WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Big Food and bed.

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<v Speaker 2>With Cliff and Bubo.

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<v Speaker 1>These guys are your favorites, so like say subscribe and

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<v Speaker 1>raid it five star and me today listening watching limb

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<v Speaker 1>always keep it Squatching.

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<v Speaker 3>And now you're hosts Cliff Barrickman and James Bubo Fay.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey boats. What's happening man? Do just living man, just

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<v Speaker 2>working at the mill of the last couple of days.

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<v Speaker 2>That's about. Oh yeah, you saw the mill when you

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<v Speaker 2>were over here, so.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah that's a nice one, a little nice Alaska now.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just just like chipping away at the logs, man,

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<v Speaker 2>I think we got h another two or three or

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<v Speaker 2>more done. Kind of an interesting thing happened in the

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<v Speaker 2>way I mean with the mill. I mean, this isn't

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<v Speaker 2>a mill podcast, but it's kind of cool anyway. So

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I live next to that big chunk of BLM, right,

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<v Speaker 2>there's one dude that lives up on that BLM land

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<v Speaker 2>and I did not know this, and we've had some

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<v Speaker 2>stuff the big some bigfoot stuff has happened over on

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<v Speaker 2>that BLM land and only one house up there. Really

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<v Speaker 2>there's two houses, a rental house and the guy who

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<v Speaker 2>lives up there. It's about a hundred hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 2>acres that the guy owns and the rest of it

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<v Speaker 2>his public land for quite a while, quite a ways.

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<v Speaker 2>And yeah, I've heard some stuff around the house. I

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<v Speaker 2>think we have bigfoots every once in a while. I

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<v Speaker 2>probably noticed them two times a year, maybe three year

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<v Speaker 2>or four if you include Melissa's noticings as well. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think I mentioned this on the podcast about a

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<v Speaker 2>year and a half ago or something. I remember it

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<v Speaker 2>was winter, maybe it was. I don't think it was

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<v Speaker 2>his past winter. I think it was the one before.

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<v Speaker 2>My neighbor was walking her dogs over there, and she

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<v Speaker 2>was walking down the road and there was still snow

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<v Speaker 2>in the ground walking down the road, and then at

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<v Speaker 2>some point there was like a series of knocks, like

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<v Speaker 2>really loud knocks when she's walking her dogs, and her

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<v Speaker 2>dogs all looked as she goes, oh, that's weird, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>And this woman doesn't believe in sasquatches. She thinks I'm

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<v Speaker 2>a weirdo, right, and I may or may not be

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<v Speaker 2>a weirdo, but that you know, she also doesn't believe

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<v Speaker 2>in sasas watches. So she's and she goes, ah, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>that's odd. Something must have fallen out of the train

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<v Speaker 2>and she walks another you know, half mile or mile

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<v Speaker 2>down the road, just walking her dog. Soon her thing

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<v Speaker 2>comes back and at the same place that happens again,

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<v Speaker 2>bam bam bam bam bam or something like that. And

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<v Speaker 2>that time she said, no, that's scared the hell out

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<v Speaker 2>of her. Basically, you know, she didn't think that sasquatches

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<v Speaker 2>are real. She probably still doesn't, but she can't explain

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<v Speaker 2>what she heard. It's clearly not anything falling, and it

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<v Speaker 2>really scared her. And I got a text from her

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<v Speaker 2>when she was still in realized, like, Cliff, you know

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<v Speaker 2>how you feel about these things. This just happened, And

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<v Speaker 2>I went ooh, you know, cause that's right next door, man,

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<v Speaker 2>That's like a mile from my house, you know. So

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<v Speaker 2>I sit down there on the side by side and

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<v Speaker 2>walk around for like an hour and a half. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't find anything long and short of it, but so,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, so stuff happens out there, basically is my point,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, on the other side of it, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like another two miles down that same road, when there's

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<v Speaker 2>actually people living. Everybody has like five to twenty acres.

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<v Speaker 4>That sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>We got a report in the Museum from twenty seventeen.

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<v Speaker 2>A woman saw one walking through her yard at like

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<v Speaker 2>four point thirty in the morning while she's having coffee. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of stuff. You know. I knew it was

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<v Speaker 2>a good area. That's why I chose this property when

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<v Speaker 2>I bought it. Right What I didn't know is that

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<v Speaker 2>the property owner up there he had never seen anything.

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<v Speaker 2>He said, he's heard some really weird noises. He doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>know what they were, you know, women screaming and stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>And I said, well, it could be cats. He goes, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know about that. Maybe you know, but still, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>he's heard some stuff he can't explain up there, but

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<v Speaker 2>has never seen anything or whatever. He told me that

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<v Speaker 2>that property used to be a nursery for exotic species

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<v Speaker 2>like non native, non organ native species, which is why

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<v Speaker 2>he was down on my property recently with the mill

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<v Speaker 2>doing stuff with the neighbors. Because he had a chestnut

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<v Speaker 2>tree on his property, and chestnuts are very rare because

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<v Speaker 2>of a blight that happened back east and all that

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<v Speaker 2>other stuff, you know, So he had some really unusual

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<v Speaker 2>trees and endangered tree and chestnuts, great wood for outdoor

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<v Speaker 2>furniture and all this other stuff. So he was milling

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<v Speaker 2>up a chestnut tree on his property and he's, you

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<v Speaker 2>know's were their handful of other ones. And of course

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<v Speaker 2>chestnut trees make chestnuts. Bears and other animals love chestnuts.

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<v Speaker 2>But still, I thought that was kind of interesting. It's like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>isn't that something that whole property there was actually a

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<v Speaker 2>nursery for non native species, thus in creating a larger,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, variety of you know, plant life and stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>That's interesting. That's an area I got to continue looking into.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, that's the first time I'd ever met

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<v Speaker 2>that particular neighbor because he is like a mile and

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<v Speaker 2>a half down the road or something. But he did say, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>if you ever want to come walk around on the

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<v Speaker 2>property and look for your big friends, you're welcome to

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<v Speaker 2>ooh yeah, very cool. So anyway, so that's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>interesting news because I know they're near my house sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>I just don't know when, unfortunately, But still, how cool

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<v Speaker 2>is that exotic plant nursery you know, decades and decades

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<v Speaker 2>and decades ago right next door that might be drawing

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<v Speaker 2>in a slightly higher number of animals that are looking

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<v Speaker 2>for a variety of plant life. You know, I know

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<v Speaker 2>there are a lot of bears over there, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>all the neighbors and stuff. They go bear hunting and

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<v Speaker 2>stuff over there. So anyway, I thought that was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of cool.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I got rid of the trailer.

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<v Speaker 2>No, say it isn't true, or say it is, because

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<v Speaker 2>I know I got rid of the trailer. I was

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<v Speaker 2>thrilled about that. But what happened? Tell us about it.

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<v Speaker 3>I wanted to play some sad piano music because this

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<v Speaker 3>is a sad day.

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<v Speaker 2>Indeed, can you play some triumphant marching music.

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<v Speaker 4>As you can get it for?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry for your lost, Bobo. I think it's a

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<v Speaker 2>loss for all of us here on Big Fin and beyond.

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<v Speaker 4>It's starting to rain earlier this year than that, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>the usual war rain was on the way, and I

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<v Speaker 4>was like, I just got to get rid of it.

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<v Speaker 2>You're a big man, Bobo, you really are.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah. It was it was tough. I mean I was

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<v Speaker 4>having second thoughts to the whole time. I was like,

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<v Speaker 4>I could just cover it with the tarp and fix

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<v Speaker 4>it up when I can, and I like that gonna happen.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's good, it's good that you did that. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>loving something is about letting it go. Yeah, good for you, Bob.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm so sorry for your loss.

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<v Speaker 4>So I'll miss him for her, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Can't say the same, but man, I really feel for you.

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<v Speaker 4>Write on something else. What we got this week for it?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, it's that time of the month or bi monthly

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<v Speaker 3>or whenever we feel like it to do our topical episode.

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<v Speaker 3>And so you guys always send me articles that you

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<v Speaker 3>come across online or things that pop up in the

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<v Speaker 3>news feed that are tangentially Sasquatch related or ape related

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<v Speaker 3>in some way, and then whenever it's time for one

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<v Speaker 3>of these episodes, I just compile them all send the

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<v Speaker 3>email over. So you should have gotten that email, and

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<v Speaker 3>we got a list of squatchy relevant items to go

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<v Speaker 3>through today.

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<v Speaker 2>Well let's just hit them in order or something from

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<v Speaker 2>according to the email that will work for me. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>well the first one here, the first one is, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>this is all over the news. Of course, we happen

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<v Speaker 2>to get it from a website fizz dot org, as

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<v Speaker 2>in like physics phys dot org. It's the science website.

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<v Speaker 2>I get a lot of stuff from these guys, really

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<v Speaker 2>really good source for science news and all that sort

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<v Speaker 2>of stuff. And the title of this one caught my eye.

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<v Speaker 2>Smallest armbone in the human fossil record, sheds light on

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<v Speaker 2>the dawn of Homo flurisiensis. Now, of course, Homo fleurixiensis

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<v Speaker 2>is is an important topic for bigfooters. For anybody interested

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<v Speaker 2>in this kind of subject like bigfoots and yeties and stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>you really really ought to be looking into human evolution.

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<v Speaker 2>It is just full of good information that is directly

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<v Speaker 2>pertaining to the sasquatch subject, you know, because clearly sasquatches

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<v Speaker 2>are related to us and just like all the other

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<v Speaker 2>ape species. So if you're a longtime listener a Bigfoot

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<v Speaker 2>and Beyond, you know that we've had doctor Fourth on

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<v Speaker 2>doctor Gregory Fourth on the podcast before he wrote a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of very very important books because he's a very

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<v Speaker 2>well respected anthropologist and he is a proponent of the

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<v Speaker 2>idea that some small hominin unknown species of upright ape

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<v Speaker 2>is still alive on the island of Flores, which is

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<v Speaker 2>super important because that's where the fossils for Homo fleuresiensis

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<v Speaker 2>come from. Homo fluresiensis made big news back in the

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<v Speaker 2>early two thousands. At some point, they.

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<v Speaker 4>Never cauught them in those articles they'd ever say in

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<v Speaker 4>one respective scientist it's worked on the island, even they

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<v Speaker 4>were alive one hundred years ago. They never mentioned that

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<v Speaker 4>in any of the articles.

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<v Speaker 2>No, he's largely ignored, unfortunately at this point, super unfortunate

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<v Speaker 2>because he has such important things to say. I think,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, yeah, totally. I don't get it, and I

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<v Speaker 2>don't get it. And you know, in this article they

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<v Speaker 2>have a certain leaning. I see a certain maybe not agenda,

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<v Speaker 2>because that suggests something a little bit more nefarious. But

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<v Speaker 2>but well let's get into basically. The article basically tells

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<v Speaker 2>us that, okay, they kind of give a background on

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<v Speaker 2>Homo floresiensis. These things were small, they're about three feet

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<v Speaker 2>tall a little bit more. And a new species was

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<v Speaker 2>based on one individual specimen that was unearthed in two

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<v Speaker 2>thousand and three from a cave called lang Bua. I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's I don't know, that's how you pronounce it

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<v Speaker 2>sounds right? Yeah, Well, thank you, thank you. I am

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<v Speaker 2>not even close to fluent in Indonesian, so I think

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<v Speaker 2>you for your help there, bobo. Yeah. So in two

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<v Speaker 2>thousand and three they unearthed are an individual of a

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<v Speaker 2>new species and they named it Homo fleuriesiensis after the

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<v Speaker 2>island of Flores, right, Flores fluriesi ences And after much

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<v Speaker 2>wrangling and going back and forth, they've kind of settled

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<v Speaker 2>on this idea that it probably went like the fossils

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<v Speaker 2>are from about fifty thousand years ago, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>a singular specie or singular specimen from the species, right,

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<v Speaker 2>so oh, we need to learn more. So obviously they've

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<v Speaker 2>been digging around quite a bit in that general area

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<v Speaker 2>since then, and at some point they ran across elements

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<v Speaker 2>of three different individuals from a site about thirty or

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<v Speaker 2>so miles to the east at a place called Mata

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<v Speaker 2>Mangay I think Mennge. I'm not sure if it's Mangay

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<v Speaker 2>or Mange, I'm not sure, but either way, about thirty

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<v Speaker 2>miles to the east they ran across three new individuals,

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<v Speaker 2>but at first they mostly had teeth. By my reading

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<v Speaker 2>of it, they mostly had teeth. They didn't know much

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<v Speaker 2>about it, and the teeth that they had looked like

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<v Speaker 2>it was kind of like Homo fleuresiensis, maybe a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit more archaic, a little bit earlier in the fossil record.

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<v Speaker 2>They had some The dentation is kind of similar to

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<v Speaker 2>homorectus in some ways. But they kept digging around and

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<v Speaker 2>they finally found some post cranial fossils. Post cranial, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>is the way people say fossils from below the skull.

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<v Speaker 2>Post cranial makes sense right below the skull. So in

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<v Speaker 2>other words, they got something else besides a tooth or

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<v Speaker 2>a mandible or a part of a cranium. And this

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<v Speaker 2>was a small segment of an armbone. Now, based on

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<v Speaker 2>what they learned from Homo threes diensists and some other

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<v Speaker 2>general you know, palewanthropological measurements, they're guessing that this particular

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<v Speaker 2>individual that they have the armbone for was about one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred centimeters tall. That's about thirty nine inches tall, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>something like that, just a meter shall we say a

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<v Speaker 2>meter tall, a little bit more than a yard. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>it's interesting, and it was super interesting to them because

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<v Speaker 2>it is smaller. It's six centimeters shorter than what they

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<v Speaker 2>guess at the first specimen of Homo three dances was.

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<v Speaker 2>Now you said, well, you're saying, well, six centimeters that's

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<v Speaker 2>not very much, and you're right, it's not. So the

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<v Speaker 2>question is does this represent some sort of sexual dimorphism?

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, I don't even know, now that I'm

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<v Speaker 2>saying that out loud, I don't know what the sex

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<v Speaker 2>of that first specimen was, so anyway, or does it

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<v Speaker 2>just show us some sort of you know, genetic variation

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<v Speaker 2>within the species, because I mean, obviously, like I'm five

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<v Speaker 2>foot eight, Bobo's about nine foot ten or something like that.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's obviously a lot of you know, within the

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<v Speaker 2>same species, there's a lot of variation. And you figure

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<v Speaker 2>out it's only six centimeters, but now consider that this

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<v Speaker 2>thing's you know, about one hundred centimeters. That's a six

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<v Speaker 2>percent difference. That's pretty big, you know, that's a five

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<v Speaker 2>or six percent difference between these two species. That's pretty big,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. So I don't know, I don't know. But

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<v Speaker 2>the article it really seems to side with this idea

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<v Speaker 2>that the Homo three dances species is coming from Homo erectus.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'd like to point out that that's not necessarily true.

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<v Speaker 2>That's not necessarily true.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I think it's really interesting that these new finds

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<v Speaker 3>are six hundred and fifty thousand years older, roughly speaking,

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<v Speaker 3>and are actually smaller, and yet they still try to

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<v Speaker 3>make the case that, well, it looks like whatever because

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<v Speaker 3>they're still making the case that these were descended from

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<v Speaker 3>Homo erectus as a consequence of something akin to island

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<v Speaker 3>dwarfsm And now that they can look so much further

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<v Speaker 3>back in time and see that, you know, they're still

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<v Speaker 3>small back then, and actually even smaller that they're like, well,

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<v Speaker 3>it appears that some Homo erectus ended up on this

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<v Speaker 3>remote Indonesian island about a million years ago and then

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<v Speaker 3>rapidly underwent a dwarf asm, which is like, now, the

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<v Speaker 3>further back in time you look to still see this

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<v Speaker 3>really diminutive size sort of indicates that they probably were

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<v Speaker 3>somewhere close to that size prior to arriving on this island,

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<v Speaker 3>at least that would be my interpretation of that. So

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<v Speaker 3>I found that kind of funny. You ever read doctor

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<v Speaker 3>Meldrim's early I wouldn't quite call it a rebuttal, but

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<v Speaker 3>it's sort of like his way in on what he

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<v Speaker 3>felt was like a premature designation of fluoresciences to the

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<v Speaker 3>genus Homo. He recently actually reposted that online, but the

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<v Speaker 3>article the version that he posted are like screenshots of

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<v Speaker 3>the PDF, so it's not like something I can link to.

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<v Speaker 3>But I do have all these screenshots. In fact, I'll

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<v Speaker 3>post them for members and maybe in the meantime I

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<v Speaker 3>can email him and say, hey, is there a link

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<v Speaker 3>to a PDF or a link to a written article

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<v Speaker 3>online so we could post it easily for people to

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<v Speaker 3>read the text without having to see like four different

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<v Speaker 3>image files. But you know, Meldrim has been making this

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<v Speaker 3>case for a long time that Noah doesn't seem like

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<v Speaker 3>having descended from erect is the most likely or the

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<v Speaker 3>more parsimonious hypothesis here.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Also, doctor Meldrim's not alone in this, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>either in that stance. I know when Darren Naish was

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<v Speaker 2>here visiting and we had them over for dinner, I

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<v Speaker 2>think we had a conversation about HOMEO three sansus came up.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was here, might have been in the

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<v Speaker 2>field when we went out to the woods. But he said,

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<v Speaker 2>he said straight out, and if Darren, Darren, if you're

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<v Speaker 2>listening and I'm incorrect, let me know. But he said,

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<v Speaker 2>straight out, no, these are australopithesnes.

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<v Speaker 4>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought that was just fascinating. And of course when

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<v Speaker 2>this article hit the you know, digital news stand, just

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<v Speaker 2>in case Jeff missed it, I sent it to doctor Meldrum.

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<v Speaker 2>I said, hey, do you see this and uh, and

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<v Speaker 2>he pointed out that, uh, Debbie argues paper on morphometrics

298
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<v Speaker 2>of the skull linked it to more primitive forms, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and I know doctor Meldrim's one hundred percent with that.

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<v Speaker 2>And then so I said, Debbie Argue, I know that name.

301
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<v Speaker 2>I can't place it. So actually, I just like a

302
00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:40.039
<v Speaker 2>week a couple of weeks ago, I bought her book

303
00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:43.080
<v Speaker 2>and it is in Q to be read very very soon.

304
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<v Speaker 2>So I'm really interested in reading what her book is

305
00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:49.240
<v Speaker 2>about her conclusions in the book, and I need to

306
00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:51.840
<v Speaker 2>I probably need to dig up her paper paper on

307
00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:53.200
<v Speaker 2>this and take a look.

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<v Speaker 4>The reason.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, with all these articles that we do on

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<v Speaker 2>our topical discussions and whatnot, we talk about the article

311
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<v Speaker 2>a little bit, we talk about what we find interesting,

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<v Speaker 2>and then at the end we always try to tie

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<v Speaker 2>it back into sasquatches, you know. And for me, the

314
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<v Speaker 2>big find here, okay, the big find here is that

315
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<v Speaker 2>a primitive for lack of a better term, like an

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<v Speaker 2>archaic form of Homo escaped Africa pretty early, pretty early,

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<v Speaker 2>because you know, we know that Homo erectus escaped Africa.

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<v Speaker 2>Lots and lots of Homo erectus fossils are found in Africa,

319
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<v Speaker 2>but they're also found in other places, and in fact, everybody,

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<v Speaker 2>most people, I think I've probably heard of Java Man.

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<v Speaker 2>That was the type specimen, that was the holotype for

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<v Speaker 2>the species Homo erectus, and it was found in Java,

323
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<v Speaker 2>hence the name Java Man. So the very holotype, the

324
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<v Speaker 2>very first specimen of Homo erectus was found in Indonesia,

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<v Speaker 2>so very very interesting, you know, and of course home

326
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<v Speaker 2>Erectus isn't really I wouldn't really call that an archaic species,

327
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<v Speaker 2>you know, very very successful. They were, you know, five

328
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<v Speaker 2>feet tall, five and a half feet taller, so they

329
00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:59.240
<v Speaker 2>use fire. They were very pretty pretty advanced, you know,

330
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<v Speaker 2>they weren't. Aren't that far from us honestly back in

331
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<v Speaker 2>time and in other ways as well. Probably, But the

332
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<v Speaker 2>fact that they're legitimate scientists, you know, are pointing out

333
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<v Speaker 2>that Homo fleur is the insists is pretty our kick.

334
00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:18.200
<v Speaker 2>If they're not australopithescenes, they're early early homo habilists. That

335
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<v Speaker 2>is significant because it shows that kind of inhuman homonym

336
00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:26.639
<v Speaker 2>hominin's with an N at the end remember hominin. Just

337
00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:32.799
<v Speaker 2>remind everybody hominin with an N is any human relative

338
00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:34.759
<v Speaker 2>doesn't have to be an ancestor, but it can be

339
00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:38.639
<v Speaker 2>relative that is on the family tree at any point

340
00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:46.759
<v Speaker 2>since chimpanzees and humans last shared a common ancestor. Stay

341
00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:49.840
<v Speaker 2>tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo

342
00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:59.799
<v Speaker 2>will be right back after these messages. But anyway, fleur

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<v Speaker 2>is ensists in Indonesia, on the Island of Flores, and

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps other places too. Well, well, you look at the

345
00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:08.920
<v Speaker 2>Philippines with Homo luzon ensists. Probably something very similar. An

346
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<v Speaker 2>early archaic hominin did in fact radiate out of Africa,

347
00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:16.880
<v Speaker 2>and that is super important because it lays the foundation

348
00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:20.880
<v Speaker 2>for sasquatches essentially. You know, back in the seventies or whatever,

349
00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:24.559
<v Speaker 2>sixties and seventies, when all the paleoonthropologists were saying, no, no,

350
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<v Speaker 2>big butt isn't real because it can't be real, you know,

351
00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:28.680
<v Speaker 2>there are One of the reasons they had is that, like,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't have any early human fossils anywhere else except

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<v Speaker 2>for Africa. Basically, you know, maybe Java man was discovered

354
00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:37.480
<v Speaker 2>at that point. I don't know when that came up,

355
00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:40.079
<v Speaker 2>but still you hear what I'm saying, because sasquatches are

356
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<v Speaker 2>clearly rather archaic. You know, they probably have a fairly

357
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<v Speaker 2>small brain despite their large size, you know, proportionally small brain.

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<v Speaker 2>They don't show any signs of fashioning tools, really nothing

359
00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:55.119
<v Speaker 2>that we can be pointed to. They don't have stuff,

360
00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:58.960
<v Speaker 2>which is kind of one of the defining characteristics of humans.

361
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<v Speaker 2>And a lot of ways they're just simply not humans. Right,

362
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:04.680
<v Speaker 2>there's something else. They're sasquatches, you know, they don't have

363
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<v Speaker 2>to be human like you respected their sasquatches and the

364
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<v Speaker 2>fact that an early archaic hominin did radiate out of

365
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<v Speaker 2>Africa is significant for the sasquatch argument, I think very much.

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<v Speaker 3>So Again, I do find I mean, they do give

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<v Speaker 3>some lip service. Two competing theories. I mean, there's a

368
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<v Speaker 3>quote in here.

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<v Speaker 4>Quote.

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<v Speaker 3>Another theory is that the hobbit, you know, which is

371
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<v Speaker 3>referring to homofluoresciensis, is a late surviving remnant of a

372
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<v Speaker 3>more ancient hominin from Africa that predates Homo erectus and

373
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<v Speaker 3>was small and stature to begin with, in which case,

374
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<v Speaker 3>possible candidates include Homo habilists or the famous Lucy Australopithecus saparensis.

375
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<v Speaker 3>So at least they do sort of nod to that,

376
00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:43.839
<v Speaker 3>But you know, it ends on that quote from Professor

377
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<v Speaker 3>Brumm saying, quote, the new fossils strongly suggest that the

378
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<v Speaker 3>Hobbit story did indeed begin when a group of early

379
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<v Speaker 3>Asian hominins known as Homo erectus somehow became isolated on

380
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<v Speaker 3>this remote Indonesian island perhaps one million years ago and

381
00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:02.119
<v Speaker 3>underwent a dramatic body side reduction over time. So again,

382
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:05.160
<v Speaker 3>the further we look back in time, they're pushing that

383
00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:08.960
<v Speaker 3>dwarfism into a smaller and smaller timeframe to say, well,

384
00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:11.839
<v Speaker 3>they arrived perhaps a million years ago, and by seven

385
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<v Speaker 3>hundred thousand years ago they were what'd you say about

386
00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:18.799
<v Speaker 3>thirty nine inches tall. That is a pretty dramatic change

387
00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:20.480
<v Speaker 3>in a very short amount of time. So I do

388
00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:23.119
<v Speaker 3>think it seems more parsimonious that like, well, no, it's

389
00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:25.599
<v Speaker 3>probably the case that they were of small stature before

390
00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:27.799
<v Speaker 3>they arrived on that island, but time will tell.

391
00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:30.799
<v Speaker 2>And also the older specimens is the ones that the

392
00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:34.000
<v Speaker 2>article is really about, the seven hundred thousand year old

393
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:36.480
<v Speaker 2>ones versus the fifty thousand. They're smaller.

394
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:39.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, because we don't know, to your earlier point, whether

395
00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:41.920
<v Speaker 3>this is an example of sexual dimorphism or if it's

396
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:45.480
<v Speaker 3>maybe associated with age, because there's just not enough information here,

397
00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:49.599
<v Speaker 3>you know, if we're talking about subadults or juveniles versus adults.

398
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:52.640
<v Speaker 3>But if there were more of the same on both

399
00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.000
<v Speaker 3>ends of the distribution, you could make the case that

400
00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:58.000
<v Speaker 3>will this suggests that they were actually growing larger over time,

401
00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:00.599
<v Speaker 3>that they were trending towards a larger size. But I

402
00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:05.039
<v Speaker 3>think with just these isolated cases, it's hard to make

403
00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:09.200
<v Speaker 3>that proposition. But at least it suggests that that possibilities open.

404
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:10.720
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Yeah.

405
00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:13.319
<v Speaker 2>And of course, at this point, the jury is honestly

406
00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:15.240
<v Speaker 2>still out, and I think that should be pointed out

407
00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:19.000
<v Speaker 2>because we just don't know enough about the evolutionary history

408
00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:22.319
<v Speaker 2>of Homo floresiensis because we have so few specimens of

409
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:25.759
<v Speaker 2>human ancestors. In general, we have very very few specimens.

410
00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:27.440
<v Speaker 2>I think that's an important thing for all of us

411
00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:30.440
<v Speaker 2>to remember. But you know, the first specimen that was

412
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:34.359
<v Speaker 2>unearthed in two thousand and three, that individual, Okay, we

413
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:38.279
<v Speaker 2>had one individual from that cave, just one, and now

414
00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:41.400
<v Speaker 2>we have I think ten other fossil specimens, ten other

415
00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:43.359
<v Speaker 2>bones if you want to say, you know, teeth or bones,

416
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:49.640
<v Speaker 2>and of four additional individuals, and all of that stuff.

417
00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:52.839
<v Speaker 2>Of the of the four new ones, all of that

418
00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.799
<v Speaker 2>stuff is our teeth and mandibles and cranium except for

419
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:00.440
<v Speaker 2>a partial armbone. So the jury is still we have

420
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:03.200
<v Speaker 2>a lot of learning to do about Homo flre exiances.

421
00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Still we have five individuals documented in the fossil record now,

422
00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:11.559
<v Speaker 2>just five out of the potentially thousands that have existed

423
00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:15.319
<v Speaker 2>over time. So we'll hang out, wait and see. But

424
00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:19.200
<v Speaker 2>all of this stuff, I think really is fantastic for

425
00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:23.480
<v Speaker 2>the idea of relatiominoids in that part of the world.

426
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:26.920
<v Speaker 2>It really really says something about how little we know

427
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:29.839
<v Speaker 2>and how much we still have to learn, and especially

428
00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:34.039
<v Speaker 2>about the possibility of relict species. You know, small numbers

429
00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:37.000
<v Speaker 2>of these things hanging on and far flung corners of

430
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:38.880
<v Speaker 2>the world, just hanging on by a thread, a few

431
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:42.160
<v Speaker 2>hundred or maybe a thousand individuals at the most, basically

432
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:43.960
<v Speaker 2>living under the nose of the humans that live there.

433
00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:48.480
<v Speaker 3>Hey, Bobo, since you booked Gregory fourth, have you stayed

434
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:50.240
<v Speaker 3>in touch with him at all? Like I'd be curious

435
00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:51.960
<v Speaker 3>to hear what he thinks about this, like have you

436
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:53.160
<v Speaker 3>emailed back and forth with him?

437
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:54.359
<v Speaker 4>No? I haven't.

438
00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:56.640
<v Speaker 3>This might be a good opportunity to say, hey, what

439
00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:58.359
<v Speaker 3>do you think about this? Or because I'm in the

440
00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:02.079
<v Speaker 3>same boat with you, Whereas I'm frustrated at how few

441
00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:05.400
<v Speaker 3>times his name is mentioned, because you know, he wrote

442
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:08.160
<v Speaker 3>this incredible academic book that's one of my favorite books

443
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:11.839
<v Speaker 3>about mystery apes, Images of the Wild Man in Southeast Asia,

444
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:15.759
<v Speaker 3>but then that newer book Between Ape and Human which

445
00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:18.519
<v Speaker 3>is just amazing, and yeah, he's he makes a pretty

446
00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:21.480
<v Speaker 3>compelling case. And it's just very sad and frustrating that

447
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:24.839
<v Speaker 3>he wouldn't be asked to comment on some of these things,

448
00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:27.880
<v Speaker 3>because he's one of the few people that's spent a

449
00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:31.759
<v Speaker 3>tremendous amount of time there getting contemporary stories and his

450
00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:34.200
<v Speaker 3>familiarity with these fossils themselves.

451
00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:38.039
<v Speaker 4>He's unique. Yeah, pioneer, he's like they can go to

452
00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:41.200
<v Speaker 4>That's like in the analysism, both sides of it, they

453
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:42.039
<v Speaker 4>just ignore him.

454
00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:46.000
<v Speaker 3>Well, it just goes to show the same sentiment expressed

455
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:49.200
<v Speaker 3>by Krantz and Binnernagel and Meldrum that you do sort

456
00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:51.599
<v Speaker 3>of become a black sheep, so to speak. Would you

457
00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:53.240
<v Speaker 3>stick your neck out and say, hey, there might be

458
00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:56.599
<v Speaker 3>something to these stories. And you would think that, well,

459
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.119
<v Speaker 3>the more evidence that emerges that suggest that, like, oh,

460
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.480
<v Speaker 3>it is an interesting that the stories of this diminutive

461
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.839
<v Speaker 3>hominin happen to be in a place where fossils of

462
00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:09.240
<v Speaker 3>diminutive hominins are being unearthed, should give it some weight

463
00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:10.960
<v Speaker 3>or credence. But people are silent.

464
00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:13.960
<v Speaker 4>Nobody, I mean, out of the thousands and thousands of

465
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:17.720
<v Speaker 4>researchers on these subjects, and it's not a very big area.

466
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.839
<v Speaker 4>You think people would be all over that and no home.

467
00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:23.799
<v Speaker 3>Or even media because you think about, you know, the

468
00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:25.799
<v Speaker 3>way that the media will chase some of these things

469
00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:29.359
<v Speaker 3>down for like a streaming documentary series or even a

470
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:31.839
<v Speaker 3>network TV series. Now, I don't know how difficult it

471
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:35.079
<v Speaker 3>is to film in Indonesia. I know you guys filmed

472
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:38.200
<v Speaker 3>there for Finding Bigfoot. But you would think that if

473
00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:41.160
<v Speaker 3>the scientific community doesn't want to pay attention, that some

474
00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:43.480
<v Speaker 3>media company would be like, oh, this would be an opportunity.

475
00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:46.960
<v Speaker 3>Let's go to flores with Gregory Fourth and get some

476
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:50.160
<v Speaker 3>of these eyewitnesses on camera and see some of these locations.

477
00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:52.440
<v Speaker 3>But it just doesn't seem to be a lot of interest.

478
00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:55.720
<v Speaker 3>I do think it's there's a market difference between the

479
00:23:55.720 --> 00:23:58.960
<v Speaker 3>way that it grips you in terms of the concept

480
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:01.640
<v Speaker 3>of an eight foot tall, you know, eight hundred to

481
00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:05.279
<v Speaker 3>one thousand pound ape is pretty terrifying, whereas like the

482
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:07.960
<v Speaker 3>diminutive ones maybe not so much. So it's not as

483
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:10.839
<v Speaker 3>gripping a narrative. So maybe that's part of it, is

484
00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:12.559
<v Speaker 3>that they're not quite monstrous enough.

485
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:17.200
<v Speaker 2>Well that's why Reality TV, as much as it makes

486
00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:22.359
<v Speaker 2>me cringe, reality TV, unfortunately, is seen as the vanguard

487
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:26.400
<v Speaker 2>of research in this area. Unfortunately, you know, Lauren Coleman

488
00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:28.319
<v Speaker 2>pointed out, it's like, yeah, most of the funding for

489
00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:30.839
<v Speaker 2>any sort of exploration of these topics is now coming

490
00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:36.200
<v Speaker 2>from Reality TV that has no like, absolutely zero obligation

491
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:39.640
<v Speaker 2>to tell the truth or to do real science or

492
00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:44.920
<v Speaker 2>anything like that. It's only only for entertainment purposes. And

493
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:46.319
<v Speaker 2>it's really a shame in that way, you know.

494
00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:50.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I agree, And there is something really gripping about

495
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:53.279
<v Speaker 3>seeing those places and seeing the people involved. Like I

496
00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:56.359
<v Speaker 3>know that a lot of the claims made by Lee

497
00:24:56.440 --> 00:24:59.759
<v Speaker 3>Berger about the Rising Star Cave and some of the

498
00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:02.640
<v Speaker 3>fine there and the implications of those finds are yeah.

499
00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:04.119
<v Speaker 2>The home on the Leady's subjects.

500
00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:07.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, they're hotly contested. But I would encourage everyone

501
00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:10.200
<v Speaker 3>to watch that Netflix documentary if you have Netflix, called

502
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:13.880
<v Speaker 3>Cave of Bones, so that you're basically in the cave

503
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:16.279
<v Speaker 3>and you're seeing it, and you're seeing these great moments

504
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:19.799
<v Speaker 3>with Lee Berger and John Hawks and the others involved,

505
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:22.599
<v Speaker 3>and you know, I think they make a really compelling case.

506
00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:25.440
<v Speaker 3>And time will tell whether their interpretations are correct or not.

507
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:28.119
<v Speaker 3>But most of the people I know who are like, oh,

508
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:31.519
<v Speaker 3>I reject their interpretations. I always ask, well, have you

509
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:34.319
<v Speaker 3>seen the documentary and they've all said no. I'm like, well,

510
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:36.839
<v Speaker 3>you should see it, because it's one thing to read

511
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.720
<v Speaker 3>about the finds in text and read the rebuttals and texts,

512
00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:42.319
<v Speaker 3>and it's another thing to sort of take a digital

513
00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:46.640
<v Speaker 3>virtual journey there. And it's a compelling thing. And I'd

514
00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:49.160
<v Speaker 3>love to at least take a virtual journey to Flores

515
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:51.680
<v Speaker 3>and see this stuff and hear from those witnesses too.

516
00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:57.039
<v Speaker 2>So absolutely there was some talk for a moment amongst

517
00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:03.279
<v Speaker 2>academics to go do an excavation at the cave, in

518
00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:06.599
<v Speaker 2>which okay, and I is it the new ags. I

519
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:08.799
<v Speaker 2>don't remember that the name of the tribe. It's in

520
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:12.720
<v Speaker 2>the other side of the island, Nage, the Naga. Thank

521
00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:14.880
<v Speaker 2>you as kind of close. I'm a visual guys, picturing

522
00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:19.160
<v Speaker 2>in my head, so yeah. At those people there who

523
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:23.000
<v Speaker 2>claimed that the Ebu Gogo was around until about two

524
00:26:23.079 --> 00:26:26.079
<v Speaker 2>hundred years ago also claim that the lasts of the

525
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:29.680
<v Speaker 2>Ebugogo were killed in a cave, which is an interesting

526
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:31.079
<v Speaker 2>thing and now that I think about it, because there's

527
00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:33.359
<v Speaker 2>all sorts of stories here in North America from the

528
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:36.920
<v Speaker 2>native people about Sasquatches being killed in caves and burnt

529
00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:38.680
<v Speaker 2>and seal off the caves and was allowed to go

530
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:41.839
<v Speaker 2>into that sort of stuff. But there is a cave there,

531
00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:45.880
<v Speaker 2>and there was some talk by some PhDs I know

532
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:49.079
<v Speaker 2>of going there and excavating that cave, but they could

533
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:50.519
<v Speaker 2>never get the funding and they ran into a lot

534
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:52.799
<v Speaker 2>of problems with permits. Actually I remember that was a

535
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:56.880
<v Speaker 2>big deal as well. The permitting process was very, very difficult.

536
00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:01.920
<v Speaker 2>And of course the area is just politically turbulent, I

537
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:03.920
<v Speaker 2>think is a good way to say it, in a

538
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:06.200
<v Speaker 2>lot of ways. So I guess that's probably some of

539
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:09.839
<v Speaker 2>the challenges that these scientists face nowadays, whether they're working

540
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:13.640
<v Speaker 2>on flues or anywhere else for that matter, down in Indonesia.

541
00:27:13.720 --> 00:27:16.319
<v Speaker 2>But I would like to see something come from that.

542
00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:18.759
<v Speaker 2>Let that come to fruition at some point, because two

543
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:21.440
<v Speaker 2>hundred years ago there might be bones still, there might

544
00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:23.759
<v Speaker 2>actually be legitimate bones of what they claim to be

545
00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:27.200
<v Speaker 2>ebigogo if that story is true, you know, if it's

546
00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:29.079
<v Speaker 2>not like twisted bolk tales of some sort.

547
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:32.079
<v Speaker 4>Well, the problem is in those caves is the baths

548
00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:35.279
<v Speaker 4>in there. They're wan it's so hot on the pH scale,

549
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:37.400
<v Speaker 4>it just burnt. It just eats all that stuff up.

550
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:39.680
<v Speaker 4>And those staves are littered with baths.

551
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:41.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that might that might be the case, but yeah,

552
00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:43.119
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, do you guys?

553
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:45.279
<v Speaker 3>Remember we had Pat Spain on the podcast and he

554
00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:49.000
<v Speaker 3>had mentioned having worked with someone who said that Fluoresiensis

555
00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:51.960
<v Speaker 3>was still around at least until the nineteen twenties, and

556
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:55.200
<v Speaker 3>he could prove it. Yeah, I think if I remember

557
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:58.400
<v Speaker 3>the story correctly. He passed away shortly thereafter, and Pat

558
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:00.880
<v Speaker 3>never found out exactly, you know, he never got him

559
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:03.160
<v Speaker 3>to elaborate on that, But that's always stuck in my

560
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:05.440
<v Speaker 3>mind after since we had him on the podcast.

561
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:07.599
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well, there you go.

562
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:10.839
<v Speaker 2>That's a that's the first article. Nice rousing discussion about that.

563
00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:16.640
<v Speaker 2>That's cool. Indeed, stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond

564
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:19.640
<v Speaker 2>with Cliff and Bobo. Will be right back after these messages.

565
00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:26.920
<v Speaker 2>Should we go to the next article?

566
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:29.319
<v Speaker 4>What do you think the Spain Great Ape Law?

567
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:32.079
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yeah, do you want to summarize this boger, do

568
00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:33.039
<v Speaker 2>you want me to do it again? Or what do

569
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:33.319
<v Speaker 2>you think?

570
00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:35.759
<v Speaker 4>I mean, it's just basically, yeah, like they're they're trying

571
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:39.440
<v Speaker 4>to decide what kind of rights, like more like human

572
00:28:39.559 --> 00:28:42.799
<v Speaker 4>rights they're going to grant to the great apes. And

573
00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:45.240
<v Speaker 4>I think also was it some of their not just

574
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:47.839
<v Speaker 4>great great apes, but did they include a couple other

575
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:49.759
<v Speaker 4>monkies or lesser apes?

576
00:28:50.359 --> 00:28:54.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, it's it's a This specific article is only

577
00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:57.960
<v Speaker 2>addressing what they call the Great Ape Law or the

578
00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:02.480
<v Speaker 2>Hominid Law. Essentially, there has been talk I think in

579
00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:05.799
<v Speaker 2>Spain this law is going to be in Spain if

580
00:29:05.799 --> 00:29:09.000
<v Speaker 2>it goes through. But there's also talk in Portugal about

581
00:29:09.160 --> 00:29:12.279
<v Speaker 2>including cetations and I think that's a great idea Wales

582
00:29:12.279 --> 00:29:13.640
<v Speaker 2>and dolphins in other words, if you don't know what

583
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:17.559
<v Speaker 2>cetaceans are for our listeners. But basically, what has happened

584
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:20.920
<v Speaker 2>that the Spanish government just kind of is now asking

585
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:24.960
<v Speaker 2>the public and experts in particular for input. They call

586
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:28.319
<v Speaker 2>it a consultation period, so they'd like to pass a law.

587
00:29:28.359 --> 00:29:31.599
<v Speaker 2>They're talking about what this law might look like. So

588
00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:33.720
<v Speaker 2>now they're going to experts and saying, hey, give us

589
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:36.359
<v Speaker 2>your input here so we can sculpt something that's appropriate

590
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:39.200
<v Speaker 2>for the animals. Because we're legislators, we don't know anything,

591
00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:41.640
<v Speaker 2>so like, experts, tell us what you think about this,

592
00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:45.000
<v Speaker 2>and of course the public as well, because the public

593
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:46.640
<v Speaker 2>are the ones that have to probably vote on this

594
00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:50.839
<v Speaker 2>if there's voting involved, or at least influencing their legislators.

595
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:55.400
<v Speaker 2>So basically the bottom line is that Spain has recognized

596
00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:58.200
<v Speaker 2>that great Apes probably deserves some higher level of protection

597
00:29:58.279 --> 00:30:02.319
<v Speaker 2>because of their higher level of of awareness of cognition

598
00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:06.440
<v Speaker 2>in general, and they are trying to pass a law

599
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:11.079
<v Speaker 2>that basically gives great apes some sort of very basic

600
00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:15.680
<v Speaker 2>human rights. Human rights. I mean, we're not talking about

601
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:19.319
<v Speaker 2>healthcare or something like that, or clean water necessarily, it's

602
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:24.240
<v Speaker 2>more along the lines with better protection that mostly stops

603
00:30:24.279 --> 00:30:29.640
<v Speaker 2>them from being exploited commercially and other items that conflict

604
00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:32.559
<v Speaker 2>with their dignity. Now, dignity is a pretty loose and

605
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:35.160
<v Speaker 2>squishy term to be used.

606
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:35.480
<v Speaker 4>In a law.

607
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:39.400
<v Speaker 2>I get, But I think this is a fantastic idea.

608
00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:42.319
<v Speaker 2>Fantastic idea because it seems that whenever I go to

609
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:44.559
<v Speaker 2>any bigfoot conference or I'm doing a talk or something

610
00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:49.119
<v Speaker 2>like that, it always comes up. It always comes up that,

611
00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:52.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, sasquatches are people and should be treated as such,

612
00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:55.839
<v Speaker 2>and like, they're clearly not people. They're not Homo sapiens,

613
00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:58.279
<v Speaker 2>homost sapiens, aren't covered in hair, they don't grow to

614
00:30:58.279 --> 00:31:02.839
<v Speaker 2>eight feet tall. They're clearly not almost apiens, right, And

615
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:05.519
<v Speaker 2>in fact, I even counter that, and I'm sure, much

616
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:08.039
<v Speaker 2>to the chagrin of some of the people listening and

617
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:11.480
<v Speaker 2>probably at the conferences as well, that I think it's

618
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:15.759
<v Speaker 2>disrespectful to treat sasquatches as humans because they're not humans

619
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:19.480
<v Speaker 2>and they have different needs than human beings, do you know.

620
00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:22.440
<v Speaker 2>And I always use my dog as an example. I

621
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:25.119
<v Speaker 2>love soci I love my dog, you know, second probably

622
00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:27.559
<v Speaker 2>only to my wife, right, But if I treat her

623
00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:29.640
<v Speaker 2>as a human, they could end up killing her because

624
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:32.119
<v Speaker 2>chocolate and onions and stuff like that kill dogs, you know,

625
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:34.079
<v Speaker 2>and she surely wants chocolate. I'm not going to give

626
00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:37.240
<v Speaker 2>it to her right, But anyway, Yeah, it's I think

627
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:41.359
<v Speaker 2>inappropriate to treat sasquatches as humans and any great but

628
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:44.279
<v Speaker 2>great apes. They are kind of humany, just like humans

629
00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:47.240
<v Speaker 2>are definitely kind of ap and I think that this

630
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:50.880
<v Speaker 2>law recognized, or this this proposal of a law recognizes that,

631
00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:55.160
<v Speaker 2>and it is a huge step forward for the protection

632
00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:58.440
<v Speaker 2>of apes and maybe cetaceans too, as I mentioned earlier.

633
00:31:58.759 --> 00:32:02.720
<v Speaker 2>But it also I'm generally for any law that increases

634
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:07.079
<v Speaker 2>human compassion for our friends here about the sasquatch. Oh,

635
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:09.119
<v Speaker 2>they're human, they're people, that kind of thing. I had

636
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:12.720
<v Speaker 2>a discussion years ago with a very very smart researcher

637
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:16.559
<v Speaker 2>and it was brought up that like, no, no, no, Cliff,

638
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:20.480
<v Speaker 2>people don't understand how great apes are, how fantastic, and

639
00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:22.880
<v Speaker 2>how how smart they are, and how aware they are,

640
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:25.160
<v Speaker 2>the fact that they mourn they're dead, the fact they

641
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:28.400
<v Speaker 2>feel compassion, they work together, they make They don't understand

642
00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:33.279
<v Speaker 2>how advanced apes are. So we should categorize or we

643
00:32:33.319 --> 00:32:36.559
<v Speaker 2>should talk about humans. I mean the sasquatches as if

644
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:39.079
<v Speaker 2>they're humans, because that's the only way that people are

645
00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:41.759
<v Speaker 2>going to respect them in such a way to protect

646
00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:45.960
<v Speaker 2>them and I still grapple with that. Do we actually

647
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:49.200
<v Speaker 2>change our language and behavior in order to accommodate the

648
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:53.720
<v Speaker 2>people who are just unaware, Like, do we drop our

649
00:32:54.079 --> 00:33:00.200
<v Speaker 2>actions and language, you know, to accommodate people who I've

650
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.759
<v Speaker 2>never bothered to learn about these things? And I get it,

651
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:06.480
<v Speaker 2>not everybody needs to know about how you know, chimpanzees

652
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:08.559
<v Speaker 2>mourn their dead or something like that. That's not a

653
00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:12.240
<v Speaker 2>very useful thing to know in our society day. I

654
00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:14.359
<v Speaker 2>get that there's only so much time of the day, right,

655
00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:16.640
<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, do I need to dumb

656
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:19.160
<v Speaker 2>it down? I don't think so. I don't think so.

657
00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:20.920
<v Speaker 2>I think we need to educate people to bring them

658
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:24.880
<v Speaker 2>up because you know, I get this a lot, actually

659
00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:26.599
<v Speaker 2>I get this a lot on the paranormal side of people.

660
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:29.279
<v Speaker 2>For some reason, you just treat these things as dumb

661
00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:34.240
<v Speaker 2>apes that were dumb apes or that term, and thinking

662
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:35.920
<v Speaker 2>who's the dumb ape?

663
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:36.160
<v Speaker 4>Now?

664
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:38.640
<v Speaker 2>It just shows I mean I don't want to throw

665
00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:40.759
<v Speaker 2>names around like that, but like who, like if you're

666
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:47.839
<v Speaker 2>unaware of what the magnificence of the other great apes

667
00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:49.960
<v Speaker 2>and how they think and what they feel and how

668
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:54.279
<v Speaker 2>they do, like, that's the problem is the problem is

669
00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:57.279
<v Speaker 2>from the people who don't understand apes. It's just it

670
00:33:57.480 --> 00:34:00.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of chaps my hide in a lot of ways.

671
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:02.839
<v Speaker 3>I totally agree. And you know, I run into that

672
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:06.160
<v Speaker 3>quite a bit with certain terms, and I always define

673
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:09.440
<v Speaker 3>terms whether I'm on a podcast or giving a lecture.

674
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:12.639
<v Speaker 3>But habituation is a great example, because it's a technical

675
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:16.920
<v Speaker 3>term that refers to the modification of behavior by an

676
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:20.719
<v Speaker 3>animal after repeated and prolonged exposure to the same stimulus.

677
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:22.920
<v Speaker 3>And I always define it. But then people go, oh,

678
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:27.559
<v Speaker 3>you shouldn't say that, because when squatchers hear habituation, they

679
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:31.079
<v Speaker 3>think about sasquatches stealing pancakes or knocking on the door

680
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:34.119
<v Speaker 3>asking for garlic because of the mythos. And I'm like, well,

681
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:36.840
<v Speaker 3>that's not my problem. It is not my problem that

682
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:40.239
<v Speaker 3>the term has been bastardized to that degree. Now I

683
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:42.119
<v Speaker 3>will define it in the technical term, but I am

684
00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:45.199
<v Speaker 3>not going to stop using the correct technical terms just

685
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:50.280
<v Speaker 3>because some portion of some subculture community has bastardized the

686
00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:52.519
<v Speaker 3>term where they're not aware of what it truly means.

687
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:55.639
<v Speaker 3>And so yeah, I'll do that very often because I

688
00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:58.639
<v Speaker 3>think it is a disc service to say, well, we'll

689
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:02.280
<v Speaker 3>change the nomin Clayton will change the language to accommodate

690
00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:07.280
<v Speaker 3>these people who just aren't aware of the technical definitions

691
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:09.239
<v Speaker 3>of these things or the true definitions of these things.

692
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:12.440
<v Speaker 3>And I just don't think that's right, because you wouldn't

693
00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:15.760
<v Speaker 3>want to deal with someone who cared about you, who said, well,

694
00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:17.519
<v Speaker 3>you know, I'll change the way I deal with Cliff.

695
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:20.320
<v Speaker 3>I won't be honest, and I won't use big words

696
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:22.519
<v Speaker 3>because he might not like them, Like, well, that person's

697
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:25.519
<v Speaker 3>not on your side, you know, And so like I

698
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:28.800
<v Speaker 3>am on the audience's side. If I'm in the audience,

699
00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:30.639
<v Speaker 3>I want the speaker to be on my side, and

700
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:34.800
<v Speaker 3>so like, no, I'm so staunchly against dumbing things down

701
00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:38.079
<v Speaker 3>for people, or assuming that it even needs to be

702
00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:40.760
<v Speaker 3>dumbed down for an audience when it's like, well, maybe

703
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:44.000
<v Speaker 3>one or two people will take issue, but don't punish

704
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:44.920
<v Speaker 3>everyone else for that.

705
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:47.039
<v Speaker 2>No, And you can tell that by reading your book.

706
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:49.320
<v Speaker 2>By the way, you didn't dumb down anything. I have

707
00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:51.239
<v Speaker 2>to look words up. It was cool. I enjoyed that,

708
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:54.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, yeah, very much. But anyway, back to this

709
00:35:55.079 --> 00:35:57.599
<v Speaker 2>article here and again we're going to tie it back

710
00:35:57.599 --> 00:35:59.480
<v Speaker 2>to Sasquatches, and we already did. I guess, but like

711
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:03.199
<v Speaker 2>basically saying we shouldn't be exploiting the apes, and the

712
00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:07.000
<v Speaker 2>best way to do that are is basically to stop

713
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:10.199
<v Speaker 2>like the captive breathing programs. I mean they're not talking

714
00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:15.679
<v Speaker 2>about necessarily, you know, the ones like the stuff. You know,

715
00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:18.880
<v Speaker 2>they do specifically mention zoos, but I think zoos definitely

716
00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:21.800
<v Speaker 2>have to hold a place in society with endangered animals.

717
00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:24.360
<v Speaker 2>And if I remember right, if I remember correctly, I

718
00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:27.639
<v Speaker 2>believe all the grade ape species at this moment are endangered,

719
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:30.320
<v Speaker 2>some critically so, like the Mountain grill. I think we're

720
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:32.599
<v Speaker 2>down to about three hundred individuals, give or take a

721
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:35.840
<v Speaker 2>dozen or two. That's pretty low, man, it's pretty low.

722
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:38.480
<v Speaker 2>But they're basically saying that, like these things should not

723
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:43.480
<v Speaker 2>be held in like shown to the public in some

724
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:44.960
<v Speaker 2>sort of exploitive way.

725
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:48.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, people making faces through the glass and slapping the

726
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:50.800
<v Speaker 4>glass and making monkey noises and going, oh, you know,

727
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:52.280
<v Speaker 4>that's not cool.

728
00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:56.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, I don't think we could just eliminate it outright.

729
00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:58.599
<v Speaker 3>Like I was just an animal Kingdom a couple of

730
00:36:58.599 --> 00:37:01.000
<v Speaker 3>weeks ago, and I spent the better part of the

731
00:37:01.039 --> 00:37:03.639
<v Speaker 3>day watching gorillas, you know, while they were active because

732
00:37:03.639 --> 00:37:05.960
<v Speaker 3>then it got kind of hot and humid and they

733
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:11.400
<v Speaker 3>got a bit lethargic. But given the animal trade worldwide

734
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:14.119
<v Speaker 3>and in North America, like of course, there are places

735
00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:17.719
<v Speaker 3>where private individuals have owned animals that are in unsafe

736
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:20.159
<v Speaker 3>conditions and they need to go somewhere, and so there

737
00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:23.800
<v Speaker 3>are sanctuaries. In fact, there was. It might still be open,

738
00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:25.719
<v Speaker 3>but as of this recording, I'm not sure. I'll have

739
00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:28.400
<v Speaker 3>to look and see, but there was a gorilla sanctuary

740
00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:32.199
<v Speaker 3>in North Georgia not far from Blue Ridge actually that

741
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:36.039
<v Speaker 3>house such animals. And there's a chimpanzee sanctuary. There's a

742
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:39.639
<v Speaker 3>great documentary series right now that's pretty wild that's produced

743
00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:41.840
<v Speaker 3>by the same guy who did Tiger King. So it's

744
00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:44.480
<v Speaker 3>along those same sort of like narrative lines called Chimp

745
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:48.519
<v Speaker 3>Crazy that I just finished. I would say it's probably

746
00:37:48.519 --> 00:37:52.719
<v Speaker 3>not for the faint of heart, so viewer discretion is advised.

747
00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:55.280
<v Speaker 3>But you know, it features a number of those things.

748
00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:57.679
<v Speaker 3>But I think some zoos or places that are open

749
00:37:57.719 --> 00:38:00.320
<v Speaker 3>to the public are probably good options for an animals

750
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:02.039
<v Speaker 3>like that who need to be rehomed.

751
00:38:02.599 --> 00:38:05.079
<v Speaker 4>There's a big space, like they crowd them into much.

752
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:07.800
<v Speaker 4>I wouldn't have a probably with a captive breeding program

753
00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:10.840
<v Speaker 4>or whatever, or a rescue place if if they you know,

754
00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:13.320
<v Speaker 4>had acres and acres, you know, but it would be

755
00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:15.800
<v Speaker 4>so expensive to fence it in. And I'll understand that.

756
00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:18.920
<v Speaker 4>But maybe, like the zoos, just get rid of some

757
00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:23.440
<v Speaker 4>of their exhibits and expand, like the primates or tigers whatever,

758
00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:26.400
<v Speaker 4>you know, the really critically endangered ones that need the

759
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:29.360
<v Speaker 4>you know, the variety of the genetics. I could see that,

760
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:31.360
<v Speaker 4>but it's to me, it's just a matter of space.

761
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:33.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's a big part of it. And I think

762
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:38.039
<v Speaker 3>that Gorilla Sanctuary in North Georgia was pretty large, but yeah,

763
00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:40.960
<v Speaker 3>having some access to the public. It's hard to say,

764
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:44.920
<v Speaker 3>because obviously I know how much I've enjoyed and benefited

765
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:48.599
<v Speaker 3>from watching those animals, whether it's gorillas or gibbons or

766
00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:50.920
<v Speaker 3>you know, a lot of the apecc in places, or

767
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:55.079
<v Speaker 3>orangutans in some places. So of course I understand that

768
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:58.800
<v Speaker 3>that probably drives a lot of compassion and maybe conservation issues.

769
00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:01.119
<v Speaker 3>But maybe for a smaller subset of people than the

770
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:03.239
<v Speaker 3>ones you describe, Bobbo, like people who just want to

771
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:05.639
<v Speaker 3>go and stare and bang the glass and get a reaction,

772
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:07.639
<v Speaker 3>you know, dumb kids and stuff.

773
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:10.719
<v Speaker 4>I'm not saying I haven't done it, but I'm just saying.

774
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:14.199
<v Speaker 3>But there's nothing like it though, especially in a place

775
00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:16.360
<v Speaker 3>where they can get close, you know, where they come

776
00:39:16.440 --> 00:39:18.440
<v Speaker 3>up to the glass and you're just, you know, a

777
00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:21.079
<v Speaker 3>couple of feet away from something like that. It's a

778
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:23.599
<v Speaker 3>really powerful thing to be that close to an animal

779
00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:25.280
<v Speaker 3>like that, and it changes you, you know, and it

780
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:28.119
<v Speaker 3>changes the way you read about those animals or when

781
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:31.360
<v Speaker 3>you watch documentaries because now you have this experiential almost

782
00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:35.639
<v Speaker 3>like participatory element because you've been that close, albeit through glass.

783
00:39:35.719 --> 00:39:40.599
<v Speaker 2>So I know it changed Melissa significantly. Actually, I don't

784
00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:42.280
<v Speaker 2>know if I've ever mentioned on the air. I probably have.

785
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:43.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm a big fan of Melissa, and I

786
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:47.079
<v Speaker 2>talk about her. But she was the nighttime janitor at

787
00:39:47.079 --> 00:39:50.840
<v Speaker 2>the Pittsburgh Zoo for a year or two before she

788
00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:53.440
<v Speaker 2>finally came out to be with me here in the

789
00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:56.760
<v Speaker 2>West Coast. And she would start at midnight, get off

790
00:39:56.760 --> 00:39:58.480
<v Speaker 2>at eight in the morning sort of stuff, and so

791
00:39:58.519 --> 00:40:00.599
<v Speaker 2>she had the run of the place doing her job

792
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:04.800
<v Speaker 2>and stuff. She's doing janitorial work, and if she finished early,

793
00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:07.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, she like had forty five minutes early. She

794
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:10.280
<v Speaker 2>finished all of her responsibilities early in the morning. What

795
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:12.880
<v Speaker 2>she would do is she would go in the grilla.

796
00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:15.679
<v Speaker 2>I can't say inside the grilla enclosure, that's not what

797
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:18.599
<v Speaker 2>she did. But the gorillas had a pretty large outside

798
00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:20.960
<v Speaker 2>enclosure and there was a troop of them out there,

799
00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:23.079
<v Speaker 2>and then there was like a you know, one of

800
00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:25.679
<v Speaker 2>these fake cave sort of things where you go inside

801
00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:27.599
<v Speaker 2>there and there's glass and you know, if you're lucky,

802
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:30.199
<v Speaker 2>maybe there's a grilla on the other side. She would

803
00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:33.159
<v Speaker 2>go in there almost every day that she was, at

804
00:40:33.239 --> 00:40:36.880
<v Speaker 2>least when she finished her responsibilities early. And there was

805
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:42.199
<v Speaker 2>one gorilla name Hope I believe her name was, who

806
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:44.920
<v Speaker 2>was kind of a newbie to the troop in a way,

807
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:47.639
<v Speaker 2>and the other troop members kind of bullied her and

808
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:50.320
<v Speaker 2>all that sort of stuff, and Hope would come in

809
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:54.920
<v Speaker 2>and like legitimately, Melissa would hang out with Hope for

810
00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:57.119
<v Speaker 2>like forty five minutes or an hour and they would

811
00:40:57.159 --> 00:41:00.320
<v Speaker 2>just hang out together on opposite sides of the glass.

812
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:02.559
<v Speaker 2>Like Melissa would sit down and Hope would come in

813
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:04.519
<v Speaker 2>and see her and come over and sit on the

814
00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:07.719
<v Speaker 2>other side of the glass, and Melissa just it was

815
00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:11.519
<v Speaker 2>such a powerful experience being right there face to face

816
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:15.000
<v Speaker 2>with that, and like, Hope would would do things like

817
00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:18.519
<v Speaker 2>she would point out wounds on her hand to Melissa

818
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:20.679
<v Speaker 2>that the other that the other gorillas had given her

819
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:24.239
<v Speaker 2>because they kind of bullied this particular animal Hope and

820
00:41:24.280 --> 00:41:26.760
<v Speaker 2>like and point out and they you know, and Melissa

821
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:29.679
<v Speaker 2>would talk. Melissa is very very compassionate. Obviously, she waves

822
00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:31.320
<v Speaker 2>the dogs, you know, when she's sad. We go out

823
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:32.639
<v Speaker 2>and would take a ride in the car and who

824
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:34.840
<v Speaker 2>waves the dogs? I do too, by the way, But

825
00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:39.559
<v Speaker 2>and she would she actually built a relationship with this

826
00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:43.039
<v Speaker 2>with this animal, you know, with this gorilla. Hope was

827
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:48.039
<v Speaker 2>later actually traded to the Dallas Zoo. Which is kind

828
00:41:48.039 --> 00:41:51.119
<v Speaker 2>of cool too because I did create Woolheater's conference a

829
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:54.039
<v Speaker 2>few years back down in Texas and Texas Pickbook Conference.

830
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:56.360
<v Speaker 2>We flew in and out of Dallas, and we we

831
00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:59.199
<v Speaker 2>we uh managed our flights so we could drop by

832
00:41:59.239 --> 00:42:02.639
<v Speaker 2>the Dallas Zoo for a couple hours before we caught

833
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:04.719
<v Speaker 2>our flight and Melissa got to see Hope again.

834
00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:05.840
<v Speaker 4>Oh wow.

835
00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:08.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, she cried like she she actually cried when she

836
00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:11.000
<v Speaker 2>saw her. It was such a moving experience for her.

837
00:42:11.480 --> 00:42:15.119
<v Speaker 2>Hope eventually had a baby, and Melissa was thrilled, of course,

838
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:17.800
<v Speaker 2>but unfortunately, I Hope got a some sort of bacterial

839
00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:21.239
<v Speaker 2>infection a few years later and actually died. Hope recognized

840
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:24.760
<v Speaker 2>her well, she was far enough away that they didn't

841
00:42:24.760 --> 00:42:28.039
<v Speaker 2>really come face to face, although we did talk to

842
00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:30.480
<v Speaker 2>one of the gorilla keepers while we were there and

843
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:33.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of explained and you know, and he said, oh,

844
00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:34.559
<v Speaker 2>if you go up there, you probably see her in

845
00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:36.800
<v Speaker 2>that and we did. We did, but still it was enough.

846
00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:38.360
<v Speaker 2>It was enough for Melissa to kind of have a

847
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:40.559
<v Speaker 2>little bit of closure in that relationship, which is nice.

848
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:42.639
<v Speaker 2>And to this day she can't talk about Hope without

849
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:46.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, like weeping essentially, so eventually started tearing up.

850
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:52.360
<v Speaker 2>So these these enclosures, these zoos situations absolutely do perform

851
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:58.840
<v Speaker 2>a legitimate educational and I don't know, they definitely supply

852
00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:03.599
<v Speaker 2>something for the public, you know, to appreciate the animals.

853
00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:07.559
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely one hundred and ten percent, I think, but certainly so.

854
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:10.079
<v Speaker 2>I'm not so sure I'd be against necessarily the zoo

855
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:13.960
<v Speaker 2>side of things. Although wild captures into zoos, I don't

856
00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:15.840
<v Speaker 2>think that's cool. I think there's enough animals in the

857
00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:18.400
<v Speaker 2>zoos now that we can probably do a breeding program.

858
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:21.480
<v Speaker 2>So they do mention that any There's a quote in

859
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:24.920
<v Speaker 2>here that they talk about the dignity of captive apes,

860
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:27.360
<v Speaker 2>and someone says, I find this very interesting. Is in

861
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:29.239
<v Speaker 2>my opinion that the mere fact that they are held

862
00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:31.760
<v Speaker 2>captive and on show to the public takes away their

863
00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:36.159
<v Speaker 2>dignity entirely. Yes and no, Yes and no. I think

864
00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:38.519
<v Speaker 2>that's probably a gray area, which is why they're probably

865
00:43:38.559 --> 00:43:42.519
<v Speaker 2>asking for input into this particular law. But as a

866
00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:46.239
<v Speaker 2>general concept, I am absolutely in agreement something like this

867
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:50.239
<v Speaker 2>needs to happen. It would be fantastic for not only

868
00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:53.599
<v Speaker 2>the apes, but if they extended to cetaceans, and again,

869
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:59.039
<v Speaker 2>any law that increases compassion amongst human beings, I'm one

870
00:43:59.079 --> 00:44:00.079
<v Speaker 2>hundred ten percent.

871
00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:03.719
<v Speaker 3>For Yeah, I found the word dignity a little I

872
00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:05.760
<v Speaker 3>don't want to say off putting, but I just didn't

873
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:06.320
<v Speaker 3>feel like it was.

874
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:08.320
<v Speaker 2>The proper word. That's squishy.

875
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:13.559
<v Speaker 3>Well, it's anthropomorphizing to some degree, but also to say like, well, obviously,

876
00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:15.840
<v Speaker 3>being on display to the public and having this many

877
00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:21.280
<v Speaker 3>humans roaming around and trying to excite them through various stimulus,

878
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:23.920
<v Speaker 3>it's probably stressful for the animals, and we want to

879
00:44:23.960 --> 00:44:27.199
<v Speaker 3>reduce the amount of unnecessary stress for these captive animals,

880
00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:29.400
<v Speaker 3>I think would make a much more compelling case than

881
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:35.119
<v Speaker 3>you know, that there's dignity that's being damaged versus how

882
00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:39.280
<v Speaker 3>much undue stress is being caused by these conditions for

883
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:41.960
<v Speaker 3>this animal. And certainly we would all say, well, we

884
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:45.400
<v Speaker 3>don't want to inflict undue stress or unnecessary stress.

885
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:48.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, and I did get to meet a

886
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:50.039
<v Speaker 2>lot of the zoo keepers and stuff when Melissa was

887
00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:51.880
<v Speaker 2>working at the Pittsburgh Zoo. We went to the zoo

888
00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:54.039
<v Speaker 2>a couple times when I was out there at least once,

889
00:44:55.159 --> 00:44:57.920
<v Speaker 2>and Melissa, you know, built relationships with some of these people,

890
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:00.639
<v Speaker 2>and you know, these people are not out to exploit

891
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:03.760
<v Speaker 2>the animals. These people are not out to take away

892
00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:07.079
<v Speaker 2>their dignity, and they do everything they can to make

893
00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:11.079
<v Speaker 2>their captivity, which is a sad fact, into the best

894
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:12.880
<v Speaker 2>experience for the animals. And a lot of these animals

895
00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:16.159
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't survive in the wild anyway. So yeah, there's some

896
00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:19.880
<v Speaker 2>gray area in this law because education, clearly, education needs

897
00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:22.199
<v Speaker 2>to happen. Just the fact that people say to me,

898
00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:26.239
<v Speaker 2>you treat sasquatches like dumb apes, well, clearly that one

899
00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:30.559
<v Speaker 2>statement alone screams that the American public and probably the

900
00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:33.360
<v Speaker 2>world public needs to be better educated about apes, so

901
00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:37.159
<v Speaker 2>there is some room for there's some gray area I

902
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:40.079
<v Speaker 2>think in what could be done here. So yeah, that's

903
00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:44.360
<v Speaker 2>my thoughts on it. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and

904
00:45:44.519 --> 00:45:47.199
<v Speaker 2>Beyond with Cliff and Bogo will be right back after

905
00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:56.199
<v Speaker 2>these messages. Well, let's talk to the next article then.

906
00:45:56.519 --> 00:46:01.119
<v Speaker 4>But nobos. Yeah, that's about how group cohesion is shaped

907
00:46:01.159 --> 00:46:02.639
<v Speaker 4>by outgroup threats.

908
00:46:03.039 --> 00:46:06.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, basically kind of like we're grouping together to deal

909
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:10.360
<v Speaker 2>with an outside threat of some sort, Right, that's basically

910
00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:12.000
<v Speaker 2>the way I read it, is that the way you read.

911
00:46:11.800 --> 00:46:15.159
<v Speaker 4>It, Yeah, they's kind of what the article talks about

912
00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:18.199
<v Speaker 4>is how the bonobos are so peaceful, or is the

913
00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:22.679
<v Speaker 4>pimpanzees are so violent, but they're so closely related and

914
00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:24.719
<v Speaker 4>we're kind of the same way. We're like the mix

915
00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:26.119
<v Speaker 4>of the chimp and the bonobo.

916
00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:28.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, in a lot of ways. Now, just just

917
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:31.239
<v Speaker 2>in case there's some people who don't know bonobos are

918
00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:34.480
<v Speaker 2>in fact a species of great ape. You would look

919
00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:36.239
<v Speaker 2>at one if you didn't know any better, you would say, oh,

920
00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:39.400
<v Speaker 2>that's chimpanzee. But they're not. There's a lot of subtle differences.

921
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:43.039
<v Speaker 2>They're smaller, they're more slender. There's facial differences as well.

922
00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:47.119
<v Speaker 2>Bonobos are actually the closest living relative I believe to humans.

923
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:51.119
<v Speaker 2>I think that bonobos are closer to us than even

924
00:46:51.159 --> 00:46:54.159
<v Speaker 2>chimpanzees are. I think chimps it kind of is like

925
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:57.159
<v Speaker 2>ninety eight point four percent of their DNA is the

926
00:46:57.159 --> 00:46:59.800
<v Speaker 2>same as ours, but bonobos is ninety eight point seven

927
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:03.320
<v Speaker 2>according to this article. And people are saying, oh, that

928
00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:05.880
<v Speaker 2>means we're almost well, relax, relax. I always like to

929
00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:09.039
<v Speaker 2>point out we share something like sixty percent of our

930
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:12.440
<v Speaker 2>DNA with earthworms, right, and now, all that tells us

931
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:16.199
<v Speaker 2>is that all life on the planet is related. We

932
00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:19.039
<v Speaker 2>all have some common ancestry back there, so everybody can

933
00:47:19.079 --> 00:47:21.320
<v Speaker 2>relax about that. Where I'm not saying that we're all apes,

934
00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:22.880
<v Speaker 2>although we are. I say that all the time we

935
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:26.079
<v Speaker 2>are apes. Deal with it. So, yeah, Venobo's a our

936
00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:30.159
<v Speaker 2>closest living relative in the animal kingdom anywhere else. Right,

937
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:35.679
<v Speaker 2>And what they're pointing out is that when other great

938
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:39.840
<v Speaker 2>apes have some sort of outside threat, what when most

939
00:47:39.880 --> 00:47:41.480
<v Speaker 2>the apes do is they get together and they kind

940
00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:45.079
<v Speaker 2>of bond together. Which is a really important subject for

941
00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:48.400
<v Speaker 2>right now, because you know that's what the politicians are doing, right,

942
00:47:48.639 --> 00:47:51.239
<v Speaker 2>they're pointing at everybody else and whichever side. And I'm

943
00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:53.039
<v Speaker 2>not going to be political about anything, but they're pointing

944
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:54.840
<v Speaker 2>to the other side and say, look at them so,

945
00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:58.199
<v Speaker 2>And what that's doing is making that their team bond together.

946
00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:01.239
<v Speaker 2>You know that that's exactly what they're doing. If you

947
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:03.199
<v Speaker 2>don't think we're apes, man, turn on one of the

948
00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:05.639
<v Speaker 2>news channels and take a look at what they're doing

949
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:09.920
<v Speaker 2>and how we as a species respond to it and

950
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.400
<v Speaker 2>what this is. But bonobos are a little bit different

951
00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:15.079
<v Speaker 2>in some ways. And I think that bonobos are there's

952
00:48:15.079 --> 00:48:16.679
<v Speaker 2>a lot of jokes about them and stuff, because they

953
00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:21.920
<v Speaker 2>actually use sexual behavior to de escalate conflict within their society.

954
00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:24.360
<v Speaker 2>You know that that sort of thing a.

955
00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:25.400
<v Speaker 4>Little with humans.

956
00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:28.800
<v Speaker 2>Hey you think about yeah, think about the sixties like movement,

957
00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:31.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, the peace love and all that sort of stuff.

958
00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:33.719
<v Speaker 2>That they were kind of doing the same thing, weren't they.

959
00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:36.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I thought that that key takeaway. You know, there's

960
00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:39.679
<v Speaker 3>a just like a single portion of the article that

961
00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:41.639
<v Speaker 3>maybe I can quote that to me was the key

962
00:48:41.719 --> 00:48:44.440
<v Speaker 3>takeaway was that the authors of this paper quote suggest

963
00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:46.559
<v Speaker 3>that our shared ancestor who roamed the earth five to

964
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:49.840
<v Speaker 3>six million years ago might have experienced some group based conflict,

965
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:54.000
<v Speaker 3>but as the intensity decreased in Benobo's evolutionary journey, so

966
00:48:54.119 --> 00:48:56.920
<v Speaker 3>too to the strict the effect. Contrast this with other

967
00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:00.639
<v Speaker 3>species gorillas, orangutans, champanzees, gibbons, and humans, all of whom

968
00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:03.400
<v Speaker 3>have been observed killing each other. But Nobos seem to

969
00:49:03.400 --> 00:49:05.639
<v Speaker 3>have found a way to break this vicious pattern. It's

970
00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:09.000
<v Speaker 3>not just because they don't commit lethal aggression today, but

971
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:12.159
<v Speaker 3>more importantly, they somehow stopped doing it millions of years ago.

972
00:49:12.519 --> 00:49:14.840
<v Speaker 3>So there is something like markedly different about this great

973
00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:15.880
<v Speaker 3>ape than the others.

974
00:49:16.159 --> 00:49:18.400
<v Speaker 4>Well, do you remember reading about recently they came out

975
00:49:18.440 --> 00:49:20.679
<v Speaker 4>the news study that said bonobos are not quite as

976
00:49:20.920 --> 00:49:23.760
<v Speaker 4>peace loving as they've been portrayed, and that they were

977
00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:26.159
<v Speaker 4>more aggressive towards each other than the chimpanzels, they just

978
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:27.239
<v Speaker 4>weren't killing each other.

979
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:29.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think you brought that up on one of

980
00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:32.000
<v Speaker 3>the other topical episodes. I have to go back through

981
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:33.559
<v Speaker 3>my notes and see which one it was, but yeah,

982
00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:35.239
<v Speaker 3>I wasn't aware of that until you had brought that

983
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:38.039
<v Speaker 3>one up previously. I think that was within the last

984
00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:39.519
<v Speaker 3>year or so that you brought that up.

985
00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:41.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, that'd be a good article for a future topical

986
00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:44.920
<v Speaker 2>discussion as well, so you should send that into us. Well,

987
00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:48.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, another interesting thing about this particular article and

988
00:49:48.920 --> 00:49:51.679
<v Speaker 2>the study in particular is that the way they did it,

989
00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:56.840
<v Speaker 2>like their I guess their experimental design, they played vocalizations

990
00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:00.280
<v Speaker 2>to see how the apes would would react, which is

991
00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:02.320
<v Speaker 2>pretty much what a lot of bigfooters are doing. You know,

992
00:50:02.679 --> 00:50:04.960
<v Speaker 2>they're they're going into an area where these apes are

993
00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:07.079
<v Speaker 2>living and doing their thing and you know, chilling and

994
00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:10.400
<v Speaker 2>being apes, and then they play vocalizations from you know,

995
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:14.119
<v Speaker 2>unknown vocalization so that these the bonobos would know that

996
00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:16.679
<v Speaker 2>they're not the same either same species or the same

997
00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:19.840
<v Speaker 2>same group of bonobos. And all it did is like

998
00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:21.760
<v Speaker 2>they started they kind of hung out a little bit more,

999
00:50:21.800 --> 00:50:23.559
<v Speaker 2>and they started being a little bit more social and stuff,

1000
00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:25.639
<v Speaker 2>as opposed to some of the other a species that

1001
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:27.760
<v Speaker 2>would kind of like look for them and try to

1002
00:50:27.800 --> 00:50:30.199
<v Speaker 2>deal with the intruders and all that. Jazz I thought

1003
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:32.119
<v Speaker 2>that was kind of interesting and I would love to

1004
00:50:32.119 --> 00:50:34.719
<v Speaker 2>see how a study, i mean, how impossible or next

1005
00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:37.800
<v Speaker 2>to impossible would that study be with sasquatches observing them

1006
00:50:37.880 --> 00:50:41.360
<v Speaker 2>when people are vocalizing nearby, that'd be amazing. But kind

1007
00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:44.400
<v Speaker 2>of have to wonder how Sasquatches deal with that and

1008
00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:49.440
<v Speaker 2>if vocalizing is a threat to a Sasquatch, because I

1009
00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:53.760
<v Speaker 2>always approach the idea of broadcasting vocalizations for Sasquatches as

1010
00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:55.719
<v Speaker 2>just kind of basically trying to trick them into thinking

1011
00:50:55.760 --> 00:50:57.920
<v Speaker 2>that another one's in the area and seeing how they

1012
00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:00.599
<v Speaker 2>react to it. But if I don't sound like the

1013
00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:03.719
<v Speaker 2>known members of their small little family group or whatever

1014
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:06.760
<v Speaker 2>term you want to use for their groupings, yeah maybe

1015
00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:10.480
<v Speaker 2>I am like a threat to them. But also, I've

1016
00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:12.400
<v Speaker 2>heard so many stories over the years and this has

1017
00:51:12.519 --> 00:51:15.239
<v Speaker 2>never once happened to me. So I got to wonder because,

1018
00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:17.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, as I've mentioned on the podcast lots of times,

1019
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:20.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to question all of these givens that I've

1020
00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:23.920
<v Speaker 2>been told through the years of Sasquatch behaviors and oh,

1021
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:27.199
<v Speaker 2>they like this, they do this, and all this other stuff. Right,

1022
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:29.440
<v Speaker 2>how do we know, Like, unless this happened to me

1023
00:51:29.480 --> 00:51:32.519
<v Speaker 2>and I've directly observed it, I'm kind of just not

1024
00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:34.440
<v Speaker 2>believing what other people say at this point, you know,

1025
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:36.880
<v Speaker 2>because I've been learning a lot about Sasquatch this last

1026
00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:40.400
<v Speaker 2>few years. But I've been told over the years that's

1027
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:44.639
<v Speaker 2>that sas if you vocalize, one will come to you.

1028
00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:46.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, they'll go, They'll go two miles just to

1029
00:51:46.760 --> 00:51:48.760
<v Speaker 2>get you. I don't know if that's true. It's never

1030
00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:51.199
<v Speaker 2>really happened to me. But maybe that's what they're doing.

1031
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:54.360
<v Speaker 2>If that is true to these particular researchers that have

1032
00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:57.079
<v Speaker 2>had that happen, Maybe that has happened, and maybe that's

1033
00:51:57.079 --> 00:51:58.719
<v Speaker 2>what they're doing. They're coming in to check out the

1034
00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:02.239
<v Speaker 2>threat or something like that. But if they're coming in alone,

1035
00:52:02.440 --> 00:52:04.320
<v Speaker 2>what does that say about their social grouping in that way?

1036
00:52:04.360 --> 00:52:07.199
<v Speaker 2>Are they like bonobos? Are they more like chimpanzees? I

1037
00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:10.679
<v Speaker 2>would way rather encounter in eight foot tall binobo than

1038
00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:12.199
<v Speaker 2>eight foot tall chimpanzee.

1039
00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:14.800
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, Well, it's impossible to tell because you don't

1040
00:52:14.840 --> 00:52:17.960
<v Speaker 3>have the certainty that there's one within earshot. And that's

1041
00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:20.760
<v Speaker 3>why the lack of response is like, no one knows

1042
00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:21.599
<v Speaker 3>how to interpret it.

1043
00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:24.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I think that if one did come at.

1044
00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:28.039
<v Speaker 3>You, oh gotcha. Even like the presupposition when people will say,

1045
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:30.760
<v Speaker 3>like if they're around, they'll come check you out, blah

1046
00:52:30.800 --> 00:52:33.280
<v Speaker 3>blah blah. Well, we don't know how many times you

1047
00:52:33.400 --> 00:52:36.280
<v Speaker 3>vocalized and there was one around that didn't come check

1048
00:52:36.320 --> 00:52:38.679
<v Speaker 3>you out, versus, you know, the more likely thing that

1049
00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:41.239
<v Speaker 3>there was just not one in earshot. And so all

1050
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:43.639
<v Speaker 3>these things are just impossible to tell. Versus if you

1051
00:52:43.719 --> 00:52:45.960
<v Speaker 3>knew you were within a couple of you know, there

1052
00:52:46.039 --> 00:52:48.320
<v Speaker 3>was one within the same acre or two as you,

1053
00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:51.519
<v Speaker 3>and you knew that it was there. Let's say that

1054
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:54.039
<v Speaker 3>you got to hit from like a thermal drone, and

1055
00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:56.000
<v Speaker 3>so you know you're within one hundred yards of it

1056
00:52:56.039 --> 00:52:58.440
<v Speaker 3>and you vocalize and it just doesn't move, then you

1057
00:52:58.440 --> 00:53:01.119
<v Speaker 3>could make a certain kind of case. Otherwise, like we

1058
00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:03.199
<v Speaker 3>just have no idea. So it does seem like in

1059
00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:06.159
<v Speaker 3>certain times like well, maybe it just happened to be

1060
00:53:06.199 --> 00:53:08.639
<v Speaker 3>close already and decided to check out a novel sound.

1061
00:53:08.679 --> 00:53:10.639
<v Speaker 3>Maybe it did think it was another member of its

1062
00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:15.000
<v Speaker 3>species and so it came to investigate. And if there's

1063
00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:17.960
<v Speaker 3>something aggressive that happens, people will say, oh, well, you know,

1064
00:53:18.079 --> 00:53:20.079
<v Speaker 3>it thought I was the alpha maol and so it

1065
00:53:20.199 --> 00:53:22.519
<v Speaker 3>come to run me off. But it's like, well, maybe

1066
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:24.480
<v Speaker 3>it came and saw that it was a human, and

1067
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:26.719
<v Speaker 3>it came to run off a human, you know, once

1068
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:29.239
<v Speaker 3>it investigated the sound, and instead of finding one of

1069
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:32.079
<v Speaker 3>its kind to which it might have responded, you know,

1070
00:53:32.519 --> 00:53:35.280
<v Speaker 3>neutrally or in a friendly way. It saw a human

1071
00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:38.320
<v Speaker 3>there and then decided to be aggressive. Who knows, There's

1072
00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:40.840
<v Speaker 3>just no way of knowing, Like they will always do

1073
00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:42.239
<v Speaker 3>this in this context.

1074
00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:45.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I very often comment that is a human thinking

1075
00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:49.760
<v Speaker 2>that is inflexible, not the behavior of sasquatches. Well, there

1076
00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:52.159
<v Speaker 2>you go, folks, another episode of Cliff and Bubble and

1077
00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:55.079
<v Speaker 2>Matt talking about cool articles that are tangentially if not

1078
00:53:55.159 --> 00:53:59.000
<v Speaker 2>directly involved or to relate it to sasquatches. We do

1079
00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:01.079
<v Speaker 2>enjoy these. People are doing a few more of these

1080
00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:03.360
<v Speaker 2>because they're kind of only we don't do them regularly

1081
00:54:03.400 --> 00:54:04.559
<v Speaker 2>like we do the Q and a's. We kind of

1082
00:54:04.599 --> 00:54:07.280
<v Speaker 2>do them semi occasionally. But maybe we need to do

1083
00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:09.559
<v Speaker 2>these a little bit more. I really enjoy these things, so.

1084
00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:13.039
<v Speaker 4>Good feedback on like are the most popular episodes, which

1085
00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:14.199
<v Speaker 4>blows my mind.

1086
00:54:14.679 --> 00:54:17.280
<v Speaker 2>It blows my mind that people listen at all. Honestly, Hey,

1087
00:54:17.360 --> 00:54:20.039
<v Speaker 2>j all right, Well with that, we've got some more

1088
00:54:20.039 --> 00:54:22.239
<v Speaker 2>work to do because we have a membership section that

1089
00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:24.559
<v Speaker 2>we do every single week. Bobo and Matt and I

1090
00:54:24.599 --> 00:54:26.960
<v Speaker 2>sit down. We do a regular episode which you just heard,

1091
00:54:27.280 --> 00:54:29.280
<v Speaker 2>and then we do a member We record a member

1092
00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:32.039
<v Speaker 2>episode afterwards, and we release that just for our Patreon

1093
00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:34.239
<v Speaker 2>members on Thursday. And of course if you want to

1094
00:54:34.280 --> 00:54:36.199
<v Speaker 2>be a member, there's some good things about it. You

1095
00:54:36.239 --> 00:54:39.360
<v Speaker 2>get to see pictures, and there's like like articles and

1096
00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:40.920
<v Speaker 2>stuff that we post. You know that if we talk

1097
00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:43.320
<v Speaker 2>about something, Matt pro puts it up on the Patreon

1098
00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:46.000
<v Speaker 2>a little bit extra content there. You get some behind

1099
00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:47.599
<v Speaker 2>the scenes stuff every once in a while, but you

1100
00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:52.159
<v Speaker 2>also get this episode, the one you just heard, totally

1101
00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:55.599
<v Speaker 2>free of commercials, every single week, totally free of commercials.

1102
00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:57.800
<v Speaker 2>And that is pretty cool, you know, because you never

1103
00:54:57.800 --> 00:54:59.360
<v Speaker 2>know what kind of commercials are going to be fed

1104
00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:01.960
<v Speaker 2>to you by whatever podcast network you're on. And also

1105
00:55:02.039 --> 00:55:04.920
<v Speaker 2>you get an extra hour of content every single week.

1106
00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:07.400
<v Speaker 2>If you can't get enough of Cliff and Bobo and match, well,

1107
00:55:07.480 --> 00:55:09.519
<v Speaker 2>there's more out there for you. Just become a member.

1108
00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:12.440
<v Speaker 2>Go to Bigfoot and Beyond podcast dot com and hit

1109
00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:15.280
<v Speaker 2>the membership button, or go to that link that Mappro

1110
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:17.880
<v Speaker 2>will put in the show notes below. Bobo take us

1111
00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:18.119
<v Speaker 2>out of.

1112
00:55:18.119 --> 00:55:20.360
<v Speaker 4>Here, all right, folks, thanks for joining us this week.

1113
00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:23.960
<v Speaker 4>We really appreciate you listening. Hit Like Hit Share and

1114
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:27.119
<v Speaker 4>all that good stuff. Give us a positive review, and

1115
00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:31.000
<v Speaker 4>until next week, y'all keep it squatchy.

1116
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:38.599
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.

1117
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:41.239
<v Speaker 2>If you liked what you heard, please rate and review

1118
00:55:41.320 --> 00:55:44.599
<v Speaker 2>us on iTunes, subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you

1119
00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:47.840
<v Speaker 2>get your podcasts, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram

1120
00:55:47.920 --> 00:55:51.480
<v Speaker 2>at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast. You can find us on

1121
00:55:51.519 --> 00:55:55.199
<v Speaker 2>Twitter at Bigfoot and Beyond that's an N in the middle,

1122
00:55:55.599 --> 00:55:58.639
<v Speaker 2>and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag

1123
00:55:58.840 --> 00:56:00.559
<v Speaker 2>Bigfoot and Beyond.