1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,560
Speaker 1: If you need a reminder that separation of church and

2
00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:06,839
state isn't just a polite suggestion, but a vital safeguard

3
00:00:06,879 --> 00:00:09,720
for human life, look at the Pentagon right now. The

4
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,919
Military Religious Freedom Foundation reports that it has received hundreds

5
00:00:13,919 --> 00:00:18,800
of complaints from service members alleging that quote gleeful commanders

6
00:00:19,199 --> 00:00:22,960
are framing the war in Iran as not just a

7
00:00:23,039 --> 00:00:27,760
matter of geopolitical strategy, but as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

8
00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,079
For example, an NCO reported that their commander had quote

9
00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:34,640
urged us to tell our troops that this was all

10
00:00:34,719 --> 00:00:38,679
part of God's divine plan, and he specifically referenced numerous

11
00:00:38,679 --> 00:00:42,280
citations out of the Book of Revelation referring to armageddon

12
00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,600
and the imminent return of Jesus Christ. He said that, quote,

13
00:00:45,719 --> 00:00:49,119
the president has been anointed Jesus to light the signal

14
00:00:49,119 --> 00:00:52,560
fire in Iran to cause armageddon.

15
00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:53,679
Speaker 2: And mark his return to Earth.

16
00:00:54,479 --> 00:00:57,520
Speaker 1: If you're surprised, then you haven't been paying attention when

17
00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,399
people are praying over the president in the Oval office,

18
00:01:00,439 --> 00:01:03,719
praising his divine warrant, and the Secretary of Defense is

19
00:01:03,719 --> 00:01:07,319
hosting prayer meetings at the Pentagon with open Christian nationalists.

20
00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:10,760
No one should be surprised when a religious fanatics in

21
00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,680
our officer corps feel emboldened to declare to their troops

22
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,680
that their mission is no longer the national security of

23
00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,799
the United States, but a Christian mission to bring about

24
00:01:20,799 --> 00:01:22,000
the end of the world.

25
00:01:22,159 --> 00:01:23,359
Speaker 2: None of this is surprising.

26
00:01:23,359 --> 00:01:28,040
Speaker 1: It's all just alarming signposts confirming we have officially left

27
00:01:28,079 --> 00:01:29,640
the realm of reality.

28
00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,000
Speaker 2: Look, when you believe.

29
00:01:31,719 --> 00:01:36,599
Speaker 1: Your leaders have a divine mandate, you stop seeking diplomatic exits,

30
00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,840
You stop valuing the lives of the enemy because they're

31
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,680
just Amalekites in a script that was written two thousand

32
00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,319
years ago, and you stop questioning anything you are ordered

33
00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,879
to do. If you have thoughts about a death cult

34
00:01:50,959 --> 00:01:53,760
running the most powerful military on the planet, where its

35
00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,560
members are actively seeking to bring about the annihilation of

36
00:01:56,599 --> 00:01:58,760
all life, give us a call.

37
00:01:59,280 --> 00:01:59,920
Speaker 2: The show starts.

38
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,319
Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, everybody. Today is March fifteenth, twenty twenty six.

39
00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:13,439
I am your host, the Cross Examiner, and I'm delighted

40
00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,360
to say that joining me right now is Jmike.

41
00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,800
Speaker 2: How you doing, man, I am doing awesome.

42
00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,759
Speaker 3: I'm going to make sure I don't bleed audio when

43
00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,680
I try to get people pulled in from the other platforms.

44
00:02:24,159 --> 00:02:24,520
Speaker 2: That we have.

45
00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:26,439
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, so I'm going to click this button and

46
00:02:26,479 --> 00:02:28,719
if I did it right, we will hear nothing.

47
00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:30,639
Speaker 2: We heard nothing, all right.

48
00:02:30,759 --> 00:02:32,719
Speaker 3: Body praised me in the comments I didn't mess up

49
00:02:32,719 --> 00:02:35,199
today because literally everything I've done today has been one

50
00:02:35,199 --> 00:02:35,919
giant mess.

51
00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:37,919
Speaker 2: Up after the next mess up. So I had to

52
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,120
It's a miraccle. Yes, yeah, exactly.

53
00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,199
Speaker 3: No, I'm I'm I'm stoked, man. I haven't been on

54
00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,719
the show in a while, so yeah, I had. I

55
00:02:45,719 --> 00:02:47,479
saw in like a comment on YouTube, someone was like,

56
00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,199
we miss you, and I was like, someone misses me.

57
00:02:51,319 --> 00:02:51,680
Speaker 2: It's great.

58
00:02:51,719 --> 00:02:54,080
Speaker 3: They're like they made it seem like I was gone

59
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:54,919
forever or something.

60
00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:56,360
Speaker 2: I was like, no, no, no, they come.

61
00:02:56,759 --> 00:03:00,000
Speaker 1: They threw a bible at you, and they missed you.

62
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,400
Speaker 3: I've talked with THESS now for I don't even know,

63
00:03:02,439 --> 00:03:04,520
like eight years online or something, and I'm.

64
00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,879
Speaker 2: Just there was a really nice break. I will put

65
00:03:06,879 --> 00:03:08,039
it that way. I think that's good.

66
00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,080
Speaker 3: I've been doing this a couple like a little small

67
00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,159
breaks out of time. Yeah, but I'm back in this

68
00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,680
out now, I think, oh, great fully back at it.

69
00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:16,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah, I know I've missed you. You're one

70
00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,879
of my favorites to be with. You always have such

71
00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,919
great insight, especially on the philosophical matters. I'm really looking

72
00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:23,680
forward to taking some calls with you today.

73
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,919
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, man, we we we had a blast in

74
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:27,800
person together.

75
00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:29,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, you're like homies now.

76
00:03:30,319 --> 00:03:33,719
Speaker 1: That cruise time. Yeah all right, well let's get into it.

77
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,360
We've got some calls, so I'm just going to do

78
00:03:35,479 --> 00:03:39,000
our an official declaration that the Atheist Experience is a

79
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:40,840
product of the Atheist Community of Austin.

80
00:03:41,199 --> 00:03:43,840
Speaker 2: We are a five oh one c three organization.

81
00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,840
Speaker 1: It's a nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism,

82
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,879
critical thinking, secular humanism, and my personal favorite, the separation

83
00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,240
of religion and government. We do have some calls, So

84
00:03:56,319 --> 00:03:58,919
unless you got anything you wanted to die into chat about,

85
00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:00,520
do you want to jump into some then.

86
00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,199
Speaker 2: No, let's let this. Let's let this spark it up.

87
00:04:04,199 --> 00:04:06,439
Speaker 3: I mean, I kind of told you before what I

88
00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,800
was on my mind before the show, and yeah, I

89
00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:11,360
don't want to I.

90
00:04:11,319 --> 00:04:13,599
Speaker 1: Don't want to be take a minute, let's let's talk

91
00:04:13,599 --> 00:04:13,840
about it.

92
00:04:14,479 --> 00:04:16,519
Speaker 3: I'm just scared, man, It's just I just think there

93
00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:21,560
needs to be more like conceded effort for people to

94
00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,519
really have these types of conversations with other people. I'm

95
00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,160
there's certain shows, one of which is like the most

96
00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,600
popular show. It's like ever existed, and it just there's

97
00:04:31,639 --> 00:04:34,439
a lot of platforming of just science denial, and it's

98
00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,959
it freaks me out and I'm trying to get like

99
00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:41,319
maintain a positive I want to make sure people aren't like,

100
00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:43,879
oh man, Mike's putting me down today with this. So

101
00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,639
I don't want to start off on a horrible note,

102
00:04:47,639 --> 00:04:49,759
but yeah, I want to be frank that I this

103
00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:50,360
scares me.

104
00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,519
Speaker 2: You know a lot of what's what's going on, and I.

105
00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,639
Speaker 3: Just urge people to have more conversations, get online, get

106
00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,079
on the tiktoks, talk with people immediately around you have

107
00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,560
these conversations. Don't have that pit in your stomach that

108
00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,560
I do sometimes where I'm like, oh, I'm an atheist

109
00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,439
and I don't want to explain this to coworker whatever.

110
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,720
You know, if well, maybe working might not be the

111
00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,040
best scenario, but outside of that, if you have that

112
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,680
kind of feeling, just be honest because that might be

113
00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,759
enough for someone to be like I don't really meet

114
00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,600
very many atheists and you can change their perspective like

115
00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,519
that they already probably have buried.

116
00:05:22,199 --> 00:05:22,720
Speaker 2: In their mind.

117
00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, you know, it just reminded me. It

118
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,120
didn't really put two and two together until just now

119
00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,639
I saw. I took my family, my son from college

120
00:05:30,759 --> 00:05:33,759
is home from spring break, and my younger sons here,

121
00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,639
and we took them all out to see the movie

122
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,120
Hoppers yesterday. It's a new Pixar film. I'd rank it

123
00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,040
above average for Pixars, so it's pretty good.

124
00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,000
Speaker 2: I'm so out of the loop. I've never even heard

125
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,600
of it. It's the takeaway is addressing.

126
00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,480
Speaker 1: I think what you're talking about, which is the general

127
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,759
plot you'll get even from the marketing, is there's a

128
00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,560
girl who's very concerned that this highway project is going

129
00:05:56,639 --> 00:06:00,680
to put a belt weigh right through a little pond

130
00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,839
that a lot of animals go to, and she's overwhelmed

131
00:06:04,879 --> 00:06:07,920
by the fact that she can't stop that, Like it's

132
00:06:07,959 --> 00:06:09,759
this big thing and she can't stop it. And the

133
00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,560
overall message of the movie is you don't have to

134
00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,600
stop it. You just have to focus on the little

135
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,279
stuff that you can control. And I think that's the

136
00:06:16,319 --> 00:06:20,000
message of our modern era is you can hear me

137
00:06:20,319 --> 00:06:23,839
with my dire. Like you know, I tend to focus on, hey,

138
00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,639
this is a wake up call. We've got commanders in

139
00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,639
the US military saying your mission is now to bring

140
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:30,639
about armageddon.

141
00:06:30,759 --> 00:06:32,680
Speaker 2: That should worry and scare people.

142
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,040
Speaker 1: But then I'm hopeful that with millions of people doing

143
00:06:36,079 --> 00:06:38,879
a little bit here and there, like you said, talking

144
00:06:38,879 --> 00:06:40,959
to a neighbor, somebody brings it up at a party

145
00:06:40,959 --> 00:06:42,720
of like, oh, you know this, that or the other

146
00:06:42,759 --> 00:06:44,879
thing about the war or about religion, you can have

147
00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,839
a gentle but firm conversation about that and hopefully moderate

148
00:06:49,199 --> 00:06:52,720
somebody's view. If you moderate somebody's view to be non extreme,

149
00:06:53,079 --> 00:06:56,879
you've done your part. So I recommend you know, go

150
00:06:56,959 --> 00:06:58,399
in and seeing that movie if you look in for

151
00:06:58,439 --> 00:07:00,959
a little pick me up, because it is very funny.

152
00:07:01,399 --> 00:07:02,720
One of the funniest jokes I've ever seen in a

153
00:07:02,759 --> 00:07:05,399
Pixar movie is and it's kind of people shockingly funny.

154
00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,879
Speaker 2: People stay in all.

155
00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,839
Speaker 3: Groups and all tribes, right, It's like, yep, you kind

156
00:07:10,839 --> 00:07:13,279
of stay in your bubble a lot, and it's like

157
00:07:13,439 --> 00:07:17,279
a very normal, like at least I think it's a

158
00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,439
very like natural kind of feeling that when you go

159
00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,360
outside of it, you're kind of nervous or you might

160
00:07:22,399 --> 00:07:23,319
not want you might not.

161
00:07:23,319 --> 00:07:26,879
Speaker 2: Want to see, you know what, what's.

162
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,920
Speaker 3: On the other side, right, it might make you really

163
00:07:28,959 --> 00:07:32,759
fearful about the beliefs you have. And I think that

164
00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:34,319
happens with like a lot of people. But I think

165
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,079
that's like that catalyst because I know for me, like

166
00:07:37,279 --> 00:07:43,120
growing up and having you know, weird psychedelic experiences and

167
00:07:43,199 --> 00:07:48,879
beliefs that you know, I I'm very anti the psychedelics

168
00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:50,560
open you up to the spiritual world. Like I'm very

169
00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,360
like the antithesis of that because of my past and

170
00:07:53,439 --> 00:07:55,920
a lot of what opened that up, like was having

171
00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:57,759
a conversation with some of my friends that were like,

172
00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,439
this is the dumbest shit I've ever heard, Like you say,

173
00:08:00,519 --> 00:08:00,959
like what are you?

174
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,000
Speaker 2: What are you saying and kind of calling me out.

175
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,079
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know that's the best approach, but yeah,

176
00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:09,399
I had never I was never even thinking beyond like,

177
00:08:09,639 --> 00:08:10,839
I'm right.

178
00:08:11,279 --> 00:08:13,839
Speaker 2: This is so true. I had an experience. I feel it,

179
00:08:13,959 --> 00:08:14,120
you know.

180
00:08:15,079 --> 00:08:19,240
Speaker 3: And it took someone kind of just bluntly saying like, look,

181
00:08:19,279 --> 00:08:21,600
that's stupid for X, Y and Z, and I was

182
00:08:21,639 --> 00:08:23,800
just like, shit, I can't really say anything back to you.

183
00:08:23,839 --> 00:08:26,199
Speaker 1: Right, and if you're and if you're somebody having a

184
00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,279
gentle conversation with somebody else, you don't know if it's

185
00:08:29,319 --> 00:08:32,120
the first time they've heard this or you're the seventh

186
00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,440
person who said it, and that's the straw that both

187
00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,440
broke the camel's back. So it doesn't have to be

188
00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,080
one person changing a person's mind. Some kids stop believing

189
00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,000
in Santa Claus because they're teased. Some kids stop believing

190
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,639
because they start learning about science. Some it's just the

191
00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,159
weight of like all my friends are coming to me

192
00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,440
and like saying, hey man, you know a little bit

193
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,080
at the time. So exactly, you don't have to feel

194
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,159
the burden of the world on you. But if you

195
00:08:56,279 --> 00:08:59,039
feel like helping, it can be as easy as volunteering

196
00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:04,360
anything that you feel like will help you psychologically in these,

197
00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:06,360
let's face it, troubling times.

198
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:07,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's.

199
00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:09,240
Speaker 3: Hard to like say this is the way to do

200
00:09:09,279 --> 00:09:12,759
it because a lot of it's stumbled upon scenarios that

201
00:09:12,879 --> 00:09:15,360
you know, you don't expect and then like I didn't

202
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,559
you know, I wouldn't expect for me to kind of

203
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,320
revert back into the you know, I thought I had

204
00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,279
seen something more than you know, what what I had

205
00:09:27,279 --> 00:09:30,279
started out with, which like agnostic atheists kind of vibe,

206
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:31,879
and I was like, oh, no, you know what I'm

207
00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,279
there's something here or whatever. And I never thought for

208
00:09:34,279 --> 00:09:36,440
a second i'd i'd be like, oh, go back to

209
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,639
this cynical kind of atheist or something that it was like, well, no,

210
00:09:39,759 --> 00:09:42,600
I just had you know, I was just pissed off

211
00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,200
kid initially, and then I got older and started experimenting

212
00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,879
and stuff I probably shouldn't have probably explained why my

213
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,799
train of thought so wild sometimes.

214
00:09:52,639 --> 00:09:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, you just never it's.

215
00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,840
Speaker 3: Almost when you kind of are like this has settled

216
00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,039
for me, do you least you know, you least expect it.

217
00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,679
Speaker 2: And I think that's the most opportune time.

218
00:10:04,919 --> 00:10:06,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, at least for me it was because it was

219
00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:08,440
kind of like, oh fuck, I don't know anything, you

220
00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,600
know that at least for me, it was real sobering.

221
00:10:10,759 --> 00:10:10,919
Speaker 4: Yeah.

222
00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:11,799
Speaker 2: Yeah.

223
00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:13,679
Speaker 1: And you'll never know when you'll be that for somebody else,

224
00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,480
like you'll you'll you'll spark that sort of both like

225
00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,039
oh crap, I do need to question things with somebody

226
00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,360
and that could be enough. Like it's it's very rewarding

227
00:10:21,399 --> 00:10:24,879
to have somebody come back to you years later and mention, Hey,

228
00:10:24,879 --> 00:10:26,440
by the way, you were one of the people who

229
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,720
said this thing and it really got me thinking, and yeah,

230
00:10:28,879 --> 00:10:30,320
you know it doesn't have to be today.

231
00:10:30,919 --> 00:10:32,799
Speaker 2: All Right, we do have some calls.

232
00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,360
Speaker 1: Let's jump into it and have Michael he him from

233
00:10:35,399 --> 00:10:39,200
New Mexico, wants to ask the hosts about their morals

234
00:10:39,279 --> 00:10:43,480
concerning slavery, murder, et cetera. I know, uh, this is

235
00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:46,799
right up your alley, j Mike. So Michael, can you

236
00:10:46,799 --> 00:10:47,879
hear us? Do we have you write?

237
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,679
Speaker 2: What is it that you'd like to talk about?

238
00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,600
Speaker 4: Yeah? I just wanted to call in and pretty much

239
00:10:56,039 --> 00:10:59,639
talk about slavery, murder, torture, those things. We all disagree

240
00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:04,320
with them, and oftentimes Christians will say they disagree with

241
00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,600
those things, right, and then turn around and defend them. Right.

242
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,039
Speaker 2: Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna I'm gonna let you talk.

243
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,399
I do. I'm going to disagree with you on one point.

244
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,480
Speaker 1: I don't think we all we all disagree with all

245
00:11:15,519 --> 00:11:17,679
of the things you said. I think the big three

246
00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,919
are typically murder, rape, and slavery. But we have seen

247
00:11:19,919 --> 00:11:22,039
in especially in recent times, I've seen people who will

248
00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,720
argue that sometimes those are justified and you mentioned torture.

249
00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,039
I could probably find a whole bunch of people who

250
00:11:28,039 --> 00:11:30,240
think that torture would be morally justified.

251
00:11:30,279 --> 00:11:31,639
Speaker 2: But anyway, please do continue.

252
00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,960
Speaker 4: Sure, I guess, I guess everything could be morally justified.

253
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,919
I mean, there's very few cases where they just justified.

254
00:11:39,919 --> 00:11:42,879
But like most things, I guess I would say needless,

255
00:11:43,279 --> 00:11:45,519
needless torture, needless murder.

256
00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,440
Speaker 5: And you know a lot of the times, Christians.

257
00:11:49,159 --> 00:11:51,120
Speaker 4: Will turn around and defend these things, defend the concept

258
00:11:51,159 --> 00:11:55,639
as hell, defend slaving the Bible. But I noticed a

259
00:11:55,639 --> 00:11:58,039
lot of atheists will try to defend the same things

260
00:11:58,639 --> 00:12:00,840
if you ask them about doing the things to animals.

261
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,720
Speaker 1: Well, let's define then before I'd love to hear a J.

262
00:12:05,879 --> 00:12:09,759
Mike on this, So let's define. Let's take murder, right,

263
00:12:09,919 --> 00:12:13,320
the worst one. Probably slavery may be worse, but both

264
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,519
slavery and murder are in my definition. And just so

265
00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,159
you know where I'm coming from, I am an attorney.

266
00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:22,360
So when I think of murder, I go to the

267
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,559
open the law books, and it is the unjustified killing

268
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,360
of a human being by a human being. That's murder, right,

269
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,080
That's the law in every jurisdiction in the United States generally,

270
00:12:34,519 --> 00:12:38,799
so that's something that we all agree on. The unjustified

271
00:12:38,879 --> 00:12:41,840
killing of a non human by a human is not

272
00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,440
generally agreed upon by far.

273
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:45,720
Speaker 2: In fact, I.

274
00:12:45,639 --> 00:12:51,360
Speaker 1: Don't think it's it's illegal that particular act unless it

275
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,200
is called animal cruelty.

276
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:53,559
Speaker 2: Right.

277
00:12:53,639 --> 00:12:56,720
Speaker 1: There are statutes for animal cruelty, and some of them

278
00:12:56,919 --> 00:12:59,759
include killing of an animal as cruel but some don't.

279
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,360
So I think that we can have a conversation about

280
00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:08,240
that difference, like why is it that we all agree

281
00:13:08,919 --> 00:13:13,240
that the unjustified killing of a human is bad enough

282
00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:14,919
that we're going to criminalize it. We're not just going

283
00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,200
to find you, but we're going to criminalize it, but

284
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,080
we disagree on the other one.

285
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,159
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts? J Mike Oh, I.

286
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:23,720
Speaker 3: Want to say, what if he has a response to

287
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:25,360
you first, because I don't maybe he's got to YEA.

288
00:13:25,919 --> 00:13:28,240
Speaker 1: So my question there is, how do you explain that

289
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,879
Do you at least acknowledge that we don't have agreement

290
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,360
on the killing of animals and that I would I

291
00:13:36,399 --> 00:13:41,080
would assert that a significant number of people would very

292
00:13:41,159 --> 00:13:44,200
much call those two different moral questions the killing of

293
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,200
a human versus the killing of an animal. Do you

294
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,360
agree that that is true. I'm not saying where you fall,

295
00:13:50,399 --> 00:13:51,639
but do you agree that that's true?

296
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:54,919
Speaker 6: Yeah, like that definitely, it's true.

297
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:56,759
Speaker 4: There's a lot more division on whether or not it

298
00:13:56,799 --> 00:13:58,759
is okay to do those things to end, and I

299
00:13:58,799 --> 00:14:03,440
agree that legal, like not only legally, but ultimately people

300
00:14:03,519 --> 00:14:05,000
drop distinctions.

301
00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:11,039
Speaker 1: But yeah, okay, yeah, so J Mike, what's your take

302
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,200
on why that distinction exists or should or should not exist?

303
00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:18,080
Speaker 3: Well, I mean when I hear those terms, I think

304
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,960
they're kind of there's already like baked in the wrongness

305
00:14:21,039 --> 00:14:21,919
or something like that.

306
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:23,600
Speaker 2: So like, yeah, the.

307
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,720
Speaker 3: Use of the term murder, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's kind

308
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,000
of about this this it's like implied, you know, that's

309
00:14:30,159 --> 00:14:32,639
unjustified at least the same kind of definition I have.

310
00:14:34,519 --> 00:14:35,720
Speaker 2: I'm more so like.

311
00:14:35,759 --> 00:14:38,559
Speaker 3: Interested in the because you had said something like, uh,

312
00:14:38,879 --> 00:14:41,360
but they don't atheists want do this for like animals, right,

313
00:14:41,399 --> 00:14:43,600
So you're like going on some kind of like a

314
00:14:43,679 --> 00:14:45,639
vegan concern or something.

315
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:48,679
Speaker 7: Yeah, pretty much.

316
00:14:49,879 --> 00:14:51,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I don't I don't know that there's like

317
00:14:51,399 --> 00:14:53,759
a great like you know, I have a lot of

318
00:14:53,759 --> 00:14:57,120
friends that are vegan, and if they like run, you know,

319
00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,000
name the trade on me. I'm like I don't fucking

320
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,879
know the trade. I I think it's maybe an unreasonable

321
00:15:01,919 --> 00:15:05,639
demand to expect somebody to be able to like determine

322
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,240
what threshold or trait that that's you know, I don't know,

323
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:10,919
it seems like it could be unreasonable.

324
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,120
Speaker 2: Like, you know, I get it. I can't figure out how.

325
00:15:14,039 --> 00:15:15,600
Speaker 3: To argue back with them, you know what I mean,

326
00:15:15,639 --> 00:15:20,720
Like they they take me to task. So that's that's

327
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,200
always been like difficult for me because I don't want

328
00:15:23,279 --> 00:15:26,039
sentient creatures to suffer, and so I don't know that

329
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,240
I have the best example for that, but I don't.

330
00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:33,679
I just into it that like conscious creatures like animals

331
00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:37,240
or certain animals are just like like I can have

332
00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:41,080
well established projects and relationships and certain things that just

333
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:42,399
aren't privy.

334
00:15:42,039 --> 00:15:44,639
Speaker 2: In the in the.

335
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,519
Speaker 3: The animal kingdom is to the degree at least that

336
00:15:46,559 --> 00:15:49,720
I sympathize with. So, you know, for me, it's like

337
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,519
I want to be vegan. So it's a struggle that

338
00:15:52,559 --> 00:15:55,840
I have, But I honestly couldn't give you you know,

339
00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,279
I couldn't say I'm okay with it, like when I

340
00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:02,759
eat a chicken sandwich, like I'm okay that a chicken

341
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,759
got you know, murdered or something, whereas like you know,

342
00:16:05,799 --> 00:16:09,279
people that are defending slavery or or something like that,

343
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,120
like they're they're okay with it, like they seemingly are

344
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:13,679
okay with Oh they.

345
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,600
Speaker 2: Were indentured servitudes, and they this is something that they did.

346
00:16:16,639 --> 00:16:18,879
Speaker 3: Like it's to me, it's a little different when I'm

347
00:16:19,039 --> 00:16:21,799
you know, I'm actively like I don't want animals to suffer.

348
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,200
I'm very conditioned in my society, and I have very

349
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,720
limited options. I don't make a ton of money, so

350
00:16:27,759 --> 00:16:30,600
I can't just go spend twice as much money on food,

351
00:16:30,639 --> 00:16:34,720
you know, for vegan products, you know, so for for me,

352
00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:37,000
I guess I don't really view those the same thing,

353
00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:39,480
though I do kind of get your concern, if that

354
00:16:39,519 --> 00:16:41,759
makes sense, Like I understand your concern. I just I

355
00:16:41,799 --> 00:16:44,559
think that like Christians and other people that are, you know,

356
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,240
defending this, like they don't see it as wrong, right,

357
00:16:49,559 --> 00:16:51,840
whereas I do, see I think we shouldn't.

358
00:16:51,919 --> 00:16:53,919
Speaker 2: I think we should eat lab meat if I had

359
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:54,360
that option.

360
00:16:57,519 --> 00:16:58,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, that makes sense.

361
00:16:58,559 --> 00:17:00,639
Speaker 4: I mean I do have to I do have to say,

362
00:17:00,679 --> 00:17:02,799
like you don't have to spend twice as much money

363
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:03,519
on vegan food.

364
00:17:03,559 --> 00:17:06,079
Speaker 1: I mean, hold on, hold on, hold on, let's let's

365
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,680
we might might might have been hyperbolic, but when I

366
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,839
have tried, have spent more money and been more hungry,

367
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,400
and it's been more of a like a nuisense than

368
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:17,599
me being happy.

369
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:19,599
Speaker 2: So you could just say I'm selfish. I guess.

370
00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:22,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I want to keep this on the rails,

371
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,079
I guess before we get back to you, Michael, my

372
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,440
question for you is why did you call into a

373
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,599
show about religion and the separation of religion and government

374
00:17:32,759 --> 00:17:37,200
about veganism. That's my real question, and you couched it

375
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,119
as I want to ask the host about their morals

376
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,119
concerning slavery murder, but what you really wanted to talk

377
00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,559
about was veganism. I kind of feel like you were

378
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:46,799
very deceptive there.

379
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,640
Speaker 2: Can you explain that well?

380
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,200
Speaker 4: I mean, it truly is what I want to talk

381
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,920
about with slavery and murder, but just with regards to animals.

382
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,480
Speaker 6: I guess it was kind.

383
00:17:58,279 --> 00:18:01,759
Speaker 4: Of like, I'm not trying to be I understand there

384
00:18:01,799 --> 00:18:06,400
is a level of deception, and I don't. I thought

385
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,079
it was a good starting point to understand, like, hey,

386
00:18:09,079 --> 00:18:10,599
we're out, okay.

387
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,160
Speaker 3: That's why I wanted to ask you about it because

388
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,599
that's what I had like suspected too. I was like,

389
00:18:14,759 --> 00:18:15,960
you brought the animal thing, and I was like, I'm

390
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,440
thinking you want to make this a vegan thing, and

391
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:18,960
it's like I can't. And that's why I kind of

392
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:20,400
said what it says, like, I can't really give you

393
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,680
much man, like I would love to not eat animals

394
00:18:23,839 --> 00:18:26,519
and and and be I would be happier in that

395
00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:28,559
sense that I'm like, oh, I'm not contributing to this.

396
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,519
I've told like two of my really good friends about

397
00:18:32,599 --> 00:18:35,240
like I don't know what it is. You know, I

398
00:18:35,279 --> 00:18:37,519
eat a chicken sandwich. I don't like feel guilty or bad.

399
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,480
I can't like make myself feel bad. But if I

400
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,400
saw something like kick a puppy, I'd I can't reason

401
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:43,920
myself into being like what the fuck?

402
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:44,440
Speaker 2: But I would.

403
00:18:44,519 --> 00:18:48,279
Speaker 3: I would be like just initially, I can't really explain that.

404
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:50,559
I mean, I think being conditioned in the society I

405
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,480
I'm in, it's partly to blame. I'm not trying to

406
00:18:53,519 --> 00:18:55,480
take all of it off or anything, but it's just

407
00:18:55,559 --> 00:18:57,880
it's not as interesting of a conversation to me on

408
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,920
this platform as it is like outside of this platform.

409
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,960
Speaker 1: Right, That's That's my question is why are you calling

410
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,960
a show entitled The Atheist Experience to talk about this?

411
00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,519
Speaker 2: Oh? Just oh I'm in the dark. Hold on, we

412
00:19:11,559 --> 00:19:13,640
can hear you. That's okay, I'll talk to Michael.

413
00:19:14,319 --> 00:19:16,559
Speaker 1: Uh So, Michael, why are you calling a show called

414
00:19:16,599 --> 00:19:20,440
The Atheist Experience to talk about veganism?

415
00:19:20,559 --> 00:19:23,039
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, you guys discuss morality a lot on

416
00:19:23,079 --> 00:19:25,200
the show, and I think I wanted to discuss a

417
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,839
little bit about your guys morality and I understand, I mean,

418
00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:31,319
not necessarily religion.

419
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,680
Speaker 2: But it's so so my but.

420
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,200
Speaker 1: I think, Okay, I don't want to put words in

421
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,920
your mouth, but nothing you said just now changes my

422
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,240
mind to think you want a call to advocate for veganism,

423
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,759
and I don't see what that has to do with religion.

424
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,759
Can you be an atheist and a vegan, Yes, you

425
00:19:51,759 --> 00:19:56,279
can be vegan, yes. Can you be an atheist and

426
00:19:56,839 --> 00:19:59,480
support slavery for humans yes?

427
00:19:59,519 --> 00:20:00,960
Speaker 2: Can you be Christian and supports ye?

428
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:01,640
Speaker 8: Yes.

429
00:20:01,839 --> 00:20:04,079
Speaker 2: So I don't understand why you're calling this show.

430
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:08,119
Speaker 1: Instead of the U pro meat call in show or

431
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:09,759
the pro vegan call in show?

432
00:20:09,799 --> 00:20:11,759
Speaker 2: Why not call those shows? Why call this one?

433
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:14,640
Speaker 7: Well?

434
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,319
Speaker 4: I mean I'm not aware of those kinds of shows.

435
00:20:17,319 --> 00:20:18,519
But I mean, if you want to point me in

436
00:20:18,559 --> 00:20:20,920
the right direction, if you're uninterested in.

437
00:20:20,279 --> 00:20:23,759
Speaker 3: TikTok people, is that vegan the bogle, TikTok all sorts

438
00:20:23,759 --> 00:20:24,200
of stuff.

439
00:20:24,279 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 1: So what I'm hearing is you want to preach. You

440
00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:28,839
weren't aware of any shows that were on topic, so

441
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:29,519
you called us.

442
00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:33,160
Speaker 4: I mean, I didn't necessarily want to talk about veganism,

443
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,480
and like, how how expensive it is to buy fake

444
00:20:36,599 --> 00:20:37,960
me products? Like twice its expensive.

445
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,599
Speaker 3: I know. Look, you could like absolutely destroy me on

446
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,920
that with just some empirical facts, right. All you have

447
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,240
to do is just show me some stuff, and I

448
00:20:45,599 --> 00:20:47,519
concede right away and I'd be very happy about it.

449
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,920
Probably not the best choice of words for me to say.

450
00:20:50,279 --> 00:20:53,000
I mean, it was an experience I had where I

451
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,720
was like, damn, okay, this was a little bit more pricey.

452
00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,440
It's not I probably shouldn't have even said it. The

453
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,200
main point is, like, I mean, look, I can be

454
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,319
a moral realist. I could be a moral anti realist.

455
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:04,319
I could be an atheist and.

456
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:05,079
Speaker 2: Say I want everybody.

457
00:21:05,079 --> 00:21:06,920
Speaker 3: I could be a misanthrop I want everybody on animals,

458
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:08,559
want everyone to die, Like I could say that I

459
00:21:08,559 --> 00:21:10,759
could do that, right, It's kind of a like I

460
00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:12,480
don't see what it has to do with especially with

461
00:21:12,519 --> 00:21:14,039
like the cold opening we started with.

462
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,559
Speaker 2: It's it's very unrelated to what we're doing.

463
00:21:17,599 --> 00:21:20,319
Speaker 3: I mean, there's just so many permutations of like an atheist,

464
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,119
being a vegan, not vegan realist about it and not

465
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,279
and not a realist about it. Like I don't really

466
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,319
know that it helps. I tried to be transparent with

467
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,519
you with my own kind of anxieties about this, just

468
00:21:32,559 --> 00:21:35,039
to to be like, hey, look, I struggle with this

469
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:36,960
and I don't know the right solution. But I just

470
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,160
don't find that the same as like, you know, me

471
00:21:40,279 --> 00:21:42,599
not being able to like pinpoint this as like, oh, well,

472
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,680
I can explain to you what exactly I think is

473
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,559
wrong about this other thing like slavery or torture, like

474
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,200
you know, torturing humans or something like that. You know,

475
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,160
it might take me a minute to like explain that

476
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,160
to you. But I don't know that means I'm like

477
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,240
inconsistent because like I have an inability to like explain

478
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,799
one aspect about my value system, right, like what.

479
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,680
Speaker 1: Are your thoughts Michael? And for the record, I just

480
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,920
wanted to point that out. I'm not saying you're a

481
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,319
bad person, and I think you've been very respectful and

482
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,640
polite during the call. So I just wanted to point

483
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,559
that out, and I need to be transparent on my motives.

484
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,279
I've been a fan of the show for many years

485
00:22:16,279 --> 00:22:18,920
and a host on this show for several years. We

486
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,920
do get a lot of very deceptive people calling because

487
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,319
they just want to call and talk about whatever they

488
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,480
want to talk about. And some number of those are vegans,

489
00:22:26,519 --> 00:22:29,039
and they come in and just they want to hijack

490
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:30,880
the conversation and yell at us and tell us that

491
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,759
we're running away when we say, hey, this is a

492
00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:34,640
show about religion.

493
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 2: Can we talk about something else.

494
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 1: So you've been very respectful, except for I think for

495
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,160
the initial sort of questionable way you can describe the call.

496
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:42,920
I do want to let you keep talking, So could

497
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,440
you please respond to J Mike?

498
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 5: Sure?

499
00:22:47,079 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 4: So I understand that you, like you think that when

500
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,200
people are against human slavy, human murders, like when people

501
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,839
are four of those things, it's like they're okay with it.

502
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,039
But this is something that you struggle with necessarily okay

503
00:23:01,079 --> 00:23:04,640
with it? Yeah, you don't you don't necessarily feel bad,

504
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:05,799
Like that's kind of what I'm hearing.

505
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,319
Speaker 3: Well, no, I'm not okay with it, but I'm being

506
00:23:08,319 --> 00:23:10,000
trying to be honest and go. But like when I

507
00:23:10,039 --> 00:23:12,480
eat a chicken sandwich, I'm not like, you know, very

508
00:23:12,519 --> 00:23:12,960
sad and.

509
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:14,839
Speaker 2: Mourning the chicken or something, you know.

510
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,039
Speaker 3: But when I reflect on it, like we talk about

511
00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:18,960
it now, I'm like, yeah, you know, like I do

512
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:20,720
care about syndient creatures.

513
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:22,759
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not gonna like lie like what I

514
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:23,240
What I.

515
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,839
Speaker 3: Really fucking hate is I'll go see some of my

516
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,680
friends who are Vegan's debate and then you'll see from

517
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,559
like the meat eater side, just like.

518
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 6: Steak steak, Yeah, fucking steak and.

519
00:23:34,079 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 3: All have like a steak profile picture, and it's like

520
00:23:36,279 --> 00:23:38,759
it makes me. It's like as a meat eater, like

521
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,000
embarrasses the shit out of me. I'm like, God, like,

522
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,759
there's no and when I've seen some of the better ones,

523
00:23:43,799 --> 00:23:45,799
I haven't seen like a cojuin argument or anyone make

524
00:23:45,839 --> 00:23:48,920
these like good points. Uh So I struggle like philosophically

525
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,960
with it. Right, It's something that I want to change

526
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,440
about myself. I just haven't actively made that change. I'm

527
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,799
just trying to be transparent to you with like, you know,

528
00:23:58,759 --> 00:24:00,720
my own anxieties with it, Like yeah, I mean, yeah,

529
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,880
I can be inconsistent hundred percent, but I don't find

530
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,720
that to be inconsistent with like, you know, other points

531
00:24:06,759 --> 00:24:09,599
of my value system. You'd have to kind of show

532
00:24:09,599 --> 00:24:11,440
me how it's necessarily related.

533
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, you know, I mean, no, I get it.

534
00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 1: I think I'm with you. I mean I haven't even

535
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,039
discussed my position yet. So my take on this is

536
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,920
very similar to Jay Mike's. It's like, if somebody asked me,

537
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,200
what's one moral stance you have now that you might

538
00:24:26,279 --> 00:24:28,799
be wrong about, it would be sort of where that

539
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,160
line is now. I do think there's a line if

540
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,519
I'm asked, is there's two burning buildings and there's a

541
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,039
human baby and a tank full of tadpoles? Which would

542
00:24:39,079 --> 00:24:41,279
you save? You can only save one, I'm picking the

543
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:42,079
human baby.

544
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:42,759
Speaker 2: Why.

545
00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: Well, I could describe a big difference between the potential

546
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,160
and all of that, but what it really boils down

547
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:49,519
to in the end, because I could ask that same

548
00:24:49,599 --> 00:24:53,559
question between there's you know, ten chimpanzees and a human baby,

549
00:24:53,559 --> 00:24:55,799
which are you saving? Well, now it's a tougher question

550
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,680
for me, and that's what morals are, right. Morals are

551
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,279
not an answer yes or no. It's like examining where

552
00:25:01,319 --> 00:25:04,000
lines are and around that line there's a gray area

553
00:25:04,039 --> 00:25:07,079
and you start having conversations. So it has something to

554
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,160
do with the level of sentience potential of what your

555
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,640
life could do for both you and for humanity and

556
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,680
for the world. And it has, if I'm honest with myself,

557
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,160
something to do with speciism, both conscious and evolved.

558
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 2: Right, We've all evolved.

559
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,279
Speaker 1: One of the reasons we have morals in the first place,

560
00:25:25,319 --> 00:25:29,920
in my opinion, is sort of this evolutionary trait where

561
00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:35,599
altruistic behavior benefits the species and enables it to reproduce

562
00:25:35,839 --> 00:25:36,599
and survive.

563
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:37,079
Speaker 2: You know.

564
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,079
Speaker 1: Put short, piranha don't eat each other.

565
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,640
Speaker 2: And there's a reason for that. Right.

566
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,279
Speaker 1: So there's a bunch of things I could point out

567
00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:46,759
to say, I think there's a difference, and I think

568
00:25:46,799 --> 00:25:49,599
there's a line where exactly that is. I think it's

569
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,640
different from person to person and case by case. So

570
00:25:53,799 --> 00:25:56,519
I'm generally in the agreement with you.

571
00:25:56,519 --> 00:25:58,319
Speaker 2: And j Mike. What are your thoughts on that? Do

572
00:25:58,319 --> 00:25:59,119
you have any questions?

573
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that makes sense to me.

574
00:26:03,519 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 6: There's a lot of gray areas.

575
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 4: We can talk about chimpanzees with babies, how many, how

576
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,680
many tied up on one side of the track, either

577
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,000
have to be if you pull the lever anyone over

578
00:26:12,079 --> 00:26:14,920
this amount of mentally disabled babies, Like we can we

579
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,720
can talk about these things. But I mean, I guess,

580
00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:21,039
I guess what I'm interested in is like kind of

581
00:26:21,079 --> 00:26:21,839
if we were doing the.

582
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,559
Speaker 5: Animals what we did to humans for ExM you.

583
00:26:24,559 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 6: Know, slaughtering humans.

584
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 4: And I understand you bring up speciesism, bring up speciesism,

585
00:26:28,839 --> 00:26:32,799
like altruistic behavior towards one zone species, you know, leads

586
00:26:32,839 --> 00:26:33,920
the species to gribe.

587
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 3: I mean, well, real quick, but real quick, I don't

588
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,440
know that he's saying he might. I don't think he is,

589
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,160
because I mean, you could just run some name the

590
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,200
trait kind of well it seems like equivalent to being

591
00:26:44,279 --> 00:26:46,759
racist or something, which you know, friends that like make

592
00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:47,559
that kind of argument.

593
00:26:47,599 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 2: But I think he's saying.

594
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 3: He understands how he has a nature and he knows

595
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,839
that Jay Mike has a very similar kind of nature

596
00:26:54,839 --> 00:26:57,119
we share in nature as humans, and he knows what

597
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,559
it's like he has like a quality, right, a qualitative

598
00:26:59,559 --> 00:27:02,680
experience of what it's like to suffer. And it's not

599
00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:05,680
clear that that inference could I mean, maybe it's not.

600
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,000
It might not be clear to him that that inference

601
00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:11,039
could be made about other particular species or something.

602
00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

603
00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: I think there's three different things related to speciism. One

604
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,119
was uh, and I use the word admittedly. I was

605
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,400
admitting there's some speciism in.

606
00:27:20,319 --> 00:27:22,839
Speaker 2: There, right, Oh sorry, I must have no.

607
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: No, no, But there's there's three. There's three different interpretations

608
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,079
that I meant all simultaneous. I tried to hit them all.

609
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:33,200
So there's speciism in the sense of I am a

610
00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:37,000
product of billions of years of evolution that has encouraged

611
00:27:38,079 --> 00:27:42,400
altruistic behavior towards your self, your kind, right, your your

612
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,559
your tribe, right, that has benefited evolution, So that instinct

613
00:27:46,599 --> 00:27:49,960
is strong. I would argue it's very strong, beaten only

614
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,200
by the urge to eat and reproduce and those other things.

615
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,279
But I think it's a very strong and you see

616
00:27:55,279 --> 00:27:59,720
it across all species, many many species. You see this

617
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,319
or not everyone, but it's it seems to be an

618
00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:05,400
element of evolution. Now, does that mean I'm arguing that

619
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,400
anything that is produced through evolution is morally good?

620
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,039
Speaker 2: No, I'm not making that argument.

621
00:28:11,079 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, admittedly, that's playing into who I am

622
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,039
and how I make that evaluation of Like, there's an

623
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,640
instinct in me that as between tadpoles and a human baby,

624
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,240
I'm gonna save the baby. And part of that comes

625
00:28:23,319 --> 00:28:26,000
from billions of years of evolution that train me to

626
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,400
think that large heads on four limbed bodies with large

627
00:28:30,599 --> 00:28:34,759
eye to head ratio are cute, scientifically proven like that.

628
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,519
It's it's a precious thing that it should be preserved,

629
00:28:37,559 --> 00:28:41,000
it should be protected. So I'm admitting that, But also

630
00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:45,640
I'm admitting that from a speciest point of view that

631
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,759
I understand I can relate to. As you were saying,

632
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,759
I can relate to a human, I can. I think

633
00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:55,279
I can relate to a chimpanzee. We have a local

634
00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:58,519
zoo I go to. I skip the chimpanzee exhibit because

635
00:28:58,519 --> 00:29:01,599
I don't think that the chimpanzees should be there unless

636
00:29:01,599 --> 00:29:05,000
there's a very good reason. And but I don't think

637
00:29:05,039 --> 00:29:08,440
that same about the lizard exhibit or the snake exhibit.

638
00:29:08,559 --> 00:29:12,119
So I'm just admitting that for many reasons, I think

639
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,799
I agree with you, But I think there's an interesting conversation.

640
00:29:15,559 --> 00:29:19,920
And but I guess getting back to my main point

641
00:29:20,039 --> 00:29:22,759
is I'm not sure this is the show to talk

642
00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:25,559
about it one because really our audience is looking for

643
00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:27,839
people who are calling in to talk about religion, and

644
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,279
whether you're religious or not, you can you can, you

645
00:29:32,279 --> 00:29:34,720
can have those beliefs or not have those beliefs.

646
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:36,519
Speaker 2: I will say, I do think this is like a

647
00:29:36,599 --> 00:29:38,759
very important topic though. Yeah, you're yeah.

648
00:29:38,759 --> 00:29:41,279
Speaker 1: I think in the next generation or two it will

649
00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:43,039
be the thing that changes the most. I think it's

650
00:29:43,079 --> 00:29:47,640
sort of the next social thing to fall maybe or

651
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,079
one of the next few maybe that that will become

652
00:29:50,079 --> 00:29:52,319
more prominent, especially with lab grown meat.

653
00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: I'm looking for you too, so.

654
00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 3: That, I mean, that would relieve a lot of my

655
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,039
especially if I know I'm not not like, you know,

656
00:29:59,279 --> 00:30:00,480
carcinogenic or something.

657
00:30:00,559 --> 00:30:02,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, try to try to figure out

658
00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:06,519
co labgrown meat by Jewel, Yeah, exactly. Like, let me

659
00:30:06,519 --> 00:30:07,640
see who's making this first.

660
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,039
Speaker 3: No, I this is something that I have philosophical anxieties

661
00:30:11,039 --> 00:30:13,119
on or moral anxieties, whatever you want to call it.

662
00:30:13,119 --> 00:30:16,400
I don't know what I'm saying, so I I completely

663
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,759
get it, and I like, you know, like I said,

664
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,400
I have a lot of friends that have this position,

665
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,000
and I don't know how to argue with them. A

666
00:30:23,039 --> 00:30:25,160
lot of times I think they're you know, it's a

667
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,319
really hard position for Uh. If if someone wanted to call,

668
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,079
like j Mike's running, that's a conversation I will actively

669
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:33,559
run from and be like, oh you're running. Name the

670
00:30:33,559 --> 00:30:36,359
trade them out of your PC. You know, deuces, so

671
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:37,359
you know, like.

672
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think put a put another way.

673
00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:42,160
Uh well, let me ask Michael. I don't want to

674
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,359
hug the conversation. Michael, what are your thoughts about what

675
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,079
we are saying?

676
00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 5: Well, what you.

677
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,839
Speaker 4: Said about the evolution of our species was very interesting,

678
00:30:53,839 --> 00:30:56,440
and it is kind of it was basically an explanation,

679
00:30:56,599 --> 00:30:59,480
you know, as to why we value our own species.

680
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,160
But I mean, I'm concerned with whether or not it's

681
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,200
moral to only value our species. And I think you mentioned.

682
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,279
Speaker 1: And that's what I said, right, I said, I'm not

683
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,839
arguing that because evolution produced an effect, it's a good effect.

684
00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:18,839
Evolution is explains a lot of bad things, the desire

685
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,279
to dominate, to rape, to enslave. You could you can

686
00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:24,119
tie that up and evolution as to tribalism and me

687
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,440
the ego has to be the most important thing in

688
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,519
evolution if you're going to survive, unless you're using some

689
00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:33,720
sort of insect overwhelm metaphor where my ego doesn't matter.

690
00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:37,519
It more matters that we overwhelm. But but just because

691
00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:39,799
evolution produces a thing doesn't mean it's good, and I

692
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,440
pointed that out. So my point about that is it

693
00:31:42,519 --> 00:31:45,200
is explanatory and it is one of those things that's

694
00:31:45,319 --> 00:31:47,720
very hard to overcome, just like the sex drive and

695
00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:50,240
the desire to eat and other things. It's so inbred

696
00:31:50,319 --> 00:31:54,039
in us. And again I'm not a biologist, but everything

697
00:31:54,079 --> 00:31:58,119
I've read on the topic, like tribalism, altruistic behavior amongst

698
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,359
your your fellows, comes from ell. So just wanted to

699
00:32:01,359 --> 00:32:04,920
clarify that. Please continue, Michael, Sure, sure that makes sense.

700
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 4: And I think I heard you say that. You said, now,

701
00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:11,720
just because I'm saying this, that doesn't make anything explain

702
00:32:11,759 --> 00:32:15,119
through evolution moral. But I thought that you were saying

703
00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:17,680
that that kind of influences how you make the moral

704
00:32:17,759 --> 00:32:19,880
judgment about whether or not it's a pay to do

705
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,480
a dute animals. I thought that's kind of what you

706
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:21,839
were saying.

707
00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: I think it influences how I make the judgment, I

708
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,920
wouldn't necessarily call that particular element moral. I would say

709
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,079
that influence is my decision making for sure.

710
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 3: When you say a moral by the way, like, are

711
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,039
you like it's quitely not important? I'm just curious, are

712
00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:38,680
you here ago do you believe in like objective morality

713
00:32:38,799 --> 00:32:39,880
or or no?

714
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 6: Yeah?

715
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 4: I mean I I don't know as much as I

716
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,279
could on this, but I don't see a way to

717
00:32:46,319 --> 00:32:48,279
bridge is the hot gap. I mean, I think that

718
00:32:48,799 --> 00:32:50,920
if I say it's wrong to kill people, that's my opinion.

719
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 5: Right.

720
00:32:52,759 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 3: Oh well, I mean you can be you can be

721
00:32:54,519 --> 00:33:00,240
a realist and then concede like yeah, like the isot is,

722
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,720
like there's this problem in like logic, Like I'm not

723
00:33:04,759 --> 00:33:07,160
going to be able to just like smuggle in these

724
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,240
values that you know weren't anywhere in the premises, right,

725
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,200
But you could still be a realist and accept that

726
00:33:14,279 --> 00:33:18,599
kind of distinction or whatever inability to bridge.

727
00:33:18,839 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: J Mike for for our audience, define moral realism and

728
00:33:23,079 --> 00:33:23,680
its opposite.

729
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, like a moral realist is I mean, I

730
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,480
guess you'll find anyone that might have a different position,

731
00:33:30,519 --> 00:33:34,960
but like generally it's someone that believes that there are

732
00:33:35,039 --> 00:33:40,000
stance independent moral facts. So by that you mean there

733
00:33:40,039 --> 00:33:44,440
are facts independent of the opinions or stance that you

734
00:33:44,559 --> 00:33:46,079
might take or like, you know.

735
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,119
Speaker 1: If humans didn't exist, for example, this rule would still

736
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:49,680
hold true.

737
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's in.

738
00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 3: It's like it's like if I shoved the ball in

739
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,400
your face and you close your eyes and you're like, no,

740
00:33:56,519 --> 00:33:58,920
it's not there. I don't see what stance the ball

741
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,839
stance independently exist. I understand you, you have your other opinions,

742
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,559
but the facts are that despite your opinion.

743
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:07,839
Speaker 2: It exists.

744
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:08,159
Speaker 8: Right.

745
00:34:08,559 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a moral realist believes there are moral rules

746
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,199
first as a shorthand. It's complicated, but yeah, I use

747
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,920
rules exist as almost a property of the universe, whether

748
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,960
or not you believe they exist, or whether or not

749
00:34:20,039 --> 00:34:21,000
you even exist.

750
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think it's I don't think. I think

751
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:25,599
the worst thing to do is like be really precise. Yeah,

752
00:34:25,599 --> 00:34:28,079
with philosophy on like on a platform where like not

753
00:34:28,119 --> 00:34:29,800
everybody's trying to like oh I'm.

754
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,079
Speaker 2: Waking up to read philosophy.

755
00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:33,599
Speaker 3: Today or whatever, because it's not everybody's thing and it

756
00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:35,679
just confuses and I'm trying to do way better at that.

757
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,079
So I think doing it in the broader terms, like

758
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:41,480
does actually just help people generally understand that, But yeah,

759
00:34:41,519 --> 00:34:43,679
somebody you like a better maybe a better term that

760
00:34:44,519 --> 00:34:47,920
the phil bros might get mad at as a mind independence, right,

761
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,039
and there's there are some issues on why you wouldn't

762
00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:52,199
say that, but yeah, just it looks independent of what

763
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,199
you think, and it's true. And if I was just

764
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,440
curious if you had that position, because most vegans, I know,

765
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:03,000
they're they're moral anti real lists. They don't think that morals.

766
00:35:04,159 --> 00:35:06,360
There's like a fact about what we should or shouldn't

767
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,920
do independent of what what they think. They just they

768
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,599
basically think they can show like inconsistency in other people's

769
00:35:11,639 --> 00:35:13,599
value systems and stuff like that.

770
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 2: Right.

771
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it sounds like Michael, from your as and

772
00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:18,760
where you said you couldn't bridge the is at that

773
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,159
tends to in my mind, put you in sort of

774
00:35:21,199 --> 00:35:25,880
the anti realist camp that it is an exercise in

775
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,440
deciding what the game is and then what the rules are,

776
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,519
and then following those rules and saying, well, if the

777
00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:35,199
rules are this, therefore then we shouldn't treat animals this way.

778
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,920
But if the rules are that, then it's okay to

779
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,559
treat animals that ways, is that kind of where you are?

780
00:35:42,639 --> 00:35:45,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm a moral anti realist,

781
00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:48,320
and I would say that I think I would go

782
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,559
a little far further than saying I can prove an

783
00:35:51,559 --> 00:35:54,880
inconsistency in someone else's position, and that's that's as far

784
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,440
as I go with veganism. You know, I would say

785
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,440
that if we're going to say that it's not okay

786
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,599
to kill mentally disabled children, or if like a genetic

787
00:36:04,599 --> 00:36:07,079
disease wipes across you such that fifty one point side

788
00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:10,760
of people were genetically disabled, or if black people developed

789
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,440
it with me so that they technically could an intergreed

790
00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:16,679
with everyone else technically wasn't human. You know, if we're

791
00:36:16,679 --> 00:36:19,599
going to say that all those things all right, hold on,

792
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,840
if we're going to say that all those things still

793
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,119
don't make it okay to kill people, that I mean,

794
00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:28,519
I think that it we logically as to say that

795
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,639
it's not okay to kill animals, not okay to great animals,

796
00:36:31,679 --> 00:36:35,440
not okay to like boist them by the billions into

797
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,480
gas shapeles, you know, or.

798
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 2: It's okay to do it to everybody. Yeah, I mean

799
00:36:41,519 --> 00:36:42,119
one of the other.

800
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, depending on who you're talked to. I mean,

801
00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:48,719
you can get into like particularism and and all this

802
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,760
kind of stuff for our responses to this kind of style.

803
00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 2: Argument or whatever.

804
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, I I think that is actually

805
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,239
a good conversation. And maybe people in the audience won't

806
00:36:58,280 --> 00:36:59,679
agree with me here, but I think that is actually

807
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,519
a good conversational piece to have. Like you if you can,

808
00:37:05,079 --> 00:37:08,000
if you have a friend that's willing, and I mean,

809
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,239
please do it, especially to the people that are like

810
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,840
meet me, meet me like dumb Vegan, like, because that's

811
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,559
just so irrational and stupid. And I love to see

812
00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:18,199
those people just like watch I just love to watch

813
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,760
their eyes like, oh gosh, like man, I was not

814
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,079
prepared to debate this Vegan like it's very very fascinating

815
00:37:24,119 --> 00:37:30,159
and uh satisfying, I'll say to see, but yeah, I would.

816
00:37:30,199 --> 00:37:31,840
I mean, I think it is good to be.

817
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 2: Able to do that. I just think, you know, if

818
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,440
you run into I just.

819
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,559
Speaker 3: Think there's part of me that's like I think if

820
00:37:38,559 --> 00:37:40,079
someone came up to me on the street and just

821
00:37:40,159 --> 00:37:42,920
was like, at what point does like the value drop off?

822
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,159
And like when is it now permissible to like eat

823
00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:47,119
this thing? It's like, I don't know. I mean, I

824
00:37:47,159 --> 00:37:48,639
may have to sit down and reflect it just it

825
00:37:48,679 --> 00:37:51,280
does seem like an unreasonable task for me to like

826
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,599
think about traits that I don't normally really think about

827
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,639
when my in my daily life and then do it.

828
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,320
But I think if once upon, once upon reflection, like yeah,

829
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,800
you could actually show that person that they're completely inconsistent.

830
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,119
I think a lot of vegans do successfully do that.

831
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,280
I think they successfully show that people.

832
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, Michael, we do have other callers.

833
00:38:12,039 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 2: I do have one last question for you.

834
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: I think it's fair play for me to ask this,

835
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,199
given we've given you all these answers.

836
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 2: What is your religious belief.

837
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:23,599
Speaker 4: I'm an atheist.

838
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: Okay, well there you go, atheist and vegan. Well, thanks

839
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,559
for calling in. I really do appreciate it. It is

840
00:38:31,679 --> 00:38:34,679
it is a topic that's interesting. I think we gave

841
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,039
it a lot of airtime you because I think you

842
00:38:37,119 --> 00:38:40,119
were so straightforward and honest and direct with us.

843
00:38:40,119 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 2: So I appreciate that.

844
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 1: Feel free to call back if you do have any

845
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,920
sort of religious conversations you'd like to have in the future.

846
00:38:48,079 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 2: Mike, I don't know.

847
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,199
Speaker 1: About you, but I've I've run into that call a bunch.

848
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:56,119
I'm reminded of the meme of the peta. I think

849
00:38:56,159 --> 00:39:00,079
it was peta billboard that has a string of you know,

850
00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:05,199
you know, chickens and cats and dogs and bunny rabbits

851
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,760
in some order, and then a horse and then a.

852
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,760
Speaker 2: Cow, and it says where do you draw the line?

853
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: And that somebody had spray painted a line just above

854
00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:18,880
horse and below cow and said right about there. And

855
00:39:19,039 --> 00:39:22,360
I find that both just haha funny, but also it

856
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,239
speaks to sort of like when the rubber hits the road.

857
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,599
Speaker 2: I think that's how most people go about that issue, is.

858
00:39:27,559 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: They're like, you know what, instinctually, I've been either indoctrinated

859
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,400
into a society or instinctually or a combination of a

860
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,119
bunch of things, that is about where I draw the line.

861
00:39:37,119 --> 00:39:39,320
And if you want to change somebody's mind, you got

862
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,239
to do the hard work, which I think Michael is doing,

863
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,119
which is going to talk to a bunch of individual people.

864
00:39:44,159 --> 00:39:47,119
Speaker 2: But this show, I think, I actually, yeah, I really,

865
00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:47,760
I yeah.

866
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 3: I don't think we'd like any issues with with with

867
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,639
with what he came, except for like the maybe initial

868
00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:55,239
trying to discuis him. Yeah, yeah, but I will say yeah,

869
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:56,880
like that is the way you would do that. And

870
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,239
I know vegans that are very successful at you know,

871
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,400
running name the trade or something like that and getting

872
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,199
people to I mean, they might not turn to vegans,

873
00:40:05,199 --> 00:40:08,239
but they It's hard for me to believe that person

874
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,119
didn't walk away going like, ah shit, maybe I am

875
00:40:10,119 --> 00:40:12,039
a little inconsistent. I gotta figure this out or whatever,

876
00:40:12,039 --> 00:40:14,440
and that's good. Yeah, maybe that's why I avoid that.

877
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:15,840
Maybe I don't want to. I don't want to be

878
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,440
I don't want to like have my own inconsistencies appear

879
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:19,000
in front of me.

880
00:40:19,119 --> 00:40:21,559
Speaker 1: But you know, I've had my own evolution as well,

881
00:40:21,599 --> 00:40:25,840
Like I no longer will eat any eggs that aren't

882
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,960
certified as being you know, range fed chickens. Like fighting

883
00:40:31,039 --> 00:40:33,639
factory farming is a step along the way, and I'm

884
00:40:33,639 --> 00:40:36,360
in favor of that through regulation and laws and all

885
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,000
of that stuff. Do I think we should blow up

886
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,440
farmers who are doing factory farming. No, I think we

887
00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:46,320
need to educate, vote into office people who were willing

888
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,039
to regulate and overcome the farm lobby. And yes, it

889
00:40:50,079 --> 00:40:52,800
will make that type of agriculture more expensive, but we

890
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,159
should also invest in science to counteract that and maybe

891
00:40:55,159 --> 00:40:56,719
we can produce lab eggs and make it.

892
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be great. All right, great.

893
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: We have a few announcements. We also have other callers.

894
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,400
We do have lines open. If anybody's interested in calling,

895
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,199
please do give us a call the numbers at the

896
00:41:09,199 --> 00:41:12,079
bottom of our screen. Love to talk to you about

897
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,519
anything related to religion and critical thinking, separation, church and state.

898
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,159
So my announcements are first, please like this video and

899
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,559
subscribe to the channel. It's one of the ways that

900
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,920
our word can get out. The more likes we have,

901
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,920
the more comments we have, the more engagement the algorithm

902
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,239
will see, and the more times this will be suggested

903
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,840
to somebody who might be curious about it. If you

904
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,840
enable them notifications. All of that really does help. And

905
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,719
another way to help support is by sending in superchats.

906
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,920
So if you do want to send in super chats,

907
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,079
and that's a YouTube feature. By the way, I should

908
00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:47,880
note we also are now streaming live this show on

909
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,559
TikTok as well, so you're also able to try to

910
00:41:51,559 --> 00:41:53,639
get in a call from TikTok as well. But if

911
00:41:53,679 --> 00:41:55,480
you are on YouTube, you can send us at super

912
00:41:55,559 --> 00:41:57,519
chat and that will help us. We will try to

913
00:41:57,559 --> 00:41:59,920
read as many as we can. Also, if you're in

914
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,599
in the Austin area, you can follow us on meetup

915
00:42:03,639 --> 00:42:06,599
and keep up with community events events. You can see

916
00:42:06,639 --> 00:42:11,000
what's going on at tiny dot cc slash ACA meetup.

917
00:42:11,079 --> 00:42:13,840
That's like the America Atheist Community of Austin Meetup.

918
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 2: ACA meetup.

919
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,639
Speaker 1: Things like philosophy under the Stars, game nights, coming down

920
00:42:20,679 --> 00:42:22,920
to the studio to watch broadcasts, and more.

921
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 2: You can do all of that. I have been to

922
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,840
the studio. I met Mike there. It was great. We

923
00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:29,320
did it for the back Cruise. It's a great group

924
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,360
of people. We did it for the We did it

925
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:32,800
on the back cruise.

926
00:42:33,039 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 3: We did it on the back crew. Hey, I get

927
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:37,679
spicy apparently right.

928
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: Join our weekly watch parties at the Free Thought Library

929
00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:46,719
on Sundays four excuse me, the live viewings of not

930
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,800
only this show, The Atheist Experience, but also Talk Heathen.

931
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,840
That's every Sunday and the doors open at noon and

932
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:58,039
it's a great place for community building. Next we have oh,

933
00:42:58,119 --> 00:43:00,400
this is my favorite part. You beat me to it.

934
00:43:00,599 --> 00:43:02,960
The crew say, I'll put it back up. Put it

935
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,000
back up, Put up the crew. We want to send

936
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,880
a big thank out to you, the crew who put

937
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,159
this show together every week.

938
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:10,679
Speaker 2: You can see here we've got.

939
00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: Video operators, audio operators, note takers, call screeners.

940
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 2: Chat moderator Tim Oh and then.

941
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, Tim, I can't I can't say enough about how

942
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,760
much they help. You may think that every week that's

943
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,320
just some sort of pro form of thank you that

944
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:25,960
we throw out.

945
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,159
Speaker 2: It is not just today.

946
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,079
Speaker 1: Before the call, they were solving problems like Mike a

947
00:43:32,159 --> 00:43:34,400
Mike issue on j Mike and whether or not I

948
00:43:34,639 --> 00:43:37,840
was centered, and whether or not Mike hold open would

949
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,360
meet their standards. Like we are having this conversation with

950
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:46,280
the crew right like two face or whatever. He had

951
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,000
his lamp all on one side and it looked like

952
00:43:48,119 --> 00:43:49,679
we were filming a hostage video.

953
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 2: We're so useless. We're so useless.

954
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,519
Speaker 3: Like Verne's like, hey, I just want to make sure man,

955
00:43:56,639 --> 00:43:58,800
like you got the you're talking into the mic or whatever.

956
00:43:58,840 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 2: He's like, you know you can hold up the.

957
00:44:00,679 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 3: I'm like yeah, I turn it, I face around him

958
00:44:03,039 --> 00:44:05,480
or whatever. Right, sorry for the extra noise. Audience that's

959
00:44:05,519 --> 00:44:06,679
probably probably should.

960
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: Have realized that we didn't hear it.

961
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 3: This is why we need people like vern Uh And

962
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,079
he's like, dude, you're yeah, you're facing your talking to

963
00:44:13,119 --> 00:44:13,599
the back of.

964
00:44:13,639 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 2: Your marks backwards. Yeah, any that sounds he turned it around?

965
00:44:18,559 --> 00:44:21,480
Yeah yah, so no we there. Yeah, we would get

966
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,079
on here and everyone be like, what the fuck happened

967
00:44:23,079 --> 00:44:25,320
to the show? Why does it sound and look weird?

968
00:44:25,639 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 4: Yeah?

969
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: So please do drop a thank to them in the

970
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:29,760
comments as well. It would really go a long way.

971
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,920
And if you want to be one of those sexy,

972
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,920
attractive crew members you just saw uh, be a guest

973
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,519
on one of her shows perhaps, or even become a host,

974
00:44:40,079 --> 00:44:42,840
you can contact us. We are always looking for people

975
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,360
interested in being a part of our productions. To ask

976
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,400
about any of that or more. You can always email

977
00:44:48,639 --> 00:44:53,119
volunteer at atheist typhoncommunity dot org to get involved.

978
00:44:54,119 --> 00:44:57,599
Speaker 2: How did you get involved, do you, Mike? That's a

979
00:44:57,679 --> 00:45:01,000
very good question. I did TikTok for a while.

980
00:45:01,159 --> 00:45:03,280
Speaker 3: I had like, I don't know, like thirty I had

981
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,159
gone up like a thirty thousand followers, and then I

982
00:45:07,199 --> 00:45:10,599
lost all of it because I made some Islam content

983
00:45:11,039 --> 00:45:14,079
and they had like discords I guess where they were

984
00:45:14,079 --> 00:45:15,760
just mass banning at the time.

985
00:45:17,119 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 2: Yep.

986
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,199
Speaker 3: Back then I was like, yeah, what the wild wild West?

987
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,800
I guess they say, right where you just you can

988
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,079
just get enough people and there you go.

989
00:45:25,199 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 2: And I I think I made a video about Ayisha

990
00:45:30,559 --> 00:45:32,880
that's probably worse. Yeah, I think it pissed off a

991
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:33,480
lot of people.

992
00:45:34,119 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 3: And so I lost that permament and that was like

993
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,599
fifteen hundred videos I think I did.

994
00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 2: So I was so burnt out.

995
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 3: I was like, I don't want to start making content again,

996
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:44,880
like that's just like the last thing I want to do.

997
00:45:45,519 --> 00:45:47,400
And so I reached out to the ACA because I

998
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,119
was like, you've watched this show growing up, and I

999
00:45:51,119 --> 00:45:52,639
want to be more like I'm more of a team

1000
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,679
guy than I am like the leader guy, you know,

1001
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,239
like I don't even want to be lead guitar when

1002
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,360
I'm playing in a band, even if I'm even.

1003
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 2: If I'm like object better than I'm like no, no,

1004
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,159
just let us be rhythm. We can both be lead

1005
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:03,639
or something.

1006
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,639
Speaker 3: I don't like that that much. So I reached out

1007
00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:08,840
through email. Was just like, you know, I'd love to

1008
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,159
be part of it. Here's some some of my background

1009
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,760
clips on X Y and Z show, so you you

1010
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,360
know know that I at least have some knowledge base

1011
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,000
and point a camera in the ratio, went through all

1012
00:46:19,039 --> 00:46:20,920
the processes made you know, they made sure I'm not

1013
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:21,719
a crazy person.

1014
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 2: They don't know yet, but that's right.

1015
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,159
Speaker 3: And then playing the long con, they invited me back,

1016
00:46:27,199 --> 00:46:29,039
and I just remember Greg was just like.

1017
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: I did, like a.

1018
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 3: Truth wanted, and Greg was like, I go back in

1019
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,960
the studio and Greg's like the epistemology is why as

1020
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:38,679
any of my son.

1021
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 2: I was like, oh man, I'm home. This is great.

1022
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,039
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, well I'm glad you did. That's that's great.

1023
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,880
I've always enjoyed both listening to your calls as well

1024
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:50,760
as just chatting with you.

1025
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:51,159
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1026
00:46:51,199 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 3: I really really appreciate it. I appreciate I really appreciate you.

1027
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,119
I we have to move on because I can't take

1028
00:46:56,199 --> 00:46:59,760
the okay I get so I get so uncomfortable.

1029
00:47:00,679 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk to Debbie then.

1030
00:47:02,119 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: Debbie from Florida pronouns not given wants to know why

1031
00:47:06,519 --> 00:47:13,320
religious people are so pushy about proselytizing. So let's let

1032
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,280
me see if I can get her up into the

1033
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,360
call line. Here, here we go. So, Debbie, are you

1034
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:19,800
with us? Is that what you want to tell us?

1035
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:20,639
Speaker 2: What you want to talk about?

1036
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 8: Well, I've been an atheist for several years, and I've

1037
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:27,880
also been a fan of the show for several.

1038
00:47:27,639 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 9: Years, and as an atheist, I don't go around trying

1039
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,760
to convert people to change the way they you know,

1040
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:39,679
religious people, to change the way they think.

1041
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,519
Speaker 10: Uh, you know, I have respect for them, even though

1042
00:47:43,559 --> 00:47:45,840
I don't agree with this what I call.

1043
00:47:47,679 --> 00:47:52,559
Speaker 8: The science fiction belief. That's what religion is basically. And

1044
00:47:53,159 --> 00:47:56,119
I don't go to people's doors and you know.

1045
00:47:56,679 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 10: Knock on the door and try to convert them and

1046
00:47:59,519 --> 00:48:01,519
leave them literature.

1047
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 8: Like the Jehovah's Witnesses and like the Mormons.

1048
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:06,519
Speaker 9: Uh.

1049
00:48:06,679 --> 00:48:11,079
Speaker 10: I have been approached in like a parking lot when

1050
00:48:11,119 --> 00:48:13,440
I'm just walking to my car, minding my own business,

1051
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,039
and somebody comes up to me and tries to hand

1052
00:48:16,079 --> 00:48:21,280
me this this religious literature, and you know, starts the

1053
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,119
religious bullshit.

1054
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 8: Pardon my language, but you're good.

1055
00:48:25,519 --> 00:48:31,519
Speaker 2: We're past the two minute marker. Yeah, yeah, Google doesn't care, so, uh, you.

1056
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 10: Know, like, why are they so determined to change people

1057
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,280
and convert.

1058
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,280
Speaker 8: Them to really just thinking I don't get it.

1059
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,519
Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you, Graham, you're a former You're a

1060
00:48:44,519 --> 00:48:45,679
former believer, right.

1061
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: I actually was not officially a form of believer. I

1062
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,039
was about to ask you the same way that's right.

1063
00:48:51,079 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 2: We were.

1064
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 3: We were we talked to us. We were like cradle atheists, right,

1065
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,320
we're like the only time. Yeah, I feel like it's

1066
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,679
the kind of thing. It's enough compared to everybody else.

1067
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: There was a period where I was in elementary to

1068
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,880
middle school where I attended.

1069
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:07,079
Speaker 2: My dad was in the Navy.

1070
00:49:07,079 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 1: We're in Charleston, South Carolina, and we got this is

1071
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,159
back in the early seventies, midst I guess late seventies

1072
00:49:14,159 --> 00:49:19,159
if it's middle school, where South Carolina public schools were

1073
00:49:19,159 --> 00:49:21,880
like forty ninth in the nation, right above Mississippi. So

1074
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,000
we got we tested into and got scholarships to go to.

1075
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:27,559
Speaker 2: A private school.

1076
00:49:27,599 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: But like most places in America, most private schools are religious.

1077
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,559
So I went to a religious school, but it was

1078
00:49:33,559 --> 00:49:35,400
Episcopalia and it wasn't very.

1079
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:37,280
Speaker 2: Dramatic.

1080
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,559
Speaker 1: We had chapel once a week. My parents were not

1081
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,480
very religious. They might have religious beliefs, but they didn't

1082
00:49:44,639 --> 00:49:48,239
take us to church regularly. And when I was asked

1083
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,840
then at that age, do you believe there's a God?

1084
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,440
I probably would have said yes, but that would have

1085
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,079
been out of like that's what surrounds me.

1086
00:49:56,159 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 2: I hadn't really put any sort of thought into it.

1087
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: And then as soon as I started kind of thinking

1088
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,000
about it and taking science and think using critical thinking,

1089
00:50:03,039 --> 00:50:05,760
I was like, well, this doesn't make sense. I actually thought.

1090
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,440
I remember thinking at some point there's got to be

1091
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,199
something I'm missing. I need you need to go read

1092
00:50:10,199 --> 00:50:12,639
this Bible stuff because all these adults really believe this.

1093
00:50:13,159 --> 00:50:15,079
And then when I eventually did read the Bible, I'm like,

1094
00:50:15,599 --> 00:50:17,079
that's it. Where's the big secret?

1095
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:17,519
Speaker 2: Oh?

1096
00:50:17,599 --> 00:50:20,519
Speaker 1: It really is just nothing. So that's where I come from.

1097
00:50:20,559 --> 00:50:21,599
So how about you, J Mike?

1098
00:50:24,679 --> 00:50:26,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mind is a weird thing.

1099
00:50:26,119 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 3: It's I guess sand It's like Sandwich atheists, like atheist,

1100
00:50:29,599 --> 00:50:32,199
weird spiritual you know, and.

1101
00:50:32,159 --> 00:50:35,039
Speaker 1: Then you're psycho psychedelic stuff you were talking about earlier.

1102
00:50:35,159 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's a weird thing. I was like fourteen.

1103
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:43,760
I I found like a was it why why doesn't

1104
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:44,800
God heal amputees?

1105
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 2: Dot com? Or something? Oh? That site did so much

1106
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:48,239
for me.

1107
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 3: Absolutely an evil Bible dot com yep. And yeah, just

1108
00:50:53,519 --> 00:50:56,760
there was some like like I guess the person running the.

1109
00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:00,320
Speaker 2: Side they had like the milk jug prayo, the milk juggy.

1110
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, the analogy you have all this kind of write

1111
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,039
ups on the page and the other guy, and it

1112
00:51:04,079 --> 00:51:08,039
was they were so good yea point, it was as

1113
00:51:08,079 --> 00:51:10,159
like a fourteen year old kid, you know, you're just like,

1114
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,599
you know, wide eyed, like what And I wasn't like,

1115
00:51:13,639 --> 00:51:16,480
you know, my parents are Catholic or you know, not

1116
00:51:16,639 --> 00:51:19,079
super probably similar to your situation.

1117
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:20,559
Speaker 2: They never took me to church I had.

1118
00:51:20,599 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 3: I've said this on the show a million times, and

1119
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:23,840
I'll say it a million more. My parents gave me

1120
00:51:24,039 --> 00:51:26,719
like the most freedom that's like possible, Like you couldn't

1121
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:31,079
get more freedom from religious parents than I'm very blessed

1122
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:36,480
so to speak, right, yes, yeah, and it's well, let

1123
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,239
me ask you then, like fuck me for a second.

1124
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:43,159
Do you not feel like you like so less clouded

1125
00:51:43,199 --> 00:51:45,360
on these types of time. I don't want to have

1126
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,440
us both come off as like conceded, like we can

1127
00:51:47,519 --> 00:51:50,800
think properly. And doesn't it feel like when you talk

1128
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,920
to people who are like had this going through their deconversion,

1129
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,199
it's almost so foreign to you because of the freedoms

1130
00:51:57,199 --> 00:51:59,360
that you've been given, like you didn't have that roadblock.

1131
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,119
I don't know what was your experience like with that.

1132
00:52:01,159 --> 00:52:02,800
I'm actually just genuinely interested.

1133
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,280
Speaker 10: I was raised without religion.

1134
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 2: Oh oh you were raised?

1135
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 1: Oh okay, so I guess then all I can report

1136
00:52:14,039 --> 00:52:16,960
is what i've heard a friend's family say and what

1137
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,719
I've read. So I break it down into three categories. First,

1138
00:52:21,599 --> 00:52:25,559
you have to put your mindset into somebody who actually

1139
00:52:25,599 --> 00:52:27,440
believes this stuff. Like I said, when I was like

1140
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,480
eleven and somebody asked me as their god, I probably

1141
00:52:30,519 --> 00:52:33,039
would have said yes, my brother was definitely from cradle.

1142
00:52:33,079 --> 00:52:35,119
He's like, no, that's crazy. But I probably would have

1143
00:52:35,119 --> 00:52:37,840
said yes, but I wouldn't have cared. But I think

1144
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:39,800
you have to put your fun nine further into it

1145
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,760
as to somebody who has been told from the cradle,

1146
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:45,519
there's a god. He's the reason you're here, he's the

1147
00:52:45,559 --> 00:52:47,800
reason we're married. And if you don't do the right thing,

1148
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:49,239
you're going to go to the bad place. And if

1149
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:50,480
you do the good thing, you're going to go to

1150
00:52:50,519 --> 00:52:52,440
the good place. And you need to go tell all

1151
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:54,239
of your friends about this. If you if that you

1152
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,920
hear that every day and it's preached to you from

1153
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,519
on high in a pulpit every Sunday, you're gonna believe it.

1154
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:01,599
Speaker 2: So that's first.

1155
00:53:01,599 --> 00:53:03,280
Speaker 1: You sort of just have to put your head into

1156
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,199
that that you have to accept that this is actually

1157
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:08,840
true to believers, right, I'm going to take them at

1158
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:10,960
their word. This is what they say they believe. And

1159
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:14,000
then two, you have to put yourself into a mind

1160
00:53:14,079 --> 00:53:18,360
of believing that and watching very good friends of yours

1161
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,559
say that they don't believe you, that they don't believe

1162
00:53:20,559 --> 00:53:22,760
in christian and you are certain that they're going to

1163
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:27,519
burn in hell forever, so you are desperate to save them,

1164
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,679
Like if I saw somebody. The analogy they'll use is

1165
00:53:30,679 --> 00:53:32,639
if there's a truck down coming down the street and

1166
00:53:32,679 --> 00:53:34,239
I can save you by pushing you out of the way.

1167
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:35,400
I'm going to push you out of the way, even

1168
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,920
if it skins your knee. That's what they think they're doing.

1169
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,280
And then the third thing I've heard from many people,

1170
00:53:41,519 --> 00:53:47,440
especially among evangelical Christians, is that the industry, and I'll

1171
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:52,719
call it that encourages the sharing of conversion stories that

1172
00:53:53,079 --> 00:53:57,199
people I've watched. There's a documentary called Jesus Camp. I'd

1173
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,000
strongly recommend you watch that. It's all about kids going

1174
00:54:01,039 --> 00:54:04,400
to summer school, summer camp, but it's Jesus Camp and

1175
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,800
it is It was eye opening for me as a

1176
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:12,119
cosigns horrible. It's you have to watch that documentary. But

1177
00:54:13,559 --> 00:54:16,559
they sit around and they will share stories about I

1178
00:54:16,679 --> 00:54:18,880
went out and I got three conversions this weekend done.

1179
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:23,119
Here's Debbie she's attending now. And that reportedly from people,

1180
00:54:23,159 --> 00:54:24,960
And this is not just from this movie. From what

1181
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,360
I've read, is a form of a high, like that

1182
00:54:28,519 --> 00:54:31,559
moment when you save somebody, you know several things if

1183
00:54:31,599 --> 00:54:34,280
you really really really believe you just save somebody from hell.

1184
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:36,679
Even if you don't really really really believe, but you

1185
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,360
really believe, you know that you're gonna go back and

1186
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:43,599
you're gonna get positive reinforcement from your parents, from your

1187
00:54:43,679 --> 00:54:48,199
pastor from your peers. It's almost like the snotty little

1188
00:54:48,199 --> 00:54:50,159
girl who comes in and did all her homework. You

1189
00:54:50,199 --> 00:54:52,199
come in and you're like, I save three people, and

1190
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:53,480
here's one of them to testify.

1191
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:55,159
Speaker 2: Praise the Lord.

1192
00:54:55,519 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 1: Debbie is saved three people, and you're gonna get that

1193
00:54:59,079 --> 00:55:01,760
positive feedback. So it's just like a high high.

1194
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:02,599
Speaker 2: It really is.

1195
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,039
Speaker 1: So I don't know if you've heard anything else beyond

1196
00:55:05,079 --> 00:55:07,079
that mic, but that, to me is what it's been

1197
00:55:07,079 --> 00:55:07,800
explained to me.

1198
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 3: Is I'm very very I don't know, do I want

1199
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,079
to get pissed off though, like I need to stop.

1200
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 2: It's reality.

1201
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 3: Like we talked about the beginning of this show, I

1202
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:19,119
just kind of sometimes want to turn my fucking head.

1203
00:55:19,159 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 1: But yeah, i'd watch it. Jesus Camp is really good

1204
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,760
to watch. It's I used to think it was like, oh,

1205
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:28,679
they found the craziest camp, and then I did read

1206
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:30,000
and I'm like, no, this is fairly.

1207
00:55:30,559 --> 00:55:32,280
Speaker 2: I get a lot of my.

1208
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 3: Like experience of people's deconversions or that through like people

1209
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,440
that are willing to talk about it, going through it

1210
00:55:41,559 --> 00:55:42,960
or have had gone through it.

1211
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:43,519
Speaker 2: Right, So.

1212
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,519
Speaker 3: It's it's always so still so foreign to me that mindset.

1213
00:55:50,199 --> 00:55:52,239
It's like it's like I wish I could peer in,

1214
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:52,880
but also like.

1215
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, I don't no, no, no, I

1216
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:56,679
don't want it for a second.

1217
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 1: I'm with I'm with it, I want to do it,

1218
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,280
and I don't want to bring it back necessarily to

1219
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:04,960
the top of the show. But because of things like

1220
00:56:05,519 --> 00:56:09,360
my cold open where the kids that went to Jesus

1221
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:13,320
Camp are now in the fucking Pentagon telling soldiers that

1222
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,960
they're on a divine mission to bring about the end

1223
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,320
of the world. So I can't put my head in

1224
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,320
the sand. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but like, no, no,

1225
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,599
that's I think there's a connection. So I think Debbie's

1226
00:56:24,639 --> 00:56:27,320
onto something. What are your thoughts at Debbie on have

1227
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:29,360
you heard from other people anything other than what we've

1228
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:29,960
said so far?

1229
00:56:30,199 --> 00:56:33,119
Speaker 10: Well, what you said makes a lot of sense.

1230
00:56:33,159 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 8: They think they are trying to save me, and you know,

1231
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,400
I never realized that before. But what I say to

1232
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,159
these people because I'm not going to share my beliefs

1233
00:56:43,599 --> 00:56:46,559
on religious beliefs with these people because you.

1234
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,159
Speaker 10: Know, if I don't want them to, then I can't

1235
00:56:48,199 --> 00:56:48,480
do it.

1236
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 8: So what I say to them is just please keep

1237
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:52,599
your religious.

1238
00:56:52,119 --> 00:56:53,199
Speaker 10: Beliefs to yourself.

1239
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 2: That's what I say.

1240
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 8: And I also say, there's Madeline Murray O'Hare, there's freedom

1241
00:56:59,159 --> 00:57:03,199
from religion, there's freedom of religion, and there's freedom from religion.

1242
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,880
So please keep your religious beliefs to yourself. And that's all.

1243
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:07,840
That's all I say.

1244
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:09,199
Speaker 2: And gotcha.

1245
00:57:10,039 --> 00:57:13,039
Speaker 1: Well, let's turn it around on you. Let's say, yeah,

1246
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:22,079
you had you had a friend that was feeding their

1247
00:57:22,159 --> 00:57:26,239
baby a small amounts of drain cleaner every day. Wow,

1248
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:31,920
And you went to that friend and you told them, dude,

1249
00:57:32,239 --> 00:57:34,760
look at all the evidence. You're gonna kill your baby,

1250
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,800
You're gonna give them brain damage, whatever, This is very unhealthy.

1251
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,239
And they turned to you and they said, please keep

1252
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,800
your religious beliefs to yourself. Would you feel compelled to

1253
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,519
keep talking to them a little bit and try to

1254
00:57:46,519 --> 00:57:47,800
find a way to open their eyes?

1255
00:57:48,079 --> 00:57:52,639
Speaker 8: Yes, I would, because feeding uh drain cleaner?

1256
00:57:52,719 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 9: You said, uh, that that is?

1257
00:57:55,079 --> 00:57:58,559
Speaker 2: That is facts that it will it will argue so

1258
00:57:58,719 --> 00:58:01,199
is so is the point that your going to hell

1259
00:58:01,519 --> 00:58:02,199
in their mind.

1260
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:04,239
Speaker 1: I'm trying to give you the analogy of what it's

1261
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,679
like to them. They see you teaching your child not

1262
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:10,159
to believe in God, and that's like putting drain cleaner

1263
00:58:10,199 --> 00:58:12,320
in their blood. And so they're trying to save the

1264
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:14,960
baby and trying to save you. And it's just as

1265
00:58:15,039 --> 00:58:18,519
shocking or disturbing to them to see that and do

1266
00:58:18,719 --> 00:58:20,679
nothing about it as it would be for you to

1267
00:58:20,719 --> 00:58:23,400
see your friend feed their kid drain cleaner and not

1268
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,320
do anything about it, even if they said, oh, please

1269
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:31,199
keep your opinion to yourself. They they view it as fact.

1270
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,199
The fact that you don't view it as fact is

1271
00:58:33,239 --> 00:58:36,400
irrelevant to their point of view, right.

1272
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 8: Right, And unfortunately they believe that it's factual when it's

1273
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,119
complete bullshit.

1274
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 2: You know, that's the challenge of humanity, right.

1275
00:58:48,119 --> 00:58:51,719
Speaker 1: I used to work as an attorney for FDA regulatory law,

1276
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:53,960
and I had clients in China that were importing regular

1277
00:58:54,159 --> 00:58:56,119
regulated goods to the US, and I swear I have

1278
00:58:56,119 --> 00:59:00,960
a point here, they would I just realized, I've been

1279
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:02,760
looking at the notes and the images, and now at

1280
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:03,119
the camera.

1281
00:59:03,119 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 2: I apologize. I do I look like below the camera,

1282
00:59:06,039 --> 00:59:08,639
like your face or like ivert my eyes?

1283
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:09,119
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1284
00:59:11,239 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 1: I had clients in China all the time that were

1285
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,920
importing FDA regulated goods, so they I was not part

1286
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,000
of the FDA. I would argue against the FDAA even

1287
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,400
though I respect the FDA. But we had one that

1288
00:59:21,519 --> 00:59:24,199
sent me a device to review. It was a head massager.

1289
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:26,840
You put it on and massages electronic and high massages.

1290
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,519
But on the outside they had made all these claims

1291
00:59:29,559 --> 00:59:32,920
like it lowers your blood pressure and it cures glaucoma,

1292
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:35,559
and all of these medical claims that made it to

1293
00:59:35,559 --> 00:59:37,719
be classified as a medical device. And they had gotten

1294
00:59:37,719 --> 00:59:39,719
on the naughty list with the FDA, and they wanted

1295
00:59:39,719 --> 00:59:41,440
to be taken off the naughty list. And I was

1296
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,920
advising them on how to do that, and I told

1297
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,000
them what it would take, which is a lot of work,

1298
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:47,320
a lot of effort, a.

1299
00:59:47,239 --> 00:59:48,559
Speaker 2: Lot of time, and a lot of money.

1300
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 1: And they wrote me back and said, is there a

1301
00:59:51,639 --> 00:59:55,480
expedited fee we can pay to get around this? And

1302
00:59:55,559 --> 00:59:58,519
I knew right away that they were saying, Hey, who

1303
00:59:58,599 --> 01:00:02,079
do we bribe around for this? And I wrote them back, Oh, well,

1304
01:00:02,079 --> 01:00:04,800
there's no fee. Oh can we pay you? No, I

1305
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:06,440
can't do that. What can we do?

1306
01:00:07,039 --> 01:00:07,119
Speaker 5: What?

1307
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 1: Maybe we can pay more, Maybe we can pay you

1308
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:11,440
and the government. So I finally reached out to our

1309
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:17,199
employee in China, Shelley, and say, Hi, Shelley, if you're watching, Shelley,

1310
01:00:17,719 --> 01:00:18,760
what do I do about this?

1311
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:20,519
Speaker 2: Look at this whole email chain?

1312
01:00:20,599 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: And she looked at me and almost on this you

1313
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:25,760
could see her patting me on the head. She goes, Oh, Graham,

1314
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,400
in China, we have this thing called a bribe.

1315
01:00:29,239 --> 01:00:30,079
Speaker 2: As if I didn't know.

1316
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 1: And if you say no, it just means that the

1317
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,119
person hasn't offered enough yet. And so it raised this

1318
01:00:36,239 --> 01:00:39,920
point in my mind of if that is true to them,

1319
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,000
and it is true to me, that I don't accept

1320
01:00:42,039 --> 01:00:46,519
bribes in the US government won't accept bribes. Mostly, how

1321
01:00:46,559 --> 01:00:49,880
do we communicate If no, in their language means you

1322
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,800
haven't offered enough? How do I say really no other

1323
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,239
than just stop talking to them? And I think it

1324
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:59,119
relates to here. If they really, really really say this

1325
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,480
is true, then you saying it's not true is not

1326
01:01:01,519 --> 01:01:04,280
a way to communicate. And you saying as fairy tale

1327
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:07,239
or them if you don't think it's true, them saying, look,

1328
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:08,800
there's a Bible with a bunch of claims and it

1329
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:10,639
is not going to be How do we communicate with

1330
01:01:10,679 --> 01:01:14,039
each other? That's always fascinated me when that what you're

1331
01:01:14,039 --> 01:01:17,320
saying is literally treated as meaning the opposite or not true.

1332
01:01:17,679 --> 01:01:19,719
How do we get across that barrier? If you have

1333
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:21,840
figured that out, let me know. What are your thoughts?

1334
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:24,679
Speaker 2: Jame, Like, No, I think that's like really, yeah, that's

1335
01:01:24,719 --> 01:01:25,679
a good point. I mean.

1336
01:01:27,159 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 3: I was wondering where you were gonna go, and I'm

1337
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:30,039
not gonna lie.

1338
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:33,519
Speaker 1: It was literally no Ah, this guy is very good

1339
01:01:33,599 --> 01:01:35,440
negotiated Like no.

1340
01:01:37,159 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I don't know.

1341
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 3: I mean I because I think I echo what you

1342
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:45,639
said a lot. Is that Look, in their mind, this

1343
01:01:45,719 --> 01:01:49,440
is a fact to them. They think that they're doing

1344
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:52,760
the ultimate best. They're saving your soul. It's the most

1345
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:53,599
important thing they.

1346
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:54,639
Speaker 2: Could do, and they believe that.

1347
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 3: So puts you in this real weird gray area of like, well,

1348
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,239
they're not intentionally like doing something to go out of

1349
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:02,480
the way to harm you. And I think that kind

1350
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:04,159
of gets misinterpreted sometimes like.

1351
01:02:06,199 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 7: That.

1352
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:08,639
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, hey, fuck off with your religious beliefs.

1353
01:02:09,039 --> 01:02:11,519
A lot of them genuinely like they just think they've

1354
01:02:11,519 --> 01:02:15,360
found the answer and I have. I don't get as

1355
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:17,400
I wish I got more people coming to my doors

1356
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:19,239
because I'd have the com for me in my scenerio.

1357
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 2: Is like I want to have a conversation with them.

1358
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:24,599
Speaker 3: I want them to walk away from the conversation just

1359
01:02:24,679 --> 01:02:26,159
like I like.

1360
01:02:26,199 --> 01:02:28,599
Speaker 2: Not not thinking just a little bit rattled.

1361
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, just not even like being not even being like

1362
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:36,199
aware that people think like that outside of their bubble,

1363
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:37,880
you know what I mean. I want them to like

1364
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,280
really marinate on it, and then every time they come

1365
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,480
up to someone else's door, they think twice before they

1366
01:02:43,559 --> 01:02:45,320
hit that knock, like is this gonna be another one

1367
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,519
that's gonna just you know, answer all my questions and

1368
01:02:48,559 --> 01:02:51,639
then feed me questions that I can't answer shit because

1369
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:54,000
that last experience was really bad for me. I couldn't

1370
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,079
answer all these questions. I mean, if it's if it's

1371
01:02:56,119 --> 01:03:00,199
interesting to you, I would write down some questions you have, Like, hey,

1372
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:03,840
when Jesus is chilling in the garden of simmecky right,

1373
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:07,480
I can't remember it, and no one's there to write.

1374
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 2: Down him crying, Like how do we know that? Do

1375
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:13,960
we know Jesus was crying? And why was he crying

1376
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:14,599
to himself?

1377
01:03:14,639 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 3: Like you know, like these kind of questions are the

1378
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:17,760
stuff that I want to ask like a bunch of

1379
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,519
these people that come up to my door or bring

1380
01:03:20,599 --> 01:03:23,760
it up, you know, but you know, maybe maybe that

1381
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:26,079
might be entertaining for you, and also it can help

1382
01:03:26,239 --> 01:03:28,639
like help them see something. It's just like if you

1383
01:03:28,639 --> 01:03:30,480
have these questions and you're like, man, I wonder what

1384
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:32,480
a Christian would say, it's like the coachy door. It's like, oh,

1385
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:34,679
ive been waiting for you, guys. I have a whole

1386
01:03:34,679 --> 01:03:36,599
bunch of shit that don't make sense to me. So

1387
01:03:37,199 --> 01:03:39,280
if you can answer a lot of these, I'll take

1388
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:40,079
that pamphlet from you.

1389
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 2: Deal, what are your thoughts? Their Debbie, what.

1390
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:46,119
Speaker 7: My thoughts?

1391
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 11: Yeah, well I like what Matt dyl Hunty says all

1392
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:56,800
the time. He says, the reason I don't believe in

1393
01:03:56,800 --> 01:04:01,400
in God is because there's no there's no evidence.

1394
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:06,559
Speaker 1: And there's insufficient evidence perhaps.

1395
01:04:05,719 --> 01:04:08,039
Speaker 3: Or in subvision that's been presented to you to leave it. Yeah,

1396
01:04:08,199 --> 01:04:10,960
for somebody, that's what I like to say. You know, Yeah,

1397
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:13,039
it hasn't been presented to me, but maybe you're the

1398
01:04:13,079 --> 01:04:13,639
one today.

1399
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:14,639
Speaker 2: It could be the call.

1400
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:19,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I have some I have some homework for you, Debbie.

1401
01:04:19,079 --> 01:04:21,119
I think they'll enjoy it. A was Jesus Camp If

1402
01:04:21,119 --> 01:04:23,079
you like that, that is that is a bit of

1403
01:04:23,119 --> 01:04:26,000
a negative, although I will say it was produced by

1404
01:04:26,119 --> 01:04:28,039
it was approved by at least if not produced by

1405
01:04:28,039 --> 01:04:29,800
the people running the camp. So they thought they were

1406
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:32,599
putting out like a good documentary, which should tell you something.

1407
01:04:32,639 --> 01:04:35,519
So watch Jesus Camp. There's another movie that you reminded

1408
01:04:35,559 --> 01:04:36,840
me of called Letting Go of God.

1409
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 5: Uh.

1410
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 1: It's a one woman show by Julius Sweeney who used

1411
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:44,559
to be on Saturday Night Live, and she tells the

1412
01:04:44,599 --> 01:04:47,400
story of her deconversion and I think it relates to

1413
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:50,079
what you're talking about. It starts with her story about

1414
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,840
the famous ding dong of the Mormons ringing the doorbell

1415
01:04:55,079 --> 01:04:59,320
her doorbell. Yeah, And they tell her her story and

1416
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:02,199
she's a Catholic and she thought, well, that's so silly.

1417
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,599
You know that this happened, and that happened. That's ridiculous.

1418
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:09,079
And for some reason that moment it clicked in her

1419
01:05:09,119 --> 01:05:13,159
brain to say, well, wait a second, I believe that

1420
01:05:13,199 --> 01:05:15,920
when I eat this wafer it literally turns into the

1421
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:19,440
body of Christ. That's kind of kooky, and I also

1422
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,159
believe this. And then she describes like this moment where

1423
01:05:22,199 --> 01:05:25,920
she says she was gonna take a moment after that,

1424
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,039
after thinking that through, she was going to take a

1425
01:05:28,079 --> 01:05:33,440
moment and put on the atheist sunglasses for just a

1426
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:36,360
second and look at the universe in the world, just

1427
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:39,239
for a second. She gave herself permission to do it,

1428
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:41,400
and when it happened, it was like a bolt of

1429
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:43,679
lightning that hit her because everything made sense. And then

1430
01:05:43,679 --> 01:05:45,159
she took them off, and it was very scary and

1431
01:05:45,159 --> 01:05:47,599
all that sort of stuff. It really spoke to me

1432
01:05:48,199 --> 01:05:50,400
about two things. One that's sort of how scary it

1433
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:54,119
is to deconvert, but two that even somebody ringing somebody's

1434
01:05:54,159 --> 01:05:57,679
doorbell can actually result in their deconversion.

1435
01:05:58,880 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 2: So there you go.

1436
01:06:00,719 --> 01:06:03,199
Speaker 1: But if you if you are looking at somebody explaining

1437
01:06:03,199 --> 01:06:05,199
how they deconverted in the ways that made sense to

1438
01:06:05,239 --> 01:06:07,679
them one person. That's another good one is called letting

1439
01:06:07,679 --> 01:06:12,000
go of God. Any any homework that you have for

1440
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:16,000
for her j Mike, any any content she might consume

1441
01:06:16,119 --> 01:06:18,840
or books she might read about trying to understand more

1442
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:20,480
of the mindset of people that.

1443
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:21,360
Speaker 2: On this one.

1444
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,000
Speaker 3: I really on this one, I really don't with the like,

1445
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,760
this is like the me and Debbie have the same

1446
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:31,000
kind of vibe here with but like, I don't understand this.

1447
01:06:31,159 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 2: I wasn't part of this growing up. We're so divorced,

1448
01:06:34,199 --> 01:06:34,559
you know, we.

1449
01:06:34,519 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 3: Don't have that intimate type of relationship that a lot

1450
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:39,480
of other people have, and it might just be a

1451
01:06:39,519 --> 01:06:42,920
fact that we could really never really understand it without

1452
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:45,719
like having, you know, live, have that lived experience.

1453
01:06:47,639 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 2: So I think I'm like with Debbie, I'm like, hey, Jesus,

1454
01:06:51,039 --> 01:06:52,559
I want to watch this. You know, I'm kind of

1455
01:06:52,559 --> 01:06:53,360
on Debbie's side.

1456
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:57,159
Speaker 3: I'm a caller right now, Graham, So you know, this

1457
01:06:57,239 --> 01:06:59,519
is this is this is this is actually good for me.

1458
01:07:00,159 --> 01:07:01,920
Speaker 2: I've been I've been kind of front row seat. Just

1459
01:07:02,039 --> 01:07:06,719
listen to you. So okay, okay, thoughts, Debbie, Yeah, so

1460
01:07:07,559 --> 01:07:10,039
thank you. Anything else you have any other questions for us? Yeah,

1461
01:07:10,039 --> 01:07:10,719
any other questions.

1462
01:07:11,079 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 5: That's good.

1463
01:07:11,519 --> 01:07:15,000
Speaker 8: You really shed some light on this and I appreciate.

1464
01:07:14,519 --> 01:07:15,119
Speaker 7: It very much.

1465
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I really appreciate you calling. Please feel free to

1466
01:07:19,199 --> 01:07:21,559
call back if you've had any good conversations or if

1467
01:07:21,559 --> 01:07:24,280
you've researched this more to try to understand and develop

1468
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:27,320
a better understanding of people who are doing this. Let

1469
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:29,039
us know if you find out anything new, because that

1470
01:07:29,039 --> 01:07:30,920
would be useful too, because we still run into them

1471
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:31,320
as well.

1472
01:07:32,039 --> 01:07:34,400
Speaker 3: And by the way, everyone, I'm not being rude and

1473
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:36,639
looking off to the side and now there, I'm just

1474
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:38,719
checking for like guests for quick TikTokers.

1475
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:42,760
Speaker 2: Yeah TikTok Yeah. All right, Debbie, you guys got to

1476
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:45,960
get me a new xpie stick. Oh oh, what is that?

1477
01:07:45,679 --> 01:07:47,320
That's that's that's the old XP.

1478
01:07:48,039 --> 01:07:50,960
Speaker 1: It's the it's the ax, it's the that's how much

1479
01:07:51,119 --> 01:07:52,679
every night you rub it for good luck?

1480
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:52,840
Speaker 5: Right?

1481
01:07:53,159 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 2: This is my pocket. I don't know, I just you know,

1482
01:07:56,320 --> 01:07:58,079
all right, Debbie, thanks so much for calling in.

1483
01:07:58,679 --> 01:07:59,679
Speaker 5: Good appreciate it.

1484
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:00,559
Speaker 7: I have a good age.

1485
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:04,119
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Sorry, maybe I apologize.

1486
01:08:04,159 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 3: I'm this is new for me, like look down at

1487
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:08,400
the phone and stuff.

1488
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 2: I'm just not as used to it. I haven't so

1489
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:11,280
I think I've missed.

1490
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:14,239
Speaker 3: I think I've missed guests, and I do apologize if

1491
01:08:14,239 --> 01:08:16,560
you're in the guest request at all.

1492
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 1: I think Greg has signaled to us in the chat

1493
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:21,000
that one of our calls is from TikTok, so you

1494
01:08:21,039 --> 01:08:24,079
may want to get some guidance from Greg there. While

1495
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:28,039
while you're doing that, I will say two other things

1496
01:08:28,079 --> 01:08:32,960
out to Debbie. Are other people interested in this concept? First,

1497
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:36,319
not everybody is a genuine believer that is coming to

1498
01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:40,159
convert you. In fact, three things. One is Mormon Stories podcast.

1499
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:45,000
On my podcast, I interviewed the host of Mormon Stories

1500
01:08:45,359 --> 01:08:46,359
like a year or two ago.

1501
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 2: His named Dylann Jeff or James stilln.

1502
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:56,279
Speaker 1: And on it he has long form deep dive interviews

1503
01:08:56,319 --> 01:08:59,479
with Mormons and or Mormon's on the edge and ex Mormons,

1504
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:02,319
and it's all all about deconversion and all that stuff,

1505
01:09:02,319 --> 01:09:05,520
and many many of them talk about not really believing,

1506
01:09:06,119 --> 01:09:09,439
but because of the society they live in where it's

1507
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,960
expected to you are expected to go out on a

1508
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:17,199
mission and serve and then come back, and then you

1509
01:09:17,239 --> 01:09:21,319
are much more eligible as a bachelor that you just

1510
01:09:21,359 --> 01:09:24,600
go and do it, even if the numbers are being

1511
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:27,680
fudged on the missions, or you don't really believe, or

1512
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:31,239
you're homesick, or you're being told that it's being strongly

1513
01:09:31,279 --> 01:09:35,159
implied that if you go home early, bad things will happen.

1514
01:09:35,359 --> 01:09:37,800
And even if they take your work permits and your

1515
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:41,520
passports away from you, one can question if you're trafficking labor,

1516
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:42,439
but we'll get.

1517
01:09:42,319 --> 01:09:42,880
Speaker 2: Into that later.

1518
01:09:43,279 --> 01:09:46,279
Speaker 1: So keep that in mind that not everybody and something

1519
01:09:46,279 --> 01:09:48,720
that sort of demonstrates that is I'm a fan of

1520
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:51,000
musical theater, so if you haven't seen it, I highly

1521
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:54,359
recommend the Book of Mormon musical written by the guys

1522
01:09:54,359 --> 01:09:58,520
who do South Park. The main character is not motivated

1523
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:02,119
truly by faith or exclusively by faith, but it is

1524
01:10:02,199 --> 01:10:05,319
more of the I'm the best one in the mission,

1525
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:07,720
I'm going to out to everybody else type of thing.

1526
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:12,840
And it's very funny. And then one other funny comment

1527
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:14,960
before we get to the caller. I was reminded when

1528
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:17,600
she started a call about like being prothetized to everywhere.

1529
01:10:18,239 --> 01:10:21,079
It's different than it was in the past. There was

1530
01:10:21,119 --> 01:10:25,920
a regulation that was passed that banned solicitation in airports,

1531
01:10:26,239 --> 01:10:28,199
and that didn't exist in the seventies.

1532
01:10:28,239 --> 01:10:29,680
Speaker 2: That came along in the eighties.

1533
01:10:30,239 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 1: Prior to that, you could be walking down through the

1534
01:10:34,039 --> 01:10:35,880
airport and have a whole bunch of people walk up

1535
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:37,439
to you and try to get you to give them money.

1536
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:39,520
It was so annoying that it was one of the

1537
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:41,840
main jokes in the opening of the movie Airplane.

1538
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:42,720
Speaker 2: If you've ever seen that.

1539
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:45,159
Speaker 1: Movie, where the guy's walking through and somebody's like, Hey,

1540
01:10:45,239 --> 01:10:48,239
would you like to have a flower for the Hippies?

1541
01:10:48,319 --> 01:10:50,520
Speaker 2: No thanks? And how about the Jews for Jesus, no thanks?

1542
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:51,880
How about this? And he's retaining it.

1543
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:54,079
Speaker 1: To a kung fu fight, fighting his way through the

1544
01:10:54,079 --> 01:10:55,600
airport just to get through everybody.

1545
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:57,760
Speaker 3: Every time we do a show, we always end up

1546
01:10:58,079 --> 01:11:00,399
back on Airplane. Airplane, because I think that's one of

1547
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:03,239
both of our favorite movies, so we just like, somehow

1548
01:11:03,279 --> 01:11:06,800
get back. It's so good, it's so funny. I think, yeah,

1549
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:08,920
I told you about the Like the intro scene. I

1550
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:10,760
couldn't even get past like the beginning when he's just

1551
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:13,880
like like paging doctor Ham or whatever. I just as

1552
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:17,319
a kid, just that just doctor Ham or mister ham

1553
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:17,800
for what.

1554
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:19,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got the Mayo clinic.

1555
01:11:19,239 --> 01:11:21,399
Speaker 1: While I'm talking to Dake tr hiam and so he says, okay,

1556
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:23,279
give me ham On five, hold the Mayo.

1557
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:26,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, dude, I I for some reason as a kid,

1558
01:11:26,399 --> 01:11:30,600
like my parents played like as my friend's parents were like, you.

1559
01:11:30,479 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 2: Have to relax. Okay, you have to relax. You're trying

1560
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:36,239
to watch the movie. It's funny. It's not that funny anyway. Great,

1561
01:11:36,319 --> 01:11:37,439
all right, do we have a TikTok?

1562
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:38,079
Speaker 12: We do?

1563
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:41,720
Speaker 3: I believe this is an old friend. I believe uh

1564
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:43,840
oh for TikTok purposes?

1565
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:47,680
Speaker 2: Are you over eighteen years old? Oh?

1566
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:50,319
Speaker 6: I'm I apologize.

1567
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:58,359
Speaker 3: Hey j Mike, Hey brother told before, we've talked before.

1568
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:01,439
We're homies, okay, come on, yeah, well yeah we're friendly.

1569
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:06,560
Speaker 2: So I don't know how Oh yeah, I miss well hey,

1570
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:08,079
it's a good time to say I miss you. Come

1571
01:12:08,119 --> 01:12:12,279
around more often? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1572
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:16,079
Speaker 13: How's things going? I mean we're not in a we're

1573
01:12:16,079 --> 01:12:17,000
not at an airport.

1574
01:12:17,119 --> 01:12:20,600
Speaker 2: I hope you're you're live on the air right now

1575
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:23,479
on XP on YouTube. You gotta you gottah people. You

1576
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:26,960
got a bunch of people watching your chapter. Well, all right,

1577
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:29,560
so I've got I've deduced that your name is Chapter

1578
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:33,079
and you're a friend of J Mike. How you doing? Yeah, thank.

1579
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:35,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1580
01:12:36,079 --> 01:12:38,359
Speaker 7: I I go by the name Chapter. I've done it

1581
01:12:38,399 --> 01:12:41,680
for ten years or so. I never use a different name.

1582
01:12:42,199 --> 01:12:42,720
Speaker 2: This is me.

1583
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 13: I do not use even when I'm banned. I don't

1584
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:52,520
use other aults. This is me early in the morning.

1585
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, Chapter, we're gonna, we're gonna. We're gonna move

1586
01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:59,279
to a guest because we're limited on time. But I

1587
01:12:59,319 --> 01:13:00,159
saw you said.

1588
01:13:00,159 --> 01:13:01,520
Speaker 3: I don't know if you had a question or if

1589
01:13:02,079 --> 01:13:04,439
you're always amusing, so I figured we'd all get a laugh.

1590
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:06,920
Speaker 2: Ye, yes, if anything, what question do you have for us?

1591
01:13:08,079 --> 01:13:14,239
Speaker 13: Okay, uh, what do you No?

1592
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:15,560
Speaker 6: I was gonna say something.

1593
01:13:16,159 --> 01:13:19,159
Speaker 3: No, don't I know what you're gonna say.

1594
01:13:19,159 --> 01:13:21,239
Speaker 2: Don't say it. I don't know what you're gonna say.

1595
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:25,439
Speaker 13: No, No, I was gonna talk about, you know, what's

1596
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:29,279
the best theory that you've heard from people who believe?

1597
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:35,600
Speaker 2: Because you know I'm an unbeliever. Okay, Well, well sorry,

1598
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:36,640
let me just wake you up.

1599
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:36,920
Speaker 5: Brother.

1600
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:44,199
Speaker 2: Yes, all right, well why don't you take you we're

1601
01:13:44,279 --> 01:13:47,560
all off. Yeah, well we'll give you the answer. We'll

1602
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:49,960
get you we'll get you off chapter. I do miss you, brother,

1603
01:13:50,199 --> 01:13:51,800
Thank you, thank you so much.

1604
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:53,399
Speaker 6: Great to talk to you, have a great.

1605
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:55,800
Speaker 2: Nice to meet you. It is a good question.

1606
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:57,840
Speaker 1: We get that a lot actually, Like what do you

1607
01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:01,319
think the best if you're gonna steal ma'am? A religious

1608
01:14:01,319 --> 01:14:03,199
person's point of view? What do you think is the

1609
01:14:03,239 --> 01:14:06,560
best argument that has not convinced you? And I'm I

1610
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:08,520
waver between a few. Do you have one that you

1611
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:09,039
sort of go to?

1612
01:14:09,199 --> 01:14:10,760
Speaker 2: I just love chapter so much.

1613
01:14:11,239 --> 01:14:15,640
Speaker 3: So, Yeah, he's so every time I talked to him,

1614
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:17,960
he's like, wait, because he's like a completely different time zone.

1615
01:14:18,359 --> 01:14:19,760
Speaker 2: What is it? How was I going to ask? Is

1616
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:23,840
he New Zealander or Australian or maybe English? And I couldn't.

1617
01:14:24,279 --> 01:14:24,680
I should know.

1618
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:27,239
Speaker 3: I should be a better friend. He's a online friend,

1619
01:14:27,239 --> 01:14:28,359
but I should be a better friend.

1620
01:14:28,399 --> 01:14:28,720
Speaker 7: Jeez.

1621
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:31,239
Speaker 2: So I asked me that question because.

1622
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:34,239
Speaker 1: He's as if you're in a sealman a religious point

1623
01:14:34,239 --> 01:14:36,359
of view, what do you think the best argument is,

1624
01:14:36,399 --> 01:14:39,039
even if it's a loser in your eyes? What's the

1625
01:14:39,079 --> 01:14:43,560
best argument, however, you would measure best to argue for

1626
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:47,479
some sort of let's call it a supernatural being.

1627
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:51,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's gonna sound egotistical, but it's an argument that

1628
01:14:51,079 --> 01:14:51,720
I've come up with.

1629
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:54,720
Speaker 2: I don't think it works.

1630
01:14:55,279 --> 01:14:57,960
Speaker 1: This is your book. Your book is it's not a

1631
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:01,039
great one. But here's the solution that that I figured out.

1632
01:15:01,119 --> 01:15:04,680
Speaker 3: It takes a lot of like background knowledge on some things.

1633
01:15:06,439 --> 01:15:07,359
Speaker 2: Can you summarize it?

1634
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:08,199
Speaker 6: Oh?

1635
01:15:08,279 --> 01:15:08,520
Speaker 4: Man?

1636
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:09,399
Speaker 5: Not really?

1637
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:13,479
Speaker 3: I mean, do I have time to explain like extension

1638
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:16,199
and intention and co. I mean, most people like biology,

1639
01:15:16,239 --> 01:15:19,399
they'll know like co extensive traits and ride alongs and stuff.

1640
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:21,079
Speaker 2: But the idea is to.

1641
01:15:21,039 --> 01:15:23,720
Speaker 3: Take Jerry Fod's argument, which I don't think, you know,

1642
01:15:24,319 --> 01:15:27,279
I mean, I've struggled with this argument, but I think

1643
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:31,399
from the years of listening to different philosopher's responses and

1644
01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:33,680
thinking about it, you know, I don't hold the view

1645
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:36,439
like I used to as much. But he's an atheist philosopher.

1646
01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:40,000
He believes in evolution, but he doesn't accept natural selection.

1647
01:15:40,119 --> 01:15:42,359
I doesn't think it's like a predictive model. And so

1648
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:43,319
I came up with.

1649
01:15:43,279 --> 01:15:47,279
Speaker 2: This like idea with a buddy where we would like we.

1650
01:15:47,279 --> 01:15:49,600
Speaker 3: Basically use this argument and if the argument is successful,

1651
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:51,920
like you essentially the only thing that's going to give

1652
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:54,479
you the intentional context or what you need.

1653
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:56,560
Speaker 2: It's hard to I don't want to.

1654
01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:58,920
Speaker 3: Explain all this because it's kind to miss and bore people,

1655
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:03,880
But generally the idea is the best type of explanation

1656
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:06,239
that you would be able to go with. The most

1657
01:16:06,279 --> 01:16:09,840
probable would be an intentional cause of theism or a

1658
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:12,399
god or something like that. But it's not because that's

1659
01:16:12,439 --> 01:16:14,920
a very standard kind of thing that people just say.

1660
01:16:15,239 --> 01:16:18,560
Speaker 2: It's more of the meat in the sandwich.

1661
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:23,319
Speaker 3: That it's it's not a good argument, but it's the

1662
01:16:23,359 --> 01:16:24,279
most complicated.

1663
01:16:24,319 --> 01:16:26,800
Speaker 2: I guess it's like there's.

1664
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:28,800
Speaker 3: A lot there that if I ran this on an atheist,

1665
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:30,720
they'd be like, what the fuck I have to do?

1666
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:32,760
So I have to not that like they should be scared.

1667
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:36,119
But there's so much there. So it's probably the most

1668
01:16:36,159 --> 01:16:38,600
thought out that I've done for theism. And the reason

1669
01:16:38,640 --> 01:16:41,600
I prop that up over like other arguments is I

1670
01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:44,439
just don't genuinely don't find theistic arguments that good like ever,

1671
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:47,600
like I never do, so the kind of tongue in cheek,

1672
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:49,439
it's like this bullshit thing that me and my buddy

1673
01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:52,920
am Deer just kind of joked around about and then

1674
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:54,399
we did this whole thing. At the end, we were like,

1675
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:57,479
but scientific anti realism is true, which is this idea

1676
01:16:57,520 --> 01:17:00,520
that like, you know, we positive electrons. We don't look

1677
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:03,880
electrons don't really exist, but we posit them as like

1678
01:17:03,359 --> 01:17:06,399
theoretical postulates or something like that. So I was like,

1679
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:10,039
we could be scientific anti realists and at the end,

1680
01:17:10,239 --> 01:17:12,439
when we say God is the best explanation, we go

1681
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:15,359
but also scientific anti realism is true, and we thus

1682
01:17:15,359 --> 01:17:17,399
we we don't have to be committed to all of

1683
01:17:17,439 --> 01:17:21,119
our postulates actually existing, even though it gives us a better,

1684
01:17:21,359 --> 01:17:23,920
a potential better explanation. So it's kind of this weird

1685
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:27,399
flip where it was like atheism, you know, right, Yeah, No,

1686
01:17:27,640 --> 01:17:29,760
that probably wouldn't make sense to anybody, even if I

1687
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:31,239
explained it for like three hours.

1688
01:17:31,319 --> 01:17:35,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, flow charts and education. Yeah, it's a lot of it.

1689
01:17:36,079 --> 01:17:38,000
Speaker 3: It's a lot of like you have to spend a

1690
01:17:38,039 --> 01:17:41,439
lot of time reading like this guy's book to really

1691
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:44,439
understand what his argument is, and then then you'd have

1692
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:47,279
to listen to my dumb ass tacking on top of

1693
01:17:47,319 --> 01:17:50,119
that a whole bunch of other esoteric garbage.

1694
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:51,239
Speaker 2: Mainly designed to confuse people.

1695
01:17:51,319 --> 01:17:55,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think from my per I don't know

1696
01:17:55,560 --> 01:17:57,680
how to take the question sometimes when I say best,

1697
01:17:58,119 --> 01:17:59,399
I think mean most convincing.

1698
01:17:59,399 --> 01:18:02,159
Speaker 1: To me, versus is best, as in most effective at

1699
01:18:02,159 --> 01:18:04,840
converting people to your side of beliefs, as far as

1700
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:10,000
the latter believe it or not. I think the look

1701
01:18:10,039 --> 01:18:13,079
at the trees argument is the most effective at coning,

1702
01:18:13,199 --> 01:18:16,079
convincing the whole highest number of people, like, ye, just

1703
01:18:16,159 --> 01:18:18,119
look at it, And by that I mean look at

1704
01:18:18,119 --> 01:18:20,880
how complicated the universe is. It seems to be kind

1705
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:21,439
of fine.

1706
01:18:21,239 --> 01:18:24,600
Speaker 2: To reaction, kind of a thing. Yeah, oh you know what?

1707
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:28,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like that, like are you telling me that

1708
01:18:28,239 --> 01:18:30,319
every grain of sand and every ant if that was

1709
01:18:30,359 --> 01:18:31,039
out of position?

1710
01:18:31,079 --> 01:18:32,079
Speaker 2: And this that and the other thing.

1711
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:35,239
Speaker 1: It ignores the anthropic principle, ignores a lot of things

1712
01:18:35,239 --> 01:18:38,199
that sort of answer it. But as far as convincing people,

1713
01:18:38,479 --> 01:18:41,279
because so many people come to us and when we

1714
01:18:41,359 --> 01:18:44,279
say give us your best answer, a lot of them

1715
01:18:44,359 --> 01:18:46,239
end up with a basically a version of look at

1716
01:18:46,239 --> 01:18:49,359
the trees, I think that that seems to convince people.

1717
01:18:49,399 --> 01:18:52,720
But as far as I think what the best argument is,

1718
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:53,600
as far as like what.

1719
01:18:53,760 --> 01:19:00,800
Speaker 2: Should convince people, it's tough. It's tough. I don't say

1720
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:02,720
fine tuning. I'll be coming up.

1721
01:19:02,800 --> 01:19:05,840
Speaker 1: I don't know, like fine tuning's in there. But the

1722
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:08,079
problem is I've read too much on fine tuning and

1723
01:19:08,159 --> 01:19:10,279
know too much about it. I think, I mean, I

1724
01:19:10,359 --> 01:19:13,439
know enough on this religious point to realize that fine

1725
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:17,439
tuning is overstated in the public's eye. Like you hear

1726
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:21,399
about these distances. But it's sort of like saying, like, well,

1727
01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:23,520
if this was off by this many miles, well, that's

1728
01:19:23,560 --> 01:19:26,680
like saying Michael Jordan could still be a human if

1729
01:19:26,680 --> 01:19:28,239
he was seven hundred thousand months.

1730
01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:30,560
Speaker 7: I use this, Yeah, I.

1731
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:32,560
Speaker 2: Used this example. If you heard me use the Michael

1732
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:35,359
Jordan example on It's not like I may have gotten

1733
01:19:35,359 --> 01:19:36,680
it from you. I don't know, it's not I don't

1734
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:37,560
know if it's unique to me.

1735
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:40,079
Speaker 3: I think it's like Arvin ash or someone who does

1736
01:19:40,119 --> 01:19:41,079
a science channel.

1737
01:19:41,079 --> 01:19:43,760
Speaker 2: I think I lifted it from from Arvin.

1738
01:19:45,880 --> 01:19:46,159
Speaker 3: Where.

1739
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:48,960
Speaker 2: Man, I'm not the deep back in the memory. I'll

1740
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:49,800
probably mess it all up.

1741
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:53,039
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's like this this idea of when you

1742
01:19:53,119 --> 01:19:54,840
have like a certain thing like a I don't know

1743
01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:57,880
the mass of a neutrino or something is like ten

1744
01:19:57,960 --> 01:20:00,479
times thirty six to the whatever power or whatever, and

1745
01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:02,760
you change that factor or something by a little bit

1746
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:05,880
it's it's like whoa, but you realize that factor of

1747
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:08,720
like one is like you know the difference between it's

1748
01:20:08,720 --> 01:20:11,760
like me saying, like, you know, Michael Jordan is the

1749
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:14,920
perfect basketball player, and if he was you know, ten

1750
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:16,640
times whatever to the third.

1751
01:20:16,479 --> 01:20:18,000
Speaker 2: Instead of two, he wouldn't be.

1752
01:20:18,079 --> 01:20:20,399
Speaker 3: But it's like, yeah, when you analyze that, you're talking

1753
01:20:20,399 --> 01:20:22,920
about him being like eight hundred feet as opposed to

1754
01:20:23,640 --> 01:20:27,319
you know, six feet or five inches depending on which

1755
01:20:27,359 --> 01:20:30,039
you know, which way we go, And so really what

1756
01:20:30,079 --> 01:20:32,960
that signals is what are we using like kilograms, what

1757
01:20:33,079 --> 01:20:35,359
kind of measurement? Because that like a lot of this

1758
01:20:36,159 --> 01:20:40,119
changes when I go, yeah, he's ten to the twelve.

1759
01:20:40,359 --> 01:20:43,119
Speaker 2: My cat just walked by and that was a thing

1760
01:20:43,159 --> 01:20:47,039
that just happened apparently, you know.

1761
01:20:47,239 --> 01:20:50,479
Speaker 3: So like it's like I'm gonna have to come down now,

1762
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:53,720
like this dang it cat and now she wants to

1763
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:54,800
go out, so I'll have to get crude.

1764
01:20:54,920 --> 01:20:58,000
Speaker 2: There's your most convincing evidence for God. Yeah, that cat

1765
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:01,279
doesn't want me to about it. No, No, I think

1766
01:21:01,319 --> 01:21:02,199
I probably got it from you.

1767
01:21:02,239 --> 01:21:05,479
Speaker 1: This concept, Like it sounds convincing, and then you look

1768
01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:07,840
at the orders of magnitude that you're talking you're talking.

1769
01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:10,119
Speaker 2: Light here and inches. You know, it's like it could have.

1770
01:21:10,079 --> 01:21:14,760
Speaker 1: Changed by point one value or a whole order of magnitude,

1771
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:17,399
and you're you're, you, as the layman who's making this argument,

1772
01:21:17,439 --> 01:21:20,039
is treating that as a very small change, when in reality,

1773
01:21:20,039 --> 01:21:21,960
an order of magnitude is an order of man.

1774
01:21:22,039 --> 01:21:23,560
Speaker 3: And if you had the right like with the Michael

1775
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:26,880
Jordan example, if you have the right like measurement like

1776
01:21:26,920 --> 01:21:28,960
inches and it was off by even just five percent,

1777
01:21:29,039 --> 01:21:31,199
not only would Michael Jordan's still be one of the best,

1778
01:21:31,199 --> 01:21:33,399
like in the NBA would be one of the best,

1779
01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:35,920
and the analogy there being not only would we get

1780
01:21:35,960 --> 01:21:40,920
like you know, bestowing of mass in higgs field or whatever.

1781
01:21:42,119 --> 01:21:42,760
Speaker 2: It might it could be.

1782
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:46,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, like there's this like range that isn't really talked about.

1783
01:21:46,439 --> 01:21:48,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and that five.

1784
01:21:48,039 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 3: Percent with the Michael Jordan case, like he could still

1785
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:52,560
potentially be the best. So I think that analogy works

1786
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:55,159
really well. If you're someone that's not like me and

1787
01:21:55,199 --> 01:21:57,720
forgets that after a few years, I gotta go back, Well.

1788
01:21:57,920 --> 01:21:59,119
Speaker 2: It landed on me for sure.

1789
01:21:59,239 --> 01:22:02,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have different objections, I guess to fine tuning.

1790
01:22:02,479 --> 01:22:04,119
So I've kind of like put that one away because

1791
01:22:04,119 --> 01:22:06,199
there's just so many. I find fine tuning to be

1792
01:22:06,279 --> 01:22:08,439
one of the worst arguments for theism, and I know

1793
01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:11,920
most people think it's a good.

1794
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:15,000
Speaker 1: Fine tuning is in there as far as what people

1795
01:22:15,079 --> 01:22:17,720
think is good, Yeah, I don't credit it. And then

1796
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:21,880
the worst one, I think is just presuppositionalism, which is

1797
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:22,359
not an artist.

1798
01:22:22,359 --> 01:22:25,800
Speaker 3: Oh that's the worst one. There's not a worst one. Then,

1799
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:28,399
before you can know anything, you must know guys. Like

1800
01:22:28,479 --> 01:22:33,279
it's just it's like it's literally heads, I win, tails,

1801
01:22:33,319 --> 01:22:36,039
you lose, Like you the coin. There's no there's no

1802
01:22:36,079 --> 01:22:38,319
winning based on how it's like the coin that they

1803
01:22:38,319 --> 01:22:40,720
give you. It's like, you know, it's like, yeah, I'm

1804
01:22:40,760 --> 01:22:43,640
not gonna win by your lights, because if my answer

1805
01:22:43,920 --> 01:22:47,199
isn't a mirror to Christianity, then it's the wrong answer

1806
01:22:47,239 --> 01:22:48,159
every time to you.

1807
01:22:48,359 --> 01:22:52,159
Speaker 2: So I should never win. Yeah, I could never fucking win.

1808
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:55,479
Speaker 3: And instead of by the way, the easiest way to

1809
01:22:55,479 --> 01:22:57,840
deal with presuppers just go yeah, I understand that's what

1810
01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:00,439
you believe in the book that says a thing says

1811
01:23:00,439 --> 01:23:03,319
that thing, Yeah, can you demonstrate to me outside of that, like,

1812
01:23:03,359 --> 01:23:06,319
don't just presuppose it? Just fucking like, do something else

1813
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:09,880
And they'll and they'll just every without fail every time. Yeah,

1814
01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:11,840
but what do you believe? What do you what's what's

1815
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:12,439
what's up with you?

1816
01:23:12,560 --> 01:23:12,760
Speaker 4: Man?

1817
01:23:12,920 --> 01:23:15,760
Speaker 2: How you doing? You know, I'm concerned about you right now. Man,

1818
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:18,279
I'm not selfish. Shut the fuck up.

1819
01:23:19,119 --> 01:23:22,159
Speaker 3: Dog shit apologetics, absolute dog shit apologetics.

1820
01:23:23,079 --> 01:23:24,880
Speaker 1: So we do have another caller Before that, I wanted

1821
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:27,439
to get back to super chats. We did get a

1822
01:23:27,439 --> 01:23:31,720
super chat some strange person named Kelly Laughlin.

1823
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:33,800
Speaker 2: You may have heard of him.

1824
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:36,880
Speaker 1: He's with the ACA member for two years two dollars.

1825
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:42,159
He says, watch Truth Wanted Fridays at seven pm Central,

1826
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:46,399
Kelly paying to spam his own show on the ACA.

1827
01:23:46,439 --> 01:23:48,319
I do agree with him. You should watch it. It's

1828
01:23:48,359 --> 01:23:50,840
a great show for those of you I'm familiar with it.

1829
01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:53,239
It's expands the what do you believe in?

1830
01:23:53,319 --> 01:23:53,600
Speaker 2: Why?

1831
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:57,000
Speaker 1: Outside of just religion and starts talking about things like

1832
01:23:57,199 --> 01:24:00,920
bigfoot or anti vaxxers or anything that's truth claim and

1833
01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:04,439
belief and why you believe or don't believe things. It's

1834
01:24:04,439 --> 01:24:06,560
a very good show and they do sort of focuses

1835
01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:08,960
as you do the shows, they'll focus on the topics.

1836
01:24:09,800 --> 01:24:10,960
Speaker 2: Do you have time for another call?

1837
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:11,159
Speaker 4: There?

1838
01:24:11,279 --> 01:24:11,680
Speaker 6: J Mike.

1839
01:24:12,159 --> 01:24:14,039
Speaker 2: I can do a Yeah, I can do a short,

1840
01:24:14,520 --> 01:24:15,039
shorter one.

1841
01:24:15,039 --> 01:24:15,239
Speaker 5: I do.

1842
01:24:15,279 --> 01:24:17,680
Speaker 3: Okay, some things I gotta do. But if crew can

1843
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:21,600
just focus on Graham for a minute, I'm a cat's no,

1844
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:23,920
it's just scratching my the door to get out. And

1845
01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:25,720
all right, it's just gonna tear it's gonna tear up

1846
01:24:25,720 --> 01:24:26,199
my landlords.

1847
01:24:26,199 --> 01:24:26,520
Speaker 4: All right.

1848
01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:28,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna go talk to Pete.

1849
01:24:28,119 --> 01:24:32,439
Speaker 1: We have Pete from Michigan, no pronouns given, says wants

1850
01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:35,800
to talk the talk to the excuse me, wants to

1851
01:24:35,880 --> 01:24:39,920
ask the hosts about their beliefs, backgrounds and go from there.

1852
01:24:40,720 --> 01:24:43,520
Well that's not normally how this works, but I'm willing to.

1853
01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:46,119
Speaker 2: Give it a shot. Let's get him on. Pete. Can

1854
01:24:46,159 --> 01:24:48,960
you hear me? Is that what you want to talk about?

1855
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:51,000
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1856
01:24:51,039 --> 01:24:52,520
Speaker 7: Well I guess so.

1857
01:24:52,800 --> 01:24:54,399
Speaker 5: I you know I'm calling about.

1858
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:55,800
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, I don't.

1859
01:24:55,560 --> 01:24:57,479
Speaker 5: Even know why they call you guys. They see this,

1860
01:24:58,319 --> 01:24:59,800
they should call you Nancy.

1861
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:03,720
Speaker 2: I don't care about the label as much.

1862
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:07,039
Speaker 1: Arguing from dictionary definitions tends to be a loss for everybody.

1863
01:25:07,079 --> 01:25:10,920
So what I'll do is I'll just say what I

1864
01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:13,800
believe and the terms I'm going to use to describe

1865
01:25:13,800 --> 01:25:15,960
it and then we can actually talk about substance. So

1866
01:25:16,359 --> 01:25:19,760
the way I've heard it used typically online and around

1867
01:25:20,079 --> 01:25:22,039
and from the people I know who are atheists that

1868
01:25:22,079 --> 01:25:26,199
prefer to be called that are the If you answer

1869
01:25:26,239 --> 01:25:29,960
the question are you convinced there is a God? And

1870
01:25:30,000 --> 01:25:33,319
you answer that by saying no, I'm not convinced, then

1871
01:25:33,319 --> 01:25:35,800
we call that an atheist. That's what I would call

1872
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:40,600
an atheist, a without theists, theism a belief in a god,

1873
01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:45,319
so atheism. There's also anti theism, where you would answer

1874
01:25:45,399 --> 01:25:48,439
the question are you convinced there is not a God?

1875
01:25:48,560 --> 01:25:51,680
And you say yes to that, that would be what

1876
01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:54,640
I would call an anti theist. Now that's not what

1877
01:25:54,680 --> 01:25:57,880
I am. I don't assert that. I don't claim that

1878
01:25:57,920 --> 01:25:59,640
I'm convinced that there's not a God.

1879
01:26:00,399 --> 01:26:00,600
Speaker 5: Uh.

1880
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:02,399
Speaker 2: I just am not convinced that there is one.

1881
01:26:02,439 --> 01:26:05,279
Speaker 1: I am the jury member who has gone into the

1882
01:26:05,359 --> 01:26:07,600
jury box and is a waiting trial or is sitting

1883
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:11,880
in trial, and we haven't found God guilty of existing yet,

1884
01:26:11,920 --> 01:26:14,520
but I'm still open minded and waiting for the prosecutor

1885
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:16,920
to give me more evidence. So that would be for

1886
01:26:17,039 --> 01:26:21,800
me atheism, anti theism, non theism. I don't I don't

1887
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:23,640
use that, so I would suggest we don't use it

1888
01:26:23,680 --> 01:26:25,199
for this call. J Mike, would you have any other

1889
01:26:25,239 --> 01:26:27,199
caveats to definitions before we get going.

1890
01:26:28,439 --> 01:26:30,319
Speaker 2: I mean when I say I'm an atheist.

1891
01:26:30,039 --> 01:26:33,039
Speaker 3: I just mean that I think gods and gods, gods

1892
01:26:33,039 --> 01:26:34,479
and goddesses do not exist.

1893
01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:37,840
Speaker 1: So so is that you're like, you're you what I

1894
01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:41,159
would define as an anti theist, that you know that

1895
01:26:41,199 --> 01:26:43,000
they don't exist or you just convinced.

1896
01:26:43,119 --> 01:26:45,359
Speaker 3: I guess I don't have the same usage of which

1897
01:26:45,359 --> 01:26:47,000
is this is it doesn't really matter, like you can

1898
01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:48,560
have this usages right, And I think this is a

1899
01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:50,159
common thing I see on the internet people of different

1900
01:26:50,199 --> 01:26:53,119
usages of anti theists, Like I take antithists to be

1901
01:26:53,199 --> 01:26:56,159
like a like against theism, like there's something in principle

1902
01:26:56,279 --> 01:26:58,439
wrong with your theism or a theist.

1903
01:26:58,119 --> 01:26:59,840
Speaker 2: Or something like that. It might not be there.

1904
01:26:59,840 --> 01:27:02,399
Speaker 3: I don't really look into anti theism much, so maybe

1905
01:27:02,399 --> 01:27:06,159
I'm skewed on that it's not as important to me. Yeah,

1906
01:27:06,279 --> 01:27:07,840
I'm an eight. When I say I'm an atheist, I

1907
01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:11,119
think there's two usages of the term that you could

1908
01:27:11,119 --> 01:27:13,720
be talking about. With that it's you just simply don't

1909
01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:14,680
believe that there's a god.

1910
01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:17,039
Speaker 2: Some people might say it's an agnostic.

1911
01:27:17,199 --> 01:27:20,439
Speaker 3: I really think that's the most boring fucking debate in

1912
01:27:20,479 --> 01:27:23,439
the world. And anybody that's having that debate is looking

1913
01:27:23,479 --> 01:27:25,800
really stupid. I don't care if you're like philosophically inclined,

1914
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:27,760
Like I've seen philosophers that are way smarter than me

1915
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:30,359
having this discussion, and it's fucking stupid. Terms have usages,

1916
01:27:30,439 --> 01:27:34,399
they have usages. It's not semantic realism. Okay, it's not

1917
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:35,039
word like.

1918
01:27:35,039 --> 01:27:36,760
Speaker 2: This is so dumb. It's so dumb. People have different

1919
01:27:36,800 --> 01:27:40,199
usages of terms. So, yeah, so I think gods do

1920
01:27:40,279 --> 01:27:41,359
not exist? Yeah?

1921
01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:44,359
Speaker 1: You does that make sense to you? Pete to those

1922
01:27:44,399 --> 01:27:47,960
words like just you believe, you don't believe, you're convinced

1923
01:27:48,000 --> 01:27:49,800
of one thing or another. Can we use that or

1924
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:52,319
can we use the shorthand of atheists just means I'm

1925
01:27:52,359 --> 01:27:55,239
not convinced that a god exists, whether or not I'm

1926
01:27:55,279 --> 01:27:57,039
convinced that they don't exist as irrelevant.

1927
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:01,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I think as will work with it.

1928
01:28:01,760 --> 01:28:04,439
I was kind of bringing it up because you look

1929
01:28:04,560 --> 01:28:08,079
at it, which says a theist.

1930
01:28:08,680 --> 01:28:11,960
Speaker 2: Inout not as a.

1931
01:28:12,199 --> 01:28:19,680
Speaker 1: Means without right, what without without you?

1932
01:28:19,800 --> 01:28:25,239
Speaker 5: Think if you want to say I want an apple

1933
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:29,199
A is in without?

1934
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:31,359
Speaker 2: Do you not know what a prefix is by the

1935
01:28:31,800 --> 01:28:37,640
car you want? Hold on, pe listen, are you absolute goober?

1936
01:28:39,279 --> 01:28:42,039
Speaker 1: Wait a second, Wait a second. We do have to

1937
01:28:42,039 --> 01:28:43,039
make sure that we're not.

1938
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:44,880
Speaker 5: Getting me called I think you guys should be.

1939
01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:49,079
Speaker 1: Called Okay, fair enough, we don't care. My point is,

1940
01:28:49,640 --> 01:28:53,199
what is this whatever we're called? Right, So let's let

1941
01:28:53,239 --> 01:28:55,000
me let's take it from the legal profession.

1942
01:28:55,079 --> 01:28:55,239
Speaker 2: Right.

1943
01:28:55,479 --> 01:28:57,279
Speaker 1: What's the first thing you do in a statute or

1944
01:28:57,279 --> 01:29:00,119
a contract? You define terms. So let's say I'm righting

1945
01:29:00,199 --> 01:29:03,159
up a definition to sell my house.

1946
01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:05,680
Speaker 2: I could say here and after.

1947
01:29:06,119 --> 01:29:07,880
Speaker 1: I wouldn't use that, but that's the old you know,

1948
01:29:08,159 --> 01:29:10,800
I'm when I refer to this house at this address

1949
01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:13,640
using these boundary lines, I'm going to refer to it

1950
01:29:13,680 --> 01:29:17,399
as blurb. And then for the rest of that contract

1951
01:29:17,439 --> 01:29:20,560
it says I'm gonna sell Blurb to Mike for this

1952
01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:23,199
much money, and Mike will take possession of Blurb at

1953
01:29:23,199 --> 01:29:26,600
this time. It doesn't matter what we call it, what

1954
01:29:26,640 --> 01:29:30,399
we what. What it matters is the concept underlying blurb.

1955
01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:32,760
So I don't care what you call me. I just

1956
01:29:32,800 --> 01:29:36,600
want you to understand what My concept is so we

1957
01:29:36,640 --> 01:29:39,239
can actually have a productive conversation if all you want

1958
01:29:39,279 --> 01:29:41,560
to do is call in and argue what a prefix

1959
01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:45,840
after after the before the word theist or theism the

1960
01:29:45,960 --> 01:29:49,600
root means I don't care, it's boring. I agree with Mike. Now,

1961
01:29:49,640 --> 01:29:52,319
does that make sense to you? Like the concept is

1962
01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:56,039
we have we are not convinced that a god exists?

1963
01:29:56,079 --> 01:29:58,279
Do you understand that? Do you understand that we don't

1964
01:29:58,319 --> 01:29:59,000
care what we call it?

1965
01:30:00,840 --> 01:30:02,399
Speaker 2: We're not worried about the grunts?

1966
01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:04,199
Speaker 4: All right?

1967
01:30:04,640 --> 01:30:05,359
Speaker 2: Do you understand that?

1968
01:30:05,399 --> 01:30:05,640
Speaker 9: Pete?

1969
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:09,239
Speaker 1: Okay, So what questions do you have for us about

1970
01:30:09,319 --> 01:30:11,760
our lack of belief in any gods?

1971
01:30:12,239 --> 01:30:15,520
Speaker 5: Well, I'm just goying. Okay, So where where did you

1972
01:30:15,560 --> 01:30:17,199
guys come out of?

1973
01:30:17,239 --> 01:30:17,560
Speaker 7: What?

1974
01:30:17,560 --> 01:30:19,680
Speaker 5: What religions did you guys come out of?

1975
01:30:20,720 --> 01:30:24,199
Speaker 1: I came out of a very mild Episcopalian, but I

1976
01:30:24,239 --> 01:30:27,520
was not raised very religiously, and I defer to Mic

1977
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:28,359
on his background.

1978
01:30:28,399 --> 01:30:31,399
Speaker 2: I think it's similar. Is not very religious.

1979
01:30:33,479 --> 01:30:36,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, sorry, I'm still stuck on the last thing

1980
01:30:36,520 --> 01:30:40,880
we were just talking about. Yeah, I was an atheist

1981
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:46,880
and then I took a trip to uh to beatles

1982
01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:49,520
Land and then can't come back for a while.

1983
01:30:49,399 --> 01:30:51,600
Speaker 2: That was with them and uh in India.

1984
01:30:51,680 --> 01:30:56,359
Speaker 3: You know, yep, No, I was really into the kind

1985
01:30:56,359 --> 01:30:59,279
of spiritual New Age kind of stuff.

1986
01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:01,760
Speaker 2: It's not like the way it is.

1987
01:31:02,079 --> 01:31:03,600
Speaker 3: My version of it was a lot, definitely different than

1988
01:31:03,600 --> 01:31:05,439
people I see on like TikTok Today it's gotten kind

1989
01:31:05,479 --> 01:31:07,600
of way more crazy than I thought it ever could.

1990
01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:09,319
Speaker 2: But so as the world.

1991
01:31:09,640 --> 01:31:11,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe I just am blind to my own craziness

1992
01:31:11,880 --> 01:31:12,640
in the past.

1993
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:14,720
Speaker 2: So Pete, what what are you? What do you believe?

1994
01:31:17,479 --> 01:31:21,760
Speaker 5: What do I I believe in? I believe in his Shem.

1995
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:24,000
I pray to his Shem.

1996
01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:26,399
Speaker 2: Okay what why?

1997
01:31:26,560 --> 01:31:26,760
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1998
01:31:27,239 --> 01:31:28,039
Speaker 3: I believe.

1999
01:31:28,119 --> 01:31:29,560
Speaker 5: I believe in the One God.

2000
01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:33,479
Speaker 2: Now hold on? Hold on, Pete, Pete, Pete, Yeah, I'm not.

2001
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:35,039
I didn't ask what you believe?

2002
01:31:35,159 --> 01:31:38,520
Speaker 1: Beyond that, I asked why why do you believe and

2003
01:31:38,560 --> 01:31:41,239
pray to his Shem?

2004
01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:47,039
Speaker 5: Because he he moves within my my own personal existence.

2005
01:31:47,239 --> 01:31:50,039
Speaker 1: That's meaningless to me. I don't understand that. What means what?

2006
01:31:50,439 --> 01:31:54,079
What evidence do you have that His Shem exists and

2007
01:31:54,119 --> 01:31:54,840
moves within you?

2008
01:31:57,720 --> 01:32:00,680
Speaker 2: My whole life story has ship waits ship. This has

2009
01:32:00,720 --> 01:32:05,039
to be a troll Hashim is hold on? Am I am?

2010
01:32:05,079 --> 01:32:05,520
I wrong?

2011
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:09,319
Speaker 3: Like Hashim is like there's like this spiritual guru guy,

2012
01:32:09,600 --> 01:32:13,159
like bald guy, and he claims to get in contact

2013
01:32:13,239 --> 01:32:14,880
with I believe someone named Hashim?

2014
01:32:15,039 --> 01:32:15,159
Speaker 7: Is that?

2015
01:32:15,359 --> 01:32:15,399
Speaker 9: Not?

2016
01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:18,079
Speaker 2: Am I off on this? Is that what you're taking from.

2017
01:32:21,520 --> 01:32:22,000
Speaker 3: The Hebrew?

2018
01:32:22,119 --> 01:32:24,199
Speaker 2: Okay? Yeah, maybe I'm mixing something up all right.

2019
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:27,279
Speaker 5: The Hebrew god for the name, it means.

2020
01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:29,680
Speaker 4: Yes.

2021
01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:32,880
Speaker 2: So when you say it moves within me.

2022
01:32:33,039 --> 01:32:35,800
Speaker 1: I've had lots of different people call in and say,

2023
01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:39,680
I believe in Yahweh, I believe in Allah, I believe

2024
01:32:39,920 --> 01:32:44,800
in the the Uh Postafarian God. I believe in all

2025
01:32:44,840 --> 01:32:48,119
these different gods because I sense them within me, or

2026
01:32:48,199 --> 01:32:51,560
they speak to me, or those sorts of things. How

2027
01:32:51,920 --> 01:32:56,479
how can I understand what you mean? Because everybody says

2028
01:32:56,520 --> 01:32:58,159
it and they all can't be right. So how do

2029
01:32:58,239 --> 01:33:01,000
I tell which one of you is is is accurate?

2030
01:33:01,079 --> 01:33:03,239
How can you tell if you're accurate? How do you

2031
01:33:03,399 --> 01:33:06,720
know you're truly sensing him her it?

2032
01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:11,239
Speaker 5: Because of what has happened in my own life?

2033
01:33:11,359 --> 01:33:11,720
Speaker 2: Isn't that?

2034
01:33:12,199 --> 01:33:13,119
Speaker 5: See? That's what?

2035
01:33:13,279 --> 01:33:14,680
Speaker 2: Let me ask you something. No no no no no

2036
01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:15,560
no no no no no.

2037
01:33:16,159 --> 01:33:18,600
Speaker 1: That's a good answer. But I want to hold on, Pete.

2038
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:21,239
Let me ask you something if I asked you, how

2039
01:33:21,319 --> 01:33:23,840
do you know what the speed of light in the

2040
01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:26,680
vacuum is? Would you say, well, it's because of the

2041
01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:27,920
what's happened in my life?

2042
01:33:29,760 --> 01:33:33,600
Speaker 5: Well, I would say would you would you yes or no?

2043
01:33:33,720 --> 01:33:35,640
Speaker 1: Would you say I can tell you what the speed

2044
01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:37,760
of light is because of what has happened in my life?

2045
01:33:38,640 --> 01:33:41,479
Speaker 5: I'd say in my life. I would have to sit

2046
01:33:41,600 --> 01:33:46,239
down and calculate that. I would have answers.

2047
01:33:46,319 --> 01:33:47,399
Speaker 2: No, you would not tell you no.

2048
01:33:47,479 --> 01:33:50,439
Speaker 5: No, that would have to make that a mathematical equation.

2049
01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:56,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, Pete, you're missing the point. Pete, you're missing the point.

2050
01:33:56,560 --> 01:33:58,239
Speaker 3: I'm really not you.

2051
01:33:58,520 --> 01:33:59,520
Speaker 2: You really are you?

2052
01:33:59,560 --> 01:33:59,800
Speaker 7: What do you?

2053
01:34:00,039 --> 01:34:02,840
Speaker 1: My point is you don't make these you don't make

2054
01:34:02,920 --> 01:34:07,239
these observations. You don't come to believe these observations because

2055
01:34:07,279 --> 01:34:10,840
of vague things that happened in your life. If you

2056
01:34:10,920 --> 01:34:13,880
were taking a test, you would write down why you

2057
01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:17,560
were convinced that the atomic weight of hydrogen is what

2058
01:34:17,680 --> 01:34:21,600
it is, or that the wavelength of red light is

2059
01:34:21,920 --> 01:34:23,279
this particular wavelength.

2060
01:34:23,640 --> 01:34:24,520
Speaker 2: You wouldn't do that.

2061
01:34:24,760 --> 01:34:26,880
Speaker 1: You would say, because it's been observed and because of

2062
01:34:26,960 --> 01:34:31,720
these experiments. It's not this vague answer of well, things

2063
01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:34,399
have happened in my life, and that is why I

2064
01:34:34,520 --> 01:34:36,279
feel the spirit move within me.

2065
01:34:36,800 --> 01:34:40,000
Speaker 2: And my next question is why the difference?

2066
01:34:40,720 --> 01:34:42,800
Speaker 1: Why is it that people who call in and tell

2067
01:34:42,880 --> 01:34:46,439
me about their God talk about this vague, weird what

2068
01:34:46,680 --> 01:34:48,880
happened to them in their life. But when they ask

2069
01:34:48,960 --> 01:34:51,520
when I ask them about what the fucking drinking limit

2070
01:34:51,680 --> 01:34:53,840
is in my state, they say, oh, zero point zero

2071
01:34:53,920 --> 01:34:56,279
eight because that's what's written down the law, and there's

2072
01:34:56,399 --> 01:34:58,520
a whole bunch of evidence that people get convicted of

2073
01:34:58,600 --> 01:35:01,720
it every day. And like, why the difference? Why do

2074
01:35:01,760 --> 01:35:05,039
you have to revert to this vague woo when I

2075
01:35:05,119 --> 01:35:06,760
ask you why you've been convinced?

2076
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:12,239
Speaker 5: Well, you look at it as a vague thing, and

2077
01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:14,920
and I don't look at it as a vague thing.

2078
01:35:15,279 --> 01:35:16,319
How do I'll go back to.

2079
01:35:16,359 --> 01:35:17,079
Speaker 2: My last question.

2080
01:35:17,159 --> 01:35:18,600
Speaker 1: I want to I want Mike to get in here.

2081
01:35:19,560 --> 01:35:22,479
Like I said, I've had lots of people call in

2082
01:35:22,840 --> 01:35:26,920
tell me the same thing, but they believe in contradictory ideas.

2083
01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:31,800
They can't be simultaneously both, right, So how do I

2084
01:35:31,960 --> 01:35:36,159
know that your will we experience? I'll turn this to

2085
01:35:36,239 --> 01:35:38,600
j Mike. I assume you've gotten people who have called

2086
01:35:38,640 --> 01:35:42,039
in and say I believe because of this weird abstract thing.

2087
01:35:42,119 --> 01:35:44,640
And if we apply that same rule to somebody else,

2088
01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:47,000
they believe in the exact opposite of that caller.

2089
01:35:47,479 --> 01:35:49,760
Speaker 2: How have you ever? Well, I was on the way

2090
01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:50,119
did this thing.

2091
01:35:50,920 --> 01:35:53,640
Speaker 3: I was gonna tell them, like, just look, experience in

2092
01:35:53,720 --> 01:35:57,640
my life tells me that naturalism is true, Like, you know,

2093
01:35:59,079 --> 01:36:00,319
would you want to know more about it?

2094
01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:05,239
Speaker 5: Well, if that's your experience in your life, I mean

2095
01:36:05,279 --> 01:36:05,479
it's that.

2096
01:36:05,680 --> 01:36:08,199
Speaker 2: So then I feel like we're just highlighting that you don't.

2097
01:36:10,960 --> 01:36:13,119
Speaker 5: Found from life's experience, is what I'm saying.

2098
01:36:13,319 --> 01:36:14,439
Speaker 2: Yes, but you're just look.

2099
01:36:15,920 --> 01:36:16,199
Speaker 4: I don't know.

2100
01:36:16,279 --> 01:36:18,359
Speaker 3: I wouldn't even say yes to that. I mean, I'm

2101
01:36:18,399 --> 01:36:21,119
just want I just want him to. I just want

2102
01:36:21,119 --> 01:36:23,880
you to acknowledge that that. Look, we have an audience.

2103
01:36:24,399 --> 01:36:27,000
Do you think it's informative if you're just like I

2104
01:36:27,119 --> 01:36:27,439
had some.

2105
01:36:27,600 --> 01:36:30,680
Speaker 2: Experiences I don't like if I did that, like everyone

2106
01:36:30,760 --> 01:36:31,600
be like, what were they?

2107
01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:31,960
Speaker 7: Right?

2108
01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:34,039
Speaker 2: I want to know what were well? To be fair

2109
01:36:34,640 --> 01:36:36,000
them off before he started.

2110
01:36:37,640 --> 01:36:41,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, hold on, hold on, Pete, I'm Pete, Pete. You

2111
01:36:41,359 --> 01:36:43,800
have this tendency to just start talking. Just give us

2112
01:36:43,800 --> 01:36:45,640
a chance, and I'll give you. If you've listened to

2113
01:36:45,680 --> 01:36:47,359
the rest of the show. I've given everybody a good

2114
01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:49,520
chance to talk, and I was about to defend you.

2115
01:36:50,000 --> 01:36:54,840
Say to be fair, to be fair, to be fair, Pete,

2116
01:36:56,760 --> 01:36:59,960
just listen for a second. I was just going to say,

2117
01:37:00,520 --> 01:37:03,720
to be fair. I cut Pete off before he told

2118
01:37:03,800 --> 01:37:06,880
me what the experience was. I was defending you a

2119
01:37:06,960 --> 01:37:09,520
little bit, all right, So give me a minute, give

2120
01:37:09,640 --> 01:37:11,600
j Mike a minute to ask his questions, all right,

2121
01:37:12,319 --> 01:37:14,479
and then I will signal when it's your turn to talk.

2122
01:37:14,880 --> 01:37:16,720
And as long as you are not going to assert

2123
01:37:16,800 --> 01:37:18,920
something that we have to immediately dispute and go on,

2124
01:37:19,279 --> 01:37:21,359
you know, maybe a five minute discussion, and then we

2125
01:37:21,439 --> 01:37:23,680
have to go back five minutes to say you said

2126
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:26,119
X and we disagree with the premise. We can save

2127
01:37:26,199 --> 01:37:27,960
a bunch of time. So if we interrupt you, it's

2128
01:37:28,039 --> 01:37:30,159
for a good reason. We've done this a lot. We

2129
01:37:30,359 --> 01:37:33,399
know when we have to interrupt, and then we will debate,

2130
01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:37,119
just the way I interrupted a call earlier and said, well, technically,

2131
01:37:37,359 --> 01:37:38,720
I can find a lot of people that think that

2132
01:37:39,159 --> 01:37:39,920
torture's okay.

2133
01:37:40,039 --> 01:37:40,319
Speaker 2: All right.

2134
01:37:40,439 --> 01:37:43,279
Speaker 1: I don't let those things go by and give it

2135
01:37:43,399 --> 01:37:47,000
implicit agreement, all right, So let's start off again. I've

2136
01:37:47,039 --> 01:37:50,560
seen other callers do this. Secular rarety does this. JA Mike,

2137
01:37:51,239 --> 01:37:53,600
what question do you have for have for Pete?

2138
01:37:53,720 --> 01:37:56,000
Speaker 2: Like, hey, Pete, welcome to the show. J Mike, what

2139
01:37:56,159 --> 01:37:57,520
question do you have for Pete about what he said

2140
01:37:57,560 --> 01:37:59,119
so far? Yeah?

2141
01:37:59,159 --> 01:38:02,760
Speaker 3: Look, look, I presumably you want to convince you know, well,

2142
01:38:02,800 --> 01:38:04,119
I don't know if you do, but like we, we

2143
01:38:04,239 --> 01:38:07,119
want to take callers and have reasons that are convincing. Right,

2144
01:38:07,880 --> 01:38:09,840
And if I came up to you and said, well,

2145
01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:12,439
I have these kind of experiences and they showed me

2146
01:38:12,520 --> 01:38:14,520
naturalism is true, your response was like, well, that's great,

2147
01:38:14,600 --> 01:38:16,880
because I think you take that from your experience or something.

2148
01:38:17,239 --> 01:38:20,279
But are you now convinced that naturalism is true by

2149
01:38:20,319 --> 01:38:22,920
me talking vaguely about these experiences.

2150
01:38:26,279 --> 01:38:28,600
Speaker 5: You're talking about naturalism like that.

2151
01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:28,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2152
01:38:28,920 --> 01:38:31,319
Speaker 3: If I say, I say I had not naturalism is true,

2153
01:38:31,319 --> 01:38:32,840
and you ask me how I know that, and I'm like, well,

2154
01:38:32,840 --> 01:38:34,520
I've just had these kind of experiences, I leave it

2155
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:37,079
kind of vague. Clearly at this at this point in

2156
01:38:37,159 --> 01:38:39,960
the dialectic, you aren't convinced by me saying.

2157
01:38:39,800 --> 01:38:42,680
Speaker 1: That, right, And to define for Pete, naturalism he means

2158
01:38:43,319 --> 01:38:45,920
basically all there is is things that are in nature.

2159
01:38:45,960 --> 01:38:47,840
Speaker 2: There is no sea natural yeah, or you can just

2160
01:38:47,920 --> 01:38:50,119
view it as like you know, make it easier. No God,

2161
01:38:50,199 --> 01:38:50,479
that's my.

2162
01:38:50,560 --> 01:38:55,840
Speaker 5: View, right right, If that's if that is your human experience,

2163
01:38:56,000 --> 01:38:59,119
if that's what you have experience to come about with

2164
01:38:59,359 --> 01:39:05,520
your own truth, arty, thank you and.

2165
01:39:07,119 --> 01:39:08,800
Speaker 2: Thank you. That's where I wanted us to get.

2166
01:39:09,279 --> 01:39:12,199
Speaker 1: So you just use this phrase that is meaningless to

2167
01:39:12,359 --> 01:39:14,680
me and a lot of pop culture people use it.

2168
01:39:14,960 --> 01:39:18,920
Your own truth. There is either do you agree that

2169
01:39:19,039 --> 01:39:21,720
there is either a something that meets your definition of

2170
01:39:21,800 --> 01:39:24,439
God exists or it doesn't exist.

2171
01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:26,840
Speaker 2: Do you agree with that it's true or it's not true.

2172
01:39:29,399 --> 01:39:30,199
It's not a trap.

2173
01:39:30,279 --> 01:39:33,399
Speaker 1: I'm just setting the stage. Do you agree that either

2174
01:39:33,640 --> 01:39:34,960
a god exists or one does not?

2175
01:39:35,039 --> 01:39:38,359
Speaker 2: Maybe make it easier. Either I stole from Graham's wallet

2176
01:39:38,520 --> 01:39:39,039
or I didn't.

2177
01:39:40,479 --> 01:39:42,760
Speaker 5: God is either going to exist or not exist.

2178
01:39:43,239 --> 01:39:47,079
Speaker 2: Okay, whether it exists or not, does that depend on

2179
01:39:47,159 --> 01:39:49,359
whether or not you believe in it existing or does

2180
01:39:49,399 --> 01:39:51,239
it exist regardless of your beliefs.

2181
01:39:53,159 --> 01:39:55,640
Speaker 5: It exists with regardless of my beliefs.

2182
01:39:55,920 --> 01:39:58,039
Speaker 1: Okay, So what you just said to Ja Mike doesn't

2183
01:39:58,039 --> 01:40:01,880
make sense because you said, oh you believe there's no gods.

2184
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:04,239
That's your own personal truth, so that must be true.

2185
01:40:05,560 --> 01:40:06,880
Do you see how that doesn't make sense?

2186
01:40:08,079 --> 01:40:09,439
Speaker 5: No, it makes perfect sense.

2187
01:40:10,119 --> 01:40:13,199
Speaker 2: Okay, So what is the when I hear personal truth?

2188
01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:15,800
Speaker 1: Then then if that makes sense to you, then the

2189
01:40:15,840 --> 01:40:19,640
word personal the phrase personal truth is nonsense because what

2190
01:40:19,760 --> 01:40:22,960
it means is anybody can have their own truth and

2191
01:40:23,039 --> 01:40:24,199
there is no shared reality.

2192
01:40:25,840 --> 01:40:31,720
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, if you're walking home and you see

2193
01:40:31,720 --> 01:40:36,960
a straight dog walking on the tracks, and the dog

2194
01:40:37,960 --> 01:40:42,199
gets up and bounces on two feet and hops over

2195
01:40:42,640 --> 01:40:46,159
all four rails of the track, say it's a double track,

2196
01:40:47,079 --> 01:40:49,239
and then you come to me and say, hey, this

2197
01:40:49,479 --> 01:40:52,880
is what I saw. Yeah, I mean that's what you saw.

2198
01:40:53,199 --> 01:40:53,840
Speaker 6: That's your Yeah.

2199
01:40:53,880 --> 01:40:56,159
Speaker 3: But okay, but there could be can well? First off,

2200
01:40:56,199 --> 01:40:58,680
I mean so it could there could there could be

2201
01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:01,439
candidate X. Like, first off, if you came to me

2202
01:41:01,520 --> 01:41:03,840
and said that or someone said that, I would I'd ask,

2203
01:41:04,159 --> 01:41:07,600
initially if you had an fMRI recently, That's initially what

2204
01:41:07,640 --> 01:41:10,279
I would say to you, right, Or I would or

2205
01:41:10,319 --> 01:41:12,479
I'd say, maybe maybe we should check.

2206
01:41:12,399 --> 01:41:13,560
Speaker 2: The water supply at your house.

2207
01:41:13,720 --> 01:41:16,039
Speaker 3: Make sure you know nobody's put some masst in it,

2208
01:41:16,279 --> 01:41:19,199
all right, cause uh, we don't have background information of

2209
01:41:19,239 --> 01:41:21,520
that type of thing, and that's very important these conversations, right,

2210
01:41:21,560 --> 01:41:24,479
I have like none of that support there. So if

2211
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:27,640
we get behind these like these vague things and it

2212
01:41:27,720 --> 01:41:31,399
turns out to be like, you know, something we could

2213
01:41:31,399 --> 01:41:33,199
talk about like the dog jumping over the track, that

2214
01:41:33,239 --> 01:41:35,359
could be that could be something of substance. But you know,

2215
01:41:35,920 --> 01:41:38,119
you don't have like your truth and I don't have

2216
01:41:38,279 --> 01:41:40,359
my truth, like either one of us is right, and

2217
01:41:40,439 --> 01:41:42,800
I'm I'm I don't have much time, but I'm interested

2218
01:41:42,880 --> 01:41:45,640
in knowing, like like how you could get me to

2219
01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:47,399
your side, like could you give me a pitch and

2220
01:41:47,560 --> 01:41:50,000
argument or something like your experience? Tell you what your

2221
01:41:50,039 --> 01:41:51,600
experience was, Like I don't even I still don't even

2222
01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:53,399
understand what what the hell convinced you?

2223
01:41:53,800 --> 01:41:57,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I will let continuing on for j Mike's and

2224
01:41:57,760 --> 01:42:00,239
your your hypo uh heat.

2225
01:42:02,039 --> 01:42:05,760
Speaker 1: Regardless of what I saw, either there was really a

2226
01:42:05,840 --> 01:42:08,520
dog that did that or there wasn't. Regardless of what

2227
01:42:08,600 --> 01:42:11,600
I saw, we agree with that, right, either what I

2228
01:42:11,680 --> 01:42:13,359
saw was universally.

2229
01:42:12,880 --> 01:42:15,960
Speaker 2: True or not right.

2230
01:42:16,640 --> 01:42:19,199
Speaker 1: Right, So if you were standing next to me and

2231
01:42:19,319 --> 01:42:22,840
you saw it, there would be more evidence in support

2232
01:42:22,920 --> 01:42:25,279
of that Oh, that's really true. But if you were

2233
01:42:25,359 --> 01:42:27,640
standing next to me and you didn't see it, that

2234
01:42:27,720 --> 01:42:30,439
would be evidence that I'm having some sort.

2235
01:42:30,239 --> 01:42:33,920
Speaker 2: Of like the water problem is Mike put it? Yeah,

2236
01:42:33,920 --> 01:42:35,960
well the ghast leak in my in my house, right,

2237
01:42:36,000 --> 01:42:38,960
that I'm having a delusion or something. Right, So you

2238
01:42:39,119 --> 01:42:39,920
seem to agree.

2239
01:42:40,479 --> 01:42:43,239
Speaker 1: At the same time, you'd be using this like, yes,

2240
01:42:43,479 --> 01:42:46,039
either really the dog exists, there isn't. But then you

2241
01:42:46,199 --> 01:42:47,680
use that as an example to tell me that we

2242
01:42:47,720 --> 01:42:50,119
all have our own truth. So again I'm left with

2243
01:42:50,760 --> 01:42:53,840
this sounds like nonsense, like why does my truth matter?

2244
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:55,880
Speaker 2: Doesn't all that matter the objective truth?

2245
01:42:57,119 --> 01:43:00,600
Speaker 5: Well, well, just let's just start out with something small

2246
01:43:01,000 --> 01:43:04,199
on what happened, what would have happened to me in

2247
01:43:04,439 --> 01:43:07,640
my life with a witness. And I was a little

2248
01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:11,319
boy and I was watching TV. My mom was laying

2249
01:43:11,800 --> 01:43:17,359
on the chair next to me, sleeping, and I was

2250
01:43:17,479 --> 01:43:21,760
just watching the TV. And she woke up and she

2251
01:43:21,920 --> 01:43:26,479
looked at me and she said she's dead. And I

2252
01:43:26,680 --> 01:43:28,520
was a little boy. Man, I looked at her and

2253
01:43:28,560 --> 01:43:32,840
I'm like what, And right when she said that, the

2254
01:43:33,119 --> 01:43:34,359
phone rings.

2255
01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:39,000
Speaker 2: And somebody, Okay, that's the point. I got the point.

2256
01:43:39,039 --> 01:43:40,079
Pete I got the point.

2257
01:43:40,159 --> 01:43:41,840
Speaker 5: Pete, Pete, Pete, Pete, Pete.

2258
01:43:41,880 --> 01:43:44,880
Speaker 1: You've heard a hundred of time. I'm muting him, and

2259
01:43:45,079 --> 01:43:49,000
I was, so we've heard this one hundred meat. Nope,

2260
01:43:49,079 --> 01:43:52,720
nobody can hear you, Pete. We understand the stories. I

2261
01:43:52,840 --> 01:43:56,199
know he's but we've heard a hundred of those. Your

2262
01:43:56,279 --> 01:44:00,439
pastors cite these stories from But you're missing the point.

2263
01:44:01,840 --> 01:44:05,640
Either that really happened for some reason, like some mystical reason,

2264
01:44:05,800 --> 01:44:08,119
or it didn't, and you seem to not want to

2265
01:44:08,159 --> 01:44:10,680
accept that. You just seem to want to gravitate towards

2266
01:44:11,479 --> 01:44:13,880
Let's say it's true. First of all, let's say that

2267
01:44:13,960 --> 01:44:16,000
what you're saying is true. I have no reason to

2268
01:44:16,439 --> 01:44:17,960
doubt or believe either.

2269
01:44:17,880 --> 01:44:20,560
Speaker 2: So I'm willing to bet there was no further investigation

2270
01:44:20,680 --> 01:44:24,159
on it. That's the point. Let's say that what happened

2271
01:44:24,319 --> 01:44:31,079
was true. Okay, So what Mike, You hit the nail

2272
01:44:31,119 --> 01:44:31,439
on the head.

2273
01:44:31,560 --> 01:44:34,199
Speaker 3: You didn't do anything to like even find out. You

2274
01:44:34,439 --> 01:44:37,399
just accepted a feeling that you had. I have feelings,

2275
01:44:37,439 --> 01:44:39,560
and I'm fucking wrong about the feelings I have a

2276
01:44:39,600 --> 01:44:42,720
lot of the time. Who cares, it's just the way

2277
01:44:42,760 --> 01:44:44,399
you package it was really confusing. But it seems like

2278
01:44:44,479 --> 01:44:47,079
we got to the point, which is this really weird,

2279
01:44:47,159 --> 01:44:47,880
crazy thing happened.

2280
01:44:48,039 --> 01:44:49,920
Speaker 2: The coincidence I've had that happen too.

2281
01:44:50,119 --> 01:44:52,479
Speaker 3: I thought one time when I was a band practice

2282
01:44:52,680 --> 01:44:55,760
that I saw a station wagon fly over my head

2283
01:44:56,319 --> 01:44:59,279
like and I just I realized later I was like,

2284
01:44:59,319 --> 01:45:03,560
well it was really I was super dark. It's probably

2285
01:45:03,640 --> 01:45:06,560
just like a low like single engine plane. And I'm

2286
01:45:06,560 --> 01:45:10,720
an idiot, right, like that's that that? That right there

2287
01:45:10,800 --> 01:45:13,399
should be more convincing to you, like you know, prima

2288
01:45:13,439 --> 01:45:16,000
fashion off the bat, off the rip than like maybe

2289
01:45:16,079 --> 01:45:18,960
it really was this like station wagon that flies because

2290
01:45:19,000 --> 01:45:21,279
of all the background I have a lot of background information.

2291
01:45:21,600 --> 01:45:24,279
Maybe in an idiot, I have none a flying station wagons,

2292
01:45:24,279 --> 01:45:27,239
And I think in your case, like you have, you know,

2293
01:45:28,479 --> 01:45:29,319
weird things happen.

2294
01:45:29,560 --> 01:45:32,079
Speaker 2: They go unexplained. But I'll tell you what you didn't

2295
01:45:32,159 --> 01:45:34,439
do is you didn't go investigate it. Probably did you?

2296
01:45:34,560 --> 01:45:35,479
Did you go investigate?

2297
01:45:35,600 --> 01:45:38,239
Speaker 3: You call the paranormal people that are on season twenty

2298
01:45:38,279 --> 01:45:39,560
four of Never Finding a Ghost.

2299
01:45:41,199 --> 01:45:43,039
Speaker 2: So Pete, you get where we're coming at.

2300
01:45:44,520 --> 01:45:47,520
Speaker 5: Well, well, I did ask my mom like what was

2301
01:45:47,600 --> 01:45:50,119
that about? Because like she likes Pete.

2302
01:45:50,279 --> 01:45:51,279
Speaker 2: I'm gonna ask you to stop.

2303
01:45:51,439 --> 01:45:54,119
Speaker 1: Please please, Pete, Pete, what I'm just gonna ask you

2304
01:45:54,159 --> 01:45:57,239
to stop? I asked you a question. Do you understand?

2305
01:45:57,760 --> 01:45:59,079
Speaker 9: Argue to answer you?

2306
01:45:59,239 --> 01:46:00,560
Speaker 7: You said instigated?

2307
01:46:00,600 --> 01:46:01,199
Speaker 4: How did I know?

2308
01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:04,720
Speaker 2: No, Pete, Pete, I asked you a question. What question

2309
01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:05,319
did I ask you?

2310
01:46:05,439 --> 01:46:05,720
Speaker 5: Maybe? I?

2311
01:46:05,920 --> 01:46:08,439
Speaker 2: Maybe I maybe I do need to defend do the

2312
01:46:08,479 --> 01:46:10,479
same thing you did as I did. Ask a question.

2313
01:46:11,720 --> 01:46:14,000
Speaker 1: But but my question was, Pete, when I took you

2314
01:46:14,039 --> 01:46:17,319
off a mute, I said, do you understand where we're

2315
01:46:17,439 --> 01:46:18,039
coming from?

2316
01:46:18,159 --> 01:46:19,680
Speaker 2: Could you answer that question first?

2317
01:46:21,840 --> 01:46:25,239
Speaker 5: Okay, I understand where you're coming from. I yeah, Yeah, guys,

2318
01:46:26,039 --> 01:46:28,840
the children of the mute God should just mute me

2319
01:46:28,960 --> 01:46:29,239
all the.

2320
01:46:29,319 --> 01:46:31,319
Speaker 6: Time that we are we are that?

2321
01:46:31,560 --> 01:46:34,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, we are so so I mean that whining. Can

2322
01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:35,560
you answer the question?

2323
01:46:35,760 --> 01:46:39,680
Speaker 5: But what what's okay? Answer the question?

2324
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:40,399
Speaker 2: What was the question?

2325
01:46:40,479 --> 01:46:41,000
Speaker 5: One more time?

2326
01:46:42,479 --> 01:46:44,840
Speaker 2: Do you understand the argument that J, Mike and I

2327
01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:46,880
are making? Now all of a sudden, I don't feel

2328
01:46:46,880 --> 01:46:47,640
so bad for muting.

2329
01:46:47,840 --> 01:46:52,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, well I wasn't saying anything. You still had me

2330
01:46:52,399 --> 01:46:52,920
on mute.

2331
01:46:53,039 --> 01:46:55,680
Speaker 2: Oh my god, like a gold fish.

2332
01:46:57,199 --> 01:47:00,560
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll give you one more chance, but hey, can

2333
01:47:00,640 --> 01:47:03,760
you please rephrase the argument we're making back to us

2334
01:47:03,960 --> 01:47:04,920
so we can understand.

2335
01:47:05,039 --> 01:47:07,600
Speaker 2: Okay, you understand what we're saying. What is our position?

2336
01:47:07,720 --> 01:47:08,000
Speaker 6: Okay?

2337
01:47:08,039 --> 01:47:11,279
Speaker 5: What what what you're saying? Is you for for you

2338
01:47:11,439 --> 01:47:16,000
guys to believe in any way whatsoever as non theist,

2339
01:47:17,199 --> 01:47:20,600
you guys will have to have a crowd.

2340
01:47:21,600 --> 01:47:22,840
Speaker 6: You guys need a crowd.

2341
01:47:23,159 --> 01:47:25,239
Speaker 2: You guys need an experience too.

2342
01:47:25,359 --> 01:47:28,439
Speaker 1: But I would so that's not our position. The fact

2343
01:47:28,479 --> 01:47:30,840
that you dragged in non theists. My position has nothing

2344
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:33,319
to do with theism. We were talking about your mom

2345
01:47:33,439 --> 01:47:36,520
saying she's dead or whatever, or a dog dancing on track.

2346
01:47:37,319 --> 01:47:46,560
Our position is belief requires sufficient evidence, all right, don't

2347
01:47:46,600 --> 01:47:47,000
you agree?

2348
01:47:48,159 --> 01:47:51,800
Speaker 5: I mean the evidence was that her mother had died.

2349
01:47:52,479 --> 01:47:56,279
Speaker 1: Like at that evidence that your mom said something coincidentally

2350
01:47:56,319 --> 01:47:58,279
with getting a phone call about something died. That's what

2351
01:47:58,399 --> 01:48:02,079
it's evidence for. It's not as God. It's not evidence

2352
01:48:02,159 --> 01:48:05,319
for the universe that wants you to feel loved. It's

2353
01:48:05,399 --> 01:48:08,840
not evidence for anything other than you you heard your

2354
01:48:08,880 --> 01:48:11,880
mom say something and a phone rang and you got news.

2355
01:48:11,800 --> 01:48:13,960
Speaker 3: Which and by the way, that that piece of like

2356
01:48:14,039 --> 01:48:17,239
that datum is like consistent if we do you know,

2357
01:48:18,079 --> 01:48:21,000
just grant you there, maybe there was some super spooky stuff. Yeah,

2358
01:48:21,119 --> 01:48:23,199
you would expect that on the hypothesis. You would also

2359
01:48:23,319 --> 01:48:26,079
expect the phone ringing and then it not being a

2360
01:48:26,119 --> 01:48:28,359
spooky thing. If it was just a coincidence, you would

2361
01:48:28,359 --> 01:48:32,560
expect that type of like that fact to be the case.

2362
01:48:32,720 --> 01:48:35,760
It's that fact is consistent with both of the hypotheses, right,

2363
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:37,880
It's not like it's going to like edge one out

2364
01:48:37,920 --> 01:48:39,359
over the other. So I don't know why you would

2365
01:48:39,359 --> 01:48:44,119
call that evidence. But let me queue up Jamie, because

2366
01:48:44,119 --> 01:48:46,119
I know, real Fast, I'm sorry to do this to you.

2367
01:48:46,479 --> 01:48:46,840
Speaker 5: I have to.

2368
01:48:46,960 --> 01:48:47,640
Speaker 2: I have to bounce out.

2369
01:48:47,640 --> 01:48:48,439
Speaker 11: I have we do that.

2370
01:48:48,600 --> 01:48:50,560
Speaker 3: Sorry, I have some things that I have to take

2371
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:54,439
care of, and I'm gonna get Jamie up here. But

2372
01:48:54,600 --> 01:48:57,279
I did maybe ended on at least.

2373
01:48:57,359 --> 01:48:58,520
Speaker 5: For my good.

2374
01:48:59,239 --> 01:49:02,239
Speaker 2: What I'll do then is, thanks Jamie for joining, say

2375
01:49:02,319 --> 01:49:07,000
goodbye to well real Fast. That was quite You're good,

2376
01:49:07,359 --> 01:49:11,199
I did. I don't know like it. It's a confusing call,

2377
01:49:11,319 --> 01:49:12,479
like the way that you speak about it.

2378
01:49:12,720 --> 01:49:16,640
Speaker 3: I want you to like examine like other beliefs that

2379
01:49:16,760 --> 01:49:20,840
you don't hold right, like I don't know, maybe atheism

2380
01:49:20,960 --> 01:49:23,399
or whatever, and then put yourself in a position of

2381
01:49:23,560 --> 01:49:27,720
going wuld I accept when presented the same case for

2382
01:49:27,840 --> 01:49:30,319
this belief, what I accept it, and your answer will

2383
01:49:30,359 --> 01:49:32,560
probably be no, and then ask yourself, like why you're

2384
01:49:32,560 --> 01:49:34,840
doing it in this case, like it just seems like, oh,

2385
01:49:35,079 --> 01:49:38,039
like I had this coincidence and I don't care to

2386
01:49:38,159 --> 01:49:40,159
But if I had said that and attribute it to

2387
01:49:40,359 --> 01:49:44,479
like any other phenomena in the world, you wouldn't accept that, right.

2388
01:49:44,520 --> 01:49:46,319
You wouldn't just be like, oh, okay, yeah it was

2389
01:49:46,359 --> 01:49:50,560
bigfoot that called clearly right. It's it's the things that

2390
01:49:50,600 --> 01:49:53,680
you're citing aren't even part of our background information, whereas

2391
01:49:53,760 --> 01:49:56,279
like a coincidence or things happening like that are.

2392
01:49:56,479 --> 01:49:58,680
Speaker 2: We do have those kind of things that happen, So.

2393
01:49:58,800 --> 01:50:00,399
Speaker 3: You're gonna have to just do more and be like,

2394
01:50:00,560 --> 01:50:03,760
I'm pretty sure it was this thing when the alternative

2395
01:50:03,840 --> 01:50:08,880
candidate explanations actually have like statistic data points of happening.

2396
01:50:09,239 --> 01:50:13,000
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, but anyway, so I'll cue up Jamie at

2397
01:50:13,079 --> 01:50:16,039
just point being Jamie's on. Hi, Jamie, Yeah, you know,

2398
01:50:17,720 --> 01:50:20,000
point being, have have a have a good time, guys.

2399
01:50:20,039 --> 01:50:23,000
I'm more confused on this call than I've ever been

2400
01:50:23,039 --> 01:50:23,520
on any call.

2401
01:50:23,680 --> 01:50:28,239
Speaker 5: So have a good well, you should should Maybe you

2402
01:50:28,279 --> 01:50:30,479
wouldn't be so confused If you didn't.

2403
01:50:30,680 --> 01:50:33,840
Speaker 2: Are you just here? Is this you guys about being muted?

2404
01:50:35,960 --> 01:50:37,760
All you want to do? Complain about being used?

2405
01:50:38,000 --> 01:50:42,079
Speaker 1: You want to have a conversation, Pete, Pete, Pete, it's

2406
01:50:42,159 --> 01:50:44,880
our show. Just shut up and listen for a second.

2407
01:50:45,720 --> 01:50:47,279
Do you want to have a conversation or do you

2408
01:50:47,359 --> 01:50:49,720
want to complain about being muted when you talk too much?

2409
01:50:52,720 --> 01:50:55,079
Speaker 5: I didn't even say a word, and you guys are

2410
01:50:55,159 --> 01:50:55,600
muting me.

2411
01:50:56,800 --> 01:50:58,920
Speaker 2: Because you're not being muted. Okay, got it?

2412
01:50:59,319 --> 01:51:02,520
Speaker 1: Well no, no, okay, don't want to have a conversation,

2413
01:51:02,760 --> 01:51:04,960
then't just have a conversation. I don't want to hear

2414
01:51:04,960 --> 01:51:06,319
about complaining about being muted.

2415
01:51:06,399 --> 01:51:09,199
Speaker 2: It's our show. We moderated the way we want to.

2416
01:51:09,520 --> 01:51:12,399
Speaker 1: If you're going to call in and start going like

2417
01:51:12,479 --> 01:51:14,960
a cat running in twenty eight directions, we're gonna mute

2418
01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:16,800
you until we can get it back on track.

2419
01:51:17,119 --> 01:51:17,880
Speaker 2: That's what we do.

2420
01:51:18,640 --> 01:51:22,800
Speaker 1: So Jamie's here, Maybe he has some questions for you. Jamie,

2421
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:25,840
you've been listening. Thank you for filling in and being

2422
01:51:25,880 --> 01:51:28,439
our backup. Do you have any questions for Pete?

2423
01:51:29,239 --> 01:51:36,000
Speaker 14: Well, okay, Pete, so I I the story about the

2424
01:51:36,439 --> 01:51:41,039
phone call coming just after you the announcement, like the

2425
01:51:41,199 --> 01:51:45,079
it seems like precognition, right, seems like, yeah, my mom.

2426
01:51:44,960 --> 01:51:47,479
Speaker 5: Woke up, she like woke up out of a dead sleep.

2427
01:51:47,520 --> 01:51:50,520
Speaker 2: And she was like he did. Okay. I was like,

2428
01:51:51,760 --> 01:51:57,520
ok pe started, we get it, we get it, we

2429
01:51:57,640 --> 01:52:00,279
understand the premise. I believe we've heard it a thousd.

2430
01:52:00,600 --> 01:52:05,279
Speaker 14: Okay, let's take let's take them to keep this on

2431
01:52:05,439 --> 01:52:06,239
track just a.

2432
01:52:06,199 --> 01:52:09,399
Speaker 6: Little bit, just a little bit. I believe you, Pete

2433
01:52:10,039 --> 01:52:12,359
in that. I believe that you.

2434
01:52:12,680 --> 01:52:16,039
Speaker 14: Felt that experience and you felt that it was true

2435
01:52:16,479 --> 01:52:20,720
and supernatural. Okay, So here's my question for you. Right,

2436
01:52:22,359 --> 01:52:25,079
you come to me with that story, and you are

2437
01:52:25,600 --> 01:52:30,880
and you're correct, Like literally, God, whatever God concept you

2438
01:52:31,039 --> 01:52:36,119
have reached down and gave your mom the power of precognition,

2439
01:52:36,159 --> 01:52:40,239
the power of extra sensory perception. You're right, God exists,

2440
01:52:40,279 --> 01:52:43,840
and that's proof of it. Another person comes to me

2441
01:52:43,920 --> 01:52:46,680
with a very similar story. They were sleeping at night

2442
01:52:46,760 --> 01:52:49,239
and then their dad came in and said, oh, oh

2443
01:52:49,600 --> 01:52:50,079
he's dead.

2444
01:52:50,159 --> 01:52:50,640
Speaker 6: He's dead.

2445
01:52:50,680 --> 01:52:52,439
Speaker 14: And then they get a phone call and their best

2446
01:52:52,479 --> 01:52:55,680
friend just died in a car accident. And that's just

2447
01:52:55,760 --> 01:52:58,840
a coincidence. God didn't tell him that it was just

2448
01:52:58,920 --> 01:53:02,720
a coincidence. So I have two people, one who's been

2449
01:53:02,760 --> 01:53:05,600
touched by God and one who hasn't, and they're telling

2450
01:53:05,640 --> 01:53:11,680
me the same story. How do I externally tell the difference?

2451
01:53:14,439 --> 01:53:19,720
Speaker 5: Well, I think that would be through your own life experiences, Like,

2452
01:53:20,119 --> 01:53:22,560
what do you really look at coincidences?

2453
01:53:23,319 --> 01:53:27,640
Speaker 1: I mean, that's toppings happening at the same time. Yeah,

2454
01:53:27,760 --> 01:53:29,479
that's the definition of coincidence.

2455
01:53:30,079 --> 01:53:33,520
Speaker 14: My life experience tells me that every time I've gone

2456
01:53:33,560 --> 01:53:38,600
on intuition, made assumptions, or believed I was right without evidence,

2457
01:53:39,520 --> 01:53:45,159
bad things happen, and that being empirical and demanding us

2458
01:53:45,279 --> 01:53:48,880
appropriate evidence before coming to a belief has served me

2459
01:53:49,520 --> 01:53:55,600
far far better than just going by a feeling. Personal experience,

2460
01:53:55,640 --> 01:53:59,000
and take it from someone who's visually impaired, eyewitness account

2461
01:53:59,239 --> 01:54:04,600
is oh shit, your eyes and mind are fragile, easily

2462
01:54:04,840 --> 01:54:07,720
fooled things, and so I don't trust them.

2463
01:54:11,159 --> 01:54:14,680
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I don't see how I couldn't trust

2464
01:54:15,000 --> 01:54:17,159
a truth that happened in front of me.

2465
01:54:17,359 --> 01:54:19,600
Speaker 2: That you're smuggling in the premise.

2466
01:54:19,640 --> 01:54:23,159
Speaker 1: Hold on, Pete, hold on, you're smuggling in the premise

2467
01:54:23,319 --> 01:54:26,439
that it is true. And when you say true, you

2468
01:54:26,560 --> 01:54:32,279
mean that for shorthand a god was involved. You haven't

2469
01:54:32,479 --> 01:54:35,479
established that that's true. You have established and we are accepting.

2470
01:54:35,880 --> 01:54:39,079
Speaker 2: Mom wokes up, says she's dead, got a phone called confirmed,

2471
01:54:39,119 --> 01:54:42,720
she's somebody probably she is dead. Those are what you've

2472
01:54:43,039 --> 01:54:44,239
were willing to grant you.

2473
01:54:44,680 --> 01:54:46,920
Speaker 1: And then you call it a truth that there's a

2474
01:54:47,079 --> 01:54:51,680
god or a supernatural or something mystic happened. You seem

2475
01:54:51,720 --> 01:54:54,199
to be accepting that as given without feeling like a

2476
01:54:54,239 --> 01:54:57,039
burden to prove to us that that's real, and distinguishing

2477
01:54:57,119 --> 01:55:00,359
it from Jamie's example of Okay, somebody else else has

2478
01:55:00,439 --> 01:55:02,439
that happened, but no god exists? How do I tell

2479
01:55:02,520 --> 01:55:05,119
the difference? And you keep going back to this comments,

2480
01:55:05,279 --> 01:55:09,399
this comment of your reality or your truth. We already

2481
01:55:09,479 --> 01:55:12,000
established early in the call that that doesn't make sense.

2482
01:55:12,039 --> 01:55:14,760
And you agree that there is an objective truth, either

2483
01:55:14,840 --> 01:55:18,039
there is a god or there isn't. You can't keep

2484
01:55:18,119 --> 01:55:21,880
falling back on your truth unless what you mean is

2485
01:55:22,399 --> 01:55:24,920
you don't give a shit what anybody believes, and you

2486
01:55:25,000 --> 01:55:27,640
don't give a shit what you believe as long as

2487
01:55:27,680 --> 01:55:30,640
it feels true to you. If that's what you're arguing,

2488
01:55:30,720 --> 01:55:33,479
I think that's very dangerous. So let me ask you

2489
01:55:33,520 --> 01:55:37,239
a question. I think the best approach is to believe

2490
01:55:37,279 --> 01:55:41,119
as many true things and as few false things as possible.

2491
01:55:41,319 --> 01:55:43,840
Speaker 2: Do you agree that that should be everybody's goal?

2492
01:55:46,920 --> 01:55:48,800
Speaker 5: Yes, we all want to be more truthful.

2493
01:55:49,720 --> 01:55:54,279
Speaker 1: No, not be more truthful, believe more truth things. I

2494
01:55:54,399 --> 01:55:55,279
just want to clarify that.

2495
01:55:56,439 --> 01:56:00,680
Speaker 5: I like to say, be alive in more truth. How's that? No?

2496
01:56:01,399 --> 01:56:01,760
That to me?

2497
01:56:01,880 --> 01:56:03,640
Speaker 2: That that fits in, because I think you like to

2498
01:56:03,720 --> 01:56:06,720
come to deal with reality.

2499
01:56:07,279 --> 01:56:10,399
Speaker 1: People who want to use words that don't really mean

2500
01:56:10,479 --> 01:56:12,159
as much use fuzzy words.

2501
01:56:12,800 --> 01:56:16,840
Speaker 2: They tend to want to avoid real discussion. So I'm

2502
01:56:16,880 --> 01:56:18,119
asking you a real question.

2503
01:56:18,640 --> 01:56:22,600
Speaker 1: Do you agree that we one of your primary, if

2504
01:56:22,640 --> 01:56:26,079
not the primary revejective of every human first and foremost,

2505
01:56:26,720 --> 01:56:29,920
is to believe as many true things and as few

2506
01:56:30,199 --> 01:56:34,000
false things as possible, because by believing false things, you

2507
01:56:34,079 --> 01:56:35,880
can hurt yourself and you can hurt.

2508
01:56:35,760 --> 01:56:38,039
Speaker 2: People you care about. Do you believe that? Do you

2509
01:56:38,159 --> 01:56:40,319
agree with that? That's all I'm asking? Yes or no.

2510
01:56:42,199 --> 01:56:43,720
Speaker 6: I'm alive in.

2511
01:56:43,840 --> 01:56:48,680
Speaker 5: The truth, that of who I am in the Jackson?

2512
01:56:48,720 --> 01:56:53,399
Speaker 8: Your answer unresponsive, Hold on the God that I follow.

2513
01:56:54,039 --> 01:56:57,319
Speaker 5: I take that from a truth that I am alive

2514
01:56:57,439 --> 01:57:00,920
and because what I just heard, Jeannie.

2515
01:57:04,399 --> 01:57:06,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to mute you because you just

2516
01:57:06,720 --> 01:57:08,279
want to get on and talk about you feeling.

2517
01:57:08,399 --> 01:57:10,600
Speaker 2: Janie. Here's what I just heard. Do you believe that

2518
01:57:10,680 --> 01:57:12,600
it's the best thing to do is to believe as

2519
01:57:12,680 --> 01:57:14,720
many few true things and this youth false things as possible.

2520
01:57:15,279 --> 01:57:17,560
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah,

2521
01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:20,079
unresponsive like it was like, I don't know where to

2522
01:57:20,119 --> 01:57:20,560
go from here.

2523
01:57:20,560 --> 01:57:23,000
Speaker 1: I'm trying to give Pete the chance. We have another caller.

2524
01:57:23,399 --> 01:57:24,479
What are your thoughts, Jamie.

2525
01:57:24,960 --> 01:57:27,520
Speaker 14: It is quite frustrating to speak to you, Pete. I

2526
01:57:27,880 --> 01:57:29,800
would love to try. I don't want to keep this

2527
01:57:29,960 --> 01:57:32,840
call running longer than it needs to. But every time

2528
01:57:33,000 --> 01:57:35,680
we try and get to a salient point, you dodge,

2529
01:57:36,560 --> 01:57:43,000
and I find personal anecdote and personal experience thoroughly unconvincing.

2530
01:57:43,199 --> 01:57:44,399
So I could let you talk.

2531
01:57:44,920 --> 01:57:45,279
Speaker 6: I could.

2532
01:57:45,600 --> 01:57:50,159
Speaker 14: I could have Greg kick Graham off the stream and

2533
01:57:50,319 --> 01:57:53,600
give you the flaw for an hour, and you could

2534
01:57:53,640 --> 01:57:58,279
tell me every single experience and quote unquote truth that

2535
01:57:58,479 --> 01:58:02,760
you live in and I'd be completely unconvinced. I know

2536
01:58:02,880 --> 01:58:05,079
I would be, because it would all just be you

2537
01:58:05,319 --> 01:58:11,840
telling me stories. They're just stories, Pete. And I've experienced

2538
01:58:11,840 --> 01:58:14,800
a lot of wacky shit in my life too, things

2539
01:58:14,880 --> 01:58:20,119
I couldn't explain, but I would rather say I don't

2540
01:58:20,399 --> 01:58:24,359
know than fill in the gaps with a god or

2541
01:58:24,399 --> 01:58:27,840
a spirituality or some other kind of wu. And the

2542
01:58:28,039 --> 01:58:31,920
reason why not to get super serious is that people

2543
01:58:32,159 --> 01:58:35,960
are using the arguments you're giving us to justify things

2544
01:58:36,319 --> 01:58:40,560
like taking away people's human rights, putting into place laws

2545
01:58:40,640 --> 01:58:45,159
that hurt people, demonizing entire swaths of the population, such

2546
01:58:45,199 --> 01:58:47,760
as the LGBTQ. So when you come to me with

2547
01:58:47,800 --> 01:58:50,560
your innocence, I think that God exists because my mum's

2548
01:58:51,159 --> 01:58:54,840
because of a feeling, basically, and that's my truth. Other

2549
01:58:54,920 --> 01:58:58,079
people are coming to me with that exact same methodology

2550
01:58:58,159 --> 01:59:01,479
of thought, but they're not justifying precognition. They're just to

2551
01:59:01,560 --> 01:59:06,039
find genocide. So that's why I'm angry at this call. Okay,

2552
01:59:06,159 --> 01:59:07,319
do you understand that, Pete?

2553
01:59:08,640 --> 01:59:11,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna mute Pete and see if we did an

2554
01:59:11,039 --> 01:59:17,800
answer for so, Pete, will you please let me talk?

2555
01:59:18,760 --> 01:59:23,399
Speaker 2: The question is will you please respond to what Jamie

2556
01:59:23,479 --> 01:59:24,359
said directly?

2557
01:59:26,880 --> 01:59:30,079
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's painting me as a communist and I'm a

2558
01:59:30,159 --> 01:59:30,840
follower of.

2559
01:59:32,560 --> 01:59:36,119
Speaker 2: Right bye bye yea. I have a good day, boy,

2560
01:59:36,239 --> 01:59:37,479
that went on longer than I should have.

2561
01:59:38,840 --> 01:59:39,159
Speaker 6: Thank you.

2562
01:59:39,560 --> 01:59:41,359
Speaker 14: We have a caller in the queue, and thank you

2563
01:59:41,479 --> 01:59:43,720
for your patience. Next caller, we will get to you

2564
01:59:43,960 --> 01:59:44,680
it presently.

2565
01:59:45,680 --> 01:59:50,800
Speaker 1: So it seems to be let me, let me give

2566
01:59:50,840 --> 01:59:52,960
advice to Pete and anybody like him who feel him.

2567
01:59:53,000 --> 01:59:55,079
I had a caller like this last time I was on,

2568
01:59:55,199 --> 01:59:57,520
who admitted, who was much more engaged.

2569
01:59:57,800 --> 01:59:59,000
Speaker 2: She was very honest, and.

2570
01:59:59,000 --> 02:00:02,359
Speaker 1: It's just like, well, all these people have, all these experiences,

2571
02:00:02,399 --> 02:00:04,319
got to be right, like it just feels right and

2572
02:00:04,359 --> 02:00:06,399
all of that stuff. And she was much more honest

2573
02:00:06,560 --> 02:00:08,279
than Pete was being. Pete wants to get on and

2574
02:00:08,359 --> 02:00:10,600
whine about this, that and the other thing. I have

2575
02:00:10,840 --> 02:00:13,279
questions about whether or not he was genuine. I'm going

2576
02:00:13,359 --> 02:00:14,359
to assume that he was.

2577
02:00:15,720 --> 02:00:18,840
Speaker 2: But it seems to me inherently like almost.

2578
02:00:19,159 --> 02:00:23,159
Speaker 1: Just a given that the best plan for everybody is

2579
02:00:23,239 --> 02:00:25,039
to believe as many true things and as hue false

2580
02:00:25,079 --> 02:00:28,000
things as possible. And it goes to exactly what you're

2581
02:00:28,000 --> 02:00:30,279
talking about and exactly what I mentioned in my cold open.

2582
02:00:30,359 --> 02:00:32,920
We have people in the US military now at very

2583
02:00:33,000 --> 02:00:36,880
high levels, the highest levels saying the war and Iran's

2584
02:00:36,960 --> 02:00:39,279
good because it's going to bring about the end of

2585
02:00:39,359 --> 02:00:39,960
life on earth.

2586
02:00:41,199 --> 02:00:43,359
Speaker 2: This is what we're dealing with. So it's all fine

2587
02:00:43,399 --> 02:00:44,279
and cute for you to.

2588
02:00:44,359 --> 02:00:47,600
Speaker 1: Live your lived life and live, laugh, learn and do

2589
02:00:47,760 --> 02:00:52,079
all of your wu shit. But in my experience as

2590
02:00:52,119 --> 02:00:56,039
an attorney and as somebody here doing a host, anytime

2591
02:00:56,119 --> 02:00:58,680
I ask somebody a question and they start using that

2592
02:00:58,880 --> 02:01:02,279
fuzzy word multiple times, all of that language that doesn't

2593
02:01:02,319 --> 02:01:07,159
address it means they really know deep down inside they.

2594
02:01:07,079 --> 02:01:08,159
Speaker 2: Don't want to talk about it.

2595
02:01:08,479 --> 02:01:10,399
Speaker 1: It's like somebody going up in front of Congress and

2596
02:01:10,439 --> 02:01:12,920
being asked a question and screaming that the Dow is

2597
02:01:12,960 --> 02:01:15,359
over fifty thousand a day and that's what we should

2598
02:01:15,359 --> 02:01:16,560
be talking about instead.

2599
02:01:16,239 --> 02:01:16,600
Speaker 2: Of the question.

2600
02:01:16,640 --> 02:01:17,399
Speaker 6: I was just yeah.

2601
02:01:17,399 --> 02:01:21,720
Speaker 14: And I work adjacent in the medical field. I work

2602
02:01:21,760 --> 02:01:24,439
for a charity that helps cancer patients in my day job.

2603
02:01:24,960 --> 02:01:29,960
And belief trust me bad. Belief kills people believe in,

2604
02:01:30,600 --> 02:01:33,159
like the certain thing they want to do certain treatments

2605
02:01:33,199 --> 02:01:36,399
because it's poison or evil, and they believe that these

2606
02:01:36,439 --> 02:01:38,159
other things are going to work for them, and it

2607
02:01:38,359 --> 02:01:40,680
costs lives, and that.

2608
02:01:40,840 --> 02:01:43,960
Speaker 2: You don't have to be dumb either. Look at Steve Jobs.

2609
02:01:44,159 --> 02:01:48,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, had treatable cancer, chose for the WU, chose for

2610
02:01:48,239 --> 02:01:50,399
what felt true to him, died.

2611
02:01:50,800 --> 02:01:52,720
Speaker 6: Yeah. Anyway, shall we?

2612
02:01:53,399 --> 02:01:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah?

2613
02:01:53,880 --> 02:01:54,119
Speaker 5: Move on?

2614
02:01:54,720 --> 02:01:57,880
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you. So we have one

2615
02:01:57,920 --> 02:01:58,560
more caller.

2616
02:01:59,079 --> 02:02:02,359
Speaker 1: The name is markis from New Zealand wants to talk

2617
02:02:02,399 --> 02:02:07,399
about their belief in God and miracles from precognition. Sounds

2618
02:02:07,520 --> 02:02:11,840
very similar here, So Marcus, can you hear us?

2619
02:02:12,079 --> 02:02:14,760
Speaker 2: Are you online? Let's hold on, we're connecting, and what

2620
02:02:14,960 --> 02:02:16,680
is it specifically you'd like to talk about?

2621
02:02:19,880 --> 02:02:20,000
Speaker 5: Hi?

2622
02:02:20,960 --> 02:02:22,760
Speaker 7: What's your name again?

2623
02:02:23,600 --> 02:02:26,000
Speaker 1: I'm the cross Examiner. My name is Graham, and Jamie

2624
02:02:26,119 --> 02:02:29,479
is the other host. And the question is, I guess you,

2625
02:02:29,800 --> 02:02:31,960
what do you believe? And more importantly, why.

2626
02:02:33,800 --> 02:02:39,199
Speaker 7: I believe in God because of so much weird stuff

2627
02:02:39,279 --> 02:02:42,520
in the world. I mean, there's so much good stuff

2628
02:02:42,520 --> 02:02:46,920
in the world that cannot be that indicates from me

2629
02:02:47,039 --> 02:02:50,239
thataters of God. I don't like his belief. I'm I

2630
02:02:50,640 --> 02:02:53,399
used to be a Christian, but like I now am

2631
02:02:53,479 --> 02:02:57,039
more of a usual taste. I'm believing God but don't

2632
02:02:57,199 --> 02:02:57,359
like it.

2633
02:02:57,720 --> 02:03:04,439
Speaker 1: I don't like God, but okay, so let me break

2634
02:03:04,479 --> 02:03:06,880
it down for Jamie and I want to categorize some

2635
02:03:06,960 --> 02:03:10,399
answers here so we can understand this. You believe that

2636
02:03:10,680 --> 02:03:13,239
a god, whatever that means to you, is real and

2637
02:03:13,319 --> 02:03:15,279
it exists in reality somewhere.

2638
02:03:15,359 --> 02:03:15,680
Speaker 2: Correct.

2639
02:03:16,720 --> 02:03:21,159
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, you also said that you don't like the

2640
02:03:21,359 --> 02:03:24,560
fact that this god exists in your belief system that

2641
02:03:24,640 --> 02:03:28,359
you think you think is it proper to say that

2642
02:03:28,479 --> 02:03:30,920
you that's because you think this god is evil.

2643
02:03:33,079 --> 02:03:36,720
Speaker 7: I think that this God is I don't know if

2644
02:03:36,800 --> 02:03:42,399
coming evil would be like correct, because if our moralitity

2645
02:03:42,560 --> 02:03:45,680
comes from him, then everything he does is good. But

2646
02:03:45,840 --> 02:03:48,880
I think you'll do damage to me and damage to

2647
02:03:49,520 --> 02:03:52,720
people I love, So I think I think he's bad

2648
02:03:52,800 --> 02:03:53,079
for me.

2649
02:03:54,199 --> 02:03:56,439
Speaker 2: So what evidence do you have that this person exists

2650
02:03:56,680 --> 02:03:57,600
or this god exists.

2651
02:04:00,399 --> 02:04:09,680
Speaker 7: Well, well, I come from a seventy Adventist family and

2652
02:04:11,520 --> 02:04:14,720
have a prophet. Alan Whitak claimed she was able to

2653
02:04:14,800 --> 02:04:18,279
see the future about a meeting that's going to occure.

2654
02:04:19,279 --> 02:04:21,920
It's an each topic. Sorry, it's an each topic. You

2655
02:04:22,039 --> 02:04:23,920
may not know about it because.

2656
02:04:23,640 --> 02:04:26,159
Speaker 1: I'm actually somewhat familiar with it. But let's cut to

2657
02:04:26,279 --> 02:04:29,720
the chase. Do you believe this because of a story

2658
02:04:29,800 --> 02:04:31,199
that was told to you? Is that a way to

2659
02:04:31,239 --> 02:04:33,239
summarize it. You were told the story about the profit

2660
02:04:33,359 --> 02:04:36,079
and a prophecy or multiple prophecies coming true.

2661
02:04:37,880 --> 02:04:41,199
Speaker 7: No, because there was written evidence. I mean, there is

2662
02:04:41,279 --> 02:04:48,720
a manuscript manuscript sixteen nineteen eight, nineteen ninety sorry, that

2663
02:04:50,319 --> 02:04:54,039
is written four months before the meeting and discusses exactly

2664
02:04:54,119 --> 02:04:56,119
what the meeting was going to be about.

2665
02:04:56,600 --> 02:04:59,399
Speaker 1: You realize that that is a story that I'm talking about, right,

2666
02:04:59,560 --> 02:05:02,039
the story You were told that this manuscript existed, that

2667
02:05:02,159 --> 02:05:04,319
it perfectly described what happened in the meeting, that the

2668
02:05:04,399 --> 02:05:07,159
meeting actually took place, that the meeting did match up

2669
02:05:07,199 --> 02:05:10,119
with the manuscript, that the manuscript was written before that That's.

2670
02:05:09,960 --> 02:05:11,720
Speaker 2: All a story that was told to you. And I'm

2671
02:05:11,760 --> 02:05:14,159
not trying to use that in a pejorative I e.

2672
02:05:14,760 --> 02:05:16,920
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or that

2673
02:05:17,039 --> 02:05:21,439
that's something I want to sort of throw shade at that.

2674
02:05:22,159 --> 02:05:24,720
But you weren't there, You didn't witness it, et cetera,

2675
02:05:24,760 --> 02:05:27,600
et cetera. You were told this by a book or

2676
02:05:27,800 --> 02:05:34,159
a person, right, Yeah, Okay, Jamie had a comic question.

2677
02:05:35,000 --> 02:05:38,199
Speaker 14: Yeah, I mean that I always and again, if this

2678
02:05:38,279 --> 02:05:40,720
has been convincing to you, I mean, part of me

2679
02:05:40,920 --> 02:05:43,600
does want to go into the details of what was

2680
02:05:43,640 --> 02:05:47,479
the what was the prophecy, how was it fulfilled? Because

2681
02:05:48,880 --> 02:05:54,039
actual precognition has to be specific, unique and novel like

2682
02:05:54,119 --> 02:05:57,000
it has to it has to be like bang on uh.

2683
02:05:57,279 --> 02:06:00,000
And even at that, how can you how can you

2684
02:06:00,199 --> 02:06:03,079
know it's not just coincidence? I mean knowing what's going

2685
02:06:03,159 --> 02:06:05,560
to happen at a meeting before a meeting. I have

2686
02:06:05,800 --> 02:06:08,079
that power because I know I go into a meeting

2687
02:06:08,119 --> 02:06:10,840
at work, We're going to be talking about work related shit.

2688
02:06:11,079 --> 02:06:13,479
We're going to be talking about documents that we share

2689
02:06:13,520 --> 02:06:16,640
from We're going to be talking about policies that are

2690
02:06:16,680 --> 02:06:17,439
coming up here.

2691
02:06:17,359 --> 02:06:19,920
Speaker 1: And Benny from accounting is going to object and you

2692
02:06:20,279 --> 02:06:22,840
can get pretty specific. I agree, but I would avoid

2693
02:06:22,960 --> 02:06:25,319
getting into the deal. So yeah, Like, I don't think

2694
02:06:25,520 --> 02:06:28,199
what we need to know is it's what I would

2695
02:06:28,239 --> 02:06:32,279
call in legal profession hearsay. Somebody told you something or

2696
02:06:32,319 --> 02:06:36,039
you read something not firsthand, and you have decided to

2697
02:06:36,159 --> 02:06:38,560
accept it. Why did you decide to accept that it

2698
02:06:38,640 --> 02:06:38,960
was true?

2699
02:06:41,319 --> 02:06:45,319
Speaker 7: Or because there is a document that you.

2700
02:06:46,640 --> 02:06:52,840
Speaker 1: Can Marcus, I'm going to save you some time. You

2701
02:06:53,079 --> 02:06:56,720
just did a circular argument. I believe that the document

2702
02:06:57,399 --> 02:07:00,319
is true. And did this thing and predicted this because

2703
02:07:00,359 --> 02:07:04,479
there is a document. So you're citing the story to

2704
02:07:04,600 --> 02:07:07,039
tell me why the story is true. Do you have

2705
02:07:07,119 --> 02:07:10,920
anything outside the story to confirm that any of these

2706
02:07:10,960 --> 02:07:13,359
things happened. This is the same as somebody coming up

2707
02:07:13,399 --> 02:07:17,079
to say, I believe that Jesus Christ is God because

2708
02:07:17,119 --> 02:07:18,880
these people witnessed his resurrection.

2709
02:07:19,520 --> 02:07:23,039
Speaker 2: Okay, what evidence do you have that that it's true?

2710
02:07:23,479 --> 02:07:23,600
Speaker 4: Oh?

2711
02:07:23,640 --> 02:07:26,760
Speaker 1: Well, these people witness the resurrection. Well, you don't even

2712
02:07:26,760 --> 02:07:28,199
know if those people exist. You don't know if they

2713
02:07:28,239 --> 02:07:30,720
were misled or seeing things like there's a whole bunch

2714
02:07:30,760 --> 02:07:35,039
of things. But so what Why do you believe the

2715
02:07:35,279 --> 02:07:36,239
story as a whole?

2716
02:07:39,039 --> 02:07:39,159
Speaker 11: Uh?

2717
02:07:40,640 --> 02:07:44,680
Speaker 7: Because if it was a fraud, why people could ease

2718
02:07:44,920 --> 02:07:48,880
the Bunket? But why didn't they? I mean why did

2719
02:07:48,960 --> 02:07:53,520
the Uh? There's a person in that building was later

2720
02:07:53,680 --> 02:07:58,600
turned against the church and made their magazine the Bunking

2721
02:07:58,680 --> 02:07:59,840
that the paramo Alma.

2722
02:08:00,600 --> 02:08:03,000
Speaker 2: Do you believe Do you believe that Mormonism is true?

2723
02:08:05,720 --> 02:08:11,239
Speaker 7: I mean, I mean Joseph Smith announced his weaknesses.

2724
02:08:12,319 --> 02:08:13,279
Speaker 2: Do you believe that's true?

2725
02:08:15,560 --> 02:08:18,279
Speaker 7: It's possible, Yeah, it's possible. He saw a name.

2726
02:08:18,520 --> 02:08:19,560
Speaker 2: Do you believe it's true?

2727
02:08:19,640 --> 02:08:19,680
Speaker 9: Not?

2728
02:08:19,880 --> 02:08:20,680
Speaker 2: Is it possible.

2729
02:08:20,760 --> 02:08:23,319
Speaker 1: Do you believe that it's true because their version of

2730
02:08:23,359 --> 02:08:25,800
God contradicts your version of God, so they both can't

2731
02:08:25,840 --> 02:08:30,039
beat right. Do you believe that the Latter day Saints'

2732
02:08:30,359 --> 02:08:31,960
version of God is true?

2733
02:08:36,199 --> 02:08:36,319
Speaker 7: Uh?

2734
02:08:40,119 --> 02:08:43,399
Speaker 1: No, Okay, they make the exact same claim you did.

2735
02:08:45,159 --> 02:08:47,600
Lots of people could have debunked the story about Joseph

2736
02:08:47,600 --> 02:08:50,880
Smith using the seeing stones in his hat to translate

2737
02:08:50,960 --> 02:08:56,439
the Golden plates, and nobody has, therefore it's true. Do

2738
02:08:56,479 --> 02:09:00,920
you see why that's not a good argument. First of all,

2739
02:09:01,239 --> 02:09:04,119
you can make claims that can't be debunked. I was

2740
02:09:04,159 --> 02:09:05,680
in the closet and I heard a voice and it

2741
02:09:05,720 --> 02:09:07,319
told me about this, and it predicted that when I

2742
02:09:07,359 --> 02:09:07,840
walked out, I.

2743
02:09:07,840 --> 02:09:11,000
Speaker 2: Would see this, and it did. You can't debunk that story.

2744
02:09:11,159 --> 02:09:12,359
Doesn't mean it's true.

2745
02:09:12,560 --> 02:09:14,119
Speaker 14: It's one of the major things that we come up

2746
02:09:14,159 --> 02:09:17,359
against that is very frustrating. And it's called an unfalsifiable claim.

2747
02:09:18,000 --> 02:09:19,840
God is real and I will believe in him until

2748
02:09:19,840 --> 02:09:21,680
you can prove he isn't real. And I'm like, that's

2749
02:09:21,800 --> 02:09:25,039
not possible. So you're so you just set us up

2750
02:09:25,239 --> 02:09:28,800
for a no win situation, not to find truth, but

2751
02:09:29,000 --> 02:09:32,840
to defend your feeling and your faith basically, And it's

2752
02:09:32,840 --> 02:09:37,479
a similar here, like believing something's true until it's proven

2753
02:09:37,600 --> 02:09:40,039
not to be true is a bad way to go

2754
02:09:40,199 --> 02:09:44,319
about truth because again that can you can believe a

2755
02:09:44,399 --> 02:09:48,199
load of really really harmful, untrue things. And if you're

2756
02:09:48,239 --> 02:09:51,039
waiting for someone else to come and debunk those notions

2757
02:09:51,640 --> 02:09:54,760
before you stop believing in them, that's a that's a

2758
02:09:55,000 --> 02:09:57,159
that's a dark road. Mark is you don't want to

2759
02:09:57,199 --> 02:09:57,880
go down that way?

2760
02:09:59,079 --> 02:09:59,279
Speaker 4: Yeah?

2761
02:10:00,199 --> 02:10:03,640
Speaker 7: No, Like I said, I'm not a Christian and asty,

2762
02:10:04,640 --> 02:10:09,880
but like let's put in like evidence for and again.

2763
02:10:09,680 --> 02:10:11,880
Speaker 1: Hold on, I'm going to let you do the evidence,

2764
02:10:12,000 --> 02:10:13,840
but I want you to actually respond to the point

2765
02:10:13,920 --> 02:10:14,520
we just made.

2766
02:10:15,000 --> 02:10:16,680
Speaker 2: Do you agree that.

2767
02:10:18,359 --> 02:10:23,039
Speaker 1: Nobody's debunked it yet is not a good reliable way

2768
02:10:23,119 --> 02:10:24,079
to get to the truth?

2769
02:10:28,680 --> 02:10:35,840
Speaker 7: Um? I, it depends. It depends.

2770
02:10:36,319 --> 02:10:40,039
Speaker 1: It can't depend. It's either reliable or it's unreliable. It

2771
02:10:40,119 --> 02:10:40,840
can't depend.

2772
02:10:42,279 --> 02:10:43,119
Speaker 2: Nobody's debunked it.

2773
02:10:43,279 --> 02:10:47,319
Speaker 1: Nobody's debunked the claim about Allah splitting the moon, Therefore,

2774
02:10:48,000 --> 02:10:52,479
therefore Islam must be true. Nobody's debunked the claim that

2775
02:10:52,800 --> 02:10:56,479
the Buddha fell from wherever it was, Therefore Buddhism must

2776
02:10:56,520 --> 02:10:59,920
be true. Nobody's debunked the claim that the lackness monster

2777
02:11:00,119 --> 02:11:02,760
or exists, Therefore the block desk monster must be true.

2778
02:11:03,439 --> 02:11:07,000
You can believe anything as long as nobody's debunked it's

2779
02:11:07,680 --> 02:11:11,079
it's it's a circular argument. I'm going to believe something

2780
02:11:11,159 --> 02:11:15,479
until somebody's proved that it's not believable. Well, then you

2781
02:11:15,560 --> 02:11:19,159
believe everything, and you believe contrabiictory things. I can't be

2782
02:11:19,920 --> 02:11:24,000
Muslim and Christian and Seventh day Adventist and Latter day

2783
02:11:24,079 --> 02:11:27,199
Saints and Buddhists and believe all of the claims about

2784
02:11:27,199 --> 02:11:30,720
those religions simultaneously because many of them contradict So it's

2785
02:11:30,880 --> 02:11:34,520
not a reliable way to truth. Science doesn't use it,

2786
02:11:34,600 --> 02:11:37,319
and science is the most reliable way to truth we've found.

2787
02:11:37,439 --> 02:11:41,479
But I'm open to others. Have I convinced you that

2788
02:11:42,560 --> 02:11:45,760
nobody's debunked it yet is a poor way.

2789
02:11:45,920 --> 02:11:48,520
Speaker 2: To find the truth. It's not reliable. Are you convinced

2790
02:11:48,560 --> 02:11:48,760
by that?

2791
02:11:51,439 --> 02:11:51,680
Speaker 4: Well?

2792
02:11:52,399 --> 02:11:55,960
Speaker 7: I mean, like in now examples you they make it

2793
02:11:56,119 --> 02:12:01,159
it's like obvious, like like I'm being display at the

2794
02:12:01,239 --> 02:12:02,800
moment because the mom is in spirit.

2795
02:12:03,399 --> 02:12:07,079
Speaker 2: Okay, Marcus, Oh, I can't magic that bit back together.

2796
02:12:07,359 --> 02:12:08,520
Speaker 6: Wait. Wait, wait, nobody's debunked.

2797
02:12:08,560 --> 02:12:11,039
Speaker 1: No, hold on, hold on, I can't magic that back together.

2798
02:12:11,279 --> 02:12:14,760
Come on that you're you're arguing about details. You're arguing

2799
02:12:14,800 --> 02:12:17,119
about details. I think this is a very core issue.

2800
02:12:17,159 --> 02:12:18,600
If you were on jury, if you were on a

2801
02:12:18,680 --> 02:12:22,800
jury trial for murder, and the medical examiner was asked,

2802
02:12:23,239 --> 02:12:27,359
how can you tell that your theory about the level

2803
02:12:27,439 --> 02:12:30,880
of oxygen saturation in this person's blood is right, that's

2804
02:12:31,000 --> 02:12:31,960
not in the textbooks.

2805
02:12:32,000 --> 02:12:32,920
Speaker 2: You just have come up with it.

2806
02:12:33,199 --> 02:12:36,319
Speaker 1: And he said, well, nobody's argued against me so far.

2807
02:12:36,520 --> 02:12:38,359
Would you be like, that's right, this guy is guilty.

2808
02:12:38,439 --> 02:12:41,079
Let's let's send him to the electric chair. I hope

2809
02:12:41,119 --> 02:12:43,600
to think you wouldn't do that, would you?

2810
02:12:45,560 --> 02:12:45,600
Speaker 7: No?

2811
02:12:46,520 --> 02:12:49,520
Speaker 1: Okay, So when it really matters, and when we're dealing

2812
02:12:49,600 --> 02:12:53,560
with reality, you agree, go ahead, go ahead, Jamie.

2813
02:12:53,680 --> 02:12:55,479
Speaker 14: I was going to basically make the same point, because

2814
02:12:55,479 --> 02:12:58,640
I'm saying, let's let's take it down to non supernatural beliefs.

2815
02:12:58,960 --> 02:13:01,239
And I was actually gonna use murder like, we know that,

2816
02:13:01,439 --> 02:13:03,680
we know that children exist, we know that murder happens.

2817
02:13:04,119 --> 02:13:05,640
How do you feel if I say I believe you

2818
02:13:05,720 --> 02:13:08,600
murdered a child, Marcus and I'm going to keep believing

2819
02:13:08,640 --> 02:13:12,279
that until you prove me wrong. How'd you feel about it?

2820
02:13:13,359 --> 02:13:16,800
I say, you have no evidence for it, And I say,

2821
02:13:16,880 --> 02:13:19,880
you have no evidence but for your belief at this point,

2822
02:13:20,079 --> 02:13:23,800
So shall we? Sabertis listen to what the actual evidence is.

2823
02:13:24,239 --> 02:13:25,920
Speaker 2: I think that's where he was going. Go ahead and Marcus,

2824
02:13:26,119 --> 02:13:26,439
go ahead.

2825
02:13:27,199 --> 02:13:31,079
Speaker 7: Yeah, So, like I said, there is evidence for it.

2826
02:13:31,159 --> 02:13:34,439
There's a manuscript that I was reading four months before.

2827
02:13:35,840 --> 02:13:36,479
Speaker 6: Okay, what is it?

2828
02:13:36,800 --> 02:13:39,239
Speaker 2: It was written four months before? Prove it?

2829
02:13:41,520 --> 02:13:45,880
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, yeah, prove that the woman.

2830
02:13:46,359 --> 02:13:49,800
Speaker 1: Really saw Jesus resurrected. You see the similarities. You're telling

2831
02:13:49,880 --> 02:13:52,880
a story and the background of the story hasn't even

2832
02:13:52,920 --> 02:13:53,399
been proven.

2833
02:13:54,359 --> 02:13:57,359
Speaker 2: You can't prove these things. It's just claims.

2834
02:13:58,359 --> 02:13:58,520
Speaker 4: Now.

2835
02:13:59,439 --> 02:14:00,920
Speaker 2: Would there be a way to prove all of this?

2836
02:14:01,399 --> 02:14:03,039
I don't know if at the time it happened that

2837
02:14:03,119 --> 02:14:06,399
there would, but you can't right now. That's my point.

2838
02:14:06,439 --> 02:14:07,479
But please do continue.

2839
02:14:07,640 --> 02:14:10,079
Speaker 1: I just want you to acknowledge you just asserted as

2840
02:14:10,159 --> 02:14:13,000
true something that may be in dispute. Was it really

2841
02:14:13,039 --> 02:14:15,359
written that long ago? You're just repeating the story that

2842
02:14:15,479 --> 02:14:15,760
it was.

2843
02:14:15,880 --> 02:14:22,720
Speaker 7: Go ahead, yeah, I mean I can get into this

2844
02:14:22,880 --> 02:14:27,359
sort of sketicism. But like if like the guys at

2845
02:14:27,399 --> 02:14:30,840
the White State where they keep up the documents are professionals,

2846
02:14:31,279 --> 02:14:34,039
and yes they are by you could say there.

2847
02:14:33,920 --> 02:14:36,119
Speaker 14: Okay, Okay, for the sake of argument, we'll say the

2848
02:14:36,199 --> 02:14:40,000
document was four months before is and is not forged,

2849
02:14:40,159 --> 02:14:41,439
and it has not been tampered with.

2850
02:14:41,840 --> 02:14:43,680
Speaker 6: What does it actually say?

2851
02:14:46,920 --> 02:14:49,840
Speaker 7: I tell you that's the document?

2852
02:14:51,720 --> 02:14:54,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, what Jamie saying. Okay, let's give you all the

2853
02:14:54,600 --> 02:14:56,760
toys to play with. Let's say the background of the

2854
02:14:56,840 --> 02:14:58,319
story is true. There was a document.

2855
02:14:58,359 --> 02:14:58,920
Speaker 2: What does it say?

2856
02:14:59,199 --> 02:15:01,079
Speaker 1: This is going to lead sort of talking about the

2857
02:15:01,399 --> 02:15:04,800
So what about a coincidence? But go ahead, where does

2858
02:15:04,840 --> 02:15:08,039
the document describe? Give us the top three most amazing

2859
02:15:08,119 --> 02:15:09,000
things they predicted?

2860
02:15:10,960 --> 02:15:17,479
Speaker 7: He predicted that the editors at a at a Viral

2861
02:15:17,560 --> 02:15:21,760
Creek location would drop the Sabbath from the American Sentinel

2862
02:15:21,840 --> 02:15:27,199
magazine four months before they they actually sat down and

2863
02:15:27,319 --> 02:15:27,920
discussed this.

2864
02:15:28,840 --> 02:15:31,279
Speaker 2: Okay, it was the next most amazing thing. It predicted.

2865
02:15:38,640 --> 02:15:42,680
Speaker 7: It predicted the pressure for dropping the Sabbath at the magazine.

2866
02:15:43,600 --> 02:15:43,920
Speaker 6: Okay?

2867
02:15:44,640 --> 02:15:48,680
Speaker 14: Was this a sentiment that was that was being discussed casually?

2868
02:15:50,479 --> 02:15:52,760
Speaker 1: If he said no, we don't believe him. He says yes,

2869
02:15:53,600 --> 02:15:56,640
you know, like it doesn't matter, like when you start

2870
02:15:56,680 --> 02:16:00,359
getting in. The most amazing thing is, hey, a magazine's

2871
02:16:00,359 --> 02:16:04,319
gonna drop a feature, Like I'm waiting for it to

2872
02:16:04,439 --> 02:16:11,640
predict that on Tuesday, February tenth, nineteen ninety seven, at

2873
02:16:11,680 --> 02:16:14,000
the intersection of State and Elm, there will be a

2874
02:16:14,159 --> 02:16:17,319
red camera running through at seventy two miles an hour,

2875
02:16:17,640 --> 02:16:20,399
and it's gonna hit this van that's a silver Honda,

2876
02:16:20,640 --> 02:16:23,840
and two of the right hip caps on this particular

2877
02:16:24,000 --> 02:16:26,560
car are gonna fly off and hit a squirrel that's

2878
02:16:26,560 --> 02:16:29,079
in the tree. Both headcuts are gonna hit this squirrel

2879
02:16:29,119 --> 02:16:31,159
and it's gonna knock it dead. But then when people

2880
02:16:31,199 --> 02:16:33,000
walk up and touch the squirrel, it's gonna come alive,

2881
02:16:33,040 --> 02:16:35,319
and it's gonna run off, and then it's eagle's gonna

2882
02:16:35,319 --> 02:16:37,680
swoop in and capture.

2883
02:16:37,360 --> 02:16:38,760
Speaker 2: The squirrel and fly away with it.

2884
02:16:39,399 --> 02:16:42,120
Speaker 1: That would be impressive if somebody wrote that all out

2885
02:16:42,239 --> 02:16:44,959
and could even manage to make that happen, trying to

2886
02:16:45,000 --> 02:16:47,079
make it happen much less have it be a coincidence.

2887
02:16:47,360 --> 02:16:50,159
And you're coming to us with a magazine drops a

2888
02:16:50,239 --> 02:16:53,840
feature from its coverage and four months ahead of like

2889
02:16:54,000 --> 02:16:57,479
after we predicted it in this document. That's that's your

2890
02:16:57,520 --> 02:17:07,920
evidence for God to quote to quote a few good men. Please,

2891
02:17:08,479 --> 02:17:10,559
these men are lives are on the line. Please tell

2892
02:17:10,600 --> 02:17:12,479
me you've come to me with more than phone calls

2893
02:17:12,520 --> 02:17:16,799
and foot lockers. Do you have something more impressive then

2894
02:17:17,200 --> 02:17:19,920
a document predicted a thing, And I can't even prove

2895
02:17:20,000 --> 02:17:22,159
that the document was actually written ahead of time.

2896
02:17:22,360 --> 02:17:27,079
Speaker 14: And that very mundane thing. Like, if I took that logic, Marcus,

2897
02:17:27,479 --> 02:17:29,920
then there are plenty of people I follow in the

2898
02:17:30,000 --> 02:17:32,879
video game space. You have like seemingly slope your wild

2899
02:17:32,959 --> 02:17:35,159
theories predicting what's going to be made next, what's going

2900
02:17:35,239 --> 02:17:37,000
to be happening, nixt just because they have a bit

2901
02:17:37,040 --> 02:17:41,399
of an innate sort of feeling about the industry because

2902
02:17:41,440 --> 02:17:43,719
they've been in it for so long. Like the fact

2903
02:17:43,760 --> 02:17:47,879
that Patava is his name predicted that there'd be an

2904
02:17:48,000 --> 02:17:52,200
English remake of the obscure Japanese game Metal Wolf Chaos

2905
02:17:53,120 --> 02:17:55,840
and then it was made. Does that make him a

2906
02:17:56,000 --> 02:17:59,280
profit of God? Or does that make him be a

2907
02:17:59,360 --> 02:18:04,360
bit savvag about the politics behind video game production? Because

2908
02:18:05,319 --> 02:18:08,479
it's the same amount of prediction, predictive power, and compulsion.

2909
02:18:10,000 --> 02:18:11,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are your thoughts Marcus, you know what do

2910
02:18:11,680 --> 02:18:11,920
you think?

2911
02:18:14,840 --> 02:18:18,559
Speaker 7: Like I said, I don't want you to same God

2912
02:18:18,719 --> 02:18:20,159
because I don't like him.

2913
02:18:20,360 --> 02:18:24,639
Speaker 14: But if someone proved to be without a shadow of

2914
02:18:24,639 --> 02:18:27,200
a doubt, that the Christian God was real, I still

2915
02:18:27,280 --> 02:18:30,000
wouldn't like him. It's not about whether we like him

2916
02:18:30,120 --> 02:18:33,000
or not, it's about whether he's actually real.

2917
02:18:33,479 --> 02:18:35,959
Speaker 1: Right, If Valdemort was real from Harry Potter, he'd be

2918
02:18:36,000 --> 02:18:39,920
an evil bastard. But if I was convinced he exists,

2919
02:18:39,959 --> 02:18:43,799
and then I'd treat it very seriously a real problem.

2920
02:18:43,879 --> 02:18:48,600
Speaker 2: But I don't think that a document And this.

2921
02:18:48,719 --> 02:18:52,440
Speaker 1: Ignores the dilemma we're dealing with now and the top

2922
02:18:52,520 --> 02:18:54,559
of the show where we talked about are called open.

2923
02:18:54,959 --> 02:18:58,319
It ignores the fact that a prediction that exists ahead

2924
02:18:58,319 --> 02:19:00,559
of time, that people are aware of and have access to,

2925
02:19:01,319 --> 02:19:04,079
can then be brought about the analogy that Matt Dilla

2926
02:19:04,159 --> 02:19:06,879
Hunt would always use. My version of it is I

2927
02:19:07,000 --> 02:19:09,840
tell my friend, Hey, I'm going into this deli. They're

2928
02:19:09,879 --> 02:19:12,040
going to serve me a ham sandwich. Watch and then

2929
02:19:12,079 --> 02:19:13,920
I go into the deli and I ask for a

2930
02:19:13,959 --> 02:19:18,840
ham sandwich. Was that a prophecy? No I worked to

2931
02:19:18,920 --> 02:19:21,680
bring it about. It's you know, like I predicted it

2932
02:19:21,680 --> 02:19:23,959
would happen. Sure, but maybe they were going to be

2933
02:19:24,000 --> 02:19:26,319
out of ham that day. I could say, right, maybe

2934
02:19:26,920 --> 02:19:29,239
I predicted it. It's the same level of sort of

2935
02:19:29,440 --> 02:19:32,959
yawn when you come to this is just a magazine

2936
02:19:33,040 --> 02:19:33,680
dropped a feature.

2937
02:19:33,719 --> 02:19:36,799
Speaker 2: Do you have anything else? Any questions there? For Marcus?

2938
02:19:37,760 --> 02:19:39,440
Speaker 14: I would also the only other thing I would I

2939
02:19:39,479 --> 02:19:42,959
would I would encourage you is that a lot of

2940
02:19:43,000 --> 02:19:45,319
these calls we've had today is people counting the hits

2941
02:19:45,319 --> 02:19:49,879
and disregarding the missus. How many documents were written about

2942
02:19:49,959 --> 02:19:53,440
upcoming meetings that didn't predict what was going to be

2943
02:19:53,559 --> 02:19:58,680
there or were inaccurate, I would wager a significantly larger

2944
02:19:58,799 --> 02:20:02,000
number than ones that sorry that last time.

2945
02:20:02,079 --> 02:20:04,440
Speaker 2: I would also say, don't discount you. You gave credit.

2946
02:20:04,559 --> 02:20:07,200
Speaker 1: Hey, these people who manage the records are professional.

2947
02:20:07,360 --> 02:20:08,000
Speaker 2: I agree with you.

2948
02:20:08,719 --> 02:20:13,280
Speaker 1: We have seen enough of humanity, both Charlatan's and very

2949
02:20:13,360 --> 02:20:16,280
serious people who will do what it takes to promote

2950
02:20:16,319 --> 02:20:18,399
their own religion. The story I tell all the time

2951
02:20:18,559 --> 02:20:21,440
is go look up and see how every state in

2952
02:20:21,639 --> 02:20:25,600
the United States except for one, put an exemption to

2953
02:20:26,399 --> 02:20:32,879
manslaughter into their laws because they wanted a loophole for

2954
02:20:33,159 --> 02:20:36,799
Christian science. Two people, Halderman and Erlikman I think it was,

2955
02:20:36,840 --> 02:20:43,680
were both Christian scientists. Under Nixon, Mondale was producing his

2956
02:20:43,840 --> 02:20:46,399
big signature. He was a big senator. He produced a

2957
02:20:46,520 --> 02:20:51,200
national legislation that said there was anti child abuse. We

2958
02:20:51,319 --> 02:20:53,680
were finally going to do something about child abuse. And

2959
02:20:53,959 --> 02:20:59,600
Eric Halderman and Erlickman saw that that law, if enforced,

2960
02:20:59,639 --> 02:21:02,479
would be the end of Christian science because by definition,

2961
02:21:02,600 --> 02:21:04,840
what they do is abuse to children that causes death,

2962
02:21:04,879 --> 02:21:07,120
and they would all go to jail. So they went

2963
02:21:07,239 --> 02:21:11,479
behind the scenes and put in a clause had had

2964
02:21:11,520 --> 02:21:15,319
the somebody introduced an amendment that puts in a It

2965
02:21:15,399 --> 02:21:18,520
wasn't even amendment. They promulgated rules that included an exception

2966
02:21:18,639 --> 02:21:22,959
for religious beliefs. If you deny your child desperately needed

2967
02:21:23,760 --> 02:21:29,159
medicine because you genuinely believed in Christian science or whatever,

2968
02:21:29,239 --> 02:21:31,280
that you had a firmly held religious belief that that

2969
02:21:31,319 --> 02:21:32,959
you should just pray over them rather than give them

2970
02:21:33,040 --> 02:21:35,559
all care, and the kid dies, under the law, you

2971
02:21:35,600 --> 02:21:38,520
would have been guilty of manslaughter because they acted. The

2972
02:21:38,639 --> 02:21:41,079
parents were not guilty of manslaughter. Do you know how

2973
02:21:41,159 --> 02:21:43,920
many kids died because they did that? Dirty trick, and

2974
02:21:44,040 --> 02:21:46,879
they were firm believers that everybody thought were great. Of

2975
02:21:46,959 --> 02:21:51,479
course until Watergate and they sort of lost their jobs.

2976
02:21:51,520 --> 02:21:55,239
But people will go to great lengths that you think

2977
02:21:55,399 --> 02:21:57,920
maybe are over the top to try to further their

2978
02:21:58,040 --> 02:22:01,319
cause because it either gives them personal setsisfaction see people

2979
02:22:01,399 --> 02:22:05,600
becoming trolls online, or because they benefit it financially see

2980
02:22:05,959 --> 02:22:10,440
Charlatan selling bullshit, or because they are religious fanatics see

2981
02:22:10,559 --> 02:22:14,360
Erlichmann and Hulderman. What are your thoughts, Marcus before we

2982
02:22:14,399 --> 02:22:14,879
wrap it up?

2983
02:22:19,840 --> 02:22:24,360
Speaker 7: It's just I come with arguments like nobody the bunket

2984
02:22:24,520 --> 02:22:28,920
yet that there could be the front, because it's interesting

2985
02:22:29,079 --> 02:22:34,920
that like, uh, skeptics don't interact much with the world

2986
02:22:35,000 --> 02:22:37,280
of Seven day Adventism, Like.

2987
02:22:37,319 --> 02:22:38,639
Speaker 2: Are you a skeptic?

2988
02:22:40,520 --> 02:22:43,799
Speaker 7: I'm not. I don't have the mentality to be one.

2989
02:22:43,920 --> 02:22:46,479
I like you, guys, sol what do you?

2990
02:22:46,799 --> 02:22:47,079
Speaker 5: What do you?

2991
02:22:47,319 --> 02:22:49,879
Speaker 2: What is yours? What do you think skeptic means? To

2992
02:22:49,959 --> 02:22:50,559
be a skeptic?

2993
02:22:52,799 --> 02:22:56,000
Speaker 7: It means that you kick out clam claims and even

2994
02:22:56,159 --> 02:22:58,520
evidence with a bit of thought that.

2995
02:22:58,680 --> 02:23:03,079
Speaker 1: You that's not my definition, Jamie, do you have a

2996
02:23:03,159 --> 02:23:04,600
definition of skepticism?

2997
02:23:05,000 --> 02:23:08,280
Speaker 14: Basically, a skeptic is someone who withholds their belief until

2998
02:23:08,319 --> 02:23:11,319
they are presented sufficient evidence to compel that belief, and

2999
02:23:11,479 --> 02:23:15,840
do not believe in anything outside of those circumstances, if

3000
02:23:15,879 --> 02:23:18,000
it's all possible. I'm not saying that I'm one hundred

3001
02:23:18,000 --> 02:23:20,399
percent skeptic. I have irrational thoughts and beliefs, but at

3002
02:23:20,479 --> 02:23:22,520
least I'm self aware enough to know that they are irrational.

3003
02:23:23,559 --> 02:23:25,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I would tend to agree with that.

3004
02:23:25,639 --> 02:23:29,239
Speaker 1: I withhold belief until I'm presented with and here's the keyword,

3005
02:23:29,479 --> 02:23:32,879
sufficient evidence, and then the argument just just over what's sufficient.

3006
02:23:33,360 --> 02:23:37,319
I think you're probably a skeptics, Marcus. You just you

3007
02:23:37,680 --> 02:23:40,319
think that evidence, some evidence is sufficient.

3008
02:23:39,959 --> 02:23:40,479
Speaker 2: And we don't.

3009
02:23:40,719 --> 02:23:41,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, raise you, Bob.

3010
02:23:42,079 --> 02:23:43,559
Speaker 1: You don't believe a guy that comes up to you

3011
02:23:43,639 --> 02:23:45,920
and says, hey, give me ten thousand dollars to day.

3012
02:23:46,000 --> 02:23:47,360
Speaker 2: I'm going to go put it in the back of

3013
02:23:47,399 --> 02:23:47,840
this van.

3014
02:23:48,120 --> 02:23:49,799
Speaker 1: I'm going to drive around for a week, and when

3015
02:23:49,840 --> 02:23:51,639
I come back, you'll have a million dollars because I'm

3016
02:23:51,639 --> 02:23:56,399
going to invest it. You wouldn't believe that, right, No, Yeah,

3017
02:23:56,639 --> 02:23:58,920
so you are a skeptic. You would demand evidence. You

3018
02:23:58,959 --> 02:24:01,639
would want to see show me your portfolio. I want

3019
02:24:01,680 --> 02:24:03,959
to watch this being done. Take me on van rides,

3020
02:24:04,399 --> 02:24:07,719
show me your papers. I'm going to go talk to

3021
02:24:07,799 --> 02:24:10,600
the local authorities and see if you've ever been investigated.

3022
02:24:10,680 --> 02:24:14,360
I'm like you would demand a shit ton of evidence

3023
02:24:14,760 --> 02:24:18,159
before you put your ten thousand dollars at risk. You're

3024
02:24:18,200 --> 02:24:20,360
not demanding the same amount of evidence when you put

3025
02:24:20,399 --> 02:24:23,479
your eternal soul and those of your families at risk.

3026
02:24:24,079 --> 02:24:24,799
Speaker 2: And I don't know why.

3027
02:24:25,639 --> 02:24:27,920
Speaker 14: I mean not to be a little bit cynical, but

3028
02:24:28,079 --> 02:24:30,559
I think it's because a lot of people, while they

3029
02:24:30,639 --> 02:24:32,719
say that the soul is the most important part of it,

3030
02:24:32,840 --> 02:24:35,840
because it can't really easily be proven, it's easy to

3031
02:24:36,120 --> 02:24:37,719
gamble with invisible money.

3032
02:24:38,760 --> 02:24:39,719
Speaker 2: That's a good way, wouldn't it.

3033
02:24:41,239 --> 02:24:43,239
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, Marcus, I appreciate I hope we gave

3034
02:24:43,280 --> 02:24:46,280
you something to talk to think about that you are

3035
02:24:46,360 --> 02:24:49,760
a skeptic, it's just that your sufficiency seems to be

3036
02:24:49,879 --> 02:24:52,280
out of whack. I think you should demand more evidence,

3037
02:24:52,319 --> 02:24:55,399
and you should not consider it rude. You should not

3038
02:24:55,520 --> 02:24:59,959
consider it improper or ownersome, or as a bad take

3039
02:25:00,000 --> 02:25:03,799
east or any of those adjectives or synonyms. It is

3040
02:25:03,920 --> 02:25:07,280
the proper way to go about your life if you

3041
02:25:07,399 --> 02:25:09,440
don't want to be harmed. And you can be harmed

3042
02:25:09,799 --> 02:25:11,959
big ways, like hey, I believe to this darker and

3043
02:25:12,040 --> 02:25:15,120
need cut my leg off by accident, and you can

3044
02:25:15,159 --> 02:25:17,840
be harmed by small ways. I've wasted an hour every

3045
02:25:17,920 --> 02:25:20,799
Sunday going to church for my whole life, like you

3046
02:25:20,840 --> 02:25:24,799
can still be harmed. Yeah, final thoughts there, Jamie, Jamie.

3047
02:25:25,399 --> 02:25:25,920
Speaker 6: Nothing really.

3048
02:25:25,959 --> 02:25:28,760
Speaker 14: Thank you for being Marcus. Thank you for being more

3049
02:25:29,319 --> 02:25:33,200
calm and accepting of the of the conversation. Marcus, we

3050
02:25:33,639 --> 02:25:37,040
appreciate that. I would also, I mean, I'm push my

3051
02:25:37,120 --> 02:25:41,879
invisible lessons. I'm actually I would say that Marcus engages

3052
02:25:42,000 --> 02:25:45,520
in skepticism, but like to make your worldview, to be

3053
02:25:45,680 --> 02:25:47,840
a skeptic is a conscious choice.

3054
02:25:47,879 --> 02:25:48,120
Speaker 6: I think.

3055
02:25:48,319 --> 02:25:51,920
Speaker 14: I think everyone engages in skepticism, does a skepticism and

3056
02:25:51,959 --> 02:25:55,440
every so often. But to declare yourself a skeptic is

3057
02:25:55,920 --> 02:25:59,360
to say this is my guiding principle, and I'm going

3058
02:25:59,440 --> 02:26:02,760
to put it of like intuition as much as I

3059
02:26:02,840 --> 02:26:05,280
can wherever I can. I think Marcus is basically saying

3060
02:26:05,719 --> 02:26:08,000
that he goes with feelings as often as he goes

3061
02:26:08,040 --> 02:26:09,319
with skepticism.

3062
02:26:08,799 --> 02:26:11,040
Speaker 2: And yeah, therefore agree with that. I agree with that

3063
02:26:11,159 --> 02:26:11,639
fair point.

3064
02:26:12,239 --> 02:26:14,079
Speaker 6: Being pignatic, But then again, you're a lawyer.

3065
02:26:14,239 --> 02:26:16,120
Speaker 1: That's kind of you know, it's very true. I think

3066
02:26:16,399 --> 02:26:19,559
me saying everybody's a skeptic is not true. It's in

3067
02:26:19,680 --> 02:26:21,600
one sense it is. I don't I don't know anybody

3068
02:26:21,639 --> 02:26:25,280
who's truly not skeptical about it's just the sufficiency of

3069
02:26:25,399 --> 02:26:29,159
evidence is what they and usually they'll they'll lower their

3070
02:26:29,239 --> 02:26:32,280
requirement of sufficiency for things that they emotionally like or

3071
02:26:32,360 --> 02:26:33,040
attached to.

3072
02:26:34,120 --> 02:26:36,639
Speaker 14: And thank you, Marcus, Thanks Marcus. And I would say

3073
02:26:36,680 --> 02:26:38,799
that that it should be that should be the inverse.

3074
02:26:38,840 --> 02:26:41,719
The more emotionally attached you are to something, the deeper

3075
02:26:41,799 --> 02:26:44,799
the scrutiny should apply to it, because holy crap, you

3076
02:26:44,879 --> 02:26:46,559
don't want to be wrong about stuff that's part of

3077
02:26:46,600 --> 02:26:51,079
your you're in a being that that's what that's that's

3078
02:26:51,440 --> 02:26:56,559
a paradigm shattering if if you believe something so so

3079
02:26:57,120 --> 02:26:59,840
much it becomes part of your sort of being in personality,

3080
02:27:00,159 --> 02:27:02,280
and that it's proven to be false.

3081
02:27:02,879 --> 02:27:03,840
Speaker 6: Oh the fuck.

3082
02:27:04,479 --> 02:27:07,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think. Yeah.

3083
02:27:07,200 --> 02:27:10,079
Speaker 1: If that's one message for everything I do online, it's that,

3084
02:27:10,479 --> 02:27:13,879
like you, we're seeing it play out. We've watched this

3085
02:27:14,319 --> 02:27:17,959
slow motion avalanche for the last twenty years, ever since the.

3086
02:27:18,079 --> 02:27:19,760
Speaker 2: Last time we were at war, and.

3087
02:27:22,399 --> 02:27:26,959
Speaker 1: Rumsfield was giving daily briefings to Bush the second, the Junior,

3088
02:27:27,600 --> 02:27:30,200
and on the binder of those briefings every day we're

3089
02:27:30,239 --> 02:27:32,959
biblical quotations. And this was the last time we were

3090
02:27:33,000 --> 02:27:35,799
in the Middle East with potentially now again boots on

3091
02:27:35,840 --> 02:27:38,680
the ground, and it was all this biblical view. We

3092
02:27:38,920 --> 02:27:43,399
keep going in there thinking, oh, there's an added bonus

3093
02:27:43,479 --> 02:27:44,200
to going in there.

3094
02:27:44,319 --> 02:27:47,319
Speaker 2: It's not just the oil, it's not just this other bit.

3095
02:27:47,799 --> 02:27:51,479
Speaker 1: But God wants us to because God wants there to

3096
02:27:51,520 --> 02:27:53,559
be a confident in the Middle East so we can

3097
02:27:53,600 --> 02:27:58,159
bring about armageddon. And we have hundreds and hundreds of

3098
02:27:58,280 --> 02:28:03,760
people on record to day complaining, active military personnel complaining

3099
02:28:03,840 --> 02:28:07,760
that their superiors are preaching this to them. And that

3100
02:28:08,000 --> 02:28:10,719
is one of the scariest moments of my life. I've

3101
02:28:10,760 --> 02:28:14,000
never heard of that actually happening. I was pissed off

3102
02:28:14,559 --> 02:28:19,920
during Bush two when they favored hiring Christian pastors to

3103
02:28:20,040 --> 02:28:23,440
be chaplains, right, they were favoring evangelicals.

3104
02:28:23,520 --> 02:28:27,319
Speaker 2: That was sort of it was a quaint day where mild.

3105
02:28:28,520 --> 02:28:30,760
Speaker 1: Scale tipping, putting their thumb on the scale in favor

3106
02:28:30,840 --> 02:28:34,799
of Christian chaplains in the service. Was really pissed me

3107
02:28:34,840 --> 02:28:37,159
off and scared me. And I can't imagine of being

3108
02:28:37,159 --> 02:28:39,280
able to go back to that quaint time these days.

3109
02:28:39,319 --> 02:28:41,079
I don't know what about you, Jamie.

3110
02:28:41,399 --> 02:28:46,120
Speaker 14: Yeah, I mean, I know it's fiction. But the scene

3111
02:28:46,159 --> 02:28:51,440
Informat or Jacket where Ali Marie's stomping down singing Happy

3112
02:28:51,520 --> 02:28:55,719
Birthday Jesus to the troops, and I'm like, there's a

3113
02:28:55,879 --> 02:28:59,479
very similitude in this scene. I wouldn't be surprised if

3114
02:28:59,559 --> 02:29:01,920
that happened. And in the in the Vietnam War and

3115
02:29:02,040 --> 02:29:07,280
the like and yeah, and in the same breath, these

3116
02:29:07,360 --> 02:29:09,799
people will say, oh, yeah, but the Crusades were bad

3117
02:29:09,879 --> 02:29:13,360
because that was obviously perversion of Christianity. Great for personal

3118
02:29:13,479 --> 02:29:17,879
gain and to pull the pull the Byzantine empires, faltering

3119
02:29:18,000 --> 02:29:19,719
irons out of the fire and whatever.

3120
02:29:19,760 --> 02:29:23,239
Speaker 6: It's like, it's it's the same doing it again.

3121
02:29:25,399 --> 02:29:28,520
Speaker 1: And even as gritty as the masterpiece of Full Metal

3122
02:29:28,600 --> 02:29:31,920
Jacket was, in that scene, you've had something propping that

3123
02:29:32,079 --> 02:29:35,920
probably wouldn't happen today. When Joker says, no, I don't

3124
02:29:35,959 --> 02:29:38,200
believe in the god you're professing. I don't believe in

3125
02:29:38,239 --> 02:29:40,920
the Virgin Mary, he gets hell from the sergeant, but

3126
02:29:41,000 --> 02:29:43,719
then the sergeant rewards him for that attitude, for sticking

3127
02:29:43,799 --> 02:29:46,920
up for his beliefs, that fucking doesn't happen. Now you

3128
02:29:47,079 --> 02:29:51,639
disagree with the command, and you're you're out. You're relegated

3129
02:29:51,680 --> 02:29:53,360
to be the shields of Americas.

3130
02:29:53,399 --> 02:29:55,600
Speaker 14: I would, I would, I would refer to the stories

3131
02:29:55,639 --> 02:29:57,879
of actual veterans on that we know if you and

3132
02:29:58,360 --> 02:30:02,079
and and we and some of the higher ups in

3133
02:30:02,639 --> 02:30:05,399
in the a C are have served, and they have

3134
02:30:05,559 --> 02:30:10,040
had they have told stories about about how religion and

3135
02:30:10,680 --> 02:30:13,559
military come together in not the best ways.

3136
02:30:14,200 --> 02:30:18,319
Speaker 6: So yeah, but yes, thanks for thanks for having me up.

3137
02:30:18,520 --> 02:30:20,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely, thank you so much.

3138
02:30:20,239 --> 02:30:23,040
Speaker 1: Do you have any observations about the prior callers before

3139
02:30:23,159 --> 02:30:24,079
real quick, before.

3140
02:30:23,879 --> 02:30:30,799
Speaker 14: We go the first the first call regarding oh I'm blanking,

3141
02:30:30,959 --> 02:30:36,799
oh yeah, with veganism, Yeah, yes, moral superiority. It can

3142
02:30:36,920 --> 02:30:41,280
seem like hypocrisy that I'm so vehement against the denigration

3143
02:30:41,399 --> 02:30:43,799
of humans in a religious context. And I will then

3144
02:30:43,879 --> 02:30:46,639
go and go to the pe terries around the corner

3145
02:30:46,719 --> 02:30:50,760
from from from the freethought that I pick up a

3146
02:30:50,799 --> 02:30:51,719
double double.

3147
02:30:53,680 --> 02:30:55,159
Speaker 6: And so there's that.

3148
02:30:55,840 --> 02:30:59,319
Speaker 14: But on the on the same thing, saying oh, you know, slaver,

3149
02:30:59,639 --> 02:31:02,680
when will say, well, slavery is analogous to eating meat.

3150
02:31:02,719 --> 02:31:06,760
I'm like, yeah, I have canine teeth, like I have

3151
02:31:07,079 --> 02:31:12,239
physical evidence that I was evolutionarily developing to be omnivorous,

3152
02:31:12,520 --> 02:31:17,000
like I am designed to well designed designed, I'm not designed,

3153
02:31:17,079 --> 02:31:20,559
but I evolved to eat a variety of foods, including meat.

3154
02:31:21,639 --> 02:31:24,799
And yes, fighting our natural imperatives is often the way

3155
02:31:24,879 --> 02:31:30,840
to morally superior standpoint. But I don't think I would

3156
02:31:30,920 --> 02:31:33,399
counter that. I would, and I'd ask, you know, we

3157
02:31:33,520 --> 02:31:34,280
know biologists.

3158
02:31:34,319 --> 02:31:34,520
Speaker 4: I might.

3159
02:31:34,639 --> 02:31:37,440
Speaker 14: I might ask friend of the show Forest Valka next

3160
02:31:37,479 --> 02:31:39,079
time I gets talk to him, Hey, is there any

3161
02:31:39,120 --> 02:31:43,639
evolutionary emphasis to owning people as farm equipment?

3162
02:31:45,000 --> 02:31:47,479
Speaker 1: And then with the well, the South thought of war

3163
02:31:47,559 --> 02:31:49,639
over and over here, they thought it was pretty important

3164
02:31:49,760 --> 02:31:50,639
to their survival.

3165
02:31:51,000 --> 02:31:51,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3166
02:31:51,239 --> 02:31:55,120
Speaker 14: And then there was the second call about about talking

3167
02:31:55,280 --> 02:32:01,360
about the proselytizing I am. I mean again, some people

3168
02:32:01,440 --> 02:32:03,639
might call the hypocrites because we're up here talking and

3169
02:32:03,680 --> 02:32:05,239
and inviting people to talk to us about.

3170
02:32:05,639 --> 02:32:06,319
Speaker 2: This is a call in.

3171
02:32:06,559 --> 02:32:10,360
Speaker 14: Yeah, the equivalents, We don't. We're not going door to

3172
02:32:10,440 --> 02:32:12,120
door saying have you have you thought about how she

3173
02:32:12,360 --> 02:32:15,319
this is a load of crap. But yes, I do

3174
02:32:15,440 --> 02:32:19,040
actually enjoy engaging with people who try and puselotize with me.

3175
02:32:19,120 --> 02:32:21,600
But then again, I'm a freak who enjoys that kind

3176
02:32:21,639 --> 02:32:24,239
of thing, and I like, I understand where a lot

3177
02:32:24,280 --> 02:32:26,440
of people just don't want it shoved in their faces.

3178
02:32:28,239 --> 02:32:32,000
And unfortunately, because I'm slightly vindictive when there are street

3179
02:32:32,040 --> 02:32:35,879
preachers on the corners. And I've told the story about

3180
02:32:35,920 --> 02:32:38,159
when I when I went over to England and met

3181
02:32:38,239 --> 02:32:42,360
up with again excellent show hoster Richard Gilliver and we

3182
02:32:42,719 --> 02:32:45,600
kind of sort of slightly may have bulleted some jos.

3183
02:32:45,799 --> 02:32:48,520
This is a little bit with with like it was

3184
02:32:48,600 --> 02:32:53,040
blood in the water because two well versed anti apologists

3185
02:32:53,079 --> 02:32:53,760
are going up to.

3186
02:32:53,799 --> 02:32:56,600
Speaker 6: These just nice people who talk about.

3187
02:32:56,680 --> 02:32:59,559
Speaker 1: They were giving the mildest of armament before being shoved

3188
02:32:59,639 --> 02:33:02,040
under the Yeah, so.

3189
02:33:02,200 --> 02:33:04,639
Speaker 14: You know, I have I feel that's a guilty pleasure.

3190
02:33:04,959 --> 02:33:08,200
And then the last few calls, yep, just evidence, woo

3191
02:33:08,200 --> 02:33:12,479
woo woo. Evidence please and please don't believe things without evidence,

3192
02:33:12,520 --> 02:33:14,159
because that is a dark, dark path.

3193
02:33:14,719 --> 02:33:16,120
Speaker 6: You're great, that can kill people.

3194
02:33:17,040 --> 02:33:21,000
Speaker 1: I agree, kill people. You know, there's a measles outbreak

3195
02:33:21,040 --> 02:33:25,200
in the United States. Let's move that way. So so,

3196
02:33:26,399 --> 02:33:28,959
yet another show in the history of the atheist experience.

3197
02:33:29,000 --> 02:33:32,079
Where we haven't become convinced, but I am still optimistic

3198
02:33:32,159 --> 02:33:33,760
that sooner or later somebody will come up with at

3199
02:33:33,799 --> 02:33:35,799
least an argument that makes us really think about it.

3200
02:33:35,920 --> 02:33:38,040
So please, next time we're on, give us a call.

3201
02:33:38,120 --> 02:33:41,879
We're here every Sunday at four thirty pm Central Time,

3202
02:33:42,200 --> 02:33:44,920
once again, thanks to the crew, Thanks to j Mike,

3203
02:33:44,959 --> 02:33:46,520
the host who had to leave early. I'm sorry to

3204
02:33:46,600 --> 02:33:49,040
hear that, and a special thanks here to Jamie for

3205
02:33:49,159 --> 02:33:51,280
being our backup and filling in when we had an

3206
02:33:51,360 --> 02:33:52,799
emergency host need.

3207
02:33:52,920 --> 02:33:54,319
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It was great to be on

3208
02:33:54,440 --> 02:33:55,520
the show again with you.

3209
02:33:55,760 --> 02:33:57,840
Speaker 6: Always a pleasure, Dave always all right.

3210
02:33:58,719 --> 02:34:01,559
Speaker 2: Have a great time, everybody, See you again next time.

3211
02:34:01,639 --> 02:34:08,120
Bye bye, say dot albody, y.

3212
02:34:09,719 --> 02:34:15,239
Speaker 12: Stot questen the bull shit everyone around you, your buys

3213
02:34:15,879 --> 02:34:22,479
the shit, say y'all walk, it's fast, all.

3214
02:34:24,120 --> 02:34:27,639
Speaker 7: Under m David of y'all.

3215
02:34:46,840 --> 02:34:50,120
Speaker 2: Watch Talking Than Live Sundays at one pm Central. Visit

3216
02:34:50,200 --> 02:34:53,079
tiny dot c c slash y t t H and

3217
02:34:53,239 --> 02:34:55,639
call into the show at five one two nine nine

3218
02:34:55,760 --> 02:34:58,680
one two four two, or connect to the show online

3219
02:34:58,719 --> 02:35:01,479
at tiny dot cc D slash called t H