And it can be 1454 01:26:16.239 --> 01:26:18.319 a little jarring at first, because one thing, you don't 1455 01:26:18.359 --> 01:26:20.560 start with Ransom, and that can be a little bit 1456 01:26:20.560 --> 01:26:22.359 off putting. This is somebody that you traveled with for 1457 01:26:22.439 --> 01:26:24.439 the first couple of books, and then he's just not 1458 01:26:24.560 --> 01:26:27.560 there until about halfway through. It's a lot more meandering, 1459 01:26:27.600 --> 01:26:30.199 a lot more sprawling. You know, in the other books, 1460 01:26:30.359 --> 01:26:34.479 you're really following one person and his various engagements in 1461 01:26:34.600 --> 01:26:37.079 his journey, whereas now it's just sort of all over 1462 01:26:37.159 --> 01:26:40.000 the place, even though centering around Market and Jane. But 1463 01:26:41.079 --> 01:26:43.720 that's also exactly what we should expect for his story 1464 01:26:43.760 --> 01:26:47.399 in the Silent Planet. This is a story that is disordered. 1465 01:26:47.439 --> 01:26:48.000 At first. 1466 01:26:48.560 --> 01:26:51.319 Things are falling apart. Things are already falling apart where 1467 01:26:51.359 --> 01:26:54.359 we start. We start off with Mark and Jane's dysfunctional 1468 01:26:54.520 --> 01:26:58.000 cold marriage as they're increasingly moving further and further away 1469 01:26:58.000 --> 01:26:59.920 from each other. And so really what we get here 1470 01:27:00.399 --> 01:27:05.039 is analogous to the disorder of Mars and Venus a 1471 01:27:05.119 --> 01:27:08.399 Paralandra in Malacandrum. And so I've even seen some people 1472 01:27:08.399 --> 01:27:09.920 say that you can read this book on his own, 1473 01:27:09.960 --> 01:27:12.079 separate from the series, and I guess you can, but 1474 01:27:12.359 --> 01:27:15.039 you're not going to understand what Lewis is actually doing 1475 01:27:15.079 --> 01:27:17.960 here on the most significant level. It'll come across as 1476 01:27:17.960 --> 01:27:21.359 just some kind of like supernatural crime thriller or something 1477 01:27:21.840 --> 01:27:23.880 which is not what it is. And so it's very 1478 01:27:23.920 --> 01:27:27.359 much tied to Malacantra, it's tied to Parlandrum, and so 1479 01:27:27.840 --> 01:27:32.039 what we get here is disorder that continues to get 1480 01:27:32.199 --> 01:27:35.159 increasingly disordered until the end, where now we're brought back 1481 01:27:35.159 --> 01:27:38.439 into order, where Mars and Venus become properly related, where 1482 01:27:38.520 --> 01:27:44.479 Mark and Jane reunite in this Paralandrian influence. And so, 1483 01:27:45.119 --> 01:27:47.680 you know, a let's just say that the sprawling, kind 1484 01:27:47.720 --> 01:27:50.439 of different nature of this book is exactly what should 1485 01:27:50.479 --> 01:27:53.640 expect for a book on Earth, given the mythos that 1486 01:27:53.720 --> 01:27:57.640 Lewis is giving us. All Right, so let's go around 1487 01:27:57.760 --> 01:28:01.520 the room here and tell me just something that stands 1488 01:28:01.520 --> 01:28:02.399 out to you from this book. 1489 01:28:03.199 --> 01:28:07.800 Jordan, I'm going to carry the dominion theme through to 1490 01:28:07.920 --> 01:28:11.840 this one too, that there seems to be a struggle 1491 01:28:11.880 --> 01:28:15.279 for who's really in control. Is it the powers of 1492 01:28:15.359 --> 01:28:20.439 darkness or is it the powers that are surrounded with 1493 01:28:20.439 --> 01:28:25.159 with with what is good, true and beautiful. One of 1494 01:28:25.199 --> 01:28:29.439 the things that kind of encapsulates that that struggle for 1495 01:28:29.520 --> 01:28:35.800 me is in in in Mark sort of descending into 1496 01:28:35.840 --> 01:28:40.479 that evil. There's this conversation that he has with very 1497 01:28:40.479 --> 01:28:46.079 Hardcastle where she says that they really need to get 1498 01:28:46.119 --> 01:28:48.960 on with their work, they need to have a drink. 1499 01:28:49.359 --> 01:28:52.239 There's it seems like there's a lot more drinking that 1500 01:28:52.359 --> 01:28:57.880 the sort of anesthetizes his descent. He doesn't really maybe 1501 01:28:58.039 --> 01:29:02.600 necessarily notice what's going on. And then I'm going to 1502 01:29:02.680 --> 01:29:04.319 read a little bit of a long quote here, so 1503 01:29:04.640 --> 01:29:07.880 bear with me. This was the first thing Mark had 1504 01:29:07.920 --> 01:29:11.159 been asked to do, which he himself, before he did 1505 01:29:11.239 --> 01:29:15.720 it clearly knew to be criminal. But the moment of 1506 01:29:15.800 --> 01:29:21.079 his consent almost escaped his notice. Certainly there was no struggle, 1507 01:29:21.399 --> 01:29:24.680 no sense of turning a corner. There may have been 1508 01:29:24.720 --> 01:29:27.760 a time in the world's history when such moments fully 1509 01:29:27.840 --> 01:29:33.239 revealed their gravity, with witches prophesying on a blasted heath, 1510 01:29:33.680 --> 01:29:37.600 or visible rubicons to be crossed. But for him it 1511 01:29:37.680 --> 01:29:41.439 all slipped past in a chatter of laughter, of that 1512 01:29:42.039 --> 01:29:46.960 intimate laughter between fellow professionals, which of all earthly powers 1513 01:29:47.560 --> 01:29:51.000 is strongest to make men do very bad things before 1514 01:29:51.039 --> 01:29:55.399 they are yet individually very bad men. A few moments later, 1515 01:29:55.800 --> 01:30:00.119 he was trotting upstairs with the fairy that the the 1516 01:30:00.199 --> 01:30:05.439 descent into evil really is a broad path, that the 1517 01:30:05.840 --> 01:30:09.399 way to destruction is broad, and it's a gentle path 1518 01:30:10.279 --> 01:30:15.239 without sign posts. You just don't see it coming before. 1519 01:30:15.479 --> 01:30:19.840 It's just too late. And I think that's ultimately the 1520 01:30:19.920 --> 01:30:24.640 warning that Lewis is giving across this series. I think 1521 01:30:24.680 --> 01:30:27.079 this is the point that he's been aiming at all along, 1522 01:30:27.199 --> 01:30:31.920 by sort of equipping Ransom for this battle and then 1523 01:30:32.000 --> 01:30:36.399 sort of equipping us then for our struggle with the 1524 01:30:36.439 --> 01:30:40.079 powers of darkness in our own world too. 1525 01:30:42.039 --> 01:30:45.159 Yeah, And to go off that dominion theme, we see 1526 01:30:45.159 --> 01:30:48.520 that Mark Stutick is looking for He's pursuing dominion in 1527 01:30:48.560 --> 01:30:54.079 all the wrong ways in that you know, he's pursuing significance, 1528 01:30:54.119 --> 01:30:56.720 He's pursuing control. He wants to be in the seat 1529 01:30:56.760 --> 01:30:58.479 of power. He wants to be in the inner ring. 1530 01:30:59.439 --> 01:31:02.680 But of course, as he increasingly pursues this inner ring 1531 01:31:02.760 --> 01:31:04.439 goes further and further. You know, he starts off with 1532 01:31:04.479 --> 01:31:07.800 the progressive element at Edgeto at his university, and then 1533 01:31:07.800 --> 01:31:11.199 that feeds into the nice and eventually he finds his 1534 01:31:11.239 --> 01:31:15.800 way literally to the head. But then of course, at 1535 01:31:15.960 --> 01:31:20.079 the top tier of the nice we get people like 1536 01:31:20.960 --> 01:31:25.960 Whither and Frost giving us images of Dante's version of Hell, 1537 01:31:26.079 --> 01:31:29.119 which is frozen over. And so he thinks that he's moving, 1538 01:31:29.399 --> 01:31:31.039 you know, further up and further in he thinks he's 1539 01:31:31.079 --> 01:31:33.920 moving to the seat of power where things are really happening. 1540 01:31:34.199 --> 01:31:37.520 He wants to be in that seat of that hideous strength, 1541 01:31:37.520 --> 01:31:39.359 as Ransom calls it, hence the title of the book. 1542 01:31:40.119 --> 01:31:42.560 But he finds out that he's not actually moving up 1543 01:31:42.560 --> 01:31:46.920 at all. He's moving further and further down. To one sense, 1544 01:31:47.000 --> 01:31:49.239 is the center right in the center of Earth as 1545 01:31:49.279 --> 01:31:52.159 hell in the medieval cosmos, and that is the inner 1546 01:31:52.239 --> 01:31:57.279 ring that he actually ends up discovering. And you know, 1547 01:31:57.319 --> 01:31:59.399 like you said, there's a lot of drinking involved, a 1548 01:31:59.399 --> 01:32:05.800 lot of full delusion involved, and there's this this constant 1549 01:32:05.960 --> 01:32:08.600 pressure on him to bring Jane into the mix, because 1550 01:32:08.720 --> 01:32:11.039 I mean, she can, she has this vision and whatnot, 1551 01:32:11.079 --> 01:32:12.479 and I don't know if we need to get into 1552 01:32:12.479 --> 01:32:14.119 that for this conversation or not. If someone wants to, 1553 01:32:14.159 --> 01:32:17.960 we can, but they want Jane there, and he's resistant 1554 01:32:17.960 --> 01:32:20.439 to that, not even so much for the most part, 1555 01:32:20.520 --> 01:32:22.840 out of a desire to protect her, although some of 1556 01:32:22.880 --> 01:32:26.319 that is there in greater or lesser degrees, but for 1557 01:32:26.359 --> 01:32:28.399 the most part, he's afraid to bring her there because 1558 01:32:29.079 --> 01:32:31.319 that's going to her presence, is going to demonstrate the 1559 01:32:31.319 --> 01:32:33.840 fact that this is all a delusion, a wilful delusion. 1560 01:32:33.920 --> 01:32:36.840 It's not real. He knows he can't explain what's happening 1561 01:32:36.920 --> 01:32:39.439 to her because there's no explanation for it, and so 1562 01:32:39.439 --> 01:32:41.920 he's very much engaging in a wilful delusion in order 1563 01:32:41.960 --> 01:32:46.920 to be there. All right, David, what do you have 1564 01:32:47.000 --> 01:32:47.319 for us? 1565 01:32:48.800 --> 01:32:53.600 I really I love the almost yin and yang parallel 1566 01:32:53.640 --> 01:32:56.920 between Mark's story and Jane's story, because you know, Mark 1567 01:32:57.119 --> 01:33:01.239 is he's being lured down into the darkness by people 1568 01:33:01.279 --> 01:33:05.359 who are using his desire to belong and have value 1569 01:33:05.479 --> 01:33:10.600 to manipulate him into doing evil things. And Jane, on 1570 01:33:10.640 --> 01:33:12.560 the other hand, is kind of being pulled up against 1571 01:33:12.640 --> 01:33:16.560 her will, her will into a genuine community of people 1572 01:33:16.560 --> 01:33:21.079 who love each other in spite of her desire to 1573 01:33:21.279 --> 01:33:25.199 be seen as this independent, modern woman who doesn't fit 1574 01:33:25.319 --> 01:33:29.800 all the traditional roles that she feels like are being 1575 01:33:29.840 --> 01:33:35.000 forced upon her, and she's constantly frustrated when her femininity 1576 01:33:36.680 --> 01:33:40.119 reveals itself in spite of her attempts to suppress it. 1577 01:33:40.520 --> 01:33:45.279 I think so, I don't know, when I first read 1578 01:33:45.279 --> 01:33:48.239 this book years ago, all that was completely lost on me. 1579 01:33:48.279 --> 01:33:51.960 And I feel like, because we've all been talking about 1580 01:33:51.960 --> 01:33:55.800 these aspects of the story, and not the kind of crazy, 1581 01:33:55.880 --> 01:34:01.119 absurd fantasy and sci fi event that all of this 1582 01:34:01.279 --> 01:34:04.319 takes place inside of. In the story, it's really just 1583 01:34:04.399 --> 01:34:10.640 kind of the framework for this relationship between this man 1584 01:34:10.720 --> 01:34:15.760 and woman who they don't understand who they are as 1585 01:34:15.840 --> 01:34:21.159 husband and wife in the beginning, and as they are 1586 01:34:21.319 --> 01:34:24.800 separated from each other, they begin to understand who the 1587 01:34:24.840 --> 01:34:28.239 other one is and who they really are, so that 1588 01:34:28.359 --> 01:34:31.079 all of that can work out. And I find that fascinating. So, yeah, 1589 01:34:31.119 --> 01:34:33.840 I haven't talked about a bear. Nobody's talked about the bear. 1590 01:34:33.880 --> 01:34:37.560 Nobody's talked about Merlin really and all that part of 1591 01:34:37.600 --> 01:34:41.439 the story is great, but I feel like the relationship 1592 01:34:41.479 --> 01:34:43.560 aspects of it are really the heart of what's in 1593 01:34:43.560 --> 01:34:46.039 the story. 1594 01:34:47.039 --> 01:34:49.680 Yeah, and that's one reason why I don't even really 1595 01:34:50.239 --> 01:34:53.479 class the series as sci fi. It has some trappings 1596 01:34:53.479 --> 01:34:56.920 of sci fi, that's not really what it is. It's 1597 01:34:57.920 --> 01:35:00.720 more of I think i'd rather categor the whole series 1598 01:35:00.760 --> 01:35:05.039 is something like a cosmic romance, you know, in the 1599 01:35:05.039 --> 01:35:08.439 classical sense of romance. I don't mean like the cheap 1600 01:35:08.439 --> 01:35:13.359 books in the front of the bookstore. And yeah, actually 1601 01:35:13.359 --> 01:35:14.840 I don't only think I really need anything to that 1602 01:35:15.119 --> 01:35:17.680 well said, all right, Catherine, what do you have? 1603 01:35:20.239 --> 01:35:23.399 Let's see, I would totally echo everything that David just 1604 01:35:23.479 --> 01:35:25.720 said there. I think one of the things that really 1605 01:35:25.760 --> 01:35:30.880 grips you about that hideous drenth is that it is 1606 01:35:30.920 --> 01:35:34.520 it's Lewis working out this relationship between genders as he 1607 01:35:34.640 --> 01:35:38.640 has been in order to make that bigger point that 1608 01:35:39.159 --> 01:35:43.159 all of humanity is, in relation to God, is ultimately 1609 01:35:43.279 --> 01:35:44.000 sort of feminine. 1610 01:35:44.119 --> 01:35:44.279 Right. 1611 01:35:44.359 --> 01:35:47.760 He says that there is that Ransom says that there 1612 01:35:47.800 --> 01:35:50.600 is that which is masculine, which is so much greater 1613 01:35:50.680 --> 01:35:52.800 than all of us, that in relationship to it, we 1614 01:35:52.840 --> 01:35:56.159 are all feminine. So it seems like he is working 1615 01:35:56.239 --> 01:36:01.399 out this idea, this philosophical or theological idea that if 1616 01:36:01.439 --> 01:36:03.880 I'm to figure out how to relate to the masculine, 1617 01:36:04.279 --> 01:36:06.600 I have to know the feminine, right we sort of 1618 01:36:06.640 --> 01:36:11.680 we have to know both. And the scene that always 1619 01:36:11.720 --> 01:36:13.920 sticks in my mind here, the thing that I think 1620 01:36:14.039 --> 01:36:16.479 is the most vivid, is right after Jane had that 1621 01:36:16.520 --> 01:36:21.199 first interview with Ransom, and she's left Saint Anne, She's 1622 01:36:21.239 --> 01:36:25.199 going back to the village. She doesn't know what is 1623 01:36:25.239 --> 01:36:28.399 waiting her for her at the end of it, but 1624 01:36:28.560 --> 01:36:30.960 she's had that conversation with him, and it is so 1625 01:36:31.159 --> 01:36:36.640 transformative that she doesn't notice how much she has changed, 1626 01:36:36.760 --> 01:36:39.680 but other people do. And there's that line about how 1627 01:36:39.720 --> 01:36:43.600 her beauty now comes through in the much stronger and 1628 01:36:43.640 --> 01:36:47.720 more pure way, and she's able to be beautiful for 1629 01:36:47.760 --> 01:36:50.319 the sake of pleasing others or being pleasing to the 1630 01:36:50.319 --> 01:36:54.079 world around her. Right, she doesn't see it, and she's 1631 01:36:54.119 --> 01:36:57.159 now in a place where she doesn't have to feel 1632 01:36:57.239 --> 01:37:00.319 vain about it, she doesn't feel sub conscious about it, 1633 01:37:00.000 --> 01:37:02.640 and she sort of sees the way that her beauty 1634 01:37:03.159 --> 01:37:06.760 is then properly ordered and it is there to give 1635 01:37:06.880 --> 01:37:11.439 joy and happiness to others. And yeah, if that's one 1636 01:37:11.479 --> 01:37:13.960 thing that you can take out of reading this story, 1637 01:37:14.000 --> 01:37:15.159 that's a pretty major thing. 1638 01:37:17.560 --> 01:37:20.840 Yeah, that whole scene and the one preceding it is 1639 01:37:20.920 --> 01:37:25.159 certainly profound. When she comes in contact with Ransom for 1640 01:37:25.199 --> 01:37:28.439 the first time, and she is just overwhelmed by his presence. 1641 01:37:28.680 --> 01:37:31.640 Just by being in his presence, she overwhelmed with images 1642 01:37:31.720 --> 01:37:36.119 of kingship and priesthood and warrior kind of all these 1643 01:37:36.199 --> 01:37:40.600 different really masculine influences, and she's just overwhelmed. And you know, 1644 01:37:40.680 --> 01:37:43.079 for a time she can't even speak, and you know 1645 01:37:43.119 --> 01:37:47.279 eventually she does, and then toward the end of that conversation, 1646 01:37:47.439 --> 01:37:51.880 she starts to feel this overwhelming sense of largeness and 1647 01:37:52.359 --> 01:37:55.680 she starts to just become undone, and she kind of 1648 01:37:55.680 --> 01:37:58.720 glances at Ransom, like, you know, throw me a lifeline here, 1649 01:37:58.760 --> 01:38:01.119 save me. I'm about to be undone, and he pretty 1650 01:38:01.159 --> 01:38:02.880 much says, yeah, i'd be best for you to leave 1651 01:38:02.960 --> 01:38:05.520 right now. And so then she leaves and gets on 1652 01:38:05.560 --> 01:38:08.359 this train and has the reflections that you mentioned, and 1653 01:38:08.800 --> 01:38:13.800 that train ride reflection on what she's experienced very much 1654 01:38:13.840 --> 01:38:19.399 echoes Ransom's experience when he first enters the heavens, which 1655 01:38:19.439 --> 01:38:22.039 I read earlier from out of the Silent Planet, where 1656 01:38:22.079 --> 01:38:27.399 he is just receiving these penetrating, cosmic, heavenly rays of 1657 01:38:27.479 --> 01:38:30.640 light and they are just filling him with a sense 1658 01:38:30.680 --> 01:38:34.039 of substance. He's starting to learn what he is for 1659 01:38:34.239 --> 01:38:37.800 kind of where everything is directed. And Jane now has 1660 01:38:37.840 --> 01:38:40.119 a very very similar experience. I think that Lewis is 1661 01:38:40.159 --> 01:38:44.680 intentionally paralleling these experiences because now she has experienced the 1662 01:38:44.760 --> 01:38:48.840 light of the heavens through Ransom, this priest king who 1663 01:38:48.880 --> 01:38:53.119 is meditating or not meditating, he's mediating the glory, the 1664 01:38:53.159 --> 01:38:55.800 substance of the heavens through his person. She is now 1665 01:38:55.840 --> 01:38:58.279 receiving that through contact with him, and so now she 1666 01:38:58.279 --> 01:39:00.479 has a very similar experience just by the fact that 1667 01:39:00.479 --> 01:39:02.680 she is on Earth. And that speaks, I think, to 1668 01:39:02.840 --> 01:39:06.640 Ransom's role here in serving as a bridge playing a 1669 01:39:06.960 --> 01:39:10.520 part in the redemption of Earth, at least the part 1670 01:39:10.560 --> 01:39:13.000 that he has to play in that. And so yeah, 1671 01:39:13.039 --> 01:39:16.079 I think that train sequence is just this great scene 1672 01:39:16.079 --> 01:39:21.239 where she's starting to experience beauty, her own beauty as 1673 01:39:21.279 --> 01:39:23.880 well as the beauty that is beyond her, which is 1674 01:39:23.920 --> 01:39:25.960 what contextualizes her beauty. And so she just wants to 1675 01:39:26.039 --> 01:39:29.079 go listen to music and read good books and she 1676 01:39:29.199 --> 01:39:32.720 just swept up in the beauty of beauty as she 1677 01:39:32.760 --> 01:39:36.439 becomes better aligned with the Parallandrian ideal that she is 1678 01:39:36.479 --> 01:39:41.760 going to be aligned with. Olivia, what do you have 1679 01:39:41.840 --> 01:39:43.159 for us? 1680 01:39:44.279 --> 01:39:46.600 This is the book that I feel like least prepared 1681 01:39:46.600 --> 01:39:49.479 to discuss, just because there's so much going on. It's 1682 01:39:49.479 --> 01:39:54.000 starting to know where to begin. Like others I mentioned, 1683 01:39:54.039 --> 01:39:59.479 it's a really interesting portrayal of the banality of evil, 1684 01:40:00.159 --> 01:40:04.439 just how you kind of lip and down that sloping road. 1685 01:40:04.520 --> 01:40:07.520 And there's a parallel quote to that in the Securer 1686 01:40:07.560 --> 01:40:11.000 Tay that I can't remember at the moment, but there's 1687 01:40:11.039 --> 01:40:15.439 a lot of parallels there. I find it interesting that 1688 01:40:16.560 --> 01:40:20.720 the book really follows kind of the same trajectory as Weston, 1689 01:40:22.960 --> 01:40:27.600 where Weston he starts off as this materialist, but then 1690 01:40:27.680 --> 01:40:32.039 in Perlandra has that character development where he becomes you know, 1691 01:40:33.359 --> 01:40:38.800 he's into this like depraved form of spirituality, which echoes 1692 01:40:39.359 --> 01:40:42.680 you know, a lot in this book because you know, 1693 01:40:42.720 --> 01:40:45.520 at first the characters that we see and like the 1694 01:40:45.520 --> 01:40:48.680 initial entering are very materialist, but then as we get 1695 01:40:48.680 --> 01:40:52.479 into like the actual entering, and then we start to 1696 01:40:52.520 --> 01:40:56.960 see you know, the Macroves and the demonic. But despite 1697 01:40:57.000 --> 01:40:59.760 the parallels with Weston there, it's Divine who is one 1698 01:40:59.760 --> 01:41:01.520 of the who shows up in this book, which I 1699 01:41:01.560 --> 01:41:06.159 find interesting and at first, like the first couple of 1700 01:41:06.199 --> 01:41:10.600 times reading this book, I felt like there was kind 1701 01:41:10.600 --> 01:41:15.159 of a, I don't know, a dis jointedness in Divine's 1702 01:41:15.319 --> 01:41:19.039 character between Out of the Silent Planet and this book, 1703 01:41:19.279 --> 01:41:22.479 because in the first book he's portrayed is just being 1704 01:41:22.600 --> 01:41:27.479 this he's just self absorber, reading he wants the gold, 1705 01:41:29.479 --> 01:41:34.920 you know, very different from Weston, who, as eli Ursa says, 1706 01:41:35.039 --> 01:41:38.439 is you know, he is seeking something outside of himself. 1707 01:41:38.479 --> 01:41:40.439 It's not a good thing, but he's looking outside of 1708 01:41:40.520 --> 01:41:43.359 himself or its west, whereas divine is just you know, 1709 01:41:43.439 --> 01:41:48.079 looking into himself. But un for the reflectionery, I think 1710 01:41:48.079 --> 01:41:52.239 that does track because even the most self absorbed people 1711 01:41:54.600 --> 01:41:58.359 can be, you know, that stepping stone for evil to 1712 01:41:58.439 --> 01:42:02.680 advance further. And I'm more than that. Even just you know, 1713 01:42:02.840 --> 01:42:08.800 the average joe doing that thing is the pathway that 1714 01:42:08.880 --> 01:42:14.279 you evil takes to advance. I feel like I had 1715 01:42:14.359 --> 01:42:20.560 more on that topic that's elluded me. One interesting sort 1716 01:42:20.600 --> 01:42:26.439 of side plot, like a peripheral thread in the book 1717 01:42:28.119 --> 01:42:31.279 is the allusions to the moon, which we've talked about 1718 01:42:31.279 --> 01:42:33.880 in our previous chats. In the course how you wish 1719 01:42:33.960 --> 01:42:36.760 Lewis Head you really developed that further, maybe a short 1720 01:42:36.760 --> 01:42:39.239 story or something. But even what we do get in 1721 01:42:39.239 --> 01:42:43.640 the book is really interesting and it's really kind of 1722 01:42:43.680 --> 01:42:47.319 tangential to the main plot, but you catch echoes of 1723 01:42:47.359 --> 01:42:51.640 what's going on in the story. So he plays on 1724 01:42:52.000 --> 01:42:55.760 the medieval idea that with the close side of the moon, 1725 01:42:55.920 --> 01:42:59.239 you're the side that we see was corrupted when the 1726 01:42:59.239 --> 01:43:02.760 fall of man and has fallen into decay. Well, the 1727 01:43:02.800 --> 01:43:08.199 fire side, you know, is sort of untouched bison, and 1728 01:43:08.359 --> 01:43:10.520 is you know, in the glory is the rest of 1729 01:43:10.560 --> 01:43:15.520 the heavens. You may get that scene with Philistrato where 1730 01:43:15.520 --> 01:43:17.920 he opens the curtains lets the moon light in, and 1731 01:43:18.119 --> 01:43:22.119 he talks about how clean the near side of the 1732 01:43:22.119 --> 01:43:25.279 moon is and how the fireside, which is your fertile 1733 01:43:25.279 --> 01:43:30.199 it has dirt and life and death on it, and 1734 01:43:30.239 --> 01:43:35.439 he wants to sort of clean up those dirty patches 1735 01:43:35.479 --> 01:43:39.279 on the fire side of the moon. And Ransom gives 1736 01:43:39.279 --> 01:43:41.800 a really interesting description of it, which I'll read here. 1737 01:43:42.479 --> 01:43:45.720 When he's talking to Merlin. One of the questions Merlin 1738 01:43:45.800 --> 01:43:49.840 asks is who was called who is called Solva? What 1739 01:43:50.079 --> 01:43:53.039 road does she walk? Why is the womb barren on 1740 01:43:53.039 --> 01:43:58.840 one side? Where are the cold marriages? Ransom replied, Solva? 1741 01:43:58.960 --> 01:44:02.399 Is she who more turtles call the moon? She walks 1742 01:44:02.399 --> 01:44:05.359 in the lowest sphere. The rim of the world that 1743 01:44:05.520 --> 01:44:08.960 was wasted goes through her. Half of her orb is 1744 01:44:09.000 --> 01:44:13.239 turned towards us and shares our curse. Her other half 1745 01:44:13.279 --> 01:44:16.960 looks to deep heaven. Happy would he be? Who could 1746 01:44:16.960 --> 01:44:21.720 cross that frontier and see the fields on her further side? 1747 01:44:22.039 --> 01:44:25.239 On this side, the womb is barren, and the marriage 1748 01:44:25.279 --> 01:44:30.319 is cold. There, dwell and accursed people full of pride 1749 01:44:30.359 --> 01:44:34.079 and lust. There, when a young man takes a maiden 1750 01:44:34.119 --> 01:44:38.439 in marriage, they do not lie together, but each lies 1751 01:44:38.520 --> 01:44:41.840 with a cunningly fashioned image of the others, made to 1752 01:44:41.960 --> 01:44:45.680 move and to be warm by devilish arts. For real 1753 01:44:45.800 --> 01:44:50.359 flesh will not please them. They are so dainty delicti 1754 01:44:50.800 --> 01:44:54.960 in their dreams of lust. Their real children they fabricate 1755 01:44:55.039 --> 01:45:00.319 by vile arts in a secret place. Don't think I 1756 01:45:00.319 --> 01:45:04.359 even have to comment comment too much on that. You 1757 01:45:04.640 --> 01:45:08.479 can see see parallels to what's going on, to the 1758 01:45:08.520 --> 01:45:11.880 story and the broader social commentary that Lewis is making. 1759 01:45:13.520 --> 01:45:17.359 There's a lot to impact just in that quote. One 1760 01:45:17.399 --> 01:45:20.640 final thing that I'll say, so, I've sometimes seen a 1761 01:45:20.680 --> 01:45:22.720 quote taken out of context from the end of the book. 1762 01:45:24.279 --> 01:45:25.840 I don't have it open in front of me at 1763 01:45:25.840 --> 01:45:28.840 the moment, but it's something to the effect of Jane 1764 01:45:28.840 --> 01:45:32.279 no longer had dreams, she had children instead. And I've 1765 01:45:32.319 --> 01:45:36.039 seen that taken completely out of context, you know, and 1766 01:45:36.119 --> 01:45:41.239 itself sounds like I mean something very different, and people 1767 01:45:41.560 --> 01:45:46.840 use this, you know, and accusations of misogyny against Lewis. 1768 01:45:47.079 --> 01:45:49.840 But no, the context of the quote is she's no 1769 01:45:49.880 --> 01:45:55.159 longer having, you know, psychic nightmares. It's a good thing 1770 01:45:55.239 --> 01:45:57.239 that she's not having these dreams. 1771 01:45:59.039 --> 01:46:00.760 Yeah, that's a good point. Luis is not saying she 1772 01:46:00.760 --> 01:46:05.640 doesn't have aspirations anymore because now she has kids, that's over. Yeah, 1773 01:46:05.720 --> 01:46:09.079 So that's a good correction point. Yeah. And so obviously 1774 01:46:09.199 --> 01:46:11.479 you covered a lot of ground there, and I don't 1775 01:46:11.600 --> 01:46:15.079 feel need to comment on all of it, but I 1776 01:46:15.119 --> 01:46:18.600 do find it interesting the way that we see the 1777 01:46:18.760 --> 01:46:24.119 progression here from these early college meetings about budgets that 1778 01:46:24.159 --> 01:46:28.159 are then directly connected through this line down to Hell, 1779 01:46:28.800 --> 01:46:34.279 that what seems very mundane actually has pretty sinister roots 1780 01:46:34.279 --> 01:46:36.520 in it. And this makes me think of in The 1781 01:46:36.560 --> 01:46:39.560 Great Divorce, where we see that, or where we're told 1782 01:46:39.960 --> 01:46:43.520 that heaven and Hell tend to work their way backwards. 1783 01:46:44.199 --> 01:46:49.760 And so the progressive element of Edgstow is very much 1784 01:46:49.880 --> 01:46:55.079 an agent of Hell as much as weather and Frostar. 1785 01:46:55.479 --> 01:46:59.079 In other words, there are no morally ambiguous situations here 1786 01:46:59.079 --> 01:47:01.680 that Lewis is providing us. Everything is connected to the 1787 01:47:01.720 --> 01:47:05.880 heavenly or to the hellish. And then even the moon 1788 01:47:06.640 --> 01:47:09.279 is kind of this ambiguous reality, and that it has 1789 01:47:09.319 --> 01:47:12.520 one face toward the heavens and one face toward the earth, 1790 01:47:12.520 --> 01:47:14.399 which why is the light side and a dark side? 1791 01:47:15.079 --> 01:47:18.199 It is this transition point. It is kind of ambiguous, 1792 01:47:18.600 --> 01:47:21.279 and I think this is why back in Perilandra, when 1793 01:47:21.319 --> 01:47:25.239 they're describing the apocalypse that's waiting Earth leading up to 1794 01:47:25.279 --> 01:47:28.680 its real beginning, we're told that the moon is going 1795 01:47:28.720 --> 01:47:31.119 to be shattered and that its rocks are going to 1796 01:47:31.159 --> 01:47:33.199 fall into the seas, which, by the way, is exactly 1797 01:47:33.239 --> 01:47:36.000 what happens in the last battle. The moon is shattered 1798 01:47:36.079 --> 01:47:38.520 and the rocks fall into the seas, and so we 1799 01:47:38.560 --> 01:47:42.039 see that direct connection there, And I think it's the 1800 01:47:42.039 --> 01:47:45.560 idea that all moral ambiguity is going to be utterly 1801 01:47:45.600 --> 01:47:49.720 destroyed when the light meets with the darkness. And so 1802 01:47:50.640 --> 01:47:53.840 this kind of meandering, chaotic, ambiguous nature that we see 1803 01:47:53.840 --> 01:47:56.760 in so much of that hideous strength eventually is going 1804 01:47:56.760 --> 01:47:58.640 to be revealed as not being ambiguous at all, and 1805 01:47:58.680 --> 01:48:01.760 fact that it never was. Now, as far as Divine goes, 1806 01:48:03.439 --> 01:48:06.359 I think that he really does serve as the faux 1807 01:48:06.680 --> 01:48:10.720 masculine for Mark in particular, Mark who at the beginning 1808 01:48:10.760 --> 01:48:12.520 of the story and for most of the story, is 1809 01:48:12.600 --> 01:48:15.479 not properly related to the true masculine spirit. He doesn't 1810 01:48:15.520 --> 01:48:18.159 know how to assert himself. He just keeps receiving whatever 1811 01:48:18.319 --> 01:48:21.319 is given to him. And this is one reason why 1812 01:48:21.319 --> 01:48:24.279 he's drawn to Feverstone to divine and even that name 1813 01:48:24.359 --> 01:48:26.960 Feverstone has this idea of okay, you have fever. It's 1814 01:48:27.000 --> 01:48:30.399 fast moving, it's acting, it's heated. But also Stone, it 1815 01:48:30.399 --> 01:48:32.800 asserts itself. And so it is a kind of faux 1816 01:48:32.800 --> 01:48:35.880 Malachandrey in a faux martial spirit that is meant to 1817 01:48:36.600 --> 01:48:39.159 entice Mark to a false version of what he is 1818 01:48:39.199 --> 01:48:42.520 called to be. And so he's just enamored by Faverstone, 1819 01:48:42.560 --> 01:48:46.439 by the fast cars, by his laughter, by his aggressive attitude. 1820 01:48:46.760 --> 01:48:49.720 And I think that in the story that's really the 1821 01:48:49.800 --> 01:48:52.520 role that he plays. He is the false Malachandrean influence. 1822 01:48:52.840 --> 01:48:55.319 And I do see some continuity with his character here 1823 01:48:55.319 --> 01:48:57.159 and out of the Silent Planet, and that in both 1824 01:48:57.199 --> 01:49:00.000 cases he's just this self absorbed guy who's out for 1825 01:49:00.039 --> 01:49:02.840 material goods. And even in that hideous strength, you know, 1826 01:49:02.880 --> 01:49:06.479 he'll spout some of the progressive, nice talking points, but 1827 01:49:06.560 --> 01:49:10.159 he's not really a philosopher, right, He's not in it 1828 01:49:10.199 --> 01:49:12.600 for anything beyond himself, which is why he has no 1829 01:49:12.640 --> 01:49:14.960 problem at the end, just hopping in the car and 1830 01:49:15.039 --> 01:49:17.720 speeding off. And then you know, the other reason he's 1831 01:49:17.720 --> 01:49:20.560 okay with that car getting smashed up is well, it 1832 01:49:20.600 --> 01:49:24.920 wasn't his, So he's still just this self absorbed materialistic 1833 01:49:24.960 --> 01:49:29.439 guy who has this faux masculinity about him. Yeah, I'll 1834 01:49:29.520 --> 01:49:32.279 leave it there. When you keep moving, Chase, what do 1835 01:49:32.279 --> 01:49:33.000 you have for us? 1836 01:49:34.039 --> 01:49:37.279 Yes, I missed a little bit of some people's but 1837 01:49:37.880 --> 01:49:41.600 one of the big things that spoke to me that 1838 01:49:41.840 --> 01:49:46.239 you made clear up was with the Inner Ring and 1839 01:49:46.560 --> 01:49:51.319 just viewing it as like as like young man, we 1840 01:49:52.520 --> 01:49:56.720 all like desired to be part of some community of 1841 01:49:56.760 --> 01:50:04.880 some like successful group, and along comes just like a 1842 01:50:04.920 --> 01:50:07.359 group that's not good, but from the outside it looks 1843 01:50:07.399 --> 01:50:10.000 like it's the best thing we could be a part of. 1844 01:50:10.079 --> 01:50:12.920 And that's what we see with Mark is wanting to 1845 01:50:12.920 --> 01:50:16.880 be a part of this, and meanwhile he's missing out 1846 01:50:16.880 --> 01:50:21.000 on the actual good in a ring for this fake 1847 01:50:21.079 --> 01:50:24.479 one that's flashy and and it just kind of like 1848 01:50:24.520 --> 01:50:28.600 speaks to the pride of of like younger men and 1849 01:50:29.439 --> 01:50:33.760 that every man goes through like thinking they know a 1850 01:50:33.800 --> 01:50:38.760 lot and then not listening to older men who have 1851 01:50:38.800 --> 01:50:43.479 been through it, who have you know, like mister Dimple 1852 01:50:43.560 --> 01:50:45.720 was trying to talk to him, but you know, everyone 1853 01:50:45.760 --> 01:50:49.119 has faults and they can't quite match up, and and 1854 01:50:50.119 --> 01:50:53.960 so you know they're they're pushed apart and it just 1855 01:50:54.039 --> 01:50:58.640 drives him back. But thankfully he gets gets kind of 1856 01:50:58.680 --> 01:51:02.479 hits rock bottom. And also just the scene with the 1857 01:51:04.479 --> 01:51:08.439 with the crucifix and and just his conversion there at 1858 01:51:08.439 --> 01:51:11.800 the end is so great seeing him just like know 1859 01:51:11.920 --> 01:51:15.680 that it's wrong and having like a puddicle un moment 1860 01:51:15.720 --> 01:51:19.600 of of like, you know, I even if it's you know, 1861 01:51:20.920 --> 01:51:23.560 not like it's not true or it's it's not real, 1862 01:51:23.680 --> 01:51:26.119 or it's just a historical thing, like I'm not going 1863 01:51:26.239 --> 01:51:28.439 to do it because you know, like probably I'm was saying, 1864 01:51:28.479 --> 01:51:30.680 like I would want to live like an There is 1865 01:51:30.760 --> 01:51:35.039 no Garian. So that was that was cool. 1866 01:51:36.479 --> 01:51:38.960 Yeah, that is such a great moment, And so towards 1867 01:51:38.960 --> 01:51:40.760 the end of the book where at this point Mark 1868 01:51:41.039 --> 01:51:44.159 recognizes that and I see is evil. He wants nothing 1869 01:51:44.159 --> 01:51:46.920 to do with these people, but he's been put through 1870 01:51:46.960 --> 01:51:52.439 this training programs deprogramming program probably a better way to 1871 01:51:52.439 --> 01:51:55.800 phrase that, where he's there trying to put him through 1872 01:51:56.319 --> 01:51:58.199 all of these rooms where the aesthetics are just like 1873 01:51:58.199 --> 01:52:01.560 a little bit off, or they're grotesque, or they're trying 1874 01:52:01.600 --> 01:52:03.600 to get rid of his sense of beauty, the sense 1875 01:52:03.640 --> 01:52:07.319 of the real. And then as a final part of 1876 01:52:07.479 --> 01:52:11.359 this experiment, he's told to trample on and deface this 1877 01:52:11.399 --> 01:52:15.079 crucifix the symmes of the crucified Christ. And this is 1878 01:52:15.119 --> 01:52:17.479 a major turning point for him. He'd already started to 1879 01:52:17.520 --> 01:52:20.079 get the suspicion that, okay, maybe he's revolted by all 1880 01:52:20.079 --> 01:52:23.119 these images because there actually is something like the normal. Well, 1881 01:52:23.199 --> 01:52:25.319 now that really comes to a point when he's faced 1882 01:52:25.319 --> 01:52:29.880 to with with defacing this crucifix, and he kind of 1883 01:52:29.920 --> 01:52:32.079 has this idea of what did Christ ever do to me? 1884 01:52:33.680 --> 01:52:36.640 Why am I doing this? And then he just he 1885 01:52:36.680 --> 01:52:39.960 continues to meditate on it, and he starts to recognize that, Okay, 1886 01:52:40.079 --> 01:52:43.199 the crucifixion of Christ is what happens when the strait 1887 01:52:43.279 --> 01:52:45.560 meets the bent, and he says that it was the 1888 01:52:45.600 --> 01:52:49.840 bellbury of christ Day that led to the crucifixion, and 1889 01:52:49.960 --> 01:52:51.640 he doesn't want to be any part of that. And 1890 01:52:51.680 --> 01:52:55.079 so this point, he doesn't have any clear doctrine to 1891 01:52:55.119 --> 01:52:58.560 stand on. He doesn't know what's objectively true, but he 1892 01:52:58.640 --> 01:53:03.279 knows that given the option between the crucified Christ and 1893 01:53:03.399 --> 01:53:06.479 the crucifiers, He's going to choose the Christ right, He's 1894 01:53:06.520 --> 01:53:09.800 going to choose what he calls the normal. He's going 1895 01:53:09.840 --> 01:53:12.000 to choose the real, the strait, even if there is 1896 01:53:12.000 --> 01:53:13.720 no straight as you said, it's a very puddle glum 1897 01:53:13.720 --> 01:53:16.520 type of moment. And Lewis talks about in myth became 1898 01:53:16.600 --> 01:53:24.359 fact that given somebody who believes that Christianity is objectively true, 1899 01:53:24.479 --> 01:53:28.880 factually true, but doesn't actually move them, and then you 1900 01:53:28.920 --> 01:53:31.159 have somebody who believes the myth of Christianity but they're 1901 01:53:31.199 --> 01:53:34.720 not necessarily firm on the factuality of it. He said, 1902 01:53:34.720 --> 01:53:36.359 the person who chooses the myth is probably better off 1903 01:53:36.399 --> 01:53:38.439 because at least that's going to animate them. Now, to 1904 01:53:38.439 --> 01:53:41.960 be clear, the fact matters, and that's Lewis is not 1905 01:53:41.960 --> 01:53:44.800 degrading that. But his point is that fact alone isn't 1906 01:53:44.800 --> 01:53:48.680 going to move you. You need to embrace the moving 1907 01:53:48.760 --> 01:53:51.319 reality of who Christ is and what Christ stands for, 1908 01:53:51.359 --> 01:53:53.600 what Christ is done. And it's that story that's going 1909 01:53:53.640 --> 01:53:56.199 to contextualize your life. And so he very much has 1910 01:53:56.279 --> 01:53:59.600 that sense of the story is starting to make sense 1911 01:53:59.640 --> 01:54:02.520 to him, though he doesn't yet have the fact in mind, 1912 01:54:02.840 --> 01:54:06.239 and that's not necessarily a bad place to start, all right, Jackie, 1913 01:54:06.319 --> 01:54:06.720 go ahead. 1914 01:54:07.760 --> 01:54:10.479 Yeah, I thought that it was really interesting. I just 1915 01:54:10.640 --> 01:54:16.159 noticed this. I think that David and Jordan might have 1916 01:54:16.239 --> 01:54:21.239 both hit on this in Peralandra. But we're told over 1917 01:54:21.319 --> 01:54:24.840 and over again that Ransom shouldn't depend on his own strength, 1918 01:54:24.840 --> 01:54:28.880 and he doesn't have to take these things on his shoulders. 1919 01:54:29.039 --> 01:54:33.880 But here, in that hideous strength, Ransom is at the 1920 01:54:33.920 --> 01:54:38.760 center of the opposition of the good side, I guess 1921 01:54:38.800 --> 01:54:42.279 to be a little more clear, and he is holding 1922 01:54:42.279 --> 01:54:49.680 them all together, and he is communicating with the higher powers, 1923 01:54:50.279 --> 01:54:58.880 and he is then dispersing their orders to his team. 1924 01:54:59.079 --> 01:55:03.680 I don't know for a better word, but we get 1925 01:55:03.680 --> 01:55:08.880 that Jane observes that his shoulders could have held up 1926 01:55:08.920 --> 01:55:13.079 the whole house when she sees him, and she recognizes 1927 01:55:13.159 --> 01:55:20.479 his strength instantly. But he's also in a facilitator role. 1928 01:55:20.560 --> 01:55:25.039 Really in this book. He's not involved in any of 1929 01:55:25.079 --> 01:55:30.920 the actual action when it comes to opposing the powers 1930 01:55:30.920 --> 01:55:43.039 of darkness, but he is organizing all of the efforts 1931 01:55:43.960 --> 01:55:47.600 to uphold goodness. So I thought that was really interesting 1932 01:55:47.720 --> 01:55:52.520 to see how his arc completes itself. You know, he's 1933 01:55:52.560 --> 01:55:56.159 been wounded in this epic battle on Perilandra and so 1934 01:55:56.239 --> 01:55:59.199 he can't take place in the epic battle here on Earth. 1935 01:56:01.039 --> 01:56:02.920 I thought that that was kind of fun. 1936 01:56:03.439 --> 01:56:08.239 Right, And even at the end, you know, McPhee comments, who, 1937 01:56:08.239 --> 01:56:10.680 I know, we haven't even talked about him. But McPhee says, 1938 01:56:11.079 --> 01:56:14.520 so what did we actually do here? You know, the 1939 01:56:14.520 --> 01:56:18.600 main characters don't actually do anything. I mean, they do stuff, 1940 01:56:18.600 --> 01:56:21.680 but they don't really bring the victory. And McPhee said, 1941 01:56:21.720 --> 01:56:25.199 we're here just like guardening, like, what do we actually do? 1942 01:56:25.640 --> 01:56:29.920 And the whole point is that their job was not 1943 01:56:30.039 --> 01:56:33.079 to really do anything. Their job was to receive and 1944 01:56:33.119 --> 01:56:36.039 to be glad, not to be those who are going 1945 01:56:36.079 --> 01:56:39.039 to achieve merit, but those who are going to simply 1946 01:56:39.359 --> 01:56:42.279 receive what essentially what God is doing. God is going 1947 01:56:42.279 --> 01:56:44.760 to bring the victory here. In fact, there's this great 1948 01:56:45.239 --> 01:56:47.520 scene where Mertlin is talking to Ransom about what's going 1949 01:56:47.600 --> 01:56:50.840 to happen, and Ransom says, you know, basically, the gods 1950 01:56:50.840 --> 01:56:52.199 are going to descend and they're going to take care 1951 01:56:52.239 --> 01:56:56.079 of this, and Merlin says, well, hold up, there's got 1952 01:56:56.119 --> 01:56:58.560 to be a better way that we can manage this. 1953 01:56:58.680 --> 01:57:01.800 You know, what about the King wins, and Rasom says, well, 1954 01:57:01.800 --> 01:57:04.720 he doesn't really have any actual authority. So then, you know, 1955 01:57:04.960 --> 01:57:07.560 Merlin says, okay, well let's just overthrow them, right, I mean, 1956 01:57:07.760 --> 01:57:09.840 you're sitting in the seat of Arthur here, let's just 1957 01:57:09.840 --> 01:57:13.680 go take over. And Rasom says, we're like four people 1958 01:57:13.680 --> 01:57:16.479 and a bear. They keep going back and forth, and 1959 01:57:16.520 --> 01:57:19.439 Merlin just keeps appealing to all of these worldly powers. Okay, 1960 01:57:19.600 --> 01:57:22.640 you know, what about some Christian prince, Well, there aren't anymore. Okay, 1961 01:57:22.680 --> 01:57:25.399 what about the emperor? There is no emperor. Well what 1962 01:57:25.520 --> 01:57:28.920 about you know somebody from the east. Well, the West 1963 01:57:29.000 --> 01:57:31.880 has already exported s filled throughout the world, and so 1964 01:57:32.439 --> 01:57:34.600 there's really nowhere else to go. And it very much 1965 01:57:34.640 --> 01:57:38.159 is giving us this. There is no other stream type 1966 01:57:38.159 --> 01:57:40.840 of conversation, right to go to the beginning of the 1967 01:57:40.880 --> 01:57:44.439 Silver Chair, where it's all or nothing. We have to 1968 01:57:44.680 --> 01:57:49.560 cast ourselves before the power and the goodness and the 1969 01:57:49.600 --> 01:57:53.960 all sufficiency of God or we have nothing. That's it. 1970 01:57:54.039 --> 01:57:57.520 There is no other stream, and so it really just 1971 01:57:57.560 --> 01:58:00.560 continue this trajectory that we've seen throughout the series that 1972 01:58:00.920 --> 01:58:03.600 our job is not necessarily to be to the hero 1973 01:58:03.760 --> 01:58:05.800 or I guess what we should say, is the heroic 1974 01:58:05.880 --> 01:58:09.920 thing for us to do is to receive, receive that 1975 01:58:10.000 --> 01:58:12.600 the wave that Malodle is sending us. That's all we 1976 01:58:12.640 --> 01:58:16.399 are called to do, or as Ransom, systemicfee. Sometimes we 1977 01:58:16.439 --> 01:58:18.479 need to build an alter in one place for the 1978 01:58:18.479 --> 01:58:20.800 fire to descend on another. And so that's our job, 1979 01:58:20.840 --> 01:58:24.640 simply to be faithful through our faithfulness, through our receiving. 1980 01:58:25.000 --> 01:58:27.800 I mean, that's how we actually gain substance, not something 1981 01:58:27.840 --> 01:58:29.760 we can create on our own, as opposed to what 1982 01:58:29.760 --> 01:58:32.680 you see in the nice where the head is literally 1983 01:58:32.680 --> 01:58:36.199 this disembodied head, literally a man without a chest. Right, 1984 01:58:36.439 --> 01:58:41.000 it's all intellect, it's all rationality with no actual grounding, which, 1985 01:58:41.000 --> 01:58:44.159 as as Testererston says, that's how you get insanity, where 1986 01:58:44.239 --> 01:58:47.640 you could have somebody who is very logical but still insane. 1987 01:58:47.680 --> 01:58:50.439 They're not grounded in reality as opposed to the reality 1988 01:58:50.439 --> 01:58:55.600 that we get through relationship with deep Heaven. All right, Well, 1989 01:58:55.920 --> 01:58:58.720 anything else that anyone wants to say about that hideous strength. 1990 01:59:00.000 --> 01:59:02.960 I was thinking about you talking about just being on 1991 01:59:03.000 --> 01:59:07.039 the side of good and how earlier early in the book, 1992 01:59:07.359 --> 01:59:12.359 Mark and Featherstone are talking where Featherstone describes Ransom as 1993 01:59:12.039 --> 01:59:15.720 a respectable Cambridge Dawn with weak eyes, a game leg 1994 01:59:15.760 --> 01:59:18.680 and a fair beard, and says he killed Weston for 1995 01:59:19.000 --> 01:59:22.359 being on our side. And he says, you and I 1996 01:59:22.399 --> 01:59:25.319 don't like being ponds and we do rather like fighting, 1997 01:59:25.479 --> 01:59:29.479 especially on the winning side. And that part we were 1998 01:59:29.479 --> 01:59:33.159 talking about later where Mark is asked to step on 1999 01:59:33.399 --> 01:59:38.159 essentially like the the fumie from the Japanese Tokugawa Shoguna, 2000 01:59:38.199 --> 01:59:42.720 to root out the Christians, that's when he has that 2001 01:59:42.840 --> 01:59:47.760 realization that no, it's it's not what's a value of 2002 01:59:47.800 --> 01:59:52.000 being on the winning side? If it is not the 2003 01:59:52.079 --> 01:59:55.079 right side, it would be better, you know, even if 2004 01:59:56.079 --> 01:59:59.560 supposing the strait was utterly powerless, always and everywhere, certain 2005 01:59:59.560 --> 02:00:01.840 to be mocked, tortured and finally killed by the crooked 2006 02:00:02.920 --> 02:00:05.359 what then why not go down with the ship? And 2007 02:00:05.399 --> 02:00:10.079 I love how he ends that because his fear vanishes 2008 02:00:10.199 --> 02:00:14.000 that has protected him from doing foolish things all his life. 2009 02:00:14.079 --> 02:00:16.279 And he says, it's all bloody nonsense and I'm damned 2010 02:00:16.279 --> 02:00:18.760 if I do any such thing. And I feel like 2011 02:00:18.800 --> 02:00:22.840 that was a big his big turning point in realizing 2012 02:00:22.920 --> 02:00:28.680 that winning isn't everything. Being on the right side and 2013 02:00:28.760 --> 02:00:32.520 dying for the right side is much more valuable than winning. 2014 02:00:34.079 --> 02:00:36.920 Yeah, and that's where we, I think, really get this 2015 02:00:37.000 --> 02:00:40.399 redeemed northern spirit that is so important for Tolkien, so 2016 02:00:40.439 --> 02:00:45.359 important for Lewis. You can think of several quotes from Narnia, 2017 02:00:45.479 --> 02:00:48.399 like when you know, Rillian says that whether we live 2018 02:00:48.479 --> 02:00:50.640 or die as then will be our good Lord. Is 2019 02:00:50.760 --> 02:00:54.239 kind of mentality where consequences don't matter. What matters is 2020 02:00:54.439 --> 02:00:58.680 our relationship with the good. As even Socrates says in 2021 02:00:58.720 --> 02:01:01.039 the Apology as he's looking down the court of Athens 2022 02:01:01.079 --> 02:01:03.680 that is now condemning him, and he says that you 2023 02:01:03.720 --> 02:01:07.000 cannot do harm to a good man. It's the same 2024 02:01:07.000 --> 02:01:10.079 basic idea. Even if you kill me, well, that is 2025 02:01:10.119 --> 02:01:13.760 nothing to my relationship with goodness. And so that is 2026 02:01:13.800 --> 02:01:16.039 where we stand. That is where we live and die 2027 02:01:16.039 --> 02:01:20.680 in the most important sense. As Augustine says, you know, 2028 02:01:20.800 --> 02:01:23.880 let me see your face. Even if I die, lest 2029 02:01:23.920 --> 02:01:27.640 I die, all that matters is that relationship with with God, 2030 02:01:27.680 --> 02:01:30.399 with with the Ultimate, with Goodness itself. Heaven is what 2031 02:01:30.439 --> 02:01:33.319 remains when everything else is shaken. Anybody else want to 2032 02:01:33.319 --> 02:01:34.720 I don't want to cut anyone off, but I know 2033 02:01:34.760 --> 02:01:36.119 we've been going for a while. Anyone else want to 2034 02:01:36.119 --> 02:01:38.600 say anything else about this book or anything Ransom related. 2035 02:01:39.680 --> 02:01:41.560 I just want to take a moment of appreciation for 2036 02:01:41.680 --> 02:01:45.159 mister Bultitude. I love mister Bultitude. 2037 02:01:45.640 --> 02:01:49.319 Yes, it is kind of fun. I guess also speaks 2038 02:01:49.319 --> 02:01:53.039 to some of the things we've been talking about. The 2039 02:01:53.800 --> 02:01:56.199 Demonic Head and you know, the top of the nice 2040 02:01:56.520 --> 02:02:00.640 is undone, not by Ransom, not even by Mertlin, but 2041 02:02:00.760 --> 02:02:05.520 bye a Bear. I think it just I don't even 2042 02:02:05.640 --> 02:02:07.479 really know what else to say about that, other than 2043 02:02:07.560 --> 02:02:09.680 I guess to go Chris Farley on it. You know 2044 02:02:09.720 --> 02:02:13.359 that was that was awesome. Well, if there's nothing else, 2045 02:02:13.359 --> 02:02:15.439 I obviously there's so much more we could talk about, 2046 02:02:15.479 --> 02:02:16.840 but we've been going on for a while and so 2047 02:02:17.239 --> 02:02:20.079 we'll go ahead and wrap it. I definitely appreciate everyone 2048 02:02:20.399 --> 02:02:23.079 showing up again, and maybe sometime in the future we 2049 02:02:23.119 --> 02:02:25.279 can do something else Lewis related. I would love to 2050 02:02:25.319 --> 02:02:28.640 do that, but for now, we'll go ahead and sign off. 2051 02:02:28.960 --> 02:02:34.800 So thanks a bunch, Thank you, sing all again. I hope, yep, 2052 02:02:34.880 --> 02:02:36.399 definitely we'll do something again sometime. 2053 02:02:37.960 --> 02:02:39.800 Yes, this was great, lots of fun. 2054 02:02:53.720 --> 02:02:56.159 Thank you for joining us for this conversation. I hope 2055 02:02:56.159 --> 02:02:57.800 that you enjoyed it. And as I know that I did. 2056 02:02:58.239 --> 02:03:00.520 Now before we go, I do have a recommended for 2057 02:03:00.560 --> 02:03:03.680 you in addition to obviously the Ransom series by C. S. Lewis, 2058 02:03:03.720 --> 02:03:05.840 and then I need to touch on some Patreon stuff. 2059 02:03:05.920 --> 02:03:08.039 So today I would like to recommend to you Tom 2060 02:03:08.039 --> 02:03:11.279 Shippy's translation of Beowulf. I've read three different translations of 2061 02:03:11.319 --> 02:03:13.520 Beowulf now and I think that this is now my 2062 02:03:13.680 --> 02:03:17.039 go to recommendation for a first read. It's very approachable 2063 02:03:17.079 --> 02:03:20.560 without being condescending, and his commentary is very helpful and 2064 02:03:20.600 --> 02:03:23.560 it's very user friendly. Now, once you finish that, I 2065 02:03:23.600 --> 02:03:26.319 would then recommend that you turn to Tolkien's, which is 2066 02:03:26.359 --> 02:03:29.319 a prose translation, and for that reason alone it likely 2067 02:03:29.359 --> 02:03:32.000 should not be your first move with what is a poem, 2068 02:03:32.359 --> 02:03:36.159 but his language, Tolkien's language is so heavy and strong 2069 02:03:36.319 --> 02:03:39.199 and semi archaic that I believe it does an excellent 2070 02:03:39.279 --> 02:03:41.920 job of portraying the mood of the story. Also, his 2071 02:03:42.000 --> 02:03:45.279 commentary is far more dense than Shippy's, and so you 2072 02:03:45.359 --> 02:03:47.720 have to wordly wade through it. You have to work 2073 02:03:47.760 --> 02:03:49.720 through it a bit more, especially if you don't know 2074 02:03:49.760 --> 02:03:51.920 Anglo Saxon. A lot of times talkiing will go off 2075 02:03:51.960 --> 02:03:54.960 on some word nerdary there, and I don't know Anglo 2076 02:03:55.000 --> 02:03:57.079 Saxon myself, at least not yet. I hope to change 2077 02:03:57.079 --> 02:03:59.399 it at some point in the relatively near future. But 2078 02:03:59.520 --> 02:04:03.159 even if you don't follow all of his linguistic analysis, 2079 02:04:03.239 --> 02:04:05.880 there's still a great deal of gold to be found 2080 02:04:05.880 --> 02:04:08.800 in those minds, more so than I found elsewhere, And 2081 02:04:08.840 --> 02:04:11.560 so start with Shippy and then go to Tolkien. Now, 2082 02:04:11.720 --> 02:04:14.479 as always, if you appreciate what I do, I humbly 2083 02:04:14.520 --> 02:04:17.880 welcome your support on Patreon. Your level of involvement over 2084 02:04:17.880 --> 02:04:19.760 there is entirely up to you, as we have some 2085 02:04:19.840 --> 02:04:22.319 patrons who are very involved and some who are just 2086 02:04:22.359 --> 02:04:25.359 silent supporters. And know that I appreciate both sides of 2087 02:04:25.359 --> 02:04:28.680 that spectrum and everywhere in between very greatly, as I 2088 02:04:28.720 --> 02:04:30.800 could not do this without you. If you would like 2089 02:04:30.840 --> 02:04:33.119 to support my work, this podcast, and everything else that 2090 02:04:33.159 --> 02:04:35.279 I do, you can go to patreon dot com slash 2091 02:04:35.319 --> 02:04:38.119 Mythic Mind, and thank you to all of my current supporters, 2092 02:04:38.119 --> 02:04:41.920 specifically at the second tier or higher, and that's Mark Cliff, Aaron, Josh, 2093 02:04:41.960 --> 02:04:46.000 Paul William, Aaron Aaron, Andrew Brandon, Christopher Clinton and Me Harrison, 2094 02:04:46.159 --> 02:04:50.920 Ian Jamie, Jeremiah Jocelyn, Joshua Landon, Paul Matthew, Patrick and Steele, 2095 02:04:51.039 --> 02:04:52.479 and of course thank you to all of my Tier 2096 02:04:52.560 --> 02:04:55.680 one patrons as well and friends. I really do want 2097 02:04:55.680 --> 02:04:58.399 to emphasize how much I appreciate you and how much 2098 02:04:58.439 --> 02:05:00.840 I appreciate that this list is getting longer on a 2099 02:05:00.880 --> 02:05:04.000 regular basis. There are definitely some exciting things in the future, 2100 02:05:04.119 --> 02:05:06.960 and some of those things are closer than others. For example, 2101 02:05:07.039 --> 02:05:09.720 we're about to begin our first Mythic Mind book club 2102 02:05:10.000 --> 02:05:12.680 on the Poetic Eda, which is one of our primary 2103 02:05:12.720 --> 02:05:17.159 sources for information about Norse mythology and heroic legends. This 2104 02:05:17.199 --> 02:05:21.239 book club includes ongoing discord chats, a Patreon exclusive podcast, 2105 02:05:21.359 --> 02:05:24.840 and monthly live chats for the Mythic Mind Fellowship podcast. 2106 02:05:25.079 --> 02:05:26.880 If you would like to get involved, then go ahead 2107 02:05:26.920 --> 02:05:29.039 and become a patron at any level, and I would 2108 02:05:29.079 --> 02:05:32.199 be glad to have you join us. But that's different 2109 02:05:32.239 --> 02:06:11.119 now until next time, godspeed. You may have noticed that 2110 02:06:11.119 --> 02:06:14.159 there were no annoying auto populated ads the beginning or 2111 02:06:14.239 --> 02:06:16.399 throw into the middle of the show, and that's thanks 2112 02:06:16.439 --> 02:06:19.880 to our current sponsor, middle Born Arms. I previously relied 2113 02:06:19.920 --> 02:06:22.520 on those autopopulated ads, but to be honest, I know 2114 02:06:22.600 --> 02:06:26.520 that they're basically soulless. I much prefer supporting real people 2115 02:06:26.560 --> 02:06:28.880 through arrangements that work for both of us. If you 2116 02:06:28.920 --> 02:06:31.479 have something to advertise, whether a product, a service, or 2117 02:06:31.520 --> 02:06:33.640 a platform, send me a message where we can work 2118 02:06:33.640 --> 02:06:36.039 out some kind of partnership. You can DM me on 2119 02:06:36.079 --> 02:06:39.960 Twitter at andrew in Snyder or email me at Mythicmindpodcast 2120 02:06:40.000 --> 02:06:41.359 at gmail dot com