WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.120 Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to 2 00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:04.679 you today about a way that you can help support 3 00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:08.199 the podcast if you're not already to support the channel 4 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:11.880 is to become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon 5 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:14.919 memberships that start at just five dollars a month, and 6 00:00:15.080 --> 00:00:17.600 when you sign up, you get access to all of 7 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:20.839 our episodes add free. That's the big bonus for that. 8 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:24.000 I mean, we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for 9 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:27.920 our subscribers, but this is the biggest and best way 10 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:32.320 that you can support the Teamhouse channel and podcast if 11 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:35.280 you'd like to, and we really appreciate that, So go 12 00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:39.640 and check us out at patreon dot com, slash the Teamhouse. 13 00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:53.399 Special Operations Cobert OPSSPI, and I the Team House with 14 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:54.359 your Hopes. 15 00:00:55.320 --> 00:01:01.960 Jack Murphy, Hey guys, this is episode three hundred and 16 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:04.680 eight of The Teamhouse. I'm Jack here with Dave and 17 00:01:04.760 --> 00:01:07.959 our guest on tonight's show is Hugh Kia. He served 18 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:11.799 in three Para doing deployments through deployments to Afghanistan, tu 19 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:14.680 to Iraq, a couple in Northern Ireland, and he is 20 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:19.280 also the host of the h Hour podcast and Hugh. 21 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:21.840 Before we jump into the interview man h hour, I 22 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.040 sense is it somewhat of a similar mission statement to 23 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:27.439 what we do here, except on the other side of 24 00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:27.840 the pond. 25 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:31.239 Yeah, it seems like it. I think there's there's definitely 26 00:01:31.319 --> 00:01:33.439 cross over between the two, and it's you know, you've 27 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:35.640 got a long form going on. It sounds like you 28 00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:38.760 interview people you're pretty much interested in, predominantly from a 29 00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:43.359 military or or military adjacent background, So I think, yeah, 30 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:46.680 seems seems pretty similar, except mine mostly Brits and yours 31 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:47.439 are mostly. 32 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:50.640 Who what kind of people do you? What kind of 33 00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:53.439 Brits do you have on your podcast? Oh? 34 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:57.120 Man? But it's starting off, you know, predominantly my network 35 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:00.680 is dominic X military and next military mail, so's ex 36 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:03.920 military male. And now I go into all sorts of 37 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:12.960 different areas, so from experts in psychedelics and medicine and psychology, politicians, musicians, 38 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:17.560 it's predominantly ex mill But you know, it goes the 39 00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:19.719 bigger the network gets, the more access you've got to 40 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:22.439 other people, you think they'd be a good chat too. 41 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:27.000 That's awesome. Well, yeah, congratulations. I hope people will go 42 00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:30.960 check out each hour get a different perspective on a 43 00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:34.479 similar topic, right, but you let's let's start off. I 44 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:38.120 want to hear a little bit about you. Tell us 45 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:41.199 about you know, how you grew up and how that 46 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:44.919 took you towards the British military. 47 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:49.400 Yeah, that's a good question. So I think you know 48 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:50.960 a lot of a lot of people who end up 49 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:54.199 in the military do so because they've got family who 50 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:55.960 are in the military, and it's kind of almost a 51 00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:59.240 right of passage in some families and or it's expected. 52 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:03.120 Wasn't the case for me. I grew up. I grew 53 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:05.919 up in in in Wales, Wales which is part of 54 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:08.120 the United Kingdom, you know, next to England, but it's 55 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:10.240 definitely not in England. It's not to be not to 56 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:15.199 be confused between the two countries, right, And I grew 57 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:16.879 up on a farm in the middle of nowhere, you know, 58 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:20.680 like four three or four miles away from the nearest neighbor. 59 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:23.680 Was literally no one around. So I spent a lot 60 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:26.439 of my time out and about doing what you do 61 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:29.240 when you're all You've got his countryside and you and 62 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:32.759 your dad's are keen, keen clean countryside enthusiast in the 63 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:35.759 most positive way I mean that. So we went out 64 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:38.319 rambling you know, he was out showing me how to shoot, 65 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:43.560 and I just learning, learning, learning all about it. So 66 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:47.759 that's where I grew up, and uh I ended up. 67 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:51.199 I basically ended up. Initially, I wanted to join the 68 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:53.280 Air Force, which is obviously not where I ended up. 69 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:56.759 I'm not sure why I wanted to join the Air Force, 70 00:03:56.919 --> 00:04:00.599 but I think I had a feeling that I wasn't 71 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:04.120 really I wasn't really happy with myself. I was quite 72 00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:07.280 low self esteem, really low self confidence. I'm not quite 73 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:08.800 sure where it is. I think it's because I quite 74 00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:13.400 an isolated up bringing in terms of like social opportunities, 75 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:18.439 Like there was animals, There wasn't many kids, you know well, 76 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:20.279 and they don't talk very much. They talk a little bit, 77 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:21.879 but I haven't a clue when they say it. But 78 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:23.839 when you know, when you grow up, most people that 79 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:25.959 grow up and they finished school and they're out socializing 80 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:28.560 with their friends and then on the weekend of socializing 81 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:30.160 with their friends. And I didn't really have that. So 82 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:33.720 I think my social skills development was just really poor. 83 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:35.839 And I think that as you grow up, when you 84 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:38.399 become a teenager and you just more of these internationals 85 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:43.199 expected and like social status becomes a conscious thing, and 86 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:45.000 the way you interact with other people and they interact 87 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:48.240 with you actually impact how positive or negative you feel 88 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:50.439 about yourself. I think it really impacted me. So I 89 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:54.199 was really the real self confidence, low self esteem going 90 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:57.319 into you know, into my teens, and I think that 91 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:00.560 I saw the military is not with you. Unity to 92 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:03.319 sort of prove myself to myself, if that makes sense. 93 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:05.439 Really that's what it is. It wasn't for anyone else. 94 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:07.879 It was kind of approving myself, how you're not a loser, 95 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:11.600 You've got something about you. And really the only thing 96 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:15.120 I had gone about the times I'm pretty fit. I 97 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:17.399 was physically fit, but physically fit from the waist down, 98 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:20.079 Like from the waist up, it was just skin and 99 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.519 bottom the waist down. I died like three trunks just 100 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:24.680 from running on all the hills when I was grown up, 101 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:32.839 you know. And so yeah, South Wales looking at the RAF, 102 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:35.720 the Royal Air Force. I needed. I think I wanted 103 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.759 to go into aviation engineer or something random like this 104 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:42.680 that I've seen in a book about career opportunities in school. 105 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:46.360 I needed a levels for that, which is our college 106 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:49.120 college qualifications. I don't know what you call them. Over there. 107 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:51.040 But it's you know, you go from your normal school 108 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:53.360 stuff into college. Needed A levels. It's a couple of 109 00:05:53.399 --> 00:05:56.480 years to do that, and I got college royally wrong. 110 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:03.160 One I wasn't attention and to I set up a website. 111 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:05.399 This is like the nineties, so I was away ahead 112 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:08.160 of the curve. I set up a website which was 113 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:13.319 neath college sucks dot co dot uk and it wasn't 114 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:15.759 And I thought I'd been really clever and hiding my track, 115 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:19.199 but I wasn't. I aster leave the college before I pushed. 116 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:21.399 So I wish I had still had that website, but 117 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:25.920 I don't anymore, and so I left. I had no 118 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:27.720 A levels, that couldn't join what I wanted to do 119 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:31.120 in the RAF And there was an advert on TV 120 00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:33.839 at the time for saying I'll go and spend twenty 121 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:36.560 four hours with the Paris. I had very little knowledge 122 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:38.600 of the Powers or any of the military really, and 123 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:40.959 I went and spent twenty four hours down in a 124 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:43.480 place called all the Shot, which is in England. It's 125 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.519 not too far from London, and that's where that was 126 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:48.480 the home of the Powers at the time, and you 127 00:06:48.519 --> 00:06:50.920 basically go and spend twenty four hours. They show you 128 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:53.639 all the nice shiny weapons systems and the nice uniforms 129 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:55.959 and all a lot of the guys who were serving 130 00:06:56.319 --> 00:06:58.279 the time, and you do all the cool military stuff, 131 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:02.000 none of the horrible military stuff. And there was a 132 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:05.639 fitness assessment which was basically a run a mile and 133 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:07.680 a half. I was a mile and a half warm 134 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:09.720 up and then a mile and a half best effort, 135 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:12.040 and I won that and then I thought, yeah, I 136 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:13.560 said I'm going to join. I'm going to join the 137 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:18.360 Paris and I signed up for that immediately, but it 138 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:20.360 took about It took me about six months before I 139 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:24.319 was I could even start training because my my mother's Irish, 140 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:30.560 so Republic of Islands and immediately meant extended security. At 141 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:32.360 the time, it was sort of the tail end. It 142 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:35.360 was the tail end of the normal island the troubles 143 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:38.800 as they known of a here. We were still we 144 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:41.480 still had an active operation going on in Northern Ireland 145 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:44.600 and they need across the t's and dot the eyes 146 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:47.160 and make sure I wasn't the wrong kind of person 147 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:51.079 getting into There was a lot of people get left 148 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:56.319 got left off the family tree. With that that was admitted. 149 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:00.800 The reality is is that that I and so small. 150 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:05.600 You know, everyone's red, but be related to a terrorist 151 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:07.600 like a member of the IRA or at least someone 152 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:09.800 who helped them a few times. And it was there's 153 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:11.680 at least one person I knew at the time who 154 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:14.959 he was, I don't remember, twenty or thirty years older 155 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:16.680 than me, and he was used to be a gett 156 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:19.600 away driving for the RA after they'd been dropping bombs 157 00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:22.519 off and things. I was just claim to fame, so 158 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:23.000 to speak. 159 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:25.439 So there's a there's a little bit of fiction on 160 00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:30.360 your entrance clearance there, but that that that is an interesting, 161 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:33.080 you know thing, and something interesting that you know, the 162 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:35.200 British government did have to deal with, right I mean, 163 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:37.679 I can understand that they'd be concerned about that. 164 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:42.840 Yeah, yeah, And you know, the reality is is that 165 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:45.879 we were until very recently in our history in the UK, 166 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:49.919 we were having terrorist bombings on home soil by by 167 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:53.440 people who were born in the UK, you know, or 168 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:56.000 they were south of the border in Ireland. So you've 169 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:57.919 got Northern Island, and you've got the Island of Island, 170 00:08:57.960 --> 00:08:59.720 and you've got nordn Island, which is part of the UK, 171 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:03.279 and below that is the Republic of Ireland and the 172 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:06.200 terrorists want, they want that to be reunited, and they 173 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:07.679 don't want the UK to be any part of it. 174 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:10.320 And they were planting bombs and blowing people up in 175 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:14.799 the UK, London, Birmingham, you know, all the shop different places. 176 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:16.919 They do it in Northern Island as well. But that 177 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:19.759 wasn't that long ago. It's pretty crazy when you think 178 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:22.000 about it. I was growing up in times like that. 179 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:25.039 You just these days you think of terrorism, you think 180 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:27.519 it comes from overseas, as in, it comes from a place, 181 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:29.399 a country which they don't look like you don't speak 182 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.240 the same language, and they can't possibly understand your culture. 183 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:34.720 And the reality is it wasn't. It was. It was homegrown, 184 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:38.080 so to speak, and it made for pretty challenging operations. 185 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:40.639 You know. Yeah, when you when you you're going out 186 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:42.960 to do current insurgency operations or any kind of operation 187 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:45.840 against an enemy who speaks exactly like you speak. They 188 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:48.120 grew up in the same culture you did. They know, 189 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:51.320 they know exactly how you operate. They don't look that 190 00:09:51.399 --> 00:09:55.200 much differently, they don't dress that much differently. Really difficult, 191 00:09:55.639 --> 00:09:58.639 really difficult. It turns out we're pretty cunning, yell. 192 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:02.320 I'm sure we'll get into that a bit. But so 193 00:10:02.519 --> 00:10:05.200 you joined the paaras tell us about you know, your 194 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:08.480 intake what kind of like selection process, there is a 195 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:10.240 training to just get into this unit. 196 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:16.879 Yeah, the so on paper on paper, I think the 197 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:20.519 first the first two phases of joining an infantry unit 198 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:23.200 in in in the British Army, you've got a phase 199 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:25.559 one of the phase two right pretty much for everyone, 200 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:28.600 and the phase one is basic basic idustry skills, and 201 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:31.559 in phase two you're normally gone to you start specializing 202 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:33.279 in the tredes if you weren't going to infantry, if 203 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:35.559 you're going to engineers or something like that, in phase 204 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:38.000 two would be oriented around that, and then some other 205 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:40.200 units will have a phase three with its extended learning, 206 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:44.440 particularly technical fields you know infantry. So it's just phase 207 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:47.440 phase one of the phase two. With the difference being 208 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:49.840 for the Paras different to every other infantry unit in 209 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:52.440 the British Army is that we have a selection at 210 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:56.000 the end of phase two. So it's not just the 211 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:58.679 case of okay, past your basic tests and demonstrated basic 212 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:00.480 knowledge and phase one of the phase two and you're 213 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:03.639 into unit. You go to demonstrate those as a minimum 214 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:07.399 and then do your selection at the end and then 215 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:09.840 maybe you'll be selected. Even if you pass the selection, 216 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:13.080 you may be failed, but just ignoring that for a 217 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:16.320 second sort of the phase one, the phase two takes 218 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:19.440 about eight months, seven or eight months. I think it's 219 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:23.000 still the same now question finish, Yeah, yeah, I think 220 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:26.240 phase one is like twelve weeks. The first six weeks 221 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:28.399 you're on you're on camp, you don't get to go home. 222 00:11:29.559 --> 00:11:32.120 And then after the six week period you have like 223 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:34.879 a sort of the first formal piece of hey, you 224 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:37.279 know your basics now, and you do a little parade 225 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:40.080 on the on the parade square and you get given 226 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:42.879 like I think at that point you give At that point, 227 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:45.120 we were given it like a Maroon beret. You had 228 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:47.360 the powers cat barge on it, but it had like 229 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:49.840 a green backing stuck behind it to demonstrate that you 230 00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:51.919 were real powers, just in training. But you get to 231 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:55.519 wear the and the cat batch and you wear that 232 00:11:55.639 --> 00:12:00.559 then continuously throughout. For me, the first the first twelve 233 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:04.480 weeks phase one were pretty they were pretty all right. 234 00:12:04.759 --> 00:12:07.399 I thought, I didn't find it difficult. I don't recall 235 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:10.960 finding it difficult. I think the you know, the instructors 236 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:14.600 I had, they were I would describe him as pretty 237 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:18.480 easy going. You know, you, guys, you experience in training 238 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:20.159 will differ to the next guy who went through all 239 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:22.480 dependent on the year you went through. Who you had 240 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:25.200 instructed you. Did you have decent guys, did you have lunatics, 241 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:27.000 did you have violent guys, did you have people that 242 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:29.120 took noble shit, or did you have people that didn't 243 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:31.399 want to be there? And for me that that Phase one, 244 00:12:32.200 --> 00:12:34.080 I had a bunch of guys. There were great instructors. 245 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:37.519 It was just pretty laid back, I thought for most 246 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:39.720 of them, at least the section commander I had is 247 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.000 in charge of my ten twelve guys were super laid back. 248 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:48.720 And the problem with that for me was that that 249 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:51.440 was not setting me at well for Phase two, which 250 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:54.039 was like carnage. I went from I went from having 251 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:57.039 this laid back crew to go into phase two and 252 00:12:57.080 --> 00:13:02.960 just having a bunch of like psychopaths and uh yeah, yeah, 253 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:04.480 so yeah, I was kind of I kind of left 254 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:06.759 phase one after that twelve weeks still kind of being 255 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:09.559 the low self esteem, those sorts of confidence guy, but 256 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:12.039 not realizing it. It's like this false sense of confidence 257 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:14.679 that gives me. Yeah, than twelve weeks I'm a real 258 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:19.120 soldier now and I wasn't. Phase two became back ship 259 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:21.200 and also it was it was a change in location 260 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:23.919 as well. So our Phase one time was done in 261 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:27.840 the Birmingham area, which is like west of England, and 262 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:29.000 there's not a lot of there's not a lot of 263 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:33.080 hills there, there's not a lot of mountains, so the 264 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:35.320 training area is pretty limited. And the Phase two we 265 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:39.519 moved up to an area called Katrick which is in 266 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:45.159 North Yorkshire. And North Yorkshire is north of England. It's cold, 267 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.879 it's miserable, you know. That's why everyone everyone in North 268 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:51.399 England's like pretty tough because they just have to deal 269 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:54.679 with hardship, like people from Boston, right, just like they 270 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:56.799 just grow up in misery. So they just like the 271 00:13:57.600 --> 00:13:59.960 hardcore people. It's like north of England, the same with Wales. 272 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:03.480 In Wales is the same just miserable island too. And 273 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:06.039 so I had like that that change in sceniory, change 274 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:11.120 in surroundings and up to Phase two where we went 275 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:13.039 to where we went to Phase two stopped me ear 276 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:17.000 if you want to stop everything, yeah, so we went 277 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:22.759 to Phase two. The changing surroundings was also that the 278 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:27.440 Paris training location there on the barracks Hell's Barracks it 279 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:29.840 was called at the time. I was at the time. 280 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.399 It was right next to it was on a massive camp, 281 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:35.399 a big training camp, and there were lots of other 282 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:38.720 units there, lots and lots of other units there. So 283 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:42.039 one of the so one of the reasons that it 284 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:45.480 was kind of quite chaotic and quite a lot more, 285 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:49.679 a lot tougher, i'd say, dealing with the staff I 286 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:52.360 had anyway, is that not only that they were trying 287 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:55.399 to train us in being the best that we could 288 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:58.919 be to go to the units, they're also trying to 289 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:03.559 teach us to absolutely detest and loathe anyone that wasn't 290 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:07.120 like in training to be in the Paris or even 291 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:10.759 anyone any soldier who wasn't wearing that cap attue was you. 292 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:12.799 You literally don't speak to them, you don't look at them. 293 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:15.240 They're not they're not worthy, They're not worthy of your attention. 294 00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:18.840 Are we recruits? As we told this, and I kind 295 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:20.799 of got it. It's like one of the one of 296 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:23.360 the differences we have, one of the advantages we have. 297 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:27.440 I think, well, it isn't advantage, it's that power of 298 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:31.039 recruits go away through We were only trained predominantly only anyway, 299 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:34.600 most of us are only trained by other Paris, so 300 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:38.279 all other units they'll be trained by anyone. So if 301 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:40.159 I want to join, I don't know, let's say the 302 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:42.799 Rifle's Regiment or any other regiment. I can go to 303 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:46.279 a training unit. I could have one instructors from could 304 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:49.279 be the Paris one instructor from the Royal Irish Regiment, 305 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:51.480 one instructor. You have a mix, and I think that 306 00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:55.240 I think I think that shouldn't be the case because 307 00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:58.600 I think it. I think in most cases it kind 308 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:01.559 of walks down the emotion an investment that an instructor 309 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:03.879 has in training up a recruit. That recruit could be 310 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.000 going to any unit. Whereas if you're training up recruits 311 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:09.279 so you know your unit, I think you take a 312 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:13.759 bit more pride in this pilot turd goes to because 313 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:16.159 what happens is if when I got the three parrot 314 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:18.840 and you get some idiot come from training, the first 315 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:20.759 thing you ask is who you're instructor? Who's your instructor, 316 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:23.320 because you want to know who's who trained this map 317 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:24.960 it up? Or you want to go and ask that 318 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:28.159 instructor what the hell happened, Like why is he through. 319 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:31.039 So we we were only trained by ourselves and that work. 320 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:33.039 I think that works well because we have this sense 321 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:38.159 of pride, real sense of pride and elitism drilled into us, 322 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.440 so we put extra effort into training our guys. It 323 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:42.080 wouldn't work so well if you didn't really give it 324 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.600 down or unit didn't really give it down, you know. 325 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:47.480 And and the reality is and also the instructors. I 326 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:51.080 mentioned the selection process at the end of Pea Company, 327 00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:55.200 at the end of phase two earlier. Instructors want all 328 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:56.559 the guys to pass. The want as many as the 329 00:16:56.559 --> 00:16:58.440 guys to pass is to come. They don't want to 330 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:00.519 fail because it demonstrates how good the structor they were 331 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:02.919 getting the guys to that point. You know, that doesn't 332 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:04.559 mean they don't want to drop people off. They won't 333 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:06.079 bin people off, you know. 334 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:09.799 But you go to Paris selection and it's inverted right 335 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:12.079 and there there there's instructors want to see how many 336 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:13.319 people they can get to drop out. 337 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:17.799 Yeah, yeah, yeah, basically, I mean, I mean I started 338 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:19.839 when I started in phase one, there was sixty three 339 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:23.680 of us. And when when I finished, when when I 340 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:26.519 got the battalion, there was twelve or fourteen it was 341 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.359 who got through all the way? Yeah, who got through 342 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:33.119 all the way? Which is a pretty pretty big like 343 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:34.960 failure rate, so to speak. But a lot a lot 344 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:37.680 of those, you know, most of those numbers they dropped 345 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:40.279 off pretty early on in Phase one and phase two 346 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:43.400 because especially Phase two, it was so it was so challenging. 347 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:45.720 It was literally, you know, it was there was no 348 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:49.079 room forever, the smallest area was hammered. And I get why, 349 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:56.079 but in that particular, you know, training team violence was 350 00:17:56.119 --> 00:18:00.680 always not always like a go to for fix this problem, 351 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:03.519 you know, And part of the issue I had was, 352 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:05.319 like I said, I was like super nervous. I was 353 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:08.200 all panicking, Like in my head, I was always panicking 354 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:10.359 as I'd make mistakes, tiny things, and I would just 355 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:11.920 get battered for it because you know what it's like, 356 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:13.799 you make one mistake, and if you're not in the 357 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:16.960 right mindset, it just creates another mistake, right, another mistake, 358 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:19.039 you start overthinking, another mistake. And I was in that 359 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:21.720 early on in phase two, I found out the hard 360 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:24.400 way really hard. I hated it. I hated it initially, 361 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:31.599 but got there, got to the selection and managed to 362 00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:32.079 pass it. 363 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.599 Hugh, I'm gonna flip it over to Dave here for 364 00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:38.279 a quick word from our sponsor and we'll jump right 365 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:38.920 back into it. 366 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:42.559 So if you guys sleep hot at night, you know 367 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.359 just how disruptive it can be. Whether you're having trouble 368 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:47.519 falling asleep, you're waking up sweating in the middle of 369 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.319 the night, or all the above. That's where ghost bed 370 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:52.799 can help. As the makers are the coolest beds in 371 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:55.559 the world. Ghost bed is your go to for cooling mattresses, 372 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:59.519 cooling pillows, and even cooling bedding. 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Tomorrow, I will be at 395 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:18.319 an event in Hackensack, New Jersey, ninety two Kennedy Street, Hackensack, 396 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:22.759 New Jersey, sponsored by a Triple A Lot Design clothing company, 397 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.279 and I'll be there at eleven am and we're going 398 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:26.960 to be talking about the book and some of the 399 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:31.720 stuff in here covers Detachment A, Detachment KA, green Light, 400 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:34.640 Blue Light, the Commanders in Extremist Force, some things that 401 00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:37.400 haven't been written about before. So I'm excited about it 402 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:39.160 and I hope to see at least some of you 403 00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:40.799 tomorrow morning. 404 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:44.640 And for our podcast listeners. That's that's on the ninth. 405 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:47.359 So by the time you've heard this, yeah, that's yeah. 406 00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:49.799 So don't show up tomorrow when you hear this. 407 00:20:50.839 --> 00:20:53.720 And and please check out our Patreon there's a link 408 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:56.519 down the description. If you sign up, you get access 409 00:20:56.559 --> 00:20:59.160 to all these episodes ad free and support the channel. 410 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:01.960 We really appreciate it you guys keep this whole thing going. 411 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:04.079 So Hugh back to you. 412 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:08.720 Yeah, Hugh, real quick, from the the numbers that dropped, 413 00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:13.960 what percentage of if you can take as we're self select, 414 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:17.240 and then what percentage were like blowed out by the instructors. 415 00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:25.359 I man, you asked me, no, I I'd say inficenty 416 00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:29.480 of seventy percent with sound select. Yeah, like mentally you know, 417 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:31.920 I mean the phrase will be rang the bell we 418 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:34.480 don't have. Mentally you've spin out. And then the other 419 00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:39.319 thirty percent were gone. A very small amount would have 420 00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:42.359 gone back basically gone back to a previous platoon. Hey, 421 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:45.240 a different training platoon. We've gone back a step. Need 422 00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:47.200 to redo. This could be life firing. It could be 423 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:48.960 say I fund on the weapon. It could be you 424 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:52.440 know something critical. You're going back all fitness, Yeah, fitness, 425 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:55.799 go back and others would just get down. Did I 426 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:57.920 say about seventy percent with sound select. 427 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:01.920 Yeah, I think that's probably true of all of them, Yeah, 428 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:02.440 all of them. 429 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:02.880 Yeah. 430 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:06.799 Yeah, It's amazing how many people go into these processes 431 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:11.920 and decide that it's just not for them midway through 432 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:12.640 or part way through. 433 00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:16.000 Yeah. I think, you know, I think they just have 434 00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:19.440 a I don't know. It's a combination of what Some 435 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:22.359 people have just been pure ignorance. Some people be over confidence. 436 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:24.079 Some people won't know what they're doing. You know a 437 00:22:24.119 --> 00:22:26.200 lot of people who a lot of people who join 438 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:28.319 up what we're here is because they've got a lack 439 00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:30.200 of options. And it was definitely part of what it 440 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:32.000 was with me. I sort of lot. I didn't really 441 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:33.400 know what I wanted to do. I saw a lack 442 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.759 of options, and yeah, this is something and and it's 443 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:42.880 also for sure they mismanage your own expectations, don't lie 444 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:45.200 how hard things are going to be. And that has 445 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:47.079 to be more the case of these days, you know 446 00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:50.440 where things are pretty easy. Yeah, when you go these days, 447 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:52.319 they were pretty easy when I was growing up, but 448 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:54.000 relatively speaking, a lot easier now. 449 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:59.079 Yeah, and then what were are there any good slang 450 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:01.119 words at the pair would use, like when they were 451 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:04.480 conditioning you against the non pairs, Like what what were 452 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:08.599 some of the words that the pairs called the other units? 453 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:13.279 There's two man, well there's one main one, so we 454 00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:18.559 would refer to other units as crap hats, crap hats. 455 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:21.599 And the reason being is that so so we've got 456 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:24.480 you know, we've got algy normal standard dress, and we've 457 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:28.799 got a ceremonial dress. So for us, the head dress, 458 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.240 we wear our beret. That's all we wear. We wear 459 00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:33.839 that ceremonial dress, wear that standard dress is like, we 460 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:37.160 don't have any option. But most are the units, with 461 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:39.960 the exception of one I found out recently, most of 462 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:42.480 the units, if not all, apart from our tank reagiment, 463 00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:46.279 they have the beret. But then for the ceremonial dress, 464 00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:50.279 they wear these like weird cap things. I say weird. 465 00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:52.279 They're really common, but to me they're weird and they 466 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:54.599 make them look like a postman somewhat. So you just 467 00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:56.839 the crap I don't just stay away from the crap hats. 468 00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:01.119 And the other one was, which was less commonly just 469 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:05.240 non ferocious. Stay away from the non Ferocious's not they're 470 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:10.839 not worth every time. Yeah, I mean, yeah, being taken 471 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:13.039 on a little bit by other other We've been taken 472 00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:14.920 on my a few crap outs recently units and they 473 00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:16.839 tend to say, they tend to say, it's a bit 474 00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:19.400 of slammed earth. You want to meet someone else a 475 00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:22.720 bunch of crap outs, and I think you are too. 476 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:29.519 Before yeah, but before, before we move on, let's talk 477 00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:32.480 a little bit about what the pairs actually are, especially 478 00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:36.680 for the Yank audience listening to this that maybe isn't exposed. 479 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:39.720 I mean, the parents are a storied unit in a week, 480 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:43.759 you know, airborne infantry unit within the British military. I mean, 481 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:45.440 tell us a little bit about the unit and its 482 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:46.200 history if you can. 483 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:51.240 Yeah. So, so we're relatively young, you know, the British 484 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:53.480 obviously you've got an esteemed history of military going back 485 00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:57.319 hundreds of years, and so we're pretty young in terms 486 00:24:57.319 --> 00:25:00.200 of military city in in in the British Force is 487 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.880 and people do take they do got great pains to 488 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:06.000 try and point out as a weakness, but I like 489 00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:07.880 to see it as a a we're model. You know, 490 00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:10.480 we're not. We don't have all these troops crazy tradition 491 00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:13.640 holding us back, but we were formed in nineteen forty two, 492 00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:17.799 and it was it was actually Churchill who called for 493 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:21.640 he sort of Germans had sort of Germans had deployed 494 00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:25.480 paratroopers in I think forty one or forty maybe, and 495 00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:29.039 the Germans had actually had a horrendous casualty rate when 496 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:32.960 they did it, and Churchill thought, hey, that's sound like 497 00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:37.720 a great idea. That's that's the reality. What happened. We 498 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:40.519 needed we need airborne, we need airbone infantry. And what 499 00:25:40.599 --> 00:25:44.119 they actually did was they they they basically started training, 500 00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:46.000 They got ass of volunteers from different units and they 501 00:25:46.039 --> 00:25:51.039 put together put together an everyone unit and became originally 502 00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:53.480 known as Commandos and then later on became the Parachute 503 00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:56.119 Regiment and actually went through a couple of litererations early on. 504 00:25:56.359 --> 00:25:59.000 But yeah, so nineteen forty two when we were formed. 505 00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:02.440 Might be a little off on my history, but I 506 00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:05.000 think we may have gotten our maroon berets from you 507 00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:06.119 guys actually. 508 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:08.920 Okay, yeah, well yeah, the maroon bays are pretty common 509 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:09.319 across them. 510 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:12.359 Well, yeah, I think it was the exposure to the 511 00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:15.680 American forces to the British that that came from. 512 00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:19.039 Yeah, well the moon the maroon actually was Yeah, so 513 00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:21.519 the maroon color was actually chosen by are you who 514 00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:25.640 have a general or field marshal. We ended up as Montgomery, But. 515 00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:29.279 I thought, wasn't it the wife of one of the 516 00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:30.599 officers that chose the color? 517 00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:32.799 Yeah, exactly, it was Monty's wife. 518 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:36.920 Yeah, yeah, that's that's where the American Airborne got their 519 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:39.920 maroon berets from. Also, it originated with you guys. 520 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:44.079 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense sanch where 521 00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:46.559 it came from. So it was forty two. Yeah, But 522 00:26:46.599 --> 00:26:49.119 I mean originally the intent was and still now, the 523 00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:54.440 you know, the the the the the main function, the 524 00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:59.960 capability of our regimen is shock troops, you know, deployed 525 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:03.440 un animalized quickly and function you up basically, you know, 526 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:06.720 just cause mayhem and to enable other operations to go on. 527 00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:10.920 That's how, you know, that's how our main wartime role. 528 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:14.440 That must be the same for your your pretty much. 529 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:15.440 Yeah. 530 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:18.559 I mean it's the ultimate flanking maneuver, right to parachute 531 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:20.759 behind enemy lines and hit them where they don't expect 532 00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:21.000 you to. 533 00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:24.400 Be right, Yeah, exactly exactly. We're the only we're the 534 00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:27.799 only unit of the British Army whose whose sole purposes 535 00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:31.559 you know, power, power, insertion. 536 00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:34.880 Basically, And so they did operations in World War Two. 537 00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:37.119 I take it, mm hmm. 538 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.079 Lots and lots of operations. Lots and lots. I could 539 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:43.240 reel them off if you want a battle on his office. 540 00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:45.680 Let's hear it, Let's hear it, let's go. This is 541 00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:48.000 this is the Power Appreciation Podcast. 542 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:54.559 So you okay, Bruneval out in the Reville Ryan, the 543 00:27:54.640 --> 00:28:04.599 Rhine crossing on them, Normandy, Primasile break Athens, somewhere else 544 00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:08.039 I can't remember, somewhere else I can't remember, and then 545 00:28:08.119 --> 00:28:11.200 Funtlands and the ninety two. 546 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:14.359 Do you have any ideal offhand? I know I'm kind 547 00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:15.559 of putting you on the spot, but do you have 548 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:20.279 any idea how many airborne combat operations they did during 549 00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:20.599 the war. 550 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:21.799 Oh? 551 00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:25.319 I couldn't tell you. Hundreds, okay, hundred? Yeah, yeah I could. 552 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:26.680 I couldn't. I couldn't read left them. 553 00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:31.079 But it's interesting that on the American side, the Rangers 554 00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:33.960 were not airborne during World War Two. That didn't happen 555 00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:37.359 until Korea. But the one hundred and first first who 556 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:40.920 are not airborne today were during World War Two and 557 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:43.839 they jumped into uh into Normandy and did all that. 558 00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:47.000 Yeah, one first on ample and today. 559 00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:51.160 They're ir mobile. They're they're in helicopters going from point 560 00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:53.359 A to point B. They're not they're not parachuting. 561 00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:56.440 No, don't you still though have do they still have 562 00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:58.079 the airborne designator on. 563 00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:01.680 The They might have an airborne tab, yeah, that might 564 00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:02.799 still be there, but they're not. 565 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:05.240 Yeah, yeah, they're airbile. 566 00:29:05.640 --> 00:29:07.519 I didn't know that. I didn't know that. No, I 567 00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:10.400 didn't know that. Well, I'm sure, so when did that 568 00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:12.960 happen because I I've just come back from on and 569 00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:14.759 well I said, just come back by two months ago, 570 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:16.759 just come back from on them, which obviously was Operation 571 00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:19.240 Market Garden. You guys are were Yeah, yeah, yeah. So 572 00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:21.240 there's always a lot of Americans out there. And I'm 573 00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:24.799 sure I jumped into them, and not in nineteen forty four, 574 00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:29.160 but I did it in like two thousand and nine, 575 00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:32.599 I think it was no yet the nine maybe, And 576 00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:35.079 I'm sure I jumped with one hundred and first. I 577 00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:36.599 jumped the young air Frahim. 578 00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:40.720 You know, it's it's possible that they were one hundred 579 00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:43.559 and first guy that went to airborne school and was qualified, 580 00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:46.839 I mean, or somebody who was in the one hundred 581 00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:48.599 and first and had their combat patch and then went 582 00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:51.039 to an airborne unit. I mean, it's it's possible, sure. 583 00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:54.440 Jumping with Americans, by the ways, it's different cattle fishes 584 00:29:54.519 --> 00:29:55.400 jumping British. 585 00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:56.039 What's it. 586 00:29:56.119 --> 00:30:00.799 What's the difference between the two, Well, some structure and 587 00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:05.039 order in how we send the sticks out. We'll go 588 00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:07.440 out half a second each side, half a seconds to 589 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.279 stop the Now. When I jump with the Americans, with 590 00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:14.319 you guys, it was it seemed to be every man 591 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:19.839 for himself. And what surprised me most was people are 592 00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:22.720 really eager to get out the door. It's not the 593 00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:25.680 case for those like you know, Okay, we'll get up 594 00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:27.240 and get out. We're hot, we're hert and sweatly, but 595 00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:28.759 we'll get out when we get out. And you know, 596 00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:31.039 some people aren't finally jumping because that obviously the injury 597 00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:33.880 rates really high. But we jump with When I jump 598 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:35.680 with the US one and they was like they were 599 00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:37.759 gagging to get out. I don't know what's going on. 600 00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:40.519 I think I think part of that, especially like with 601 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:43.240 the eighty second, I think part of that might be 602 00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:46.680 just because the sheer number of people they're trying to 603 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:48.839 get off a bird at one time in each pass 604 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:54.359 that they're just these mass tack like passes where you 605 00:30:54.440 --> 00:30:56.640 know it's just raining bodies from the sky. 606 00:30:56.759 --> 00:30:58.160 Well hopefully not raining. 607 00:30:58.240 --> 00:30:58.839 But you know. 608 00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:02.440 The control descent semi control. 609 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:07.039 Yeah, yeah, because you guys like. 610 00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:11.319 Like stealing air and things like that probably aren't major 611 00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:13.680 concerns for you guys when you're jumping right that you 612 00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:17.279 spaced out and you're spaced out as quorderly enough. 613 00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:21.000 Uh. You know, we'd always when we jump, we always 614 00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:24.160 try and jump this close together position, so a half 615 00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:28.160 a second, so you know you when when this when 616 00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:30.599 the simsticks going out the door, when you've got the 617 00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:33.279 people listening on the way, you've got blokes jumping out 618 00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:37.039 both sides of the air for him half the chancefer 619 00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:39.759 and the air steels still pretty high. You know. One 620 00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:40.920 of the one of the things I like to do 621 00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:42.359 when to go out and watch jumps and on him 622 00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:44.680 is spent what four hours laying down my back on 623 00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:46.279 the on the on the drop zone looking up and 624 00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:51.279 along with everyone else going steel. You don't you know 625 00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:54.759 they let the controlled easy descent and not the ones 626 00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:56.640 you're looking for. You're looking for the ones which. 627 00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:06.720 Something's never changed. Yeah, so you make it through Paris selection. 628 00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:09.400 Tell us about being like a young guy, new recruit 629 00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:11.400 showing up in the unit and what that's like. 630 00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:16.119 Oh man, well again it's like a he loved you 631 00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:18.400 into falstense of security of things. Did phase one yet 632 00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:20.680 thought yeah, great in phase two that was like carnage, 633 00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:24.519 and then finished phase two, got did selection past selection. 634 00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:28.599 I was selected, I should say I was selected again, 635 00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:30.599 and you think yeah, like I saying when the powers now? 636 00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:37.359 And got the battalion and and it became it was man, 637 00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:39.720 it's like walking into a meat grinder. You know, you 638 00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:44.079 think you think you've made it, you think there's nothing 639 00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:45.839 else you need to prove, and you walk into the 640 00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:50.240 unit and you realize that you're the smallest fish in 641 00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:52.279 a lot of people have been there for a while, 642 00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:54.519 all of these people. You all of a sudden realized 643 00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:57.319 I was looking up to these people nine months ago, 644 00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:59.359 eight months ago, nine months ago, these I was looking 645 00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:01.240 at these guys in thinking this is the reason I'm joining, 646 00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:03.200 And now you're in there with him and expected to 647 00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:09.559 be the same standard. And it was pretty daunting, pretty daunting. 648 00:33:10.039 --> 00:33:12.480 I ended up in a room, an ape Man room, 649 00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:18.640 where I first got put into really basic and I 650 00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:22.200 had a mate in there actually, who I had from training, 651 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:26.519 and I broke my hand on selection. So I had 652 00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:28.759 been delayed to get into the unit because I needed. 653 00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:30.599 After you do selection, you do like a live fire 654 00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:34.680 and exercise, final exercise and something else, and so I'd 655 00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:36.160 been delayed going on to that. So I came a 656 00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:38.319 few weeks later and I got and put into a 657 00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:43.319 room with him, and he he we were chatting with 658 00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:45.599 literally my first hour in there. We were chatting away 659 00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:49.279 and he came. A guy came into the room who 660 00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:52.680 looked pretty young, and I said, all right, mate. Whatever 661 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:54.440 I said to him called him mate. Whenever however he 662 00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:56.039 was speaking, I referred to him his mate. And he 663 00:33:56.119 --> 00:34:00.559 walked out on my friend ben Uh who actually went 664 00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:04.880 on to British s F. He said he was looking 665 00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:06.480 in and he was like a ghost, and he said, 666 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:09.639 what are you doing? I said, what's it? He said, 667 00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:11.400 you called him mate? Who is he? 668 00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:19.360 He said, he's a corporal, like it's the Minister of Defense. 669 00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:23.360 But I wasn't expecting that. I was expecting, Hey, it's 670 00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:25.119 big boys rules. I've like, you know, I've passed my 671 00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:26.960 driving test kind of there, I can drive whatever I want. 672 00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:29.400 I've done all my training, I can do what I want. 673 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:31.960 I'd have to call corporates corporal and I wasn't the CASS. 674 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:34.920 I just called. He's one of the most respected and 675 00:34:35.320 --> 00:34:38.159 formidable corporals in the unit. He also went on to 676 00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:41.440 s F as well, and yeah, it's sort of oh 677 00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:45.800 ship in this world again, going to try and you 678 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:48.079 get through it. But it was hard and fast, you know, 679 00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:53.440 it was it was. It was January two thousand and one, 680 00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:56.480 I think when I got to the unit, and it 681 00:34:56.559 --> 00:35:01.320 was kind of a weird time because the British Forces 682 00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:05.199 at the time, our operational temple was not high. We 683 00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:08.519 had a few small things going on every now and again, 684 00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:11.119 and you know, a regiment would deploy and do some 685 00:35:11.239 --> 00:35:14.159 peacekeeping or something like that. The exception had been had 686 00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:18.360 been a there'd been an operation hostage rescue mission into. 687 00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:22.880 What was that s right, Yeah, we had we had 688 00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:25.360 Phil On talking about it, Phil. 689 00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:29.320 Camph did you okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So 690 00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:33.960 so that was you know Paris, Paris Marines and and 691 00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:37.360 s A S and s BS when that So that 692 00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:39.119 happed the year before. But apart from that, nothing much 693 00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:42.119 have gone on. And you know, when when the operation. 694 00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:45.000 I don't know what it's like the US MILL, but 695 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:49.599 I imagine him like when the operational temple is low, 696 00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:54.159 people get real board real quickly. Tension is really poor, 697 00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:58.199 Recruitment is pretty poor, and the kind and the people. 698 00:35:58.519 --> 00:36:01.320 You end up with a big pool of people who 699 00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:05.159 are in who are senior, who haven't actually done a 700 00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:06.880 lot right, and. 701 00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:07.599 You get it. 702 00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:11.320 It's very it's very a very different environment I know 703 00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:14.360 now to being in when the operational temper was really high. 704 00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:17.599 You know, you end up doing just bullshit tasks, bullshit tasking, 705 00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:21.400 bullshit training. It's just very repetitive. You know, you've got 706 00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:25.960 commanding officers who have taken over, for example, three Power 707 00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:28.000 for two years, who want to make their mark. They 708 00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:31.000 want to get there the CBE or mb that they 709 00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:33.239 want to get the knighthood of their award from, you know, 710 00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:36.679 the Buckingham Palace for amazing service of the country, And 711 00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:39.039 how can I do that when there's no operation going on. 712 00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:41.480 They invent ways, they're trying to reinvent the wheel. It 713 00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:44.119 just becomes friend So it wasn't a pretty place to 714 00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:48.760 be at the time. It was difficult, but then obviously, 715 00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:50.800 you know the two thousand and one like I sellar Generator. 716 00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:55.440 I joined and then September everything changed, literally everything changed. 717 00:36:55.480 --> 00:36:58.800 I deployed to Ireland, Northern Ireland the end of twousand 718 00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:01.639 and one of the Christmas. They're the first operational tours 719 00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:05.000 in norm Island, and again that was winding down, so 720 00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:08.000 it wasn't that interesting. I mean, I don't even remember 721 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:10.440 it being that exciting. I remember a little bit of 722 00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:14.920 trepidation going out my first patrols around the areas are in, 723 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:18.519 but nothing crazy. There was nothing real kinetic going on. 724 00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:21.320 Tax and things at the time in Nordon Island were 725 00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:25.119 directed inward to themselves as into the local populace if 726 00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:27.960 anything was going on, or towards the police, very little 727 00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:31.280 towards British troops because the Nord Island Peastie and all 728 00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:33.159 this had been signed and it was winding down and 729 00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:36.440 British troops a pulling out of there slowly. So that 730 00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:38.880 was all of it an anti climax. But you know, uh, 731 00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:42.239 nine to eleven happened and the world was changed forever, 732 00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:46.760 and probably allus has changed forever as well. 733 00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:50.039 And tell us about that, about how things changed and 734 00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:52.840 your unit deploying, and you know that first pump over 735 00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:55.239 to I don't know if it was Afghanistan or Iraq 736 00:37:55.320 --> 00:37:57.000 first for you, but what that was like. 737 00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:03.800 Yeah, that was I mean I was actually at home 738 00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:07.519 on leave when when that all started unfolding. And by 739 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:11.159 that time, we moved off of the mountain and we 740 00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:13.320 moved down into a little village in the valley floor 741 00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:15.599 right next to a couple of rugby pictures, and I 742 00:38:15.639 --> 00:38:17.320 was going out to the kick a ball about the ball, 743 00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:19.719 and this thing unfolded on TV. And I was sat 744 00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:22.960 there for hours later, five minutes later, still my my 745 00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:25.000 rugby boots on my rugby ball. I hadn't gone anywhay. 746 00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:26.599 I was just sort of captured by what was going on. 747 00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:28.280 I don't think I really understood what it's gone all 748 00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:30.639 the time. I was only young. I was very naive 749 00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:33.480 where military was concerned and just globe du you know, 750 00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:41.000 global politics was concerned. And when I returned to the 751 00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:44.920 unit after leave, you know, like maybe a week or 752 00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:47.760 so later, it was it was just something different in 753 00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:49.880 the air. We knew we we kind of had an 754 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:52.280 inkling that people are going to start deploying. We didn't 755 00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:54.199 know what. We didn't know, we didn't know who, we 756 00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:56.360 didn't know where so just all of it happened the 757 00:38:56.400 --> 00:39:03.880 air and my my actual first global war and terror operation, 758 00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:06.719 if you like, was was matter of fact, it wasn't 759 00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:08.280 the global war and terror was the Iraq Vision, the 760 00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:10.199 Vision of Iraq in two hundred and three. That was 761 00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:13.599 the first related thing I did. But before that there'd 762 00:39:13.639 --> 00:39:19.119 be deployments into Afghanistan. Cabul marines went and two Power 763 00:39:19.239 --> 00:39:23.280 went on that. But my first big big off was 764 00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:26.920 into yeah, the Iraq ovasion of Iraq. 765 00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:29.639 Tell tell us about the invasion then, I mean, that's 766 00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:32.599 a hell of your first pop. That's pretty hardcore. 767 00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:37.199 I remember getting told about it, Remember getting told about 768 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:41.679 it and told we were going. Uh. I remember being 769 00:39:41.719 --> 00:39:44.440 like elated. I was driving, I got a phone call 770 00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:46.239 similar to deploying to Iraq, and I remember being like, 771 00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:48.559 can I get a phone call? I remember we anyway 772 00:39:48.559 --> 00:39:50.199 at the point I was elated about it, as in 773 00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:52.800 my car driving home, I remember like shouting out loud, 774 00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:55.480 going to war, Yes, go to war. And I think 775 00:39:55.519 --> 00:39:58.039 back and I think pretty naive that we reacting like that, 776 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:00.679 like excitement, But the excitement happiness was a bit a 777 00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:04.039 little bit too elevated. But again we were, you know, 778 00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:06.000 kind of off the back of that period of nothing 779 00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:08.199 going on, and the prospects of nothing going on every 780 00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:11.679 in your career was becoming pretty pretty obvious. Sort of 781 00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:18.079 the trans war it was was exciting. We started we 782 00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:21.440 started a beat up process, you know, a pre deployment 783 00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:27.039 training very early on. But that was the first sort 784 00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:29.440 of example there I saw of what sort of continued 785 00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:33.000 for a few years where our ability to our capability 786 00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:36.960 to train train ourselves for these other types of operations. 787 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:39.199 I mean, even though the war war type, like the 788 00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:42.039 Iraqi version was we kind of weren't there. We still 789 00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:47.360 had like our training regime and our training, our TTPs tactics, 790 00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:51.719 techniques and procedures and everything was geared up for Northern Ireland, 791 00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:56.400 Northern Island mainly, and like peacekeeping missions in Kosovo or 792 00:40:56.480 --> 00:40:59.000 Bosnia wherever we were, and that kind of continued on 793 00:40:59.079 --> 00:41:02.599 even to Afghanistan where where it just wasn't wasn't good enough. 794 00:41:03.559 --> 00:41:06.440 So the the Iraq training beat up was was a 795 00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:11.800 lot of conventional the two company attack like stuff. We 796 00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:15.920 did a we did a massive defensive exercise which was 797 00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:18.679 we jumped in we jumped into a drop zone in 798 00:41:19.400 --> 00:41:23.320 in Salisbury plane which is kind of southern England, west 799 00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:26.199 of west of London, big open area. We dropped in 800 00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:30.119 there for a tender exercise, pure defensive, jumped in with 801 00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:34.800 a crazy amount of kit and as you always do. 802 00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:40.000 I think we marched in maybe fifteen mile ten or 803 00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:42.840 fifteen miles through the night, through the next day and 804 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:45.440 then just started digging trenches stage three as we would 805 00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:49.639 call them. So you're the full full war style trench 806 00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:53.360 to two fire to fire because say fire pits, they're 807 00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:58.679 not fire pits. Yeah, yeah, fire trench either side, wriglely tins, 808 00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:01.159 tin in the middle, earth of the top so they 809 00:42:01.159 --> 00:42:07.000 can standing a chemical biological editing attack, which took like 810 00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:09.280 two days. It was one of those have you ever done? 811 00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:11.159 Have you ever done those kind of exercises? 812 00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:16.559 Not not full trench lines, just fighting individual or like 813 00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:17.519 in body pairs. 814 00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:21.480 Yeah, you know, yeah, terrific. The first time I experienced hallucination, 815 00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:25.159 well to sleep deprivation because it was just madness. But 816 00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:27.239 you said, you spend all day because you're digging with 817 00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:29.519 to day, you spend all obviously you've got your patrols out, 818 00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:31.599 you've got centuries out, but most people just dig it. 819 00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:35.960 You spend all day looking for where the engineers are 820 00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:38.800 with their like their digger trucks come along to help 821 00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:40.440 and you see them coming up the line help the 822 00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:41.920 different trenches and then by the time they get to 823 00:42:41.960 --> 00:42:44.000 your trench, maybe they helped them get out or maybe 824 00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:45.599 you get the guys in, put some explosives in and 825 00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:48.119 blow it and it almost always makes the trench worse, 826 00:42:48.239 --> 00:42:51.159 makes more work for you, just taves it in. Like fuck. 827 00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:56.159 We did that. Did that horrific in terms of sleep deprivation, 828 00:42:56.400 --> 00:43:01.559 effort and and a lot of life firing in an 829 00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:03.880 area called Breck and Sennybridge Training Area, which is like 830 00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:07.119 is our main infantry sort of training area in the UK. 831 00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:10.719 It's in it's in Wales. Conveniently it's about half an 832 00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:15.559 hour from where I grew up, which is good and uh. 833 00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:18.119 And then we headed off to Q eight Again that 834 00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:20.840 was a big unknown, you know, I think we were expecting. 835 00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:25.119 We were definitely expecting full, full on, full scale war 836 00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:29.159 fighting for us. The reality was for that is that 837 00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:32.480 most British units didn't didn't have that. We had some 838 00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:37.719 low real low level contacts, you know tics. Some units 839 00:43:37.719 --> 00:43:41.480 had a bit more than others. The armor was really 840 00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:44.599 the ones the units that had a lot, but we 841 00:43:44.840 --> 00:43:47.519 had very little infantry, infantry wise, and we were all 842 00:43:47.559 --> 00:43:50.679 pretty naive to it as well. I remember I say 843 00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:52.880 naive to it. We were. We were pretty wet behind 844 00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:54.400 the US when it came to any form of compact, 845 00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:56.320 you know, because none of us have done any of 846 00:43:56.320 --> 00:43:58.119 it ever. And again going back to the point about 847 00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:00.599 the kind of people who are in command positions, almost 848 00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:03.119 everyone in the command positions in that unit three para 849 00:44:03.559 --> 00:44:06.800 had done no form of combat whatsoever. They've never been 850 00:44:07.239 --> 00:44:09.920 never been shot at, never shot at anyone else. There 851 00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:12.840 was a handful of people who had been who had 852 00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:15.199 served in the Falcon Islands in ninet eighty two when 853 00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:18.119 the when Nigentina invaded, and they were you know, they 854 00:44:18.199 --> 00:44:22.639 had they had literally done the heart most hardcore, hardcore fighting, 855 00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:27.280 but twenty odd years before, and there were only a 856 00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:29.280 few of them, so their impact was very little, and 857 00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:31.239 we really looked up to them. But you know, those 858 00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:34.079 guys were they weren't in command positions. They were like 859 00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:37.760 court the masters and things like this, or long engagement 860 00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:40.320 officers to Ellie and Ellie is what we call that. 861 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:43.519 A guy who's or a girl who's gone all the 862 00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:45.920 way through the ranks from private all the way up, 863 00:44:46.119 --> 00:44:48.119 and then they basically get invited to stay on and 864 00:44:48.199 --> 00:44:51.039 they get converted into a commission, convert to captain and 865 00:44:51.079 --> 00:44:52.960 stay on. And there was a few of those, so 866 00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:55.360 apart from them, no one knew anything really in terms 867 00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:58.760 of the realities of combat. I remember being sat in 868 00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:01.280 the trench and we are getting wh and I said 869 00:45:01.519 --> 00:45:04.159 a shell script was a trend to shell scrip maybe 870 00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:07.559 a couple of feet deep, and the Ramala oilfields and 871 00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:11.719 when we're getting artilleried, and the guy next to me 872 00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:15.800 was still a good friend now Tom, and he's a 873 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:18.239 little bit of panic. So what we're going to do 874 00:45:18.360 --> 00:45:24.440 if what we're going to do if we get hit nothing, Mate, 875 00:45:26.199 --> 00:45:28.000 you can't do buddy, that We're going to be fucked. 876 00:45:28.159 --> 00:45:29.960 We're going to be fun, he said, you are. Don't 877 00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:31.760 speak like that. Don't tell them, well, you know what 878 00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:34.440 you what you're talking about? This guy, you know the 879 00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:37.840 kind of reality, the reality of the situation here, and 880 00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:41.519 uh and that and that. You know. That was kind 881 00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:45.039 of an example of sort of the Navy fast forward, 882 00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:49.639 fast forward three four years, and it was a very different, 883 00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:52.559 different experience for everyone. People are very very different at 884 00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:56.199 that point, you know, so Iraq always a put of 885 00:45:56.199 --> 00:45:58.519 an anti climax rye unit. Some guys had a good 886 00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:01.239 time in terms of that. Sally got you know, they 887 00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:04.559 they pop the channel, so to speak. I didn't really 888 00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:10.679 you know, got we got artillery, big deal. We had 889 00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:14.280 no we had no close quote or any court, my 890 00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:17.400 my section, my platoon anyway, no form of engagement whatsoever. 891 00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:19.920 The nearest we got to that was we went out 892 00:46:19.960 --> 00:46:23.280 on a We went out to ambush the Ford, the 893 00:46:23.400 --> 00:46:28.039 Ford observation officer, the Iraqi Ford observation officer was coming 894 00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:31.000 forward on a motorbike getting his binders out, trying to 895 00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:32.519 spot where we were, and the bugger off. He was 896 00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:35.960 just out of range. Bugger off, and then they artillery 897 00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:37.639 we come in, and so we went out to ambush him. 898 00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:40.079 We went out one height, he didn't turn that he 899 00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:43.000 didn't turn up next morning, and then another plat out 900 00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:44.760 the next day and they shot him up and got them, 901 00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:46.360 but we didn't get them. As the closest we got 902 00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:49.480 really a big an my Max. Which was weird because 903 00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:52.159 we came back from there and everyone we were treated 904 00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:55.760 as heroes, like, well, amazing, he did all this crazy stuff. 905 00:46:55.840 --> 00:47:01.639 It's like yeah, you don't want to say, you know 906 00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:05.400 what I mean, my parents and everyone else in the house. 907 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:09.480 Yeah, they're headed you a beer and you just nod 908 00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:11.559 your head. Yep, that's exactly how it happened. 909 00:47:12.039 --> 00:47:14.079 But yeah, yeah, but again, but then, but then that's 910 00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:16.679 a matter of perspective, right, because even if I said 911 00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:18.480 to him, well, this is what we did, they still go, wow, 912 00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:23.719 that's amazing. Yeah, okay, you just thought again, shot, that 913 00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:24.239 is amazing. 914 00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:27.000 How long How long was your first pump? How long 915 00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:27.800 were you guys out there? 916 00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:33.719 That was so four four months? Four and half months. Yeah, 917 00:47:33.800 --> 00:47:35.760 So we ended up we did like a couple of 918 00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:39.079 months of war and then we went into the when 919 00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:42.440 the peace keeping all the post war phase kicked in. 920 00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:49.880 We ended up moving to patrol the Iranian border because 921 00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:52.880 there was a concern that there was a concern that 922 00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:56.039 the Iranians were trying to kick start an insurgency like 923 00:47:56.239 --> 00:47:59.079 immediately and they were smuggling weapons across the border, which 924 00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:01.679 they were right, So we would go over patrol the 925 00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:04.920 border in vehicles, patrol the border. That's pretty fun because 926 00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:07.280 he the border area. I don't know if you've been 927 00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:08.679 in the border area, like the said in the rock 928 00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:10.599 with it on. It's it's like flat as a pancake, 929 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:14.000 you know, it's it's all marsh and you've got raised roads, 930 00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:17.800 dirt tracks. You can see a vehicle four or five 931 00:48:17.880 --> 00:48:20.320 kilometers away. You can see the dust. So if we'd 932 00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:23.679 spot them, spot people doing a deal on the side 933 00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:26.880 of the road, mainly when we got hair ass chasing 934 00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:29.199 after them, they see us coming, they see us coming, 935 00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:31.239 but it still wouldn't stop going. As a good catch, 936 00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:33.000 it was a bit of fun, you know, we get 937 00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:35.199 there and they'd chuck all the weapons and they chuck 938 00:48:35.239 --> 00:48:37.079 all the car there weds of cash, they chuck all 939 00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:39.199 the cash and we bring that back in. Sometimes we 940 00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:42.079 catch people and bring them in for for a question. 941 00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:47.679 But it was again, it was pretty It was pretty timid, 942 00:48:48.320 --> 00:48:51.599 pretty timid, you know. It definitely definitely not was expected. 943 00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:54.000 There was what I was expecting in reality is what 944 00:48:54.079 --> 00:48:55.840 we got in two thousand and six on the first 945 00:48:55.960 --> 00:48:58.519 Afghan Tal, but that's not what happened. 946 00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:01.199 Tell us about that. Then about the next trip over 947 00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:03.679 to Afghanistan, I. 948 00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:06.320 Actually went back to Iraq, actually three I went back 949 00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:09.039 to Iraq and then the five which was a little 950 00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:11.880 bit different. You know, they'd switched to that. By that 951 00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:16.119 point I d's were front and center of the of 952 00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:19.920 the modus operande of whether it was decided to attackers. 953 00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:24.400 So it's very different. But again not a huge amount 954 00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:27.480 went on. And then in two thousands, not for myself anyway, 955 00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:29.760 and then in two thousand and six when we were 956 00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.679 in Afghanistan, so that was that was known as Operation Herrick, 957 00:49:32.840 --> 00:49:36.119 Operation Herrick four. Actually there'd been three operations before in 958 00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:39.760 but the three before basically establishing our base, which was 959 00:49:40.079 --> 00:49:44.400 Camp Bastion, it was called HERK four was the first 960 00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:48.679 time that combat troops had been sent in and that 961 00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:51.400 was that was that was three Power battle group. So 962 00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:55.519 it was our battalion for three power of which probably 963 00:49:55.639 --> 00:50:00.159 five hundred six hundred powers with a few if you 964 00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:03.679 had added on to that, and then a battlegroup. The 965 00:50:03.760 --> 00:50:05.559 rest of the battle group was to support as is 966 00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:08.519 like two thousands strong, so logistics, engineers, you know, all 967 00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:14.039 the usual that would come along, medics and and specialist signals, coms, 968 00:50:14.079 --> 00:50:18.599 guys and all that. That was also pretty much an 969 00:50:18.679 --> 00:50:21.880 unknown going in. I remember I remember there was a 970 00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:25.320 there was an interview with a politician at the time, 971 00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:28.159 I forget his name. And he'd said that he hopes 972 00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:31.079 that he hopes that the operation would go without a 973 00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:34.440 shot being fired, is what he said. And the mission 974 00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:38.320 was to go in and basically go and take control 975 00:50:38.760 --> 00:50:41.920 of not to take control, but have a presence in 976 00:50:42.039 --> 00:50:46.400 key areas in in Hellman Province, so to basically lay 977 00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:51.440 the lay the ground for reconstruction, provincial reconstruction where it 978 00:50:51.519 --> 00:50:54.000 was needed, and to stay the lights like local government 979 00:50:54.239 --> 00:51:00.320 and minimize Taliban minimized Taliban influence in those areas. So 980 00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:02.199 he said, not shot being fired, and then six months 981 00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:05.559 later that we've done over a million or a million rounds. 982 00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:10.400 I think he got it way wrong. You got it 983 00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:15.079 way wrong. Yeah, we went. I mean that was our 984 00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:19.760 beat up training for that was in Oman. Now by 985 00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:23.800 that point, I mean, you know, I said, Iraq had 986 00:51:23.840 --> 00:51:27.039 been the two tours there being pretty much an anti climax, 987 00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:29.159 but didn't take it away from the pack. And now 988 00:51:29.199 --> 00:51:32.239 we were used to deploying what the operator, what you 989 00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:35.519 have deploying operations is like different mindset of switch switches. 990 00:51:35.559 --> 00:51:39.920 The different expectations you'd have, don't have any expectations. Anything 991 00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:42.079 gets thrown from the type accommodation you're going to be 992 00:51:42.119 --> 00:51:44.840 in to how often you see that accommodation to the 993 00:51:45.159 --> 00:51:47.800 how much water you're going to be getting, so the 994 00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:50.079 weapons systems you're going to be using, and that was 995 00:51:50.079 --> 00:51:54.599 no difference with with Afghanistan. But the difference was that 996 00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:57.280 there was a definite difference in the beat up training. 997 00:51:57.519 --> 00:52:00.079 And that is because I think the history of of 998 00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:04.199 Afghanistan is so different. Like you know, the Brits have 999 00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:08.199 been beaten up pretty badly in Afghanistan before Russia got 1000 00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:11.360 smashed pretty recently relatively beginning of that point in Afghanistan before. 1001 00:52:11.480 --> 00:52:13.239 It's not a it's not a place to be trifled with. 1002 00:52:14.920 --> 00:52:16.920 And it was a great book. There is a great 1003 00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:23.400 book called The Bear Went Over the Mountain. Yeah, I was, yeah, 1004 00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:27.960 it's it's it's interviews with Russian commanders from the seventies 1005 00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:31.880 and eighties and they're trying to understand basically after action reviews, 1006 00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:34.320 but a whole book of it and where they went wrong. 1007 00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:36.679 Why why the Mudji had Dean? We were just to 1008 00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:39.639 just do them over and and you know, in summary, 1009 00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:42.719 because the Muddia had Dean. The people of Afghanistan mainly 1010 00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:44.559 who are part of the Jahadeen and now the Taliman 1011 00:52:44.599 --> 00:52:47.639 they're pretty savvy, like they know how to they know 1012 00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:50.599 how to fight, they know to fight the foreigners, and 1013 00:52:51.079 --> 00:52:53.440 I think we knew that. So the beat of training 1014 00:52:53.480 --> 00:52:56.039 going in was very different. We spent The last thing 1015 00:52:56.039 --> 00:52:58.679 we did was we spent three weeks in Oman, and 1016 00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:00.920 by that point I was with the sniper platoons, so 1017 00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:03.039 I'd gone to the sniper patuone in two and four 1018 00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:09.119 and so within within three powers only. The way, yeah, 1019 00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:11.760 the way it works with our snipers is you can 1020 00:53:11.800 --> 00:53:14.000 get badged, so you can you can be invited to 1021 00:53:14.039 --> 00:53:21.159 go and attempt the sniper course. The selection if it's 1022 00:53:21.159 --> 00:53:23.239 not a selection selection for the unit, but the sniper 1023 00:53:23.320 --> 00:53:25.320 course we come back to the unit, you may get 1024 00:53:25.400 --> 00:53:27.519 invited to go into the into the sniper of platoon. 1025 00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:31.159 And the way the snipers work is we will very 1026 00:53:31.239 --> 00:53:33.920 rarely operate as a platoon, but we will go and 1027 00:53:34.599 --> 00:53:38.199 put one or two snipers to different sub units, different teams, 1028 00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:42.039 different different sections, different companies to support whatever they're doing. 1029 00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:46.920 So in oh Man, that's very much where we where 1030 00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:50.159 we focused our training. It was on you know, shooting 1031 00:53:50.199 --> 00:53:55.000 in those kind of conditions, and we'd also been graced 1032 00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:58.960 with quad bikes, you know, like ATVs, so we were 1033 00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:00.880 trying to get trying to work out how best to 1034 00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:02.639 use it. We haven't asked those It's kind of just 1035 00:54:02.679 --> 00:54:04.679 been chucked as you know, like you get the big 1036 00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:06.800 operation staff, lots of money gets thrown in and often 1037 00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:08.159 you get a lot of kids. Think what we're going 1038 00:54:08.199 --> 00:54:09.639 to do with this. We got given a bunch of 1039 00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:11.920 cord bikes and did a lot of training with those, 1040 00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:16.800 and and then and then, and then, and then deployed 1041 00:54:17.199 --> 00:54:19.320 afghan Definitely a different feeling went out there than it 1042 00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:21.880 was to Iraq. The first time we went to Iraq 1043 00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:25.679 for the war. It just seemed more serious if we 1044 00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:28.599 just everyone just seemed very serious. Was like like we 1045 00:54:28.639 --> 00:54:30.800 knew ship was going to go down, but you didn't 1046 00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:33.840 quite know why. And again, I think it's just down 1047 00:54:33.880 --> 00:54:37.880 there the history of that place. I mean you said 1048 00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:41.239 you were in Helmand, Yeah, yeah, the first time when 1049 00:54:41.559 --> 00:54:42.480 I was in Helmand. 1050 00:54:42.199 --> 00:54:44.840 Yeah, I mean, that's like one of the most contentious 1051 00:54:44.920 --> 00:54:46.480 parts of the hit dire country. 1052 00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:50.280 It was. Yeah. I mean at the time, we weren't 1053 00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:53.039 clear on just how active the Taliban were there and 1054 00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:55.760 how many they were and how how and what their 1055 00:54:55.760 --> 00:55:00.079 appetite was for having a square and the first I 1056 00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:02.440 think the first four or five four or five weeks 1057 00:55:02.480 --> 00:55:06.280 where we were deployed, nothing happened, you know. We we 1058 00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:10.159 I remember going I remember being in a place called Goesh, 1059 00:55:10.239 --> 00:55:12.239 a little town called Goes, and we knew there was 1060 00:55:12.280 --> 00:55:14.519 a Taliban influence there. We went in. We were linked 1061 00:55:14.559 --> 00:55:17.559 in with the local, the local the local leader. It 1062 00:55:17.719 --> 00:55:19.840 was actually we were actually based out the US based there. 1063 00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:23.280 There was the US space and in that US but 1064 00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:25.800 I can't remember the US unit was the U s 1065 00:55:25.880 --> 00:55:28.360 were there. There was also a unit of our Special 1066 00:55:28.400 --> 00:55:31.440 Boat Service so SBS our specially one of our special 1067 00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:35.400 forces units, and then a company of Paris went in there, 1068 00:55:35.639 --> 00:55:39.719 myself included. We went into a bit of patrolling around 1069 00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:43.599 the town. But the people were like they didn't have 1070 00:55:43.639 --> 00:55:46.400 a clue where we were there. They didn't understand what 1071 00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:48.960 was going on, you know. They hadn't just been a 1072 00:55:49.039 --> 00:55:51.880 war where we were going in to rescue them from 1073 00:55:52.159 --> 00:55:54.519 something being the enemy kind of. We just we weren't 1074 00:55:54.559 --> 00:55:56.039 there one day and then the next day we were. 1075 00:55:56.639 --> 00:56:00.599 From that perspective, I remember getting asked by the Turf 1076 00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:04.440 getting asked if we were Russians by a lad in 1077 00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:08.719 the town you know, we weren't greeting positively, we were 1078 00:56:08.800 --> 00:56:13.679 greeting negatively. For the first four or five weeks. That 1079 00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:16.480 was kind of what it was, just bedding in, getting 1080 00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:19.679 a field of things. And then after that, I think 1081 00:56:19.719 --> 00:56:22.039 once the Taliban got a handle on us and kind 1082 00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:24.000 of where we looked like we were going to be 1083 00:56:24.039 --> 00:56:30.559 settling into then they then they kicked off. And I 1084 00:56:30.599 --> 00:56:33.199 remember the first again, up to that point, it's the 1085 00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:35.679 other six two thousand and six. Now you know, we've 1086 00:56:35.719 --> 00:56:40.079 done Iraq to the Iraq invasion, then Iraq again, two 1087 00:56:40.199 --> 00:56:44.000 Power being out to Macedonia, one Power of Sierra Leo, 1088 00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:46.000 and all these things had happened, so I mean pockets 1089 00:56:46.039 --> 00:56:48.960 of little things going on. But even up to that point, 1090 00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:54.679 the thought of having a firefighter contact was like wow. 1091 00:56:55.639 --> 00:56:57.920 If you knew someone that being in the contact was 1092 00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:00.800 like wow, that guy got shot out and he shot 1093 00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:02.679 back like it was it was literally like it was 1094 00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:04.880 like a there was like a mythical beast, these people. 1095 00:57:05.079 --> 00:57:07.519 It was so rare at that point. And then I 1096 00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:10.559 remember the first the first contact happened. It was a 1097 00:57:10.599 --> 00:57:12.599 big battle that happened in an area cause now and 1098 00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:17.400 I can't remember I wasn't on that op on that mission, 1099 00:57:17.559 --> 00:57:19.920 but I remember the guys come back and it was 1100 00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:21.880 a company up and our snipers came back in off 1101 00:57:21.920 --> 00:57:26.679 that and they were just so happy. I mean they 1102 00:57:26.719 --> 00:57:30.920 were just sweat and dust and just they looked fucked. 1103 00:57:31.159 --> 00:57:34.360 They looked like wrecked, like they just done one hundred miles, 1104 00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:37.599 you know. And the reality was they just tasted their 1105 00:57:37.639 --> 00:57:40.639 first experience of you know, and hours long, hours long 1106 00:57:41.360 --> 00:57:48.440 battle in forty fifty degree heat in Afghanistan, in finding 1107 00:57:48.440 --> 00:57:50.599 an enemy that know exactly where all the rabbit runs 1108 00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:52.960 on hide and they don't weigh uniform. They look like 1109 00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:56.000 just like the locals. Yeah, all the tricks in the book. 1110 00:57:56.760 --> 00:57:59.880 And and that was the first one, and then after 1111 00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:03.320 it was just carried on, you know, they started everywhere, 1112 00:58:03.960 --> 00:58:06.559 the Taliban started hitting, hitting everywhere. Obviously the most famous 1113 00:58:06.599 --> 00:58:08.599 one is one of the most famous is the Sang 1114 00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:12.480 Sanging Manley Sanging district where the I think where we 1115 00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:16.719 eventually left years later and the US Marines came in 1116 00:58:18.159 --> 00:58:21.039 maybe eight I think I was ten Marines came in, 1117 00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:24.639 so you know, you guys have been there as well. 1118 00:58:25.239 --> 00:58:33.159 But it was the the tempo of contacts with the 1119 00:58:33.239 --> 00:58:36.199 enemy was like nothing I ever I ever expected, no 1120 00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:38.519 one expected. It was just through that. It was crazy. 1121 00:58:39.599 --> 00:58:40.159 It's crazy. 1122 00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:43.960 What was your unit's mission there? You know, you talk 1123 00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:46.000 about these contacts like, what was it you guys were 1124 00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:49.079 trying to accomplish versus you know what the Taliban's trying 1125 00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:49.960 to stop you from doing? 1126 00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:53.599 We were trying to you know, I got one of 1127 00:58:53.599 --> 00:58:55.320 the things I've realized over the last couple of years 1128 00:58:55.360 --> 00:58:58.679 of my own interviews. I mean, you'll know, you guys 1129 00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:01.039 think through things and you prob the things from ages 1130 00:59:01.559 --> 00:59:04.280 based on what someone else said. I think I should 1131 00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:06.400 be able to we should be able to remember these missions, 1132 00:59:06.440 --> 00:59:10.760 the batam and the realities. I don't that's a bit odd, 1133 00:59:11.079 --> 00:59:16.400 But in summary, it was to It was to gain 1134 00:59:16.519 --> 00:59:19.760 and hold ground and minimize influence in these key areas 1135 00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:24.760 so that we could so we could bolster the key leaders, 1136 00:59:24.840 --> 00:59:27.920 the local leaders basically both the local governments and in 1137 00:59:28.039 --> 00:59:32.800 areas where we wanted to do some reconstruction or improve education, 1138 00:59:33.280 --> 00:59:35.679 improve civil services and all that, then we could do 1139 00:59:35.800 --> 00:59:38.400 that down the line. That was our mission anyway, So 1140 00:59:38.480 --> 00:59:40.440 we ended up going to I think we had five 1141 00:59:40.519 --> 00:59:44.400 or six five or six locations sang in KSh now 1142 00:59:44.519 --> 00:59:51.719 is that a bunch of different places, and we we 1143 00:59:52.360 --> 00:59:55.280 bid off a bit more and we could chew. Really 1144 00:59:55.480 --> 00:59:58.679 we spread tooth in. I think, well, we know we 1145 00:59:58.719 --> 01:00:03.360 spread tooth in because what what what resulted, what ended 1146 01:00:03.400 --> 01:00:09.760 up happening was instead of being able to get into 1147 01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:13.440 a position, get into a compound. Most of the time 1148 01:00:13.480 --> 01:00:16.639 we would take over like civil buildings, like the civil center. 1149 01:00:17.119 --> 01:00:18.960 I said, takeover. We'd go in there with the police 1150 01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:22.559 is blessing, local local leaders, blessing, go in there, and 1151 01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:24.840 we would. The aim would be to saturate in the areas. 1152 01:00:25.320 --> 01:00:28.000 But when the Taliban started attacking back, we didn't have 1153 01:00:28.119 --> 01:00:30.239 the troops saturate in the area because we'd already taken 1154 01:00:30.280 --> 01:00:33.119 on too many places. We had too few troops dot 1155 01:00:33.159 --> 01:00:37.039 were around to do any kind of saturation. Now it 1156 01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:40.960 just became pure fighting just to survive, basically survive and 1157 01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:44.599 keep it, keep a handle on these areas, very limited 1158 01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:46.960 to get any supplies in or you know. I ended 1159 01:00:47.039 --> 01:00:50.320 up in a I ended up for two months in 1160 01:00:50.440 --> 01:00:53.599 a place called Maskala, and it's known as the Siege 1161 01:00:53.639 --> 01:00:57.039 of Mazkala. It's been a few things written and produced 1162 01:00:57.039 --> 01:01:00.840 about it, documentaries, And for two months, you couldn't get in, 1163 01:01:01.159 --> 01:01:03.400 and you couldn't get out, and you know, we we 1164 01:01:03.519 --> 01:01:07.239 were down to our last rounds of ammunition, we were 1165 01:01:07.280 --> 01:01:10.880 down to our last like our last supplies of food 1166 01:01:12.559 --> 01:01:15.440 and and by the time I got out of that place, 1167 01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:18.320 the rest of three Powers already back in the UK 1168 01:01:19.719 --> 01:01:22.599 because they couldn't the RAF wouldn't fly in because if 1169 01:01:22.639 --> 01:01:24.599 they tried to fly in, they get an airframe shot down. 1170 01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:28.519 It's just complete lockdown in that position. That's kind of 1171 01:01:28.519 --> 01:01:29.760 the worst of it. It was kind of the most 1172 01:01:29.800 --> 01:01:34.280 famous example of that. Yeah, it wasn't it was it 1173 01:01:34.440 --> 01:01:37.960 was it was. It was life changing, like the genuine 1174 01:01:38.039 --> 01:01:40.840 life changing, you know that that was the calla example. 1175 01:01:41.239 --> 01:01:45.000 I mean, we we get hit five, six, seven, eight 1176 01:01:45.079 --> 01:01:48.639 times a day, and sometimes it would be five or 1177 01:01:48.679 --> 01:01:52.960 ten minutes, a five or ten minute contact battle. Other 1178 01:01:53.039 --> 01:01:56.519 times it'd be our hour plus every day, all day, 1179 01:01:56.559 --> 01:01:59.880 every day. And and it was the same in Sang, 1180 01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:03.360 you know, in Sanging and Sang in DC, they're quite 1181 01:02:03.400 --> 01:02:05.960 uly there where they had the ability to get out 1182 01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:07.880 the gate. There was a bit of there was a 1183 01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:09.719 bit of dead not dead ground. There was like a 1184 01:02:09.760 --> 01:02:13.960 buffer zone of open area between the compound walls. So 1185 01:02:14.159 --> 01:02:17.119 to speak. And the green zone. Now, when I say 1186 01:02:17.159 --> 01:02:19.199 the green zone, I don't mean like iraquens. I mean 1187 01:02:19.239 --> 01:02:22.639 green zone is in green area where when we can hide, 1188 01:02:22.639 --> 01:02:25.000 because obviously the green zone is known by a lot 1189 01:02:25.039 --> 01:02:28.360 of people who like serving Iraq as safe area. Green 1190 01:02:28.400 --> 01:02:30.480 zone in Afghanistan to us means a totally different thing. 1191 01:02:30.559 --> 01:02:35.320 It means like foliage. It means river foliage, you know, 1192 01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:40.840 ditches and irrigation. And they sang and get out out 1193 01:02:40.880 --> 01:02:44.480 in patrol and go out and do fighting patrols and things. 1194 01:02:44.840 --> 01:02:47.079 But they would experience the same thing like every time 1195 01:02:47.119 --> 01:02:48.920 they go out, they get smashed. They probably get smashed 1196 01:02:49.039 --> 01:02:51.400 way out, they get smashed away back in, they get 1197 01:02:51.400 --> 01:02:55.159 smashed from the compound. And the casually rate for that 1198 01:02:55.440 --> 01:02:57.440 that tour across the battle group was like one in 1199 01:02:57.559 --> 01:03:03.840 ten was pretty pretty pretty high in a ten day 1200 01:03:04.159 --> 01:03:07.000 in a ten day period. In the first ten days 1201 01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:11.360 I was in masse Kaala, we took fifty five casualties 1202 01:03:11.480 --> 01:03:14.800 in that ten days. Now a big proportion of that 1203 01:03:14.920 --> 01:03:16.239 and there was only eight eight of us, but we 1204 01:03:16.400 --> 01:03:21.400 also had Afghan forces in there. There were maybe twenty 1205 01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:24.119 or thirty of those. So between them and as eighty 1206 01:03:24.199 --> 01:03:27.760 eight fifty odd fifty old casualties three down in ten days. 1207 01:03:27.840 --> 01:03:31.480 It's just carnage. Yeah, it was. It was pretty it 1208 01:03:31.559 --> 01:03:38.679 was pretty heavy, but there was nothing to tal about 1209 01:03:38.679 --> 01:03:42.039 out lockdown in that compound. They could they could literally 1210 01:03:42.079 --> 01:03:44.239 get to the walls like if you were to, if 1211 01:03:44.280 --> 01:03:46.679 you were to, if you're doing like a war bit 1212 01:03:46.719 --> 01:03:49.480 of war training, a bit of war gaming, and you 1213 01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:52.360 had a map of the town of ms Kaala and 1214 01:03:52.480 --> 01:03:55.159 you were asked to, hey, pick the spot on there 1215 01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:57.880 you which would be most difficult to defend. You picked 1216 01:03:57.920 --> 01:04:00.639 the district center because like impossible defender, that's exactly where 1217 01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:02.840 we were and we hadn't chosen it, like we hadn't 1218 01:04:02.920 --> 01:04:07.639 chosen it. So some months before the the Afghans have 1219 01:04:07.719 --> 01:04:11.119 been in there and one of our one of our 1220 01:04:11.400 --> 01:04:13.920 our path Finder Platoon unit, which is one of our Elite, 1221 01:04:14.159 --> 01:04:18.280 which is one of our early reconnaissance units called Pathfinders. 1222 01:04:19.119 --> 01:04:23.119 They were basically driving past one of a better expression 1223 01:04:23.159 --> 01:04:26.880 in the desert, high on the high ground, looking into Mysakala, 1224 01:04:27.199 --> 01:04:29.639 just doing some reconnaissance and at the time there was 1225 01:04:29.639 --> 01:04:31.639 a there's a contact on on the Afghans were getting 1226 01:04:31.679 --> 01:04:34.840 the Afghan police were getting hammered by by the Taliman 1227 01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:39.440 and they went into support. They were in support, got 1228 01:04:39.519 --> 01:04:42.119 in there into the compound and then couldn't get out 1229 01:04:42.519 --> 01:04:44.559 because of the delay of the land. You know, you 1230 01:04:44.639 --> 01:04:48.320 could you could walk a Taliman fighter could walk to 1231 01:04:48.440 --> 01:04:52.159 the wall and not be seen, you know, and you 1232 01:04:52.199 --> 01:04:54.039 can have a sentry up here, high up and not 1233 01:04:54.159 --> 01:04:56.840 be seen because it was just it was is the 1234 01:04:56.920 --> 01:05:00.760 center of a very very dense, very dense built up area. 1235 01:05:01.880 --> 01:05:05.039 They got in and then they struggled to get out, 1236 01:05:05.480 --> 01:05:08.159 and we put a battle group up in. So the 1237 01:05:08.199 --> 01:05:10.880 whole battle group did an operation just to create a 1238 01:05:10.960 --> 01:05:14.960 safe path through the town so we could take the 1239 01:05:15.079 --> 01:05:19.280 path finders out and replace them with a Danish unit, 1240 01:05:21.679 --> 01:05:24.960 which we did as on that as on that put 1241 01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:27.719 that that was just crazy as well. Taliban did not 1242 01:05:27.800 --> 01:05:31.760 want us to get in there. We put the Danish in. 1243 01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:36.639 Then the Danish got stuck and and they took a 1244 01:05:36.639 --> 01:05:39.280 lot of casualties, and they also had a sniper threat 1245 01:05:39.360 --> 01:05:43.760 at the time. There was a Taliban sniper who was 1246 01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:49.760 being pretty effective taking people out headshots within the within 1247 01:05:49.800 --> 01:05:50.400 the compounds. 1248 01:05:50.480 --> 01:05:54.920 So that Danish unit was that armadillo or am I 1249 01:05:55.039 --> 01:05:55.960 thinking of a different one. 1250 01:05:57.800 --> 01:06:00.360 Oh, it rings a bell. I'd have to check on that, though. 1251 01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:02.360 They did it. They did a documentary about it is 1252 01:06:02.599 --> 01:06:05.760 a Danish infantry platoon, did. 1253 01:06:05.719 --> 01:06:08.519 They maybe it was maybe laugh to check on that, 1254 01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:12.880 have to check on that, but yeah, I got asked 1255 01:06:12.920 --> 01:06:17.519 with going going in with a friend of mine who 1256 01:06:17.639 --> 01:06:21.800 was my sniper buddy, were working with my pair, going 1257 01:06:21.880 --> 01:06:24.760 in with a section which is eight eight with eight 1258 01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:29.400 infantry guys for parents, eight other parents and a major 1259 01:06:29.519 --> 01:06:31.519 and a sergeant major. And we were going to go 1260 01:06:31.639 --> 01:06:33.920 in because by this point there was a platoon of 1261 01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:36.800 Royal Irish Regiment in there, and wrote the Royal Irish Regiment. 1262 01:06:36.840 --> 01:06:39.199 They were part of our battle group. They were supporting 1263 01:06:39.280 --> 01:06:42.079 us like additional numbers and they were stuck in there. 1264 01:06:42.679 --> 01:06:45.559 So we were going into basically battlefield casually replacements and 1265 01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:48.880 they had no sniper capability either. So we went in there. 1266 01:06:49.639 --> 01:06:51.880 Danish ripped out. We went in and it was a 1267 01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:56.039 helicopter desk, one of the last helicopters that came in 1268 01:06:57.639 --> 01:07:01.519 dropped us off, and I remember it was it was nighttime. 1269 01:07:02.440 --> 01:07:04.360 Got shown this at the room were sitting in. We 1270 01:07:04.440 --> 01:07:06.800 were going to be sleeping in myself and Jared is 1271 01:07:06.840 --> 01:07:09.360 my oppose name we were sat next to the option 1272 01:07:09.440 --> 01:07:15.280 room and just a cacophony of noise just outside kicked off. 1273 01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:17.760 Knew it was a contact, but it was just it 1274 01:07:17.880 --> 01:07:19.840 was loud and it seemed like it was coming from everywhere. 1275 01:07:20.039 --> 01:07:22.079 You know, when you're in the building inside the room, 1276 01:07:22.119 --> 01:07:23.639 when you hear a contact on it, it sounds like 1277 01:07:23.679 --> 01:07:26.719 it's everywhere anyway because of the acoustics, and we went 1278 01:07:26.880 --> 01:07:29.159 grabbed the weapons, were running outside. We didn't have a 1279 01:07:29.239 --> 01:07:31.599 clue of the layout of the compound, didn't know anything. 1280 01:07:31.679 --> 01:07:35.519 We literally just landed and we went bolting outside and 1281 01:07:35.639 --> 01:07:39.639 it was literally all four sides of the place was 1282 01:07:39.760 --> 01:07:42.280 just erupting. Everyone's getting the talent. IAM were bumping all 1283 01:07:42.320 --> 01:07:44.800 four sites and it's a complex attack. It was you know, 1284 01:07:45.159 --> 01:07:49.039 multiple multiple flanks, multiple weapons systems. You had you know, 1285 01:07:49.159 --> 01:07:54.880 small arms who had rockets, who had Chinese rockets, and 1286 01:07:55.320 --> 01:07:57.920 RPG's going down and so we just grabbed the first 1287 01:07:57.920 --> 01:08:00.119 bit of high ground we could and just start and 1288 01:08:00.519 --> 01:08:03.159 started shooting and what we could. And it was wild 1289 01:08:03.599 --> 01:08:06.920 you had because you had the British in there, who 1290 01:08:07.039 --> 01:08:09.079 you know, we were pretty squared away as in professional 1291 01:08:09.159 --> 01:08:14.400 soldiers like Paris, but you also had the Afghan forces 1292 01:08:14.480 --> 01:08:16.920 in there, who were you know, they may think they 1293 01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:19.159 were a professional, but they were like crazy. There's one 1294 01:08:19.199 --> 01:08:21.640 guy who we learned this. You could easily spot him, this, 1295 01:08:21.920 --> 01:08:24.279 this policeman. You could easily spot him in a contact 1296 01:08:24.319 --> 01:08:28.720 at night because whichever the sanger he was in was 1297 01:08:28.880 --> 01:08:30.680 with the one where all the sparks were flying from. 1298 01:08:31.039 --> 01:08:32.720 Because the a K forty seven you had had a 1299 01:08:32.760 --> 01:08:35.920 bed barrel, so you would fire the you would fire 1300 01:08:35.920 --> 01:08:41.000 it anyway. Sparks everywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean 1301 01:08:41.039 --> 01:08:43.239 why not you can't couldn't get a replacement in there. Yeah, 1302 01:08:43.720 --> 01:08:46.359 but you know that that uh that yeah, that first 1303 01:08:46.439 --> 01:08:48.479 night was just that shit. And that's how it went 1304 01:08:48.520 --> 01:08:51.920 on for the entire thing, like a proper batter's from 1305 01:08:51.920 --> 01:08:54.199 the fire. And the thing is with that is we've 1306 01:08:54.279 --> 01:08:56.279 been in I've been in loads of stuff up to 1307 01:08:56.319 --> 01:08:59.079 that point. That tour that was like I went into 1308 01:08:59.159 --> 01:09:02.279 was the car in augant. I'd landed in Afghan in March, 1309 01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:05.479 so I was pretty seasoned by that point in terms of, 1310 01:09:06.600 --> 01:09:09.399 you know, facing the enemy, and that was just took 1311 01:09:09.439 --> 01:09:12.159 it up a whole a whole other level. And it's 1312 01:09:12.239 --> 01:09:16.600 it's also a different ballgame when you were really restricted 1313 01:09:16.720 --> 01:09:19.479 what you can do tactically. We didn't have the manpower 1314 01:09:19.520 --> 01:09:21.720 to even get out the gate, because if we've tried 1315 01:09:21.760 --> 01:09:23.800 to get out the gate, we'd only have maybe a 1316 01:09:23.880 --> 01:09:26.279 section or sort of get out unless we took everyone 1317 01:09:27.039 --> 01:09:30.319 from the from the from the compounds out, and that 1318 01:09:30.439 --> 01:09:32.279 means we'd be giving the compounds up to the Taliban. 1319 01:09:32.319 --> 01:09:33.880 We weren't. That wasn't my mission. We had to hold it. 1320 01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:35.680 They couldn't go out of the gate. It was literally 1321 01:09:35.760 --> 01:09:38.159 just defend. That's all we could do. And because they 1322 01:09:38.199 --> 01:09:40.760 could get to the walls, you know, you one day 1323 01:09:40.760 --> 01:09:42.600 you'd be getting a small out attack from a couple 1324 01:09:42.640 --> 01:09:44.640 of flanks, now that they'd be getting grenades torunover of 1325 01:09:44.640 --> 01:09:47.319 the wall from the mosque, which was just to buy 1326 01:09:47.359 --> 01:09:50.279 the rub bub. At this point, it was pretty it 1327 01:09:50.359 --> 01:09:52.359 was pretty frantic. It wasn't a nice position to be in. 1328 01:09:54.079 --> 01:09:57.159 It's different dealing with stuff like that when you've got 1329 01:09:57.239 --> 01:10:03.439 lots of tap options at your disposal, when you are 1330 01:10:03.479 --> 01:10:05.239 pretty much at the behest of what the enemy wants 1331 01:10:05.239 --> 01:10:08.800 to do that day. Is pushing a different mindset, completely 1332 01:10:08.800 --> 01:10:10.479 different mindset. And also we didn't know when we were 1333 01:10:10.560 --> 01:10:12.880 leave it. There was no you know, there was no 1334 01:10:13.600 --> 01:10:16.359 there's no indication of when we were leave it whatsoever. 1335 01:10:17.359 --> 01:10:19.560 And I don't know if you know anything about that siege. 1336 01:10:19.600 --> 01:10:26.399 But what ended up happening was our a combination of 1337 01:10:26.479 --> 01:10:29.720 negotiations with our officer in command. There a guy called 1338 01:10:29.760 --> 01:10:34.119 Adam Jowett, Major Adam Jowet. At the time, he was 1339 01:10:34.760 --> 01:10:38.439 discussing with a local leader who started coming in on 1340 01:10:38.520 --> 01:10:42.520 behalf of the Taliman to try and sort of bring 1341 01:10:42.600 --> 01:10:45.239 an into the carnage because the town was just getting trashed. 1342 01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:47.199 There was no civilians there at this point. It was 1343 01:10:47.279 --> 01:10:49.520 just it was just Taliman. Apart from what there was 1344 01:10:49.600 --> 01:10:54.319 one civilian guy, and he was an old dude, mad 1345 01:10:54.439 --> 01:10:56.880 as a box of frogs, walk a stick, blind as 1346 01:10:56.920 --> 01:10:59.760 a bat, and he would he was living outside the town, 1347 01:11:00.000 --> 01:11:01.800 still live inside of the town at some point, but 1348 01:11:01.960 --> 01:11:04.199 every day he would walk in feeling his way up 1349 01:11:04.239 --> 01:11:07.520 a wall, regardless of what was going on, what firefights, 1350 01:11:07.520 --> 01:11:09.680 but anything was going on. If feelers were at the wall, 1351 01:11:09.920 --> 01:11:11.680 you get to it. At the shop, do whatever you 1352 01:11:11.720 --> 01:11:13.159 need to do in the shop. He wasn't selling to 1353 01:11:13.199 --> 01:11:14.960 anyone because there was no one to buy anything. What 1354 01:11:15.039 --> 01:11:17.520 everyone's doing the shop maybe getting supplies whatever, and then 1355 01:11:17.520 --> 01:11:20.640 he would like man hand himself back out blinders about 1356 01:11:20.640 --> 01:11:22.239 every day and he was the only cingling that would 1357 01:11:22.239 --> 01:11:27.720 come in. What happened is the Adam and then outside 1358 01:11:27.760 --> 01:11:33.600 of that, the back in Bastion, there was more senior 1359 01:11:33.640 --> 01:11:37.600 conversations going on with senior senior Taliban and senior parts 1360 01:11:37.600 --> 01:11:40.479 of the British military to negotiate a ceasefire. And the 1361 01:11:40.560 --> 01:11:46.960 ceasefire happened, and the Taliban organized local transport for us, 1362 01:11:47.319 --> 01:11:51.239 so you know, local Jingly trucks, cattle trucks, Afghan cattle 1363 01:11:51.279 --> 01:11:54.479 trucks completely afgand drivers. And one morning a bunch of 1364 01:11:54.520 --> 01:11:59.239 trucks turned up that's don't don't and just before dawn 1365 01:11:59.439 --> 01:12:02.960 and we jumped onto those trucks and the Taliban extracted 1366 01:12:03.039 --> 01:12:06.159 us into the desert where a bunch of Cheriks were 1367 01:12:06.159 --> 01:12:09.680 waiting for us. She's nice of them. It's just so 1368 01:12:10.119 --> 01:12:13.680 so surreal. Yeah, at the time, didn't anything, but you 1369 01:12:13.760 --> 01:12:18.079 know too, you you you the stories of oh yeah, 1370 01:12:18.159 --> 01:12:21.159 the you know, the the enemy allowed us to leave 1371 01:12:21.199 --> 01:12:24.279 and save us. They did sort of kind of got 1372 01:12:24.359 --> 01:12:26.640 us out. They like Second World War stuff or Korea 1373 01:12:27.079 --> 01:12:30.439 or somewhere else. It's not two thousand and six Afghanistan, Like, 1374 01:12:31.840 --> 01:12:34.399 that's what happened. And when we were actually when we 1375 01:12:34.479 --> 01:12:39.199 came back, when we came back in, we were told 1376 01:12:39.439 --> 01:12:41.600 so we finally got the CAMBASTIONI we were we were 1377 01:12:41.640 --> 01:12:45.079 brought together and told you won't this didn't happen. You 1378 01:12:45.119 --> 01:12:48.359 want to talk about this? Yeah, yeah, And we didn't, 1379 01:12:48.560 --> 01:12:50.520 you know, even even even a lot of guys in 1380 01:12:50.640 --> 01:12:55.079 three paras didn't know about it until much later. And 1381 01:12:55.199 --> 01:12:56.720 the first I saw that it would be sort of 1382 01:12:56.800 --> 01:12:59.000 become public was on Wikipedia nine. 1383 01:13:02.119 --> 01:13:08.039 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting. 1384 01:13:08.640 --> 01:13:13.600 It's to me, it led it lends to the frustration 1385 01:13:14.279 --> 01:13:20.079 of a lot of JA veterans in terms of especially Afghanistan. 1386 01:13:20.199 --> 01:13:22.520 I mean it happened in Iraq, but especially in Afghanistan. 1387 01:13:23.039 --> 01:13:27.119 They put a few guys out on these tiny little 1388 01:13:27.239 --> 01:13:31.039 cops or these little you know, positions that couldn't really 1389 01:13:31.079 --> 01:13:31.479 be held. 1390 01:13:32.279 --> 01:13:37.479 And really what these positions did, what they did is they. 1391 01:13:37.479 --> 01:13:39.920 Served to draw the enemy to them. You know, it's 1392 01:13:39.920 --> 01:13:42.119 always like we need to deny the enemy this area, 1393 01:13:42.439 --> 01:13:44.920 but you're not with you know, you're not twenty guys. 1394 01:13:44.960 --> 01:13:48.760 You're not denying anything to anybody. And and they would leave, 1395 01:13:49.600 --> 01:13:54.079 you know, Allied troops in these positions, these untenable positions, 1396 01:13:54.920 --> 01:13:56.720 and leadership didn't do anything with that. 1397 01:13:58.359 --> 01:14:00.880 Yeah, I think it was Yeah, Yeah, I agree, and 1398 01:14:01.039 --> 01:14:03.000 I think that I think the cause of it in 1399 01:14:03.039 --> 01:14:06.640 those six was we just underestimated how much effort the 1400 01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:09.520 Taliban would put in annoyed would be as being there, 1401 01:14:10.439 --> 01:14:15.720 you know. And I mean I'd like to ask Tootles, 1402 01:14:15.760 --> 01:14:18.359 so that the colonel of three Powers, a guy called 1403 01:14:18.479 --> 01:14:21.760 Stuart Tootle, and he's quite well known over you as 1404 01:14:21.800 --> 01:14:28.119 a military expert, tactician, very well respected by us. You know, 1405 01:14:28.199 --> 01:14:30.920 he he led as well that he was. He was 1406 01:14:30.960 --> 01:14:35.239 a perfect CEO at the time, and but I'd like 1407 01:14:35.319 --> 01:14:38.039 to ask him, you know what, like why do we 1408 01:14:39.159 --> 01:14:41.319 go in all those positions? I can't imagine it was 1409 01:14:41.399 --> 01:14:44.159 his decision. I'd like to think it wasn't his decision, 1410 01:14:44.640 --> 01:14:45.880 you know. I think you'd like to think it was 1411 01:14:45.960 --> 01:14:50.359 higher up. But I think if we consolidate, if your point, naw, Dave, 1412 01:14:50.439 --> 01:14:53.920 if we consolidated on a few, like half the number 1413 01:14:53.920 --> 01:14:57.319 of positions, you know, that's six months. But then I 1414 01:14:57.359 --> 01:14:59.239 don't know, it could have been could have been time pressure, 1415 01:14:59.279 --> 01:15:00.640 could have been just get they do as much as 1416 01:15:00.840 --> 01:15:02.039 much as we can, as quick as we can, and 1417 01:15:02.079 --> 01:15:03.840 we'll deal with it. And it just didn't go on 1418 01:15:03.880 --> 01:15:06.079 like that because that really set the tempope for the 1419 01:15:06.119 --> 01:15:06.880 rest of the operation. 1420 01:15:07.159 --> 01:15:10.000 Because it also sounds like the expectations when you guys 1421 01:15:10.039 --> 01:15:12.159 first went in there was that this wasn't going to 1422 01:15:12.199 --> 01:15:14.840 be what it became right, that you weren't going to 1423 01:15:14.880 --> 01:15:16.039 have that level of resistance. 1424 01:15:16.279 --> 01:15:18.520 And the thing is is that The thing is is 1425 01:15:18.600 --> 01:15:22.960 that the other interesting thing is is that people people 1426 01:15:23.079 --> 01:15:26.439 didn't believe us when we came back. When we described it. 1427 01:15:26.479 --> 01:15:29.359 It was like, which was really frustrating. 1428 01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:35.119 Yeah, so they Yeah, they didn't believe because the story 1429 01:15:35.159 --> 01:15:37.119 at the time was that the war's going well and 1430 01:15:37.199 --> 01:15:38.520 you're telling something different. 1431 01:15:41.920 --> 01:15:46.119 No, no, it was because we're gone again. We've gone 1432 01:15:46.199 --> 01:15:50.760 from a military which very little experience or chance of 1433 01:15:50.920 --> 01:15:53.720 having a contact with the enemy to all of a sudden, 1434 01:15:54.279 --> 01:15:57.880 you've got this unit coming back and going, hey, guys, 1435 01:15:58.359 --> 01:16:00.920 you need to get seriously training, to get your medics 1436 01:16:00.960 --> 01:16:03.680 trained up. This is not it's not child's play anymore. 1437 01:16:04.279 --> 01:16:05.840 Because one of the things that happens in that there's 1438 01:16:05.920 --> 01:16:08.119 low operation temples as well as you kind of pay 1439 01:16:08.239 --> 01:16:11.600 lip service to the training. If you're doing all the 1440 01:16:11.680 --> 01:16:14.399 training you're giving, especially on the medical fund, you do 1441 01:16:14.520 --> 01:16:16.880 the basics, you do what you're supposed to do, but 1442 01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:20.359 it's no like emotional investment in it and all the 1443 01:16:20.520 --> 01:16:25.159 lessons you learn from the previous carnage operation mission you know, 1444 01:16:25.479 --> 01:16:28.560 War Falklands in our case, or Gulf One. You know, 1445 01:16:29.079 --> 01:16:32.600 they'd not carry forward when the operations aren't temper wasn't high. 1446 01:16:33.239 --> 01:16:37.079 So we had come back and thought, shit, yeah, we 1447 01:16:37.199 --> 01:16:39.319 need to pay like we need to up our game 1448 01:16:39.399 --> 01:16:42.359 with medical training for example, first day training. We are 1449 01:16:42.520 --> 01:16:47.800 upper game with other things, basic things, and and we 1450 01:16:47.920 --> 01:16:50.560 were trying to So we came back, we got we 1451 01:16:50.680 --> 01:16:53.119 got asked, some of us got asked to go and 1452 01:16:53.600 --> 01:16:56.239 be part of the pre deployment training for the what 1453 01:16:56.279 --> 01:16:58.279 would be the third unit going out there, because obviously 1454 01:16:58.560 --> 01:17:00.359 we left the unit already can be, which is the 1455 01:17:00.399 --> 01:17:03.399 Marines or battle group. You guys to go on advising 1456 01:17:03.479 --> 01:17:07.000 these things. And and I went on as I did 1457 01:17:07.119 --> 01:17:09.640 two stints on that two different places. I went and 1458 01:17:09.720 --> 01:17:13.000 trained and was part of training for a company, an 1459 01:17:13.039 --> 01:17:16.319 infantry company from a different unit, a different regiment. And 1460 01:17:16.399 --> 01:17:22.159 I also went down to the a sniper training unit 1461 01:17:23.840 --> 01:17:28.439 elsewhere the sniper training unit. They wouldn't they wouldn't believe 1462 01:17:28.479 --> 01:17:30.920 what our webs what the weapon system was capable of 1463 01:17:31.319 --> 01:17:33.399 is an album they three which is three three eight, 1464 01:17:33.520 --> 01:17:36.000 like a. I think we were telling them it's capable 1465 01:17:36.039 --> 01:17:37.640 of much more. What the pamphlet tells you. By the 1466 01:17:37.680 --> 01:17:40.560 way I can go further differences is you know, it's fine, 1467 01:17:40.960 --> 01:17:45.239 but the the company, infantry company was much more more frustrating. 1468 01:17:45.920 --> 01:17:49.560 You know, we were told literally told when by the 1469 01:17:49.600 --> 01:17:52.000 permanent staff are doing instruckt and like, don't scare them, 1470 01:17:52.520 --> 01:17:57.560 don't don't because the other thing is it's these are 1471 01:17:57.600 --> 01:17:59.880 different kinds of units. There's an advantage for having us 1472 01:17:59.880 --> 01:18:04.000 action process. Yeah, right, Anyone who arguments different argue argues different. 1473 01:18:04.000 --> 01:18:06.560 He's talking about non and they do argue differently. The 1474 01:18:06.680 --> 01:18:09.000 units who don't have a selection process don't want to bleed. 1475 01:18:09.079 --> 01:18:11.880 Having a selection process is better. The reality is having 1476 01:18:11.880 --> 01:18:14.720 a selection process means you end up with on average, 1477 01:18:14.880 --> 01:18:18.439 more resilient, more capable people than than the unit that doesn't. 1478 01:18:18.479 --> 01:18:19.880 Obviously his exceptions to that rule. 1479 01:18:20.479 --> 01:18:22.960 Here comes huge straight out of Afghanistan, with a wild 1480 01:18:23.039 --> 01:18:23.800 look in his eyes. 1481 01:18:25.119 --> 01:18:30.600 Yeah yeah, but yeah, no, yea, yeah, and there wasn't. 1482 01:18:30.640 --> 01:18:34.640 There was definitely. It was definitely a worry that people 1483 01:18:34.800 --> 01:18:36.399 go out there with the wrong attitude. You don't want 1484 01:18:36.399 --> 01:18:38.199 to be going out into a mission like that, sure 1485 01:18:38.239 --> 01:18:40.800 and being worried about losing your life. You want to 1486 01:18:40.800 --> 01:18:42.479 be going out on a on a mission like that 1487 01:18:42.560 --> 01:18:44.720 and thinking, I'm as capable as it can be and 1488 01:18:44.920 --> 01:18:46.920 exactly what needs to be done. There's no more training 1489 01:18:46.920 --> 01:18:48.920 I could do to prepare me for this. I trust 1490 01:18:48.960 --> 01:18:50.479 the people around me, and I trust the unit. A 1491 01:18:50.520 --> 01:18:53.319 part of so you went enemy were softly softly build 1492 01:18:53.319 --> 01:18:56.680 the discuminants. Yeah, exactly. It was softly softly and it 1493 01:18:56.800 --> 01:18:59.319 was It was over a couple of weeks, this particular 1494 01:18:59.399 --> 01:19:01.479 part we were on with them, and it was coming 1495 01:19:01.479 --> 01:19:03.880 towards the end of the beat of training, and they 1496 01:19:03.920 --> 01:19:08.760 were just doing really basic things wrong. Like the officers 1497 01:19:09.279 --> 01:19:12.720 would there'd be a battle going on, and this is training, 1498 01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:15.640 be a battle going on, and the officers would they'd 1499 01:19:15.680 --> 01:19:18.039 want to consult the map and they get behind like 1500 01:19:18.640 --> 01:19:22.039 a land Rovere, a soft skin vehicle to consult the map. 1501 01:19:22.600 --> 01:19:25.199 Because for twenty years they could do that in training 1502 01:19:25.199 --> 01:19:27.039 and hide behind a soft skin vehicle as if that's 1503 01:19:27.079 --> 01:19:29.239 going to stop around. They look at the map and 1504 01:19:29.319 --> 01:19:31.119 we come over and go, guys, you can't you know, 1505 01:19:31.199 --> 01:19:33.800 if you do this out there, you're literally gonna you're dead. 1506 01:19:33.840 --> 01:19:36.399 It's not gonna stop stop it, and went on and 1507 01:19:36.640 --> 01:19:38.600 no one was listening. And they got to the they 1508 01:19:38.720 --> 01:19:43.600 got to the last day and and stood up with 1509 01:19:43.840 --> 01:19:47.000 the British expressions. We ripped a new asshole into them 1510 01:19:47.479 --> 01:19:49.960 and just told them, you guys need to start switching on. 1511 01:19:50.000 --> 01:19:51.600 You're not paying any attention. You're not listening to what 1512 01:19:51.640 --> 01:19:53.680 we're saying. Part of the problem was as well, is 1513 01:19:53.760 --> 01:19:57.640 that the powers, the Powers in the UK, we're not 1514 01:19:57.760 --> 01:20:01.880 that popular amongst other units for a bunch for a 1515 01:20:01.960 --> 01:20:06.800 bunch of different reasons, right, and it's unfounded reasons. 1516 01:20:06.560 --> 01:20:13.239 Mainly Airborne unit being cocky. I don't believe that pretty. 1517 01:20:13.560 --> 01:20:15.239 You know, like I said, we've got these names for 1518 01:20:15.319 --> 01:20:19.600 the unit. Well, and there was definitely a part of 1519 01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:21.960 it in people not believing this and that they thought 1520 01:20:21.960 --> 01:20:24.119 we were sort of inflating it, build it up like 1521 01:20:24.159 --> 01:20:26.640 yeah with great, yes, we need to make these stories out. No, no, 1522 01:20:26.840 --> 01:20:29.119 this is really what happened. You're really going to go 1523 01:20:29.199 --> 01:20:31.279 out there and as soon as you go on the ground, 1524 01:20:31.279 --> 01:20:33.479 you're going to get shut up. And if your drills 1525 01:20:33.520 --> 01:20:36.479 and skills aren't good enough as a team, as a unit, 1526 01:20:36.600 --> 01:20:39.119 or as an individual, you're probably going to get injured 1527 01:20:39.479 --> 01:20:41.960 or get someone injured or killed. It's going to happen. 1528 01:20:44.079 --> 01:20:46.880 It took, you know, it took a couple of couple 1529 01:20:46.920 --> 01:20:52.039 of couple of tours for everyone to realize, Hey, it 1530 01:20:52.199 --> 01:20:55.000 is actually like they said it was. It's it's it 1531 01:20:55.119 --> 01:20:56.039 is that crazy. 1532 01:21:00.520 --> 01:21:04.279 So, I mean, this is interesting because you know, you're 1533 01:21:04.319 --> 01:21:06.920 going from you know, being that sort of like HACKI 1534 01:21:07.039 --> 01:21:10.680 young paratrooper to growing into being a professional soldier and 1535 01:21:10.760 --> 01:21:13.199 like passing these skills on to the younger guys that 1536 01:21:13.319 --> 01:21:15.760 need this stuff when they get overseas, which I think 1537 01:21:15.880 --> 01:21:18.039 is like a very interesting progression to make. 1538 01:21:20.399 --> 01:21:25.239 Yeah, yeah, I think yeah. I found that actually quite 1539 01:21:26.239 --> 01:21:28.239 the command side of it, I found I was finding 1540 01:21:28.279 --> 01:21:31.000 a little bit difficult. Not in terms of tactics on 1541 01:21:31.279 --> 01:21:36.279 the operations so to speak. No, I was not bad, 1542 01:21:38.000 --> 01:21:40.720 like modest, modesty, kicking in. I wasn't bad, you know, 1543 01:21:40.760 --> 01:21:45.439 on the ground, not bad at all. But the reality 1544 01:21:45.520 --> 01:21:48.960 for me in terms of career, my my career progression 1545 01:21:49.079 --> 01:21:54.119 promotion to being a rapid, crazy rapid normally to be 1546 01:21:54.600 --> 01:21:56.960 to become a section commander, you know, running the running 1547 01:21:56.960 --> 01:22:01.600 the team of eight, you looking at eight years maybe 1548 01:22:02.199 --> 01:22:04.039 average of about eight years to get to that position 1549 01:22:04.119 --> 01:22:06.760 at that point, I did it within three or four 1550 01:22:07.000 --> 01:22:08.840 and not I say I did it. Wasn't aiming for it. 1551 01:22:08.960 --> 01:22:11.600 I just ended up as a you know, running run 1552 01:22:11.680 --> 01:22:13.279 of my own when see me at that point. And 1553 01:22:13.319 --> 01:22:15.800 then I became a sergeant within eight and a sergeant 1554 01:22:15.880 --> 01:22:18.560 normally like eleven twelve years, and it was it was 1555 01:22:18.640 --> 01:22:22.560 too quick, you know, I was. I cut my teeth 1556 01:22:23.039 --> 01:22:28.239 in terms of combat, if you like. But I still 1557 01:22:28.760 --> 01:22:32.319 I still was dealing with that sort of confidence issue, 1558 01:22:32.680 --> 01:22:36.399 I believe it or not, in terms of handling guys, 1559 01:22:36.520 --> 01:22:39.000 commanding guys. And it was almost to do with like 1560 01:22:39.119 --> 01:22:42.159 a status thing, social status thing. One of the one 1561 01:22:42.199 --> 01:22:45.119 of the things that happened. I don't know what happens 1562 01:22:45.239 --> 01:22:48.479 you're side of the pond, but when I first joined 1563 01:22:48.560 --> 01:22:52.680 three PARA, if you got promoted, then you would move 1564 01:22:52.800 --> 01:22:55.039 units sub units. So if you if you got promoted, 1565 01:22:55.079 --> 01:22:57.600 you'd move from at least move platoons. You go from 1566 01:22:58.239 --> 01:23:01.640 this platoon to that platoon. You're supposed to go from 1567 01:23:01.640 --> 01:23:04.239 company to companies. You go from a company strength ross 1568 01:23:04.239 --> 01:23:06.880 like one hundred and forty, you'd move companies. And the 1569 01:23:06.960 --> 01:23:08.560 reason being is is that you're not all of a 1570 01:23:08.640 --> 01:23:11.800 sudden being put into a leadership position within your peer 1571 01:23:11.880 --> 01:23:14.479 group because group stilly peer group, a stilly friends, the 1572 01:23:14.520 --> 01:23:15.119 stilly fuck. 1573 01:23:15.119 --> 01:23:18.239 They will do that in like in ranger regiment for instance. 1574 01:23:18.439 --> 01:23:20.800 That's more when you get to the platoon sergeant level, 1575 01:23:21.399 --> 01:23:23.359 a lot of the squad leaders are kind of home 1576 01:23:23.439 --> 01:23:25.920 grown in the element, but when you get to the 1577 01:23:26.239 --> 01:23:29.840 command has some concerns when like all three or four 1578 01:23:29.840 --> 01:23:32.359 of the platoon sergeants and the company are boys that 1579 01:23:32.560 --> 01:23:34.960 like grew up together, that you're creating like you're creating 1580 01:23:35.000 --> 01:23:35.640 a little mafia. 1581 01:23:35.720 --> 01:23:40.239 Yeah yeah, yeah, that's how you know, the killer squads 1582 01:23:40.279 --> 01:23:40.760 come together. 1583 01:23:41.439 --> 01:23:43.720 Yeah yeah so they yeah, at that point they start 1584 01:23:43.760 --> 01:23:45.199 to guys get moved around a little bit. 1585 01:23:46.199 --> 01:23:50.039 Yeah so yeah. So when I got my first promotion, 1586 01:23:50.119 --> 01:23:52.239 I ended up staying staying in the same They didn't 1587 01:23:52.239 --> 01:23:54.279 they didn't move me. I can't remember why. I just 1588 01:23:54.479 --> 01:23:57.119 might not like I have like social circle with a 1589 01:23:57.159 --> 01:23:59.640 group of people who's just like alphas. I was not 1590 01:23:59.720 --> 01:24:01.640 an al at that point. It wasn't that, well, who 1591 01:24:01.800 --> 01:24:06.239 is at any point really and I found it really hard, 1592 01:24:06.279 --> 01:24:11.920 but oh six changed it. I think thinking about it, 1593 01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:13.840 Oh six changed it. You know, I got a real 1594 01:24:13.920 --> 01:24:16.119 belief in myself there. You can say, there's not much, 1595 01:24:16.479 --> 01:24:18.239 there's not much else can give you a bigger, bigger 1596 01:24:18.279 --> 01:24:22.720 confidence boosters going out doing something tasty, even if one off. 1597 01:24:22.880 --> 01:24:24.880 If the people out there, I've only ever done one 1598 01:24:25.840 --> 01:24:28.560 one bit of combat they've been in, but the being 1599 01:24:28.760 --> 01:24:30.840 they've done it as if they did well with the team, 1600 01:24:30.880 --> 01:24:32.840 they've respected, they got through the chief the mission that 1601 01:24:33.039 --> 01:24:35.279 is like that is literally can be life changing. That 1602 01:24:35.600 --> 01:24:38.199 that oh sixth though, is basically what the t meet 1603 01:24:38.319 --> 01:24:41.560 I am now just you know, outgoing sell a confident guy. 1604 01:24:41.880 --> 01:24:49.000 I was totally different before and I managed over time 1605 01:24:49.119 --> 01:24:51.760 to pull that into and and help me with the 1606 01:24:51.840 --> 01:24:56.760 command element, just confidence command. You know, it wasn't it 1607 01:24:56.920 --> 01:24:59.600 was not that I was week a week commander, but 1608 01:24:59.720 --> 01:25:02.159 I it was almost like a poster syndrome. You know, 1609 01:25:02.359 --> 01:25:04.760 it's just like so quick I just gone through the 1610 01:25:04.840 --> 01:25:07.439 rank so quick. I was sitting around, you know, I 1611 01:25:07.560 --> 01:25:10.079 was the equivalent ranked to people I was again looking 1612 01:25:10.159 --> 01:25:12.119 up to when I was in training in some cases 1613 01:25:12.159 --> 01:25:14.159 I was the same rank as people who would take 1614 01:25:14.239 --> 01:25:14.800 me through training. 1615 01:25:14.840 --> 01:25:19.720 In some cases, what was the next step for you? 1616 01:25:19.960 --> 01:25:22.239 I mean, now it sounds like your section commander, like 1617 01:25:22.680 --> 01:25:27.000 sounds like our version of a squad leader. Uh what 1618 01:25:27.239 --> 01:25:29.399 what what was the next jump for you? I mean 1619 01:25:29.439 --> 01:25:31.680 I think you did one more trip over to Afghanistan? 1620 01:25:31.800 --> 01:25:35.840 Right? What did you want to did you? Yeah? Yeah? 1621 01:25:36.079 --> 01:25:38.880 So so I went to snipe is no for six? 1622 01:25:39.000 --> 01:25:40.720 I was a I was a a full screw what 1623 01:25:40.800 --> 01:25:42.920 we call a corporal see a second commander, squad leader, 1624 01:25:43.640 --> 01:25:45.840 but within the snipe, within the snipers, so a sniper 1625 01:25:45.920 --> 01:25:53.279 team commander. And and then uh eight was the next 1626 01:25:53.319 --> 01:25:58.239 hour Afghanistan? Two and seven that year between was a 1627 01:25:58.319 --> 01:26:02.000 combination of guest instructors and a snipe of course down 1628 01:26:02.159 --> 01:26:07.239 in down again in southern England near London, and advising 1629 01:26:07.319 --> 01:26:11.600 on pre deployment stuff for other people. Uh and then 1630 01:26:11.840 --> 01:26:13.800 two that a night the start of that the start 1631 01:26:13.840 --> 01:26:17.399 of that year was a leadership course for me, which 1632 01:26:17.560 --> 01:26:22.279 was do my course for quality myself to get promoted 1633 01:26:22.319 --> 01:26:26.039 to sergeant. So that would be from a sniper's perspective, 1634 01:26:26.119 --> 01:26:30.880 that would qualify me to lead, the lead, the lead, 1635 01:26:30.920 --> 01:26:37.159 the be the sniper commander. Basically I did that. I 1636 01:26:37.279 --> 01:26:40.000 did that and that earlier and earlier in the year, 1637 01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:42.439 and then deployed out Afghan. Now, the second Afghan tour 1638 01:26:42.520 --> 01:26:44.880 for me was very much different than first. It was 1639 01:26:44.920 --> 01:26:46.560 quite good, the whole the whole of three I said, 1640 01:26:47.000 --> 01:26:48.640 what was quite good, the whole of three part. We 1641 01:26:48.760 --> 01:26:52.359 deployed out to Canada heart at that point and that 1642 01:26:52.479 --> 01:26:54.399 was a bit of a culture shock. That's the first 1643 01:26:54.439 --> 01:26:58.159 time I'd ever been on a big accoump with us 1644 01:26:58.239 --> 01:27:02.159 A Canadians, like one of these huge camps like the 1645 01:27:02.359 --> 01:27:04.479 Canadians hockey. You guys must have been that. 1646 01:27:04.640 --> 01:27:07.520 Oh yeah, the boardwalk with the Tim Whartons. 1647 01:27:07.039 --> 01:27:09.600 And Yoard or you know, I just come off. My 1648 01:27:09.720 --> 01:27:13.439 first experience of Afghan was six right, you know what 1649 01:27:13.520 --> 01:27:15.279 the bricks are like, we're pretty tight with our money, 1650 01:27:15.640 --> 01:27:18.239 Like we're pretty frugal. There's nothing, there's no it's none 1651 01:27:18.239 --> 01:27:22.279 of this coffee shop. It's literally like stepping into a 1652 01:27:23.319 --> 01:27:26.039 what do you guys call it a mall? It's like 1653 01:27:26.119 --> 01:27:30.479 a center bar and yeah, crazy crazy, So you went there. 1654 01:27:30.560 --> 01:27:32.960 But the the ops we were doing, we were doing 1655 01:27:33.000 --> 01:27:37.399 strike ups, so strike ups for High Valley targets in 1656 01:27:37.560 --> 01:27:40.840 southern Afghanistan mainly, so you would spend two or three 1657 01:27:40.920 --> 01:27:45.119 days in camp. What was the name of the camp 1658 01:27:45.239 --> 01:27:50.319 camp not Camp Suitor com It was called uh in camp. 1659 01:27:50.880 --> 01:27:53.399 Then the mission would come up and either a company 1660 01:27:53.439 --> 01:27:55.079 of US would go out on the mission. And the 1661 01:27:55.159 --> 01:27:57.880 mission could be the whole unit, but there's rare the 1662 01:27:57.960 --> 01:28:01.680 whole The mission could be like a day out snatch 1663 01:28:01.720 --> 01:28:04.439 and grab, like out out of the Allies, drop in 1664 01:28:04.520 --> 01:28:08.279 to dropping to just outside the village, running grab the target, 1665 01:28:08.560 --> 01:28:10.399 getting out, and it was it was never it was 1666 01:28:10.439 --> 01:28:13.600 always capture like mainly capture and capture. A kill was 1667 01:28:13.640 --> 01:28:15.520 quite rare. But then we'll be in, get them and 1668 01:28:15.600 --> 01:28:18.680 get out and or sometimes the mission would be two 1669 01:28:18.760 --> 01:28:20.479 or three weeks. It would go and be to support 1670 01:28:20.800 --> 01:28:24.800 a US unit like a background area or or a 1671 01:28:24.840 --> 01:28:27.199 British unit elsewhere, or to put a faint in for 1672 01:28:27.560 --> 01:28:29.880 an s F attack going in somewhere. You know. So 1673 01:28:29.960 --> 01:28:32.359 we did that for the six months there and that 1674 01:28:32.520 --> 01:28:34.560 was that was really really good. You know, we had 1675 01:28:34.600 --> 01:28:38.359 guys doing work, doing work with the CIA on a 1676 01:28:38.399 --> 01:28:40.199 couple of on a couple of missions down near the 1677 01:28:41.399 --> 01:28:43.680 down in the Pakistan border. I think you know, it 1678 01:28:43.800 --> 01:28:48.399 was just interesting, varied, varied, varied missions, which I really enjoyed, 1679 01:28:48.680 --> 01:28:50.800 really enjoyed, gives you different incld. We had some really 1680 01:28:50.840 --> 01:28:52.600 good results as well, and we also got to do 1681 01:28:52.680 --> 01:28:54.800 some of the tasty stuff we did in a six top. 1682 01:28:55.239 --> 01:28:56.960 We're going and like I said, we're going to boasts 1683 01:28:56.960 --> 01:29:00.640 a two para. We're out there at that time in 1684 01:29:00.880 --> 01:29:03.560 Helm and doing a kind of equivalent tour we don't 1685 01:29:03.560 --> 01:29:06.720 know six and they were doing some real real doing 1686 01:29:06.800 --> 01:29:09.199 some real tasty places, and we went into a couple 1687 01:29:09.199 --> 01:29:11.680 of their sports and bolted them and basically got to 1688 01:29:11.720 --> 01:29:13.880 get given a bit of a rest and going and 1689 01:29:13.960 --> 01:29:16.039 do us going to some areas they weren't able to 1690 01:29:16.079 --> 01:29:19.239 reach purely because of resources and and and then the 1691 01:29:19.319 --> 01:29:20.920 state of the troops. Basically, you know, we were we 1692 01:29:20.960 --> 01:29:23.920 were fresher and I had some great results in there. 1693 01:29:26.079 --> 01:29:27.439 That was the first time actually I came across a 1694 01:29:27.439 --> 01:29:30.439 Taliban fight away uniform, as in it wasn't police uniform, 1695 01:29:30.600 --> 01:29:32.840 was his own, his uniform. 1696 01:29:33.920 --> 01:29:35.960 It sounds like this is kind of like a deployment 1697 01:29:35.960 --> 01:29:38.880 where you're really moving on to sort of like oh, 1698 01:29:38.920 --> 01:29:40.600 what's the term I want to use, but more more 1699 01:29:40.720 --> 01:29:43.039 like special operations than infantry. 1700 01:29:44.039 --> 01:29:46.880 Yeah, definitely, and that's yeah, yeah, definitely, And that was 1701 01:29:46.960 --> 01:29:51.840 quite quite rare, quite rare at that point for us. 1702 01:29:52.239 --> 01:29:56.640 For the regiment anyway, one Power, we're doing one Power 1703 01:29:56.640 --> 01:29:58.840 I think we're already in the Special Force of Support rule. 1704 01:29:58.880 --> 01:30:01.439 So they were doing sort of stuff with with s 1705 01:30:01.640 --> 01:30:05.520 F and and our guys. So our guys rotate between. 1706 01:30:05.560 --> 01:30:08.319 We've got three battalions Maine battalions one one Power, two Power, 1707 01:30:08.319 --> 01:30:11.039 and three Power, and so you change between the battalions. 1708 01:30:11.479 --> 01:30:13.000 So we had guys who go off to one Power 1709 01:30:13.079 --> 01:30:14.960 part of Special Forces Support Group, they come back and 1710 01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:18.319 it's just that's the that's to make sure that you 1711 01:30:18.399 --> 01:30:20.840 don't have skill fay in any particular area because you've 1712 01:30:20.840 --> 01:30:24.800 got a Special Force Support Group one Power, and you know, 1713 01:30:24.920 --> 01:30:27.760 you do very little conventional stuff. You do a lot 1714 01:30:27.800 --> 01:30:31.560 of s F orientedst training wise and mission wise and 1715 01:30:31.760 --> 01:30:34.720 so and so we chopping ch between to make sure 1716 01:30:35.159 --> 01:30:37.159 the skills aren't lost. And you and you and you 1717 01:30:37.439 --> 01:30:39.680 and you share knowledge between the units as well. So 1718 01:30:40.079 --> 01:30:42.880 that was quite anod that point, But it was, yeah, 1719 01:30:42.920 --> 01:30:47.920 it was good, it was it was it was refreshing 1720 01:30:48.039 --> 01:30:54.600 to have such specific, defined, team bound missions not like 1721 01:30:55.039 --> 01:30:55.960 you have a six months. 1722 01:30:56.680 --> 01:31:00.920 But yeah, it also massive. How good to go on 1723 01:31:01.079 --> 01:31:04.159 the offense after your last tour. 1724 01:31:05.319 --> 01:31:08.239 Oh yeah, oh definitely, Oh yeah, yeah, good point. Yeah, 1725 01:31:08.239 --> 01:31:15.279 I did for sure. And and it was also a 1726 01:31:15.399 --> 01:31:18.199 variety of offensive ops we're doing. Sometimes, you know, we 1727 01:31:18.279 --> 01:31:20.119 go out with vehicles and being laid up in the 1728 01:31:20.119 --> 01:31:23.359 desert and aliga for a couple of days and then 1729 01:31:23.479 --> 01:31:26.199 go patrolling into the green zone and and put a 1730 01:31:26.239 --> 01:31:29.079 bump in. Other other times, you know, we dropped off 1731 01:31:29.079 --> 01:31:34.680 on a helly k's away uh and then going on 1732 01:31:34.800 --> 01:31:37.960 foot put an ambush and then and then bug out. 1733 01:31:38.199 --> 01:31:40.159 It was it was good to be on the offensive 1734 01:31:40.199 --> 01:31:41.920 side for sure. And like I said, we had a 1735 01:31:41.920 --> 01:31:44.239 lot of we had a lot of great results, like 1736 01:31:44.760 --> 01:31:47.039 tangible results. You get feed One of the advantages of 1737 01:31:47.079 --> 01:31:51.359 doing your missions like that is because because intelligence is 1738 01:31:52.359 --> 01:31:55.560 so much more, you're closer to the you're sort of 1739 01:31:55.600 --> 01:31:58.319 closer to the source of intelligence, right, You're closer to 1740 01:31:58.359 --> 01:32:01.560 the agencies. It was really on on on top of 1741 01:32:02.079 --> 01:32:04.159 where the intelligence has come from and what it can mean. 1742 01:32:04.479 --> 01:32:07.760 And so we'd often get feedback. So if we captured 1743 01:32:07.800 --> 01:32:10.079 the killed someone brought him in, we'd often get feedback 1744 01:32:10.119 --> 01:32:12.199 a couple of weeks later, like that guy you brought 1745 01:32:12.199 --> 01:32:14.680 in or that guy you shot, he was actually such 1746 01:32:14.720 --> 01:32:18.039 and such commander, actually such and such, and you like, awesome. 1747 01:32:18.079 --> 01:32:20.479 You don't get that in normal, normal operations, you know, 1748 01:32:20.560 --> 01:32:25.439 you just you just because he very rarely returning a 1749 01:32:25.520 --> 01:32:30.359 dead guy to two to the agencies, especially like in 1750 01:32:30.399 --> 01:32:33.720 Musekala when sangin. You know, you haven't got time or 1751 01:32:33.760 --> 01:32:35.560 the inclination to do it. The guy is standing out 1752 01:32:35.600 --> 01:32:36.960 there and they're gonna and his friends are going to 1753 01:32:37.039 --> 01:32:37.680 sweep them up. 1754 01:32:37.680 --> 01:32:40.279 And you're not leaving the wire to recover the body. 1755 01:32:40.319 --> 01:32:43.359 And even if you going to come and collect it, yeah. 1756 01:32:43.880 --> 01:32:47.319 No, exactly, and most of them wouldn't have any actionable 1757 01:32:47.359 --> 01:32:48.399 intelligence on them anyway. 1758 01:32:51.159 --> 01:32:54.239 Then what was the third pump to Afghanistan? 1759 01:32:56.680 --> 01:33:00.640 Very similar to the first in terms of you know, 1760 01:33:00.800 --> 01:33:07.920 occupying platoon houses, occupying forward operating bases, and again it 1761 01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:11.199 was in Hellman, but but obviously with so many more truths. 1762 01:33:11.199 --> 01:33:13.479 I think I think at that point we had ten 1763 01:33:13.600 --> 01:33:16.880 thousand in country. I think you guys had something like 1764 01:33:17.039 --> 01:33:21.960 forty thousand, maybe maybe more. I thinking so smaller areas, 1765 01:33:23.920 --> 01:33:27.520 we have more troops in smaller areas but because so 1766 01:33:27.640 --> 01:33:30.279 that was two and ten to eleven through Christmas dollars. 1767 01:33:30.600 --> 01:33:34.279 But because the public sentiment towards what we were doing 1768 01:33:34.319 --> 01:33:37.840 out there started to shift slightly, Like the publics the public, 1769 01:33:38.000 --> 01:33:41.760 the public's appetite over here for accepting casualties and deaths 1770 01:33:42.199 --> 01:33:44.560 on a daily basis was really starting to die down, 1771 01:33:45.760 --> 01:33:47.880 starting to dwndle, you know, a bit like this support 1772 01:33:47.920 --> 01:33:49.399 for ukrain Is at the minute, it's like it's on 1773 01:33:49.520 --> 01:33:51.640 the diet dying down. So it makes it really hard 1774 01:33:51.760 --> 01:33:55.439 to the appetite of risk becomes less. And that tour 1775 01:33:55.640 --> 01:34:00.720 was it was much less conventional and much less sort 1776 01:34:00.720 --> 01:34:03.279 of small lands attacks from the Taliban. What the Taliban 1777 01:34:03.359 --> 01:34:07.479 realized early on having a six and seven, so from 1778 01:34:07.520 --> 01:34:09.720 the first instance of British troops getting out there is like, hey, 1779 01:34:10.000 --> 01:34:12.000 we may not be able to combat them like this. 1780 01:34:12.159 --> 01:34:14.319 We're not doing very well. We're getting slaughtered. So they 1781 01:34:14.359 --> 01:34:17.720 started switching to the tactics over to IDs in direct attacks, 1782 01:34:18.159 --> 01:34:21.600 much like happened in Iraq and happens elsewhere. And that's 1783 01:34:21.640 --> 01:34:25.680 what that's what it was like eleven. They would they 1784 01:34:25.720 --> 01:34:28.600 would tend to initiate contacts with small lambs if they 1785 01:34:28.600 --> 01:34:30.199 were going to have a prolonged contact with small arms, 1786 01:34:30.239 --> 01:34:32.800 they'd be quite far away, like minimal risks themselves, but 1787 01:34:32.880 --> 01:34:36.000 it almost always been in direct in direct attacks from 1788 01:34:36.000 --> 01:34:38.520 sort of an ID or something else, multiply I D's 1789 01:34:38.600 --> 01:34:42.199 or something else. And and because of that lack of 1790 01:34:43.279 --> 01:34:47.439 that less appetitite for risk that the British military had 1791 01:34:47.479 --> 01:34:51.560 out there, it actually restricted us a lot in terms 1792 01:34:51.600 --> 01:34:54.159 of what we could do technically. You know. So there 1793 01:34:54.159 --> 01:34:57.920 were things like there was a rule that you weren't 1794 01:34:57.920 --> 01:35:00.119 allowed to go and putting up put any for of 1795 01:35:00.239 --> 01:35:02.800 mission in any form of patrol, any form of any 1796 01:35:02.920 --> 01:35:07.760 action in which was less than twelve people. Now I'm 1797 01:35:07.760 --> 01:35:11.279 a sniper, like twelve people is a fucking nightmare. Yeah, 1798 01:35:11.520 --> 01:35:18.279 you know, we're doing that. And and so that immediately 1799 01:35:18.439 --> 01:35:22.680 restricture ability to move super silently, to move without being seen, 1800 01:35:22.720 --> 01:35:24.920 to move without being heard, you know, unless you've got 1801 01:35:24.920 --> 01:35:28.680 twelve ninjas or twelve snipers. No, no, disrespectable last snipers. 1802 01:35:28.720 --> 01:35:30.720 But like with the snipers, and we trained that way 1803 01:35:30.720 --> 01:35:32.439 for a reason. We're just better at doing that kind 1804 01:35:32.439 --> 01:35:35.600 of stuff than other people. It makes it really problematic, 1805 01:35:35.680 --> 01:35:39.520 and again it provides more opportunity to be anyway to attack. 1806 01:35:40.199 --> 01:35:44.399 And then you couple that with the ramp up in 1807 01:35:44.479 --> 01:35:48.039 protective equipment that we had to wear. You know, we 1808 01:35:48.199 --> 01:35:51.199 were really lumbered down with these massive, massive which is 1809 01:35:51.319 --> 01:35:54.439 normal now, but these massive front plate, massive back plate. 1810 01:35:55.960 --> 01:35:57.880 Our helmets had changed. So on the first you know, 1811 01:35:57.880 --> 01:35:59.279 we went out in twousand and six, we be on 1812 01:35:59.439 --> 01:36:03.399 like airborne helmets which were very light weight turns and ten. 1813 01:36:03.439 --> 01:36:05.479 We couldn't do that in terms of six. The reality 1814 01:36:05.720 --> 01:36:07.800 was because because of the way the Taliban could move 1815 01:36:08.319 --> 01:36:10.520 so light when they're dished ashes, right, they've got they've 1816 01:36:10.560 --> 01:36:12.600 got a few pouches with the mags in the AK 1817 01:36:12.760 --> 01:36:15.479 forty seven. They don't need much water because they lived there. 1818 01:36:15.640 --> 01:36:18.279 They'd like a customer climate. What we would end up 1819 01:36:18.279 --> 01:36:20.600 doing a lot of the time on our offensive operations 1820 01:36:20.720 --> 01:36:22.960 is when we get dropped in, so we jump off 1821 01:36:22.960 --> 01:36:24.880 the hellies and we would take our armor off and 1822 01:36:24.960 --> 01:36:27.039 we would case shit and even then, but the end 1823 01:36:27.119 --> 01:36:28.840 the armor was really light anyway. It was like a 1824 01:36:29.359 --> 01:36:31.279 flack jacket for one of a better word. And then 1825 01:36:31.359 --> 01:36:34.640 a small chest plate you know, maybe I don't know, 1826 01:36:35.279 --> 01:36:38.479 eight inches by four inch, maybe nine inches by four 1827 01:36:38.520 --> 01:36:41.760 inches in shape cover your heart and on your back 1828 01:36:41.840 --> 01:36:43.960 to cover your heart from the rear. We would ditch 1829 01:36:44.039 --> 01:36:45.960 those and just put in a pile and we were 1830 01:36:46.000 --> 01:36:48.199 going with nobody armor, and we'd have a helmet and 1831 01:36:48.239 --> 01:36:50.239 we clip into our webon because we could move faster. 1832 01:36:50.960 --> 01:36:52.960 And to us, the advantage to be able to move 1833 01:36:53.079 --> 01:36:56.119 fast out with the disadvantage you have no armor, less 1834 01:36:56.159 --> 01:36:57.720 likely to get short if you can get shot, if 1835 01:36:57.760 --> 01:36:59.319 you can move quick. You know, if you can move 1836 01:36:59.439 --> 01:37:02.920 quick as you had fast Forward eleven, you wouldn't be 1837 01:37:02.960 --> 01:37:04.600 allowed to take your armor off. It was like nope, 1838 01:37:04.680 --> 01:37:06.920 not allowed to do it. No helmet off. And and 1839 01:37:07.079 --> 01:37:10.359 as as snipers, the kind of equipment issued, you couldn't 1840 01:37:10.359 --> 01:37:13.439 even get into a decent fire position or like a 1841 01:37:13.840 --> 01:37:16.920 prone fire position because of the armor would really chest up. 1842 01:37:17.159 --> 01:37:18.680 The helmet would hit in the back of your arm. 1843 01:37:18.720 --> 01:37:20.479 On the push forward. You couldn't get your help to 1844 01:37:20.520 --> 01:37:24.000 look through the scope. Just a nightmare. Again, these I 1845 01:37:24.000 --> 01:37:26.039 think these are just I don't know if you guys 1846 01:37:26.119 --> 01:37:28.239 experienced the same thing or your your guys experience the 1847 01:37:28.319 --> 01:37:31.439 same thing. You know, it's very frustrating, but how do 1848 01:37:31.520 --> 01:37:35.840 you explain to the mother or father dead of a 1849 01:37:35.920 --> 01:37:41.000 dead kid that you know less armors better right when 1850 01:37:41.039 --> 01:37:42.960 maybe you know, I went into a I went into 1851 01:37:43.079 --> 01:37:45.680 an inquest after the first tour when we came back, 1852 01:37:46.039 --> 01:37:50.880 an inquest to a couple of guys who died. They'd 1853 01:37:50.960 --> 01:37:56.640 been a direct hit with the water and they were 1854 01:37:56.680 --> 01:37:59.760 just peppered, obviously, and the mother was and one of 1855 01:37:59.760 --> 01:38:03.680 the and she asked of the Ministry of Defense representative 1856 01:38:03.840 --> 01:38:06.279 is like, why can't why aren't you able to issue 1857 01:38:06.720 --> 01:38:10.159 body arm that covers the entire body? You know, like, 1858 01:38:10.359 --> 01:38:13.640 I know the answer to that. The answer is obvious 1859 01:38:13.680 --> 01:38:15.760 to anyone who's rationally thought, but not to the mother 1860 01:38:15.840 --> 01:38:18.239 of dead kids, you know, you know what I mean. 1861 01:38:18.800 --> 01:38:23.560 So it really really hampered things, which ultimately I think 1862 01:38:23.680 --> 01:38:26.119 is you know, one of the reasons that our footprint 1863 01:38:26.159 --> 01:38:27.920 was a lot smaller. You know, you can put loads 1864 01:38:27.920 --> 01:38:29.680 of troops in the area, footment is a lot smaller. 1865 01:38:29.760 --> 01:38:33.520 The Taliban have more confidence, loads of ice star assets up. 1866 01:38:34.239 --> 01:38:35.520 You know, we had loads of eyes on the ground 1867 01:38:35.560 --> 01:38:38.039 and things, but very you need boots on the ground 1868 01:38:38.159 --> 01:38:41.199 to have any form of influence, and in reality on 1869 01:38:41.319 --> 01:38:46.039 those county surgery operations. As you guys know, one part 1870 01:38:46.079 --> 01:38:48.479 of it is killing the enemy. The second part of 1871 01:38:48.479 --> 01:38:52.279 it is winning over the locals demonstrate why we are here, right, 1872 01:38:52.359 --> 01:38:54.039 you know, you got over and you need boots on 1873 01:38:54.039 --> 01:38:55.720 the ground to do that and safe boots on the ground, 1874 01:38:56.239 --> 01:38:59.439 and it was difficult for us to do it. Plus 1875 01:38:59.560 --> 01:39:01.560 Afghana stand in the winter is miserable. 1876 01:39:01.760 --> 01:39:01.960 Yeah. 1877 01:39:03.359 --> 01:39:06.319 Yeah, So coming back from that tour, talk to us 1878 01:39:06.319 --> 01:39:09.079 a little bit about like you know, where your head 1879 01:39:09.199 --> 01:39:13.640 is at at the time. You're kind of like you said, 1880 01:39:13.640 --> 01:39:17.319 you moved along quite quickly in the paras. How did 1881 01:39:17.359 --> 01:39:19.760 you see kind of your future prospects at this time? 1882 01:39:20.119 --> 01:39:21.880 What was your decision making process? 1883 01:39:22.039 --> 01:39:26.720 Like I wanted So one of the things we have 1884 01:39:26.920 --> 01:39:29.479 to do were you're supposed to do before, certainly before 1885 01:39:29.479 --> 01:39:31.079 you get promoted to a corp or so you know, 1886 01:39:31.359 --> 01:39:34.920 at a squad leader or like a cartoon side if 1887 01:39:34.960 --> 01:39:36.760 you're supposed to go and do a we call it 1888 01:39:36.800 --> 01:39:39.479 a knee posting, external posting, supposed to go and do 1889 01:39:39.600 --> 01:39:43.399 basically the common one is gone being instructor somewhere for 1890 01:39:43.479 --> 01:39:46.359 two years just you know, So it's basically to me, 1891 01:39:46.640 --> 01:39:49.800 it's basically to try and reduce the chance of someone 1892 01:39:49.840 --> 01:39:52.000 getting promoted up to the ranks because hisnates high up, 1893 01:39:52.319 --> 01:39:54.800 he's got mates, and this guy is actually useless to 1894 01:39:54.840 --> 01:39:57.800 get promoted, it's sort of to validate. Hey, this guy's 1895 01:39:57.840 --> 01:40:01.800 being externally audited if you like. Right, it's last, that's 1896 01:40:01.840 --> 01:40:05.119 what it is. I didn't have to do that because 1897 01:40:05.119 --> 01:40:07.319 the operation, because the operational temper what I was doing, 1898 01:40:07.680 --> 01:40:10.279 I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't go anywhere, 1899 01:40:11.399 --> 01:40:12.960 which I'm glad of because I would have missed the 1900 01:40:13.279 --> 01:40:15.960 fear of missing out with extreme for any of these 1901 01:40:16.319 --> 01:40:19.159 any of these operations. But I knew I was going 1902 01:40:19.239 --> 01:40:23.159 to have to do well because they wanted me to. 1903 01:40:23.720 --> 01:40:27.279 They be in the career. People in the unit wanted 1904 01:40:27.359 --> 01:40:31.520 me to go to Sandhurst as an instructor and instruct 1905 01:40:31.600 --> 01:40:34.119 young officers, so bringing young officers up, and that's quite 1906 01:40:34.119 --> 01:40:38.399 a prestigious posting. Like you go there, if you get 1907 01:40:38.800 --> 01:40:40.760 you get you get told to go to Sandhurst if 1908 01:40:41.720 --> 01:40:45.359 your career projection is high, like you're going to go 1909 01:40:45.399 --> 01:40:47.520 all the way, You're going to be a regimental sergeant 1910 01:40:47.520 --> 01:40:50.359 major of one of the units. Basically they think that's 1911 01:40:50.359 --> 01:40:52.239 the case. It's not guaranteed, but you've got to Sanders 1912 01:40:52.319 --> 01:40:53.479 to do that. And I didn't. I didn't want to 1913 01:40:53.479 --> 01:40:57.479 go to Sandurst. I want to go to Brecon Brecon 1914 01:40:57.560 --> 01:41:00.640 Lets I mentioned earlier in Wales as well, how infantry 1915 01:41:00.800 --> 01:41:05.399 battles school. It's cold, it's miserable, it's horrible. It's where 1916 01:41:05.479 --> 01:41:09.800 you it's where you send soldiers to go to learn 1917 01:41:10.399 --> 01:41:13.039 how to be tacticians, how to think under pressure, how 1918 01:41:13.079 --> 01:41:15.720 to perform under pressure physically and mentally, in one of 1919 01:41:15.760 --> 01:41:18.319 the most disgusting places in the UK, you know, in 1920 01:41:18.439 --> 01:41:23.600 terms of environment and weather and terrain, midwhales, glorious country. 1921 01:41:25.760 --> 01:41:28.399 I wanted to go there because Sanders was. You know, 1922 01:41:28.520 --> 01:41:30.600 you're teaching a lot of drill, You're teaching a lot 1923 01:41:30.640 --> 01:41:33.640 of You're teaching basically new recruits. All the officers out 1924 01:41:33.680 --> 01:41:35.760 they build their boots, polish their boots, and I'm in 1925 01:41:35.800 --> 01:41:38.319 the uniform. You don't know all the other stuff like 1926 01:41:38.439 --> 01:41:40.640 teaching them tactics and all the rest of it. But 1927 01:41:40.800 --> 01:41:43.199 I only wanted to teach that stuff, and I only 1928 01:41:43.239 --> 01:41:45.880 wanted to teach it to the actual guy who's actually 1929 01:41:46.560 --> 01:41:50.279 you know, young guys like I was, who were not officers, 1930 01:41:50.840 --> 01:41:52.960 who were the guys who make everything work, you know. 1931 01:41:54.159 --> 01:41:57.000 But they didn't want me to do that. So we 1932 01:41:57.119 --> 01:41:59.439 had a full and I ended up leaving after after 1933 01:41:59.560 --> 01:42:05.079 this the third tour, and I think I'm a bit 1934 01:42:05.119 --> 01:42:06.960 about that. I mean, I wouldn't be you know, I 1935 01:42:07.039 --> 01:42:11.319 told you guys if it wasn't But yeah, that's that's 1936 01:42:11.439 --> 01:42:13.960 that's what I'm there. The the I became, I got 1937 01:42:14.079 --> 01:42:16.479 pretty bitter about it because I sort of I'd not 1938 01:42:16.560 --> 01:42:20.000 put up a fight about anything. I'd done everything that 1939 01:42:20.079 --> 01:42:22.920 was asked to be up to that point. But my, my, my, 1940 01:42:23.359 --> 01:42:28.439 my operational tempo throughout my career, I've been high non stop, 1941 01:42:28.640 --> 01:42:30.399 you know, from two thousand and one, that first Northern 1942 01:42:30.399 --> 01:42:33.319 Island tour all the way through twenty and eleven, non stop. 1943 01:42:33.800 --> 01:42:37.119 My feet hadn't touched the ground, and I'd performed well, 1944 01:42:37.239 --> 01:42:38.760 not grumbled about anything. And then the one thing I 1945 01:42:38.800 --> 01:42:40.800 asked for and they said no, and I got very upset, 1946 01:42:41.840 --> 01:42:44.279 very bit, very quickly. But the thing is at that 1947 01:42:44.439 --> 01:42:49.520 time is that we knew that three Power knew that 1948 01:42:49.840 --> 01:42:52.039 we weren't going back to Afghanistan. It was that was 1949 01:42:52.119 --> 01:42:53.600 the end of it for us, because it was all 1950 01:42:53.720 --> 01:42:56.920 dying off and the rotations we weren't on that roster. 1951 01:42:57.479 --> 01:42:59.680 It was like another four or five rotations to go 1952 01:42:59.840 --> 01:43:01.960 and were we weren't going to be on it, so 1953 01:43:02.439 --> 01:43:04.399 and there was nothing else on the horizon. So the 1954 01:43:04.479 --> 01:43:09.640 prospect of staying in and basically being you know, like 1955 01:43:09.720 --> 01:43:12.880 one of those old grumpy guys that had been there 1956 01:43:12.880 --> 01:43:15.399 when I turned up to hadn't tell them one, we've 1957 01:43:15.439 --> 01:43:18.199 done nothing, you know, or bitter because they were in 1958 01:43:18.239 --> 01:43:20.319 the Falklands and had done nothing since they were angry 1959 01:43:20.359 --> 01:43:22.800 about that. You know, the prospect of being that and 1960 01:43:22.920 --> 01:43:26.840 being basically a camp soldier, you know, a barrack soldier 1961 01:43:27.199 --> 01:43:29.640 was was not exciting. And this circuit was kicking off 1962 01:43:29.640 --> 01:43:31.479 at the time. You know, I think Dave you mentioned 1963 01:43:31.520 --> 01:43:36.399 you were a contractor. So time since six actually since 1964 01:43:36.439 --> 01:43:40.760 two thousand and six for us from three Power. Once 1965 01:43:40.880 --> 01:43:45.439 people had done what they wanted to do and satisfy 1966 01:43:45.479 --> 01:43:49.279 themselves with combat in the military, a lot of the 1967 01:43:49.359 --> 01:43:51.800 guys after six Talk and three Power, they left and 1968 01:43:51.880 --> 01:43:54.119 they went onto the circuit because the circuit in Iraq 1969 01:43:54.199 --> 01:43:56.840 with booming, you know, private securities with booming since one, 1970 01:43:57.760 --> 01:44:02.239 two or three sorry onwards, was booming, and there's a 1971 01:44:02.239 --> 01:44:05.000 lot of money to be made. So those guys went 1972 01:44:06.760 --> 01:44:09.840 and I did the same thing after after two thousand 1973 01:44:09.840 --> 01:44:12.640 and eleven out there earned a lot of money. That 1974 01:44:12.720 --> 01:44:14.800 was the plan. Earn a lot of money and so 1975 01:44:14.920 --> 01:44:19.000 we get to do cool things. We're just getting paid 1976 01:44:19.039 --> 01:44:24.000 more I did. It wasn't quite as wasn't I was 1977 01:44:24.000 --> 01:44:25.880 looking at through rose tinted spectacles. 1978 01:44:26.439 --> 01:44:28.359 How did it go in actuality? 1979 01:44:30.640 --> 01:44:34.600 Well, you know what private security deals. Yeah, first of 1980 01:44:34.760 --> 01:44:36.960 private security dealers are like out in in out in 1981 01:44:37.000 --> 01:44:39.720 the oil fields out in Iraq and other places. It's 1982 01:44:39.760 --> 01:44:44.319 basically glorified taxi service at the most part. Yeah, so 1983 01:44:45.479 --> 01:44:50.199 uh yeah, you know, armored vehicles carrying oil workers around 1984 01:44:50.199 --> 01:44:51.960 different parts of the area. It was a bit it 1985 01:44:52.039 --> 01:44:54.760 was a bit surreal because we were we were working 1986 01:44:54.800 --> 01:44:56.479 in an area that I'd been in two other three 1987 01:44:56.640 --> 01:44:59.239 in trenches and the trenches were still there, you know, 1988 01:44:59.399 --> 01:45:02.560 ramal and in place. So that's a bit weird. And 1989 01:45:02.880 --> 01:45:06.640 flash fast forward to that would have been twenty twenty eleven, 1990 01:45:06.760 --> 01:45:09.600 late twenty eleven. I started there and the Iraq hadn't 1991 01:45:09.720 --> 01:45:13.239 changed much for the better since we went in in 1992 01:45:13.359 --> 01:45:15.680 thousand and three. That's a bit of a common theme 1993 01:45:15.760 --> 01:45:18.600 and other places. Right, definitely hasn't changed much. But then 1994 01:45:18.680 --> 01:45:22.920 Iraq's a pretty a particular place. It's not I don't 1995 01:45:22.920 --> 01:45:25.640 know it's a it's an odd it's an odd place. 1996 01:45:25.640 --> 01:45:27.800 It's almost like they don't want to evolve that much. 1997 01:45:28.760 --> 01:45:30.239 I don't think I think they're quite happy the way 1998 01:45:30.279 --> 01:45:30.439 it is. 1999 01:45:30.760 --> 01:45:34.760 Middle Middle Eastern politics are extremely frustrating, to say the least. 2000 01:45:36.479 --> 01:45:39.560 Yeah true, yeah, true, And and and frustrate even more 2001 01:45:39.680 --> 01:45:42.239 countries like Iraq where the politics don't seem to pervade 2002 01:45:42.279 --> 01:45:43.560 outside of the capital city. 2003 01:45:43.840 --> 01:45:49.399 Yeah right, yeah, and even more so even more so. Right, 2004 01:45:49.560 --> 01:45:50.720 nobody cares what's going. 2005 01:45:50.600 --> 01:45:54.199 On a cobbles. It's not their tribe, it's not their village. 2006 01:45:54.600 --> 01:45:58.479 You're exactly this is, this is, this is I mean, 2007 01:45:58.520 --> 01:46:01.479 this is a good point if this goes back to 2008 01:46:01.680 --> 01:46:03.520 some of the frustrations we had. And on the third 2009 01:46:03.600 --> 01:46:06.560 time he went out there, the third tour went out, 2010 01:46:06.600 --> 01:46:09.079 I was doing a sort of dual role of like 2011 01:46:09.159 --> 01:46:14.520 a low like a intelligence officer role but on a 2012 01:46:14.600 --> 01:46:17.840 sub unit, so part of the part of the power company, 2013 01:46:18.560 --> 01:46:23.079 and also a sniper role there on the offensive operations 2014 01:46:23.079 --> 01:46:25.319 that we did. And so I got this sitting on 2015 01:46:25.399 --> 01:46:27.279 a lot of assurance. The meetings with the key leaders. 2016 01:46:27.920 --> 01:46:35.960 You know, by that point, they they were just they 2017 01:46:36.000 --> 01:46:39.840 were just saying the words that they you know, and 2018 01:46:40.439 --> 01:46:43.680 we knew that someone o were Taliban. We knew there 2019 01:46:43.760 --> 01:46:47.479 was all he knew. They were playing both sides and 2020 01:46:48.159 --> 01:46:49.920 they knew we knew, and we couldn't learning about it. 2021 01:46:49.960 --> 01:46:51.920 And the reality is they knew we're going to leave, 2022 01:46:52.279 --> 01:46:54.239 and they just they just march in time. They just 2023 01:46:55.640 --> 01:46:58.479 they just plodded along until until the Taliban come back. 2024 01:46:58.479 --> 01:47:04.479 And it's a real they said it stuck between a 2025 01:47:04.560 --> 01:47:06.920 rock and a hard place, right. They know the Taliban's 2026 01:47:06.960 --> 01:47:09.439 in the coming, they know we're there. We know they 2027 01:47:09.520 --> 01:47:11.520 don't want us to like the Taliban or help. We 2028 01:47:11.560 --> 01:47:13.520 don't want them to help the Taliban. But so they 2029 01:47:13.600 --> 01:47:15.600 had to be seen to be helping us while not 2030 01:47:15.680 --> 01:47:18.319 pissing off the Taliban, right because we're going to be gone, 2031 01:47:18.720 --> 01:47:21.359 so and and back to the you know. The point 2032 01:47:21.399 --> 01:47:24.520 that brought this up is that it doesn't impact their 2033 01:47:24.600 --> 01:47:28.079 lives that much. Who's in charge. They still get the tender. 2034 01:47:28.319 --> 01:47:31.319 This is away from like Cabull, away from lash Gagark 2035 01:47:31.359 --> 01:47:34.039 and there in the sticks, the farmers, the rural areas, 2036 01:47:34.720 --> 01:47:39.760 you know, the the bed win. Their life's the same 2037 01:47:39.960 --> 01:47:43.119 when it's British all patrolling all the Taliban. You know, 2038 01:47:43.199 --> 01:47:45.840 their life's the same, I think for the most part, 2039 01:47:46.119 --> 01:47:48.720 and probably it's more probably they would perceive it as 2040 01:47:48.800 --> 01:47:55.119 more structured and predictable and understandable under the Taliban because 2041 01:47:55.119 --> 01:47:57.720 that's what they've known for longer. They understand sharia law 2042 01:47:57.840 --> 01:48:00.119 and all the other things. They know them better than 2043 01:48:00.159 --> 01:48:05.600 in no ways, they played a long game, right. Yeah, 2044 01:48:06.399 --> 01:48:08.800 it's kind of it's not frustrating to talk about like 2045 01:48:08.840 --> 01:48:10.760 this because I don't want to make it sound like 2046 01:48:11.199 --> 01:48:12.840 what was the point of any of it? You know, 2047 01:48:12.920 --> 01:48:19.159 it's it's but it kind of it puts it into perspective, 2048 01:48:19.239 --> 01:48:21.720 and you see them when you when you leave like that, 2049 01:48:21.920 --> 01:48:26.800 and ignoring the evacuation what three four what was it now? 2050 01:48:27.039 --> 01:48:30.039 Four years ago? It puts into perspective when they move 2051 01:48:30.159 --> 01:48:34.720 so easily back under the Taliban, just carry on his 2052 01:48:34.800 --> 01:48:37.039 normal job and it's just like, take take out the leader, 2053 01:48:37.199 --> 01:48:40.199 put this leader in this structure, government structure, and it's fine. 2054 01:48:40.319 --> 01:48:41.199 They don't change anything. 2055 01:48:42.039 --> 01:48:47.159 And there's there's very much a like a fatalistic. 2056 01:48:48.479 --> 01:48:52.159 Tenor or whatever to like a lot of these Islamic 2057 01:48:52.319 --> 01:48:55.600 countries where if a strong man is ruling, it's probably 2058 01:48:55.640 --> 01:48:59.640 because the strong man deserves to rule, Like you don't 2059 01:48:59.800 --> 01:49:04.000 have have these these ideas of like individual liberty and 2060 01:49:04.399 --> 01:49:04.920 things like that. 2061 01:49:05.399 --> 01:49:07.960 They just don't stand up for it often. 2062 01:49:09.000 --> 01:49:12.560 Yeah, exactly. So it's like okay, yeah, so all right, 2063 01:49:12.640 --> 01:49:17.359 so going there and we need to improve X country 2064 01:49:18.199 --> 01:49:21.560 because their standards of living and what we expect them 2065 01:49:21.600 --> 01:49:24.039 to be like don't match up with ours. Okay, but 2066 01:49:24.119 --> 01:49:26.920 how do they match up to their expectations? Right? Because 2067 01:49:26.960 --> 01:49:30.039 by their expectations they're totally fine. Right. It's like the 2068 01:49:30.520 --> 01:49:33.479 tribe in the Amazon who don't have smartphones, right, they 2069 01:49:33.479 --> 01:49:37.560 don't have bricks and they don't have bicycles, they don't 2070 01:49:37.600 --> 01:49:40.159 bother because that's how they live and they're quite act me. 2071 01:49:40.239 --> 01:49:42.439 They don't know any different. Even when you introduce something 2072 01:49:42.439 --> 01:49:44.960 different than they're not, they don't like it. Still the same, 2073 01:49:45.000 --> 01:49:47.279 it's kind of the same, and the standards are very different. 2074 01:49:47.640 --> 01:49:50.680 Same with you know again Afghanistan. As you pointed out there, 2075 01:49:52.000 --> 01:49:54.600 what is right and what is wrong is different based 2076 01:49:54.640 --> 01:49:57.119 on your perspective and when you're understanding and what the 2077 01:49:57.199 --> 01:49:59.880 culture is built on foundationally historic. 2078 01:50:00.960 --> 01:50:04.399 So you did the contractors circuit for a little while, 2079 01:50:04.680 --> 01:50:06.800 and where are you at today? What are you up 2080 01:50:06.800 --> 01:50:07.399 to nowadays? 2081 01:50:10.039 --> 01:50:13.800 I managed, well, I sorry, got I do Hate Shower, 2082 01:50:13.960 --> 01:50:16.159 which is we started I as a hobby, the podcast 2083 01:50:16.600 --> 01:50:18.319 off as a hobby, but now it's like a second job. 2084 01:50:19.239 --> 01:50:21.760 Really a second job doesn't doesn't earn for me, but 2085 01:50:21.920 --> 01:50:23.880 it's when I was a can't step away from because 2086 01:50:23.920 --> 01:50:27.239 it's it's just so valuable for a million different other reasons. 2087 01:50:27.439 --> 01:50:30.640 But I work for I work for a global Stockcom's company. 2088 01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:36.159 I do. I do service delivery for for government government 2089 01:50:37.399 --> 01:50:43.800 customers Startcom's company, which is interesting in itself, yeah itself, 2090 01:50:43.920 --> 01:50:46.439 And it's also strange because I was never a comms guy. 2091 01:50:46.800 --> 01:50:49.800 When I was in kind of can't work out, I 2092 01:50:49.920 --> 01:50:52.319 ended up in a sackcoms company. But you know, I'm 2093 01:50:52.359 --> 01:50:56.199 here and I'm enjoying it. But yeah, my day job, 2094 01:50:56.239 --> 01:50:57.960 but that is very much an enabler for Hate Shower. 2095 01:50:58.359 --> 01:50:59.479 You know, and have a few other things I do 2096 01:50:59.600 --> 01:51:01.760 want to say, which is sort of you know, veteran oriented. 2097 01:51:02.399 --> 01:51:06.000 But yes, what I do. I think, like you guys 2098 01:51:06.079 --> 01:51:07.640 are trying, I try and do an episode a week 2099 01:51:07.680 --> 01:51:09.560 at least at least. 2100 01:51:09.880 --> 01:51:11.920 How did how did how did eah hour come about? 2101 01:51:11.960 --> 01:51:14.840 How did that idea germinate in your mind and come 2102 01:51:14.920 --> 01:51:15.640 into fruition? 2103 01:51:18.800 --> 01:51:23.199 I all right. So in a nutshell, I went through 2104 01:51:23.239 --> 01:51:26.439 a when I left, I wasn't in a great place mentally. 2105 01:51:26.680 --> 01:51:29.000 I didn't know at the time, and I basically went 2106 01:51:29.039 --> 01:51:34.640 through a number of years of tough times for various reasons, 2107 01:51:34.760 --> 01:51:36.720 one of which was like my mental health, and that 2108 01:51:36.840 --> 01:51:39.439 created all sorts of other problems, work problems, It's just 2109 01:51:39.520 --> 01:51:42.319 all sort of things. A transition in my transition from 2110 01:51:42.319 --> 01:51:45.039 the military and the civilian world was not smooth. It's 2111 01:51:45.079 --> 01:51:47.159 not smooth for anyone, but mine was of a long 2112 01:51:47.239 --> 01:51:49.079 time not smooth. It took asis and for a bunch 2113 01:51:49.079 --> 01:51:50.880 of different things. I learned a lot of stuff along 2114 01:51:50.920 --> 01:51:55.760 the way, and I got pretty pretty low mentally, like 2115 01:51:56.159 --> 01:51:58.560 as low as you'd want to get mentally, or as 2116 01:51:58.560 --> 01:52:00.760 you wouldn't you wouldn't want to get ment And I 2117 01:52:00.800 --> 01:52:02.880 didn't want other people to go through the same thing basically. 2118 01:52:03.600 --> 01:52:05.680 But at the time, I've been listening to a very 2119 01:52:05.720 --> 01:52:13.439 popular podcast by mister Rogan, and like you guys, you know, interviewing. 2120 01:52:13.760 --> 01:52:17.199 When you're listening to someone interview people from different walks 2121 01:52:17.239 --> 01:52:20.279 of life and backgrounds and countries and perspectives, and you 2122 01:52:20.439 --> 01:52:22.560 kind of you tend to pick something up from each 2123 01:52:22.600 --> 01:52:25.600 one a little bit of information knowledge, and I think 2124 01:52:25.640 --> 01:52:27.680 it arms you a little bit. It's sort of great, 2125 01:52:28.279 --> 01:52:30.800 the tidbits that can help you unexpected time in life. 2126 01:52:30.960 --> 01:52:33.680 So I basically wanted to communicate what I'd learned. I 2127 01:52:33.800 --> 01:52:38.079 wanted to avoid my old friends and people I don't 2128 01:52:38.119 --> 01:52:40.920 know behind me going through the same situation. I've gone through, 2129 01:52:41.439 --> 01:52:44.720 little things like stuff I learned about the circuit, stuff 2130 01:52:44.720 --> 01:52:48.880 I learned about mental health, stuff I learned about, you know, 2131 01:52:50.920 --> 01:52:54.760 getting by in the civilian world generally. And so I 2132 01:52:54.840 --> 01:52:57.880 started the podcast up for that reason. Basically, chat to people, 2133 01:52:58.840 --> 01:53:02.399 have a conversation with people I'm interested in, and I 2134 01:53:03.279 --> 01:53:06.640 committed to myself. I started that with all I mentioned 2135 01:53:06.640 --> 01:53:09.359 a guy earlier called Jarrett. It was my sniper buddy. 2136 01:53:09.359 --> 01:53:13.760 He did the first ten episodes with me and started 2137 01:53:13.840 --> 01:53:16.279 up with the commitment that if I'm going to interview 2138 01:53:16.319 --> 01:53:19.000 people and they're gonna have these conversations about these subjects 2139 01:53:19.039 --> 01:53:21.359 and be you an open book otherwise, his point was 2140 01:53:21.399 --> 01:53:23.039 doing it, I've got everything's going to be out there 2141 01:53:23.520 --> 01:53:25.640 and be honest about my own experiences and when I 2142 01:53:25.680 --> 01:53:28.640 think about things. And so that's why I did it, 2143 01:53:28.680 --> 01:53:31.359 to try and communicate useful information to people. But I 2144 01:53:31.439 --> 01:53:34.039 was sounded like a preacher. You know, if I walked 2145 01:53:34.079 --> 01:53:37.239 into three power, so I started the podcast in twenty eighteen, 2146 01:53:37.239 --> 01:53:40.119 if I walk into three power Lie three power line, 2147 01:53:40.159 --> 01:53:45.279 three power barracks, for example, and said, hey, guys, if 2148 01:53:45.319 --> 01:53:49.399 you tried meditation, I get beating up, I get kicked 2149 01:53:49.479 --> 01:53:51.880 up back. Then beating up, kicked off can't never come 2150 01:53:51.960 --> 01:53:54.640 back because it's go on about as if you bring 2151 01:53:54.680 --> 01:53:57.199 it up in a conversation, in a in a decent 2152 01:53:57.279 --> 01:54:00.399 contact with someone else who's of a similar background, totally 2153 01:54:00.439 --> 01:54:03.039 fine as an example, Yeah, you know, you know the score. 2154 01:54:04.600 --> 01:54:06.479 That's why try and get information to people that is 2155 01:54:06.560 --> 01:54:09.680 useful basically, but it's got it's gone into something much 2156 01:54:09.760 --> 01:54:13.600 more than that. You know, he's brought us about. So 2157 01:54:13.880 --> 01:54:15.720 you know, one of the reasons I know about team 2158 01:54:15.800 --> 01:54:18.399 houses from one of your patriots, guy called Coke, who's 2159 01:54:18.439 --> 01:54:21.159 a British guy, and he's he's also he's also one 2160 01:54:21.199 --> 01:54:24.680 of my patrons, and and I find that, you know, 2161 01:54:24.680 --> 01:54:26.960 if I understand started my podcast, I wouldn't be just 2162 01:54:27.239 --> 01:54:29.520 introduced duced to you guys and having these conversations with 2163 01:54:29.600 --> 01:54:32.159 you guys and learning about learning about what you do 2164 01:54:32.279 --> 01:54:35.880 and your side of the pond. And also I think 2165 01:54:35.920 --> 01:54:41.640 it's huge value in spending time talking, actually active listening 2166 01:54:41.680 --> 01:54:44.800 to talking, because there's so much that I pro even 2167 01:54:45.279 --> 01:54:47.920 you know, the questions you fired at me today, there's 2168 01:54:47.960 --> 01:54:49.960 so much that it makes me process and I will 2169 01:54:50.000 --> 01:54:52.119 continue thinking about the next couple of days about what 2170 01:54:52.159 --> 01:54:54.640 I think about things and why I think them, you know, 2171 01:54:54.720 --> 01:54:57.279 which I think it's an invaluable thing that most people 2172 01:54:57.319 --> 01:54:59.119 don't get to do these days. How often do we 2173 01:54:59.159 --> 01:55:01.760 get to sit down and talk actually talked to someone 2174 01:55:01.800 --> 01:55:03.880 who listened to someone for an hour or two hours 2175 01:55:03.920 --> 01:55:04.960 at a time. No one does it. 2176 01:55:06.520 --> 01:55:09.199 My my hope is that you know, for a lot 2177 01:55:09.239 --> 01:55:10.960 of the guys, a lot of the veterans out there 2178 01:55:11.039 --> 01:55:13.680 that are able to connect with, you know, a show 2179 01:55:13.800 --> 01:55:16.039 like EH Hour or The Team House, and it sort 2180 01:55:16.079 --> 01:55:18.439 of gives them a little bit of that connectivity, you know, 2181 01:55:18.960 --> 01:55:21.600 they don't feel totally isolated or alone. 2182 01:55:22.840 --> 01:55:24.720 Yeah, yeah, true, that's I mean, that's one of it's 2183 01:55:24.760 --> 01:55:26.479 one of them. I think it's one of the reasons 2184 01:55:26.560 --> 01:55:29.319 that a lot of people struggle, MAXI military struggle when 2185 01:55:29.319 --> 01:55:32.159 they leave, is that what we incorrectly think that we 2186 01:55:32.279 --> 01:55:35.800 are the only person, right one of the very few. 2187 01:55:36.079 --> 01:55:39.359 And the reality is, the unfortunate reality is that most 2188 01:55:39.640 --> 01:55:42.439 or many many people go through it, and especially with 2189 01:55:42.560 --> 01:55:45.399 guys and concerned, we just you know, we're just useless 2190 01:55:45.560 --> 01:55:48.680 talking about feelings, and rightly so in a lot of cases. 2191 01:55:48.720 --> 01:55:52.000 I understand it. But the but the worst thing in 2192 01:55:52.039 --> 01:55:54.119 the world when you're literally is to be isolated, like 2193 01:55:54.159 --> 01:55:57.359 I was talking about, you're isolated. Who's fucking horrific. I 2194 01:55:57.439 --> 01:55:59.920 never want to go through that again. And the real 2195 01:56:00.359 --> 01:56:03.479 is that we've got the buddy buddy system. We've got 2196 01:56:03.560 --> 01:56:07.439 mutual support everywhere. There are people within our networks who 2197 01:56:07.520 --> 01:56:09.359 we know or don't know, who have been through the 2198 01:56:09.399 --> 01:56:11.520 same thing. I can offer advice. They're ahead of us 2199 01:56:11.520 --> 01:56:14.560 on the track, they've been through the ship, you know, 2200 01:56:14.920 --> 01:56:17.640 and they can help you. But if they don't know 2201 01:56:17.680 --> 01:56:24.239 about it, they can't. And even with the distance, you know, 2202 01:56:24.319 --> 01:56:27.920 with the best, with the best, we'll step up for 2203 01:56:27.960 --> 01:56:29.159 each other, whether we know each other. 2204 01:56:31.000 --> 01:56:34.560 I think it's also like very valuable to normalize the 2205 01:56:34.720 --> 01:56:38.479 talk about, you know, the postraumatic stress about you know, 2206 01:56:38.600 --> 01:56:42.279 the challenges of becoming a civilian again. Like it's good 2207 01:56:42.319 --> 01:56:45.640 to normalize that because I think I think most of 2208 01:56:45.760 --> 01:56:48.399 us when we go through that, we think that we. 2209 01:56:48.560 --> 01:56:51.920 Are alone in that struggle, and we wonder what's wrong 2210 01:56:52.000 --> 01:56:54.199 with us? And so what do we do? 2211 01:56:54.680 --> 01:56:56.439 We do what we've been trying to do, which is 2212 01:56:56.520 --> 01:57:01.079 to tighten up the rockstrack, you know, the uh rucksack, 2213 01:57:01.279 --> 01:57:03.279 put our heads down and keep trying to put one 2214 01:57:03.319 --> 01:57:04.079 foot in front of the other. 2215 01:57:04.680 --> 01:57:07.479 And a lot of times that's not the solution. 2216 01:57:08.680 --> 01:57:13.000 No, And it also also invites an attitude that let's say, 2217 01:57:13.039 --> 01:57:15.319 you know, talk about postmatic stress and also and the 2218 01:57:15.399 --> 01:57:18.439 symptoms associated, it also invites an attitude that it's something 2219 01:57:18.479 --> 01:57:21.119 that is chronic and cannot be improved or CD, which 2220 01:57:21.279 --> 01:57:23.439 most people think is the case, and it is absolutely 2221 01:57:23.479 --> 01:57:27.479 not the case. Right, there's a few people again to 2222 01:57:27.560 --> 01:57:29.560 the podcast, a few people I've been very lucky to 2223 01:57:29.760 --> 01:57:31.359 speak to, and one of them is an American guy, 2224 01:57:32.039 --> 01:57:35.199 a two American guys, actually one guy called doctor Mark Gordon. 2225 01:57:36.479 --> 01:57:37.880 I don't know if you've heard of him, but I 2226 01:57:37.960 --> 01:57:39.800 know he's working with a few of your Special Forces 2227 01:57:39.840 --> 01:57:44.520 units are there, and he is basically one of the 2228 01:57:45.039 --> 01:57:50.560 world leading researcher on on newer end of chronology, so 2229 01:57:50.640 --> 01:57:55.479 brain hormones adjusting newer end of chronology to combat the 2230 01:57:55.520 --> 01:58:00.680 symptoms of PTSD. So we're right now, all the main 2231 01:58:00.800 --> 01:58:04.319 focus on reducing symptoms of PTSD, in preventing PTSD is 2232 01:58:04.359 --> 01:58:08.159 all on psychology and the sort of the physical side 2233 01:58:08.199 --> 01:58:10.680 of it. The physiological side of it's missed. So what 2234 01:58:11.359 --> 01:58:14.279 Mark has found is that so let's talk about preparing, 2235 01:58:14.840 --> 01:58:19.640 let's talk about reducing the likelihood of developing PTSD. So 2236 01:58:19.640 --> 01:58:22.720 what Mark, what Mark does with a bunch of s 2237 01:58:22.840 --> 01:58:25.199 F units in the USA, and I know he's been 2238 01:58:25.399 --> 01:58:30.800 engaged with cutle of SF units back here, is creatively 2239 01:58:31.960 --> 01:58:38.199 supplementing guys and girls as it literally supplements which produce 2240 01:58:39.239 --> 01:58:46.880 certain brain hormones which are susceptible to getting drastically impacted 2241 01:58:47.079 --> 01:58:50.880 in like blast injuries, not blasting, but in blast in 2242 01:58:51.319 --> 01:58:55.560 repeated trauma, repeated battles. So that layer upon there, so 2243 01:58:56.800 --> 01:59:00.239 s F units SF guys operators who are doing a 2244 01:59:00.279 --> 01:59:03.960 lot of work. He ministers these hormones which are naturally 2245 01:59:04.000 --> 01:59:06.319 got them in your body anyway, so when they do 2246 01:59:06.479 --> 01:59:09.439 go into a contact, go into an extreme situation and 2247 01:59:09.520 --> 01:59:11.920 come out and survive the other side, get them back 2248 01:59:12.000 --> 01:59:15.520 in checks the baseline for the hormones bumps up again 2249 01:59:15.560 --> 01:59:22.239 what's what's what is deficient? And then it basically drastically 2250 01:59:22.279 --> 01:59:25.359 produces his likelihood of developing post from It's amazing, Yeah, 2251 01:59:26.119 --> 01:59:29.359 like incredible because because it just you, you've got the 2252 01:59:29.439 --> 01:59:32.800 resiliency you can build in people like that just through 2253 01:59:32.880 --> 01:59:37.439 training and your rigorous training and physical and mental and 2254 01:59:37.560 --> 01:59:40.520 then this additional element, the physicological element, is incredible, and 2255 01:59:40.600 --> 01:59:43.359 you can do the same with treatment of PDSD. So 2256 01:59:44.199 --> 01:59:48.239 there's a there's an actually it's an amazing American documentary 2257 01:59:48.439 --> 01:59:53.560 film called I think it's called Quiet Explosions. Mark Gordon 2258 01:59:53.600 --> 01:59:55.640 features in it. There's a there's green beret features in it, 2259 01:59:55.680 --> 01:59:57.680 as a US Navy lady features in it, and an 2260 01:59:57.680 --> 02:00:02.199 American football player, and all these people exhibit the symptoms 2261 02:00:02.199 --> 02:00:06.560 of PTSD and they've all basically got traumatic brain injuries. Now, 2262 02:00:06.600 --> 02:00:08.760 the interesting thing is that three of them, so there's 2263 02:00:08.760 --> 02:00:10.960 four of them, three of them have got traumatic brain 2264 02:00:11.000 --> 02:00:16.039 injuries from blast or concussion. So obviously the American football player, 2265 02:00:17.079 --> 02:00:19.640 you've got the you've got the Green Beret who was 2266 02:00:19.680 --> 02:00:25.439 basically getting his head blowing out by preaching preaching charters. 2267 02:00:26.239 --> 02:00:31.359 The Navy lady has got the same symptoms. She's got 2268 02:00:31.399 --> 02:00:35.479 a qut PTSD, but she has never been around weapons systems, 2269 02:00:35.560 --> 02:00:38.199 She's never been a blast anything of this. The Navy 2270 02:00:38.279 --> 02:00:41.479 lady was raped and she was raided on the service vessel, 2271 02:00:41.960 --> 02:00:44.640 but the trauma of the rape produced exactly the same 2272 02:00:44.720 --> 02:00:48.600 symptoms and traumatic brain injuries everyone else. Now these people 2273 02:00:48.600 --> 02:00:55.720 have been treated with again supplementation, new endocrinology, neuroendo chronological supplementation, 2274 02:00:56.439 --> 02:00:59.119 checking which hormers are deficient, bumping them up and then 2275 02:00:59.199 --> 02:01:02.800 seeing which, yes, the symptoms remain after that based on 2276 02:01:02.920 --> 02:01:07.039 the physiological side, and then implement the psychological treatment if 2277 02:01:07.159 --> 02:01:09.720 needs be so because after this point it's kind of 2278 02:01:09.760 --> 02:01:14.640 like this physiological side has been completely ignored intentially, so 2279 02:01:15.800 --> 02:01:17.560 how do you get into that or the PTSD. So 2280 02:01:17.600 --> 02:01:18.880 a point on that is, you know, there is this 2281 02:01:20.600 --> 02:01:23.840 I don't know about over there, but here there is 2282 02:01:23.920 --> 02:01:29.119 a definite some So some guys and girls who have PTSD, 2283 02:01:29.880 --> 02:01:32.119 they can they can sort of fall victim to the 2284 02:01:32.760 --> 02:01:35.560 victim mentality and kind of be their own barrier to 2285 02:01:35.840 --> 02:01:40.720 improve it, or they can misunderstand that it doesn't it's 2286 02:01:40.760 --> 02:01:43.399 not necessarily a chronic condition. I think that's changing slowly, 2287 02:01:43.439 --> 02:01:45.319 but it needs to be much much so. 2288 02:01:45.600 --> 02:01:48.680 You said the doctor I took this notes on my phone. 2289 02:01:48.880 --> 02:01:51.359 You said that the documentary was called Quiet Explosions. 2290 02:01:51.560 --> 02:01:53.039 I think it's Quiet Explosions. Yeah. 2291 02:01:53.039 --> 02:01:54.640 And the doctor's name is Mark gold. 2292 02:01:55.520 --> 02:01:59.600 Mark Gordon Gordon, Okay, yeah, Mark Gordon. 2293 02:02:00.079 --> 02:02:02.079 Do we have questions for you? 2294 02:02:02.319 --> 02:02:02.520 We do. 2295 02:02:06.840 --> 02:02:09.279 Hugh stated that he was beat in training. Uh oh, 2296 02:02:09.439 --> 02:02:12.680 thank you very much. Showy one two three four all 2297 02:02:12.720 --> 02:02:14.279 wheel drive to AWD two. 2298 02:02:14.800 --> 02:02:15.279 H thank you. 2299 02:02:15.760 --> 02:02:15.880 Uh. 2300 02:02:16.039 --> 02:02:19.479 Hughes stated he was beat beaten in training, unit life 2301 02:02:19.520 --> 02:02:21.319 and approves for discipline. 2302 02:02:21.600 --> 02:02:23.760 Does this happen in the Rangers? Green Berets is, so, 2303 02:02:23.920 --> 02:02:24.760 do you approve. 2304 02:02:29.159 --> 02:02:33.119 In ranger indoctrination? There may have been some physical correction 2305 02:02:33.399 --> 02:02:38.880 issued that may that may have happened. It's not common, 2306 02:02:38.920 --> 02:02:41.159 Like corporal punishment isn't common. I don't want to give 2307 02:02:41.159 --> 02:02:44.600 anyone that impression that like it's a normal thing and 2308 02:02:44.720 --> 02:02:48.119 special forces know, I mean, what you'll find like is 2309 02:02:48.159 --> 02:02:50.560 if like two guys are really butting heads and they 2310 02:02:50.640 --> 02:02:52.439 might decide to take it to the woodline, so. 2311 02:02:53.119 --> 02:02:53.840 Call thunder down. 2312 02:02:54.159 --> 02:02:56.399 Yeah, but that's a little bit different than like, you know, 2313 02:02:56.880 --> 02:02:59.880 a squad leader taking a private walled wall slim and 2314 02:03:00.039 --> 02:03:01.800 in a wall lockers, you know that kind of thing 2315 02:03:02.239 --> 02:03:04.119 that I think that's mostly a thing of the past. 2316 02:03:04.359 --> 02:03:04.520 Yeah. 2317 02:03:05.439 --> 02:03:07.640 Yeah, when I was in Marine boot camp, it was 2318 02:03:07.800 --> 02:03:14.159 not unheard of. But this is back in eighty nine. 2319 02:03:14.960 --> 02:03:19.239 But it was not uncommon for a drill instructor too, 2320 02:03:20.359 --> 02:03:23.399 like maybe do a little wall the wall if they 2321 02:03:23.439 --> 02:03:24.600 felt it was necessary. 2322 02:03:25.479 --> 02:03:27.520 Desperate times, desperate measures. 2323 02:03:28.439 --> 02:03:33.399 Since then, I haven't really seen it, like you know, 2324 02:03:33.520 --> 02:03:35.800 you have you have you have like the hazing or 2325 02:03:35.880 --> 02:03:38.840 the scuffing up, like they'll they'll scuff up the privates 2326 02:03:38.840 --> 02:03:42.000 and range of battalion or they did, and this again 2327 02:03:42.039 --> 02:03:45.520 this ninety seven. It might be different now, but they 2328 02:03:45.560 --> 02:03:52.279 would definitely, you know, find fun and sweaty activities for uh, 2329 02:03:52.920 --> 02:03:56.960 for for junior enlisted who maybe lost their firing pin 2330 02:03:57.079 --> 02:04:04.920 or whatever. But yeah, soly, thank you very much. There 2331 02:04:04.960 --> 02:04:07.760 are serving female officers in the pairs. How much fitter 2332 02:04:08.239 --> 02:04:11.359 do they have to be than the soldiers. Is fitness 2333 02:04:11.439 --> 02:04:14.199 for the pair of officers comparable to sas officers? 2334 02:04:17.479 --> 02:04:24.960 Good question, No, the fitness levels are different. So so 2335 02:04:25.239 --> 02:04:28.840 let's focus on the females a minute. The females that 2336 02:04:28.840 --> 02:04:32.680 are in the powers that they've only they've only quite 2337 02:04:32.720 --> 02:04:36.800 recently they've they've got there, but they do. Those females 2338 02:04:36.800 --> 02:04:41.640 will do the same selection, the same physical selection process 2339 02:04:42.399 --> 02:04:47.640 as their male officer counterparts, but that selection process is 2340 02:04:47.680 --> 02:04:51.560 slightly different to as enlisted selection processes is slight differences, 2341 02:04:51.800 --> 02:04:53.079 but they do the same as the male so that 2342 02:04:53.159 --> 02:04:57.119 the fitness is the same. And then officer fitness levels 2343 02:04:57.119 --> 02:05:02.119 comparable to SAS officer no different again I'm generalizing here, 2344 02:05:02.600 --> 02:05:07.880 but different because the SAS selection fitness levels are so 2345 02:05:08.000 --> 02:05:12.520 much higher requirement than what they are with the with 2346 02:05:12.640 --> 02:05:16.760 the powers, I say, physical, so much higher. The biggest 2347 02:05:16.800 --> 02:05:20.720 barrier to get into SF we hear special forces of 2348 02:05:20.720 --> 02:05:24.279 your selection wise is you know you liked to getting injured. 2349 02:05:24.399 --> 02:05:28.640 It's almost like you, yeah, you like to get an injured. 2350 02:05:28.640 --> 02:05:30.479 You can get to it. You get to a point 2351 02:05:30.520 --> 02:05:33.239 where you only need to be so fit to pass 2352 02:05:33.279 --> 02:05:36.119 all the selection tests, but your body needs to be 2353 02:05:36.199 --> 02:05:40.399 literally strong enough not get hammered and develop a stress 2354 02:05:40.479 --> 02:05:44.520 fracture or roll an ankle or break a bone. You know. 2355 02:05:46.159 --> 02:05:48.880 But no, they're different, not they're not comparable officer in 2356 02:05:49.000 --> 02:05:50.600 the powers and they're not far apart. 2357 02:05:50.960 --> 02:05:56.520 They're not they're not equal, solely, thank you very much. 2358 02:05:57.399 --> 02:06:03.520 What sorry, sorry, I have something that popping out. Okay, 2359 02:06:04.199 --> 02:06:06.319 how good were the enemy and the g Y? Did 2360 02:06:06.359 --> 02:06:09.880 they have units comparable the U k U US special 2361 02:06:09.960 --> 02:06:10.920 forces in infantry? 2362 02:06:14.079 --> 02:06:16.119 How good were the enemy in what? Sorry? 2363 02:06:16.279 --> 02:06:17.880 In the g Y in the Global War on tur 2364 02:06:18.039 --> 02:06:19.319 and Iraq? After sorry? 2365 02:06:20.680 --> 02:06:28.319 Oh, how good were the enemy? Uh? Relative to what? 2366 02:06:28.479 --> 02:06:31.199 It dependent on where you were, depending on where you 2367 02:06:31.279 --> 02:06:34.359 were and what time you served. I think you know 2368 02:06:34.439 --> 02:06:39.279 where you were and went. You compare one of them 2369 02:06:39.399 --> 02:06:43.640 to if you compared individual like Taliban fighter for example, 2370 02:06:44.039 --> 02:06:48.800 to an individual British soldier, then not comparable or in 2371 02:06:48.920 --> 02:06:52.479 terms of professional soldier and skills, there's no comparison. We 2372 02:06:52.720 --> 02:06:56.319 had some tails above them. The reason that they were 2373 02:06:56.359 --> 02:07:00.119 so challenging to fight is because you were fighting them 2374 02:07:00.159 --> 02:07:02.600 on the wrong tur And again I alluded to some 2375 02:07:02.720 --> 02:07:04.199 of the restrictions that we had in as earlier we 2376 02:07:04.279 --> 02:07:06.399 had to we were much heavier to move around. 2377 02:07:07.760 --> 02:07:12.600 And uh, and. 2378 02:07:14.359 --> 02:07:16.880 Yeah, they were just more they were mainly they're more agile. 2379 02:07:17.119 --> 02:07:19.640 They new the twin and they weren't wearing uniforms, they 2380 02:07:19.680 --> 02:07:22.720 weren't easily identifiable, and they also knew they could played 2381 02:07:22.760 --> 02:07:26.920 a long game where we were playing the short game. Cunning, 2382 02:07:27.159 --> 02:07:30.239 very very very cunning fighters. That was that was in 2383 02:07:30.920 --> 02:07:33.760 Afghanistan anyway, And a lot of the time were even 2384 02:07:33.760 --> 02:07:35.720 fight in Afghanist You know we killed we killed a 2385 02:07:35.760 --> 02:07:37.800 couple of people one time when they were they were Pakistanis. 2386 02:07:38.319 --> 02:07:42.119 They were there fight for Taliman. Yeah, just different different place. 2387 02:07:43.840 --> 02:07:45.800 And the second part of that, did they have units 2388 02:07:45.840 --> 02:07:47.920 comparable to the uk U S S F and and 2389 02:07:48.000 --> 02:07:50.359 three And it's no, they didn't really have units. 2390 02:07:50.560 --> 02:07:56.199 They just had a bunch of guys that would come together. Sully, 2391 02:07:56.239 --> 02:07:59.600 Thank you much. How good were your military leaders? Did 2392 02:07:59.680 --> 02:08:03.079 you have did you or have you? 2393 02:08:03.800 --> 02:08:04.000 Ah? 2394 02:08:04.640 --> 02:08:07.399 Did you have your versions of Rammel? I guess. 2395 02:08:09.600 --> 02:08:12.039 Well when I was saying yeah, I think I think 2396 02:08:12.479 --> 02:08:18.119 I mentioned a guy called Stuart Tootle earlier and he's 2397 02:08:18.199 --> 02:08:22.279 quite famous over here. I say famous relatively speaking. And 2398 02:08:22.439 --> 02:08:27.079 there's another guy called Tim Well, Colonel Tim. I can't 2399 02:08:27.079 --> 02:08:30.319 remember his surname, so he's not he's relatively famous. Tim 2400 02:08:30.720 --> 02:08:33.600 Tim gave a famous speech and the eve of the 2401 02:08:33.640 --> 02:08:37.840 Iraq invasion, allegedly it was Bush had it up on 2402 02:08:37.880 --> 02:08:40.640 his wall as in your present Bush added up on 2403 02:08:40.720 --> 02:08:44.560 his wall in the White House for some time. But uh, 2404 02:08:45.279 --> 02:08:50.079 Tootle I think the Tootle was he was one of 2405 02:08:50.119 --> 02:08:54.319 those commanders who, outside of an operation grown you you 2406 02:08:54.359 --> 02:08:59.880 would strike he was average, just another officer. And if 2407 02:09:00.079 --> 02:09:01.680 we had another office at the same time, it was 2408 02:09:01.840 --> 02:09:05.319 pretty much quite disliked to his junior to Tootle. But 2409 02:09:05.880 --> 02:09:08.880 you get when operations and missions like this happen, exceptional 2410 02:09:08.960 --> 02:09:12.000 things go on, you get unexpectedly, you get these like 2411 02:09:12.199 --> 02:09:16.600 heroes emerged from from from the group of whatever, from 2412 02:09:16.640 --> 02:09:20.600 the organization and the unexpected to become the perfect person 2413 02:09:21.520 --> 02:09:25.279 at the perfect time for the perfect operation. And Tootles 2414 02:09:25.359 --> 02:09:29.560 that for that time. And interestingly with Tootle, his his 2415 02:09:30.039 --> 02:09:34.880 his regimental sergeant major, he's like right hand Maham was 2416 02:09:35.000 --> 02:09:38.239 also not liked well too. It was like that his 2417 02:09:38.439 --> 02:09:41.159 RSM was not liked all before thatand and six tour 2418 02:09:41.279 --> 02:09:44.399 not like as in despised. However, the pair of them 2419 02:09:44.439 --> 02:09:48.479 together on that tour, they were perfect. The personalities were perfect. 2420 02:09:48.520 --> 02:09:52.479 The way Tootle commanded was perfect, The way the RSM 2421 02:09:52.720 --> 02:09:55.479 was was just perfect. What was going on? Like anyone else, 2422 02:09:55.520 --> 02:09:56.960 think it had been very different Ketle the fish, we 2423 02:09:56.960 --> 02:09:59.720 would have more casualties, more deaths, we would have achieve 2424 02:09:59.760 --> 02:10:01.680 what we did but they were perfect. So two lights 2425 02:10:01.880 --> 02:10:05.720 on that. Yeah, he was our rommel Sally. 2426 02:10:05.760 --> 02:10:08.000 Thank you match. Did you guys ever refuse an order 2427 02:10:08.079 --> 02:10:11.239 during combat or ever hear this? H said he was. 2428 02:10:12.079 --> 02:10:15.399 Hugh said he was refused to shoot an enemy and 2429 02:10:15.640 --> 02:10:16.840 argue with his commander over this. 2430 02:10:19.119 --> 02:10:21.560 Uh yeah, that's not Yeah, so I didn't refuse to 2431 02:10:21.560 --> 02:10:24.520 shoot an enemy. I would not maybe not have done that. 2432 02:10:24.760 --> 02:10:31.680 So the situation, that's situation Sol's referring to is we 2433 02:10:31.800 --> 02:10:35.640 were on high ground. It was in Afghanistan. My team 2434 02:10:35.720 --> 02:10:38.640 was on high ground. We were we were extracting. We 2435 02:10:38.760 --> 02:10:40.960 were with another team actually that was a joint that 2436 02:10:41.079 --> 02:10:43.560 was a joint mission with the US unit actually, and 2437 02:10:43.680 --> 02:10:46.039 we were extracting. We went very helicopters to come in 2438 02:10:46.359 --> 02:10:50.399 and I thought I spotted it, So maybe eight hundred 2439 02:10:50.399 --> 02:10:52.479 meters away, nine meters away, I thought I spotted, but 2440 02:10:52.560 --> 02:10:55.319 we would call a dicker. I thought I spotted a 2441 02:10:57.079 --> 02:11:01.640 local or remember the Taliban given signals the mirror, basically 2442 02:11:01.720 --> 02:11:04.039 signaling where we were or something's gone on to other 2443 02:11:04.520 --> 02:11:09.439 to the Talleman, other people. I wasn't a hundred percent. 2444 02:11:11.640 --> 02:11:14.880 I was pretty sure he was signaling this was a person, 2445 02:11:15.359 --> 02:11:17.039 you know, a fighting age male, but on the younger 2446 02:11:17.199 --> 02:11:20.039 on the younger side, i'd say maybe twelve thirteen years old. 2447 02:11:20.920 --> 02:11:23.920 And I reported this because I was there, and I reported. 2448 02:11:24.000 --> 02:11:26.640 I say reported back. I was talking because the team 2449 02:11:26.680 --> 02:11:28.239 were behind me. I was talking it back. And the 2450 02:11:29.479 --> 02:11:31.800 commander of the other team that was where it wasn't 2451 02:11:31.800 --> 02:11:33.560 a sniper team. The other team that was that was 2452 02:11:33.800 --> 02:11:37.760 with us, tok to shoot topally, to shoot the guy 2453 02:11:37.800 --> 02:11:40.840 and shoot the king. I should say, well, I said, no, 2454 02:11:41.880 --> 02:11:43.760 he was. He was senior to me, but he wasn't 2455 02:11:43.760 --> 02:11:47.399 my director sharing the command. And I said, that's the situation, 2456 02:11:48.279 --> 02:11:52.600 Soley's referring to. I said no to that. I wasn't 2457 02:11:52.600 --> 02:11:55.399 a hundred percent you know. And but I've killed him 2458 02:11:55.439 --> 02:11:57.960 got away with it. Yeah, that's the right thing to do. No, 2459 02:11:58.399 --> 02:11:59.920 would I be sitting here you were talking about with 2460 02:12:00.399 --> 02:12:03.279 Dave at the start. I would absolutely something I'd absolutely regret. 2461 02:12:03.359 --> 02:12:05.640 So it's the wrong. It was the wrong. It would 2462 02:12:05.640 --> 02:12:08.720 have been the wrong decision to do it. No question 2463 02:12:09.239 --> 02:12:12.920 was did I ever see anyone else doing anything of that? No, 2464 02:12:13.239 --> 02:12:15.319 I didn't. I didn't see anyone else doing anything like that. 2465 02:12:15.520 --> 02:12:19.680 So refuse refusing in order to shoot someone, it's pretty rare. 2466 02:12:19.920 --> 02:12:24.000 It's pretty rare to receive an order to shoot someone like, yeah, 2467 02:12:24.279 --> 02:12:27.600 very I've been told it once and I've given the 2468 02:12:27.760 --> 02:12:28.199 order once. 2469 02:12:28.560 --> 02:12:28.800 Yeah. 2470 02:12:30.600 --> 02:12:33.840 Apart from that, it's mostly reactive, like see the enemy 2471 02:12:33.840 --> 02:12:36.479 shooting dead within the rules of engagement. It's pretty rare. 2472 02:12:36.560 --> 02:12:39.159 So I didn't see that off off off of anyone else. 2473 02:12:40.520 --> 02:12:43.720 Thanks, and if you guys hear our church just started upstairs, 2474 02:12:43.800 --> 02:12:48.079 So we apologize for any background noise, but dance. 2475 02:12:47.880 --> 02:12:52.119 Along with a tune if you know it silly? Thank you? 2476 02:12:52.840 --> 02:12:53.000 Was it? 2477 02:12:53.199 --> 02:12:55.239 Ro Oe? Giving to your units? Always fair? 2478 02:12:56.479 --> 02:13:00.279 Hughes said units were using surveillance wallounds to which han't 2479 02:13:00.319 --> 02:13:01.680 their own during firefights. 2480 02:13:04.520 --> 02:13:07.199 Are we always fair? Oh that's a matter of perspective. 2481 02:13:08.000 --> 02:13:13.439 I think fair is an interesting word. No, I think 2482 02:13:13.760 --> 02:13:18.520 I think the IRA were always almost always. It was 2483 02:13:18.600 --> 02:13:23.000 too much control and there was too much risk, almost always. 2484 02:13:23.079 --> 02:13:25.479 And I say that because for most of the time 2485 02:13:25.760 --> 02:13:28.000 when I was in Afghanistan on my first tour, we 2486 02:13:28.079 --> 02:13:34.319 were operating on Fortune nine Alpha, which we would you 2487 02:13:34.800 --> 02:13:38.760 sort of. Coloaqu really described that as war fighting. RAI 2488 02:13:39.680 --> 02:13:43.479 seeing enemy, armed enemy, you can kill them. I'm really 2489 02:13:43.840 --> 02:13:45.960 generalizing you. So someone's going to pull me apart for 2490 02:13:46.319 --> 02:13:49.199 let's say I'm more criminal, I haven't got the fortune 2491 02:13:49.199 --> 02:13:50.880 ie Alpha in front of me. But it was kind 2492 02:13:50.920 --> 02:13:53.640 of the most relaxed version. It was really rare for 2493 02:13:53.720 --> 02:13:55.199 that to be issued. I was on it for most 2494 02:13:55.199 --> 02:13:57.760 of the time in Afghanistan. In the places I was at, 2495 02:13:57.800 --> 02:14:02.960 the units were to answer the question. No. For the 2496 02:14:03.039 --> 02:14:05.359 most part, they're not fair. They really hamper us in 2497 02:14:05.439 --> 02:14:07.399 terms of what we can and can't do. There were 2498 02:14:07.840 --> 02:14:10.000 some For most of the most of the guys and 2499 02:14:10.079 --> 02:14:12.640 girls in Afghanistan on the second and third tour, most 2500 02:14:12.680 --> 02:14:15.000 of them were on a rule of engagement said that 2501 02:14:16.479 --> 02:14:19.159 even if you saw a Taliman fighter with a weapon 2502 02:14:19.159 --> 02:14:21.840 in his hand, clearly identified as a Talaman fighter with 2503 02:14:21.960 --> 02:14:23.720 a weapon in his hand, you wouldn't be able to 2504 02:14:23.760 --> 02:14:25.920 shoot him. You were not allowed to do it. You 2505 02:14:26.000 --> 02:14:27.960 had to wait till that weapon was point at you. 2506 02:14:28.640 --> 02:14:30.479 Then you had to go through a certain procedure before 2507 02:14:30.479 --> 02:14:33.720 he couldn't pull the trigger on him, which is just crazy. 2508 02:14:33.960 --> 02:14:37.840 It's great and I understand I understand the reasons for 2509 02:14:38.000 --> 02:14:41.039 having the rows like this, but that it was a 2510 02:14:41.119 --> 02:14:44.279 legacy follower or carryover from Northern Ireland Card Alpha for 2511 02:14:44.399 --> 02:14:46.399 us as we call that rule of engagements from Lord Island. 2512 02:14:46.439 --> 02:14:48.680 So no, they weren't fair. But the problem is you've 2513 02:14:48.680 --> 02:14:51.199 got to mitigate for idiots. You got to mitigate for 2514 02:14:51.279 --> 02:14:53.760 people who are trigger happy, and you've got to mitigate 2515 02:14:53.840 --> 02:14:56.039 for people who don't understand the rules engagement or don't 2516 02:14:56.079 --> 02:14:58.760 have the brain process in power to be able to 2517 02:14:58.800 --> 02:15:00.840 quickly think through those engaged whether they're right or wrong, 2518 02:15:00.960 --> 02:15:04.079 because they engage themselves. If they don't know when, they 2519 02:15:04.159 --> 02:15:08.199 kind of can't pull the trigger. But it is frustrating 2520 02:15:08.239 --> 02:15:10.319 for those for the majority of us who were quite 2521 02:15:10.399 --> 02:15:11.119 capable of doing it. 2522 02:15:12.880 --> 02:15:15.000 Yeah, I know, because we've talked to like j Tax 2523 02:15:15.039 --> 02:15:18.560 who basically had to go through you know, a fifteen 2524 02:15:18.600 --> 02:15:19.760 page document. 2525 02:15:19.399 --> 02:15:22.279 To call in, you know, to call in an air strike. 2526 02:15:22.359 --> 02:15:24.319 Oh, you probably had to go through fifteen layers of 2527 02:15:24.439 --> 02:15:25.680 command at one point. 2528 02:15:25.840 --> 02:15:29.840 Yeah, So I thank you. Do you think you or 2529 02:15:29.880 --> 02:15:33.439 your colleagues are owed anything for you or their service? 2530 02:15:35.920 --> 02:15:40.279 No, definitely, not none at all owed anything. No, it's 2531 02:15:40.359 --> 02:15:43.159 nice to get some gratitude sometimes mainly it's nice, not 2532 02:15:43.439 --> 02:15:47.159 it's nice to not get it's nice to not get 2533 02:15:47.239 --> 02:15:50.239 it completely ignored. When we returned from Afghanistan and Thaven 2534 02:15:50.279 --> 02:15:53.840 and six there was there was, there was nothing, it was. 2535 02:15:54.079 --> 02:15:57.279 We made it quite a difficult reintegration. So on late 2536 02:15:57.600 --> 02:16:01.119 later tools when it was kind of known what AFGAN 2537 02:16:01.239 --> 02:16:02.920 was like. At that point, a unit would come back 2538 02:16:03.359 --> 02:16:06.439 from being OCS for six months. They'll come back and 2539 02:16:06.479 --> 02:16:09.960 they'd have a big service, they get presented the key 2540 02:16:10.000 --> 02:16:13.000 to the city and all of these formalities and the recognition. 2541 02:16:13.399 --> 02:16:14.840 And when we come back, we didn't have any of that. 2542 02:16:14.880 --> 02:16:16.479 And the ash was actually very different from me again 2543 02:16:16.520 --> 02:16:19.439 because I came back late later than everyone else. Three 2544 02:16:19.479 --> 02:16:21.640 parad already been back. I was stuck in my Sicala. 2545 02:16:21.720 --> 02:16:23.840 Came back a few weeks later and I got picked 2546 02:16:23.880 --> 02:16:28.279 up by a minibus in a commercial airport because we 2547 02:16:28.359 --> 02:16:31.319 came back in on. So no, I don't think we 2548 02:16:31.399 --> 02:16:34.120 rode anything at all, and I think it's a mistake. 2549 02:16:34.159 --> 02:16:36.520 I think we owed anything. Should Does that mean that 2550 02:16:37.479 --> 02:16:46.040 the public shouldn't feel obligated to obligated to be demonstrating gratitude. 2551 02:16:46.159 --> 02:16:49.079 Maybe yeah, I think the public should be obligated to 2552 02:16:49.120 --> 02:16:52.200 do it, or even consider it not demonstrated. But actually think, okay, 2553 02:16:52.239 --> 02:16:54.440 if people do a job and they are they are 2554 02:16:54.680 --> 02:16:59.120 worthy of our admiration. You know, regardless of what you 2555 02:16:59.200 --> 02:17:01.799 think of regardless of what you think of what the 2556 02:17:01.840 --> 02:17:04.639 military is doing in X, y's at different place, being 2557 02:17:04.680 --> 02:17:07.399 at Israel, be that Ukraine and the moment, be at sea, 2558 02:17:07.479 --> 02:17:10.559 be it anywhere else. That's only a small part of it. 2559 02:17:10.639 --> 02:17:13.760 The reality is that without the military, which have a 2560 02:17:13.799 --> 02:17:16.479 country in your military, without your military, then your country 2561 02:17:16.520 --> 02:17:19.120 would not exist and a stronger country would take it 2562 02:17:19.239 --> 02:17:20.360 or when you would not be living in a life 2563 02:17:20.399 --> 02:17:21.319 you live now. Yeah. 2564 02:17:22.159 --> 02:17:25.520 You know here in the US, like we have the VA, 2565 02:17:25.680 --> 02:17:30.159 the Veterans Administration, we have the hospitals who it's it's 2566 02:17:30.639 --> 02:17:34.840 It can be very inefficient, mired and bureaucracy and has 2567 02:17:34.879 --> 02:17:38.360 its own issues, but it is an organization that is 2568 02:17:38.479 --> 02:17:43.239 there for the care and treatment of veterans. I know 2569 02:17:43.360 --> 02:17:45.920 that you guys have your like National health Care, So 2570 02:17:47.079 --> 02:17:49.719 is there anything like that for you guys over there? 2571 02:17:49.799 --> 02:17:52.479 Is there anything that where where you are paid. 2572 02:17:52.280 --> 02:17:55.799 Specific attention to for like post traumatic stress or the 2573 02:17:55.840 --> 02:17:58.000 issues the veterans might might find themselves. 2574 02:17:59.120 --> 02:18:03.559 Yeah, the organizations, government departments that are doing it. They've 2575 02:18:03.559 --> 02:18:06.840 got the OVA, the Office of Veterans Affairs. There's a 2576 02:18:06.840 --> 02:18:11.280 few fledging organist say fledgling fledgling in yeah, they're relatively young, 2577 02:18:11.319 --> 02:18:13.760 but also fledgling, and if they've been around for a while, 2578 02:18:13.799 --> 02:18:18.840 they're not very well advanced. It's not great. Like you said, 2579 02:18:18.840 --> 02:18:21.639 we have the advantage of the National Health Service and 2580 02:18:21.799 --> 02:18:23.159 a few things that are coming in over the last 2581 02:18:24.079 --> 02:18:27.319 five ten years. As you know, as a as a 2582 02:18:27.399 --> 02:18:31.399 veteran here you'll get prioritized. Now, okay, in health services 2583 02:18:31.559 --> 02:18:33.520 you can be you know, you go for your book, 2584 02:18:33.719 --> 02:18:39.680 a doctor's appointment, then you can self identify as a 2585 02:18:39.719 --> 02:18:42.959 veteran if you want, and it can prioritize you. So 2586 02:18:43.120 --> 02:18:46.200 that's good, but it's nothing like you guys have got 2587 02:18:46.239 --> 02:18:53.520 over there. But I think that's a cultural difference mainly mainly, 2588 02:18:53.639 --> 02:18:58.479 but also probably a lack of appetite in spending money 2589 02:18:58.520 --> 02:19:02.840 where there's no tangible and if it for the ruling party, 2590 02:19:03.360 --> 02:19:05.600 you know, I think you could say, hey, do this thing, 2591 02:19:05.639 --> 02:19:07.520 you will convert directly the votes for you. Then they 2592 02:19:07.559 --> 02:19:09.680 don't do it. But in reality they can't. They can't 2593 02:19:09.719 --> 02:19:10.079 predict that. 2594 02:19:10.280 --> 02:19:16.159 The Unfortunately, yeah, sorry r S, thank you so much. 2595 02:19:17.360 --> 02:19:21.799 Sniper is now is out now on all digital platforms. 2596 02:19:22.000 --> 02:19:23.920 So get yourself from Tom Beringer. 2597 02:19:24.920 --> 02:19:30.040 Uh did you ever watch the Tom Barry Yeah, years ago, Joe, 2598 02:19:30.079 --> 02:19:31.520 I think the last time I watched out before I 2599 02:19:31.600 --> 02:19:32.000 joined up. 2600 02:19:32.040 --> 02:19:37.360 Actually, hey, Sniper Sniper ten is out with Chad Michael Collins, 2601 02:19:38.079 --> 02:19:40.479 who's we've had him on the show. We'll have him 2602 02:19:40.520 --> 02:19:42.280 back when Sniper twenty comes out. 2603 02:19:44.600 --> 02:19:45.600 Sally, thank you very much. 2604 02:19:45.959 --> 02:19:48.200 Would you guys be willing to speak with your enemies, 2605 02:19:48.360 --> 02:19:50.639 even those who killed people you knew? 2606 02:19:55.520 --> 02:19:57.559 If he's not been recorded and no one's going to 2607 02:19:57.600 --> 02:20:01.639 be looking for him after, that's a good, good question, 2608 02:20:01.840 --> 02:20:04.280 you know. I've got so I mentioned Nordon Island earlier, 2609 02:20:04.319 --> 02:20:08.879 and that's so that Sully you're talking about is the 2610 02:20:09.280 --> 02:20:14.239 Duwell patron you And I think I've mentioned to him 2611 02:20:14.280 --> 02:20:18.479 before about the potential of interviewing a Northern Ireland like 2612 02:20:18.520 --> 02:20:22.399 a Northern Ireland terrorist reformed terrorist, and he's pointing me 2613 02:20:22.479 --> 02:20:26.280 towards a Northern Irish terrorist who killed a bunch of people, 2614 02:20:26.799 --> 02:20:29.079 and it's especial remorse and you know, wrote to the 2615 02:20:29.120 --> 02:20:33.479 family and apologized. I do know, I think that I've 2616 02:20:33.520 --> 02:20:36.079 got room in me for remorse and regret in terms 2617 02:20:36.079 --> 02:20:38.239 of those kind of things. Now interviewing someone who killed 2618 02:20:38.280 --> 02:20:41.520 them of mine, I don't know, I don't know about that. 2619 02:20:42.079 --> 02:20:45.760 I mean, I don't know about that, probably probably. 2620 02:20:45.399 --> 02:20:52.239 A no, yeah, hard no, yeah, Jack. Do you have 2621 02:20:52.280 --> 02:20:53.000 an opinion on that? 2622 02:20:54.600 --> 02:20:56.840 I mean, if it's somebody who killed somebody I knew, 2623 02:20:56.879 --> 02:20:58.879 I mean, that makes it pretty personal. I mean, I 2624 02:20:58.879 --> 02:21:00.319 don't know if i'd be able to just I will 2625 02:21:00.440 --> 02:21:04.719 overlook that. But but somebody who fought, like, let's say, 2626 02:21:04.799 --> 02:21:07.840 fought in Saddam Hussein's army against US, Yeah, I'd interview 2627 02:21:07.879 --> 02:21:08.120 the guy. 2628 02:21:09.079 --> 02:21:16.520 M yeah, Sally, thank you. When when is ex s 2629 02:21:16.600 --> 02:21:19.239 A S. Ben Griffin next? Coming on both your podcasts? 2630 02:21:19.600 --> 02:21:22.799 He claims the US used his unit to torture civilians. 2631 02:21:24.159 --> 02:21:26.600 You guys, I don't know who that is. 2632 02:21:27.639 --> 02:21:28.719 Is this an inside joke? 2633 02:21:29.959 --> 02:21:34.600 No? No, no, Ben Griffin is your relatively well known 2634 02:21:34.680 --> 02:21:40.959 name over here in in like pacist circles. Ben Ben 2635 02:21:41.120 --> 02:21:43.000 was two PARA and then went to the s A S. 2636 02:21:43.879 --> 02:21:49.360 He co founded the UK arm of Veterans for Peace 2637 02:21:49.440 --> 02:21:52.239 over Here and I think Vetroans for Pieces is starting 2638 02:21:52.280 --> 02:21:55.639 up in America, but he chaired Veterans for Piece over 2639 02:21:55.680 --> 02:21:58.280 You in the UK. Ben is quite well known because 2640 02:21:59.680 --> 02:22:02.239 he's and talk Have you seen when they do speeches 2641 02:22:02.280 --> 02:22:06.280 at the Oxford Union. Yeah, I've seen yeah, yeah, So 2642 02:22:06.399 --> 02:22:10.399 he's going to talk there about problems with our interventionalist 2643 02:22:10.440 --> 02:22:12.639 foreign policy and things like this. But he's been He 2644 02:22:13.000 --> 02:22:18.399 claims that he saw war crimes were committed by the 2645 02:22:18.559 --> 02:22:21.959 Sas when he was serving with them in Baghdad, when 2646 02:22:22.000 --> 02:22:24.280 he was out there with them in whatever it was 2647 02:22:24.680 --> 02:22:30.200 three or four. Maybe I interviewed him twenty eighteen or 2648 02:22:30.239 --> 02:22:35.520 twenty nineteen, back when my views on things are very different. 2649 02:22:35.559 --> 02:22:38.559 Then again, this is the advantages of talking to people 2650 02:22:38.760 --> 02:22:41.959 long form. I think you form opinions much quicker, like 2651 02:22:42.040 --> 02:22:43.600 I probably would have waited till I was seventy or 2652 02:22:43.639 --> 02:22:45.479 eight years old to formed the opinions I old now. 2653 02:22:46.120 --> 02:22:51.000 But in that conversation he he with him, he claimed that, 2654 02:22:52.440 --> 02:22:54.760 and we locked horns on this. He claimed that in 2655 02:22:54.840 --> 02:22:58.040 the in the British military, you could in Afghanistan just 2656 02:22:58.159 --> 02:23:01.200 killed someone, but anyone just go and kill a civilian 2657 02:23:01.239 --> 02:23:02.399 then you get away with it and there'll be no 2658 02:23:02.479 --> 02:23:06.920 reprimand for it, which is absolute nonsense and it's it's 2659 02:23:07.159 --> 02:23:09.959 it's nonsense in any unit. I think there's a there's 2660 02:23:09.959 --> 02:23:12.000 a chain of command of disciplinary proceidure for a reason, 2661 02:23:12.360 --> 02:23:16.159 and we get rules of engagement drilled into us for 2662 02:23:16.200 --> 02:23:17.799 a reason, and we go through all the I don't 2663 02:23:17.799 --> 02:23:20.440 know what here we have the over here we have 2664 02:23:20.600 --> 02:23:24.319 these like virtual training systems where you will be sat 2665 02:23:24.399 --> 02:23:27.079 there in a with a late a weapon but if 2666 02:23:27.120 --> 02:23:30.000 ires lazy as and you'll watch a you know, a 2667 02:23:30.399 --> 02:23:33.479 scenario and fold in front of you really complicated scenario 2668 02:23:33.520 --> 02:23:36.920 and it basically it gives you a scenario where should 2669 02:23:36.959 --> 02:23:38.840 you shoot the person or should you not? Is it 2670 02:23:38.840 --> 02:23:40.760 within our area? If it's not. It's really complex. You 2671 02:23:40.840 --> 02:23:43.440 go through all the mental mathematics in your head you 2672 02:23:43.479 --> 02:23:45.120 got to go through to do it. Where we do 2673 02:23:45.319 --> 02:23:47.360 that to ensure that we don't go killing people, we 2674 02:23:47.360 --> 02:23:51.600 shouldn't go kill him and Ben thought differently or things differently. 2675 02:23:51.840 --> 02:23:53.559 Now it was interesting with Ben Griffin is and I 2676 02:23:53.719 --> 02:23:56.920 highly recommend him as a guest. Actually interesting with Ben 2677 02:23:57.079 --> 02:23:59.440 is He's now no longer a member of Messans for Peace. 2678 02:24:00.680 --> 02:24:05.159 He now relaxes doing a very simple yet rewarding job 2679 02:24:05.799 --> 02:24:07.920 on an island off the course of Scotland. He's still 2680 02:24:08.000 --> 02:24:09.959 very much up for conversations. He's coming back in so 2681 02:24:10.079 --> 02:24:13.159 we can We're going to revisit that conversation. I'm interested 2682 02:24:13.159 --> 02:24:14.360 to go back and listen to see where my own 2683 02:24:14.360 --> 02:24:18.319 opinions has changed. Yeah, that's interesting, guy. 2684 02:24:19.920 --> 02:24:22.440 Sally, thank you much. When will Jack and Dave appear 2685 02:24:22.520 --> 02:24:23.000 on the h. 2686 02:24:23.120 --> 02:24:26.559 R podcast anytime you want? Anytime you want? 2687 02:24:26.719 --> 02:24:28.040 Yeah, whenever you're ready for us. 2688 02:24:30.200 --> 02:24:32.159 Yeah, maybe an in personal I'll come over when we 2689 02:24:32.159 --> 02:24:33.120 can do it even better. 2690 02:24:33.239 --> 02:24:33.920 That'd be amazing. 2691 02:24:34.600 --> 02:24:34.799 Yeah. 2692 02:24:35.719 --> 02:24:37.479 Uh m, Corman, thank you very much. 2693 02:24:37.879 --> 02:24:41.360 How can American soft make it culturally culturally acceptable to 2694 02:24:41.440 --> 02:24:43.639 have a beer fridge like you find chefs? 2695 02:24:46.120 --> 02:24:50.520 Well, what did you guys have beer fridges? 2696 02:24:51.520 --> 02:24:54.399 We are, Well, just generally we have beer fridges. Yeah, 2697 02:24:55.159 --> 02:24:55.959 where are we talking about? 2698 02:24:55.959 --> 02:24:58.520 Specific I'm not sure. I think he's talking about like 2699 02:24:58.600 --> 02:25:00.799 in your unit? You know, does your your platoon have 2700 02:25:00.840 --> 02:25:03.360 a fridge of beers? And I don't want to serious, Yes, 2701 02:25:03.440 --> 02:25:05.120 I don't. I don't want to shock anyone. But there 2702 02:25:05.200 --> 02:25:07.159 are some American units where that's a thing. 2703 02:25:07.760 --> 02:25:14.959 Uh yeah, uh uh did you see anything on the patron? Nothing? 2704 02:25:15.000 --> 02:25:15.280 All right? 2705 02:25:16.040 --> 02:25:16.159 Uh? 2706 02:25:17.200 --> 02:25:20.840 One last thing, because as we were having this conversation, 2707 02:25:20.959 --> 02:25:24.760 it got me thinking, I feel like I recall a 2708 02:25:24.879 --> 02:25:27.200 story about a guy he was either a para or 2709 02:25:27.280 --> 02:25:30.040 a Royal marine that went and joined the Ira. 2710 02:25:31.319 --> 02:25:32.079 I do not know that. 2711 02:25:32.159 --> 02:25:35.680 That doesn't ring any bells. It was like way back 2712 02:25:35.719 --> 02:25:37.799 in the eighties. It was before any of our time. 2713 02:25:39.120 --> 02:25:39.719 No, I don't know that. 2714 02:25:40.239 --> 02:25:43.639 I want Oh yeah, I mean I think that would 2715 02:25:43.680 --> 02:25:47.040 be a fascinating story or a fascinating interview if the 2716 02:25:47.079 --> 02:25:47.840 guy's still around. 2717 02:25:48.600 --> 02:25:51.479 And then we have one. I'm a former two pair 2718 02:25:51.559 --> 02:25:54.639 of bullshit blue on my three pair of gungji green. 2719 02:25:55.200 --> 02:25:57.920 You won't know what I mean. Respect always and thanks 2720 02:25:57.959 --> 02:25:58.600 for your service you. 2721 02:26:00.520 --> 02:26:02.879 Yeah. So the battalions have their different thank you for 2722 02:26:03.399 --> 02:26:09.280 The Italians have their different nicknames and mythical attributes. So 2723 02:26:09.600 --> 02:26:12.600 three para. Apparently we're really grungey, which was really dirty. 2724 02:26:12.680 --> 02:26:15.879 We never wash bothering this. I'll never wash your uniforms, 2725 02:26:15.920 --> 02:26:19.079 never washed ourselves. That's what you're referring to. Two para. 2726 02:26:19.239 --> 02:26:21.680 He's referring to a bunch of the very straight. They 2727 02:26:21.799 --> 02:26:24.120 like their processes. I don't like the thing outside the 2728 02:26:24.159 --> 02:26:26.200 box for him. I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm just riling 2729 02:26:26.239 --> 02:26:33.000 him up. One para. Weird, just odd odd odd people 2730 02:26:33.079 --> 02:26:34.840 do odd things with broomsticks on the weekend when no 2731 02:26:34.879 --> 02:26:35.319 one's looking. 2732 02:26:36.840 --> 02:26:38.680 Where can people go to find ehower? 2733 02:26:40.120 --> 02:26:44.079 The best place is Charliecharlie one dot com, So yeah, 2734 02:26:44.280 --> 02:26:46.799 Charlie Charlie and then oh any dot com is the 2735 02:26:46.840 --> 02:26:48.959 best place to go, or just search for h Ower podcast. 2736 02:26:49.040 --> 02:26:52.159 Do you find it anywhere? Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah, thanks 2737 02:26:52.200 --> 02:26:54.319 for time today, guys. I really enjoyed Yeah, thank you. 2738 02:26:54.479 --> 02:26:57.159 We really enjoyed it too. We really appreciate you coming on. 2739 02:26:57.520 --> 02:26:58.799 Yeah, awesome perspective. 2740 02:27:00.319 --> 02:27:02.840 It's difficult being in the guest seat, I forget. 2741 02:27:04.399 --> 02:27:07.319 I actually find it comforting because I usually have to 2742 02:27:07.440 --> 02:27:11.479 do the interviews. So when when it's someone else's responsibility 2743 02:27:11.559 --> 02:27:13.559 to have the questions and everything, it actually is a 2744 02:27:13.600 --> 02:27:19.120 little relieving I find. But next Friday, we will be 2745 02:27:19.239 --> 02:27:24.159 back with John Kiriaku, former CIA officer. Is he Is 2746 02:27:24.200 --> 02:27:25.280 he coming in studio date? 2747 02:27:25.559 --> 02:27:26.639 No, he's going to be remote. 2748 02:27:26.680 --> 02:27:29.600 Okay, So we will see you guys on Friday, Hugh, 2749 02:27:30.600 --> 02:27:34.520 uh huh uh. Go check out Eyes on our sister 2750 02:27:34.639 --> 02:27:38.079 podcast with Andy Milburn and Jason Lyons. It is on 2751 02:27:38.200 --> 02:27:40.520 its own separate channel now search for it on YouTube. 2752 02:27:40.680 --> 02:27:45.239 There's a link down the description. So we'll see everyone Friday. Hugh, 2753 02:27:45.360 --> 02:27:47.600 thank you so much for spending your evening with us, 2754 02:27:47.719 --> 02:27:49.959 especially for you It's like probably one in the morning 2755 02:27:50.079 --> 02:27:54.959 right now, right, Yeah, I'm not complaining. I appreciate it man, 2756 02:27:55.079 --> 02:27:56.639 Thanks for thanks for making the effort. 2757 02:27:57.319 --> 02:27:59.120 Yes, guys, stay safe, all right. 2758 02:27:59.159 --> 02:28:00.680 We'll see all of you next Friday. 2759 02:28:00.879 --> 02:28:01.040 By