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Daily bonuses are waiting. 51 00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:00.000 No purchase necessary board. We're prohibited by long eighteen plus 52 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:02.280 terms and conditions of flag see website for details. 53 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:15.280 Baby, You are now listening to True Murder, The most 54 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:18.680 shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that 55 00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:24.960 have written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. 56 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:29.680 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 57 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:33.919 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 58 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:47.599 your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good evening. 59 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:51.879 Do you think I'm pretty? No one likes me. I 60 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:55.479 hate my life. I wish I had a friend. It 61 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:58.400 was the mantra of fourteen year old Cherokee Harriman, who, 62 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:01.599 in September two thousand and fifth, jan faced her allege 63 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:04.840 bullies in a small Tennessee public park and pulled out 64 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:08.599 a concealed kitchen knife. She drove the knife into her 65 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:13.560 stomach as the horrified teens watched. Local media focused on 66 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:17.199 sensationalism rather than truth. The word bulla's side was used, 67 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:21.400 meaning bullying drove Cherokee to kill herself. The story of 68 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:26.080 Cherokee's death flew through social media broadcasts for all to see. 69 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:29.800 Cherokee had shared her secrets online, where privacy disappears with 70 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:34.199 a slight movement of a computer mouse. A product of 71 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:37.840 a family doing their best with little resources. Cherokee was 72 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:39.879 passed through the mental health system as far as it 73 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:44.039 would take her, shuttled through and overworked an underfunded education 74 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:49.039 system supervised by government agencies with no real answers. She 75 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:52.560 was sent to stop bullying school programs unprepared to assist, 76 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:58.360 exasperbating the problems Cherokee Rose harrim November seventh, two thousand 77 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:03.719 to September fifth, twenty fifteen. A community began to question 78 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:08.120 the laws and definitions regarding bullying. Should schoolyard bullies be 79 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:12.120 held legally responsible for causing a suicide? Can a rough 80 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:16.800 family history guarantee a tragedy? And just what is bullying anyway? 81 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:20.959 Perhaps Cherokee's death was an accident. Perhaps there was a 82 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:24.800 sinister truth that had yet to be told. The book 83 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:27.399 that we're featuring this evening is Bullied to Death, A 84 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:31.560 story of bullying, social media and the suicide of Cherokee Harriman, 85 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:35.920 with my special guest, journalist and author Judith A. Yates. 86 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:38.000 Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much 87 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:40.040 for a Greenness interview. Judith A. 88 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:44.680 Yates, thank you for asking me, Thank. 89 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:48.399 You very much, very very unique book as I had mentioned, 90 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:52.439 and I think very very timely considering everything that's gone 91 00:04:52.439 --> 00:04:59.439 on is going on presently and just recently. So first 92 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:02.399 I I want to ask you how you came to 93 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:05.279 be in a position to be able to write this book. 94 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:14.040 Well, I was working on the book out of Memphis, 95 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:18.600 which is called She Is Evil, and between that and 96 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:23.199 the magazine that i'm editor, the story about Cherokee hit 97 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:26.439 local news and it was all over local news. And 98 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:30.279 I've looked at it because for some reason, Cherokee's photograph 99 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:33.800 just sort of grabbed me, and I thought, what in 100 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:37.560 the world. This is a sweet, beautiful girl. She just 101 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:43.000 radiates kindness. What would make this beautiful, little angelic girl 102 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:47.279 do something so severe? And I read a couple of 103 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:52.040 the articles and it just it just got me, and 104 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:56.040 I thought, Okay, I cannot look at anything else, because 105 00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:58.680 I try not to read anything else or look at 106 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:02.000 the news or anything while i'm working on something. But 107 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:06.560 for some reason, it was almost like she was tapping 108 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:10.720 me on the shoulder, and it was, Okay, not right now, 109 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:13.240 I'll look at this later. I'm working on She As Evil. 110 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:17.319 I'm back and forth to Memphis, and it just kept 111 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:20.800 tapping me and finally I was like, Okay, I will 112 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:24.319 look at you know, the news. I will look at 113 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:29.480 her Facebook page, I will look at her tweeter. I 114 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:31.240 knew I'd missed this up. I would look at her 115 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:37.279 tweeting and her parents' Facebook pages and everything else, and 116 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:40.360 I just fell into it. That's no other way to 117 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:45.000 explain it. It just it grabbed me because she just 118 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:51.120 had this aura that I could not fathom what happened, 119 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:55.680 how it happened. And I would keep feeling, literally feel 120 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:58.319 that nutge on my left shoulder, and I kept thinking, 121 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:01.639 I am so busy right now, and I kept feeling it. 122 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:07.000 And her family and her friends seem to believe, because 123 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:10.319 she did have such a strong presence, that that was 124 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:15.639 her tapping me, saying tell my story. And I do 125 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:16.199 believe that. 126 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:22.839 Certainly now. Cherokee Harriman was fourteen and five three and 127 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:27.040 one hundred and twenty pounds. Before we get to September fifth, 128 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:31.519 twenty fifteen, let's go back to her grandmother and her grandfather, 129 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:34.600 which are such important figures in this book, and their 130 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:39.839 story and their background and their mother's upbringing is crucial 131 00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:42.600 for people to understand the story. So let's go back 132 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:46.600 to Rita Coats and Joseph Harriman. They were married on 133 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:49.639 June twenty ninth, nineteen sixty eight, in Illinois. But tell 134 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:53.519 us about their getting together where they were in terms 135 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:56.560 of children at that point already before we talk a 136 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.959 little bit about life with Rita Coats and Joseph Harroon. 137 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:04.879 Okay, Well, Rita had several children when she met Joe, 138 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:08.839 and she really didn't know that much about him. And 139 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:13.480 when they first met, he was babysitting some of the 140 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:17.519 children and his family, and she was very taken because 141 00:08:17.560 --> 00:08:19.560 he said, well, don't you have a little boy, And 142 00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:22.120 she said yes, and he said, well, why don't you 143 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:25.240 bring him? And she was very taken with that that 144 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:28.240 he took the time to say that, and that he 145 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:34.240 took the interest. And they begin dating. She likes him, 146 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:41.080 and eventually they marry, and she soon finds out that 147 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:46.919 Joe is a bully. He has a drinking problem, and 148 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:50.320 he's a bully and he's very mean, but when he drinks, 149 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.000 he becomes even more so of a bully. Now, in 150 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:58.240 that day and time, women didn't file for divorce. They 151 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:03.759 certainly didn't leave. She had no marketable skills, as many 152 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:06.279 women of that time didn't That was just the times, 153 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:11.039 and so she was really forced to stay with this man, 154 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:15.159 and then together they had several children, so she was 155 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:20.120 really stuck in the times and by the times. Now. 156 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:23.720 Rita is a good person, she's a good hearted individual. 157 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:27.559 He has a lot of anger and resentment and a 158 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:31.080 lot of depression from how she's being treated. Where is 159 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:34.679 that anger and depression and that resentment going to go? 160 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:37.600 But also out on her children because there is no 161 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:41.480 other outlet. You certainly can't bully the bully because now 162 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:44.559 you're really asking for it. So it was sort of 163 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:49.120 just one big vicious circle. And the children never questioned 164 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:53.120 Joe because they were already being beaten and treated very badly, 165 00:09:53.279 --> 00:10:00.440 called names, physically, being beaten emotionally, he was calling them 166 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:04.200 horrible names. And so they all grew up in this 167 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:10.120 horribly oppressive household. And Heather Cherokee's mom told me, very bluntly, 168 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:16.960 my life was hell. And that was the environment in 169 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:19.399 which all of this started festering. 170 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:26.879 Yeah, you talk about this horrible language, and I'll just 171 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:30.200 put it in there for people for detail and bitches 172 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.879 and whores and sluts. So he had this no respect 173 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:39.639 for his children. And he was a mean person, but 174 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:42.240 you said he was an even meaner drunk, so drunk 175 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:46.440 or sober he treated everybody, especially Rita, like crap. 176 00:10:47.559 --> 00:10:53.720 Definitely, yes, and alcohol just exasperated the problem he was. 177 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:57.879 Here's a bully. He bullied Rita. He bullied the kids. 178 00:10:59.159 --> 00:10:59.320 Too. 179 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:02.840 In addition to this misery, you also talk about the 180 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:06.840 meager income. And then also as a result of this, 181 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:10.000 what Heather experienced at school? What kind of names did 182 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:12.639 she get she was getting at home? But what did 183 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:15.000 you get at school as a result of this meager income? 184 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:16.840 And how did how did how was it that she 185 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:19.200 was bullieding? Why specifically? 186 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:22.919 Right now? Both of the parents had blue collar jobs 187 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:26.519 and you know, several children, and they were really just 188 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:31.279 peacemailing it together. They were paycheck to paycheck and of 189 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.960 course whi Joe's drinking. That took away a lot of 190 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:39.799 the money with Heather Cherokee's mother. You know, she told me, 191 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:42.720 she said, we didn't have a lot of money, We 192 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:46.919 didn't have a lot of nice things. And with you know, 193 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:49.600 just this terror growing up in the house. You go 194 00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:52.840 to school and so you get called names, You get 195 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:57.600 called fat and stupid and ugly, and you get made 196 00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:00.000 fun of. You get made fun of because your clothes 197 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:02.919 aren't as nice as everyone else's. You get made fun 198 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:06.320 of because you know you can't concentrate in school because 199 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:08.799 of what went on last night in your household where 200 00:12:08.840 --> 00:12:11.360 you didn't sleep or you didn't get a meal before 201 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:15.360 you left, And so now you get called stupid or lazy, 202 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:19.919 and you get made fun of because maybe you smell 203 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:23.799 differently than the other kids. So really you're just being 204 00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:27.360 bullied at school now, and now you go home to 205 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:31.600 a bully and it's just this almost a whirlpool of crap. 206 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:34.440 You know that these kids are growing up in now 207 00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:37.440 they have friends that they can escape to. That's really 208 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:40.679 only just for a very short time because you have 209 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:42.879 to go home and you have to go to school. 210 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:49.200 What happens at fourteen years old for Heather? Ironically, as 211 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.960 we'll understand later in the story, what does she do 212 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:56.039 at fourteen years of age? And then afterwards what happens 213 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:58.960 in the home after this? This is a bizarre story. 214 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:04.799 Okay, Heather had just she had had it up to here. Now, 215 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:07.200 mind you, she's only a fourteen year old girl. She's 216 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:11.399 a child, and she's had enough of the bullying. She's 217 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:17.240 being called a slug, an idiot, fat, ugly, smelly. She's 218 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:21.679 getting that at home, she's getting that at school. There's 219 00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:25.159 no safe place for her. So she's sitting on the 220 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.639 couch and all of this is just whirling through her 221 00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:32.519 head and she's thinking, my life is worthless. I hate 222 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:38.360 my life. I'm nobody, I'm nothing, And this is why 223 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:40.559 don't I just end it all and make everybody happy? 224 00:13:41.159 --> 00:13:45.240 So she goes into the bathroom, she takes a handful 225 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:50.519 of peals, chugs them down and waits to die. And 226 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:53.279 a family member finds her, takes her to the hospital, 227 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:58.399 has her stomach pumped, and she's put on suicide watch. Now, 228 00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:02.600 the strange thing is when she goes home, she is 229 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:06.360 babied by her parents. They can't do enough for her. 230 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:10.240 What is it that you want? What can we get you? Oh? 231 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:12.440 We love you, know we care about you. Please don't 232 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:16.200 do this anymore. And just a few days later, it's 233 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:20.519 over and everybody starts treating everybody ugly again, the name calling, 234 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:26.039 the kicking, the hitting, the slapping. And then she goes 235 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:30.519 to school the name you know, the the ugly words, 236 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:34.360 And she said to me, it says, if they forgot 237 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:36.000 how to be nice. 238 00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:41.039 Now you talk about after eight years, Rita gave Joe 239 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:46.480 an ultimatum. What was the ultimatum? How did he respond right? 240 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:48.120 What was the result? 241 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:52.600 She tells Joe she's finally fed up. Rita's kind of 242 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:57.440 getting her her own voice just a little bit, and 243 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:01.679 she says to Joe, you have got to quit drinking. 244 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:06.399 You quit drinking, or I'm taking the kids and I'm leaving. Now. 245 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:10.440 This is big for Rita. This is just a huge 246 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:15.159 step for her. And you know, I believe that Joe 247 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:17.000 was such a bully that when you stand up to 248 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:20.200 bullies and you find your voice, they're going to back 249 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:23.840 down because they're taking advantage of the situation that you're 250 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:28.039 small and you're weak, and you are going to back down. 251 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:31.679 So when Rita does this, Joe does that, he backs 252 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:36.840 down and he stops drinking. And after that he absolutely 253 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:41.120 forbade alcohol in the house. And even one of Heather's 254 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:45.240 friends from childhood said, if Joe thought you had been drinking, 255 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:48.559 he'd have you sleep on the porch before he allowed 256 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:55.000 you in his home. And he was sober, he was cleaning, 257 00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:58.480 but he was still mean. He was still a bully. 258 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:01.519 He still treated his career kids like crap. He still 259 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:04.919 was very mean to read us, but he wasn't drinking. 260 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:13.399 Now, you talk about Heather's life growing up, but she 261 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:20.039 meets friends, she socializes, she meets long, long, long lost friends, 262 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:22.600 and she meets and you talk about a friend named 263 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:26.120 Abigail Fraser, which plays into the story a little bit later, 264 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:33.519 and they're fifteen and thirteen years old. She notices things 265 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:36.399 and talks about Heather and is with Heather all the time, 266 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:40.000 and grew up in not great circumstances herself, so she 267 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:43.399 has a lot of empathy for her. But what does 268 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:51.559 she categorize Heather's behavior as growing up in regards to right. 269 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:55.679 Well, you know everybody, you know, how when you're in school, 270 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.480 particularly high school, and you always find a kindred spirit 271 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:03.440 where you don't really even have to say anything and 272 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:06.599 they know how you're feeling. Or maybe your households are 273 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:10.319 so much alike that your friend knows what's going on 274 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.039 and they don't even have to say it and they 275 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.400 know how you're feeling because they felt that way too. Well, 276 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:23.160 that was Abigail, and she understood Heather, and that's why 277 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.720 Heather loved her so much is because she didn't judge her, 278 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:28.519 she didn't call names, because she also knew what it 279 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:30.839 was like to not have the best clothes or the 280 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:35.400 best house. But Abigail did notice with Heather that she 281 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:39.119 was looking for love, and even Heather knew that about herself. 282 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:43.319 She was looking for love and boyfriends. And she felt 283 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:47.559 like if she could just find a good boyfriend who 284 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:51.480 would love her for who she was, who felt she 285 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:55.279 was the best thing that came his way, who would 286 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:57.599 just give her hugs and kisses and told her I 287 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:01.079 love you and I care about you, she would be fine. 288 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:04.759 She would be in a perfect world for herself. And 289 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:09.039 Abigail would say, you know, she was always looking for 290 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.799 the right man, and when she found a boyfriend, she 291 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:16.319 sort of forgot all her friends because she was so 292 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:21.559 fixated on finding that someone special. Now, when women do that, 293 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:26.599 or even young girls, nine percent of the time, they're 294 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.400 going to find the wrong one. What Heather would do, 295 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:33.440 yew You. 296 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:35.400 Say that also that she was sick of being in 297 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:40.720 the home, so she used this as also an escape route. 298 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:43.279 And she had a boyfriend named Ronnie, and they were 299 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:48.000 living with three others and Ronnie and what happens with Ronnie, 300 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:54.519 and in terms of considering him this the one, what 301 00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:55.400 does she overlook? 302 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:02.119 Heather was trying so hard, and she told me this herself. 303 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:05.079 She said, you know, she was trying so hard to 304 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:09.240 get out from under her father's thumb. She quit high 305 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:11.680 school because of the way she was being treated. She 306 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:14.079 got out of her parent's house as soon as she could. 307 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:19.880 And she's overlooking bad things. And that included Ronnie's addiction. 308 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:24.920 That included Ronnie's drug dues. She kind of had this 309 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:28.759 flotsome life where they went from crashing at a friend's house, 310 00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:31.960 sleeping on the couch. Okay, well there are my roommates 311 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:34.680 this month, where we're going to go next month. So 312 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:39.079 that was life with him. And Heather started dabbling herself, 313 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:43.480 and she found that if you smoked weed, then you 314 00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:46.799 really forgot everything. The pain was away, and you could 315 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:49.599 live in this kind of a dream world. And so 316 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:55.240 she overlooked that with him. 317 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:58.759 You talk about she had a child. They had a 318 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:04.400 child named Shiloh born July ninety nine. What was the 319 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:08.000 she's this child was born with some problem? What were 320 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:11.920 the problems and what was the response from her mother? 321 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:21.039 Right sea I was born with several learning disorders, and 322 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:25.480 she wasn't your I hate to say normal baby, I 323 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:30.039 hate that term. She wasn't learning as quickly as most 324 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:34.240 babies were. He didn't seem to have the normal responses 325 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:39.799 as babies her age did. And right away Heather's mother, 326 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:44.880 Rita wondered if Heather and Ronnie had been using or 327 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:48.319 maybe they were smoking too many cigarettes while they were 328 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:52.920 both pregnant, because Heather had told Ronnie, well, we need 329 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:55.720 to settle down, we need to have a baby. You know, 330 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:59.480 we're we're right for parenthood. You know, we have a 331 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.160 baby and we'll make the perfect family. And they're overlooking 332 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:07.720 Ronnie's drug abuse. They're overlooking their lifestyle. They're overlooking the 333 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:10.480 fact that they're living in a place with you know, 334 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:15.480 it was no hot water. Sometimes they could pay for electricity. 335 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:18.359 Just in their minds, if they had a baby, they'd 336 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:23.240 be one big pappy family. And There's mother would try 337 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:26.319 and explain that to them, but as long as they 338 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:31.000 had each other, it was going to be fine. But meanwhile, 339 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:33.720 Shiloh's got all of these problems. 340 00:21:36.759 --> 00:21:38.960 Yeah, and you talk about that, she didn't really curb 341 00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:41.359 the mother didn't really curb her. Late nights and party 342 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.799 didn't accommodate this, you know, the challenges that you'd have 343 00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:48.759 with this child. Then you talk about she meets a 344 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:53.039 man again. Another crucial person hid his story incredible is 345 00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:55.839 Mac Edwards, and she meets them at an amusement park 346 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.440 through Mark's Mac's uncle. So how does this She supposed 347 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:03.480 to be in a relationship. So what happens here with 348 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:05.240 this Mac Edwards? 349 00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:08.680 I think that what was going on is, you know, 350 00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:12.359 things had started to crumble with Ronnie, so again she's 351 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:17.359 sort of still looking for that perfect loving relationship. Friends 352 00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:20.119 introduce her to Mac, not on purpose. It was sort 353 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:22.200 of one of those oh, you know, we're all going 354 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:25.839 out here together. This is my cousin, Mac, OHI how 355 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:28.279 are you? And they all end up going together. Well, 356 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:34.240 he and Mac like each other, and they get along 357 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:37.039 and they talk and they laugh and it's someone that 358 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.480 you can actually be yourself with and they exchange phone 359 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:45.279 numbers and the next thing you know, they're dating. And 360 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:48.960 I believe Mac truly did like her as much as 361 00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:52.880 Mack could. Mac had a problem with alcohol. He admitted 362 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:56.960 to me openly that he was an addict. His drugs 363 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:00.319 and choice were alcohol and marijuana, and he was a 364 00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:04.480 bad boy. He got into a lot of legal trouble 365 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:10.240 with Gosh, a lot of what I want. You know, 366 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:17.759 it sounds bad, petty crime, car thefts and dw I 367 00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:25.400 and just Max's record was spotty, let's put it that way. 368 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:28.880 And he didn't want to settle down. He liked her, 369 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:31.640 he loved her in his own way, but Mac wanted 370 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:33.319 to be a bad boy. He wanted to run with 371 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:36.599 his friends and create mayhem. He wasn't ready to settle down. 372 00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:44.400 Now November seventh, two thousand and he doesn't know this, 373 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:49.839 he's unaware of this. I have to say that there's 374 00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:55.960 a second child, and that's Cherokee Rose. And you say 375 00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:58.240 the Cherokee Rose as a state flower Georgia. Just for 376 00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:03.039 interests sake, what was her state in terms of her 377 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:07.519 medical condition at birth? I tell us a little bit 378 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:09.839 about the birth of Cherokee Rose. 379 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:15.279 Cherokee had a lot of medical issues when she had 380 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:19.799 been placed in ICU. It was some you know, several 381 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:22.960 days before she could come home. They had to make 382 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:29.200 a lot of allowances for her to be able to breathe. 383 00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:32.640 They had to have her on several machines so that 384 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:38.039 she could breathe normally. And what I thought was interesting 385 00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:42.279 as a side note here is the Cherokee rose is 386 00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:47.039 a flower that legend has it when the Native Americans 387 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:52.839 were driven out of Georgia during the Treilla Tears, the 388 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:58.200 children were dying on the wayside, and the elders prayed 389 00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:04.400 that there would be a symbol of left for the 390 00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:10.240 mothers of those children to remind the world that they 391 00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:12.720 had been there, that their children had been there. And 392 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:16.480 when their tears failed to the er the flowler, Cherokee 393 00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:21.200 rose grew in their place of their tears, and it 394 00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:25.319 was white for purity, and it was gold in the 395 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:29.039 sinner to represent what the white man had taken from 396 00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.880 Native Americans. And I found that to be a very 397 00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:37.559 interesting story as far as what happened to Cherokee is 398 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:41.160 Forster's story, so I thought that was an interesting choice 399 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:47.720 of names. But she had problems with her breathing, some 400 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:52.519 medical issues, and Heather also suffered a very difficult pregnancy 401 00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:56.759