WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:04.839 You see, something's going to happen. 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:10.599 What's going to happen? 3 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:18.399 What I do. 4 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:29.559 Help welcome back to the occult rejects. Today is going 5 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:32.079 to be a special one. We're stepping into one of 6 00:00:32.119 --> 00:00:35.920 the deepest wells in Western thought, the world of Plato. 7 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:39.280 And I don't mean the silly putty, and not just 8 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:42.960 Plato the philosopher. You hear about it in school, but 9 00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:47.200 we hear about Plato the myth maker, the architect of metaphysics, 10 00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:51.960 the man who's writing shape everything from Christianity to mysticism, 11 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:56.600 esoteric philosophy, and the occult tradition that came much much later. 12 00:00:57.159 --> 00:00:59.479 To help them, help us unpack a little bit here. 13 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:06.000 We've got two great, amazing and brilliant guests with us today, P. D. 14 00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:10.280 Newman and the Ike Baker. And this time it's going 15 00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:13.920 to be heavy. We're talking about Plato's writings, the hidden 16 00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:16.879 layers inside of them, the big ideas like the forms 17 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:19.519 the soul of the nature of reality, and why texts 18 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:23.159 like The Republic and the Tamaea still matter today as 19 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:26.879 we're trying to understand the spiritual and the symbolic foundations 20 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:30.439 of Western world as we know it. Plato isn't just 21 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:33.920 ancient history. He's still in the room with us today. 22 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:39.519 His fingerprints are all over everything religion, philosophy, initiation systems, 23 00:01:39.560 --> 00:01:42.959 and the way people think about truth itself. So today 24 00:01:43.239 --> 00:01:46.760 we're going back into the cave and hopefully coming back 25 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:50.680 out with a little more light. Pd Ike, welcome back 26 00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:53.840 to the old cult rejects, and I myself do not 27 00:01:54.040 --> 00:01:58.640 forget am Brandon Lee of Megas in the media. After this, 28 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:02.280 head over sbscribe like and share the same thing you 29 00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:05.480 do with everybody else on this panel. We're going deep 30 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:08.800 and I'm sending it over to the head cardinal himself, 31 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:13.599 the nick the occult reject himself. Head it over. 32 00:02:13.879 --> 00:02:19.719 What is funny? I love it? 33 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:23.039 Thanks Jules, Yo, that was a bang banger of an intro. 34 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:25.840 Thank you so much Brad that I really appreciate it. 35 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:28.319 I appreciate I coming here. I appreciate p D. Newman 36 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:30.800 coming on. Ike, I really appreciate you even setting this up. 37 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:32.680 I mean, this is amazing for me, So. 38 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:33.800 Thank you all. 39 00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:35.919 Yeah, you can check out the Ocult Rejects Bitch You 40 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:40.199 Rumble YouTube, all major podcasts if you feel inclined to 41 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:42.439 send money. We do sell t shirts too for twenty 42 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:44.680 five dollars a piece. You will get it delivered to 43 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:46.599 your house. So if you're interested, hit me up on 44 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:48.800 social media and yeah. 45 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:52.240 That is all. Uh, let me introduce Judith. What is 46 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:54.560 going on? How are you hi? 47 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:56.039 This is the Loon. 48 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:59.400 You can catch me on YouTube on as the Loon 49 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:02.680 and on and I just do some self care and 50 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:05.599 some internal discussions. 51 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:07.879 Thank you for having me, no. 52 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:10.479 Of course, thank you for joining always appreciate it. And 53 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:12.680 my man Jewels just saw you a few hours ago. 54 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:14.639 What is going on? Brother? Thank you for joining us again? 55 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:16.280 What's up? Man? 56 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:18.479 Thank you for having me, guys Jewels, host of the 57 00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:21.800 Great Pill Podcast, Handsome Higher Front Mississippi Mystic. 58 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:24.439 Uh yeah, glad to be here. 59 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:26.199 It's been a while since I've been on in a 60 00:03:26.240 --> 00:03:29.479 Cult Rejects episode, so I'll probably keep my mouth shut 61 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:32.960 for most of this one. I don't know much about Plato, 62 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:37.120 but I am willing to learn, so Ike and PD, 63 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:39.400 it's it's good to meet you, guys. 64 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:39.719 PD. 65 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:42.280 I heard me and you have something common, you know, 66 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:46.080 being from the same area. Maybe, so that's pretty cool, 67 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:46.719 I think. 68 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:47.879 Yeah. 69 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:52.240 Mississippi, yeah man, yeah, yeah, yeah, Mississippi Mystic. You know 70 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:55.280 it's a web parton that I've coined. But yeah, up 71 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:59.719 in North Mississippi, well central to north little north of Jackson, 72 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:04.039 So okay, yeah man, but yeah no, Nick, thanks for 73 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:06.960 having me and uh, yeah, guys follow me on x 74 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:10.199 at grypul pod and go over to Patreon check us 75 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:11.840 out over there. We do Gods of the Morning. Would 76 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:14.759 every Saturday morning, Nick and Headless usually join us, and uh, 77 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:22.720 this morning we covered the Naghamadi text. We covered, uh, the. 78 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:25.879 The sanctum I really want to say sanctum rectum of 79 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:31.680 the terror, but uh, sanctum sanctum something I don't know, 80 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:34.560 and then uh, the Delphic maxims. 81 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:36.839 It was a banger and it will be going private 82 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:38.680 in a few hours, so go check it out after this. 83 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:42.120 Thank you very much, Jules, I appreciate you. 84 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.199 You could be here to see all my fellow rejects. 85 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:46.199 Hell yeah, brother, it's good to have you on. And 86 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:48.959 mister Robbie Marks the storyteller himself, what is going on. 87 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:52.399 Sir, Yeah, thanks for having me on. This is gonna 88 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:56.160 be a fun one. I am our Marx artist illustrator 89 00:04:56.439 --> 00:05:00.839 and do a variety of research in the various subject matters. 90 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:04.959 I have the metamind Cast, which is my podcast various 91 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:08.519 interviews like this and stuff that I esoteric subjects that 92 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:10.680 I cover. But if you want to check out all 93 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:13.240 my Miss laney SLINKs, you can go to my link 94 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:16.240 tree which is link tree r M A r X. 95 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:20.120 And I will say that over the last couple of years, 96 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:24.639 I've pretty extensively been really digging into play though, and 97 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:30.839 I'm just completing laws right now, and so it's, uh, 98 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:34.519 it's been quite the journey going through all this information 99 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:37.839 and I'm really interested to see kind of you know, 100 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:44.439 where this whole conversation goes on, just platonic, you know, philosophy, 101 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:50.639 the governmental processes, the various gods and goddesses and temples 102 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:55.120 and it's just uh yeah, some really uh stuff that 103 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:58.040 I really enjoy and I appreciate you having me on. 104 00:05:58.120 --> 00:05:58.319 Nick. 105 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:00.680 Of course, Robbie was a pleasure I have on the show, 106 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:02.920 and we got Arrows and what is up? 107 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:03.319 Arrows. 108 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:07.959 Good to have you back, Yeah, thank you, and thanks 109 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:11.399 for having me on. I'm so excited for this one today. 110 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.480 You know, Plato was the first to create this unified 111 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:21.439 ethical cosmology, and he coined the term demn urge and 112 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:25.600 the ideal forms and was the first to talk about Atlantis. 113 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:28.399 There's just so much that could be said about Plato. 114 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:31.519 It's like, how we're not going to be able to 115 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:37.360 cover much. I'm sure, but yeah, very excited. You can 116 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:41.079 find me on x at Arrows to Ethos and you 117 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:43.959 can find me on YouTube at Arrows Up. 118 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:48.279 Thank you very much for coming on Arrows and Ethan Indigo, 119 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:50.920 what is going on through well? 120 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:54.040 Thank you so much everyone for being aeric Brandon Dope 121 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:59.800 introduction pd Ike. I'm really excited to speak with you guys. 122 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:02.519 And like many of the things that I look into, 123 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:07.000 Plato makes me feel more ignorant the more I study 124 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:09.959 and learn of him. Right, it's just so such a 125 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:15.600 deep stream of information. So Ethan Indigo Smith, I'm easy 126 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:18.240 to find on all the social media and I always 127 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:23.600 appreciate people reaching out and communicating and once you're writing 128 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:27.319 out there and articles and books and again, appreciate. 129 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:29.279 Everybody, appreciate you making it, Ethan. 130 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:33.800 And finally to the guests, Ike, please, sir, people don't 131 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:36.120 know who you are already, Let's remind them where can 132 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:37.319 they find all your amazing work. 133 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:42.240 I will be moonlighting at Chuck e Cheese for the 134 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:45.040 next month and a half. If you guys want to 135 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:50.079 come down, it's over here, just outside of Charlotte. They're 136 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:51.759 gonna get They told me that I can't bring a 137 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:55.360 full sized guitar. I have to bring a ukulele. So 138 00:07:56.800 --> 00:07:59.720 my name's like Baker. I it's a pleasure to be 139 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:05.680 here amongst such excellent company. I host the Arcane podcast 140 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:11.160 and YouTube channel ar C A n VM, and I 141 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:14.800 wrote a bunch of books and I primarily I guess 142 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:20.399 most people will know me as Golden Down magician. That's 143 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:21.160 kind of my background. 144 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:21.360 You know. 145 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:25.120 I was on this channel with Fredi RC just a 146 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:27.120 little while ago talking about the Golden Down. It was 147 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:31.800 a great conversation. But Platonism is something that's very, very 148 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:36.879 near and dear to me. I got my first four 149 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:41.039 Platonic dialogues. My dad bought it for me and he 150 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:43.360 gifted it to me when I was about eleven years old, 151 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:50.639 and it was it's called four Great Dialogues. I think 152 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:55.519 it was the Feto, the Apology, the Creto, and I'm 153 00:08:55.559 --> 00:08:58.840 forgetting the fourth one. But so it started really early 154 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:02.279 for me, and I didn't have any kind of academic 155 00:09:02.360 --> 00:09:06.720 filter that was that was trying to you know, fit 156 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:11.480 me into this little nice, uh you know, rationally square 157 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:15.960 box that uh that academia was trying to filter our 158 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.559 perception of of the Platonic dialogues through for a really 159 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:23.600 long time. So these always came across as mystical texts 160 00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:27.399 to me and I actually bonded for the first time. 161 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:30.000 I had PD on my podcast to cut a number 162 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:35.159 of years ago, and just and I think we might 163 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:37.879 have used exactly these words in the podcast. What he 164 00:09:38.039 --> 00:09:43.799 was putting down I was picking up because this, immediately 165 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:47.240 to me was a kindred spirit. PD is one of 166 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:50.840 the finest, finest Platonists I've ever met my entire life. 167 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:55.879 And uh, he's an incredible author and his book Theogy 168 00:09:55.919 --> 00:09:59.000 Theory in practice, it just blew the doors off. And 169 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:01.879 you know what it's saying something when you get an 170 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:05.720 author who writes relatively short treatise, if you've seen literature 171 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:09.159 on Platonism and theory, she's like, you know, and but 172 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:12.879 more information, more valuable information, and more heart in that 173 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:17.600 in that thin volume than than arguably probably the last 174 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:20.759 forty books I read on Platonism. So of course I 175 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:23.720 jumped at the opportunity to uh to bring them on 176 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:26.440 this show today, and so thanks for being here man. 177 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:33.440 And thank you, and you are far too generous. But 178 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:36.200 that book, that that book came about in a very 179 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:39.000 very strange way. I told you a little bit about it, 180 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:43.159 you know, for those of you who aren't familiar with 181 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:48.759 my research and how it started. I mainly focus on 182 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:56.200 psychedelics and the use of psychedelics within ritual contexts, indigenous settings, 183 00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:04.600 and especially religious youth is in ancient religions. But in 184 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:10.000 my teens I got really involved in ceremonial magic, and 185 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:15.000 just like I, you know, the first kind of the 186 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:19.639 most visible system was the golden dullstem. I spent a 187 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:23.440 lot of time in the Golden Dull system, got into 188 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:28.840 too Crowley for a little while, especially because of his 189 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:34.279 validation of the use of enthegens within a magical context, 190 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:38.559 which was the first validation I had seen of what 191 00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:44.799 I was experiencing in my own path. But what got 192 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:48.039 me into Platonism and what led to the writing of theogy, 193 00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:53.840 Believe it or not, I read this book by Augus 194 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:59.799 uzda Venis. He passed away in twenty ten, probably probably 195 00:11:59.879 --> 00:12:04.399 the most brilliant author I've ever read, next to somebody 196 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:09.840 like Peter Kingsley, and that book absolutely set me on fire. 197 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:12.960 And I didn't know that Algus had passed away. I 198 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:17.519 didn't know who this man was, and and I had 199 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:24.679 no intentions of writing a book on theorgy. But one 200 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:31.840 night I'm dead asleep, and I have an encounter with 201 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:36.600 what I can only call Ustavinni's ghost comes to me 202 00:12:36.679 --> 00:12:42.440 in my sleep and gives me this book fully formed, uh, 203 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:47.360 the entire organization of it, the the structure of it, 204 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:52.120 each chapter, the themes. And I woke up two three 205 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:54.759 in the morning with this fully formed book in my head, 206 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:58.519 and and I thought, how the fuck does that happen? 207 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:01.440 Where does you know? Where did that come from? But 208 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:07.200 I didn't do anything about it. And successively, for roughly 209 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:13.080 ninety days, he would startle me awake about the same time, 210 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:15.440 two or three in the morning and make me write. 211 00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:21.879 And every book I wrote before that book, you know, 212 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:25.720 you can probably confirm this. It takes about a year, 213 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:30.720 you know, to research and write a book. This book 214 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:34.360 happened in ninety days. I wrote it in an absolute 215 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:38.360 fever and a half trance state in the middle of 216 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:45.240 the night, being prodded by this ornery Lithuanian fucking ghost. 217 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:49.799 So I say that because I don't take full credit 218 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:51.559 for that book. I also, I am not trying to 219 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:54.639 say it's a channeled work, but it came about in 220 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:59.679 a very strange way and was by far the oddest 221 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:02.799 night the days of my entire career as a writer. 222 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:07.440 So strange stuff the muse. 223 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:12.320 Yeah, oh, and just so selfless plug and people want 224 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:14.320 to hear more about his book on Theorgy and Ike 225 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:17.240 Baker's Etheric Magic, and can go check out the Occult Rejects. 226 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:24.679 We have episodes. Yes, So I don't know. Uh, I 227 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:26.679 don't know who wants to start it off first with Plato? 228 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:27.279 I mean, I don't know. 229 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:30.200 I was thinking about asking people if you if you 230 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:36.519 if you don't mind, I guess like where, I don't 231 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:41.039 even know what ite Uh, I guess when it comes 232 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.679 to Plato in in In. 233 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:49.480 I guess a cult or esoteric system. Where do you see? 234 00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:53.679 I guess like the most blatant. I guess, uh, you know, 235 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:55.679 borrowing from his ideas, his influence. 236 00:14:58.399 --> 00:14:59.080 Who we asking? 237 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:02.039 I guess really, I'll ask you first if you don't mind. 238 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:12.200 Okay, everywhere, if it's a Western system of attainment, Plato 239 00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:15.360 is in the background somewhere, even if the author of 240 00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:19.840 that system isn't aware of the fact. So many tropes 241 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:24.919 that we take for granted in Western mystery traditions western 242 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:30.759 mysticism have their origin in either Plato or in what 243 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:38.080 Plato was reading. And that's especially true if someone like Parmenides, Pythagoras, 244 00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:42.600 and Pedocles, Heraclitis, you know, all of these early pre 245 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:49.879 Socratic voices, he addresses them and their ideas, even if 246 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.399 he's not clear about it, even if he's not saying, 247 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:56.039 you know, we're commenting on or building on what came 248 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:00.679 in the past. In a big way, he gives his 249 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:03.360 reader the benefit of the doubt that they already know 250 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:06.399 this stuff. And at the time they probably did, you know, 251 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:10.000 within the academy, they certainly would have been familiar with 252 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:14.559 those those texts. But yeah, everything and and it's especially 253 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:19.799 true of early Christianity, of Orthodox Christianity, and it's true 254 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:23.879 of heterodox Christianity a gnosticism. But when you see the 255 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:31.200 emergence of Christianity proper in the Orthodox Church and figures 256 00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:37.120 like Saint Dionysius, the Areopagite Gregory of Nissa, Saint Anthonasius. 257 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:47.039 It's a Maximus the Confessor. Especially, it's impossible two make 258 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:51.120 sense of what they're saying without recourse to Plato. Like 259 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:53.759 IX said, without that, without a filter in there that 260 00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:56.960 you're you can say, oh, you know this, this is 261 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:04.119 Plato just recast for for a different type of audience. 262 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:09.519 And what's really different about that audience and Platonism the 263 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:13.640 one the monad is transcendent a lot like the Father 264 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:17.880 in Christianity right, and in Judaism, the fathers is separate 265 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:24.839 from his creation. Christianity drawing from not necessarily Plato, but 266 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:30.920 certainly the Neoplatonists realized the gap that creates because there 267 00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:37.240 is a philosophical need to maintain God's eminence within the creation. 268 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:42.720 And the Neoplatonists solve this problem by what they call suntha, Mata, 269 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:48.200 and sumbola, which are tokens and symbols, but tokens are 270 00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:53.279 so you can think about them similar to how the 271 00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:56.599 Golden Dawn has correspondences. When you look at the Tree 272 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:00.640 of life, each sephera, each netteva, they each have a 273 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:07.880 string of correspondences, but and a lot of approaches to that. 274 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:14.000 It becomes a psychological mnemonic where you'll see practitioners saying 275 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.880 things like, well, if I surround myself with things that 276 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:21.640 are red, you know, and increments of five and iron, 277 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:25.720 that I'm propelling my consciousness into Gibera, because all of 278 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:30.680 these are psychological mnemonics that entrance me to think about Mars, 279 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:34.359 to think about Gibura. But what's different about the way 280 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:38.480 the Neoplatonists think about these tokens are that they don't 281 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:45.599 represent the gods. They are the gods and fractal microcosmic form. 282 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:50.920 So when you interact with with iron, you are interacting 283 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:57.480 with Mars only simply the way Mars manifests on this plane. 284 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:03.720 So Christianity takes this and transfers all of that into 285 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.440 the figure of Christ. Christ becomes the imminence of God 286 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.880 within this creation. But that couldn't have happened without Plato. 287 00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:15.920 I like to say that Christ was born and crucified 288 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:24.599 in a Platonic cosmos, in particularly a Hellenistic cosmos. Then 289 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:27.799 the best example of that is in the Creed, where 290 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:32.599 it says that Christ descends to Hades right to release 291 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:38.319 the saints. Well, that means he descended to a Greek 292 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:45.240 underworld right. So in the same motion, it confirms the 293 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:49.440 Greek cosmo conception, but it also overturns it in that 294 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:52.359 for the first time people can get out of Hades 295 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:57.279 and into Heaven, which for them would have been Mount Olympus, 296 00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:00.599 where men don't go men are allowed there. But Christ 297 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:06.519 confirms it and overturns it. So no Plato, no. 298 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:12.720 Christ, You're here. Yeah, absolutely, you know, like people will, 299 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:14.720 people will get confused when I tell them that I'm 300 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:16.759 a Christian. I was like, wait, hold on, you're a 301 00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:19.079 magician too, you claim to do the Golden dawns. Like, 302 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:23.759 first of all, you know, there's definitely some sort of 303 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:29.559 it's not necessarily the person's fault per se, but you know, 304 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:34.000 exoteric discussions about religion always devolve upon the same issues, 305 00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:37.319 which is a definition of terms. People will use terms 306 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:40.799 generically according to their own sort of you know, referencing 307 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:43.160 themselves and what they know. That's kind of like if 308 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:44.799 you say, hey, can you get me a band aid 309 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:48.359 out of the cabinet. What you're talking about is a bandage. 310 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:51.559 Band aid is a brand, but you're using that term 311 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:54.440 generically without even thinking about it, And people do that 312 00:20:54.519 --> 00:20:59.559 with Christianity. I am in terms of my faith, my 313 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:02.519 outlook on the world. I would say that I'm someone 314 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:07.880 a little bit more pre Nicene, uh contemplative Christian. Also, 315 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:11.119 you know, I practice the and and administer the seven Sacraments. 316 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:15.920 I'm even though I'm not Orthodox, technically, I'm Orthoprats. So 317 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:18.720 I'll practice those rituals according to the Roman writer the 318 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:21.400 Coptic right. And then I'll say, look, but my my 319 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:25.759 metaphysic hell, even my theology is Platonic. You know, the 320 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:28.480 early Church. I mean you look a look at the reading, 321 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:32.200 any reading. Augustine's the obvious one. But if you look 322 00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:36.200 at even like the Desert Fathers, they're using and it's 323 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:39.160 this is true of the Hermetica as well. We like 324 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.400 to for for what I believe is like reasons of 325 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:45.599 political correctness in the modern day. We like to attribute 326 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:50.200 the Hermetic texts specifically to the Egyptians. But in reality, 327 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:53.519 there's there's no Hermetic text that predates the Platonic Dialogues. 328 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:56.799 And not only it's written in Greek and Coptic. Coptic 329 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.440 is mostly Greek in terms of the alphabet, and they're 330 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:09.759 using discrete Platonic terms in context, words like c he right, soul, nous, higher, 331 00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:15.079 consciousness logos, these kinds of thing using those those platonic 332 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:20.119 terms in us in that specific platonic context. It's the 333 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:22.839 same thing in the writings of the Desert Fathers when 334 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:26.240 they talk about I mean Evagius of Pontus, who is 335 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:30.160 the great you know, taxonomist of of of of early 336 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:35.400 Christian demonology. He talks about the soul having three parts. Okay, 337 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:38.359 that comes we first see that in the Fato. The 338 00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:41.599 platonic dialog is the tripartite nature of the soul, and 339 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:43.279 he's talking about how he came out here in the 340 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:47.240 desert so he could he could raise his consciousness up 341 00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:49.640 out of the appetitive, which is the lowest part, and 342 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:52.160 into the rational, the logisticon. 343 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:52.839 You know. 344 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:57.039 So there, as as PD rightly points out, I mean, 345 00:22:57.079 --> 00:23:03.359 it is so diffuse. We're on like truly the modern commentators, 346 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:10.000 specifically through esotericism and what I would say adjacent to academia. 347 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:12.680 This is the first time I'm seeing in a very 348 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:15.720 long time commentators that are looking at this stuff and 349 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:20.640 realizing just how significant it is. And we're beginning to 350 00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:23.400 ice ICEE a movement now in the modern day of 351 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:29.279 people starting to interpret this stuff not in this very sterile. 352 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:31.920 You know, let's put this thing in a glass case 353 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.000 and put a little light on it, like but but 354 00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:38.759 interpreting it from almost almost from a position within the tradition, 355 00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:41.960 you know. So so so it's almost like we have 356 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:46.119 a new Neoplatonism here. That's that's working, and that's what 357 00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:49.839 the old commentators were doing, you know. And and somebody 358 00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:52.799 mentioned that they felt ignorant by reading Plato, and I 359 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.440 mean even the early neoplatonists talk about that, you know, 360 00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:00.079 they you know, so it's it's it's quite interesting. But 361 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:09.680 I would say that, uh to to sort of piggyback 362 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:15.279 on what PD said about Parmenides and Heraclitis. There was 363 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:20.279 so so pre Socratic philosophy in the main, in the main, right, 364 00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:23.799 I'm gonna break with with this generalization to show you 365 00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:27.319 the exceptions, but in the main was not really that 366 00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:33.480 interested in uh A sophisticated theology. They were very very 367 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:37.079 they were they were they were early early sort of protophysicists, 368 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:40.119 natural philosophers, and that would have been what was going 369 00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:43.640 on in the Egyptian temple complexes, right, because the gods 370 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:47.839 were forces of nature, and each particularly particular you know, 371 00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:52.519 hieratic station or cultists, was dedicated not only to working 372 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:56.799 with the God but understanding its functions in nature. Okay, 373 00:24:56.880 --> 00:24:59.079 so then this this stuff gets taught to the Greeks. 374 00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:00.480 We know that we don't have to go over that 375 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:03.559 is well established that they went there to learn this shit, 376 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:09.119 and they came back wizards. But a lot of guys 377 00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:12.960 were more interested in ethics, more interested in you know, 378 00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:16.279 are things relative and the heraclitis and things like this. 379 00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:23.160 Not parmenit. He's protagorists, things like that, and Plato addresses 380 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:26.440 these in turn. Throughout his dialogues. He's constantly trying to 381 00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:30.599 or what I think, he's orienting those old, those pre 382 00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:34.480 Socratic philosophies in the light of the Socratic movement, which 383 00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:38.519 is but he's to PD's point, he's not being so 384 00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:40.519 heavy handed about it, right, because at the end of 385 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:44.839 most of the Platonic dialogues, we're like, okay, we just 386 00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:46.720 spent forty five pages, and we're really we don't know 387 00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:49.680 where we are anymore, you know's there's not like they don't. 388 00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:52.599 He never wraps a bow on it. He's the eternal cliffhanger. 389 00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:57.359 But there is an exception. There's an exception, and those 390 00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:00.160 exceptions that the way that I see them through my 391 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:05.720 research is Pherisides, the ancient orphic mythographer who was, according 392 00:26:05.720 --> 00:26:09.759 to Diogenes Laertius, was the teacher of Pythagoras, we all know, 393 00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:15.240 the great metaphysician and number mystic, and then Parmenides. And 394 00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:18.200 Parmenides I believe it is said that at one point 395 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:23.119 he was a Pythagorean, and he left that cult specifically 396 00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:25.759 for a new teacher who taught him the art of 397 00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:30.680 silence and and uh and PD talks some about that 398 00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:33.799 in his in his book. So what you get in 399 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:38.920 Plato really is a focus on metaphysic uh, an ethical 400 00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:46.559 imperative two to using the mind to reach metaphysical heights uh, 401 00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:51.640