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to thank everyone. It's because of you that I can

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put out the amount of material that I do. I

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can do what I'm doing with doctor Johnson on two

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hundred Years Together and everything else, the things that Thomas

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and I are doing together on kindinal philosophy, it's all

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because of you. And yeah, I mean, I'll never be

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able to thank you enough. So thank you. The pekan

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Yonashow dot com. Everything's there. I want to welcome everyone

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back to the Peaking Yona Show. Thomas is back for

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episode three of the three hundred. Of the three hundred

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that would be that would be horrendous, the Thirty Years War.

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Hey you're doing Thomas.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing well. It's important to talk with the confessional

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aspect the conflict, because that was a significant element obviously,

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but the way it's presented, I think is incorrect. And

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even some of the even a lot of the histories

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I like, including when I cite a lot by this

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one British academic, he doesn't understand Calvinism. I mean, there's

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there's some active prejudice when you read Catholic or or

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a Church of England coded writers, I think. But then

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other people who have sort of a secular disposition, they

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just don't they don't understand the faith, you know. I

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mean I run into that a lot. I mean, because

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it's my heritage and I you know, I.

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Speaker 1: Think I'm one of the weirdest Catholics around because I

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understand Calvinism better than I do. I understand Catholicism because

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I actually went to I actually went to school to

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learn Calvinism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, I mean, and that's uh, and I mean,

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don't get me wrong, most of the guys in MI

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Cadre locally or Catholic Clym in Chicago. When I I

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think Katholics are awesome, I don't. I'm ecumenical was fuck,

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you know. I mean, like I I've got mobs on comrades,

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I've got immense respect for I think people know. I

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get a lot of shift for that from simpletons and

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uh zoglings and a sort of other morons who you know,

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aren't on my level. But point being, I I don't

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have some bad feeling towards Catholics. Quite the contrary, and

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to be tooth be told, I don't think most people

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in their lack of understanding of the Reformed Faith comes

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from some kind of hostility or prejudice. I think they

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just don't understand it. And admittedly it is it is

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sort of strange to people who have a, you know,

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a primarily kind of liturgical view of worship. I totally

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get that. I don't take it some kind of wigh

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or something. But because it may, you know, one of

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the reasons why I think it's ill understood is there's

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this kind of a this kind of sense I'm trying

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to transpose the Middle Ages out of the modern period,

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and there's a sense of, oh, well, this was just

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a religious war, that's the wrong way to look at it.

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And church affairs when I'm speaking of the Roman Church

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creeping into politics, particularly the imperial structure and the Holy

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Rown Empire, that was a big problem, you know, I mean, axiomatically,

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there's always a political aspect to institutionalize or ecclesiastical affairs,

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but that but we're we're talking about out what was

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perceived as an active subversion of secular political affairs as

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a kind of power play. And the Jesuits played a

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big role in this, which is really interesting. And we're

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gonna get into all that stuff today and then we'll

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get back to the heart and fast kind of power

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political and military aspect next time. Because the other big, uh,

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sort of a subject within this broader prestige of variables

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is the Swedish intervention, and Sweden was a tremendous military

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power at the time. You know, you've got to look

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at Sweden as a having in part inherited what had

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been the the territorial imperatives of of of the Danes,

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as well as Sweden becoming the local of Scandinavian power,

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a large you know, and this was a very very

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strong constellation of factors in their favor, including mentioned material

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which attended towards tremendous industriousness in all that efforts, Wilian

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engineering and military matters, and you know, a great military aptitude.

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But you know, there was this complex air play in

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terms of religious tensions that did play this positive role.

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You know, the sixteenth century to the preceding decades. One

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of the reasons why the Europeans could effectively mobilize against

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the Turks is because compared to the Middle Ages, this

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early Modern period was far, far less violent. You know,

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the Middle Ages are characterized by emperors, not you know,

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local gentry and uh lesser nobility, but emperor is being

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deposed by vassals. Wholesale mass occurs, sometimes motivated by the

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sectarian imperatives or literal class revolts. That's not just some

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sort of Marxist mythology superimposed over history. But you know,

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matters of faith being bound up with secular disputes over

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legitimate authority and succession they're in That wasn't really something

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characteristic of you know, the sixteenth and early seventeenth century

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at all, you know, and the papacy had a problem,

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you know, because really one of the things they emphasize

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not just for stability, but also to sustain their mandate,

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such that they played a meaningful and enduring role in

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the political order, which again really flowed from the Holy Roman,

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the Holy Roman Empire. There was a primacy placed on organization,

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you know, and the exclusive mandate of the Roman Church

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to interpret the Word of God for all Christians. That

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was really the source of that organizational imperative. So when

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Martin Luther and his followers started trusting stressing the primacy

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of doctrine over the medium of uh the church, you know,

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as the uh as as God's representative on earth, you

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know that that caused a real controversy at all levels

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of political power. That's the way to understand it. This

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wasn't some trivial dispute between theologians or something, as you

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know a lot of these sort of middling university types

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like to present it is. But what's fundamentally important too

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is that, you know, Luther's Reformation, he was quite literally

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looking to reform the church. This was totally different than

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what Calvin had in mind, and Calvin's successors, who were

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even more radical than he was, you know, and really

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what such Lutherans could be said to have been radicalized

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when the Council of Cardinals that was convened, they're trying

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and heal the at trent In from the fifteen forties

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until the fifteen sixties, they were trying to heal the

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emergent sectarian rift. But what ended up happening is they

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came out branding the standard bears the Reformation and those

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who evangelized the Reformist perspective as heretics. You know. Its

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final sort of decree and decision was defining Catholicism really

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as the faith of Europe and this kind of revival

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of the faith within the Holy Roman Empire over within

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Habsburg domains is what they translated to, and devising a

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program quite literally to exterminate heresy through the revival of

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Roman Catholic life, confessional life, but also you know, through

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bringing down the weight of some terrifyingly punitive measures on

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the enemies of the Church, who again had been identified

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with a fairly broad brush by this point, you know,

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one of the uh and this came the way, this

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trickled down sort of to liturgical and identitarian matters, and

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we'll get more into that later, because I don't want

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to get ahead of ourselves, but even things like the Eucharist,

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you know, and the dispute over the meaning of the

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Holy Communion and the Last Supper, because things like that,

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things like communion, there was a significance because the centrality

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of Mass is this collective act of worship that brought

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not just congregational communities together, but brought them together with

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representatives of the Roman Church, you know, the presiding priest.

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You know. Obviously Calvinists in particular revolted against this and

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declared their real presence to be the idea of it,

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to be idolatrous and stuff. But you know, the Consulate

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Trent doubled down on these liturgical aspects and these communitarian

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aspects of worship because that was something that was possible

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through what amount of the statutory means, you know. So

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the Tredentine Mass, if you abided it, that signals subordination

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to the to the Pope, you know, and his infallibility

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and his absolute authority as God's em as aria on earth,

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you know. And this led also to counter Reformation partisans,

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you know, uh, reviving the idea of the Eucharist cult

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and doubling and tripling down on on, you know, belief

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in the real presence as a as a testament of faith.

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And so these corpus Christie processions started popping up, you know,

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encouraged by local bishops and whatnot, you know, where people

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would literally walk behind the parish priest as a testament

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to their you know, commitment. And people who opposed to this,

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even people who otherwise pious, they were very much marked

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out as and sometimes even branded as you know, people

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who were tending towards heretical ideas. So this becomes very political,

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you know, nakedly, so you know, and this also, this

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also is what kind of brought Lutherans and Calvinists together

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in ways that wouldn't have organically happened. And this is

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really interesting because later when the Prussians st I'm talking

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you centuries later, when the Prussian state became Prussia, the

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a unified church emerged, consisting of you know, Catholic or

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Lutheran and Calvinist congregations. And in Prussia that experiment worked,

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which is kind of fascinating, but its roots. I mean,

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by that point there was a discreete Prussian identity and

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people were very self conscious of being German, and that

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emerged also two of the thirty years of war, This

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like self conscious German identity, I mean, local identitarian characteristics remained,

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but this became part of that entire equation. But you know,

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it marking out people with a broad brush on the

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question that Yukaris then some other key doc triantal and

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liturgical aspects, you know, brought people together in common political

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cause that probably otherwise would not have been you know,

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and but it wasn't all punitive in nature. A lot

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of the team let me, let.

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Speaker 1: Me ask you a question, Yeah, do you think it? People

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ran to the other side, Like Calvin famously rejected the

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letters of Ignacious of Antioch, which were used in the

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first couple of centuries against some of the heresies by

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you know, basically that Ignacious was a disciple of John

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the Apostle, and he's arguing that that the I can't

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remember who he was arguing against, but he was saying

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that they deny Christ coming in the Christ coming in

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the body, therefore they denied the Eucharist and you know,

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the body in the Eucharist. And Calvin basically went so

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far as to say those were forgeries those those letters

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that had been I mean, do you think that it

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caused you know, overreaction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, probably in part. I mean I I'll get to

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that in a minute. But at the same time, you know,

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I this this whole, this whole idea that there's this

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politicized institution that is the intermediary between man and the

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Word of God is problematic.

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Speaker 1: And you know, yeah, that's that's that's the last five

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hundred years of history.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. No, and I uh, Calvin's old perspective, and in

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pure reform congregations, the idea is that communion it's a

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it's a commemoration of the Last Supper, and this idea

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that through the blessing by way of a bishop or

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a pre least, you know, the host literally becomes the

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body of Christ. The Calvinist perspective is that that that's

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idolatrous and pagan and arguably even satanic. And I'm not

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I'm not saying that's my perspective. I don't want to

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get into some religious fight with our Catholic brothers and sisters.

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But you know, Kelvin, it was interesting the way that

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Calvin treated the early church fathers because again, and I'll

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get to this in a minute. I want to get

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too far ahead of myself, you know. He he argued

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that predestination is you know, the earliest church fathers. I

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mean this, this is what was the perspective of what

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became the Catholic Church. So Calvin, it's important. On the

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one hand, yeah, he basically rejected the Catholic literay, liturgy

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and the most hostile and condemnatory terms. But the other hand,

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he said, there's not something inherently wrong with the Catholic Church.

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It's that the men who, in his view, hijacked the

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mandate that they had owing to their lineage, going back

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to the you know, literal disciples of the Christ. You know,

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uh pagan and and and and uh quite literally devilish

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things were allowed to subvert, you know what, what's proper

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uh worship. So it's it's not it's not accurate. I mean,

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I know you weren't saying this, but it's not accurate

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to say that Calvin rejected the early Father's outright, I'd

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have to look into the discrete subject matter you're talking about.

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I'm not I'm strong on Bible scholarship. I'm not strong

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on early calvin Is history. Other than the political aspects

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of the regency in Geneva and things like that. But

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I'll try to flash without the best I can, but

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to bring it back to the situation with respect to

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luther and the the evangelical reformers, the the Council at Trent,

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they did try and address some of these problems, you know,

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to assuage the anxieties of lapsed Catholics and you know

242
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people who you know kind of had a softer view

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of the of the Roman Church and the Lutheran camp.

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You know, they they expanded, uh, they expanded the curriculum

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of you know, uh, seminary and education, said priests understood

246
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official doctrine and this tendency of individual priests to stamp

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their own interpretation on and while passing off as church doctrine,

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owing to localized intrigues or owing to you know, minority

249
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viewpoints on scripture and things. You know, they did a

250
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point to sort of homogenize, uh, what was being conveyed

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to congregation at the localized level. And bishops were required

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to live within their diocese, so uh, you know, there

253
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was an understanding that individual congregance, at least informal terms,

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they had access to like the church hierarchy, you know,

255
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and they they they didn't feel like they were just

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receiving you know, dick toss from on high or whatever,

257
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you know. And they did they tried, they did a

258
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lot to try and stamp out corruption too. And there

259
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was a big problem with uh, with priests uh secretly

260
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getting married and uh becoming very rich, you know, because

261
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it's like, okay, so you know, some young priest, you know, uh,

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he secretly marries some nobleman's daughter, you know, because now

263
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only that nobleman, he's got an in with the church,

264
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you know. And this this guy in turn, you know,

265
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he's very wealthy, and he's got a wife and his

266
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whole secret family. I mean that this happened a lot,

267
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you know, uh, and that that became a big problem.

268
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I mean, aside in the fact that I mean it

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makes hash with you know, one's vows and things, and

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that that's completely cynical way of uh you know, uh,

271
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of of abiding one his vocation. But it also was

272
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incredibly corrupting politically. And the modern confessional box, the confession

273
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being a private affair, uh, that came out of these

274
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the tridentine reforms you used to confession used to be

275
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done like before the whole congregation, which obviously you know

276
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that there was a public shaming aspect of that, because

277
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people then you know, use that to you know, try

278
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and exploit the weaknesses of their of their personal rivals

279
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and things. And it also put a lot of people

280
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off a confession because it's you know, properly, it's between

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the congregant and you know the priest as the representative

282
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of the Church, which is God's representative on earth. It's

283
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not supposed to be this confrontation between you know, the

284
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sinner and the congregation. Obviously, you know, the veneration at

285
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Saints became a big deal. That became kind of the

286
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defining mark of Tredentine Catholicism, you know, holding up hious

287
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individuals not just as role models and examples of a

288
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Christian life, but people who were directly, you know, kind

289
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of direct emissaries between you know, congregants in God. And

290
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it's also like local Saints became a big deal, you know.

291
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Uh it Uh. One of the things that the Lutherans

292
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that going for them is uh, they were very very

293
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good at kind of weaving together this understanding of a

294
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Christian life being a very German thing, you know. I

295
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mean that this happened over the course of centuries. But

296
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there's a communitarian aspect. So we through an evangelism, you know,

297
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being the you know, the kind of the kind of

298
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Germanic reputation for truth telling and kind of openness. That's

299
00:24:45,079 --> 00:24:47,160
what it is to be a good Christian, you know.

300
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:53,640
And Pagans and foreigners and heretics, you know, they they

301
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,680
this isn't this isn't coded into them like it is

302
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:01,559
to us, you know. And uh, local dialects, you know,

303
00:25:02,039 --> 00:25:08,359
like Lutheran pastors, they don't they'd sermonize in local dialects,

304
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,440
you know, which was still varied quite a bit, you know,

305
00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:18,480
even among people who spoke a common you know, Germanic language,

306
00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:23,079
you know. So the Catholic parishes, the liturgy remained in Latin,

307
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but other aspects were were performed in the local language,

308
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,279
you know, and a lot they added in a lot

309
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of local customs relating to the you know, the music

310
00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:44,039
that was performed and the songs that accompanied worship, you know,

311
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,400
stuff intended to strengthen stelid dirty and communitarian identity that

312
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drew from Ethnos. You know. They also made a big

313
00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:00,799
deal a big aspect of the Tridentine reforms was Pilgrim,

314
00:26:01,079 --> 00:26:05,119
you know, the one of the oldest shrines in your

315
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,720
There's a shrine at Vinegarden and another at Voldern that

316
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,279
actually I think I think survived into well well into

317
00:26:14,319 --> 00:26:19,000
the modern era. And then there's the Black Madonna somewhere

318
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:26,359
in Poland, which I conver what it's called, but that

319
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,640
that tendency of Orthodox iconography to have metals insinuated into it.

320
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:38,559
And there's a specific class of of icons that depict

321
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,559
the Blessed Virgin holding baby Jesus and she's pointing, and uh,

322
00:26:43,799 --> 00:26:47,319
when the light refracts off the metal, it looks as

323
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:54,279
if it's emanating from her fingertip to illuminate Jesus. And

324
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,079
essentially what one'm supposed to derive from that is that, uh,

325
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:06,000
you know, Mary points the way of Christian piety, and

326
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,000
uh that's uh, that's an Orthodox tendency, but it very

327
00:27:10,039 --> 00:27:15,240
much mirrors the the the the cult of the Saints

328
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,440
and the and the public cult of the Saints that

329
00:27:18,559 --> 00:27:24,119
they came out of this reformist tendency, you know. So

330
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:30,759
uh the uh so, what what I'm getting at is that,

331
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,839
you know, the the the imperial culture and particularly the

332
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:41,960
Hassburg culture. It became it became an extricably bound up

333
00:27:42,079 --> 00:27:52,400
with this sort of Catholic revivalism, you know. And uh

334
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,559
this was dramatically exacerbated by the emergence of the Jesuits,

335
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:04,960
who became very, very powerful around this time. And the

336
00:28:05,039 --> 00:28:08,160
Jesuits were controversial then even among Catholics, and the I

337
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:13,039
mean the remains so today for different reasons. But one

338
00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:15,519
of the reasons when one of the reason why the

339
00:28:15,559 --> 00:28:18,480
Jesuits were a militant order, you know it Mayola was

340
00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:23,599
a soldier and then he he had a vision which

341
00:28:23,759 --> 00:28:30,000
brought him to Christ. And uh, you know, they were

342
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,880
established in fifteen forty by people the Creed, and they

343
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,319
had a clear mission to destroy Protestantism. Well we all

344
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,640
called it a quote epidemic of the soul, you know,

345
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:53,880
and uh this led uh Lutherans and Calvinists alike, they

346
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,839
came to view they came to view that Jesuits, says,

347
00:28:59,559 --> 00:29:04,440
as the hoops vanguard and their mortal enemies, you know.

348
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,880
And that wasn't totally unfounded, you know. Their their job

349
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:16,880
was to displace Protestants and uh, also the route out

350
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,680
Catholics were viewed as being soft on Protestant heresies from

351
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:28,720
position of authority and then where required, uh, you know,

352
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:37,319
enforce Catholic doctrine as part of the tredenting scheme of vitality.

353
00:29:38,119 --> 00:29:42,519
And these tactics became overly political obviously because uh some

354
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:49,519
raquelca truent uh duke or baron or elector you know,

355
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,880
the Jesuit which had target him for removal, and uh

356
00:29:54,799 --> 00:29:59,039
then suddenly, uh the man who replaces him in some

357
00:29:59,079 --> 00:30:03,920
sort of hapsper partisan who uh you know, makes a

358
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:09,119
show of its commitment to uh Trendentine revivalism. You know,

359
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:17,440
you can't you can't extirpate that from you know, a

360
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:27,000
negatively political set of concerns. You know. So this was

361
00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:34,119
the this was the this was sort of the foundation

362
00:30:34,359 --> 00:30:38,000
or the background and the climate that was underway for

363
00:30:38,839 --> 00:30:43,799
you know, decades before the oddset of hostilities, and it

364
00:30:43,839 --> 00:30:47,440
was still going on, you know, by the by the

365
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,359
onset of formal combat. You know. To be clear too,

366
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:53,960
and I'm not sure a lot of people realize this.

367
00:30:54,079 --> 00:31:01,079
You find a lot of loyalists uh propaganda going back centuries,

368
00:31:01,559 --> 00:31:04,359
including well into the twentieth century. You know, during the Troubles,

369
00:31:04,359 --> 00:31:07,680
and Ulster that that singles out the Jesuits as being

370
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:18,599
a particularly sinister cadre within the Catholic Church. That's not

371
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:23,119
odd if you consider the context. For years, even very

372
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:30,880
sort of serious people that weren't prone to extreme cultish

373
00:31:31,319 --> 00:31:35,440
tendencies within when Prostenism, they insisted that Guy Fox was

374
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,920
a Jesuit agent and that the gunpowder plot was what

375
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:45,000
was it basically like a Jesuit operation? You know, I

376
00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:48,759
mean you can I I don't accept that, but it's

377
00:31:48,799 --> 00:31:52,200
not it's not unthinkable or something, or it's not as

378
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,799
crazy as it might sound. People in twenty twenty five,

379
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:02,279
you know, but they uh, you know, and then and

380
00:32:02,319 --> 00:32:04,839
the Jesuits were extreme. Even a lot of arch counter

381
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:12,759
Reformation and counter Enlightenment partisans viewed them with skepticism and

382
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,319
as a potential fifth column, you know. Uh, and they

383
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,920
kind of they kind of became a cult onto themselves,

384
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,839
you know. And obviously too, there was the experience of

385
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,079
the Templars centuries proceeding that was very much on people's minds.

386
00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:35,640
I mean, that's a whole other subject matter. But they

387
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,920
also they had a weird view or a heterodox view,

388
00:32:39,079 --> 00:32:41,680
and they were all as confessors one of the things

389
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,759
that Jesuits to do. They'd approached princes who they felt

390
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,599
were making too many concessions to Protestants or who were

391
00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:56,319
insufficiently enthusiastic about abiding the Tredentine reforms, and they'd claim

392
00:32:56,559 --> 00:33:01,359
in their role as confessor that princes are uniquely susceptible

393
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:07,079
to being tempted by the devil, and they can be deceived,

394
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,400
you know, to granting concessions to heretics, you know, and

395
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,559
if these concessions were politically necessary in the short term.

396
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,880
The Jesuit view is that God would forgive the prince

397
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,519
in question so long as he confessed that he'd been deceived,

398
00:33:24,079 --> 00:33:28,279
you know, a tone for it, and promised that he'd

399
00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:34,400
revoke these concessions at first opportunity or first expedient moment,

400
00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:37,200
and then actually followed through it that you know, his

401
00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:42,519
salvation was assured. And I mean, that's that's really strange.

402
00:33:42,599 --> 00:33:45,519
You know, that that goes beyond you know, polite fictions

403
00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:51,640
or whatever. To stead of assuage the concerns of the

404
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,640
pious or the righteous, you know, to accept a less

405
00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,880
than to accept the noble who doesn't live up to

406
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:08,039
the to his office, you know, there's something that that

407
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:13,119
there's something about that that doesn't seem correct. You know,

408
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:21,360
this this uh, this priestly order that had substantial military power,

409
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:29,000
that's going around basically taking on a role that should

410
00:34:29,039 --> 00:34:33,679
be reserved for the pope frankly, you know, so that

411
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,639
this was a this was a problem again even for

412
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,320
a lot of Catholics. It wasn't the gesuit terms of

413
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,360
some boogeyman that was confedgularly about a Protestant like you know,

414
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:52,079
the fever dreams of Protestant radicals or something. You know

415
00:34:52,519 --> 00:35:02,199
that uh, and that's and that's one of this also

416
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:08,679
played into the ambitions of Lutherans because one of the ironically,

417
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:15,960
i mean not so ironically, if you know the relevant

418
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,280
history and if you know something about the competing theological perspectives,

419
00:35:21,639 --> 00:35:25,840
it was this kind of heterotoxy within the Roman Catholic Church,

420
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,519
including within its hierarchy. That was one of the big

421
00:35:32,039 --> 00:35:38,920
objections that Lutherans had. You know, Lutheran in a large measure,

422
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,039
wanted to reform existing structures. He didn't want to burn

423
00:35:42,159 --> 00:35:45,800
down the Roman Catholic Church and create something totally new.

424
00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:50,239
You know. One of his big issues was that the

425
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:58,000
pope you know, these doctrines are inconsistent from one prelate

426
00:35:58,079 --> 00:36:01,719
to the next and from one succession to the next.

427
00:36:02,599 --> 00:36:06,719
And you've got factions within the Roman Church like the Jesuits,

428
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,440
who don't seem to be bound by the centrality of doctrine,

429
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:20,079
but are able to present their own interpretations with you know,

430
00:36:20,119 --> 00:36:25,480
while invoking something approaching their own infallibility, you know, which

431
00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:33,159
is incredibly uh problematic, you know, for any believing Catholic

432
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:44,559
you know, not just for Lutheran reformers, but uh, you know,

433
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:52,320
and that's too Uh. Lutherans didn't abide sell the Scripture

434
00:36:55,360 --> 00:37:00,400
like Calvinists do, but luther did view scripture is the

435
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:08,320
source of all truth, you know, and misinterpretation of Scripture

436
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:16,119
by the papacy is catastrophic, you know. And uh, that's

437
00:37:16,159 --> 00:37:23,920
always gotta be the metric by which you know, uh,

438
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:35,599
papal decision making is measured the uh and that's really

439
00:37:35,639 --> 00:37:43,119
the uh you know of course too, I mean that

440
00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:47,920
that takes on a political function because if you if

441
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:55,239
you reduce the role of priest as any mediary, you know,

442
00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:03,119
that diminishes the power of the Vatican to h impact

443
00:38:03,119 --> 00:38:10,800
the body politic in ways beyond those rudimentary, you know,

444
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,559
and then so and Luther also he wanted to reduce

445
00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:18,719
the sacraments to baptism, baptism and the Eucharist, you know.

446
00:38:19,639 --> 00:38:24,159
He didn't object to the doctrine of real presence like

447
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:31,760
the Calvinists did, but you know, in the view of

448
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,320
a believing Catholics, he gutted the liturgy, you know. And

449
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,920
on the one hand, he increased late participation in worship

450
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:53,800
while selectively excluding aspects of Christian practice that you know,

451
00:38:53,920 --> 00:39:01,599
would insinuate priests into the congregate in a leadership role,

452
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,800
you know. And this was viewed as very cynical by

453
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,679
his enemies and by a power play, and in part

454
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,400
I think that it was. You know.

455
00:39:19,039 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 1: He also he wrote his own Catechism.

456
00:39:22,559 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean yeah, I mean obviously, yeah,

457
00:39:25,559 --> 00:39:28,039
I mean obviously I'm not gonna sit here and say

458
00:39:28,079 --> 00:39:30,880
that I find Lutheranism to be its own thing. I mean,

459
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,400
it's not just I mean, obviously I'm sure that's colored

460
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,800
by my own confessional heritage, but it you know. But

461
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:42,920
at the same time, there is something too, there is

462
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,559
it's improper for people to view Lutheranism as some middle

463
00:39:46,599 --> 00:39:52,960
ground between Roman Catholicism, and you know, Calvinism and dissenters

464
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,320
because it's not that and it's got a totally different

465
00:39:56,559 --> 00:40:07,960
heritage intellectually. But you know, Luther did draw a distinction

466
00:40:08,159 --> 00:40:19,920
between salvation and sanctification and justification for salvation, you know,

467
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,679
and he reputed this idea that every man and woman

468
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,199
is trapped in this cycle of sin and repentance and

469
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:36,039
contrition and confession. There are confessional Lutherans, but that it's

470
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,480
it has a different function than in the Roman Church generally,

471
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:47,599
you know, and uh, there's an emphasis on Christian living,

472
00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:59,000
you know, rather than constant preparation for a good death

473
00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:06,000
or this sort of constant uh effort to balance the

474
00:41:06,079 --> 00:41:16,880
proverbial scales, you know, and that Uh, but it's not

475
00:41:17,119 --> 00:41:26,360
nearly as uncompromising as you know, the Calvinists as Calvinists metaphysics,

476
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,440
I mean, let me put it that way in soo teryology,

477
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,719
you know. But I, like I said, I don't it's

478
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,519
it's a very different tendency. I mean, that's why at

479
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:46,239
the top of the hour I made the point that these, uh,

480
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:52,239
the unification at congregational level of of Lutherans and Calvinists

481
00:41:52,280 --> 00:42:00,320
and in Prussia is pretty remarkable you know, the uh,

482
00:42:01,039 --> 00:42:05,719
but it also too the there was a basic fragmentation

483
00:42:07,199 --> 00:42:16,440
within the Holy Roman Empire. And again there's always going

484
00:42:16,519 --> 00:42:20,480
to be a call for churchmen to try and mitigate

485
00:42:20,679 --> 00:42:26,719
these kinds of divisions, particularly when crisis appears to be

486
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:33,480
a mergent you know, that's perennial. So even I mean,

487
00:42:33,519 --> 00:42:36,880
I I don't want to spin this off into an

488
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:44,800
abstract discussion of political theory and political ontology. I accept

489
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:49,440
the postulate that all politics is conceptually theological, but in

490
00:42:49,519 --> 00:42:54,199
terms of literal theology, it's it's inevitable that in a

491
00:42:54,320 --> 00:43:05,000
situation or where there's a fragmentation of sovereign authority and

492
00:43:05,079 --> 00:43:10,679
the seat of that authority upon which the entire political

493
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,119
culture is based and ethical as well as structural terms,

494
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:24,920
a sort of revivalist sensibility is there's always going to

495
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:30,400
be pressure on churchmen in order to facilitate that, and

496
00:43:30,519 --> 00:43:35,480
in turn, that's always going to cause adherence to the

497
00:43:35,519 --> 00:43:44,079
minority perspective to feel that they're being, in the most

498
00:43:45,519 --> 00:43:50,840
general possible terms, shut out the political processes and the

499
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:58,280
most severe that they're about to be programmed by the majority. Okay,

500
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:09,159
you know, and this also compromised me there's credibility with

501
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:15,679
Calvinists because the Lutherans were constantly and Luther himself was

502
00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:20,039
constantly joined this distinction worldly in political matters, you know,

503
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,039
but then he was he was he was insinuating himself

504
00:44:26,679 --> 00:44:33,679
into a ecclesiastical affairs for negatively political reasons. You know,

505
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,119
you can't have it both ways. I don't want to.

506
00:44:35,119 --> 00:44:36,960
I don't want to sound like I'm trashing Lutherans. And

507
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,039
I'm trying to be objective on this, and you know,

508
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:47,360
and and and uh, you know, treat these parties factions equally,

509
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,960
you know. I it's just to be clear. I don't

510
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:56,480
want people to get the wrong idea, you know. And

511
00:44:56,599 --> 00:45:02,159
Luther also one of the things that's interesting and one

512
00:45:02,159 --> 00:45:12,880
of the things that did uh, Luther himself and most

513
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:21,719
of the early Lutheran authorities within the Holy Roman Empire,

514
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:27,800
they were basically honest. There wasn't a corruption problem, and

515
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:33,920
the Roman church lands that were appropriated, it wasn't a

516
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:42,599
situation like in England, you know, the UH, it wasn't

517
00:45:42,599 --> 00:45:45,360
a question like local lords couldn't just help themselves to

518
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,760
these resources. You know, it went to fund uh Lutheran

519
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,760
institutions that trained clergy. It went to quite literally build

520
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,519
churches and give alms to the poor, and that's it.

521
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:04,119
You know, this change later on for the worst. But

522
00:46:07,039 --> 00:46:11,519
I for people make the case that you know, uh,

523
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,800
there was this looting underway by by Lutherans of of

524
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,360
church wealth and that that's just not true, you know,

525
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:26,800
And that's I think I think that's important to acknowledge that, uh,

526
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,840
you know, I mean the contrasting that with Henry the

527
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:35,239
a who Uh you know, the monastic land was quite

528
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:40,079
literally appropriated and and and sold off to you know,

529
00:46:40,159 --> 00:46:45,440
to satisfy you know, uh state debts and expenditures and things,

530
00:46:45,679 --> 00:46:55,760
you know, just unconsortable stuff. You know that Uh, there's

531
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,000
not nothing, nothing comfortable like that happened within the the

532
00:46:59,119 --> 00:47:10,960
Lutheran hierarchy. And uh famously there was Emperor Charles the

533
00:47:11,079 --> 00:47:17,480
Fifth when the doctrinal controversy was really heating up and

534
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:33,400
you know, the hostility to Lutheranism was approaching Zenith. Charles

535
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,960
took the sponsoring meetings between theologians and then not only

536
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,960
does not accomplish anything, but it led to it led

537
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,719
to the Catholics accusing the the Lutherans of stealing church

538
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:49,159
property and and and enriching themselves and fermenting sedition among

539
00:47:49,199 --> 00:47:52,119
Catholic subjects, or attempting to and basically in order to

540
00:47:52,159 --> 00:47:55,119
steal from the church, you know. And that's that's something

541
00:47:55,159 --> 00:48:01,000
you see. It's that still comes up in some and

542
00:48:01,159 --> 00:48:03,639
in some Catholic histories. And I mean, don't get me wrong,

543
00:48:03,639 --> 00:48:09,119
I understand people being protective of their confessional heritage, you know,

544
00:48:09,119 --> 00:48:12,000
I've I've written extensively on that. But it's it's not

545
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,440
it's not it's not accurate. This wasn't a looting operation,

546
00:48:17,639 --> 00:48:20,559
you know, and suggesting it is is is just dishonest.

547
00:48:20,639 --> 00:48:32,039
But briefly, ill I mean, at least need to in

548
00:48:32,119 --> 00:48:36,840
part cover the confessional aspect of another episode because our

549
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:44,159
time is getting short. But to understand the Calvinist perspective

550
00:48:44,199 --> 00:48:51,199
on Lutheranism, as you mentioned, the Book of concord or

551
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,480
the Concordia or I think in America most most practicing

552
00:48:55,519 --> 00:49:03,360
Lutherans are fruitless. The Lutheran Confessions, that's the Lutheran doctrinal

553
00:49:04,159 --> 00:49:08,000
standard that's viewed as authoritative, authoritative, it's the it's the

554
00:49:08,079 --> 00:49:14,760
Credle Documents of the Evangelical Lutheran Church. I believe that

555
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,519
was published in Dresden in fifteen eighty. Dresden is the

556
00:49:19,599 --> 00:49:23,440
seed of Lutheranism in some basic ways. And uh it

557
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,000
was published on the anniversary of the Augsburg Confession to Charals,

558
00:49:27,039 --> 00:49:33,760
the fifth of the Diet of Augsburg. I think the

559
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:38,280
authoritative Latin edition was published in the fifteen eighties in Leipzig,

560
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,800
but the original document was published in Dresden. And uh,

561
00:49:43,079 --> 00:49:47,440
those who accept it, it's they they believe it to

562
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,159
be a faithful exposition of the Bible, you know, and

563
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:57,719
the the meaning of the holy scriptures which are set

564
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,000
forth in in in the CONCORDI. As you know, the

565
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:08,159
Scripture is the sole divine source of all Christian doctrine.

566
00:50:11,039 --> 00:50:16,760
The uh dissenters, you know, Calvinists, they claimed that this

567
00:50:17,079 --> 00:50:21,400
was not any different than they they called it the

568
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,239
Book of Discord. They think they were being funny, and

569
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:29,239
that is kind of funny. What no disrespect anybody's urgage.

570
00:50:30,119 --> 00:50:34,559
But uh, the Calvinists claimed and that this was an

571
00:50:34,559 --> 00:50:37,800
imposition of Orthodoxy that was not any different than you know,

572
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:46,360
what what what the Roman Church did? You know? So

573
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,320
the Calvinists rallying cry was for a quote second Reformation,

574
00:50:53,119 --> 00:51:02,519
you know, and uh, Calvinism and the Holy Roman Empire.

575
00:51:04,199 --> 00:51:05,639
It was different than what it took root in the

576
00:51:05,679 --> 00:51:08,079
rest of Europe. And to be clear, Calvinism is interesting

577
00:51:08,119 --> 00:51:10,800
and one of the reasons why I talked about the

578
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:15,199
Calvinist diaspra in places like Ulster, in places like America,

579
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:20,360
you know, in places like Australia and New Zealand, Calvinists

580
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:25,199
weren't and aren't a majority on the ground anywhere in Europe.

581
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,519
And on the one hand, this led to a kind

582
00:51:28,519 --> 00:51:33,440
of deep Pietism that was community based and tended to

583
00:51:33,519 --> 00:51:39,440
strongly reinforce ethnic identity. But there wasn't. Calvinists were essentially

584
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:50,039
the minority everywhere they were, you know, and generally it

585
00:51:50,119 --> 00:51:57,000
was common people. And uh, Calvinism appealed lot to yeomanry.

586
00:51:57,119 --> 00:51:58,920
That's one of the reasons took root in Prussia and

587
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,159
the way it did, I believe. But in the Empire

588
00:52:02,199 --> 00:52:06,440
and the Hily Roman Empire, Calvinism was basically led by

589
00:52:06,519 --> 00:52:11,760
princes and nobles, and that's that's one of the reasons

590
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:20,079
why they developed disproportionate power in military terms in the

591
00:52:20,119 --> 00:52:25,000
Thirty Years War, you know. And uh, this is one

592
00:52:25,039 --> 00:52:28,360
of the reasons why it was these noble types who

593
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:34,000
are pious Calvinists. The term reform came from them because Calvinists,

594
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,760
the term Calvinist it had, it had connotations and illegality

595
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:44,760
and and outlaw sensibilities. And because their view was that

596
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:51,199
we need a second Reformation to eradicate the remnants of

597
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:55,519
what they call papist superstition. That's that's why they're called

598
00:52:55,599 --> 00:52:58,920
and we're called reform, you know, because we're the standard

599
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,320
bearers or they're the standard beers of you know, the

600
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:06,119
the the the Second Reformation, you know, that's going to

601
00:53:06,199 --> 00:53:14,039
bring that, that's that that's gonna eradicate uh idolatrous practices

602
00:53:14,199 --> 00:53:19,719
that deviate from you know, the the Word of God,

603
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,519
which is which is the only correct uh exposition of

604
00:53:23,519 --> 00:53:33,039
of Christian doctrine. You know, So this uh you know,

605
00:53:33,079 --> 00:53:41,320
and again the uh Calvinists went as far, you know,

606
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:45,800
like I said, I they reviewed almost like the Taliban.

607
00:53:46,159 --> 00:53:49,320
And I'm not that I'm not trying to be funny.

608
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:54,719
I mean they they there was instances of Calvinist burning

609
00:53:54,760 --> 00:54:02,760
and destroying icons. You know, they banished vestments and the

610
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:12,440
high altar from churches. Calvinist uh zealous they'd often uh

611
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:17,360
smashed paintings and sculptures, you know, to prove that cultic

612
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:23,320
objects and icons are powerless. Ministers would dress, uh, they

613
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:28,239
do their dressed like common people or like professors, you know.

614
00:54:28,679 --> 00:54:37,199
And uh, their notion was of a priesthood, of universal

615
00:54:37,199 --> 00:54:42,559
priesthood of congregants, you know, any man who can, like

616
00:54:42,639 --> 00:54:47,320
any man who's literate and who's pious, you know, and

617
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:51,400
who can learn scripture, you know, can convey the truth

618
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,119
of the Word of God to his fellow man and woman.

619
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,719
You know, there's not that there's not some priests, the

620
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:06,039
inner mediary you know, between Christ and his congregation, you know.

621
00:55:06,199 --> 00:55:09,760
And they made a big deal, you know again, they

622
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,679
abhorred the notion of the of the real presence and

623
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,559
this this had become like we talked about a moment

624
00:55:15,559 --> 00:55:26,719
ago a an incredibly uh divisive subject matter, you know,

625
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:37,199
and among other things, uh to Calvinists, and uh you

626
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:39,400
know this this comes as no surprise if you've read

627
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:45,199
the Institutes of the Christian Religion, among other things, you know,

628
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:49,239
the I the idea of the body of Christ being

629
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:54,559
consumed by a human organism and turned into excrement through

630
00:55:54,559 --> 00:56:01,639
the digestive system of a physical body. That's calvin has

631
00:56:01,639 --> 00:56:05,639
found that utterly unacceptable for people to suggest, you know.

632
00:56:07,199 --> 00:56:10,800
So there was Calvin's congregations that went as far as

633
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:17,360
to ban a wine from communion observances, replacing it with beer,

634
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,360
to make it clear that this is a commemorative event.

635
00:56:21,039 --> 00:56:24,159
The real presence is is a is a real tesque lie.

636
00:56:25,639 --> 00:56:33,119
You know, it's really interesting. But I mean, I think so,

637
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,840
you know, I mean, I the significance that this these

638
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:44,280
things take on is fascinating. Now probably now calvin Is

639
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:56,360
soteriology obviously is the most controversial point of belief, I

640
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:02,119
think for a lot of people. Calvin, again, he didn't

641
00:57:02,159 --> 00:57:06,159
say that the Cadolic Church itself is is just a

642
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:10,400
boring from inception. There were aspects of Cadlic ideas that

643
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,960
he said worth correct, and his view is that the

644
00:57:13,559 --> 00:57:17,280
Roman Church had had essentially been hijacked and had fallen

645
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:22,400
into heresy. You know, the early the early church fathers,

646
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:28,519
they condemned the idea that you know, there was any

647
00:57:28,599 --> 00:57:37,039
path of salvation other than you know, other than other

648
00:57:37,079 --> 00:57:43,199
other than predestination, you know, the idea that God could

649
00:57:43,239 --> 00:57:49,840
not know of of somebody's uh salvation. Whether this could

650
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:58,920
be some temporally contingent question based on willful acts and works.

651
00:58:00,039 --> 00:58:03,559
You know, it was very clear. I mean, Saint Augustine

652
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:11,400
argued that God alone determined salvation, you know, and the

653
00:58:11,519 --> 00:58:16,840
fortunes of both the elect and the reprobate being determined

654
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:22,639
by God alone. And God exists outside of any you know,

655
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:29,079
temporal or physical or geometric configuration or boundary. This isn't

656
00:58:29,119 --> 00:58:32,599
something that Calvin just came up with, owing to, you know,

657
00:58:36,039 --> 00:58:46,400
owing to a fascination of the early modern cultures, you know,

658
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:53,400
academic culture with formal logic and things, you know. And yeah,

659
00:58:53,519 --> 00:59:02,519
your point, Calvin selectively redacted authorities from the same epoch

660
00:59:02,599 --> 00:59:07,840
that he considered to not be congruous with his own interpretation.

661
00:59:08,079 --> 00:59:10,880
And that needs to be said too. Like I said,

662
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,920
I can't speak to the specific specific subject matter that

663
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:18,920
you raise because I haven't researched it in depth. But yeah,

664
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:26,960
that needs to be said. But yeah, that's I'm gonna

665
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:31,719
stop here, because uh, I don't want to spin off

666
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:40,119
into a whole other exposition that you know, is requires

667
00:59:40,119 --> 00:59:41,960
more attention than the next few minutes a little while.

668
00:59:42,039 --> 00:59:45,719
But yeah, I I hope this, I hope nobody found

669
00:59:45,719 --> 00:59:51,079
this unbearably dull. It's important to understand the sectarian aspect.

670
00:59:51,639 --> 00:59:57,760
What's really interesting is, uh, how reformed people, particularly people

671
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:07,679
fleeing uh the Inquisition related to Sunny Moslims and Ottoman

672
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:14,719
terror stories. I think that's really interesting. There's a there's

673
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:23,880
a peculiar confessional dialogue between Soonies and reformed that I

674
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,880
think is something that's not discussed enough. But yeah, that's

675
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,960
all I got. No, that was great.

676
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:35,079
Speaker 1: I mean I I followed it all because I mean

677
01:00:35,239 --> 01:00:36,599
that's what I had to learn.

678
01:00:37,079 --> 01:00:40,719
Speaker 2: Well, No, you're you're a knowledgeable dude. And I.

679
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:43,639
Speaker 1: I think it's funny that you went to a cath

680
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,719
You went to a Catholic school, and I went for

681
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,239
higher ed and I went to a Calvinist school.

682
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:53,679
Speaker 2: For No, that's uh, I went to a Jesuit school too,

683
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:55,840
like on top of it, and I that that was

684
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:57,760
interesting man, Like, I know, I had a great time

685
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:04,840
at Leola. And I I mean a guy, uh, Tom Engeman,

686
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:08,159
he was my political theory professor, and he was a

687
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,599
speaking a Lutherans. He was a Lutheran guy, and uh

688
01:01:11,639 --> 01:01:17,039
he butted heads very much with the Jesuit administration, but

689
01:01:17,159 --> 01:01:20,679
he you know, he really schooled me in in political

690
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:24,599
theory in a way that was invaluable and really guided

691
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:27,440
my thinking in life. But no, all it was a

692
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:31,320
great institution, man. I I look back very finally in

693
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:31,920
my time there.

694
01:01:34,199 --> 01:01:38,039
Speaker 1: All right, we'll pick up part four the next time,

695
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,400
and I will encourage everybody to go over to Thomas's

696
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:45,800
substack real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com,

697
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:50,440
and you can basically connect to him from uh from

698
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:54,320
there to anywhere else he is and uh, go and

699
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:58,639
support Thomas. He's finishing up season three of Mind Phaser,

700
01:01:58,719 --> 01:02:03,480
his podcast, and and and I think, what do you

701
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,760
you'll release? Uh? Do you release to the public season

702
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:08,840
two at the end of this or how do you

703
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:09,119
do that?

704
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 2: No? What I do is when when I release a

705
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:15,119
new season, I I the previous season. You can get

706
01:02:15,119 --> 01:02:18,360
season one and two for free like in their entirety.

707
01:02:18,599 --> 01:02:21,400
When I begin season four, season three, is I going

708
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,639
to remove that from behind the paywall and just it's

709
01:02:23,679 --> 01:02:26,079
only gonna be the current season episodes that are behind

710
01:02:26,079 --> 01:02:28,360
the paywall. That's how we do it.

711
01:02:28,559 --> 01:02:32,239
Speaker 1: Just go support Thomas. It's five bucks a month. Yeah,

712
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:36,199
you can do it. It's definitely worth it. But Thomas,

713
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,719
un till the next time, Thank you very much. Appreciate

714
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:39,320
it always.

715
01:02:39,599 --> 01:02:42,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you man. Very Christmas, everybody.

716
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:44,519
Speaker 1: Merry Christmas everyone,