WEBVTT 1 00:00:13.640 --> 00:02:49.599 It it it it it it it it it it. 2 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:01.960 H m hm. 3 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:19.639 Hm m hm hm h m hm hm h m 4 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:32.199 hm hm mm hmmm h m hmm. 5 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:37.680 I I I I, oh. 6 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:39.479 What do you wait? 7 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:39.719 Wait? 8 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:43.479 Wait do wit what? What's going on? What's going on? 9 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:49.560 What's up? Shout out h tur about what's going on? 10 00:03:54.479 --> 00:04:01.759 Both and Philip Jessica, we'll get the rip in the house. 11 00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:06.840 All right, are you guys ready. I wasn't gonna do 12 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:09.080 a stream today because I had planned to take my 13 00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:13.199 kids to like go kart racing and all stuff, and 14 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:16.120 it turns out it's the only day it's closed. 15 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:19.319 A god A. 16 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:28.800 God a So instead, let's do a stream now. I 17 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:31.639 tried to plan this with Jay because I did want 18 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:34.399 to do this stream, but he's a busy dude, and 19 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:37.920 today opened up. I was going to do a Thursday. 20 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:43.720 But you know, maybe in the future we'll take a 21 00:04:43.800 --> 00:04:47.439 couple of these questions and we'll do another stream with Jay, 22 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:51.000 maybe even add in other questions that atheists can't answer. 23 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:54.560 So we're gonna look at that. But of course, first 24 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:59.519 before that, we have to look at another terrible argument 25 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:02.319 from breakfast Tacos. I mean, it just wouldn't be fair. 26 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:12.519 I have an obligation. I have an obligation to constantly 27 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:18.560 push back on any new atheist coming up the ladder, 28 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:25.279 any of them. Dummerdox, He says, you're so silly, jam Bob, 29 00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:28.040 don't you know that logic grounds logic? Wait, wait until 30 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:32.800 you hear this one, doomer, Wait until you hear breakfast tacos, 31 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:40.720 other plate of garbage. It's gonna be great. Did Becky 32 00:05:40.839 --> 00:05:43.800 help you plan the go kart racing? Now Becky doesn't 33 00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:57.480 help with anything, Okay, Becky extreme? Maybe I don't know. 34 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:00.560 We'll see, we'll get we'll get into that. I guess 35 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:02.480 we can just start, you know, get going. Got one 36 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:06.560 hundred and fifty people here, So before we go to 37 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:08.800 the big video, we're gonna go to the small video. 38 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:16.920 Smaller guy, breakfast tacos. Now, his audience is not doing 39 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:19.439 him any favors. It was good to see that even 40 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:22.120 some of the atheists there were like, well, you're kind 41 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:24.720 of interrupting them and not letting him cross examine you, 42 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:37.839 which was obvious. But this next argument is rather silly 43 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:42.720 as well. Okay, so you don't need to read the premises. 44 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:45.319 I'll read them to you, and he'll read them and 45 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:50.079 we'll go one by one. Okay, let's start with the 46 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:54.240 beginning of it. He's trying to argue again, this is 47 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:56.279 what the naturalists are trying to do. They're trying to 48 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.279 press up, they're trying to tag They're trying to say 49 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:02.800 that there is a necessary precondition for all things, and 50 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:08.720 that necessary precondition for all things is just in this case, 51 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:13.199 the universal quantum field, which is hilarious. It's like, you 52 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:20.439 can't even locate such a thing. Plus, you need time 53 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:25.920 space matter for there to be a universal quantum field. Logically, 54 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:31.319 could there be time space matter hypothetically without a universal 55 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:35.199 quantum field. If the universal quantum field ends up being false, 56 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:38.560 you still have time space matter. So that's already a 57 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:41.759 problem here. But let's just hear them out. Okay, let's 58 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:42.360 just hear them out. 59 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:43.399 Premis one. 60 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:47.199 A necessary being is something that exists by its own nature, 61 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:51.360 is not dependent on anything else, exists in all possible worlds, 62 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:55.399 and provides a complete and sufficient explanation for the universe. 63 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:01.879 The universal quantum field is the necessary being because it 64 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:05.240 exists by its own nature, is not dependent on anything else, 65 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:08.959 It exists in all possible worlds, and provides a complete 66 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:15.240 and sufficient explanation for the universe invoking unnecessary metaphysical speculation. 67 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:19.360 Metaphysical speculation. Can you tell me how the quantum field 68 00:08:19.879 --> 00:08:23.279 accounts for everything in the universe if the universe includes 69 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:37.120 metaphysics rot Row Becky, Oh, Breakfast Tacos, Oh, Breakfast Tacos. Okay, 70 00:08:38.120 --> 00:08:42.879 the universal quantum field is the necessary being. It's non dependent. 71 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:46.080 I'm sorry, Breakfast Tacos. I know you won't answer these 72 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:47.799 questions in a one on one, so I'll just do 73 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:50.679 it and pretend I'm having a good faith conversation with you. 74 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:55.080 Is the universal quantum field dependent on time, space, and matter? 75 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:02.960 Is the universal quantum field identical to time? If it's not, 76 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:11.159 and it's dependent on time, then premise through is false? Becky. Yeah, 77 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:20.600 is too easy. This is just too easy. How did 78 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:25.039 you determine the universal quantum field exists in all possible worlds? 79 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:28.919 What was the methodology for that that you smuggled into 80 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:32.559 premise to Breakfast Tacos. I don't think you have I 81 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:36.000 don't think you can tell me. And lastly, in premise 82 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:42.039 to again, I have to reiterate it provides the universal 83 00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:45.679 quantum field provides a complete and sufficient explanation for the 84 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:50.960 universe without evoking unnecessary metaphysical speculation. It sounds like that's 85 00:09:51.039 --> 00:10:00.559 unnecessary metaphysical speculation. How does the universal quantum field account 86 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.399 for I don't know, you don't like this one, but 87 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:10.519 the regularity of nature? How does it account for the 88 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:15.919 relations the logical consistent relations between parts? How does it 89 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:20.159 account for that? How does it account for mind? Wait 90 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:25.080 a second, how does it account for truth? Please tell 91 00:10:25.159 --> 00:10:28.559 me how a universal quantum field, which is not a 92 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:32.000 being a person with a mind, how does the universal 93 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:36.440 quantum field breakfast tacos account for everything in the universe? 94 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:41.840 If what we include in the universe's knowledge, information, and truth? 95 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:48.399 Excuse me, you can't answer. 96 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:49.600 That primis three. 97 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:53.639 Any proposed necessary being that does not provide a complete 98 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:56.480 explanation for the universe is incoherent. 99 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:02.919 Primis conclusion your necessary being being. The universal quantum field 100 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:07.799 is an incoherent because it's a proposed necessary being and 101 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:15.399 it doesn't provide a complete explanation of truth, knowledge, metaphysics. Okay, 102 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:21.159 doesn't provide an explanation for let's say, if morality exists. Now, 103 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:25.080 I don't know under this argument whether he's included including 104 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:31.399 such things as morality, something that's immoral, evil, good? Does 105 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:33.879 it account for the good? Is a good an actual thing? 106 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:34.200 Is it? 107 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:37.679 Is it good something you appeal to? How does it 108 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:40.360 account for the laws of thought that are conceptual and 109 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:46.759 not identical to the universal quantum field. Hmm, it's incoherent. 110 00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:52.440 Throw your arguments in the dumpster, light them on fire, 111 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:54.279 and eat another sandwich. 112 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:58.960 As far, any proposed necessary being that overlaps with the 113 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:04.879 universal quantum field old explanation without adding anything new is redundant. Conclusion. Therefore, 114 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:08.840 all proposed necessary beings other than the universal quantum field 115 00:12:08.919 --> 00:12:14.200 or false because they are either incoherent or redundant. Just one. 116 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:18.159 That's That's pretty much the end of his argument. Why 117 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:24.120 because he would argue that anything any other proposed necessary 118 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.399 being in this case the Christian God, doesn't add anything. 119 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:32.559 If it adds anything additional, then it's false. And if 120 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:37.039 it's doesn't add anything additional, then it's redundant. Well, no, 121 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:41.799 you have a problem of intentionality here. So if the 122 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:45.960 universe is unintentional and completely accidental and random, that's that 123 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:48.720 doesn't give an account for the universe that we see today. 124 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:54.080 If the universal quantum field is ultimately random, and has 125 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:57.720 no purpose or direction. It cannot account for the reality 126 00:12:57.759 --> 00:13:01.600 that we exist in today. Why because you arguing the 127 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:05.879 fact the act of you arguing is inconsistent with a 128 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:12.000 result that a random quantum field would produce. Why would 129 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:19.480 a random quantum field produce an intentional, an intentional, seemingly 130 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:25.120 intentional outcome in which argumentation is possible? Rationality? Where's where's 131 00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:29.399 rationality in the universal quantum field? How does universal quantum 132 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:33.480 field account for argumentation itself? This is why the tag 133 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:37.960 is superior to this nonsense, because once you remove a mind, 134 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:44.159 you remove the necessary component for truth. Things that are 135 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:47.519 mind dependent that are also in the universe but don't 136 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:53.320 aren't identical to matter or physicality. This is where physicalism 137 00:13:53.440 --> 00:14:01.559 leads you, folks. It leads you to obscene gibberish, just complete, 138 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:07.639 complete gibberating. Now it's a disservice that has owned audience. 139 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:11.120 They want this to be true because it's fun, but 140 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:14.120 they're not really rigorous. Some of them are. There's a 141 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:16.600 couple I'll hand it to you. There are a couple 142 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.480 of atheists who follow this guy who go, hmmm, I 143 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:23.799 don't thinks so, dude, because they would say you're you're 144 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:27.639 doing the same smuggling or the same appealing to mystery, 145 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.720 appealing to ignorance that the theist is doing. If they're 146 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:34.639 if the atheist is consistent, they'll have the same objections 147 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:43.679 to Breakfast Tacos. They all have the same objections. Those 148 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:46.320 are the consistent atheists. So you know, in a sense, 149 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:51.039 Breakfast Tacos is doing a service by demonstrating and weeding 150 00:14:51.080 --> 00:14:56.679 out the consistent atheists versus the inconsistent. This is metaphysical speculation. 151 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:05.960 It literally is metaphysical specula yeah, complete fancy pants. So 152 00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:15.919 so that's the end of another argument, unfortunately from Breakfast Tacos, 153 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:20.840 and it happened very quickly. Josiah, thank you so much 154 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:23.679 for your five gifted memberships and whoever got those welcome 155 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:29.440 Dustin says, how does the universal quantum feel, explain? Star 156 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:46.720 wail fart music checkmate atheist, I did end Breakfast Tacos definitively. Yeah, well, 157 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:49.919 premise three disqualifies premise too. Yeah, let's look at that again. 158 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:53.879 Just to just to reiterate here, any proposed necessary being 159 00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:56.360 that does not provide a complete explanation for the universe, 160 00:15:56.919 --> 00:16:01.480 right premise to universal quantum feeling is a necessary being 161 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:04.480 because it exists its own nature, not dependent on anything else. Yes, 162 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:07.639 it is, it's dependent on time. Time is not identical 163 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:15.399 to the universal quantum field. Matter relations the universal quantum field. 164 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:20.559 The way you're positing it theoretically, by the way, requires 165 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:24.799 that existence itself has some sort of nature to it. 166 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:31.759 But time is a killer right there. Right to say 167 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:37.039 it's non dependent. This is where this is where eternality uncreated. 168 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:41.600 Eternality is necessitated in this argument. So what's the difference 169 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:49.759 between an eternal universe that's personless and forever existed. Eternal 170 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:55.600 does not mean uncreated. So they're ambiguous when they don't 171 00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:57.919 know what they're saying. They're not sure what position to 172 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:01.279 take when they say the universe is eternal, right, okay, 173 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:07.039 is it uncreated? Is it uncreated? They don't know where 174 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:09.279 to go with that. They might think that's the same. 175 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:13.319 I think that's the point Heisenberg, that he's doing a 176 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:16.480 sort of parody, and I don't even think he really 177 00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:20.400 believes this. I think he's doing a parody, you know, 178 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:26.559 and it's a fun parody, but it's ultimately incoherent. Brenda's 179 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:32.720 back as Billy Bob Billy Joel decided on Earth is flat. No, Now, 180 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:37.160 I don't really think it matters. Brenda, have you decided 181 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:38.880 if you're a man or a woman yet? I mean, 182 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:41.400 if all these things are up in the air and arbitrary, 183 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:44.799 I don't understand why it matters. If A doesn't equal a, 184 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:50.440 why would it matter. Huh? Flat is definitely a shape. 185 00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:55.920 No it's not. No, it's not. Flat is not a shape. Okay, 186 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:01.519 it's not a shape. It's a description of a surface. 187 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:04.000 Is bad. 188 00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:09.839 Now, I guess mathematically you can do like theoretical geometry 189 00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:14.880 and like imagine some sort of crazy plane that's the 190 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:20.119 thinnest thing ever and it itself is like the shape 191 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:22.559 of a square or a circle or whatever you want 192 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:25.480 from the top view. But then from the side view 193 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:29.799 it's completely flat. But even that would have some sort 194 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:32.759 of height dimension to the side, like the ridge, you 195 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:38.759 know what I mean, like the like the it would 196 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:42.880 have something some other angle to it. So no, flat 197 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:44.279 can't be a shape. 198 00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:44.880 You know. 199 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:52.839 Joseph says, I'm not an atheist, but I think it 200 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:55.200 would be pretty easy to debate. Debate what at the 201 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:57.480 end of the day, you grant just about anything, and 202 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:02.400 your point really wouldn't be refuted. I'm not sure exactly 203 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:09.319 what you're Can your God change? No, the nature of 204 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:18.160 God doesn't change as soon as God changes. They introduced time. No, 205 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:22.400 God doesn't change. No, the creation of time, the temporal 206 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.279 state state uh that we exist in from a Christian view, 207 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:29.200 is not God changing. I don't know what you're talking about, 208 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:36.960 but it's nice to see some of the common atheists 209 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:39.799 here so confused and dumb. I know, it's rough. 210 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:40.400 It's rough. 211 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:42.720 They got a long they got a long way to go, 212 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:50.119 but they're here. But they're here, okay, So okay, so 213 00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:52.839 we got that under the belt. Breakfast taco is another 214 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:58.000 failed argument. You failed, You keep failing. I look at 215 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:03.000 your arguments and I think no as to how easily 216 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:07.200 they're refuted. And it's easy. It is easy. It's like 217 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:10.680 getting on a bike, just like jumping on a bike, 218 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:15.440 doing a little lap around the up around the neighborhood, 219 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:19.799 you know, kicking over a person and a scooter naked 220 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:22.880 Big says. Keep in mind that the name Iron Charoit 221 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:26.519 here has another Bible verse taken out of contacts, and no, 222 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:30.880 Yahweh was not defeated by Iron Charity. Its yeah, I mean, 223 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:36.880 that's why I don't get into her her menuetics. Not 224 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:42.640 only is my study not sufficient, but even if it was, 225 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:46.319 the only thing that's ever being debated when you get 226 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:50.119 into that is someone taking their interpretation and the measuring 227 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:54.519 up against the normative authority. That's all that's happening every time. 228 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:58.200 And if the person wouldn't engage with the normative authority 229 00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:01.839 or rejected wholesale, it really doesn't matter from their view, 230 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:08.839 it just it just doesn't matter. I butchered the word. No, 231 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:18.200 I didn't her menuetics. For those of you not the 232 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:23.559 debate is today Trump fans, that's gonna be interesting, I guess. 233 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.039 I mean, there's gonna be a whole shit ton of 234 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:29.400 people who cover that. I won't be covering that. Maybe 235 00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:30.599 I'll get some clips or something. 236 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:35.119 Her menuetics. 237 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:40.519 No over on this channel. We forever use her menuetics, 238 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:44.559 because that's what Owen Benjamin said. He didn't know in 239 00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:50.200 a debate about Christianity and scripture. He didn't know what 240 00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:57.480 her hermaneutics was, so he said her menuetics. He said 241 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:01.400 her menuetics. So it's forever her menus and not hermoneutics, 242 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:11.480 her menu etics. All right, let's move over to this Okay, 243 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:20.160 Popular Channel, a couple of crumpet tea drinkers, Alex O'Connor, 244 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:23.680 one of the most famous young atheists, and this other 245 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:27.759 atheists unsolicited advice. I don't know his name. They cover 246 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:33.559 nine questions that are proposed by feists in general that 247 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:35.440 the atheists can answer, and we're gonna see if they 248 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:38.799 can answer. We'll see if they can honestly navigate them. 249 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:41.200 I watched a little bit of this. I found that 250 00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:46.720 Alex O'Connor, even though I he falls into some really 251 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:51.119 bad reasoning a lot, that he he does have like 252 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:56.000 this open mind when he engages with people, he kind 253 00:22:56.039 --> 00:22:58.359 of like goes, well, let me think about that. And 254 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:06.319 I do appreciate that, but ultimately British people are unbearable. 255 00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:14.640 So so I'm more watching it for this guy because 256 00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:17.920 he has a more refreshing approach. 257 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:18.480 I think. 258 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:22.359 It's gonna be sort of aious, facetious response. 259 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:26.240 So the first question is I thought about this, why 260 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:28.599 is there something rather than nothing? I was thinking about 261 00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:33.039 this yesterday and it's a you know, a question. It's 262 00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:35.920 a natural question to come up to a rise. It's 263 00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:38.319 something we think of when we're like thirteen. We look 264 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:40.519 up at the stars in the first there's this moment, 265 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:46.279 the first time a philosophical a jarring question hits us 266 00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:49.440 in our youth. At least that's what I remember going 267 00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:53.039 with the I was sitting with my friends, going, what 268 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:56.559 the hell, what the hell? 269 00:23:59.279 --> 00:23:59.839 What is that? 270 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:04.920 Yes, what are we doing? What are we doing? 271 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:06.799 Why? 272 00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:07.720 Space so big? 273 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:09.480 So? 274 00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:17.720 Why is there something rather than nothing? Why? I thought 275 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:21.799 about this? And let's say you came to some strange 276 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:27.279 naturalistic conclusion of why there's something instead of something rather 277 00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:32.000 than nothing? Something rather than nothing? Well, not that the 278 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:34.880 naturalists could answer that, because it's endless regress. You'd always 279 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:37.599 be going back in time to more matter like breakfast tacos? 280 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:41.559 Does stuff comes from stuff? But even if you granted it, 281 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:44.000 even if you didn't argue that view, let's imagine that 282 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:50.160 there was something, and there was a decent reason mechanically 283 00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:57.640 why there's something. This doesn't answer another question because when 284 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:00.160 you ask why is there something, if you answer it 285 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:03.400 from a mechanical view, a mechanistic view, you have some 286 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.880 sort of explanation or description of a process that then 287 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.839 produced a new thing. Even if we granted that, which 288 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:13.400 we wouldn't concede that because it's endless. It ends up 289 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:16.440 in endless regress. But even if you granted it for 290 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:19.799 a second, I thought, yesterday I was thinking about this, 291 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:23.880 and I thought, wow. When you ask the question why, 292 00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:30.920 you're asking a teleological question, not just an explanatory question 293 00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:38.279 about mechanics. Because once you answer try to answer why 294 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:42.559 is there something, you're also answering a question about the 295 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.759 future of that something. So you're answering a question about 296 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.319 the past of something, the presence of something, and the 297 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.240 future of something. Because if you came to some mechanical 298 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:56.200 explanation of why there is something, you need to then 299 00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:59.359 keep going with that of well, there has to be 300 00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:03.319 a direction to that then, And that's why in Christianity 301 00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:06.680 it isn't in fact coherent. When we ask why is 302 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:12.359 there something? And if we appeal to God's creation, there's 303 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:15.319 a pre existence, there's an existence, and there's a direction, 304 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:21.079 there's a there's a tel us to the why, there's 305 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:24.960 a whole reason to it. But a naturalist, even if 306 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:29.240 they came to the nearest, best coherent explanation of why 307 00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:33.279 something rather than nothing, they can't tell you further the direction. 308 00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:38.000 They've only granted themselves. What they're doing they have no 309 00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:42.119 direction after that. Like let's say you just granted them time, space, matter, 310 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:46.480 material regularity, logic, and you just PLoP them down in 311 00:26:46.599 --> 00:26:49.480 the universe, and you told them why is there something? 312 00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:52.519 Because you know this, this mechanical thing happened, it's a 313 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:55.799 weird misfire or some crazy shit. They don't understand, Okay, 314 00:26:57.079 --> 00:27:00.759 to ask why is there something? You're really asking why. 315 00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:03.880 Ultimately in the future there's that thing too, not just 316 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:06.200 why is it now? Why is it now and now 317 00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:14.519 and now? So you can't separate the teloss from the 318 00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:18.960 question of why. You can't separate the direction of why 319 00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:22.640 from the explanation of why. That's why Christianity it makes 320 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:28.880 perfect sense. Alpha and Omega. It does make sense that 321 00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:34.680 you can't separate all of the all of it, all 322 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:41.079 the story. You can't separate it from its direction. But 323 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:43.720 they try to, and I don't know if they'd sufficiently 324 00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:44.160 do it here. 325 00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:47.319 This is still something that for instance, like David Hume addresses, 326 00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:49.759 which I think is an interesting spect for the very 327 00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:53.480 least worth considering, is that he suggests that questions like 328 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:56.799 why is there something rather than nothing? The domain in 329 00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:00.000 which they're operating is fundamentally unlike the domain through way 330 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:03.680 which we've acquired most of our knowledge gathering apparatus, so 331 00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:08.240 you know, humans and empiricis, and he talks about how 332 00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:11.000 well we're gathering our ideas from the material world around 333 00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:13.480 us or that's not let's not be that controversial, just 334 00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:19.640 the world around us, and yeah, and that and additionally. 335 00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:21.559 If Megan wasn't a good enough reason to never do 336 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:25.279 a sort of clean face mustache, if that wasn't a 337 00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:27.559 good enough reason, Alex O'Connor. 338 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:31.039 Is thinks that we learn reason, even if even if 339 00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:33.440 he's not, you know, goes not entirely sure what the 340 00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:36.200 kind of metaphysical grounding of reason is. He thinks that 341 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:40.000 our reasoning faculties are attuned to this reality that we 342 00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:42.839 live in. And so something that he brings up, which 343 00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:46.559 I think is very interesting, is the notion that questions 344 00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:50.720 like why is there something rather than nothing are in 345 00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:52.799 principle unanswerable. 346 00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:57.559 Is his idea at least well, under his model, he's consistent, 347 00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:01.559 at least one of the rare consistent impirist Of course 348 00:29:01.640 --> 00:29:09.519 it's inconsistent. You couldn't answer it from empiricism. Now, the 349 00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:11.880 fact that you can't answer it from a certain standard 350 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:14.720 doesn't mean it can't be answered regardless if you don't 351 00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:17.559 like the answer. So the statement that it can't be 352 00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:20.359 answered by anybody, which is what the conclusion they come to, 353 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:26.880 is presupposing empiricism. They just don't like the answer. They 354 00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:30.160 don't like a non empirical answer to a question that 355 00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:34.759 can't be empirical. This is why atheist and naturalist physicalists 356 00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:40.000 have to believe in miracles. Hence my fourth episode Upcoming 357 00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:42.799 answers against arguments against atheism. 358 00:29:44.119 --> 00:29:45.960 And it's not that he thinks that. It's not that 359 00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:48.920 he thinks necessarily, just that they are unverifiable, Like why 360 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:51.039 is that something rather than nothing? Oh, maybe that's a gould. 361 00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:53.599 Maybe that's like a platonic ordering to the world that 362 00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:55.720 dwells in a realm of forms. It's not so much 363 00:29:56.319 --> 00:29:58.680 that's not so much as issue that becomes an issue 364 00:29:58.759 --> 00:30:01.359 for a lot of like twentieth century pipe boot Hume, 365 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:05.880 through his kind of skeptical method UH basically raises the 366 00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:08.839 idea that it's just unanswerable because the the tools that 367 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:10.599 we've got to form beliefs. 368 00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:14.640 And there we go, the tools we have to form 369 00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:20.519 beliefs are reduced to sense data analysis evaluation. But that's 370 00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:25.920 actually that's not true from the Christian view, like we 371 00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:31.799 accept logic and mind evaluation, and yet we don't verify 372 00:30:31.960 --> 00:30:36.599 mind evaluation through sense data, like we don't we assume 373 00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:41.079 mind to do sense data stuff. There's no sense data 374 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:44.519 called the mind that we're evaluating. There's no sense data 375 00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:49.079 attached to the laws of logic that are identical to 376 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:52.160 the laws of logic that we we empirically weigh and 377 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:59.279 look at meaning information truth. None of these things are weighable, measurable. 378 00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:03.519 They're not They're not as items in the world, and 379 00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:08.480 yet they're assumed when we talk about this stuff. So 380 00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:11.799 even if you granted some weird answer to why is 381 00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:15.559 there something and not nothing? You have a bigger question 382 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:18.599 to ask. Anyway, even if you granted the something, great, well, 383 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.160 grant you something. You shouldn't grant them something, but grant 384 00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:25.119 them something, Grant them the word you know, the world 385 00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:29.000 as it is, Grant them regularity. They still can't answer, 386 00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:33.920 why is their rationality and reasoning and not? You know 387 00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:37.279 what I mean? Why is their rationality and reasoning and not? 388 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:42.480 By the way they simul simultaneously exist. From their view, 389 00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:46.279 there's a there's a number of beings in their view 390 00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:49.480 that are rational and do reasoning and do metaphysics and 391 00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:52.640 do philosophy. They use the laws of logic, and they 392 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:56.640 do moral reasoning, and they do debate, and they do calculus, 393 00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:59.400 and they do engineering. All of these things you could 394 00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:01.519 just as well the atheists. Why do we have that? 395 00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:03.079 Why is that a thing? 396 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:04.319 You so? 397 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:06.279 Well, it's just the way it has to be. Well, no, 398 00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:08.920 it doesn't, because you could look at other animals and 399 00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:12.440 they don't have the same qualities traits status as a 400 00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:23.319 human being. Why is it that humans specifically in their 401 00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:26.200 account of the universe, Why is it that there's only 402 00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:32.839 one peculiar known type of being in the known universe 403 00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:38.279 that has the capacity that we have? Why is that, 404 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:44.599 you know, they grant themselves the whole other slew of things. 405 00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:50.599 It's basically special pleading. The atheist does constant special pleading 406 00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:54.200 when they start doing reasoning. Why because everything they know 407 00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:57.759 about induction says everything else else out there in the 408 00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:01.160 world that's alive. A tree, a crab, a dear, even 409 00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:05.960 an ape is not doing the kind of philosophy and 410 00:33:06.039 --> 00:33:10.720 metaphysics we're doing about that stuff. It's the same same 411 00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:13.880 reason they are special pleading when they talk about if 412 00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:16.920 they take a physical disposition, and they say, all other 413 00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:20.559 effects of physics out there are non propositional, but there's 414 00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:24.599 this one that is truth appt. There's this one and 415 00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:29.680 only one effect of physics that's purely an effect of 416 00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:33.240 physics that happens to be truth appt in contrast to 417 00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:36.920 every other single one virtually we know of. And that's 418 00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:42.079 a that's evaluation in a mind dependent proposition. It's all. 419 00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:45.400 It's all special pleading. They're constantly special pleading. 420 00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:50.839 Full opinions on reason aren't suited to the domain in 421 00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:54.160 which that question needs to be answered, which is sort 422 00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:54.839 of a cup pound answer. 423 00:33:54.920 --> 00:33:56.599 Suppose, what does it mean that the question is right? 424 00:33:56.680 --> 00:33:59.480 That this is a question that atheist human. 425 00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:01.880 Sits a question no one can answer. Yeah, which is 426 00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:04.599 which I think I think may may end up potentially 427 00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:05.599 becoming a bit of a theme. 428 00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:09.000 Did I disagree with that whether or not someone could 429 00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:12.480 answer it or like come to the full veracity of 430 00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:15.519 the answer from just pure rationality or empiricism. It's a 431 00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:17.719 different question of whether that not they can answer it, 432 00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:21.880 And you don't like the answer. So the irony here 433 00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:25.119 is God done it. God done it. They always make 434 00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:27.159 fun of the theists. God done it is still a 435 00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:31.079 better answer. God done It is a better answer. It's 436 00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:35.079 a more coherent answer if we're using coherency alone. God 437 00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:42.280 done It, coincidentally, is a better answer than accidentalism. It's 438 00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:46.159 more coherent. It's and as dumb as it sounds, I mean, 439 00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:48.320 it's almost like a fun troll. God done it is 440 00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:50.239 still more coherent than accidentalism. 441 00:34:51.079 --> 00:34:54.000 Well, because you know I and the other presupposition of 442 00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:55.639 the of the wise, that's something rather than nothing right 443 00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:57.639 you can't answer because it has this kind of like 444 00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:00.119 TD logical bents to it, which I think is I 445 00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:01.039 find really interesting. 446 00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:03.599 Yeah. Yeah, he does a little look a little rough. 447 00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:06.679 He looks like one of the characters from uh, what 448 00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:10.920 was that movie where Matthew McConaughey played like an AIDS 449 00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:14.760 victim at a rodeo. He kind of looks like is 450 00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:17.639 someone who didn't make the cut, but he was prepared 451 00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:18.239 at the audition. 452 00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:22.119 Because I think one of the presuppositional differences in almost 453 00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:24.639 temperament between a lot of atheists and a lot of 454 00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:28.719 theists is that I think that a lot of people 455 00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:32.559 then I think that's a lot of theistic answers appeal 456 00:35:32.599 --> 00:35:34.519 to this, like tediological instinct we have. 457 00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:39.559 Well, no, it's not just an instinct, a teleological instinct. 458 00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:44.880 It's that the teleological aspect needs to be embedded in 459 00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:48.320 the answer. I just explained this in the beginning. When 460 00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:51.039 you ask a why question, why does something exist and 461 00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:54.719 not and not exist? Well, anything we know inductively that 462 00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:59.440 exists that we can bring into reality has a purpose. 463 00:36:01.719 --> 00:36:06.199 We even look at the natural world and we can't 464 00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:10.159 escape looking at it through a purposeful lens, that this 465 00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:12.880 thing has a purpose. Even if you reduced it to survival, 466 00:36:13.079 --> 00:36:21.800 you're still assuming purpose, right exactly, Marcus, exactly exactly. Biology 467 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:24.840 presupposes to teleology. Yeah, it does. You can't escape it. 468 00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:28.320 So it's not an impulse. It's not just an impulse. 469 00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:31.679 He's acting like it's just some sort of impulse that 470 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:34.039 we have, like a random like, oh, there's a spark. 471 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:40.760 Everyone has this impulse. Why would everyone have the impulse? Why? 472 00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:43.119 Why would it matter if you had the impulse or not? 473 00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:49.679 In order to find not just mechanistic explanation. 474 00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:54.880 To ask why is the impulse? To ask why is 475 00:36:54.920 --> 00:37:02.840 there something and not nothing? Is an expression of a 476 00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:09.079 person that holds that is, that's pursuing a teleological position. 477 00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:12.320 There's no there's no way around it. The moment you 478 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:21.719 ask why you're already in a teleological position, you're already 479 00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:22.440 You're already in it. 480 00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:25.159 You're already assuming it actions and not just kind of 481 00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:29.840 causal explanatory theories, but reasonable ones. So you know, you know, 482 00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:30.960 I I if I. 483 00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:36.559 With a you know, drop this rain drops and roses 484 00:37:36.679 --> 00:37:37.280 and whisks. 485 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:40.559 Oh no, not that, And if you drink can, then 486 00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:43.360 there's this new tonic, this new tonic. 487 00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:46.159 Wait at the camera. Oh yes, we're not sponsored, but 488 00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:48.239 maybe one day. 489 00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:49.599 But if I were, if I were to drop it, 490 00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:53.639 two ways of approaching that. One is approaching explaining that. 491 00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:56.039 One is to say, well, the force of gravity actor 492 00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:57.920 on the can and all of the muscles in my 493 00:37:58.000 --> 00:37:58.880 hand unclenched. 494 00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:01.599 And they don't say gravity is a forest. 495 00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:05.320 Dude, Okay, stop, there was a natural signal that went 496 00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:07.320 from my brain to the hand, and that would be 497 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:12.159 a kind of a mechanistic explanation, right, poppy explanation, like 498 00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:14.480 quite right, always missed the l But that would be 499 00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:18.840 a mechanistic explanation, and whereas a teleological one one in 500 00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:20.079 terms of uh. 501 00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:27.480 Again, when we argue against physicalists who who try to 502 00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:32.480 defend some purely mechanistic, you know, examination of the whole 503 00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:39.360 entire universe, including their own reasoning, they're assuming, again a 504 00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:43.800 teleological position, that examination has a purpose. They're in a 505 00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:47.679 performative contradiction to say, like a mechanistic universe if it 506 00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:53.760 reduces to note uh, teleology if no purpose, no higher 507 00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:59.559 purpose can be derived from pure mechanics, just effects of 508 00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:08.039 mechanic then asking from a mechanistic universe universal position, what 509 00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:12.360 about teleology is already a contradiction anyway. I mean, it's like, 510 00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:16.199 this is what the problem is with the modern atheist 511 00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.920 philosophy is that it holds a basket of the branches 512 00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:27.000 of philosophy, right, just the more basic branches that everything 513 00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:32.119 else kind of falls under. Is epistemology, which is knowledge, metaphysics, 514 00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:38.119 and morality. They like to say ethics, but ultimately it's 515 00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:41.559 morality and everything under that ontology. It's all mixed in 516 00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:44.639 into this basket. And they think they can pick up 517 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:49.079 parts of the worldview and and divorce them while they're 518 00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:51.280 talking from the other in a basket. But no, that 519 00:39:51.880 --> 00:39:53.920 can't be the case. It's never the case. It could 520 00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:57.280 be demonstrated, it's not the case. For instance, someone says, well, 521 00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:01.960 I'm arguing ontology, not epistemology. They'll do things like this. No, 522 00:40:03.559 --> 00:40:08.519 to make an ontological statement is to make an epistemic statement. 523 00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:13.800 To make an epistemic statement is to assume a metaphysical position. 524 00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:20.920 To take a metaphysical position assumes an ontological and epistemic system. 525 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:24.320 To argue, we ought to come to some conclusion about it, 526 00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:28.360 and there's a direction A quote good is to assume 527 00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.760 the moral branch of philosophy. Now, from a Christian worldview, 528 00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:35.880 we can look at this and make sense of it. Why, 529 00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:40.079 because all of the branches tie into one root, and 530 00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:44.440 the root is a necessary mind, a divine being that's unchanging. 531 00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:48.840 We don't pretend we can hang out on the one 532 00:40:48.920 --> 00:40:51.760 branch without assuming the other two branches. But these guys 533 00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:55.039 do all the time. It's pretty much the foundation of 534 00:40:55.119 --> 00:41:01.159 their entire careers is picking up the roots of the 535 00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:04.760 branches of philosophy like their chopsticks, separated from. 536 00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:09.199 The rest reasons or purposes. One might say, kind of 537 00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:12.239 broadly construed would be that I wanted to and then 538 00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:17.519 I did, and those two types of explanatory hypothesis often 539 00:41:17.599 --> 00:41:21.760 run parallel in everyday life. Especially Boo and I think 540 00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:22.719 the why is there something wrong? 541 00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:23.039 Is why? 542 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:25.400 This is why I can never get these guys to 543 00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:31.079 talk to me. I'm such a arrogant child. I cannot 544 00:41:31.159 --> 00:41:32.360 listen to these people without. 545 00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:36.119 Going skippity poppity Boo, eat a hard boiled egg in 546 00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:37.320 a bowl with a tiny. 547 00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:41.159 Spoon rather than nothing, you know that one, oarsions. I 548 00:41:41.199 --> 00:41:44.400 think that the kind of oh, well there was a 549 00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:47.320 bad bang or like stuff like that, or well, because 550 00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:49.719 you know, we have this causal story that runs towards 551 00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:50.079 this thing. 552 00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:51.800 Okay, talking about the same thing. 553 00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:54.079 Okay, let's skip. This is a large section, so let's 554 00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:56.599 let's uh, let's go to the next section. 555 00:41:57.960 --> 00:41:59.679 Okay, the real question. 556 00:41:59.559 --> 00:42:03.000 Too, Scooby de bu and it's raining out that starts 557 00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:06.039 with a why I'm in England. It's raining and dark 558 00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:06.920 and dreary out. 559 00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:10.320 There's a question that atheists can't answer. 560 00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:12.400 Yeah, that is that is? That is the word? Why 561 00:42:12.519 --> 00:42:13.559 not the letter why? Yes? 562 00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:16.599 Yeah, that's oh no, that's fantastic. And again I actually 563 00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:19.440 think that this this ties in quite nicely to talking 564 00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:22.199 about before about brilliant we do have this kind of 565 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:26.599 crying out for teleology in our why questions because that 566 00:42:26.679 --> 00:42:30.639 there there are two like why is wonderfully ambiguous as 567 00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:33.760 a question in everyday life when we ask why, we 568 00:42:33.880 --> 00:42:35.920 often have Yeah, we have. We we mean it in 569 00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:37.639 two ways. What's caused this to be the case and 570 00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:38.960 what is the reason this is the case? 571 00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:41.440 Yeah, you can't separate the two. What causes it to 572 00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:44.639 be the case cannot be separated from the future reason 573 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:47.400 to be the case. You can never separate it. It's 574 00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:50.119 never separated. But the atheist view, it is separated. It's 575 00:42:50.159 --> 00:43:01.639 not it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant. I'm bearable. I can't even 576 00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:07.320 do it myself, or you know, it's the hardest accent. 577 00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:13.159 This is interesting. Richard Bolty kind of offhandedly almost define 578 00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:20.320 this distinction between reasonable and causal explanatory hypotheses. And I 579 00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:22.159 think it's really touch to the point right now, you. 580 00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:26.119 Can't do that from atheism. Why is he assuming that 581 00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:30.119 from an atheistic view, which is ultimately reduced to mechanisms. 582 00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:33.960 Why would he think that there's this separation between a 583 00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:39.559 causal mechanism and a reasonable explanation, a causal explanation and 584 00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:43.119 a reason well no, you can't have that, you know why, 585 00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:49.000 because under the atheistic view, your reason is caused, Your 586 00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:53.239 reason is caused. So he's trying to now smuggle in 587 00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:59.280 this distinction that you don't actually have called there's reasoning 588 00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:02.920 and it's separate from the mechanistic determine universe that we 589 00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:05.559 hold true. So yeah, we can go back in time 590 00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:08.920 and develop causes and causal explanations until it comes to 591 00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:12.599 my reasoning. Then I must hold that my reasoning is 592 00:44:12.679 --> 00:44:16.840 somehow immune to the mechanistic constraints. They would say, well, no, 593 00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:20.840 I'm not saying that. Well no, it's worse than you think. 594 00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:24.920 Even if you came around and said, well, no, my 595 00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:29.480 reasoning is not immune from the constraints of the mechanical universe. 596 00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:33.719 Well no, I would say, whatever you're calling reasoning is 597 00:44:33.880 --> 00:44:37.800 the mechanical universe. There's no like vantage point where you're 598 00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:42.239 granted some sort of privileged position about your thoughts and 599 00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:47.079 evaluations in your view. The atheist view doesn't matter if 600 00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:50.519 you're an atheist who borrows a platonic view and grants 601 00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:56.239 themselves some immaterial transcendental categories floating in the sky. Ultimately, 602 00:44:57.639 --> 00:45:02.519 the what, the cause, and the the effect all reduced 603 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:08.079 to pure physical mechanics. But now here he is, Oh, 604 00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:14.000 I grant myself, there's this lovely there's this lovely philosopher 605 00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:19.280 who makes this distinction of cause and reason. Your reason 606 00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:21.239 is caused from your view. 607 00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:26.079 In certainly in materialist atheism, and that there is no 608 00:45:26.199 --> 00:45:29.440 materialist atheism, which is again it's so fascinating topic, but 609 00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:31.159 it's I think it's about to say that most atheists 610 00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:34.039 are coming up coming at it from a materialist standpoint, right, Yeah, 611 00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:38.840 that that that you you eliminate teleology, You eliminate reasoning. 612 00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:43.840 Forget teleology, dude, you eliminate reasoning and truth and evaluation. 613 00:45:44.440 --> 00:45:46.960 You eliminate it if you're coming at it from an 614 00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:52.760 atheist perspective, and that reduces to physicalism naturalism. Everything you're doing, 615 00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.800 all the things you're saying, is all just downstream from 616 00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:59.639 that initial cause Domino's turtles stuff all the way down. 617 00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:03.079 You don't have, you know, arguably, you don't have purpose 618 00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:07.360 trumpet and rice pudding reasons in this sense of why 619 00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:07.639 is the. 620 00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:15.039 Hold an umbrella slide down the banister Scotch eggs. 621 00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:17.599 Yeah, it basically in the sense of purpose, right in 622 00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:20.760 this teleogical fashion, at which point, yeah, you you actually 623 00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:26.079 do lose questions of why. But it is worth noting 624 00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:28.639 that that's not necessarily that's not actually an implication of atheism. 625 00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:30.880 It's material material to say that, no. 626 00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:32.880 No, no, you can't. This is what they always try 627 00:46:32.920 --> 00:46:37.599 to do. They're like, I'm an athist. No, I'm an 628 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:48.880 asians an interior. I haven't had one atheist who claims 629 00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:55.199 they're nano materialists are able to defend how it is 630 00:46:56.079 --> 00:47:02.719 they deny materialism, if they deny God, not one. All 631 00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:06.320 they do is positive They oh, well, I just hold well, 632 00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:08.719 I'm an atheist. I just you know, I just come 633 00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:11.320 to the conclusion that God. You know, I'm not. It's 634 00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:13.840 not a reasonable belief for me to hold that God exists. 635 00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:17.559 But it is even though I'm using empiricism to deny God, 636 00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:24.039 I'm using evidentialism to deny God's existence. But grant me mind. Also, 637 00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:29.719 something you can't verify through empiricism or evidentialism, knowledge, truth, 638 00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:35.360 laws of thought, meaning regularity of nature, none of which 639 00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:40.480 you can actually verify or or justify. Let's say a 640 00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:46.920 bigger challenge. You can't justify any of it yet, yet 641 00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:52.239 you just hold it to be true. Your very standard 642 00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:58.079 that you use to reject God's existence is not used 643 00:47:58.360 --> 00:48:01.599 for the entire category of things that are outside your 644 00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:05.360 naturalistic paradigm. You just this is the Enlightenment bullshit that 645 00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:07.480 they've been trained in. Well, you don't need to justify 646 00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:13.960 there are oxioms. They're oxioms. No, he hasn't addressed me. 647 00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:16.440 I'm small fish. You kidding me. You got to be 648 00:48:16.519 --> 00:48:19.760 like Ben Shappier or Daily Wire to engage with this guy. 649 00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:23.599 It's it's not a problem for atheists because you, I mean, 650 00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:27.719 the real problem is when you reduce everything to the material, 651 00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:32.239 which I suppose almost materials. All materialists are going to 652 00:48:32.280 --> 00:48:35.280 be atheists. But it doesn't mean little atheists are going 653 00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:36.039 to be materialist. 654 00:48:36.079 --> 00:48:38.239 No, no, no, it does. It does mean that. Now 655 00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:42.159 you think that it sounds reasonable to say that, doesn't it? Well, logically, yeah, 656 00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:45.480 we could probably say, well not you know, all materialists 657 00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:49.159 must be atheists, or all atheists or will be materialists, 658 00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:51.320 but not all materials will be atheist. That's not true. 659 00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:56.280 Now you think that's true, But you're just being lazy 660 00:48:56.320 --> 00:48:59.079 about it. No offense, You're just being lazy. All you 661 00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:00.840 have to do is push them by the way. This 662 00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:06.519 still applies to spiritual, not religious. Still applies to spiritual 663 00:49:06.599 --> 00:49:10.880 not religious, the spiritual New Age not religious people. When 664 00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:13.599 you press them, they're like, no, I'm not a materialist, 665 00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:15.519 and you go you press them and guess what they do. 666 00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:20.679 They reduce God to material to energy, to frequencies, to stars, 667 00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:25.800 to you know, feelings, to vibes, whatever it is. They 668 00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:30.280 are materialists, and so are the atheists they are. 669 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:34.559 You could be an atheist who believes that, you know, 670 00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:37.239 consciousness is immaterial or something, but you still don't believe 671 00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:37.519 in God. 672 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.239 Now you can't justify that. We're not talking about beliefs. 673 00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:44.360 This is why Jay Dyer sighs so much in his 674 00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:49.840 engagements is because they constantly conflate whether or not you 675 00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:53.960 can believe something and whether or not you can coherently 676 00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:57.800 defend it in your paradigm. So these people come to 677 00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:01.519 the oh, well, no, an atheist can believe in the 678 00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:05.239 mind and the consciousness is immaterial, so therefore they're not materials. No, 679 00:50:05.679 --> 00:50:08.599 when you ask them to justify the consciousness, they will 680 00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:13.039 show up as materialists immediately. That's why justification is a 681 00:50:13.079 --> 00:50:16.280 good question, not something you just you don't just grant 682 00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:20.679 an atheist axiomatically that consciousness is immaterial. Even though we 683 00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:23.559 agree with that, you don't just grant it to them 684 00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:26.960 under their view. You don't let them borrow from the 685 00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:30.960 supernatural the Christian worldview without justification. 686 00:50:33.320 --> 00:50:33.840 But he does. 687 00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:37.239 Oh, they believe it. So so that's like saying, well, 688 00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:42.199 there are Christians who believe in Christ isn't divine, so 689 00:50:42.559 --> 00:50:46.679 you can be a Christian. No, no, you can't. You 690 00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:48.559 can claim that that's different. 691 00:50:48.679 --> 00:50:50.599 Like the problem I've always had with the example you 692 00:50:50.679 --> 00:50:53.559 gave of that sort of being these two competing styles 693 00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:57.719 of explanation. It's it's something I hate commonly and religious discourse. 694 00:50:57.360 --> 00:50:59.599 Like, okay, let's go to the next one. Atheists, that 695 00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:02.519 is art. 696 00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:06.840 Atheists cannot get an ord from it. Is well to 697 00:51:06.920 --> 00:51:08.719 a some extent that that's a strong Argment's just that 698 00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:11.440 no one can make some this is this is a 699 00:51:11.559 --> 00:51:12.599 fairly common. 700 00:51:13.239 --> 00:51:15.599 I've actually explored this, and even though it's a really 701 00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:19.440 good counter to someone who's committing the naturalistic fallacy or 702 00:51:19.639 --> 00:51:23.480 you know, like answers and atheism saying morality is biological 703 00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:26.199 or whatever it is. I thought about this and I 704 00:51:26.280 --> 00:51:29.920 still haven't fully exhausted it. And maybe you guys can 705 00:51:29.960 --> 00:51:33.440 give me feedback in the chat here when they say 706 00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:37.800 there's the is art gap that famously has been put 707 00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:50.480 on the marquee of philosophy, Hume, it removes am I 708 00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:56.039 getting throttled already? It removes the capability of saying we 709 00:51:56.159 --> 00:51:58.719 ought to come to truth like the art claim we 710 00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:03.880 ought to come to truth that I was thinking, well, 711 00:52:08.599 --> 00:52:11.719 if looking at the world as it is and describing 712 00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:13.400 the world as it is could never give you the 713 00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:17.800 ought to be question, which I agree with. There is 714 00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:22.480 one road that I've explored whether or not this gets 715 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:23.760 out of it out of it, and I don't know 716 00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:27.159 that it does, so you guys can tell me. But 717 00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:32.079 if it's the case, if the is a if the 718 00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:36.559 isness of reality is that there's not a single person 719 00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:47.159 who can demonstrate not valuing truth. Now I'm not talking 720 00:52:47.159 --> 00:52:56.519 about someone who's incapacitated. I'm saying with their faculties intact, 721 00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:02.840 with their faculty, these faculties intact. Is it the case 722 00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:11.039 that everybody who exists can't escape valuing truth? And you think, well, 723 00:53:11.079 --> 00:53:15.000 what's valuing truth? Like you're consciously thinking, I value this claim, 724 00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:17.960 I value this claim like this active, which it is active. 725 00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:21.599 I'm not talking about that. I'm more fundamentally I'm talking 726 00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:24.360 about can you even exist in the world. You wake up, 727 00:53:24.639 --> 00:53:28.199 you get out of bed, just waking up and getting 728 00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:32.639 out of bed? Can you is it? It's impossible from 729 00:53:32.679 --> 00:53:35.280 my view, to wake up and do the action of 730 00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:44.800 getting out of bed without even unknowingly or unconsciously valuing truth. 731 00:53:46.840 --> 00:53:49.719 What's the foundation? What is the that you exist, that 732 00:53:50.039 --> 00:53:52.760 there's a bed, that you're trusting your senses, that your 733 00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:56.719 your body is following the commands of your mind and 734 00:53:56.800 --> 00:54:04.039 your brain. You're already appealing to truth. You're already appealing 735 00:54:04.079 --> 00:54:08.719 to the truth. So if the argument is, if it's 736 00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:12.639 the case that everybody who exists, who has their faculties, 737 00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:17.239 values truth and they can't not, then now you have 738 00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:22.519 an If you have an if if you value truth, 739 00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:28.960 then how can you escape the aught? I'm not sure 740 00:54:29.119 --> 00:54:32.480 how you can escape the aught of that. So if 741 00:54:32.519 --> 00:54:34.880 the question if the like frame like this, if you 742 00:54:35.039 --> 00:54:38.360 value truth, then you ought to be consistent. I think 743 00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:41.559 most people agree with that. If you value because there's 744 00:54:41.559 --> 00:54:45.039 an if there's a conditional. If you value truth, you 745 00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:50.199 ought to be consistent, you ought to be coherent. Well, 746 00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:54.440 if it's the case that everybody who exists values truth, 747 00:54:54.599 --> 00:54:57.280 and you can't not value truth unless you're just like, 748 00:54:57.760 --> 00:55:02.039 you know, brain dead, your faculty are gone. If it's 749 00:55:02.079 --> 00:55:06.119 the case that everybody who exists values truth, then everybody 750 00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:07.239 ought to be consistent. 751 00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:16.840 Theme in this genre of response video I find because 752 00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:21.760 you know, why does the universe exist? The smammy atheist says, 753 00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:22.679 I like that. 754 00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:25.440 He says they're smarmy atheists at least, I mean they're 755 00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:28.840 smarmy theists too. Marcus says, I would say, more broadly, 756 00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:31.679 you are appealing to intelligibility, but truth is not separate 757 00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:36.119 from that. Really well, yeah, I would say to point 758 00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:40.199 to intelligibility assumes the laws of logic, law of identity, 759 00:55:40.360 --> 00:55:44.320 that there's a you intelligibly interacting with an intelligible world 760 00:55:44.360 --> 00:55:46.920 that's not identical to your mind and brain and body. 761 00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:52.000 But that the really the thing that I'm trying to 762 00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:55.239 present is that they say you can't get in is 763 00:55:55.440 --> 00:55:58.400 an ought from it is, But you could only get 764 00:55:58.440 --> 00:56:00.519 an aught from it is if there is an if. 765 00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:04.639 But the on there's the reality we're in has an 766 00:56:04.760 --> 00:56:13.280 unescapable If I'm not inconsistent with veganism, Veganism is garbage. 767 00:56:14.599 --> 00:56:18.639 Veganism is absolute trash. It's never rising, it's always going 768 00:56:18.719 --> 00:56:24.920 to be under one percent. Veganism is complete trash. Vegan 769 00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:32.880 metaphysics is garbage. It's it's a it's a horrific position. 770 00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:36.320 I don't know, and neither do you. And the point 771 00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:39.840 is like, like, you're asking a legitimate question, but it's 772 00:56:39.880 --> 00:56:42.360 a legitimate question that your answer to is either, like 773 00:56:42.480 --> 00:56:44.599 you say, a bit sort of ad hoc or a 774 00:56:44.679 --> 00:56:48.800 bit unsatisfactory or a bit silly, or you know, subject 775 00:56:48.920 --> 00:56:52.400 to its own analysis and questions. So can an atheist 776 00:56:52.400 --> 00:56:55.639 get an orphroman is no, But like you say, cannethists 777 00:56:55.639 --> 00:56:57.360 do it either. I had this debate with Ben Shapiro 778 00:56:57.760 --> 00:56:58.400 and Ben Shapier. 779 00:56:58.639 --> 00:57:00.880 Wow, Ben Shapira can't get an art from it is 780 00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:04.039 even if he appeals to the ultimate circularity of God. 781 00:57:04.159 --> 00:57:09.719 He has a unknowable God. He has an unknowable bagel 782 00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:10.840 God Bagel. 783 00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:14.480 Cool it with the anti Semitic remarks. 784 00:57:15.199 --> 00:57:17.599 It makes sense that you would debate Ben Shapiro, who 785 00:57:17.639 --> 00:57:22.800 couldn't possibly defend the ultimate circularity of is to art, 786 00:57:23.119 --> 00:57:31.719 is to morality, which can only be God. He's gonna 787 00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:34.199 he can't, he can't do it, And I. 788 00:57:34.360 --> 00:57:36.920 Think I didn't express this particular point well enough on 789 00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:40.719 basically everything he was saying. You know, well, if you're 790 00:57:40.719 --> 00:57:43.840 an atheist, free will can't exist. If you're an atheist, 791 00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:46.280 you know, there's there's no way to get aught if 792 00:57:46.280 --> 00:57:47.840 you're an And I was just sort of like, yeah, 793 00:57:48.599 --> 00:57:50.840 like totally, you're you're you're right, But but where the 794 00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:52.679 hell are you getting it from? What difference does it 795 00:57:52.719 --> 00:57:55.039 make if if there's a god? And I think with 796 00:57:55.119 --> 00:57:59.079 the question even even if just to be clear, like 797 00:57:59.119 --> 00:58:01.559 there are sort of two questions to I mean, the 798 00:58:01.639 --> 00:58:06.559 question actually have written down, is or rather the subject 799 00:58:06.599 --> 00:58:09.159 to the statement, the question of why we ought to 800 00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:11.199 do anything aside from arbitrary p. 801 00:58:11.559 --> 00:58:15.360 Whoa, I had no idea. Rachel shout out to Rachel 802 00:58:15.400 --> 00:58:22.119 Wilson getting a question up on I didn't see that, 803 00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:31.440 Rachel spotted in the wild. Nice Alex O'Connor brings your 804 00:58:31.519 --> 00:58:33.920 question up, the question of why we ought to do 805 00:58:34.039 --> 00:58:37.719 anything aside from arbitrary preference right preference? 806 00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:40.159 And so there are sort of two questions hovering here. 807 00:58:40.239 --> 00:58:43.960 There's can atheists have a concept of aught? And I 808 00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:46.679 think it's legitimate to maybe say that, you know, the 809 00:58:46.719 --> 00:58:50.119 concept of aught can only come from God. But if 810 00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:52.280 the question specifically as can you get an aught from 811 00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:56.079 an is? Even God doesn't help you there or God does, 812 00:58:56.159 --> 00:58:59.239 is just gives you the aught to derive more aughts from. 813 00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:01.400 Yes, I mean I think, well, yeah, and that makes 814 00:59:01.400 --> 00:59:03.239 sense right because it's it's yeah. 815 00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:06.159 But here's here's my point is that when someone's arguing, 816 00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:10.840 they're already assuming and ought to be consistent by arguing 817 00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:15.760 the isart problem. So here they are debating the is 818 00:59:15.880 --> 00:59:21.719 aught while while while assuming an otness toward consistency. This 819 00:59:21.880 --> 00:59:26.239 is where atheism breaks down. If it's unavoidable to argue 820 00:59:26.480 --> 00:59:29.599 without assuming an oughtness to consistency and some sort of 821 00:59:29.679 --> 00:59:34.880 direction toward truth. If it's unavoidable, the atheist doesn't have 822 00:59:34.920 --> 00:59:42.320 any reason to pursue truth, and the Christian does. The 823 00:59:42.440 --> 00:59:48.159 Christian does have a position that's coherent toward truth. Why 824 00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:53.159 pursue truth? This is why it falls apart. The same 825 00:59:53.280 --> 00:59:56.920 reason why atheists don't like to be precept or tagged 826 00:59:57.000 --> 01:00:00.719 is because what's in question is why you're even standing 827 01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:03.519 in front of me arguing. From your view, can you 828 01:00:03.599 --> 01:00:08.280 even justify coming to the debate arena? Moving the needle 829 01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:12.239 toward truth. In the atheist world, it's descriptions of reality. 830 01:00:12.320 --> 01:00:15.800 In the Christian world, it's toward a being, a participation 831 01:00:16.559 --> 01:00:20.800 unity with the being, a likeness to the being, not 832 01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:25.840 descriptions of the world. They have no reason to show 833 01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:30.159 up for a debate. They're just saying, well, for the 834 01:00:30.199 --> 01:00:32.760 sake of business and the sake of traveling, the think 835 01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:36.159 of debating, I have an intellectual and Prouns mean we 836 01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:38.320 assume that we need to come to trade with me 837 01:00:38.679 --> 01:00:40.840 or to debate. Well, why debate? 838 01:00:40.960 --> 01:00:41.119 Then? 839 01:00:46.199 --> 01:00:50.000 Why debate? They're in their own conundrum right now. That's 840 01:00:50.039 --> 01:00:52.400 the difference between a Christian view and an atheist view 841 01:00:52.480 --> 01:00:56.880 is if you're arguing, is ought is something we ought 842 01:00:56.960 --> 01:01:04.079 to acknowledge the same way we ought to acknowledge it? Consistencies, fallacies, uh, wrong, wrong, 843 01:01:05.920 --> 01:01:11.960 the wrong approach to logic, in formal fallacies, the fact 844 01:01:11.960 --> 01:01:15.719 that you debate this stuff as intellectuals, in doing philosophy, 845 01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:21.320 you're already assuming and ought. If you want to be consistent, well, 846 01:01:21.320 --> 01:01:25.599 why be consistent? Then that's the ultimate defeat or to atheism, 847 01:01:26.159 --> 01:01:28.159 why come to truth? That's why when they call in 848 01:01:28.639 --> 01:01:31.159 and less and less of them do now, But you 849 01:01:31.280 --> 01:01:34.519 remember Danny, the little squeaky teacher called in and he's 850 01:01:34.599 --> 01:01:36.599 arguing about tag and stuff, and I said, yeah, well, 851 01:01:36.679 --> 01:01:39.719 the you know, forget X is the necessary precondition for 852 01:01:40.159 --> 01:01:44.920 why God, necessary precondition for knowledge for a second, why 853 01:01:45.159 --> 01:01:49.320 from your atheistic view, is an important to rearrange what 854 01:01:49.480 --> 01:01:54.880 people believe toward truthness whatever you call that. And they can't. 855 01:01:56.039 --> 01:02:03.360 They have no reason. I don't know. They say progress. Well, no, 856 01:02:03.480 --> 01:02:04.199 that's arbitrary. 857 01:02:05.480 --> 01:02:05.679 JB. 858 01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:08.760 Weezer says. I asked Breakfast Tacos how the universal quantum 859 01:02:08.800 --> 01:02:12.039 field theory could even minimally account for morality when by 860 01:02:12.159 --> 01:02:15.440 its own admission, it can't even model gravity, he refused, 861 01:02:15.519 --> 01:02:19.239 he won't answer direct questions. I do recommend many of 862 01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:21.719 you go to the Politics Discord and ask him the 863 01:02:21.800 --> 01:02:24.679 same hard hitting, simple questions that I have, and just 864 01:02:24.920 --> 01:02:30.119 flood him. Go there, flood him with the questions, simple 865 01:02:30.480 --> 01:02:33.400 simple questions for breakfast Taco in his own server, he 866 01:02:33.559 --> 01:02:38.920 runs the Politics Discord. I invite you flood the Politics 867 01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:44.480 Discord focusing on Breakfast tacos inability to answer a simple question. 868 01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:48.880 Is the arising of the sun not the rising the 869 01:02:49.000 --> 01:02:52.840 arising of it as an object from previous objects? Is 870 01:02:52.920 --> 01:02:53.760 that a process. 871 01:02:57.400 --> 01:03:00.800 It's the problem of the old problem. This is kind 872 01:03:00.840 --> 01:03:02.199 of controversial me to say, but I think it's a 873 01:03:02.239 --> 01:03:07.760 logical problem. Right, You're your attempt from an is because 874 01:03:08.039 --> 01:03:10.119 because of the idea that you know, basically, anything within 875 01:03:10.119 --> 01:03:13.199 the logical closure of the statements you write must in 876 01:03:13.400 --> 01:03:16.920 some way be contained within those original statements. Otherwise we 877 01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:19.360 would be doing otherwise we wouldn't be doing logic, would 878 01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:22.679 be doing something else, or we wouldn't be doing deduction, 879 01:03:22.760 --> 01:03:23.599 we'd be doing something else. 880 01:03:24.639 --> 01:03:27.719 Imagine they both had those mustaches. This would be very uncomfortable. 881 01:03:27.840 --> 01:03:30.920 Would suggest that it is. It is primarily it just 882 01:03:31.039 --> 01:03:32.000 is an intractable problem. 883 01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:32.199 Right. 884 01:03:32.239 --> 01:03:35.119 You cannot get an aught from an is because if 885 01:03:35.159 --> 01:03:37.800 you could via if you could get deductively go from 886 01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:40.480 is to aught, then the aught must have been there originally. 887 01:03:40.639 --> 01:03:42.519 Well, here's a question that I spoke about on a 888 01:03:42.599 --> 01:03:50.719 recent queen A Can you get an is from an aught? 889 01:03:52.519 --> 01:03:54.719 Because if you have an aught statement like you know, 890 01:03:54.920 --> 01:03:59.559 you ought, you know, like tidy the garden, then it 891 01:03:59.599 --> 01:04:02.559 does seem to contain within that the is statement that 892 01:04:02.639 --> 01:04:05.400 there is a garden, even even though it's like not 893 01:04:05.639 --> 01:04:08.639 really there explicitly, because the statement is just you ought to, 894 01:04:09.480 --> 01:04:11.960 you know, tidy the garden. It seems like you can say, 895 01:04:12.159 --> 01:04:14.159 therefore there is a garden. 896 01:04:14.480 --> 01:04:15.159 Yes, I think that. 897 01:04:16.159 --> 01:04:18.079 And if it were a logical problem, if it were 898 01:04:18.119 --> 01:04:19.679 like these are just two total. 899 01:04:20.079 --> 01:04:26.199 That's not deep. That's like saying, well, if I'm using 900 01:04:26.280 --> 01:04:30.320 words that refer to things we already assume exist. Does 901 01:04:30.360 --> 01:04:34.960 an art statement make a garden exist? No, you don't 902 01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:39.360 get the is from the art statement. You're you're saying, 903 01:04:39.519 --> 01:04:42.840 we ought to attend to the garden already assumes there's 904 01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:45.880 a garden. It's not after you make the statement. Are 905 01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:51.800 these people retarded? All caps? Breakfast Tacos? You fell into 906 01:04:51.840 --> 01:04:53.960 my trap? No you didn't. You didn't set a trap. 907 01:04:55.119 --> 01:04:58.480 You couldn't answer basic questions. Breakfast taco I already went 908 01:04:58.519 --> 01:04:58.800 over it. 909 01:04:58.880 --> 01:04:59.079 Dude. 910 01:05:01.280 --> 01:05:05.440 Your premise one is everything we observe to exist arises 911 01:05:05.519 --> 01:05:09.719 from previous stuff. I asked you, does regularity and nature 912 01:05:09.760 --> 01:05:13.519 exist as a phenomenon? You have to say yes. If 913 01:05:13.599 --> 01:05:17.679 it's true that the regularity of nature exists and we 914 01:05:17.800 --> 01:05:20.679 observe it, then you have to say the regularity of 915 01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:23.840 nature arises from previous stuff. And you can't do that. 916 01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:26.480 It's the end of your argument. Dude, that's why you 917 01:05:26.719 --> 01:05:28.840 fail to answer the question because you know it is. 918 01:05:30.360 --> 01:05:36.480 You said in our quote conversation Breakfast Tacos that what's 919 01:05:36.559 --> 01:05:39.639 more fundamental is that stuff arises from stuff. Well, that's 920 01:05:39.679 --> 01:05:46.760 a process. You said, the stuff arising from stuff developed 921 01:05:47.320 --> 01:05:50.519 the regularity. That's what you said. Can you imagine that 922 01:05:51.599 --> 01:05:55.360 you said the stuff arising from stuff developed the regularity. 923 01:05:55.440 --> 01:05:59.199 I'm sorry. The reason I asked, Breakfast Tacos is is 924 01:05:59.280 --> 01:06:02.480 if stuff arises from stuff is a process, which you 925 01:06:02.559 --> 01:06:06.000 fail to answer. The answer is yes, it's a process. 926 01:06:06.679 --> 01:06:11.800 That means stuff arises from stuff is regular That means 927 01:06:11.920 --> 01:06:17.920 your statement stuff arises from stuff develops regularity. It requires regularity. 928 01:06:17.960 --> 01:06:21.440 You can't say develop anything without regularity. So it's the 929 01:06:21.559 --> 01:06:24.480 end of your argument. Some of the atheists following you 930 01:06:24.639 --> 01:06:28.599 know this. Most of them don't, but it's the end 931 01:06:28.639 --> 01:06:33.199 of your argument. Your premise is flawed. Premise one is flawed. 932 01:06:35.360 --> 01:06:39.000 Another problem is you're attempting to make an inductive argument 933 01:06:39.000 --> 01:06:42.360 about particulars, and your conclusion isn't about a particular it's 934 01:06:42.360 --> 01:06:47.199 about a universal premise one. Everything we see to exist 935 01:06:47.320 --> 01:06:52.920 arises from previous stuff. Premise too. The universe exists. The 936 01:06:53.079 --> 01:06:57.960 universe isn't a particular therefore the universe arises from previous stuff. 937 01:06:58.000 --> 01:07:01.119 That's your argument. That's your argument. The problem with your 938 01:07:01.199 --> 01:07:04.039 argument is when you make an inductive argument about the 939 01:07:04.119 --> 01:07:07.440 particulars in the world, you can only conclude about other 940 01:07:07.559 --> 01:07:10.519 particulars in the world. That's what an inductive argument would be. 941 01:07:10.880 --> 01:07:13.280 I see particulars in the world act like this. Here's 942 01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:15.559 a particular in the world. I'm gonna assume it acts 943 01:07:15.599 --> 01:07:18.719 like that thing. That's an inductive argument. You can't say 944 01:07:18.760 --> 01:07:21.760 the particulars in the world act a certain way, therefore 945 01:07:21.840 --> 01:07:28.000 the whole acts the same way. That's a composition fallacy. 946 01:07:30.119 --> 01:07:35.679 So again, you got your breakfast tacos, got sent into 947 01:07:35.760 --> 01:07:38.840 the microwave by mister Jimbob, I put it on high 948 01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:44.119 for four minutes, and now you just have leftover components. 949 01:07:44.639 --> 01:07:49.199 It's over the fact that you failed to answer very 950 01:07:49.320 --> 01:07:55.960 basic cross examination questions means that you're not confident in 951 01:07:56.079 --> 01:07:59.320 your argument. The fact that you yelled, talked over me. 952 01:07:59.519 --> 01:08:05.360 You basically rage quit rage quitting is this You failed 953 01:08:05.639 --> 01:08:09.760 deliberately avoided questions and failed to answer questions simple as this. 954 01:08:10.400 --> 01:08:14.559 You couldn't answer whether the sun arising from previous stuff 955 01:08:14.800 --> 01:08:17.760 is itself a process? That's how simple the question was. Dude, 956 01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:21.079 he demonstrated bad faith. 957 01:08:21.520 --> 01:08:29.279 Okay, totally separate logical categories. Then it would seem like 958 01:08:29.680 --> 01:08:31.119 you wouldn't be able to go either way. 959 01:08:31.359 --> 01:08:32.720 Well, so as in the. 960 01:08:33.119 --> 01:08:35.720 Now, back to this, just to show how stupid what 961 01:08:35.920 --> 01:08:38.680 Alex just said. And this is a problem with high 962 01:08:38.800 --> 01:08:43.239 level philosophy. They assume each other our past stupid stupid statements. 963 01:08:43.359 --> 01:08:46.119 That's not none of us are past making stupid statements, 964 01:08:46.199 --> 01:08:49.560 none of us. But when your higher level philosophy, it's 965 01:08:49.600 --> 01:08:52.000 more likely that you're gonna assume someone didn't make a 966 01:08:52.039 --> 01:08:54.640 stupid statement. But he did, and the stupid statement was well, 967 01:08:54.920 --> 01:08:57.000 can't we get an is from an aught? So if 968 01:08:57.039 --> 01:09:00.720 I say we ought to tend to the garden, that 969 01:09:00.840 --> 01:09:06.600 doesn't necessitate a garden. That means the garden already existed 970 01:09:06.680 --> 01:09:10.279 as a referend So no, the aught statement about the garden, 971 01:09:10.840 --> 01:09:13.359 the garden would still exist even if you didn't need 972 01:09:13.439 --> 01:09:16.159 to tend to the garden. So the ought state and 973 01:09:16.319 --> 01:09:20.000 didn't produce the is of the garden. The garden existed 974 01:09:20.439 --> 01:09:22.880 as a reference that you can say tend to the 975 01:09:22.920 --> 01:09:25.439 garden or not tend to the garden. You can say, 976 01:09:25.760 --> 01:09:27.880 don't tend to the garden, and the garden still exists. 977 01:09:27.920 --> 01:09:35.920 So that was really stupid. You saw what happened, Mendoza. 978 01:09:36.800 --> 01:09:41.359 You saw the absolute destruction of breakfast tacos. Just just 979 01:09:42.720 --> 01:09:46.279 I just ripped, ripped it to shreds. Simple questions. That's 980 01:09:46.319 --> 01:09:51.840 what I'm learning, Simple questions, less talking, simple questions. Toast 981 01:09:53.640 --> 01:10:00.279 toasted tacos. He by the way, between the two of us, 982 01:10:00.359 --> 01:10:05.479 who did four to five consecutive COPE analysis streams of 983 01:10:05.560 --> 01:10:10.399 the conversation, me or you, Joy says ten dollars, Thank you, Joy. 984 01:10:10.439 --> 01:10:13.960 I wonder if they both tacked tacitly know if the 985 01:10:14.039 --> 01:10:16.399 other isn't being consistent or honest. Atheists tend to allow 986 01:10:16.439 --> 01:10:19.920 each other. I always say this, Joy. I think whether 987 01:10:20.000 --> 01:10:22.880 they know it or not, I don't know. But I 988 01:10:23.039 --> 01:10:27.399 find that theists, even general feists or umbrella Christians who 989 01:10:27.520 --> 01:10:29.960 kind of you know, debate each other. They don't let 990 01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:33.439 each other off the hook just because they kind of 991 01:10:33.920 --> 01:10:38.039 wholesale agree with each other's general assumptions about the reality 992 01:10:38.079 --> 01:10:40.840 about a Christian view or whatever. They don't let each 993 01:10:40.840 --> 01:10:43.680 other off the hook. I mean they infight a lot. 994 01:10:45.760 --> 01:10:47.119 They don't do this in atheism. 995 01:10:47.199 --> 01:10:49.479 There it would be if you were saying you ought 996 01:10:49.640 --> 01:10:54.199 to tidy the golden someone might respond by saying, well, 997 01:10:54.600 --> 01:10:56.119 the reason you can get it there is a golden 998 01:10:56.159 --> 01:10:59.279 from there is because within the you alt to tidy 999 01:10:59.319 --> 01:11:03.279 the goblin is the sub idea that the garden exists. Right, 1000 01:11:03.319 --> 01:11:05.720 it's and it's it's sort of a it's just sort 1001 01:11:05.720 --> 01:11:08.159 of within the within the constraints of deductive logic. 1002 01:11:08.279 --> 01:11:11.039 That but maybe because like I mean, that was really 1003 01:11:11.760 --> 01:11:12.720 he just corrected him. 1004 01:11:12.760 --> 01:11:16.039 But like it could be incorrect that there exists a garden. 1005 01:11:16.079 --> 01:11:18.960 Somebody could could think you ought to tie to the garden. 1006 01:11:18.760 --> 01:11:21.119 And this is where you have to go five dollars, 1007 01:11:21.399 --> 01:11:23.479 Thank you so much, Bob Chat. The fact that Breakfast 1008 01:11:23.560 --> 01:11:26.680 Tacos is listening, probably recording for specific responses instead of 1009 01:11:26.720 --> 01:11:28.920 engaging in debate and discussion shows he's not about truth 1010 01:11:28.960 --> 01:11:29.359 but ego. 1011 01:11:29.920 --> 01:11:30.159 He is. 1012 01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:33.960 Yeah, he's he's doing a pig snake approach, right, you 1013 01:11:34.319 --> 01:11:37.800 fill the pig snake. He can engage with my cross examination. 1014 01:11:38.000 --> 01:11:40.119 That's all we need to know. He can do all 1015 01:11:40.199 --> 01:11:42.319 this other stuff. He could do all this ranting and 1016 01:11:42.399 --> 01:11:52.600 raving he cannot engage with very basic questions like is 1017 01:11:52.720 --> 01:11:54.760 the sun arising from previous matter? 1018 01:11:54.840 --> 01:11:58.640 A process be wrong but still derived from that, I guess, 1019 01:11:58.680 --> 01:12:01.079 I guess, like okay, to fine, like it like sub 1020 01:12:01.199 --> 01:12:04.319 contains the like assertion that a god can exist. 1021 01:12:04.439 --> 01:12:07.640 Oh stop, Alex, just stop it ultra void five dollars. 1022 01:12:07.680 --> 01:12:10.000 Professor Tacos tell him that the statement has changed to 1023 01:12:10.159 --> 01:12:13.760 stuff evolves from previous stuff. Right, Yeah, well he also 1024 01:12:13.880 --> 01:12:15.359 changed his argument a little bit. 1025 01:12:18.399 --> 01:12:20.199 But is there any way for somebody to say that 1026 01:12:20.319 --> 01:12:23.720 some is statements sort of subcontain automatic ords. 1027 01:12:23.800 --> 01:12:25.439 Well, I think that is kind of what the theists. 1028 01:12:25.720 --> 01:12:27.399 That is kind of a theist position, right, because if 1029 01:12:27.439 --> 01:12:30.760 as in what it is a position that if it 1030 01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:33.960 gets in called to solve morality, then that is part 1031 01:12:33.960 --> 01:12:35.479 of your position, right, because you're saying. 1032 01:12:36.399 --> 01:12:42.319 Well, not just that using God is a better explanation 1033 01:12:42.479 --> 01:12:46.039 for why we ought to pursue truthful beliefs or true 1034 01:12:46.239 --> 01:12:50.079 statements about reality. The atheist has no reason this is 1035 01:12:50.560 --> 01:12:55.800 so this whole thing can an atheists in and off 1036 01:12:55.800 --> 01:13:01.520 from is explain divine senses worked civilization guide to truth 1037 01:13:01.640 --> 01:13:04.640 that might exist? I mean their section in trusting human 1038 01:13:04.720 --> 01:13:07.119 rational as a guide to truth might cover this. Where 1039 01:13:07.159 --> 01:13:08.960 do the laws from logic come from? That's a good one. 1040 01:13:09.000 --> 01:13:11.359 What's consciousness of great we'll get to all these What 1041 01:13:11.800 --> 01:13:14.279 one question that's brutal that you don't need any of 1042 01:13:14.319 --> 01:13:17.319 these other questions for. So there's actually one question the 1043 01:13:17.359 --> 01:13:21.199 atheists can't answer. That the fact that they can't answer 1044 01:13:21.239 --> 01:13:25.279 this one question any other question in this video that's listed, 1045 01:13:25.359 --> 01:13:28.560 it doesn't really matter. And the one question they can't 1046 01:13:28.560 --> 01:13:32.279 answer that renders all the other questions in this video 1047 01:13:32.760 --> 01:13:39.399 irrelevant or secondary at best, is why ought we come 1048 01:13:39.520 --> 01:13:43.720 to truth? Why ought we pursue truth? This is a 1049 01:13:43.800 --> 01:13:56.079 teleological question. Teleology and ontology are It's a cryptonite. It's 1050 01:13:56.119 --> 01:13:58.960 a kryptonite. Now, would someone say epistemology too, because the 1051 01:13:59.039 --> 01:14:04.560 atheist has to take an autonomous approach, but ontologies. You 1052 01:14:04.600 --> 01:14:10.439 couldn't even do epistemology without referring to the ontological status 1053 01:14:10.520 --> 01:14:13.520 of things that aren't identical to nature, which is impossible 1054 01:14:13.520 --> 01:14:17.319 from the atheist view too. But why should we pursue truth? 1055 01:14:17.479 --> 01:14:21.359 Is the end game? It's what Bonson argued. But he 1056 01:14:21.600 --> 01:14:25.760 argued when he debated from a materialist position that the 1057 01:14:25.880 --> 01:14:30.880 consequence of strict materialism and mechanistic universe produces an atheist 1058 01:14:30.920 --> 01:14:33.800 that just shows up to the debate. But it's not 1059 01:14:33.880 --> 01:14:37.000 really them debating, and there's no reason to debate. It's 1060 01:14:37.159 --> 01:14:39.560 just that he can't help himself because there is no himself. 1061 01:14:39.960 --> 01:14:43.479 There's just a meat sack. That's the end of the debate. 1062 01:14:44.520 --> 01:14:47.279 You're coming to the debate and your opening statement is 1063 01:14:47.359 --> 01:14:50.279 I'm a meat sack who has no knowledge of what 1064 01:14:50.359 --> 01:14:52.640 I'm saying is true. It's just an effect of physics 1065 01:14:52.760 --> 01:14:57.439 and everything is determined. I'm not even here. 1066 01:14:58.000 --> 01:15:03.279 Basically, well, Gold's will is good, you know, that's in 1067 01:15:03.680 --> 01:15:05.680 that that that that is in. It's not that I 1068 01:15:05.720 --> 01:15:07.920 think that you can't have mixed is old statements. Is 1069 01:15:07.960 --> 01:15:09.680 that I think that if you just have his statements 1070 01:15:09.920 --> 01:15:11.800 getting an alt it seems like it's. 1071 01:15:11.680 --> 01:15:16.119 A George tacobis sure Taco Lips Rising nine ninety nine 1072 01:15:16.199 --> 01:15:18.760 says it. It's like that libertarian guy you had on 1073 01:15:18.880 --> 01:15:22.439 with Jay and Chad. I'm not an atheist, Chad goes, 1074 01:15:22.600 --> 01:15:35.239 how dumb? Becky, right right, No, you are, yeast. The 1075 01:15:35.359 --> 01:15:38.319 breakfast Tacos also get roasted in the chat. Dude, We're 1076 01:15:38.359 --> 01:15:40.920 not falling for your nonsense. It works on your dumb audience. 1077 01:15:41.119 --> 01:15:43.600 It doesn't work on mine. My audience is smarter than yours. 1078 01:15:47.199 --> 01:15:49.760 My audience is way smarter than yours. They saw the exchange. 1079 01:15:50.119 --> 01:15:52.000 I don't need to you know, there's not even a 1080 01:15:52.119 --> 01:15:55.079 need to do like you know, subsequent videos about it. 1081 01:15:55.560 --> 01:15:58.600 They saw your inability to answer basic questions. 1082 01:15:58.720 --> 01:16:00.520 It seems like a problem that strikes me likely to 1083 01:16:00.560 --> 01:16:03.039 be intractable. I'm not saying it definitely is wrong. 1084 01:16:03.319 --> 01:16:03.800 So maybe what. 1085 01:16:04.199 --> 01:16:11.720 Theism does here is imparts certain is statements. Next question, 1086 01:16:13.359 --> 01:16:18.920 how can you explain census divinitatis, which I believe is 1087 01:16:18.960 --> 01:16:22.520 a term coined by John Calvin to describe the sense 1088 01:16:22.960 --> 01:16:24.960 of the divine that I'm not doing. 1089 01:16:25.000 --> 01:16:27.479 There's another question we're not going to engage with Calvinism. 1090 01:16:29.119 --> 01:16:32.039 Provide me with a single civilization that has ever succeeded 1091 01:16:32.159 --> 01:16:36.680 under an atheistic paradigm. Also, name me a civilization that 1092 01:16:36.800 --> 01:16:41.479 has come into being without a preceding binding myth. So 1093 01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:43.199 this practical question, like. 1094 01:16:43.279 --> 01:16:45.279 Yeah, yeah, this is a good question, and I don't 1095 01:16:45.279 --> 01:16:47.159 know if they'll cover it, but you know, if you guys, 1096 01:16:47.239 --> 01:16:51.079 remember Jay Dyer was on my mixed Bag and Derek 1097 01:16:51.159 --> 01:16:53.760 from myth Vision was on there. And it was pretty 1098 01:16:53.840 --> 01:16:56.840 much a soft conversation, and then Jay came on challenged 1099 01:16:56.920 --> 01:17:02.279 him on his assumption of the path and the definition 1100 01:17:02.399 --> 01:17:06.079 of a myth, according to the atheists, ultimately will lead 1101 01:17:06.159 --> 01:17:12.279 them to accepting that they have a myth uh position 1102 01:17:12.479 --> 01:17:17.039 on the past and progress of the future. So they 1103 01:17:17.119 --> 01:17:21.239 do they do engage with myth from their own by 1104 01:17:21.279 --> 01:17:23.079 their own standards, they engage with myth. 1105 01:17:25.079 --> 01:17:27.680 How does the atheists respond to the fact, like implied 1106 01:17:27.720 --> 01:17:30.039 in this question, that there's never been a successful atheist 1107 01:17:30.079 --> 01:17:32.479 in paradigm, and that there's never been this is big 1108 01:17:32.520 --> 01:17:35.720 brain down, hasn't had some kind of like mythological founding. 1109 01:17:36.399 --> 01:17:38.199 I suppose that, I mean one. I mean, obviously I'm 1110 01:17:38.199 --> 01:17:40.039 not an anthropologists, so all of these ants are going 1111 01:17:40.079 --> 01:17:41.920 to be teriably unreliable and you shouldn't listen to me. 1112 01:17:42.279 --> 01:17:45.800 But oh no, no, no, they're not the onst thing 1113 01:17:45.800 --> 01:17:46.520 I would point out here. 1114 01:17:46.760 --> 01:17:48.840 I don't think tacos are you know, if you say 1115 01:17:48.920 --> 01:17:52.520 we're having tacos for breakfast. The fact that you have 1116 01:17:52.600 --> 01:17:55.439 to say we're having tacos for breakfast and it doesn't 1117 01:17:55.439 --> 01:17:58.079 occur as redundant means it's not really in the realm 1118 01:17:58.119 --> 01:18:02.119 of breakfast, Johnny, Now, is it awesome to have pizza 1119 01:18:02.199 --> 01:18:07.199 for breakfast? And yeah, but when you have it, there's 1120 01:18:07.279 --> 01:18:10.960 no family who wakes up and when they say, you know, 1121 01:18:11.119 --> 01:18:15.039 breakfast is ready, that there's not someone one or two 1122 01:18:15.079 --> 01:18:17.000 people in the family who go, oh my gosh, tacos 1123 01:18:17.039 --> 01:18:20.439 for breakfast. That reaction means that it's out of the ordinary. 1124 01:18:21.119 --> 01:18:25.760 So they're not a breakfast food. That's why it's special 1125 01:18:26.000 --> 01:18:30.800 to have them for breakfast. You know what I mean, 1126 01:18:32.800 --> 01:18:37.960 breakfast burrito. When you say a burrito, a breakfast burrito, 1127 01:18:38.079 --> 01:18:41.560 now you've made the jump. But when you say a 1128 01:18:41.640 --> 01:18:46.079 breakfast tacos, it's just not as assimilated a breakfast A 1129 01:18:46.159 --> 01:18:51.640 breakfast burrito is very assimilated. A breakfast taco hasn't made 1130 01:18:51.680 --> 01:18:55.279 the jump, hasn't done its truons. It's a full transition. 1131 01:18:59.159 --> 01:18:59.319 You know. 1132 01:18:59.560 --> 01:19:01.800 I'm not of those people that as long as you're 1133 01:19:01.840 --> 01:19:03.439 sitting on something it's a chair. 1134 01:19:03.920 --> 01:19:06.520 There was that this This this at least implies that, 1135 01:19:06.720 --> 01:19:09.199 like I mean, the way the question says, also name 1136 01:19:09.239 --> 01:19:11.680 me a civilization that has come into being without a 1137 01:19:11.720 --> 01:19:14.600 preceding binding myth well prompt that it might not be true. 1138 01:19:14.640 --> 01:19:15.439 Also preceding it. 1139 01:19:16.079 --> 01:19:18.479 I think it may find the video Calvinism or Calvin 1140 01:19:18.600 --> 01:19:22.720 Nislam interesting. That's that is interesting because I I always 1141 01:19:23.239 --> 01:19:25.520 make that correlation. I'm sure I'm not the only. 1142 01:19:25.399 --> 01:19:28.199 Ones interesting that right, because I suppose that that's that 1143 01:19:28.319 --> 01:19:30.039 might be a sort of chicken eg problem. I'm something 1144 01:19:30.119 --> 01:19:30.640 interesting that. 1145 01:19:30.840 --> 01:19:36.199 Chicken over the egg? Well, it's a hot boiled egg 1146 01:19:36.600 --> 01:19:39.399 in a little bowl, eat with a tiny spoon to 1147 01:19:39.479 --> 01:19:41.640 nubble it for four months. Good lord. These two remind 1148 01:19:41.720 --> 01:19:43.880 me of the old c Span panel where people just 1149 01:19:43.960 --> 01:19:46.159 speak in monotone. It puts you to sleep. I'm sorry, 1150 01:19:46.239 --> 01:19:49.560 we have to cover it. I agree, though, ultra void 1151 01:19:49.600 --> 01:19:51.680 five dollars. I have request? Can you can you slow 1152 01:19:51.720 --> 01:19:54.119 down how fast you to bunk breakfast tacos? I don't 1153 01:19:54.159 --> 01:19:56.760 want to figure out a new topic for my super chats. 1154 01:19:56.800 --> 01:20:02.000 That's funny, ah, breakfast talk goes hey, breakfast Ta goes. 1155 01:20:02.159 --> 01:20:05.680 I jumped on your panel. How about you come onto 1156 01:20:05.800 --> 01:20:06.399 my channel? 1157 01:20:06.479 --> 01:20:06.640 Now? 1158 01:20:07.119 --> 01:20:12.920 Okay, I went to your little server. You owe me one. 1159 01:20:13.479 --> 01:20:15.680 Get one of your people to come and defend your argument. 1160 01:20:15.960 --> 01:20:17.960 Interest conservations as he thought that we often got CAUs 1161 01:20:18.000 --> 01:20:20.880 as an effects really confused. So like you know, again, 1162 01:20:21.399 --> 01:20:23.640 come on to essential issues in a second, like I'm not. 1163 01:20:23.640 --> 01:20:25.840 Gonna cover this part. The question is has there ever 1164 01:20:25.920 --> 01:20:32.359 been an atheist civilization that really that really planted its 1165 01:20:32.399 --> 01:20:35.399 feet and was long lasting without some sort of mythos? 1166 01:20:35.479 --> 01:20:37.479 I don't think there has been, but that's not a 1167 01:20:37.560 --> 01:20:41.239 great argument for whether it's true or not, which ultimately, 1168 01:20:41.479 --> 01:20:45.319 when you're debating an atheist about anything, again, the only 1169 01:20:45.439 --> 01:20:49.640 really important starting point is, let's say something's not true, 1170 01:20:49.800 --> 01:20:52.319 why should I pursue the true part of it? 1171 01:20:52.640 --> 01:20:52.760 Right? 1172 01:20:53.119 --> 01:20:56.119 This was again I keep going back to Andrew's quote 1173 01:20:56.560 --> 01:20:59.159 almost debate with Dilla Hunty, where he just said, you 1174 01:20:59.199 --> 01:21:03.720 know what I'm gonna grant, Christianity is a complete delusion. 1175 01:21:03.920 --> 01:21:10.399 We're a bunch of delusional retards. Why why should we 1176 01:21:10.520 --> 01:21:15.520 avoid true beliefs? The question is if a secularism, if 1177 01:21:15.560 --> 01:21:19.600 an atheism is true, If secularism is true, then what 1178 01:21:19.720 --> 01:21:23.600 if you came to just the pragmatic application of a 1179 01:21:23.680 --> 01:21:27.479 Christian ethical system and you didn't believe anything, How could 1180 01:21:27.520 --> 01:21:31.760 you possibly argue against it? Well we saw that you 1181 01:21:31.880 --> 01:21:41.000 can't because Matt Della Hunty ran out, you can't. They 1182 01:21:41.039 --> 01:21:44.239 can't argue why you should pursue truth? If Ultimately, the 1183 01:21:44.279 --> 01:21:47.399 goal of pursuing truth from their view is pragmatism, and 1184 01:21:47.520 --> 01:21:50.000 it could be very pragmatic to believe false things. It's 1185 01:21:50.039 --> 01:21:50.800 the end of their argument. 1186 01:21:50.800 --> 01:21:51.239 It's over. 1187 01:21:54.119 --> 01:21:55.920 Toast toasted tacos Uh. 1188 01:21:56.199 --> 01:22:00.279 He thought that it wasn't that ninistic people. He wasn't 1189 01:22:00.319 --> 01:22:02.800 that a belief in God led sorry, disbelieving. It wasn't 1190 01:22:02.800 --> 01:22:05.680 necessarily that a disbelief in values led to nihilism. He 1191 01:22:05.800 --> 01:22:10.039 was pursuing the door emotionally because of the disorganization of 1192 01:22:10.079 --> 01:22:12.079 their wills, and then it didn't make sense for them 1193 01:22:12.119 --> 01:22:13.680 to value things. And it's like, you know that that 1194 01:22:14.000 --> 01:22:14.640 he had a kind of. 1195 01:22:16.479 --> 01:22:18.600 You're going to need to make full statements, vegan, or 1196 01:22:18.640 --> 01:22:24.159 I'm going to ban you. I like this new method 1197 01:22:24.279 --> 01:22:26.720 I have is if if someone says stuff in the 1198 01:22:26.840 --> 01:22:29.880 chat and I feel inclined to bring them on to 1199 01:22:29.960 --> 01:22:32.520 defend their statements, and they don't come on, they get 1200 01:22:32.640 --> 01:22:38.039 kicked out of out of George Landia, George Tacolyp's Rising, 1201 01:22:38.079 --> 01:22:40.399 four ninety nine. It's true. I think she's a lady. 1202 01:22:41.119 --> 01:22:46.079 I think she's a lady. I'm not convinced. I'm not 1203 01:22:46.239 --> 01:22:47.359 convinced she's not a lady. 1204 01:22:50.760 --> 01:22:53.760 To, you know, simplifying somewhat, but was broadly someone who 1205 01:22:53.840 --> 01:22:56.039 just thought, well, my will inherently has value, Like, what 1206 01:22:56.119 --> 01:22:58.439 do you mean my will doesn't have value? I want something? 1207 01:22:58.720 --> 01:23:00.800 What moude can you ask of me? And so and 1208 01:23:00.880 --> 01:23:04.119 that's so. And to bring it back to this question, 1209 01:23:04.920 --> 01:23:07.239 one potential atheist answer is to say, well, yeah, if 1210 01:23:07.239 --> 01:23:09.560 you get if you get a group of people together 1211 01:23:09.600 --> 01:23:11.880 in a room of really any significant size, they'll come 1212 01:23:11.960 --> 01:23:15.159 up with with all sorts of like awesome ideas and 1213 01:23:15.279 --> 01:23:19.399 and and it could be that the civilization begets a family. 1214 01:23:19.640 --> 01:23:21.039 If there's no God, there's no divining. 1215 01:23:21.399 --> 01:23:23.000 So yeah, he just admitted that if you get a 1216 01:23:23.039 --> 01:23:24.399 bunch of people in the room, if they come up 1217 01:23:24.399 --> 01:23:27.359 with a bunch of ideas, the only question is why 1218 01:23:27.399 --> 01:23:31.720 abandon uh false ideas if they actually serve utility. You 1219 01:23:31.760 --> 01:23:34.399 can't answer that from an atheist perspective. That's a better question. 1220 01:23:36.840 --> 01:23:41.039 If false beliefs can produce utility. From an atheist perspective, 1221 01:23:42.319 --> 01:23:45.600 a question is why abandon the false beliefs. They can't 1222 01:23:45.600 --> 01:23:48.239 answer that question. That's way more, way more of a 1223 01:23:48.319 --> 01:23:49.000 crucial question. 1224 01:23:49.119 --> 01:23:53.319 He's atheist divine guiding principle. Just to sort of lay 1225 01:23:53.399 --> 01:23:58.000 this out for the materialist, like the brain is just 1226 01:23:58.039 --> 01:24:00.640 a bunch of atoms bumping into each other. It's just 1227 01:24:00.720 --> 01:24:02.159 like it's kind of like a rock. 1228 01:24:02.359 --> 01:24:04.199 That's the end of his all right, this is the 1229 01:24:04.359 --> 01:24:10.800 end of fucking Alex's position here. It's amazing how they'll 1230 01:24:10.840 --> 01:24:15.079 say this and then they'll follow without the entailment of that. 1231 01:24:15.159 --> 01:24:17.159 They'll just be like, the brain is just a bumping 1232 01:24:17.239 --> 01:24:20.800 bumping particles, right, bumping particles. We have no say in 1233 01:24:20.840 --> 01:24:25.479 the matter, you know, Evaluation it's more bumping particles. Evaluation 1234 01:24:25.600 --> 01:24:30.359 of those. Evaluation is more bumping particles, and we're basically arguing. Okay, 1235 01:24:30.399 --> 01:24:32.159 I want to see where he goes with this. The 1236 01:24:32.279 --> 01:24:35.479 covenant theology of Christianity is the false part that I reject. 1237 01:24:35.680 --> 01:24:38.680 The ethical system is not the problem. Well, I mean 1238 01:24:41.000 --> 01:24:43.199 these are I don't know if you're late here, but 1239 01:24:44.159 --> 01:24:48.479 you can't really argue for pursuing the truthfulness of an 1240 01:24:48.520 --> 01:24:55.479 ethical system, right, So rejecting false things in your system 1241 01:24:55.680 --> 01:24:59.520 is an ethical system. So you have embedded a meta 1242 01:24:59.560 --> 01:25:03.399 ethical position because everyone does that. You ought to pursue 1243 01:25:03.720 --> 01:25:06.239 the truth things. Now you pointed out something you think 1244 01:25:06.359 --> 01:25:09.000 is false and you reject it. That assumes that you 1245 01:25:09.119 --> 01:25:14.079 ought reject false things, right, should we reject false things 1246 01:25:14.159 --> 01:25:17.680 or not? If we shouldn't reject false things, And it's 1247 01:25:17.680 --> 01:25:20.319 all arbitrary. It doesn't matter that you reject the something 1248 01:25:20.359 --> 01:25:25.039 you find false the ethical system. You can't divorce the 1249 01:25:25.119 --> 01:25:28.560 ethical system big tech from your pursuit of true beliefs 1250 01:25:29.520 --> 01:25:34.279 because the act of engaging in argumentation towards something called truth, 1251 01:25:34.319 --> 01:25:37.199 you're already assuming an aught claim that you should be consistent. 1252 01:25:38.000 --> 01:25:42.239 So where do you get without the theology of Christianity, 1253 01:25:42.720 --> 01:25:46.000 Where do you get the oughtness toward truth? You don't 1254 01:25:46.039 --> 01:25:48.760 have one, at which case, if you don't have one, 1255 01:25:49.039 --> 01:25:51.479 there's really no debate. There's really no point in debating 1256 01:25:51.600 --> 01:25:54.159 the false parts of Christianity or the ethical parts that 1257 01:25:54.279 --> 01:25:58.760 you agree with, because when it comes down to it, 1258 01:25:58.880 --> 01:26:02.199 you don't have a standard, a basis, a justification for 1259 01:26:02.319 --> 01:26:07.279 your meta ethical oughtness toward the truth. Anyway, it doesn't matter, 1260 01:26:08.640 --> 01:26:14.039 just doesn't matter. The Coptic Orthodox Christians disagree, Well, that 1261 01:26:14.159 --> 01:26:17.479 doesn't matter because we reject the Coptic Coptics anyway, So 1262 01:26:17.720 --> 01:26:21.960 that says nothing. That's like saying, there's another church that 1263 01:26:22.119 --> 01:26:25.439 started that that abides by some of the traditions and 1264 01:26:26.000 --> 01:26:28.159 some of the theology, but not all of it that 1265 01:26:28.399 --> 01:26:32.279 disagrees with veganism or your beliefs on veganism that doesn't 1266 01:26:32.560 --> 01:26:37.000 mean anything to us, okay, or a. 1267 01:26:37.000 --> 01:26:39.000 Piece of wood or something that happens to have developed 1268 01:26:39.000 --> 01:26:40.560 this weird thing cool consciousness. 1269 01:26:40.640 --> 01:26:48.239 But so non Christians can't justify we ought not do things. Yes, 1270 01:26:48.600 --> 01:26:55.399 you can't, not from a moral position. No, no, you 1271 01:26:55.560 --> 01:26:59.399 just prefer it, right, Your justification ends up being at 1272 01:26:59.479 --> 01:27:01.960 best a reference Like I prefer not to be harmed, 1273 01:27:02.000 --> 01:27:03.920 but there are people who do like to be harmed. 1274 01:27:04.279 --> 01:27:06.880 So if it's reciprocal, if you're arguing some sort of 1275 01:27:06.960 --> 01:27:11.319 reciprocal metathical position, the moments where people want to do harm, 1276 01:27:12.039 --> 01:27:15.039 it follows that you can do harm to them because 1277 01:27:15.039 --> 01:27:18.439 they want it. So until while ten dollars, thank you 1278 01:27:18.520 --> 01:27:21.119 so much. I'm working but listening. Thanks for the great content. Jimbob, 1279 01:27:21.159 --> 01:27:25.640 Breakfast Talk Beard, Sorry, breakfast burritos are better than breakfast tacos, 1280 01:27:25.640 --> 01:27:29.079 I agree, easier to eat tacos in general. Like if 1281 01:27:29.079 --> 01:27:31.319 you don't have a beer and you're just you know, 1282 01:27:31.399 --> 01:27:33.800 accept it, you know, accepting the sloppiness of it, Like 1283 01:27:33.880 --> 01:27:38.119 it's some shitty restaurant or whatever table whatever. It's silly 1284 01:27:38.199 --> 01:27:44.239 to eat tacos. Honestly, it's like burritos. A burrito is contained, 1285 01:27:44.279 --> 01:27:47.560 it's a proper technology. A burrito is just a better 1286 01:27:48.479 --> 01:27:54.439 or organized taco. Anyway, let's face it, Mexicans, I mean, 1287 01:27:54.520 --> 01:27:57.000 this has been covered so many times as a cliche 1288 01:27:57.079 --> 01:28:03.079 at this point, Mexicans have really no food. They have 1289 01:28:03.279 --> 01:28:07.279 three things. They have no food. They somehow convinced everybody 1290 01:28:08.359 --> 01:28:12.640 that they have a variety of food. They don't. They don't. 1291 01:28:14.920 --> 01:28:17.800 It's tasty, but don't pretend it's a variety, like. 1292 01:28:18.319 --> 01:28:20.279 It seems no necessary reason why it would have to 1293 01:28:20.359 --> 01:28:22.079 be formed in relation to truth. 1294 01:28:22.960 --> 01:28:25.359 Like we were just talking a. 1295 01:28:25.359 --> 01:28:27.560 Moment ago about how it makes sense to believe certain 1296 01:28:27.600 --> 01:28:30.199 things that are false because it's like beneficial for us. 1297 01:28:30.239 --> 01:28:31.359 There we go, there we go. 1298 01:28:31.720 --> 01:28:34.359 If it happens to be true that that actually applied 1299 01:28:34.399 --> 01:28:36.920 writ large to things like the laws of logic and 1300 01:28:36.960 --> 01:28:42.239 mathematical truths, we literally be incapable of knowing because it 1301 01:28:42.399 --> 01:28:45.439 might be the case that it's not the two plus 1302 01:28:45.479 --> 01:28:48.079 two equals four. It's that believing two plus two equals 1303 01:28:48.119 --> 01:28:52.159 four is beneficial for my survival. And that's why my rationality. 1304 01:28:52.279 --> 01:28:55.439 Now this is planting. This is parallel to planting goes 1305 01:28:56.000 --> 01:29:00.479 argument evolutionary argument against the truth essentially, which is saying 1306 01:29:00.560 --> 01:29:04.960 that evolution as a process doesn't pursue truths. Ultimately, it 1307 01:29:05.319 --> 01:29:08.359 can come to well, the truth about the external world 1308 01:29:08.399 --> 01:29:10.800 and I'm gonna survive, So there are some fundamental truths 1309 01:29:10.840 --> 01:29:14.960 there that it does from its paradigm say well, no, 1310 01:29:15.079 --> 01:29:16.800 it has to come to the truth that there's a 1311 01:29:16.960 --> 01:29:19.920 threat out in the world, right. If it's gonna survive, 1312 01:29:21.239 --> 01:29:25.000 it needs to determine threat. So that's true, that's a truth, 1313 01:29:25.800 --> 01:29:29.720 but ultimately, like philosophical truths, it's not the ultimate goal. 1314 01:29:29.800 --> 01:29:32.279 Survival is the goal. So if it if there was 1315 01:29:32.319 --> 01:29:38.479 an event or a circumstance where believing something false like 1316 01:29:38.640 --> 01:29:42.840 paranoia in the jungle did in fact keep you safe, Like, 1317 01:29:42.960 --> 01:29:45.800 for instance, you thought there was a lion tracking you 1318 01:29:46.159 --> 01:29:48.840 that wasn't true, or ty panther tracking you through the 1319 01:29:48.920 --> 01:29:52.119 jungle it wasn't true. It turned out that it was 1320 01:29:52.199 --> 01:29:55.560 something else that you were able to defend against. But 1321 01:29:55.680 --> 01:29:59.880 you actually your preparation was based on a lie, something 1322 01:30:00.079 --> 01:30:06.039 not true. Are you saying burritos evolved from tacus? I'm 1323 01:30:06.079 --> 01:30:09.279 not actually sure what came first. That's a chat GPT 1324 01:30:09.840 --> 01:30:15.119 Mexican style, thank you for the five dollars. Cringe veganism, 1325 01:30:15.199 --> 01:30:19.279 there's I think cringe and veganism are redundancy, redund. 1326 01:30:18.960 --> 01:30:21.119 Believe that kind of thing, and somebody will come along 1327 01:30:21.159 --> 01:30:24.079 and say, yeah, but hold on, like you know, it 1328 01:30:24.239 --> 01:30:28.000 just can't like my brain just can't conceive of the opposite, 1329 01:30:28.319 --> 01:30:29.840 like we can know it to be true, Albayori, And 1330 01:30:29.840 --> 01:30:33.199 I'm like, that's because that's how your brain evolved. Right, 1331 01:30:33.439 --> 01:30:36.199 there were people who believed the two plus two is fine. 1332 01:30:36.359 --> 01:30:38.640 Here's the problem with his view, which I use as 1333 01:30:38.680 --> 01:30:41.279 a defeater to all of these people, which comes up 1334 01:30:41.319 --> 01:30:43.000 a lot. Came up with Big Tech and the other 1335 01:30:43.079 --> 01:30:47.800 dude in the in the in the spaces conversation. No, 1336 01:30:48.239 --> 01:30:51.239 he's arguing whether or not believing the laws of thought, 1337 01:30:51.880 --> 01:30:55.119 mathematic math being derivative of the laws of thought. Right, 1338 01:30:56.720 --> 01:31:00.479 the sister, the sister to the laws of logic in 1339 01:31:01.279 --> 01:31:07.279 its expression, would be math. No, we didn't develop to 1340 01:31:07.439 --> 01:31:10.560 believe the laws of thought because under an evolutionary view, 1341 01:31:10.640 --> 01:31:16.520 Alex O'Connor, the very process of evolution, if it produced 1342 01:31:16.560 --> 01:31:21.239 a brain and rationality, needed to abide by those laws, 1343 01:31:21.720 --> 01:31:24.319 and those laws are not found in nature, they're conceptual. 1344 01:31:24.399 --> 01:31:28.239 So now you have a mind dependent concept that has 1345 01:31:28.319 --> 01:31:36.800 its own ontology before your own brain exists. He's acting 1346 01:31:37.000 --> 01:31:40.760 like the laws of thought are identical to the descriptions 1347 01:31:41.520 --> 01:31:45.920 that our brain, in its development enabled us to discern. Well, no, 1348 01:31:46.000 --> 01:31:49.520 if we're discerning something, that means it existed before we 1349 01:31:49.640 --> 01:31:52.039 discerned it. We didn't discern it into existence. 1350 01:31:54.039 --> 01:31:56.760 It's just that believing that was not beneficial to the survival, 1351 01:31:56.800 --> 01:31:58.920 and so they died out, leaving only us. Now people 1352 01:31:58.960 --> 01:32:00.680 will want to say, like, this is stupid. What do 1353 01:32:00.720 --> 01:32:02.640 you mean that the reason they died out and the 1354 01:32:02.760 --> 01:32:06.199 reason why believing two plus two equals five was not 1355 01:32:06.319 --> 01:32:09.039 beneficial to the survival was because it's not true. 1356 01:32:10.239 --> 01:32:13.880 Do you think design designer argument refutes the non smart atheists? 1357 01:32:15.119 --> 01:32:24.800 Not necessarily, because someone could do a very basic bitch 1358 01:32:25.000 --> 01:32:28.680 design argument and presuppose like aliens. So it doesn't really 1359 01:32:29.119 --> 01:32:33.319 get us to God. It just pushes the argument further, right, 1360 01:32:34.479 --> 01:32:36.960 It just pushes it further. For instance, someone could argue 1361 01:32:37.000 --> 01:32:41.239 design and not believe in God at one level, they'd 1362 01:32:41.359 --> 01:32:45.079 eventually be pushed in morality, knowledge and all these other 1363 01:32:45.199 --> 01:32:48.399 transcendental things, but they could hold a position. At least 1364 01:32:49.239 --> 01:32:52.159 an atheist can hold a design. By the way he kinock, 1365 01:32:53.039 --> 01:32:56.680 I have a prediction that the secularists are going to 1366 01:32:56.760 --> 01:32:59.039 adopt in the next ten years, ten to fifteen years. 1367 01:32:59.520 --> 01:33:04.560 They're going to adopt an intelligent design perspective, but they're 1368 01:33:04.600 --> 01:33:08.640 going to attribute the intelligence to some larger sort of 1369 01:33:08.840 --> 01:33:13.520 naturalistic entity that they're gonna say has some sort of beingness, 1370 01:33:14.039 --> 01:33:17.279 because already they're trying to say some of these philosophical 1371 01:33:17.359 --> 01:33:24.079 circles are arguing that any object that can interact with 1372 01:33:24.119 --> 01:33:28.359 another object has some type of like consciousness. It's like panpsychism, 1373 01:33:28.560 --> 01:33:34.760 but develop it's being developed by a secular position. It's 1374 01:33:34.800 --> 01:33:42.520 really wild. That's why new neo paganism, technological paganism, pan psychism, 1375 01:33:42.760 --> 01:33:48.359 new agism is getting popularized because he can't avoid tying 1376 01:33:48.399 --> 01:33:51.960 it to some mythos or some sort of some sort 1377 01:33:52.000 --> 01:33:56.720 of larger paradigm that necessitates a greater mind, if that 1378 01:33:56.800 --> 01:34:01.399 makes sense, or a greater more complex set of operations, right, 1379 01:34:01.439 --> 01:34:05.000 because they hold that the brain is peculiar to all 1380 01:34:05.039 --> 01:34:08.720 of their objects because it's so complex. Well, complexity doesn't 1381 01:34:08.760 --> 01:34:13.520 really get you anywhere. So so the answer is, yeah, 1382 01:34:13.600 --> 01:34:16.960 you can use design to trap a dumb atheist, but 1383 01:34:17.840 --> 01:34:21.079 it really doesn't get you to God, a specific God, 1384 01:34:21.199 --> 01:34:24.680 so it's not ultimately a good starting point. You should 1385 01:34:24.720 --> 01:34:27.039 just go for the jugular with atheists. 1386 01:34:27.439 --> 01:34:29.079 Right, And do you think that that's a well a 1387 01:34:29.119 --> 01:34:31.119 good response to this. I think this is a one 1388 01:34:31.199 --> 01:34:35.439 instance of what a huge of just a general problem 1389 01:34:35.560 --> 01:34:36.239 of se Well. 1390 01:34:36.479 --> 01:34:39.439 It makes sense. It makes sense by the way, if 1391 01:34:39.479 --> 01:34:42.600 they try to extrapolate evolution, which they don't even have 1392 01:34:42.680 --> 01:34:47.000 a biogenesis covered, but they're already trying Carpenter to posit 1393 01:34:47.119 --> 01:34:49.920 some sort of evolutionary theory applying to planets and the 1394 01:34:50.000 --> 01:34:53.920 cosmos that's not identical to biology, but akin to it. 1395 01:34:54.840 --> 01:34:56.600 So if you do that, what's the logical end. Well, 1396 01:34:57.079 --> 01:34:59.520 if that's the case, you're going to take this approach, 1397 01:34:59.640 --> 01:35:05.520 that's that there was an initial organism, the same way 1398 01:35:05.520 --> 01:35:09.199 you have to apply that to evolution. There's this initial 1399 01:35:10.279 --> 01:35:12.920 Then the question of what's considered a biogenesis but for 1400 01:35:13.039 --> 01:35:15.119 the cosmos is going to be brought up. I mean, 1401 01:35:15.720 --> 01:35:19.439 there's no escaping the endless regress of this stuff. The 1402 01:35:19.560 --> 01:35:22.800 universe abides by the laws of physics because it's physical. No, 1403 01:35:23.079 --> 01:35:27.600 that doesn't follow. Even from our last conversation. Well, that's 1404 01:35:27.680 --> 01:35:30.600 just oh sorry, I thought you meant logic. Okay, laws 1405 01:35:30.640 --> 01:35:33.399 of physics because it's physical. No, No, that doesn't follow. 1406 01:35:34.680 --> 01:35:39.119 Like the way the status Big Tech of something physical, 1407 01:35:39.399 --> 01:35:42.880 it doesn't follow that there's a law on the behavior 1408 01:35:43.039 --> 01:35:46.119 of it with other things doesn't follow. That's a jump. 1409 01:35:47.399 --> 01:35:48.840 It doesn't abide by the laws of logic. 1410 01:35:48.920 --> 01:35:49.199 It does. 1411 01:35:49.359 --> 01:35:52.680 To say something exists and it's physical means that there's 1412 01:35:52.680 --> 01:35:55.960 a distinction of what physical means, which means it abides 1413 01:35:56.039 --> 01:35:59.560 by the law of identity and non contradiction. We use 1414 01:35:59.600 --> 01:36:02.680 logic think about the world. No, the ability to think 1415 01:36:02.720 --> 01:36:07.079 about the world presupposes a process that produced your thinker. 1416 01:36:08.720 --> 01:36:11.359 If there's a process that presupposes your thinker, Big Tech, 1417 01:36:12.600 --> 01:36:15.760 you should be getting this by now. With the example 1418 01:36:16.119 --> 01:36:20.159 of your parents existing, it demonstrates that the laws of thought, 1419 01:36:21.720 --> 01:36:25.600 law of identity non contradiction, that your father couldn't have 1420 01:36:25.760 --> 01:36:30.199 sex with himself another version of himself to have you. 1421 01:36:31.039 --> 01:36:34.359 It needed to be specifically, there was a father who 1422 01:36:34.479 --> 01:36:36.479 is your father, and there was a mother who's your mother, 1423 01:36:36.800 --> 01:36:39.279 and there was a set of operations which also abide 1424 01:36:39.279 --> 01:36:42.279 by the law of identity, and the operation has a 1425 01:36:42.359 --> 01:36:44.800 result that abides by the regularity of nature and law 1426 01:36:44.800 --> 01:36:47.600 of identity, and then nine months later there's a result 1427 01:36:47.640 --> 01:36:49.800 that abides by the law of identity in the regularity 1428 01:36:49.800 --> 01:36:53.239 of nature, and so on. So No, saying the universe 1429 01:36:53.319 --> 01:36:55.800 abides by the laws of physics because it's physical. No, 1430 01:36:55.960 --> 01:36:58.600 you don't grant yourself that there are laws simply because 1431 01:36:58.600 --> 01:37:05.479 there's physicality. It's logically possible from your worldview that something 1432 01:37:05.560 --> 01:37:09.720 could exist and have no logical relation, no, no causal relations. 1433 01:37:11.079 --> 01:37:14.720 It could have been the case that water existed and 1434 01:37:15.039 --> 01:37:19.119 heat Putting heat to water didn't produce boiling. See you 1435 01:37:19.239 --> 01:37:23.960 see this same problem breakfast Taco's ad. By granting yourself physicality, 1436 01:37:24.680 --> 01:37:31.159 you think you can automatically smuggle behaviors. You can't. You 1437 01:37:31.239 --> 01:37:40.279 can't smuggle behaviors. To say something exists is a thought. Yeah, 1438 01:37:40.479 --> 01:37:44.239 it's a thought that required No. No, no, no, no, no, 1439 01:37:44.359 --> 01:37:46.399 you don't understand. You still don't. You're still not engaging 1440 01:37:46.479 --> 01:37:50.760 with the defeater here. Okay, saying I'm confused doesn't engage 1441 01:37:50.760 --> 01:37:53.279 with the defeater. It's clear who's confused here, and I 1442 01:37:53.319 --> 01:38:00.239 don't need to say so okay again, to say any thing. 1443 01:38:01.079 --> 01:38:03.479 To have a thought, Big Tech, to have a thought 1444 01:38:04.079 --> 01:38:07.399 means there's a previous existence that existed before you were 1445 01:38:07.479 --> 01:38:10.560 capable of having a thought. If there is a previous 1446 01:38:10.720 --> 01:38:14.960 existence that occurred in a certain way for you to 1447 01:38:15.079 --> 01:38:18.560 even exist, that means the law of identity existed before 1448 01:38:18.640 --> 01:38:24.239 you had a thought. You were born as a baby 1449 01:38:24.720 --> 01:38:28.319 before you had a thought. Now, break I've almost called 1450 01:38:28.319 --> 01:38:32.560 you breakfast tacos. Listen to what you're saying, Big Tech. 1451 01:38:34.760 --> 01:38:39.239 Is it is you existing as a one day old baby? 1452 01:38:40.039 --> 01:38:41.960 Does that abide by the law of identity and the 1453 01:38:42.039 --> 01:38:47.840 laws of thought even though you're not having a thought. No, 1454 01:38:51.279 --> 01:38:54.600 the things existing it's outside of your thinking. Yeah, I 1455 01:38:54.720 --> 01:39:02.319 just demonstrated that the law of identity, it's ontology. You're thinking, 1456 01:39:02.840 --> 01:39:08.640 what part don't you understand? You have to admit it. 1457 01:39:08.720 --> 01:39:11.479 That's why when I asked you, Big Tech, do you 1458 01:39:11.600 --> 01:39:14.159 have a pass that includes two parents? And you're like, well, 1459 01:39:14.199 --> 01:39:15.720 I don't know. That's why you have to go to 1460 01:39:15.880 --> 01:39:19.159 like nihilism, because I'm not sure why you would just 1461 01:39:19.279 --> 01:39:21.600 not just answer that question, be like yeah, yeah, yeah, 1462 01:39:22.239 --> 01:39:24.920 why don't you just say you know, Jimbob you're right 1463 01:39:24.920 --> 01:39:27.880 about this. I have to rethink this. If there's a 1464 01:39:27.960 --> 01:39:32.760 process that produces the capability for humans to think, if 1465 01:39:32.800 --> 01:39:37.920 there's a process, the law of identity is upheld in 1466 01:39:38.039 --> 01:39:41.279 that process, the process itself can't violate the law of identity. 1467 01:39:43.560 --> 01:39:46.359 And you're like, no, I have to think it first. 1468 01:39:46.720 --> 01:39:51.079 No law of identity equals the stuff is the same 1469 01:39:51.439 --> 01:39:54.720 as other stuff. No, that's the opposite of law of identity. 1470 01:39:54.760 --> 01:39:56.399 What are you talking about? What do you I don't 1471 01:39:56.399 --> 01:39:58.399 know if you're following this. You're not following this anymore. 1472 01:39:59.199 --> 01:40:00.239 You're out of the convers. 1473 01:40:00.399 --> 01:40:02.640 You've got two claims. You've got one about a pistemology 1474 01:40:02.640 --> 01:40:05.159 and one about ontology. And effectively, the question is how 1475 01:40:05.159 --> 01:40:06.640 we're going to get them to play nice together. And 1476 01:40:07.399 --> 01:40:10.960 the trouble is, I mean, on the classic Aristotelian model philosophy, 1477 01:40:10.960 --> 01:40:12.079 you have a bunch of branches. 1478 01:40:12.520 --> 01:40:15.399 By the way, this section is called trusting human rationality 1479 01:40:15.479 --> 01:40:20.439 as a guide to truth. It's perfectly, perfectly parallel to 1480 01:40:20.680 --> 01:40:22.399 the engagement I'm having with big tech right now. 1481 01:40:22.680 --> 01:40:24.159 The outer branch of the tree, and you get to 1482 01:40:24.199 --> 01:40:26.319 the middle and it's metaphysics orontology. It's like the stuff 1483 01:40:26.319 --> 01:40:29.199 that is. This is why Descartes meditations on Metaphysics is 1484 01:40:29.239 --> 01:40:32.279 called meditations on first philosophies, because metaphysics is the first philosophy. 1485 01:40:33.039 --> 01:40:35.520 And I think that the trouble is that there is 1486 01:40:36.119 --> 01:40:39.279 in practice, there's an interplay. There is mutual dependence between 1487 01:40:39.279 --> 01:40:42.039 your pistemology and your ontology, because your ontology. 1488 01:40:41.720 --> 01:40:43.359 Could will justify your phenology, but. 1489 01:40:43.399 --> 01:40:45.760 Your epistomology has to justify why you believe in your ontology. 1490 01:40:45.840 --> 01:40:50.760 What is Finally the atheist who actually properly assesses the 1491 01:40:51.079 --> 01:40:56.760 interconnectivity and the inseparable nature of the branches of philosophy. 1492 01:40:57.359 --> 01:40:58.920 Now I don't know if he's going to continue there 1493 01:40:59.000 --> 01:41:05.279 to meritfit to morality. But yeah, metaphysics, ontology, epistemology, you 1494 01:41:05.439 --> 01:41:09.640 cannot talk about any of this stuff without assuming the 1495 01:41:09.720 --> 01:41:13.319 other branches constantly. You're just constant. It's like three circles, 1496 01:41:14.359 --> 01:41:17.960 three spheres of influence that are always overlapping. You cannot 1497 01:41:18.159 --> 01:41:23.640 separate them ever. Do you even know how to engage people? 1498 01:41:23.840 --> 01:41:28.199 Brough just so fucking dumb. 1499 01:41:29.560 --> 01:41:35.199 Yeah, epistemology like the study of how you can come 1500 01:41:35.239 --> 01:41:37.479 to know things, and ontology the study of what is 1501 01:41:37.920 --> 01:41:41.439 so my epistemology is in that. That's a really good 1502 01:41:41.439 --> 01:41:43.840 example of where somebody is put forward the argument that 1503 01:41:44.000 --> 01:41:47.239 the ontology has undermined epistemology. The idea that we are 1504 01:41:47.439 --> 01:41:50.399 simply evolved creatures atoms bumping together and that's all our 1505 01:41:50.439 --> 01:41:53.640 brains are, and that's what our rationality is, has undermined 1506 01:41:53.720 --> 01:41:57.960 or pulsively undermined the epistemology. And then the. 1507 01:41:59.520 --> 01:42:03.520 See now he's already ahead of most atheists, all the 1508 01:42:03.600 --> 01:42:06.119 atheists that we engage with, all of these discords, they 1509 01:42:06.279 --> 01:42:09.199 fundamentally would spur get this. They probably are in the 1510 01:42:09.560 --> 01:42:12.439 in the in the comments, honestly going no, no, you 1511 01:42:12.479 --> 01:42:18.439 can't say that that if the ontology of rationality is 1512 01:42:18.520 --> 01:42:23.680 purely physical molecules bumping together, if you're ontology. If if, 1513 01:42:24.000 --> 01:42:28.640 then you're epistemology is reduced to molecules bumping together. So 1514 01:42:29.119 --> 01:42:30.159 they undermine each other. 1515 01:42:31.119 --> 01:42:33.279 And this is it's kind of fascinating, right, But then 1516 01:42:33.680 --> 01:42:36.359 the you have to assume the reliability of epistemology in 1517 01:42:36.439 --> 01:42:38.079 order to come to any sort of ontology. 1518 01:42:38.439 --> 01:42:42.279 So the so when the theists, so, I don't know 1519 01:42:42.319 --> 01:42:44.199 what you mean by that, ian the extent, no, I 1520 01:42:44.319 --> 01:42:47.760 do reviews. And then I open up the panel sometimes 1521 01:42:47.880 --> 01:42:49.319 or I'll go on, what are you talking about? I 1522 01:42:49.439 --> 01:42:55.039 engage constantly. What are you talking about? It's actually you 1523 01:42:55.199 --> 01:42:58.399 guys who don't engage. Iron Charioteer has been here for 1524 01:42:58.680 --> 01:43:06.279 year a year plus and he's never called in. That's 1525 01:43:06.359 --> 01:43:09.920 called not engaging with me. It's you guys, project You're 1526 01:43:10.000 --> 01:43:13.199 just a bunch of chat pussies. All. You a bunch 1527 01:43:13.239 --> 01:43:14.000 of chat pussies. 1528 01:43:14.119 --> 01:43:16.439 Not just that the theist argument is circular. When they 1529 01:43:16.479 --> 01:43:18.439 would say, oh, well God would ground that's, well, how 1530 01:43:18.520 --> 01:43:20.560 do you have the prans to gold grounding it? 1531 01:43:20.640 --> 01:43:21.279 How do you know that? 1532 01:43:21.720 --> 01:43:25.359 What's what's the pre considered reliability of your pistemology? 1533 01:43:26.520 --> 01:43:30.439 Now he's using some sort of criteria problem, right, And 1534 01:43:30.560 --> 01:43:32.880 it's not like the problem of the criteria isn't a 1535 01:43:33.199 --> 01:43:35.279 isn't a valid thing to look at. It's just the 1536 01:43:35.600 --> 01:43:38.640 problem here is this is why everything pushes to the 1537 01:43:38.760 --> 01:43:42.560 necessary preconditions argument, that you can't escape making a tag argument, 1538 01:43:42.800 --> 01:43:46.239 even if you're not a God believer. You have to 1539 01:43:46.319 --> 01:43:50.279 make the tag for something. They do tag for initial state, 1540 01:43:52.119 --> 01:43:57.640 they do tag for you know, quantum foam, the tag 1541 01:43:57.720 --> 01:44:01.439 for quantum, you know, the transcendental argument for quantum. They 1542 01:44:01.520 --> 01:44:05.680 can't escape it. This is why you can't use autonomy, 1543 01:44:06.319 --> 01:44:10.520 autonomous reasoning, and epistemology to get you to the necessary preconditions. 1544 01:44:10.800 --> 01:44:17.159 You have to argue the necessity. You have to pose 1545 01:44:17.199 --> 01:44:19.800 it something that's ultimately circular as a starting point. You 1546 01:44:19.840 --> 01:44:24.119 can't avoid this, It's impossible. The only difference is the 1547 01:44:24.199 --> 01:44:29.319 autonomous reasoner is saying they're the necessary precondition for truth 1548 01:44:30.680 --> 01:44:34.039 because they're appealing to their own reasoning. They're not justifying 1549 01:44:34.119 --> 01:44:36.600 how it is they have reasoning. They're just granting themselves 1550 01:44:36.600 --> 01:44:40.039 reasoning the fact that we're given reasoning to come to 1551 01:44:40.279 --> 01:44:45.800 the necessary preconditions. It doesn't mean you're doing autonomous reasoning. 1552 01:44:46.640 --> 01:44:50.039 You have to account for a reasoning existing altogether, which 1553 01:44:50.119 --> 01:44:52.359 means you're already appealing outside of yourself. 1554 01:44:56.479 --> 01:44:59.520 Gee, that has allowed you to know that your reasoning 1555 01:44:59.600 --> 01:45:02.760 chain from God existing to the reliability sugar pistemology looks 1556 01:45:03.399 --> 01:45:05.680 but this, and this is sometimes polsted as a problem 1557 01:45:05.720 --> 01:45:07.199 for the theists, but it's not. It's a fun basic 1558 01:45:07.239 --> 01:45:08.279 what do you think for everyone? 1559 01:45:14.279 --> 01:45:17.239 We're just molecules? But also yeah, the rational but we're 1560 01:45:17.319 --> 01:45:22.159 just molecules, but there's a we we're just molecules. But 1561 01:45:22.239 --> 01:45:25.000 there's an eye? What no, what is this ie you're 1562 01:45:25.000 --> 01:45:30.760 talking about it? What a uh conglomeration of particular items 1563 01:45:30.840 --> 01:45:31.800 and patterns? Is you? 1564 01:45:32.159 --> 01:45:32.479 Is the you? 1565 01:45:34.239 --> 01:45:39.159 Rationality? Certain molecules are rational and propositional and others aren't. 1566 01:45:39.960 --> 01:45:42.840 So I love bringing up the waterfall. How is it 1567 01:45:42.920 --> 01:45:46.840 the case that everything is fundamentally made of atoms and 1568 01:45:47.520 --> 01:45:50.880 the mere organization, the difference in organization of those atoms 1569 01:45:50.960 --> 01:45:53.920 can render one thing completely propositional and rational and the 1570 01:45:54.000 --> 01:45:58.199 other thing not. It's insane, that's an insane fairy tale, 1571 01:45:58.560 --> 01:46:01.760 that's greazy, that's magic. By They're like, oh, the theist 1572 01:46:01.920 --> 01:46:06.239 is using magical reasoning and thinking and magic. You're you 1573 01:46:06.359 --> 01:46:10.199 have no distinction between what you call an arrangement of 1574 01:46:10.880 --> 01:46:15.760 carbon and water called a human being, and a lightning storm, 1575 01:46:17.439 --> 01:46:21.439 And yet you grant yourself one having the ability to 1576 01:46:21.520 --> 01:46:30.920 be rational in the other not. Wow, who does that? 1577 01:46:32.079 --> 01:46:38.439 Alex O'Connor looks like a actor. Charles Bronson looks like 1578 01:46:38.560 --> 01:46:39.720 a Charles Bronson. 1579 01:46:41.399 --> 01:46:43.359 It's a it's a problem for everyone, right, it's because 1580 01:46:43.359 --> 01:46:46.880 it's because of this, it's because thank you for prediction 1581 01:46:47.000 --> 01:46:49.039 on what we think is and what is? What we 1582 01:46:49.159 --> 01:46:51.119 believe is the case is predication on what we think 1583 01:46:51.119 --> 01:46:52.680 we can Yeah, so so so. 1584 01:46:54.720 --> 01:46:57.079 Well, we'll break this down even if you just feel 1585 01:46:57.119 --> 01:46:59.159 sach Alex, I could see looking you. 1586 01:46:59.199 --> 01:47:01.199 Want to bake and I'm too little for him. Look, 1587 01:47:01.239 --> 01:47:02.720 I have seventeen thousand followers. 1588 01:47:02.760 --> 01:47:05.800 Come and I think, no, don't apologize. That's what we're 1589 01:47:05.800 --> 01:47:06.000 here for. 1590 01:47:06.159 --> 01:47:11.680 But they won't. They won't. If they did, that would 1591 01:47:11.680 --> 01:47:14.399 be great. It's just that they won't. I'm also too aggressive. 1592 01:47:15.600 --> 01:47:17.600 I can't sit here and try to pretend I am. 1593 01:47:17.640 --> 01:47:20.079 I'm sitting in a fucking library that smells like a pipe, 1594 01:47:20.359 --> 01:47:25.439 like a pipe. You know, I'm low class. I grew 1595 01:47:25.520 --> 01:47:30.680 up in an old farmhouse. Okay, I'm aggressive, I'm arrogant. 1596 01:47:30.920 --> 01:47:33.640 I'm gonna mock you. Okay. They don't like that. They 1597 01:47:33.680 --> 01:47:39.600 don't want that, they don't want that. I think I'm toxic. Toxic. 1598 01:47:40.439 --> 01:47:44.760 There's like a circularity potentially in the Godge justification and saying, well, 1599 01:47:44.800 --> 01:47:48.000 I can trust my rationality because you have seven fifty. 1600 01:47:48.079 --> 01:47:50.640 That's what day caught does, and you have seven to fifty. 1601 01:47:50.960 --> 01:47:54.920 Everybody go over and follow mister Westford. Just we've got 1602 01:47:55.039 --> 01:47:59.119 to get this guy over one thousand and Also, this 1603 01:47:59.239 --> 01:47:59.960 is a good time to hit. 1604 01:47:59.880 --> 01:48:00.520 The like button. 1605 01:48:02.279 --> 01:48:03.199 I thought I died. 1606 01:48:07.640 --> 01:48:10.920 Right, Alex Jones, right, am I right? 1607 01:48:22.159 --> 01:48:22.439 Love it. 1608 01:48:26.920 --> 01:48:30.600 The famous criticisms of descartes work is known as the Cartesian. 1609 01:48:30.159 --> 01:48:33.000 Yeah, he'd have for better, Yes, Andrew, Well, if you 1610 01:48:33.159 --> 01:48:36.319 need God, Andrew is in the position to debate a 1611 01:48:36.359 --> 01:48:41.960 lot of these people. Yep, and he could, he could manage. 1612 01:48:42.119 --> 01:48:48.079 He's just more he's more inclined to political debate and 1613 01:48:48.239 --> 01:48:51.640 granting all of the ship, and he's less like you know, 1614 01:48:51.720 --> 01:48:54.920 I think Jay Dyer should be debating Alex. Right, you know, 1615 01:48:56.119 --> 01:48:59.880 these two should be debating I wouldn't even say me 1616 01:49:00.439 --> 01:49:05.479 or Andrew jay Dyer should be debating Alex At the 1617 01:49:05.560 --> 01:49:12.079 paradigm level of these, these two counter views of really 1618 01:49:12.439 --> 01:49:16.880 the debate ultimately ends up being theonomous reason and autonomous 1619 01:49:16.920 --> 01:49:19.800 reason and then everything else that follows under those two 1620 01:49:19.880 --> 01:49:31.760 umbrellas physicalism versus non physicalism, maybe naturalism versus supernaturalism. Jr. 1621 01:49:31.880 --> 01:49:33.840 Is going to be on AP's channel. Who's a P 1622 01:49:36.000 --> 01:49:38.960 I don't know shorts short letters anymore? I don't know 1623 01:49:39.479 --> 01:49:42.760 who's apho? Who'd at? 1624 01:49:43.680 --> 01:49:47.800 Who did it to justify your reasoning ability? How do 1625 01:49:47.880 --> 01:49:51.960 you reason that God exists in order to justify so 1626 01:49:52.039 --> 01:49:53.680 it goes around in the circle, right, and. 1627 01:49:53.840 --> 01:49:55.880 So yeah, kind of what's happening now. I mean Jay 1628 01:49:55.960 --> 01:49:59.319 has done and continues to do lots of work against atheism, 1629 01:49:59.399 --> 01:50:00.920 but it's kind of a like a fun trio. My 1630 01:50:01.000 --> 01:50:02.680 buddy texted me and he was like, Oh, it's fun 1631 01:50:02.720 --> 01:50:07.279 to watch you guys, because Andrew's got the d Jens. 1632 01:50:08.079 --> 01:50:11.000 You know, he attacks the Djens, debates against the Muslims, 1633 01:50:11.039 --> 01:50:14.199 but mostly focuses on the d Gens. And Jay is 1634 01:50:15.000 --> 01:50:21.199 focused on Heresi's Islam assists and so forth, but still 1635 01:50:21.279 --> 01:50:26.399 debates atheism. But I'm like, rigidly focused on materialists and atheists. 1636 01:50:27.840 --> 01:50:33.479 You know, is he a tall mood apologist? He's a Zio? 1637 01:50:34.159 --> 01:50:38.560 Isn't he a zio? Guy Montana Moser five dollars thank you. 1638 01:50:38.880 --> 01:50:42.560 I know I'm harping on this ken Ham legit. No, 1639 01:50:42.680 --> 01:50:46.359 I don't really take ken Ham seriously. Scientific approach to 1640 01:50:46.399 --> 01:50:50.039 the faith make any sense? No, No, it doesn't. Scientific 1641 01:50:50.079 --> 01:50:52.359 approach to the faith. There's a great video on this 1642 01:50:52.600 --> 01:50:57.560 by David Patrick Harry over at Church of the Eternal Logos. 1643 01:50:58.439 --> 01:51:03.840 I forgot what it's called, but essentially goes over in 1644 01:51:03.960 --> 01:51:10.279 great detail the difference between correspondence theory and coherency classical 1645 01:51:10.399 --> 01:51:17.920 foundationalism versus the transcendental approach. And what we find is 1646 01:51:18.600 --> 01:51:21.600 that someone like ken Ham or anyone else, if they're 1647 01:51:21.800 --> 01:51:25.720 arguing from the scientific paradigm, they're really in the atheist paradigm. 1648 01:51:26.680 --> 01:51:29.039 And if you're in the atheist paradigm, how are you 1649 01:51:29.079 --> 01:51:31.800 going to try to use the atheist paradigm, which is naturalistic, 1650 01:51:32.039 --> 01:51:35.880 to jump to supernaturalism as a result from an argument, 1651 01:51:37.039 --> 01:51:41.600 rather than questioning the starting point of why you even 1652 01:51:41.720 --> 01:51:46.479 have the scientific approach to begin with. That's why it's 1653 01:51:46.560 --> 01:51:48.800 kind of frustrating because the people who argue like ken 1654 01:51:48.840 --> 01:51:50.960 Ham and the other they get more play because they're 1655 01:51:51.000 --> 01:51:55.239 inside the atheist paradigm. They get more service, lip service, 1656 01:51:55.279 --> 01:51:58.000 they get more spots on panels, they get more debates 1657 01:51:58.600 --> 01:52:02.199 because the atheists is going to mostly engage with that 1658 01:52:02.439 --> 01:52:06.039 because it's their paradigm. It makes sense that the William Lane, 1659 01:52:06.079 --> 01:52:12.720 Craigs and the ken Hams are the more popular fodder 1660 01:52:12.840 --> 01:52:15.640 or subjects for the atheist community to kind of entangle 1661 01:52:15.760 --> 01:52:20.079 entangle themselves with because they're arguing from the atheist paradigm. 1662 01:52:21.039 --> 01:52:24.760 It's ultimately a bad position. It's a bad position to take. 1663 01:52:27.159 --> 01:52:31.560 Caramazzo gifted one membership. Thank you so much, Tony another 1664 01:52:31.560 --> 01:52:33.720 four ninety nine. I appreciate that. How do you think 1665 01:52:33.840 --> 01:52:37.199 a serious conversation between Dier and William lane Craig would go. 1666 01:52:37.399 --> 01:52:41.880 I think it would go well. William lane Craig is 1667 01:52:42.359 --> 01:52:48.359 very well mannered, very well mannered. I mean it's takes 1668 01:52:48.399 --> 01:52:52.079 a long time. I think Jay would might be bored 1669 01:52:52.399 --> 01:53:07.039 in fact moral duties. If the atheists can't ground their 1670 01:53:07.239 --> 01:53:23.439 moral duties, there's ultimately a deontological necessity of God. Now, 1671 01:53:23.520 --> 01:53:27.600 I will give William Lane Craig some credit for absolutely, 1672 01:53:28.199 --> 01:53:35.800 hands down decimating Sam Harris's moral landscape. I believe I 1673 01:53:35.880 --> 01:53:44.359 have a knockdown argument. That's a good William lane Craig 1674 01:53:44.399 --> 01:53:47.039 I'd never tried before. I just heard him in my head. 1675 01:53:50.039 --> 01:53:55.600 If the highest peaks of well being can be occupied 1676 01:53:56.640 --> 01:54:02.399 by people who have done evil things. He's old now, 1677 01:54:02.479 --> 01:54:05.840 though he's old now a little quiver, Yeah, he has 1678 01:54:05.840 --> 01:54:07.000 a little quiver in his voice. 1679 01:54:12.800 --> 01:54:15.239 Think about like the atheist urgeon of this or the 1680 01:54:15.279 --> 01:54:19.560 atheist problem here is really put together best I think 1681 01:54:19.600 --> 01:54:23.279 by Alvin planting it his evolutionary argument against naturalism. So 1682 01:54:23.359 --> 01:54:27.159 he specifically makes the case that if you believe in evolution. 1683 01:54:27.279 --> 01:54:29.079 I've talked about this a lot, right, If you believe 1684 01:54:29.079 --> 01:54:32.680 in evolution and your materialists assume you're a materialist, you 1685 01:54:32.720 --> 01:54:37.079 believe in evolution by natural selection. Natural selection selects for survivability. 1686 01:54:37.600 --> 01:54:40.560 It doesn't select for truth, which means that if you 1687 01:54:40.680 --> 01:54:45.000 believe in evolution, you believe that your reasoning faculty has 1688 01:54:45.119 --> 01:54:48.039 not evolved to be sensitive to truth but to survivability. 1689 01:54:48.680 --> 01:54:51.640 Why do you believe in evolution because you've reasoned your 1690 01:54:51.680 --> 01:54:54.560 way into it. But the thing you've just reasoned your 1691 01:54:54.600 --> 01:54:58.640 way into evolution has undermined your ability to trust the 1692 01:54:58.720 --> 01:54:59.680 reasoning process. 1693 01:55:00.640 --> 01:55:09.239 Also, it results almost universally, results in a secular view 1694 01:55:09.680 --> 01:55:13.399 that at the point in time they've used their reasoning 1695 01:55:13.640 --> 01:55:19.359 to come to the conclusion to not reproduce. So even 1696 01:55:19.399 --> 01:55:23.800 the aspect of evolution we called fitness, if planting a 1697 01:55:24.000 --> 01:55:29.680 new the future of the secular behavior we see today, 1698 01:55:29.760 --> 01:55:33.800 which is ultimately, don't have kids, you know, pursue your 1699 01:55:33.840 --> 01:55:38.479 own wants and desires without consequence, pursue convenience above all things, 1700 01:55:38.800 --> 01:55:42.680 freedom above all things. And it resulted in what's also 1701 01:55:42.800 --> 01:55:46.159 considered an evolution. The purpose, the goal, the only goal 1702 01:55:46.199 --> 01:55:50.520 they could actually say is survivor. Survival and survival can't 1703 01:55:50.600 --> 01:55:56.000 be separated or divorced from reproduction. Survival and reproduction go 1704 01:55:56.119 --> 01:55:59.960 hand in hand in evolution. And yet now the people 1705 01:56:00.000 --> 01:56:03.680 pople who believe in evolution come to a their reasoning, 1706 01:56:03.880 --> 01:56:08.359 their apparatus, their rationality have led them to a position 1707 01:56:08.840 --> 01:56:15.920 where they're annihilating their own DNA. That's wild. That's wild 1708 01:56:17.479 --> 01:56:22.560 that the people who believe in evolution almost universally agree 1709 01:56:23.119 --> 01:56:25.920 with a set of behaviors that ultimately remove them from 1710 01:56:25.960 --> 01:56:29.920 the gene pool. That's like, if God's not a comedian 1711 01:56:35.479 --> 01:56:44.239 speaking of a terrible take on how to look at God? Boy, 1712 01:56:44.279 --> 01:56:48.319 are you gonna be Yeah, we'll do that in a second. 1713 01:56:48.399 --> 01:56:51.159 I'll do that in a second. Saw a terrible clip that. 1714 01:56:51.199 --> 01:56:53.000 You've used to reason into it. So he sort of 1715 01:56:53.039 --> 01:56:56.520 points out that, like, you can't be a materialist and 1716 01:56:56.600 --> 01:57:00.880 believe in evolution, self cleaning up and cuts the reasons 1717 01:57:00.920 --> 01:57:02.039 you have for believing in evolution. 1718 01:57:02.279 --> 01:57:04.239 The thing is right, Yeah, that's right. 1719 01:57:04.359 --> 01:57:07.319 One of these that's right is a vicious circle, and 1720 01:57:07.359 --> 01:57:10.439 one of them is horrifyingly true. Because for the atheists, 1721 01:57:10.479 --> 01:57:13.399 you've got this horrible problem where like you've got this 1722 01:57:13.560 --> 01:57:19.560 weird circle of like like, yeah, I believe that it's 1723 01:57:19.640 --> 01:57:21.720 just atoms bumping into each other that has no connection 1724 01:57:21.800 --> 01:57:24.800 to truth, and that's produced this belief. But it's that 1725 01:57:24.920 --> 01:57:28.039 belief which is caused this this reasoning fact, and you're 1726 01:57:28.079 --> 01:57:29.039 getting all messed up. 1727 01:57:29.439 --> 01:57:29.600 You know. 1728 01:57:29.680 --> 01:57:31.760 The theist goes around in a circle, but they say, okay, 1729 01:57:31.840 --> 01:57:33.840 sure it's circular, but we all have to start somewhere, 1730 01:57:33.840 --> 01:57:36.479 and everyone's circular in some degree. But my circle is 1731 01:57:36.560 --> 01:57:39.720 one that says, well, God justifies reason because he's an 1732 01:57:39.840 --> 01:57:42.359 agent who is, you know, the foundation of truth and 1733 01:57:42.439 --> 01:57:43.439 gives us access to truth. 1734 01:57:43.640 --> 01:57:46.479 Not just that no reason itself is a mind is 1735 01:57:46.560 --> 01:57:51.359 a mind oriented thing, reason, logic, truth, meaning these are 1736 01:57:51.399 --> 01:57:55.439 all mind oriented things. So we don't just we don't 1737 01:57:55.520 --> 01:57:58.800 just you know, out of nowhere, pose it the same 1738 01:57:58.840 --> 01:58:01.720 way someone would pose it like spaghetti monster. We don't 1739 01:58:01.800 --> 01:58:04.399 just pause it that God is the foundation of reason. 1740 01:58:05.159 --> 01:58:09.279 There there is a way to communicate that that makes sense. 1741 01:58:10.720 --> 01:58:13.760 We would say God is a foundation of truth. You know, 1742 01:58:14.560 --> 01:58:17.560 even from a an atheist view, who wouldn't put truth 1743 01:58:17.720 --> 01:58:20.920 as a being like we would even if we granted 1744 01:58:21.039 --> 01:58:24.520 that category of truth lower T truth, low T truth, 1745 01:58:24.960 --> 01:58:30.119 lower testosterone truth, we would say, okay, So if truth 1746 01:58:30.239 --> 01:58:34.479 is is mind dependent, but it's absolute, even from the 1747 01:58:34.520 --> 01:58:39.680 atheist view, to deny its absolute is a contradiction, then 1748 01:58:39.760 --> 01:58:41.840 how do you ground such a thing if it's not 1749 01:58:41.920 --> 01:58:45.039 an object in the world from an empirical standard, you can't. 1750 01:58:46.199 --> 01:58:46.880 So it's not just this. 1751 01:58:47.199 --> 01:58:51.199 It's not just this like lazy leap to link truth 1752 01:58:51.279 --> 01:58:54.479 to a person. It's not a lazy leap to link 1753 01:58:55.159 --> 01:58:57.640 absolute concepts to an absolute mind. 1754 01:58:58.279 --> 01:58:59.199 It's truth. 1755 01:59:00.000 --> 01:59:03.800 And yeah, sure to get that. But that circle is 1756 01:59:03.960 --> 01:59:06.720 like consistent and self contained and gives you it could 1757 01:59:06.720 --> 01:59:10.159 be circular, it is one that sort of gives you 1758 01:59:10.479 --> 01:59:11.199 trust and truths. 1759 01:59:11.279 --> 01:59:13.079 I mean I think that, I think that the Yeah, 1760 01:59:13.119 --> 01:59:18.079 the circularity still appeal is still applies to the atheist 1761 01:59:18.279 --> 01:59:23.640 who is an empiricist, because they're ultimately saying, I I 1762 01:59:23.720 --> 01:59:27.039 trust my senses, and my senses tell me to trust 1763 01:59:27.079 --> 01:59:32.800 my senses. You don't escape circularity. All worldviews are faith based, 1764 01:59:33.039 --> 01:59:37.960 all knowledge all worldviews are theory laden. And if we're 1765 01:59:37.960 --> 01:59:41.560 on a web, you know, this is the analogy I use. 1766 01:59:42.479 --> 01:59:44.920 If there's a bunch of random people on a web 1767 01:59:45.000 --> 01:59:48.479 of knowledge. The person who wants to know the truth 1768 01:59:48.520 --> 01:59:51.479 of the matter, ultimately of the web of knowledge, They're 1769 01:59:51.520 --> 01:59:53.960 not going to go to the side strands. They're going 1770 01:59:54.000 --> 01:59:57.800 to go to the anchors. What are the anchor points 1771 01:59:57.880 --> 02:00:00.720 of the web of knowledge? That's theory laiden. What is 1772 02:00:00.800 --> 02:00:03.680 it grounded to? What is it tied to? Like, you 1773 02:00:03.720 --> 02:00:07.560 couldn't have a web without the anchors. You need the 1774 02:00:07.640 --> 02:00:16.479 anchor points to be drawn out to stable objects, stable things, 1775 02:00:16.720 --> 02:00:20.520 uninvariant things, or it collapses. So what's the invariant thing? 1776 02:00:20.600 --> 02:00:25.359 The anchors? The anchors. I hope you guys are following this. 1777 02:00:25.760 --> 02:00:29.760 The anchors in a worldview. If they are. If the 1778 02:00:30.680 --> 02:00:34.119 anchors are not identical to the longest strands of the web, 1779 02:00:34.800 --> 02:00:37.560 those are in an atheist view. The axioms, Well, I 1780 02:00:37.680 --> 02:00:41.319 use my axioms. No, you have nothing to tie your 1781 02:00:41.399 --> 02:00:48.920 axioms to. If your axioms are those long those longer, 1782 02:00:49.199 --> 02:00:52.439 thicker threads, that are stronger from the middle outward, If 1783 02:00:52.520 --> 02:00:54.239 your those are your actions. Oh, I use a lot 1784 02:00:54.279 --> 02:00:56.640 of identity, I use my reason, I use rationality, I 1785 02:00:56.720 --> 02:01:02.039 use science. Okay, what are those tied to? Brah, What 1786 02:01:02.199 --> 02:01:06.239 are they tied to Well, don't know. They're tied to themselves. 1787 02:01:07.000 --> 02:01:08.960 That's what they have to say. They're tied to themselves. 1788 02:01:11.720 --> 02:01:14.159 That doesn't make sense. They can't be tied to themselves. 1789 02:01:15.880 --> 02:01:18.800 Thank you for your Polish money. I believe appreciate that. 1790 02:01:19.079 --> 02:01:21.359 May Our Lord Jesus bless you for your hard work. 1791 02:01:21.439 --> 02:01:23.600 Mister Jim Bob just found out your channel atheism is 1792 02:01:23.640 --> 02:01:26.000 winning debates on the internet in my country. Now I 1793 02:01:26.119 --> 02:01:28.079 know more and can use your knowledge for myself. Yeah, 1794 02:01:28.079 --> 02:01:33.039 please continue the debates my axioms. 1795 02:01:34.239 --> 02:01:35.960 Yeah, I think I think that is essentially the Coole 1796 02:01:35.960 --> 02:01:38.880 difference betwe the too right self undermining versus self reinforcement. Yeah, 1797 02:01:39.079 --> 02:01:41.159 that's the Yeah, I just want to point. 1798 02:01:41.000 --> 02:01:43.079 Out that let's go to the laws of lot of logic, 1799 02:01:43.119 --> 02:01:44.520 where the goals of logic come from. 1800 02:01:45.600 --> 02:01:47.600 Oh, yeah, I know this is a fascinating one. 1801 02:01:48.119 --> 02:01:48.840 He's sorry, he's done. 1802 02:01:48.960 --> 02:01:50.720 One thing is that I you know, excited when I 1803 02:01:50.800 --> 02:01:53.479 was he specialty was my mastical logic. It was like, 1804 02:01:53.640 --> 02:01:55.640 that's what's what I focused on during my like doing 1805 02:01:55.960 --> 02:01:58.720 using my master So it's it's it's it's a very 1806 02:01:58.720 --> 02:02:03.640 interesting question. There there's a lot of dispute understandable as 1807 02:02:03.720 --> 02:02:08.720 some argue that logic is a fundamentally emperi system founding. 1808 02:02:08.880 --> 02:02:10.399 So some people argue that the laws of logic are 1809 02:02:10.399 --> 02:02:12.880 abstracted from observations. We don't see contradictions. 1810 02:02:13.039 --> 02:02:17.199 So nope, no, no, no, no, no, he already start. 1811 02:02:17.279 --> 02:02:20.359 I mean, come on, dude, you really think that's a 1812 02:02:20.399 --> 02:02:24.560 good take. No, you have to use and assume the 1813 02:02:24.640 --> 02:02:28.359 laws of logic before you do intake data. What are 1814 02:02:28.399 --> 02:02:32.560 you talking about. The first fundamental assumption of the laws 1815 02:02:32.560 --> 02:02:35.000 of thought is that you exist and there's an external world. 1816 02:02:37.680 --> 02:02:39.920 By the way, the moment you state that you exist 1817 02:02:39.960 --> 02:02:42.479 and there's an external world, you're now beyond assuming the 1818 02:02:42.560 --> 02:02:45.720 laws of thought. But you're now doing metaphysics something called 1819 02:02:45.720 --> 02:02:50.720 the external world. That's interesting. He's saying, Oh, well, some 1820 02:02:50.880 --> 02:02:53.279 people think. Now. Notice how he didn't say he believes that. 1821 02:02:53.399 --> 02:02:56.279 This is what the philosophers always do. They just cover 1822 02:02:56.439 --> 02:02:58.720 a broad variety of what some people can think. They 1823 02:02:58.760 --> 02:03:03.479 never answer what they think some people think. He says 1824 02:03:04.640 --> 02:03:07.840 that the laws of thodd are empirically derived. No, you 1825 02:03:08.000 --> 02:03:11.319 can't derive anything in the external world without assuming the 1826 02:03:11.399 --> 02:03:14.680 law of identity that objects aren't identical to other objects. 1827 02:03:14.880 --> 02:03:17.800 That's this sense of heat isn't the same as this 1828 02:03:17.920 --> 02:03:21.800 sense of brightness, this sense of smell is not the 1829 02:03:21.880 --> 02:03:29.920 same as this sense of pain. Why would he say 1830 02:03:30.000 --> 02:03:39.439 something so obviously dumb? Love this stream, jamab I hope 1831 02:03:39.439 --> 02:03:42.000 you'd keep it up. Thank you before you go, hits 1832 02:03:42.039 --> 02:03:47.520 a like button thought, appreciate you. 1833 02:03:48.960 --> 02:03:51.800 We have the law of un contradiction, and oh we. 1834 02:03:51.840 --> 02:03:54.800 Have it, Hey, guys, we have it. So because there's 1835 02:03:54.840 --> 02:03:56.439 a physical thing out there in the world, we have 1836 02:03:56.520 --> 02:03:58.800 the law of non contradiction. No, no, no, no, no 1837 02:04:00.039 --> 02:04:04.359 way to grant yourself. The first starting point of there's 1838 02:04:04.399 --> 02:04:06.920 something out there in the world is the assumption that 1839 02:04:07.039 --> 02:04:11.319 you are not identical to that thing. So he's like, oh, 1840 02:04:11.359 --> 02:04:13.079 we see this in stuff, We see this in objects 1841 02:04:13.119 --> 02:04:16.119 and stuff. No, who's this you? Who's this we? What 1842 02:04:16.159 --> 02:04:16.880 are you talking about? 1843 02:04:17.239 --> 02:04:22.159 Like there was so many an attempted research program called 1844 02:04:22.199 --> 02:04:24.640 quantum logic and like the eighties by Hillary Putnam. I 1845 02:04:24.720 --> 02:04:28.720 think oh, Hilary attempted. He multified the classical Hillary in 1846 02:04:28.880 --> 02:04:31.479 line with observations from quantum theory about. 1847 02:04:31.079 --> 02:04:35.079 What the thing is the same as the thing. No, 1848 02:04:35.199 --> 02:04:37.680 it's not the same as the thing. That's the point. 1849 02:04:37.800 --> 02:04:40.520 Big tech. How are you not following this at this point. 1850 02:04:46.119 --> 02:04:50.359 Your first fundamental assumption that you you presuppose logic in 1851 02:04:51.119 --> 02:04:53.119 is that you exist, that you have a mind, and 1852 02:04:53.199 --> 02:04:56.159 there's an external world and other minds that are attached 1853 02:04:56.159 --> 02:05:03.720 to other beings. That's the first assumption. Only after that 1854 02:05:04.119 --> 02:05:09.560 do you do like higher resolution uh, sense input? You don't, 1855 02:05:10.119 --> 02:05:12.439 by the way, you don't sense the laws of logic. 1856 02:05:13.640 --> 02:05:15.760 You don't sense them. There's nothing called the law of 1857 02:05:15.840 --> 02:05:20.039 identity that's a data input. There's no data law of 1858 02:05:20.079 --> 02:05:24.079 identity that you're inputting. There's nothing. That's why empiricism has failed. 1859 02:05:24.159 --> 02:05:29.359 That's why David human Is is completely consistent when he 1860 02:05:29.439 --> 02:05:37.439 points out this problem sense data. There's no law of identity. 1861 02:05:40.359 --> 02:05:43.880 There's nothing called the law of identity that you're discerning 1862 02:05:43.960 --> 02:05:48.039 with your senses. Yeah, the fact that we have it 1863 02:05:48.239 --> 02:05:48.920 principles and stuff. 1864 02:05:48.920 --> 02:05:51.159 I don't understand physics in the slights I'm. 1865 02:05:51.079 --> 02:05:55.319 Gonna by the way, even the law of identity, even 1866 02:05:55.359 --> 02:05:58.560 the perception. Another problem with the law of induction, right, 1867 02:05:59.039 --> 02:06:03.359 is a different problem, but related to just assuming logic itself, 1868 02:06:04.000 --> 02:06:07.000 the assumption of the regularity of nature and that logic 1869 02:06:07.319 --> 02:06:12.079 is invariant, and then the regularity maintains. Just because the 1870 02:06:12.199 --> 02:06:16.079 law of identity and the law of regularity work together, 1871 02:06:17.279 --> 02:06:20.039 or one upholds the other, or one governs the other, 1872 02:06:20.279 --> 02:06:30.600 doesn't mean they're identical. It's not the same. So the 1873 02:06:30.720 --> 02:06:33.920 regularity of nature now the problem of induction. All of 1874 02:06:34.000 --> 02:06:40.079 their reasoning is basically postdiction. And to do postdiction rationality 1875 02:06:40.119 --> 02:06:42.439 and reasoning is to assume the law of identity that 1876 02:06:42.520 --> 02:06:46.039 you think you're experiencing actually maintains, and that your recollection 1877 02:06:46.159 --> 02:06:49.680 of the past, while you're doing some evaluation, you're actually 1878 02:06:49.720 --> 02:06:53.479 evaluating properly. So there's a couple of things. There's the 1879 02:06:53.600 --> 02:06:56.640 past that you don't have access to anymore, that through 1880 02:06:56.720 --> 02:07:00.520 your sense data, the thing you're engaging with is no 1881 02:07:00.680 --> 02:07:04.520 longer itself itself in a sense right, that there's a past. 1882 02:07:04.600 --> 02:07:07.600 This is why, this is why nominalism fails, is because 1883 02:07:08.439 --> 02:07:14.239 under nominalism you reject universals have some sort of actual existence, 1884 02:07:14.680 --> 02:07:18.920 and you're only engaging with particulars. But the moment you 1885 02:07:19.640 --> 02:07:24.680 engage with particulars, the moment you're referencing those particulars, you're 1886 02:07:24.760 --> 02:07:27.840 now referencing something not identical to the particulars you're in 1887 02:07:28.079 --> 02:07:32.720 you're referencing your evaluation of the particulars. So there's no unity. 1888 02:07:33.680 --> 02:07:38.319 There's nothing that ultimately unifies the particulars called your evaluations 1889 02:07:38.399 --> 02:07:41.680 to the things you're evaluating. This is how insane you 1890 02:07:41.800 --> 02:07:45.239 have to be to be some sort of strict nominalist 1891 02:07:46.359 --> 02:07:46.800 or muzzle. 1892 02:07:49.760 --> 02:07:50.039 And I. 1893 02:07:51.680 --> 02:07:54.760 Imagine that the general document was right. Imagine that you 1894 02:07:54.840 --> 02:07:59.640 couldn't know position and velocity in my general life. What 1895 02:07:59.760 --> 02:08:02.159 we would modify the laws of logic to reflect that, right? 1896 02:08:02.159 --> 02:08:04.239 You wouldn't be able to you if you knew the 1897 02:08:05.279 --> 02:08:07.640 you wouldn't be able to distribute certain properties, for instance, 1898 02:08:07.720 --> 02:08:09.399 and stuff of that. So he says thing, okay, Well. 1899 02:08:09.760 --> 02:08:14.199 The laws of logic are prescriptive recommendations from I don't 1900 02:08:14.239 --> 02:08:17.560 know if they're recommendations. You know why, because to make 1901 02:08:17.600 --> 02:08:25.239 a recommendation you have to already presuppose logic. So there 1902 02:08:25.279 --> 02:08:32.760 are laws of thought because you can't abandon them to think. Now, 1903 02:08:32.880 --> 02:08:35.279 whether or not we can jump to a metaethical position 1904 02:08:35.439 --> 02:08:40.399 of prescription versus description is something interesting, because why ought 1905 02:08:40.479 --> 02:08:44.760 we properly describe something? Is an ought? So if someone 1906 02:08:44.800 --> 02:08:47.680 says these things are descriptive, like the atheist says, well, no, 1907 02:08:47.760 --> 02:08:51.079 the laws of logic, Jimbob, You're you're making them seemingly 1908 02:08:51.159 --> 02:08:52.960 it seems like you're trying to give them some sort 1909 02:08:52.960 --> 02:08:55.920 of ontology that exists outside of our brain. Well, yeah, 1910 02:08:55.960 --> 02:08:58.840 I do, I do, and you do too, and they go, well, no, 1911 02:08:58.960 --> 02:09:03.920 they're just description. Well, the debate of whether they're prescriptive 1912 02:09:04.039 --> 02:09:07.800 or I think you can jump to how the laws 1913 02:09:07.840 --> 02:09:14.479 of thought leads immediately to a prescriptive position, which is 1914 02:09:14.560 --> 02:09:19.039 to say, why ought we be consistent? Why ought we 1915 02:09:19.159 --> 02:09:23.119 come to truth? But the atheist would push back on 1916 02:09:23.239 --> 02:09:29.800 that anyway. They would say, no, they're descriptive. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, Jay, absolutely. 1917 02:09:30.479 --> 02:09:31.800 I don't know if you caught any of this, but 1918 02:09:32.079 --> 02:09:35.640 that would be great to jump on, dude, save me 1919 02:09:35.720 --> 02:09:43.600 from myself. So he probably won't answer where they come from. 1920 02:09:43.920 --> 02:09:45.920 He's going to try to do some sort of describe 1921 02:09:45.960 --> 02:09:50.039 them into reality, and they're necessary ways of looking at 1922 02:09:50.079 --> 02:09:53.039 things because stuff exists. Well, no, stuff existing is not 1923 02:09:53.119 --> 02:09:54.079 identical to the law. 1924 02:09:54.159 --> 02:09:56.680 It follows we modify the littles of electic in accordance 1925 02:09:56.720 --> 02:09:56.880 with that. 1926 02:09:57.119 --> 02:09:59.279 No, no, no, no, what did you just say? Wait, 1927 02:09:59.359 --> 02:10:03.760 hold on, a say we would modify the laws of logic. 1928 02:10:04.199 --> 02:10:06.359 I don't know where they get off saying stuff like this. 1929 02:10:07.159 --> 02:10:10.319 I don't know what it is that they're learning where 1930 02:10:10.359 --> 02:10:13.239 they're not catching themselves in this statement. Maybe it's because 1931 02:10:13.239 --> 02:10:15.640 I'm novice that I catch this stuff and they're all 1932 02:10:15.760 --> 02:10:18.319 in their you know, they are all in these like 1933 02:10:18.560 --> 02:10:20.239 well dressed stuff and they have so many books and 1934 02:10:20.279 --> 02:10:24.039 stuff to say you could modify the laws of thought. 1935 02:10:24.359 --> 02:10:27.800 Let's to take the three classical laws, law of identity, 1936 02:10:27.880 --> 02:10:31.560 non contradiction, excluded middle to say you could modify them 1937 02:10:32.520 --> 02:10:36.479 appeals to those things. The act of doing a modification 1938 02:10:38.039 --> 02:10:42.640 is the act of engaging with non contradiction or excluded middle. 1939 02:10:45.640 --> 02:10:48.600 He's like, well, if reality is a certain a way, 1940 02:10:48.640 --> 02:10:53.960 we would modify the law of identity. No, the act 1941 02:10:54.039 --> 02:10:57.560 of modifying quote this process that you have access to, 1942 02:10:58.199 --> 02:11:02.199 well just modify it. No, that's like someone saying we 1943 02:11:02.359 --> 02:11:06.399 created the laws laws of thought. You can't create without 1944 02:11:06.439 --> 02:11:11.439 appealing to those things. You can't do that. You're using 1945 02:11:11.560 --> 02:11:14.600 the thing that you're saying you could modify this is 1946 02:11:14.840 --> 02:11:18.720 I don't know. I just don't know how they got 1947 02:11:18.800 --> 02:11:20.399 to this point. Jay I put the I don't know 1948 02:11:20.399 --> 02:11:22.239 if you missed it. I put it in the general chat. 1949 02:11:22.439 --> 02:11:26.039 The link whenever you want, I want. 1950 02:11:25.920 --> 02:11:28.159 To modify logic because of modifications. 1951 02:11:28.960 --> 02:11:32.199 No, no, no, no. Even quantum mechanics, even if they 1952 02:11:32.359 --> 02:11:38.399 run unbridled into quantum mechanic world where one particle is 1953 02:11:38.439 --> 02:11:40.960 the same as another, but they're in two spots, even 1954 02:11:41.079 --> 02:11:44.600 that appeals to the law of identity. You couldn't even say. 1955 02:11:45.880 --> 02:11:49.359 You couldn't even say that there's a particle called itself 1956 02:11:49.479 --> 02:11:52.159 and there's another one in a different spot. Is the 1957 02:11:52.199 --> 02:11:56.439 same as that, even your mind being blown at theoretically 1958 02:11:56.520 --> 02:11:58.960 that being a thing. Even if you granted that a thing, 1959 02:12:00.159 --> 02:12:03.079 you still need to know that this particle is this particle, 1960 02:12:03.399 --> 02:12:06.000 they have an identity. All you're really saying is that 1961 02:12:06.079 --> 02:12:08.960 they exist in two spots. That's just some theoretical like 1962 02:12:09.720 --> 02:12:14.079 consequence of looking at the results of the experiment. Even 1963 02:12:14.119 --> 02:12:17.039 if you granted it, like forget the that doesn't collapse 1964 02:12:17.079 --> 02:12:20.720 the law of identity. That actually affirms the law of identity. 1965 02:12:21.640 --> 02:12:24.399 The reason is is because how could you come to 1966 02:12:24.479 --> 02:12:28.439 the conclusion that this particle is itself and this particle 1967 02:12:28.560 --> 02:12:32.159 is itself unless you knew that one of them Wasn't 1968 02:12:32.199 --> 02:12:35.640 this other particle you were confusing for this one. You're 1969 02:12:35.680 --> 02:12:39.279 actually affirming the law of identity. You're not changing you're 1970 02:12:39.319 --> 02:12:43.720 not changing the rules. You're not changing them at all, 1971 02:12:44.239 --> 02:12:46.439 Caesar are the Great four ninety nine. If the laws 1972 02:12:46.479 --> 02:12:50.319 of logic were anything other than real and objective, I 1973 02:12:50.359 --> 02:12:52.640 should be able to change them. Yeah, it's interesting you 1974 02:12:52.680 --> 02:12:57.000 said that, Caesar, because he's actually proposing you could if that. 1975 02:12:57.840 --> 02:13:03.479 If that's the case, right, If that's the case, the 1976 02:13:03.640 --> 02:13:07.800 laws of thought, according to this guy are conventional, and 1977 02:13:07.960 --> 02:13:12.960 that they're not actually laws. And if they're conventions, now 1978 02:13:13.039 --> 02:13:17.319 he needs something absolute that governs how he comes to conventions. 1979 02:13:18.640 --> 02:13:22.399 Does that make sense If he changes his conventions and 1980 02:13:22.560 --> 02:13:24.479 he says we can change the laws of logic because 1981 02:13:24.479 --> 02:13:27.119 they're just conventional to our goals and how we perceive things, 1982 02:13:27.720 --> 02:13:30.159 there now needs to be some ultimate new set of 1983 02:13:30.279 --> 02:13:35.880 laws that allow even that to be the case. It's 1984 02:13:36.039 --> 02:13:42.079 impossible to think illogically in a sense. I've actually thought 1985 02:13:42.119 --> 02:13:48.640 about this before. When we say something's illogical, it's impossible 1986 02:13:48.720 --> 02:13:52.399 to escape logic to say illogical. So when we say 1987 02:13:52.479 --> 02:13:55.960 is it impossible to think illogically? We can use that 1988 02:13:56.199 --> 02:14:00.399 phrase and say someone's not thinking consistently with law, where 1989 02:14:00.439 --> 02:14:04.279 something's wrong, and we call that illogical, but it is 1990 02:14:04.399 --> 02:14:09.720 in fact impossible to think even illogically without assuming logic, 1991 02:14:10.880 --> 02:14:13.880 like you like, like the same thing, like like. If 1992 02:14:13.960 --> 02:14:17.239 logic is the positive and illogical is the misuse of it, 1993 02:14:17.560 --> 02:14:22.680 or or a misfire or a direction away from logical consistency, 1994 02:14:24.960 --> 02:14:28.079 then that's just the thing that's missing the mark of logic. 1995 02:14:31.159 --> 02:14:33.520 So yeah, yeah, I do I do ja Yeah yeah, 1996 02:14:33.560 --> 02:14:37.960 I jump on. So this guy's saying, yeah, okay, here, 1997 02:14:38.239 --> 02:14:39.000 we're gonna change. 1998 02:14:38.920 --> 02:14:42.000 Law of this thought, suggesting, well, what this does show 1999 02:14:42.560 --> 02:14:45.960 is that the laws of logic would be ulterable if 2000 02:14:46.000 --> 02:14:47.720 we encountered certain things in the world. 2001 02:14:47.840 --> 02:14:51.920 Now, that's so stupid. That's so dumb. I can't even blieve. 2002 02:14:52.039 --> 02:14:56.039 I can't believe this is It gets frustrating. I'm starting 2003 02:14:56.079 --> 02:14:59.520 to do the Jay Dire sigh. All right, this is dumb. 2004 02:15:00.159 --> 02:15:09.720 Is domb next scuber dude, listener done, this is Oh, 2005 02:15:09.840 --> 02:15:12.640 if we observe something else in the world, let me 2006 02:15:12.840 --> 02:15:16.079 change the laws of thought, the laws of logic you 2007 02:15:16.359 --> 02:15:22.920 used to perceive those things needed to be true. Okay, 2008 02:15:23.039 --> 02:15:26.279 just listen, just listen to what he's saying. Listen again, 2009 02:15:27.039 --> 02:15:27.800 listen what he's saying. 2010 02:15:29.680 --> 02:15:32.039 You wouldn't be able to distribute certain properties, for instance, 2011 02:15:32.119 --> 02:15:33.640 and stuff like that. So he says saying, okay, well, 2012 02:15:33.720 --> 02:15:36.000 we would modify the laws of logic in accordance with that. 2013 02:15:36.159 --> 02:15:38.399 So whether or not you know you want to modify 2014 02:15:38.840 --> 02:15:42.319 logic because of observations and quantum mechanics, he's suggesting, Well, 2015 02:15:43.039 --> 02:15:46.199 what this does show is that the laws of logic 2016 02:15:46.560 --> 02:15:49.680 would be alterable if we encountered certain things in the world. 2017 02:15:51.319 --> 02:15:55.680 Encountering certain things in the world, presuppose the logic that 2018 02:15:55.800 --> 02:15:59.439 you're thinking is alterable. You notice that, So he is 2019 02:15:59.479 --> 02:16:02.479 going to pursue leave some things using the standard logic 2020 02:16:03.079 --> 02:16:06.319 that we have that he can't refute or counter, and 2021 02:16:06.439 --> 02:16:09.319 then he's going to use that logic to give himself 2022 02:16:09.359 --> 02:16:12.319 his data input. And then his assumption is that after 2023 02:16:12.479 --> 02:16:16.239 he's received the input of things in the world through 2024 02:16:16.359 --> 02:16:22.359 the classical laws, after the fact, he's going to abandon 2025 02:16:22.399 --> 02:16:26.119 the laws that he used to perceive to then rewrite 2026 02:16:26.159 --> 02:16:30.000 the laws. That makes no sense. I mean, that is 2027 02:16:30.159 --> 02:16:36.319 so idiotic. Yeah, Jay, definitely hit the link if you 2028 02:16:36.360 --> 02:16:44.440 see it. It's so idiotic. The reason, the reasoning, the 2029 02:16:45.600 --> 02:16:48.040 reasoning you would have to change the laws of thought 2030 02:16:48.079 --> 02:16:51.639 in this case would be based on the laws of 2031 02:16:51.680 --> 02:16:55.559 thought you're trying to change, being intact and reliable. This 2032 02:16:55.760 --> 02:17:00.719 is how this is how mind numbingly dense you have 2033 02:17:00.879 --> 02:17:04.879 to be at this point. It's insane to say this, 2034 02:17:05.600 --> 02:17:07.840 and they are, you know, the mustache guys. Hey, real, 2035 02:17:07.959 --> 02:17:12.559 that's interesting. Oh that's let's let's philosophize more than that. 2036 02:17:14.200 --> 02:17:18.280 This is why it's so frustrating, you know, it's so 2037 02:17:18.479 --> 02:17:21.520 frustrating because there are these these two like philosopher guys 2038 02:17:22.360 --> 02:17:24.879 that are not Wait a second, that doesn't make any sense. 2039 02:17:27.040 --> 02:17:31.799 That doesn't make any sense. How to think yourself off 2040 02:17:31.799 --> 02:17:34.520 a cliff correct? Yeah, yeah, Kelly Mitchell. Five dollars, Thank 2041 02:17:34.520 --> 02:17:37.000 you so much, Kelly. Then I'll just create a universe 2042 02:17:37.000 --> 02:17:39.520 where the laws of logic can be modified. Yeah hear, 2043 02:17:39.680 --> 02:17:44.799 he did it. You know, abandon abandon the laws that 2044 02:17:44.879 --> 02:17:48.639 you use to perceive the external world as a as 2045 02:17:48.680 --> 02:17:52.479 a reason to change the the laws that you that 2046 02:17:52.600 --> 02:17:54.840 were required for you to perceive that thing. I mean, 2047 02:17:54.920 --> 02:17:55.639 this is insane. 2048 02:17:58.440 --> 02:18:02.559 There is some empirical compontis, but that's the that's the 2049 02:18:02.680 --> 02:18:05.479 epistem logical answer for Putnam. For other people, it's intuition, 2050 02:18:06.319 --> 02:18:07.399 and for others. 2051 02:18:07.239 --> 02:18:09.840 But he didn't answer the question. The question is where 2052 02:18:10.000 --> 02:18:13.040 do the laws of logic come from? The question was 2053 02:18:13.120 --> 02:18:16.600 not can you hypothesize an imaginary clown world in which 2054 02:18:16.639 --> 02:18:19.280 you can conventionally change the laws of thought? That wasn't 2055 02:18:19.319 --> 02:18:21.479 the question. That was not the question. 2056 02:18:21.639 --> 02:18:23.879 But there's also the metaphysical problem, which is why do 2057 02:18:23.959 --> 02:18:24.959 the laws of logic work? 2058 02:18:25.399 --> 02:18:27.559 And again you no, no, no, you're just not answering 2059 02:18:27.600 --> 02:18:31.360 the question. Guys, you're just sharing your tea and crumpets, right, 2060 02:18:32.520 --> 02:18:35.760 you're shopping for these collared shirts together online in the 2061 02:18:35.799 --> 02:18:38.840 breaks you know, in the breakroom, and you're not answering 2062 02:18:38.920 --> 02:18:43.159 this question where do they come from? Where do they 2063 02:18:43.200 --> 02:18:49.079 come from? Which ends up being an ontological question. Fine, 2064 02:18:50.600 --> 02:18:52.840 he's just saying, well, the question actually brings up a 2065 02:18:52.879 --> 02:18:55.440 bigger question I can answer, which is what's the ontological 2066 02:18:55.479 --> 02:18:59.399 status of logic? Not the question where does it come from? 2067 02:18:59.680 --> 02:19:00.639 Where do they come from? 2068 02:19:01.319 --> 02:19:04.120 That's the quest kind of human humans. It's really annoying 2069 02:19:04.440 --> 02:19:08.280 directions of explanation where some people say, will say, with 2070 02:19:08.280 --> 02:19:10.639 the laws of logic work because we've they are designed 2071 02:19:10.639 --> 02:19:12.440 to fit the world. We have design them to fit 2072 02:19:12.520 --> 02:19:12.799 the world. 2073 02:19:13.280 --> 02:19:15.319 No, we didn't design them to fit the world. No, 2074 02:19:15.600 --> 02:19:20.600 that's just insane. Now we describe something, we describe the 2075 02:19:20.680 --> 02:19:24.840 laws of thought, and the fact that the laws of 2076 02:19:24.920 --> 02:19:28.280 thought are consistent with the world doesn't mean the laws 2077 02:19:28.319 --> 02:19:34.440 of thought are identical to the objects. We didn't describe 2078 02:19:34.559 --> 02:19:40.799 them because they work, because to describe something already appeals 2079 02:19:40.879 --> 02:19:45.440 to the thing is already in existence. They're just like, 2080 02:19:45.600 --> 02:19:49.040 you know, I don't know if Peterson would consider this postmodernism. 2081 02:19:49.680 --> 02:19:55.000 Postmodernism. He's taking a fundamental approach that if you describe something, 2082 02:19:55.040 --> 02:19:57.840 then it's real so long as you accurately describe it 2083 02:19:57.920 --> 02:19:59.879 and it's consistent with reality. 2084 02:20:05.079 --> 02:20:08.840 There's a real shit take, real garbage take. 2085 02:20:09.600 --> 02:20:11.600 And then for a lot of people that's deeply unsatisfactory 2086 02:20:11.600 --> 02:20:13.639 because they say, well, you know what, why does the 2087 02:20:13.680 --> 02:20:15.440 world correspond with the laws of logic? How have we 2088 02:20:15.479 --> 02:20:16.879 been able to do that? Why is the world not 2089 02:20:17.319 --> 02:20:17.879 not chaos? 2090 02:20:18.079 --> 02:20:20.000 And and uh and and. 2091 02:20:20.360 --> 02:20:23.399 Darkness and and lots of other nasty, unpredictable things that 2092 02:20:23.479 --> 02:20:28.000 make logicians nervous and and yeah, and that's a broadly. 2093 02:20:28.319 --> 02:20:32.719 Those are two different questions. The law of identity, the 2094 02:20:32.799 --> 02:20:36.399 law of identity non contradict contradiction excluded, middle could very 2095 02:20:36.479 --> 02:20:41.840 well have its own invariant status, and there could, from 2096 02:20:41.840 --> 02:20:45.399 an atheist view, be a world where it's indiscernible the 2097 02:20:45.760 --> 02:20:48.000 regularity of objects that they pop in and out of 2098 02:20:48.079 --> 02:20:51.959 the existence, like let's like take chair, like anything natural 2099 02:20:52.120 --> 02:20:56.280 like a tree or something else. If suddenly trees shared 2100 02:20:56.319 --> 02:20:59.840 the status of the double slid experiment with as particles. 2101 02:21:00.239 --> 02:21:05.840 From their view, it wouldn't if objects popped into existence 2102 02:21:06.000 --> 02:21:09.680 constantly and never kept their form such that we could 2103 02:21:09.719 --> 02:21:13.040 never categorize them as universals like a tree or an apple, 2104 02:21:13.120 --> 02:21:17.520 or any a circle or whatever. It's not inconsistent from 2105 02:21:17.559 --> 02:21:20.879 an atheist view that the the laws of thought could 2106 02:21:21.239 --> 02:21:27.040 exist and reality hard reality could be completely undiscernible and unintelligible. 2107 02:21:27.719 --> 02:21:32.920 They just think the laws of thought are justified just 2108 02:21:33.040 --> 02:21:37.200 because the reality we have is the reality we have. 2109 02:21:37.360 --> 02:21:40.520 I mean, this is just ad hoc, and I can 2110 02:21:40.559 --> 02:21:45.120 get any one of them to admit when they're pressed 2111 02:21:45.200 --> 02:21:48.920 that the law of identity is not identical to the object. 2112 02:21:49.200 --> 02:21:55.239 You're referring to the law itself that's abiding by itself. 2113 02:21:55.319 --> 02:21:58.760 A is a is not identical to the tree existing. 2114 02:22:01.520 --> 02:22:07.879 Dean lemb gifted one membership appreciate that what will atheism 2115 02:22:07.959 --> 02:22:11.079 sound like when they're forced into absolute corner obtuseness. While 2116 02:22:11.200 --> 02:22:13.479 we hear it most of the time, the problem is Ian. 2117 02:22:16.600 --> 02:22:20.399 The problem is they need the right people to force 2118 02:22:20.479 --> 02:22:24.120 them into those things. And speaking of the right person 2119 02:22:24.159 --> 02:22:27.280 who forces people into those corners, jade ey or what's 2120 02:22:27.280 --> 02:22:27.520 going on? 2121 02:22:27.680 --> 02:22:30.120 Dude? Hey man, what's up? How are you? 2122 02:22:30.719 --> 02:22:33.479 I'm doing good, you know, I'm just getting naturally frustrated 2123 02:22:33.520 --> 02:22:36.159 when you when I do these streams and I start 2124 02:22:36.239 --> 02:22:41.159 to hit my point of sighing and gasping. I don't 2125 02:22:41.159 --> 02:22:44.079 know if he saw this. This is fairly new Alex O'Connor, 2126 02:22:44.360 --> 02:22:46.920 which eventually you'll be able to debate this guy it'll 2127 02:22:46.959 --> 02:22:49.959 be beautiful or this other guy too. I mean, he's 2128 02:22:49.959 --> 02:22:53.479 got a decent channel unsolicited advice. His channel is they're 2129 02:22:53.479 --> 02:22:57.159 talking about answers atheists can't answer. If you missed it, 2130 02:22:57.520 --> 02:23:00.840 why is there something rather than nothing? We covered why 2131 02:23:01.000 --> 02:23:04.440 any why question? In general? Aught is? We covered the 2132 02:23:04.520 --> 02:23:05.239 aught is gap? 2133 02:23:05.799 --> 02:23:05.920 Uh? 2134 02:23:09.079 --> 02:23:12.399 I covered there this video. I'm going through their chapters 2135 02:23:12.479 --> 02:23:16.479 of what they list as the argument the questions the atheists. 2136 02:23:16.000 --> 02:23:18.760 Can't answer, right, But did they cover is art? 2137 02:23:19.559 --> 02:23:19.959 They did? 2138 02:23:20.200 --> 02:23:20.399 Yeah? 2139 02:23:21.200 --> 02:23:25.239 They essentially said, well, the Christian can't uh can't answer 2140 02:23:25.280 --> 02:23:29.280 the art problem either, and and so you're in the 2141 02:23:29.319 --> 02:23:33.000 same problem. And I brought up, well, there's a different question. 2142 02:23:33.319 --> 02:23:37.200 Why ought we be consistent with let's say, is art 2143 02:23:37.520 --> 02:23:42.920 fallacies or following fallacies? Why why aught we pursue true 2144 02:23:43.000 --> 02:23:46.360 things or consistent beliefs at all? Is a bigger question 2145 02:23:46.719 --> 02:23:50.239 that's not listed in this video. And that's a question 2146 02:23:50.360 --> 02:23:52.920 that if they can't answer that, the rest of the 2147 02:23:53.040 --> 02:23:55.239 things that they list are kind of useless anyway, Right, 2148 02:23:55.840 --> 02:23:59.200 So you know, I just wish I wrote the questions 2149 02:23:59.239 --> 02:24:01.719 for their video. What would you write as a question? 2150 02:24:01.879 --> 02:24:03.920 What's something you would ask an atheist you don't think 2151 02:24:03.959 --> 02:24:05.719 they can answer if it's not listed here. 2152 02:24:08.920 --> 02:24:10.479 Well, I haven't seen the list, but I would just 2153 02:24:10.520 --> 02:24:19.799 say stuff like, how are their laws when a law 2154 02:24:19.959 --> 02:24:26.079 cannot be identified with any set of atoms? And if 2155 02:24:26.120 --> 02:24:31.360 they say something like or molecules, well it's a recognition 2156 02:24:31.479 --> 02:24:36.079 of a pattern. To call something a pattern assumes what 2157 02:24:36.319 --> 02:24:39.559 is in question, which is what's the unifying thing between 2158 02:24:39.639 --> 02:24:43.840 these particular instances, And they can never get anything more 2159 02:24:43.879 --> 02:24:46.559 if it's all just molecules. Well, there's not actually any 2160 02:24:47.159 --> 02:24:49.639 similarity between these things unless you want to say, because 2161 02:24:49.680 --> 02:24:53.000 they're all molecules, which doesn't actually tell us any pattern 2162 02:24:53.079 --> 02:24:55.879 because everything's molecules, so really there would be no pattern. 2163 02:24:56.479 --> 02:24:58.879 And this I think derives from the fact, as you're 2164 02:24:58.879 --> 02:25:01.319 probably figuring out as you go through this video, which 2165 02:25:01.360 --> 02:25:03.879 I haven't seen, but I'm assuming because all atheists do 2166 02:25:04.000 --> 02:25:09.360 this just simply that. Look, atheism has to essentially reject 2167 02:25:09.399 --> 02:25:12.879 metaphysics for the most part. Yeah, and then the same 2168 02:25:13.000 --> 02:25:18.920 time pretend that they have some kind of common sense, 2169 02:25:19.760 --> 02:25:23.920 simple way to account for the metaphysics and the principles 2170 02:25:23.959 --> 02:25:27.239 that they're denying. That's always what happens, right. 2171 02:25:27.200 --> 02:25:31.079 Yeah, So an atheist view, which ultimately almost every time 2172 02:25:31.159 --> 02:25:36.000 reduces to physicalism or naturalism. They're engaging with a bunch 2173 02:25:36.079 --> 02:25:41.760 of in their worldview, particulars that don't have a unifying 2174 02:25:41.920 --> 02:25:45.360 principle or law to them. They're all just particulars, and 2175 02:25:45.479 --> 02:25:50.040 that because they occur as they work together, that's enough 2176 02:25:50.120 --> 02:25:52.760 for them to just grant themselves some sort of uniformity. 2177 02:25:53.159 --> 02:25:56.920 But the particulars themselves don't give them the uniformity. 2178 02:25:57.280 --> 02:26:01.000 And what is the law exactly if and usually when 2179 02:26:01.000 --> 02:26:03.680 you drill into it, they just end up being it 2180 02:26:03.799 --> 02:26:05.959 just ends up being a circle. They just restate that 2181 02:26:06.079 --> 02:26:08.479 it's the things that are similar, what are the things 2182 02:26:08.520 --> 02:26:10.719 that are similar, the patterns that are like It's just 2183 02:26:10.840 --> 02:26:13.559 like they can never really give you anything substantial because 2184 02:26:13.559 --> 02:26:17.719 once they admit metaphysical principles, they're in an even deeper 2185 02:26:18.200 --> 02:26:21.000 dilemma because they have to then try to give an 2186 02:26:21.000 --> 02:26:23.799 account for something that most of the time they're positioned 2187 02:26:23.799 --> 02:26:24.680 out of hand. Rejects. 2188 02:26:25.520 --> 02:26:27.600 Dude, every time its just to me, it always goes 2189 02:26:27.639 --> 02:26:30.040 to all his foot. It's it's every single time where 2190 02:26:30.079 --> 02:26:32.719 you're like, well, what's what are you referring to that's 2191 02:26:32.719 --> 02:26:36.079 similar to this other thing he's trying right now, this 2192 02:26:36.200 --> 02:26:38.479 guy by the way, Jay, he's saying that, well, the 2193 02:26:38.639 --> 02:26:42.440 law of the laws of thought are just consistent descriptions 2194 02:26:42.520 --> 02:26:45.680 with how we see the physical world, which obviously is 2195 02:26:45.760 --> 02:26:48.360 appealing to the thing in question because in order to 2196 02:26:48.440 --> 02:26:49.040 engage with it. 2197 02:26:50.440 --> 02:26:54.840 So they're descriptions of the actual physical world or the 2198 02:26:54.920 --> 02:26:57.040 way we see the physical world, because those are two 2199 02:26:57.040 --> 02:26:58.879 different things in the history of empiricism. 2200 02:26:59.639 --> 02:27:02.559 Yeah, so there's the things in the world, and then 2201 02:27:02.760 --> 02:27:05.440 they just grant themselves, well, their interpretation of the things 2202 02:27:05.479 --> 02:27:07.280 in the world are self evident, but that's not true, 2203 02:27:07.360 --> 02:27:11.639 is it? Like so so also, the uniformity of how 2204 02:27:11.799 --> 02:27:16.239 people interpret things in the world has this so coherency. 2205 02:27:16.319 --> 02:27:19.680 It's not identical. We misfire, we get something's wrong, but 2206 02:27:20.000 --> 02:27:24.239 there's a general unity between mind concepts in the material world. 2207 02:27:24.760 --> 02:27:28.200 And those are particular things under the atheists that they 2208 02:27:28.239 --> 02:27:31.639 can't even justify, but let alone that they work together. 2209 02:27:32.000 --> 02:27:33.639 That's two different things correct. 2210 02:27:33.680 --> 02:27:36.040 And then there's another layer two, which has often missed 2211 02:27:36.159 --> 02:27:39.680 because a lot of people don't do anything with linguistic philosophy. 2212 02:27:40.200 --> 02:27:42.760 And I'm not a linguistic philosophy expert, but I had 2213 02:27:42.879 --> 02:27:46.360 enough of it to notice some of the big flaws 2214 02:27:46.479 --> 02:27:48.799 or the big holes in the atheist position, which is 2215 02:27:48.879 --> 02:27:51.799 that if you get into the nitty gritty of linguistic philosophy, 2216 02:27:51.840 --> 02:27:55.239 you start to realize there's a difference between a proposition, 2217 02:27:55.440 --> 02:27:58.920 like the truth value of the proposition and what it's 2218 02:27:58.959 --> 02:28:02.959 referring to. So to say that nature operates in a 2219 02:28:03.120 --> 02:28:06.799 lawlike fashion, there's a truth value there that's assumed that's 2220 02:28:06.840 --> 02:28:10.559 not reducible to identical to the symbols on the page 2221 02:28:10.639 --> 02:28:12.360 or the words coming out of your mouth, or the 2222 02:28:12.479 --> 02:28:18.360 breath coming out of your mouth, or the things themselves. 2223 02:28:18.799 --> 02:28:21.760 So you see that there's different layers going on, and 2224 02:28:21.840 --> 02:28:27.680 almost always, because of their stupidity, their reductionism, their lack 2225 02:28:27.719 --> 02:28:31.600 of knowledge of philosophy, they always collapse everything. So if 2226 02:28:31.639 --> 02:28:34.719 you were to actually start to distinguish these things, they 2227 02:28:34.840 --> 02:28:37.120 really would kind of, you know, they become deer in 2228 02:28:37.159 --> 02:28:40.319 the headlights because they've never thought about distinguishing those things, 2229 02:28:40.639 --> 02:28:44.879 the proposition itself, the truth value of the proposition, which 2230 02:28:44.959 --> 02:28:49.159 is in some way universal, and the things themselves the reference. 2231 02:28:50.559 --> 02:28:55.159 Yeah. And by the way, I've argued that when I 2232 02:28:55.280 --> 02:29:01.239 argued that from the physicalist atheist view that laws, evaluations, 2233 02:29:01.280 --> 02:29:04.000 and propositions, if they're reduced to material end up just 2234 02:29:04.040 --> 02:29:08.159 being effects of previous mechanical physics. But I granted them 2235 02:29:08.200 --> 02:29:10.600 too much in that video because I use laws of 2236 02:29:10.600 --> 02:29:13.639 physics that's already a whole category that's in question that 2237 02:29:13.680 --> 02:29:15.959 I shouldn't grant them, so instead I got it reduced 2238 02:29:16.000 --> 02:29:19.360 to well, for the knowledge to be possible under the 2239 02:29:19.399 --> 02:29:22.719 atheist physicalist view is that you have to have a 2240 02:29:22.840 --> 02:29:26.639 meaningful distinction between a reference and a reference. And what's 2241 02:29:26.680 --> 02:29:29.719 fascinating about their view is that every new reference that 2242 02:29:29.799 --> 02:29:31.840 they grant themselves under their own view, is just a 2243 02:29:31.920 --> 02:29:34.399 new event in time, which means it's a reference. Now, 2244 02:29:34.559 --> 02:29:37.639 so it's like a percolation from the brain, some weird 2245 02:29:37.680 --> 02:29:41.200 epiphenomenal thing happens, a brain fart, and they call that 2246 02:29:41.319 --> 02:29:44.879 the evaluation or the proposition about the other thing that's physical, right, Oh, 2247 02:29:45.000 --> 02:29:47.719 this other thing called a tree or my thoughts. Well, no, 2248 02:29:48.239 --> 02:29:50.639 now you're stuck with a thing called a reference, which 2249 02:29:50.719 --> 02:29:53.360 is another event that you need an evaluator for. 2250 02:29:55.760 --> 02:30:00.200 And hears over in the mind over time, right, not 2251 02:30:00.360 --> 02:30:02.120 just identity over time in terms of the objects, but 2252 02:30:02.159 --> 02:30:06.440 if they predicate meaning of some object or some subject 2253 02:30:06.559 --> 02:30:09.680 or whatever, the idea is that there's the same meaning 2254 02:30:09.719 --> 02:30:11.600 that's going on in my head is actually matching up 2255 02:30:11.680 --> 02:30:13.479 over time to the objects in the world which have 2256 02:30:13.600 --> 02:30:16.760 identity over time. So the more you dissect this, the 2257 02:30:16.879 --> 02:30:20.399 more it really is resting on all kinds of things 2258 02:30:20.479 --> 02:30:23.079 that they just never even thought of. And most of 2259 02:30:23.079 --> 02:30:24.840 the time they don't know what you're asking. When you're 2260 02:30:24.840 --> 02:30:25.959 asking these questions. 2261 02:30:26.079 --> 02:30:29.120 I'm trying to find ways to draw this in like, 2262 02:30:29.559 --> 02:30:32.239 you know, not a huge insult, but it's just kind 2263 02:30:32.239 --> 02:30:36.639 of funny. Like in basically whiteboard crayon stuff to show 2264 02:30:36.879 --> 02:30:39.440 physically what I mean, because you know why, because if 2265 02:30:39.520 --> 02:30:43.239 you defend physicalism, you really do have to Yeah, whiteboard, 2266 02:30:43.479 --> 02:30:46.559 you really have to tell me the difference between a 2267 02:30:46.639 --> 02:30:49.680 bunch of molecules you call a water for fall or bubbling, 2268 02:30:49.840 --> 02:30:52.799 or a tree, and the molecules you call in the 2269 02:30:52.879 --> 02:30:56.639 brain called thinking and evaluating, and the difference between those. 2270 02:30:56.840 --> 02:30:59.520 You're gonna have to tell me physically, the difference between 2271 02:30:59.559 --> 02:31:02.319 the two such that one has the capacity to be 2272 02:31:02.440 --> 02:31:04.719 true fapped and the other is just an object in space. 2273 02:31:04.920 --> 02:31:07.760 They never quite understand what I'm asking, So I'm trying 2274 02:31:07.840 --> 02:31:10.639 to get better at just doodling and maybe put it 2275 02:31:10.760 --> 02:31:13.959 up on a board. You know, the whiteboard wins every time, 2276 02:31:14.040 --> 02:31:14.399 doesn't it. 2277 02:31:14.879 --> 02:31:17.000 Yeah, I mean, if I write this out this proposition 2278 02:31:17.200 --> 02:31:23.159 nature is Lawlike I mean, this is a series of 2279 02:31:23.200 --> 02:31:27.879 symbols on a board that refers to what thing I mean. 2280 02:31:27.959 --> 02:31:32.680 It's not obviously referring to any specific particulars in nature. 2281 02:31:33.399 --> 02:31:37.680 It's referring to this supposedly universal pattern. And to make 2282 02:31:37.719 --> 02:31:40.680 it universal will add all nature because they typically do 2283 02:31:40.840 --> 02:31:47.159 make universal quantifier claims all nature is Lawlike, Okay, what 2284 02:31:48.600 --> 02:31:51.280 what's the truth? They are assuming that this is a 2285 02:31:51.360 --> 02:31:55.719 true proposition, not a false proposition. So the truth value 2286 02:31:55.840 --> 02:31:59.840 is not identical to the symbols themselves, right, And the 2287 02:32:00.079 --> 02:32:03.879 phrase is referring to something other than either just the 2288 02:32:04.000 --> 02:32:08.959 truth value or the particular instances. So in other words, 2289 02:32:09.040 --> 02:32:12.360 we've got all of these layers of stuff with absolutely 2290 02:32:12.440 --> 02:32:16.719 no explanation. And that's just the sentence itself. What about 2291 02:32:16.879 --> 02:32:19.040 the things going on in my head, which I'm assuming 2292 02:32:19.760 --> 02:32:23.120 are conveying meaning about the external world over time? That 2293 02:32:23.600 --> 02:32:26.719 meaning stays the same in terms of the identity of 2294 02:32:26.760 --> 02:32:28.520 objects out there over time and the meaning in my 2295 02:32:28.559 --> 02:32:31.799 head over time, because remember, I'm just chemical reactions firing. 2296 02:32:32.159 --> 02:32:35.040 What if the meaning that I thought yesterday for all 2297 02:32:35.159 --> 02:32:39.719 Nature's lawlike has completely fired to be the opposite meaning today, right, 2298 02:32:40.319 --> 02:32:42.280 I mean it's just and not just the meaning of 2299 02:32:42.360 --> 02:32:44.920 the phrase. What about these individual words themselves? So you 2300 02:32:44.959 --> 02:32:48.639 can break you down into individuals, right? Right? What is 2301 02:32:48.760 --> 02:32:49.399 all nature? 2302 02:32:49.440 --> 02:32:49.559 You know? 2303 02:32:50.079 --> 02:32:53.000 Just at any point if you think about it linguistically. 2304 02:32:53.399 --> 02:32:55.200 And I'm not telling you what they were saying in 2305 02:32:55.200 --> 02:32:58.200 the sure you saying like, nobody really goes after the 2306 02:32:58.239 --> 02:33:00.719 atheists on this, not because of any being stupid and 2307 02:33:00.840 --> 02:33:03.360 on our side. But just people just don't even realize 2308 02:33:03.440 --> 02:33:06.719 how much goes into Like to be able to make 2309 02:33:06.760 --> 02:33:09.479 a sentence meaningful requires a certain kind of world. 2310 02:33:10.040 --> 02:33:12.639 Yeah, and it's a crazy world. If you're going to 2311 02:33:12.680 --> 02:33:15.159 try to explain it in just particulars that are unrelated, 2312 02:33:15.319 --> 02:33:16.680 it can't. Well just you can't. 2313 02:33:17.079 --> 02:33:21.040 Chaotic molecules firing of unrelated particulars. Yeah. 2314 02:33:21.200 --> 02:33:24.040 Also that brings up the law thing in general, even 2315 02:33:24.040 --> 02:33:27.120 if you said granted them the statement nature's law, like 2316 02:33:28.040 --> 02:33:32.520 I always like to put it, like, Okay, objects exist, right, 2317 02:33:32.600 --> 02:33:35.760 forget about how you're going to justify how objects exist 2318 02:33:35.879 --> 02:33:38.280 and what their beginnings are. You know, stuff comes from stuff. 2319 02:33:38.319 --> 02:33:41.440 As an argument I've been debunking the last couple of months. 2320 02:33:42.959 --> 02:33:46.239 The stuff, even the collection of the stuff, let alone 2321 02:33:46.280 --> 02:33:49.639 the particular stuffs that you're listening. They don't give you 2322 02:33:50.360 --> 02:33:53.360 the justification for how they behave with each other. Those 2323 02:33:53.399 --> 02:33:56.159 are two different things, but they grant them. They're they're 2324 02:33:56.239 --> 02:33:58.799 the same. Well, no, we have a tree, and because 2325 02:33:58.840 --> 02:34:01.399 we have a tree, we're just throw into the basket. 2326 02:34:01.719 --> 02:34:04.360 It operates a certain way right by nature of it 2327 02:34:04.559 --> 02:34:07.440 just being a tree. But you're like, well, no, these 2328 02:34:07.479 --> 02:34:10.840 things are all working together. It's not like the object 2329 02:34:10.959 --> 02:34:16.760 existing gives you how the relationships physically, causal relationships and 2330 02:34:16.840 --> 02:34:20.479 behaviors that that you that you observe. That's not the 2331 02:34:20.520 --> 02:34:23.200 same thing. But they're like, no, no, it is the 2332 02:34:23.239 --> 02:34:25.799 same thing because we you know, that's how we observe it. Well, no, 2333 02:34:26.040 --> 02:34:28.920 that's not you know, you're you're just granting yourself a bunch. 2334 02:34:28.959 --> 02:34:30.360 But let me let me move on. You tell me 2335 02:34:30.559 --> 02:34:32.280 Jay when to stop. We're gonna listen to this guy. 2336 02:34:32.399 --> 02:34:35.840 He's in the he's currently trying to argue if, uh, 2337 02:34:36.200 --> 02:34:38.600 you know, if we observe the law the world a 2338 02:34:38.680 --> 02:34:41.200 different way, we can just change the laws of logic 2339 02:34:41.280 --> 02:34:43.159 to suit that world. I don't know if you heard 2340 02:34:43.280 --> 02:34:46.680 my refutation of this that if you said I observe 2341 02:34:46.760 --> 02:34:50.079 the world a certain way, and if I observed it 2342 02:34:50.120 --> 02:34:52.520 a certain way such that I can conventionally change the 2343 02:34:52.639 --> 02:34:55.559 laws of thought, you're actually using one standard of the 2344 02:34:55.680 --> 02:34:57.760 laws of thought to perceive the world a certain way 2345 02:34:58.079 --> 02:35:00.520 and trusting that is true in order to come to 2346 02:35:00.680 --> 02:35:06.159 some conventional alteration to what you perceived right to fit it. Well, 2347 02:35:06.559 --> 02:35:09.879 this conventional view of changing the law of identity, so 2348 02:35:10.000 --> 02:35:12.520 long as it fits. Whatever you're observing assumes the law 2349 02:35:12.520 --> 02:35:15.840 of identity, doesn't it Like, you can't change the thing 2350 02:35:16.200 --> 02:35:20.239 you're ultimately using to discern what's going on. It makes 2351 02:35:20.280 --> 02:35:21.360 no sense to go backward. 2352 02:35:21.479 --> 02:35:25.479 Yeah, I mean if then they're no longer laws different, 2353 02:35:25.600 --> 02:35:28.280 I mean, if they could be otherwise they're not. 2354 02:35:28.719 --> 02:35:32.959 They're not laws right right, And you're and you're appealing 2355 02:35:33.040 --> 02:35:36.799 to something you're calling law like uh, to observe it 2356 02:35:36.959 --> 02:35:38.840 and then going well I'm gonna change it. Well, no, 2357 02:35:38.959 --> 02:35:41.799 you're you're trusting the thing you observe to begin with. 2358 02:35:41.920 --> 02:35:45.079 That doesn't doesn't make sense anyway. Let them ramble on that. 2359 02:35:45.239 --> 02:35:47.360 That strikes me as a sensible question, right, and and 2360 02:35:47.479 --> 02:35:50.360 and and often you know, and the kind of the 2361 02:35:50.440 --> 02:35:53.760 only answer that that somebody who suggests that who's doing 2362 02:35:53.840 --> 02:35:57.399 the human direction the metaphysical human direction explanation, that is 2363 02:35:57.479 --> 02:35:59.319 to say something like, well, if the world have been 2364 02:35:59.360 --> 02:36:01.200 different than the laws of logic would have been different, 2365 02:36:01.440 --> 02:36:04.879 and we would have made different laws of logic, and like, well, 2366 02:36:04.959 --> 02:36:07.159 let me see if he pushes back on that, I 2367 02:36:07.239 --> 02:36:10.399 can kind of get I sort of some again. I 2368 02:36:10.479 --> 02:36:12.399 go back and forth mis intuitively, where sometimes I find 2369 02:36:12.440 --> 02:36:14.840 this like incredibly unsatisfying, and sometimes I'm like, okay that 2370 02:36:14.920 --> 02:36:17.920 maybe there's something in this because we do do things 2371 02:36:18.000 --> 02:36:20.559 like reason with uncertainty, because we have probability for reasoning 2372 02:36:20.600 --> 02:36:24.239 with uncertainty. We if if the world, if we were 2373 02:36:24.280 --> 02:36:26.639 never uncertain about anything, we wouldn't have had probability, there 2374 02:36:26.680 --> 02:36:30.120 would be no need for it. Likewise, if there if 2375 02:36:30.239 --> 02:36:33.239 deduction was always uncertain for whatever reason, like that was 2376 02:36:33.280 --> 02:36:34.959 just empirically true in the world, as weird as that 2377 02:36:35.040 --> 02:36:40.159 is to say, then our deductions would have uncertainty attached 2378 02:36:40.159 --> 02:36:41.920 to them and stuff like that. So there's there's an 2379 02:36:42.000 --> 02:36:43.840 argument that you can you can you can say there, 2380 02:36:44.000 --> 02:36:46.120 but then we're also at this point. 2381 02:36:46.079 --> 02:36:49.799 He's also conflating right now, the methods we use to 2382 02:36:49.879 --> 02:36:54.639 do induction or deduction, deduction being certain, induction being probabilistic, 2383 02:36:55.879 --> 02:36:58.159 are identical to the laws that we use to do 2384 02:36:58.319 --> 02:37:01.399 those things. The question is in the methods you use, 2385 02:37:01.559 --> 02:37:04.639 but rather the laws that govern the methods of reasoning. 2386 02:37:05.120 --> 02:37:07.159 And I don't know why they always collapse these two. 2387 02:37:07.159 --> 02:37:10.440 It's like the laws of thought are not identical to 2388 02:37:10.559 --> 02:37:13.000 the descriptions of them, Like there's a law of identity 2389 02:37:13.239 --> 02:37:16.840 that exists in some weird some way. Right, that's not 2390 02:37:16.959 --> 02:37:20.319 identical to our ability to describe that in a three 2391 02:37:20.479 --> 02:37:22.680 statement bullet point. 2392 02:37:22.799 --> 02:37:28.520 Right. Yeah, I mean the first phrase that I'm still 2393 02:37:28.559 --> 02:37:30.360 trying to think through that he said that I think 2394 02:37:30.520 --> 02:37:36.000 was wrong is that we would make we made these 2395 02:37:36.120 --> 02:37:41.639 laws right. In fact, they're discoveries, they're not creations. So 2396 02:37:42.639 --> 02:37:46.479 because atheists don't believe in you know, divine truth or 2397 02:37:46.680 --> 02:37:50.440 the divine mind, they assume that all this stuff has 2398 02:37:50.559 --> 02:37:53.280 to be some sort of human social construct or some 2399 02:37:53.399 --> 02:37:56.959 individual that made them or created them. So even though 2400 02:37:57.000 --> 02:38:00.520 aerosol might be the source of the you know, classical 2401 02:38:00.600 --> 02:38:04.479 laws or whatever, we would say he's discovering something. And 2402 02:38:04.600 --> 02:38:07.799 even mathematicians nowadays will say that a lot of the 2403 02:38:07.879 --> 02:38:11.479 things that they that they've discovered, like Mandelbrot sets, it's 2404 02:38:11.479 --> 02:38:14.239 impossible for those to be made up by the human mind. 2405 02:38:15.040 --> 02:38:19.719 Yeah. Also, something really obvious here is that to say 2406 02:38:19.840 --> 02:38:24.600 someone created something is to assume the law of identity 2407 02:38:24.959 --> 02:38:28.200 before you're creating the law of identity. Like, this is 2408 02:38:28.280 --> 02:38:30.520 why it's fun when I talk to these people when 2409 02:38:30.559 --> 02:38:33.600 they assume axioms. They're like, they're like, I just you know, 2410 02:38:33.760 --> 02:38:38.120 we developed the laws of thought, the three classical laws 2411 02:38:38.120 --> 02:38:40.479 as axioms, and I say, how do you develop something 2412 02:38:40.639 --> 02:38:43.200 without using the thing that you're saying you're developing? 2413 02:38:43.280 --> 02:38:46.520 It's impossible, right, So it's like, yeah, it's just stupid, 2414 02:38:46.600 --> 02:38:49.799 like if they actually think that it didn't exist before that. 2415 02:38:50.040 --> 02:38:52.120 So in other words, two rocks and two rocks wasn't 2416 02:38:52.159 --> 02:38:55.040 four rocks until somebody decided. 2417 02:38:54.559 --> 02:38:57.200 That it was for all right, right yeah, as opposed 2418 02:38:57.239 --> 02:38:59.959 to if you discover the law the laws of thought, 2419 02:39:00.600 --> 02:39:03.280 the math of two plus two is derivative of the 2420 02:39:03.399 --> 02:39:08.360 laws of logic, and that that too, right, you know, 2421 02:39:08.520 --> 02:39:11.239 is under some sort of discovery and not from a creation. 2422 02:39:11.399 --> 02:39:13.760 It's no, you don't create, it's not creative. 2423 02:39:15.319 --> 02:39:19.079 There's an eternal truth that humans have the ability to discover. 2424 02:39:19.639 --> 02:39:22.680 Mm hmm, as opposed to invent, and if it's invented, 2425 02:39:22.879 --> 02:39:25.879 create no discovery. Yeah yeah, if you're creating the truth, 2426 02:39:26.239 --> 02:39:28.680 you could just create a not a truth tomorrow and 2427 02:39:28.959 --> 02:39:31.600 wouldn't have any problems. So, you know, the pursuit of truth. 2428 02:39:31.680 --> 02:39:33.840 In other words, you can just make it absurd and 2429 02:39:33.959 --> 02:39:39.280 say so. Until Aristotle listed the law of identity, nothing 2430 02:39:39.360 --> 02:39:39.959 had identity. 2431 02:39:40.120 --> 02:39:43.520 Nothing identity Yeah, yeah, even him, even Aristotle. You know 2432 02:39:43.879 --> 02:39:45.479 there was no there was no hymn. 2433 02:39:45.559 --> 02:39:45.760 Yeah. 2434 02:39:47.079 --> 02:39:48.959 Something we talked about the beginning of the episode, which 2435 02:39:49.000 --> 02:39:50.440 is what is the limits of possibility? 2436 02:39:51.079 --> 02:39:51.200 Uh? 2437 02:39:51.600 --> 02:39:51.920 Is it is? 2438 02:39:52.000 --> 02:39:52.040 It? 2439 02:39:52.239 --> 02:39:53.959 Is it in some sense impossible for the loss of 2440 02:39:54.040 --> 02:39:56.000 logic to have been different because like the lads of logic, 2441 02:39:57.440 --> 02:39:59.360 that's a component as well, because the laws of logic 2442 02:39:59.440 --> 02:40:03.200 all themselves kind of controversial. So you know things like that, 2443 02:40:03.520 --> 02:40:06.440 you know, a few a few uncontroversial as well as 2444 02:40:06.520 --> 02:40:07.440 uncontroversial as anything. 2445 02:40:07.600 --> 02:40:09.440 Well, I mean, by the way, the fact that something 2446 02:40:09.520 --> 02:40:13.360 is controversial or I mean that I'm guessing they're going 2447 02:40:13.440 --> 02:40:14.079 to probably get. 2448 02:40:14.000 --> 02:40:15.920 Into fuzzy logic or something. 2449 02:40:16.040 --> 02:40:18.159 Well, the foulas give incredulity. Like when you were talking 2450 02:40:18.159 --> 02:40:24.239 about his account of saying that Christians they don't have 2451 02:40:24.280 --> 02:40:27.200 an answer is ought and I'm thinking, I didn't hear 2452 02:40:27.239 --> 02:40:30.239 what they said, but I'm guessing it was probably that 2453 02:40:30.360 --> 02:40:33.440 they have a they don't understand or consider it to 2454 02:40:33.520 --> 02:40:36.040 be a sufficient answer. Right when when a Christian says 2455 02:40:36.079 --> 02:40:38.760 that God is the reasoning for and they would probably 2456 02:40:38.799 --> 02:40:41.239 say something like, well, I find that hard to believe. 2457 02:40:41.280 --> 02:40:43.840 I don't see how that's a good answer. And so well, 2458 02:40:43.879 --> 02:40:46.920 the fact that even the laws of logic are controversial. 2459 02:40:47.200 --> 02:40:51.559 That has nothing to do with whether they're necessary for predication, right. 2460 02:40:51.479 --> 02:40:57.000 Yeah, whether they're not con controversial or controversial is irrelevant to. 2461 02:40:57.559 --> 02:41:01.840 It's like what people say, Well, Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox 2462 02:41:02.360 --> 02:41:04.600 disagree over the Church of the first thousand years, so 2463 02:41:04.879 --> 02:41:07.520 we can't know. Well, the fact people disagree is irrelevant 2464 02:41:07.559 --> 02:41:08.840 to whether it's for false. 2465 02:41:08.879 --> 02:41:10.559 Yeah, I got you. Yeah, that seems to be a 2466 02:41:10.639 --> 02:41:14.079 good safeguard from coming to any certain conclusion about it, 2467 02:41:14.120 --> 02:41:16.840 which is all they've done so far. They haven't really 2468 02:41:17.719 --> 02:41:19.920 said no, we can answer that question. They're kind of 2469 02:41:20.000 --> 02:41:25.600 being I would even say humble in their responses so far. 2470 02:41:25.479 --> 02:41:29.520 A implied to be then dumb from humble b stuff 2471 02:41:29.600 --> 02:41:32.920 like that. One of the one of the less controversial 2472 02:41:32.959 --> 02:41:35.440 ones is the law of non contradictions. So you not 2473 02:41:35.959 --> 02:41:39.120 a and not a, So if you have a, you 2474 02:41:39.200 --> 02:41:39.959 can infer. 2475 02:41:39.879 --> 02:41:41.680 Not, So something can't be true and false at the 2476 02:41:41.680 --> 02:41:42.000 same time. 2477 02:41:42.079 --> 02:41:44.239 Yeah, basically, I mean it's it's very intuitive, right, but 2478 02:41:44.319 --> 02:41:46.040 but but but there are people that you say not 2479 02:41:46.159 --> 02:41:50.000 as in it's true that not brackets. 2480 02:41:50.159 --> 02:41:51.559 A and not a. 2481 02:41:52.079 --> 02:41:52.840 So I mean I don't know. 2482 02:41:52.920 --> 02:41:55.079 Now, another thing, Jay, I know you covered this. But 2483 02:41:55.360 --> 02:41:59.159 if you're just purely relying on science and induction and 2484 02:41:59.239 --> 02:42:02.879 you believe that everything's in flux, then there is no 2485 02:42:03.360 --> 02:42:07.120 maintained identity of a at the molecular or the larger 2486 02:42:07.319 --> 02:42:08.920 scale of the thing you're referring to. 2487 02:42:09.280 --> 02:42:13.760 So now that they believe in flying spaghetti monsters called 2488 02:42:13.959 --> 02:42:15.440 laws of love, right. 2489 02:42:15.440 --> 02:42:17.719 Right, totally, and it's always changed if it's in flux, 2490 02:42:17.920 --> 02:42:20.559 then the thing you're constantly referring to to make statements 2491 02:42:21.040 --> 02:42:23.959 when they say, well, a can't be not a and 2492 02:42:24.040 --> 02:42:26.200 this is a law, well, well, if the thing you're 2493 02:42:26.239 --> 02:42:28.799 referring to out in the world is always changing, you 2494 02:42:28.920 --> 02:42:33.120 could actually say that there is only one instance that's 2495 02:42:33.280 --> 02:42:36.479 that's tiny in the fraction of time where something existed 2496 02:42:36.559 --> 02:42:40.760 as purely itself and everything else is some weird changed 2497 02:42:40.920 --> 02:42:44.479 version of that even at the molecular level. They would 2498 02:42:44.520 --> 02:42:50.120 have to argue that even them granting themselves induction to 2499 02:42:50.280 --> 02:42:54.639 do inductive reasoning is the assumption that that that's not 2500 02:42:54.760 --> 02:42:58.239 the case, that things are always in flux at every level. 2501 02:42:58.639 --> 02:43:02.000 But yet they some of them argue that that's what 2502 02:43:02.120 --> 02:43:06.319 they've come to a conclusion. As a conclusion doing their 2503 02:43:06.360 --> 02:43:09.120 reasoning is that everything's in flux, and you're like, including 2504 02:43:09.159 --> 02:43:11.319 your reasoning is an old one that even Bonds and 2505 02:43:11.360 --> 02:43:13.920 I guess would would have popularized maybe before that is 2506 02:43:13.959 --> 02:43:16.840 that he's just saying, well, no, the flux position of 2507 02:43:16.959 --> 02:43:20.680 rationality and molecules in motion, you're referring to something that 2508 02:43:20.840 --> 02:43:24.079 no longer existed as itself called the molecules in a 2509 02:43:24.159 --> 02:43:27.920 particular pattern. So what the hell is it you're trusting 2510 02:43:28.200 --> 02:43:29.120 right now and you. 2511 02:43:29.120 --> 02:43:31.479 Couldn't even identify molecules without right. 2512 02:43:33.559 --> 02:43:35.520 And make like a little little icon pop up. 2513 02:43:36.520 --> 02:43:39.799 We're getting getting a hard no from our video not 2514 02:43:40.600 --> 02:43:44.440 a and not a and close bracket and there's but 2515 02:43:44.520 --> 02:43:46.680 there's there're also more controversial logical laws, like the law 2516 02:43:46.719 --> 02:43:49.440 of the excluded middle, which is, oh, I always get this. 2517 02:43:49.479 --> 02:43:51.239 Actually that's let's just say. 2518 02:43:51.719 --> 02:43:53.959 Something can only be tru or false, be true false. 2519 02:43:54.040 --> 02:43:55.440 There are two really similar laws here. 2520 02:43:55.520 --> 02:43:56.879 So one is the law of the excuded middle, and 2521 02:43:56.920 --> 02:43:58.680 one is by valence and some reason, I always get 2522 02:43:58.680 --> 02:44:02.120 them the wrong around, like completely roasted by supervisors. 2523 02:44:02.239 --> 02:44:03.360 But what's the what's the difference? 2524 02:44:03.479 --> 02:44:05.479 Well, so loa of the law of excar middle is 2525 02:44:05.520 --> 02:44:07.799 something is either a or not a. The law of vivalences. 2526 02:44:07.840 --> 02:44:11.159 Any statement is either true or false, and they're clearly connected. 2527 02:44:11.239 --> 02:44:14.000 But they are different in the way. Well they're distinct 2528 02:44:14.120 --> 02:44:14.600 in the way that. 2529 02:44:16.120 --> 02:44:17.360 They have been misusing that too. 2530 02:44:18.239 --> 02:44:20.639 But I mean I misuse it all the time, and 2531 02:44:20.680 --> 02:44:21.520 I meant to know about this. 2532 02:44:21.840 --> 02:44:25.120 It's like I always say whatever, man, Yeah, exactly. 2533 02:44:26.760 --> 02:44:29.600 So, Jay, would you say the three classical laws are 2534 02:44:29.760 --> 02:44:35.200 distinct from each other on their own or are they 2535 02:44:35.440 --> 02:44:37.440 entailments of each other? And you don't know where the 2536 02:44:37.479 --> 02:44:39.399 starting point is necessarily. 2537 02:44:40.040 --> 02:44:43.479 Like it like it's they assitate each other. There's not 2538 02:44:43.600 --> 02:44:45.520 really a starting point, gotcha. 2539 02:44:46.040 --> 02:44:48.680 So here are some examples of the kinds of laws 2540 02:44:48.680 --> 02:44:52.680 that we're talking about, These kinds of like fundamental, seemingly 2541 02:44:52.799 --> 02:44:59.639 self justifying, self intuitive, like like bases You don't it? 2542 02:44:59.719 --> 02:45:03.040 I mean like if A implies B. That is, like 2543 02:45:03.159 --> 02:45:08.040 if A then B A, therefore B. Well, how do 2544 02:45:08.079 --> 02:45:09.680 you how do you how do you know that? It 2545 02:45:10.120 --> 02:45:12.680 just seems like you're kind of saying the same thing twice. 2546 02:45:12.760 --> 02:45:15.120 Yeah, it just has to be true. Yes, what if 2547 02:45:15.159 --> 02:45:17.799 you don't have this, what do you have? So the 2548 02:45:18.280 --> 02:45:19.799 one of the one of the quotes of classical logic 2549 02:45:19.879 --> 02:45:22.639 is that you can and a contradiction implies anything, and. 2550 02:45:23.760 --> 02:45:26.360 So if jay, so if the atheist says, well we 2551 02:45:26.440 --> 02:45:29.600 accept logic, whether we call it axiomatic or not, we 2552 02:45:29.760 --> 02:45:32.479 can't not accept it because it's it's a contradiction to 2553 02:45:32.600 --> 02:45:36.399 attempt to reject it. Now, is that sufficient in just 2554 02:45:36.520 --> 02:45:37.799 one level of argumentation? 2555 02:45:37.959 --> 02:45:38.000 No? 2556 02:45:38.719 --> 02:45:40.360 Can you talk on that quickly? 2557 02:45:40.399 --> 02:45:43.440 Yeah, there's a great section on this in the Russ 2558 02:45:43.520 --> 02:45:46.600 Manion paper where he covers this. Because you might think 2559 02:45:46.680 --> 02:45:50.239 that just pointing out that we absolutely have to have 2560 02:45:50.440 --> 02:45:55.360 logic might make it a justification, but as Manion points 2561 02:45:55.399 --> 02:45:59.399 out in the paper, just saying that it appears to 2562 02:45:59.520 --> 02:46:04.120 be NICs necessary for predication doesn't mean that it's the case. 2563 02:46:04.399 --> 02:46:07.440 It also doesn't tell me that my mental schema of 2564 02:46:07.520 --> 02:46:10.639 what's necessary for me to have predication necessarily applies to 2565 02:46:10.680 --> 02:46:13.959 anything in the world. So that's why you need more 2566 02:46:14.159 --> 02:46:18.760 for the justification of these things than just the idea that, well, 2567 02:46:18.840 --> 02:46:22.360 it appears to be irrational to deny it them, because 2568 02:46:22.360 --> 02:46:24.520 a lot of times if you for example, the first 2569 02:46:24.680 --> 02:46:27.000 argument I have with Tim Gordon and DMS four years 2570 02:46:27.000 --> 02:46:31.079 ago was I mentioned this point and he said, well, 2571 02:46:31.120 --> 02:46:35.840 you're just talking about retortion, which is Aristotle's reductio Aerosotl says, 2572 02:46:35.840 --> 02:46:39.079 I if you disagree with the classical laws of logic 2573 02:46:39.200 --> 02:46:41.959 or the three you know law of identity, you are 2574 02:46:43.399 --> 02:46:47.399 not just assuming it to use it. But there's a 2575 02:46:47.479 --> 02:46:52.120 reductio here that without it, logic would be impossible. So 2576 02:46:52.440 --> 02:46:55.920 that's true, and it's correct to say that. But as 2577 02:46:56.000 --> 02:46:59.639 the manupaper shows post cont remember people at aerosols on 2578 02:46:59.639 --> 02:47:02.399 they didn't think the way count and human did. After 2579 02:47:02.559 --> 02:47:06.079 kunt other questions get raised. The show that you need 2580 02:47:06.200 --> 02:47:10.319 more for epistemic justification than just saying that it appears 2581 02:47:10.399 --> 02:47:14.399 to be crazy. Otherwise, you need a stronger case, which 2582 02:47:14.479 --> 02:47:18.680 is why you have to also argue that there are 2583 02:47:18.760 --> 02:47:21.440 all these other sort of transcenital category. In other words, 2584 02:47:21.440 --> 02:47:24.840 you need a worldview that goes along with these things. 2585 02:47:25.000 --> 02:47:28.440 You can't just have these as self evidence starting principles, 2586 02:47:28.479 --> 02:47:31.680 because again that might be a little am I getting there? 2587 02:47:31.920 --> 02:47:34.239 I understand it. It sounds like just to translate here 2588 02:47:34.479 --> 02:47:39.680 is that pointing to the necessary the necessary existence of 2589 02:47:39.760 --> 02:47:44.559 one thing isn't sufficient because there's a whole slew of 2590 02:47:44.639 --> 02:47:47.239 other things that need to be the case alltogether. Is 2591 02:47:47.319 --> 02:47:50.120 one thing that for that to operate. So, for instance, 2592 02:47:50.200 --> 02:47:52.440 if I come to the conclusion of rejecting the law 2593 02:47:52.440 --> 02:47:55.079 of identities absurd, therefore I shouldn't do it. Or like 2594 02:47:55.440 --> 02:47:58.799 Christopher Hitchins was like, well, people ask me if I 2595 02:47:58.879 --> 02:48:02.200 have free will and I the choice otherwise, right, Yeah, 2596 02:48:02.360 --> 02:48:02.920 this kind of thing. 2597 02:48:02.920 --> 02:48:06.440 That will give you the justification for the principle itself. 2598 02:48:06.520 --> 02:48:09.319 Gotcha? Yeah, because there's just one isolated instance that you're 2599 02:48:09.360 --> 02:48:12.680 referring to. Even if you granted, okay, fine, it's absurd 2600 02:48:12.760 --> 02:48:17.520 to reject it. To reject something assumes the mind. Now 2601 02:48:17.559 --> 02:48:20.319 you have another thing that is absurd to reject. And 2602 02:48:20.440 --> 02:48:22.680 now how many things can you put in the basket 2603 02:48:22.799 --> 02:48:25.520 that are observed to reject? Well, we would call would 2604 02:48:25.719 --> 02:48:28.319 correct me if I'm wrong, the things that are absurd 2605 02:48:28.399 --> 02:48:32.399 to reject for anyone to reject as a folder of 2606 02:48:32.559 --> 02:48:36.760 a giant folder called the transcendental category itself, the whole 2607 02:48:36.840 --> 02:48:40.879 list of things we can point to. The only meaningful 2608 02:48:41.040 --> 02:48:44.559 question would be whose worldview accounts for that those things 2609 02:48:44.680 --> 02:48:48.799 all together holistically correct? Yeah, and all of it together. 2610 02:48:49.040 --> 02:48:50.920 I think that's true. But if I remember in the 2611 02:48:51.360 --> 02:48:53.840 in the manupaper, he just makes it even more simpler. 2612 02:48:54.040 --> 02:48:58.680 Basic reply, which is like he uses the kantient argument 2613 02:48:58.760 --> 02:49:01.079 that Okay, so let's say for the sake of argument 2614 02:49:01.120 --> 02:49:05.719 that it does it. It is seemingly absurd to deny 2615 02:49:05.840 --> 02:49:08.879 the law of identity, and so therefore I need the 2616 02:49:08.959 --> 02:49:12.239 law of identity, and so let's grant that. But that 2617 02:49:12.360 --> 02:49:14.479 doesn't tell me that the law of identity, which I 2618 02:49:14.520 --> 02:49:17.360 think is going on in my mental schema, actually applies 2619 02:49:17.399 --> 02:49:20.520 to anything in the world. So in other words, what 2620 02:49:20.559 --> 02:49:22.600 about the external world and all that. You haven't solved 2621 02:49:22.639 --> 02:49:26.399 that stuff yet. And so just on that basis alone, 2622 02:49:26.479 --> 02:49:29.719 it shows that it can't be self evident, and uh, 2623 02:49:30.159 --> 02:49:32.440 retortion is not enough for justification because then he goes 2624 02:49:32.479 --> 02:49:37.760 on to say, well, maybe maybe the laws of logic 2625 02:49:38.000 --> 02:49:44.079 are conceptual schemes that we all think work and we 2626 02:49:44.319 --> 02:49:46.360 think they apply to the world, but they don't in fact. 2627 02:49:46.879 --> 02:49:50.319 Yeah, yeah, you're just thinking the is pragmatic enough that 2628 02:49:50.440 --> 02:49:52.959 we just do Yeah, then it's then it's pragmatism. It's like, oh, 2629 02:49:53.079 --> 02:49:57.120 we do exactly, because yeah, so we can do stuff 2630 02:49:57.200 --> 02:49:59.040 right Like that's no, it's like, yeah. 2631 02:49:58.879 --> 02:50:01.879 It's a pragmatic and that's not a number destigation and 2632 02:50:02.200 --> 02:50:05.959 by that, by that logic, anything that seems to work, 2633 02:50:06.040 --> 02:50:08.000 would therefore be justified right now? 2634 02:50:08.000 --> 02:50:10.319 Okay, so let me ask, and again you don't need 2635 02:50:10.399 --> 02:50:12.680 to go into super detail, but maybe if there was 2636 02:50:12.719 --> 02:50:15.399 a key distinction here, what if an atheist said, oh, actually, 2637 02:50:15.440 --> 02:50:17.520 what Jay, just he made a lot of sense right 2638 02:50:17.520 --> 02:50:20.399 there with these individual things that you can argue the 2639 02:50:21.479 --> 02:50:25.799 absurdity of the conclusion. You know, what was it called? Sorry, 2640 02:50:25.840 --> 02:50:29.399 the absurdity of the contrary, like to deny these things? 2641 02:50:30.000 --> 02:50:32.559 If you said, if they agreed with you and said, okay, 2642 02:50:32.879 --> 02:50:38.200 so if arguing something by necessity doesn't really fully justify it, 2643 02:50:38.360 --> 02:50:41.760 but you can accept the argument that to reject something 2644 02:50:41.959 --> 02:50:44.559 and use it is silly, so you shouldn't do that. 2645 02:50:45.399 --> 02:50:47.559 What if they put that to you and they say, well, Jay, 2646 02:50:48.040 --> 02:50:51.399 you know, if the argument for God from the transcendental 2647 02:50:51.520 --> 02:50:56.799 argument is of necessity, what's the classification difference between this 2648 02:50:57.479 --> 02:51:01.639 unique item called using logic and rejecting logic uses logic? 2649 02:51:02.079 --> 02:51:05.479 What's the difference? Now if they're going to say, well, shit, dude, 2650 02:51:05.520 --> 02:51:08.600 you're saying argument for necessity right now that you just said, 2651 02:51:08.639 --> 02:51:10.879 that's not true just because it's necessitated. 2652 02:51:11.239 --> 02:51:13.120 Yeah, That's why I always argue that you can't just 2653 02:51:13.239 --> 02:51:15.959 do the negative critique. When you do tag, you also 2654 02:51:16.000 --> 02:51:19.040 have to present the positive case of a Christian worldview. 2655 02:51:19.600 --> 02:51:23.799 So the first critique is kantient, and if we were kantients, 2656 02:51:23.920 --> 02:51:26.239 we would have to admit, like the Barry Stroud paper 2657 02:51:26.319 --> 02:51:29.680 says that there's a problem in CONT's arguments that don't 2658 02:51:29.920 --> 02:51:33.079 necessarily prove what he wants to argue for. So remember 2659 02:51:33.120 --> 02:51:36.600 in the first case of why say the law of identity? 2660 02:51:36.799 --> 02:51:40.159 The reason that doesn't get you to justification is because 2661 02:51:40.360 --> 02:51:43.639 I can just simply counter with cont critique and say, well, 2662 02:51:43.760 --> 02:51:47.440 just because it seems to me that it's necessary mentally 2663 02:51:47.559 --> 02:51:50.719 and psychologically to understand the world, does not tell me 2664 02:51:50.799 --> 02:51:52.680 that that's a real metaphysical principle in the world. 2665 02:51:52.959 --> 02:51:53.399 I got you. 2666 02:51:53.600 --> 02:51:56.799 Maybe it is, but how does just it seeming and 2667 02:51:56.959 --> 02:52:01.719 my coherence in my mind necessarily that the whole world 2668 02:52:01.879 --> 02:52:05.040 externally to me is operating that way. Uh, that's just 2669 02:52:05.319 --> 02:52:07.239 that's a sufficient enough objection to show that you need 2670 02:52:07.280 --> 02:52:11.239 more for justification. So that's different than than arguing that 2671 02:52:11.639 --> 02:52:14.799 the Christian worldview as a whole, which includes all of 2672 02:52:14.879 --> 02:52:17.280 these things, is the solution to. 2673 02:52:17.399 --> 02:52:20.440 The that makes sense that Yeah, analogy would be I 2674 02:52:20.559 --> 02:52:25.639 have a Swiss army knife of epistemology, ontology, metaphysics, morality 2675 02:52:25.719 --> 02:52:29.520 or whatever, and I have it because it's useful. Right, 2676 02:52:29.799 --> 02:52:32.159 that's a normal approach, you just ad hoc take it. 2677 02:52:32.399 --> 02:52:35.159 But a Christian worldview is saying, not only is another 2678 02:52:35.520 --> 02:52:37.799 any other of youew can't tell it, can't justify the 2679 02:52:37.840 --> 02:52:40.319 Swiss army knife. We're gonna tell you how it is. 2680 02:52:40.399 --> 02:52:43.239 You have the Swiss army knife altogether that you're using, 2681 02:52:43.799 --> 02:52:46.520 not an argument that you you have it because you're 2682 02:52:46.600 --> 02:52:49.159 using it. That's not a real position, right. That's like 2683 02:52:49.479 --> 02:52:51.440 like like Matt del Hundy, will we use logic because 2684 02:52:51.479 --> 02:52:54.120 we have it? It's like, well, no, that's you're just 2685 02:52:54.239 --> 02:52:56.879 taking the tool that you have. We're asking for. And 2686 02:52:56.959 --> 02:52:59.639 this is the thing you always sigh about, which is 2687 02:52:59.680 --> 02:53:06.159 people will constantly conflate an assertion with a justification. That 2688 02:53:06.719 --> 02:53:09.440 asserting something that sounds right, you might even agree with 2689 02:53:09.520 --> 02:53:12.639 the assertion, it's not the same as a justification, right. 2690 02:53:12.840 --> 02:53:15.399 And this is even stronger a level beyond that, because 2691 02:53:15.440 --> 02:53:18.040 this is actually saying not so much against the atheists, 2692 02:53:18.159 --> 02:53:21.760 but against a foundationalist who would say, like Tim Gordon 2693 02:53:21.799 --> 02:53:25.159 would say, well, look, law of identity equals a I 2694 02:53:25.239 --> 02:53:29.319 mean through retortion or through a reductio. If you deny it, 2695 02:53:30.000 --> 02:53:32.959 you can't have knowledge at all. That's true, But that 2696 02:53:33.159 --> 02:53:36.600 doesn't tell me that the principle itself is true. Because 2697 02:53:37.399 --> 02:53:40.000 Father Deacon has a paper where he argues along these lines, 2698 02:53:40.040 --> 02:53:42.879 and he says, well, take the case of a schizophrenic. 2699 02:53:43.559 --> 02:53:45.840 In the case of a schizophrenic's mind, it might be 2700 02:53:47.120 --> 02:53:51.399 to him it might seem like all this craziness makes sense, right, 2701 02:53:51.600 --> 02:53:53.079 like all the voices in his head and all the 2702 02:53:53.239 --> 02:53:56.200 weird stuff. For him, it's this coherent worldview that the 2703 02:53:56.319 --> 02:54:00.239 government is persecuting him, right, and so everything makes sense right, 2704 02:54:00.600 --> 02:54:04.239 But it's not true in the external world. So the 2705 02:54:04.280 --> 02:54:07.719 schizophrenic is an example of why the and we're not 2706 02:54:07.799 --> 02:54:10.479 saying schizophrenic is true. It's just a counter example that 2707 02:54:10.600 --> 02:54:15.200 shows that seeming coherence in a mental schema is not enough. 2708 02:54:15.440 --> 02:54:16.600 You need the entire world. 2709 02:54:17.559 --> 02:54:19.399 What do you say to this one? So ironic because 2710 02:54:19.399 --> 02:54:21.200 the first Christians would have drug you both into the 2711 02:54:21.239 --> 02:54:23.760 streets for being philosophers. Well, they didn't deny philosophy. They 2712 02:54:23.840 --> 02:54:26.719 denied vain philosophy and not all philosophy. I mean, you 2713 02:54:26.719 --> 02:54:29.000 couldn't actually I mean it's just a silly position. 2714 02:54:29.799 --> 02:54:32.120 Saint Justin Martyr is called Justin the philosopher. 2715 02:54:32.600 --> 02:54:35.719 Yeah, I mean philosophy. You can't really engage with any 2716 02:54:35.760 --> 02:54:39.000 of the truth of the matter. You just think philosophy 2717 02:54:39.079 --> 02:54:40.079 is a gross word. 2718 02:54:40.360 --> 02:54:40.479 Right. 2719 02:54:40.600 --> 02:54:43.239 This is a view that probably a Protestant, probably someone 2720 02:54:43.280 --> 02:54:45.959 who's saying, oh, I read philosophy in the Bible and 2721 02:54:46.000 --> 02:54:48.879 it says warning against it. Therefore, all philosophy. 2722 02:54:48.399 --> 02:54:51.239 And the most Ecclesiastes is a book of philosophy. Yeah. 2723 02:54:51.520 --> 02:54:55.239 Yeah, by the way, that did during the all of 2724 02:54:55.399 --> 02:54:59.680 the Seven Councils and before did they was philosophy not 2725 02:55:00.000 --> 02:55:03.760 necessary to debate and fight off heresies using consistency and 2726 02:55:03.879 --> 02:55:07.479 logic and why things need to be accounted for using 2727 02:55:07.879 --> 02:55:12.760 our God given faculties called the logic, heart, news, mind, rationality. 2728 02:55:12.799 --> 02:55:14.920 Of course, I mean this is this is silly. 2729 02:55:15.879 --> 02:55:18.680 Yeah, it's vain philosophy, that'sful. 2730 02:55:18.520 --> 02:55:20.280 Yeah, vein, Yeah, vain philosophy. 2731 02:55:20.879 --> 02:55:22.920 My logic tutor in first year used to say that 2732 02:55:23.840 --> 02:55:25.559 a good way to get your head around this intuitively 2733 02:55:25.680 --> 02:55:27.760 is well, if this is true, then anything can be true. 2734 02:55:27.879 --> 02:55:30.360 Yes, yeah, that's a great way of putting it. I'm 2735 02:55:30.360 --> 02:55:32.440 go've been planning on doing a video about about this 2736 02:55:32.559 --> 02:55:37.520 concept you know from X Also yes, yeah, yeah, I'm. 2737 02:55:37.360 --> 02:55:40.559 Gonna actually skipto consciousness here not being a materialist. 2738 02:55:40.799 --> 02:55:42.399 Yes, I mean this is this is almost like that. 2739 02:55:42.520 --> 02:55:44.079 We've the kind of runs like that would apply to 2740 02:55:44.159 --> 02:55:45.639 the logic one, indeed loads of ones. 2741 02:55:46.040 --> 02:55:49.879 You can believe that consciousness is this strange immaterial you 2742 02:55:49.920 --> 02:55:50.399 could believe in. 2743 02:55:50.360 --> 02:55:51.280 The of the soul. 2744 02:55:51.399 --> 02:55:53.559 Okay, I wanted to you weren't here for this. Jay 2745 02:55:53.799 --> 02:55:56.159 he was in the early part of this video. He 2746 02:55:56.280 --> 02:55:59.200 was saying that, you know, there are atheists who are 2747 02:55:59.319 --> 02:56:05.120 materialists or a materialists who are atheists, but there are 2748 02:56:05.200 --> 02:56:08.799 people who are atheists who reject materialism. I'm saying, Okay, fine, 2749 02:56:09.159 --> 02:56:12.559 people can try to hold the view I've come to 2750 02:56:12.600 --> 02:56:15.239 the conclusion that I'm not. They can claim that, but 2751 02:56:15.360 --> 02:56:19.000 I'm not certain how an atheist is not going to 2752 02:56:19.079 --> 02:56:22.079 be whittled down into some sort of materialism or physicalism. 2753 02:56:22.239 --> 02:56:25.200 Just like New Agers, right, they we grant that they 2754 02:56:25.319 --> 02:56:27.719 use all of these metaphysical terms like spirit in mind 2755 02:56:27.799 --> 02:56:29.639 and all these things, but when you press them on them, 2756 02:56:30.319 --> 02:56:32.799 a New Age or a spiritual not religious person, they 2757 02:56:33.319 --> 02:56:36.159 you push them and they end up folding down into 2758 02:56:36.200 --> 02:56:39.520 like energy and frequencies and all of these things. Now, 2759 02:56:39.799 --> 02:56:43.479 is it possible because Alex has taken the position, well, 2760 02:56:43.920 --> 02:56:48.159 all materialists are atheists, but not all atheists are materialists? 2761 02:56:48.600 --> 02:56:51.200 Now is that? Is that just kind of like you go, okay, yeah, 2762 02:56:51.399 --> 02:56:51.799 they can. 2763 02:56:51.719 --> 02:56:55.360 Hold There are in the minority, you know, atheists, philosophers 2764 02:56:55.360 --> 02:56:57.920 and academics who are not strict materialists. 2765 02:56:57.959 --> 02:57:00.680 There are some, But are they consistent as opposed to 2766 02:57:00.760 --> 02:57:03.520 the position? Okay, That's what I'm saying, is like if 2767 02:57:03.559 --> 02:57:06.719 I yeah, that's that's a question, is like are they 2768 02:57:06.920 --> 02:57:09.719 really when pressed? I think the answers no, do they 2769 02:57:09.799 --> 02:57:10.399 hold the position? 2770 02:57:10.559 --> 02:57:14.159 Fine? Like you could be you could be a you 2771 02:57:14.239 --> 02:57:17.440 could be a platonist atheist, and you could be a 2772 02:57:17.680 --> 02:57:23.280 transcendental idealist atheist, and like you could you could conceivably, 2773 02:57:23.319 --> 02:57:26.079 for example, think that all of reality is pure idea 2774 02:57:26.280 --> 02:57:29.159 like Barkley did, and just not believe in a deity. 2775 02:57:29.559 --> 02:57:34.200 I suppose, But I mean that's like very rare positions, 2776 02:57:34.280 --> 02:57:37.959 like maybe one in a thousand professors as that position. 2777 02:57:38.799 --> 02:57:41.760 Yeah, That's why I ask, like, well, someone could post 2778 02:57:41.840 --> 02:57:44.079 the position up and if we start kicking at it, 2779 02:57:44.680 --> 02:57:46.479 it seems like they would have no place to go 2780 02:57:46.680 --> 02:57:51.120 then to reduce things to empirical things and matter and physicalism. 2781 02:57:51.520 --> 02:57:54.479 If they're questioned, unless you they just go listen. I 2782 02:57:54.680 --> 02:57:58.479 just take this weird, unjustified platonic view that there's things 2783 02:57:58.520 --> 02:58:01.040 out there that aren't identical to matter and somehow we 2784 02:58:01.079 --> 02:58:01.600 have access. 2785 02:58:01.799 --> 02:58:05.639 They could actually they could just be barkley An idealists 2786 02:58:06.280 --> 02:58:08.799 or Platonist idealists, and they could just simply deny matter. 2787 02:58:09.079 --> 02:58:11.680 They could just say what you think is matter is 2788 02:58:11.840 --> 02:58:16.200 just ideas and there is no God, there's just ideas. 2789 02:58:16.799 --> 02:58:21.440 So what exactly ideas are would just be, you know, 2790 02:58:21.840 --> 02:58:28.159 something immaterial invariants or something like that. But again that's 2791 02:58:28.200 --> 02:58:31.319 a very few people. I mean, there are philosophers who. 2792 02:58:30.920 --> 02:58:33.840 Would think yeah, but then they have a they're bracypically, 2793 02:58:33.959 --> 02:58:37.360 they're basically halfway into solipsism. And at that point because 2794 02:58:37.399 --> 02:58:40.280 then you just ask, well, whose ideas? Whose ideas are 2795 02:58:40.280 --> 02:58:43.639 the proper assessment of the external world, And then like 2796 02:58:44.079 --> 02:58:46.520 you know, it's this battle of like one person set 2797 02:58:46.559 --> 02:58:50.280 of ideas versus another person. But then that person has 2798 02:58:50.319 --> 02:58:52.680 to be beyond an idea, Like if the objects in 2799 02:58:52.719 --> 02:58:54.639 the world there are just ideas, then the people in 2800 02:58:54.680 --> 02:58:57.120 the world are just ideas. So then you know, I 2801 02:58:57.159 --> 02:58:59.559 don't see how they can escape a solipsistic view. 2802 02:59:00.120 --> 02:59:02.600 But well, I mean they might think that there's many, 2803 02:59:04.479 --> 02:59:08.159 many ideas in many minds, so all that exists is mind. 2804 02:59:08.959 --> 02:59:13.319 Matter is illusory. There's many minds and many ideas, and 2805 02:59:13.399 --> 02:59:18.079 then what we call matter is just the what we 2806 02:59:18.280 --> 02:59:22.959 think is going on with molecules, when really it's all 2807 02:59:23.239 --> 02:59:26.920 just ideas as they're presented to us. Yeah, so there's 2808 02:59:26.920 --> 02:59:28.840 the reason, the reason why. There's actually a reason why 2809 02:59:28.879 --> 02:59:30.399 they might think this though, and this has to do 2810 02:59:30.520 --> 02:59:33.360 with the there's an Enlightenment dispute. I don't want to 2811 02:59:33.360 --> 02:59:34.680 get too far a field, you probably don't want to 2812 02:59:34.680 --> 02:59:36.840 talk about it, but it has to do with what's 2813 02:59:36.840 --> 02:59:39.559 called direct and indirect realism. And so like John Locke 2814 02:59:39.559 --> 02:59:41.120 and people like that, at the time of the Enlightenment, 2815 02:59:41.600 --> 02:59:47.680 they were debating whether or not I'm actually sensing solidity 2816 02:59:48.440 --> 02:59:51.520 when I touch a thing, or whether solidity is something 2817 02:59:51.559 --> 02:59:54.840 that's presented in my mind. And they had a really 2818 02:59:54.879 --> 02:59:58.000 hard time if you're if you're an empiricist, they had 2819 02:59:58.040 --> 03:00:01.040 a hard time with this because people like David Hume, well, 2820 03:00:01.479 --> 03:00:05.319 obviously there's an external world and these are just sensations 2821 03:00:05.319 --> 03:00:10.040 imprinted upon my camcorder mind. But other enlightenment flusters said, well, 2822 03:00:10.120 --> 03:00:13.920 now wait a minute, that's an unjustified assumption. Maybe the 2823 03:00:14.079 --> 03:00:18.280 sensations are in the mind and everything that's happening is 2824 03:00:18.399 --> 03:00:20.879 in the mind. And in other words, they can just 2825 03:00:21.000 --> 03:00:23.840 deny the external world assumption and say that there is 2826 03:00:23.879 --> 03:00:26.680 no external world. There's just a commonly experienced mind world. 2827 03:00:27.120 --> 03:00:30.079 Right right right, And that leads to would you say 2828 03:00:30.120 --> 03:00:31.040 that leads I think. 2829 03:00:31.319 --> 03:00:35.000 If I mean, I think you could go towards syllipsism, yeah. 2830 03:00:36.319 --> 03:00:38.719 Or pant psychic. I don't understand how you could be 2831 03:00:38.719 --> 03:00:42.399 a pan psychic. And then also it makes some sort 2832 03:00:42.399 --> 03:00:43.639 of distinctions between I. 2833 03:00:43.639 --> 03:00:45.799 Think the problem that position is that they have to 2834 03:00:46.000 --> 03:00:48.959 end up like having a bunch of metaphysical assumptions that 2835 03:00:49.040 --> 03:00:53.120 are very contrary to kind of common sense reality. So 2836 03:00:53.479 --> 03:00:55.879 it's sort of like everything that you think is going 2837 03:00:55.959 --> 03:00:58.399 on isn't going on. And then it's like, okay, well, 2838 03:00:58.399 --> 03:01:01.440 if that's the case, then why should I assume this 2839 03:01:01.760 --> 03:01:04.760 metaphysical assumption of there being mini minds and there's like 2840 03:01:04.799 --> 03:01:06.600 a giant mind. And it's just sort of a lot 2841 03:01:06.639 --> 03:01:07.040 of leaps. 2842 03:01:07.639 --> 03:01:09.840 Yeah. Well, also that what you said before, if there 2843 03:01:09.879 --> 03:01:12.680 are these people that you said during that phase of 2844 03:01:12.719 --> 03:01:16.079 philosophy were who are saying, well, there's just ideas out there, 2845 03:01:16.559 --> 03:01:20.920 and then the sense input. If the sense input had 2846 03:01:21.000 --> 03:01:24.520 nothing to do with being dependent on an actual object, 2847 03:01:24.559 --> 03:01:27.559 then you wouldn't need the external world to perceive what 2848 03:01:27.680 --> 03:01:29.440 we call the external world. There would just be like 2849 03:01:29.520 --> 03:01:33.040 this sense input coming from wherever. It didn't need to 2850 03:01:33.079 --> 03:01:35.799 be an object, so that what is sense input? What 2851 03:01:35.959 --> 03:01:38.479 is input if it's not separate from the thing that's 2852 03:01:38.520 --> 03:01:39.959 doing the interpretation. 2853 03:01:39.559 --> 03:01:42.680 Well would just say, for example, that what you're sensing 2854 03:01:42.799 --> 03:01:45.440 is just another idea. So he's not saying it's all. 2855 03:01:46.239 --> 03:01:48.920 He's saying that there are sensory inputs, but the sensory 2856 03:01:48.959 --> 03:01:51.360 inputs are ideas from other ideas. 2857 03:01:52.319 --> 03:01:54.680 So this is the basis you know for Is this 2858 03:01:54.799 --> 03:01:58.000 the basis for the similarcrum like which became the famous 2859 03:01:58.040 --> 03:02:02.319 movie Do you think this view or is it before that? 2860 03:02:03.639 --> 03:02:06.959 Like it seems like if that's that's that was the 2861 03:02:07.079 --> 03:02:12.399 first like basement people being like bro like like what 2862 03:02:12.559 --> 03:02:13.639 if we're just. 2863 03:02:14.799 --> 03:02:19.079 That's probably more so like from Plato, And the difference 2864 03:02:19.159 --> 03:02:24.399 is that Barkley is an empiricist, and so Plato's Plato's 2865 03:02:24.440 --> 03:02:26.280 not a big I mean, Plato believes that knowledge comes 2866 03:02:26.319 --> 03:02:28.319 from since theive, but it's like the lowest level of knowledge. 2867 03:02:28.959 --> 03:02:32.239 So they have a huge difference on where we get knowledge. 2868 03:02:33.120 --> 03:02:35.719 But Barkley is a I mean, he's just as much 2869 03:02:35.760 --> 03:02:39.360 an empiricist as well as Locke or David Hume. The 2870 03:02:39.440 --> 03:02:42.120 only difference is that he's saying, David him, you're inconsistent 2871 03:02:42.280 --> 03:02:45.520 by assuming an external world. You have no justification for that. 2872 03:02:46.280 --> 03:02:48.600 I'm going to be the most consistent empiricist and say 2873 03:02:48.680 --> 03:02:51.440 that all reality is ideas because didn't we just see 2874 03:02:51.479 --> 03:02:54.799 in these Enlightenment disputes that you can't really justify the 2875 03:02:55.120 --> 03:02:57.200 difference between the sensation and the object. 2876 03:02:58.040 --> 03:03:01.280 Wait, so you're saying, even no, famously human is the 2877 03:03:01.360 --> 03:03:04.680 most consistent. There was another guy who was even more consistent. 2878 03:03:04.920 --> 03:03:07.840 Well, just on that one point of world. So he's 2879 03:03:07.879 --> 03:03:10.719 basically saying and by the way, Barkley, because he was 2880 03:03:10.719 --> 03:03:14.120 an Anglican clergyman or Irish Anglican clergyman, he wanted to 2881 03:03:14.239 --> 03:03:20.120 defend theism against Hume and the skepticism, and he thought 2882 03:03:20.200 --> 03:03:22.559 a way to do this would be to say well, 2883 03:03:22.600 --> 03:03:25.799 maybe all knowledge does come from sense data, but the 2884 03:03:25.920 --> 03:03:30.399 mistake is to think that it's corpuscles or corpuscularianism. From 2885 03:03:30.520 --> 03:03:33.040 what they cart talked about, that everything is just little 2886 03:03:33.120 --> 03:03:36.719 atoms bouncing around, right, he says, rather than thinking of 2887 03:03:36.799 --> 03:03:39.680 it as a bunch of material atoms, all your ever 2888 03:03:40.399 --> 03:03:44.520 sensing is literally ideas, because all that exists as ideas. 2889 03:03:46.520 --> 03:03:51.399 Interesting. But then again, that would mean that to do induction, 2890 03:03:52.079 --> 03:03:55.280 you're actually interacting with a set of particular ideas that 2891 03:03:55.360 --> 03:03:58.319 aren't identical to the previous ones in every moment, right, 2892 03:03:58.360 --> 03:03:58.920 but every. 2893 03:03:58.799 --> 03:04:01.959 Moment would mark as theists would say. Yeah, but in 2894 03:04:02.079 --> 03:04:04.120 my case, I don't have a problem with there being 2895 03:04:04.200 --> 03:04:09.120 universals and particulars. There's one ultimate idea, Who's God? That's 2896 03:04:09.159 --> 03:04:09.840 the big idea? 2897 03:04:11.040 --> 03:04:13.840 Yeah, I gotcha. Do you ever get something as silly 2898 03:04:13.879 --> 03:04:16.559 as this in your chat? The transcendental argument for evolution, 2899 03:04:16.920 --> 03:04:19.360 that's funny is how you can have be a non 2900 03:04:19.440 --> 03:04:23.760 materialist atheist. I'm sorry, but evolution is a materialist paradigm, right, 2901 03:04:23.879 --> 03:04:27.120 So what is this non materialism you get from evolution? 2902 03:04:27.239 --> 03:04:30.159 By the way, evolution even can't even tell you how 2903 03:04:30.280 --> 03:04:33.719 information being immaterial and not identical to matter exists, and 2904 03:04:33.799 --> 03:04:42.879 yet evolution requires the transfer of evolution. Becky, thank you, Becky. 2905 03:04:43.959 --> 03:04:45.680 H do you want to respond to that goofiness? 2906 03:04:45.840 --> 03:04:49.680 Well again, like, it's really misunderstanding the function of the 2907 03:04:49.719 --> 03:04:52.879 transcendental argument. It's not an argument to give you an 2908 03:04:52.920 --> 03:04:57.479 indirect basis for anything. It's in our case, it's an 2909 03:04:57.840 --> 03:05:00.159 it's an indirect argument to give you a base for 2910 03:05:00.200 --> 03:05:03.079 the entire Christian worldview. So it wouldn't make sense to 2911 03:05:03.159 --> 03:05:08.319 say that it proves an immaterial process that somehow gives 2912 03:05:08.440 --> 03:05:11.879 rise to a material process, as gives rise to masteriality. 2913 03:05:12.280 --> 03:05:15.559 There's no way that an abstract transnial argument could actually 2914 03:05:15.799 --> 03:05:19.520 justify that. It would just be assuming what's supposed to 2915 03:05:19.559 --> 03:05:22.440 be proven by that. That's why it's a comparison of worldviews. 2916 03:05:22.479 --> 03:05:28.760 It's not like this transcendental category proves that matter gives 2917 03:05:28.879 --> 03:05:31.239 rise to immateriality. Yeah. 2918 03:05:31.799 --> 03:05:35.319 By the way, these transitental things would be mind dependent 2919 03:05:35.760 --> 03:05:40.200 and can't be identical to a physical process called evolution anyway. Right, 2920 03:05:40.239 --> 03:05:45.239 So it's like to even post diction, uh summarize evolution, 2921 03:05:45.520 --> 03:05:47.399 you're appealing to things that are not found in the 2922 03:05:47.479 --> 03:05:48.360 process of evolution. 2923 03:05:48.680 --> 03:05:52.319 So I mean and Also that sounds like emergentism, which 2924 03:05:53.200 --> 03:05:57.600 it's an argument against materialism. So right, matter gives rise 2925 03:05:57.719 --> 03:06:02.920 to consciousness and immortation immateriality, that would be a refutation 2926 03:06:03.040 --> 03:06:06.920 of materialism, and that would mean that evolution ultimately isn't true. Right. 2927 03:06:07.000 --> 03:06:09.639 Most people don't realize that. I talk to Father Deacon 2928 03:06:09.680 --> 03:06:12.680 Anonius about that. How most people don't when they say 2929 03:06:12.719 --> 03:06:15.719 emergent property, oh, the mind's emerging, they really think that 2930 03:06:15.840 --> 03:06:19.079 the material reality can produce and percolate something that's not 2931 03:06:19.159 --> 03:06:22.079 identical to the machine that's doing it, you know, like 2932 03:06:22.639 --> 03:06:25.360 you know, steam over the pot of water or something. 2933 03:06:25.399 --> 03:06:28.920 And and like you just said, it's most people don't 2934 03:06:29.319 --> 03:06:32.719 who use emergent property as a term. They don't realize 2935 03:06:32.760 --> 03:06:37.719 that emergentism the school of thinking, refutes the thing they're 2936 03:06:37.719 --> 03:06:39.760 trying to argue using emergent properties. 2937 03:06:40.319 --> 03:06:41.959 And by the way, if they're allowed to make that 2938 03:06:42.120 --> 03:06:45.079 leap as a Dila hunty person is misusing that argument, 2939 03:06:45.559 --> 03:06:48.239 then why then what's what's wrong with me saying? Okay, 2940 03:06:48.280 --> 03:06:50.600 then there's immaterial things like angel souls and god. 2941 03:06:50.799 --> 03:06:53.879 Sure, sure, yeah, that's what That's one of my favorite 2942 03:06:54.280 --> 03:06:57.520 angles is that I'll just take an ordinary atheist who 2943 03:06:57.559 --> 03:07:00.280 says God doesn't exist, I have no reason to believing 2944 03:07:00.319 --> 03:07:04.040 God because X Y Z empiricism evidential ism missing. And 2945 03:07:04.120 --> 03:07:06.520 I go, oh, that's interesting. I'll just list the categories 2946 03:07:06.559 --> 03:07:09.559 of things that they assume without evidence. This doesn't prove 2947 03:07:09.639 --> 03:07:12.120 that all claims of things that are immaterial exists. It 2948 03:07:12.239 --> 03:07:16.399 just shows that their standard they use to negate God's 2949 03:07:16.479 --> 03:07:20.840 existence are a bunch of things. The very standard they're 2950 03:07:20.920 --> 03:07:25.200 using is an immaterial standard that's not verified through empirical data. 2951 03:07:25.280 --> 03:07:28.840 It's like exactly, well, back to the great paper the 2952 03:07:29.120 --> 03:07:31.639 Two Dogmas of Empiricism by Kwying. He ends the paper 2953 03:07:31.680 --> 03:07:38.000 by saying that anytime somebody in the empiricist atheist tradition 2954 03:07:38.360 --> 03:07:42.719 tries to predicate, predication itself is the equivalent of the 2955 03:07:42.719 --> 03:07:45.600 ancient Greek god's meaning is the equivalent of the ancient 2956 03:07:45.600 --> 03:07:47.159 Greek gods and the vice spaghetti monster. 2957 03:07:48.000 --> 03:07:53.440 Wow, so this stuff, you would you say, the criticisms 2958 03:07:53.479 --> 03:07:55.799 of all this stuff, and the fact that this stuff 2959 03:07:55.799 --> 03:08:01.040 percolates back up into culture is the result of the 2960 03:08:01.239 --> 03:08:05.000 Enlightenment itself, because they just got lacks on their rigor. 2961 03:08:05.200 --> 03:08:07.239 They just granted a bunch of things and people ran 2962 03:08:07.520 --> 03:08:09.719 rampant because didn't the Enlightenment correct me if I'm wrong, 2963 03:08:09.840 --> 03:08:12.879 just say, well, let's take a self evident axiomatic approach 2964 03:08:12.920 --> 03:08:16.399 to all these fundamental things, and we don't have to 2965 03:08:16.600 --> 03:08:19.040 justify the fundamental things. We just kind of accept them. 2966 03:08:19.120 --> 03:08:21.799 And now if you just accept those things, why would 2967 03:08:21.840 --> 03:08:24.639 we be surprised at a resurgence of all this insane 2968 03:08:24.719 --> 03:08:27.079 stuff you and I critique and laugh at on you know, 2969 03:08:27.200 --> 03:08:29.600 popping out of TikTok and all these Well. 2970 03:08:29.520 --> 03:08:34.000 Yeah, exactly, you're right. Enlightenment is critique, right. It's basically saying, 2971 03:08:34.120 --> 03:08:36.639 let's take the laws of logic, the self evident actions 2972 03:08:36.639 --> 03:08:39.639 and principles, and let's critique the metaphysics of Christianity, the 2973 03:08:39.639 --> 03:08:42.079 ancient world in the Middle Ages. And what we see 2974 03:08:42.120 --> 03:08:44.920 when we do that is we basically hack off everything metaphysical. 2975 03:08:45.639 --> 03:08:48.559 But then the next generation says, wait a minute, if 2976 03:08:48.559 --> 03:08:50.719 we're going to be consistent and we're going to hack 2977 03:08:50.799 --> 03:08:53.159 off the metaphysics and the things that we can't justify, 2978 03:08:53.479 --> 03:08:55.959 we're gonna start hacking off and getting rid of the 2979 03:08:56.040 --> 03:08:59.200 things that the enlightens our mind, our mind, any everything 2980 03:08:59.360 --> 03:09:02.799 Enlightenment is going to get hacked away too. Laws of logic, 2981 03:09:02.920 --> 03:09:08.280 external world identity, over time to self the mind, meaning yeah, 2982 03:09:09.040 --> 03:09:11.520 so as they hack away, you get the end result 2983 03:09:11.639 --> 03:09:17.079 of basically Kwine saying, nobody in the empiricist, materialist atheist 2984 03:09:17.120 --> 03:09:19.639 tradition in five hundred years has given a sufficient answer 2985 03:09:19.680 --> 03:09:22.719 to David Hume. And basically all that's happened is that 2986 03:09:22.760 --> 03:09:27.000 everything has become psychology, So epistemology becomes psychologized that sense, 2987 03:09:27.040 --> 03:09:30.360 we're still we're still there, he says, We're never gonna 2988 03:09:30.360 --> 03:09:31.040 get out of this box. 2989 03:09:31.760 --> 03:09:35.280 Yeah, yeah, And they're and they're taking their approach altogether 2990 03:09:35.440 --> 03:09:40.000 is backwards, like using instead of asking what's the ultimate 2991 03:09:40.120 --> 03:09:43.079 start point for all of this being possible? They go, well, 2992 03:09:43.120 --> 03:09:45.959 what what endpoint can we get to using our faculties? 2993 03:09:46.040 --> 03:09:48.479 And it's like, well, no, the question is how did 2994 03:09:48.520 --> 03:09:50.559 you get your faculties to begin with? How is it 2995 03:09:50.680 --> 03:09:52.920 the case that you can even reason to a conclusion? 2996 03:09:53.319 --> 03:09:56.719 Not you know, the other way around. And hence I 2997 03:09:56.879 --> 03:10:00.840 believe that would be the basis for pursuing the tag 2998 03:10:00.959 --> 03:10:03.680 argument in general. Because you're asked, you're not granting them 2999 03:10:03.719 --> 03:10:05.440 all of the things that are required for them to 3000 03:10:06.120 --> 03:10:09.159 come to conclusions. You're asking a bigger question. I guess 3001 03:10:09.200 --> 03:10:12.040 you would call that a metallogical question, is well, no, 3002 03:10:12.200 --> 03:10:14.879 let's ask a bigger question that the Enlightenment people just 3003 03:10:15.079 --> 03:10:17.399 didn't want to deal with Or was it that they 3004 03:10:17.440 --> 03:10:19.959 didn't want to deal with it in your estimation, or 3005 03:10:21.719 --> 03:10:23.760 it's just just kind of culture. It just kind of 3006 03:10:23.840 --> 03:10:25.440 happened that way, Like, yeah. 3007 03:10:25.239 --> 03:10:28.079 I think men are limited by their times and we 3008 03:10:28.159 --> 03:10:30.680 can't expect, you know, people in the Middle Ages, we 3009 03:10:30.760 --> 03:10:34.200 can't expect them to necessarily ask the questions of the 3010 03:10:34.280 --> 03:10:37.079 eighteen hundreds because a lot of things have to happen, 3011 03:10:37.159 --> 03:10:40.799 a lot of questions of people kind of creatively saying, hey, 3012 03:10:40.840 --> 03:10:43.399 wait a minute, what about this, Like we've assumed this, 3013 03:10:43.639 --> 03:10:46.360 we haven't asked this because remember, I mean, there's those 3014 03:10:46.399 --> 03:10:51.719 type linguistic philosophy. For example, there's some linguistic philosophy in 3015 03:10:51.760 --> 03:10:54.840 the ancient world, people asking questions about signs and symbols. 3016 03:10:55.120 --> 03:10:56.639 There's a little bit in the Middle Ages, maybe a 3017 03:10:56.680 --> 03:11:02.040 little more, and it doesn't really get questioned until the 3018 03:11:02.159 --> 03:11:07.079 seventeen hundreds. So it's the first modern linguistic philosopher is 3019 03:11:07.399 --> 03:11:10.920 Jean Bautista Vico, and he's pretty late, like early seventeen hundreds, 3020 03:11:11.559 --> 03:11:16.079 so people hadn't even thought to question the propositions at length. 3021 03:11:16.280 --> 03:11:18.280 I mean again, some people had questioned these things, and 3022 03:11:18.360 --> 03:11:21.280 they raised issues in the Middle Ages, but to really 3023 03:11:21.399 --> 03:11:25.079 drill into even linguistic philosophy, it's pretty late. So we 3024 03:11:25.200 --> 03:11:29.920 can't assume that, you know, you know, we might think, well, 3025 03:11:29.920 --> 03:11:32.719 why didn't they just ask the questions we're asking. Well, 3026 03:11:33.639 --> 03:11:38.799 there's people. Humans operate a lot of times with assumptions, 3027 03:11:39.159 --> 03:11:41.680 and they don't oftentimes question their something. 3028 03:11:42.040 --> 03:11:44.479 Yeah. Well, someone recently asked me, hey, Jim Bob, you're 3029 03:11:44.479 --> 03:11:46.760 doing a lot of talk about evolution. You know, why 3030 03:11:46.879 --> 03:11:49.440 is it the case that people in this field haven't 3031 03:11:49.559 --> 03:11:52.360 brought up your contentions and the contentions of your your 3032 03:11:52.600 --> 03:11:54.920 you know, your associates and peers. And I'm like, well, 3033 03:11:55.479 --> 03:12:00.840 this assumption that if something's false, the presentation of how 3034 03:12:00.879 --> 03:12:03.280 it's false is going to be adequately accepted in the 3035 03:12:03.360 --> 03:12:06.719 time frame that the paradigms delivered, we're still very new, 3036 03:12:06.879 --> 03:12:09.079 by the way, in the infancy, right. 3037 03:12:09.319 --> 03:12:12.000 This is the point of Thomas Kuhne's Structures a Scientific 3038 03:12:12.040 --> 03:12:15.239 Revolution that that famous book one an a word, because 3039 03:12:15.280 --> 03:12:19.239 the whole thesis of the book is that new paradigms 3040 03:12:19.399 --> 03:12:22.200 are not accepted immediately at that time on the basis 3041 03:12:22.239 --> 03:12:26.559 of pure reasoning and demonstration and proof. In fact, when 3042 03:12:26.840 --> 03:12:30.159 challenges to paradigms are put forward, the tendency for human 3043 03:12:30.239 --> 03:12:33.639 nature is to cling even more intensely to the existing 3044 03:12:33.719 --> 03:12:35.719 paradigm before they concede to the new paradigm. 3045 03:12:36.280 --> 03:12:38.799 Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. And by the way, if we 3046 03:12:38.879 --> 03:12:41.159 get to a point where, you know, natural selection and 3047 03:12:41.239 --> 03:12:44.879 all the all the rest is adequately offset by something new, 3048 03:12:45.399 --> 03:12:48.000 the people who believed in all that dogmatically are just 3049 03:12:48.079 --> 03:12:50.600 going to move over to their their authority anyway and say, well, 3050 03:12:50.639 --> 03:12:52.920 it was our authority who debunked. 3051 03:12:52.520 --> 03:12:56.479 In exactly what. There's a pattern there between. I mean, 3052 03:12:56.479 --> 03:12:59.959 they're talking about two different topics, but Kwind's two dogmas 3053 03:13:00.120 --> 03:13:05.159 of empiricism, right, He's pointing out that empiricism was intended 3054 03:13:05.200 --> 03:13:09.440 to get rid of dogmas of metaphysics. And yet empiricists 3055 03:13:09.760 --> 03:13:12.680 in their extreme reach, like people like what does he say, 3056 03:13:12.760 --> 03:13:18.280 Popper Carnapp and others like, they've gotten to this point. Carnapp. 3057 03:13:18.319 --> 03:13:21.239 I think they in the strict positivists have gotten to 3058 03:13:21.280 --> 03:13:23.399 this point where they think that they don't have any dogmas, 3059 03:13:23.440 --> 03:13:25.840 but they still got two dogmas and then and then 3060 03:13:25.879 --> 03:13:29.600 it's the same point with Kun's book. People think that 3061 03:13:29.719 --> 03:13:32.280 in the realm of science they operate on pure facts 3062 03:13:32.360 --> 03:13:36.520 and art and logic and objectivity, but rather the opposite 3063 03:13:36.639 --> 03:13:38.399 is true, and they treat it like a religion. 3064 03:13:38.760 --> 03:13:41.680 Which is why, you know, even in my own chat, 3065 03:13:42.280 --> 03:13:45.719 the impulse is to have this negative aversion, you know, 3066 03:13:45.799 --> 03:13:49.319 to dogma, and we go, no, no, you can't escape dogma. 3067 03:13:49.399 --> 03:13:52.399 In general, the term it's just that you gotta you 3068 03:13:52.520 --> 03:13:57.479 gotta isolate, you know, when it's incoherent or limited or 3069 03:13:57.520 --> 03:14:00.760 something like. Because we wouldn't just say dogma icky. People 3070 03:14:00.840 --> 03:14:03.079 think that that's just what you should do. You just 3071 03:14:03.159 --> 03:14:07.440 go dogma, ikey yucky. Well, obviously in Christianity we don't 3072 03:14:07.520 --> 03:14:11.840 say dogma ikey yucky. But in their tradition and in 3073 03:14:11.959 --> 03:14:15.200 that world, they think they're purely skeptical. They really think 3074 03:14:15.280 --> 03:14:18.360 there's a purity to skepticism. But that is a dogma 3075 03:14:18.399 --> 03:14:19.959 in itself that has its own dogma. 3076 03:14:20.159 --> 03:14:22.280 So it's a total worldview. In fact, I mean the 3077 03:14:22.360 --> 03:14:28.399 famous skeptics and Skeptic magazine like Michael Schermer and those 3078 03:14:28.479 --> 03:14:34.159 characters like they notoriously never deviate from the establishment teaching 3079 03:14:34.440 --> 03:14:37.280 dogmas and positions on everything. So whether it's the Big 3080 03:14:37.360 --> 03:14:41.520 nine event or whether it's GMOs stabbis like they literally 3081 03:14:41.559 --> 03:14:43.879 go across the line for the Stadt, which is not 3082 03:14:44.040 --> 03:14:46.680 very skeptical to me if you're basically in line with 3083 03:14:46.760 --> 03:14:49.520 whatever the basically the State Department and the establishment says, 3084 03:14:49.719 --> 03:14:50.840 how is that establishism? 3085 03:14:51.000 --> 03:14:53.159 Yeah, it's not skeptical at all. But you know they 3086 03:14:53.200 --> 03:14:56.959 get their their touring badges. Yes, from that anyway, So 3087 03:14:57.879 --> 03:14:59.799 let's move along with this and see where if they 3088 03:14:59.840 --> 03:15:01.079 take make us anywhere. 3089 03:15:00.959 --> 03:15:03.079 All you can believe in all that kind of stuff 3090 03:15:03.079 --> 03:15:06.239 and just not believe in like an agential god overseeing 3091 03:15:06.239 --> 03:15:07.479 it all, it would be quite weird. 3092 03:15:07.719 --> 03:15:08.040 Agent. 3093 03:15:08.200 --> 03:15:10.639 It will still be like weirder that there wasn't some creative. 3094 03:15:11.920 --> 03:15:13.239 Wrong? 3095 03:15:13.639 --> 03:15:17.360 Is that something not tangential like an agent? 3096 03:15:17.719 --> 03:15:24.719 Like, but he said agent, make it, I'll make it populous. 3097 03:15:24.799 --> 03:15:28.399 I've persuasion. It's worth noting that. But I think really 3098 03:15:28.479 --> 03:15:31.440 the question here, put in the context of atheists not 3099 03:15:31.440 --> 03:15:35.600 being able to answer it is like conscious a strange 3100 03:15:35.639 --> 03:15:39.360 thing to expect, reputed. 3101 03:15:39.040 --> 03:15:44.520 Me, refer referring to having agency thinking mind. 3102 03:15:44.840 --> 03:15:46.200 I got to retire, he reputed me. 3103 03:15:46.600 --> 03:15:47.159 Yeah, it's over. 3104 03:15:47.399 --> 03:15:49.959 If there is no they're going to bring verse and 3105 03:15:50.040 --> 03:15:53.559 if there is no immaterial element to the universe, because 3106 03:15:53.559 --> 03:15:56.840 consciousness seems like it's immaterial. It seems I mean, we 3107 03:15:56.879 --> 03:15:58.760 can answer this as if we were looking for questions 3108 03:15:58.799 --> 03:15:59.760 that materialists can't. 3109 03:15:59.840 --> 03:16:00.000 Yeah. 3110 03:16:00.159 --> 03:16:02.840 Yeah, Like consciousness is very strange. I've talked about a 3111 03:16:02.879 --> 03:16:04.600 lot recently. The people Who've been listening to my recent 3112 03:16:04.680 --> 03:16:07.879 material will know that I'm just amused by consciousness. 3113 03:16:10.040 --> 03:16:11.840 As it's it's well, it's actually it's it's a bit 3114 03:16:11.920 --> 03:16:13.399 like the laws of logic in the sense, and it's 3115 03:16:13.399 --> 03:16:14.680 one of the weirdest things. I'm one of the most 3116 03:16:14.719 --> 03:16:16.600 obvious things. What are you going to do to Like? 3117 03:16:17.280 --> 03:16:20.159 It's like I think it's Paul Churchman is a limited materialist, 3118 03:16:20.239 --> 03:16:22.879 so he thinks that the consciousness doesn't exist and he 3119 03:16:22.959 --> 03:16:25.799 thinks about it. He's funny because, like I remember reading 3120 03:16:25.799 --> 03:16:27.399 one of his papers and be like, what do you 3121 03:16:27.440 --> 03:16:31.079 mean how do I even go about disbelieving in consciousness? Yeah, 3122 03:16:31.120 --> 03:16:33.200 it's like how how how do you expect this? 3123 03:16:33.360 --> 03:16:36.040 Is another thing? Uh, there are two separate questions, Jay, 3124 03:16:36.200 --> 03:16:39.319 is what is consciousness? And are you able to coherently 3125 03:16:39.440 --> 03:16:42.280 reject consciousness? As the way you know it to be. Like, 3126 03:16:42.399 --> 03:16:46.079 even if you positive a non exhaustive definition of consciousness, 3127 03:16:46.399 --> 03:16:49.879 the act of denying it would be utilizing the thing 3128 03:16:49.959 --> 03:16:52.360 that you're denying, so it'd be absurd. But this isn't 3129 03:16:52.399 --> 03:16:56.719 a justification for consciousness or what it is. This is 3130 03:16:56.879 --> 03:17:01.239 just assuming well, whatever it is that describe, you know, 3131 03:17:03.239 --> 03:17:06.280 by just simply being able to observe and evaluate things 3132 03:17:06.399 --> 03:17:08.559 or have some sort of like interaction with the external 3133 03:17:08.600 --> 03:17:12.159 world or whatever. That doesn't tell me how it how 3134 03:17:12.200 --> 03:17:16.639 it came to be what it is specifically. So they're 3135 03:17:16.719 --> 03:17:19.520 close to I think he's close to saying, well, denying it, 3136 03:17:19.600 --> 03:17:22.840 it's gonna you know, again, we went over this, the 3137 03:17:22.920 --> 03:17:25.879 fact that you can't deny something exists would be different 3138 03:17:25.959 --> 03:17:30.040 than giving a justific justification for how and why it exists. 3139 03:17:30.120 --> 03:17:35.719 Right in this case, yeah, well we have it. 3140 03:17:36.159 --> 03:17:38.799 Yeah. I think typically atheists make that mistake. They're gonna 3141 03:17:39.559 --> 03:17:42.319 start trying to talk about where they think it came from, 3142 03:17:42.440 --> 03:17:44.680 as if that justifies it or if that gives an 3143 03:17:44.719 --> 03:17:47.680 account for it, which it doesn't. It's just telling a story. 3144 03:17:49.920 --> 03:17:52.360 But what is it? I mean, in the Orthodox view, 3145 03:17:52.440 --> 03:17:56.319 it's I guess the the energy of the of the 3146 03:17:56.719 --> 03:18:01.840 soul's awareness of what's going on in the world and 3147 03:18:02.120 --> 03:18:05.760 in terms of the beings of the world. So I 3148 03:18:05.840 --> 03:18:08.040 think we would have an energetic description of it. 3149 03:18:09.440 --> 03:18:13.840 Would that be distinct j from the news, the sort 3150 03:18:13.879 --> 03:18:17.399 of conjunction of the mind heart interaction with the metaphysical. 3151 03:18:18.159 --> 03:18:22.360 Would consciousness be something not identical to the apparatus that 3152 03:18:22.520 --> 03:18:23.920 engages with consciousness? 3153 03:18:23.920 --> 03:18:27.319 Okay, Yeah, the news is the heart. So basically, you know, 3154 03:18:27.360 --> 03:18:30.479 the mind's up here, hearts over here. So fathers always 3155 03:18:30.479 --> 03:18:33.200 say that the the mind. There's nothing wrong with the 3156 03:18:33.239 --> 03:18:36.000 intellect the mind, but it's a limited thing. It has 3157 03:18:36.079 --> 03:18:39.200 to be put into or or moved into the heart, 3158 03:18:39.280 --> 03:18:42.639 meaning that has to work in union with the heart faculty. 3159 03:18:43.280 --> 03:18:46.280 And until we are repentant and in relationship with God, 3160 03:18:46.879 --> 03:18:49.840 our heart faculty is out of whack. And so we're 3161 03:18:49.879 --> 03:18:53.079 going to think that, like all the atheists do, that 3162 03:18:53.719 --> 03:18:56.879 pure mind can explain the world. The irony, of course, 3163 03:18:57.000 --> 03:19:00.760 being that in their denial of God, they are also 3164 03:19:00.879 --> 03:19:03.920 denying the existence of immatial things like mind, so they 3165 03:19:03.959 --> 03:19:05.120 end up denying themselves. 3166 03:19:05.760 --> 03:19:08.399 Yeah, that they exist. You know, I don't exist. That's 3167 03:19:08.440 --> 03:19:11.239 interesting because I thought about this, how we from a 3168 03:19:11.399 --> 03:19:13.799 Christian view, we say something like morality is written in 3169 03:19:13.879 --> 03:19:16.319 our heart. That would be pointing to the news that 3170 03:19:16.479 --> 03:19:21.280 something is not reduced to intellect but uses intellect, wouldn't 3171 03:19:21.319 --> 03:19:24.079 deny the intellect. But then I thought, well, is there 3172 03:19:24.120 --> 03:19:28.600 a similar statement, and you tell me from a Christian 3173 03:19:28.680 --> 03:19:33.280 view orthodox specifically, is that the way in which morality 3174 03:19:33.360 --> 03:19:35.360 is written on our heart? Do we have it written 3175 03:19:35.440 --> 03:19:38.120 on our heart to want to know the truth or 3176 03:19:38.280 --> 03:19:40.520 is that a brain? Would that be reduced to like 3177 03:19:40.600 --> 03:19:42.280 the intellect wanting to know the truth? 3178 03:19:43.760 --> 03:19:46.239 I think the way that fathers describe it is that, 3179 03:19:46.920 --> 03:19:49.840 and they're not coming from a philosophy view on this, 3180 03:19:50.040 --> 03:19:53.639 they actually is actually rooted in the Hebrew prophets, because 3181 03:19:53.680 --> 03:19:56.719 you'll read like David talks about his heart. You know, 3182 03:19:56.840 --> 03:19:59.000 Paul says the Word is near you, even in your heart, 3183 03:20:00.040 --> 03:20:02.239 which is not to say that God is not connected 3184 03:20:02.280 --> 03:20:04.959 to the mind, but that fallen man has the tendency 3185 03:20:05.159 --> 03:20:08.520 to worship and only go with his intelluctenced mind, which 3186 03:20:08.600 --> 03:20:11.319 is a limited faculty. It's good, it has a lot 3187 03:20:11.360 --> 03:20:13.600 of uses, but it can't become a god. And for 3188 03:20:13.639 --> 03:20:16.760 all the atheists it's their God. And then again, ironically 3189 03:20:17.000 --> 03:20:19.440 they turn around and deny their God. But the best 3190 03:20:20.000 --> 03:20:23.040 essay on this is Saint Justin Papovich's essay on the 3191 03:20:23.920 --> 03:20:26.280 Doctrine of Knowledge of Saint Isaac the Syrian. It's in 3192 03:20:26.360 --> 03:20:30.000 his book Life in Christ by Justin Popovitch, and he 3193 03:20:30.079 --> 03:20:33.559 explains in there that I think ideally what is supposed 3194 03:20:33.559 --> 03:20:38.040 to happen is that man's mind is basically in his heart, 3195 03:20:38.200 --> 03:20:42.639 and so that means that through repentance and through relationship 3196 03:20:42.680 --> 03:20:47.000 with God, I can then correctly interpret the world through 3197 03:20:47.120 --> 03:20:49.520 my heart, which is seeing it through the eyes of 3198 03:20:49.559 --> 03:20:52.760 God right and seeing that I can see the world correctly. 3199 03:20:52.959 --> 03:20:56.680 Whereas when the heart and the mind are divided, I 3200 03:20:56.840 --> 03:21:01.120 see the world in this bare cold intellectual way, which 3201 03:21:01.159 --> 03:21:02.680 actually ends up destroying. 3202 03:21:02.319 --> 03:21:05.000 The intellect got you and then not and holding that 3203 03:21:05.200 --> 03:21:08.600 view doesn't clear the windshield, so to speak. That from 3204 03:21:08.639 --> 03:21:14.159 our view, the practice the going to divine liturgy, the 3205 03:21:14.280 --> 03:21:16.680 practice of clearing the hard, clearing the soul like a 3206 03:21:17.920 --> 03:21:19.879 it's not like it's not like you just yeah, it's 3207 03:21:19.920 --> 03:21:21.760 not like you just go, well, I hold this view. 3208 03:21:21.799 --> 03:21:25.159 Therefore it's like I'm not exactly it's. 3209 03:21:25.000 --> 03:21:27.719 An acquiring of the virtues. In other words, this is 3210 03:21:27.760 --> 03:21:29.799 that point we have to always have to come back to, like, 3211 03:21:30.280 --> 03:21:35.319 you can't divorce a pistemology from ethics because, as Wood 3212 03:21:35.399 --> 03:21:37.319 points out W. J. Wood in that book, he points 3213 03:21:37.360 --> 03:21:41.639 out that like wouldn't we think that the realm of 3214 03:21:41.760 --> 03:21:45.440 intellect and reasoning, Like wouldn't we want people to be 3215 03:21:45.600 --> 03:21:50.079 intellectually honest? Like So in other words, obviously you can't 3216 03:21:50.120 --> 03:21:52.879 divorce the pistemology from virtues. So in the same way, 3217 03:21:53.079 --> 03:21:55.319 like if I'm going to interpret the world correctly, am 3218 03:21:55.360 --> 03:21:58.079 I going to be able to interpret it correctly? If 3219 03:21:58.120 --> 03:22:00.799 I am im mentioning all the and I don't care 3220 03:22:00.799 --> 03:22:03.360 about fxture, Yeah, I'm gonna lie about the world. I'm 3221 03:22:03.360 --> 03:22:04.719 gonna lie about what I think. Yeah. 3222 03:22:05.120 --> 03:22:08.559 Yeah, That's what fascinates me about that the Scripture, the 3223 03:22:08.639 --> 03:22:11.680 fool in his heart, you know, rejects God essentially because 3224 03:22:13.200 --> 03:22:16.239 it's not that they're using just their intellect in their 3225 03:22:16.559 --> 03:22:20.959 sort of in their rebellion of God, you know, because 3226 03:22:21.040 --> 03:22:23.479 coming to the conclusion like, oh, God doesn't exist if 3227 03:22:23.520 --> 03:22:26.760 it was just purely intellect, it's not like the emotional 3228 03:22:26.840 --> 03:22:30.360 aspect of rebellion of that or or let's say counter 3229 03:22:30.479 --> 03:22:33.360 apologetics is based in just the mind, I find I 3230 03:22:33.479 --> 03:22:36.680 find not that, not that I'm trying to fully interpret 3231 03:22:36.760 --> 03:22:38.799 that myself, you know, here is just that I just 3232 03:22:38.840 --> 03:22:42.600 find it interesting that the select word used is the 3233 03:22:42.719 --> 03:22:45.559 fool in his heart, not in his mind and his intellect. 3234 03:22:45.600 --> 03:22:49.000 The fool in his heart has this engagement with rebellion, 3235 03:22:49.760 --> 03:22:53.600 which means he's actually engaging in something that his intellect 3236 03:22:53.680 --> 03:22:57.840 can't justify, which is this like urge to deny or 3237 03:22:58.239 --> 03:23:01.479 or fight. That's not an intellectual process necessary. 3238 03:23:01.120 --> 03:23:04.719 Exactly the difference between East and West. I mean, the 3239 03:23:04.879 --> 03:23:09.520 entire Roman Catholic tradition after Augustine equates the soul with 3240 03:23:09.719 --> 03:23:12.840 the mind or the intellect. And so that's why it's 3241 03:23:12.840 --> 03:23:15.280 another reason why they think natural theology is true. It's 3242 03:23:15.280 --> 03:23:17.360 another reason reason why they think that, well, if I 3243 03:23:17.440 --> 03:23:20.719 just present the evidences, you'll believe right, they're missing the 3244 03:23:20.760 --> 03:23:23.799 whole point that, like, you can't interpret even the natural 3245 03:23:23.840 --> 03:23:25.840 world correctly without repentance. 3246 03:23:26.159 --> 03:23:28.440 Right, because the intellect would be some sort of added 3247 03:23:28.520 --> 03:23:32.559 tool we're given to point to God or to find 3248 03:23:32.799 --> 03:23:35.360 in a sense, but it doesn't fully get us there. 3249 03:23:35.879 --> 03:23:41.239 But the intellect doesn't give you the heart that to 3250 03:23:41.360 --> 03:23:43.840 give you the sense of why it is to even 3251 03:23:43.920 --> 03:23:45.840 use the intellect like the intellect does and give you 3252 03:23:45.879 --> 03:23:46.200 the reason. 3253 03:23:46.680 --> 03:23:50.000 It's like the difference. It's like the difference between me 3254 03:23:50.280 --> 03:23:56.879 listing all the facts about my wife versus the actual relationship. 3255 03:23:56.399 --> 03:23:57.600 We have, right, right. 3256 03:23:58.239 --> 03:24:01.639 The facts aren't wrong, they're not bad. Yeah, but it's 3257 03:24:01.760 --> 03:24:03.760 not the relationship, right. 3258 03:24:03.959 --> 03:24:06.239 Yeah, that's interesting. It's not like that. You know, our 3259 03:24:06.360 --> 03:24:09.319 loved ones are like magic to gather or baseball cards 3260 03:24:09.360 --> 03:24:11.799 would be more appropriate, and they have a list of attributes. 3261 03:24:12.040 --> 03:24:13.280 And then you're like, I want to be with my 3262 03:24:13.319 --> 03:24:15.760 wife and you're just looking like at a baseball part 3263 03:24:15.799 --> 03:24:18.159 of your wife. It's like, no, that's not the participation 3264 03:24:18.360 --> 03:24:20.360 that my wife is a fog and I throw down. 3265 03:24:21.399 --> 03:24:21.559 Yeah. 3266 03:24:21.719 --> 03:24:26.639 Total, you're like down, like you're downloading info and facts 3267 03:24:26.799 --> 03:24:28.799 and just read them over and over. My wife is beautiful, 3268 03:24:28.840 --> 03:24:29.680 My wife is beautiful. 3269 03:24:30.559 --> 03:24:34.520 That's funny analogy that FDA had between like imagine thinking 3270 03:24:34.680 --> 03:24:37.639 that this is all like a rational contract or like 3271 03:24:37.719 --> 03:24:41.239 a letter, right, rather than like the relationship you have 3272 03:24:41.479 --> 03:24:44.920 with your wife. Right. So if somebody read a letter 3273 03:24:45.079 --> 03:24:48.959 about me, would they know me in a limited sense? Yeah? 3274 03:24:49.000 --> 03:24:51.479 I know about Jay. I read that letter that described 3275 03:24:51.479 --> 03:24:53.360 what he's like that doesn't mean. 3276 03:24:53.280 --> 03:24:56.959 They know me, right, right? Yeah. That that's also gets 3277 03:24:57.000 --> 03:25:01.399 into the our energies is our nature and our or 3278 03:25:01.479 --> 03:25:03.879 our essence, is that when we engage with each other, 3279 03:25:04.200 --> 03:25:07.760 we're engaging with energies and they're not reducible to a 3280 03:25:07.879 --> 03:25:11.680 list in an essay, right, Like, so there are these 3281 03:25:11.760 --> 03:25:15.520 things and you know again, even energies might even be 3282 03:25:15.760 --> 03:25:19.520 like limited analogy, right because you know, because we have 3283 03:25:19.600 --> 03:25:21.920 the words that we have, right, someone might press me like, well, 3284 03:25:22.079 --> 03:25:24.959 energy refers to like a for like a force, something 3285 03:25:25.040 --> 03:25:29.040 you can like physically manipulate. Well, I guess it's I mean, 3286 03:25:29.360 --> 03:25:29.879 what are we saying. 3287 03:25:29.920 --> 03:25:33.559 No, it's not just physical. That's why. Uh, like we 3288 03:25:33.559 --> 03:25:37.840 were talking about with Maximus and other Orthodox saints and theologians, 3289 03:25:37.959 --> 03:25:41.879 like the energy of the mind. So when you talk 3290 03:25:42.000 --> 03:25:45.559 to me, there's there's an energy, a mental energy that's 3291 03:25:45.600 --> 03:25:49.239 happening here that's not equated to It has a relationship 3292 03:25:49.280 --> 03:25:51.239 to the neurons firing. But it can't be reduced and 3293 03:25:51.360 --> 03:25:55.479 equated to uh, physical energy, like you're saying. 3294 03:25:55.319 --> 03:25:59.239 Right, right, because intent an active activity like you could 3295 03:25:59.239 --> 03:26:02.719 say activity. Someone might take a mechanical approach, but intent, 3296 03:26:02.879 --> 03:26:05.079 you can't isolate the intent right. 3297 03:26:05.399 --> 03:26:07.399 Got a great point, you know, I think, yeah, that 3298 03:26:07.479 --> 03:26:11.639 intent would come from your innermost being, your your innermost desires, 3299 03:26:11.680 --> 03:26:14.719 which is not is not reducible to your mind. Like 3300 03:26:14.840 --> 03:26:18.799 your mind is not identical to your intentionality or or 3301 03:26:19.000 --> 03:26:22.000 or your love right love. Uh, you know, your love 3302 03:26:22.120 --> 03:26:25.719 for your wife relates to your mind, and it manifests 3303 03:26:25.719 --> 03:26:27.920 in thoughts about it, but it's not reducible to or 3304 03:26:27.959 --> 03:26:31.639 identical to your thoughts about your right thoughts about love. 3305 03:26:31.719 --> 03:26:33.680 It comes from your from your innermost being. 3306 03:26:34.200 --> 03:26:36.600 Yeah, that's actually a good point. People were bringing up 3307 03:26:37.120 --> 03:26:39.520 the relational argument for like say that trinity. We don't. 3308 03:26:39.559 --> 03:26:41.520 We don't have to get into depth. But it is 3309 03:26:41.639 --> 03:26:44.799 interesting how once you point these things out, how even 3310 03:26:44.840 --> 03:26:47.680 our engagement with let's say love, the act of loving 3311 03:26:47.879 --> 03:26:52.920 is this participation between persons. There's an activity. And if 3312 03:26:52.959 --> 03:26:56.040 it wasn't that you would just be able to participate 3313 03:26:56.120 --> 03:26:58.239 in your own head and say your loved your wife. 3314 03:26:58.440 --> 03:27:01.600 You just be If Islam was true, for instance, or 3315 03:27:01.719 --> 03:27:04.840 Unitarian Christianity quote Christianity would be true, you could just 3316 03:27:05.079 --> 03:27:08.360 love just in your brain and you'd be doing the 3317 03:27:08.479 --> 03:27:10.680 virtue of what You'd be just doing the practice of love. 3318 03:27:10.760 --> 03:27:14.399 It would just be an internal exercise with engaging with 3319 03:27:14.559 --> 03:27:17.639 the self projection of the thing you say love is 3320 03:27:18.120 --> 03:27:21.239 or the sorry the subject of who you're loving. And 3321 03:27:21.319 --> 03:27:24.680 if you did it internally, it would be sufficient because well, I. 3322 03:27:24.680 --> 03:27:27.280 Mean, this is what we say about all Western deviations, 3323 03:27:27.319 --> 03:27:30.040 and even you could include Islam and Protestanism as well, 3324 03:27:30.200 --> 03:27:34.959 because we would typically say they're worshiping their idea. Yeah, 3325 03:27:35.319 --> 03:27:36.079 the idea of God. 3326 03:27:36.600 --> 03:27:39.120 Right, Yeah, that's a good point. I'm actually going to 3327 03:27:39.239 --> 03:27:41.280 not listen to the rest of these guys, Jay, is 3328 03:27:41.319 --> 03:27:43.680 there anything coming up exciting for you, whether it's in 3329 03:27:43.760 --> 03:27:47.000 the physical or non physical Online. 3330 03:27:47.440 --> 03:27:50.040 My mind will be engaging in a zone theory energy 3331 03:27:50.120 --> 03:27:54.399 consciousness transference to the fifth dimension next week. It's called 3332 03:27:54.440 --> 03:28:00.360 a sension Millennium. Corey Feldon will be playing Lives going on. 3333 03:28:01.200 --> 03:28:04.000 I thought about kind of opening up to debate. I 3334 03:28:04.040 --> 03:28:05.399 don't know if I'll have time to do that today. 3335 03:28:05.520 --> 03:28:08.000 We just did a long interview this morning. Tomorrow I'll 3336 03:28:08.000 --> 03:28:10.920 be doing a live stream on Islam with a pasta 3337 03:28:11.040 --> 03:28:15.520 profit over on his channel Jamie, and that will be 3338 03:28:15.879 --> 03:28:20.239 covering the vm as I think tomorrow night as well. So, yeah, 3339 03:28:20.280 --> 03:28:21.000 that's what's coming up. 3340 03:28:21.639 --> 03:28:24.040 Nice. That should be fun vm as from a sort 3341 03:28:24.040 --> 03:28:28.360 of Hollywood uncoded occultism view. 3342 03:28:29.840 --> 03:28:32.280 Yeah, I have no idea what's happened. I haven't watched 3343 03:28:32.280 --> 03:28:34.000 any of those kinds of shows since, Like, I think 3344 03:28:34.040 --> 03:28:37.760 the last one of that I've ever watched was like 3345 03:28:37.840 --> 03:28:41.360 the whole thing was the super Bowl back when it 3346 03:28:41.520 --> 03:28:46.040 was like Beyonce Black Lives Matter, and then then Coldplay 3347 03:28:46.120 --> 03:28:50.079 came out with like giant golden rainbow patch or giant 3348 03:28:50.200 --> 03:28:53.959 rainbow patches about world government and that was the last 3349 03:28:54.200 --> 03:28:54.719 super Bowl. 3350 03:28:55.600 --> 03:28:57.959 Yeah, I was wondering, like how you're still engage with 3351 03:28:58.040 --> 03:29:00.600 that stuff, because once you isolate what they're kind of doing, 3352 03:29:01.440 --> 03:29:05.079 like it almost becomes almost like a gimmick where you 3353 03:29:05.120 --> 03:29:07.920 almost don't even take it. I think it's serious. I 3354 03:29:07.959 --> 03:29:11.159 think it's serious as far as like demonic stuff. But 3355 03:29:11.239 --> 03:29:14.799 I always I'm always wondering this, like how much I 3356 03:29:15.159 --> 03:29:18.879 put into their really serious people about this versus it's 3357 03:29:18.959 --> 03:29:22.920 like this cultural thing that has like demonic undertones to it, 3358 03:29:23.399 --> 03:29:25.680 but they're all not fully aware of what they're doing. 3359 03:29:26.120 --> 03:29:28.959 Well, that's I think that happens at times for sure. 3360 03:29:29.079 --> 03:29:32.159 I mean I think like Coldplayer, just like you know, 3361 03:29:33.520 --> 03:29:35.879 you buy them off and they play and they do. 3362 03:29:36.000 --> 03:29:39.440 They promote rainbows and the New World Order for money. 3363 03:29:39.520 --> 03:29:41.799 But I mean, if I forgot about the Olympics, I 3364 03:29:41.840 --> 03:29:46.280 mean that that was very anti Christian occult Jacob, and 3365 03:29:46.440 --> 03:29:49.239 so the Olympics stuff was pretty crazy. 3366 03:29:49.799 --> 03:29:51.719 Yeah, that was a I always thought of that. People 3367 03:29:51.799 --> 03:29:54.799 asked me, and like some of their defenders were like, well, no, 3368 03:29:55.360 --> 03:29:59.399 you know, Christianity has these visuals that are downstream from 3369 03:29:59.479 --> 03:30:02.840 previous visuals and they're just promoting the previous visuals. Well, no, 3370 03:30:03.000 --> 03:30:05.719 you can't really separate these two as far as how 3371 03:30:05.760 --> 03:30:09.200 people perceive them in public now. But then I was thinking, 3372 03:30:10.079 --> 03:30:12.399 you know, how much of this stuff do you think 3373 03:30:12.520 --> 03:30:17.280 is a troll versus there's an actual concerted sort of 3374 03:30:17.360 --> 03:30:20.280 demonic warfare or they just know they're going to upset 3375 03:30:20.399 --> 03:30:23.079 people and then upset is going to bring eyes to 3376 03:30:23.200 --> 03:30:23.600 more of it. 3377 03:30:23.760 --> 03:30:27.360 Like I always, I think some people are committed to 3378 03:30:28.520 --> 03:30:32.479 being a ritual action against the good. The good. Yeah, 3379 03:30:33.159 --> 03:30:34.600 and I think there's a lot of low level dumb 3380 03:30:34.680 --> 03:30:39.079 dumbs that eat it up and think that it dude. 3381 03:30:39.399 --> 03:30:43.079 Just art, bro. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty gross. Well, I 3382 03:30:43.239 --> 03:30:45.920 really appreciate you jumping on if you're if you're doing 3383 03:30:46.280 --> 03:30:49.479 a space later. I'm sure many of us will show up. 3384 03:30:49.520 --> 03:30:51.600 The spaces are pretty fun. They have a different sort 3385 03:30:51.639 --> 03:30:53.280 of nature to them. 3386 03:30:53.319 --> 03:30:55.159 I can't get. Yeah, you know it's weird. Yeah. Like 3387 03:30:55.319 --> 03:30:58.520 so if you're on Twitter, it's like it's its own vibe. 3388 03:30:58.600 --> 03:31:00.920 If you do a live stream debating with videos on TikTok, 3389 03:31:01.040 --> 03:31:04.440 it's a whole nother lower IQ level of vibe. Yeah 3390 03:31:04.719 --> 03:31:07.120 yeah said whereferent audience. 3391 03:31:07.639 --> 03:31:09.280 Yeah yeah, so I'm going to do more of those 3392 03:31:09.319 --> 03:31:09.639 as well. 3393 03:31:09.719 --> 03:31:13.000 But experience, I know you're trying to go, but no, no, no, 3394 03:31:13.200 --> 03:31:17.840 it is like me, it seems like they're crazy. 3395 03:31:18.200 --> 03:31:21.680 It hurts my spirit. It's like I resent it and 3396 03:31:21.840 --> 03:31:24.479 also go well, like you saw. The only way for 3397 03:31:24.600 --> 03:31:27.680 me to really deal with that in long term doing 3398 03:31:27.719 --> 03:31:30.920 it is becoming like crystological and going as a character. 3399 03:31:31.360 --> 03:31:33.760 It's the only way I can do it. You know, 3400 03:31:33.799 --> 03:31:36.120 I've seen Andrew do it. He can do that and 3401 03:31:36.319 --> 03:31:39.159 just deal with that. I literally have a limit where 3402 03:31:39.200 --> 03:31:41.879 I just lose. I lose it, like I can't. I 3403 03:31:42.000 --> 03:31:44.280 can't do it, So I have to either do a character. 3404 03:31:44.559 --> 03:31:49.239 But on on Twitter, it's definitely attracts higher level exchanges, 3405 03:31:49.440 --> 03:31:49.600 you know. 3406 03:31:50.319 --> 03:31:52.479 But now that where are you getting your pool of 3407 03:31:52.559 --> 03:31:54.959 atheists from. Is it from YouTube crowds? 3408 03:31:55.239 --> 03:31:58.719 I have no Actually I'm still just starting, so my goal. 3409 03:31:58.680 --> 03:32:00.639 Only get breakfast tacos. Did he come from? 3410 03:32:00.680 --> 03:32:03.600 Oh oh yeah, yeah, Well I think breakfast tacos is 3411 03:32:04.760 --> 03:32:08.559 basically from when I did arguments against atheism one, two, 3412 03:32:08.600 --> 03:32:14.000 and three pretty much was tossed around as a hot 3413 03:32:14.040 --> 03:32:17.440 potato in the atheist communities like oh, look at this dork. Oh, 3414 03:32:17.520 --> 03:32:20.399 I can't wait to debunk this, so they eventually got 3415 03:32:20.440 --> 03:32:22.479 their eyes on me, which is very effective. Like if 3416 03:32:22.520 --> 03:32:25.799 you do Jay, you've done a bunch of anti atheist arguments, 3417 03:32:26.559 --> 03:32:29.319 if you like, just tag all of them, like not 3418 03:32:29.479 --> 03:32:31.799 that you want that attention because it really it really 3419 03:32:31.879 --> 03:32:34.719 brings in low tier stuff, which I always say, well, 3420 03:32:35.159 --> 03:32:38.280 Jay's currently above this right now, but I can do this. 3421 03:32:39.200 --> 03:32:41.399 I can deal because you're just gonna be like, yeah, dude, 3422 03:32:41.440 --> 03:32:43.879 you'r goober, move on, and and you're gonna try to 3423 03:32:43.920 --> 03:32:47.799 get into higher level stuff. I'm still you know, you know, 3424 03:32:49.360 --> 03:32:53.200 quote Baptism through fire dealing with these people. But it's 3425 03:32:53.239 --> 03:32:56.360 certainly fun because breakfast tacos, it's hilarious to go in 3426 03:32:56.520 --> 03:32:59.120 and just annihilate to the level I can do it. 3427 03:32:59.799 --> 03:33:01.840 So of these perish I listened to about half of 3428 03:33:01.879 --> 03:33:04.399 that of you and him, and then I got to 3429 03:33:04.399 --> 03:33:05.639 the point where I was like, I can't listen to 3430 03:33:05.680 --> 03:33:06.239 this guy anymore. 3431 03:33:06.440 --> 03:33:08.399 He can't well, he's just yelling and screaming. I'm just 3432 03:33:08.479 --> 03:33:10.680 not answering very basic questions. By the way, did you 3433 03:33:10.719 --> 03:33:13.840 want to talk about that really quick? Because I know 3434 03:33:13.920 --> 03:33:16.280 I sent you his silly stuff and it's like, I 3435 03:33:16.319 --> 03:33:18.319 don't even expect you to give it a wink. 3436 03:33:18.440 --> 03:33:18.799 But uh. 3437 03:33:19.280 --> 03:33:23.319 The argument is this, Jay, premise one, everything that we 3438 03:33:23.440 --> 03:33:29.600 observe to exist comes from previous stuff arises, sorryrises, right, Okay, 3439 03:33:29.840 --> 03:33:34.239 premise to the universe exists. Conclusion the universe comes from 3440 03:33:34.280 --> 03:33:38.159 previous rises from previous stuff. Now I went three different 3441 03:33:38.200 --> 03:33:40.600 angles to completely destroy this. What is the main one? 3442 03:33:40.639 --> 03:33:43.600 You would would have gone right away from this or 3443 03:33:43.799 --> 03:33:44.079 from this? 3444 03:33:45.239 --> 03:33:48.000 Well right away. It reminds me of what we were 3445 03:33:48.040 --> 03:33:49.879 talking about when I first came in today with you, 3446 03:33:50.120 --> 03:33:53.239 which was, well, this seems to be making kind of 3447 03:33:53.319 --> 03:33:57.200 an almost universal claim about states of affairs. I don't 3448 03:33:57.200 --> 03:34:01.120 know how you have any access to our knowledge of that. Yeah, 3449 03:34:01.959 --> 03:34:03.479 so this sounds like a universal law, Like. 3450 03:34:03.600 --> 03:34:06.760 He says inductive, he says induction. He said, Jay, I'm 3451 03:34:06.920 --> 03:34:09.799 using an adoctive argument, right, that's what he says. 3452 03:34:09.639 --> 03:34:13.399 I'm using, right, But induction can never get you to 3453 03:34:13.840 --> 03:34:17.799 your universal state of affairs, right, And he said it's 3454 03:34:17.840 --> 03:34:18.440 not lawlike. 3455 03:34:19.079 --> 03:34:21.280 No, he would say, he's not making an argument of 3456 03:34:21.360 --> 03:34:25.040 certainty or universal claims about states of affairs. But you 3457 03:34:25.200 --> 03:34:28.760 have to because to say there's a past, you can't 3458 03:34:29.159 --> 03:34:32.360 you're not using induction to us to come to the 3459 03:34:32.440 --> 03:34:35.239 conclusion of the regularity of the past, you have to 3460 03:34:35.280 --> 03:34:36.639 assume that, right, that there's things. 3461 03:34:36.920 --> 03:34:40.200 In other words, he's basically saying to reduce this to absurdity, 3462 03:34:40.239 --> 03:34:44.319 he's just saying that the stuff that I've ever observed 3463 03:34:44.760 --> 03:34:47.040 comes from other thoughts, which is basically to say, not 3464 03:34:47.159 --> 03:34:47.600 much question. 3465 03:34:48.159 --> 03:34:50.719 It doesn't. Actually I did a swap out of his argument. 3466 03:34:50.840 --> 03:34:54.959 If his argument is everything we see today quote stuff, right, 3467 03:34:55.000 --> 03:34:58.079 because that would be stuff arises from stuff. Okay, stuff 3468 03:34:58.120 --> 03:35:01.719 arises from stuff. Premise one universe exists, Well, what's the universe? 3469 03:35:01.959 --> 03:35:06.799 Stuff stuff exists. That's that's pretty much the translation. The 3470 03:35:06.920 --> 03:35:10.399 conclusion is stuff arises from stelf So you know, he's 3471 03:35:10.520 --> 03:35:13.280 positing something as an inductive argument when really it's just 3472 03:35:13.360 --> 03:35:15.000 a circular argument that starts. 3473 03:35:14.760 --> 03:35:17.479 With the You could also critique it as really a 3474 03:35:17.719 --> 03:35:18.559 meaningless statement. 3475 03:35:19.040 --> 03:35:20.159 It is, it's just gibberish. 3476 03:35:20.479 --> 03:35:24.680 Yeah, so everything, it's like saying everything comes from something 3477 03:35:25.639 --> 03:35:29.239 and then that produces more things stuff. Yeah, and what 3478 03:35:29.399 --> 03:35:30.879 is that tall us about the world. Nothing. 3479 03:35:31.440 --> 03:35:33.879 It tells us nothing, which is why it's like a parody. 3480 03:35:34.399 --> 03:35:35.399 P A. R. I. T. 3481 03:35:35.760 --> 03:35:38.440 Y of I think the colomb this is where he's 3482 03:35:38.559 --> 03:35:41.920 run off with this. Uh, these sort of components that 3483 03:35:42.040 --> 03:35:45.000 go back in time and have this initial cause or whatever. 3484 03:35:45.399 --> 03:35:48.319 Stuff comes from stuff. But again, my another critique I 3485 03:35:48.399 --> 03:35:50.760 had jay is stuff arising from. 3486 03:35:50.680 --> 03:35:53.319 Stuff arising as a process. 3487 03:35:53.760 --> 03:35:55.079 Yeah, yeah, problem. 3488 03:35:57.600 --> 03:35:58.399 You could also. 3489 03:35:59.719 --> 03:36:00.280 Are there. 3490 03:36:03.799 --> 03:36:09.120 You froze? There? Are you there? 3491 03:36:11.079 --> 03:36:12.280 Yep? Keep freezing? 3492 03:36:12.719 --> 03:36:16.399 That's okay. Also, basically you could just run through everything 3493 03:36:16.479 --> 03:36:19.079 that Hume raises as a major issue at critique any 3494 03:36:19.120 --> 03:36:22.200 position like that, Like, Okay, how do you know that 3495 03:36:22.639 --> 03:36:25.520 the stuff that you're using as a mental conceptual thing 3496 03:36:26.440 --> 03:36:29.319 and then you're saying there's a causal relationship of it 3497 03:36:29.479 --> 03:36:32.840 producing or causing more stuff? How do you know that 3498 03:36:32.959 --> 03:36:35.319 there's this stuff in the external world? And how do 3499 03:36:35.360 --> 03:36:37.239 you know that there's actually causation in the external world 3500 03:36:37.280 --> 03:36:38.200 because you haven't observed that. 3501 03:36:39.040 --> 03:36:42.040 So he says circular arguments and tautologies are only allowed. No, 3502 03:36:42.159 --> 03:36:45.840 we accept tautologies of language. We'd accept using logic, but 3503 03:36:46.040 --> 03:36:50.040 the justification is what we're really asking for. So, like, 3504 03:36:50.120 --> 03:36:54.799 even if we granted you some sort of like linguistic circularity, 3505 03:36:55.000 --> 03:36:56.600 like you know, a tree is a tree, we know 3506 03:36:56.680 --> 03:37:00.239 what we're referring to, will allow it or whatever? I 3507 03:37:00.319 --> 03:37:04.399 would disagree with this that when a Christian's a Christian 3508 03:37:04.440 --> 03:37:08.159 does a circular argument, right, well, we would say and 3509 03:37:08.239 --> 03:37:10.719 correct me if I'm wrong. Jay, Here is that if 3510 03:37:10.760 --> 03:37:15.399 you posit God, if you posit any ultimate necessary grounding 3511 03:37:15.479 --> 03:37:18.360 for all things, I don't think you can get away 3512 03:37:18.440 --> 03:37:22.840 with what you're calling circular or ultimacy, like some ultimacy 3513 03:37:23.159 --> 03:37:26.440 that you have to appeal to eventually. So you're just 3514 03:37:26.479 --> 03:37:31.159 saying circularity wrong. But why you know why is why 3515 03:37:31.239 --> 03:37:32.600 circularity right? Do you want to respond to. 3516 03:37:32.600 --> 03:37:36.200 Me's seeing the point that, like as FDA was saying 3517 03:37:36.200 --> 03:37:38.120 the other day, I mean, if you're talking about in 3518 03:37:38.680 --> 03:37:41.440 normal day to day conversations about this or that thing 3519 03:37:41.559 --> 03:37:44.959 tru or false, you can't commit a circular argument. But 3520 03:37:45.040 --> 03:37:48.040 when you're talking about the final court of appeal for 3521 03:37:48.079 --> 03:37:51.840 anybody's worldview or their starting point. Everybody will have a 3522 03:37:52.040 --> 03:37:57.399 self referencing, self authenticating, recursive starting point. And we're saying 3523 03:37:57.399 --> 03:37:59.760 that that's true for everybody, right, And the only other 3524 03:38:00.000 --> 03:38:02.239 option if you don't believe that is to pause to 3525 03:38:02.360 --> 03:38:04.879 some kind of self evidence, which is very easy to 3526 03:38:05.040 --> 03:38:07.120 refute to show that no, actually you are believing in 3527 03:38:07.239 --> 03:38:11.879 some kind of self referencing, recursive thing. And that's the 3528 03:38:11.920 --> 03:38:15.239 whole point. When we talk about Girdell in completeness, theorems 3529 03:38:15.360 --> 03:38:19.000 or the limitations of any system, they ultimately they become 3530 03:38:19.079 --> 03:38:23.200 self referencing. So we're saying that's true for everybody. Atheists, materialists, 3531 03:38:24.440 --> 03:38:27.799 christian they're all self referencing world views because it's inescapable. 3532 03:38:28.079 --> 03:38:30.280 So we're not saying that we are allowed to have 3533 03:38:31.040 --> 03:38:32.799 fallacies and atheists aren't. 3534 03:38:33.159 --> 03:38:37.000 Right, Yeah, because fallacy is actually referencing a particular kind 3535 03:38:37.040 --> 03:38:40.639 of system of logic. Where you reject fallacy a circularity 3536 03:38:40.959 --> 03:38:43.719 like well Emmanuel says, not all circularity ends up being 3537 03:38:43.920 --> 03:38:47.120 viciously quote viciously or whatever, But that gets into a 3538 03:38:47.200 --> 03:38:47.920 newer debli. 3539 03:38:47.879 --> 03:38:50.680 Yeah, fallacies are not allowed at the normal level of 3540 03:38:50.760 --> 03:38:54.479 logic and argumentation. But when you ask metalogical questions about 3541 03:38:54.680 --> 03:38:58.000 how does logic itself work? What's the logic of logic, 3542 03:38:58.799 --> 03:39:01.840 then everyone will be forced into some sort of self 3543 03:39:01.879 --> 03:39:03.600 reference saying recursive position. 3544 03:39:03.840 --> 03:39:05.239 That's the point, gotcha? 3545 03:39:05.360 --> 03:39:05.520 Yeah? 3546 03:39:05.559 --> 03:39:07.040 Well, by the way, the guy who just said that, 3547 03:39:07.239 --> 03:39:09.879 I had a little exchange with him on the UH 3548 03:39:10.399 --> 03:39:12.559 on this channel and on the X base, and he 3549 03:39:12.639 --> 03:39:15.399 said he was he couldn't be sure he's not an apple. 3550 03:39:15.559 --> 03:39:19.399 So I mean, you know, I usually I usually UH 3551 03:39:19.920 --> 03:39:22.639 start with are you you know, to what extent you're 3552 03:39:22.639 --> 03:39:24.319 certain you're not an apple? And then we can get 3553 03:39:24.360 --> 03:39:28.959 into the circularity of Christianity. Cool, Well, everybody who's listening, 3554 03:39:29.040 --> 03:39:31.079 go follow J Dyer or J Dyer or is it 3555 03:39:31.200 --> 03:39:35.200 Jay's analysis? What's the title of your And then yeah. 3556 03:39:35.079 --> 03:39:36.879 I think I think I'm pretty much in a mood 3557 03:39:36.920 --> 03:39:38.520 to debate, so we're going to open it up here. 3558 03:39:38.559 --> 03:39:40.399 All right, we got Jay in the mood for a debate, 3559 03:39:40.520 --> 03:39:42.479 So go over there, Big Tech if you want to 3560 03:39:42.520 --> 03:39:44.280 debate Jay. I know he was on and you click 3561 03:39:44.360 --> 03:39:46.200 the link. I wanted to go through this with Jay 3562 03:39:46.280 --> 03:39:48.879 without any interruptions or cross talk. If you want to 3563 03:39:49.159 --> 03:39:52.479 debate him big tech, go for it. Go over to 3564 03:39:52.559 --> 03:39:54.920 Jay and and do that is as. 3565 03:39:54.879 --> 03:39:56.639 Well as everyone. I'll have it up in the next 3566 03:39:56.680 --> 03:39:57.680 thirty forty five minutes. 3567 03:39:57.879 --> 03:40:00.639 Okay, man, all right, thanks a lot. I'll see Oh yeah, 3568 03:40:00.680 --> 03:40:05.319 no problem, okay, cool, Thank you Jay, and I'll just 3569 03:40:05.520 --> 03:40:09.040 check these chats before I head off. I got a 3570 03:40:09.120 --> 03:40:12.600 fifteen dollars bob chat from Glenn Hall fifteen little Krabby's 3571 03:40:12.680 --> 03:40:14.920 for a master. Thank you, Thank you for the native krabbies, 3572 03:40:15.239 --> 03:40:19.639 Native Krabbys. We'll just creat universe. Okay, I've searched that. 3573 03:40:19.799 --> 03:40:22.680 I got that. Let me just check one more thing 3574 03:40:22.799 --> 03:40:26.440 over here and uh, and then I'll leave you guys 3575 03:40:26.479 --> 03:40:30.440 to do it. Okay, make sure uh. If you want 3576 03:40:30.479 --> 03:40:33.840 to support the stream, become a member super chat or 3577 03:40:33.840 --> 03:40:36.239 if you're hearing this after the fact and got a 3578 03:40:36.319 --> 03:40:38.760 lot of good stuff from this. If you want to 3579 03:40:38.760 --> 03:40:42.559 support the channel, go to bob chats dot com. Uh, 3580 03:40:42.799 --> 03:40:45.440 and I will be I will see your donation there 3581 03:40:45.479 --> 03:40:48.719 and I will read your comment on the next stream. 3582 03:40:49.319 --> 03:40:52.159 Twenty dollars came in for Jay and jibs. Sharp analysis 3583 03:40:52.200 --> 03:40:54.159 of worldview is always a great duo. Yeah, it's always 3584 03:40:54.159 --> 03:40:56.079 great when he can jump on. He's a busy dude, 3585 03:40:57.360 --> 03:40:58.520 but it's always a fun talk. 3586 03:40:59.239 --> 03:40:59.600 All right. 3587 03:40:59.680 --> 03:41:02.520 Well, if you guys want to watch big Tech, go 3588 03:41:02.639 --> 03:41:05.639 over to Jay Dyer. Go over there. Now, I'm not 3589 03:41:05.680 --> 03:41:08.600 gonna send you to a different stream right now because 3590 03:41:08.639 --> 03:41:11.719 it's not set up, but and hit the like button. 3591 03:41:11.760 --> 03:41:14.600 There's four hundred and thirty nine of you, now, please 3592 03:41:14.760 --> 03:41:18.799 hit the like. It really helps. 3593 03:41:22.079 --> 03:41:22.479 A lot. 3594 03:41:23.040 --> 03:41:26.959 And then I'm gonna go see if there's a I'm 3595 03:41:27.000 --> 03:41:29.360 gonna go to like a trampoline place or something, you 3596 03:41:29.440 --> 03:41:33.639 know what I mean. Oh, whoops, I forgot