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Speaker 1: This Pet Life Radio, Let's talk pets.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to aquarium Mania.

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Speaker 3: I'm your host, doctor Royanong, speaking to you from the

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University of Florida. Iphis Tropical Aquacultural Laboratory. Thanks for joining us.

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Freshwater fish keepers have thousands of fish to choose from,

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but for more experienced aquaris, Among the prize gems are

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the discus, known by many as the king of the aquariums.

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These denizens of the Amazon are calm, stately, and in

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addition to a unique disc shape available in beautiful wild

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types and aquaculture colors and patterns. My guest today, Papula

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mandrakardf long with Clarence ichthyologists and conservationists currently working with

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Project PIABA, has a special appreciation.

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Speaker 2: For and expertise with discus.

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Speaker 3: Join us as Copula shares his life story and explains

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why discus are worthy of their regal title.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back after these messages.

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Speaker 4: You know the expression cats have nine lives? Well, what

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if you can give them one more? But give them ten?

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Movement is on a mission to help give cats an

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extra life. How with spay and neuter spain or neutering

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your cat helps them live a longer, healthier life, and

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it helps control free roaming cat populations too. Learn more

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about the benefits of spee and neuter and meet Scooter,

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the neutered cat at give them ten dot org. That's

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give them ten dot org.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk pets on Petlife Radio dot com.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to aquarium Mania on pet Life Radio. My

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guest today is Couple of maundercar a theologist, lifelong aquarist

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and conservationists with Project PIAPA.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Couple.

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Speaker 5: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: So I usually like to start kind of getting a

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little personal with my guests. Let's talk a little bit

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about some of your early years. I've heard some of

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the stories, but I'd love to hear them or maybe more.

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How did you first become interested in fish in aquariums?

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Speaker 2: Will?

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Speaker 5: When I was born, my father brought me home to

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a house of aquariums. He actually rebuilt the stands of

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the tank so they're closer to the floor, so I

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actually was able to interact with them as a younger child.

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And then when my parents moved to Kalamazoo, Michigan, my

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dad joined the Southwest Michigan Aquariums side. So I was

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about three years old, at that time, and I used

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to go each of those meetings with him, and I

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just I learned a lot more about fish. I became

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more fascinated about fish. I learned where they came from,

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and it just became a passion of mine.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I was kind of curious some you your

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dad had a bunch of aquariums that was really interested.

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Do you know how he got interested when he was

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in India?

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Speaker 5: So my dad told me that when he was a

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young child, he used to get the bowl the glass

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parts for he'd like get a light bulb, like a

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big one of those big street lamp light bulbs, and

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he used to take the electrical part off of it,

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and he used to go to the beach and catch

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larval marine fish and he would put him in his

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He would put him in his room and watch him

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for the day that they would survive. And then back

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in the day, you know those big water jugs that

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you kind of put on the receptacle that give you water.

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Back then there were glass and somebody gave him one

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of those, and I think he graduated getting guppies in

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one of those, but they got algified and eventually I

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think a family friend or one of his uncles was

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able to get him a fish tank, and that's that's

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kind of where he started. And then when he was

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a little bit older, he wanted a bigger tank, and

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my grandfather told him if he wanted a bigger tank,

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that he needed to build one, and he built tanks.

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And those couple of those tanks I believe were holding

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water till about like ten or fifteen years ago till

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somebody broke them. So yeah, that's kind of how I

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got into the That's how he got in the aquariums,

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which sort of transferred over to me.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome.

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Speaker 3: Can you describe the very first tank you can remember,

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you know, size, what kind of fish you had, even

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maybe filtration if you remember that.

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Speaker 5: So I still have these tanks sort of the first

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sort of two tanks that I remember my dad having

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were these two acrylic fifty five gallon aquariums. One was

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like a community tank with you know, tetras, barbs, Garami's angelfish.

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The other one was actually a goldfish tank with you know,

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various fancy goldfish. I believe there were a couple of

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shabunkins in there. And then you know, my dad, I

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think had a couple of smaller tanks, had a couple

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of smaller tanks where he would, you know, breed some fish.

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That was my I guess my earliest memory of that

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when we that was back when we lived in apartments.

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When we moved into a house, my father's dream was

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to have a fish tank in the wall. So the

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two fifty fives actually went into the wall and we

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actually built a two hundred and forty gallon tank several

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years later to fill that void in the wall. And

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then we started a fish room on the other side

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of the wall. And I think we originally had like

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ten tanks, and maybe by the time that I graduated

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high school there were about forty tanks. We had a

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indoor pond, and we had several outdoor ponds. So we

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got really into it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's amazing, And obviously it helps that your dad

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dad was really into it, was your mom into it,

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or you know as well hopefully Well, it's actually.

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Speaker 5: Really funny is when my parents, when they first came

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to this country were living in Ohio, and when they

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moved from Ohio to Michigan, my dad didn't actually want

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to set up the fish tank, and my mom was

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the one that actually wanted it so, but no, she wasn't.

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She wasn't as into the fish. She I think liked

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the esthetics of the one in the wall. But my

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mom's always been very supportive of my aquarium hobby, and

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they've both my parents have just sort of let me

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go literally wild with my love for fish and pets.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome.

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Speaker 3: Now, obviously you've got a lot of experience and education,

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you know, with fisheries and fish. Can you share some

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of your studies and experience during your college years and

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what maybe influenced you the most.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think one important experiences that I had when

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I was in college was as I did a lot

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of undergraduate research, and I first started I worked with

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a professor on sort of habitat selection in secondary cavinasting birds,

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particularly like little house rens and tree swallows. And then

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it wasn't till a few years later, a couple of

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years later, that I had contacted some researchers and graduate

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students at the University of Michigan and that sort of

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evolved into a summer research experience, and that was my

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first experience with fish. I worked in the Museum of

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Zoology and I worked primarily on Amphelops historkey, which is

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migas sickle, the pandemic to Lake. And I really looked

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at their behavior and their aggression. You know, the the

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these cichlids in the wild are not super aggressive, but

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we brought them into captivity, they would they would become

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more aggressive, especially the smaller the space, the more aggressive

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they would become. And what I really looked at is

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what are some aspects of their aggression. So I tried

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to look in you know, territorial disputes, you know, was

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it prior residence, you know, if if a fish was

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there beforehand, if you cleared to claimed the territory. And

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then the following summer I had a NSF funded ru

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and I went to I went to Arkansas State University.

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I worked with doctor RAMERI there and we worked on cafish.

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I mean, I started doing some more you know, taxonomy

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work with some of the North American cafish. And this

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experience with the University of Michigan morphed into another research

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experience after I graduated from college on a Mexican cyclid

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called Corrictus Minkley, which is this polymorphic ciclid meaning actually

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has three different feeding morphologies and it's found in this

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small desert valley called Quatracienegus. That was my first sort

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of field expedition to do research somewhere else. And so

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those were the three primary you know, research experiences on

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fish that I had before by entered graduate school.

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Speaker 3: So I'm just curious with the midas, what were your

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findings or what was the aggression trigger?

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Speaker 5: So it seemed that, you know, if there was a

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three dimensional structure in there, that the fish seemed to

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have more prior residents in there to be more aggressive.

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Speaker 3: Okay, and then with your field studies, those are definitely

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like all genetically the same, I guess orf.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, so there Originally they were going to be

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you know, it was considered that there were sympatric speciation

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going and further studies revealed that it's all one species

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and there's these three feeding morphoags a piecivorus one, there's

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a moleskovore and then there's a detritivore. And I live

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in these spring fed pools that look like little oasis

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in the desert.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's pretty significant variation. That's pretty cool. So now

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obviously you decided to go a little further with your

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studies and uh, and go to grad school. What kind

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of was your decision to do that and where to

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go and maybe tell us a little bit about, you know,

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your work there, because I know it's it's I think

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it's with one of my favorite fish.

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Speaker 5: So so what I really wanted to do is I

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really wanted to travel with grad school, and I think

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that probably sort of dictated my my looking for places.

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I guess if I were to give a young person advice,

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I would say go after you know the question more

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than this place. But so I was looking at, you know,

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mostly faculty members at different schools that were working abroad,

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and I was kind of going back and forth wanting

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to study sort of more theoretical evolutionary biology of fishes

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versus you know, more ecology and conservation biology of fishes.

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I decided that I wanted to kind of go more

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down the path of ecology, and I met my advisor

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at a conference, and I think what really amazed me

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and this sort of kind of helped lead me to

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Project Piabo was I worked on this fish, one of

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the largest fish, one of the largest freshwater fish with scales.

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It's the giant airpima, and they are found in the

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Amazon and eth the Keyboard River basins. They can attain

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a length up to I think nine to ten feet

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I think are some of the largest ones found. I

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would say in the wild today most of the ones

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you tend to find tend to be around that six

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to eight feet range. But the fish was historically actirpated

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throughout most of its range. It has a very tasty meat,

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and you know, being such a large fish, half the

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weight of the fishes. It's filet so and they command

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let's just say, a price in their currency probably is

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equivalent to what we would pay for wild caught Alaskan

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salmon here. And so it's a very valuable fish and

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it's really in demand. And in the I don't know,

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sixty seventies, some community started realizing that a lot of

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these you know, commercial fishermen were coming into these communities

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and they were wreaking havoc, and so they the community

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sort of made a stand, and this resulted in conflict

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between these commercial fishermen and these artisanal fishermen, and the

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government became involved in the courts ruled that you know,

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the the resources the resources on these communal lands belonged

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to the communities and not to the public. So this

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sort of stemmed this community based management of different resources,

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particularly aripima, and in these these areas that they these

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communities lived and fish these fish, that's where aripima populations

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are rising. They eventually started working with scientists and they

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started setting size limits, seasons, and aerpima are an air

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breathing fish, so they have to surface like a whale

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to breathe every so often, and so every time they

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come to breathe, they come up and they make a

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giant splash and gulp air and sometimes it sounds like

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a missile going off. It's and when you're in a

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you're in the jungle with the lake full of these animals,

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it's it's pretty incredible to see. They can sit on

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shore on these lakes and count them. So how the

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ecology have a lot of fish in the Amazon works,

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particularly airpima, is you have a dry season and you

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have a flooded season. In the dry season, you have

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a river channel, and airpima do not live in the

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main river channel, and then you have these peripheral of

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these other aquatic habitats that are connected by channels, there's

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floating floating meadows, there's oxbow lakes. These airpyma tend to

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like deeper oxbo lakes. During the flooded season, water levels rise,

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you know, in some areas it goes up ten fifteen

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plus you know, feet into the into the jungle and

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the forest flood and that that's a period of time

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where fish like to reproduce and use the forest as nursery.

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And that's when airpima, which would use parental care similar

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to cichlids, you know, build a nest, lay their eggs,

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and then they they protect their young for a fairly

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long period of time. And so with this the in

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these what amazed me is in these areas where humans

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were living was actually where the population of air pima

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was growing. And in one part, in the central central

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western Amazon, the you know, our reserve, the populations just

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skyrocketed to a point at which that little reserve actually

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had more more fishient than the rest of the Amazon.

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So I think what really attracted me to the air

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pima is this sort of this relationship humans had with nature.

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Speaker 3: So what were your specific like kind of studies with

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them or what were you looking at?

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Speaker 5: So I'm still working on publishing some of these studies,

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but I was looking at their diet. I was looking

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at their sort of trophic ecology using isotopes, looking at

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food webs and really looking at how you know, management

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can affect the ecology of these fish, but really trying

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to figure out within this region, what were the main

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nutritional sources, what are they eating? And does it sort

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of change through does it change through different management protocols.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so before we start talking about discus, maybe a

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little bit more on kind of like the your current status, actually,

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what is your day job before we talk about more

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of your kind of fishy parts.

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Speaker 5: My day job, I'm a US spot now, I am

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a consultant. I'm an independent consultant. I work with different

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aspects of the pet industry as well as Project Piabo

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where I work with the fisheries and the trade of

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the cardinal tetras.

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Speaker 2: And so I know you've you've done a lot of

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different things.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned working at as an aquarius kind of doing

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aquaculture as well and research. What kind of things do

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you think in those specific jobs kind of helped you

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the most or do you have any specific take homes

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or stories for all the experiences you've had.

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Speaker 5: Oh man, I would like to say I'm a jack

279
00:16:49,559 --> 00:16:51,919
of all trades, but a master of none. You know.

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I think that working within aquaculture, the aquarium trade, the

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thing they've all had sort of different aspects of you know,

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the trade of fish and and the biology of fishes.

283
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I wouldn't say any one thing really sticks out to me.

284
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Working in the commercial aquaculture of fish I think was

285
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pretty interesting. I worked with seahorses, and it really to

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understand some of the reproduction and getting you know, it's

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not in a sense like a hobbyist level where you're

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you're trying to get some babies, but you have to

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be able to get enough babies. You have to get survival.

290
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And you start learning stuff about the biology of these fish,

291
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and it sometimes becomes like second nature to you when

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you look at them. You can you know, I don't

293
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even know how to say it. I'm like, oh, I

294
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,079
need to tweak this a little bit, you know. It's

295
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it's it's you know, I like to say that. You know,

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I could explain to you how to raise raise, you know,

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these seahorses in a biological terms, but there's there's a

298
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little bit of finesse that you sort of have to

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develop in an experience that you have to have before

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you can actually be successful with that.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I know definitely what you mean.

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Speaker 3: A last question before the discuss, So you've joined Project Piaba.

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Can you tell us a little bit about your role

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with Project Piaba? And I think some of our listeners

305
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should be familiar with it, but maybe just a real

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brief intro.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 5: Project Piaba is an organization that started in the late

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eighties early nineties. It was started by doctor Chow and

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mister Scott Dowd and it sort of stemmed off of

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a research project that there were a lot of aquarium fish,

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particularly cardinal tetris coming out of the Rio Negro. Originally,

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it was thought that this fishery would have a negative

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effect on the ecosystem in fish populations. And after doctor Chow,

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who was I believe a faculty at IMPA, then he

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IMPA is the basically the Amazon Institute, you know, it's

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a universe that focuses just on Amazonian science, conservation, culture,

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that and so he did some of the first studies

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in the Rio Negro base and sort of discovered that

320
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actually these fisheries are not harming population that they're actually

321
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,839
not even touching the surface of how many fish can

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be collected sustainably and the fishery actually protects the ecosystem.

323
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You know, these aquarium fish collectors have developed a traditional

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knowledge that they really understood that in order for their

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00:19:26,759 --> 00:19:29,480
fishery to be strong, that they need to protect the

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forest and the fish depend on the forest, and so

327
00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:33,839
these fish are sort of to become the guardian of

328
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,359
the forest. So Project Piabo is created to sort of

329
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,519
support that trade, help whether it be in Brazil or abroad,

330
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and help encourage the purchase of these wild caught fish

331
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from the Rio Negro and educate people on the benefits

332
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that they have. I'm actually I think actually we're December

333
00:19:56,039 --> 00:19:58,880
is my one year anniversar with Project Piaba, so I'm

334
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,200
pretty new to that. My main role at so everybody

335
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,640
at Project Piava wears many different hats. It's a smaller,

336
00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:09,680
a small organization, so we're we're doing all sorts of

337
00:20:09,759 --> 00:20:12,480
things with it. But i am working sort of as

338
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a marketing specialist, So I'm working within the US of

339
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:22,440
sort of how to promote these fish, help educate the

340
00:20:22,599 --> 00:20:27,119
public of the United States about this fishery, help aquarium shops,

341
00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:32,480
wholesalers appropriately sell and educate people about these fish. Okay,

342
00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:36,519
As a biologist, I'm also doing stuff, you know, in

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00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,640
the field with with the biology of these fish, and

344
00:20:40,279 --> 00:20:42,759
and you know, work in all different aspects of the trade.

345
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So it's pretty interesting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds fascinating and the Amazon's you know, obviously amazing.

347
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,839
Speaker 2: Let's talk about discus and we'll have you do a

348
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little bit of an intro before we take a break.

349
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Speaker 3: So, putting your ichthyologists hat on, can you maybe just

350
00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,839
give us some maybe a general overview of discus from

351
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your viewpoint.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So, discus are a type of cyclad. It's a

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round fish white has the name discus. They are found

354
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in sort of lowland regions of the Amazon, and currently

355
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there's three described species of discus. There is Symphisidon peraldi,

356
00:21:22,599 --> 00:21:24,920
which is you know, considered to be the blue or

357
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:31,960
brown discus. There's Synfidon I'm sorry, Symphysidon discus, which is

358
00:21:32,079 --> 00:21:35,880
the heckel discus, which is primarily found in the Rio

359
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Neegar region and the region the Project PIABA supports the

360
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fishery in. And then there's a couple of other disjunct

361
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populations of that. And then there is the green discus,

362
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which is a Symphysidon tarzu, which is found in the

363
00:21:54,920 --> 00:22:01,920
central and western Amazon. There are some areas between the

364
00:22:02,079 --> 00:22:05,720
blue discus the hackle discus where there are hybrid zones

365
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of those where the two species do hybridize. And there

366
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was a paper another paper that come out. So there's

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been three current sort of papers that really focus in

368
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,240
recent years. When I say recent, it's been it's been

369
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a while now it's but I think it's coming on

370
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like close to twenty years when these papers were published.

371
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But there was another paper that sort of looked at

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just the genetics of these fish and they identified five

373
00:22:29,519 --> 00:22:37,119
evolutionary significant units in the populations of discus. So they

374
00:22:37,279 --> 00:22:41,480
looked at, you know, the you know, the the green

375
00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:44,680
discus were their own thing, the hackle discus were their

376
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,160
own thing and related to the other disjunct populations. And

377
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then with the blue discus, which is the Symphysidon heraldi.

378
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,519
Those fish they sort of categorized in two different units

379
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of population. They're sort of the blue unit, then there's

380
00:23:00,599 --> 00:23:02,839
the brown unit. Before we kind of go too much

381
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,359
into this further, but just to just make it a

382
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,119
thing on color discus fish. These are just like kind

383
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,160
of like a general thing. Discus fish are highly variable

384
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in the wild, and you know, within a population can

385
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range in colors. And then they discovered a fifth unit,

386
00:23:20,079 --> 00:23:23,920
which is the Rio Shingu. The discus of rioshin Gu

387
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are sort of their own own things. So it seems

388
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,119
that the heraldy could potentially be split up into two

389
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:35,400
species genetically, and the Shingou discus could be also a

390
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,720
new species. But in order to describe a fish, one

391
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,359
has to do a morphological comparison as sort of the

392
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,759
primary So you can't just describe a fish on genetics.

393
00:23:46,799 --> 00:23:49,759
The morphology, the mouristics, you know, that's those are all

394
00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:54,400
the scale counts, you know, looking at shape, size, looking

395
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,079
at you know, the fin ray counts. Those are all

396
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,920
really important aspects to actually just bribing you fish.

397
00:24:01,319 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 2: Well.

398
00:24:01,559 --> 00:24:03,759
Speaker 3: Great, and I'm going to definitely have some follow ups

399
00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:06,480
to that, and we'll talk more about discussing this is keeping.

400
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,839
But let's take a short break and we'll continue our

401
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,599
discussion with a theologist at Pueris and conservationist couple of

402
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,400
under car After a word, our sponsors.

403
00:24:20,039 --> 00:24:23,680
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413
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414
00:25:03,519 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 2: Talk past, Let's talk about radio, Headline Radio Headline radio

415
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:09,599
dot com.

416
00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:21,839
Speaker 3: We're back and continuing our conversation with my guest Capula

417
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,319
mondracar a theologists Aquarius and conservationists with Project Piaba.

418
00:25:26,599 --> 00:25:28,319
Speaker 2: So you gave us a really good.

419
00:25:28,319 --> 00:25:31,039
Speaker 3: Intro and it started getting into some of the genetics

420
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,680
and variation in the wild. I mean, it sounds obviously

421
00:25:34,839 --> 00:25:38,880
kind of complicated but interesting as well. I'm just curious

422
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,799
about the Shinghu population. So is that not really closely

423
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,680
related to the other three you had mentioned.

424
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,599
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's sort of its own unit, you know, it

425
00:25:46,759 --> 00:25:50,240
looks very similar to like a brown discus. They're not

426
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,400
they're they're not necessarily the most colorful population in discus,

427
00:25:53,599 --> 00:25:55,759
but they're also just a very unique one. And I

428
00:25:55,839 --> 00:25:58,000
have seen them, and I've never seen them in the wild,

429
00:25:58,079 --> 00:25:59,880
but I have seen them in aquaria before.

430
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,519
Speaker 3: Okay, this may be a question before your age and time.

431
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,319
Do you know when discus first kind of got into

432
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:06,839
the hobby or are you familar with any of that?

433
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I believe discus, the heckle discus, was I

434
00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:14,519
think discovered in the eighteen hundreds and then in the

435
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,319
early nineteen hundreds as when a second species was discovered,

436
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:24,119
which was described as I believe since Fisidon aquafasiadis, which

437
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,200
that name is no longer considered valid, but that sort

438
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,880
of lumped you know, the basically those hackle discus and

439
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,440
everything else. Was this other discus Discus I believe were

440
00:26:33,559 --> 00:26:36,839
first imported in I don't know if it was Europe

441
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,400
or the US, but it first imported in the Western

442
00:26:40,519 --> 00:26:44,559
world in the nineteen twenties, and I don't think it

443
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,440
was till maybe the nineteen thirties when some actually might

444
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:50,200
have survived.

445
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Speaker 2: I was wondering, Yeah, that was my next question.

446
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,559
Speaker 5: And then I don't think it was until the fifties

447
00:26:57,599 --> 00:27:03,039
that we started seeing people breeding them in captivity. And

448
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:08,240
I don't think it was till the sixties or seventies

449
00:27:08,799 --> 00:27:12,960
till we started getting more commercial breeding of those discus.

450
00:27:13,079 --> 00:27:16,680
And in the eighties and nineties is when you know,

451
00:27:16,839 --> 00:27:20,799
real commercial discus took off and there's multiple millions of

452
00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:24,920
discus born and traded a year throughout the world.

453
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Speaker 3: So before we talk a little bit more about aquaculture,

454
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,880
discus and you know, and kind of discus keeping on,

455
00:27:30,079 --> 00:27:33,400
what are the processes by which discus are kind of

456
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:34,319
collected in the wild.

457
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: I know you've you've kind of been out there. How

458
00:27:36,039 --> 00:27:36,759
does that happen?

459
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 5: So when I was doing my work on Arapaima, I

460
00:27:39,519 --> 00:27:43,400
was in the Lower Amazon, and there was the Lower

461
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,839
Amazon is also sort of like the focal point of

462
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,920
where the blue and brown discus occur, particularly the blue discus.

463
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,000
While I was there, I really wanted to My goal

464
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,119
was to swim with discus in the wild. And there

465
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,680
was one exporter there called sat In Discus run by

466
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,000
Victor Charisma, and you know, I got in contact with

467
00:28:05,079 --> 00:28:07,279
him and I became friends with him and I started

468
00:28:07,519 --> 00:28:10,119
going out to these places. One thing I can tell

469
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,400
you is that the variety of habitats is pretty incredible

470
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,519
that discus come from. But really, you know, like the Airpima,

471
00:28:17,599 --> 00:28:23,759
there's various communities that focus on collecting the discus. Some

472
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,960
of these communities not everybody that that you know collect discus,

473
00:28:28,039 --> 00:28:29,720
but there's a there's a group of people that you know,

474
00:28:29,839 --> 00:28:36,079
focus on discus collection, and they collect the discus, you know,

475
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,519
in two ways. They either they sort of put nets

476
00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:41,720
out by falling branches trees, you know, at night, they

477
00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:43,920
seem to come up into those and it's usually I believe,

478
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,839
in the evening where they go and they they sort

479
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,839
of you know, use between saints and a specialized dip net.

480
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,079
They collect the discus and then the discus are kept

481
00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:59,920
in a floating cage which could either be made out

482
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:03,319
of just wood planks or some of them are you know,

483
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,160
more like a cage really made out of a plastic

484
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,799
netting material and they are held in those those environments

485
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,559
for a period of time before the exporter comes and

486
00:29:14,799 --> 00:29:18,200
takes them. Now, there is like I said before, discus

487
00:29:18,279 --> 00:29:21,240
are highly variable. I would say the Hackle discus are

488
00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:26,240
probably the least variable, but within the blue discus populations,

489
00:29:26,319 --> 00:29:30,200
the populations are highly variable. And I say this because

490
00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:33,000
you know, I would see these collections of wild discus.

491
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,440
You know, I would say, like gudy Bana is one

492
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,480
place that I went to. Gudy Banta is really well

493
00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:42,000
known because the discus are very red from that region

494
00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:45,799
as probably one of the most highly sought after populations

495
00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:48,680
of wild discus. But you would see these discus that

496
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,960
would say quitdy Bana royal, which means, you know, is

497
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,599
a fish that's fully striated and has you know, the

498
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,599
blue or iridescing turquoise coloration on it. Then they would

499
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,519
have you know, kudy ban semi royals, which would be

500
00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:06,160
there'd be patches of this blue striation, but it wouldn't

501
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,519
cover the full body. And then you would have you know,

502
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,079
solid quidy bit as you know, they're called coudypit on reds,

503
00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:14,400
which is a solid red fish. And those guys would

504
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,880
may have some striations on the fin or the head area,

505
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,799
but you know, it would be a solid, you know,

506
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,400
reddish brown, rich color. And you know, at first I thought,

507
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,960
you know, these fish, there must be one lake that

508
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,359
they're all solid one lake that their semis one lake

509
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,680
that they're royals, And when I got there, I realized

510
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,240
they all lived together. And there's some fish in those

511
00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:40,880
populations that are not the prettiest fish, you know, that

512
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,440
don't have that solid red coloration so within the fish,

513
00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:49,000
so the fishermen try to do their best job, you know,

514
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,799
weeding out what is what is desirable by the aquarium trade.

515
00:30:53,319 --> 00:30:56,160
And then when the exporter goes there, he goes and

516
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,480
he picks out the fish and you know, see if

517
00:30:59,519 --> 00:31:03,720
it's except well, they literally like we literally bag the

518
00:31:03,799 --> 00:31:08,480
fish and put them in a styrofoam box and take

519
00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:10,880
them on a boat or a train back to the

520
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,400
city where they're acclimated and conditioned for export.

521
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 3: So you kind of answered one of my next questions,

522
00:31:17,519 --> 00:31:19,759
which was, so you think it's probably genetic and not

523
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,440
so much just diet that's that leads to the coloration.

524
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,599
Speaker 5: I think there's a variety of different things that lead

525
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,440
to sort of the coloration. So there, yes, there is

526
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,960
a genetic component. I do also see that there's a

527
00:31:31,039 --> 00:31:34,079
sexual selection component in some of the areas. You know,

528
00:31:34,279 --> 00:31:37,720
like you'll find discus. Usually discus are in black or

529
00:31:37,799 --> 00:31:40,519
clear water, but you know, there are areas where discus

530
00:31:40,759 --> 00:31:46,240
are found in murky waters. You find discus found in

531
00:31:46,319 --> 00:31:50,039
pH of like four point five eight, you know, to

532
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,720
neutral water. Usually they tend to be in various areas

533
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,720
a little bit softer than some, but that that does occur.

534
00:31:59,079 --> 00:32:00,720
So there's some of that, and then there's also some

535
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,640
stuff with just habitat in color. So I think there's

536
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,079
a lot of things selecting the coloration of these fish.

537
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,440
But I think in some of these areas it's a

538
00:32:10,519 --> 00:32:13,920
combination of mate selection and at least in the clear

539
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,359
areas of a combination of mate selection and you know,

540
00:32:17,599 --> 00:32:20,400
camouflage and the habitat which I think a couple of

541
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,720
different colorations probably work really well. And in Guidypeta, the

542
00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:28,319
water is just murky. It's more closer to the neutral range.

543
00:32:28,759 --> 00:32:31,480
The temperatures where discussed range It can be in the

544
00:32:31,599 --> 00:32:35,799
upper eighties to you know, the mid seventies. Guidy Beta

545
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,119
is probably in that seventy to eighty eighty degree range.

546
00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:42,599
You know, it's very turbid water. Gudy Beta. You know,

547
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,680
it's still connected to the Amazon River. You know, it's

548
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,160
what they call like a terrafirm lake which terraform means.

549
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,200
So you have two different sort of land type of

550
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,640
habitats on the rivers. You have what we call the varzia,

551
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,039
which is the Amazonian floodplain, and then you have what

552
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,759
we call terra firm which is you know, sort of

553
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,319
solid land that occurs next to the river. So the

554
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,279
floodplain habitat is what floods as well as is highly variable.

555
00:33:11,319 --> 00:33:15,160
It's very silty, muddy sort of habitat that you know,

556
00:33:15,319 --> 00:33:19,559
can change every year with with the with the change season.

557
00:33:19,599 --> 00:33:21,720
With a terra firm is actually like a solid land.

558
00:33:21,799 --> 00:33:24,000
It's not a sill, it's not a mud. There's you know,

559
00:33:24,079 --> 00:33:28,000
there's a more ancient geological component to that land. So

560
00:33:28,079 --> 00:33:31,599
that's kind of where those fish were occur. Okay, I

561
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,400
don't want to go too far into this, but like

562
00:33:33,799 --> 00:33:36,559
you know, one area, which where's the Thopa Jos River,

563
00:33:36,839 --> 00:33:39,640
that was actually the first place that I collected discus

564
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,359
and that actually I didn't go out with Victor. There

565
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,680
was there was an undergraduate Stude that was working in

566
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,039
the Aerpaima project with us, and he told me about

567
00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:51,440
this friend he had that collected fish for the local

568
00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:54,319
aquarium trade and he was going to go out collecting

569
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,599
discus with him, and I go, oh, I want to go,

570
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,839
and so, you know, we meet at the shopping mall

571
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,400
and local city. He picks us up in his car

572
00:34:02,599 --> 00:34:05,519
and he takes us, you know, to the poor area.

573
00:34:06,279 --> 00:34:09,320
And in Santa Dam there's this giant fish market. You

574
00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:12,719
can look up Santaina Fish Market and the wet season,

575
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,320
dolphins come up there. And it's this this place in

576
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,199
the city. And it's not necessary since it is in

577
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,280
an urban area. It's not like the cleanest place. A

578
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,880
lot of trash there. There's sewage outflow into this area.

579
00:34:24,039 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: You know.

580
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 5: We get we get in the beach and I was

581
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,360
just like, where where where's the boat that we're going on?

582
00:34:28,599 --> 00:34:31,159
And the fisherman goes, oh, there's no boat. We're gonna

583
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:33,039
collect him here and I go to him, I'm not

584
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,239
getting in the water here, and he's like, oh, no, no, no,

585
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,480
I just need you to grab the fish for me

586
00:34:39,519 --> 00:34:41,760
when I bring him in. And you know, in this

587
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:46,440
I would say polluted area, very heavily urban. We were

588
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,719
collecting discus, you know, of all different sizes there, as

589
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,360
well as a variety of other fish. And I think

590
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,840
at this point I had spent you know, a couple

591
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,880
of years in going back and forth from Brazil and

592
00:34:59,199 --> 00:35:02,039
always wondering where the discus lived. And I walked by

593
00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:05,559
this fish market almost on a daily and I was like, man,

594
00:35:05,639 --> 00:35:08,159
that they're They're kind of everywhere. So and then the

595
00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:09,920
third area I went to is a place called the

596
00:35:10,119 --> 00:35:14,480
Lago Grange, which is sort of this spring fed sort

597
00:35:14,519 --> 00:35:18,119
of river system that flows into these lakes and the

598
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,639
water there is a lot cooler, it's very acidic, the

599
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,039
water is crystal clear. That's the site that I got

600
00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:26,559
to swim with the discus and you know, come to

601
00:35:26,599 --> 00:35:29,039
find out too, the discus seemed to like a lot

602
00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:32,360
of flow, which is very very unique to what we

603
00:35:32,559 --> 00:35:35,280
think that they need in captivity. But they seem to

604
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:40,079
be found in deeper water with lots of flow near

605
00:35:40,199 --> 00:35:42,719
some sort of woody mature, whether it be driftwood or

606
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,920
tree branches. And it was incredible to see them, you know,

607
00:35:47,519 --> 00:35:51,119
swim very very swiftly in the current.

608
00:35:51,639 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 2: So when you say heavy flow, do you mean just

609
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,639
for that area or do you mean in general just.

610
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,079
Speaker 5: In that area of the river. You know, the you

611
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,639
have these these areas, but yeah, the one area that

612
00:36:00,639 --> 00:36:02,760
I was talking with them in Lago Grange. The flow

613
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,679
was so heavy that I actually had to grab onto

614
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,599
the driftwood that was sort of stuck into the ground

615
00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:09,239
there in order to stay or else I would have

616
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:10,000
just flowed away.

617
00:36:10,599 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 3: That's amazing. It's yeah, that's definitely a lot more variety

618
00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:16,119
than I realized. So I guess maybe we can combine

619
00:36:16,199 --> 00:36:18,679
some of my next questions. Obviously, as you mentioned, there's

620
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,239
been a lot more aquaculture, and I've seen a lot

621
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,679
of the I remember when pigeon Bloods first came out,

622
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,880
and there's a lot of kind of variety. Can you

623
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,440
maybe talk a little bit about the variety in colors

624
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,960
of the cultured species, and then maybe talk a little

625
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,400
bit about how like keeping wild type versus the aquacultured

626
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,039
species like may differ, Like what would you know hobbyists

627
00:36:40,079 --> 00:36:40,800
have to think about.

628
00:36:41,079 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 5: Okay, So I remember, you know, in the nineties when

629
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,920
we were starting to see discus come in from Asia

630
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,440
culture in Asia that were very colorful, and then you

631
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,559
would see wild discus were still pretty strongly coming into

632
00:36:55,599 --> 00:36:59,119
the United States. That you know, the wild discus used

633
00:36:59,119 --> 00:37:02,719
to just be these ugly brown ones and they weren't

634
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,639
that nice looking. Part of part of that is the

635
00:37:05,679 --> 00:37:08,360
supply chain. I think that on both captive as well

636
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,119
as as well discus, the supply chains changed on those.

637
00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:13,400
But part of those the supply chain, and part of

638
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,320
it is the American market wasn't buying the pretty discus

639
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,559
because they cost more money. The American market went in

640
00:37:19,599 --> 00:37:22,920
the cheapest discus. And so the really unique and really

641
00:37:23,519 --> 00:37:28,400
the prettier population in the discus, We're going to Asia

642
00:37:28,599 --> 00:37:31,480
and then Europe, and we were hardly getting any of these,

643
00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:36,239
really these populations. So when I show pictures of wild discus,

644
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,079
you know, you see a full royal discus which you know,

645
00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:44,400
you can say looks somewhere like a red turquoise, you know,

646
00:37:44,519 --> 00:37:48,360
blue turquoise or you know, brilliant turquoise in that realm

647
00:37:48,599 --> 00:37:51,199
like that. That's something that it does occur frequently in

648
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,679
the wild. And the reason we don't really see that

649
00:37:55,159 --> 00:37:57,920
is is because we never got them in the United

650
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,199
States and they went to very collectors and breeders in

651
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,119
other parts of the world. The solid redfish is probably

652
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,079
where the Marlborough discus might have come in from. You

653
00:38:10,199 --> 00:38:13,199
see that, you do see with the snake skin pattern

654
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,320
of discus, you know which which are very characteristic of

655
00:38:16,559 --> 00:38:20,719
a lot of very little bands, just very very tightly

656
00:38:21,079 --> 00:38:26,039
tightly spun striations. But those guys that that color pattern

657
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,920
is something that is sort of like a mutation that

658
00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:33,039
does occur in some wild population discan but it's not

659
00:38:33,159 --> 00:38:36,679
a frequent one. But that's that's I believe where that

660
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,960
mutation sort of possibly came from. With blue diamonds, which

661
00:38:41,039 --> 00:38:44,159
is a solid, you know, baby blue discus, those I

662
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,599
think stem from, Uh, there are blue diamond discus that

663
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,039
do occur in the wild. Again, like the snake skin,

664
00:38:50,119 --> 00:38:55,119
it's you know, this this mutation that's that's not very common,

665
00:38:55,199 --> 00:38:59,320
that occurs every so often. And I believe the blue

666
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,000
diamonds were line bread out of those the most difficult

667
00:39:03,079 --> 00:39:05,920
discus to breed, or the Heckel discus. Part of that

668
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:10,079
reason is they they are from more acidic regions. In

669
00:39:10,199 --> 00:39:13,199
my opinion, they're one of the prettiest of the wild discus.

670
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:17,320
They're probably the most common wild discus that came into

671
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,960
the hobby, But I don't think when when they were

672
00:39:20,159 --> 00:39:22,840
first being exported, I don't think we knew the best

673
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,760
about the supply chain of those. But those are probably

674
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,800
the most difficult wild discus to breed. They do hybridize

675
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,280
in the wild with the blue or brown discus, and

676
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,920
they do hybridize with the captor strains of discus. So

677
00:39:37,039 --> 00:39:40,280
you know, you can find what we have our heckle crosses.

678
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,719
Also with some of the solid red discus, we've sort

679
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,079
of created a couple of different strains of those, like

680
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,559
red covers and red rows which sort of stem from

681
00:39:51,599 --> 00:39:54,239
some of these you know, brown discus and some of them.

682
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,719
Sometimes you are you are seeing wild crosses in some

683
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,480
of the captor strains of discus. That's that's pretty unique.

684
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:02,679
Speaker 2: A quick follow up.

685
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,679
Speaker 3: So I'm guessing obviously all the hybrids are fertile, right,

686
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:07,480
I think.

687
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 5: There's question of whether the hybrids between heckles and blue

688
00:40:13,079 --> 00:40:17,519
are fertile. Okay, are not, but the between you know,

689
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,079
right now they're considered the same species, which is the

690
00:40:20,079 --> 00:40:23,199
blue brown discus. But I believe between those populations they

691
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,159
they are able to breed. I am not one hundred

692
00:40:26,199 --> 00:40:29,760
percent certain on I assume that the green discus might

693
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,440
have been hybridized in with with some of that. That's

694
00:40:32,519 --> 00:40:35,400
where you kind of I'm unclear in which if some

695
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,679
of the spotted discus that we see in captivity have

696
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,360
some of those green discus in there, because the green

697
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,679
discus tend to have a lot more spotting in them.

698
00:40:45,079 --> 00:40:48,320
So I'm unclear if that's if that's that case or not,

699
00:40:48,639 --> 00:40:52,440
but you know, but generally there's some level of fertility

700
00:40:52,519 --> 00:40:55,719
between the populations, and I don't know of anybody that's

701
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,360
bred the Shingu discus in captivity. I just don't think

702
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,719
there are as heavily traded as other population in discus.

703
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,800
I think in the Shinghu they mainly focus on lower

704
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,519
Koreans or your pleaco type fish, as well as they're

705
00:41:09,559 --> 00:41:10,880
not the most colorful discus.

706
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,199
Speaker 3: Right, Okay, so let's talk a little bit about discus

707
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,960
keeping in Are they really more advanced obvious and what

708
00:41:19,039 --> 00:41:24,320
do you recommend wildcott versus aquaculture. Obviously there's going to

709
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,280
be pluses and minuses and as well as like sort

710
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,159
of just general kind of requirements for keeping them.

711
00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 5: I will say the ease of the discus really I

712
00:41:34,079 --> 00:41:38,480
think depends whether it's wild or aquaculture is sort of

713
00:41:39,039 --> 00:41:42,639
has it gone through a good supply chain in the past.

714
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,559
I think discus we're considered these, you know, expert level

715
00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:49,039
fish difficult to keep and I think part of that

716
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,320
was to the fact that we weren't properly shipping these

717
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,039
fish across the country. You know, they were putting several

718
00:41:55,119 --> 00:41:57,679
in you know, a big bag and shipping them across.

719
00:41:58,199 --> 00:42:00,440
You know, we didn't really know as much about these fish,

720
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,320
and that's that's definitely have changed. What I think a

721
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:09,960
lot of these exporters in Brazil in particular have discovered

722
00:42:10,159 --> 00:42:13,559
is that the fish need to rest between each stop

723
00:42:13,679 --> 00:42:16,719
before they can be shipped out. And and you know,

724
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:21,599
they they work on doing various treatments there, and primarily

725
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,400
what they actually condition these fish with is uh salt.

726
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,159
You know, they they bring these discus in and they

727
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,280
salt salt them and that's that's usually the biggest medication

728
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,760
that they use. It's kind of difficult to get most

729
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:40,800
fish medications in Brazil, so that's usually that's usually the

730
00:42:41,519 --> 00:42:44,519
big thing with those guys. And with the same thing

731
00:42:44,599 --> 00:42:49,000
with with captive farm discus is you know, they just

732
00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:53,239
weren't sending them very well in along for a long

733
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,000
period of time, so those have changed. I think there's

734
00:42:56,079 --> 00:42:59,880
been sort of with the onset of these aquaculture discus

735
00:43:00,599 --> 00:43:03,920
wild discus trade sort of dropped, and I think in

736
00:43:04,039 --> 00:43:07,440
the past ten years it's been climbing back up with

737
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,679
with a lot more popularity and social media of wild discus,

738
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,679
and you're starting to see wild discus crosses, and I'm

739
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,119
starting to see more wild discus sort of being imported

740
00:43:17,599 --> 00:43:20,440
around the world. But in general, that's I think that's

741
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,440
the big thing with them. Discus are susceptible to disease.

742
00:43:25,079 --> 00:43:28,960
Many populations of discus, you know, are found in the

743
00:43:29,039 --> 00:43:31,800
wild in not always but tend to be in more

744
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:38,280
acidic conditions, and they sort of are not exposed to

745
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,840
a lot of different types of bacteria in those in

746
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,039
those sort of systems, and so they can be susceptible

747
00:43:44,079 --> 00:43:46,920
to thing. But once a discus is acclimated into your

748
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,320
your current water, you know, they can be very hearty.

749
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,480
So when I say are they for beginners, you know,

750
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:54,639
I would say, if you're getting them from a really

751
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,199
reputable source, whether it be wild or captive bread, I

752
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:05,239
think that they can be very very rewarding fish and

753
00:44:05,599 --> 00:44:09,239
fairly easy to take care of. I think the biggest

754
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,320
thing I can give you is that they can be

755
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,920
susceptible to these So I think quarantine of tank mates

756
00:44:15,119 --> 00:44:17,559
and new discus are really important.

757
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 3: With regard to I guess temperatures and yeah, and you

758
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,920
mentioned tank mates, like what should they be ideally kept

759
00:44:23,079 --> 00:44:25,679
by themselves or what type of you know fish would

760
00:44:25,679 --> 00:44:27,360
you keep them with? And then and then the temperature

761
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,000
has always been kind of a tricky question. What are

762
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:30,639
your thoughts on that?

763
00:44:31,039 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 5: You know, I've seen discus, you know, in the lago

764
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,559
grounds at Discus was you know, in the low seventies

765
00:44:35,639 --> 00:44:38,000
there and a lot of the places, you know, the

766
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,639
waters probably in the eighties, and some places it might

767
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,000
be in the upper eighties, you know, So it ranges

768
00:44:44,039 --> 00:44:46,519
in the wild of what discus now I know, the

769
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,320
one ex border that you know, I spent a lot

770
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,440
of time with. His fish tend to be warm, and

771
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,920
all his fish when they when they whether they're found

772
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,679
in a cooler water or not, seem to do really

773
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:04,280
well in high temperatures. Water. High temperatures can also be

774
00:45:04,519 --> 00:45:07,760
sort of a wall to a vector for various diseases.

775
00:45:08,119 --> 00:45:10,199
You know, discus can take it pretty high. They can

776
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,920
take it up to like eighty eight degrees. I believe

777
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,679
a lot of the aquaculture discus tend to be raised

778
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:20,079
in a lot more warmer water environments. But in general,

779
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,719
you know, I would say I keep my discus. If

780
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:24,760
I'm keeping them with other fish, I'm keeping them or

781
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,480
in planetings, I'm keeping them around eighty to eighty two.

782
00:45:27,559 --> 00:45:29,599
If I'm keeping them by themselves, I tend to keep

783
00:45:29,639 --> 00:45:33,440
them around eighty four to eighty five if they seem

784
00:45:33,519 --> 00:45:35,960
to if they're new discus that I'm getting in I'm

785
00:45:36,039 --> 00:45:39,000
quarantining them, I'll tend to keep the temperature a little

786
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,679
bit above eighty. But I think in general it can.

787
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,239
It can definitely, you know, they can be highly variable,

788
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:46,519
you know.

789
00:45:47,079 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 3: Okay, and then on nutrition wise, wild costs pretty easy

790
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,519
to acclimate to kind of prepare diets or what's your

791
00:45:53,559 --> 00:45:54,039
thoughts on that?

792
00:45:54,639 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I asked, you know, when I first

793
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,320
met Victor at Stadem discus go I asked, what are

794
00:46:01,559 --> 00:46:04,360
what are you feeding your discus? And he goes, oh,

795
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,480
and the Amazon It's hard to get good food. But

796
00:46:06,599 --> 00:46:09,159
you know, I'm using this this brand of flake food

797
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,519
and all at that at the time I visited him,

798
00:46:11,519 --> 00:46:14,840
all he was feeding his fish was flake.

799
00:46:14,639 --> 00:46:17,199
Speaker 3: Food, okay, and they were and they were going for it.

800
00:46:17,559 --> 00:46:20,679
At least, you know, if it's not necessarily ideal. They're

801
00:46:20,679 --> 00:46:21,239
still eating it.

802
00:46:21,559 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 5: Oh they were devouring it. And these fish were looking

803
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,119
amazing on flakefood. That was what I was like, Wow,

804
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,000
this is this is pretty amazing, you know, I mean

805
00:46:31,119 --> 00:46:33,320
it was just there. He used to have I think

806
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,599
at Geo Vegas in the tank because he would feed

807
00:46:36,679 --> 00:46:39,840
him heavily. Discus, you know, they need to eat, so

808
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:41,800
you want to make sure you feed your discus three

809
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,760
plus times a day ideally, especially if they're younger discus.

810
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense. And if it's warmer, I'm assuming

811
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,039
the metabolism is going up as well.

812
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:54,119
Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah, But I mean in captivity, I feel

813
00:46:54,199 --> 00:46:57,079
that pet foods in general, including fish foods, have really

814
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,440
made great strides and in the past twenty years, and

815
00:47:01,559 --> 00:47:03,920
I think there's a lot of really good fish foods

816
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,760
available on the market. When I was younger, I was

817
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,920
I used to do blackworms. Now the trade in black

818
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,960
worms just seems supply seems to go in and out

819
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,159
and the prices of skyrocketed. But I do you know,

820
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,840
give my discuss and I guess i'd ask you the

821
00:47:21,039 --> 00:47:25,000
question is is how nutrition is are freeze dried foods

822
00:47:25,599 --> 00:47:26,880
or dehydrated foods?

823
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 3: I mean I would think the freeze, the dehydrated freeze,

824
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,519
driede I mean it they can be nutritional. You know,

825
00:47:33,559 --> 00:47:36,159
we usually talk about as you you know, just kind

826
00:47:36,159 --> 00:47:38,159
of a mix just to try to not put all

827
00:47:38,159 --> 00:47:41,920
your eggs in one basket to nutrition. But yeah, I

828
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,519
mean it definitely probably as a supplement, you know, it

829
00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:45,719
probably could be pretty good.

830
00:47:46,039 --> 00:47:48,639
Speaker 2: The fresh stuff is always good, and if the yeah, like.

831
00:47:48,679 --> 00:47:50,679
Speaker 3: You mentioned that, I agree, there's a lot better high

832
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,920
quality kind of a nutritional you know, commercial diets now,

833
00:47:55,039 --> 00:47:56,000
so that does help.

834
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I mean I think what I've been seeing

835
00:47:58,039 --> 00:48:00,159
a lot with my discuses. I give them, you know,

836
00:48:00,519 --> 00:48:03,920
mainly pellets and flakes, and then I give them frozen

837
00:48:04,039 --> 00:48:07,840
and the dehydrated foods as sort of a supplement. You know,

838
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,840
I really like giving discus miso shrimp. Discus seem to

839
00:48:12,039 --> 00:48:16,320
like bloodworms. I'm not certain how nutritional bloodworms are. That's

840
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:17,239
another question for you.

841
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,119
Speaker 2: I guess maybe I think they have some value.

842
00:48:20,119 --> 00:48:22,639
Speaker 3: Again, I'm definitely not an nutritionness but yeah, I always

843
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,800
kind of go with the fresh is good, really good quality,

844
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,239
commercial is great, and then you know, just everything in

845
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,800
moderation and you know, a good mix. But that Yeah,

846
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:32,760
definitely good questions.

847
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,519
Speaker 5: I think with a high quality pellet and flake food,

848
00:48:36,599 --> 00:48:38,480
I think I think, you know, even if you just

849
00:48:38,519 --> 00:48:41,239
do the pellets, there's just there's some great there's just

850
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,719
great foods out there, a lot of different brands that

851
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,320
are doing a great job. And you know, with the discus,

852
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,719
a higher protein food is what I think is really

853
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:54,719
important for them. And you know, multiple feedings a days.

854
00:48:55,199 --> 00:48:57,320
They just need to eat, you know. I see a

855
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:02,079
lot of discus and captivity that whether they're wilder captive

856
00:49:02,159 --> 00:49:05,960
that are just not being fed at the level that

857
00:49:06,519 --> 00:49:07,760
they need and they're just skinny.

858
00:49:08,199 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 3: Okay, that makes sense. Well, we're getting close to the end.

859
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,519
I did have one more quick question before we close up,

860
00:49:14,599 --> 00:49:17,599
and what's your thoughts on I guess kind of numbers

861
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,679
and sex ratios in a tank.

862
00:49:21,119 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 2: I really like to you know, for.

863
00:49:23,599 --> 00:49:25,800
Speaker 5: An average home aquarium, I like to say, you know,

864
00:49:26,039 --> 00:49:29,840
one adult discus, you know, that's four to six inches

865
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,599
per every eight to ten gallons of water. Yes, do

866
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:39,000
people keep them in higher concentrations than that, yes, but

867
00:49:39,199 --> 00:49:43,000
remember when you are keeping discus in such high concentrations,

868
00:49:43,079 --> 00:49:45,719
you have to feed them, you have to do consistent

869
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,639
water changes, water quality, is very important with discus. You know,

870
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:55,239
big water changes frequently are are really important to have

871
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:56,559
happy healthy discus.

872
00:49:57,079 --> 00:50:00,159
Speaker 3: Any issues with like males or females or have to

873
00:50:00,199 --> 00:50:00,719
worry about that.

874
00:50:01,119 --> 00:50:04,559
Speaker 5: They will pair off and they can create a territory. Now,

875
00:50:04,679 --> 00:50:08,199
I did visit a discus breeder this year and he

876
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,599
had like in one hundred and twenty five gallon tank.

877
00:50:10,679 --> 00:50:13,960
I think he had like six. He had multiple breeding

878
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,679
pairs and multiple of them were spawning in their little section.

879
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,239
But you know, discus can be a little bit difficult

880
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,800
to sex, but you know, keeping them in pairs or

881
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,559
probably you know, of the best, probably similar to what

882
00:50:24,559 --> 00:50:25,639
you would do with the angel fish.

883
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 1: You know.

884
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,639
Speaker 3: Okay, sounds good. Well, unfortunately we're out of time. I

885
00:50:30,199 --> 00:50:32,599
definitely want to thank our guests, a couple of undercar

886
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,840
and our producer, Mark Winner for making the show possible.

887
00:50:36,119 --> 00:50:37,840
So as I always kind of like to ask, do

888
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,159
you have any final words of wisdom or thoughts for

889
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:40,920
our listeners?

890
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 5: Well, with wild Discus, I will say that they definitely

891
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,880
have a personality. That's what really got me back into Discus.

892
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,800
I'd kind of gotten out of Discus for a while.

893
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,760
It was a quariumc importer in the US that sent

894
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,639
me a video of one of her wild discus beating

895
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:03,280
up a hike cycling and that got my attention. I've

896
00:51:03,519 --> 00:51:07,039
sort of dug into just the variety and where these

897
00:51:07,079 --> 00:51:12,079
fish live, and there's just some exciting, exciting wild discus. Also, again,

898
00:51:12,159 --> 00:51:15,719
when you buy wild discus, you also are supporting you know,

899
00:51:16,199 --> 00:51:19,159
local communities, you know, and if you choose to get

900
00:51:19,199 --> 00:51:22,199
aquaculture discus, that's perfectly fine. There's a lot of great

901
00:51:22,199 --> 00:51:26,679
aquaculture farms that support the demand for you know, for

902
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:31,239
discus fish in the country. But don't buy aquaculture discus

903
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:35,679
if you think that's you know, the more environmental aspect

904
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:37,920
of it. You know, if you think wild collecting discus

905
00:51:38,199 --> 00:51:40,920
is bad for the environment, it's it's not the case.

906
00:51:41,039 --> 00:51:41,199
Speaker 2: You know.

907
00:51:41,639 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 5: One last story I I guess I'll leave you with

908
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,599
is in the ton Equity Beta where these really red

909
00:51:46,639 --> 00:51:51,320
discus came from. A storm came through and basically totaled

910
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:55,840
their school and it was the Santa Discus. He actually

911
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,199
built them a new school, you know, because they're is

912
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,119
this partnership between them that they depend on each other.

913
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,159
And so if if their communities is hurt, so that

914
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:11,000
that means that exporters are also hurt, so you see

915
00:52:11,079 --> 00:52:14,960
the money going back to these communities as well as

916
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,000
you know, he sort of acts as like the guy

917
00:52:18,519 --> 00:52:21,119
that handles conflict, and it was it was pretty awesome

918
00:52:21,159 --> 00:52:23,760
to see him wear his many hats with these communities.

919
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,920
But you know, there's a strong relationship between these exporters

920
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,199
and these communities and they take care of each other.

921
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:31,400
So that's pretty awesome.

922
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,199
Speaker 3: That's great, definitely, definitely a great ending and kind of

923
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,239
reminder for folks that there is a lot of good

924
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,400
sustainable collection out there. And I kind of did appreciate

925
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,679
your which makes a lot of sense the fact in

926
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,320
the early days where we were not getting maybe the

927
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,000
nicest discus because we didn't want to pay that much.

928
00:52:48,559 --> 00:52:51,199
Speaker 5: Back back in the days, they weren't being shipped properly.

929
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,159
So when they would come, yeah, beating the child, there

930
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,039
just be black or brown whatever, you know. And that's

931
00:52:56,079 --> 00:52:58,559
the other thing with wild discus is they take a

932
00:52:58,599 --> 00:53:00,719
little bit longer to color up putting your tank, but

933
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,480
when they do color up, it's pretty amazing and you

934
00:53:03,559 --> 00:53:06,079
get just a variety of colors that you do in

935
00:53:06,199 --> 00:53:07,559
capture strains.

936
00:53:07,199 --> 00:53:08,320
Speaker 2: You know, very cool.

937
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,119
Speaker 3: Well, thanks again, and I really appreciate your taking your time.

938
00:53:13,199 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 2: Copy and we'll talk to you a lot more, I'm

939
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:16,440
sure in the future.

940
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,199
Speaker 3: Please be sure to check out Copyo's web links found

941
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:23,079
on his Aquarium Media episode page. If you have any questions, comments,

942
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,320
or ideas for a show, email me at doctor Roy

943
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:27,800
at petlife radio dot com.

944
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 2: That's d R. R O y at petlife radio dot com.

945
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Speaker 3: Until next time, please visit your local aquarium stores and

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keep your tanks clean and.

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Speaker 2: Your fish healthy, and definitely think about discus for your

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next tank.

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Speaker 1: Let's Talk Pats every week on demand only on Petlife

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Radio dot com.

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Speaker 3: Five