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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week,
Speaker 7: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 7: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 3: Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski, for the
Speaker 3: program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime
Speaker 3: history and the authors that have written about them. This
Speaker 3: multifaceted probe of murder, offense, offenders, victims, and characteristics of
Speaker 3: homicide in American society breaks new ground by examining issues
Speaker 3: generally ignored or neglected among researchers. Topics include murders occurring
Speaker 3: in the workplace and in schools, those perpetrated by gangs
Speaker 3: and terrorists, those incited by bias, and intimate and intrafamiliar murders.
Speaker 3: The book discusses sexual killers, serial and mass murderers, and suicide.
Speaker 3: It also examined psychological and sociological theories on murder and violence,
Speaker 3: as well as the increasing role the Internet plays in
Speaker 3: these crimes. Case studies of actual murderers are included. The
Speaker 3: book that we're featuring this evening is The Dynamics of Murder.
Speaker 3: Kill or Be Killed with my special guest journalist and
Speaker 3: author are Barry Flowers. Welcome back to the program, and
Speaker 3: thank you for agreeing to this interview. Are A Berry Flowers.
Speaker 5: It's my pleasure, Dan, I'm happy to be back.
Speaker 3: Well, thanks very much. You're very busy man. Like we
Speaker 3: were talking before, You've got a couple short historical short
Speaker 3: story crime, true crime, and you have some fictional stuff,
Speaker 3: and then you have this Dynamics and Murder. We'll talk
Speaker 3: about the other projects that you have, but we've got
Speaker 3: quite a bit to cover here and letting people know
Speaker 3: what this book is about. Now. In the opening we
Speaker 3: talked mentioned that what really this is is that there's
Speaker 3: issues generally ignored or neglected among researchers. Maybe you can
Speaker 3: start off with this examination of this book, Dynamics and Murder,
Speaker 3: with what you felt was generally ignored or neglected, and
Speaker 3: then I'll ask the inevitable question and you can answer
Speaker 3: that question, why would that be? What? What was? Why
Speaker 3: did that too? Well?
Speaker 5: I think that most criminologists, most true crime writers in particular,
Speaker 5: tend to focus more on crimes and specific murderers, in
Speaker 5: particular serial killers, mass murderers, terrorists like these two brothers,
Speaker 5: the Boston Marathon, charist attack, which is very important of
Speaker 5: course in our society, but getting to the roots of murders,
Speaker 5: the precursors the criminal and violent behavior, it's equally important
Speaker 5: so that we have a better perspective on why these
Speaker 5: types of crimes continue to happen over and over again
Speaker 5: in society.
Speaker 3: Tea, Oh, say, go ahead, Well, I was going to
Speaker 3: say that, I think.
Speaker 5: That as a criminologist, I've often tried to focus my
Speaker 5: criminology books on the factors that have to come together
Speaker 5: to create homicidal people in the first place. So it's
Speaker 5: just this relevant in the discussion on killers as to
Speaker 5: their motivations and precursors, to their character and what we
Speaker 5: as a society can learn from these characteristics and factors
Speaker 5: that can help us to maybe better identify these killers
Speaker 5: and deal with the month we had them in custody.
Speaker 3: Now you've done this is a I think which maybe
Speaker 3: I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I would
Speaker 3: say that this is quite comprehensive. So, uh, you know,
Speaker 3: and then you again are outlining that you've tried to
Speaker 3: examine murder from every possible perspective, which you think that
Speaker 3: really wasn't done by anyone else. That's obviously why why
Speaker 3: you've done this is that what you're what you're doing
Speaker 3: with this book is that this is just much more comprehensive.
Speaker 3: You've got every aspect of murder, homicide, whether it be
Speaker 3: suicide or again from every from kids and family, strangers,
Speaker 3: and then and then motive sexual So is it this
Speaker 3: book attempt at just being that much more comprehensive.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I think that's an appropriate word to describe this book. Dan.
Speaker 5: I wanted to write a book that did have a
Speaker 5: multi layered approach to murder, including the offenders, victims, and
Speaker 5: characteristics of homicide in general in this society. I think
Speaker 5: what I've learned is that murder really comes in many,
Speaker 5: many facets and is much more than just when we
Speaker 5: hear about a murder here or there. It's we're talking
Speaker 5: about serial murders, domestic murders, goup murders, mass murder, terrorists,
Speaker 5: related murders. And you've got female perpetrated murders, juvenile perpetrated murders,
Speaker 5: and then of course men constitute our greatest group of killers.
Speaker 5: But what's the vast majority of these murders have in common, Dan,
Speaker 5: is the use of firearms, I'd say that's our biggest
Speaker 5: issue where it concerns murders in this country and in
Speaker 5: Canada and elsewhere to the proliferation of firearms is really
Speaker 5: becoming a problem. I mean, it's been a problem, but
Speaker 5: it's getting worse.
Speaker 3: And that is the.
Speaker 5: Key element of homicides these days. A close second factor
Speaker 5: would be the influence of drugs, alcohol or both. That
Speaker 5: tends to be a very big factor in perhaps telling
Speaker 5: people who are potentially homicidal to follow through on theirs.
Speaker 5: But I would say that what amazes me most during
Speaker 5: my research and just my knowledge of homicides in general,
Speaker 5: is how many killers actually believe they can murder someone
Speaker 5: and get away with it. I mean, that's the that's
Speaker 5: the strangest aspect of murder. That few people kill someone
Speaker 5: with the idea that they're going to spend the rest
Speaker 5: of their lives in prison or be on death row.
Speaker 5: I mean, people honestly feel they can murder someone or
Speaker 5: murder a group of people and still somehow slip through
Speaker 5: the net. Obviously, many of these must watch CSI or
Speaker 5: Investigation Discovery. If they did, they realize that the authorities
Speaker 5: today have so many means at their disposal. To collect
Speaker 5: evidence and identify murder suspects, uh, such as DNA ballistics, bloodstains, fingerprints,
Speaker 5: trace evidence that you're far more likely to be apprehended, tried,
Speaker 5: and convicted than not. And so if people could look
Speaker 5: at take it from the back end rather than the front,
Speaker 5: and then maybe some of these people wouldn't commit their
Speaker 5: crimes in the first place, murder. But unfortunately it doesn't
Speaker 5: quite work that way. Most people who commit murders and
Speaker 5: the prisons are overflowing with them. Convicted killers simply thought
Speaker 5: they was prouder than everyone else, or they somehow believed
Speaker 5: in their minds that their actions somehow justify the means,
Speaker 5: which is never the case when it comes to murder.
Speaker 5: And uh, they tend to learned it the hard way.
Speaker 3: Well, it's not just a mistake, you know, let's not
Speaker 3: characterize it as just some simple, uh mistake, misstep. You know,
Speaker 3: murder is a huge step for anyone. And so and
Speaker 3: you talked about it, Well, if they knew that they could,
Speaker 3: they would get caught. But I think part of the
Speaker 3: phenomena of a lot of the killers, and you've examined,
Speaker 3: you know, the sex slave murders, those killers of the legos.
Speaker 3: You have studied the worst, some of the worst murderers
Speaker 3: and the worst murders. Yeah, and you realize a lot
Speaker 3: of this is is maybe just a just another aspect
Speaker 3: of these killers is their incredible ego that they think
Speaker 3: they are superior and hence that that they and a
Speaker 3: lot of it is more out in the justification for
Speaker 3: murder that these people were in very good anyway, or
Speaker 3: I was doing them a favor, or they were just
Speaker 3: the trash or well, a lot of killers that that's.
Speaker 5: True, Dan. But the thing is, just about every killer
Speaker 5: that's on death road today, they tend to find if
Speaker 5: they've been there a long time, and usually they are
Speaker 5: because of the pills process. But many of them have
Speaker 5: to be dragged crying and screaming to the execution chamber
Speaker 5: because they're so afraid to die. They don't want to
Speaker 5: experience what they dealt out on others. So I think
Speaker 5: that even for serial killers, they still don't want to
Speaker 5: get caught. Just you know, these take these Boston Marathon
Speaker 5: Brothers killers, they certainly didn't want to get caught, even
Speaker 5: though they knew they'd done a horrible, horrible things. Jody
Speaker 5: Areas didn't want to get caught. I mean right now,
Speaker 5: she's of course, I'm sure your listeners are familiar with
Speaker 5: Jody in her case, been dominating the news lately, and
Speaker 5: she's of course been convicted and is now hoping that
Speaker 5: she can avoid the same faith that she dealt her
Speaker 5: form of her late boyfriends. So they just these killers.
Speaker 5: They have their various motivations, mind you, everything from prophet
Speaker 5: to hatred, to revenge, jealousy, collaborating with another killer, and
Speaker 5: sexual motivation, which is often the case of serial killers.
Speaker 5: But they never really looked at the big picture. I mean,
Speaker 5: I've been contact with or written about numerous murderers in
Speaker 5: prison today that now in retrospect, you know, they regret it.
Speaker 5: They you know, wish they'd done this, which they'd done that.
Speaker 5: But this is always after the fact, not before. So
Speaker 5: it's obviously not just easy for someone who's spent on
Speaker 5: killing someone to think about the consequences of their actions
Speaker 5: for themselves. But if they did just a little bit more,
Speaker 5: it could make a difference in what happened thereafter for them,
Speaker 5: and they're victims.
Speaker 3: Well, it's it's like the it's very much like the
Speaker 3: pedophile that is arrested after some sort of leude and
Speaker 3: criminal behavior involving children are young people and then decides
Speaker 3: that they don't want to go back to prison, But
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that they aren't still a pet phile,
Speaker 3: so they turn into a child killer. So the thing
Speaker 3: is is that you know, you could have that you
Speaker 3: could have the same sort of thing as well, is
Speaker 3: that people would certainly there are there are certainly people
Speaker 3: who are I don't know, not born to kill, but
Speaker 3: are destined to kill, and people that would certainly kill irregardless.
Speaker 3: I mean a lot of a lot of the books
Speaker 3: that have examined on this program have been about killers.
Speaker 3: That really why it's sort of interest is because it
Speaker 3: is such extreme behavior. You know, the Arthur Shawcrosses, the
Speaker 3: Edmund Kemper's, some of the people that keep the sex
Speaker 3: slaves and the dungeons and the torture chambers. Some of
Speaker 3: these people are beyond reproach. But again, in a comprehensive
Speaker 3: study of murder, there are varying degrees, aren't there.
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, uh, certainly there are some psychopaths out who
Speaker 5: derive pleasure out of what they're doing, and you know,
Speaker 5: they are motivated to keep doing it. They you know,
Speaker 5: are they feed on their own perverse thrills to do
Speaker 5: these types of acts of murder and torture. So there
Speaker 5: are definitely some killers who are lost causes no matter what.
Speaker 5: But even they still, if they had their own way,
Speaker 5: they would continue to kill, you know, indefinitely. I mean,
Speaker 5: they don't really want to be locked up in prison
Speaker 5: for the rest of their lives. And certainly most of
Speaker 5: them do not want to die. I want to be executed,
Speaker 5: which is the irony of it. And that they're willing
Speaker 5: to kill, and often in the most inter of ways,
Speaker 5: and yet they still do not want to meet the
Speaker 5: same fate atime. So one of the things I came
Speaker 5: up with in the this study of the dynamics of murder,
Speaker 5: kill or be killed is that the Internet is beginning
Speaker 5: to play a more prominent role than homicidal behavior, which
Speaker 5: is natural. I mean, it's a natural evolution considering a
Speaker 5: strong roles in all aspects of society.
Speaker 3: Now, so the anti So do you mean, what do
Speaker 3: you mean by intimate? So tell us tell our audience
Speaker 3: what you mean by intimate? And why do you think
Speaker 3: that's just a natural.
Speaker 5: Internet? I'm sorry, the Internet? Okay, worldwide Web online? Uh, well,
Speaker 5: I said, it's it's a natural progression because the Internet
Speaker 5: is a big part of our society now social media
Speaker 5: and so killers have also caught on just as non
Speaker 5: killers have to the online world. So as a result,
Speaker 5: you have killers who are talking victims the same way
Speaker 5: that they would outside the Internet. A good example is
Speaker 5: the Long Island serial killer, which I think some of
Speaker 5: your listeners may be familiar with.
Speaker 4: This is a.
Speaker 5: Killer that's been killing prostitutes in the New York Long
Speaker 5: Islands for a few years now, and at least several
Speaker 5: of the prostitutes that have been murdered by this so
Speaker 5: far unknown killer advertised their services on craigs List. So
Speaker 5: that you know one instant of how the Internet can
Speaker 5: proved to be something that could be very dangerous for
Speaker 5: people with there wanted for the wrong reasons, or there
Speaker 5: too gullible for predators.
Speaker 3: Yes, I agree with you too. I agree with you.
Speaker 3: There's two cases in Canada where one was alured his
Speaker 3: victim under the pretense that he was a woman to
Speaker 3: a garage and film the murder. That was in Edmonton,
Speaker 3: and then, of course the Luca magnota case in Montreal
Speaker 3: where he created an online presence through social media and
Speaker 3: Facebook for years creating his own sort of image and
Speaker 3: then killing human being and define and defiling the body
Speaker 3: on video and posting that video for everyone to step.
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Speaker 3: And then so Yes, the Internet's very, very important for
Speaker 3: a lot of the narcissistic killers. Some of the killers
Speaker 3: from the seventies and the eighties would have loved the
Speaker 3: Internet right now with all the the ability to communicate
Speaker 3: with people, wouldn't they.
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, and Dan it makes it that much more
Speaker 5: difficult for the authorities to track them down using anonymous
Speaker 5: chat rooms and that sort of thing on the Internet.
Speaker 5: So certainly some of these brutal killers from the past sixties, seventies,
Speaker 5: eighties would love to nineties be transported in time as
Speaker 5: they could, where they have a much wider range of
Speaker 5: potential victims and an easier way to escape detection. But
Speaker 5: I'd like to talk a little bit about Jody Areas
Speaker 5: if I could, with her case in the spotlight. She's
Speaker 5: a good example of the female killer that I studied
Speaker 5: in the Dynamics of Murder. She most females who kill
Speaker 5: for issues related to love, jealousy, hatred, which are often intertwined,
Speaker 5: and that's exactly the situation with Jody. Even her murder
Speaker 5: was certainly over the top, where she stabbed this guy
Speaker 5: twenty something times and then shot him as well.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 5: Definitely a brutal personal attack, and she's now hoping that
Speaker 5: she can have her life spared, most likely to spend
Speaker 5: the rest of it in prison. When I think of
Speaker 5: Jody Arius and her attempts to lessen her own guilt
Speaker 5: while begging for her life the same time, I'm reminded
Speaker 5: of this great movie I watched once called I Want
Speaker 5: to Live. I don't know if you saw that one
Speaker 5: or not, but as Susan Hayward, who won an Academy
Speaker 5: Award as a woman sentenced to death for murder. She
Speaker 5: claims she was innocent to the very end, but eventually
Speaker 5: she sent to the gas chamber. So in Jody's case,
Speaker 5: she may or may not suffer the same fate. But
Speaker 5: she's a great example of how jealous rage can accomplish
Speaker 5: your goal of killing someone, but at what price to
Speaker 5: your own life and times? And she's de chroit, you know,
Speaker 5: she's the family members of her victim, they're suffering, her
Speaker 5: own family suffering. So it pains me to hear about
Speaker 5: these types of cases where people do things in the
Speaker 5: name of love for hate. I'm an intimate murder and
Speaker 5: then the consequences are there for everyone to see in
Speaker 5: a case like hers.
Speaker 3: Now, given you've just done this amazingly comprehensive study and
Speaker 3: examination of murder from all facets and aspects and perspectives,
Speaker 3: could you have predicted with what you know right now
Speaker 3: about Jody Arius's background, could you have predicted any of this?
Speaker 3: Could you have predicted a possibility of such behavior as
Speaker 3: we're seeing her convicted of?
Speaker 5: Absolutely dan As a matter of fact, another true crime
Speaker 5: short that I've written, the pick Axe Killers just came
Speaker 5: out recently. It had another version of Jody Arias thirty
Speaker 5: years ago named Carla Fay Tucker. Carl La Faye was
Speaker 5: while bringing on drugs and alcohol. She and her boyfriend
Speaker 5: broke into an apartment of an acquaintance in Houston, Texas,
Speaker 5: and they used the pick axe to bludgeon him and
Speaker 5: his female companion. At the time, Carler bragged that using
Speaker 5: the pick axe actually gave her a sexual thrill.
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 5: What goes around comes around, unfortunately, and just about every
Speaker 5: murder case that we have in this year twenty thirteen
Speaker 5: is simply a repeat of something that's happened in earlier generations.
Speaker 5: In the case of counter Faith, she was convicted and
Speaker 5: sentenced to death, but her it took a while, of course,
Speaker 5: for her sentence to be carried out. In the meantime,
Speaker 5: she became a born again Christian and the death penalty
Speaker 5: itself took center stage, and this country and around the
Speaker 5: world actually is opponents and supporters clashed over what should happened.
Speaker 5: But similar to Jody Arias, Carl the faith she hers
Speaker 5: was very violent, wicked type of homicidal action on her part,
Speaker 5: and she turned her life around in prison, but not
Speaker 5: before she'd already done the deed. She eventually was executed,
Speaker 5: even though she had expressed regrets, just as Jody has
Speaker 5: to some degree. Jody has yet to really own up,
Speaker 5: in my opinion, to her crime, but she's still relatively
Speaker 5: fresh from having done it. If she's also on death
Speaker 5: flow or in prison for the rest of her life,
Speaker 5: then after she's been there for a while, she may
Speaker 5: well come to show more remorse for what she did.
Speaker 5: But again it's still after the fact, And so that's
Speaker 5: the essence of homicidal behavior. Once you're captured and in
Speaker 5: prison for a while, just about every murderer tends to
Speaker 5: reflect and you know, have some second thoughts of what happened.
Speaker 5: But the key in this society, Dan is to try
Speaker 5: to find a way to get to potential murderers, whatever
Speaker 5: their issues, to try to reach Dann at a stage
Speaker 5: before they take that fatal turn where there's no turning back.
Speaker 3: Well, that's much easier said than done, isn't it.
Speaker 5: So in this that is absolutely true.
Speaker 3: Tell us some specific because you've written this book, you
Speaker 3: have to have come to some conclusions. You've seen the
Speaker 3: model that hasn't been working, that well, obviously, what what
Speaker 3: do you think as a model, what what do you suggest?
Speaker 5: What need to have more a people professionals talking in
Speaker 5: the schools. We really have to start at the grade
Speaker 5: school level because the children are children become adult killers,
Speaker 5: some become child killers. But it's at that stage where
Speaker 5: a lot of children who become killers in the future
Speaker 5: are showing temperament, mental problems, problems with other problems with behavior,
Speaker 5: showing little respect for authority or even their parents. Uh.
Speaker 5: Some kids are bullies, for example, when they're young, and
Speaker 5: that can play a factor both ways. It can cause
Speaker 5: that bully to ultimately take that to a greater level
Speaker 5: the older as a person gets or the person that
Speaker 5: being bullied can just have this rage building up inside
Speaker 5: him or her and then end up becoming killers like
Speaker 5: the Columbine youths who unloaded their rage there. So that
Speaker 5: would be one thing I would say is that we
Speaker 5: need to have more people trying to talk to youths
Speaker 5: in grade schools and high school as well and try
Speaker 5: to see where they're coming from. See where I mean.
Speaker 5: I realized this would be a huge undertaking in society
Speaker 5: when you know schools are often hard pressed for funds
Speaker 5: and society itself hugely reluctant to give taxpayer dollars to
Speaker 5: much of anything that if they can avoid it. But
Speaker 5: this is one where I think if we could give
Speaker 5: all children more counseling, more getting a better perspective on
Speaker 5: how they view life, how they view themselves, how they
Speaker 5: view committing crimes, harming animals, that sort of thing, anything
Speaker 5: that if we can have a better perspective on how
Speaker 5: they view the world around them, I think we could
Speaker 5: probably do a better job of preventing some of this
Speaker 5: behavior by trying to steer them in the right direction.
Speaker 5: A lot of chillers walk with real killers were also
Speaker 5: crew to animals when they were young. But a lot
Speaker 5: of times this is parents may even know this, but
Speaker 5: they I dismissed it as you know, just to temper
Speaker 5: cantm with something, no big deal.
Speaker 3: Well you know that aloneness, you know, because there has
Speaker 3: some controversy, whether you know, the lighting fires, wetting the beds,
Speaker 3: killing animals, having no remorse over animals, killing of them.
Speaker 3: You know, I grew up just like a regular guy,
Speaker 3: I really did. But there was guys. There was people
Speaker 3: around me. Not every person, but there were some certain
Speaker 3: people around me. That were very much cruel to animals
Speaker 3: and turned out fine, you know, and I happened to
Speaker 3: no matter of factly. But I think the thing is
Speaker 3: is that what you're talking about is idealistic, not so realistic,
Speaker 3: because then there would be a danger in the identification
Speaker 3: of certain people at certain ages because of certain behavior
Speaker 3: as destined to do certain things. So then we have
Speaker 3: to read direct them whether they want to be redirected
Speaker 3: or not. Well, you know, so you would you would
Speaker 3: get the tailtale, you would get the tailtale psycho probably
Speaker 3: you would, you would, you know. I think there's a
Speaker 3: combination of things here. There's a psychopath, everybody knows who
Speaker 3: that is, and then there's the the person with mental
Speaker 3: issues which could be psychotic. And then so there's this
Speaker 3: and then again certainly people with no history of mental illness,
Speaker 3: and certainly probably there's witnesses to say that they're certainly
Speaker 3: not psychopathic, and yet they are killers as well. So
Speaker 3: we were dealing with a major undertaking, and then some
Speaker 3: sort of you know, analysts, you know, analysis of the
Speaker 3: information that you're getting and someone to then diagnose this
Speaker 3: as so, you know, in realistic terms, it's a huge
Speaker 3: undertaking that there's not very much money for and it's
Speaker 3: not as focused as maybe it might. You know, you
Speaker 3: might imagine, right.
Speaker 5: Yes, well there's no getting around the fact that that
Speaker 5: would be a tremendous undertaking and not likely to occur, frankly.
Speaker 5: But at the same time, we're going through this continual
Speaker 5: cycle of killers who you know, just about every killer
Speaker 5: that you hear about, ultimately people will say, well, you know,
Speaker 5: I saw this sign of aggression, or this person displayed,
Speaker 5: you know, some hatred towards this group, or you know,
Speaker 5: this person has been dealing with some issues after he
Speaker 5: was a victim of child abuse or child sexual abuse.
Speaker 5: You know, there's just little signs and sometimes not little
Speaker 5: signs that are always there for killers that if we,
Speaker 5: you know, it had some sort of indication of this,
Speaker 5: we may have been able to offer them some sort
Speaker 5: of help, psychological or otherwise, that could have made a difference. So,
Speaker 5: you know, if we can't just continue to deal with
Speaker 5: these issues after the fact, because all that's doing.
Speaker 2: Is just.
Speaker 5: We're getting them off the street, which of course is
Speaker 5: a great thing, and we're trying them and convicting them,
Speaker 5: sending them to prison or executing So that's a good
Speaker 5: thing to deal with the after mass of homicides and
Speaker 5: other violent behavior, but it still isn't addressing the problem
Speaker 5: of trying to prevent it in the first place. One
Speaker 5: other thing in that respect is we may need to
Speaker 5: reassess the means by which violent offenders are released from prison.
Speaker 5: I mean, there's been numerous instances where killers let out
Speaker 5: or other violent types were released from prison through the
Speaker 5: normal means pro but then they went on to kill
Speaker 5: someone else, or to kill someone for the first time
Speaker 5: using the violent tendencies and the violent environment they may
Speaker 5: have picked up in prison too, then follow through and
Speaker 5: commit some of these painous crimes from the outside. So
Speaker 5: there's just a number of different angles with which we
Speaker 5: can look at this, but we certainly need to try
Speaker 5: to do more as a society to prevent these killing
Speaker 5: or at least put out a concerted effort to do
Speaker 5: so before they occur.
Speaker 3: Well, that's you're dealing with parole boards, and parole boards
Speaker 3: can be lenient or or extremely hard on inmates that
Speaker 3: are are up for parole for early release. There are
Speaker 3: notorious stories of Arthur sharcross Edmund Kemper, all kinds of
Speaker 3: examples of people that were had murdered, were deemed cured
Speaker 3: or rehabilitated, or they were a few years later were
Speaker 3: released and and then reoffended. Now, the thing that only
Speaker 3: can really happen is that that's what you know, pushes
Speaker 3: these these movements, TODs having mandatory minimums and people saying, well,
Speaker 3: no parole murder without the possibility of parole. In Canada,
Speaker 3: we have a system where there is no such thing
Speaker 3: as a there's no death penalty and no death penalty
Speaker 3: since the seventies, and we have no mandatory it's twenty
Speaker 3: five years till to life. I mean, you could probably
Speaker 3: spend the rest of your life in prison, but most
Speaker 3: people are given parole in that twenty five years or
Speaker 3: less and then released out into the community, supposedly rehabilitated
Speaker 3: just during the years of incarceration. I guess so. But
Speaker 3: we don't have any murder without the possibility of parole.
Speaker 3: The thing is a par board can can get it wrong.
Speaker 5: Well, they said again, and you know, but I understand
Speaker 5: on one hand that you know, if someone is seemed
Speaker 5: to be rehabilitated and they serve their time, you know
Speaker 5: they may deserve a second chance at trying to lead
Speaker 5: a law abiding life, but we just have too many
Speaker 5: pacidibus frankly speaking, that continue. I mean, it's like they
Speaker 5: were just on palls while they were in prison and
Speaker 5: then you know, picked right up where they left up.
Speaker 5: It's scary as I thought that is.
Speaker 3: But I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised by that at all.
Speaker 3: And I've seen that trend here as well. People that
Speaker 3: were released involving a homicide are reoffending in short order.
Speaker 3: So I wouldn't I wouldn't doubt if I see them
Speaker 3: three times before the courts for somebody's death. So you know,
Speaker 3: I'm not surprised when then I'm a big supporter of
Speaker 3: you committed murder. You over this boundary that's set by society,
Speaker 3: and I can't feel sorry for I don't feel sorry
Speaker 3: for killers. I just don't feel sorry for killers. Now.
Speaker 3: I'm interested in defenses and self defense and I'm open minded,
Speaker 3: but you know, I reserve my sympathy for victims, victims families,
Speaker 3: and I just don't have any sympathy for killers. So
Speaker 3: you know that extends to I don't care about the
Speaker 3: rehabilitation because I don't think society does anything for this.
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Speaker 3: The rehabilitation of the victim or the victim's family are
Speaker 3: certainly not enough for the victim or the victim's family.
Speaker 3: Barely any consideration for the victim and the victims family
Speaker 3: in the court in the trial, in the appeal, in
Speaker 3: the in the parole, the anything. So that's where I am.
Speaker 3: I'm I'm more interested in. I hate to say it,
Speaker 3: but it truthfully, I've never been a victim. I'm I'm lucky,
Speaker 3: but I can empathize with the victims. And the killers
Speaker 3: are way way down on my list of people to
Speaker 3: care for the rehabilitation.
Speaker 5: But we're on the same page. They are more or less, Dan.
Speaker 5: I think that victims should certainly be front and center
Speaker 5: where concerns trying to help them, to deal with the
Speaker 5: victimization or there, you know, the family members of victims.
Speaker 5: The book that I wrote, the best seller, The Sex
Speaker 5: Stay Murders with the serial killer couple Gerald and Savin Galago, right,
Speaker 5: the father of one of their victims, recently talked about
Speaker 5: how painful it is for him, even though it's been
Speaker 5: thirty years since his daughter was shot to death and
Speaker 5: sexually assaulted by Gerald Galago, that he you knows, just
Speaker 5: pay means that his daughter's gone. You know, he never
Speaker 5: got a chance to be a grandfather her children of
Speaker 5: or even she didn't even get to get married. She
Speaker 5: her fiance was also gotten down by Galigo. So the
Speaker 5: point is the victims. The victimization never goes away. If
Speaker 5: you're the family member of the actual victim, it's you know,
Speaker 5: can still carry you as well for a lifetime. So
Speaker 5: it's the whole umbrella of victims that you have to
Speaker 5: deal with along with the primary victim, it's already gone,
Speaker 5: but it's all those that are left behind that has
Speaker 5: to deal with the mess, frankly of someone murdering loved
Speaker 5: one like that. And so I definitely think that victims
Speaker 5: need to be giving more attention in helping them to
Speaker 5: cope and deal with the loss and trying to carry
Speaker 5: on and trying to make sense of it all, although
Speaker 5: sometimes you can't make sense of it, I mean the
Speaker 5: sense most of the times. In fact, killing people for
Speaker 5: various reasons that defy logic are common sense, but they
Speaker 5: still do it. Killers for their own purposes, even you know,
Speaker 5: the most minor. I mean, some killers, for example, may
Speaker 5: kill someone that they robbed for a couple of dollars
Speaker 5: and it either wasn't enough money or they still felt
Speaker 5: they had to kill the person person whouldn't identify them later,
Speaker 5: And then of course they are identified later through either
Speaker 5: security cameras or CSI teams collecting evidence. They're going to
Speaker 5: get caught nine times out of ten, and then you
Speaker 5: know they're going to have to face the consequences of
Speaker 5: their actions. But so often they never look ahead at
Speaker 5: the endgame for their murderous behavior. And that includes men,
Speaker 5: women and children. Children. That's one of the interesting aspects
Speaker 5: of the dynamics of murder that I studied. For juvenile killers,
Speaker 5: there's long been a debate in society as to whether
Speaker 5: they're culpable or not. Are they responsible for their actions
Speaker 5: or where their brain simply not developed enough to fully
Speaker 5: appreciate what they've done the life lives they may have taken.
Speaker 5: And that is certainly a debatable question. But on the whole,
Speaker 5: I say that if you're old enough to do the crime,
Speaker 5: especially if you fifteen and up, then you have to
Speaker 5: be held accountable. You just can't give teenagers juveniles are
Speaker 5: free pass under the belief that they simply hadn't developed
Speaker 5: the maturity level enough to fully be able to comprehend
Speaker 5: their actions, especially when you consider in modern times, juveniles
Speaker 5: are smart enough to be able to grasp the Internet
Speaker 5: and its complexities, and you know they are just in
Speaker 5: my opinion, I think juveniles are far more mature in
Speaker 5: the ways of the world than when I was a teenager,
Speaker 5: and so it's difficult to say that this same juvenile
Speaker 5: that can handle these violent video games, can hand of
Speaker 5: the internet, can drive, can hand you are very able
Speaker 5: with their computers, but they still can't understand if they
Speaker 5: go out and kill someone that they're trying to rob
Speaker 5: or even for kicks, if they, you know, under the
Speaker 5: influence of drugs or something, and they decide to just
Speaker 5: go after someone just for the fun of it, then
Speaker 5: what's the you know, like.
Speaker 3: Barry, what's what's the number? Though? What where do you
Speaker 3: get the number? Though there's fifteen fourteen? Is there's kids
Speaker 3: being on death row? And what Florida eleven? The kids
Speaker 3: going on twelve? Now, which how do you get your number?
Speaker 3: And then how do these other people get their number then?
Speaker 3: Because it's twelve fourteen in a couple of states? Right?
Speaker 5: Well, actually, I believe that death row is off the
Speaker 5: table for juvenile to a certain age across the country.
Speaker 5: I believe it's the case now.
Speaker 3: So well, okay, regardless, I mean, what what you call
Speaker 3: being put up to adult court? Why do you say fifteen?
Speaker 3: And for those people that are that are saying no, No,
Speaker 3: twelve and fourteen. How is their argument? What's what's your
Speaker 3: argument for fifteen?
Speaker 5: That's a great question. Well, I think that the fifteen
Speaker 5: year old, I think they I simply believe that they're
Speaker 5: more cognizant of what they're doing. I think that's an age.
Speaker 5: In my opinion, I believe that's the age where they
Speaker 5: cross over enough and to adult thinking, especially where it
Speaker 5: relates to violent crimes. You take your father's gun and
Speaker 5: go out and shoot someone with it. I feel that
Speaker 5: at that age you it's you know, an age that
Speaker 5: is questionable. I'm sure some people feel it should be
Speaker 5: like you said, maybe thirteen or fourteen, or seventeen or eighteen,
Speaker 5: But I just feel that there has to be some
Speaker 5: cut off on where the other and I'm willing to
Speaker 5: allow that someone that's thirteen or fourteen, twelve or ten
Speaker 5: may well not have the skilled, the motor skills, the
Speaker 5: mental development that can fully comprehend what they're doing if
Speaker 5: it involves murder. But at the same time, they still
Speaker 5: have to even if they're not in a dult court.
Speaker 5: If some thirteen year old or twelve, as it has
Speaker 5: been the case and more often than not. Acting more
Speaker 5: often you might think it's been a victor the perpetrator
Speaker 5: of rape or some other crime of violence. I definitely
Speaker 5: think that they need to be held as long as
Speaker 5: they possibly can, even if it's in juvenile custody.
Speaker 2: But you know, for.
Speaker 5: A lot of the people regarding putting juveniles violent juveniles
Speaker 5: in adult facilities, I could understand the issues there, especially
Speaker 5: if they're put in the general population. I mean, that
Speaker 5: wouldn't be a very good thing for them. So I
Speaker 5: would say they just may have to if they're tried
Speaker 5: in a dog court and they're still minors, they'll just
Speaker 5: have to have them isolated from the general population. But mhm,
Speaker 5: that still would be better than putting them. And if
Speaker 5: they're they've shown it prepends for enough violent behavior, we
Speaker 5: still wouldn't want them put in a juvenile facility where
Speaker 5: they did might you know, be in position to victimize
Speaker 5: other juveniles. So it's it's really a tight rope there,
Speaker 5: Dan to tell you the truth regarding.
Speaker 3: Well again again, most people, you know, I mean it's
Speaker 3: you're you're worrying about the one juvenile that goes in
Speaker 3: with the other juvenile, uh, criminal killer. I mean, I'm
Speaker 3: not talking. I'm not never talking about minor crime. I'm
Speaker 3: talking about major crime. Rapistophiles and killers. Hey, I mean,
Speaker 3: no one's no one's no one's caring, No one's caring
Speaker 3: what any of those people do to each other. That's
Speaker 3: the whole thing. That's that's what we're based with society wise,
Speaker 3: people used to go to public hangings. Now they do
Speaker 3: not shed a tear when somebody complains about the food
Speaker 3: or the conditions in prison. That's they complaining that they
Speaker 3: have to pay for.
Speaker 5: Right, That's true.
Speaker 3: Yes, you know, the thing is is that The thing
Speaker 3: is is that what I you know, what I have
Speaker 3: a problem with is is sort of looking at the
Speaker 3: bigger picture when you're looking at murder some of the
Speaker 3: the I'm interested in some of the trends. And I
Speaker 3: want to ask you this one question too, because you've
Speaker 3: in your analysis what is it about you know, they're
Speaker 3: notorious wicked women killers, So they have the capacity, whether
Speaker 3: people believe it or not, to kill like men never
Speaker 3: even thought of, and or to kill at the same
Speaker 3: level as men, but or to kill, to be able
Speaker 3: to have the capacity propensity to kill. But what is
Speaker 3: it about men in your in your analysis to everything
Speaker 3: you've looked at. Why is the murder the domain of man?
Speaker 5: Well, that is also a good question. Certainly men are
Speaker 5: by far more likely to kill. They dominate the prisons
Speaker 5: as far as killers are concerned. I think, uh men
Speaker 5: represent about uh more than ninety percent of the murderers
Speaker 5: in prisons today. Uh, but they're I would say, uh that,
Speaker 5: Uh it's in the nature of men, I think more
Speaker 5: than women to kill because they generally tend to be
Speaker 5: the aggressors in their upbringing from you know, the earlier
Speaker 5: in life till they're older, and women are more passive
Speaker 5: in their rows.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 5: Social sex rose in society, so men just uh mm,
Speaker 5: they tend to play out on those aggressions more than women.
Speaker 5: Women are females are the traditionally caregivers, and they just
Speaker 5: are the softer side if you wis holed up in general,
Speaker 5: not in specific. There's certainly plenty of women who and
Speaker 5: teenage girls who have done some you know, atrocious crimes
Speaker 5: violence and murder. But generally speaking, men are still males,
Speaker 5: men and boys sometimes as well. They just grow up
Speaker 5: with a more machismo type character and this can evolve
Speaker 5: into behavior that becomes violent and they're you know, stronger
Speaker 5: as well physically by and large. So for example, if
Speaker 5: you've got a domestic violence situation, the males is more
Speaker 5: likely to be the perpetrator if it comes down to murder,
Speaker 5: even though the female may have still been equally a
Speaker 5: priory to the violence in the relationship, but she still
Speaker 5: doesn't get the the male. She's more likely to get
Speaker 5: the lion's share of the violence. But there are exceptions.
Speaker 5: For example, the Jody Arias case, she says that they
Speaker 5: had domestic violence in their relationship, and she claims she
Speaker 5: was afraid for a life and that sort of thing.
Speaker 5: Whether that is true or not, I'm not sure. I mean,
Speaker 5: there's been no corroboration for what she said, but the
Speaker 5: fact is she was definitely the aggressed her in this instance.
Speaker 5: I mean, she stabbed Fello over twenty times, shot him
Speaker 5: in the head. She was clearly the one that was
Speaker 5: in the driver's seat, so to speak, as far as
Speaker 5: a brutal murder. So women can be capable of really
Speaker 5: heinous crimes, but men just they're almost bred, if you will,
Speaker 5: to be the more aggressive and violent type of person
Speaker 5: in society. And that's been borne out by the fact
Speaker 5: that men are far more likely to kill, whether it's
Speaker 5: domestic violins, terrorism, mass murders, school shootings. I mean, just bye,
Speaker 5: every type of crime, gang murders, every type that you
Speaker 5: can think of. You think of male kill because they
Speaker 5: are the ones that rules the roost.
Speaker 3: Is it an aggressive society that nurtures aggression and and or?
Speaker 3: But but is it? Is it a man's aggressive nature?
Speaker 3: Is it our primary nature?
Speaker 5: Is man's aggressive nature? But it's also a society that
Speaker 5: tends to uh it's sort of uh years allows males
Speaker 5: from tom be involved in this type of behavior. It's uh,
Speaker 5: you know, uh rough and tumble football in the backyard wrestling, Uh,
Speaker 5: you know, it's just, uh, we have a society that
Speaker 5: almost rewards men males in a way in terms of
Speaker 5: being successful in their various pursuits that involves aggression when
Speaker 5: they're young, and so this can escalate to homicidal behavior
Speaker 5: at some point, whether they're young or older. And you know,
Speaker 5: women females growing up, just generally speaking, art brought up
Speaker 5: the same way with the same perspective on how they
Speaker 5: should behave and how they shouldn't behave.
Speaker 7: And so.
Speaker 5: That's why men males tend to be more prevalent in
Speaker 5: violent behavior and also the element of sexual I mean,
Speaker 5: if substance abuse cannot be understated, se substance abuse is
Speaker 5: perhaps the strongest factor, I would say, and homicidal behavior
Speaker 5: for males and females in just about all instances. The
Speaker 5: person that's under the influence each other of alcoholic drugs
Speaker 5: and often both.
Speaker 4: Uh So.
Speaker 5: That's a key element. But males still have the it's
Speaker 5: just it. I wouldn't go so far as to say
Speaker 5: it's genetic per se, but their mental and physical makeup.
Speaker 5: I believe over the years, what they're taught, their environment,
Speaker 5: their family members that may also have their male family
Speaker 5: members that may be involved in criminal activity, or they
Speaker 5: could still be pushed into it by even their female
Speaker 5: family members that can go to their to male family
Speaker 5: members to help them deal with problems with their own
Speaker 5: and expect you know it as part of the expect
Speaker 5: bro expectations that can have men or boys are resorting
Speaker 5: to violence to achieve their means, and sometimes that goes
Speaker 5: into homicidal behavior.
Speaker 3: But did drugs cause the homicidal behavior or did the
Speaker 3: drugs enable that person to.
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Speaker 1: Will Spargo bank namer.
Speaker 3: Fdic to enact that homicide that they had to do that.
Speaker 5: The drugs were just the uh put them over the top.
Speaker 5: They certainly had the homicidal tendencies to do it, to
Speaker 5: perpetrate the crime, but they may have needed something to
Speaker 5: give them that extra edge, uh, an excuse if you will,
Speaker 5: to follow through on what they wanted to do. So
Speaker 5: it certainly is not something that one can use as
Speaker 5: an excuse when they decided to murder someone. Uh, that's
Speaker 5: just something that gives them the impetus to move forward.
Speaker 5: It sort of loosens to inhibitions, all right. Now, like
Speaker 5: to talked a little bit about my latest project that
Speaker 5: I think listeners would find fascinating, Murder at the Pencil Factory. No,
Speaker 5: we're running out of time here, but if I could
Speaker 5: just get in the little Okay. Murder at the Pencil
Speaker 5: Factory the killing of Mary Fagan one hundred years later
Speaker 5: is my latest historical true Crimes short. It's really a
Speaker 5: very compelling case that occurred one hundred years ago April
Speaker 5: twenty sixth, nineteen thirteen. As a thirteen year old, Mary
Speaker 5: Fagan was murdered at the National Pencil Factory in Atlanta, Georgia,
Speaker 5: where she worked putting metal strips around the pencil. She
Speaker 5: was sexually assaulted, battered strango. She was found in the
Speaker 5: basement of the pencil factory. A Jewish American factory superintendent
Speaker 5: named Leo Frank was arrested, tried, and eventually sentenced to
Speaker 5: death for her murder. In a controversy of trial in
Speaker 5: which the prosecution's chief witness was an African American janitor
Speaker 5: at the pencil factory named Jim Conley, who claimed that
Speaker 5: he helped Leo Frank move the body after the fact
Speaker 5: to the basement, and so based largely on his testimony,
Speaker 5: Leo Frank was convicted, and though he was sentenced to death,
Speaker 5: the governor at the time decided to commute his sentence
Speaker 5: to life. But they're in the deep South with some
Speaker 5: problems between the various elements who lived there, Jewish Whites,
Speaker 5: African Americans. The powers that be in the community decided
Speaker 5: that the old Frank was guilty and he should be executed,
Speaker 5: so he was broken out of prison by a lynch
Speaker 5: mob and lynch Woll nearly one hundred years ago, a
Speaker 5: couple of years after the actual murder Mary Faden. But
Speaker 5: this case has generated a lot of controversy ever since
Speaker 5: then because Jewish Americans feel that the old Frank was railroaded,
Speaker 5: others feel that the janitor may have been the real killer,
Speaker 5: and others feel yet someone else may have been responsible
Speaker 5: for the young girl's death. But I think that your
Speaker 5: listeners will find this story very interesting because it has
Speaker 5: a lot of elements in fact that reads like a
Speaker 5: legal thriller today, only it happened a century ago, and
Speaker 5: there's a lot of different angles to the story for
Speaker 5: people to consider as they try to come to terms
Speaker 5: with it in their own thoughts about who may have
Speaker 5: been responsible for Mary Fagan's death at age.
Speaker 3: Thirteen interesting and you have tell us about that. Is
Speaker 3: the pick Axe Murder is the true crime short story?
Speaker 5: Yes, it is. The pick Axe Killers is the story
Speaker 5: of Karla Fa Tucker and Daniel Garrett which I mentioned
Speaker 5: earlier murdered a couple in Houston, Texas nineteen eighty three
Speaker 5: and used the pick axe to just beat them to
Speaker 5: depth and just a very violent crime. Karla Kay Tucker,
Speaker 5: which who was the one that was responsible for most
Speaker 5: of the pick axe hits. She ultimately was sentenced to depth.
Speaker 5: Her boyfriend at the time died in prison before he
Speaker 5: got the chance to be executed. Carla was executed eventually,
Speaker 5: but not before she turned her life around and gained
Speaker 5: a lot of sympathy from high places like the Pope
Speaker 5: and other people that had power around the world, including actors,
Speaker 5: but her faith was stilled. But I think those reading
Speaker 5: this story will also find it a compelling historical true
Speaker 5: crime tell dealing with a vicious murder and the death
Speaker 5: penalty and the consequences of murder and just will allow
Speaker 5: you to take a look at the society we live
Speaker 5: in and you know, wonder how what we can do
Speaker 5: to try to change some things. But I found it
Speaker 5: ironic with the Jody Areas case that she is an
Speaker 5: example of how we seem to be in a cycle
Speaker 5: of these types of vicious crimes by females and some
Speaker 5: instances males too. But I thought about the Karla fey
Speaker 5: Tucker tell every since Jody Arias has been in the news,
Speaker 5: because some people tend to think that this type of crime,
Speaker 5: this is new in our society, and I can tell
Speaker 5: you that it's gone on, you know, the centuries now,
Speaker 5: and the Bell Gunnis at the beginning of the nineteenth
Speaker 5: century was a cold blooded female serial killer. So what
Speaker 5: goes around truly does come around when it comes to crime.
Speaker 5: And I'm sure that in the future we'll hear about
Speaker 5: other Jody arius Is that have done terrible things, murdered
Speaker 5: someone for reasons that really there's no good reason, even
Speaker 5: if you try to convince others that you kill the
Speaker 5: this reason that unless you're defending yourself from being killed,
Speaker 5: h h, there's noisus for killing someone else. So in
Speaker 5: my book the Dynamics of Murder, killed or be killed,
Speaker 5: that's often the essence of homicide. You're going to be
Speaker 5: a victim, victim or an offender, and hopefully you know,
Speaker 5: if you're fortunate enough, you can avoid both because obviously
Speaker 5: there's not an outcome either way.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, Before we go, I just wanted to say
Speaker 3: too that you have case studies, and we didn't get
Speaker 3: into exactly who any of these people are, and but
Speaker 3: just briefly you could tell us, I'm going to name
Speaker 3: some people that are in the case studies, and then
Speaker 3: you can just tell us why you chose these people,
Speaker 3: and just just briefly tell us why you did that.
Speaker 3: Of the person that SA say hell because of me?
Speaker 5: Yes, because then me, uh, yes, I chose that particular
Speaker 5: case because she murdered her boyfriend who is an ex
Speaker 5: NFL star. Say, hey, it was the murder suicide. Actually
Speaker 5: she okay, yes, she felt that. Uh. Steve McNair. For listeners,
Speaker 5: I'm sure maybe familiar with him. He was m played
Speaker 5: with a couple of teams Baltimore. I believe he was
Speaker 5: an NFL quarterback and this happened in two thousand and
Speaker 5: nine in Nashville. Then I chose that particular case because
Speaker 5: it was somewhat unusual in the sense that most times
Speaker 5: it's a male male female suicide, the male let's see killer,
Speaker 5: female victim. But in this case, she say he she
Speaker 5: was jealous of the fact that he was Steve was
Speaker 5: seeing someone else. He was married at the time by
Speaker 5: the way when he was seeing her, but he still
Speaker 5: had another girlfriend apparently, and say he because Zimmy was
Speaker 5: upset at the prospect of losing him, so she decided
Speaker 5: if we couldn't be her, it would be no one.
Speaker 5: So she shot him to death while he was asleep
Speaker 5: and then shot herself. A real tragedy, but it illustrates, nevertheless,
Speaker 5: how women, if firearms are part of the equation, they
Speaker 5: can be every bit as dangerous and deadly as men.
Speaker 5: And that showed was proved positive right there. And because
Speaker 5: she committed suicide, she couldn't be tried even for her crying.
Speaker 3: Sure, why did you include Charles Stewart and who is he?
Speaker 3: Briefly Charles Stewart.
Speaker 5: I concluded him because he murdered his wife in nineteen
Speaker 5: eighty nine in Boston. But the interesting thing with this
Speaker 5: case is after he shot his wife to death hoping
Speaker 5: to cash in on insurance policy and he had a
Speaker 5: girlfriend as well, he used the race card that you know,
Speaker 5: no one ever likes to imagine that happening, but he
Speaker 5: said that initially that an African American had shot his
Speaker 5: wife and wounded him. He had a superficial and so
Speaker 5: at the time the authorities nationwide were questioning African American males,
Speaker 5: especially in the Boston area, but even in other states too,
Speaker 5: As you know, just built to a favorite pitch in
Speaker 5: the media. But then his case began to fall apart
Speaker 5: in the authorities realized that his womb was self inflicted,
Speaker 5: that he had murdered his wife hoping that he could
Speaker 5: get her out of the picture and collect some insurance
Speaker 5: induce his girlfriend. He ultimately killed himself before he could
Speaker 5: be arrested and charged. So, you know, I thought that
Speaker 5: was a good case study to examine because of the
Speaker 5: implications of using race as a means of trying to
Speaker 5: throw off the authorities when the real killer. I mean,
Speaker 5: that's the powerful too that can be used by someone
Speaker 5: who is trying to avoid taking responsibility and knowing that
Speaker 5: race relations then and even now aren't what they should be.
Speaker 5: So he was exploiting that for his own means. But
Speaker 5: it didn't urt.
Speaker 3: Sure. Now you've also included h You've also included Sarah
Speaker 3: Marie Johnson and and byron Yui Sugi Sugi. We won't
Speaker 3: go into that, and also Gerald and Charlene Galago, which
Speaker 3: is the subject of your sex Slave murders. We won't
Speaker 3: go into all of that, but you've included these very
Speaker 3: unique killers as well as case studies in the Dynamics
Speaker 3: of Murder, and you've you've got everything from trends and homicide,
Speaker 3: the dynamics of murder itself, the circumstances, the characterizing the
Speaker 3: murder offender. You've studied the victims. You've studied suicide in
Speaker 3: inter relationships, kids killing parents, parents killing kids, females killing
Speaker 3: their spouses, and vice versa. You've really done a great
Speaker 3: job in covering all of the aspects of murder, the motives,
Speaker 3: the breakdown of the types of killers and motivations, and
Speaker 3: like you say, a lot of the factors that go
Speaker 3: into sort of creating the confluence of events that leads
Speaker 3: to murder. So you've done a great job in capturing
Speaker 3: this in the Dynamics of Murder. And I want to
Speaker 3: thank you very much for this interview.
Speaker 5: And that was certainly my intention to give readers a
Speaker 5: broad perspective on the crime of murder and the various
Speaker 5: with which it occurred and the victims, offenders, society itself,
Speaker 5: the law enforcement. There's just a lot of size to
Speaker 5: every murder that you know, I felt needed to be
Speaker 5: explored so people could appreciate the various facets of murder
Speaker 5: beyond just an individual victim or offender, as is often
Speaker 5: the case, you know, when we hear about our daily
Speaker 5: murders around the country, which are you know, very sad
Speaker 5: to hear, But we also need to have some contexts
Speaker 5: on these christs, who's committing them, why, and you know
Speaker 5: what patterns, what we can learn from them, how we
Speaker 5: can try to prevent or these This worst type of
Speaker 5: crime that can occur in society.
Speaker 3: Absolutely and the one that captures our imagination as well.
Speaker 3: That's why we read true crime books, and that's why
Speaker 3: we read these type of books that are one step
Speaker 3: beyond true crime and trying to understand murder and the
Speaker 3: murderer and trying to avoid victimization. But I think we
Speaker 3: just all are fascinated by murderers themselves and the crimes
Speaker 3: and the effect that it has on again societies, cities, communities, families,
Speaker 3: and just everyone, because we're still talking about crimes one
Speaker 3: hundred years later, like you're murder in the pencil factory.
Speaker 5: So right, I would like to invite listeners through crime fans,
Speaker 5: to not only read these projects of mine, but also
Speaker 5: some of my other bestsellers, the sex slave Murders, serial
Speaker 5: Killer Couples, and Masters of True Crimes and all of those.
Speaker 5: You're an e book, print and audio. Yeah, I was
Speaker 5: going to talk about your website. Also follow me on
Speaker 5: Twitter and Facebook, Wikipedia, good Reads, pen Interests, YouTube, and www.
Speaker 5: Dot Rberryflowers dot com.
Speaker 3: You got it going on. You're a big, one big
Speaker 3: promotional machine there, Barry. I want to thank you very
Speaker 3: much for this interview, and I'm sure to hear from
Speaker 3: you again because you're just one prolific guy and you're
Speaker 3: just uh, I don't know how you do it, but
Speaker 3: you're you're down there in your basement or whatever, and just.
Speaker 5: Yes, I'm social life, h dan. I just try to
Speaker 5: uh uh use my skills to bring to the attention
Speaker 5: of the public some of these crimes and why they're happening,
Speaker 5: and just keeping people informed and knowledgeable. I think that
Speaker 5: true crime writers, you know, have a place in society.
Speaker 5: We're sort of obligated to absolutely show people more than
Speaker 5: what you just hear on the eleven o'clock news. Yes,
Speaker 5: thanks for violence.
Speaker 3: Yes, to tell the stories and then the stories behind
Speaker 3: the stories as well. Because that's all people really do
Speaker 3: is get a little sliver of information out of context,
Speaker 3: like you say, And so this is the way to do.
Speaker 3: This is for the dedicated true crime authors like yourself
Speaker 3: that are out there, and for the dedicated true crime fans.
Speaker 3: There's this give and take of information and then a
Speaker 3: welcome audience that's ready to hear about it and ready
Speaker 3: to read about it. So I applaud you for your work, Berry,
Speaker 3: and I want to thank you very much and have
Speaker 3: yourself a good evening, and we will probably talk to
Speaker 3: you real soon.
Speaker 5: Look forward to that, Dan, and thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much, very goodnight, have
Speaker 5: A good evening you too,