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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two

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<v Speaker 1>of our series about the murders of Burned Gerica and

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<v Speaker 1>Andrea Shirt. Robin, do you want to catch everyone up

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<v Speaker 1>on what we talked about in our previous episode?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this crime took place in British Columbia, Canada in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty three. Burnt Gerica and Andrea Shirt were a

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<v Speaker 2>couple from West Germany who were doing a hitchhiking and

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<v Speaker 2>backpacking trip through Canada, but they missed the return flight

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<v Speaker 2>home and they would be discovered murdered in a remote

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<v Speaker 2>section of British Columbia. They've both been shot to death

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<v Speaker 2>and most of their personal items have been stolen, and

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<v Speaker 2>it would later turn out that Andrea's travelers checks had

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<v Speaker 2>been used at various gas stations located hundreds of kilometers

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<v Speaker 2>south from where the crime took place, so it seemed

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<v Speaker 2>obvious that their killer was responsible and using her travelers checks.

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<v Speaker 2>The case remained unsolved for over five years, but then

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<v Speaker 2>they looked at a suspect named Andy Rose, who had

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<v Speaker 2>been living in that region of British Columbia in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty three. Pretty much the only evidence against him was

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<v Speaker 2>the testimony of a woman named Madonna Kelly, who had

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<v Speaker 2>been friends with Andy and BC back then, and claimed

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<v Speaker 2>that he had shown up at her trailer one night,

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<v Speaker 2>howling at the moon, covered in blood, claiming that he

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<v Speaker 2>had killed a couple. But of course, there was no

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<v Speaker 2>other corroborating evidence to support her story, and even though

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<v Speaker 2>the cops recorded a phone call between Madonna and Andy,

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<v Speaker 2>he never revealed anything incriminating or confessed to the crime.

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<v Speaker 2>But in spite of this, he still got arrested, even

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<v Speaker 2>though he insisted that back then he was so poverty

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<v Speaker 2>stricken that he didn't even own a car, so how

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<v Speaker 2>can he have driven one hundred kilometers south in order

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<v Speaker 2>to be able to use those travelers checks? But in

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<v Speaker 2>spite of this, he was found guilty at trial, he

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<v Speaker 2>got his conviction overturned because the judge had given improper

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<v Speaker 2>instructions to the jury, but he was found guilty a

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<v Speaker 2>second time in nineteen ninety five. By this point, they

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<v Speaker 2>finally started doing forensic testing. They had found a pair

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<v Speaker 2>of bloody genes near the murder scene inside a waste

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<v Speaker 2>basket and tested the blood, and even though it matched

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<v Speaker 2>the two victims, none of the blood or the physical

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<v Speaker 2>evidence on the genes belonged to Andy. They're planning to

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<v Speaker 2>take on a trial again, but of course this was

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<v Speaker 2>a big setback for the authorities, so they tried to

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<v Speaker 2>entrap Andy and is what is known in Canada as

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<v Speaker 2>the Mister Big sting operation, which is actually illegal in

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<v Speaker 2>the United States because it is technically entrapment where a

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<v Speaker 2>bunch of undercover cops will pose as criminals and offer

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<v Speaker 2>things to their suspect in hopes of recording them making

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<v Speaker 2>a full confession of the crime. And that's exactly what

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<v Speaker 2>they did with Andy. They were saying, saying that we

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<v Speaker 2>will make your problem go away. We will get rid

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<v Speaker 2>of the evidence to ensure you don't have to go

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<v Speaker 2>on trial a third time, just as long as you

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<v Speaker 2>tell us everything about yourself and confess to the murder.

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<v Speaker 2>And Andy pretty much just gave our sarcastic yeah, sure

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<v Speaker 2>I did it, but then later recanted it and said

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<v Speaker 2>that I was only telling them what they wanted to hear.

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<v Speaker 2>And at the time we left off, Andy third trow

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<v Speaker 2>was about to begin and even though his defense he

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to get the Mister Big confession suppressed as evidence,

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<v Speaker 2>the judge denied it, so as we're going to start

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<v Speaker 2>off here. He's about to go on trial with the

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<v Speaker 2>third time and his future is still uncertain.

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<v Speaker 1>So Andy's defense team filed emotion to have his Mister

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<v Speaker 1>Big confession suppressed. His evidence at his third trial were unsuccessful.

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<v Speaker 1>As a result, their plan was to bring in a

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<v Speaker 1>forensic psychologist with expertise in the subjects of police interrogations

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<v Speaker 1>and false confessions, who would testify that Andy had been

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<v Speaker 1>manipulated and coerced. They also planned to bring in Willedine

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<v Speaker 1>Hill and her daughter to testify about vance Hill's alleged

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<v Speaker 1>confession to the murders. The trial finally began in January

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<v Speaker 1>of two thousand and one, but by this point even

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<v Speaker 1>more evidence had emerged to support Andy's innocence. Advance forensic

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<v Speaker 1>testing on the blood stained genes revealed traces of DNA

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<v Speaker 1>belonging to three people. Of course, two of these people

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<v Speaker 1>were burned in Andrea, as the blood spatter wound up

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<v Speaker 1>matching them, but traces of genetic material, including a scalp hair,

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<v Speaker 1>were found in the pants cuff. The DNA on the

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<v Speaker 1>material belonged to a male, but Andy was excluded as

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<v Speaker 1>being the source. Before the trial could be completed, Crown

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<v Speaker 1>Prosecutor Gil McKinnon decided to consult with the British Columbia

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<v Speaker 1>Attorney General, and on January twenty third, he announced that

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<v Speaker 1>the murder charges against Andy were being stayed. McKinnon stated

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<v Speaker 1>that given the amount of evidence which seemed to point

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<v Speaker 1>away from Andy, he would have felt uncomfortable if the

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<v Speaker 1>jury reached another guilty verdict. The Crown had a year's

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<v Speaker 1>reactivate the murder charges against Andy, but they chose not to,

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<v Speaker 1>meaning that he was finally exonerated. In two thousand and nine.

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<v Speaker 1>The story would be featured on an episode of the

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<v Speaker 1>Canadian investigative journalism program The Fifth Estate. By that point,

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<v Speaker 1>Andy was working in a warehouse in Edmonton and had

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<v Speaker 1>managed to start a new relationship with his son, who

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<v Speaker 1>was less than two weeks old when Andy was arrested

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<v Speaker 1>for the murders. Andy said that he now spent most

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<v Speaker 1>of his time alone and as far as I can tell,

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<v Speaker 1>he's never received any compensation for his wrongful incarceration. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 1>the investigation has not had much luck identifying the real perpetrator.

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<v Speaker 1>As it turned out the DNA evidence on the blood

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<v Speaker 1>stained jeans did not match vance Hill either. In addition,

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<v Speaker 1>even though these genes were assized thirty four, Hill was

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<v Speaker 1>known for wearing pants that were as size forty or

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<v Speaker 1>forty two. Since none of the missing identification or property

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<v Speaker 1>that belonged to the two victims has ever been recovered,

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<v Speaker 1>the RCMP has urged anyone who might have found them

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<v Speaker 1>or has information to come forward. But after four decades,

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<v Speaker 1>the murders of Burned Gerica and Andreas Sharp continued to

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<v Speaker 1>remain unsolved.

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<v Speaker 2>So I guess you could say the path went chili.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, So to back up and look at why Andy

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<v Speaker 3>was actually accused in the first place, It's because this

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<v Speaker 3>woman says that at some point he showed up bloody

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<v Speaker 3>at her house and said he had killed the two

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<v Speaker 3>of them.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct, Yes, that's pretty much it. That is the only

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<v Speaker 2>evidence against him, and they never found anything to corroborate

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<v Speaker 2>this story, and Andy always denied it.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's really interesting because they convicted him on that, right.

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<v Speaker 3>This is how they got him in prison in the

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<v Speaker 3>first place. And so when you're looking here, Andy, there's

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<v Speaker 3>no evidence pointing to him. But then you start to

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<v Speaker 3>have evidence like you just described where it points away

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<v Speaker 3>from him, And I feel so much empathy and sadness

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<v Speaker 3>for Andy because he said, you know, now I spend

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<v Speaker 3>all this time alone, I missed out on time with

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<v Speaker 3>my family, and there's likely no compensation here. A wrongful

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<v Speaker 3>you know, a false confession is something that it's very

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<v Speaker 3>difficult to understand. If you didn't do something, why would

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<v Speaker 3>you say you did. Let's say Andy showed up intoxicated

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<v Speaker 3>at this lady's house and said that he had gotten

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<v Speaker 3>into a fuss with somebody and had killed someone. I

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<v Speaker 3>don't even know at that point if I'd believe that confession,

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<v Speaker 3>but we don't know that that even happened. There was

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<v Speaker 3>no way of them validating what this woman had said

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<v Speaker 3>or what her motivation could have been for coming forward.

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<v Speaker 3>So I feel really just upset. You guys know how

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<v Speaker 3>I am about wrongful convictions, that that's the only piece

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<v Speaker 3>of evidence they had in the first place. It's incredible

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<v Speaker 3>that you start to see these forensic facts come out,

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<v Speaker 3>because so many people don't have that luxury when they're

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<v Speaker 3>in prison for something they didn't do, but Andy did.

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<v Speaker 3>Andy had things that started to come out. The DNA

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<v Speaker 3>didn't match that, there were things that pointed away from him.

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<v Speaker 3>He had people that were able to testify and put

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<v Speaker 3>him somewhere else, and so Andy actually ended up being

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<v Speaker 3>quite blessed in some ways, but he still has to

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<v Speaker 3>deal with the fact that part of his life, part

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<v Speaker 3>of his character, was killed. It was taken away from him,

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<v Speaker 3>and so how do we go back and ever make

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<v Speaker 3>that right, even when there is financial compensation, But for Andy,

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<v Speaker 3>he didn't even get that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and this is not the only wrongful conviction case

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<v Speaker 2>we've done where a wrongfully convicted person has been separated

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<v Speaker 2>from their child and has tried to reunite with them

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<v Speaker 2>once they're finally released. And we talked on our last

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<v Speaker 2>episode that back in the early eighties, Andy was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a drifter. He drank too much, he was always

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<v Speaker 2>getting into fights in trouble. But by nineteen eighty nine,

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<v Speaker 2>he had turned his life around. He had a good job,

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<v Speaker 2>he had good relationship, and he had a two week

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<v Speaker 2>old son, so he was ready to start over and

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<v Speaker 2>live a good life. And then he just suddenly gets

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<v Speaker 2>arrested for this murder that took place six years ago

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<v Speaker 2>that he had nothing to do with it. And this

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<v Speaker 2>boy who was only two weeks old when he was arrested,

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<v Speaker 2>is now like ten eleven years old when he finally

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<v Speaker 2>gets out of prison, and now he has to rekindle

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<v Speaker 2>a new relationship with them. So that's got to be

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<v Speaker 2>extra difficult when you know that you missed so much

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<v Speaker 2>time with your child because of this. So we've covered

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<v Speaker 2>a number of wrongful conviction cases on the Path Went Chile,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is our first Canadian one. And while wrongful

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<v Speaker 2>convictions are nowhere nearest prominent in Canada as they are

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<v Speaker 2>in the United States, the country still has serious issues

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<v Speaker 2>with them, and this story is definitely an example of

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<v Speaker 2>the Canadian justice system going horribly wrong. Quite frankly, the

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<v Speaker 2>Crown's case against Andy Rose for the murders of Burnt

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<v Speaker 2>Gerica and Andreas Shirp might be one of the weakest

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<v Speaker 2>cases I've ever seen which resulted in a guilty verdict.

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<v Speaker 2>And the fact that two separate juries at two separate

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<v Speaker 2>trials felt that the evidence against Andy was strong enough

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<v Speaker 2>to convict him beyond reasonable doubt he is pretty terrifying.

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<v Speaker 2>On both occasions. All the prosecution really had was Madonna

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<v Speaker 2>Kelly's testimony that Andy shsh She showed up at her

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<v Speaker 2>door one night covered in blood and confessed to the murders,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's literally it. There was no real evidence to

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<v Speaker 2>corroborate Madonna's story, but there were a number of holes

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<v Speaker 2>in it, as well as several logistical issues which made

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<v Speaker 2>it seem impossible that Andy could have committed this crime.

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<v Speaker 2>There's also the fact that Madonna never came forward and

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<v Speaker 2>told the police about this so called murder confession, as

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<v Speaker 2>they did not hear about it until nearly six years

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<v Speaker 2>after the fact. You might be wondering how two juries

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<v Speaker 2>were able to overlook the considerable logistical holes of Madonna's account,

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<v Speaker 2>but she was apparently a very convincing witness who had

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<v Speaker 2>a history of making false stories sound believable. While describing

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<v Speaker 2>Madonna's testimony on the aforementioned Fifth Estate episode, Andy's sister

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<v Speaker 2>and Collette stated, quote, she looked like the virgin Mary

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<v Speaker 2>on the stand, but she's no Virgin Mary. End quote.

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<v Speaker 2>The Fifth Estate was hoping to have Madonna pear on

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<v Speaker 2>their episode, but she refused to do an interview unless

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<v Speaker 2>they paid her thirty thousand dollars to say The show

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<v Speaker 2>declined her offers, So we may never know her reasoning

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<v Speaker 2>for doing what she did, but personally, I have to

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<v Speaker 2>wonder if the whole thing may have been a lie

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<v Speaker 2>which wound up escalating out of control. Remember, Madonna did

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<v Speaker 2>not voluntarily come forward and shared this story with the

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<v Speaker 2>police on her own accord. The only reason to even

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<v Speaker 2>found out about it was because she happened to share

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<v Speaker 2>the story with Tom Martin, a drug informant, who decided

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<v Speaker 2>to pass it along to the authorities. Andy has acknowledged

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<v Speaker 2>that there could have been one incident where he showed

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<v Speaker 2>up to Madonna's trailer in the middle of the night

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<v Speaker 2>while he was drunk and had blood on his clothes

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<v Speaker 2>because he got into a bar fight. For reasons unknown,

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<v Speaker 2>Madonna may have chosen to exaggerate this story and told

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<v Speaker 2>Martin that Andy showed up in this condition and confessed

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<v Speaker 2>about a double murder. However, when Martin took this information

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<v Speaker 2>to the RCNP and they started questioning Madonna and pressuring

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<v Speaker 2>her into testifying against Andy, she may have felt there

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<v Speaker 2>was no turning back, so she had no choice but

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<v Speaker 2>to stick to her original story. Hell, maybe she legitimate

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<v Speaker 2>believe that Andy committed these murders and convinced herself that

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<v Speaker 2>she was only lying to help put a guilty man

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<v Speaker 2>in prison. I'm sure madonn and Ever envisioned that the

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<v Speaker 2>whole ordeal would drag on for over a decade and

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<v Speaker 2>she would be forced to testify at multiple trials.

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<v Speaker 3>And the credibility of everyone involved in this is questionable.

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<v Speaker 3>You had Tom Martin, who's a drug informant, and when

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<v Speaker 3>we look at people who are paid informants, who are

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<v Speaker 3>informants who are getting something in return from law enforcement,

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<v Speaker 3>when we look at jail house snitches, when you have

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<v Speaker 3>all of these these informants who are placed in positions

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<v Speaker 3>to benefit and lessen the consequences of their actions, there's

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<v Speaker 3>it's a massive contributor to wrongful convictions. They're being incentivized

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<v Speaker 3>to get information which may or may not be there,

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<v Speaker 3>and they often will make up information even if it's

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<v Speaker 3>not part of the case they're assigned to, to bring back

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<v Speaker 3>to police to gain favor. And so when you have

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<v Speaker 3>someone like Tom Martin and then you have Madonna who's

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<v Speaker 3>paired with him, I guarantee you whatever stories started, it's

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<v Speaker 3>like a story of telephone in the first place, because

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<v Speaker 3>Andy told Madonna. Supposedly Madonna then told Tom. Tom then

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<v Speaker 3>told the people he worked for. Those people then told

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<v Speaker 3>the prosecutors so it's this whole little trail of information

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<v Speaker 3>from unreliable sources who are also potentially benefiting themselves by

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<v Speaker 3>sharing it. I think it could be completely made up.

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<v Speaker 3>I think there's potential Madonna could have had an issue

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<v Speaker 3>with Andy and said something, maybe in jest, and then

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<v Speaker 3>it got blown out of proportion, and then, like you said,

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<v Speaker 3>who knows, maybe Madonna actually created this story in her head,

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<v Speaker 3>or at some point the story became very real to

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<v Speaker 3>her because she had told it so many times. But

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<v Speaker 3>there's also a potential that by the time it gets

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<v Speaker 3>to police and prosecutors that there's some misconduct going on

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<v Speaker 3>as well, where they're basically told what that's story will

256
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<v Speaker 3>now be, and that's created to be their truth from

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<v Speaker 3>a third party telling them what they're truth is going

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<v Speaker 3>to be.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm really curious what you both make of the whole

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<v Speaker 1>Fifth Estate thing, because this is Canada and our programs

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<v Speaker 1>aren't going to pay anyone thirty thousand dollars to appear,

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<v Speaker 1>especially if you're the witness for the prosecution in this trial.

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<v Speaker 1>It just it doesn't seem it's not like this is

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<v Speaker 1>somebody who is as high profile as like a Karla

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<v Speaker 1>Hamoka or something like that where I don't know if

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<v Speaker 1>programs would even pay her. It just doesn't seem like

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<v Speaker 1>a very Canadian thing to do. So was her objective

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<v Speaker 1>when she set this thirty thousand dollars minimum because she

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<v Speaker 1>just knew that they wouldn't pay, and she was like,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to have to go up against these

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<v Speaker 1>investigative journalists because whenever she's in court, she's being coached

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<v Speaker 1>by the prosecution and she's getting everything in line because

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<v Speaker 1>they're helping her to do so, and they're helping her

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<v Speaker 1>to remember what she said previously. But she wouldn't have

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<v Speaker 1>that an intro.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've wondered about that because I can believe that

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<v Speaker 2>she never intended to have Andy send to prison, that

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<v Speaker 2>it was just kind of her lying to a friend

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<v Speaker 2>of hers and it spiled out of control because she

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<v Speaker 2>never expected Tom Martin to go to the police. But

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<v Speaker 2>then you hear about like ten years after the fact,

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<v Speaker 2>that she's trying to profit from it. It almost sounds

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<v Speaker 2>like by demanding money that I'm pretty sure the Fifth

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<v Speaker 2>of State is never going to pay because this case

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<v Speaker 2>is not high profile enough that they're going to pay

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<v Speaker 2>off a prosecution witness. So I do wonder did she

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<v Speaker 2>legitimately think she was going to become wealthy over this

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<v Speaker 2>case or was she just using as an excuse to

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<v Speaker 2>avoid saying no to the interview because she was probably

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<v Speaker 2>going to be uncomfortable and thought, well, if I demand

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00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:43.559
<v Speaker 2>to make the money and they say no, then what

292
00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:45.320
<v Speaker 2>are you going to do? They can't say that I

293
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<v Speaker 2>was the one who rejected the interview.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Absolutely, And I think here when when you look

295
00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:55.440
<v Speaker 3>at her and you see where this started from, I'm

296
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<v Speaker 3>with you, Jules. I think it started as something not

297
00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:01.159
<v Speaker 3>a grand idea and Rob and like you said, I

298
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:03.279
<v Speaker 3>don't know that she really intended for Andy to go

299
00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:06.519
<v Speaker 3>to prison or even truly believe this story to start,

300
00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:10.480
<v Speaker 3>but it gets ballooned out, it gets magnified, and it

301
00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:14.080
<v Speaker 3>becomes these sole piece of evidence in this court story.

302
00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:18.600
<v Speaker 3>And so when you hear this fact over and over again,

303
00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:22.039
<v Speaker 3>and you're Madonna and you're Tom and you literally are

304
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.360
<v Speaker 3>the crux of this case, there's so much pressure, there's

305
00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:29.679
<v Speaker 3>so much validation put on you, and you're almost encouraged

306
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:32.639
<v Speaker 3>and amped up that you're this hero that you've provided

307
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:35.519
<v Speaker 3>this information they needed. These are two people who are

308
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:38.360
<v Speaker 3>going to get justice because of your bravery and your story,

309
00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:42.240
<v Speaker 3>and let's make sure your story is right again. And

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<v Speaker 3>like I said, it's like a fictional retelling. I'm just

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00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:46.919
<v Speaker 3>gonna tell you what I need you to say on

312
00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.159
<v Speaker 3>the stand. I'm going to tell you what I need

313
00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:51.600
<v Speaker 3>you to repeat while we're doing this interview. I'm going

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<v Speaker 3>to tell you what I need you to hit on.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

316
00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:58.480
<v Speaker 3>It's like someone coaching you in a script. But this

317
00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:00.679
<v Speaker 3>is someone's life on the other end of it. This

318
00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:03.200
<v Speaker 3>is someone Andy's sitting on the other side going what

319
00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:07.119
<v Speaker 3>are they talking about? This isn't true. But again, it's

320
00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:11.079
<v Speaker 3>confirmed so many times throughout this lineup of people that

321
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:13.960
<v Speaker 3>at the end of the day, Madonna's sitting there going, Okay,

322
00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:16.920
<v Speaker 3>I'm just going to tell this story. But she's just

323
00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:19.680
<v Speaker 3>as selfish as anybody else. She says, Hey, I can

324
00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:22.799
<v Speaker 3>actually capitalize on this. I could maybe make some money

325
00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:25.519
<v Speaker 3>on this. And like you said, this is going to

326
00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:27.640
<v Speaker 3>be a very vulnerable spot. Had they said yes to

327
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:31.160
<v Speaker 3>her thirty thousand dollars offer, which is crazy, had they

328
00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:34.519
<v Speaker 3>said yes, would she have done well? Would she have

329
00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:38.480
<v Speaker 3>told the same story? Possibly yes, because it had been

330
00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:40.799
<v Speaker 3>told to her so many times, and she had recanted

331
00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:43.720
<v Speaker 3>it so many times. But like you said, if she

332
00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:45.960
<v Speaker 3>didn't bring her attorney with her, if she didn't bring

333
00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:49.559
<v Speaker 3>a representative with her who's coaching and helping her, would

334
00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:51.480
<v Speaker 3>you start to see holes in that story. It would

335
00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:54.039
<v Speaker 3>have been fascinating to hear her version on some public

336
00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:57.359
<v Speaker 3>television show and see if it actually lined up the

337
00:17:57.400 --> 00:17:58.440
<v Speaker 3>same way it did in court.

338
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<v Speaker 1>It's it's very unfortunate for Andy the DNA profiling was

339
00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:06.720
<v Speaker 1>still in its infancy back in nineteen eighty nine, because

340
00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:08.960
<v Speaker 1>if they had been able to perform testing on the

341
00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:12.240
<v Speaker 1>bloody jeans right at the outset, he may never have

342
00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:15.160
<v Speaker 1>been taken to trial in the first place. Even if

343
00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:19.200
<v Speaker 1>you disregard that Madonna's story contained so many holes that

344
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:22.839
<v Speaker 1>there's just no way both juries should have convicted Andy.

345
00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:26.599
<v Speaker 1>The most obvious issue is that Burned and Andrea were

346
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:30.039
<v Speaker 1>likely murdered while being picked up hitchhiking, and their bodies

347
00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:33.920
<v Speaker 1>were found over thirty kilometers outside of chetwind But even

348
00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.039
<v Speaker 1>though Andy was residing in Chetwynd back in nineteen eighty three,

349
00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:39.759
<v Speaker 1>he didn't own a vehicle at the time, and it

350
00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:42.519
<v Speaker 1>sounds like he was living a pretty nomadic lifestyle just

351
00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:45.319
<v Speaker 1>bouncing around from place to place and taking whatever work

352
00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:47.799
<v Speaker 1>he could find, but any money he earned would go

353
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.440
<v Speaker 1>right back towards his drinking. Even if Andy managed to

354
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:55.160
<v Speaker 1>borrow someone else's vehicle, There's still a major discrepancy with

355
00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:58.079
<v Speaker 1>the fact that Madonna described him as wearing bloodstained jeans

356
00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:01.440
<v Speaker 1>when he showed up outside her trailer, Yet bloody jeenes

357
00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:04.440
<v Speaker 1>were found in a trash bin over thirty kilometers away.

358
00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:07.400
<v Speaker 1>It makes zero sense for a guy who committed a

359
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.960
<v Speaker 1>double murder to wear the incriminating evidence around in public

360
00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:13.720
<v Speaker 1>and then decide to travel all the way back to

361
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:16.519
<v Speaker 1>the murder scene to get rid of it, especially if

362
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:19.519
<v Speaker 1>they don't even own a vehicle. And while we're on

363
00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:23.359
<v Speaker 1>the subject of Andy driving great distances, I really don't

364
00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:27.160
<v Speaker 1>see how anyone could have legitimately believed that he committed

365
00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:31.079
<v Speaker 1>this crime, as Andrea's travelers checks were used at numerous

366
00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:34.519
<v Speaker 1>gas station locations hundreds of kilometers away in the days

367
00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:38.920
<v Speaker 1>following the murder. Putting aside Andy having no mode of transportation,

368
00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:42.519
<v Speaker 1>employment records showed that he was working in Chetwyn on

369
00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:45.759
<v Speaker 1>the days those travelers checks were used, So how could

370
00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:49.720
<v Speaker 1>investigators possibly explain that away? It sounds like the Crown

371
00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:52.839
<v Speaker 1>tried to account for this at Andy's trials by acknowledging

372
00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:55.960
<v Speaker 1>that someone else did use those checks, though I'm not

373
00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:59.640
<v Speaker 1>entirely sure what their rationale was. Were we supposed to

374
00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:03.519
<v Speaker 1>believe that Andy committed the murders and then inexplicably gave

375
00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:07.559
<v Speaker 1>the Travelers checks to someone else, or by pure coincidence

376
00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.480
<v Speaker 1>did another individual just happen to stumble upon Andrea's body

377
00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:14.880
<v Speaker 1>and steal the checks from her. There's also the fact

378
00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:17.759
<v Speaker 1>that both Burned and Andrea had a number of possessions

379
00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:21.240
<v Speaker 1>on them which were never recovered, such as camping equipment

380
00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:24.880
<v Speaker 1>and a guitar for someone who was perpetually broke. It's

381
00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:28.039
<v Speaker 1>surprising that Andy didn't steal these items, and there's no

382
00:20:28.119 --> 00:20:31.079
<v Speaker 1>record of him ever having attempted to sell them.

383
00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:35.240
<v Speaker 3>Right, all the things that Andrea and Burned needed they

384
00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:38.039
<v Speaker 3>didn't have on them anymore when their bodies were discovered.

385
00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:41.759
<v Speaker 3>Someone took their things. In fact, I think what happened

386
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:44.319
<v Speaker 3>is they were hitchhiking, They get into the car with

387
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:47.799
<v Speaker 3>someone who's very used to trying to manipulate and lure

388
00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:51.759
<v Speaker 3>somebody in. They're charming there, I would say, clean cut

389
00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:55.839
<v Speaker 3>well put together, and they easily convinced these two young

390
00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:58.920
<v Speaker 3>people to jump in the car with them. And when

391
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:01.480
<v Speaker 3>they start fussing right in the truck, because there's a

392
00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:04.359
<v Speaker 3>truck scene with them with the checks. When they start

393
00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:07.599
<v Speaker 3>fussing with him, or maybe he makes a move on Andrea,

394
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:10.640
<v Speaker 3>all of a sudden there's a confrontation, and I believe

395
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.960
<v Speaker 3>it led to their murder. And those checks I believe

396
00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:16.839
<v Speaker 3>were taken by the killer and then attempted to be

397
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:20.240
<v Speaker 3>used elsewhere. Remember, the person using the checks can calmly

398
00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:23.839
<v Speaker 3>explain away, Oh you know, I'm getting this for a friend.

399
00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:26.559
<v Speaker 3>This is why the name on there is Andrea. If

400
00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:30.599
<v Speaker 3>there's no anxiety, there's no worry. That is not Andy.

401
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.880
<v Speaker 3>Andy's not the person being described there. This is not

402
00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:38.119
<v Speaker 3>Andy in the truck. And he doesn't have transportation. Like

403
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:41.279
<v Speaker 3>you said, he would have killed these people, gotten in

404
00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:43.880
<v Speaker 3>a car that he had to borrow from someone without

405
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:47.279
<v Speaker 3>getting blood all over it. Get to Madonna, tell her

406
00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:50.839
<v Speaker 3>this crazy story. Then get back in that borrowed car,

407
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:54.759
<v Speaker 3>drive all the way back and discard of those genes.

408
00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:58.440
<v Speaker 3>Ride back with no pants on. Use these checks in

409
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:01.200
<v Speaker 3>this truck right. All the things that just don't make

410
00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:04.880
<v Speaker 3>any sense. It's impossible in my head to figure out

411
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:09.079
<v Speaker 3>where and how The crown says, oh, yeah, let's move forward,

412
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.759
<v Speaker 3>let's prosecute this man. You have Madonna who doesn't have

413
00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:16.400
<v Speaker 3>all of her stability to her. You have an informant Tom,

414
00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:19.720
<v Speaker 3>and that is it. Everything else tells you you need

415
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:23.079
<v Speaker 3>to look somewhere else. This doesn't make sense. Step back

416
00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:25.240
<v Speaker 3>and look at the bigger picture. This is not fitting.

417
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:30.359
<v Speaker 3>And instead it's like every other wrongful conviction where they say,

418
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.160
<v Speaker 3>guess what, we made our decision. It's Andy, and now

419
00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:35.680
<v Speaker 3>we're just going to ride that wave and finish it

420
00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:38.480
<v Speaker 3>without paying attention to all the facts that do not

421
00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:39.480
<v Speaker 3>fit that narrative.

422
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:42.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we see that as a recurring pattern in wrongful

423
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:46.039
<v Speaker 2>conviction cases, where they'll charge a suspect but not do

424
00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:49.279
<v Speaker 2>any research beforehand. And of course this is one where

425
00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:52.000
<v Speaker 2>you should have checked Andy's whereabouts, like you should have

426
00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:53.960
<v Speaker 2>checked his time sheets to make sure he was not

427
00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:57.400
<v Speaker 2>working on those particular days that the travelers checks were used.

428
00:22:57.720 --> 00:22:59.720
<v Speaker 2>But I'm guessing they didn't do that until after they

429
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:01.759
<v Speaker 2>read to them and then had the mentality, well, we

430
00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:04.240
<v Speaker 2>can't admit we were wrong. There's no turning back here,

431
00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:07.279
<v Speaker 2>so they still decided to move forward at trial even

432
00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:10.759
<v Speaker 2>though the whole case had fallen apart. So before we

433
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:14.039
<v Speaker 2>start talking about alternate suspects, I suppose we should address

434
00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:17.880
<v Speaker 2>the notorious mister bing Sting operation, which could have conceivably

435
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:21.359
<v Speaker 2>led to Andy being convicted for the third time. I've

436
00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:23.680
<v Speaker 2>already mentioned that the Mister Big technique is one of

437
00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:27.200
<v Speaker 2>the most controversial elements of the Canadian justice system, so

438
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:30.240
<v Speaker 2>much so that its use is actually prohibited in criminal

439
00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:33.839
<v Speaker 2>investigations in a number of other countries, including the United

440
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:37.480
<v Speaker 2>States and Great Britain. The whole thing was originally developed

441
00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:39.759
<v Speaker 2>by the RCMP and has been used by them in

442
00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:42.880
<v Speaker 2>hundreds of cases, and I will acknowledge that it has

443
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:46.559
<v Speaker 2>led to the successful conviction of a number of guilty suspects.

444
00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:49.839
<v Speaker 2>But since the Mister Big technique is often considered to

445
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:52.440
<v Speaker 2>be a last resort which is only used to close

446
00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.559
<v Speaker 2>unsolved cases where the evidence isn't particularly strong, even the

447
00:23:56.559 --> 00:23:59.920
<v Speaker 2>most successful examples may wind up being surrounded by contra

448
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:03.599
<v Speaker 2>For instance, if you've seen the Netflix true crime series

449
00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:06.920
<v Speaker 2>The Confession Tapes, you're probably familiar with the convictions of

450
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:10.839
<v Speaker 2>Sebastian Burns and a Tiefrafe, two young men who received

451
00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:13.920
<v Speaker 2>life sentences for the murders of Rafe's parents and sister

452
00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:17.519
<v Speaker 2>in Belle w Washington in nineteen ninety four. Even though

453
00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:20.680
<v Speaker 2>Burns and Refee were Canadian citizens who lived in Vancouver,

454
00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:23.519
<v Speaker 2>they wound up being charged with the murders after the

455
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:27.519
<v Speaker 2>RCMP launched a Mister Big sting operation in which undercover

456
00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:32.079
<v Speaker 2>officers secretly recorded both suspects confessing the involvement in the crime.

457
00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:35.640
<v Speaker 2>Of course, they've always maintained that their so called confessions

458
00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:38.720
<v Speaker 2>were false, and even though the Netflix series tried to

459
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:42.000
<v Speaker 2>present a case for Burns and Refee being wrongly convicted,

460
00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:45.759
<v Speaker 2>I personally believe they are guilty of this crime. But

461
00:24:46.039 --> 00:24:48.599
<v Speaker 2>even so I can understand why there has always been

462
00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:51.920
<v Speaker 2>debate about the legalities of their convictions, because the crime

463
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:55.160
<v Speaker 2>technically took place on American soil, and the arrests were

464
00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:58.599
<v Speaker 2>made possible by a Canadian sting operation which was based

465
00:24:58.599 --> 00:25:01.200
<v Speaker 2>around a technique that a mayor or law enforcement are

466
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:04.720
<v Speaker 2>forbidden to use. One case which was a major turning

467
00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:07.640
<v Speaker 2>point in this whole controversy was the murder conviction of

468
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:11.079
<v Speaker 2>Nelson Hart, a Newfoundland resident who was charged with drowning

469
00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:13.920
<v Speaker 2>his twin three year old daughters, Karen and Christa. In

470
00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:17.480
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and two, once again, Heart's arrest was made

471
00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:20.960
<v Speaker 2>possible following a videotape confession he made to an undercover

472
00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:25.720
<v Speaker 2>RCMP officer during a Mister bing sting operation. When Heart's

473
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:29.079
<v Speaker 2>attorneys appealed his conviction and argued that his confession should

474
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.400
<v Speaker 2>not have been admissible, the Newfoundland and Labrador Supreme Court

475
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:35.359
<v Speaker 2>of Appeal agreed and ruled that Heart was entitled to

476
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:38.440
<v Speaker 2>a new trial. The case wound up making it all

477
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:40.799
<v Speaker 2>the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, and in

478
00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:44.279
<v Speaker 2>July twenty fourteen, they released a ruling in which they

479
00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:47.559
<v Speaker 2>expressed air concern that all confessions obtained through the Mister

480
00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:52.680
<v Speaker 2>Big technique were quote unquote, presumptively inadmissible. The ruling stated,

481
00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:56.200
<v Speaker 2>quote the Crown must establish, on a balance of probabilities

482
00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:59.880
<v Speaker 2>that the probate of value outweighs its prejudicial effect. The

483
00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:03.599
<v Speaker 2>rebatea value does not outweigh its prejudicial effect, then the

484
00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:07.119
<v Speaker 2>statement will be excluded. End quote. As a result, the

485
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:10.200
<v Speaker 2>murder charges against Nelson Hart were withdrawn and he was

486
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:11.119
<v Speaker 2>released from prison.

487
00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:14.680
<v Speaker 3>Okay, but let's back up and look at Andy specifically,

488
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:20.079
<v Speaker 3>and this mister big sting operation. Andy had struggled with alcoholism,

489
00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:24.559
<v Speaker 3>and they used alcohol correct when they were talking to him.

490
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:27.640
<v Speaker 2>Yes, like they invited him to like a hotel and

491
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:30.039
<v Speaker 2>then invite him down into the bar to have some beers.

492
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.880
<v Speaker 2>So he was getting intoxicated before they were trying to

493
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:33.640
<v Speaker 2>make him confess.

494
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:37.279
<v Speaker 3>Right, So okay to me that right there is problematic

495
00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:42.400
<v Speaker 3>when you take somebody's medical, mental health kind of issues

496
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:46.960
<v Speaker 3>and you say, hey, let's exploit that, let's lower his inhibitions.

497
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:51.319
<v Speaker 3>How many of us have heard someone or even maybe

498
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:57.079
<v Speaker 3>personally have said something incredibly ignorant or offensive or wrong

499
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:01.039
<v Speaker 3>or lied while we were under the influence of something.

500
00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:05.200
<v Speaker 3>I think you have. There's a reason why, right, It's

501
00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:10.000
<v Speaker 3>an impairment when you are intoxicated. And so to say, hey, you.

502
00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:10.519
<v Speaker 2>Know what we're going to do.

503
00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:13.119
<v Speaker 3>We're going to just loosen his inhibitions. It doesn't just

504
00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:16.160
<v Speaker 3>do that. It plays on other mental health issues and

505
00:27:16.200 --> 00:27:20.400
<v Speaker 3>other concerns and other psychological effects when someone is intoxicated.

506
00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:23.599
<v Speaker 3>And so to say, then we're going to get the truth,

507
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:27.200
<v Speaker 3>and we're going to just get him to say what

508
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:30.720
<v Speaker 3>he actually did. I think is ignorant in many ways,

509
00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:33.680
<v Speaker 3>and it's very immoral. Let's say it's legal, who cares.

510
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.200
<v Speaker 3>I think it's it's immoral when you think about doing that, like, hey,

511
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:40.680
<v Speaker 3>let's take someone who struggles with their sobriety and let's

512
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:44.680
<v Speaker 3>feed him some alcohol and see what he says. Also,

513
00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:47.720
<v Speaker 3>like we've talked about before, the setup, in and of itself,

514
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:53.319
<v Speaker 3>it's like dudes sitting around bragging and teasing and bantering

515
00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:56.960
<v Speaker 3>and trying to one up one another. And everyone's witnessed

516
00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:00.359
<v Speaker 3>conversations like that where you are pretty sure everything out

517
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:02.880
<v Speaker 3>of everyone's mouth is a lie. But it's like, I'm

518
00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:04.880
<v Speaker 3>just gonna one up you. I'm gonna kind of measure

519
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:07.720
<v Speaker 3>myself against you by being better than you, bigger than you,

520
00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:11.319
<v Speaker 3>badder than you. So I could easily see people saying,

521
00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:13.880
<v Speaker 3>oh yeah, I killed a guy, Oh yeah, I killed

522
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:17.480
<v Speaker 3>these two people when you're feeding them and trying to

523
00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:21.319
<v Speaker 3>prompt them that their value worth need to you would

524
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:23.759
<v Speaker 3>be how big of a man they can be, how

525
00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:26.599
<v Speaker 3>bad of a man they can be. And so it's

526
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:29.519
<v Speaker 3>the whole concept in and of itself is wrong. But

527
00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:32.559
<v Speaker 3>with Andy specifically, once they turn to that alcohol use

528
00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:35.400
<v Speaker 3>and they say, hey, we're going to add that layer

529
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:38.759
<v Speaker 3>to me, that's not someone in their right mind talking

530
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:39.079
<v Speaker 3>to you.

531
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:43.279
<v Speaker 1>It makes it so complex when you take somebody with

532
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:46.240
<v Speaker 1>it's what it sounds like in alcohol use disorder, and

533
00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:49.559
<v Speaker 1>then you put them in this situation where, like you said,

534
00:28:49.640 --> 00:28:51.839
<v Speaker 1>all of these people are saying basically, we want to

535
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:56.079
<v Speaker 1>know this, and people in like you said, ash when

536
00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:59.640
<v Speaker 1>they're inebriated, will often tell tall tales. And if you

537
00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:02.240
<v Speaker 1>feel like these people who are in power and there

538
00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:05.519
<v Speaker 1>is a power imbalance, if they want you to say

539
00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:07.559
<v Speaker 1>a certain type of a thing, and you very much

540
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:09.759
<v Speaker 1>are going to get that feeling. And I don't know

541
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:13.599
<v Speaker 1>if either of you, Robin, you likely have seen the

542
00:29:13.640 --> 00:29:17.240
<v Speaker 1>Sebastian burns and a t for fe mister big video.

543
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:18.359
<v Speaker 2>I have.

544
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:22.480
<v Speaker 1>Yes, Yeah, it's pretty intense. I mean, there's no argument

545
00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:24.759
<v Speaker 1>for me that those two did it. But the type

546
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:28.400
<v Speaker 1>of pressure and the type of scenario in situation where

547
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:32.480
<v Speaker 1>you're going to be sharing this information, they very much

548
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:36.640
<v Speaker 1>tell you what they need to hear, not in the details,

549
00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:40.240
<v Speaker 1>but in that we need to hear that you committed

550
00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:43.319
<v Speaker 1>this crime or committed a crime, and we need details

551
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:45.920
<v Speaker 1>of it in order for you to enter this organization,

552
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:48.799
<v Speaker 1>So it's very much set up to confess whether you

553
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:51.160
<v Speaker 1>did it or not. And like Ashley paralleled it to

554
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:54.039
<v Speaker 1>the read technique in part one, and I think that

555
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:55.680
<v Speaker 1>is a really valid comparison.

556
00:29:56.839 --> 00:29:58.680
<v Speaker 2>And even with Andy's they were trying to get him

557
00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:01.519
<v Speaker 2>to reveal details which they he felt might incriminate him,

558
00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:03.319
<v Speaker 2>like how did you get a hold of the gun

559
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:05.559
<v Speaker 2>that she used to kill burn and Andrea? And he

560
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:07.480
<v Speaker 2>never was able to do that. He just said, oh, yeah,

561
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:08.839
<v Speaker 2>I had a gun. I had a gun, But he

562
00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:11.920
<v Speaker 2>was not able to offer any specific details that were

563
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:14.519
<v Speaker 2>not public knowledge which showed that he committed the crimes.

564
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:16.960
<v Speaker 2>So it really just showed that they were reaching and

565
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:19.119
<v Speaker 2>they wanted him to confess, but they didn't want to.

566
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:22.640
<v Speaker 2>They were not able to make his confession convincing and

567
00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:25.079
<v Speaker 2>get him to reveal anything that would approve and he

568
00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:25.640
<v Speaker 2>was the killer.

569
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:30.480
<v Speaker 1>Now we can spend several podcast episodes debating the ethics

570
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.119
<v Speaker 1>of the Mister Big technique and the guilt or innocence

571
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:36.240
<v Speaker 1>of the suspects who'd been convicted by it. However, I

572
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:38.559
<v Speaker 1>think it's safe to say that Andy Rose was one

573
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:42.319
<v Speaker 1>of the most clear cut examples of an innocent person

574
00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:46.119
<v Speaker 1>being railroaded by the process, and what separates his story

575
00:30:46.119 --> 00:30:49.440
<v Speaker 1>from other Mister Big cases is that he had already

576
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.839
<v Speaker 1>been tried and convicted of his crime on two separate occasions.

577
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:56.519
<v Speaker 1>Since Andy's defense team were in the midst of performing

578
00:30:56.599 --> 00:31:00.000
<v Speaker 1>DNA testing and there was an eyewitness claiming that another

579
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:04.039
<v Speaker 1>suspect confessed to the murders, it seemed clear the RCMP

580
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:07.440
<v Speaker 1>was worried that Andy might not get convicted this time around,

581
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:10.799
<v Speaker 1>so the whole thing was a very desperate, last ditch

582
00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:15.559
<v Speaker 1>attempt to fabricate evidence against him. During the fifth Estate episode,

583
00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:19.079
<v Speaker 1>one of Andy's defense attorneys was interviewed and said that

584
00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:21.880
<v Speaker 1>she was livid when she first learned that Andy had

585
00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:24.920
<v Speaker 1>admitted to the murders on tape, but once she watched

586
00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:28.039
<v Speaker 1>the recording, she had a better understanding of how Andy

587
00:31:28.119 --> 00:31:30.759
<v Speaker 1>could have been coerced to do this, even if he

588
00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:33.960
<v Speaker 1>was completely innocent. If you watch footage of any of

589
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:37.960
<v Speaker 1>these Mister Big sting operations, one recurring pattern you might

590
00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:42.039
<v Speaker 1>find amusing is it undercover cops loved to insert F

591
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:46.720
<v Speaker 1>bombs into pretty much every sentence during their conversations. It

592
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:49.680
<v Speaker 1>often comes across as if they're trying way too hard

593
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:53.519
<v Speaker 1>to portray themselves as tough criminals, but they're also establishing

594
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:58.319
<v Speaker 1>a constant pattern of abrasive, abusive, and intimidating language in

595
00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:01.359
<v Speaker 1>order to exert pressure on the set expect and compel

596
00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:05.480
<v Speaker 1>them to confess. But what's particularly troubling about andy sting

597
00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:09.880
<v Speaker 1>operation As the undercover officers were feeding him blatantly false

598
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:13.720
<v Speaker 1>information about his upcoming trial, such as the fact that

599
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:17.640
<v Speaker 1>will Adine Hill was possibly going to recounter story about

600
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:21.559
<v Speaker 1>her former husband confessing to the murders. They made Andy

601
00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:24.000
<v Speaker 1>believe there was a genuine chance that he would get

602
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:29.039
<v Speaker 1>convicted again, when in actuality, investigators feared that Andy might

603
00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:32.920
<v Speaker 1>not get convicted unless they coerced a confession out of him.

604
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:35.839
<v Speaker 3>I think I've told you guys before that when I

605
00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:39.160
<v Speaker 3>first started dating Rebel, he'said no one would ever falsely confess,

606
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:42.640
<v Speaker 3>you know, And now I've taught him well, But he

607
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.480
<v Speaker 3>teases and he says, oh my god, please don't ever die.

608
00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:49.200
<v Speaker 3>Because if I'm getting interrogated and they use some of

609
00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:52.880
<v Speaker 3>these techniques we've seen, I can understand how people will

610
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:56.279
<v Speaker 3>get confused and overwhelmed and feel like they need to

611
00:32:57.160 --> 00:32:58.799
<v Speaker 3>try to get themselves out of this or even start

612
00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:00.440
<v Speaker 3>to believe that something could have happen and that they

613
00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:03.559
<v Speaker 3>don't remember, because, like you just said, well, they'll give

614
00:33:03.640 --> 00:33:07.160
<v Speaker 3>blatantly false information. Here in the US, they're trained to

615
00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:10.200
<v Speaker 3>use that as a mechanism. So they could say, hey,

616
00:33:10.279 --> 00:33:12.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, rebel, Reagan is in the other room and

617
00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:14.519
<v Speaker 3>she said that she heard you get up in the

618
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:16.920
<v Speaker 3>middle of the night. She heard her mother scream rebels

619
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:21.400
<v Speaker 3>stop right, rebel no, and then we found your wife, right,

620
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:24.599
<v Speaker 3>And so they can sit there and say people who

621
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:28.200
<v Speaker 3>love and care about you are using and telling information

622
00:33:28.279 --> 00:33:31.720
<v Speaker 3>that incriminates you. That people who you trust and people

623
00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:35.079
<v Speaker 3>who would validate what you know is true are in

624
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:37.920
<v Speaker 3>the room next door saying that that's not true, right,

625
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:40.119
<v Speaker 3>that you are the killer and that you had done something.

626
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:43.559
<v Speaker 3>And so it's insane. That's what mister Big is doing.

627
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:47.119
<v Speaker 3>They're sitting there feeding information, they're making up lies. You know.

628
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:50.400
<v Speaker 3>They could say, hey, Rebel, we actually have your DNA,

629
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:53.400
<v Speaker 3>we have your fingerprint and blood around her neck, you know,

630
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:56.319
<v Speaker 3>whatever it is, And then he's going, how did that happen?

631
00:33:56.519 --> 00:33:59.039
<v Speaker 3>And Reagan's saying, I did it, Oh my gosh, Okay.

632
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:02.359
<v Speaker 3>So in some ways I think just the same way,

633
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:08.400
<v Speaker 3>these mister big sting operations could almost inflate someone's imagination

634
00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:11.840
<v Speaker 3>to a point where they might even believe that they

635
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:15.239
<v Speaker 3>have something to tell that is not real. But more so,

636
00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:19.960
<v Speaker 3>I think they create this hyper masculine or kind of

637
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:25.880
<v Speaker 3>importance or grandiose nature of the person that's being framed

638
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:30.639
<v Speaker 3>here basically and allows them to feel like there's somebody

639
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:33.239
<v Speaker 3>to people they want to impress, and that's it. I

640
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:35.960
<v Speaker 3>don't always think that these kinds of operations are resulting

641
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:39.960
<v Speaker 3>in someone being confused or even telling the truth. I

642
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:42.559
<v Speaker 3>think it's more to show off and to show out

643
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:46.079
<v Speaker 3>in Andy's case specifically, and in many other people's And

644
00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:48.480
<v Speaker 3>then could you get troops out often?

645
00:34:48.599 --> 00:34:48.880
<v Speaker 1>Sure?

646
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:52.599
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, But does it set you up to also create

647
00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:57.400
<v Speaker 3>false narratives and false stories? Yes, And if that's the case,

648
00:34:57.440 --> 00:34:59.719
<v Speaker 3>it's not a good technique. It's not something that should

649
00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:04.119
<v Speaker 3>be used because if there's one guilt he or one

650
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:07.800
<v Speaker 3>innocent person is going to prison on this, and ten

651
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:12.800
<v Speaker 3>are getting convicted using this fairly, that one person, right,

652
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:15.559
<v Speaker 3>that's a problem. And here Andy just happened to be

653
00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:19.880
<v Speaker 3>that one person who's being manipulated and tells a story

654
00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:21.760
<v Speaker 3>that ends up getting him in big trouble.

655
00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:25.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like you just mentioned, that's what a lot of

656
00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:28.039
<v Speaker 2>people who have falsely confessed have said that if the

657
00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:30.039
<v Speaker 2>police lie to them and tell them stuff like oh,

658
00:35:30.039 --> 00:35:31.960
<v Speaker 2>we have a witness who saw you do this, or

659
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:34.440
<v Speaker 2>we have your DNA on there, that even if it's

660
00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:37.239
<v Speaker 2>a blatant live they start questioning themselves. And they've even

661
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:39.679
<v Speaker 2>said that they reached the point where're like, well, maybe

662
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:41.719
<v Speaker 2>I did do it, but I blocked it out of

663
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:44.119
<v Speaker 2>my memory and I just can't recall it, so maybe

664
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:46.239
<v Speaker 2>I did it, And that's why they decide to confess.

665
00:35:46.360 --> 00:35:48.880
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, that's why people doing it, even if they

666
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:51.639
<v Speaker 2>originally go in there being one hundred percent sure that no,

667
00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:54.199
<v Speaker 2>I did not do this. That if you've got a

668
00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:57.480
<v Speaker 2>skilled interrogator, they can start questioning themselves and maybe think,

669
00:35:57.559 --> 00:35:59.159
<v Speaker 2>well maybe I did this after all.

670
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:01.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's either that or they have this. It's either

671
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:04.199
<v Speaker 3>that or they have this idea that I will tell

672
00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:06.239
<v Speaker 3>them whatever they want to hear. Right now, I am exhausted,

673
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:09.840
<v Speaker 3>I'm scared, I'm tired, i'm grieving, I'm hurting. I need

674
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:11.519
<v Speaker 3>to get out of here. So I'm going to tell

675
00:36:11.559 --> 00:36:14.639
<v Speaker 3>them whatever they want to hear. Because clearly it's a lie.

676
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:17.639
<v Speaker 3>Everyone will know it's a lie, and I'll get a

677
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:20.360
<v Speaker 3>good attorney who can prove it's a lie. That's not

678
00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:23.000
<v Speaker 3>how our justice system works. So either they convince them

679
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:27.079
<v Speaker 3>that they actually might just not remember right, and they

680
00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:30.320
<v Speaker 3>start to actually orchestrate in their head a reality where

681
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:33.000
<v Speaker 3>maybe they could have done it because they trust the

682
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:35.559
<v Speaker 3>police and they trust that what they're telling them is true,

683
00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:38.320
<v Speaker 3>or they get to a point where they say, screw it,

684
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:40.039
<v Speaker 3>I'll tell you whatever you want to hear, and then

685
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:40.960
<v Speaker 3>I got to get out of here.

686
00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:44.639
<v Speaker 2>Let's also not forget that when Andy was first charged

687
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:47.079
<v Speaker 2>with the murders in nineteen eighty nine, the RC and

688
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:50.480
<v Speaker 2>P had secretly recorded a phone conversation between Andy and

689
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:53.480
<v Speaker 2>and Donna Kelly. Even though Andy did not have any

690
00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:56.199
<v Speaker 2>idea that he was being investigated as a suspect at

691
00:36:56.199 --> 00:36:59.199
<v Speaker 2>that point, he still did not confess or reveal anything

692
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:03.159
<v Speaker 2>incriminating this conversation, which I think is further evidence that

693
00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:06.840
<v Speaker 2>as mister Big confession was bogus. I know that Andy's

694
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:09.320
<v Speaker 2>third trial was halted before it reached the jury, but

695
00:37:09.559 --> 00:37:12.000
<v Speaker 2>even though the case against him was fraught with problems

696
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:15.320
<v Speaker 2>and the defense tried to discredit his confession, there was

697
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.519
<v Speaker 2>always a risk that the jury still could have found

698
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:20.960
<v Speaker 2>him guilty. Back in two thousand and one, the general

699
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:23.280
<v Speaker 2>public was not as well versed on the subject of

700
00:37:23.320 --> 00:37:25.719
<v Speaker 2>false confessions, so they still might have put a lot

701
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:28.159
<v Speaker 2>of credence into the fact that Andy admitted to the

702
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:31.320
<v Speaker 2>murders on tape. However, I do have to credit Crown

703
00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:34.639
<v Speaker 2>Prosecutor Gil McKinnon for not letting things get to that

704
00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:37.920
<v Speaker 2>point and staying the murder charges against Andy after he

705
00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:42.000
<v Speaker 2>learned that all the DNA evidence excluded him. McKinnon was

706
00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:45.280
<v Speaker 2>not the prosecutor at Andy's first two trials and stated

707
00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:47.840
<v Speaker 2>that he just had this uncomfortable feeling that he might

708
00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:50.199
<v Speaker 2>be putting the wrong man away, which is why he

709
00:37:50.199 --> 00:37:52.000
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to put the case into the hands of

710
00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:55.800
<v Speaker 2>the jury. Believe me, I've seen enough wrongful conviction cases

711
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:58.320
<v Speaker 2>to note that it can usually be difficult, if not

712
00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:01.719
<v Speaker 2>outright impossible, to get a prosecuting attorney to admit to

713
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:05.039
<v Speaker 2>a mistake and drop the charges against a defendant, even

714
00:38:05.079 --> 00:38:08.360
<v Speaker 2>if the evidence overwhelmingly points towards them being innocent.

715
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:14.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Absolutely, when you look at the idea that someone

716
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:18.880
<v Speaker 3>has been convicted, that means multiple players in our justice

717
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:24.519
<v Speaker 3>system have done an entire case, an entire trial, and

718
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:27.840
<v Speaker 3>convicted an individual, thinking and believing that they have done

719
00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:32.000
<v Speaker 3>their best, brightest professional work to date right. No one

720
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:34.360
<v Speaker 3>wants to step back and say, did we make a mistake.

721
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:38.039
<v Speaker 3>The mentality is we do our job, we get it right.

722
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:41.800
<v Speaker 3>We're convicting that person, we provided justice. We're done. And

723
00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:45.039
<v Speaker 3>to then ask them to question it. They struggle to

724
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:47.960
<v Speaker 3>question it throughout the process. To start with right, they

725
00:38:48.119 --> 00:38:50.599
<v Speaker 3>lock in on somebody and they just double down to

726
00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:53.800
<v Speaker 3>prove it. But once they've been convicted, it's like this

727
00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:57.400
<v Speaker 3>official check market says, we got it right. Look the

728
00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:01.159
<v Speaker 3>jury thought we got it right. We know we're correct

729
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:04.199
<v Speaker 3>in our assessment. So then to ask everyone in that

730
00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:07.079
<v Speaker 3>process to step back and look at could they have

731
00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:11.639
<v Speaker 3>gotten it wrong? It's nearly impossible. Judges don't want to

732
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:15.480
<v Speaker 3>take on cases where another judge has signed off. Prosecutors

733
00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:19.239
<v Speaker 3>get really you know, overwhelmed, and they think, wait, they're

734
00:39:19.239 --> 00:39:22.960
<v Speaker 3>going to show that I falsely imprisoned somebody. Heck, no,

735
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:24.960
<v Speaker 3>I would have never taken the case if I didn't

736
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:27.960
<v Speaker 3>believe that person did it, So no way is it

737
00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:31.000
<v Speaker 3>that I'm wrong you know, the only people that are

738
00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:35.039
<v Speaker 3>often advocating for someone's innocence is the person themselves and

739
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:38.480
<v Speaker 3>a defense attorney. And clearly you say, well, everyone in

740
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:41.880
<v Speaker 3>prison is innocent, right, every defense attorney wants the money

741
00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:44.840
<v Speaker 3>to defend somebody and say that they're wrongfully convicted. But

742
00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:48.719
<v Speaker 3>that's not the truth. We know that so many people

743
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:53.519
<v Speaker 3>because if eyewitness identification, false confessions, informants, all of this,

744
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:58.960
<v Speaker 3>you know, prosecutorial and police misconduct, faulty forensic science, all

745
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:01.559
<v Speaker 3>of that puts people well wigh when they didn't do

746
00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:04.320
<v Speaker 3>the crime they're being held accountable for. And so we

747
00:40:04.519 --> 00:40:06.519
<v Speaker 3>have to be in a position where we're willing to

748
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:09.760
<v Speaker 3>say we can get it wrong, and I'm willing to

749
00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:13.320
<v Speaker 3>look at it again. And you do see integrity units

750
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:16.679
<v Speaker 3>popping up, especially in the United States, where integrity units

751
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:21.199
<v Speaker 3>are being hired by prosecutors' offices saying review some of

752
00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:24.119
<v Speaker 3>these cases where they're claiming these are wrongful convictions. Could

753
00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:26.320
<v Speaker 3>we have messed up? And when you have someone who

754
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:29.760
<v Speaker 3>has a high moral and ethical bar who's willing to say,

755
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:32.719
<v Speaker 3>I don't always get it right. I'm human, I make mistakes,

756
00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:35.400
<v Speaker 3>and I'm not the only player in this game. Police

757
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:39.400
<v Speaker 3>give me information, you know, the witnesses give me information,

758
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:41.840
<v Speaker 3>and I trust it at the time. But if you

759
00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:45.039
<v Speaker 3>can prove to me that this is incorrect information or

760
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:48.199
<v Speaker 3>prove that this person couldn't have done it, I'm human

761
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:51.639
<v Speaker 3>and I'm willing to tell you I messed up. That's huge.

762
00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:54.320
<v Speaker 3>There are people, there are units out there that'll do it,

763
00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:57.920
<v Speaker 3>but very rarely do you see teams that are willing

764
00:40:57.960 --> 00:40:59.320
<v Speaker 3>to say, let's look at this again.

765
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:02.840
<v Speaker 1>They seem to go from the perspective of like the

766
00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:07.119
<v Speaker 1>sunken cost fallacy, where we have invested so much time

767
00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:10.920
<v Speaker 1>and energy and a lot of our reputations into these cases,

768
00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:16.400
<v Speaker 1>and I think the fear of what lies beyond when

769
00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:21.360
<v Speaker 1>they actually examine the cases, when you see prosecutors retry

770
00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:24.719
<v Speaker 1>and retry and retry, and it's like, why don't you

771
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:27.280
<v Speaker 1>look into this case a little bit deeper? But it

772
00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:32.280
<v Speaker 1>becomes more about that time invested, reputation invested, and how

773
00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:35.559
<v Speaker 1>it will appear if they lose, because it all does

774
00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:39.039
<v Speaker 1>come down to the numbers, especially with prosecutors, and there

775
00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:43.519
<v Speaker 1>should be other motivations that underscore why people are doing

776
00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:46.079
<v Speaker 1>what they're doing, and like what actually just brought up

777
00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:48.840
<v Speaker 1>it's great when they have these integrity units which are

778
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:51.800
<v Speaker 1>going to provide some checks and balances with regards to

779
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:55.239
<v Speaker 1>these situations. And we do see the odd case where

780
00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:58.039
<v Speaker 1>you see a prosecutor go, WHOA, I think I got

781
00:41:58.039 --> 00:42:00.800
<v Speaker 1>that wrong. What was the conic, Junior.

782
00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:04.400
<v Speaker 2>Yes, that was the murder of Crystal Champagne by a

783
00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:07.519
<v Speaker 2>wrongfully convicted man named Damon Thibodeau. And that was one

784
00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:11.280
<v Speaker 2>where the prosecutor, Paula Konic Junior, actually helped out the

785
00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:14.519
<v Speaker 2>defense when they reinvestigated the case and came to the conclusion, Yep,

786
00:42:14.599 --> 00:42:16.719
<v Speaker 2>this is an innocent man. We should release him. And

787
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:19.039
<v Speaker 2>he was willing to admit he made a mistake and

788
00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:21.280
<v Speaker 2>it didn't ruin his career because he has been re

789
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:24.239
<v Speaker 2>elected I think seven or eight times over the past

790
00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:27.239
<v Speaker 2>three decades, so making this mistake has not caused the

791
00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:29.320
<v Speaker 2>voters to turn on him and decide that he should

792
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:30.239
<v Speaker 2>be run out of office.

793
00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:34.760
<v Speaker 1>Sadly, so much focus was put on the wrongful conviction

794
00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:38.239
<v Speaker 1>of Andy Rose that the two victims burned in Andrea

795
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:42.239
<v Speaker 1>almost seemed to be an afterthought in this story. However,

796
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:45.800
<v Speaker 1>their missing personal possessions makes me believe that robbery may

797
00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:48.840
<v Speaker 1>have been the primary motive for the crime, particularly since

798
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:52.880
<v Speaker 1>there's no indication that Andrea was sexually assaulted. Usage of

799
00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:55.679
<v Speaker 1>the travelers checks gives off the impression that the killer

800
00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:57.880
<v Speaker 1>may not have been from the area where the murders

801
00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:00.800
<v Speaker 1>took place and was just passing through, so Burned and

802
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:03.559
<v Speaker 1>Andrea were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

803
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:06.960
<v Speaker 1>We do know that the perpetrator was traveling south through

804
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:10.239
<v Speaker 1>British Columbia when they used the travelers checks, so for

805
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:12.760
<v Speaker 1>all we know, they could have been heading towards the

806
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:17.039
<v Speaker 1>US border and eventually drove into Washington State. After all,

807
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:19.960
<v Speaker 1>the RCMP performed a check on all pickup trucks in

808
00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:23.159
<v Speaker 1>British Columbia which matched the description of the truck that

809
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:26.960
<v Speaker 1>the killer drove, but they came up empty. And since

810
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:29.960
<v Speaker 1>the witnesses who interacted with this man described him as

811
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:33.559
<v Speaker 1>having a slight American accent, perhaps he was not even Canadian.

812
00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:36.559
<v Speaker 1>It sounds like the last reported sighting it Burned in

813
00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:39.760
<v Speaker 1>Andrea took place in Dawson Creek, which is about one

814
00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:42.519
<v Speaker 1>hundred and thirty kilometers from where their bodies were found,

815
00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:45.840
<v Speaker 1>so we have no idea if they first crossed paths

816
00:43:45.880 --> 00:43:48.280
<v Speaker 1>with their killer there or at another location.

817
00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:53.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly. We're not sure that that's even where they

818
00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:56.639
<v Speaker 3>were killed, right or where they were first finding this

819
00:43:56.800 --> 00:44:00.559
<v Speaker 3>individual in the first place. So we don't know a lot,

820
00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:04.000
<v Speaker 3>but we do know about those travelers checks and that truck.

821
00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:06.320
<v Speaker 3>And so when you look at the fact that we

822
00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:09.559
<v Speaker 3>can't identify who that was, to me, that is the

823
00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:13.440
<v Speaker 3>person that you have to find. Andy didn't have transportation.

824
00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:16.320
<v Speaker 3>No one came forward to say Andy burrowed any kind

825
00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:19.880
<v Speaker 3>of vehicles from them. Madonna and Tom couldn't describe how

826
00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:22.559
<v Speaker 3>he got a vehicle like that. And so when we

827
00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:26.119
<v Speaker 3>look and especially at the behavior of the individual who's

828
00:44:26.239 --> 00:44:30.599
<v Speaker 3>using the Travelers checks, we have a personality, We have

829
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:34.559
<v Speaker 3>almost this picture of who this person would be, and

830
00:44:34.599 --> 00:44:38.280
<v Speaker 3>after all this work, they simply cannot locate the individual.

831
00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:43.119
<v Speaker 2>We've covered so many cases from several decades ago in

832
00:44:43.159 --> 00:44:46.480
<v Speaker 2>which victims went missing or murder, will hitchhiking, and I'll

833
00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:49.079
<v Speaker 2>once again reiterate that it was just a much different time.

834
00:44:49.960 --> 00:44:52.960
<v Speaker 2>It's pretty remarkable to look at the timeline of Burned

835
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:55.880
<v Speaker 2>and Andrey as nearly two month treks through Canada, as

836
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:59.840
<v Speaker 2>they literally traveled thousands of kilometers through multiple provinces and

837
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:02.719
<v Speaker 2>at least one American state, and their primary mode of

838
00:45:02.760 --> 00:45:06.840
<v Speaker 2>transportation was hitchhiking. This story is a bit reminiscent of

839
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:09.800
<v Speaker 2>another case I covered on episode number two twelve of

840
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:13.039
<v Speaker 2>The Trail Went Cold about the murders of Marie Lillienburg

841
00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:17.159
<v Speaker 2>and Maria Viln, two Swedish nationals who were murderable hitchhiking

842
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:21.280
<v Speaker 2>through California, and eerily enough, that crime took place in

843
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:24.239
<v Speaker 2>July of nineteen eighty three, less than three months before

844
00:45:24.280 --> 00:45:27.199
<v Speaker 2>this one. That's not to say that the same killer

845
00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:30.519
<v Speaker 2>was responsible for this crime, but in both cases, the

846
00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:33.800
<v Speaker 2>original media coverage put a heavy emphasis on the cultural

847
00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:37.960
<v Speaker 2>differences between Europe and North America, as hitchhiking was considered

848
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:40.760
<v Speaker 2>to be a safer form of transportation in the victim's

849
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:43.960
<v Speaker 2>host countries at that time, which is why they had

850
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:47.440
<v Speaker 2>no qualms about doing it when they traveled overseas and

851
00:45:47.599 --> 00:45:49.960
<v Speaker 2>speaking of the world being a much different place back

852
00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:52.960
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen eighty three, the man who murdered Burnt and

853
00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:57.199
<v Speaker 2>Andrea sounds like an incredibly lucky individual because they managed

854
00:45:57.239 --> 00:45:59.360
<v Speaker 2>to get away with using a traveler's check with a

855
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:02.400
<v Speaker 2>woman's signing. Nature on it no less than five times,

856
00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:04.639
<v Speaker 2>and none of the witnesses who saw him or his

857
00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:08.480
<v Speaker 2>pickup truck managed to take down the license number. Now,

858
00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:10.639
<v Speaker 2>what's interesting is that if you watch the fifth of

859
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:14.320
<v Speaker 2>State episode, they showcased two separate composite sketches of what

860
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:18.079
<v Speaker 2>appeared to be two separate men. However, it's not entirely

861
00:46:18.119 --> 00:46:20.519
<v Speaker 2>clear to me if two men were actually seen together

862
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:23.840
<v Speaker 2>cashing these checks, or if the descriptions provided by the

863
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:27.320
<v Speaker 2>different attendants from the different service stations were so divergent

864
00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:32.119
<v Speaker 2>that the authorities felt the need to create two separate sketches. Honestly,

865
00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:34.599
<v Speaker 2>given that it would have been difficult for one killer

866
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:37.519
<v Speaker 2>to control both victims, it would not surprise me if

867
00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:40.440
<v Speaker 2>more than one man was involved in this crime. But

868
00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:43.880
<v Speaker 2>whoever the perpetrator or perpetrators might have been, it sounds

869
00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:46.960
<v Speaker 2>like they completely disappeared off the radar after the last

870
00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:48.360
<v Speaker 2>travelers check was used.

871
00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:53.320
<v Speaker 3>What's really interesting when you have these two different attendants

872
00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:56.079
<v Speaker 3>who are telling you, right, they're at different service stations,

873
00:46:56.239 --> 00:46:59.880
<v Speaker 3>but they're telling you about different encounters with these individuals

874
00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:04.079
<v Speaker 3>using the checks. Right, two different sketches come forward, It's

875
00:47:04.119 --> 00:47:09.239
<v Speaker 3>possible multiple things are happening. That the memory's just simply wrong, right.

876
00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:12.719
<v Speaker 3>There could have been two people there. But we go

877
00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:15.360
<v Speaker 3>down diatribes every single time we talk about IWANN to

878
00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:18.599
<v Speaker 3>S identification. It's very possible that if you ask me

879
00:47:18.679 --> 00:47:23.760
<v Speaker 3>to recount someone coming into my store thirty minutes later,

880
00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:26.440
<v Speaker 3>in all honesty, I won't be able to provide an

881
00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:29.360
<v Speaker 3>accurate description. Think about how many people come in and

882
00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:31.559
<v Speaker 3>out of a gas station. It's very similar to the

883
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:34.039
<v Speaker 3>retail store that I own and I work in. I

884
00:47:34.039 --> 00:47:35.519
<v Speaker 3>see people all the time. They're like, oh, yeah, we

885
00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:38.920
<v Speaker 3>were in yesterday, and I go, oh, okay, you know,

886
00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:42.280
<v Speaker 3>you see hundreds of people a day, and so if

887
00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:47.719
<v Speaker 3>they were asked to recall that information, it is possible

888
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:51.199
<v Speaker 3>it's the same individual coming into both service stations and

889
00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:53.800
<v Speaker 3>they're describing the person they saw to the best of

890
00:47:53.800 --> 00:47:57.280
<v Speaker 3>their ability. But both recollections are just off right. They

891
00:47:57.280 --> 00:47:59.920
<v Speaker 3>don't match each other because one or both of the

892
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:04.679
<v Speaker 3>people recalling the facts don't have the proper factual information.

893
00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:07.519
<v Speaker 3>That's simply the way our brains work. It's not a

894
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:11.480
<v Speaker 3>video camera. You're asking someone to recall these little details,

895
00:48:11.480 --> 00:48:14.159
<v Speaker 3>and so I think it could have been two different people.

896
00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:17.239
<v Speaker 3>But it's very possible. Those two attendants down the road

897
00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:20.559
<v Speaker 3>were asked to recreate who they thought they saw, and

898
00:48:20.599 --> 00:48:23.360
<v Speaker 3>they just came up with two very different versions of

899
00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:27.840
<v Speaker 3>the same individual. It's really scary because this person I

900
00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:31.519
<v Speaker 3>believe killed two people. The way that he acted, I

901
00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:33.559
<v Speaker 3>almost feel like he had done it before because there

902
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:36.760
<v Speaker 3>was such confidence, not only with the you know, getting

903
00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:39.960
<v Speaker 3>these people in his car and his truck, but also

904
00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:42.280
<v Speaker 3>the way that he had such ease using their checks

905
00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:44.199
<v Speaker 3>and not even worrying that he was going to get caught.

906
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:47.920
<v Speaker 3>It seems like someone who's very experienced and or who

907
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:50.039
<v Speaker 3>had an accomplice.

908
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:52.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I am inclined to believe it was just one

909
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:54.960
<v Speaker 2>man and that all these attendants saw the same man

910
00:48:55.239 --> 00:48:58.440
<v Speaker 2>and just provided different descriptions because of faulty memories, and

911
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:01.199
<v Speaker 2>the authorities probably thought, well, we don't know which sketch

912
00:49:01.239 --> 00:49:03.639
<v Speaker 2>is the most accurate, but to cover all our bases,

913
00:49:03.719 --> 00:49:06.519
<v Speaker 2>let's just release both of them publicly anyway in case

914
00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:07.800
<v Speaker 2>one of them turns out to be right.

915
00:49:08.679 --> 00:49:12.519
<v Speaker 1>For years, the most promising alternate suspect was vance Hill,

916
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:15.880
<v Speaker 1>but since the DNA evidence on the bloody genes did

917
00:49:15.880 --> 00:49:19.039
<v Speaker 1>not match him either, it sounds like the authorities no

918
00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:22.679
<v Speaker 1>longer belief he was involved. The ironic thing is that

919
00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:25.960
<v Speaker 1>the evidence against Vance was pretty much exactly the same

920
00:49:26.039 --> 00:49:28.960
<v Speaker 1>as the evidence used to convict Andy, as all we

921
00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:31.960
<v Speaker 1>had were the claims from his former wife, who said

922
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:35.039
<v Speaker 1>that he once made a drunken confession to the murders,

923
00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:39.599
<v Speaker 1>and in both cases, the female witness never willingly came

924
00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:42.800
<v Speaker 1>forward with this information, as they only shared their story

925
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:46.679
<v Speaker 1>with another person who then decided to contact the police.

926
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:49.599
<v Speaker 1>The key difference is that since vance Hill died back

927
00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:52.559
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen eighty five, he never got to refute any

928
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:56.119
<v Speaker 1>of the allegations his wife made against him. Vance had

929
00:49:56.119 --> 00:49:59.239
<v Speaker 1>been living in British Columbia for sixteen years and then

930
00:49:59.320 --> 00:50:02.239
<v Speaker 1>just suddenly to decided to relocate to the United States

931
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:05.360
<v Speaker 1>in the weeks following the murders. Shortly after, he was

932
00:50:05.480 --> 00:50:08.400
<v Speaker 1>arrested by the RCMP and served time in jail on

933
00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:12.280
<v Speaker 1>an unrelated charge That might look suspicious on the surface,

934
00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:15.440
<v Speaker 1>but given the Vance's wife and children had decided to

935
00:50:15.480 --> 00:50:18.880
<v Speaker 1>return to California, you can understand him wanting to move

936
00:50:18.920 --> 00:50:22.159
<v Speaker 1>there to be closer to them. Even if you discount

937
00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:25.000
<v Speaker 1>the DNA evidence, there are still a number of holes

938
00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:28.199
<v Speaker 1>in the theory that Bance was the killer. Willardeine Hill

939
00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:30.840
<v Speaker 1>said that her husband told her that he picked up

940
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:34.199
<v Speaker 1>a male and female hitchhiker at a bar in chetwind Well.

941
00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:36.760
<v Speaker 1>The problem is that Vance was living in Prince George

942
00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:40.159
<v Speaker 1>at the time, which is three hundred kilometers south, so

943
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:42.400
<v Speaker 1>what would you be doing in chetwind to begin with.

944
00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:47.320
<v Speaker 1>During her statement to the RCMP, Willardeine specifically said that

945
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:50.280
<v Speaker 1>the hitchhikers asked Vance for a ride to Dawson Creek.

946
00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:53.960
<v Speaker 1>While the last confirmed sighting of Burned and Andrea took

947
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:57.360
<v Speaker 1>place at in Dawson Creek, It's located one hundred kilometers

948
00:50:57.400 --> 00:51:01.039
<v Speaker 1>east of chetwind whereas their bodies were found thirty kilometers

949
00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:04.480
<v Speaker 1>west in the opposite direction, So it makes no sense

950
00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:06.599
<v Speaker 1>for the couple to want to ride to Dawson Creek,

951
00:51:06.760 --> 00:51:10.360
<v Speaker 1>particularly when they were heading south towards Vancouver in order

952
00:51:10.360 --> 00:51:14.719
<v Speaker 1>to catch a flight home days later. Investigators did acknowledge

953
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:17.599
<v Speaker 1>that even though Willadine got the time period in locations

954
00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:20.880
<v Speaker 1>of the murders correct, during her statement, she also shared

955
00:51:20.920 --> 00:51:24.239
<v Speaker 1>a number of details which were inaccurate, though to be fair,

956
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:27.400
<v Speaker 1>she was only passing along a story she'd supposedly heard

957
00:51:27.400 --> 00:51:31.239
<v Speaker 1>from her husband thirteen years earlier. It sounds like Vance

958
00:51:31.400 --> 00:51:33.480
<v Speaker 1>was driving a pickup truck when he lived in British

959
00:51:33.519 --> 00:51:37.039
<v Speaker 1>Columbia in nineteen eighty three, though it's unclear if it

960
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:40.639
<v Speaker 1>was a late nineteen sixties Chevrolet style model which matched

961
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:43.760
<v Speaker 1>the description of the killer's truck. But it does not

962
00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:46.599
<v Speaker 1>sound like Vance matched the description of the man seen

963
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:49.920
<v Speaker 1>using Andrea's travelers checks, as he was believed to be

964
00:51:49.960 --> 00:51:52.719
<v Speaker 1>around forty years old, whereas Vance would have been about

965
00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:53.840
<v Speaker 1>fifty five at the time.

966
00:51:55.400 --> 00:51:57.559
<v Speaker 3>Well, I mean that's really hard too. I mean, aging

967
00:51:57.639 --> 00:52:00.519
<v Speaker 3>somebody's very difficult unless he had a receding hairline. And

968
00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:03.400
<v Speaker 3>you know, even if he had fully gray hair, A

969
00:52:03.400 --> 00:52:05.679
<v Speaker 3>lot of people at age thirty five have gray hair,

970
00:52:05.800 --> 00:52:09.360
<v Speaker 3>you know, and so forty fifty five, I don't know,

971
00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:14.559
<v Speaker 3>that's really difficult to nail down somebody's age. Dance does

972
00:52:14.599 --> 00:52:17.039
<v Speaker 3>seem like a very good fit to this crime. And

973
00:52:17.519 --> 00:52:20.079
<v Speaker 3>like you said, are there holes in her story? Are

974
00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:23.599
<v Speaker 3>there things that don't necessarily make sense? Yes, But remember

975
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:28.079
<v Speaker 3>she's recalling this thirteen years later. Her husband had written

976
00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:30.880
<v Speaker 3>a suicide note that she found that had all of

977
00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:33.320
<v Speaker 3>these details in there, and she doesn't bring it up

978
00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:36.639
<v Speaker 3>because God knows, you know, that's scary. She's overwhelmed, she

979
00:52:36.679 --> 00:52:38.320
<v Speaker 3>doesn't know what to do. He wants to end his

980
00:52:38.360 --> 00:52:41.599
<v Speaker 3>own life, so she doesn't mention it. And then eventually,

981
00:52:41.719 --> 00:52:45.000
<v Speaker 3>when he does die, he doesn't mention it in those

982
00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:48.920
<v Speaker 3>letters right of what happened to these two, But she's

983
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:51.559
<v Speaker 3>kind of haunted by the fact that at some point

984
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:55.039
<v Speaker 3>he basically had a written confession that he had killed

985
00:52:55.039 --> 00:52:58.320
<v Speaker 3>these two individuals. And so I think she's doing the

986
00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:03.800
<v Speaker 3>best of her recollection to provide truthful information. Did he

987
00:53:04.039 --> 00:53:08.559
<v Speaker 3>even get all the facts right? Is she recalling what

988
00:53:08.599 --> 00:53:11.960
<v Speaker 3>she saw accurately? I think she has enough information to

989
00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:15.639
<v Speaker 3>definitely put a red flag on Vance and to make

990
00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:18.440
<v Speaker 3>him seem as though he's a pretty good fit. He

991
00:53:18.559 --> 00:53:21.320
<v Speaker 3>was driving a truck at the time. I'd be really

992
00:53:21.320 --> 00:53:24.000
<v Speaker 3>interested to know his mo of his personality. Is he

993
00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:27.159
<v Speaker 3>calm and collected? Is he charming? Was he somebody who

994
00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:29.440
<v Speaker 3>is clean cut and well put together that would fit

995
00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:32.480
<v Speaker 3>that description of who we know likely picked these kiddos up.

996
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:38.440
<v Speaker 3>And you know, to me, I believe her.

997
00:53:39.159 --> 00:53:42.119
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's easy to assume that Vance's eventual suicide was

998
00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:44.679
<v Speaker 2>the result of being overwhelmed with guilt over what he

999
00:53:44.719 --> 00:53:47.239
<v Speaker 2>had done. He was going through a number of serious

1000
00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:49.199
<v Speaker 2>issues at that time, such as the end of his

1001
00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:52.320
<v Speaker 2>marriage and chronic alcoholism, so I'm sure he could have

1002
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:55.320
<v Speaker 2>chosen to take his own life for other reasons. It's

1003
00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:57.000
<v Speaker 2>odd that he would be willing to make a full

1004
00:53:57.039 --> 00:53:59.719
<v Speaker 2>confession about these murders to his wife but then not

1005
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:03.440
<v Speaker 2>make any mention of them at all in his suicide notes. Look,

1006
00:54:03.480 --> 00:54:06.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying that Willodein completely fabricated this entire story

1007
00:54:06.920 --> 00:54:09.800
<v Speaker 2>about the confession, as is possible that Vance may have

1008
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:13.320
<v Speaker 2>become so intoxicated one night that he convinced himself that

1009
00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:15.800
<v Speaker 2>he committed a double murder and then decided to blab

1010
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:18.880
<v Speaker 2>about it. Willidin even said that she thought it was

1011
00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:22.239
<v Speaker 2>nothing more than one of her husband's quote unquote drunken fantasies,

1012
00:54:22.519 --> 00:54:24.679
<v Speaker 2>which seems to indicate that he did that sort of

1013
00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:28.079
<v Speaker 2>thing all the time whenever he was inebriated. All the

1014
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:31.320
<v Speaker 2>speculation about Vance being no longer even be necessary since

1015
00:54:31.360 --> 00:54:34.480
<v Speaker 2>the DNA testing excluded him, and I think it's likely

1016
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:37.079
<v Speaker 2>that the real perpetrator was someone who has never even

1017
00:54:37.119 --> 00:54:39.480
<v Speaker 2>popped up on the radar as a potential suspect.

1018
00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:42.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's possible too. When we have the idea that

1019
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:44.719
<v Speaker 3>oh wait, DNA didn't.

1020
00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:47.480
<v Speaker 2>Exclude him, it did exclude him, like it didn't match

1021
00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:48.639
<v Speaker 2>the DNA on the genes.

1022
00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:51.159
<v Speaker 3>Well, then when you look at that, I mean, you

1023
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:54.920
<v Speaker 3>have this idea that Vance likely could not have been

1024
00:54:55.000 --> 00:54:57.719
<v Speaker 3>the perpetrator. And or if we go with that idea

1025
00:54:57.719 --> 00:54:59.800
<v Speaker 3>of could there have been a second person, Maybe it's

1026
00:54:59.840 --> 00:55:03.199
<v Speaker 3>the second person's DNA, but I'm more likely to think

1027
00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:06.519
<v Speaker 3>that the killer killed alone. And so if those genes

1028
00:55:06.639 --> 00:55:10.320
<v Speaker 3>are linked to the two victims but not to Vance,

1029
00:55:10.760 --> 00:55:12.880
<v Speaker 3>then now we have to go say, Okay, who's this

1030
00:55:13.079 --> 00:55:17.280
<v Speaker 3>third person? Who? It's not Andy, it's not Vance. Who

1031
00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:19.800
<v Speaker 3>else could have been the suspect? And what's crazy is

1032
00:55:19.840 --> 00:55:23.039
<v Speaker 3>at the time, when you have hitchhiking as a common

1033
00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:28.639
<v Speaker 3>mode of transportation, it could have been anyone. It could

1034
00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:30.880
<v Speaker 3>have been anyone. It could have been someone visiting from

1035
00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:33.599
<v Speaker 3>the US and traveling through. It could have been some

1036
00:55:33.800 --> 00:55:36.519
<v Speaker 3>you know, someone who's a local where the killings took place.

1037
00:55:36.519 --> 00:55:39.280
<v Speaker 3>It could have been someone driving across the you know,

1038
00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:43.480
<v Speaker 3>across Canada. So it's nearly impossible to say, how do

1039
00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:47.519
<v Speaker 3>we look for this generic description of a truck at

1040
00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:50.599
<v Speaker 3>a man who's aged forty. I mean, you're basically describing

1041
00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:54.760
<v Speaker 3>a large portion of the population. And so it's one

1042
00:55:54.760 --> 00:55:57.440
<v Speaker 3>of those cases where, if it's not these suspects that

1043
00:55:57.519 --> 00:56:00.360
<v Speaker 3>are coming forward, your net is so wide it would

1044
00:56:00.360 --> 00:56:04.360
<v Speaker 3>take something like genetic genealogy or phenotyping or something that

1045
00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:07.480
<v Speaker 3>gave a face or a name to that DNA that

1046
00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:09.280
<v Speaker 3>was found on the genes to make a breakthrough.

1047
00:56:10.599 --> 00:56:13.559
<v Speaker 1>The good news is that authorities do have DNA on

1048
00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:16.960
<v Speaker 1>the bloodstained genes that belongs to the killer, so there's

1049
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:21.559
<v Speaker 1>always the chance that genetic genealogy could identify him. In fact,

1050
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:24.599
<v Speaker 1>nearly five years ago, this exact scenario took place in

1051
00:56:24.679 --> 00:56:28.360
<v Speaker 1>another infamous wrongful conviction case from Canada, and that was

1052
00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:31.519
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen eighty four murder of nine year old Christine Jeffa.

1053
00:56:32.280 --> 00:56:35.119
<v Speaker 1>An innocent man named Guy Paul Moran wound up being

1054
00:56:35.119 --> 00:56:38.519
<v Speaker 1>wrongfully convicted for the crime until he was exonerated by

1055
00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:42.199
<v Speaker 1>DNA testing, and in October of twenty twenty, it was

1056
00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:46.079
<v Speaker 1>announced that genetic genealogy had linked DNA evidence from the

1057
00:56:46.159 --> 00:56:50.239
<v Speaker 1>victim's underwear to another suspect named Calvin Hoover. Even though

1058
00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:53.559
<v Speaker 1>Hoover had died in twenty fifteen. This provided beyond a

1059
00:56:53.599 --> 00:56:56.320
<v Speaker 1>shadow of a doubt that he was the killer, so

1060
00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:59.639
<v Speaker 1>the case could officially be closed. The same thing made

1061
00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:03.280
<v Speaker 1>very well happened in this case someday, as genetic genealogy

1062
00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:07.039
<v Speaker 1>can make it possible to positively identify burned and Andrea's killer,

1063
00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:10.920
<v Speaker 1>even if they are already deceased. So until this case

1064
00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:14.119
<v Speaker 1>is solved, it will continue to remain a tragic situation

1065
00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:18.800
<v Speaker 1>for everyone involved. Andy Rose is currently seventy six years old,

1066
00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:21.400
<v Speaker 1>and even though he's been a free man for over

1067
00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:25.000
<v Speaker 1>two decades, I'm not sure if he was ever compensated

1068
00:57:25.079 --> 00:57:28.519
<v Speaker 1>for his wrongful incarceration. Well, he'd always lived a fairly

1069
00:57:28.559 --> 00:57:31.440
<v Speaker 1>difficult life. It sounds like things were going fairly well

1070
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:33.639
<v Speaker 1>for him in nineteen eighty nine, since he had a

1071
00:57:33.679 --> 00:57:37.000
<v Speaker 1>stable job, a stable relationship, and had just welcomed his

1072
00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:41.079
<v Speaker 1>first child into the world. But then his entire existence

1073
00:57:41.159 --> 00:57:43.360
<v Speaker 1>was yanked away from him when he was charged with

1074
00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:46.679
<v Speaker 1>the murder that he didn't commit. If this hadn't happened,

1075
00:57:46.760 --> 00:57:49.960
<v Speaker 1>who knows how Andy's life ultimately would have gone. But

1076
00:57:50.039 --> 00:57:52.000
<v Speaker 1>I hope he's found some semblance of peace.

1077
00:57:53.199 --> 00:57:58.440
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, it's really complex when you think about everything this cost.

1078
00:57:58.599 --> 00:58:03.000
<v Speaker 3>Andy had this woman come forward who said, hey, he

1079
00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:05.239
<v Speaker 3>should have in my house. He was bloody, he said

1080
00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:08.760
<v Speaker 3>he killed these two people, and that's Andy saying that's

1081
00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:11.760
<v Speaker 3>not what happened. I never did that, And somehow he

1082
00:58:11.800 --> 00:58:14.559
<v Speaker 3>gets in this trap where eventually he even says, hey,

1083
00:58:14.599 --> 00:58:17.760
<v Speaker 3>I did do it. And when it's proven he could

1084
00:58:17.800 --> 00:58:22.239
<v Speaker 3>not have been the perpetrator, Andy is released and quote free,

1085
00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:26.039
<v Speaker 3>But how free are you when you've been behind bars

1086
00:58:26.079 --> 00:58:29.400
<v Speaker 3>and you've been labeled a murderer and you've lost all

1087
00:58:29.480 --> 00:58:32.000
<v Speaker 3>of the things that you had tried to build, no

1088
00:58:32.039 --> 00:58:35.639
<v Speaker 3>matter how big those things are. Again, Andy had overcome.

1089
00:58:35.840 --> 00:58:39.039
<v Speaker 3>Andy was trying to move forward. He had good things

1090
00:58:39.079 --> 00:58:41.599
<v Speaker 3>in his life and those were taken away. So when

1091
00:58:41.639 --> 00:58:45.440
<v Speaker 3>you look at someone trying to rebuild after being in prison,

1092
00:58:45.599 --> 00:58:49.079
<v Speaker 3>after having a label on them, whether the courts say, hey,

1093
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:52.159
<v Speaker 3>he didn't do it and or we can't reprosecute this

1094
00:58:52.199 --> 00:58:55.679
<v Speaker 3>because we don't have enough evidence. Even if everyone came

1095
00:58:55.719 --> 00:58:58.280
<v Speaker 3>forward and said he could not have done it, then

1096
00:58:58.760 --> 00:59:01.159
<v Speaker 3>you still have people in the community that say, remember

1097
00:59:01.159 --> 00:59:04.159
<v Speaker 3>that's the killer, that's the guy who did that. There's

1098
00:59:04.199 --> 00:59:08.360
<v Speaker 3>still a cloud over Andy, and it doesn't go away.

1099
00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:12.000
<v Speaker 3>Even if he had been compensated financially, you still never

1100
00:59:12.159 --> 00:59:15.440
<v Speaker 3>can escape that. That is part of now your story

1101
00:59:15.480 --> 00:59:17.239
<v Speaker 3>and part of the way people view you.

1102
00:59:18.960 --> 00:59:21.400
<v Speaker 2>As for the families of Burned and Andrea, the whole

1103
00:59:21.400 --> 00:59:24.400
<v Speaker 2>situation must have been an absolute nightmare. As I'm sure

1104
00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:26.400
<v Speaker 2>it's the most helpless feeling in the world to have

1105
00:59:26.480 --> 00:59:29.119
<v Speaker 2>your loved ones become the victims of an unsolved crime

1106
00:59:29.159 --> 00:59:32.800
<v Speaker 2>in a foreign country thousands of miles away. It must

1107
00:59:32.800 --> 00:59:36.079
<v Speaker 2>be particularly difficult to believe that the responsible party was

1108
00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:39.199
<v Speaker 2>convicted of this crime, only to find out years after

1109
00:59:39.280 --> 00:59:41.440
<v Speaker 2>the fact that it was the wrong person all along,

1110
00:59:41.639 --> 00:59:43.920
<v Speaker 2>and that the real perpetrator has gotten away with it.

1111
00:59:44.559 --> 00:59:47.960
<v Speaker 2>And this is why the victims' families deserve a conclusive resolution.

1112
00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:51.280
<v Speaker 2>So if you happen to have information about the murders

1113
00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:55.400
<v Speaker 2>of Burnt Gerica and Andrea Shirp, please contact the Chetwynd

1114
00:59:55.400 --> 00:59:58.880
<v Speaker 2>branch of the RCMP at two five zero seven eighty

1115
00:59:58.920 --> 01:00:02.000
<v Speaker 2>eight nine two T two one. That's two five zero

1116
01:00:02.239 --> 01:00:05.519
<v Speaker 2>seven eight eight nine two two one, or you can

1117
01:00:05.559 --> 01:00:08.239
<v Speaker 2>call the Canadian Crime Stoppers tip line at one eight

1118
01:00:08.360 --> 01:00:11.840
<v Speaker 2>hundred two two two eight four seven seven that's one

1119
01:00:11.840 --> 01:00:15.719
<v Speaker 2>eight hundred two two two eight four seven seven Jules

1120
01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:19.320
<v Speaker 2>Ashley any final thoughts in this case, Well.

1121
01:00:19.159 --> 01:00:21.400
<v Speaker 3>It's another one of those cases where you say, look

1122
01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:24.559
<v Speaker 3>at these two individuals who went on this life adventure.

1123
01:00:25.000 --> 01:00:28.320
<v Speaker 3>They were having fun, they were exploring, they were about

1124
01:00:28.360 --> 01:00:32.119
<v Speaker 3>to head home, and because at the time it was

1125
01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:36.280
<v Speaker 3>commonplace to trust individuals to give a ride to you,

1126
01:00:37.039 --> 01:00:40.800
<v Speaker 3>these two people looked at whoever drove up to them

1127
01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:44.039
<v Speaker 3>and said, he looks safe, he looks like he would

1128
01:00:44.119 --> 01:00:46.280
<v Speaker 3>take us where we need to go. I'm not scared

1129
01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:49.400
<v Speaker 3>of him. In fact, Andrea and Byrne had to look

1130
01:00:49.400 --> 01:00:52.519
<v Speaker 3>at each other and say, I trust this person. And

1131
01:00:53.119 --> 01:00:56.719
<v Speaker 3>that simple act of just being a human who is

1132
01:00:57.079 --> 01:01:01.119
<v Speaker 3>vulnerable and open on this kind of care free trip

1133
01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:05.079
<v Speaker 3>cost them their life. Someone prayed on that, someone took

1134
01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:09.480
<v Speaker 3>advantage of that, and in my gut, Andrea became a

1135
01:01:09.519 --> 01:01:12.840
<v Speaker 3>target in that truck. Burned, stood up for him for

1136
01:01:12.880 --> 01:01:16.000
<v Speaker 3>her and got attacked, got you know, offended the person

1137
01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:20.880
<v Speaker 3>who was driving, and they both struggled and lost to

1138
01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:23.840
<v Speaker 3>this person who took their life. It's wild when you

1139
01:01:23.880 --> 01:01:27.360
<v Speaker 3>think about people who have been killed and that we

1140
01:01:27.440 --> 01:01:31.400
<v Speaker 3>have someone who's walking around who's responsible for that. Here,

1141
01:01:31.480 --> 01:01:34.280
<v Speaker 3>you also have other victims too, though. I feel really

1142
01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:37.079
<v Speaker 3>sorry for will Is it will Adeine?

1143
01:01:37.719 --> 01:01:37.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

1144
01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:40.920
<v Speaker 3>Will Adeine? I feel sorry for her. She has this

1145
01:01:40.920 --> 01:01:44.480
<v Speaker 3>this guilt and this heaviness that she carries around wondering

1146
01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:48.199
<v Speaker 3>if her husband could be or could have been a murderer.

1147
01:01:49.000 --> 01:01:51.400
<v Speaker 3>She also has this kind of weight of saying I

1148
01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:53.880
<v Speaker 3>hate to even put that out there because if I'm wrong,

1149
01:01:54.239 --> 01:01:58.480
<v Speaker 3>I'm also you know, preventing investigation into somebody else. I

1150
01:01:58.519 --> 01:02:02.079
<v Speaker 3>feel so sorry for Anne and for the relationship he

1151
01:02:02.159 --> 01:02:05.159
<v Speaker 3>had before he was arrested, for the child that he

1152
01:02:05.199 --> 01:02:07.760
<v Speaker 3>brought into this world that you know, the relationship was

1153
01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:12.599
<v Speaker 3>impacted by his arrest and subsequent imprisonment, and you think

1154
01:02:12.639 --> 01:02:15.639
<v Speaker 3>about the community at large. Somebody prayed on these two

1155
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:18.599
<v Speaker 3>individuals and has so far gotten away with it. It

1156
01:02:18.719 --> 01:02:22.679
<v Speaker 3>is my prayer that scientific breakthrough is whether the offender

1157
01:02:22.840 --> 01:02:27.719
<v Speaker 3>is alive or not. Now that the DNA can be

1158
01:02:27.840 --> 01:02:30.079
<v Speaker 3>the key in this case, where we say, you know what,

1159
01:02:30.199 --> 01:02:34.000
<v Speaker 3>it's becoming more accessible, it's becoming easier. We have bigger databases,

1160
01:02:34.159 --> 01:02:37.559
<v Speaker 3>we have more people volunteering to share DNA information to

1161
01:02:37.599 --> 01:02:41.000
<v Speaker 3>try to link themselves to criminals and to their own

1162
01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:45.760
<v Speaker 3>family treat I think it's amazing, it's fascinating, it's exciting,

1163
01:02:46.320 --> 01:02:51.119
<v Speaker 3>but it's difficult to say how frequent and how often

1164
01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:53.480
<v Speaker 3>this case specifically might get a chance of that. But

1165
01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:56.559
<v Speaker 3>I'm praying that maybe we get answers just from the

1166
01:02:56.639 --> 01:02:59.280
<v Speaker 3>advances in science, because this has the evidence sitting there,

1167
01:02:59.400 --> 01:03:01.039
<v Speaker 3>we just have to match it to somebody.

1168
01:03:02.119 --> 01:03:05.760
<v Speaker 1>I truly feel for Burned and Andrea's families. I can't

1169
01:03:05.760 --> 01:03:08.760
<v Speaker 1>imagine what it would be like having to deal with

1170
01:03:08.840 --> 01:03:11.639
<v Speaker 1>all of the complexities of a case like this and

1171
01:03:11.719 --> 01:03:15.360
<v Speaker 1>it going on overseas. I don't know how well and

1172
01:03:15.480 --> 01:03:18.239
<v Speaker 1>if they speak English, but it would be a really

1173
01:03:18.239 --> 01:03:22.239
<v Speaker 1>difficult landscape. And then when you're dealing with Andy Rose

1174
01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:25.719
<v Speaker 1>being convicted and then it being a wrongful conviction and

1175
01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:28.519
<v Speaker 1>feeling like you have that justice taken away from you.

1176
01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:32.760
<v Speaker 1>Like actually just said, I truly believe that in the future,

1177
01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:35.480
<v Speaker 1>I hope this will be like Robin's you know list

1178
01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:37.920
<v Speaker 1>versus article where he went through all of these different

1179
01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:42.159
<v Speaker 1>Jane does and nine other ten of Jane and John does,

1180
01:03:42.199 --> 01:03:44.199
<v Speaker 1>and nine out of ten of them have gotten their

1181
01:03:44.239 --> 01:03:48.239
<v Speaker 1>identities back through the views of DNA and genetic genealogy.

1182
01:03:48.840 --> 01:03:51.079
<v Speaker 1>And I think that this is a case where we

1183
01:03:51.199 --> 01:03:55.440
<v Speaker 1>might look back in retrospect in like five years or something,

1184
01:03:55.480 --> 01:03:57.320
<v Speaker 1>and Robin is going to have this big list of

1185
01:03:57.360 --> 01:03:59.800
<v Speaker 1>cases that he's going to go down and they're going

1186
01:03:59.800 --> 01:04:02.760
<v Speaker 1>to be the ones that we've spoken about, and they'll

1187
01:04:02.800 --> 01:04:06.519
<v Speaker 1>be solved because of genetic genealogy in the future. That

1188
01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:09.039
<v Speaker 1>is my hope for this case and so many others

1189
01:04:09.039 --> 01:04:09.760
<v Speaker 1>that we've covered.

1190
01:04:10.679 --> 01:04:13.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, we just mentioned the Christine Jessup murder

1191
01:04:13.159 --> 01:04:15.719
<v Speaker 2>from nineteen eighty four, one of the most infamous wrongful

1192
01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:19.079
<v Speaker 2>convictions in Canadian history, and they solved it just under

1193
01:04:19.119 --> 01:04:21.800
<v Speaker 2>five years ago and found a suspect who was never

1194
01:04:21.880 --> 01:04:24.559
<v Speaker 2>on the radar, who was already dead. But at least

1195
01:04:24.599 --> 01:04:26.679
<v Speaker 2>they could say, now we can prove that this guy

1196
01:04:26.760 --> 01:04:29.119
<v Speaker 2>was the killer. And for a long time I never

1197
01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:32.440
<v Speaker 2>thought that case would be conclusively solved because in so

1198
01:04:32.519 --> 01:04:36.599
<v Speaker 2>many wrongful conviction cases, once the wrongfully accused is released

1199
01:04:36.599 --> 01:04:40.000
<v Speaker 2>from prison, the investigation just dies. But there is a

1200
01:04:40.039 --> 01:04:43.280
<v Speaker 2>possibility of solving this one because there is genetic material

1201
01:04:43.400 --> 01:04:46.159
<v Speaker 2>belonging to the killer on the pair of bloody jeans

1202
01:04:46.159 --> 01:04:48.639
<v Speaker 2>that were found, and if they were matched up to someone,

1203
01:04:48.719 --> 01:04:51.519
<v Speaker 2>even if that person is already deceased, they can still

1204
01:04:51.559 --> 01:04:53.800
<v Speaker 2>say beyond a shadow of a doubt that this person

1205
01:04:53.880 --> 01:04:57.599
<v Speaker 2>did this, because even though Andy Rose had the charges

1206
01:04:57.599 --> 01:05:00.360
<v Speaker 2>against him drop, you can never really be fully xon

1207
01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:04.480
<v Speaker 2>erted unless they find the real killer. And so even

1208
01:05:04.519 --> 01:05:08.360
<v Speaker 2>though like he's recognized as a wrongly convicted individual, he

1209
01:05:08.400 --> 01:05:11.800
<v Speaker 2>will never receive full vindication unless they find out who

1210
01:05:11.840 --> 01:05:15.239
<v Speaker 2>did this. But yeah, it's a heartbreaking case because Burnt

1211
01:05:15.280 --> 01:05:17.239
<v Speaker 2>and Andrea just felt they were on like a once

1212
01:05:17.280 --> 01:05:20.320
<v Speaker 2>in a lifetime trip getting to backpack through Canada, and

1213
01:05:20.360 --> 01:05:23.280
<v Speaker 2>they made it two months and were nearly home before

1214
01:05:23.320 --> 01:05:25.760
<v Speaker 2>they just ran into the wrong person and was killed.

1215
01:05:26.199 --> 01:05:29.480
<v Speaker 2>And usually in wrongful conviction cases, the victims get overlooked

1216
01:05:29.519 --> 01:05:32.280
<v Speaker 2>because when they put the wrong person in prison, they

1217
01:05:32.360 --> 01:05:35.639
<v Speaker 2>become the focal point of the story and their families

1218
01:05:35.639 --> 01:05:37.960
<v Speaker 2>are told, yes, this case is solved, you have finally

1219
01:05:38.039 --> 01:05:40.800
<v Speaker 2>receive justice, only to find out years later know they

1220
01:05:40.840 --> 01:05:43.400
<v Speaker 2>got the wrong person and that the real killer is

1221
01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:46.400
<v Speaker 2>still out there. So yeah, I mentioned that this is

1222
01:05:46.440 --> 01:05:48.519
<v Speaker 2>one of the weakest cases that I've ever seen, and

1223
01:05:48.719 --> 01:05:51.119
<v Speaker 2>in a guilty verdict in conviction and the fact that

1224
01:05:51.159 --> 01:05:54.239
<v Speaker 2>it happened to Andy Rose twice with two separate juries

1225
01:05:54.239 --> 01:05:57.840
<v Speaker 2>where the only evidence was an incredible story from Adonna

1226
01:05:57.920 --> 01:06:00.679
<v Speaker 2>Kelly is just a major travesty. I think if this

1227
01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:04.119
<v Speaker 2>crime had taken place years later, he never even would

1228
01:06:04.119 --> 01:06:06.199
<v Speaker 2>have been charged and gone a trial to begin with.

1229
01:06:06.360 --> 01:06:09.360
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, major tragedy. But I do hope somewhere down

1230
01:06:09.400 --> 01:06:13.079
<v Speaker 2>the line the usenek genealogy to identify the perpetrator so

1231
01:06:13.119 --> 01:06:16.119
<v Speaker 2>that Burnt and Andrea will finally receive justice and Andy

1232
01:06:16.199 --> 01:06:18.199
<v Speaker 2>Rose will finally receive vindication.

1233
01:06:19.960 --> 01:06:21.440
<v Speaker 1>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

1234
01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:22.920
<v Speaker 1>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

1235
01:06:23.679 --> 01:06:26.039
<v Speaker 2>Yes. The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

1236
01:06:26.079 --> 01:06:29.840
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

1237
01:06:29.920 --> 01:06:33.280
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

1238
01:06:33.320 --> 01:06:36.159
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

1239
01:06:36.199 --> 01:06:38.760
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars

1240
01:06:38.800 --> 01:06:42.880
<v Speaker 2>tier Tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in

1241
01:06:42.920 --> 01:06:46.079
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

1242
01:06:46.119 --> 01:06:49.440
<v Speaker 2>the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon.

1243
01:06:49.760 --> 01:06:52.239
<v Speaker 2>And if you join our highest tier tier three, the

1244
01:06:52.280 --> 01:06:55.199
<v Speaker 2>ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is

1245
01:06:55.280 --> 01:06:59.559
<v Speaker 2>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of UNSAWD Mysteries.

1246
01:07:00.119 --> 01:07:02.960
<v Speaker 2>You can download an audio file and then boot up

1247
01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:06.559
<v Speaker 2>the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or YouTube

1248
01:07:06.880 --> 01:07:10.079
<v Speaker 2>and play it with my audio commentary playing in the background,

1249
01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:13.199
<v Speaker 2>where I just provide trivia and factoids about the cases

1250
01:07:13.199 --> 01:07:16.920
<v Speaker 2>featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very first episode

1251
01:07:16.920 --> 01:07:19.639
<v Speaker 2>that I did a commentary track over was the episode

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<v Speaker 2>featuring this case. So if you want to download a

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<v Speaker 2>commentary track in which I make more smart ass remarks

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<v Speaker 2>about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join Tier three.

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<v Speaker 4>So I want to let you know a little bit

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<v Speaker 4>about the Jeweles and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

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<v Speaker 4>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

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<v Speaker 4>Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so

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<v Speaker 4>they're not very mini, but they're just too short to

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<v Speaker 4>turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those.

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<v Speaker 4>So we hope you'll check out those patreons.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll link them in the show notes.

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<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

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<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

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<v Speaker 2>with a friend or d rate and review is greatly

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<v Speaker 2>appreciate it. You can email us at The Pathwentchili at

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<v Speaker 2>gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at

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<v Speaker 2>the Pathway. So until next time, be sure to bundle

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<v Speaker 2>up because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

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<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy