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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two

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<v Speaker 1>of our series about the murders of Harry and Meghan Twos. Robin,

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<v Speaker 1>do you want to catch everyone up from what we

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<v Speaker 1>talked about in our previous episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this is the first case that we've covered on

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<v Speaker 2>the Path Went Chili from Wales. It takes place at

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<v Speaker 2>a farm outside a small village called one Hoari. The

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<v Speaker 2>victims are sixty five year old Hairy Twos and his

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<v Speaker 2>sixty seven year old wife, Megan Twos. We have a

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<v Speaker 2>daughter named Cheryl who has been in a relationship for

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<v Speaker 2>ten years with her boyfriend Jonathan Jones. In July of

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty three, Harry and Meghan were reported missing after

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<v Speaker 2>they seemingly disappeared from their farmhouse. But shortly after the

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<v Speaker 2>police launched an investigation, they wound up discovering Harry and

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<v Speaker 2>Meghan's bodies inside a cowshd on the property, and they

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<v Speaker 2>had both been shot once in the head with a shotgun,

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<v Speaker 2>and it seemed apparent that because there were no signs

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<v Speaker 2>of forest entry, that they invited the killer into their

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<v Speaker 2>home and were probably in the midst of serving them

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<v Speaker 2>tea when for one reason or another, the couple were

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<v Speaker 2>taken out to the cowshd and both fatally shot. The

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<v Speaker 2>police immediately focused on Jonathan Jones, as they thought he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't seem emotional enough about the death of his in laws,

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<v Speaker 2>and they wound up finding a thumbprint on a saucer

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<v Speaker 2>beneath the tea cup that was found on the Tuesdays

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<v Speaker 2>dining table, But Jonathan argued that because he frequently visited

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<v Speaker 2>the house that he could have left the thumb print

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<v Speaker 2>there on a previous occasion, or when he arrived at

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<v Speaker 2>the murder scene, he may have been in such a

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<v Speaker 2>state of shock that he could have touched the saucer

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<v Speaker 2>without even realizing it and has no recollection of it.

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<v Speaker 2>The police still felt that he wanted to kill Harry

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<v Speaker 2>and Meghan because Cheryl stood to inherit their one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and fifty thousand pound estate and Jonathan really wanted the money,

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<v Speaker 2>so they argued that even though they lived in a

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<v Speaker 2>district of London, that Jonathan made the two hundred male

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<v Speaker 2>trip from London to lo Hari and killed the Twoses

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<v Speaker 2>before coming back without his wife even noticing. He didn't

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<v Speaker 2>really have a strong alibi, but there was also no

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<v Speaker 2>evidence placing Jonathan and lan Hari either other than the

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<v Speaker 2>thumb print on the saucer, and the murder weapon was

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<v Speaker 2>also never found. But in spite of this, the police

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<v Speaker 2>still charged him with a double homicide and Jonathan went

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<v Speaker 2>on trial and was found guilty by majority of ten

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<v Speaker 2>to two. But immediately after the trial, the judge expressed

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<v Speaker 2>his concern about the conviction, saying that he had doubts

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<v Speaker 2>about Jonathan's guilt and even wrote a letter about that

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<v Speaker 2>expressing his concerns, and Jonathan was in prison for about

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<v Speaker 2>a year before his case was heard before the Court

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<v Speaker 2>of Appeal and they decided to overturn his conviction and

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<v Speaker 2>he was finally released from prison. So, for the longest time,

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<v Speaker 2>the police still maintained that Jonathan was the killer and

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<v Speaker 2>they didn't decide to look at any other suspects or

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<v Speaker 2>any other potential leads. But in recent years they have

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<v Speaker 2>finally changed this mindset, and in December of twenty twenty five,

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<v Speaker 2>just a few weeks before we recorded this episode, they

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<v Speaker 2>announced that they had arrested an eighty six year old

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<v Speaker 2>man on suspicion of murder in this case. By at

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<v Speaker 2>the time of this recording, they still haven't revealed this

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<v Speaker 2>man's name. They haven't said anything about what new evidence

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<v Speaker 2>led to this arrest, and he has also been released

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<v Speaker 2>on bail. He has not been formally charged yet, and

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<v Speaker 2>thus far the police are being very secretive about this case,

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<v Speaker 2>and we still don't know at this point if this

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<v Speaker 2>man will ever be formally charged or if we'll ever

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<v Speaker 2>learned information about who he is and what led him

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<v Speaker 2>to becoming a suspect on the police's radars. So we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to spend the second part of this series talking

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<v Speaker 2>about the case and these new implications. So I've covered

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<v Speaker 2>a number of cases on this podcast which have never

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<v Speaker 2>reached definitive conclusion because the authorities initially arrested or convicted

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<v Speaker 2>the wrong person. And some of those cases you get

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<v Speaker 2>the impression that investigators developed serious tunnel vision and ignored

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<v Speaker 2>obvious leads to focus on the wrong individual. But in

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<v Speaker 2>the case of Harry and Megan TWS, it seems like

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<v Speaker 2>there was very little to work with at all. I

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<v Speaker 2>definitely believe that on the basis of the evidence against him,

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<v Speaker 2>Jonathan Jones never should have gone to trial for these murders,

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<v Speaker 2>let alone been convicted. But at the same time, I

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<v Speaker 2>can understand why the South Wales police would have zeroed

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<v Speaker 2>in on him as a potential suspect, since nothing about

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<v Speaker 2>this crime makes any sense. It's sound as like investigators

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<v Speaker 2>had reached a complete dead end, so when they discovered

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<v Speaker 2>Jonathan's thumb print on the saucer on the twos's dinner table,

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<v Speaker 2>they decided to focus all their energies on him, even

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<v Speaker 2>though there was really no other evidence to implicate Jonathan

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<v Speaker 2>or place him at the murder scene. I guess on

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<v Speaker 2>the surface, the idea of him murdering his in laws

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<v Speaker 2>to cash in on his girlfriends one hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 2>thousand pounds inheritance might not seem like an implausible motive,

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<v Speaker 2>especially when you consider that there doesn't seem to be

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<v Speaker 2>a discernible motive for anyone else to have committed this crime.

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<v Speaker 2>This seemed like the work of some cold calculated assassin,

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<v Speaker 2>as both Harry and Meghan were shot in the back

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<v Speaker 2>of the head execution style. Who would want to target

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<v Speaker 2>this seemingly harmless elderly couple. While Jonathan had his conviction

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<v Speaker 2>quashed and was released from prison, he technically was an

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<v Speaker 2>exonerated per se and declared to be factually innocent. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not like there was some slam dunk DNA evidence to

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<v Speaker 2>clear him. But as we're going to talk about a

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<v Speaker 2>bit later, the recent arrest of another suspect on suspicion

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<v Speaker 2>of murder might finally lead to Jonathan receiving full vindication.

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<v Speaker 2>I hate to refer to any wrongfully imprisoned individual as lucky,

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<v Speaker 2>but Jonathan actually lucked out better than most people in

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<v Speaker 2>his situation, since he was released only a year after

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<v Speaker 2>he was originally convicted. However, this was still an extremely

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<v Speaker 2>traumatic ordeal for Jonathan and his loved ones, and I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think they've ever really recovered.

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<v Speaker 3>No, how could you, Because even though he was released

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<v Speaker 3>a year later and that they had actually squashed or

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<v Speaker 3>responged the charges against him, the reality is is that

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<v Speaker 3>the police and many family members still believe that they

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<v Speaker 3>had gotten the right man. Why would you go to

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<v Speaker 3>all the links of taking him to trial, of making

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<v Speaker 3>sure that he was convicted if you weren't one hundred

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<v Speaker 3>percent sure? And so I think that the loom of

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<v Speaker 3>people suspecting him, the police treating it again from the

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<v Speaker 3>get go. Once he was released, the police told Jonathan

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<v Speaker 3>and Cheryl, guess what we're not hunting for anyone else

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<v Speaker 3>because we're convinced we got the right man. So that

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<v Speaker 3>wait for anyone, much less two new parents, people who

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<v Speaker 3>had just lost their parents. All of that has to

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<v Speaker 3>be so heartbreaking. And to think they were a strange

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<v Speaker 3>from a lot of their other family that could have

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<v Speaker 3>been support for them as well.

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<v Speaker 1>And can you imagine, like it's nineteen ninety three when

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<v Speaker 1>this took place, and I mean, I don't remember what

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<v Speaker 1>year forensic files came out, but as far as true

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<v Speaker 1>crime shows and the public's knowledge of investigations and the

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<v Speaker 1>fallibility of police officers, there was more trust back then

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<v Speaker 1>in that if you were accused of a crime, you

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<v Speaker 1>most certainly were guilty, otherwise they wouldn't be wasting resources

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<v Speaker 1>taking you to trial. Now we're a lot more discerning

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<v Speaker 1>when we look at these cases because we've seen so

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<v Speaker 1>many wrongful convictions where police got tunnel vision, the prosecutor

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<v Speaker 1>got it wrong, and these people are actually innocent, and

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<v Speaker 1>some of them are still in prison, like Tommy Ziegeler

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<v Speaker 1>Robin's pat case. So I think when you look at

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<v Speaker 1>it through the lens of nineteen ninety three, or when

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<v Speaker 1>the trial happened, originally in nineteen ninety five, you have

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<v Speaker 1>these family members going he did it. Maybe they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>have the evidence, but otherwise they wouldn't have brought him

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<v Speaker 1>to trial.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I can only imagine there was a major social

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<v Speaker 2>stigma for Jonathan and Cheryl after he was released from prison,

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<v Speaker 2>because the police never did say made a mistake or

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<v Speaker 2>exonerated him or said he was innocent. So I'm sure

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<v Speaker 2>he had to go on trying to live a normal

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<v Speaker 2>life again, raising a child, with a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>out there who were probably still convinced that he was

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<v Speaker 2>a murderer who got off easy.

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<v Speaker 1>They lived in London, right, and this took place in

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<v Speaker 1>Lanhari and Wales. So do we know what type of

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<v Speaker 1>coverage this case got in London?

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<v Speaker 2>A pretty decent amount because they were originally from there.

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<v Speaker 2>And I remember when I researched my trail in cold Episode,

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<v Speaker 2>I found a lot of old newspaper coverage in at

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<v Speaker 2>newspapers dot Com and a lot of London newspapers. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>even though it took place in a small village in Wales,

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<v Speaker 2>it got coverage all over the United Kingdom.

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<v Speaker 1>So by the time Jonathan was arrested, Cheryl had become pregnant,

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<v Speaker 1>but the whole situation caused severe post traumatic stress disorder,

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<v Speaker 1>and she began to suffer from a rare condition during

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<v Speaker 1>her pregnancy, which caused a cartilage between the bones and

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<v Speaker 1>her body to waste away. After Cheryl's son was born,

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<v Speaker 1>the cartilage started to recover, but not throughout her entire body.

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<v Speaker 1>As a result, Cheryl partially lost her hearing, and to

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<v Speaker 1>this day it's very difficult for her to walk without support.

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<v Speaker 1>By all accounts, Cheryl was usually a shy, quiet woman,

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<v Speaker 1>but Jonathan's wrongful incarceration turned her into a fighter, and

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<v Speaker 1>her loyalty to him helped insure his release. This alienated

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<v Speaker 1>her from the rest of her extended family, who were

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<v Speaker 1>very outspoken about their belief that Cheryl was helping get

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<v Speaker 1>a killer out of prison. However, Cheryl maintained that she

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<v Speaker 1>and Jonathan both had a very close relationship with her parents,

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<v Speaker 1>whereas those other family members barely saw Harry and Meghan

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<v Speaker 1>while they were alive, and only started coming out of

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<v Speaker 1>the woodwork when their murders received national headlines. Of course,

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<v Speaker 1>fe ordeal pretty much caused Cheryl and Jonathan to lose

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<v Speaker 1>all faith in the justice system. And during a two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand and eight interview with Wales Online, Jonathan stated, quote,

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<v Speaker 1>we may be walking down the street and I'm eating

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<v Speaker 1>a Mars bar, for example, and I will put a

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<v Speaker 1>rapper in the bin and Cheryl will pull it out

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<v Speaker 1>in case the crime is committed nearby and the police

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<v Speaker 1>would come along and find my DNA. That's the sort

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<v Speaker 1>of paranoia that's still with both of us to some extent.

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<v Speaker 3>End quote, how incredibly heavy to think about when you

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<v Speaker 3>think about this idea that they can't even go on

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<v Speaker 3>a walk without it being in the really the forefront

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<v Speaker 3>of Cheryl's mind, that I have to protect him still,

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<v Speaker 3>that it happened once, it could easily happen again, that

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<v Speaker 3>he could be falsely accused of something, and I sure

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<v Speaker 3>don't want there to be any kind of evidence that

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<v Speaker 3>could link him to this location. And she's not doing

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<v Speaker 3>that because she thinks there's any guilt there. She's doing

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<v Speaker 3>it because it is this PTSD or complex post traumatic

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<v Speaker 3>stress disorder where she truly lives in fear that another

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<v Speaker 3>bungle is going to happen in some kind of investigation

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<v Speaker 3>and her husband's going to be taken away from her again,

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<v Speaker 3>and so that speaks to kind of the emotional weight

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<v Speaker 3>that she's under even decades later. But think about this.

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<v Speaker 3>That emotional weight is what's killing her body. It's that

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<v Speaker 3>stress and that trauma that is physically eating her and

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<v Speaker 3>changing the way that her body's able to function. And

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<v Speaker 3>so it's you see physically on Cheryl the weight that

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<v Speaker 3>this case had on them. And like she said, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>those two were very close to her mom and dad.

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<v Speaker 3>But when the trial came, and when she was being

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<v Speaker 3>an advocate for her future husband and the father of

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<v Speaker 3>her child and for a person that her parents loved,

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<v Speaker 3>then these people start coming out. They're like, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>that's an uncle I haven't seen in four years. This

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<v Speaker 3>guy hadn't talked to my parents in ten years, and

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<v Speaker 3>yet here he is the biggest advocate against my husband,

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<v Speaker 3>and you know, my parents number one advocate in fan

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<v Speaker 3>to make sure justice is done. I can't imagine what

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<v Speaker 3>the estrangements, plus this kind of almost false affection for

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<v Speaker 3>her parents must have felt.

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<v Speaker 1>Like Robin, was it polychondritis? Is that what she was

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<v Speaker 1>suffering from?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not entirely sure because I didn't put it in

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<v Speaker 2>the script, so I'm guessing I didn't get a specific

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<v Speaker 2>term when I did my original research for the script,

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<v Speaker 2>but are you looking it up now? Is that.

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<v Speaker 1>No. I did that specialization in autoimmune diseases, and that

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<v Speaker 1>is one that causes wasting of cartilage. So I was

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<v Speaker 1>just curious if that's what it was, especially because most

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<v Speaker 1>autoimmune diseases happen in women, and most of them happened

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<v Speaker 1>after a significant trauma, so all of that would line

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<v Speaker 1>up with that being possibility.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that would make sense. I do remember when I

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<v Speaker 2>read that interview with Cheryl, it just the article just

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<v Speaker 2>said it was a condition that caused her cartilage to

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<v Speaker 2>get weak in but I don't think it actually gave

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<v Speaker 2>the specific term. So the fact that Jonathan and Cheryl

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<v Speaker 2>were so close to Harry and Meghan and often visited

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<v Speaker 2>their farm makes it seem plausible that Jonathan's thumbprint could

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<v Speaker 2>have wound up on that saucer on a previous occasion

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<v Speaker 2>prior to the murders. Cordatively, Jonathan could have touched the

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<v Speaker 2>saucer when he traveled to the farmhouse after the murders

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<v Speaker 2>and not even realized it without the thumb print. The

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<v Speaker 2>other alleged evidence against Jonathan was incredibly weak, such as

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<v Speaker 2>him supposedly not reacting much when he learned that Harry's

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<v Speaker 2>body had been found. It seemed like the prosecution's case

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<v Speaker 2>was based around discrediting Jonathan's alibi that he was in

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<v Speaker 2>Orpington on the day of the crime. But the problem

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<v Speaker 2>is that they didn't actually offer much evidence which proved

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<v Speaker 2>that Jonathan was in Longhi committing the crime during that

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<v Speaker 2>time period. Remember, traveling from Orpington to Long Harian back

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<v Speaker 2>is a nearly four hundred mile round trip and it

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<v Speaker 2>would be pretty difficult to do so without being seen

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<v Speaker 2>by any eye witnesses or leaving a paper trail or

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<v Speaker 2>physical evidence behind. It's one thing if no witnesses were

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<v Speaker 2>called seeing Jonathan in Orpington, a section of Greater London

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<v Speaker 2>which has a population of around ninety thousand, but in

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<v Speaker 2>a small village like on Hai. I think that a

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<v Speaker 2>distinctive six foot five individual like Jonathan would have stood

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<v Speaker 2>out a lot more. Yet no one reported seeing him

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<v Speaker 2>there that day.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's really interesting. You look at this idea that yes,

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<v Speaker 3>he was alone during the day and he didn't really

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<v Speaker 3>have an alibi witness that could help place him somewhere.

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00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:15.720
<v Speaker 3>No one else was able to say We saw Jonathan

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00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:18.919
<v Speaker 3>on this route via a car, We saw him on

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00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:21.759
<v Speaker 3>this route via a train, We saw him in this

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00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:25.559
<v Speaker 3>tiny town. Even though he's a distinct man, right, he's

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00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:29.960
<v Speaker 3>very tall. I just I don't see it. I don't

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<v Speaker 3>see how he's going to love on Cheryl, tell her goodbye,

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<v Speaker 3>go murder her parents when his wife's expecting a baby,

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<v Speaker 3>their first baby. No way, there's just no way. They

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00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:45.399
<v Speaker 3>were more valuable to them alive than they were deceased.

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<v Speaker 3>Even when you look at the financial support, when you

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00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:51.039
<v Speaker 3>think about my parents could help us with daycare. My

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00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:54.080
<v Speaker 3>parents could help us each year. You know, my parents

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00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:58.399
<v Speaker 3>could long term be you know, caregivers for him when

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00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:01.919
<v Speaker 3>we're at work, whatever it is. They could have made

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00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:04.440
<v Speaker 3>plans with their parents to be far more profitable to

279
00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:07.840
<v Speaker 3>them than a one time inheritance that wasn't even you know,

280
00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:09.519
<v Speaker 3>it was a lot of money, don't get me wrong,

281
00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:13.000
<v Speaker 3>but you know, two hundred thousand dollars back in nineteen

282
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<v Speaker 3>ninety three. But is it worth killing them over And

283
00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:18.519
<v Speaker 3>when you look at the idea that Cheryl had a

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00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:21.600
<v Speaker 3>business plan, she was a very motivated individual, that Jonathan

285
00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:24.399
<v Speaker 3>was super supportive, that they seem to really have their

286
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:27.120
<v Speaker 3>life put together. I say absolutely not.

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00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.639
<v Speaker 1>That's the tricky thing about alibis a guilty person who

288
00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:34.399
<v Speaker 1>commits a crime might go the extra mile to fabricate

289
00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:38.480
<v Speaker 1>an alibi for himself, whereas a completely innocent person is

290
00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:41.240
<v Speaker 1>just going to be living out a routine, ordinary day

291
00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:45.120
<v Speaker 1>and not thinking too much about their actions. If Jonathan's

292
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:49.080
<v Speaker 1>account is accurate, then his day was completely unremarkable, as

293
00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:51.799
<v Speaker 1>he spent most of his time alone during such mundane

294
00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.799
<v Speaker 1>tasks as looking for offices, walking around, and watching television

295
00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:59.200
<v Speaker 1>in his flat. Jonathan said that he briefly spoke to

296
00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:02.440
<v Speaker 1>some lift engine years in his building around the approximate

297
00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:05.679
<v Speaker 1>time period his in laws were likely murdered, and if

298
00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:08.360
<v Speaker 1>they'd been able to corroborate his story, this would have

299
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:12.000
<v Speaker 1>proven that Jonathan couldn't have committed the crime. When these

300
00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:14.720
<v Speaker 1>lift engineers were called upon to testify at the trial,

301
00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:17.679
<v Speaker 1>they did not recall speaking to Jonathan that day, But

302
00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:19.960
<v Speaker 1>keep in mind that this was years after the facts,

303
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.240
<v Speaker 1>so it's not surprising that they may not have been

304
00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:25.639
<v Speaker 1>able to recall such a mundane event from an ordinary day.

305
00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:30.360
<v Speaker 1>I know that the trial judge, Justice Richard Rugier helped

306
00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:33.519
<v Speaker 1>pave the path from the quashing of Jonathan's conviction when

307
00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:36.399
<v Speaker 1>he sent off letters openly expressing his surprise at the

308
00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:41.000
<v Speaker 1>guilty verdict. But ironically enough, Rougier may have inadvertently paved

309
00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:43.840
<v Speaker 1>the way for this verdict when he gave the instructions

310
00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:48.039
<v Speaker 1>to the jury before deliberations. Part of Jonathan's alibi was

311
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:50.240
<v Speaker 1>that he had been watching a cricket match on TV

312
00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:53.080
<v Speaker 1>at his flat in the afternoon of the crime, and

313
00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:57.200
<v Speaker 1>during this testimony, Jonathan provided specific details about the match,

314
00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:01.799
<v Speaker 1>including how the commentators had mentioned stoppages for rain well

315
00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:05.359
<v Speaker 1>during his instructions, just as Rugier told the jury that

316
00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:09.119
<v Speaker 1>there'd been no rain stoppages during that particular match, which

317
00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:12.519
<v Speaker 1>was a bit misleading. Jonathan never said he witnessed any

318
00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:16.359
<v Speaker 1>stoppages for rain, only that the commentators had talked about

319
00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:21.000
<v Speaker 1>the subject. Rugier received criticism for potentially misdirecting the jury,

320
00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:24.200
<v Speaker 1>so I think his letter expressing doubt about the verdict

321
00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:26.799
<v Speaker 1>were his attempt to make things right. I know that

322
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:29.920
<v Speaker 1>Rugier stated that if Jonathan was guilty of this crime,

323
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.319
<v Speaker 1>he was exceptionally cunning, because you'd think that a guy

324
00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:36.640
<v Speaker 1>with no criminal record who'd supposedly not handled the gun

325
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.720
<v Speaker 1>in two decades would leave a lot more dowbing evidence

326
00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:42.720
<v Speaker 1>behind if he took such a lengthy trip in order

327
00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:44.000
<v Speaker 1>to commit a double murder.

328
00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:47.279
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly, And I love when you said that the

329
00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:51.039
<v Speaker 3>problem is when you have someone who's innocent, it's so

330
00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:55.559
<v Speaker 3>much more difficult to prove your actual innocence, because if

331
00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:58.480
<v Speaker 3>you were going to plot a murder, you do something

332
00:17:58.519 --> 00:18:01.599
<v Speaker 3>like the Menindas brothers, right, went and bought movie tickets

333
00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:04.480
<v Speaker 3>to confirm that we were at the movies when this happened.

334
00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:07.119
<v Speaker 3>Or you would make sure that you you know, filled

335
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:09.799
<v Speaker 3>up with gas somewhere in your town, or ate at

336
00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:12.599
<v Speaker 3>a diner somewhere that you made a big hoop lob,

337
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:16.279
<v Speaker 3>like hey, guys, good to see you. We should hang

338
00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:19.920
<v Speaker 3>out soon, like remember you saw me? Right, You start

339
00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.039
<v Speaker 3>to lay out a path or a trail that when

340
00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:26.480
<v Speaker 3>you do need someone to say, hey, we saw him.

341
00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:31.640
<v Speaker 3>Did they remember you? When you have zero accountability to

342
00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:34.240
<v Speaker 3>a crime and you're asked, hey, what were you doing

343
00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:37.440
<v Speaker 3>that day? What I do every day, it's pretty boring.

344
00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:40.160
<v Speaker 3>I woke up, I cleaned the house, I went for

345
00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.519
<v Speaker 3>a walk, I said hey to some lift guys. That's

346
00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:46.400
<v Speaker 3>about it. Waited for Cheryl to come home, because that's

347
00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:49.119
<v Speaker 3>his normal day. I guarantee you if they had planned

348
00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:52.599
<v Speaker 3>out a four hundred mile round trip murder to make

349
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:54.960
<v Speaker 3>sure that they got this money, there would have been

350
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:57.440
<v Speaker 3>clear things put in place to make sure he got

351
00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:59.559
<v Speaker 3>home to his child and was not sent to prison

352
00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:01.519
<v Speaker 3>away from this new baby he was about to have.

353
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:03.880
<v Speaker 3>He would have laid groundwork to make sure there was

354
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:07.839
<v Speaker 3>evidence available to prove his whereabouts because he had actually

355
00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:09.160
<v Speaker 3>plotted an alibi.

356
00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:09.759
<v Speaker 2>Here.

357
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:11.880
<v Speaker 3>Poor Jonathan was innocent, so he had nothing to prove,

358
00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:13.160
<v Speaker 3>and he couldn't prove it.

359
00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:17.119
<v Speaker 2>I've actually seen other cases where people have traveled lengthy

360
00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:20.160
<v Speaker 2>distances from their home in order to commit crimes, and

361
00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:22.240
<v Speaker 2>then they'll go to like a drive through and then

362
00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:24.680
<v Speaker 2>get a like a McDonald's or something and get a

363
00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:27.400
<v Speaker 2>timestamp receipt just so they could show to the police

364
00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:29.759
<v Speaker 2>later on say, hey, look at me, I was in

365
00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:31.559
<v Speaker 2>such and such a town at this time, so I

366
00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:34.319
<v Speaker 2>couldn't have driven like one hundred miles to commit this murder.

367
00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:37.119
<v Speaker 2>But it only makes the investigators more suspicious, like why

368
00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:39.640
<v Speaker 2>are you saving a receipt from like buying a food

369
00:19:39.640 --> 00:19:42.119
<v Speaker 2>at a restaurant like weeks earlier, why do you still

370
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:44.559
<v Speaker 2>have it? So it looks obvious that they're trying to

371
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:48.119
<v Speaker 2>fabricate an alibi for himself. But here Jonathan didn't attempt

372
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:49.880
<v Speaker 2>any of that. He just said, oh, I spent the

373
00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:52.440
<v Speaker 2>day like wandering around London walking and I talked to

374
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:55.240
<v Speaker 2>these lift engineers. But it didn't really look like he

375
00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:58.039
<v Speaker 2>was like trying to plan this four hundred mile round

376
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:02.319
<v Speaker 2>trip and establish an alibi for himself. So, following Jonathan's

377
00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:04.680
<v Speaker 2>release from prison, it seemed to take a while for

378
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:07.599
<v Speaker 2>the South Wales Police to finally acknowledge that there might

379
00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:10.920
<v Speaker 2>be another killer out there somewhere, but they ultimately did

380
00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:14.680
<v Speaker 2>launch a new investigation, and of course another suspect has

381
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.920
<v Speaker 2>recently been taken into custody. Given that a neighbor reported

382
00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:20.880
<v Speaker 2>hearing two gunshots from the two's property at around one

383
00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:24.240
<v Speaker 2>thirty PM, and Harry and Meghan were each shot once,

384
00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:27.240
<v Speaker 2>is reasonable to assume that this is when the murders

385
00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:29.720
<v Speaker 2>took place, and since no one showed up at the

386
00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:32.200
<v Speaker 2>farm to check on the couple until several hours later,

387
00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:34.920
<v Speaker 2>the killer would have had ample time to cover up

388
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:38.920
<v Speaker 2>the crime and dispose of evidence. Once you discount the idea,

389
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.359
<v Speaker 2>that the Twoses were murdered so that their daughter could

390
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:44.519
<v Speaker 2>inherit the estate. There doesn't seem to be any apparent

391
00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:47.599
<v Speaker 2>motive for this crime, as Harry and Megan didn't have in,

392
00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:50.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, enemies, and nothing appeared to have been stolen

393
00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:53.559
<v Speaker 2>from the residents. I started to wonder if the whole

394
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:55.720
<v Speaker 2>thing might have just been some sort of thrill kill

395
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:58.400
<v Speaker 2>from someone who just wanted to murder a random couple

396
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:01.440
<v Speaker 2>and selected the Twoses because they happened to live on

397
00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:05.839
<v Speaker 2>an isolated farm. However, since the afore mentioned teacup and

398
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:08.640
<v Speaker 2>saucer were found on the dining room table and the

399
00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:10.920
<v Speaker 2>couple appeared to be in the midst of preparing lunch,

400
00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:14.119
<v Speaker 2>it does seem like the killer was invited into their home.

401
00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Everyone who knew the Twoses said that they never brought

402
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:20.559
<v Speaker 2>out that particular China teacup unless they had a guest.

403
00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:24.279
<v Speaker 2>The circumstances of how Harry and Meghan were shot and

404
00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:26.519
<v Speaker 2>how their bodies wound up in the cowshd are not

405
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.480
<v Speaker 2>entirely clear. It seems like Harry was shot just inside

406
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:34.279
<v Speaker 2>the cowshed's front door, and Megan was shot outside before

407
00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:36.880
<v Speaker 2>her body was dragged in there. And they were both concealed.

408
00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:39.839
<v Speaker 2>It's possible that Megan was inside the cowshd when her

409
00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:42.519
<v Speaker 2>husband was shot and attempted to make a run for it,

410
00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:45.359
<v Speaker 2>or she heard the shot from inside the farmhouse and

411
00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:49.359
<v Speaker 2>came running outside before she was ambushed. For all we know,

412
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:51.640
<v Speaker 2>the killer may have led Harry and Megan to the

413
00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:55.359
<v Speaker 2>cowshed at gunpoint, or Harry escorted the perpetrator in there

414
00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:58.160
<v Speaker 2>and was taken by complete surprise when he was shot.

415
00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.279
<v Speaker 2>We have on Ai pom prints on the farmyard gates

416
00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:05.319
<v Speaker 2>and the farmhouses front door which did not match the

417
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:09.359
<v Speaker 2>twoses Cheryl or Jonathan, and they may belong to the killer.

418
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:11.920
<v Speaker 2>But since the police did not do a good job

419
00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:14.720
<v Speaker 2>preserving the crime scene, it sounds like there isn't much

420
00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:16.680
<v Speaker 2>in the way a physical evidence at all.

421
00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:20.039
<v Speaker 3>You know, when you think about the tea set, we

422
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:23.119
<v Speaker 3>are convinced that they had have known these people. What

423
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:25.720
<v Speaker 3>if I mean, I don't know. I think about my

424
00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:29.720
<v Speaker 3>southern mother, right, she's not in Wales. However, if there

425
00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:31.839
<v Speaker 3>was someone who had come to the door and was

426
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.119
<v Speaker 3>talking to my parents and was like, you know, yeah,

427
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.799
<v Speaker 3>I just I'm so sorry I got lost. I thought,

428
00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:38.519
<v Speaker 3>you know, I needed some help. I need to use

429
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:41.160
<v Speaker 3>your phone, and they have a sob story or they're

430
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:44.119
<v Speaker 3>talking to you. I could easily see my mom saying, well,

431
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.440
<v Speaker 3>while you wait for you know them to call you back,

432
00:22:47.559 --> 00:22:50.240
<v Speaker 3>or while you wait for you know someone to come

433
00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:52.559
<v Speaker 3>pick you up, let me make you a cup of coffee,

434
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:54.960
<v Speaker 3>let me make you a cup of tea, and just

435
00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:58.480
<v Speaker 3>being a hostess, she'd grab whatever was right there, right

436
00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:01.039
<v Speaker 3>which could have been that cute little tea and made

437
00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:03.319
<v Speaker 3>a cup of tea. Now more likely that they knew

438
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:05.880
<v Speaker 3>the person. But could they have been helping someone who

439
00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:09.279
<v Speaker 3>had mental health issues and they knew that person and

440
00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:12.200
<v Speaker 3>they were someone that they really cared for. I feel

441
00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:14.640
<v Speaker 3>like they would have told Cheryl about you know, we

442
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:16.799
<v Speaker 3>have this troubled friend. They come and check on us,

443
00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:19.440
<v Speaker 3>you know, we're trying to help him out. But I

444
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:21.839
<v Speaker 3>could see someone with a mental illness who they knew

445
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:24.440
<v Speaker 3>and cared for and didn't realize they were that sick.

446
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:27.640
<v Speaker 3>Turning on them doesn't have to be a motive for money,

447
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:30.640
<v Speaker 3>doesn't have to be something that seems logical. Could have

448
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:34.160
<v Speaker 3>been a thorough kill. Like Jules just said, but or

449
00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:36.119
<v Speaker 3>Robin just said, but to.

450
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:36.839
<v Speaker 2>Me, I don't know.

451
00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:39.319
<v Speaker 3>Saying that it had to be someone they know, I

452
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:42.960
<v Speaker 3>think is closing the circle too quickly. I think it's

453
00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:44.839
<v Speaker 3>probable they knew them, but I don't think it has

454
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:45.759
<v Speaker 3>to be one hundred percent.

455
00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:48.880
<v Speaker 2>I certainly don't discount the idea that the killer was

456
00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:51.720
<v Speaker 2>a stranger, because Alan Harry sounds like one of those

457
00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:54.119
<v Speaker 2>places that you hear about in true crime shows where

458
00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:56.519
<v Speaker 2>they would use the cliche no one ever had to

459
00:23:56.559 --> 00:23:59.200
<v Speaker 2>lock their doors because obviously it was not a place

460
00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:01.640
<v Speaker 2>that had a lot of mind crime. So I'm sure

461
00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Harry and Meghan were probably never thinking that someone was

462
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:06.759
<v Speaker 2>going to stop by the residents and decide to kill them.

463
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:09.039
<v Speaker 2>So if a stranger did show up, I think that

464
00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:11.480
<v Speaker 2>they were friendly enough that they wouldn't have felt threatened

465
00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:14.519
<v Speaker 2>and just invited this person inside and still been taken

466
00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:17.119
<v Speaker 2>by complete surprise when they decided to kill them.

467
00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:21.920
<v Speaker 1>So the contents of those letters that law enforcement received

468
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.240
<v Speaker 1>is that where they got the suggestion for who might

469
00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:28.480
<v Speaker 1>have committed this crime, and that led them to the

470
00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:29.599
<v Speaker 1>eighty six year old man.

471
00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:32.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm not entirely sure, because I think they got those

472
00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:35.119
<v Speaker 2>letters many years ago, so I'm thinking, yeah, it was

473
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:38.440
<v Speaker 2>an I think it was around like two thousand and

474
00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:42.519
<v Speaker 2>three or so, like over twenty years. So obviously, if

475
00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:45.079
<v Speaker 2>they had information which led them to a suspect, I

476
00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:47.400
<v Speaker 2>don't think they would have taken this long to arrest them.

477
00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:49.839
<v Speaker 2>So we still don't know the contents of those letters,

478
00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:52.000
<v Speaker 2>but I have a feeling that it was probably different

479
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:54.839
<v Speaker 2>evidence which led to them arresting this person very recently.

480
00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:57.079
<v Speaker 1>Do you think that there was a possibility that the

481
00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.519
<v Speaker 1>investigators that were on the case in two thousand and

482
00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:02.880
<v Speaker 1>three really convinced that it was Jonathan, so they didn't

483
00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:06.279
<v Speaker 1>really look into the contents of the letters so deeply.

484
00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:10.720
<v Speaker 1>But then maybe when they reapproached it, it was new investigators,

485
00:25:10.839 --> 00:25:14.519
<v Speaker 1>fresh set of eyes, maybe not the bias towards Jonathan

486
00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:18.039
<v Speaker 1>that the previous investigators had, and so when they looked

487
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:19.759
<v Speaker 1>at it they saw something completely different.

488
00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:22.960
<v Speaker 2>That is possible because two thousand and three is when

489
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:25.680
<v Speaker 2>they started coming around and thinking, Okay, let's look at

490
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.920
<v Speaker 2>other alternate suspects and reopen the investigation. But I'm not

491
00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:32.119
<v Speaker 2>sure that they were fully convinced yet that Jonathan was innocent.

492
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:34.799
<v Speaker 2>But that is how a lot of these cold cases

493
00:25:34.839 --> 00:25:38.559
<v Speaker 2>got solved, involving wrongful convictions where years passed, they get

494
00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:41.079
<v Speaker 2>new investigators on the case, they're not worrying about the

495
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:44.440
<v Speaker 2>political aspect. And then they get someone on the case

496
00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:47.720
<v Speaker 2>he decides, I don't care if this makes our department

497
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:49.599
<v Speaker 2>look bad. I just want to get to the truth.

498
00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:52.640
<v Speaker 2>And that's when they finally wind up apprehending the real killer.

499
00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:55.359
<v Speaker 2>But I know that in twenty twenty three they said

500
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:58.079
<v Speaker 2>that they were doing new forensic testing on some items

501
00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:00.839
<v Speaker 2>of evidence in the case, So I still inclined to

502
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:02.759
<v Speaker 2>believe that maybe that is what led them to this

503
00:26:02.839 --> 00:26:04.039
<v Speaker 2>eighty six year old man.

504
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:07.920
<v Speaker 1>So who did we have in the wave of alternate suspects?

505
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.559
<v Speaker 1>While obviously an eighty six year old male suspect was

506
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:15.400
<v Speaker 1>recently taken into custody on suspicion of murder, but since

507
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.960
<v Speaker 1>investigators have not yet released any details about who this

508
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:23.319
<v Speaker 1>person is, we can still speculate about their identity. In

509
00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:26.559
<v Speaker 1>the weeks prior to the murders, two eye witnesses claimed

510
00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:28.759
<v Speaker 1>they drove past a man in a trench coat and

511
00:26:28.839 --> 00:26:31.720
<v Speaker 1>dark sunglasses walking down the road in the direction of

512
00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:35.039
<v Speaker 1>the Jos's farm. He was carrying a hold all bag

513
00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:37.920
<v Speaker 1>and when he noticed the car passing by, the man

514
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.000
<v Speaker 1>apparently made an attempt to conceal his face, and the

515
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.279
<v Speaker 1>witnesses were pretty certain that he was not Jonathan Jones,

516
00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.799
<v Speaker 1>as he was described as being considerably shorter than Jonathan

517
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:52.480
<v Speaker 1>at around five foot nine. We've had police provide descriptions

518
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:55.359
<v Speaker 1>of vehicles which were supposedly seen in the area on

519
00:26:55.400 --> 00:26:58.119
<v Speaker 1>the day of the crime and have never been located,

520
00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:01.319
<v Speaker 1>and there have also been vagar from neighbors that they

521
00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:05.079
<v Speaker 1>heard loud arguing from the Tuesdays property during this time period.

522
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:08.480
<v Speaker 1>But I think the most intriguing lead was provided by

523
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:11.759
<v Speaker 1>a solicitor who claimed that Harry visited his office a

524
00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:14.799
<v Speaker 1>week before the murder took place and was accompanied by

525
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:17.599
<v Speaker 1>a middle aged man whom he described as a plummy

526
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:21.119
<v Speaker 1>voice stranger. In case you're not familiar with that term,

527
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:24.319
<v Speaker 1>the definition of plummy is used to describe a low

528
00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:27.559
<v Speaker 1>voice or way of speaking using long vowels, of a

529
00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:30.640
<v Speaker 1>type thought to be typical of the English upper social class.

530
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:34.559
<v Speaker 1>The solicitor said that Harry inquired about his mother in

531
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.119
<v Speaker 1>law's will, as Megan's mother had left them the farm

532
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:41.680
<v Speaker 1>when she passed away years earlier. This meeting was described

533
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:45.039
<v Speaker 1>as being tense, and while details are pretty vague. The

534
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:48.720
<v Speaker 1>plummy voice stranger has never come forward or been identified.

535
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:54.079
<v Speaker 3>Very interesting. So you see Harry show up with this

536
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:57.079
<v Speaker 3>stranger and the solicitors like, I have no idea whose

537
00:27:57.079 --> 00:28:00.559
<v Speaker 3>person was, but they were inquiring about Harry's mother or

538
00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:03.480
<v Speaker 3>mother in law's will, saying that, you know, this farm

539
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:05.680
<v Speaker 3>had been left to them. He's inquiring about kind of

540
00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:09.680
<v Speaker 3>their ownership and what the will specified in there with

541
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:14.000
<v Speaker 3>another man present. Again, it seems like if he was

542
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:17.799
<v Speaker 3>going to try to maybe solidify something for his own will,

543
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:21.400
<v Speaker 3>if he was trying to gather information for a business deal.

544
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:24.480
<v Speaker 3>It seems like something he would have spoken to his

545
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:28.200
<v Speaker 3>adult daughter about. You know, it's not like she's an

546
00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:29.960
<v Speaker 3>eighteen year old and he doesn't want to bother her

547
00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:33.039
<v Speaker 3>with financial issues or any kind of business decisions. I

548
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:36.920
<v Speaker 3>feel like when my parents are trying to investigate wills

549
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:39.680
<v Speaker 3>in the family, when they're trying to make a property sale,

550
00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:43.720
<v Speaker 3>anything like that, I'm aware of it. So it's odd.

551
00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:47.079
<v Speaker 3>Who was this person with him? And it seemed quote tense.

552
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:50.319
<v Speaker 3>Was this someone he was trying to make a business

553
00:28:50.359 --> 00:28:55.000
<v Speaker 3>deal with? Was it somebody who thought that Harry owed

554
00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:58.119
<v Speaker 3>him something? Again, is this something that would have been

555
00:28:58.200 --> 00:29:01.200
<v Speaker 3>kept from Cheryl maybe if they thought they were kind

556
00:29:01.240 --> 00:29:05.799
<v Speaker 3>of at risk or being exploited for something. But very interesting,

557
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.039
<v Speaker 3>and who's to say that that man that some of

558
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:11.240
<v Speaker 3>the witnesses saw walking that clearly was not Jonathan wasn't

559
00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:12.559
<v Speaker 3>that eighty six year old man.

560
00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:15.759
<v Speaker 2>That is possible, And it just seems strange to me

561
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:19.039
<v Speaker 2>that this lead with the plummy voice stranger wasn't treated

562
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:22.240
<v Speaker 2>with more seriousness at the time after the murders took place.

563
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:25.400
<v Speaker 2>And I think that was probably because they were so

564
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:28.680
<v Speaker 2>focused on Jonathan. And I don't know when this lead

565
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:31.000
<v Speaker 2>with the plummy voice stranger came about, but if it

566
00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:34.440
<v Speaker 2>was years after Jonathan's conviction was overturned, that might be

567
00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:37.240
<v Speaker 2>why it's so vague, Like maybe this solicitor came forward

568
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:39.920
<v Speaker 2>and says, oh, yeah, I remember several years later, Harry

569
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:43.440
<v Speaker 2>was in my office with this stranger. And that's why

570
00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:46.240
<v Speaker 2>we don't have more specific details about what this meeting

571
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:49.000
<v Speaker 2>was about. But it seems to me that if the

572
00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:51.880
<v Speaker 2>investigators had learned about this right from the outset, then

573
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:55.400
<v Speaker 2>this plummy voice stranger should have become the lead suspect.

574
00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:58.599
<v Speaker 1>I feel like they released the details about him being

575
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:02.319
<v Speaker 1>a plumby voice stranger, But why don't we have more

576
00:30:02.359 --> 00:30:06.039
<v Speaker 1>details about what approximate age he was, how tall he was?

577
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:11.799
<v Speaker 1>In ways it would obviously be excluding of Jonathan, so

578
00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:15.599
<v Speaker 1>it could be inclusive of other people though, if we

579
00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:19.160
<v Speaker 1>knew more information, and if we knew more about why

580
00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:24.240
<v Speaker 1>it was tense, and what direction was that energy coming from.

581
00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:28.880
<v Speaker 1>Was it the stranger or was it from Harry? And

582
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:31.880
<v Speaker 1>because they go back to what Ashley said, maybe they

583
00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:35.519
<v Speaker 1>wanted to know the value of the farm because Harry

584
00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:38.960
<v Speaker 1>had a potential debt. But it makes me wonder and

585
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:40.559
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you have the answer to this, Robin,

586
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:45.000
<v Speaker 1>but did anybody else have a financial motive to end

587
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:47.960
<v Speaker 1>the lives of Harry and Meghan any other family members?

588
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.680
<v Speaker 2>Well that's what I've always wondered about, because they mentioned

589
00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:54.000
<v Speaker 2>something about his mother in law's will, and I know

590
00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:56.880
<v Speaker 2>that Megan had at least one brother, and I don't

591
00:30:56.920 --> 00:30:59.960
<v Speaker 2>know if their deaths would cause that person or anyone

592
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:02.799
<v Speaker 2>else from Megan's side of the family to inherit anything.

593
00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:05.440
<v Speaker 2>So that's why I wish we had more specific details

594
00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:09.400
<v Speaker 2>about why Harry was suddenly interested in this will, considering

595
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:11.480
<v Speaker 2>that they had lived on the property for thirty years,

596
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:13.279
<v Speaker 2>So why did they have to go in at this

597
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:16.799
<v Speaker 2>particular time and see a solicitor? And why would Harry

598
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:19.519
<v Speaker 2>bring along this guy that no one seems to know

599
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:24.279
<v Speaker 2>his identity? So interestingly enough, prior to this meeting at

600
00:31:24.279 --> 00:31:27.079
<v Speaker 2>the solicitor's office, Harry made a phone call to the

601
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:30.480
<v Speaker 2>National Farmers Union where he claimed that someone was trying

602
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:34.720
<v Speaker 2>to a victim, but never offered any additional information. So

603
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:36.920
<v Speaker 2>if Harry feared that he was going to be evicted,

604
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:39.640
<v Speaker 2>that might explain why he felt compelled to check his

605
00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:42.279
<v Speaker 2>mother in law's will to make sure the property was his.

606
00:31:43.319 --> 00:31:46.440
<v Speaker 2>The situation seems pretty odd since the Tuses had lived

607
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:48.799
<v Speaker 2>at the farm for over three decades at that point.

608
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:51.920
<v Speaker 2>So who was trying to evictim? Was it the same

609
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:55.359
<v Speaker 2>man who accompanied Harry to the solicitor's office? If not,

610
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.440
<v Speaker 2>then who was this guy? I suppose that if someone

611
00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:00.880
<v Speaker 2>wanted the twos land and this could have given them

612
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:04.279
<v Speaker 2>a potential motive to commit murder, But since Cheryl wound

613
00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:07.359
<v Speaker 2>up inheriting their estate, I'm not sure if anyone else

614
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:11.440
<v Speaker 2>gained anything from this crime. I suppose this alleged eviction

615
00:32:11.559 --> 00:32:14.119
<v Speaker 2>could have been some elaborate con job from the killer,

616
00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:17.519
<v Speaker 2>But what exactly was their endgame? And if the plummy

617
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:20.240
<v Speaker 2>voice stranger was planning to kill the twos is, why

618
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:23.640
<v Speaker 2>would he allow himself to be seen by solicitor. The

619
00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:26.039
<v Speaker 2>fact that this man has never come forward seems to

620
00:32:26.119 --> 00:32:29.079
<v Speaker 2>suggest that he was involved in this crime. But I

621
00:32:29.240 --> 00:32:31.200
<v Speaker 2>just have this feeling that there's a big piece of

622
00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:34.160
<v Speaker 2>the puzzle missing somewhere which might shed some light on

623
00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:37.920
<v Speaker 2>what happened. I know police received an anonymous letter about

624
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:40.480
<v Speaker 2>the case sometime in the early two thousands, and while

625
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:43.759
<v Speaker 2>they've never publicly revealed its contents, I wonder if it

626
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:46.559
<v Speaker 2>provides any additional insight on this whole situation.

627
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:51.559
<v Speaker 3>So what about this? What if they went to check

628
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:53.880
<v Speaker 3>the mother in law's will because he was trying to

629
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:58.960
<v Speaker 3>prove to someone that it's his land. Like, let's say

630
00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:02.039
<v Speaker 3>this person is a quote family member, but someone that

631
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:04.759
<v Speaker 3>isn't really active in their life and says that was

632
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:07.160
<v Speaker 3>my land. I was supposed to inherit that when she

633
00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:09.920
<v Speaker 3>passed away, I'm the one who should have gotten that.

634
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.880
<v Speaker 3>You show me, you prove to me that it's not mine,

635
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:16.079
<v Speaker 3>And he's like, that's fine. Can I please see my

636
00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:18.799
<v Speaker 3>mother in law's will just want to check and see

637
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:19.960
<v Speaker 3>who she left our land to.

638
00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:21.720
<v Speaker 2>Oh me, okay?

639
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:24.200
<v Speaker 3>And could it be just out of anger and resentment

640
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:26.839
<v Speaker 3>that this person's like, you stole what was mine, and

641
00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:29.359
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to steal what matters to you, which is

642
00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:32.400
<v Speaker 3>your life. I mean, it's possible that someone thought they

643
00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:35.880
<v Speaker 3>were entitled to the land. But again again, if some

644
00:33:36.119 --> 00:33:38.720
<v Speaker 3>aunt crawt out of the woodwork and started coming after

645
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:42.599
<v Speaker 3>my mom saying, hey, you know, your home is my home.

646
00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:46.400
<v Speaker 3>You inherited that from your mom or whatever, but it's mine,

647
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:48.000
<v Speaker 3>I feel like my mom would go, you won't believe

648
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.079
<v Speaker 3>the crap that's happening. I gotta go pull up the will,

649
00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:52.279
<v Speaker 3>I gotta go see what this is. I just feel

650
00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:54.559
<v Speaker 3>like that would have been a such a big deal

651
00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:57.319
<v Speaker 3>and such a frustration that it would have been voiced

652
00:33:57.519 --> 00:33:59.279
<v Speaker 3>at some point. But it could have been someone who

653
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:01.400
<v Speaker 3>says it's mine and when you don't give it to me,

654
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:04.359
<v Speaker 3>or I'm proven wrong, I'm so angry that I snap.

655
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:08.000
<v Speaker 1>People have different relationships with their parents, but we know

656
00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:10.920
<v Speaker 1>that Cheryl talks to her parents like every single day,

657
00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:13.760
<v Speaker 1>So that would lead me to believe that if something

658
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:16.599
<v Speaker 1>like this was going on, and it was very dramatic

659
00:34:16.599 --> 00:34:19.000
<v Speaker 1>and very upsetting. The one of her parents would have

660
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:19.800
<v Speaker 1>told her about it.

661
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:22.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, even like mom going, I mean, just because I

662
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:24.480
<v Speaker 3>know she talks to them every day. So I talk

663
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:26.519
<v Speaker 3>to my parents every day. And trust me, if one

664
00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:28.360
<v Speaker 3>parent doesn't tell me, the other one does. And it's

665
00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:31.280
<v Speaker 3>always like, don't tell dad, Okay, doesn't want to upset you.

666
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:33.679
<v Speaker 3>But and then Dad has his own things that he's like,

667
00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:35.360
<v Speaker 3>don't tell your mom I told you this, because she'll

668
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:38.440
<v Speaker 3>be worried and everything else. But you know, because I do.

669
00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:40.880
<v Speaker 3>I call every day and I'm active in their lives

670
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:43.639
<v Speaker 3>even though I don't live close to them. So it's possible.

671
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:46.159
<v Speaker 3>And again, there are some parents who, even though they

672
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:48.079
<v Speaker 3>do talk and love on their babies every day, they

673
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:52.119
<v Speaker 3>spare them from any emotional or financial, you know, struggles.

674
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:54.519
<v Speaker 3>So it's possible that they kept it to themselves. But

675
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:57.360
<v Speaker 3>I just thought, you don't know, you never know. We

676
00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.440
<v Speaker 3>don't know the right answer here, so it's all possible.

677
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:05.719
<v Speaker 1>Now. On Robin's original trail link hold, he discussed the

678
00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:09.400
<v Speaker 1>possibility of a convicted serial killer named John Cooper being

679
00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:12.480
<v Speaker 1>the real perpetrator. It's obvious that Cooper is not the

680
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:16.000
<v Speaker 1>man who was recently arrested on suspicion of murder, since

681
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:18.800
<v Speaker 1>the person was released on bail and Cooper is currently

682
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:22.239
<v Speaker 1>serving a life sentence in prison. But since Cooper has

683
00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:24.920
<v Speaker 1>still not officially been ruled out as a suspect, we

684
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:28.360
<v Speaker 1>can still talk about his background. So in nineteen eighty five,

685
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:31.320
<v Speaker 1>Cooper was working as a farm laborer in the county

686
00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:35.159
<v Speaker 1>of Pembrokeshire, and on December twenty second, he decided to

687
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.239
<v Speaker 1>break into a mansion located near the village of Schoveston

688
00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:41.719
<v Speaker 1>to perform a burglary. The mansion was owned by fifty

689
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:44.119
<v Speaker 1>eight year old Richard Thomas and his fifty four year

690
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:47.920
<v Speaker 1>old sister, Helen Thomas, whom Cooper had previously worked for,

691
00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:50.480
<v Speaker 1>and it sounds like he was expecting the residents to

692
00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:54.519
<v Speaker 1>be unoccupied. However, Helen happened to be there, and Cooper

693
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:56.719
<v Speaker 1>killed her with a shotgun blast to the face when

694
00:35:56.719 --> 00:36:00.360
<v Speaker 1>she recognized his voice. Before Cooper had a chance to leave,

695
00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:03.360
<v Speaker 1>Richard returned home and was killed with a shotgun blast

696
00:36:03.400 --> 00:36:06.679
<v Speaker 1>to the face as well. Cooper subsequently set fire to

697
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:09.920
<v Speaker 1>the house in an attempt to destroy evidence before fleeing

698
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:13.960
<v Speaker 1>the scene. On June twenty ninth, nineteen eighty nine, Cooper

699
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:17.639
<v Speaker 1>committed another double murder in Pembrokeshire, and this time the

700
00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:20.639
<v Speaker 1>two victims were fifty one year old Peter Dixon and

701
00:36:20.679 --> 00:36:23.800
<v Speaker 1>his fifty two year old wife, Gwenda Dixon, a couple

702
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:26.760
<v Speaker 1>who'd traveled to the area on a camping trip. The

703
00:36:26.840 --> 00:36:30.480
<v Speaker 1>Dixons were taking a walk down Pembrokeshire Coast path when

704
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:33.280
<v Speaker 1>they crossed paths with Cooper, who was carrying a sawd

705
00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:36.199
<v Speaker 1>off shotgun, and he proceeded to rob and tie up

706
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:40.679
<v Speaker 1>the couple before sexually assaulting Gwenda. Cooper then forced the

707
00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:43.639
<v Speaker 1>Dixons to hand over their bank card and provide their

708
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:48.159
<v Speaker 1>personal identification number before he fatally shot them. In a

709
00:36:48.199 --> 00:36:51.400
<v Speaker 1>bizarre turn of events, Cooper had recently been a contestant

710
00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:54.920
<v Speaker 1>on the popular British game show Bullseye, and the episode

711
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:58.599
<v Speaker 1>aired only one month before the crime took place. In fact,

712
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:00.920
<v Speaker 1>footage from the show would have actually be used to

713
00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:04.360
<v Speaker 1>match Cooper to a composite sketch of the suspect, which

714
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:08.920
<v Speaker 1>have been created from eyewitness descriptions. Two decades later, Cooper

715
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:11.639
<v Speaker 1>was finally linked to both of these double homicides via

716
00:37:11.719 --> 00:37:16.119
<v Speaker 1>DNA evidence, and after being convicted in May twenty eleven,

717
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:17.840
<v Speaker 1>he was sentenced to life imprisonment.

718
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:21.199
<v Speaker 3>Well, I sure wish that they had done a better

719
00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:25.800
<v Speaker 3>investigation originally, because this guy uses a sawed off shotgun.

720
00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:32.280
<v Speaker 3>We know that he has targeted couples before, and his

721
00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:35.599
<v Speaker 3>DNA clearly is on record to be tested against. But again,

722
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:41.320
<v Speaker 3>because he did not know, he cannot be really explored

723
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:44.039
<v Speaker 3>fully because they didn't do a proper investigation.

724
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:47.920
<v Speaker 2>From the gid go attempts happen may to link Cooper

725
00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:50.440
<v Speaker 2>to a number of cold cases, including the murders of

726
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:53.440
<v Speaker 2>Harry and Meghan two's. Well, there has never been any

727
00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:55.920
<v Speaker 2>real evidence linking him to the twos murders. I can

728
00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:59.199
<v Speaker 2>understand why he might seem like a compelling suspect, as

729
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:03.519
<v Speaker 2>double shotgun in the United Kingdom are extremely rare. Like

730
00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:06.280
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned earlier, it seemed like whoever killed Harry and

731
00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:09.280
<v Speaker 2>Meghan was very skilled at using a shotgun, and we

732
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:12.320
<v Speaker 2>know that Cooper previously murdered at least two couples in

733
00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:15.360
<v Speaker 2>that fashion. As you might recall, the barrels of a

734
00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:19.400
<v Speaker 2>twelve bore shotgun, two shotgun cartridges, and a holdall bag

735
00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:22.400
<v Speaker 2>were discovered in a quarry and a mine shaft located

736
00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:26.119
<v Speaker 2>in close proximity to the Toos farm. While it's never

737
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:29.159
<v Speaker 2>been conclusively proven that these items were used in the murders,

738
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:32.280
<v Speaker 2>is worth noting that the shotgun barrels were painted white,

739
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:34.639
<v Speaker 2>which is something that Cooper liked to do with his

740
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:38.440
<v Speaker 2>own shotgun. But while there are some similarities between the

741
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:41.480
<v Speaker 2>Twos murders and Cooper's other crimes, there are also a

742
00:38:41.559 --> 00:38:46.000
<v Speaker 2>number of differences. Cooper's victims received a shotgun blasted the face,

743
00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:48.840
<v Speaker 2>whereas the Twoses were shot in the back of the head.

744
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:52.840
<v Speaker 2>The Thomases and the Dixons were murdered in Pembrokeshire, which

745
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:55.599
<v Speaker 2>is where Cooper pretty much lived his entire life, but

746
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:58.679
<v Speaker 2>it's around one hundred miles away from Loanhari, and there's

747
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:01.679
<v Speaker 2>nothing to indicate that Cooper had any familiarity with the

748
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:03.960
<v Speaker 2>area at all, other than the fact that he once

749
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.840
<v Speaker 2>attended an appointment at a hospital in the nearby town

750
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:09.480
<v Speaker 2>of Bridge and one year before the Twos murders.

751
00:39:11.159 --> 00:39:13.079
<v Speaker 3>Well, here's the thing I have to ask, if you

752
00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:15.679
<v Speaker 3>had a serial killer on your hands, not just someone

753
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:19.239
<v Speaker 3>who commits a murder, but a serial killer who truly

754
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:22.519
<v Speaker 3>has this kind of desire and need to continue to

755
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:25.280
<v Speaker 3>escalate their crimes and to continue to kill, do you

756
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:28.679
<v Speaker 3>think that they would so flippantly discard their weapon, or

757
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:31.480
<v Speaker 3>because they know this is something they enjoy doing or

758
00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:34.239
<v Speaker 3>that they have as a routine, do you think that

759
00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:38.000
<v Speaker 3>they would just so kilessly discard it. I'm thinking that

760
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:39.360
<v Speaker 3>they would hold on to it because they're going to

761
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:40.760
<v Speaker 3>use it shortly after to kill again.

762
00:39:41.480 --> 00:39:43.239
<v Speaker 2>That's what I'm thinking as well that I mean, we

763
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:47.000
<v Speaker 2>can't conclusively prove yet if those shotgun barrels were used

764
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:49.599
<v Speaker 2>in the two's murders, but if they were, then I

765
00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:52.480
<v Speaker 2>could definitely see a first time killer disposing of them

766
00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:54.880
<v Speaker 2>like that because this is the first time they've committed

767
00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:57.960
<v Speaker 2>a crime like this and they want to distance themselves

768
00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:00.159
<v Speaker 2>from the evidence. And we still don't know, oh, if

769
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:04.039
<v Speaker 2>Cooper killed any additional victims after nineteen ninety three, because

770
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:06.199
<v Speaker 2>like I said, they were still trying to link them

771
00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:09.159
<v Speaker 2>to additional cold cases. But if he was someone who

772
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:11.280
<v Speaker 2>liked to kill for the thrill of it, like you said,

773
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:13.480
<v Speaker 2>I could definitely see him wanting to use the same

774
00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:14.719
<v Speaker 2>murder weapon each time.

775
00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:19.480
<v Speaker 1>But even before the recent arrest of this other suspect.

776
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:22.159
<v Speaker 1>The main reason to lean away from Cooper being the

777
00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:25.400
<v Speaker 1>perpetrator in this case is motive. Throughout the course of

778
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:27.960
<v Speaker 1>his life, Cooper was known to have committed at least

779
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:31.480
<v Speaker 1>thirty burglaries, but nothing was stolen from the Juess farmhouse,

780
00:40:31.639 --> 00:40:35.000
<v Speaker 1>which seems very out of character for him. Remember, the

781
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:38.440
<v Speaker 1>main reason Cooper murdered the Thomases was because he decided

782
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:41.320
<v Speaker 1>to burglarize their mansion and was not expecting them to

783
00:40:41.320 --> 00:40:44.159
<v Speaker 1>be there, And it sounds like Cooper picked out the

784
00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:46.800
<v Speaker 1>Dixons at random when he came across the couple on

785
00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:50.519
<v Speaker 1>the coastal path and decided to rob them. Definitely does

786
00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:53.119
<v Speaker 1>not seem like robbery was a primary motive for the

787
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:57.079
<v Speaker 1>Jueses murders, so why would Cooper have targeted them. It

788
00:40:57.199 --> 00:40:59.599
<v Speaker 1>just seems like there was something a lot more personal

789
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:02.880
<v Speaker 1>about this crime. Now, Cooper wound up being linked to

790
00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:06.400
<v Speaker 1>the Thomas and Dixon murders by DNA testing, but for

791
00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:09.719
<v Speaker 1>many years it was unclear if any DNA evidence even

792
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:12.559
<v Speaker 1>existed in this case due to how much the crime

793
00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:16.440
<v Speaker 1>scene is contaminated at the twos farmhouse. But of course,

794
00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:19.199
<v Speaker 1>since the police announced their intention to perform a new

795
00:41:19.239 --> 00:41:22.559
<v Speaker 1>forensic review in twenty twenty three. That implies that they

796
00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:25.960
<v Speaker 1>did have some physical evidence to work with, and while

797
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:29.119
<v Speaker 1>they've never officially confirmed this, it's easy to assume that

798
00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:31.159
<v Speaker 1>this led them to the eighty six year old man

799
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:34.559
<v Speaker 1>who was recently arrested. Like we just mentioned, this man

800
00:41:34.599 --> 00:41:38.159
<v Speaker 1>is obviously not John Cooper, So while Cooper may have

801
00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:41.239
<v Speaker 1>seemed like a compelling suspect in the past, it now

802
00:41:41.239 --> 00:41:43.920
<v Speaker 1>seems apparent that he probably wasn't the perpetrator.

803
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:48.119
<v Speaker 3>Also, remember, he shot people in the face correct, like

804
00:41:48.760 --> 00:41:49.199
<v Speaker 3>from the.

805
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:51.880
<v Speaker 2>Front, yes, whereas the tuses were shot in the back

806
00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:52.559
<v Speaker 2>of the head.

807
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.559
<v Speaker 3>Which also makes me think, yes, it could be someone

808
00:41:55.559 --> 00:41:58.119
<v Speaker 3>who's like a contract killer, right, But it also could

809
00:41:58.119 --> 00:41:59.840
<v Speaker 3>have been someone who didn't want to see their face

810
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:03.079
<v Speaker 3>when they fired the shots, someone who wanted to commit

811
00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:04.960
<v Speaker 3>the act, but because they did know them, it was

812
00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:08.519
<v Speaker 3>something that even subconsciously, if I shoot them from behind,

813
00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:11.719
<v Speaker 3>I don't really see the same aftermath as if I

814
00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:13.960
<v Speaker 3>were to shoot them from the front.

815
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:18.480
<v Speaker 2>So back when I released my original Trail and Cold episode,

816
00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:20.639
<v Speaker 2>I was inclined to believe that the killer might have

817
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:24.639
<v Speaker 2>been the unidentified man seen alongside Harry in the solicitor's office,

818
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:27.840
<v Speaker 2>and with the information we have right now, it's still

819
00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:29.880
<v Speaker 2>possible that the man in the office and the man

820
00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:33.360
<v Speaker 2>who was recently arrested are one and the same. Remember,

821
00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:36.000
<v Speaker 2>just because this individual has been arrested on suspicion of

822
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:38.719
<v Speaker 2>murder does not necessarily mean that they will be charged

823
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:42.039
<v Speaker 2>with murder or go on trial. I have no idea

824
00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:44.440
<v Speaker 2>what kind of evidence the authorities have on this man,

825
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:46.800
<v Speaker 2>but I'm guessing they hoped that by taking him into

826
00:42:46.840 --> 00:42:49.719
<v Speaker 2>custody and bringing his story back into the spotlight again,

827
00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:53.519
<v Speaker 2>they might wind up receiving additional evidence or information that

828
00:42:53.559 --> 00:42:56.760
<v Speaker 2>strengthens their case against the suspect and makes them comfortable

829
00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:59.960
<v Speaker 2>enough to file charges. The fact that he is eighty

830
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:02.760
<v Speaker 2>six years old might mean that investigators are making a

831
00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:05.800
<v Speaker 2>last ditch effort to ensure that he faces justice while

832
00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:07.920
<v Speaker 2>he is still alive, and if they were willing to

833
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.760
<v Speaker 2>release him on bail, that likely means they don't consider

834
00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:14.320
<v Speaker 2>him to be a flight risk. Without knowing this person's identity,

835
00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:16.920
<v Speaker 2>we can only speculate about what's going on here.

836
00:43:17.320 --> 00:43:19.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I absolutely agree that the fact that this person's

837
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:22.519
<v Speaker 3>eighty six, it would have meant that they were about

838
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:25.880
<v Speaker 3>what fifty six when you had him going to the

839
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:29.280
<v Speaker 3>solicitor's office, or in his fifties, right, which would make

840
00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:32.280
<v Speaker 3>sense that he had some kind of relationship with Harry,

841
00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:36.239
<v Speaker 3>who was in his sixties, so definitely could have been

842
00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:39.199
<v Speaker 3>the same person that was at the solicitor's office. But

843
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:41.599
<v Speaker 3>you also have to think, like you said, this person's

844
00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:44.559
<v Speaker 3>eighty six, they're not going to be alive much longer.

845
00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:48.800
<v Speaker 3>So by arresting this individual, would it give people in

846
00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:52.920
<v Speaker 3>his circle confidence to say, the police have something. If

847
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:55.719
<v Speaker 3>I know anything and I went forward, they would believe me,

848
00:43:56.159 --> 00:43:58.920
<v Speaker 3>whereas before maybe I was scared to come forward. So

849
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:03.039
<v Speaker 3>I think this very strategic that they wanted, yes, media

850
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:05.440
<v Speaker 3>attention on the subject, but they wanted people who knew

851
00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:08.440
<v Speaker 3>this eighty six year old to say, hey, if you

852
00:44:08.440 --> 00:44:11.360
<v Speaker 3>can let us know information, we have our sights on

853
00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:13.920
<v Speaker 3>this person, You're not going to be at risk to

854
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:16.800
<v Speaker 3>disclose information that you might have been scared to disclose before,

855
00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:19.400
<v Speaker 3>because we would actually act on it. And so I

856
00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:22.920
<v Speaker 3>think they also were hoping that someone who had information

857
00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:25.760
<v Speaker 3>would feel more confident to come forward and disclose, knowing

858
00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:28.679
<v Speaker 3>that this person would likely be sent to prison if

859
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:30.760
<v Speaker 3>more information came out.

860
00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:33.360
<v Speaker 2>That's what I'm thinking as well. They probably suspect that

861
00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:35.559
<v Speaker 2>there are other people out there who knows something, and

862
00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:38.239
<v Speaker 2>who knows Maybe these people weren't even aware that this

863
00:44:38.360 --> 00:44:41.119
<v Speaker 2>man was still alive, but now they're hearing he's eighty six,

864
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:44.559
<v Speaker 2>We've almost got enough evidence to file charges, and he's

865
00:44:44.599 --> 00:44:47.400
<v Speaker 2>out on bail. So if you know something, now's the

866
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:49.840
<v Speaker 2>time to finally share it with law enforcement and he'll

867
00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:53.920
<v Speaker 2>finally face justice. So even though the Twoses were always

868
00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:57.079
<v Speaker 2>in constant communication with their daughter, I have a feeling

869
00:44:57.119 --> 00:44:59.159
<v Speaker 2>that something may have been going on in their lives

870
00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:02.000
<v Speaker 2>during this time perce period which they never told Cheryl about.

871
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:05.960
<v Speaker 2>If this individual is currently eighty six years old, then

872
00:45:05.960 --> 00:45:08.039
<v Speaker 2>that means that they would have been around fifty four

873
00:45:08.119 --> 00:45:10.519
<v Speaker 2>when the crime took place, which is not the age

874
00:45:10.519 --> 00:45:13.320
<v Speaker 2>when you'd expect someone to murder an elderly couple as

875
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:16.199
<v Speaker 2>some sort of random thrill kill. The fact that this

876
00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:18.719
<v Speaker 2>person was just over a decade younger than the twos

877
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:21.719
<v Speaker 2>is makes me think it was someone who knew them personally.

878
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:24.400
<v Speaker 2>I've always found this whole case to be a major

879
00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:27.039
<v Speaker 2>head scratcher, And if this eighty six year old man

880
00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:30.400
<v Speaker 2>is eventually charged with the murders and stands trial. Perhaps

881
00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:34.320
<v Speaker 2>we will finally learn the full truth about what happened. Unfortunately,

882
00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:37.400
<v Speaker 2>this crime pretty much destroyed the lives of Cheryl Twos

883
00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:41.840
<v Speaker 2>and Jonathan Jones. So they, Harry and Meghan all deserve justice.

884
00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:44.599
<v Speaker 2>So if you happen to have any information about the

885
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:48.639
<v Speaker 2>murders of Harry and Meghan Twos, please contact the appropriate authorities.

886
00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:51.880
<v Speaker 2>Jules Ashley, any final thoughts on this case.

887
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:56.159
<v Speaker 3>It's one of those. It's urgent, right, this eighty six

888
00:45:56.199 --> 00:45:57.920
<v Speaker 3>year old man that was in twenty twenty.

889
00:45:57.639 --> 00:46:00.480
<v Speaker 2>Three, correct, just a few weeks ago, Like they did

890
00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:03.239
<v Speaker 2>a new DNA testing in twenty twenty three, but the

891
00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:05.199
<v Speaker 2>rest of the man just came a few weeks before

892
00:46:05.199 --> 00:46:06.599
<v Speaker 2>we recorded this episode.

893
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:09.119
<v Speaker 3>Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. Yes, Okay, So people

894
00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:13.119
<v Speaker 3>share the information, you know, they're begging people to come forward,

895
00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:16.039
<v Speaker 3>and they are eager to say, listen, we don't have

896
00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:18.719
<v Speaker 3>much time left. If we are correct, and it is

897
00:46:18.760 --> 00:46:22.000
<v Speaker 3>this individual, it's likely they got some new tip, some

898
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:25.199
<v Speaker 3>kind of information, and they just need more to make

899
00:46:25.239 --> 00:46:29.760
<v Speaker 3>an official arrest and to actually charge him with a crime. Here,

900
00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:32.719
<v Speaker 3>you have to look at the totality of what this did.

901
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:35.719
<v Speaker 3>It stole the lives of Harry and Megan, but it

902
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:40.199
<v Speaker 3>also stole from Cheryl and Jonathan, both physically and emotionally

903
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:43.880
<v Speaker 3>and mentally. But it also stole from their child who

904
00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:48.239
<v Speaker 3>never got to meet their grandparents, also didn't ever get

905
00:46:48.280 --> 00:46:50.360
<v Speaker 3>to meet the best version of their mom and dad

906
00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:53.719
<v Speaker 3>because of the struggles that they were going through due

907
00:46:53.800 --> 00:46:58.639
<v Speaker 3>to shame, stigma, judgment from the community, and the loss

908
00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:02.679
<v Speaker 3>of their parents. So, for me, it runs so deep.

909
00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:05.679
<v Speaker 3>It's a generational effect. It's one of those things that,

910
00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:09.760
<v Speaker 3>like we said before, it wasn't Jonathan, and so that

911
00:47:09.880 --> 00:47:13.519
<v Speaker 3>means somebody else was allowed to live a life, possibly

912
00:47:13.559 --> 00:47:16.320
<v Speaker 3>even hurt other people and get away with it. So

913
00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:19.840
<v Speaker 3>the idea that there is still attention on it is

914
00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:23.239
<v Speaker 3>so interesting and I don't know if the proper word

915
00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:27.960
<v Speaker 3>is exciting, but it is because there's generations of people saying,

916
00:47:28.599 --> 00:47:32.559
<v Speaker 3>we still have time, Please show us some semblance of

917
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:35.960
<v Speaker 3>you know, accountability. In this case, You're never going to

918
00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:39.519
<v Speaker 3>get justice because Harry and Megan are gone, but please

919
00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:43.719
<v Speaker 3>give us somebody to hold accountable so that Jonathan's name

920
00:47:43.800 --> 00:47:46.800
<v Speaker 3>is finally relieved to some extent, maybe Cheryl doesn't have

921
00:47:46.840 --> 00:47:49.360
<v Speaker 3>to look over her shoulder as often, and maybe this,

922
00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:53.320
<v Speaker 3>you know, grandchild of Harry and Megan, can have just

923
00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:56.519
<v Speaker 3>another piece of a healing puzzle to say, I didn't

924
00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:58.760
<v Speaker 3>even know them, and yet it's rocked my life that

925
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:01.559
<v Speaker 3>they were taken from us. So to me, it's that

926
00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:05.719
<v Speaker 3>long term generational effects that you never know, one call,

927
00:48:06.079 --> 00:48:08.440
<v Speaker 3>one little piece of evidence that someone doesn't even think

928
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:11.760
<v Speaker 3>it's significant, could change the whole trajectory of these people's future.

929
00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:15.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, my heart really goes out to Cheryl and Jonathan

930
00:48:15.639 --> 00:48:18.239
<v Speaker 1>and their child because this is truly one of those

931
00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:23.840
<v Speaker 1>cases where you see the ramifications of a miscarriage of justice.

932
00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:26.719
<v Speaker 1>Not only did they have to deal with the deaths

933
00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:30.280
<v Speaker 1>of Harry and Meghan and the incredible emotional weight and

934
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:33.840
<v Speaker 1>impact that that had, but having to deal with Jonathan

935
00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:37.639
<v Speaker 1>being incarcerated, then being let out a year later, and

936
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:42.000
<v Speaker 1>then the social stigma that accompanies that because the fact

937
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:45.519
<v Speaker 1>that this was covered intensely in England as well as

938
00:48:45.559 --> 00:48:50.159
<v Speaker 1>it was in Wales is something that I'm sure impacted

939
00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:53.000
<v Speaker 1>them because you're getting that side eye from random people

940
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.440
<v Speaker 1>or the people you know are whispering about you behind

941
00:48:55.480 --> 00:48:58.920
<v Speaker 1>your back and then to be the child growing up,

942
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.679
<v Speaker 1>and that is the reality. Like Ashley said, you don't

943
00:49:01.719 --> 00:49:05.000
<v Speaker 1>get to meet that version of your parents before all

944
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:08.079
<v Speaker 1>of this happened. There's an innocence that has been stolen,

945
00:49:08.679 --> 00:49:11.000
<v Speaker 1>and then almost an innocence of that child that is

946
00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:14.239
<v Speaker 1>stolen as well. And I keep going back to that

947
00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:18.920
<v Speaker 1>plummy voiced individual that was at the solicitor's office with Harry.

948
00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:21.920
<v Speaker 1>I keep thinking that there has to be some connection.

949
00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:24.199
<v Speaker 1>There has to be somebody that thought that they would

950
00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:27.039
<v Speaker 1>financially benefit from this, or thought that they had some

951
00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:29.960
<v Speaker 1>right to the farm. It's so hard for me to

952
00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:33.360
<v Speaker 1>grasp that this could just be a potential thrill kill

953
00:49:33.800 --> 00:49:36.760
<v Speaker 1>and that somebody just decided to go to this farm

954
00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:40.800
<v Speaker 1>and annihilate whomever was there and it happened to be

955
00:49:40.840 --> 00:49:43.559
<v Speaker 1>Harry and Meghan, and that they were just so nice

956
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:46.039
<v Speaker 1>to invite some random stranger into their home and offer

957
00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:48.679
<v Speaker 1>them tea while they were in the middle of cooking dinner.

958
00:49:49.239 --> 00:49:52.559
<v Speaker 1>It feels to me, and I obviously can't know all

959
00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:54.840
<v Speaker 1>things are in play until we know who this eighty

960
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:58.039
<v Speaker 1>six year old individual is, if he is indeed responsible,

961
00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:01.800
<v Speaker 1>but just feel like it has to be somebody known

962
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:02.400
<v Speaker 1>to the couple.

963
00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:05.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. As you probably know, at the end of every year,

964
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.239
<v Speaker 2>I like to release special update episodes of The Trail

965
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:10.239
<v Speaker 2>Went Cold in which I chronicle a lot of the

966
00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:12.559
<v Speaker 2>cases that I've covered on the podcast which have either

967
00:50:12.760 --> 00:50:15.760
<v Speaker 2>been solved or had major developments over the past year.

968
00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:18.360
<v Speaker 2>And of course, at the end of twenty twenty five,

969
00:50:18.440 --> 00:50:21.840
<v Speaker 2>I released Update episode number seven for the podcast. But

970
00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:24.239
<v Speaker 2>right before it was about to drop, I suddenly heard

971
00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:27.119
<v Speaker 2>this news about an arrest in the twos murder's case,

972
00:50:27.159 --> 00:50:30.840
<v Speaker 2>and it was like, Wow, wasn't expecting this to close

973
00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:32.880
<v Speaker 2>off the year. So I instantly thought, we have to

974
00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:35.239
<v Speaker 2>talk about this one on the path went Chili and

975
00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:37.920
<v Speaker 2>revisit it now that we have this news, because I

976
00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:40.199
<v Speaker 2>hadn't listened to my original episode in a while, and

977
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:43.199
<v Speaker 2>I was like looking through my old script and looking

978
00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:45.480
<v Speaker 2>for clues about this eighty six year old man, and

979
00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:47.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking to myself, Oh, yeah, I'd forgot about this

980
00:50:48.039 --> 00:50:52.360
<v Speaker 2>plumby voice stranger who visited this solicitor's office with Harry.

981
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.639
<v Speaker 2>I wonder if this is the man they're referring to.

982
00:50:54.719 --> 00:50:57.480
<v Speaker 2>And also that mysterious man in the trench code who

983
00:50:57.519 --> 00:50:59.679
<v Speaker 2>was seen walking down the road about a week before

984
00:50:59.719 --> 00:51:02.679
<v Speaker 2>the murder. So the pieces of the puzzle are starting

985
00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:04.920
<v Speaker 2>to come together here, but we just still don't know

986
00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:08.199
<v Speaker 2>the full truth. And of course, when I first learned

987
00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:11.639
<v Speaker 2>about this case, I never believed that Jonathan Jones was guilty.

988
00:51:11.719 --> 00:51:14.559
<v Speaker 2>I just thought the original police investigation was a travesty

989
00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:18.880
<v Speaker 2>where they compromised potential evidence by not securing the crime scene.

990
00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:21.239
<v Speaker 2>It appeared they had a major case of chunnel vision

991
00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:24.559
<v Speaker 2>against Jonathan and they took him to trial with extremely

992
00:51:24.679 --> 00:51:28.559
<v Speaker 2>weak evidence, and thankfully the higher courts the thought that

993
00:51:28.599 --> 00:51:31.880
<v Speaker 2>the conviction was a miscarriage of justice and the immediately

994
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:35.400
<v Speaker 2>released Jonathan from prison after only one year. But it

995
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:37.480
<v Speaker 2>still caused a lot of trouble for him and Cheryl

996
00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:40.320
<v Speaker 2>because he was still recognized as a convicted murderer in

997
00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:43.679
<v Speaker 2>the eyes of the law, and Cheryl also lost both

998
00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:45.559
<v Speaker 2>of her parents and a lot of people thought that

999
00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:48.719
<v Speaker 2>she was remaining in a relationship with their killer. But

1000
00:51:49.079 --> 00:51:51.519
<v Speaker 2>regardless of whether this eighty six year old man is

1001
00:51:51.559 --> 00:51:54.719
<v Speaker 2>ever charged and ever spends any time in prison, I

1002
00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:57.760
<v Speaker 2>think this news does show that Jonathan is finally going

1003
00:51:57.800 --> 00:52:01.079
<v Speaker 2>to receive full vindication. So hopefully the authorities at some

1004
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:04.480
<v Speaker 2>point announced that he's factually innocent and say that he's

1005
00:52:04.519 --> 00:52:08.480
<v Speaker 2>officially been exonerated, even give him some compensation for the

1006
00:52:08.559 --> 00:52:10.599
<v Speaker 2>year that he had to spend in prison for a

1007
00:52:10.639 --> 00:52:13.639
<v Speaker 2>crime he did not commit. So yeah, hopefully we learn

1008
00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:16.480
<v Speaker 2>the full truth about what happened and that this eighty

1009
00:52:16.519 --> 00:52:18.760
<v Speaker 2>six year old man faces justice if he is in

1010
00:52:18.800 --> 00:52:21.639
<v Speaker 2>fact guilty, because for many years this has been a

1011
00:52:21.679 --> 00:52:23.639
<v Speaker 2>major head scratcher to me and I would love to

1012
00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:25.760
<v Speaker 2>learn the full truth about what actually happened.

1013
00:52:26.960 --> 00:52:28.440
<v Speaker 4>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

1014
00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:29.960
<v Speaker 4>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

1015
00:52:30.679 --> 00:52:33.039
<v Speaker 2>Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

1016
00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:36.880
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

1017
00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:40.320
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

1018
00:52:40.360 --> 00:52:43.199
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

1019
00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:45.840
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon if you join our five dollars

1020
00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:49.920
<v Speaker 2>tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes in

1021
00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:53.079
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

1022
00:52:53.159 --> 00:52:56.440
<v Speaker 2>the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,

1023
00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:59.239
<v Speaker 2>and if you join our highest tier tier free, the

1024
00:52:59.320 --> 00:53:02.239
<v Speaker 2>ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is

1025
00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:06.599
<v Speaker 2>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsaved Mysteries,

1026
00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:09.840
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

1027
00:53:09.880 --> 00:53:13.119
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

1028
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:16.519
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

1029
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:19.679
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

1030
00:53:19.679 --> 00:53:23.119
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

1031
00:53:23.159 --> 00:53:26.000
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

1032
00:53:26.039 --> 00:53:28.800
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

1033
00:53:28.840 --> 00:53:31.559
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

1034
00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:34.599
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

1035
00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:35.400
<v Speaker 2>Tier three.

1036
00:53:35.599 --> 00:53:37.119
<v Speaker 4>So I want to let you know a little bit

1037
00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:40.079
<v Speaker 4>about the Jeueles and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

1038
00:53:40.119 --> 00:53:43.000
<v Speaker 4>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

1039
00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:45.840
<v Speaker 4>Path Went Chili mini's, which are always over an hour,

1040
00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:48.079
<v Speaker 4>so they're not very many, but they're just too short

1041
00:53:48.119 --> 00:53:51.119
<v Speaker 4>to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those.

1042
00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:53.360
<v Speaker 4>So we hope you'll check out those patreons.

1043
00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:54.880
<v Speaker 1>We'll link them in the show notes.

1044
00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:57.280
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

1045
00:53:57.400 --> 00:53:59.719
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

1046
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:02.800
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated.

1047
00:54:02.920 --> 00:54:06.159
<v Speaker 2>You can email us at the Pathwentchili at gmail dot com.

1048
00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:08.920
<v Speaker 2>You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin. So

1049
00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:11.639
<v Speaker 2>until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold

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<v Speaker 2>trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

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<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy