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True Murder with your host, 27 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:36.840 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 28 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:50.280 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski, for the 29 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:53.560 program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime 30 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.079 history and the authors that have written about them. This 31 00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:03.599 multifaceted probe of murder, offense, offenders, victims, and characteristics of 32 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:08.800 homicide in American society breaks new ground by examining issues 33 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:15.159 generally ignored or neglected among researchers. Topics include murders occurring 34 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:19.199 in the workplace and in schools, those perpetrated by gangs 35 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:25.759 and terrorists, those incited by bias, and intimate and intrafamiliar murders. 36 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:31.919 The book discusses sexual killers, serial and mass murderers, and suicide. 37 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:37.120 It also examined psychological and sociological theories on murder and violence, 38 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:40.400 as well as the increasing role the Internet plays in 39 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:45.879 these crimes. Case studies of actual murderers are included. The 40 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:49.759 book that we're featuring this evening is The Dynamics of Murder. 41 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:53.879 Kill or Be Killed with my special guest journalist and 42 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:57.840 author are Barry Flowers. Welcome back to the program, and 43 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:01.120 thank you for agreeing to this interview. Are A Berry Flowers. 44 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:03.879 It's my pleasure, Dan, I'm happy to be back. 45 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:07.800 Well, thanks very much. You're very busy man. Like we 46 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:13.120 were talking before, You've got a couple short historical short 47 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:17.039 story crime, true crime, and you have some fictional stuff, 48 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:19.560 and then you have this Dynamics and Murder. We'll talk 49 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:23.360 about the other projects that you have, but we've got 50 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:25.800 quite a bit to cover here and letting people know 51 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:30.240 what this book is about. Now. In the opening we 52 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:37.080 talked mentioned that what really this is is that there's 53 00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:43.759 issues generally ignored or neglected among researchers. Maybe you can 54 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:49.120 start off with this examination of this book, Dynamics and Murder, 55 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:55.400 with what you felt was generally ignored or neglected, and 56 00:03:55.719 --> 00:03:58.120 then I'll ask the inevitable question and you can answer 57 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:02.159 that question, why would that be? What? What was? Why 58 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:05.319 did that too? Well? 59 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:11.199 I think that most criminologists, most true crime writers in particular, 60 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:19.560 tend to focus more on crimes and specific murderers, in 61 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:30.000 particular serial killers, mass murderers, terrorists like these two brothers, 62 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:34.360 the Boston Marathon, charist attack, which is very important of 63 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:40.079 course in our society, but getting to the roots of murders, 64 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:49.560 the precursors the criminal and violent behavior, it's equally important 65 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:54.800 so that we have a better perspective on why these 66 00:04:54.920 --> 00:04:59.000 types of crimes continue to happen over and over again 67 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:00.000 in society. 68 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:08.160 Tea, Oh, say, go ahead, Well, I was going to 69 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:09.519 say that, I think. 70 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:17.319 That as a criminologist, I've often tried to focus my 71 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:25.000 criminology books on the factors that have to come together 72 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:31.240 to create homicidal people in the first place. So it's 73 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:37.279 just this relevant in the discussion on killers as to 74 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:48.240 their motivations and precursors, to their character and what we 75 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:53.720 as a society can learn from these characteristics and factors 76 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:59.279 that can help us to maybe better identify these killers 77 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:02.120 and deal with the month we had them in custody. 78 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:10.240 Now you've done this is a I think which maybe 79 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:13.199 I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I would 80 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:20.079 say that this is quite comprehensive. So, uh, you know, 81 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:24.279 and then you again are outlining that you've tried to 82 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:29.399 examine murder from every possible perspective, which you think that 83 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.879 really wasn't done by anyone else. That's obviously why why 84 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:37.800 you've done this is that what you're what you're doing 85 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:41.399 with this book is that this is just much more comprehensive. 86 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:48.040 You've got every aspect of murder, homicide, whether it be 87 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:56.160 suicide or again from every from kids and family, strangers, 88 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:02.120 and then and then motive sexual So is it this 89 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:06.759 book attempt at just being that much more comprehensive. 90 00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:12.480 Absolutely, I think that's an appropriate word to describe this book. Dan. 91 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:17.319 I wanted to write a book that did have a 92 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:24.319 multi layered approach to murder, including the offenders, victims, and 93 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:31.040 characteristics of homicide in general in this society. I think 94 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:36.199 what I've learned is that murder really comes in many, 95 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:43.439 many facets and is much more than just when we 96 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:49.759 hear about a murder here or there. It's we're talking 97 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:57.079 about serial murders, domestic murders, goup murders, mass murder, terrorists, 98 00:07:57.160 --> 00:08:03.439 related murders. And you've got female perpetrated murders, juvenile perpetrated murders, 99 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:10.759 and then of course men constitute our greatest group of killers. 100 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:16.199 But what's the vast majority of these murders have in common, Dan, 101 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:22.519 is the use of firearms, I'd say that's our biggest 102 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:26.240 issue where it concerns murders in this country and in 103 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:32.639 Canada and elsewhere to the proliferation of firearms is really 104 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:35.879 becoming a problem. I mean, it's been a problem, but 105 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:36.759 it's getting worse. 106 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:38.679 And that is the. 107 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:48.960 Key element of homicides these days. A close second factor 108 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:53.120 would be the influence of drugs, alcohol or both. That 109 00:08:54.039 --> 00:09:00.279 tends to be a very big factor in perhaps telling 110 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:08.399 people who are potentially homicidal to follow through on theirs. 111 00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:15.320 But I would say that what amazes me most during 112 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:21.080 my research and just my knowledge of homicides in general, 113 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:26.720 is how many killers actually believe they can murder someone 114 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:30.840 and get away with it. I mean, that's the that's 115 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:39.000 the strangest aspect of murder. That few people kill someone 116 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:41.720 with the idea that they're going to spend the rest 117 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:44.039 of their lives in prison or be on death row. 118 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:49.080 I mean, people honestly feel they can murder someone or 119 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:51.799 murder a group of people and still somehow slip through 120 00:09:51.799 --> 00:09:56.799 the net. Obviously, many of these must watch CSI or 121 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:02.039 Investigation Discovery. If they did, they realize that the authorities 122 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:05.440 today have so many means at their disposal. To collect 123 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:13.279 evidence and identify murder suspects, uh, such as DNA ballistics, bloodstains, fingerprints, 124 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:18.639 trace evidence that you're far more likely to be apprehended, tried, 125 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:24.039 and convicted than not. And so if people could look 126 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:27.039 at take it from the back end rather than the front, 127 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:31.320 and then maybe some of these people wouldn't commit their 128 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:36.600 crimes in the first place, murder. But unfortunately it doesn't 129 00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:40.759 quite work that way. Most people who commit murders and 130 00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:45.159 the prisons are overflowing with them. Convicted killers simply thought 131 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:49.279 they was prouder than everyone else, or they somehow believed 132 00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:53.159 in their minds that their actions somehow justify the means, 133 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:57.399 which is never the case when it comes to murder. 134 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:01.000 And uh, they tend to learned it the hard way. 135 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:06.320 Well, it's not just a mistake, you know, let's not 136 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:12.480 characterize it as just some simple, uh mistake, misstep. You know, 137 00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:18.480 murder is a huge step for anyone. And so and 138 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:20.840 you talked about it, Well, if they knew that they could, 139 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:22.399 they would get caught. But I think part of the 140 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:25.399 phenomena of a lot of the killers, and you've examined, 141 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:30.679 you know, the sex slave murders, those killers of the legos. 142 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:35.799 You have studied the worst, some of the worst murderers 143 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:38.840 and the worst murders. Yeah, and you realize a lot 144 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:45.159 of this is is maybe just a just another aspect 145 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:48.840 of these killers is their incredible ego that they think 146 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:52.000 they are superior and hence that that they and a 147 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:55.799 lot of it is more out in the justification for 148 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:58.320 murder that these people were in very good anyway, or 149 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:00.360 I was doing them a favor, or they were just 150 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:05.840 the trash or well, a lot of killers that that's. 151 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:09.679 True, Dan. But the thing is, just about every killer 152 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:15.159 that's on death road today, they tend to find if 153 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:17.360 they've been there a long time, and usually they are 154 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:20.919 because of the pills process. But many of them have 155 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:26.519 to be dragged crying and screaming to the execution chamber 156 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:30.200 because they're so afraid to die. They don't want to 157 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:36.879 experience what they dealt out on others. So I think 158 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:42.159 that even for serial killers, they still don't want to 159 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:48.759 get caught. Just you know, these take these Boston Marathon 160 00:12:48.919 --> 00:12:54.440 Brothers killers, they certainly didn't want to get caught, even 161 00:12:54.480 --> 00:13:00.559 though they knew they'd done a horrible, horrible things. Jody 162 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:04.720 Areas didn't want to get caught. I mean right now, 163 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:09.080 she's of course, I'm sure your listeners are familiar with 164 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:14.519 Jody in her case, been dominating the news lately, and 165 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:18.799 she's of course been convicted and is now hoping that 166 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:24.039 she can avoid the same faith that she dealt her 167 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:32.159 form of her late boyfriends. So they just these killers. 168 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:37.639 They have their various motivations, mind you, everything from prophet 169 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:43.919 to hatred, to revenge, jealousy, collaborating with another killer, and 170 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:47.080 sexual motivation, which is often the case of serial killers. 171 00:13:48.039 --> 00:13:51.639 But they never really looked at the big picture. I mean, 172 00:13:51.720 --> 00:14:03.279 I've been contact with or written about numerous murderers in 173 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:08.240 prison today that now in retrospect, you know, they regret it. 174 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:10.440 They you know, wish they'd done this, which they'd done that. 175 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:17.240 But this is always after the fact, not before. So 176 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:22.039 it's obviously not just easy for someone who's spent on 177 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:26.039 killing someone to think about the consequences of their actions 178 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:30.840 for themselves. But if they did just a little bit more, 179 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:35.360 it could make a difference in what happened thereafter for them, 180 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:36.759 and they're victims. 181 00:14:38.919 --> 00:14:42.919 Well, it's it's like the it's very much like the 182 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:48.159 pedophile that is arrested after some sort of leude and 183 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:54.080 criminal behavior involving children are young people and then decides 184 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:57.360 that they don't want to go back to prison, But 185 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:00.399 that doesn't mean that they aren't still a pet phile, 186 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:04.720 so they turn into a child killer. So the thing 187 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:08.159 is is that you know, you could have that you 188 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:10.600 could have the same sort of thing as well, is 189 00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:16.399 that people would certainly there are there are certainly people 190 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:18.799 who are I don't know, not born to kill, but 191 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:23.919 are destined to kill, and people that would certainly kill irregardless. 192 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.279 I mean a lot of a lot of the books 193 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:30.440 that have examined on this program have been about killers. 194 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.360 That really why it's sort of interest is because it 195 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:39.240 is such extreme behavior. You know, the Arthur Shawcrosses, the 196 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:42.600 Edmund Kemper's, some of the people that keep the sex 197 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:45.799 slaves and the dungeons and the torture chambers. Some of 198 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:49.240 these people are beyond reproach. But again, in a comprehensive 199 00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:53.360 study of murder, there are varying degrees, aren't there. 200 00:15:54.039 --> 00:16:00.440 Yes, absolutely, uh, certainly there are some psychopaths out who 201 00:16:01.879 --> 00:16:05.039 derive pleasure out of what they're doing, and you know, 202 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:09.919 they are motivated to keep doing it. They you know, 203 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:15.879 are they feed on their own perverse thrills to do 204 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:22.840 these types of acts of murder and torture. So there 205 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:28.080 are definitely some killers who are lost causes no matter what. 206 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:35.720 But even they still, if they had their own way, 207 00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:41.360 they would continue to kill, you know, indefinitely. I mean, 208 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:44.360 they don't really want to be locked up in prison 209 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:48.440 for the rest of their lives. And certainly most of 210 00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:52.840 them do not want to die. I want to be executed, 211 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:57.200 which is the irony of it. And that they're willing 212 00:16:57.320 --> 00:17:01.000 to kill, and often in the most inter of ways, 213 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:05.200 and yet they still do not want to meet the 214 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:12.799 same fate atime. So one of the things I came 215 00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:15.680 up with in the this study of the dynamics of murder, 216 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:19.559 kill or be killed is that the Internet is beginning 217 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:24.759 to play a more prominent role than homicidal behavior, which 218 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:31.119 is natural. I mean, it's a natural evolution considering a 219 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:34.119 strong roles in all aspects of society. 220 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:39.240 Now, so the anti So do you mean, what do 221 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:41.759 you mean by intimate? So tell us tell our audience 222 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:43.920 what you mean by intimate? And why do you think 223 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:45.240 that's just a natural. 224 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:56.799 Internet? I'm sorry, the Internet? Okay, worldwide Web online? Uh, well, 225 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:00.920 I said, it's it's a natural progression because the Internet 226 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:05.240 is a big part of our society now social media 227 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:14.400 and so killers have also caught on just as non 228 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:19.960 killers have to the online world. So as a result, 229 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:25.839 you have killers who are talking victims the same way 230 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:30.000 that they would outside the Internet. A good example is 231 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:34.880 the Long Island serial killer, which I think some of 232 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:36.200 your listeners may be familiar with. 233 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:36.920 This is a. 234 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:43.240 Killer that's been killing prostitutes in the New York Long 235 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:48.799 Islands for a few years now, and at least several 236 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:52.839 of the prostitutes that have been murdered by this so 237 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:58.279 far unknown killer advertised their services on craigs List. So 238 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:03.799 that you know one instant of how the Internet can 239 00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:10.599 proved to be something that could be very dangerous for 240 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:15.000 people with there wanted for the wrong reasons, or there 241 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.599 too gullible for predators. 242 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:25.880 Yes, I agree with you too. I agree with you. 243 00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:30.000 There's two cases in Canada where one was alured his 244 00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:33.799 victim under the pretense that he was a woman to 245 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:37.279 a garage and film the murder. That was in Edmonton, 246 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:42.160 and then, of course the Luca magnota case in Montreal 247 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:46.720 where he created an online presence through social media and 248 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:51.599 Facebook for years creating his own sort of image and 249 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:57.720 then killing human being and define and defiling the body 250 00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:02.480 on video and posting that video for everyone to step. 251 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:06.400 Into the world of power, loyalty and luck. 252 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.039 I'm going to make him an offer you can't refuse. 253 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:13.160 With family, cannolis and spins mean everything. 254 00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:15.920 Now you want to get mixed up in the family business, 255 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:20.000 Introducing the Godfather at Champa Casino dot com. 256 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:23.880 Test your luck in the shadowy world at the Godfather slot. 257 00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:26.880 Someday I will call upon you to do a service 258 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:27.160 for me. 259 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:30.079 Play the Godfather now at Champacasino dot com. 260 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:31.079 Welcome to the. 261 00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:33.279 Family vdW group. No purchase necessary. 262 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:34.279 I believe we're privited by loss. 263 00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:36.200 He terms and conditions eighteen less the watch. 264 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:42.000 And then so Yes, the Internet's very, very important for 265 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:44.720 a lot of the narcissistic killers. Some of the killers 266 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:47.000 from the seventies and the eighties would have loved the 267 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:51.160 Internet right now with all the the ability to communicate 268 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:52.519 with people, wouldn't they. 269 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.480 Yes, absolutely, and Dan it makes it that much more 270 00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:01.680 difficult for the authorities to track them down using anonymous 271 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:04.839 chat rooms and that sort of thing on the Internet. 272 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:14.519 So certainly some of these brutal killers from the past sixties, seventies, 273 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:20.079 eighties would love to nineties be transported in time as 274 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:22.799 they could, where they have a much wider range of 275 00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:30.359 potential victims and an easier way to escape detection. But 276 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:32.640 I'd like to talk a little bit about Jody Areas 277 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:38.799 if I could, with her case in the spotlight. She's 278 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:44.680 a good example of the female killer that I studied 279 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:51.599 in the Dynamics of Murder. She most females who kill 280 00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:59.160 for issues related to love, jealousy, hatred, which are often intertwined, 281 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:08.599 and that's exactly the situation with Jody. Even her murder 282 00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:13.799 was certainly over the top, where she stabbed this guy 283 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:17.519 twenty something times and then shot him as well. 284 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:18.039 It was. 285 00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:25.839 Definitely a brutal personal attack, and she's now hoping that 286 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:32.680 she can have her life spared, most likely to spend 287 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:35.599 the rest of it in prison. When I think of 288 00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:39.039 Jody Arius and her attempts to lessen her own guilt 289 00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:42.720 while begging for her life the same time, I'm reminded 290 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.599 of this great movie I watched once called I Want 291 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.519 to Live. I don't know if you saw that one 292 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:52.839 or not, but as Susan Hayward, who won an Academy 293 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:57.039 Award as a woman sentenced to death for murder. She 294 00:22:57.200 --> 00:22:59.680 claims she was innocent to the very end, but eventually 295 00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:03.799 she sent to the gas chamber. So in Jody's case, 296 00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:06.640 she may or may not suffer the same fate. But 297 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:12.039 she's a great example of how jealous rage can accomplish 298 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:15.640 your goal of killing someone, but at what price to 299 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:19.559 your own life and times? And she's de chroit, you know, 300 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:24.880 she's the family members of her victim, they're suffering, her 301 00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:33.880 own family suffering. So it pains me to hear about 302 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:38.799 these types of cases where people do things in the 303 00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:44.240 name of love for hate. I'm an intimate murder and 304 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:50.200 then the consequences are there for everyone to see in 305 00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:51.240 a case like hers. 306 00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:59.240 Now, given you've just done this amazingly comprehensive study and 307 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:04.119 examination of murder from all facets and aspects and perspectives, 308 00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:07.880 could you have predicted with what you know right now 309 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:12.400 about Jody Arius's background, could you have predicted any of this? 310 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:16.359 Could you have predicted a possibility of such behavior as 311 00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:18.599 we're seeing her convicted of? 312 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:26.720 Absolutely dan As a matter of fact, another true crime 313 00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:31.160 short that I've written, the pick Axe Killers just came 314 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:35.599 out recently. It had another version of Jody Arias thirty 315 00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:41.599 years ago named Carla Fay Tucker. Carl La Faye was 316 00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:46.519 while bringing on drugs and alcohol. She and her boyfriend 317 00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:50.440 broke into an apartment of an acquaintance in Houston, Texas, 318 00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:55.519 and they used the pick axe to bludgeon him and 319 00:24:55.720 --> 00:25:01.000 his female companion. At the time, Carler bragged that using 320 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:03.400 the pick axe actually gave her a sexual thrill. 321 00:25:04.839 --> 00:25:05.119 And so. 322 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:12.160 What goes around comes around, unfortunately, and just about every 323 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:19.400 murder case that we have in this year twenty thirteen 324 00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:23.799 is simply a repeat of something that's happened in earlier generations. 325 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:28.440 In the case of counter Faith, she was convicted and 326 00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:33.799 sentenced to death, but her it took a while, of course, 327 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:37.359 for her sentence to be carried out. In the meantime, 328 00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:40.880 she became a born again Christian and the death penalty 329 00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:44.000 itself took center stage, and this country and around the 330 00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:50.039 world actually is opponents and supporters clashed over what should happened. 331 00:25:51.960 --> 00:26:00.480 But similar to Jody Arias, Carl the faith she hers 332 00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:10.160 was very violent, wicked type of homicidal action on her part, 333 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:17.680 and she turned her life around in prison, but not 334 00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:23.000 before she'd already done the deed. She eventually was executed, 335 00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:30.279 even though she had expressed regrets, just as Jody has 336 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:33.839 to some degree. Jody has yet to really own up, 337 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:40.640 in my opinion, to her crime, but she's still relatively 338 00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:44.119 fresh from having done it. If she's also on death 339 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:46.799 flow or in prison for the rest of her life, 340 00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:49.920 then after she's been there for a while, she may 341 00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:53.000 well come to show more remorse for what she did. 342 00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:57.559 But again it's still after the fact, And so that's 343 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:05.480 the essence of homicidal behavior. Once you're captured and in 344 00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:12.160 prison for a while, just about every murderer tends to 345 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:16.599 reflect and you know, have some second thoughts of what happened. 346 00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:21.359 But the key in this society, Dan is to try 347 00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:27.279 to find a way to get to potential murderers, whatever 348 00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:31.240 their issues, to try to reach Dann at a stage 349 00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:37.240 before they take that fatal turn where there's no turning back. 350 00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:41.720 Well, that's much easier said than done, isn't it. 351 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:45.799 So in this that is absolutely true. 352 00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:53.920 Tell us some specific because you've written this book, you 353 00:27:54.119 --> 00:27:56.920 have to have come to some conclusions. You've seen the 354 00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:01.720 model that hasn't been working, that well, obviously, what what 355 00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:04.839 do you think as a model, what what do you suggest? 356 00:28:05.559 --> 00:28:13.559 What need to have more a people professionals talking in 357 00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:16.440 the schools. We really have to start at the grade 358 00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:24.279 school level because the children are children become adult killers, 359 00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:28.920 some become child killers. But it's at that stage where 360 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:34.000 a lot of children who become killers in the future 361 00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:42.079 are showing temperament, mental problems, problems with other problems with behavior, 362 00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:49.279 showing little respect for authority or even their parents. Uh. 363 00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:54.960 Some kids are bullies, for example, when they're young, and 364 00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:59.039 that can play a factor both ways. It can cause 365 00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:02.400 that bully to ultimately take that to a greater level 366 00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:05.240 the older as a person gets or the person that 367 00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:09.519 being bullied can just have this rage building up inside 368 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:15.079 him or her and then end up becoming killers like 369 00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:23.200 the Columbine youths who unloaded their rage there. So that 370 00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:26.480 would be one thing I would say is that we 371 00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:34.799 need to have more people trying to talk to youths 372 00:29:35.240 --> 00:29:40.920 in grade schools and high school as well and try 373 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:44.680 to see where they're coming from. See where I mean. 374 00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:48.440 I realized this would be a huge undertaking in society 375 00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:54.400 when you know schools are often hard pressed for funds 376 00:29:54.720 --> 00:30:02.880 and society itself hugely reluctant to give taxpayer dollars to 377 00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:06.519 much of anything that if they can avoid it. But 378 00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:11.960 this is one where I think if we could give 379 00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:16.400 all children more counseling, more getting a better perspective on 380 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:21.160 how they view life, how they view themselves, how they 381 00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:31.039 view committing crimes, harming animals, that sort of thing, anything 382 00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:37.039 that if we can have a better perspective on how 383 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:39.359 they view the world around them, I think we could 384 00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:43.559 probably do a better job of preventing some of this 385 00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:47.599 behavior by trying to steer them in the right direction. 386 00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:52.279 A lot of chillers walk with real killers were also 387 00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:56.240 crew to animals when they were young. But a lot 388 00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:59.440 of times this is parents may even know this, but 389 00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:03.319 they I dismissed it as you know, just to temper 390 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:04.839 cantm with something, no big deal. 391 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:12.319 Well you know that aloneness, you know, because there has 392 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:17.480 some controversy, whether you know, the lighting fires, wetting the beds, 393 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.920 killing animals, having no remorse over animals, killing of them. 394 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:25.880 You know, I grew up just like a regular guy, 395 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.160 I really did. But there was guys. There was people 396 00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:32.200 around me. Not every person, but there were some certain 397 00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:35.920 people around me. That were very much cruel to animals 398 00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:39.799 and turned out fine, you know, and I happened to 399 00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:43.279 no matter of factly. But I think the thing is 400 00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:48.440 is that what you're talking about is idealistic, not so realistic, 401 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:52.000