Speaker 1: Welcome back to this idea was to watch this show.
Speaker 2: I don't know, some some nebulous person that we all
Speaker 2: know somehow suggested it to us.
Speaker 1: And it was not me.
Speaker 3: It was somebody nebulous like Avaitar Avatar esque, like someone.
Speaker 1: Who is.
Speaker 4: Five in the morning on a Sunday. When we just
Speaker 4: rolled our clocks forward, we got a bright eyed bunch
Speaker 4: of tails. We're gonna watch Babylon five today. It's gonna
Speaker 4: be so fun. Let's kick off a nice relaxing Sunday
Speaker 4: with an episode of my favorite show.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I guess they got the poker.
Speaker 6: Anyway, what were you saying, Jenny.
Speaker 2: I'm saying we are Babylon We are the podcast Last
Speaker 2: Reaction crew that is watching a breaking down episodes of
Speaker 2: Babylon five. And we just watched the upbeat, peppy happy
Speaker 2: episode Confessions and Lamentations.
Speaker 1: Jenny, just like.
Speaker 2: R.
Speaker 1: My name is Jenny, and.
Speaker 2: I'm a huge fan of this show and I've watched
Speaker 2: it through multiple times and it's somehow still made me cry.
Speaker 3: My name is Jennim, a screenwriter and a showrunner. I
Speaker 3: watched the show back in the day and I am
Speaker 3: rewatching it now.
Speaker 4: I'm Gus. I'm an actor. I'm watching this for the
Speaker 4: first time. I've accidentally shished an ess in there, and
Speaker 4: I decided to commit to the bit.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 5: I'm Ali and I have permanent beef with JMS.
Speaker 4: The Babylon Podcast was our last best hope for a
Speaker 4: deep dive, a self contained discussion for hosts, strong located
Speaker 4: in the neutral territory of the Zokolow, a place of
Speaker 4: commentary and analysis for two veterans and two newcomers, a
Speaker 4: shining beacon of fandom, all alone in the streaming void.
Speaker 4: It was the dawn of the streaming age, the year
Speaker 4: the great theories came upon us. All this is the
Speaker 4: story of Babylon. The year is twenty twenty six. The
Speaker 4: place wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: That JMS was the person who wrote this episode. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it was directed by Kevin G.
Speaker 1: Drenmon Nomen.
Speaker 7: I've beef with him as well, Kremens as well.
Speaker 3: Cremon.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that your day is right. That sounds like a thread.
Speaker 5: I just mean until a confrontation.
Speaker 4: I bet he's dead too. Every time we say something
Speaker 4: out of pocket like this, it turns out the person's dead.
Speaker 2: I actually don't know. I'm I realized I didn't look
Speaker 2: him up ahead of time. He's directed thus far one
Speaker 2: previous episode.
Speaker 5: I hope he's he's alive and well and happy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, yes he is, Yes, Jesus. He was a
Speaker 3: second second unit director and the Star Trek motion Picture.
Speaker 4: Oh okay, that's a beautiful shot.
Speaker 2: We'll just mention this because otherwise I will forget and
Speaker 2: people will be in the comments all about it. Jim Norton,
Speaker 2: the voice of the Mark at Doctor Doctor Lasart. Did
Speaker 2: you reckon? He's been on the show before.
Speaker 5: Okay, I thought so. His voice sounded really familiar.
Speaker 2: He was the he was the ombuds, oh, the ouds many.
Speaker 4: All right single, it was the judge.
Speaker 1: He was the judging episode.
Speaker 4: Extorted the guy in front of the the judge was sure,
Speaker 4: is too bad. We can't prove this guy did extortion.
Speaker 5: And he was the giant.
Speaker 4: Yeah okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: He was so and he has an amazing voice.
Speaker 2: I don't remember his voice out so much in in
Speaker 2: that episode, but in as a market.
Speaker 7: Didn't get a lot of lines, all right, And I
Speaker 7: think they're also very distracted by the extortion bit.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna also just say yes, I'm going to say that. Okay,
Speaker 3: so the choice of not having nostrils, which is interesting
Speaker 3: for species that was dying from an airborne disease. Let's
Speaker 3: just like, I don't know how they breathe in I'm
Speaker 3: sure they have like you know, spiritual sphracles or something like, yeah,
Speaker 3: spiracles are killed something. But but I that poor child,
Speaker 3: that poor child and that prosthetic, like you could hear
Speaker 3: her just be like, yeah, I can't breathe. I like
Speaker 3: have it like like her lips the whole time, because
Speaker 3: she was like, please tell me she was only in
Speaker 3: prosthetics for twenty five minutes. Of course she sat through
Speaker 3: seven hours, so no, they shot all of her shit
Speaker 3: on one day probably, but like probably just felt so bad.
Speaker 3: She was like to len O case have the speech.
Speaker 5: Please, was like, I heard this speech, girl.
Speaker 3: It's not going to be hard to pass out.
Speaker 4: I did notice that every markab always had their mouth open.
Speaker 3: Yeah they did.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that makes sense.
Speaker 2: I can't breathe, I know, because they have no nostrils.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yea.
Speaker 2: I talk like it's a I mean it's a very
Speaker 2: dark episode. Obviously they all die, but they did talk
Speaker 2: about having like a funeral for all the Markab costumes
Speaker 2: because as you noted, like the markb were in the
Speaker 2: last episode, the Mark Hab had been mentioned over and over. Ye,
Speaker 2: and they've been in the background, They've been like in
Speaker 2: council meetings. At one point, Doctor Steve was drinking juice
Speaker 2: and reference that it was market like they've been a
Speaker 2: part of the show. Oh yeah, yep, he was drinking
Speaker 2: a Mark Cab juice with his dad.
Speaker 4: There's a real time reference I want to make, but
Speaker 4: it's a late book spoiler, so I won't, Okay.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, yeah, I know what
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, so thoughts on this up, just general thoughts before
Speaker 2: we get into the meet very sad.
Speaker 7: It feels and we've talked about this already, but it
Speaker 7: feels definitely like a reflection on the AIDS crisis to me. Yeah,
Speaker 7: with the immorality, yeah, but like I mean just in
Speaker 7: terms of like shit that had gone on, you know.
Speaker 2: And the time that the show is happening. He does
Speaker 2: say in the jams, like I didn't say this was
Speaker 2: about AIDS. I think that was to deflect from people
Speaker 2: being like you're calling us all callous people who don't care.
Speaker 1: It's like good, it's just just the show.
Speaker 3: And I'm looking because it's funny because I don't actually
Speaker 3: yet he talked to people without the CDC like as
Speaker 3: well while he was doing this. And so I'll just
Speaker 3: give a quick background on honovirus. So this is two
Speaker 3: years after the honovirus outbreak in the Four Corners and
Speaker 3: so the hantavirus was a virus that originated in Asia
Speaker 3: that they didn't in the Haunted Valley and then they
Speaker 3: had not seen it in this country. And it also
Speaker 3: had not behaved in the same way. And it is airborne,
Speaker 3: but it is transmitted. What they didn't know at the
Speaker 3: beginning was whether or not it was transmitted from human
Speaker 3: to human. But it is transmitted airborne, and it's transmitted
Speaker 3: actually off it comes from the vector is a flea.
Speaker 3: The flea gets on mostly mice, mostly dear mice Paramiscus miniculatas,
Speaker 3: and they maniiculada and they and then the poop from
Speaker 3: the mice carries it. So if you sweep up mouth boom,
Speaker 3: it gets in the air and you can breathe it in.
Speaker 3: So there was a big outbreak in the Four Corners
Speaker 3: region in the summer of nineteen ninety three and then
Speaker 3: they thought it was contained to this region, and it
Speaker 3: was like it had been a Native American ceremony, so
Speaker 3: there was like dancing and kicking up dust, and so
Speaker 3: it was a really big deal and a lot of
Speaker 3: people died very quickly, and they didn't know much about it,
Speaker 3: but they thought it was contained here. And then the
Speaker 3: first case outside was in Mammoth Lakes and it was
Speaker 3: a friend of mine. And it works very quickly, and
Speaker 3: it incubates for like six weeks and then with no
Speaker 3: symptoms whatsoever, and then when it hits, it hits, it
Speaker 3: hits like that. So I saw her on Saturday night.
Speaker 3: We went dancing. Tuesday night, she said, hey, I'm not
Speaker 3: going to come. We always danced on Tuesdays and Saturdays,
Speaker 3: we went country dancing. And on Tuesday night she called
Speaker 3: and she was like, I feel like I got a cold.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to come tonight because I don't want
Speaker 3: to give you guys a cold. She stayed home Tuesday
Speaker 3: night and then by Friday, by Thursday, she was so
Speaker 3: sick we thought it was advanced pneumonia. And she was
Speaker 3: met backed up by a helicopter to Reno, which was
Speaker 3: the closest hospital to where we were, and by Friday
Speaker 3: at noon, she was dead. It destroys all of the blood,
Speaker 3: like all of the vessels and your like, your lungs
Speaker 3: just like all the vessels just explode and the philip
Speaker 3: the food and it's yeah, and it's really And then
Speaker 3: at the time, we still didn't know how it was
Speaker 3: transmitted exactly, or if it could be transmitted person to person.
Speaker 3: So CDC came in and quarantined us all and took
Speaker 3: blood tests of everybody who worked with her and lived
Speaker 3: with her. They trapped mice at her field site. They
Speaker 3: trapped mice at the place she was living. Then she
Speaker 3: had lived in my room earlier in the summer. They
Speaker 3: trapped mice from our area. Turns out the mice in
Speaker 3: my bedroom or the mice that probably gave it to her.
Speaker 3: And so like we were all, oh my god, quarantined
Speaker 3: and tested and like had to wait to find out
Speaker 3: before we could leave. I mean we were. We actually
Speaker 3: weren't quarantined for that long because they were starting at
Speaker 3: that point to figure out that they were quite sure
Speaker 3: it couldn't be transmissible between people, but we weren't really
Speaker 3: sure in the beginning, and it was really crazy and
Speaker 3: so just like so the uncertainty of this, and like
Speaker 3: this was definitely influenced by that uncertainty that like it's
Speaker 3: a new thing, we don't know what it is. It
Speaker 3: acts really quickly, It like shuts down your whole body immediately.
Speaker 3: Like I was like that sounds familiar. I feel like
Speaker 3: this is you know, And so in honovirus, I mean
Speaker 3: like there was another case later that summer, a couple
Speaker 3: more later that summer, and then you know there have
Speaker 3: been continued to be cases over the years, so you know,
Speaker 3: but not not a ton. And they also, you know,
Speaker 3: they can recognize it faster because when when with gene
Speaker 3: they didn't they didn't identify it as hanavirus until after
Speaker 3: she died because it was so fast. I mean they
Speaker 3: might have had an inkling, but it was like it
Speaker 3: was just too late.
Speaker 1: It was too late.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's a really really fast, crazy thing that
Speaker 3: they didn't know about either. So I was like, oh yeah,
Speaker 3: because they were like and CDC was brought in because
Speaker 3: they were like, is it's going to be some massive epidemic. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And then the movie Outbreak came out like two years later,
Speaker 3: which was kind of based on that as well.
Speaker 5: So sorry.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was it was pretty It was pretty bad.
Speaker 3: I remember sitting and watching Outbreak and like I think
Speaker 3: it was like sort of my first anxiety, Like I
Speaker 3: didn't under like I was watching Outbreak in the theater
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, I was like heaving and
Speaker 3: sobbing and unable to breathe. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: apparently trauma, trauma, apparently over this. I'm not past this.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever think can yeah.
Speaker 7: Like I mean, there are just things that's there are
Speaker 7: just things that let's stay.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it was you know, I mean like it
Speaker 3: was also like this is the same thing of like
Speaker 3: there was no it wasn't like it wasn't even like
Speaker 3: the beginning of COVID when they're like if you're very
Speaker 3: young or very old, like you know, Jean was twenty nine.
Speaker 3: She ran like four miles every day. She was like
Speaker 3: in the prime of health. She was one of the
Speaker 3: healthiest people I knew, Like, so there was like That's
Speaker 3: what was also weird was that it was like targeting
Speaker 3: people like in their prime health and you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you just don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh that's a humburs. And I was like Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: it feels like they were. It was like it was
Speaker 3: comments on a lot of things, the Holy AIDS. Nobody
Speaker 3: was like connavirus is like out to get moral morally wrong.
Speaker 3: So that was like definitely, you know, I know the
Speaker 3: JMS says, like, you know, I'm not suggesting that that
Speaker 3: was what I'm suggesting here, but it is. Yeah, people
Speaker 3: were saying that at the time in the AIDS epidemic.
Speaker 3: That was a huge part of it.
Speaker 2: That's the moment that makes me. That made me cry
Speaker 2: actually was when nobody wanted to go in and help
Speaker 2: and then delete because I just I remember, like I guess,
Speaker 2: you know, being having lived through the nineties. My mom's
Speaker 2: best friend or one of her best friends had a
Speaker 2: son with AIDS and he couldn't get treatment at hospitals.
Speaker 2: He ended up in a hospice run by Catholic nuns.
Speaker 2: And this is a very roundabout thing, but prior to this,
Speaker 2: my mom was part of like that evangelical branch of
Speaker 2: Christianity that believe Catholics were bad. And it was after
Speaker 2: AIDS that my mom changed her mind because some of
Speaker 2: the only people that would help nobody.
Speaker 1: It was AIDS.
Speaker 2: It was weirdly aids and lesbians. Well, we have the
Speaker 2: only people that would help men. Yeah, sorry, nuns and lesbians,
Speaker 2: I should say, yeah, nuns and lesbians.
Speaker 5: Why they just l first and LGBT.
Speaker 7: Yeah, cute, right, it's because lesbians were there to help.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was weird.
Speaker 2: It was a very weird go because I would go
Speaker 2: with her to visit this sorry this kid, and I
Speaker 2: didn't know him very well, but just being in a like,
Speaker 2: it was weird being there because it was nuns and
Speaker 2: lesbians working together. It was just a very odd thing
Speaker 2: to see as a as a like ten year old
Speaker 2: child China.
Speaker 5: So yeah, it's a lot of cognitive I feel like
Speaker 5: these two things don't usually go together.
Speaker 7: But that's like, I don't know, maybe this is a reach,
Speaker 7: but kind of the beautiful thing about crises in some
Speaker 7: ways is that it does bring unexpected people together to
Speaker 7: try and do good. Yeah, where it's like, you know,
Speaker 7: but it's that's kind of a beautiful story and a
Speaker 7: way like.
Speaker 1: It's horribly tragic, horribly yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, man, it's.
Speaker 7: Dude, we have not yet begun to really unpack how
Speaker 7: traumatized first first responders and stuff are from COVID like that.
Speaker 1: No, no, That's the thing.
Speaker 2: This episode is so interesting to Sorry that so interesting
Speaker 2: to watch now because there are parts of it that
Speaker 2: I remember thinking seemed unrealistic that don't seem unrealistic anymore.
Speaker 2: It's just like the ridiculousness of just refusing and not
Speaker 2: listening to doctors and.
Speaker 4: Like yep, yeahh shit. You know at the at the
Speaker 4: at the end of the episode, when they were like,
Speaker 4: we have a cure now and these people will not
Speaker 4: have died in vain, I was like, God, that sounds
Speaker 4: that sounds nice. Imagine making a cure and then everybody
Speaker 4: actually takes the cure and it's not that all these
Speaker 4: people and then lo and behold. JMS was like, fuck
Speaker 4: you actually, I'm going to really lean into this doesn't
Speaker 4: matter anyway.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And also not only do they all die, but
Speaker 3: then he also like the last thing he leaves is
Speaker 3: with is the racist spaces time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, bar oh my god.
Speaker 5: And I was like, wow, it's just when you went there.
Speaker 3: He did, and when you're saying things that felt like
Speaker 3: unrealistic or like would have felt unrealistically at the time,
Speaker 3: we would have been like nah, and now we're like huh,
Speaker 3: like of course or like of course because people were
Speaker 3: as whole people react.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But the other thing I thought was interesting and this
Speaker 3: felt and when you talk about and when we talk
Speaker 3: about the AIDS epidemic and we talk about people not
Speaker 3: being able to get treated, Jenny, You're a hundred percent
Speaker 3: right at the time that was the case, especially like
Speaker 3: specifically around AIDS, it was like, we don't even want
Speaker 3: to see you literally turned away from hospital. Yes, but
Speaker 3: but in this in my my watching that moment when
Speaker 3: none of them wanted to go in and Franklin said
Speaker 3: he'd be the one to go in, I was like,
Speaker 3: what are you talking about first responders or heroes and
Speaker 3: they jump in because that's my experience with COVID first responders,
Speaker 3: you know, like that is my experience. Yeah, And you know,
Speaker 3: and I think that that obviously there's.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because there's a weird there's a weird different like
Speaker 2: and not both AIDS and COVID became political, but they
Speaker 2: became political in different ways. Whereas like AIDS was you
Speaker 2: got it because you were back, because you were you
Speaker 2: were sinning, right, whereas COVID is if you treat it,
Speaker 2: you're sinning. Like it's a completely different. It's weird, Like
Speaker 2: what he says here in the in the notes, is
Speaker 2: like it wasn't about ads. It's about making a disease political.
Speaker 2: If you make a disease political, people die like that.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's not relevant at all today at all.
Speaker 3: Yep. I mean the whole conversation, the whole thing about
Speaker 3: like you know about like when when he's talking about
Speaker 3: DRAFA and he says, you know, our government didn't want
Speaker 3: to make it an issue. I mean not even he
Speaker 3: was talking about like the new Drafa, like when it
Speaker 3: came back to the government knew, but they didn't want
Speaker 3: to tell people.
Speaker 4: Because they didn't talk about it.
Speaker 3: I was just like, why what Yeah, yeah, I will
Speaker 3: say the COVID watch it upset people, I know, but
Speaker 3: like watching COVID. You know.
Speaker 1: I live in South Korea and coke Creo was one
Speaker 1: of the first countries that got hit. Yeah, and it
Speaker 1: was My mom.
Speaker 2: Was so worried about it when it was here and
Speaker 2: not in Canada like it was. She's just sending me
Speaker 2: in ninety five masks and hand sanitizer and like making
Speaker 2: sure I would if I would talk to her on FaceTime.
Speaker 2: You're like, you're not wearing your mask, Like well, I'm
Speaker 2: at home. I'm fine, like I'm in my house. But
Speaker 2: the seconded it hit Canada and inconvenience to her, it
Speaker 2: became fake and it wasn't real anymore. And it was
Speaker 2: such a weird thing to watch her mind change, just
Speaker 2: because it was now a thing that she had to
Speaker 2: do and not something on the other side of the planet.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was. That was something that I watched with
Speaker 5: members of my own family as well.
Speaker 4: Huh.
Speaker 1: It's like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: It's yeah, yes, it's wild.
Speaker 4: It's almost like viruses don't care about your politics.
Speaker 1: No, they do not they It's.
Speaker 4: Like viruses are just gonna do what they're gonna do.
Speaker 2: You think it's gonna virus And yeah, I want to
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I want to read a little as long
Speaker 2: as we're still talking about the play side of it.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's the whole story. But like, just like
Speaker 3: I want to read jms's things. Read one of jms's thinks. Uh.
Speaker 3: He says, like this is in response to the comment
Speaker 3: plague stories are trendy these days. Yea, And he says,
Speaker 3: next time, I will try and locate every other producer
Speaker 3: in town and see what they plan to produce so
Speaker 3: I can plan accordingly, like no snark there whatsoever.
Speaker 1: When I wrote.
Speaker 3: When I wrote the episode, outbreak hadn't been promoted yet
Speaker 3: or known about Voyager, hadn't heard because there's a Voyager
Speaker 3: up said er, hadn't told me what we're going to do.
Speaker 3: If I'd known there would be such a glut, well,
Speaker 3: I probably would have done so anyway, because this isn't
Speaker 3: so much about the plague and saying it's dangerous, but
Speaker 3: about our attitudes when we are confronted by this, which
Speaker 3: really hasn't been dealt with all that much in sci fi.
Speaker 3: And then he says, I yeah, I mean, he says,
Speaker 3: and I'm sorry, but don't even try to bring the
Speaker 3: Voyager story into this. The ship is threatened by a
Speaker 3: cheese contamination. I almost fell off my chair.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I forgot about that one.
Speaker 1: It's a cheese contamination on Voyager, Yes.
Speaker 3: And it gets it in biometrics right like the bio.
Speaker 1: I think so, yeah, because it's a biogel. Yeah biogel. Ye.
Speaker 5: I watched Shadie and I kind of am here for it.
Speaker 4: Look, I kind of get why he would be snarky
Speaker 4: towards Star Trek considering the existence of deep space nine. Yes,
Speaker 4: I can't really blame As much as I love Deep
Speaker 4: Space nine, I can't really blame him for that.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, I don't know, like he might have
Speaker 2: been saying it was not every episode is going to
Speaker 2: be a gem.
Speaker 1: The fact he watched it. He was watching Voyager, so
Speaker 1: like you know.
Speaker 4: There is an episode where a virus becomes giant b
Speaker 4: and tries to stab Janeway in the face.
Speaker 1: Yes, which is a dumb episode except Jane was wearing
Speaker 1: a tank top with a big gun.
Speaker 4: Yes she is.
Speaker 1: I am a lesbian.
Speaker 4: She doing the Ellen Ripley thing in that episode. Yes,
Speaker 4: that is the Ellen Ripley episode.
Speaker 5: I thought this episode was incredible personally.
Speaker 4: This episode was, Yes, I really good about this. The
Speaker 4: other thing I feel like that differentiates this episode from
Speaker 4: like all of the other plagues, well not all of them,
Speaker 4: I haven't seen all of them, but many of the
Speaker 4: other plague stories he's talking about, is they didn't actually
Speaker 4: fix the problem. No, they all died. I mean they
Speaker 4: were never it was never going to infect humans, probably,
Speaker 4: and it was never going to infect Minbari probably, and
Speaker 4: it was never going to da but the pac Moran
Speaker 4: and not the drowsy. I'm sorry, I'm so saying drowsy
Speaker 4: the pacu Mara and the Mark habit was going to infect.
Speaker 4: I guess they saved the pac Mara. But yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean that was a gut punch at the end.
Speaker 4: You know, you don't always. I was not exactly expecting
Speaker 4: the denuma of the episode to be and everyone died,
Speaker 4: and you kept.
Speaker 1: Talking about we've got to save the child. That little
Speaker 1: child died, died.
Speaker 4: And so did all the other ones.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I sent a message in a full spoilers channel
Speaker 2: that you guys can't see. But when you asked if
Speaker 2: Ali should be here for this one, and I said
Speaker 2: I would actually like to have Ali here for this one,
Speaker 2: and I said me too, But I said a message
Speaker 2: like the last time they asked me if Ali should
Speaker 2: skip and I said no, it was believed.
Speaker 1: Do I just want Ali around for dead children? Is
Speaker 1: that what's going on?
Speaker 5: This is really the question at the hour.
Speaker 1: I promise that's not the thought.
Speaker 5: Do you just want me to suffer?
Speaker 4: This episode almost feels.
Speaker 5: Considering my absolute love of children.
Speaker 4: Tell us like the anti Believers in a way, because
Speaker 4: Believers was doctor Steve does fucked up ship and kids
Speaker 4: die and this episode was doctor Steve does the absolute
Speaker 4: best he can and kids die, kids die.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, he's not wrong. Everybody does a plague episode,
Speaker 3: Like you're doing sci fi, there's going to be a
Speaker 3: plague episode, Like you're not going to I mean, go
Speaker 3: back to original series. There's was a plague episode. But
Speaker 3: and you have to. And also he did say something
Speaker 3: too about he was this is interesting. He said something
Speaker 3: about the CDC. He said, we did have a you know,
Speaker 3: uh advisor from CDC consultant. Yeah, and he says, one
Speaker 3: person I spoke with it the CDC said that, hypothetically speaking,
Speaker 3: the sudden eruption of a disease like this is possible,
Speaker 3: like you think, how likely depends on various circumstances, and
Speaker 3: you know, so he's kind of just like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: And then he's talking about, yeah, things being highly contagiratic.
Speaker 3: He said, the only thing that has prevented a massive
Speaker 3: outbreak is the fact that by the time you can
Speaker 3: generally get out of these remote areas, you're debt. Because
Speaker 3: he's talking about like things that are in remote areas
Speaker 3: and like yeah, and he also says he asked the
Speaker 3: CDC guy about like between species. The consultant and uh,
Speaker 3: you know and that guy. Let's see, we do have
Speaker 3: a medical biology advisor, biological advisor whose primary comment on
Speaker 3: the notion that a virus couldn't pass between one species
Speaker 3: and another, and he says, we have yet to contract
Speaker 3: one other one other alien life form to make me
Speaker 3: it make an analysis. But I'm like, we know that
Speaker 3: they it crosses species of them, So I'm.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, right, but I think the idea is like
Speaker 2: if it comes from another.
Speaker 3: Really different evolutionary chair wile Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 7: That is the danger of contacting alien species that I
Speaker 7: never even thought of before.
Speaker 5: Yeah, was like, well yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: He mentions it here, like when the first astronauts, like
Speaker 2: when they were quarantined when they came back to Earth
Speaker 2: because it was like, we don't know, are there diseases
Speaker 2: in space?
Speaker 3: Yeah, like is the moon the moon? Else have stuff? Yeah,
Speaker 3: theyre always uarantine. I mean they actually yeah, fascinating.
Speaker 4: Ye.
Speaker 1: So do you have thoughts, Sally? And we've been talking
Speaker 1: a lot. I just thought do you have?
Speaker 7: I just thought it was a really interesting move to
Speaker 7: also like include a child when we're talking about like
Speaker 7: morality versus immorality and like who deserves to be sick
Speaker 7: and things like that. Like, yeah, there's a really great
Speaker 7: play called The Yellow Boat about the AIDS crisis, which
Speaker 7: is about a father and a son and this is
Speaker 7: based on a true story. And the son dies during
Speaker 7: the ACE crisis and he's a child because he has
Speaker 7: a blood transfusion and you know it's the wrong kind
Speaker 7: of blood transfusion. It's the wrong Yeah, they different something.
Speaker 7: He's sick and it's just one of those things. And
Speaker 7: like they talk about that, like how ostracized.
Speaker 5: They were and like how.
Speaker 7: Yeah, because people were afraid and like how how like
Speaker 7: that immorality thing affected them? And you know, I think
Speaker 7: people like, no, obviously, no one deserves to be sick,
Speaker 7: but like people like have no scope of the I
Speaker 7: think they wanted to like be able to say, like, well,
Speaker 7: other people get sick and.
Speaker 5: They deserve it, and they think that keeps them.
Speaker 7: Safe, right, Like it's this it's this perverted idea of
Speaker 7: like wanting to be safe. So if you can justify
Speaker 7: what other people get sick and why you don't, and
Speaker 7: like it's this attempt also, I think to justify the
Speaker 7: randomness of life, like how things just happen and we
Speaker 7: don't always have and like it's this uncomfortable thing where
Speaker 7: we have to face the fact that, like life is
Speaker 7: very uncertain and we don't really like that. So instead,
Speaker 7: if we can say, like, oh, this group of people
Speaker 7: like they deserved it.
Speaker 5: It's a punishment of some kind, Like we can kind
Speaker 5: of like.
Speaker 7: Wave it away or like, oh, well they had pre
Speaker 7: existing conditions, so like you know, it's somehow they're like
Speaker 7: people who were like pre ordained to die anyway, So
Speaker 7: like you know, it's like this weird thing where we
Speaker 7: can Yeah, so they're control. It's callous and it's fucked up,
Speaker 7: but it is an attempt to control a situation that
Speaker 7: may reminds us that we have very little control. And
Speaker 7: I think it was very smart to include a child
Speaker 7: in that discussion, because it's like, well, children got sick,
Speaker 7: it's people, people of all different types got sick with it.
Speaker 5: It's like.
Speaker 7: Justify that, like you know, I mean, it's fucked up
Speaker 7: to do any regardless, but like, yeah.
Speaker 2: Is that like that line that the Len said, I
Speaker 2: want to talk about the lenn in this episode.
Speaker 1: Compassion, I did similarity, not I.
Speaker 3: Did that similarity was a requirement for Compassion. I wrote
Speaker 3: it down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, good, is that.
Speaker 2: That is something I also remember. I didn't have the
Speaker 2: words so articulated at the time, but I do remember
Speaker 2: this from the nineties of the sympathetic faces of AIDS
Speaker 2: were the children who caught it from uh from.
Speaker 1: Ryan White, I believe was I can't remember.
Speaker 2: There was a boy who was very very famous, became
Speaker 2: very famous because of that, like Michael Jackson wrote a
Speaker 2: song about him, into all that, but like and thinking
Speaker 2: that that was not I remember as like a middle
Speaker 2: school kid who knew somebody, thinking that that's not fair
Speaker 2: that this boy I know because I thought of him
Speaker 2: as a boy, but he was like nineteen and he
Speaker 2: was gay and dying of AIDS, Like why isn't it
Speaker 2: sad that he's dying? Why is it only sad when
Speaker 2: children are dying? That's not It's not fair. And and I,
Speaker 2: like I do putting a child's face always makes things
Speaker 2: like world vision does that, like everybody does that, but
Speaker 2: it does it does snake. It seem we can only
Speaker 2: care about certain people and not everyone.
Speaker 7: I think it was an attempt to counteract this narrative,
Speaker 7: but like at the same time, it was dehumanizing to
Speaker 7: other groups of people, like no one deserves to be
Speaker 7: ill and die, Like that's not that's not a thing,
Speaker 7: you know. I also wonder if de Lenne is a
Speaker 7: little bit in this like giving up well, her whole
Speaker 7: thing about like I didn't know that similarity, but that
Speaker 7: would I want that like tattooed on my body? But
Speaker 7: if I were, if I were the type the weather
Speaker 7: in afraid of needles like that. It was an incredible line.
Speaker 7: But there were a couple of things that I thought
Speaker 7: of during that. One was that, like you said, Jenny,
Speaker 7: the like Catholic nuns where it's like, you know, theoretically
Speaker 7: right there people who disagree the most with homosexuality and
Speaker 7: that didn't stop them from being compassionate at a time
Speaker 7: where like most people were not.
Speaker 5: And then also.
Speaker 7: There was a part of me that was like it
Speaker 7: felt a little almost also Princess Diana, you too, Princess
Speaker 7: where it's like she she did a lot to kind
Speaker 7: of destigmatize it as well by like you know, touching
Speaker 7: the patients and being compassionate, and.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I just that was there was a thought
Speaker 5: about that for me. But yeah, what uh what us
Speaker 5: I we got her acting This episode.
Speaker 4: Was also just and every episode.
Speaker 5: I mean pain like, she's incredible.
Speaker 4: Well and not to not to. I don't want to
Speaker 4: pivot away from the tragedy of it all too much
Speaker 4: because that.
Speaker 1: I know what you're about to talk about, because that's
Speaker 1: my next question.
Speaker 4: But she and Bruce are on a first name basis now,
Speaker 4: m hmmm. And there was there was there was there
Speaker 4: was hand placement, you know, listen, there were there were moments.
Speaker 5: Listen.
Speaker 7: I hate being a like I hate when like we
Speaker 7: have a man and a woman who are close in
Speaker 7: something and they can't just be bride, you know, like
Speaker 7: but we have that with like Avanava.
Speaker 1: I was about to say already, yeah.
Speaker 7: Their buddies, Like there is not it's not the same
Speaker 7: vibe with Delenne and that maybe just that she has
Speaker 7: chemistry with everyone that moves.
Speaker 4: But after this, there's one more thing I want to
Speaker 4: say about compassion, by the way, But but.
Speaker 7: She yeah, there was and and listen, I think that
Speaker 7: we as a society should normalize that people could touch
Speaker 7: each other.
Speaker 5: And it's just like platonic affection. Are you aren't you
Speaker 5: maybe marriage?
Speaker 4: Like he's out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if I want to normalize people touching my face,
Speaker 2: that that that's.
Speaker 4: Not the that's not necessarily that you can have a
Speaker 4: relationship okay, yes, not go up to random strangers and
Speaker 4: touch their face, like you can have a connection with
Speaker 4: somebody where faces can be touched without it being necessarily romantic. Yes, people,
Speaker 4: because you're French. Basically people can be.
Speaker 3: Physical without it being meaning sex.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, yeah, but I don't know.
Speaker 5: Well, I just wanted.
Speaker 7: To preempt that by saying normalize, like physical effection between
Speaker 7: men and women, like normalized, like you know, blah blah.
Speaker 7: All that being said, though, the chemistry was insane, and you.
Speaker 4: Did say day one, as soon as she popped out
Speaker 4: of that cocoon, you went, oh, they made her hot
Speaker 4: so she can fall in love with with handsome Bruce
Speaker 4: box lightner.
Speaker 7: I did say that, And I stand and I and
Speaker 7: and look at me. I stand by it. Look at me,
Speaker 7: I stand by like she's it's happening regardless, like the
Speaker 7: respect that he.
Speaker 5: Had for her too.
Speaker 7: I'm a sucker for men respecting this ship out of women.
Speaker 4: You know, one of the best through lines of this season.
Speaker 5: That's a low bar, but hey one cleared it.
Speaker 4: One of my favorite, very suttle through line stories of
Speaker 4: this season so far has been Sheridan and de Lenz
Speaker 4: burgeoning mutual respect friendship. Uh, what's the fucking term? Foreign
Speaker 4: exchange student kind of you know, you learn about my culture.
Speaker 4: I learned about yours. Yeah, you were the best fucking
Speaker 4: dress I've ever seen. We go to dinner. Yeah, I
Speaker 4: eat one noodle an hour for seventeen hours straight kind
Speaker 4: of thing. Like I took a.
Speaker 2: Note of this, sorry, because he was snoring and he
Speaker 2: was like, I don't store he said that before to to.
Speaker 4: Susan to boom Yeah.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And the sleepover Yeah, he's really John Sheridan has sleep apnea.
Speaker 7: Man, that's that's the machine. Yeah, it's like it'll be
Speaker 7: so much better rested.
Speaker 4: But it's just fun to watch this kind of kind
Speaker 4: of slowly creep forward because again I don't remember which
Speaker 4: episode it was. There was an episode. You asked me,
Speaker 4: what do you think you'll remember from this, and I said,
Speaker 4: probably the ten seconds where Bruce and Delenn went to dinner. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it was the one with the sleepover scene, the sleepover plot,
Speaker 4: Workers of the World You Unite. What was the other
Speaker 4: plot in that episode? See, that's the thing that was
Speaker 4: that was like the b and the sea plot of
Speaker 4: that episode.
Speaker 2: Plot was of that episode, No, because there was the
Speaker 2: one yeah, where they had to have the sleepover because
Speaker 2: they couldn't get into their court and he had.
Speaker 4: One meal with Delenn And that's right now the only
Speaker 4: thing I remember from that yes, yes, and then the
Speaker 4: hard eyes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it is it is interesting because there's a
Speaker 3: there is this like, first of all, the like, there
Speaker 3: were several poignant lines written by JMS in this episode
Speaker 3: that were just like and like what I just love
Speaker 3: about his writing. The second thing is that he is
Speaker 3: he is always and never moving away from and shying
Speaker 3: away from the sentiment I I did not know similarity
Speaker 3: was a requirement for compassion And why don't we learn
Speaker 3: about other cultures? When we learn about each other's cultures,
Speaker 3: we respect each other's cultures, we can grow to love
Speaker 3: one another's culture. Is like, he's just you know, and
Speaker 3: and and also the relationship between I mean this one,
Speaker 3: this one felt to me like, Okay, aside from Keffer,
Speaker 3: we'll talk about that in a minute, But from aside
Speaker 3: from Keffer, this one was really connected. He even says
Speaker 3: it's sort of the passover episode, like she's there having
Speaker 3: sort of a version of passover dinner at the same time,
Speaker 3: we're talking.
Speaker 1: Yeah that Dylen, uh help me Valen.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, leave the exactly and then
Speaker 3: and then and then on top of that, like then
Speaker 3: when we're talking about the Mark cabin, we're like it
Speaker 3: passed people over, Like they literally say will it pass
Speaker 3: me over or something? Or it passed me over? And
Speaker 3: then we have this like mask right, yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: and and also like the passover plague like so it's
Speaker 3: really yeah, it's really interesting. I think there's like a
Speaker 3: lot of connections here, but all of it coming back
Speaker 3: to He's like, it's not entirely a political episode. It's
Speaker 3: just saying that when you put He says, when you
Speaker 3: politicize a disease, it's not going to go well. The
Speaker 3: treatment's not going to go well. And I think that,
Speaker 3: you know, he is just he never loses his focus
Speaker 3: of we need to be more compassionate, we need to
Speaker 3: be willing to learn about others. And this is such
Speaker 3: a clean episode for that. It's such a good episode.
Speaker 5: He's exactly right too.
Speaker 4: Well, I once again find myself in a position where
Speaker 4: I have to reference the malasone book of the Fallen,
Speaker 4: because the I keep on getting your hair in my elbow.
Speaker 4: I apologize because the entire conceit of malas En book
Speaker 4: and The Fall and is it's basically a three point
Speaker 4: three million word meditation on compassion and the importance of compassion.
Speaker 4: And there's one particular quotation that happens in an earlier
Speaker 4: book which I think is kind of relevant to de
Speaker 4: Lens de Lens thing and everything else in this and
Speaker 4: really kind of the show as a whole, where somebody says,
Speaker 4: we humans do not understand compassion. In each moment of
Speaker 4: our lives, we betray it. I we know of it's worth,
Speaker 4: yet in knowing we then attached to it a value.
Speaker 4: We guard the giving of it, believing it must be earned.
Speaker 4: Compassion is priceless in the truest sense of the word.
Speaker 4: It must be given freely in abundance. And I like
Speaker 4: that quote, and the Lens thing made me think of that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so true.
Speaker 5: I just I get so bothered because we're so quick to.
Speaker 7: Obviously, boundaries are important, right, obviously you know you must
Speaker 7: protect yourself from things.
Speaker 5: But we're very quick too.
Speaker 7: I think I saw this interview one time with this
Speaker 7: guy and he was and he said, and it stuck
Speaker 7: with me forever, never assume malice where ignorance can be explained. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 7: And like that has stuck with me forever. And I
Speaker 7: think we are always like we're all people with like
Speaker 7: context that other people don't have, walking around doing our best.
Speaker 5: Like It's why I'm obsessed.
Speaker 7: With like like youngie and stuff and all this stuff lately,
Speaker 7: because I'm just like we're all just out here with
Speaker 7: all these wounds that we're poking in each other all
Speaker 7: the time without knowing that they're there, And like we
Speaker 7: just assume a lot of the time that people are
Speaker 7: poking those wounds on purpose and not looking at like
Speaker 7: the humanity behind, like why, And I think it prevents
Speaker 7: us often from actually solving problems. I think it creates
Speaker 7: problems where they don't need to be any because we
Speaker 7: just assume the worst in other people all the time
Speaker 7: and refuse to One of my favorite things to say
Speaker 7: to my students is two things can be true, Like
Speaker 7: when we're talking about history and things like that, Like
Speaker 7: two things can be true, Like this perspective can be
Speaker 7: true and this perspective can be true at the same time, right,
Speaker 7: And like our tragedy I feel is that we like
Speaker 7: don't see that that like two perspectives can simultaneously. Yeah,
Speaker 7: that two things can be true simultaneously at the same
Speaker 7: time and equally valid. And so it's just like, uh,
Speaker 7: and I just feel like it causes so many more
Speaker 7: problems than it needs to, and like just how incredible
Speaker 7: it was, like the contrast between like de Lenz compassion
Speaker 7: and this guy making Catleus jokes about yeah, you know,
Speaker 7: like which you know they would eventually, you know they
Speaker 7: would eventually, because I mean, human beings are making jokes
Speaker 7: about nine to eleven nowadays, Like they make jokes about
Speaker 7: I mean tragedies all the time.
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, eventually any sting of it fades.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean I'm just again like people were
Speaker 2: doing that during COVID, not necessarily jokes, saying really callous
Speaker 2: like anti Asian jokes because.
Speaker 7: Good oh yeah, there were people attacking Asian people in
Speaker 7: the street just for existing, just for the crime of
Speaker 7: being Asian.
Speaker 4: The week that this is different from that, but it
Speaker 4: is relevant to people making light of the issue. The
Speaker 4: week before everything shut down, I was like, I should
Speaker 4: probably get provisions, and I was walking to the grocery
Speaker 4: store with a mask on and a guy was riding
Speaker 4: by me on a bike, and as he approached me,
Speaker 4: he saw that I had a mask on. He's leaned everyone,
Speaker 4: and then he kept riding past us.
Speaker 5: Like, what's the point of that?
Speaker 4: Who does that benefit? You're just being an asshole?
Speaker 7: Yep, yeah, this is I think people are very wounded,
Speaker 7: and they just they act strangely when they're afraid, or
Speaker 7: they act strangely when confronted with their own mortality. You know,
Speaker 7: so they're like, oh, like, I have to distance myself
Speaker 7: from it by making it seem laughable, because if I
Speaker 7: can laugh at it, it's not a threat.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's also true.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to go ahead, jay, oh no, because I
Speaker 2: don't I have something to say that has Literally I
Speaker 2: don't have an answer to the question, and I want
Speaker 2: to say I don't. I don't know how COVID got politics,
Speaker 2: Like didn't become politicized in Korea. I don't know how
Speaker 2: it didn't happen is a very conservative country, like just
Speaker 2: in general, but it just didn't happen here. But also
Speaker 2: everybody just wore masks and nobody people stayed home when
Speaker 2: they were told to, Like, if I get a COVID diagnosis,
Speaker 2: I say, like, nobody, nobody.
Speaker 3: But there was a history of that. There's a history
Speaker 3: in Asian countries of wearing a mask when you're sick
Speaker 3: because you're not an asshole. And I guess, and there's
Speaker 3: a history of looking at that in America, and it
Speaker 3: means it's nice I had America. When I say it
Speaker 3: like that, when you see that, you're like, oh, that's
Speaker 3: another thing. That's something Asian people do. Wearing masks is
Speaker 3: something other people do. I don't want to look like
Speaker 3: other people like I mean, I think that led into it,
Speaker 3: that was part of it.
Speaker 4: I talk sometimes, I play a lot of the video
Speaker 4: this is relevant, I swear. I play the Yakuza games
Speaker 4: all the time, and I played a lot of Yakaza
Speaker 4: five recently. Yakaza five was made in like, I don't know,
Speaker 4: twenty fifteen, twenty fourteen, and it is like thirty percent
Speaker 4: of the NPC's just randomly walking around the street wearing mask.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is true when you're sick you wear a mask.
Speaker 2: That is a thing that people you hear just the
Speaker 2: entire time I've lived here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm only playing that out because for me as
Speaker 4: was America as a Westerner, I was like, oh, this
Speaker 4: makes me think of COVID. It doesn't make me think
Speaker 4: of It's just what you would do, right, you.
Speaker 1: Know, I will tell you it's a completely funny thing.
Speaker 2: You Also, masks are part of winter wear here, like
Speaker 2: the masks that they keep your fing like. It's literally
Speaker 2: not a helping it's to keep your face warm, which
Speaker 2: was a problem when COVID happened because in the winter,
Speaker 2: when you were wearing a mask and you talk to somebody,
Speaker 2: by reflex, you pull your mask down, and with COVID
Speaker 2: you're not supposed to do that. But it took people
Speaker 2: like a couple of months to get used to, don't
Speaker 2: pull your mask down when you're talking to people, because
Speaker 2: that's just like wearing a mask is just the thing
Speaker 2: that you do when.
Speaker 1: You're cold, and so it was just funny.
Speaker 7: Yeah, anyway, I mean, it's absolutely i thing you should
Speaker 7: do if you're not feeling I remember, pre COVID.
Speaker 4: We have fifty masks in the house. I had just
Speaker 4: keep them.
Speaker 7: I knew people who like bragged to me about how
Speaker 7: like they never missed a day of school, like they
Speaker 7: went to school sick. And I was sitting there I
Speaker 7: saw with the chronic illness, going like you're a problem
Speaker 7: for me, Like, yeah, stay the fuck home. I get sick,
Speaker 7: I'm sick for weeks. Yeah, you know, like I don't
Speaker 7: like back then. Lately my health's been pretty good. But
Speaker 7: back then, like before I started really working on like
Speaker 7: what my body was doing, Like I would get sick
Speaker 7: for weeks, and I was like that is so fucking
Speaker 7: It's like I was like, don't brag to me about
Speaker 7: your work ethic and like I was like, no, you're
Speaker 7: a problem. You're you're a freaking patian zero over here,
Speaker 7: like for this office all the time.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't America.
Speaker 7: America can be very strange too, I think in that
Speaker 7: like weird, like go to work even if you're like
Speaker 7: near death's doore Well.
Speaker 2: I'd just saying like there is a good side and
Speaker 2: a bad side to the wearing masks things, because part
Speaker 2: of the wearing a mask is that you're supposed to
Speaker 2: go to.
Speaker 1: Work wear a mask. Like it's not meant to be
Speaker 1: like a.
Speaker 2: Oh you're sick, stay home and take care of yourself.
Speaker 2: It's so you're sick, we have something to help you
Speaker 2: prevent spreading that as you go to work.
Speaker 4: Yeah, do we want to talk about, frankly, the a
Speaker 4: plot of the episode. Yeah, Warren Keffer.
Speaker 5: I love that.
Speaker 7: They they brought it in and we were like, oh
Speaker 7: my god, it gets a plot, and they immediately yanked out.
Speaker 4: I thought it was the capisode. I really I thought
Speaker 4: it was the capisode. He got two scenes.
Speaker 3: And then he was gone, done nothing relevant. I mean,
Speaker 3: he did bring in the ship, he did bring the Dutch.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Her he was told not to go into. Did you
Speaker 1: do you know you realize why he was told not
Speaker 1: to go in and be hunting for the shadow Ship anymore?
Speaker 4: Right, Well, because he's been taking his star Fury out
Speaker 4: on his own time apparently and just flying around hyperspace,
Speaker 4: but also to see any of them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's trying to keep it right. They're like, they're like,
Speaker 3: we don't want the Shadows to know that we do.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's why that was why Bruce had that
Speaker 2: face of like, oh no, no.
Speaker 4: No, don't do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't we don't want you finding this.
Speaker 5: Also know the Shadows are in hyperspace.
Speaker 1: No, but he he you know, knows that something.
Speaker 4: So when he hears weird bullshit, he goes, uh, oh,
Speaker 4: don't touch it.
Speaker 5: Okay, don't.
Speaker 3: But also, I mean, like, and maybe I'm just like
Speaker 3: a little more sensitive to this, but I'm like, how
Speaker 3: much does it cost to fuel up a starfire? You're
Speaker 3: just taking it up for fucking joy rides a gazillion
Speaker 3: billion dollar ship that is your personal ship that it
Speaker 3: costs a gazillion dellillion dollars to like fill it up
Speaker 3: with fuel, and you're like, I'm just gonna look at
Speaker 3: real a little bit. I'm like, that is not military
Speaker 3: behavior right there at all.
Speaker 4: You don't just take a plot so much.
Speaker 1: He is an answer to this somewhere.
Speaker 2: Oh he talks somewhere in something I don't know, I
Speaker 2: can't remember where I read it. But the answer is
Speaker 2: that he's not like he's fueling up the ship and
Speaker 2: going out there to hunt in hyperspace. It's you set
Speaker 2: me out to do something, and when it's time to
Speaker 2: come back in, I'm like, okay, I take the time
Speaker 2: there for yeah, I'll go looking after I'm done the
Speaker 2: other job. So the majority of fuel would be taken
Speaker 2: in leaving the ship and then docking.
Speaker 1: So he's not wasting a huge amount of fuel here.
Speaker 1: It is he's wasting time here.
Speaker 3: It is the fighters aren't inexpensive, but not hideously costly either. Also,
Speaker 3: the pilots like to spend as much time out in
Speaker 3: patrol as possible to garner more flight pay. Okay, well,
Speaker 3: Keffer's squad was already out earlier. As noted by Sheridan,
Speaker 3: Keffer chose to stay out a little longer, doing a
Speaker 3: bit of reconnaissance, most of the hassle is and prepping
Speaker 3: the ship for launch, maintenance and so on. Once it's out,
Speaker 3: it's just a matter of a bit more fuel. If
Speaker 3: he left strictly for this purpose, Yeah, yeah, they nail
Speaker 3: his butt to the flight deck. But since he was
Speaker 3: out anyway, it's not as big of an issue. Okay, fine, ah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe they just forgot he was out. Maybe nobody noticed.
Speaker 1: Nobody noticed Keffer was gone, Like.
Speaker 4: Where's Zeta leader? Like, who's Data leader?
Speaker 5: Maybe that's where he's just been this whole time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's just doing donuts in hyperspace.
Speaker 7: Everybody else is like, but is it hyperspace also super dangerous?
Speaker 1: Like yeah, you had to stay on the beacon. You
Speaker 1: had to stay on the beacon too.
Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, but like we've seen that that has has
Speaker 7: historically not happened.
Speaker 4: It's warring. I guess they don't care they shot, you know, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: that's that's what we know about him from all of
Speaker 4: our time with Warren Keffer shot getting more. I got
Speaker 4: what is an episode eighteen of four left?
Speaker 5: We got four left? Four left this season when he
Speaker 5: was in the main the.
Speaker 3: Main I keep thinking about.
Speaker 7: I keep thinking about in the main cast.
Speaker 5: That's crazy.
Speaker 4: Mid season I keep thinking about.
Speaker 3: I keep thinking about, Oh my god, what's the afterss?
Speaker 3: His name? I can't think of her name? Help guess,
Speaker 3: thank you, Jenny and Denise Crosby. Keep think about Denise
Speaker 3: Crosby saying like by you know, by mid season, by
Speaker 3: mid season one, even like she's you know, she's like
Speaker 3: legs behind a console, like you can't even see her.
Speaker 3: She has like one line. Maybe she was still doing
Speaker 3: a ship ton more. Just like, can I go fucking
Speaker 3: get a real show that I like that I'm in?
Speaker 3: Can I like please go like get out of my car?
Speaker 3: I mean, I just that's like how I keep feeling
Speaker 3: about him as an actor, just being like he's like
Speaker 3: he's kind of.
Speaker 5: On a hole.
Speaker 9: He's a I can't do anything else, but he gets
Speaker 9: paid any but he gets paid per episode, like per
Speaker 9: episode he's in, right, not per episode?
Speaker 2: I would imagine wouldn't he have like, wouldn't he have
Speaker 2: it like a minimum contract?
Speaker 3: I don't. I can look it up from the nineties.
Speaker 3: I can't remember exactly how it was. But you are
Speaker 3: as a as a as a main cast member, as
Speaker 3: a series regular. Yes, there is a minimum per episode,
Speaker 3: but you have to be in it to get paid it.
Speaker 3: So even if you're in the credits at the top.
Speaker 5: Do they hate this man? What is happening?
Speaker 2: Like is what I heard? I don't even know if
Speaker 2: it was about this show, but like, you would get
Speaker 2: hired for like thirteen episodes even if you don't get
Speaker 2: thirteen epis contract.
Speaker 3: So I'm sure that even though he's main cast, like, yes,
Speaker 3: he probably was guaranteed a certain number of episodes, So
Speaker 3: even if he's not in them, he's still going to
Speaker 3: get paid out for them. That's true.
Speaker 4: There's two men cast who have done fuck all. It's
Speaker 4: Keffer and new Tooth. And I assume that the reason
Speaker 4: that New Tooth is doing fucking nothing is because Julie
Speaker 4: Kate and Caitlin Brown left and they brought in Mary
Speaker 4: Kay Adams who was fine from the fifteen seconds I've
Speaker 4: seen of her. But maybe they were just like, well,
Speaker 4: we don't really want to proceed with the character in
Speaker 4: this vein, I guess, But Warren, it doesn't make any
Speaker 4: sense because Warren, clearly they created the character and we're
Speaker 4: excited about this. I mean, they created the character. They
Speaker 4: made a point of hooking him in season one in
Speaker 4: episode one and two, and I think he had a
Speaker 4: little bit in three andos.
Speaker 5: And now this can I tell you what my theory
Speaker 5: is about this?
Speaker 1: What's your theory?
Speaker 7: I feel like his role is going to become more
Speaker 7: important as the war advances, like as there's more potential
Speaker 7: he's a fighter plic because he's a fighter pilot, like
Speaker 7: right now, like, yes, there's a war, but it hasn't
Speaker 7: really reached Babylon five in a substantial way yet in
Speaker 7: a while. But there have been some fight like some
Speaker 7: scenes where I'm like, oh, this would be a perfect
Speaker 7: time for Warren Keffert that he has not been in,
Speaker 7: which is wild.
Speaker 4: Yeah, many, yeah.
Speaker 7: Like there have been a few episodes with this like
Speaker 7: exploded you know stuff.
Speaker 4: And you made a joke Ellie in the second episode
Speaker 4: where you said the studio told him we need a
Speaker 4: hot shot. Yeah, that could also be what happened, and
Speaker 4: then JMS just like, fine, you can have him.
Speaker 7: But here's your hotspat, but I will not be using
Speaker 7: it yet. But which does feel like I think he
Speaker 7: would do. But it's like, uh, I'll take the oue,
Speaker 7: but I'm not gonna be happy now. Yeah, but I
Speaker 7: feel like there's the potential for like things advanced from
Speaker 7: a war perspective, that he might become more important as
Speaker 7: a character, just because like right now it feels.
Speaker 5: Like it's still there's a war, but there's still Yeah,
Speaker 5: they're still kind of ramping up to that.
Speaker 4: I remember something else I wanted to say, but it's
Speaker 4: not about Warren Keffer. So we later if you want,
Speaker 4: or I can just really quick interject this.
Speaker 5: I'm just waiting for the episode.
Speaker 4: But yes, is that we've we've now had episodes focusing
Speaker 4: on war and focusing on.
Speaker 5: Can I say one more things?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 4: And I just wanted to mention that.
Speaker 5: Wait, can wait continue an activities.
Speaker 4: Of death? So I'm on the eye. I got my life,
Speaker 4: my eyes up for famine, which I guess would.
Speaker 5: Totally going to happen because that's what happens in war, I.
Speaker 4: Guess would be uh, a team of was famine, right,
Speaker 4: I think so? But anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 5: Out anyway, well said thank you, thank you, Ferry.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 7: I was just saying that I think they're going to
Speaker 7: use Warren Keffer as they have before, as like a
Speaker 7: this is like the price of war from a soldier's
Speaker 7: perspective for more of a.
Speaker 1: I can see that. Yeah, you know, I can see.
Speaker 7: That person that can kind of go out into the
Speaker 7: being the ship because like they did that with him
Speaker 7: with his buddies that went and done.
Speaker 1: Guy.
Speaker 5: I feel like it's like, yeah, we're going to.
Speaker 7: Look at cost of war from like the perspective, also
Speaker 7: from like the command perspective, but then also the perspective
Speaker 7: of like people being ordered into doing things. Yeah, I
Speaker 7: think maybe he's the like every man that we can follow.
Speaker 7: Does that makes sense? So that might be where his
Speaker 7: because we've got like we haven't even talked about psycre
Speaker 7: in forever too. Yeah, all they're gonna ship.
Speaker 4: Was like when I'm when I'm trying to keep track
Speaker 4: of and I know we've kind of diverged away from
Speaker 4: this particular episode and three fifteen in the morning for
Speaker 4: Jenny Jenny. When I when I look kind of track
Speaker 4: trying to track all of the threads in my mind
Speaker 4: at once, there are a couple of threads that keep
Speaker 4: on kind of going and then coming back. And one
Speaker 4: of them is psycor and everything to do with Talia,
Speaker 4: because Talia vanishes for weeks at a time and then
Speaker 4: comes back and has three episodes in a row and
Speaker 4: then poofs away into the ether again. And the other one,
Speaker 4: I guess is section thirteen, which kind of connects into Psycorp.
Speaker 4: I feel like Cycorps Section thirteen in trash Gym are
Speaker 4: all points on a given Clark Morgan, Clark, whatever. Those
Speaker 4: are all points on the same triangle. But it is
Speaker 4: funny to me because when I watch the main cast stuff,
Speaker 4: I'm like, Okay, Londo, Jakar, Delenn, Vier Lanier, Bruce, Garibaldi
Speaker 4: and Ivanova. They're very insistent cap for neutalk No, not
Speaker 4: at all, right, and then tips in and out.
Speaker 3: It's really important. When she blips in.
Speaker 4: She's really important. She clips in except yeah, except she
Speaker 4: got coffee spilled on her. But then she just kind
Speaker 4: of vanishes for weeks at a time, and it's it's
Speaker 4: odd to me that that keeps happening, only because I
Speaker 4: know Jams is such a meriticulous planner, right, So it's
Speaker 4: funny to me, and I'm wondering, I'm looking forward to
Speaker 4: why that might be happening, because I really like Talia.
Speaker 4: She's a she's telekinetic. Now we've mentioned that once, you know, here's.
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, yeah, well, I was just gonna say, you know,
Speaker 3: you're mentioning like Italia not being there and like you know,
Speaker 3: Trush Jim and the political side of things, and you know,
Speaker 3: Morgan Cichor or Talia. Here's what's funny, Like this was
Speaker 3: such a good episode. I was like, oh, yeah, Londo
Speaker 3: and Jakar weren't in this episode.
Speaker 4: They weren't. Yeah, Like, I feel like the.
Speaker 3: Story stops when we don't have Londo and Jaikar in
Speaker 3: some ways, like I'm always because I'm like that feels
Speaker 3: really important, especially this season with a whole like the
Speaker 3: war that's going on. And then I'm like, I didn't
Speaker 3: even think once about them in this episode. Didn't even
Speaker 3: think once about missing them in this episode. It's really fascinating.
Speaker 3: It's a full episode.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, yeah, because I think it's still a
Speaker 7: continuation on this theme of like, this is what happens
Speaker 7: when blank gets politicized? You know, like I think we're
Speaker 7: looking at and now I'm predicting that there's going to
Speaker 7: be a famine episode where it's like, this is what
Speaker 7: happens when famine gets politicized.
Speaker 5: I'm feeling like that's possible.
Speaker 7: Because I because there's no way it doesn't, like, you know,
Speaker 7: resources and things and the allocation of those becomes very important.
Speaker 7: But I'm feeling like it's partially because it still feels
Speaker 7: like they're present because we're looking at the theme the
Speaker 7: themes that they kind of kicked up dust around.
Speaker 5: Does that make sense?
Speaker 7: So it doesn't feel like like a bottle episode in
Speaker 7: that same way, it feels like.
Speaker 4: Well and also again because the mark haveb have been
Speaker 4: brought up, I'm gonna I'm going to veil the wheel
Speaker 4: of time reference. And this is only relevant because this
Speaker 4: is something that I have Ali and I have discussed
Speaker 4: extensively in the context of sometimes a writer wants to
Speaker 4: do something where they make they make a plot point
Speaker 4: that is meant to be like, oh my fucking god,
Speaker 4: I never thought that would happen. And now I'm devastated.
Speaker 4: And the Mark Cavern not the people that I have
Speaker 4: ever thought about ever I but I recognize the name,
Speaker 4: particularly because, as I meant a couple weeks ago, I
Speaker 4: was like, JMS likes to do these things where he
Speaker 4: reminds you of something right before it happens. Yeah, which
Speaker 4: now makes me wondering about Warren Keffer having shown up
Speaker 4: all of a sudden talking about shadow ship again. So
Speaker 4: something's gonna happen with that very soon. But the Mark
Speaker 4: were not people that I had really ever thought about.
Speaker 4: But they are people that I was consistently aware of
Speaker 4: because they've been mentioned in a significant way and we
Speaker 4: have seen them multiple times, and they have distinct makeup.
Speaker 4: So when you tell me that there's civilis has been annihilated,
Speaker 4: even though I don't have a deep personal connection to them,
Speaker 4: they're part of the tapestry that has existed on the show.
Speaker 5: They've been present.
Speaker 4: They've been present, even if they have not been hyperactively present.
Speaker 4: So when you take that and tell me, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: these guys that you just accepted as part of the
Speaker 4: background they're gone, now that hurts me a lot.
Speaker 5: Yeah, like we're probably never going to see one again,
Speaker 5: not much or if.
Speaker 4: We do, it's going to be in a shitty refuge.
Speaker 7: Jerry special Mark cabin, much like Survivors Guild episode.
Speaker 4: Whereas if you were to do this in a different
Speaker 4: context where it was just like here are some people
Speaker 4: you've never heard of and now they're dead, it wouldn't
Speaker 4: necessarily have the same effects.
Speaker 7: Actually, the fact that he specifically had them mentioned like
Speaker 7: there might be some Mark habs that survived on like
Speaker 7: other like posts a.
Speaker 4: Couple million, but the civilization has been functionally not.
Speaker 7: Even a couple of million, they said, a couple of millions,
Speaker 7: though they said like there might be some scattered, but
Speaker 7: it's like there down.
Speaker 1: To they're effectively this is effectively gone.
Speaker 4: That is what they said.
Speaker 7: So I feel like that actually might be a setup
Speaker 7: for a Mark ab Survivor's Guilt episode.
Speaker 4: Could and you see if there's any fallout from like oh,
Speaker 4: you're the plague people, well.
Speaker 7: Also like you're what it is to be like the
Speaker 7: last of your species.
Speaker 4: That's called an.
Speaker 5: Ending, I know, and it's so sad. It's like the
Speaker 5: saddest thing you could be.
Speaker 7: So like, yeah, I feel like I feel like he's
Speaker 7: now like I want to play around with that, like
Speaker 7: that's on the table now.
Speaker 4: But I just want to applaud Jams for making me
Speaker 4: really care about these people who I've only ever kind
Speaker 4: of seen in the back. And admittedly part of that
Speaker 4: is also we spent forty five minutes with them this week. Yes, yes,
Speaker 4: you know, and perhaps it would have.
Speaker 3: Been and the doctor our first real I mean, we'd
Speaker 3: met a market before, but like our first real interaction
Speaker 3: was this beautiful, like respectful relationship between Stephen and Lezarin,
Speaker 3: and so that also like they were cool, they were nice,
Speaker 3: they were respectful, Like I just you know, so I
Speaker 3: was like I had someone to hang that on and say,
Speaker 3: if you're representative of these people, which obviously he's not
Speaker 3: because a lot of them think that they're getting the
Speaker 3: plague because of God. But like, you know, even so,
Speaker 3: I was just like I can like these people because
Speaker 3: I like him.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I think that. Yeah, they picked the two representatives. Well,
Speaker 7: it was a learned scholar and a child. It's like
Speaker 7: a learned scholar who is a friend of someone that
Speaker 7: we care about, right, yea who he has mentioned before
Speaker 7: in previous.
Speaker 1: Episodes, literally last episode.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and we also know that doctor Steve does not
Speaker 7: view other species in a negative, negative light. Yeah, we
Speaker 7: know how much he cares about all species all the time,
Speaker 7: which is add which is good and admirable and is
Speaker 7: what he should be doing.
Speaker 5: But like, yeah, the fact that we see this like very.
Speaker 7: Caring even though they have like some you know, conflict,
Speaker 7: the fact that vital respect for each other, and he's
Speaker 7: like a learned person. They picked they picked the two
Speaker 7: the two mark hats very carefully.
Speaker 4: Now, I'm highly conscious that we've been talking for an
Speaker 4: hour and it's early as ship for Jenny. So if
Speaker 4: we can move towards wrapping up and letting you guys
Speaker 4: if you want, I just want to be respectful of
Speaker 4: your time.
Speaker 1: No, I get I.
Speaker 2: I there's only one thing that I specifically wanted to
Speaker 2: bring up, just because people pointed out that I missed
Speaker 2: something in a previous episode, and this is a good
Speaker 2: time to bring it up. Because we saw doctor Steve
Speaker 2: ejecting himself with stems, and I realized every single doctor,
Speaker 2: with the exception of the markab doctor, but every single
Speaker 2: human doctor we've ever spent time, including the one with
Speaker 2: the machine that's how she lost her medical license.
Speaker 1: And No. I mentioned doctor Ben and a doctor.
Speaker 4: That we talked about June Lockhart.
Speaker 1: No, we didn't because so many people in the comments
Speaker 1: were like, you.
Speaker 4: Think the people in the comments are wrong because I
Speaker 4: remember talking about that. I remember that you brought that up.
Speaker 4: But I think it was very we brought up.
Speaker 1: We brought up the President's doctor.
Speaker 7: Yeah, are we going to be dealing with like addiction
Speaker 7: and the medical profession?
Speaker 4: Babylon the pit next time, Babylon.
Speaker 3: That's the name of the next episode.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Yes, I want to bring because I yeah, yeah if
Speaker 2: I if I brought it up last time, then that's great.
Speaker 2: But I don't think I did because the comments were
Speaker 2: just full of you forgot about j Lockhart.
Speaker 1: You forgot about you Lockhart, And I was like, okay, forgot.
Speaker 5: About We should never have forgotten about Art.
Speaker 4: I think she's real. She's so cool.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's gonna be She's going to be an issue.
Speaker 4: We got a June Lockhart machine.
Speaker 7: Now that could be an issue for doctor Steve little
Speaker 7: little addiction issue.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, yeah, or likensance, especially in a wartime Jesus,
Speaker 6: and I also Jesus, I want I'm hoping because.
Speaker 7: It's important to me that trauma is handled well, I'm hope, Like,
Speaker 7: even though I'm like I don't want Delenn to be
Speaker 7: having a difficult time, I'm like, I do want this
Speaker 7: to have ramifications. Yeah, so I'm like anticipating hopefully callbacks.
Speaker 5: To this in a way. Yeah, okay, just because I'm.
Speaker 7: Like, you know, I I one of my pet peeves
Speaker 7: is when like a character goes through something in an
Speaker 7: episode it's like, Wow, that would fundamentally shape me as
Speaker 7: a person, and then they like never talk about it again.
Speaker 3: I literally sent seven or nine hundred. How many people
Speaker 3: were in there? How many Mark ham.
Speaker 1: Were in there?
Speaker 4: At least five hundred I think.
Speaker 7: Say at least I watched five hundred people slowly die,
Speaker 7: including a child that I had become attached to, Like
Speaker 7: there's no way that doesn't fundamentally alter a person, and
Speaker 7: waited to see if it would kill me too, Like yeah,
Speaker 7: there's no way. You I'm just like, it's not like
Speaker 7: I wanted to be brought up every episode or anything,
Speaker 7: but it's like, you know, there's there's a point at
Speaker 7: which I'm like, well, that has to have an impact
Speaker 7: in terms of like how they see the world and
Speaker 7: their behavior after that, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: I agree with you. I agree with you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, what a what a star?
Speaker 4: What a star she is?
Speaker 5: God, what a star.
Speaker 4: I can't wait to have to Previously on this one.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, people talked about that.
Speaker 2: They're like, it's funny, that's funny, and every everybody was
Speaker 2: all about how Gus has to make it funny.
Speaker 1: I have to animate it funny. Think about me too,
Speaker 1: Compassion for.
Speaker 3: Me, compassion for Johnny.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna make you animates some fucked up ship and
Speaker 4: then the child keels over.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's just gonna be you trolling Jenny the whole time, is.
Speaker 4: What I try to do in the previously. Sometimes sometimes
Speaker 4: I just go, like, you know what, I'm gonna make
Speaker 4: Jenny do some terrible I'm gonna gave a horrible day.
Speaker 4: It's going to ruin my co host day. I'm gonna
Speaker 4: make my friend miserable.
Speaker 5: And that's real friendship.
Speaker 1: I can't do that because I can't make my hands touched.
Speaker 4: Oh no, is this Bermuda this? Okay? Yeah, okay, that's different.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, flash Vagina and everybody.
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, well all right, I don't.
Speaker 1: Think I have anything more to bring up with you guys.
Speaker 7: So all right, thank you so much for the depression today,
Speaker 7: you guys, that was really solid.
Speaker 1: Oh welcome. I'm so glad I had you here for
Speaker 1: another dead child.
Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of that going on.
Speaker 7: You really, You're like, I insist Ali be here for
Speaker 7: every dead child on the show, and you're like, let
Speaker 7: me make Ali talk about like some deeply upsetting topics.
Speaker 1: And that's my plan. Yeah, that's my plan all the time.
Speaker 4: I guess we'll see you tomorrow.
Speaker 5: This show isn't political.
Speaker 10: Bye bye ah, my friends, you have reached the most
Speaker 10: dangerous part of our journey, the Gray Council.
Speaker 11: Here we speak of things that must not be spoken, secrets, betrayals, spoilers.
Speaker 11: If you are not ready, turned back now.
Speaker 8: But if you dare to proceed, I promise you it
Speaker 8: will benficent, we get a Baldi.
Speaker 2: I don't know that there's a lot spoilers to talk
Speaker 2: about this one. I accept it like that's it, the markab.
Speaker 2: We never see them again there, right? Oh I did Oh,
Speaker 2: I meant to bring that up while they were here. Sorry,
Speaker 2: my notes get all hidden on the screen over there.
Speaker 1: But I'll just bring this up now. Did you see
Speaker 1: the bottom? Yes?
Speaker 3: I did, Yes, I did. I almost, yes, I did,
Speaker 3: and I almost brought it up too, and then I
Speaker 3: was like, because, well, actually, if we brought it up
Speaker 3: to that, we probably probably would have gone off for
Speaker 3: quite a while. But yes, okay, well we'll share it
Speaker 3: with the audience now and maybe we can share it
Speaker 3: with them later.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the use of Markhabs was definitely not a reference
Speaker 3: to Scientology in any way, manner, shape, or form. This
Speaker 3: is what JMS says, And then he says, there's absolutely
Speaker 3: and then he says it again. There is absolutely, positively
Speaker 3: no Scientology link or reference in the same Markabs. In
Speaker 3: the name Markabs, I find the organization generally abhorrent. Go jamis.
Speaker 3: And then the third one. I had no idea that
Speaker 3: scientologists used an alien group called Markab and frankly would
Speaker 3: have changed it if I had known.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I just think that's really funny. Obviously, several
Speaker 2: people brought it up, and he was very vehement, and
Speaker 2: I feel bad you come up with a name. He
Speaker 2: made up a name, and it just happened to be
Speaker 2: a name that LRH also.
Speaker 3: Also made up. I've been also made up.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, you don't understand.
Speaker 2: I don't know enough about Scientology he got the information
Speaker 2: from the universe. I don't know what they believe about
Speaker 2: how he knows all about it.
Speaker 3: He took a bet. He took a bet from Robert
Speaker 3: Hyland and said, who said, I bet you can't make
Speaker 3: a religion, And he said, yes I can.
Speaker 1: Okay, I used to know about some of their mythology,
Speaker 1: but I can't remember all of it.
Speaker 3: Anyway, you should be really careful about researching here because
Speaker 3: as soon as you start researching it here, I know
Speaker 3: that the flyers start showing up on your doors and whatever.
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna like, okay, well anyway, I'm not gonna
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna say where I am, but they're everywhere
Speaker 3: all over time. If I say, I can see scientology
Speaker 3: pretty close for my house, it doesn't matter. I just
Speaker 3: live in LA.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, wow, anyway, I just I was gonna
Speaker 2: bring that up. I thought that was funny. But yeah,
Speaker 2: they might still be talking.
Speaker 3: I know, but yes, I wanted to bring that up too.
Speaker 3: So there, but their theory about Keffer dead on, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I know, they're like, well the hot shot, but also
Speaker 3: just like we got this little like glimpse of Keffer
Speaker 3: right now because we're going to be there must be something. Yeah,
Speaker 3: like they just they just killed off well except what
Speaker 3: they didn't say was they just we saw the Mark
Speaker 3: cabs and then they killed off all the Mars Mark cabs.
Speaker 3: I wanted to say, like we saw Keeper and then
Speaker 3: they're going to kill off CAP. They have not figured
Speaker 3: that part. No, they have not.
Speaker 1: They have high hopes for in the future, like you
Speaker 1: know you're.
Speaker 3: Feeling, Yeah, he's not going but they were right on
Speaker 3: about GM getting forced into it.
Speaker 1: Yep, pretty much.
Speaker 2: Ye, yep, They've got that, They've figured that out, but
Speaker 2: I'm still not going to confirm it until yes, he
Speaker 2: blowed up.
Speaker 3: You do have something very exciting coming up next week, though,
Speaker 3: Gus is going to lose his fucking ship next week.
Speaker 1: For Divided Loyals.
Speaker 3: Who comes back, isn't Lida? I know?
Speaker 1: Yes, oh yeah, I just realized.
Speaker 2: That because I was thinking of the girl kissing. But yes,
Speaker 2: of course shows up. Yes, yes, yes, the lack of
Speaker 2: girl kissing they're not going.
Speaker 3: To be it's not actual girl kissing, but yeah them,
Speaker 3: but yes, and then and then Lida is back.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we should talk about this, probably a deep but
Speaker 2: a I don't want to tell them that Talia doesn't
Speaker 2: return after that, because then it's going to be late
Speaker 2: lyving it open.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we can confirm it.
Speaker 2: After uh Bester talks about dissecting her in a future episode.
Speaker 2: But yeah, and I don't know if it's going to
Speaker 2: be I can't remember. I'll have to read the synopsis
Speaker 2: if it's going to be clear that Lida returns until later,
Speaker 2: because she's in the episode next week.
Speaker 3: But no, no, I don't want to make it sound
Speaker 3: like it's actually that back. I just I think, yeah,
Speaker 3: I think that's not just the fact that she shows up.
Speaker 3: He's not gonna don't.
Speaker 1: Lose a ship.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I don't want to imply that she will continue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, she becomes main cast.
Speaker 3: I know. My god, oh my god.
Speaker 2: I'm kind of relieved that they finally have twigged on
Speaker 2: to uh Bruce and Delenne because that's been driving me crazy, Like.
Speaker 1: How you ship everyone stroking his face for.
Speaker 3: Even stroking her face? She was like, let's just normalize
Speaker 3: face stroking.
Speaker 1: Yes, they're on their way to smooch town.
Speaker 3: It's just slow and gentle.
Speaker 1: It's I know, like it's not like hot and heavy.
Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite romances. Ever, and it's just
Speaker 1: this slow build.
Speaker 2: Of people who meet and they like each other, and
Speaker 2: then they like each other and they like each other
Speaker 2: and then they can't.
Speaker 1: Like it's not an epic story, but I love.
Speaker 3: It so much. No, it's wonderful. And it's also like,
Speaker 3: I mean, I think, what, what does it justice or
Speaker 3: what does that that choice?
Speaker 4: Justice?
Speaker 3: For me is that you know, it's a political I'll
Speaker 3: say it. It's a political show. First, it's a war
Speaker 3: and sci fi show. Second, yes, yeah, and it is
Speaker 3: a soap opera. Third, like it's really not you know,
Speaker 3: and that so he's just like, these are the in
Speaker 3: the relationships are super important, but not in a typical
Speaker 3: soap opera kind of way, and so you know, and
Speaker 3: like from the beginning he's like, this is all about
Speaker 3: character and relationships character first and so and that's true.
Speaker 3: So I feel like him not making it this like
Speaker 3: epic love story kind of thing is really just both
Speaker 3: does a justice and is also just realistic.
Speaker 1: Yeahs realistic.
Speaker 2: It feels I don't know, it feels more precious to
Speaker 2: me because it takes a long time to get there
Speaker 2: and it never gets I mean, they have that moment
Speaker 2: at the end of season three, we're at wan Anna
Speaker 2: comes back where they have that disagreement, but there's there's
Speaker 2: never a like, oh, we've been broken apart for like,
Speaker 2: it's no, they just yeah, their friendship gets deeper and
Speaker 2: deeper and deeper and deeper, and then they're in love
Speaker 2: and they respect them like each other and I love it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: We decided in one of my servers a while back
Speaker 2: that Sheridan is very lesbian coded like, yes, he worships
Speaker 2: his wife and he's friends with his X.
Speaker 1: He's totally top lesbian.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, that's hilarious. Oh my god, I love that.
Speaker 2: There's other spoiler things, uh, the stems obviously that is
Speaker 2: definitely going to come up. And yeah, they've called I
Speaker 2: might have highlighted it too much, but really there were
Speaker 2: like thirty comments about how I didn't bring up doctor Roslin,
Speaker 2: so uh not.
Speaker 1: No, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't think it was Rosalin because I'm Bottle Star
Speaker 2: Galactica is on my brain right now.
Speaker 3: Laura Laura ro Is BSG. But let's see quality mercy
Speaker 3: doctor Laura Rosen, Laura Roslin, Laura Rosen.
Speaker 1: It's so close.
Speaker 3: Because Laura Roslin is not from the original SG she
Speaker 3: was a character created by Yeah, Yeah, she's not in
Speaker 3: I don't think that the name was Yeah, I don't
Speaker 3: think the name was ever pulled from from anybody in
Speaker 3: the original I'm pretty sure she was created by Ron Moore,
Speaker 3: and I'm sure Ron Moore didn't intend it to be
Speaker 3: like stealing Laura Rosen. But I'm like, why not? Well,
Speaker 3: I mean, we know Ron Moore was writing BSG right now,
Speaker 3: because I mean writing sorry, not b S gen writing track, yes,
Speaker 3: but specifically specifically Deep Space nine. Yes, yes, and he
Speaker 3: was you know, I mean he was the creator of
Speaker 3: the Dominion War, so.
Speaker 1: You know, around your Yoda doll.
Speaker 3: I'm like, you know, will help me find the name.
Speaker 3: It's like, this is I don't I am so bad
Speaker 3: about being on camera because I just like speak in
Speaker 3: my in my real anyway. Yes, so he was, so
Speaker 3: I think knowing that that. Obviously, Ron Moore was watching
Speaker 3: this at the time because he was being tasked with
Speaker 3: crafting a the long term story, the We're arching story
Speaker 3: arcs in Deep Space nine and then BSG DS nine.
Speaker 3: It's really fucking hard to use all.
Speaker 1: Of these two BSG D S nine B five. It's
Speaker 1: just tng. What's going on too much.
Speaker 3: Their voyager isn't but I know exactly. But in any case,
Speaker 3: I do think that Ron Moore must have been watching
Speaker 3: this at the time. And then you know also because
Speaker 3: there are some elements too, there are things in this
Speaker 3: that show up in his version of Battlestar, there are
Speaker 3: things we see. I mean, and I I will take
Speaker 3: you to the grave that that was one of the
Speaker 3: best series ever made ever in the history of the world.
Speaker 3: I love that show so much. BG is amazing.
Speaker 1: It's wonderful.
Speaker 2: Although I like I started doing reactions, I don't know
Speaker 2: if I'm going to continue them. But on my channel,
Speaker 2: I have not revisited that show since I watched it
Speaker 2: the first time at all, because it's so perfect in
Speaker 2: my brain that I've been a little bit nervous to
Speaker 2: touch it because what if I don't like it is
Speaker 2: holding up for you so far, I mean I've only
Speaker 2: to the mini series again and one other episode, but yeah,
Speaker 2: it's so far holding up.
Speaker 1: And if I immediately immediately felt my crush on Starbuck
Speaker 1: Return and it was like, oh, oh.
Speaker 2: Gosh, yes right away.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, we showed it to our eldest a
Speaker 3: couple of years ago and he's desperate to get back
Speaker 3: into it. He's just like, what are we going to
Speaker 3: watch the rest of it? Because we didn't. We haven't
Speaker 3: finished the series with him. But he loved it and
Speaker 3: it held up for him and it was, you know,
Speaker 3: made long before he was born, and he was like,
Speaker 3: this is great. Not only are the effects great, but
Speaker 3: the storytelling is incredible, and yeah, storytelling is amazing and
Speaker 3: the characters are great. Okay, back to be fine.
Speaker 2: The other thing, I just they kept pointing out there's
Speaker 2: a if you were watching this without having watched the episode,
Speaker 2: this is the first we see of that alien.
Speaker 1: I believe that has the weird.
Speaker 2: Like a what do you call the nose of like
Speaker 2: a mosquito. Thank you, there's a creature in behind his
Speaker 2: mask and a ProBiS. And they pointed him out each time.
Speaker 2: In the Lurkers guy, they keep saying, the alien with
Speaker 2: the beret reading apparatus is this Sandman reference? And he
Speaker 2: kept saying, no, no, no, it totally is, because later
Speaker 2: on we're going to find out that that character is
Speaker 2: named the game, which it's Neil Gaiman, which is not
Speaker 2: a pleasant thing to know.
Speaker 3: It's in the costume. No, he's just using it. It
Speaker 3: is a game.
Speaker 2: The name the name of that species is the game, right,
Speaker 2: so it's obviously a Sandman reference. And the fact is,
Speaker 2: and again it's just a sad thing because I'm assuming he.
Speaker 1: Didn't know what a monster he was.
Speaker 2: Neil Gamon writes the forward to JMS his autobiography and
Speaker 2: the only other from here on out until the end
Speaker 2: of the series.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: JMS writes every single episode except for one. The one
Speaker 2: episode he doesn't write is written by Neil Game.
Speaker 3: I know, and he obviously didn't know, but like, I
Speaker 3: mean no, like this is years before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, so.
Speaker 2: Anyway, it is a Sandman like so he denies things
Speaker 2: sometimes and like why are you why?
Speaker 3: And also because like people knew that they were friends
Speaker 3: at this time, they were both writing comics, you know,
Speaker 3: at the same time, Like it wasn't like, yeah.
Speaker 2: He denied the Lord of the Rings quote, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: that's what Why would you deny that?
Speaker 1: It's so clearly a Lord of the Rings quote.
Speaker 2: There's not much spoiler to talk about this because it
Speaker 2: is it's not a bottle episode in that I think
Speaker 2: the way Ali worded it is right, like we are
Speaker 2: the themes continue, but from here on out, this episode
Speaker 2: doesn't really like we will, the Mark Cab will come
Speaker 2: up in conversation again. I think in a future episode
Speaker 2: they're going to destroy the jump gate near the Markab
Speaker 2: planet for a reason that I can't remember, but they're
Speaker 2: going to like it. Sure, it is going to choose
Speaker 2: that one to destroy because people keep using it to
Speaker 2: go to Mark Cab and steal stuff. He's just like,
Speaker 2: I hate Gray Robbers robbers, so let's just destroy that
Speaker 2: jumping so that, like to preserve the planet. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think that's it for conversations too for this one.
Speaker 3: I think so too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, next next week will be a big one for
Speaker 2: conversation too, because, like we said, Lida and not quite
Speaker 2: but very heavily implied girl kissing right, tragic lesbian dead
Speaker 2: lesbian trope blah blah blah, that's gonna happen.
Speaker 1: But it was the nineties.
Speaker 3: Yes it was cover and I'll pretend it doesn't it
Speaker 3: isn't real.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think that's it though for today. So yeah,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us for this upbeat, happy,
Speaker 2: peppy light episode. And if you like this discussion, you
Speaker 2: might like to see our reaction, which is up on YouTube.
Speaker 2: You can join our Patreon get the full unedited version
Speaker 2: of it. You can get early access and add free
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Speaker 2: join Discord and join our super secret, top secret, don't
Speaker 2: tell anybody, And then you can help out and get
Speaker 2: the previous these early and get a bunch of stuff, and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, and like to subscribe and hype us
Speaker 2: Up and do all that stuff, and we'll see you
Speaker 2: next time.