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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 7: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 7: infamous killers in true crime history, True Murder with your
Speaker 7: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 8: Good evening From the cornfields of Nebraska to the top rung.
Speaker 8: As a rising star of the adult film industry, Timothy
Speaker 8: John Boham had everything a young man could ask for,
Speaker 8: including a beautiful young daughter. The fall from the top
Speaker 8: of the ladder to the depths of prison was short
Speaker 8: and steep, as in one rash moment, with one wrong decision,
Speaker 8: Boham lost it all season. True crime writer Donna Thomas
Speaker 8: spent countless hours with the subject Timothy John Boham. Thomas
Speaker 8: also worked for a period of time for the deceased
Speaker 8: victim John Paul Kelso. As only a gifted author such
Speaker 8: as Thomas ken, she takes the readers on this sometimes
Speaker 8: very perilous, but fascinating and entertaining journey of adult film
Speaker 8: star Timothy J. Boham aka Marcus Allen, as his thirst
Speaker 8: and hunger for fame and adulation explodes into chaos, love, loss,
Speaker 8: and murder. The book that we're featuring this evening is
Speaker 8: intended for mature audiences. The Rise and deadly spiral of
Speaker 8: adult star Timothy J. Bohim was my special guest journalist
Speaker 8: and author Donna tom Thus, welcome to the program, and
Speaker 8: thank you for agreeing to this interview. Donna Thomas, thank
Speaker 8: you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it.
Speaker 8: Dan, thank you very much. Finally, we have you on
Speaker 8: with this wild wild tale. Now you spent considerable time
Speaker 8: with the former Marcus Allen or the aka Marcus Allen
Speaker 8: Timothy J. Bulham. But let's take the audience back to
Speaker 8: where he grew up in this little town in Nebraska.
Speaker 8: Tell us about his parents, his family life so we
Speaker 8: can see how what his early life was and what
Speaker 8: really shaped this man that became Marcus Allen. So tell
Speaker 8: us a little bit about sure Timothy J. Buhem's life.
Speaker 1: He grew up in Stuart, Nebraska, which is on the
Speaker 1: northern slope of Nebraska. It's about three thousand people. Even
Speaker 1: today there's only four thousand, so it's really really small
Speaker 1: even now. And he had, you know, very working class parents.
Speaker 1: His father was a long distance truck driver. He had
Speaker 1: an older sister named Catherine, and the mother and father
Speaker 1: were both very very religious, you know, fundamentalist Christians. And
Speaker 1: his father was extremely abusive. He was an alcoholic and
Speaker 1: he spent you know, he had a very very difficult childhood,
Speaker 1: and the religion was you know, he had a real
Speaker 1: hard time with the religion. He told me that he
Speaker 1: always felt very out of place there in Nebraska. He
Speaker 1: was very small for his age, so he was teased
Speaker 1: a lot in school. He didn't gain his height until
Speaker 1: he was thirteen. He was always the smallest one in school.
Speaker 1: He was pushed in lockers, all of that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: And then when he went home, his father, you know,
Speaker 1: would come home from a long trip and he was
Speaker 1: very abusive to not only him, but to the mother
Speaker 1: and the sister, to all of them. He was beaten
Speaker 1: terribly so and then the father, his Tim's father, died
Speaker 1: in a truck driving accident when he was only thirteen,
Speaker 1: and the mother, Susan Strong, Susan Bohim, met a man
Speaker 1: that was from Denver named Walter Strong, and she eventually
Speaker 1: would remarry him, and then the family relocated to Denver.
Speaker 1: So then by the time he was in Denver. By
Speaker 1: the time he moved to Denver, he was just right
Speaker 1: out of high school. Now I skipped a little part there.
Speaker 1: He had a girlfriend that he was very seriously involved with,
Speaker 1: and she was African American and that caused a lot
Speaker 1: of strife in the family. That she was one of
Speaker 1: very few there in Nebraska. Even now there's very few
Speaker 1: black people. Then it was, you know, thirty three years back,
Speaker 1: thirty years back, it was really a big no no there.
Speaker 1: I mean, they frowned upon those kind of interracial relationships.
Speaker 1: Not only did he have a girlfriend, he went ahead
Speaker 1: and had a child with this girl who was terribly
Speaker 1: addicted to drugs and wound up dying shortly after childbirth.
Speaker 1: Now this was he was in Denver, and then he
Speaker 1: got a pregnant. You know, he'd go back and forth
Speaker 1: between Denver and Nebraska to visit her. It's not that
Speaker 1: far in the car to make the drive, and so
Speaker 1: then she got pregnant, and then he was left at
Speaker 1: that point when she died, there was no one else
Speaker 1: to care for him. So by the time he was
Speaker 1: nineteen years old, he was a single father with a baby.
Speaker 1: Now start at the wheels turning. Yes, Now, in terms of.
Speaker 8: His future career, what was he what was his transformation
Speaker 8: like from this sort of smaller than normal sort of kid.
Speaker 8: How did he blossom? What did he look like? What
Speaker 8: was this transformation like? And when did this happen that
Speaker 8: he became this guy that you know that he wasn't
Speaker 8: when he was younger. Let's put it that way.
Speaker 1: Right, in high school, he gravitated towards the theater because
Speaker 1: he said people in the theater were just more accepting,
Speaker 1: you know, they were more open minded. So he started
Speaker 1: to do plays in high school. He started to get
Speaker 1: into that. People told them, you know, you're really nice looking,
Speaker 1: you have a really nice look. And then he started
Speaker 1: doing modeling when he moved to Denver, because there really
Speaker 1: wasn't any anything and that small part of Nebraska would
Speaker 1: have had to go to Omah. He didn't want to
Speaker 1: do that. He was already in Denver, so he started
Speaker 1: modeling in Denver, and so that's where he started. He
Speaker 1: found himself in the arts, modeling, doing that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: And then he really had to amp it up because
Speaker 1: after the girlfriend died, he had this child that he
Speaker 1: was responsible for. So that I believe, I believe that
Speaker 1: if he wouldn't have the child, you and I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be talking right now. That's just what I think. I
Speaker 1: think that caused a lot of the roads that he
Speaker 1: took at that young age that he kind of was
Speaker 1: in a panic. He didn't know what to do basically,
Speaker 1: and didn't have a lot of support from the family.
Speaker 1: He just didn't have it. He was basically on his
Speaker 1: own with the child. That's hard for anyone, but a
Speaker 1: nineteen year old kid, that's a male. Very hard.
Speaker 8: Now you say he was you say he was doing
Speaker 8: some modeling, and so tell us what type of modeling
Speaker 8: he started off with. And then when you say he
Speaker 8: became you know, he realized he was a single father
Speaker 8: at nineteen years of age and had to really was
Speaker 8: responsible for the child now and himself. That might have changed.
Speaker 8: That changed obviously. So tell us what kind of modeling
Speaker 8: he started off with and what kind of things he
Speaker 8: was entertaining as he became more desperate.
Speaker 1: As you say, he was signed. He was signed in
Speaker 1: Denver with maximum talent and they're still there now, just
Speaker 1: doing you know, legitimate modeling runway where a catalog work
Speaker 1: for like sea years and that kind of thing. Lots.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's I mean, you see his picture there.
Speaker 1: He's very phologetic. He's a very good looking person, and
Speaker 1: he's tall. He was, you know when he got his hide,
Speaker 1: he was six' one. He's had a perfect model look.
Speaker 1: Back in the day. So that's what he was doing.
Speaker 1: He was doing legitimate modeling at first. That's how it started.
Speaker 1: But you know, they told him, you know, Tim, people
Speaker 1: would tell him, you know, you have a really good
Speaker 1: look in Denver, but they said, to really get anywhere
Speaker 1: and to really make money in this business, you've got
Speaker 1: to be either in New York or in la I mean,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna really, You're gonna get as far as
Speaker 1: you can go here regionally, but to really get to
Speaker 1: a bigger place, you have to be in a bit
Speaker 1: in one of those cities. So that's how that started.
Speaker 1: But he started to get into the escort business in Denver.
Speaker 1: He started he became a male escort there. That was
Speaker 1: before the porn So that's where the escorting and the
Speaker 1: kind of underbelly CD world that he found himself in
Speaker 1: started in Denver, which a lot of people think it's
Speaker 1: this small little city of Denver is a big metropolitan
Speaker 1: city with all of that stuff too, and between the
Speaker 1: people with the suburbs. So that's where that all started.
Speaker 1: The the blue stuff that he was doing, it's harder
Speaker 1: than Denver, but it was mostly men that he had.
Speaker 1: Mostly it was male customers that he had. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, women don't have to know IR escorts, so
Speaker 1: it with mostly men that he was catering to.
Speaker 8: Sure was it what was his own sexual orientation officially?
Speaker 1: And you know that's a great debate when the when
Speaker 1: the incident had, I mean, he was he had a girl,
Speaker 1: he had a baby, he had always had a girlfriend.
Speaker 1: But I think that's part another issue with what made
Speaker 1: him so angry. I believe that he's that. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's hard to get. It was very difficult to get
Speaker 1: a straight answer out of him as far as because
Speaker 1: we discussed that a great detail because when he went
Speaker 1: in did his porn, it was gay porn primarily, and
Speaker 1: he said that, you know, I think it was gay.
Speaker 1: I mean, to do what he did, you have to
Speaker 1: be gay. That was a big issue and when it
Speaker 1: went down, everybody said that he hated gays, and it
Speaker 1: was there's a whole a lot of stuff with that.
Speaker 1: I don't think he hated gays. I think he hated
Speaker 1: the fact that he was gay. That's what I think.
Speaker 1: I mean, he probably would say he was bisexual. That's
Speaker 1: what he's going to say, right, I just leave me.
Speaker 1: I don't say I don't say what he is or
Speaker 1: what he's not. I mean, if you watch some of
Speaker 1: his movies like I have, it's hard to see this
Speaker 1: person as a straight man when you see what I've
Speaker 1: seen that you know, that's up to the reader.
Speaker 8: Now you talk about the CD element of this, and
Speaker 8: really you really do bring the reader into that CD
Speaker 8: element at Underbelly, no matter how legit it may look
Speaker 8: at anyone's viewpoint. But we're what we're talking what kind
Speaker 8: of money were we talking about when he's doing escorts
Speaker 8: and this is before he gets to California, so we're
Speaker 8: talking about Denver kind of money we're talking about with this.
Speaker 1: Scene hourly, right, he had hourly clients when he was
Speaker 1: an escort, so it was probably around one hundred and
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty was an hour. And we're talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, years back here. He was maybe nineteen twenty
Speaker 1: when he was doing that, when he was an escort,
Speaker 1: so we're going back, you know, fifteen sixteen years, so
Speaker 1: it's about one hundred and twenty five dollars an hour.
Speaker 1: And then he said he had overnights like with he
Speaker 1: would stay overnight with someone and it was you know,
Speaker 1: but it was a lot more than he could make
Speaker 1: doing a regular job, you know, and a straight job
Speaker 1: is what he called it. He said he just could
Speaker 1: not make enough money in doing any kind of straight
Speaker 1: work to sport a child. He couldn't do it, That's
Speaker 1: what he said. And just you know, reporting what he said.
Speaker 8: Now with this is he's making good money and he's
Speaker 8: making steady money. How does he handle that money? What's
Speaker 8: his lifestyle like? Is he is he an arrogant person
Speaker 8: with via this money? How does he what's his personality
Speaker 8: was going?
Speaker 1: Right now? He drove a pickup truck, you know, the
Speaker 1: same pickup truck that he had all through high school.
Speaker 1: He got himself a little tiny apartment. His family did
Speaker 1: he I mean, his mother helped a little, his sister
Speaker 1: helped a little, but you know, they all had to work.
Speaker 1: Nobody in that family was independently wealthy. Everyone worked, so
Speaker 1: they all had to work. And to have an infant,
Speaker 1: a small child is a full time thing. Nobody could
Speaker 1: really sit there and say, okay, here, I'm gonna watch
Speaker 1: the child. Either they couldn't or they didn't want to.
Speaker 1: And you go work, or you go back to school,
Speaker 1: or you do whatever you have done. And no one
Speaker 1: really said that. And he said when he got down
Speaker 1: to looking at daycare what daycare would cost for an infant,
Speaker 1: he said, he just felt that he needed to make
Speaker 1: a certain amount of money. He got himself a little
Speaker 1: tiny apartment like a studio for himself and the baby,
Speaker 1: and he went and did he did modeling, and then
Speaker 1: he did his escorting. And that's basically he just was
Speaker 1: to pay the bills. He didn't go and buy himself
Speaker 1: a nice car. He didn't go and do a flash
Speaker 1: and desh. He lived very simple, meager lifestyle, just to
Speaker 1: support his child in the beginning. That's what it was.
Speaker 8: Did he have a history in high school developed at
Speaker 8: some point a drug problem? Was this an issue?
Speaker 1: No, there was no drugs or alcohol. The girlfriend was
Speaker 1: a drug addict, which was interesting to me when I
Speaker 1: was you know, because you would think he wouldn't be
Speaker 1: involved with somebody that was a drugs and he said
Speaker 1: it was a term. I mean he would he said
Speaker 1: he would drink, he'd go down and have a beer,
Speaker 1: but no drugs. And he begged her every which way
Speaker 1: and Sunday for her to stop, to go to rehab,
Speaker 1: and she would stop and she would get cleaned up.
Speaker 1: She managed to stay clean enough while she was pregnant
Speaker 1: through most of it, not to you know, transfer anything,
Speaker 1: because the baby was born healthy. But right after she
Speaker 1: delivered the baby, he said, a few days later, she
Speaker 1: was doing drugs again. And we're talking about hardcore drugs, cocaine, math, crack,
Speaker 1: all of that stuff. She was doing dust. But he
Speaker 1: didn't do that. He never He did not have a
Speaker 1: drug or alcohol problem him ever and never had any
Speaker 1: kind of legal problems, never was arrested. Never.
Speaker 8: Now, when does he make a decision to go to
Speaker 8: California and why does he make that decision? And based
Speaker 8: on what well, there were.
Speaker 1: A few things he's really hated himself, and for being
Speaker 1: an escort. He hated it. He hated being an escort,
Speaker 1: so he felt and everybody kept telling him. And he
Speaker 1: was still doing the modeling when he was an escort.
Speaker 1: He was still a model, so everybody was telling him
Speaker 1: in the industry that if you just go out of
Speaker 1: LA or New York, you can do better. So that's
Speaker 1: why he did it. He wanted to get out of
Speaker 1: being an ascort. He was trying to, you know, be
Speaker 1: an actor, be a model and do it successfully in
Speaker 1: a legitimate market, but just make more money. He just
Speaker 1: wasn't making enough in Denver as a model. So that's
Speaker 1: when he decided to go. And he decided to go
Speaker 1: to California because it was it was old, that geography,
Speaker 1: it was closer, you know, if he wanted to make it.
Speaker 1: The drive, it's a twenty four hour drive, it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's an hour and a half playing my versus New York.
Speaker 1: It's further so. And he had a few friends that
Speaker 1: were living in Las that he met while he was
Speaker 1: a model that went on to LA to model, so
Speaker 1: he knew where. He had a few places where he
Speaker 1: could stay. So he just thought it would be easier
Speaker 1: from the Goats to LA. So that's what he did.
Speaker 1: He went to LA.
Speaker 8: And then how old was he at that time? Roundabouts?
Speaker 1: How old was he. He was twenty one when he
Speaker 1: went to LA, twenty one, so he was in LA.
Speaker 1: He settled in West Hollywood, which, if you know LA,
Speaker 1: that's kind of a predominantly gay area. A lot of
Speaker 1: gay people live in West Hollywood. I asked him why
Speaker 1: he lived in LA, why he would go to West Hollywood.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of places you can go
Speaker 1: because I've lived in LA for a long time too,
Speaker 1: And he said, well, that's where I knew someone that
Speaker 1: was living there. So I went there, went and stayed
Speaker 1: with them. And he said, I gave myself three months.
Speaker 1: That's all I could manage, So all I could get
Speaker 1: a commitment for to watch his daughter was three months.
Speaker 1: Because he didn't have money to go back and forth
Speaker 1: for the three months. He had to stay there and work,
Speaker 1: you know, and try to work. So he said, I
Speaker 1: gave myself three months to make it, to get some
Speaker 1: kind of work in a movie, a TV show, get
Speaker 1: some modeling work, get any kind of work that I
Speaker 1: could make money with. So he gave himself three months.
Speaker 1: So he tried. I mean, he went on auditions, he
Speaker 1: went on cattle calls, he did all of that stuff
Speaker 1: that actors and models do and got nowhere. He parked cars,
Speaker 1: he tried to work in a restaurant. He did have
Speaker 1: an anger problem, no drug problem, but a very bad
Speaker 1: anger problem. And he wouldn't last long when he tried
Speaker 1: to get like a job to supplement his acting or
Speaker 1: whatever he was doing. He wouldn't last at a restaurant
Speaker 1: or driving or whatever it was. He just he would
Speaker 1: have flare ups, and he would have those kinds of problems.
Speaker 1: Now on the last part of the three months, like
Speaker 1: the last few days when he was getting ready to
Speaker 1: go back to Denver. There's varying stories of what happened next.
Speaker 1: So that's another thing. I mean, I know my side.
Speaker 1: You're gonna ask him what he says. It's a different
Speaker 1: side than you ask a third person. It's another story.
Speaker 1: It's very hard to corroborate this particular story because him
Speaker 1: has a problem with the truth. You know, a lot
Speaker 1: of it was helpful to me in this particular case
Speaker 1: because I knew the victim. That then we're getting back
Speaker 1: to when he's back in Denver. But I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been able to get at the truth in this case
Speaker 1: of what actually happened with the murder if I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have known the victim. And that's only because he's such
Speaker 1: a liar, this kid. He lies like it's like it's nothing,
Speaker 1: like it's drinking water. I was only able to tease
Speaker 1: together what happened in this particular case because I knew
Speaker 1: the victim, Because I personally knew the victim. If that
Speaker 1: makes sense right, well.
Speaker 8: Well you'll be able to explain that, because that's a fascinating,
Speaker 8: fascinating element of this story, just adding another incredible twist
Speaker 8: to this. So now I wanted to ask about this,
Speaker 8: and I think the audience would ask this as well.
Speaker 8: This guy's a real muscular guy. Part of the industry
Speaker 8: is that these guys got to look real buff. Maybe
Speaker 8: back in the day they didn't, but I think they
Speaker 8: always had to, as he's always had to. So this rage,
Speaker 8: these these fits of rage, they have anything to do
Speaker 8: with steroid juice?
Speaker 6: Was that him?
Speaker 1: I asked? And he's not. You know, if you see
Speaker 1: him in person, I mean by the time I saw
Speaker 1: him in person, you know, he was out of the
Speaker 1: porn business for a long time. But even if you
Speaker 1: watch his films, he's not like roided up on steroid juice.
Speaker 1: He doesn't have the very very sand I mean, but moscular.
Speaker 1: I mean he worked out in a gym and he's
Speaker 1: he's mu sure enough that you can buy that he's
Speaker 1: going to a gym, he's working out. He's not. He
Speaker 1: was never Arnold Schwarzenegger muscular or even slider than that.
Speaker 1: I mean, his didn't look fabricated. His muscles they looked
Speaker 1: real from working out, and he worked out every day
Speaker 1: and twice a day, and a lots of protein and
Speaker 1: knew how to lean. I mean, but I don't think
Speaker 1: it was any kind of I think there was some
Speaker 1: mental illness, and the mental illness was part of He
Speaker 1: was abused, he was beaten, and then a lot of
Speaker 1: those types of people grow up to be very violent
Speaker 1: people themselves. And I think that's what it was a
Speaker 1: matter of why he was so violent. That and a
Speaker 1: lot of self loathing. But I think why he was
Speaker 1: so angry and violent was a lot of different relations
Speaker 1: and things that he did was because that's what he
Speaker 1: saw when he grew up. That's all he saw was
Speaker 1: violence when it was growing up. That's it. So a
Speaker 1: lot of those types of people grow up to be
Speaker 1: violent too.
Speaker 8: Now, was there when you talk about mental illness? Was
Speaker 8: when was he first diagnosed? Was there any diagnosis before
Speaker 8: this this incredible crime?
Speaker 1: In high school? He was diagnosed with bipolar. He was
Speaker 1: diagnosed as bipolar when he was in high school. The
Speaker 1: mother who took him to therapy because of his anger issues.
Speaker 1: That was when they were still in Nebraska, So he
Speaker 1: was bipolar.
Speaker 8: Was there any instances that involving police or any No,
Speaker 8: there was.
Speaker 1: Never in just the way he just the way he
Speaker 1: interacted with family, with friends, they felt that he was,
Speaker 1: you know, angry, that he was an angry kid. Always
Speaker 1: he would throw things. There was never anything where he
Speaker 1: would be arrested or come to the police attention, but
Speaker 1: he would throw things. He would break things when he
Speaker 1: was in anger, that kind of thing. He never hit
Speaker 1: anybody or beat anyone. Never any of that. No child
Speaker 1: to anything that I've talked to, people that you know,
Speaker 1: saw him interact, his family, his mother's history. He never
Speaker 1: was abusive towards his child either.
Speaker 8: Any of these fits of rage did he Again, in retrospect,
Speaker 8: it's always easier to then remember something that might fit,
Speaker 8: you know, somewhat into behavior. But is there anything that
Speaker 8: was there? These fits of raids characterized by anything that
Speaker 8: people would say later that you know, sort of lost
Speaker 8: control and didn't know what he was doing, couldn't stop
Speaker 8: fighting or anything.
Speaker 1: No, No, he just is angry. He just most people
Speaker 1: that I talked to and from what I personally saw him,
Speaker 1: because I had a lot of interaction with him myself,
Speaker 1: he was just a very angry, angry Hey.
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Speaker 2: Don't necessary.
Speaker 1: I lost the terms conditions eighteen plus would snap very
Speaker 1: quickly and get angry, lose his temper, mad, that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. It didn't take much to set him off.
Speaker 1: That's what it was, I think. Not that he was
Speaker 1: in a blind rage. He didn't know what he was doing.
Speaker 1: He always knew what he was doing. But that's what
Speaker 1: you mean, right, That was what you mean? Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: he's just a very very angry person, not a mellow person. Angry,
Speaker 1: very very angry type of person. You don't think of peace.
Speaker 1: And then when you see someone like that, sure you
Speaker 1: just think angry. It's hard to picture when you watch
Speaker 1: his film, because I've seen a lot of his films.
Speaker 1: He was a pretty good actor. I think he could
Speaker 1: have done very well in regular if you just would
Speaker 1: have had the opportunity regular film, because he was a
Speaker 1: decent actor. That's the kind of films. Those porno films
Speaker 1: that he did. I know, I'm getting ad but they're
Speaker 1: very they're known the type of films they did for
Speaker 1: more dialogue than a lot of the other porn because
Speaker 1: of the director that did it. But he was a
Speaker 1: decent actor in them if you actually watch the films,
Speaker 1: and I think that he had a lot of potential
Speaker 1: to be a good actor, because what you see on
Speaker 1: film is very, very different than what the real person
Speaker 1: is like. That's why I'm saying that.
Speaker 8: Extremely Now, you say, you talk about the ninety days
Speaker 8: that he gives himself this window to make to see
Speaker 8: if that he can make it, and then he has
Speaker 8: to go back. So tell us about his mood after days.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was bad. He was frustrated, he was mad,
Speaker 1: he was upset. You know, he was felt very defeated,
Speaker 1: he said, because he didn't feel that. You know, he
Speaker 1: was trying every day, he was out there making the rounds,
Speaker 1: doing what he had to do but getting his head
Speaker 1: shots out. But he wasn't getting any homebags. I mean,
Speaker 1: he would go on auditions, but he just didn't get anywhere.
Speaker 1: He would go on several additions, but he didn't get anywhere.
Speaker 1: He wasn't making money. He couldn't stay there. I mean,
Speaker 1: the plan was if he made it, he was going
Speaker 1: to move his daughter out there with him. He was
Speaker 1: trying to do that to get his own place. It's
Speaker 1: very expensive to do in LA. You really got to
Speaker 1: have you got to do something. You can't just be
Speaker 1: sleeping on someone's couch, especially in his case he had
Speaker 1: a child. I mean, everything would have worked differently had
Speaker 1: he not had the child. That's why I said that earlier.
Speaker 1: He could have maybe stayed there a few years and
Speaker 1: tried to do legitimate work. But he was on the
Speaker 1: timetable because of the child, because he only had a
Speaker 1: commitment from three months from the family members to watch
Speaker 1: her while he was out there auditioning. That was the problem,
Speaker 1: and the child was a problem in this scheme, in
Speaker 1: the grand scheme of things. I mean, this is just
Speaker 1: my opinion, but that's what I think. I just think
Speaker 1: it would have went down a lot differently. Many people
Speaker 1: that break into the movie business and the modeling business,
Speaker 1: it takes them years. Sometimes, you know, they're working in
Speaker 1: a restaurant, they're driving a cab, they're doing what they
Speaker 1: have to because they don't have kids. They can do that.
Speaker 1: You have that luxury when you're just worrying about yourself.
Speaker 1: You can go sleep at the beach. If the web's nice,
Speaker 1: you don't really have to worry about it, if it's
Speaker 1: just right. Well, a lot more that you can do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot more that you can do when you
Speaker 1: don't have when you're not responsible for a child. And
Speaker 1: that's in that instance, under those circumstances.
Speaker 8: So no, he didn't give himself. He only gave himself
Speaker 8: that ninety days. And like I say, it seemed to
Speaker 8: be resentful after that. So how does he proceed after that?
Speaker 1: Well, you call his Mommy told me. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think there was a lot of resentment for his family.
Speaker 1: There was, and it could be you know, he's blaming,
Speaker 1: but he's the one that got the girl pregnant. I
Speaker 1: even told him that, you know, I can't blame the
Speaker 1: whole world. But he would call his mom and he
Speaker 1: would say, you know, mom, can't you just watch for
Speaker 1: another week and I think I might get a call back?
Speaker 1: Can't isn't this something that you can do? And they
Speaker 1: said no, because then and then I asked the mother
Speaker 1: because they spend a lot of time with his family,
Speaker 1: and she said that she was afraid to do that
Speaker 1: because he was the type that would take advantage. And
Speaker 1: then she had a job and she didn't want to
Speaker 1: get fired from her job. She had to be able
Speaker 1: to work. I mean it took a lot to be
Speaker 1: able to watch her for three months. Everybody had to,
Speaker 1: you know, they didn't they just because we were afraid
Speaker 1: if we gave him another week then he would then
Speaker 1: he would say, Okay, I need another week. So they
Speaker 1: stuck by that three month window for him.
Speaker 8: Now tell us about the go ahead?
Speaker 1: Sorry, yeah, yeah, And he was like to say, he
Speaker 1: was very resentful. He was very, very frustrated by that point. Okay,
Speaker 1: you want to know when he met chee chee.
Speaker 8: Yes, please tell us about the film.
Speaker 1: Okay. So he was just about he was all packed
Speaker 1: and ready to go back. He had three days left
Speaker 1: of that and they were serious on the other end
Speaker 1: of Denver because his mother actually gave him an ultimate
Speaker 1: um and said John Naol called him by his middle name,
Speaker 1: which is John. They said, John, if you don't come
Speaker 1: back on the point to day, we're coming La with
Speaker 1: Jasmine was his daughter's name. Where coming with Jasmine? And
Speaker 1: where you let us know where you are and we're
Speaker 1: dropping her off. That's how I mean. They were very
Speaker 1: strict with him about that. So he knew they weren't
Speaker 1: playing games that he had to go back. He knew
Speaker 1: that so by the third day, by the before on
Speaker 1: this when he had three days left. This is what
Speaker 1: he says. This is his story that he says. I
Speaker 1: believe it's kind of the truth from what I know
Speaker 1: because I've talked to you. He said he was walking
Speaker 1: down Santa Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood, just say after
Speaker 1: he went and had something to eat and would just
Speaker 1: like to see the movies. Chee Chi LaRue, who is
Speaker 1: a very prolific pornographer in the not only in the
Speaker 1: gay pornography, but in straight I mean he's handled Jenna
Speaker 1: Jamison and he's done all kinds of pornography, but he's
Speaker 1: very well known in those quarters, was walking down the street,
Speaker 1: not in drag because Chee Chee is his stage name.
Speaker 1: But he was just stressed as a man because he
Speaker 1: dresses as Chee Chee, which is his woman alter ego.
Speaker 1: But he was just stressed as a man walking down
Speaker 1: the street. And he said he saw him and he
Speaker 1: turned his head and he said, are you in actor?
Speaker 1: And he said no, I'm I do some modeling. I'm
Speaker 1: I do I've been trying to be an actor. And
Speaker 1: you see a lot of those types in La like him.
Speaker 1: I mean there were diamond dozen that were roll over
Speaker 1: the place. So he said that to Tim and it
Speaker 1: was with and and he gave him his business card
Speaker 1: and he said and he said, what do you do?
Speaker 1: He asked Chee Chee? Tim, Tim asked Chi Chee. He said, well,
Speaker 1: I make movies, adult films. And he didn't beat around
Speaker 1: the bush and he didn't lie. He told him straight up.
Speaker 1: He said money and chee Chi LaRue. It said che
Speaker 1: Chi LaRue on the card, not his real name, which
Speaker 1: is Larry Pacodi, that's Cheechee's real name, but it said
Speaker 1: Chee Chi LaRue without Falcon Films, which is his film studio.
Speaker 1: And he said adult films, Like, what what do you mean?
Speaker 1: And he said porn out porn porn films, and he said, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: So he took his card and then he went back
Speaker 1: to his room where he was staying, and he said,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna call him, but then he called him
Speaker 1: because he said he was desperty. He was trying everything
Speaker 1: in the world not to call him, but finally called
Speaker 1: him and had dinner like the next night or something,
Speaker 1: and they were discussing his film practice. He didn't tell
Speaker 1: him that it was that it was gay stuff that
Speaker 1: he was thinking of him doing. He just said he
Speaker 1: does porn. He didn't say it was gay porn, but
Speaker 1: he said and I said, say, you never heard because
Speaker 1: even I heard of him before. I mean, and I
Speaker 1: never knew about porno, but I have heard of cheating
Speaker 1: the rue. I knew who he was way before this.
Speaker 1: And I said, you never heard of cheating the room.
Speaker 1: He said, no, I never watched pornography, and certainly not
Speaker 1: that gay stuff. I never watched. I had no idea
Speaker 1: who he was. I never heard of him before, That's
Speaker 1: what he said. And it's possibly who was twenty one.
Speaker 1: He didn't know who he was, and then that's how
Speaker 1: he got into the porn business. From that point forward,
Speaker 1: he just he said he thought it. Well, he said
Speaker 1: he thought about it, you know, And he said, well,
Speaker 1: I have sex with people, why not, So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: have sex with people again, so might as well get
Speaker 1: paid and then I don't have to go back to
Speaker 1: Denver with my tale between my life. That was his attitude.
Speaker 1: That was his initial attitude about actually going and doing it,
Speaker 1: because he really didn't want to go back to Denver defeated.
Speaker 1: And then he said, well was he going to do
Speaker 1: when he got back to Denver. He would need a
Speaker 1: job there anyway. I mean, when he got back to Denver,
Speaker 1: he'd need a job. He'd have to make money to
Speaker 1: poor as child. It was just that they could watch
Speaker 1: her and not think taking. I mean, he had to
Speaker 1: go back and support her. He had to have money,
Speaker 1: no matter where he was. That's what he told me.
Speaker 1: No matter what city he was in, he had to
Speaker 1: be making money. So that's he said. It was. I
Speaker 1: never thought in a million years if he would have
Speaker 1: told me a week before even that that would have
Speaker 1: been my fate. On that day, that night that I'm
Speaker 1: sitting there even with him, contemplating that I'm going to
Speaker 1: go to and do porn. And he said whether it
Speaker 1: was gay or street. Did it really matter at that point?
Speaker 1: You're selling your soul. Once you do that kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: you're selling yourself. Doesn't matter if it's a cow, if
Speaker 1: it's a person, if it's a woman. He said, I
Speaker 1: didn't think it really mattered at that point. That's what
Speaker 1: he told me, because I said, he didn't tell you
Speaker 1: at dinner that it was going to be gay porn.
Speaker 1: Right now, he said, show up at Van Eys, because
Speaker 1: that's where a lot of the you know, North Hollywood
Speaker 1: Van Eys, that's where a lot of the porn that
Speaker 1: was made, probably ninety percent of the porn that any
Speaker 1: everyone watches is made in the valley say. He said,
Speaker 1: you show up at a house and tell you where
Speaker 1: to go. You walk in, it's people all over the
Speaker 1: place moving around. And said the thing that really surprised
Speaker 1: him at the whole thing, as a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: you going, you do, you think, you leave. It's not
Speaker 1: a big deal. It's not any of that stuff like
Speaker 1: you would think that it would be. It's nothing. To them.
Speaker 1: They go in, they do it, and they just go
Speaker 1: have a pizza after. It's not a big deal. It's nothing.
Speaker 1: That's what he said. His initial you know, orientation into
Speaker 1: the whole thing. And it's not you don't get you.
Speaker 1: You say, here's your person, you're gonna be doing a
Speaker 1: scene with, this is how it's gonna go. This is
Speaker 1: how it's gonna be, and that's it. You just do it.
Speaker 1: You don't make a big deal. You doesn't work like
Speaker 1: that like you would think that it would be this big,
Speaker 1: big thing. It's not. I mean, and she he said,
Speaker 1: she's just very very rich. You didn't very control. I mean,
Speaker 1: he just he wants it this way, this way, that way,
Speaker 1: and you do it or or you don't work for him.
Speaker 1: There's no modely coddling. You don't want to do it.
Speaker 1: I got one hundred guys that will do it. That's
Speaker 1: his attitude that he has. You don't want to do it.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to model and coddle you. That's the
Speaker 1: kind of thing. He's not begging anybody to do it.
Speaker 1: It's it's hideous and awful. As many people think that
Speaker 1: it is, there's many people that still want to do it.
Speaker 8: Though certainly certainly, yeah, what what is his family, his
Speaker 8: sister and his mother's reaction to the to the deadline,
Speaker 8: him not making the deadline. Making the deadline.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he didn't tell them anything, you know, he said,
Speaker 1: that's the whole part of this story. I mean, he told, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, I got a modeling gig. They go, that's great,
Speaker 1: And he said, so I could say, and he told
Speaker 1: Chreachy the whole thing with the deadline, because I got
Speaker 1: to have a cash advance. I've got to have some
Speaker 1: money so that I can go back and get set
Speaker 1: up there in Denver and get babysitter and do all
Speaker 1: of that so that dead her out of their hands
Speaker 1: and so that I can go back and forth. And
Speaker 1: he did agree to that. He fronted him a lot
Speaker 1: more money than he would because he was under those conditions,
Speaker 1: you know, and he had a kid, and he took
Speaker 1: mercy on him and said he fronted him the money
Speaker 1: he was able to, you know, fly back to Denver,
Speaker 1: take care and stuff, get him to a place to
Speaker 1: get babysitters, due all of that. So what he did
Speaker 1: was he didn't tell his family any of day. He said,
Speaker 1: I got a really good modeling gig. He just made
Speaker 1: up some you know bs stuff about what he was doing.
Speaker 1: He didn't say he was doing any of that. You know,
Speaker 1: they wouldn't. Never, they wouldn't. I mean they was very
Speaker 1: religious Christians that we're talking about here, that never missed
Speaker 1: church on Sunday and went to Bible study during the week,
Speaker 1: very very religious people. Because I met them, very religious.
Speaker 1: So I mean he didn't tell them the truth. He
Speaker 1: just said, I got a modeling gig. When we're gonna
Speaker 1: see it, Oh, I don't know. You know, it takes
Speaker 1: a long time till he get production, you know, make
Speaker 1: up with all kinds of stories. But they were just
Speaker 1: happy that he got something. I never thought anything that
Speaker 1: he was doing that, never thought that. They were just
Speaker 1: relieved that he got something, that he was able to
Speaker 1: come back, relieve them of their duties and he was
Speaker 1: seemingly getting his life in order. They were relieved and
Speaker 1: proud of him. His mother said, I was so proud
Speaker 1: of John. I was very happy for him. I thought, maybe,
Speaker 1: you know, he'll be able to have a good life
Speaker 1: for him and Jasmine. That's what she said initially. So
Speaker 1: he was a leading a double life, basically, it's what
Speaker 1: what what happened next?
Speaker 8: Well, I was gonna say, is it you talked about
Speaker 8: how Chee Chee ran a film set? How did how
Speaker 8: did he how did he like working in the movies.
Speaker 1: He hated it. He absolutely hated it. He hated it
Speaker 1: from day one and hated it every second of every day.
Speaker 1: That's when he started drinking. He never drank like that,
Speaker 1: I mean a beer here or there, but not like
Speaker 1: an alcohol alcoholic type level drinking. He said he couldn't
Speaker 1: do it sober. He could not do it sober, I
Speaker 1: mean like right after a rite before. He did it
Speaker 1: enough so that he could perform, but he was drunk
Speaker 1: most of the time when he was making those movies.
Speaker 1: But he said, it's just very, very difficult to do
Speaker 1: it sober. It was very hard for him. He just
Speaker 1: hated himself. He said, I just felt so bad about myself.
Speaker 1: It was hard to look in the mirror doing that stuff.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 1: And there were a lot of issues. I mean, if
Speaker 1: you read the book, you see what some of those
Speaker 1: issues were why he hated it so much. There were
Speaker 1: health issues, you know. He was very concerned that his
Speaker 1: daughter would one day find out that our father was
Speaker 1: making porno. He was very concerned about that. He said,
Speaker 1: it would have all been different. Maybe I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been as embarrassed as I was. It was very embarrassing.
Speaker 1: He was very embarrassed by it. Maybe I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been as embarrassed if I didn't I wasn't somebody's parent,
Speaker 1: and I didn't have this child that was looking to
Speaker 1: me for everything. Maybe I can't tell you because I
Speaker 1: don't know because I was somebody's parent doing it. And
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I asked him once. I said,
Speaker 1: you know, there's lots of people that have children that
Speaker 1: are porn stars. Porn for many of them. Jenna Jamison
Speaker 1: has children. Many people have children, and some of them
Speaker 1: have messed up children, and some of them do. He
Speaker 1: goes made but was not. I just found it very
Speaker 1: difficult as somebody's father to be standing there doing that.
Speaker 1: It's a very difficult thing to rationalize in my mind.
Speaker 8: Tell us about, you know, him meeting Jenna Jamison in
Speaker 8: their relationship. Tell us a little bit about that. It's
Speaker 8: an interesting thing.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I don't really I don't think. I
Speaker 1: don't even know if because I have never seen all
Speaker 1: the films that I've seen him do were mostly with men,
Speaker 1: so I think they did some scenes together. I don't
Speaker 1: know if the scenes actually got into because I haven't
Speaker 1: seen every film that he's made. I've seen a lot
Speaker 1: of them, but not everyone. He made a lot of
Speaker 1: films and very short amount of times, and climbed up
Speaker 1: the torn old ladder very you know. He won awards.
Speaker 1: He was on the cover of Freshman magazine, which is
Speaker 1: lots of magazine covers porno magazines that are for the
Speaker 1: porn industry. He made the cover. He was on the
Speaker 1: cover of play when he was finally arrested. He was
Speaker 1: on the cover of Playgirl magazine the day he was
Speaker 1: arrested and booked. He was on the that month he
Speaker 1: was on the cover of Playgirl magazine. I mean he
Speaker 1: rose very quickly up the ladder, up the porno ladder,
Speaker 1: very fast. Even Chee che said it was a very
Speaker 1: very fast climb. He just had that boy next door
Speaker 1: look about him. He has a very he's very very
Speaker 1: nice looking, but at the same time, he has a
Speaker 1: very innocent look about him, which is a little different
Speaker 1: from a lot of them. That's why they believe a
Speaker 1: lot of them network with him, that he moved up
Speaker 1: that quickly. And I don't know with Jenny, he did
Speaker 1: some scenes with her. I don't know if they actually
Speaker 1: made it onto tape and I know also that after
Speaker 1: he was arrested and in jail already, Chee Chi caught
Speaker 1: a lot of those movies and you know, release and
Speaker 1: some that were never released before were released after the
Speaker 1: fact after he was arrested. I mean, he made he
Speaker 1: did a lot of scenes with a lot of them
Speaker 1: that I didn't see the films actually, and I don't
Speaker 1: know where they are now. I don't know if they
Speaker 1: were ever released. He said that we're all really nice.
Speaker 1: He said he never had any problems with any of
Speaker 1: the performers. It wasn't them, that wasn't the issue. They
Speaker 1: were just going in and surviving. Some of them, some
Speaker 1: of them liked it, but a lot of them just
Speaker 1: were doing it to survive. They were working and it
Speaker 1: was a way. It was a means to an end,
Speaker 1: he said. He told me that he never had any
Speaker 1: issues with any of the performers. I heard different stories
Speaker 1: from like Chee Chee, for instance, because I've had conversations
Speaker 1: with Chee Chee myself. He told me a lot of
Speaker 1: very different diverging stories than what Tim said. Tim said
Speaker 1: he never had any problems with anybody. He got along
Speaker 1: with everybody on a porn set, never had any trouble
Speaker 1: with anybody, got along perfectly. Well, it's just a job.
Speaker 1: It was nothing for an with anybody. That's what he
Speaker 1: told me. But that's not what other people have told me.
Speaker 8: Now, the other character in this tragic story is John
Speaker 8: Paul Kelso. And you talked about you working for John Paulso. Whenever,
Speaker 8: that's the most advantageous. Tell us what you did, what
Speaker 8: your relationship was with JP Kelso, But first tell us
Speaker 8: about John Paul Kelso.
Speaker 1: Tell us about him John JP. Everybody called him JP
Speaker 1: so by his initials. Everyone did so. JP owned a
Speaker 1: collection agency called PRS Professional Recovery Systems, a huge collection
Speaker 1: agency in downtown Denver, and he had been in the
Speaker 1: credit and collection industry as whole adult life. I have
Speaker 1: a law background, a legal background, so in between, you know,
Speaker 1: writing gigs, I do like the life of a poor
Speaker 1: starving writer.
Speaker 8: You do.
Speaker 1: What you got to do is spot So I did
Speaker 1: some legal work for him, Like I would go and
Speaker 1: I would go through his file and see which ones
Speaker 1: had assets that they could sue to get ready for lawsuits.
Speaker 1: So that's what I did. I went through his files
Speaker 1: to see which ones there were assets to sue. Basically,
Speaker 1: that's what I did. So that's how I met JT.
Speaker 1: And just see they had ads out. I went and
Speaker 1: applied to do some part time like a freelancer with him.
Speaker 1: That's what I did. And he was openly gay. Okay,
Speaker 1: he would be fifty if he were alive now, he
Speaker 1: would be fifty two. He was openly gay and very
Speaker 1: very flamboyant. He made a lot of money in the
Speaker 1: credit and collection industry. Very flamboyant. I mean, Denver's not La.
Speaker 1: It's not as flamboyant as La. You know, you see
Speaker 1: Rolls Royces in La. They're on every corner. You don't
Speaker 1: see it as much in Denver. But that's what he drove.
Speaker 1: He drove around in the Rolls Royce. He had a
Speaker 1: rolex on his hand, he had a nice house. He
Speaker 1: was very wealthy and he flaunted his wealth. And he
Speaker 1: was openly gay, so it was not a secret. There
Speaker 1: was no fake marriages or not any of that stuff.
Speaker 1: Didn't care. That was the one thing if you read
Speaker 1: the book, that I had respect for him. I respected
Speaker 1: him because he was openly gay. He didn't hide the
Speaker 1: fact that he was gay. He didn't like it too bad.
Speaker 1: That was JZ. But he wasn't a very nice person.
Speaker 1: He was mean, He was nasty, and he treated his
Speaker 1: employees like dirt, treated them awful, and he screamed and
Speaker 1: he yelled, and he made no bones about the fact
Speaker 1: that he didn't like women and had no use for women.
Speaker 1: He said that, he actually said stuff like that. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I got up, and eventually I got up
Speaker 1: and I said, you know what do we want to
Speaker 1: discuss that? How I left? I mean I just went
Speaker 1: in there and did freelance work group. I wasn't a
Speaker 1: nine to five employee, like, I didn't sit there older.
Speaker 1: But it was just if you know anything about the
Speaker 1: credit and collection, just little cubicles and people would sit
Speaker 1: and the little cubicles make collection calls of you know,
Speaker 1: try and find people, skip trace, find people that were
Speaker 1: missing debtors that don't pay their bills, get on the
Speaker 1: phone and say, you know, you need to pay bill,
Speaker 1: or we're going to garnish a way. Just that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. That's what they were doing now. But how
Speaker 1: he made his money, he had a little interesting system
Speaker 1: that he did. He would buy debt wholesale, Like he
Speaker 1: would go all over the place and buy debt that
Speaker 1: was written off. Like things that were written off is uncollectible.
Speaker 1: Buy them for pennies on the dollar and try to sit,
Speaker 1: you know, and then when he collected, he bought the
Speaker 1: debt for pennies. So that's how he made his money.
Speaker 1: That's how he did it. That's how he was able
Speaker 1: to do it and made millions and millions of dollars.
Speaker 1: But he had he was a very shady person though.
Speaker 1: Before that he had a criminal record. It was interesting
Speaker 1: because Timboham, the mean, cold, hard, calculated porno killer, had
Speaker 1: a clean criminal record nothing, but JP Kelso had a
Speaker 1: long criminal record. He had, you know, embezzlement, fraud. He
Speaker 1: could even own the collection agency in his name because
Speaker 1: of that. You can't have a license to own a
Speaker 1: collection agency when you have those kind of crimes that
Speaker 1: you did. He had a silent partner, the silent partner
Speaker 1: or the business was in the silent partner's name, but
Speaker 1: JP owned it. I mean he was there physically every
Speaker 1: day in the office. She never saw the other one.
Speaker 1: He was there in his office every day. He owned
Speaker 1: it and he operated it. But the other one legally
Speaker 1: owned it. And he the reason why because he had
Speaker 1: a criminal record. It was just a very difficult, mean,
Speaker 1: nasty person. I didn't like him at all. He was mean.
Speaker 1: He was a horrible human being. And I don't know
Speaker 1: of any people because Denver was a big, small place,
Speaker 1: you know, especially in credit and collections, everybody knows each other.
Speaker 1: And I didn't never meet anyone at the time when
Speaker 1: he was alive, you know, I didn't meet anybody that
Speaker 1: knew him, that liked him. I never saw anyone that
Speaker 1: liked him. Most people did not like him. When you
Speaker 1: walked through the office he went in the day, everybody
Speaker 1: had the Denver post out or the Rocky Mountains. They
Speaker 1: were circling one ants. That's what his employees were sitting
Speaker 1: there doing all day. They were looking for other jobs
Speaker 1: because they hated it. So but I mean, the tension
Speaker 1: was always so thick in that place. So that was JP.
Speaker 1: Always with young men. He always had like a young
Speaker 1: assistant was sitting there in the office. Always had males,
Speaker 1: and he always in his office was young, nice looking
Speaker 1: man in all. That's all you saw when you walked in.
Speaker 1: And he was over very short and overweight physically. He's
Speaker 1: about five four maybe and fat, very very overweight. That's
Speaker 1: what he looked like physically.
Speaker 8: That's what I was going to ask because it's it's
Speaker 8: interesting to have this dichotomy between this flamboyant gay person.
Speaker 8: That's why I want to ask the description, just to
Speaker 8: really confound the audience with this description where he's this
Speaker 8: bad guy. Yeah, but he's a bad guy with this
Speaker 8: criminal past and yet he's this flamboyant gay guy. Does
Speaker 8: he have this element of malice to him at all?
Speaker 8: Or is he?
Speaker 1: I mean, he he had, you know, financial crimes. He
Speaker 1: didn't have violence, he didn't raise people, he didn't beat up,
Speaker 1: and he didn't have no assault, no violence, but he
Speaker 1: had financial crimes. That was mostly what he did all
Speaker 1: to just get money. Was greedy. He was a greedy
Speaker 1: greedy business people. We all know them, we all see them,
Speaker 1: those types of people. Unfortunately, that's what he was, and
Speaker 1: he was very very obnoxious. I would say, you know,
Speaker 1: I had a real moral lemma with his book too,
Speaker 1: because a lot of people romanticize victims and death. It's
Speaker 1: very common that you see that. I have other crime
Speaker 1: cases I'm working on now too, wh that has happened
Speaker 1: very high pro Jodyarius is another one that I'm currently
Speaker 1: working on. I'm communicating with her, you know, the one
Speaker 1: she murdered Travis there, and they did that. They do
Speaker 1: that with a lot of cases. And so I'm sitting
Speaker 1: here and I had the advantage because I knew Jap.
Speaker 1: So should I write all these things that I didn't like, Yes,
Speaker 1: because that's the truth. Just because he was murdered, that
Speaker 1: doesn't change the fact that he wasn't a nice person
Speaker 1: in that and that I personally did not like him.
Speaker 1: He was so mean and so nasty, you know. And
Speaker 1: I needed the ex tra income when I worked there,
Speaker 1: I really did. I had a child, suti feet, you know,
Speaker 1: I had a family, but did no money on earth
Speaker 1: is worth and walking in somewhere and dreading being there,
Speaker 1: you know, I would come home and I go, what
Speaker 1: And you know, I wrote him a letter and she said, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm going to use my writing skills here. And I
Speaker 1: handed it to him when I actually resigned, And in
Speaker 1: the bottom of the letter it said, you know when
Speaker 1: these days you're gonna look around the island and the
Speaker 1: islanders will be gone, you know. And I handed him
Speaker 1: the letter. He wrote it. I watched him read it,
Speaker 1: you know, and then I walked to my desk, gathered
Speaker 1: my stuff out and walked in, and he goes, okay, sure, Donna,
Speaker 1: he said to Mecha, I said, you know, you're really mean.
Speaker 1: You're a really mean person, and no one likes you.
Speaker 1: Do you understand it? He goes, I'm not here to
Speaker 1: win to make friends. I'm here to run a business.
Speaker 1: I don't care if anyone likes me. I said, I
Speaker 1: understand that you're here to run a business, but she don't.
Speaker 1: Don't have to be so damn mean. You're running a business,
Speaker 1: and this business takes employees to help you run it.
Speaker 1: If you need employees, then you need to treat them
Speaker 1: with respect. It's that simple, if you I mean, I
Speaker 1: made really good money sitting there with him, but it
Speaker 1: wasn't it just I just couldn't stand sitting there anyway.
Speaker 1: He would scream at people and brake them in front
Speaker 1: of other people instead of taking them in the office
Speaker 1: and you know, behind clothes doors, he did it right
Speaker 1: and in front of it. It just was horrible. I
Speaker 1: just it was just such a toxic, negative environment. I
Speaker 1: couldn't stand it anymore. I no amount of money was
Speaker 1: worth being in an environment like that. And he didn't
Speaker 1: even directly do it to me personally, he did it
Speaker 1: to other the way he treated people. I just couldn't
Speaker 1: stand being in that environment anymore. And I said to him,
Speaker 1: one of these days, and he was just so so snarky,
Speaker 1: you know, the way he looked at me, smiling like
Speaker 1: I was. I said, one of these days, James, he'd
Speaker 1: mark my words, one of these days, you're going to
Speaker 1: piss off the wrong person. That's all it takes is
Speaker 1: one person, wrong person being pissed off. Mark my words,
Speaker 1: It's gonna happen. And it did. Five years later. He
Speaker 1: was done. Five years after I said that, he was gone. Interesting,
Speaker 1: isn't it?
Speaker 8: Yes, ironic. Let's let's talk about his sexual appetites. What
Speaker 8: I wanted to describe is that he seems like sort
Speaker 8: of a even though he's this flamboyant, small, chubby guy,
Speaker 8: but he seems to be somewhat of an intimidating guy
Speaker 8: to a certain degree anyway, And at least part of
Speaker 8: his character is his sexual appetite. So tell us what
Speaker 8: how he can characterize his sexual appetites and how he
Speaker 8: goes about trying to satisfy that.
Speaker 1: Tell us about well, he always said, young young man
Speaker 1: with him you know, like his assistant was his boyfriend.
Speaker 1: When I worked there, what I saw Seth was his
Speaker 1: assistant was his boyfriend. Everyone knew that that was his boyfriend.
Speaker 1: I mean, after the fact, people have selective men, but
Speaker 1: that was his boyfriend. I mean, he was openly gay.
Speaker 1: Nobody you never saw him with a woman. He wasn't
Speaker 1: denying that he was gay, so he was always so
Speaker 1: His assistant I'm putting up air quotes was his boyfriend,
Speaker 1: and he you know, he had him. He put his
Speaker 1: boyfriends through college, He gave them, you know, cosmetic procedures,
Speaker 1: he bought them cars. It was all about money. And
Speaker 1: that's the very sad elements of this little tail here.
Speaker 1: It was all about money. If somebody was with him,
Speaker 1: you knew it was about money that JP was giving.
Speaker 1: It was never an equal relationship. You would never see
Speaker 1: someone like JP with somebody equally successful. You would never
Speaker 1: see that. He had to have all the control. And
Speaker 1: I think because of the fact that he was just
Speaker 1: so mean and so nasty, Who's going to be with
Speaker 1: someone like that unless it's about money. He wasn't a
Speaker 1: nice person. And there's been people with this tery part
Speaker 1: of it, when you know they were talking about him
Speaker 1: like he was the nicest thing since slice spread when
Speaker 1: it was announced that he died. When it was and
Speaker 1: I said, well, talking about that is JT that I knew.
Speaker 1: And that's even the news does that, well, they don't
Speaker 1: know who he is when they were reporting. When the
Speaker 1: news journalist is sitting in front of a teleprom through
Speaker 1: report and they don't know who it was, they don't
Speaker 1: know anything. They're saying. He was a philanthropist, he gave
Speaker 1: money to charitable things. Maybe he did. He needed tax
Speaker 1: right off, maybe he did. But he wasn't a nice
Speaker 1: person at the core, A kind warm, fuzzy type of person.
Speaker 1: He just wasn't. He was mean and he was nasty.
Speaker 1: That's why I left the way I did, Okay. And
Speaker 1: as far as his appetite, they were never too young
Speaker 1: or too thin or too nice looking in a man
Speaker 1: that was JP. Always with young men twenty years younger
Speaker 1: than him. That's what you saw. This was around He
Speaker 1: was in his early forties when he met Tim Boham,
Speaker 1: but he was that's always in Tim was what twenty
Speaker 1: two twenty three when they met, and he was forty two,
Speaker 1: So you always saw him with people around fifteen, twenty
Speaker 1: years younger than him. His men, they were never his
Speaker 1: equal always, you know, he was the one in control,
Speaker 1: the one in charge.
Speaker 8: Now, tell us about the encounter. Tell us about the
Speaker 8: meeting between these two, because they don't they have an
Speaker 8: earlier encounter. So tell us about their first meeting and
Speaker 8: what that consisted of.
Speaker 1: Tell us about Well, so Tim left left? Uh so Tim, okay,
Speaker 1: he is doing his porno, all right. So he's working
Speaker 1: in his porno, and then one day, on a dime,
Speaker 1: he just he was done. He looked in the mirror,
Speaker 1: he was called to the set, he had an early
Speaker 1: morning call. What Tim was doing was he was living
Speaker 1: a double life. He'd go out to La shoot his porno,
Speaker 1: and be here, be in La for a week or two,
Speaker 1: shoot his porno, and then be back in Denver for
Speaker 1: four weeks, go back to LA for two weeks, shoot
Speaker 1: his porno, be back in Denver for four weeks. That's
Speaker 1: how he was living. And nobody knew. They thought he
Speaker 1: was doing acting kids. No one knew he was porn of.
Speaker 1: Not in Denver. They didn't know. They did not, not
Speaker 1: the people that he knew in Denver, like his family,
Speaker 1: his friends, No one knew. He didn't tell anyone in
Speaker 1: Colorado that he was doing that, but I elsewhere he knew.
Speaker 1: He was a big He was a major adult film star.
Speaker 1: I mean he was on the cover of magazines all
Speaker 1: over the place. But his mother didn't watch porno. You know,
Speaker 1: his stepfather didn't watch porno. People that he knew his
Speaker 1: sister didn't watch porn. Unless you watch that stuff, how
Speaker 1: would you know who's to unless you're really looking at it,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't know. And also he used the name Marcus Allen.
Speaker 1: That was his professional name when he did his work,
Speaker 1: when he did his film work. And I said, why
Speaker 1: did you pick that name? Who gave you that name?
Speaker 1: He goes, you know, Marcus Allen. He did his thing
Speaker 1: in football, he made his money, he got out. I
Speaker 1: was helping that some of that would rub off on me.
Speaker 1: So I picked that name. That's how he came up
Speaker 1: with Marcus Allen. And so he just one day he
Speaker 1: was supposed to be had a call at eight o'clock,
Speaker 1: calls to be on the set in the valley to
Speaker 1: shoot one of his flicks. And he looked in the
Speaker 1: mirror he was shaving, and he said, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm done. I'm done. He didn't call Chee Chee, he
Speaker 1: didn't call the studio, he didn't call anyone. He packed
Speaker 1: some stuff, stuff in his Porsche that he had bought
Speaker 1: at this point. He did buy a Porsche, but he
Speaker 1: kept it in California. He didn't have it in Colorado.
Speaker 1: So in California. In Colorado, he drove a pickup truck.
Speaker 1: He went to the airport, got on a plane, went
Speaker 1: back to Denver, didn't tell anybody in California that he
Speaker 1: was done, never called anyone. That's how he left the
Speaker 1: porn industry. He was very impulsive the way he did things.
Speaker 1: When he thought he was gonna do it, he just
Speaker 1: did it. He didn't think. There was not a lot
Speaker 1: of thinking with him. He decided he was gonna do
Speaker 1: what he did it. There was no backing poors with him.
Speaker 1: He just thought, you know what, if my daughter or
Speaker 1: my mother find out that I'm doing this, I'd be mortified.
Speaker 1: I'd i'd be more respectful to work at McDonald's and
Speaker 1: to do this. He said he just couldn't stand it anymore,
Speaker 1: and he was done. And he never returned to it
Speaker 1: after that ever. Again. After that, he was done, so
Speaker 1: so then he's back in Denver. He's trying to take
Speaker 1: he's looking for work, definitely looking forward because he knows
Speaker 1: he's not gonna do the porn anymore. So he's back
Speaker 1: in Denver. Left California. Sold stuff, you know that what
Speaker 1: he needed to look with it in California. So now
Speaker 1: he's back in Denver full time and he's trying to
Speaker 1: raise his daughter and take care of her. And he's
Speaker 1: sitting in a cafe on Colfax Avenue, which is a
Speaker 1: major street in Denver, reading the one hands, looking for
Speaker 1: a job. And JP was in that place, which was
Speaker 1: very close to his office in Denver. He was sitting
Speaker 1: there having breakfasts and he saw him circling the heads
Speaker 1: and he recognized him. He recognized him from his films
Speaker 1: because he watched him his films. There's diverging reports about this,
Speaker 1: but this is And he came over to him and
Speaker 1: he goes, you're Marcus Allen and Tim said, nom, nah,
Speaker 1: my name is John, because you know, he always went
Speaker 1: by his middle name. He goes, my name's John, and
Speaker 1: he said, no, you're Marcus Allen. I know your work.
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of herts He goes okay, whatever
Speaker 1: my name is, John, I don't know what you're talking about, say.
Speaker 1: He denied it. He denied that it was him. He said,
Speaker 1: is there something I can help you with? He said
Speaker 1: to JP, I'm trying to do something here. You know,
Speaker 1: he was very dismissive, but he said, I have a
Speaker 1: you're looking. I see you circling ads here. I have
Speaker 1: a company. I own a company, a collection agency a
Speaker 1: few blocks from here. Here's my card. If you need work,
Speaker 1: give me a call. Another one giving him his card,
Speaker 1: giving him a call. He said, give me a call.
Speaker 1: I have a job for you. And he goes okay,
Speaker 1: And he called him after that because he desperately needed
Speaker 1: a job and he started working for him the same
Speaker 1: place I work, went up there and started working. This
Speaker 1: was years later though, this was like five years, four
Speaker 1: years later that he started working for him and he
Speaker 1: started doing the collections work for him. So that's how
Speaker 1: they met because it was over of the fact that
Speaker 1: he needed work.
Speaker 8: And so how did that work go? He was what
Speaker 8: was he didn't go?
Speaker 1: Well? You know, JP only gave him his card because
Speaker 1: because he was attracted him immediately and he was his
Speaker 1: fan and he recognized him as from his porn work.
Speaker 1: That's the only reason he had the people that did
Speaker 1: collections for him. That he had people that had been
Speaker 1: doing it for years, that were very experienced bill collectors
Speaker 1: sitting there and he never did it before. He just
Speaker 1: gave him his card because he was you know, he
Speaker 1: recognized him. Say he hated it. He said, he hated
Speaker 1: sitting there, and he actually did. That was the lie.
Speaker 1: He said. He knew that he's recognizing him. He said,
Speaker 1: I know it was me. I know well that what
Speaker 1: it was about. But I needed work, you know, and
Speaker 1: if he had a job, I'm going to go try it.
Speaker 1: And he said he's lasted like three days the first
Speaker 1: we worked there two different times. The first time he
Speaker 1: lasted three days. He said he hated sitting in the desk,
Speaker 1: just sitting and dialing and looking for people and hounding
Speaker 1: them for money. Wasn't his style, he said, hated it depressing.
Speaker 1: I said, which was worse, the porn or the bill collections?
Speaker 1: He said, the bill collections was worse than the porn.
Speaker 1: That people are so mean, you know, they hang up
Speaker 1: on you and they go, oh call here, I'm going
Speaker 1: to kill you, and all this stuff. He's at least
Speaker 1: in not doing He did the form, so he lasted
Speaker 1: three days and then you know that's and then he
Speaker 1: was just buying his time after that, you know, he
Speaker 1: was taking him out to dinner and giving him money
Speaker 1: to be with him. That's what That's what it evolved into,
Speaker 1: because that's what it was all about to begin with
Speaker 1: for JP, like it was with everybody that he ever
Speaker 1: was in his life before him, it was the same.
Speaker 8: In this brief period of time, in a short period
Speaker 8: of time, what does tim what does he what does
Speaker 8: he sort of determine about him in terms of this
Speaker 8: man's wealth, this man's character, what does he what does
Speaker 8: he see and what is he looking at and possibly
Speaker 8: looking for?
Speaker 1: But yeah, he said it was just you know, that's
Speaker 1: another thing he told people, you know, publicly after he
Speaker 1: was arrested, that it was that they were really good
Speaker 1: friends and that he enjoyed his comedy. But you know,
Speaker 1: I was buying that. I knew that I knew JP,
Speaker 1: and I just knew that that I said, you liked him?
Speaker 1: He was such a mean best What was it that
Speaker 1: you liked about him? I mean, gaye strait. He was
Speaker 1: not very attractive to look at. He was twenty years
Speaker 1: older than you. What could you possibly have seen that
Speaker 1: you liked about him? I said, I see that you're
Speaker 1: saying that you liked him and that he had a friend.
Speaker 1: And he said, you know, he couldn't lie to me.
Speaker 1: That's what I was saying earlier. He could not say
Speaker 1: that to me because I knew jay Z and I'm
Speaker 1: looking at him, you know, even this was after a
Speaker 1: few years after he was out of the porn because
Speaker 1: this is about two and a half years after the
Speaker 1: porn industry. That where we we're at in jail, you know,
Speaker 1: at that point in jail. So this was two and
Speaker 1: a half years away from the porn industry. But I'm
Speaker 1: looking at him, and I'm thinking, there's no way that's
Speaker 1: true that they would He cared for him because he
Speaker 1: was giving him money basically, and he was helping him
Speaker 1: pay his bills, and he was buying his friendship. He
Speaker 1: knew he was well, he'd been to his house, he's
Speaker 1: been his obviously, knew he had money. He's very wealthy
Speaker 1: by Coloraudzi any standards. He was a wealthy man, and
Speaker 1: he knew he was wealthy, and he figured he could
Speaker 1: get money from him and wouldn't have to go try
Speaker 1: and toil away, you know, for eight dollars an hour somewhere.
Speaker 1: And he gave him money constantly. He was giving him money.
Speaker 1: He would say, come spend the night, and I can't.
Speaker 1: I've got a kid to feed, you know that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. I can't spend the night with you. You
Speaker 1: got to give me money or I gotta go get
Speaker 1: a job. You know. It was like that. That's what
Speaker 1: it involved. And he was constantly giving him money to
Speaker 1: go to dinner with him, he had to give him
Speaker 1: money to go sit and watch TV with him, He
Speaker 1: had to give him money. Would not be with him
Speaker 1: unless money was involved. That's what the relationship was. It
Speaker 1: was about money.
Speaker 8: Now, both players in this tragic event know what each
Speaker 8: is expected of well, what is expected of each of
Speaker 8: them in this brief period of time. What exactly is
Speaker 8: JP's goal and what is Timothy's goal in terms of again,
Speaker 8: he's looking for money, but he understands what JP's ultimate
Speaker 8: goal is. And you said he got out of the
Speaker 8: porn industry because he not because he didn't get along
Speaker 8: with the other actors, but more so just his bothings.
Speaker 8: So tell us how much of an issue this is no.
Speaker 1: I don't know that he thought that far in the future, Howard,
Speaker 1: and I think while he was with him, he was
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what he was going to do
Speaker 1: because he had his child that he had his support,
Speaker 1: and he didn't want to sit there. And then, you know,
Speaker 1: while all of this was going on, while he was,
Speaker 1: you know, spending time with JP and being compensated for
Speaker 1: he met a girl. That's another element to this. He
Speaker 1: met a girl and then he went to the bar
Speaker 1: one night and he met a bartender that was tending bar,
Speaker 1: really really pretty girl. Her name was Christina, and he
Speaker 1: met her and they started dating. So then he has
Speaker 1: this girlfriend, and he still has JP that's looking to
Speaker 1: buy his affections from him. So at that point, when
Speaker 1: he met the girl and had started to have a
Speaker 1: relationship with her, he wanted nothing to do with Jada.
Speaker 1: I mean, he didn't want to keep you know, you
Speaker 1: could say we're having a sexual relationship. Obviously he and
Speaker 1: JP were. I mean he was a paid boyfriend. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know any other way to say a paid escort.
Speaker 1: Whatever you want, a paid companion, however you want to
Speaker 1: say it. Because he's not going to give them all
Speaker 1: that money and not expect him to have sex with him, right,
Speaker 1: I mean there was, there was. I mean he admitted
Speaker 1: to that that they were having a sexual There's no
Speaker 1: way he's going to give him money and not expect
Speaker 1: sexual in him. I mean he was his escort basically.
Speaker 1: But when he met Christina, and now Christina didn't know
Speaker 1: anything about the porn and eventually he admitted to him that,
Speaker 1: you know, was he couldn't deny it. I mean he
Speaker 1: saw those films. Actually one night they were sitting and
Speaker 1: watching TV, and he put one, Are you still going
Speaker 1: to deny that? That's you? He said it when they
Speaker 1: had his film in there. He said, now it's me.
Speaker 1: Now what so it's me? What do you want? It's me.
Speaker 1: I don't do that anymore. That's not who I am now.
Speaker 1: It was in the past. It was desperate. I needed money.
Speaker 1: I don't do that anymore, and don't bring it up again.
Speaker 1: That's what he said. JP's over. I didn't do that anymore,
Speaker 1: And he really didn't. Once he left, he never went back,
Speaker 1: not ever, and he was called to go back and
Speaker 1: he didn't. He just didn't. He decided he didn't want
Speaker 1: to do it. Anymore, and he didn't that he was.
Speaker 8: Over now, so is the sorry go ahead?
Speaker 1: So then he meets Christine. He's dating Christina, and Christina
Speaker 1: doesn't know anything about any of that stuff, doesn't know
Speaker 1: that he does. Man doesn't know. He was still having
Speaker 1: relations with JP because he needed money. He had rent,
Speaker 1: he had, you know, to take care of his daughter.
Speaker 1: He had a girlfriend, he was taking her out. He
Speaker 1: had money, So that's what he was doing to get money.
Speaker 1: He was seeing JP to get money, and he had
Speaker 1: this girlfriend who had no idea about any of it,
Speaker 1: didn't know that he was in the porn business, didn't
Speaker 1: know what he was doing. Men didn't know about any
Speaker 1: of that stuff, none of it. So that's why was
Speaker 1: going on there.
Speaker 8: So what did he want to do with Christine in
Speaker 8: terms of what was his goal in terms of gaining money?
Speaker 8: And then what was his next plan? What did he eat?
Speaker 1: No? I think that what happened. She got pregnant. The
Speaker 1: girlfriend got pregnant. So now he has another baby on
Speaker 1: the way. He's got the daughter who is now three
Speaker 1: or four at this point, and then he has the
Speaker 1: baby on the way. So now he's got these two kids.
Speaker 1: You know, he's going to have two to support. He
Speaker 1: just tried to. He was just trying to distance himself
Speaker 1: as much. He was trying to get money, to keep
Speaker 1: getting getting money, keep him one those But JP knew
Speaker 1: that he had a girlfriend, and he would say, listen,
Speaker 1: I can't spend as much time with you because I
Speaker 1: have a girlfriend now. And so what happened long term?
Speaker 1: I have no idea what he was planning. I don't
Speaker 1: think he knew. He just knew that minute. He had
Speaker 1: a mad money. He was trying to get work. He
Speaker 1: was sending out his resumes, he said. He said he
Speaker 1: was going to maybe go into the National Guard and
Speaker 1: do reserve duty so he get it checked. That's what
Speaker 1: he said. He was maybe plan looking at maybe doing
Speaker 1: the military as as a reservist so he could get
Speaker 1: a monthly checked. That way. He don't get very much.
Speaker 1: It's not enough to support a family, but that was
Speaker 1: one of the plans. He was trying to just get
Speaker 1: completely out of that kind of stuff, escorting, doing any
Speaker 1: seedy stuff and trying to, you know it, to live
Speaker 1: a straight life. But the terms that he used, he
Speaker 1: was trying. But then he was on the hook with JP.
Speaker 1: Though he JP wasn't going to just let him go
Speaker 1: that way, and he said, I have a girlfriend. Now
Speaker 1: I don't I can't see you. She doesn't know, you know.
Speaker 1: And that was not gonna work with JP. When he
Speaker 1: had his hooks in someone, he just didn't take no
Speaker 1: for an answer. He didn't in this case. He said,
Speaker 1: you gotta come over, because he was very attracted and
Speaker 1: very attached to him at this point.
Speaker 8: To a tim, okay, and tell us more about this meeting,
Speaker 8: he says, says, you have to come over, dude.
Speaker 1: You have to come over. You gotta come spend time
Speaker 1: with me, you know. And he would come over and
Speaker 1: he'd want him to spend the night, and he couldn't
Speaker 1: explain to her where was he going, what was he doing?
Speaker 1: He couldn't explain because she didn't know any of these things.
Speaker 1: You know. That was bad bed call. They just cut
Speaker 1: it off completely. But then he was threatening him. That's
Speaker 1: when the threat started. That's when the course of events started.
Speaker 1: He said, if you don't come and see me, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna tell her. I'm gonna tell. When they were getting
Speaker 1: along and everything was funny, he said, are you gonna
Speaker 1: tell her? You know? And he was making believe that
Speaker 1: he was going to just back off and let him
Speaker 1: live his life. And he said, you met a girl
Speaker 1: that's n I says, she know? Does she know about
Speaker 1: your past? Does she know who you are? And she said, no,
Speaker 1: I don't have to tell her those things. That's not
Speaker 1: who I am. Now that's in the past. I don't
Speaker 1: have to tell her any of those things. So he
Speaker 1: knew JP had that, but that he didn't that she
Speaker 1: didn't know, and she was not gonna know, not from him.
Speaker 1: So that's what he used as his leverage to start
Speaker 1: blackmailing him. You don't come over here, I'm gonna call Christina.
Speaker 1: You know what that he yet, I'm gonna send her
Speaker 1: one of your porno movies. That's what he was threatening
Speaker 1: him with. You can constantly straight he would he was
Speaker 1: laying in bed with her at three in the morning.
Speaker 1: They would be calling him on the phone. Who is that?
Speaker 1: Who's calling? I don't know, cranme, Pungle, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't know. He was constantly had to make up
Speaker 1: stories for who's calling him. That was going on constantly
Speaker 1: with him blackmailing.
Speaker 8: Now by this time as well, Timothy knows the lay
Speaker 8: of the land in terms of JP's home, and so
Speaker 8: tell us about, say, the day proceeding or the day
Speaker 8: of tell us about the events leading up to this
Speaker 8: incredible crime.
Speaker 1: Well, there was. There's there's another thing too with this,
Speaker 1: there's some different differing accounts of what happened. The story
Speaker 1: that's out there that there was a safe and JP's
Speaker 1: has which there was, There was a safe there, and
Speaker 1: the plan was Tim was just gonna go in there,
Speaker 1: rob his house, rob JP's house, get money, take Christina
Speaker 1: and go away somewhere. Go take Christina and his daughter
Speaker 1: and just leave and go somewhere else, to some other city.
Speaker 1: That's what he says he was gonna do. I don't
Speaker 1: believe that that's what he ever planned to do. That's
Speaker 1: what he said to the police. That's what he told
Speaker 1: his mother. That's what he said to on the witness stand.
Speaker 1: That's what he said. He was well on the witness stand.
Speaker 1: It was completely different. I mean during the trial. I
Speaker 1: mean initially he said that, but then he changed his story.
Speaker 1: That's what he told public. That was the public story,
Speaker 1: the public version of events that he gave that he
Speaker 1: was going to go in get him to open the
Speaker 1: safe because he didn't have the combination to the safe,
Speaker 1: rob him and leave. That's what he said he was
Speaker 1: going to do. That's not true. That is absolutely not true.
Speaker 1: It's all lies. Then I believe that he was going
Speaker 1: to go over there and just kill him, because first
Speaker 1: of all, I think, you know, if he would have
Speaker 1: done anything like charge to rob me, he would have
Speaker 1: immediately called the police. If he was left alive. It
Speaker 1: wasn't gonna and he knew who he was. He wasn't
Speaker 1: going to just let him rob him and give him money, right,
Speaker 1: that's the first thing. Second thing, if he got him
Speaker 1: pissed off very badly, he would have told Christina. And
Speaker 1: he definitely did not want Christina or his family, his mother,
Speaker 1: or anybody to know about his past. He didn't want
Speaker 1: anyone to know those things. No one knew, and he
Speaker 1: knew that he would tell, and he would have probably
Speaker 1: told if he had the chance, he would have told them.
Speaker 1: You know, he knew that he would tell, and he
Speaker 1: was very afraid of that. So he on the day
Speaker 1: of it was November two thousand and six when this happened,
Speaker 1: he went. He said he was going to just go
Speaker 1: there and rob the safe and that would be it. Okay,
Speaker 1: So what you want to know what happened now or.
Speaker 8: Yes, I want what I also what I also wanted
Speaker 8: to know was yeah, no, go ahead, proceed, tell us
Speaker 8: about what what actually happens.
Speaker 1: Well, he actually wanted to try to get him to stop,
Speaker 1: you know, blackmailing him. And you know why even asked him,
Speaker 1: why didn't you go to the police say that he
Speaker 1: was blackmailing Because you're not allowed to blackmail someone. That's
Speaker 1: a felony. When you're blackmailing someone, it doesn't matter who
Speaker 1: it is what it is not allowed to legally blackmail someone.
Speaker 1: You do this or I'm gonna do this, that's blackmail. Okay,
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to do that's crime. He said. I
Speaker 1: thought about that. I actually did think about that, But
Speaker 1: then I would have had to say what he's blackmailing
Speaker 1: me over? So who they gonna take? Who is? The
Speaker 1: police can decide with the Porner store. He's blackmailing me
Speaker 1: because I'm a porn star versus the nice, overall good guy,
Speaker 1: philanthropic JP Calso, the well respected business Denver business. I
Speaker 1: said he had a criminal record, didn't He said he
Speaker 1: didn't know. Tim told me that he didn't know that
Speaker 1: JP had a criminal record because he JP didn't tell
Speaker 1: that's of evil. He didn't say, Hi, my name is JAP.
Speaker 1: I have a criminal record. He owned a collection HC.
Speaker 1: He then never dawned on him that he had a
Speaker 1: criminal record. I think that's another issue. If he would
Speaker 1: have known that, maybe he would have went to the
Speaker 1: police he had a criminal record. Tim didn't. The other
Speaker 1: one did it. He was blackmailing him, so, but.
Speaker 8: He also wouldn't have. He wouldn't have also wanted his
Speaker 8: wife to find out his new girlfriend, Christine. He didn't
Speaker 8: want her to find out, and that would have been
Speaker 8: another way for her to find out too. He's trying
Speaker 8: to silence this guy in a couple fronts, stop stop
Speaker 8: what he's doing, and also silence him from saying anything
Speaker 8: to anyone.
Speaker 1: As well, exactly. And he wanted he needed money, so
Speaker 1: oh he needed money. Also he also desperately needed money.
Speaker 8: So we won't give too much away here in terms
Speaker 8: of the trial, because it's like many cases, it's you
Speaker 8: think this is just going to be maybe possibly a
Speaker 8: plea agreement, or they're going to spare the family of
Speaker 8: the victims the cost and the burden and the and
Speaker 8: yet they go to trial and he takes the stand,
Speaker 8: which again is very unusual. Just tell us about the
Speaker 8: crime scene itself, and before we do that, what type
Speaker 8: of money were we talking about. He's thinking that maybe
Speaker 8: in that safe.
Speaker 1: He thought there were you know, like at least thousands
Speaker 1: of maybe at least one hundred thousand dollars in cash
Speaker 1: in the say that's what he thought was in there.
Speaker 1: Because also you asked me earlier and then whether Tim
Speaker 1: had drug problems. He did, but JP did. JP had
Speaker 1: a very bad cocaine problem. He had a lot of
Speaker 1: drug problems. And he always had money in that safe
Speaker 1: because of that, because he bought drugs all the time.
Speaker 1: So there was a lot of money in the safe.
Speaker 1: He was right about that. I mean he said he
Speaker 1: saw him opening all the time and he knew there
Speaker 1: was money in there. Right, he was at his house
Speaker 1: before many times, so he knew there was money there.
Speaker 8: Now on the on the day of the murder itself,
Speaker 8: Brent Cox's Kelso's housekeeper. He isn't living in, but he
Speaker 8: has a key and he comes to work and discovers
Speaker 8: what tell us about the what is discovered at Kelso's home.
Speaker 1: He's, oh, the housekeeper that found the body, is that
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. Yeah, the housekeeper, Brent Cox was
Speaker 1: also gay, see and he had a male housekeeper. He
Speaker 1: just didn't like women. This man, he really did. So
Speaker 1: Brad Cox came to the house on Monday. He was scheduled.
Speaker 1: He cleaned the house every day. Jap would go to work.
Speaker 1: He had keys to the house. He had keys to
Speaker 1: the house. He had keys to the house and Jay
Speaker 1: so he was supposed to be at work. When Brent
Speaker 1: Cox got to the house, he saw that the car
Speaker 1: was in the driveway, which was rare. He would go
Speaker 1: and clean the house when JP was at work. That
Speaker 1: was the schedule. So he saw the car in the
Speaker 1: driveway and he thought, that's weird. Maybe he overslept. And
Speaker 1: then he saw there was a you know, no plates
Speaker 1: in the sink. It was a Monday morning. That would
Speaker 1: have been plates in the thing because he didn't clean
Speaker 1: over the weekend. He saw no plates in the sink.
Speaker 1: He saw that. It just looked weird to him. But
Speaker 1: the dogs were outside, and you know, it was cold.
Speaker 1: It was November. The dogs were never outside in November,
Speaker 1: the three little dogs that were never outside. So when
Speaker 1: he went up, he went up to look. He started
Speaker 1: calling his name because he knew the car was outside.
Speaker 1: He knew he had to be home because the car
Speaker 1: was in the driveway. So he started calling him JP J.
Speaker 1: If he didn't hear anything, he led the dogs and
Speaker 1: he went upstairs. He looked for him and he discovered
Speaker 1: his body in the bathtub. He saw him in the booth.
Speaker 1: He looked at him. He screamed, he was you know,
Speaker 1: he looked at me. He clearly could see he was dead.
Speaker 1: There was blood everywhere, and he ran outside and he
Speaker 1: called the police from outside of the house.
Speaker 8: And well, then tell us what the police response was
Speaker 8: in terms of tell us what happens next with police.
Speaker 1: Well, the police arrived and they, you know, questioned him
Speaker 1: and the JP was found nude in the bathtub with water.
Speaker 1: You know, he was found naked and he weighed over
Speaker 1: three hundred pounds. He found They found him and he
Speaker 1: had a pillow under his chin, naked, blood everywhere in
Speaker 1: the war, you know, the water was bloody, and that's
Speaker 1: how he was found. So the police came, questioned him,
Speaker 1: called the CSI team and went through. Do you want
Speaker 1: to know how they discovered that it was Tim or
Speaker 1: what do we that it was Tim that did I
Speaker 1: mean they went through phone records, so they figured out
Speaker 1: that it was Tim through the phone records to see
Speaker 1: who he called last that initially, and there was no
Speaker 1: videotape surveillance. He had video cameras on the house and
Speaker 1: he was on videotape entering the house. Last person that
Speaker 1: entered the house before the housekeeper.
Speaker 8: It was Tim, didn't they initially believe that they're because
Speaker 8: of the size of the man and how he had
Speaker 8: to be put in the bath so that they thought
Speaker 8: initially that there was more than one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they thought it had to be more than one
Speaker 1: per They took five cops, five different police officers to
Speaker 1: get his body out of the top after they drained
Speaker 1: the water. Took five of them to get him out,
Speaker 1: so they thought he had more than one person to
Speaker 1: get him in there. And they knew from the forensics
Speaker 1: in the bedroom, it was in the master bedroom that
Speaker 1: he was killed, but they knew from the forensics that
Speaker 1: he was not shot. He was shot, that's how he
Speaker 1: was killed, but they knew it wasn't he was not
Speaker 1: shot in the bathtub. They knew that his body was
Speaker 1: moved into the bathtub after he was shot, so they
Speaker 1: knew whoever did. They figured that's why they thought it
Speaker 1: had to be more than one person to get him in.
Speaker 1: You know, rigor mortis sets in your heavy when you
Speaker 1: you know, the body's very heavy. It's a lot heavier
Speaker 1: than when it's dead. So they thought it was more
Speaker 1: than one person, for sure. They thought that at first.
Speaker 1: They thought it was a very right when they saw
Speaker 1: it and they saw the conditions of the house and
Speaker 1: the forensics, they thought they called it a burglary at first.
Speaker 1: That's what they reported when they started reporting it on
Speaker 1: the news, they said that he was dead and that
Speaker 1: it was probably a burglary gone bad. That's what they
Speaker 1: That's how they reported it.
Speaker 8: So tell us just we won't tell about everything because
Speaker 8: obviously he well you can tell us about his escape
Speaker 8: or or where his his flight was. Also tell us
Speaker 8: how in short order, within a few days, they they
Speaker 8: have the evidence to be able to.
Speaker 1: Get a warrant. They got a warrant for him because
Speaker 1: first of all, they go through the phone records to
Speaker 1: see who he called less so they know who the
Speaker 1: last person that they called it was. And then he
Speaker 1: had video surveillance in his house, in the inside and
Speaker 1: the outside, both and he was on tape, so they
Speaker 1: knew it was him. They knew it was him that
Speaker 1: was in that he was the last person in the
Speaker 1: house before the housekeeper. They knew it was him. They
Speaker 1: identified him through the video. They knew it was him.
Speaker 1: They were able to tell through the video that it
Speaker 1: was him, matched out with the phone records they put
Speaker 1: to into the you know, and they were able to
Speaker 1: That's how they got the warrant, right.
Speaker 8: And he and he has an idea to take off
Speaker 8: south of the border.
Speaker 1: And right after that he, you know, he got on
Speaker 1: a plane. He was going to go back to La
Speaker 1: because he had a motorcycle there. He still had a
Speaker 1: car there in La. He was gonna go to La.
Speaker 1: But that made a change. The plane made a change,
Speaker 1: and at the last minute he got off in Arizona
Speaker 1: and went to the border in Arizona instead of going
Speaker 1: back on because he thought for sure there's a warrant.
Speaker 1: He didn't know for sure, but he said, probably they
Speaker 1: know already that it's me. There's gonna be a warrant.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be too hard to get back on to
Speaker 1: connect to another plane. He could get it at Lax
Speaker 1: when he goes through. He could get stopped, so he
Speaker 1: thought it was better to stay on the ground not
Speaker 1: get back on a plane at that point, So he
Speaker 1: got in a cab and went to Lukeville, Arizona, where
Speaker 1: the border is into Mexico. Over there, he took a
Speaker 1: cab from the airport. He claims also when he got
Speaker 1: the safe, has that there was no money in it.
Speaker 1: That's what he told the police, that he opened the
Speaker 1: safe for no reason. But the cab right alone from
Speaker 1: the airport to the border was four hundred dollars from
Speaker 1: in Arizona to get to the border of Mexico. So
Speaker 1: he claims that there was no money in this at
Speaker 1: which I personally know from my own knowledge that that's
Speaker 1: not true.
Speaker 8: But you know, okay, yeah, and he gets he'd buy
Speaker 8: some tools as well.
Speaker 1: Not only that he went to Mexico, he actually went
Speaker 1: into Mexico after that, you know that, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: he was in Mexico for a while and then, you know,
Speaker 1: thought about what what am I going to do here?
Speaker 1: You know, do I want to go to a Mexican jail.
Speaker 1: He thought about that too, because the Mexican Mexico doesn't
Speaker 1: have the death penalty, Okay, So in order to actually
Speaker 1: duke someone back. A lot of times they have to
Speaker 1: agree to not seek to death. I don't think once
Speaker 1: you're in Mexico. But then, you know, the other issue
Speaker 1: is do I want to be in a Mexican jail
Speaker 1: or a Mexican prison? You know? There way he was
Speaker 1: thinking about it. I mean, you know, he had a
Speaker 1: lot of money on him. He could have lasted for
Speaker 1: a while in Mexico because he was not in like
Speaker 1: he was in a little small little town in Mexico.
Speaker 1: It was very cheap to be there, so he could
Speaker 1: have lasted. But that's you know, he didn't. That's not
Speaker 1: what he elected to do. He just felt it was
Speaker 1: very you know, do you want me to say what
Speaker 1: happens here or not? I don't know, because he voluntarily
Speaker 1: turned it. I mean he went back into Arizona and
Speaker 1: went over to the border patrol agents. Actually what he
Speaker 1: did was, when he was at the border, he went
Speaker 1: and got on the internet somewhere over there, like in
Speaker 1: a cafe or something, and he saw there was a
Speaker 1: warrant for him, and so then he went over to
Speaker 1: the border agent and he goes, I want to turn
Speaker 1: myself in because I believe there's a warrant for me
Speaker 1: out of Denver. That was an Arizona and Lukeville, Arizona
Speaker 1: on the other side of the border. And they go,
Speaker 1: where is the warrant from and he said Denver And
Speaker 1: they said what's it for? And he said murder. And
Speaker 1: they went and they looked and they just threw the
Speaker 1: guns up and arrested him right there on the spot.
Speaker 1: But he turned himself in at that point, after he
Speaker 1: got on the internet knew there was a warrant, he
Speaker 1: turned himself in.
Speaker 8: Yeah, now we won't We won't go into the rest
Speaker 8: of it. We would have to have another hour to
Speaker 8: really explain the rest of this. And for me, the
Speaker 8: true crime readers, they think, well, it's a trial, this
Speaker 8: should be a slam dunk, and often it isn't. And
Speaker 8: so we won't give away all the twists and turns
Speaker 8: you're in. And of course you get to interview Timothy,
Speaker 8: and like you say, he's a notorious half truth teller,
Speaker 8: a lot of lies.
Speaker 1: And pathological liar. He is. I mean, he eventually, you know,
Speaker 1: opened up to me, but it took a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of doing and getting to know his family
Speaker 1: and gaining their trust. I actually did a television show
Speaker 1: with his mother to try and spend it a little
Speaker 1: bit different and talk about, you know, the jp that
Speaker 1: you know, it's not all what they're saying, and he's
Speaker 1: and I already was spending a lot of time with
Speaker 1: him already at gym. I just thought I would discuss
Speaker 1: the case a little because they were spending it long way.
Speaker 1: I didn't really think that was right to do that.
Speaker 1: It wasn't you know, this was more than just writing crime.
Speaker 1: It was ironic because in this case I knew the victim,
Speaker 1: you know, and I felt I was it was the best,
Speaker 1: the right thing to do to get on there and say,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not always what what things appear to be.
Speaker 1: Basically is what I said. You know, he does. No
Speaker 1: one deserves to die. I say that in the book.
Speaker 1: No one doesn't deserves it, no matter what they do.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't like someone, you stay away from them,
Speaker 1: like I did. I never had any dealings with him
Speaker 1: after I left. You know, I didn't like him. I
Speaker 1: stayed away from him. But you know, let's say the truth.
Speaker 1: Let's not distort what the truth was. I really believe
Speaker 1: that it's very important, and that's when I write I
Speaker 1: get a lot of heat for that sometimes because I'm
Speaker 1: not a revisionist. I don't change what happens just because
Speaker 1: someone died tragically. I don't think that's right to do that.
Speaker 1: You know, I did it with my last one too.
Speaker 1: I had a gut took a lot of heat for
Speaker 1: that because my last one was about Scott Peterson, you know,
Speaker 1: and the victim there always lazy Peters and she's not perfect.
Speaker 1: No one's perfect, none of us are right. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of these stories I view them as cautionary tales.
Speaker 1: A lot of them are let's look at maybe in
Speaker 1: the next case, maybe if somebody did something a little
Speaker 1: different and want to play it out that way. That's
Speaker 1: my thing. That's the way I view a lot of
Speaker 1: these cases.
Speaker 8: Well, obviously you have to report on the obvious interaction
Speaker 8: between these people because not to say innocence or guilt
Speaker 8: or partly guilty behavior by a victim, but it's just
Speaker 8: a matter of fact that these situations arise and these
Speaker 8: characters collide, and we have this incredible murder and incredible
Speaker 8: court case. And like I said, I won't want to
Speaker 8: give it away because we have, you know, the mother
Speaker 8: and the sister, and it's incredible who shows up at
Speaker 8: the trial and who's important that trial, and then we
Speaker 8: have an appearance by the killer himself, which is very
Speaker 8: very unusual.
Speaker 1: So that's very rare. That's very rare. But when you're
Speaker 1: making the defense that he was he had no choice,
Speaker 1: I mean legally, and they say that, you know, you never,
Speaker 1: no one ever has to take the stand in any state,
Speaker 1: that's just that's the law. But certain defense it's kind
Speaker 1: of necessary because it's he just sits there and there's
Speaker 1: nothing left, there's nothing to go on if you don't
Speaker 1: explain your version in certain instances. And so he did
Speaker 1: take the stand, and it's very very rare. You're right,
Speaker 1: it's less than three percent of these kinds of cases,
Speaker 1: these murder cases, less than three percent where the defendant
Speaker 1: takes the stand in these cases, So ninety seven percent
Speaker 1: of the time they don't do it.
Speaker 8: And the other thing is to not all defense attorneys
Speaker 8: are prepared to. We'll say, take a fanciful tale from
Speaker 8: a defendant or something that would seem to be proven
Speaker 8: in the end to be you know, totally false anyway,
Speaker 8: and take that and trot that all the way in
Speaker 8: a trial.
Speaker 1: That's a rarity, and I know that's what's really crazy
Speaker 1: in this particular case. It's like people are going to
Speaker 1: read it and think, oh my gosh, it's just like
Speaker 1: didn't happen, but it's a matter of record it happened.
Speaker 1: That's very bizarre elements this case.
Speaker 8: Also absolutely yes, I want to we wont want to
Speaker 8: give any more away, but I want to say that
Speaker 8: this is a tale that as soon as you think
Speaker 8: you know what's going to go on, then there's something
Speaker 8: else that pops up and definitely absolutely surprises you. So
Speaker 8: very very interesting story tendant for mature audiences. I want
Speaker 8: to thank you very much Donna for coming on and
Speaker 8: talking about this book and for those that might want
Speaker 8: to connect with you or do you have a website?
Speaker 8: Do you do Facebook?
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I have a fan daily Dotti Infall. You
Speaker 1: can see a lot of my articles. I do a
Speaker 1: lot of exclusive interviews with you know, criminals. I write
Speaker 1: about pop cultural So, but connect with me if you
Speaker 1: have a story you want me to look at on
Speaker 1: Twitter ms ms Donna Thomas.
Speaker 8: Best way to find me right, And you also have
Speaker 8: a book about Scott Peterson and you're working side.
Speaker 1: That was my last book. Yeah, I'm sorry, I like you.
Speaker 1: It's a great, great book, it's a great read. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I like to you the Confession Scott Peterson. The only
Speaker 1: you ought to that wrote a book about him, that
Speaker 1: actually interviewed him at San Quentin. I'm the only one.
Speaker 8: Well, then it sounds like I'm going to have to
Speaker 8: invite you back on to talk about that because we
Speaker 8: have not covered that case, and that's another one in
Speaker 8: the Annals of true crime history in American history.
Speaker 1: Basically, it's a fascinating read. It's a fascinating case, it
Speaker 1: really is. I spent a lot of time with Scott
Speaker 1: so on death Row at San Quentin.
Speaker 8: Yeah, well, we'll have to have you on and talk
Speaker 8: about that.
Speaker 1: And thank you, thank you, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: having me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much, Donna, and I hope to talk
Speaker 8: to you again soon. You have a great evening, and thank.
Speaker 1: You for this interview you too, Thank you, Bob Bla.
Speaker 8: Good night.