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Speaker 1: Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is

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not intended for all audiences.

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Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 3: Well, last thirty years, I'm one violent, I'm n violent.

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You know.

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Speaker 1: This is season twelve, episode two eighty three of a

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little show we like to do here called Sword and Scale,

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the show that reveals that the worst monsters are real.

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Very jet lagged after my recent trip to Belarus, so

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you might hear me pause in all the wrong places.

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Flew in Via, Lithuania for a quick vaca that's near

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led Via. By the way, if you're a big geography

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buff anyway, we better get served on the story. The

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house on Byron Avenue was typical of the quiet North

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Fort Myers neighborhood in Florida. A simple, weather worn home

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of only about five hundred square feet, this quiet residential

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home is where Bonnie Nicely had been living with her

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boyfriend Joseph Zeiler since nineteen ninety. Their twenty five year

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old son had also lived on the property. On the

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night of August twenty sixth, twenty sixteen, the household erupted

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into an argument. Bonnie was used to the strained relationship

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between Joseph and their son. Arguments between them had escalated recently,

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and she could hear them shouting at each other in

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the hallway. They had all three been drinking, but Bonnie

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was plenty sober enough to know where this yelling was headed.

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It was getting out of control. Bonnie nicely gave her

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account of the night's events in her recorded statement, which

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was taken at three point thirty three am on August

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twenty seventh, twenty sixteen. She said her twenty five year

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old son and his girlfriend spent time drinking at a

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local pool hall, and after they got home, Joseph and

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their son began arguing. According to Bonnie, the two men,

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both drunk, started swinging and grabbing at each other. Bonnie's

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account was that Joseph followed their son to the bedroom,

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where he pressed his left forearm against his son's neck,

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pinning him down on the bed while repeatedly striking him

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in the face with his right hand. Their son fought back,

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biting Joseph on the left forearm and right fingers to

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break free, while Bonnie, desperate to stop the assault, scratched

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Joseph's face as she tried to pull him away. When

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their son managed to get loose, Joseph retreated to his bedroom,

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seemingly ending the altercation. Joseph's version was slightly different. It

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was a more complete version that started at the beginning,

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long before the night of the attack.

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Speaker 3: Then with my girl twenty six years. I love her,

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you know, I got her pregnant and throm my best

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with them, really tried to do my bust with them,

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just to NonStop is NonStop. I mean, it's all the time.

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And I understand I'm guilty too. I drink, but I

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don't drink every day. And it's just gotten too much. Man.

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He's mean, he's arrogant, he's belligerent, he's he you know,

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it's a constant. The house is just constantly full of struss.

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It's constant strust.

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Speaker 1: Their son and his girlfriend both worked, so the income

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was appreciated, but the bickering wasn't.

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Speaker 3: Well. This is his very first girlfriend. It's high school

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and she's forty five, she's a lot older. I was

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going to work on what I'm trying to tell him,

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you know, right from wrong, and how you're supposed to

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treat your parents, you know. But he be rights her.

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He's mean nor and he don't hit her, but he

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is very verbally abusive to her.

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Speaker 1: Mostly, according to Joseph, his son verbally targeted his much

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older girlfriend, but he treated his parents even worse when

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he drank. And apparently this man drank a whole lot.

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Speaker 3: After about three or four, he starts getting belligerent, you know,

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and I mean about six, and he starts getting derating

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and fully like, you know, and I'm I'm just sick

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of it, you know, I'm scared of it. The last

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time he beat me up really well, he lot me

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up real good. And you know that it was a

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couple of years ago. And you know what happened was

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is I never really kind of raised him with any

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physical discipline, you know, like old school way my father

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raised me. You don't talk back to your father, you

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don't disrespect your families, or you get smacked. And of

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course you can't do that no more, you know. And

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and it's just been building forever. The last time he

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beat the shit out of me, you know, and I

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cut my hands at my side.

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Speaker 1: So fast forward to that night. They all went to

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a pool hall slash bar, but Joseph says he in

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a common law wife left after a couple of drinks,

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whereas his son stayed there with friends. Joseph says he

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even warned the friends that his son already had six

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beers in him and they better not let him drink

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much more than that. A couple of hours later, though,

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his son called for a ride because you know, he

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was too drunk to drive.

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Speaker 3: I said something a pistol off his mood. Chance instantly

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at the bar, he started acting dark and you know,

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bledge run. So he got home. Hisamar asked him, please,

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I gotta go to work tomorrow. Please, if you guys,

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please do not fight tonight. Don't cause any trouble tonight.

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I need to get some sleeps. They hadn't had no sleep,

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so we went in our vasom late the hun Everything

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was smooth, and they started fighting, you know, and I

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just had enough. I hit him.

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Speaker 1: Bonnie's version is that their son bit Joseph, who then

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went to the bathroom and came out holding a pellet gun.

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Bonnie couldn't remember seeing him pumped the weapon, but she

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distinctly heard the sound of it firing as he raised

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it towards their son, who was now standing in the hallway.

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Joseph aimed, the gun fired and hit his son on

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the chest. Stun their son, Zach clutched his chest because

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he knew he was wounded. Without a word, He left

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the house with his girlfriend and drove to Lee Memorial

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Hospital for treatment, where he was immediately taken into surgery

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and admitted to the intensive care unit in critical condition.

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But that's not exactly how Joseph says it went down.

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Speaker 3: It was quick, you know, to the point while we

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were at it, he started biting me.

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Speaker 4: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: I mean he's started on on me. He bit me

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here on the finger first and put me on the arm.

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Then he tried to bite me and my writ my

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bent and I you know, I had it, you know,

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a pustim in the face a couple of times got

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off and I thought it was done. Else thought it

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was done. But he is one of them, heavile that

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won't he don't never let nothing go. I was done,

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it was done, and I had enough, you know, and

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I figured his time to give him the to ask

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woman he needed. I'm sorry, you know, that's the way

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my daddy did me. And I finally had enough. Man,

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I'm fifty four years old, and I figured out I

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don't whoop his ass. Now he's gonna walk all over

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me the rest of my life. So I did. I

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whipped his ass. I gave him a good ass meat

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and he deserved it, he needed it. And then I

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walked away. I got up, went my room, I closed

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the door.

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Speaker 1: Next, he says, Zach came back for more when he

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barreled his way past his mom and girlfriend, knocking them

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over on his way to attack Joseph again. That's when

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he reached for the pellet gun.

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Speaker 3: He says.

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Speaker 1: He attempted to shoot his son in the shoulder, but

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missed and hit him in the chest. A pellet gun,

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if you don't already know, is similar to a babe gun.

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I have one in the glove compartment of my cyber truck,

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which I keep there in case crazy is trying to

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mess with it. It operates with the use of air

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pressure that's built up by a pumping action. It could

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be in the form of a pistol or rifle. In

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this case, it was a rifle, and it operates with

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the use of air pressure via a CO two cartridge

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or by pumping it. In this case, it was a

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rifle style pellet gun with pump action. The more you pump,

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the stronger the force of the pellet, and these weapons

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are marked as non lethal, but in some cases they

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can kill you. In fact, they're used for killing rodents

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and other vermin on rural properties, but they can be very,

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very harmful when you point them at someone, and you

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should never do that unless you intend to hurt them

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and possibly kill them. Joseph was using the Silver Strike,

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a well known multi pump air rifle made by Sharon

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and Products, Inc. It's been popular since the mid twentieth

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century and can shoot with enough force to damage small targets.

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In this case, it hit at close range next to

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Zack's heart wave.

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Speaker 3: But I didn't realize that I did. I'd actually heard him,

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I said, I mean, it's a public gun. For christ

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I can't get away from them. The only way I

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can get away from the noise in that house is

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to go out in that room turn the erican, so

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I can't hear nothing. And that's why theficer was asking me.

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I didn't hear any sirens. I didn't know there's try

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him out of there. I actually just I didn't even think.

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I certainly didn't even think I hit him with a

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public on. It doesn't what I was trying to scare them.

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Speaker 1: When officers from the Lee County Sheriff's Office arrived, they

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found the residence bloodstained with droplets in the hallway and

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across both bedrooms. After a search of the property, deputies

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found Joseph hiding in a standalone shed outside the main house.

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He was lying on a cot with a pellet gun

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and a tin can of pellets beside him. At first,

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the cops thought he was deliberately hiding from them and

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refusing to answer their shouts at the door of the house,

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but he wasn't even in the house, and instead he

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had run from his own son and was hiding from him,

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not the police. He maintained that Bonnie had also struck

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him during the fight, with their son, climbing on top

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of his back and scratching and hitting him in an

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attempt to break the two of them up. According to Joseph,

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he listens to his common law wife and when she

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told him to stop, he did. It was their son

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who pursued him.

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Speaker 3: I mean I walked away. They told me to stop,

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and I stopped. My girl tells me to stop, I stopped.

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Speaker 1: Regardless of whose story you found more truthful, the fact

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stood on its own that Joseph had discharged a pellet

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gun and aimed it at his own son injuring him.

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What were the police going to do? Just walk away

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and let them sort it out for themselves. I mean

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they can't. So they found probable cause to charge Joseph

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Zeiler with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon. He was

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formally arrested on August twenty eighth, twenty sixteen, and booked

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into the Lee County Jail without incident. They took him

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through all the usual procedures, fingerprinting, mugshot, cheek swabbing, all

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the fun stuff. He wasn't used to being behind bars.

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For a man who'd lived quietly for so many years,

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that jail was a cold, unforgiving place with a lot

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of noise. Noise was exactly the thing he tried to avoid,

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and also the reason he spent a lot of time

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in his man cave shed, because his son and girlfriend

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were always fighting and he wanted some peace and quiet. Now,

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noise wasn't really his concern. As he sat in that

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stark concrete cell. He had no way of that detectives

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were uncovering something far beyond a family argument, something that

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had been buried in silence waiting to be found. There

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were files, details, and unanswered questions that resurfaced in ways

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no one had expected. As the investigation unfolded, what detectives

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found would reach beyond Joseph, bringing in people who thought

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the past was long since buried for now, though he

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sat quietly unaware of the pieces that were about to

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fall into place. In North Fort Myers, Florida, Joseph Zeiler

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had led a quiet life for years after an incident

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in nineteen ninety eight left him with head trauma. A

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legal settlement allowed him to afford a modest home where

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he lived with his longtime partner, Bonnie Nicely. The two

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met back in May of nineteen ninety and within a month,

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Joseph had moved in with her. Following the accident, Bonnie

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became both his caregiver and power of attorney, managing his

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affairs as he struggled with memory issues. Though his driver's

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license was valid, he'd been advised not to drive. Bonnie

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and Joseph weren't the only ones living in the home,

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though their twenty five year old son, Zach, and his

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much older girlfriend also made a home there. In that

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five hundred square foot house. According to Joseph, their son

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was a heavy drinker who turned belligerent during binges. On

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August night in twenty sixteen, a family argument turned violent.

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What began as a tense evening at a local bar

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ended with Joseph's son in the hospital and Joseph behind bars,

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charged with aggravated battery. To detectives, it seemed like a

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straightforward case of domestic violence, a regrettable but isolated incident.

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But as Joseph sat in his cell, the investigation took

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an unexpected turn. A routine DNA collection linked him to

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something far more sinister, forcing open the door to a

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long cold case that no one, lease of all Joseph

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Zeiler saw coming. For years, this case had haunted investigators

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and left two families broken and grieving, and now new

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questions were being presented. Detectives had to ask who was

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Joseph Zeiler really and what secrets had he managed to

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hide for so long. It was nineteen ninety in Lee County, Florida.

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Jan Cornell was a single mom of an eleven year

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old daughter named Robin, and she recently invited her friend

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Lisa's Story to move in and become her roommate. Robin

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had asked her mother if she could have a sleepover

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with a friend that night, but Jane told her no

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because she hadn't cleaned her room. Jan told Robin and

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Lisa that she was going out for the night to

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watch a football game at a friend's place. As she

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walked out the door. Hours later, Jan had fallen asleep

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on her friend's couch. Having lost track of time, she

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rushed home. She only had minutes to get to her

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job as a nurse at Cape Coral Hospital. When she

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got home, it was around four am. A worldview changed forever.

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Both her roommate and her daughter were dead. Jane Cornell

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had not planned to be out this late. She'd spent

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the previous day helping her new roommate, Lisa, settle into

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her new apartment, but around ten forty five pm, Jane

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decided to head to her boyfriend's house to watch the

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basketball playoffs. She told Lisa and her eleven year old daughter, Robin,

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that she'd be home soon, but Jane fell asleep and

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didn't wake up until four am, when she realized she

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needed to get home and get ready for her morning

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shift at the hospital. We all hope that emergency operators

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are trying to do their best in these situations, but

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ordering someone to calm down when they've walked in on

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this kind of unexpected horror is just not going to work.

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As she approached the front door, Jan realized something was off.

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The doorknob, locked that she usually avoided because it was faulty,

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was locked. She usually used the dead bolt, and she

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couldn't get in with her key. She knocked, hoping someone

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would open up. For a minute, she thought she heard

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footsteps on the stairs, but the door didn't open. Getting

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more anxious every time she knocked, Jan walked around the

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apartment to the sliding glass door and saw that it

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was slightly open and the vertical blinds were moving back

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and forth as if someone had just walked through. Inside.

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Jan's eyes fell on something that dropped her in her tracks.

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Four framed photographs of her daughters placed in an unsettling

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display on the open ironing board in the living room. Typically,

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these pictures, three of Robin and one of her older

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daughter were arranged on top of their stereo cabinet. Her

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panic escalated when she called out the names of Robin

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and Lisa and got no response.

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Speaker 3: Why you cannot vacuum.

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Speaker 5: I have.

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Speaker 6: My daughter, ma'am.

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Speaker 1: It's a cruel irony expecting calm from someone who's just

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found the unthinkable, a dead child. After seeing the framed

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photographs out of place, Jan made her way up to

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the second floor, her heart racing with fear and confusion.

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As she reached the top of the stairs, she rushed

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into her bedroom, where Robin slept with her. She found Robin,

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her precious eleven year old, lying on the floor. Robin's

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body was positioned on her stomach, knees tucked beneath her,

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her buttocks exposed, with a pillow placed under her. The

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sight was so unimaginable that Jan could hardly process it.

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Her maternal instincts took over as she rushed to her

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daughter's side, thinking, please, God, let her be alive. Jan

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immediately turned Robin over, positioning her flat on the floor,

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and began performing mouth to mouth resuscitation, her hands trembling

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with every breath she forced into her daughter's lungs. Robin's

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skin was cold, and in her heart, Jan understood, but

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even with that knowledge, she couldn't stop. A mother's instinct

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would not let her give up, not while there was

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even a shred of hope all this time. She screamed

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for Lisa to help her, but Lisa never came. Here's

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the lead detective on the case.

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Speaker 7: She immediately went to her. She was cold, she was

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not breathing. She was screaming for Lisa to come and help.

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Jane was able to get the phone and call nine

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one one. Lisa still was not coming. Of course, first responders,

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the police officers were there first, and then medics and realized,

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of course at that point that Robin had been killed,

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and one of the she had asked something about what

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about Lisa, you know, why where is she? She didn't

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realize Lisa also had been killed.

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Speaker 1: Within moments, sirens broke the silence and Cape Coral police

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arrived at the apartment. But for Jan, standing over her

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daughter's lifeless body, the damage was already done. The horror

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of that moment was something she would carry with her

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for the rest of her life. Both Lisa and Robin

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had been violently assaulted, sexually and suffocated. As investigators arrived

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and began combing through the apartment, Jan remembered things from

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the days before that now seemed like signs she'd missed,

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leading up to the murders, Janet sense if something was off.

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For instance, one night, she had been jolted awake by

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noises outside her condo as she was sure that someone

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was prowling around her place. On May ninth, she was

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at her bedroom window trying to get her cat to

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come back in. She spotted a man standing near the patio.

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This was a white male in jeans, a T shirt,

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and a hat. He stared at her for an unusually

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long time before giving her a creepy smile and walking away.

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After Jan's nine to one one call, investigators from the

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Florida Department of Law Enforcement and Cape Coral Police Department

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came to process the scene in painstaking detail. They captured

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every corner on video, took fingerprints, and gathered hair samples.

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This would be an intensive investigation that would leave no

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stone unturned. Learn First, detectives talk to everyone living in

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the neighborhood surrounding Jan Cornell's apartment, asking if anyone saw

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00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,559
or heard anything unusual, especially if they had seen the

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man in jeans and hat. They worked to track down

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anybody who matched that description, checking records and questioning every

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person who might have noticed suspicious activity in the area,

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but nobody seemed to know anything. Despite ongoing fears of

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the residents and the immediate community, the case came to

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a standstill cold. This is Robin's mother, Jan Cornell, years

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after the murders, in a twenty thirteen interview with Cape

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Coral police.

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Speaker 3: Not giving up.

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Speaker 6: I'm not going away.

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Speaker 3: I'm not giving up.

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Speaker 6: And thankfully I've been able to keep the Cape Coral

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Polace Department on board with my.

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Speaker 3: Promise. I've told them all about my promise. I promised to.

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Speaker 6: Day I had to say goodbye that for as long

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as I was alive, I would never stop looking for

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or hurt them. And like I said, I've managed to

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establish a relationship and keep the keep call a place

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on board and they're still looking as well. We'll just

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keep doing this as long as you know, we can

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reach out and ask people, because I'm convinced in my

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heart and soul that someone still in this community may

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have a knowledge of who did this crime. And they

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keep holding back and holding back, and every year I

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say it's time, it's time, please come forward.

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Speaker 1: In their search for suspects, investigators first focused on a

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man named Robert David Jackson, who had lived nearby and

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had a history of disturbing behavior. Local people knew him

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and called him Peeping Tom because of the obvious he

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was caught looking in through windows around the neighborhood. His

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ex girlfriend gave a statement saying she knew of his

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weird habits and that he was interested in perverse sexual activities.

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This was important as a sex toy was found at

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the scene. She also noted his very nervous demeanor following

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the murders, making her worry about his potential involvement. She

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said that Robert allegedly spent the night of the crime

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with friends, but was in a hurry to leave town

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soon afterward and fled to Mississippi. With suspicions mounting detectives

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worked with the authorities in Mississippi, coordinating a stakeout to

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intercept the Robert as he returned to his trailer. Robert

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was cooperative and signed a consent form for searches, including

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hair and blood samples. In his interview, he claimed he'd

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spent the night of the murders with two friends at

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local bars and had no connection to the crime scene.

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And you know what, for once he was telling the truth.

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When his samples were tested, the forensic results failed to

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link him to the crime. In addition to this guy,

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the investigators had built case files on other individuals in

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the neighborhood, including known offenders and nineteen additional possible suspects

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00:27:16,759 --> 00:27:19,920
who were questioned and asked to give fingerprints and hair samples,

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00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,799
but none of these leads matched the forensic evidence from

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the scene, leaving detectives and the family without answers for years. Finally,

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00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,440
the killer did come forward, but not in the way

400
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jan would expect. She had no idea that just a

401
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,240
few years later, this mystery would be solved, this nut

402
00:27:43,279 --> 00:27:47,279
would be cracked. This is Joseph talking about the sunny

403
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:53,720
shot and almost giving away a secret. Listen carefully, so.

404
00:27:53,799 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 3: He's no breaking their he said, pulled knives on me

405
00:27:57,039 --> 00:28:01,400
before I'm scared of he can be went and you know,

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00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:04,920
the last thirty years, I'm bum violent, I'm man violent,

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00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,079
you know all. I want to just live in peace

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to my house.

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00:28:08,319 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: Let's hear that part one more time.

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Speaker 3: The last thirty years, I'm bum violent, I'm man violent.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 1: It was almost thirty years since the murders. Twenty six

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years had gone by between nineteen ninety and twenty sixteen,

414
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the physical evidence, collected and meticulously preserved, was packed away,

415
00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:33,359
just waiting for advancements in forensic science to shed new light.

416
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,599
When Joseph Zeiler was taken into custody for shooting his son,

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a now routine DNA cheek swab, something unheard of in

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00:28:42,319 --> 00:28:46,359
nineteen ninety, linked him to the nineteen ninety crime scene,

419
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reigniting an investigation that had gone unsolved for decades.

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Speaker 8: Let me just make sure that I understand you're currently

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in custody with the Lee County at the Lee County Jail.

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00:28:59,759 --> 00:29:04,079
Speaker 9: First allegations with your son is correct. Yes, Okay, I

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00:29:04,119 --> 00:29:06,240
am not here to talk with you at all about that.

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00:29:08,319 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 8: I would like to talk with you about a couple

425
00:29:10,279 --> 00:29:13,000
other cases that your name has come up in that

426
00:29:13,079 --> 00:29:15,039
you might have some information and might be able to

427
00:29:15,079 --> 00:29:15,640
help us with.

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00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: But Joseph wasn't prepared to help anyone with anything ever

429
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,079
since his nineteen ninety eight accident, He says he basically

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00:29:24,079 --> 00:29:28,519
doesn't remember much, like even the fundamentals.

431
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 9: Okay, were you born here?

432
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 3: I was born and Alan born where? I have a

433
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,119
hard time with my memories.

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00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,079
Speaker 1: He briefly touches on his current relationship with Bonnie, but

435
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,079
he somehow forgets that he has an ex wife. He

436
00:29:49,079 --> 00:29:52,839
also forgets where he was born and where he worked.

437
00:29:53,279 --> 00:29:54,559
Speaker 10: Where did you work at before that?

438
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 3: I don't rather remember, or did you, gentle memor where

439
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,440
you worked at? No?

440
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 9: No, okay.

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00:30:05,559 --> 00:30:11,279
Speaker 11: The reason that I asked about Lorraine or Laurie is

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00:30:11,319 --> 00:30:14,839
because you and she appeared to have a home not

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00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,640
far from the hospital here in Cape Quarrel years back.

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00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 3: I remember living in Cape Quarrel. This is the first

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00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:23,000
time I've done her.

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00:30:24,039 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 9: You got a couple of addresses here in the Cape.

447
00:30:26,599 --> 00:30:29,799
Speaker 1: Jan, Lisa and Robin lived about a block away from

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00:30:29,839 --> 00:30:32,279
Cape Coral Hospital where Jan worked.

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00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 8: Well back in nineteen ninety we had a pretty big

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00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,880
case here in Cape Quarrel where somebody broke into an

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00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,200
apartment and I was hoping that you could maybe talk

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00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,400
to me about what you remember about that apartment complex,

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00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,319
if you saw anybody suspicious, if you were around there.

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Speaker 3: If you could help me with that.

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00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 9: If you have the picture of the does that look

456
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:53,039
earlier to you at all?

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00:30:54,279 --> 00:30:56,319
Speaker 3: Nothing at all?

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00:30:56,599 --> 00:30:58,759
Speaker 9: This is an attack side of this is the front door?

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00:31:00,839 --> 00:31:03,359
Speaker 3: Well, ma'am familiar to man.

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00:31:04,359 --> 00:31:04,759
Speaker 9: Mhm.

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00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 10: Look at it real hard. You remember this case, right, No,

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00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:12,799
you never seen anything on the news about it.

463
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,599
Speaker 3: I have no idea what you're talking about.

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00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 12: Much TV at home, not monks, every mady there's they

465
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,720
do these big stories about what happened here.

466
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 3: No, not that I can recall.

467
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 10: The actually you live with. If you go down Hancock,

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00:31:30,039 --> 00:31:30,920
they put.

469
00:31:30,759 --> 00:31:34,839
Speaker 12: Up a billboard just recently about this what happened.

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00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:36,839
Speaker 10: Already noticed that.

471
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,359
Speaker 3: No, sir, so I don't like. Don't leave my house

472
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,119
there not walks, stay within a couple of block area

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00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:46,119
and I walk my dog.

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00:31:46,559 --> 00:31:48,519
Speaker 10: Your driver's license is good. It look like you just

475
00:31:48,599 --> 00:31:51,000
renewed it a few years ago.

476
00:31:51,279 --> 00:31:53,079
Speaker 3: I think you can drive.

477
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 10: You have the ability to drive a car.

478
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,519
Speaker 3: I'm not supposed to drive. But I never said a

479
00:31:56,519 --> 00:31:57,480
license away.

480
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:03,039
Speaker 1: From Joseph either did remember where it was lying. And

481
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,559
it's always a careful balance. Detectives walk when they're interrogating.

482
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,920
It's like lighting a fire. You have to start with

483
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,960
a simple spark and slowly build it up, feeding it

484
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,920
just enough to keep it going without smothering it. You

485
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,960
push too hard and the fire dies out. You go

486
00:32:24,039 --> 00:32:28,400
too easy and it never catches. They know it's all

487
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,640
over as soon as a suspect asks for an attorney.

488
00:32:32,359 --> 00:32:36,799
Detectives have to pay attention to every flicker, turning up

489
00:32:36,839 --> 00:32:40,759
the pressure just enough, hoping that the truth will finally

490
00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:44,160
ignite before the flame is snuffed out.

491
00:32:45,119 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 10: I mean, it just looks like you have a lot

492
00:32:47,359 --> 00:32:50,319
inside of you. Yeah, I can understand right now. It's

493
00:32:50,319 --> 00:32:54,400
you're probably you're probably afraid well, but eventually everything.

494
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,119
Speaker 12: Kind of catches up with you. Thanks in the past,

495
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,519
the vestu late, you know, come to light. I always

496
00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:02,960
think to being honest about it just kind of relieves

497
00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:06,119
everything that people keep inside of them, you know, it's

498
00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:10,160
it's what happened. There is just probably not something that

499
00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:12,839
somebody meant to do. I really don't know what you're

500
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,119
talking about, sir, Well, I'm just staying up for instance,

501
00:33:15,359 --> 00:33:17,799
that this would have had to meet with someone for

502
00:33:18,079 --> 00:33:21,839
you know, plenty something years, and just probably something to

503
00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:24,279
really want to get off their chest.

504
00:33:24,839 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: You've heard enough interrogations to know what's coming next.

505
00:33:28,119 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 10: Right, you believe in God.

506
00:33:30,039 --> 00:33:37,079
Speaker 12: Right, it's always good to clench your sins before you

507
00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:41,160
go to meet God. Well, I think that's the best

508
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,160
thing is to confess sins and go see the man

509
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:45,440
with a clear conscience and.

510
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 3: Pray and give that mind saw off on my own even.

511
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,799
Speaker 10: Well, now it's kind of the time to do that.

512
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,119
Speaker 3: Don't understand what you're signing.

513
00:33:56,559 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 10: I mean you kind of you kind of know why

514
00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,839
you're here, right, No, No.

515
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 3: I what you're talking about? Well, let's I don't know

516
00:34:03,319 --> 00:34:04,200
what imply on.

517
00:34:04,799 --> 00:34:07,839
Speaker 1: The detectives found themselves face to face with either someone

518
00:34:07,839 --> 00:34:11,079
who didn't have much memory left or else was very

519
00:34:11,119 --> 00:34:16,679
consistent with his line they weren't getting anywhere. Joseph insisted

520
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,920
that he stayed out of trouble for a long time,

521
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,840
and the only offense he could recall was the one

522
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,920
he was just arrested for shooting his son in alleged

523
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,719
self defense. When they brought up a charge in Illinois

524
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,000
for burglary back in the eighties, again he had no recollection,

525
00:34:35,079 --> 00:34:39,039
so they asked, was he good at figuring out locks?

526
00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:42,599
Speaker 3: I don't remember over paying a burglar or.

527
00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:44,639
Speaker 9: And that's all old stuff.

528
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:46,079
Speaker 8: So, I mean, it's not like you know, and we're

529
00:34:46,119 --> 00:34:47,679
not in Illinois, so it's not like I'm going to

530
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,119
charge you with it. I'm just asking you know how

531
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,320
how your brain worked and.

532
00:34:53,840 --> 00:35:00,280
Speaker 3: Being any kind of burglar at all. I haven't she's

533
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,400
with my memory. I don't remember.

534
00:35:03,679 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 9: I know, that's what she keeps saying. And I'm sure

535
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,000
that you do have some memory issues. I think that

536
00:35:08,079 --> 00:35:10,320
you're also trying to play that card right now.

537
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 3: Okay.

538
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,519
Speaker 1: The next round of questions involved his personal and sexual life.

539
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,320
They wanted to know if he'd ever cheated on Bonnie,

540
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,679
whether he was a one woman kind of guy, or

541
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,920
what his preferences were, you know.

542
00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 9: Like, do you like children in a sexual way?

543
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 3: No, I don't like children, normal, realizes with my wife,

544
00:35:38,159 --> 00:35:41,280
and I'm very happy to stay at home.

545
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,519
Speaker 1: In twenty sixteen, Joseph, Bonnie, their son, and their son's

546
00:35:46,559 --> 00:35:51,199
girlfriend were living in Fort Myers, not Cape Coral, even

547
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,360
though Cape Coral was less than ten miles away. You'd

548
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,480
think Joseph lived in a cave on the other side

549
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,840
of the world. According to him, he didn't watch much TV,

550
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,199
didn't go very far, and when he did he was

551
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,840
usually on his bike. It sounds like me, doesn't it. Anyway?

552
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,000
As for nineteen ninety, that was buried in the distant past,

553
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,840
a year, he seemed to have wiped from memory like

554
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,840
an old hard drive scrub clean. To hear Joseph tell it,

555
00:36:20,599 --> 00:36:25,400
those years were long gone erased, leaving no trace for

556
00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:31,800
anyone to find. But, as he would soon learn, some

557
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:37,320
things don't stay hidden forever, and there are some sins

558
00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:43,440
you can't just pray away. Detectives then asked about porn.

559
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,320
He freely admitted using it, explaining that Bonnie knew it

560
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,559
and didn't mind. It was just part of life, nothing more,

561
00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:56,239
he claimed. But then the conversation shifted a bit. Out

562
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,360
came the photos of Robin and Lisa, to young faces

563
00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:04,239
that had been frozen in time since nineteen ninety.

564
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,559
Speaker 9: If you haven't seen them ever, I don't know who

565
00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:08,039
they are.

566
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 12: I know you don't know who they are. We're asking

567
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,159
you when you saw them.

568
00:37:13,559 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 3: I haven't seen them. I'm now what you're putting here

569
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:18,400
on the table.

570
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:20,159
Speaker 10: Well, look at him.

571
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:21,679
Speaker 3: I am looking at him.

572
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:23,519
Speaker 9: Should jog your memory.

573
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 3: A little bit.

574
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: But see, that's assuming he had a memory, And that

575
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,480
was the mystery, because if he's lying, he's damn good

576
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:34,800
at it.

577
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,679
Speaker 10: I don't know who they are a little bit I

578
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,960
can tell you. I can see in your eyes.

579
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 3: Well, he could be wrong, because I don't know who

580
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:43,199
they are.

581
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 10: I know I'm not wrong.

582
00:37:45,599 --> 00:37:49,199
Speaker 3: I don't recall ever seeing this girl before.

583
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 10: You've seen her before.

584
00:37:52,039 --> 00:37:55,199
Speaker 9: No, Kirk's telling the truth. You've absolutely seen her before.

585
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 3: Okay, I don't recall seeing her before.

586
00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:02,119
Speaker 12: Well, like I said, once you get this off your chest,

587
00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:04,760
you're gonna feel like the whole way of the world

588
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,039
is gone from the back of your shoulders.

589
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,679
Speaker 3: I don't carry any way. I pray every evening.

590
00:38:12,079 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: It had to be frustrating to know that they had

591
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:19,119
DNA fingerprints and hairstrands all connecting Joseph to the murders,

592
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,480
and yet could it be possible that he had no

593
00:38:23,599 --> 00:38:27,639
memory of it? You heard him say he prayed every evening.

594
00:38:28,679 --> 00:38:32,239
Was it also possible that he remembered the crimes, thought

595
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,360
he'd gotten away with it and actually tried to turn

596
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,239
over a new leaf, that is, until he shot his son.

597
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,079
Speaker 10: Because her mother thinks about she's the one that praised

598
00:38:43,199 --> 00:38:43,760
every day.

599
00:38:44,639 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 3: She's the one.

600
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 12: That's going through every day, not you. Her mother every

601
00:38:51,039 --> 00:38:54,280
day goes through what happened to her daughter.

602
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,519
Speaker 13: All right, So look at her.

603
00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 3: I have looked out her. I have looked out of

604
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:02,719
her and tell us the truth about what happened. I

605
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,159
have no idea what you're talking about. I've never seen

606
00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:06,480
that girl before in my life.

607
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,199
Speaker 9: Her name is Robin. She's not just a little girl.

608
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:11,199
Her name is Robin.

609
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:12,159
Speaker 3: Okay.

610
00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 9: Robin was a sweet, wonderful girl, all right.

611
00:39:17,159 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 10: Didn't deserve what happened. No one deserves what happened.

612
00:39:21,679 --> 00:39:22,119
Speaker 9: Correct.

613
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 3: I don't even know what happened, or I don't know

614
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:25,719
what she I'm flying.

615
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 1: Robin was a sweet girl. According to her mom, Jan,

616
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,119
she was a typical eleven year.

617
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 6: Old crossing over wanting to be that tomboy that could

618
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,559
beat boys at everything. She was just starting to think

619
00:39:41,599 --> 00:39:44,719
to herself, maybe I shouldn't be so good at this stuff.

620
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,000
Because she could beat boys at running, she could beat

621
00:39:49,039 --> 00:39:51,480
them at swimming, she could beat them at soccer. She

622
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,159
was pretty good, well rounded. She was just starting to

623
00:39:57,199 --> 00:40:01,199
ask boy questions. Every now and then. I'd still catch

624
00:40:01,199 --> 00:40:03,400
her playing with dolls. I'd say, what are you doing?

625
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,679
She'd say nothing, and I'd still catch her dressing and undressing,

626
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,639
and she still had dolls. So she was and she

627
00:40:11,679 --> 00:40:16,920
did very well in school, very easy going no matter

628
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,880
what situation came up. She wasn't one of these kids

629
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,360
that bulked at it. She just would get in the

630
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,039
car and let's go do whatever it is. Has to

631
00:40:27,079 --> 00:40:30,639
be done. But for the most part, Robin was very happy.

632
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,800
I have very few memories of her ever throwing a

633
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,440
fit or giving me a hard time. It was she

634
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:41,719
was pretty happy, go lucky, like to prank. She was

635
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:42,639
a big prankster.

636
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 1: She was friendly and had lots of friends at school.

637
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,960
More than twenty five years later, these friends still think

638
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,559
of Robin and stay in touch with jan.

639
00:40:53,159 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 9: This is a eleven year old little girl. This is Robin.

640
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 12: Okay about what her mother's gone through every single day

641
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,119
for the past twenty five years.

642
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 9: I'll just be breaking your.

643
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,519
Speaker 3: Heart right now, I can. I don't believe if I

644
00:41:10,599 --> 00:41:14,360
was seeing one of these girls. I don't really know

645
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:15,440
what's I'm lying here.

646
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 8: I'm not implying anything I'm selling. I'm telling you. I'm

647
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,159
saying that you know Robin, I don't know her. You've

648
00:41:24,199 --> 00:41:26,280
seen her, you've met her.

649
00:41:27,119 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 3: I don't know these girls.

650
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 9: Do you remember touching her?

651
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 3: Oh?

652
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,519
Speaker 1: No, Nothing was making this guy crack. And if they

653
00:41:36,519 --> 00:41:40,400
could just get him to admit anything, but he wouldn't.

654
00:41:40,679 --> 00:41:43,760
If they could just get him to acknowledge that he

655
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,280
gave his DNA and they had him as a match,

656
00:41:47,159 --> 00:41:51,320
but he couldn't or wouldn't even admit to remembering being swabbed.

657
00:41:52,079 --> 00:41:54,639
Speaker 8: Do you remember being swabbed by the detective that you

658
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,360
had a long conversation with, that you told him what

659
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,719
happened between you and your son. I'm not getting into that,

660
00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:01,920
but that you talked to him about what happened between

661
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:06,679
you and your son, That you talked him about your accident,

662
00:42:07,159 --> 00:42:10,239
the settlement, the house that you bought, all kinds of

663
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,760
those details, and you remember him swabbing with a big.

664
00:42:13,559 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 9: Long cue tip the inside of your mouth.

665
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,679
Speaker 3: I don't remember any of that converse. I've I mean,

666
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,320
you're saying that I settle that stuff, but I can't

667
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,480
remember saying I don't remember the full procedure of what

668
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:26,119
they did to me.

669
00:42:26,559 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 8: Okay, right, well, I guarantee you that that's exactly what happened. Okay, okay,

670
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,000
because that is procedure.

671
00:42:32,119 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 3: All right.

672
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 9: Do you understand how DNA works?

673
00:42:34,679 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 3: No?

674
00:42:35,039 --> 00:42:36,159
Speaker 9: Do you know what DNA is?

675
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:36,599
Speaker 3: No?

676
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 9: You have no clue at all.

677
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:38,079
Speaker 3: No.

678
00:42:38,079 --> 00:42:41,199
Speaker 8: Now, okay, so DNA to you could mean really just

679
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:42,079
about anything.

680
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 10: Okay, just explain with DNA.

681
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,519
Speaker 9: What is your understanding of DNA?

682
00:42:46,639 --> 00:42:48,119
Speaker 3: I don't happening. I'm just standing enough.

683
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 10: DNA what is DNA.

684
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: I don't know whether he remembered anything or not. He

685
00:42:53,079 --> 00:42:56,239
knew exactly what was up when they mentioned DNA.

686
00:42:57,079 --> 00:43:00,119
Speaker 8: So when you were swabbed, when they took your d

687
00:43:01,039 --> 00:43:04,079
that went to a database, all right, and your DNA

688
00:43:04,199 --> 00:43:09,280
was found on my crimesy from a previous you know,

689
00:43:09,519 --> 00:43:14,519
back in nineteen ninety. So this is the time, Joe,

690
00:43:14,559 --> 00:43:17,400
that I need for you to really take a nice

691
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,119
deep breath and realize it.

692
00:43:20,119 --> 00:43:22,199
Speaker 9: It's time for the lies to stop.

693
00:43:22,639 --> 00:43:26,559
Speaker 8: It's time for this saying I don't remember, I don't recall.

694
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 3: I'd like to speak to much.

695
00:43:29,039 --> 00:43:33,159
Speaker 1: For jan it was always about the DNA. Even back

696
00:43:33,159 --> 00:43:37,199
in this twenty thirteen interview, she hadn't lost hope. She

697
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,320
knew that advancements in this research would eventually bring answers.

698
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,079
Speaker 6: Whenever my phone rings and I know it's the police department,

699
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,599
or I'll get a text from christialis who's my detective,

700
00:43:51,199 --> 00:43:54,719
and she'll just say call me, I'm like, you know,

701
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,840
I always get that little bit of but she says

702
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,760
she's not going to do that. Has she's coming to

703
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,840
my door. But you know, some of the leads look

704
00:44:06,079 --> 00:44:11,800
really good, but it's going to come down to the DNA,

705
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,320
and if we have the DNA, would send it in

706
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,000
and it comes back and non matching.

707
00:44:17,039 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 3: No matter how good it looked, He's not our person.

708
00:44:20,679 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 1: When that said, No matter how much or how little

709
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,519
Joseph Ziler remembered or how many times he insisted on

710
00:44:27,559 --> 00:44:33,280
his innocence, DNA doesn't lie. And his DNA was all

711
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:39,800
over the place, including on and in Robin. The probability

712
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:44,320
of it being anyone else was astronomically low. There was

713
00:44:44,559 --> 00:44:48,719
no escaping the science. But would Joseph's had trauma and

714
00:44:49,079 --> 00:44:53,000
alleged loss of memory be mitigating factors in a trial

715
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,639
or would the jury see him for what he was?

716
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:35,360
A cold sexual predator, burglar, and killer. For decades, the

717
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,079
brutal murders of eleven year old Robin Cornell and thirty

718
00:45:39,079 --> 00:45:42,880
two year old Lisa's story haunted the quiet community of

719
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,800
Cape Coral, Florida. The two were brutally assaulted and suffocated

720
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,880
in their home in nineteen ninety, their innocent lives stolen

721
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,599
in an act of violence that left officers sobbing as

722
00:45:55,639 --> 00:46:00,559
they left the heartbreaking scene. Despite the painstaking and instigation,

723
00:46:00,679 --> 00:46:04,440
including forensic work and interviews with dozens of potential suspects.

724
00:46:05,199 --> 00:46:09,360
The case went cold until twenty sixteen. It was then,

725
00:46:09,559 --> 00:46:14,639
during an unrelated domestic dispute, that Joseph Zeiler's DNA was

726
00:46:14,679 --> 00:46:18,760
collected and linked to the nineteen ninety crime scene. Joseph,

727
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,679
who had lived quietly for years denying any connection to

728
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,400
the murders, was suddenly at the center of a case

729
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,880
that had remained unsolved for more than twenty five years.

730
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,599
It was his third interview. He was already in jail

731
00:46:35,639 --> 00:46:38,559
for shooting his son with a pellet gun in an argument.

732
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:43,119
According to Joseph, his son was a drunken bully who

733
00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:47,719
had been belligerent and Joseph had enough. Now he was

734
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,360
faced with the reality that the police had DNA on

735
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,119
him from this incident and were arresting him for the

736
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:59,480
nineteen ninety murders of Robin and Lisa. Joseph claimed to

737
00:46:59,559 --> 00:47:02,880
have no memory of anything occurring before a nineteen ninety

738
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:08,519
eight head injury, but detectives didn't believe them. Still, he

739
00:47:08,639 --> 00:47:13,920
confessed to nothing. In his final interview with detectives, Joseph

740
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:20,039
seemed almost resigned. He spoke in calm tones, reflecting on

741
00:47:20,159 --> 00:47:23,760
life and morality, as if he were an outsider to

742
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,480
his own story. Not once during the three interviews did

743
00:47:27,519 --> 00:47:31,039
he get mad, yell, or have an outburst.

744
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,159
Speaker 3: I couldn't thank you up on that side. I'll talk

745
00:47:33,159 --> 00:47:36,519
to me the last one. Arm or kid, What do

746
00:47:36,559 --> 00:47:36,960
you like.

747
00:47:42,199 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: For someone who would be standing trial for two of

748
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:49,119
the most brutal murders Florida has ever seen? Joseph seemed

749
00:47:49,119 --> 00:47:52,840
like he was anything but a monster. He began reflecting

750
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,239
on how blessed he'd been to have a home and

751
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,079
how he was worried about Bonnie now living there alone

752
00:47:59,199 --> 00:48:02,920
with their alcohol son. He maintained that he knew he

753
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,519
would need to let her go. It was almost as

754
00:48:05,519 --> 00:48:08,639
if he was facing the gallows in these moments and

755
00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:14,159
knew he'd come to Jesus soon because he's repented.

756
00:48:15,039 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 3: She is a very beautiful and kind of moment, so

757
00:48:19,039 --> 00:48:21,800
she deserves to put her lives that I argue one on.

758
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:28,559
Speaker 13: That place to here, that's not the purtiest. It's all yeah,

759
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,159
I'm sure what I could. I was plussed.

760
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:36,519
Speaker 1: It really seemed like this was a confessional. Joseph went

761
00:48:36,519 --> 00:48:39,840
on to plead not guilty in the trial, but for now,

762
00:48:40,119 --> 00:48:46,480
saying I enjoyed it while I could. I was blessed, sure,

763
00:48:46,559 --> 00:48:48,639
felt like he knew he was never going to go

764
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:52,599
home again. And then the conversation took a bizarre turn

765
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:54,519
into moral speculation.

766
00:48:55,519 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 3: I don't think she cole inherried least start out that.

767
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:03,280
I think, you know, it's just a product of years

768
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:10,320
of environment, product in their environment. Absolutely, I totally agree

769
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:10,559
with you.

770
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,079
Speaker 9: I mean, you know, I think you know, you.

771
00:49:13,079 --> 00:49:16,159
Speaker 3: Go into a hostle field and babies and man remember

772
00:49:16,199 --> 00:49:22,199
bad Unfortunately saying as to other things, you know, yeah, well,

773
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:26,360
I just don't think that anybody means to start out

774
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:33,159
inherently bad. I totally agree with you, totally. Yeah.

775
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,119
Speaker 13: And you know, and I've been doing these investigations for

776
00:49:36,159 --> 00:49:39,320
a long time, and you know, I've I've talked to

777
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,320
a lot of people who actually have done very bad stuff, and.

778
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 3: You know, and I've talking to them.

779
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,599
Speaker 13: They're just not you know, they're they're not the evil

780
00:49:49,639 --> 00:49:51,840
monster that people may think they are.

781
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 3: They just say or something.

782
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 13: They may they may be someone who did something bad,

783
00:49:55,519 --> 00:49:57,679
but you know, you know, like me and you were

784
00:49:57,679 --> 00:50:00,840
having this conversation, they're not a a bad person.

785
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:01,639
Speaker 3: Sitting in front of me.

786
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 1: For the record, he was using a hypothetical situation about

787
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,719
another person. He said, they are not a bad person

788
00:50:10,079 --> 00:50:13,760
sitting in front of me, because Joseph was a different story.

789
00:50:14,599 --> 00:50:17,880
There's no way the detective is sitting there thinking that

790
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,679
the man across from him was anything other than evil,

791
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:26,159
knowing what he did to Lisa's story in Robin Cornell, No, I.

792
00:50:26,079 --> 00:50:30,079
Speaker 9: Agree, I agree. I think you know, everybody has a

793
00:50:30,119 --> 00:50:32,960
story to tell him. You know, they got a history

794
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,840
and the reasons for real.

795
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 3: You can't fly on other people for your for your reasons.

796
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:46,119
And I would never began to try to make any

797
00:50:46,199 --> 00:50:51,400
kind of excuses for you know, anything like that. It's

798
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,440
just that people just don't start out inherent really bad.

799
00:50:55,159 --> 00:50:58,559
It's just the way it is. Yeah, nobody's born. What's up?

800
00:50:59,679 --> 00:51:01,199
What's the that's fun? Animals?

801
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:06,199
Speaker 1: Did Joseph really believe in accountability or was he just

802
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:10,239
setting the stage for sympathy at his trial. During the

803
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,239
trial in May of twenty twenty three, testimony from a

804
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:20,599
psychiatrist painted a different picture. Zyler's strict, authoritarian father, combined

805
00:51:20,639 --> 00:51:24,519
with a head injury that caused memory loss and depression,

806
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:30,400
created a volatile mix of repression and anger. To the expert,

807
00:51:30,559 --> 00:51:33,639
this wasn't about being born evil, but about how a

808
00:51:33,639 --> 00:51:38,079
lifetime of unchecked damage can warp a person's mind.

809
00:51:38,559 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 14: This is a complicated person to grow up with when

810
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,880
you're supposed to be learning about rules of society and

811
00:51:45,039 --> 00:51:47,360
being frightened to break rules in the home because of

812
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,519
the risk to yourself. So I think that makes him

813
00:51:50,639 --> 00:51:53,679
very confused regarding his father.

814
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,519
Speaker 1: But for the families of Lisa's story in Robin Cornell,

815
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,920
no amount of psychological insight could undo the harm Joseph

816
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:06,599
had caused. Lisa, who had just moved into jan Cornell's apartment,

817
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,079
was remembered by her boyfriend as a kind, thoughtful person

818
00:52:11,199 --> 00:52:14,000
with a bright future ahead of her. One of the

819
00:52:14,039 --> 00:52:17,920
few gifts she left behind was a watch she was

820
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,880
going to give him for his birthday. It was engraved

821
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,760
with love from Lisa and was never recovered. It was

822
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,599
stolen from the crime scene by this killer, who also

823
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,800
caused unspeakable harm to an eleven year old girl in

824
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:37,760
her final moments. This was Lisa's boyfriend at the time,

825
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,760
remembering what happened in nineteen ninety.

826
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 2: She was a very outgoing person of vivaceous personality, very caring, compassionate,

827
00:52:49,519 --> 00:52:51,400
a lot of fun to be around. She was just

828
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,039
to get all American girl, hard worker. We had planned

829
00:52:55,079 --> 00:53:00,000
on getting married around her birthday, in the middle of September.

830
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,039
Speaker 3: Have you actually said a date, yes? Or September fifteenth?

831
00:53:04,679 --> 00:53:05,599
When's your birthday?

832
00:53:06,079 --> 00:53:10,800
Speaker 15: Maybe eleventh, the day after she was found deceased, right, yes, sir.

833
00:53:12,199 --> 00:53:16,039
Speaker 2: I don't know why. My heart was broken, you know,

834
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,880
and I loved her very much, still do.

835
00:53:19,639 --> 00:53:22,559
Speaker 1: Lisa's boyfriend wasn't the only one to take the stand

836
00:53:22,639 --> 00:53:26,280
during the trial. Of course, Jan Cornell gave a heart

837
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:30,719
wrenching testimony. Most of the time, defense attorneys don't allow

838
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,840
their clients to take the stand, but Joseph Zeiler was

839
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,800
so adamant that he was innocent that there was no

840
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:42,360
stopping him. But of course, he was not expecting his

841
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,639
own incriminating words to quote come back and bite him

842
00:53:46,639 --> 00:53:52,039
in the ass. Between September eighth and fifteenth, twenty sixteen,

843
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:57,639
Joseph Zeiler made five recorded calls to his girlfriend Bonnie

844
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,840
Nicely from jail us don directing Bonnie to get him

845
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,239
out of jail, telling her to claim he was too

846
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:10,360
incapacitated to flee. Tell the bondsman, you're my caretaker, he said,

847
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:12,960
and get power of attorney, so you can access my

848
00:54:13,079 --> 00:54:18,119
safety deposit box. As the calls went on, Zeiler's calm

849
00:54:18,119 --> 00:54:22,400
instructions turned even more specific. If anything comes down that

850
00:54:22,599 --> 00:54:27,000
is upsetting you, if anything embarrassing comes down, you need

851
00:54:27,039 --> 00:54:30,119
to pack a bag and run. You warned her, the

852
00:54:30,159 --> 00:54:32,960
house is going to be converged on. Do you understand

853
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,360
what we're talking about Back in nineteen ninety I did

854
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,000
go through this before and nothing bit me in the ass,

855
00:54:39,039 --> 00:54:43,400
So there's a very good chance at won't. These cryptic references,

856
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,519
along with repeatedly saying that he would deal with it

857
00:54:46,559 --> 00:54:49,519
if his pass caught up with him, gave detectives a

858
00:54:49,559 --> 00:54:54,800
window into Joseph's thoughts. On September twenty second, Joseph called

859
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,800
Bonnie in a panic cape Carl, Cops, you're trying to

860
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,119
pin some shit on me. Bonnie, who had no idea

861
00:55:01,559 --> 00:55:05,320
he was a killer, was visibly shaken and later agreed

862
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:11,000
to meet with detectives. The calls revealed what his interviews hadn't.

863
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:15,920
Joseph wasn't just hiding something. He was terrified of what

864
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,440
was about to come to light. He started out calmly,

865
00:55:19,559 --> 00:55:22,840
thinking he had control of the courtroom and claiming that

866
00:55:23,199 --> 00:55:26,679
an unknown blonde hair found at the scene must have

867
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,320
belonged to his brother. But when it was pointed out

868
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:34,360
that blood analysis determined he was the killer, his demeanor

869
00:55:34,519 --> 00:55:39,400
shifted dramatically. The man who had once calmly told detectives

870
00:55:39,519 --> 00:55:43,840
that he didn't believe people were born bad now faced

871
00:55:44,159 --> 00:55:48,840
the courtroom with defiance and cruelty, and sometimes the middle finger.

872
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:53,400
His testimony was less about defense and more about provoking

873
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:55,000
and blaming.

874
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,599
Speaker 4: The only way my DNA could have gotten her was

875
00:55:58,679 --> 00:56:01,320
me sleeping with check and Leanne Deller.

876
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 15: Did you sleep with jan Cornell and miss Dellar?

877
00:56:05,119 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 3: It's possible because I was here. Well, now you were here.

878
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,159
Speaker 4: I mean I was here in December eighty nine. I

879
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,039
testified to that earlier. And what I believe happened is

880
00:56:15,079 --> 00:56:18,880
I slept with Jack Cornell and Leanne Dellar, and there

881
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:20,880
are just too much of a pig not to wash

882
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:21,480
your seats.

883
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:26,639
Speaker 15: It was January, February, March, April, May of nineteen ninety

884
00:56:27,039 --> 00:56:29,639
and then, well, okay, I don't want to get a

885
00:56:29,639 --> 00:56:32,280
compound question. Your DNA would have still been there five

886
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:32,840
months later.

887
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 3: Yes, And that's.

888
00:56:34,679 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 15: Because they're pigs and they don't wash their sheets exactly.

889
00:56:38,159 --> 00:56:38,760
Speaker 9: You know that.

890
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:44,559
Speaker 4: Well, I assume that, just like you're assuming not that.

891
00:56:45,679 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 9: But just so the record's clear.

892
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 15: When I said they're pigs and they wash their sheets, that's.

893
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:50,159
Speaker 3: What you said. Absolutely.

894
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:54,079
Speaker 1: Whereas the interview room at the police station showed a meek,

895
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:58,360
mild and well mannered person with head trauma and memory loss,

896
00:56:59,119 --> 00:57:01,840
now his memory, he was suddenly sharp enough to recall

897
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:03,800
that he had been in the area a few months

898
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:07,559
before the murders and had slept with Jan. For the record,

899
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,480
Jan had never slept with Joseph Zeiler in her lifetime.

900
00:57:12,119 --> 00:57:13,920
In fact, she'd never even seen him.

901
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 4: Well, she's calling me a rapist and a murderer, so

902
00:57:18,039 --> 00:57:21,079
what I can't I can't write that.

903
00:57:21,719 --> 00:57:23,599
Speaker 3: I mean, she'd called me a rapist.

904
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 4: And a murderer, and I'm calling her a pig for

905
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:26,599
not washing her sheets.

906
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:30,559
Speaker 1: The prosecutor got rid of any notion that this vile man,

907
00:57:30,719 --> 00:57:33,159
Joseph should be taken seriously.

908
00:57:34,039 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 5: None of his testimonies backed up by any evidence. All

909
00:57:37,599 --> 00:57:41,119
the evidence actually points the other directions his guilt.

910
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 1: Robin and Lisa's family still wonder even today about the

911
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:50,079
true motive of the assault and murder. They wonder if

912
00:57:50,119 --> 00:57:54,039
he was stalking them, if they had unknowingly met him

913
00:57:54,079 --> 00:57:57,519
and caused him to want revenge. Or maybe this was

914
00:57:57,599 --> 00:58:01,159
just a simple burglary that had gone wrong. Maybe it

915
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:02,199
was all three.

916
00:58:03,199 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 9: What was his motive?

917
00:58:05,159 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 5: If I had to explain why a child molester molest

918
00:58:10,039 --> 00:58:14,400
children because they're sick, I couldn't answer that. But the

919
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:18,079
beautiful part is I don't have to answer that. I

920
00:58:18,119 --> 00:58:21,239
don't have to tell you why he did it. On

921
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,159
May of nineteen ninety, he murdered them.

922
00:58:24,039 --> 00:58:28,119
Speaker 9: In Cape Coral. What was his motive? I don't care,

923
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:29,760
thank you.

924
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:34,199
Speaker 1: On June twenty sixth, twenty twenty three, Joseph Zeiler was

925
00:58:34,239 --> 00:58:37,119
sentenced to death for the nineteen ninety murders of eleven

926
00:58:37,199 --> 00:58:40,559
year old Robin Cornell and thirty two year old Lisa's

927
00:58:40,599 --> 00:58:45,039
Story in Cape Coral, Florida. The sentencing followed a jury's

928
00:58:45,039 --> 00:58:47,960
recommendation for the death penalty, with ten out of twelve

929
00:58:48,079 --> 00:58:53,639
jurys in favor. During the sentencing hearing, the once call

930
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:59,079
man who prayed every evening decided to elbow his attorney

931
00:58:59,639 --> 00:59:04,039
in the face for their proving that maybe he was

932
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:05,880
inherently evil.

933
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,559
Speaker 3: After all, some people never gets the opportunity and the

934
00:59:09,719 --> 00:59:14,039
story the things off and so I appreciate and so

935
00:59:14,239 --> 00:59:20,719
constantly I understand that situation. No one starts our life

936
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,000
fly in't a bad way.

937
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: No, this may be true, but they most definitely can

938
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,400
end up in a bad way. During that same interview,

939
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:37,000
he said one more thing that was both prophetic and chilling.

940
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 3: Got the eyes of the Lord and just a just

941
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:46,559
a man trying to make flu eyes. How that effects.

942
00:59:48,199 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 1: Little Robin's eyes were blue, Joseph Ziler's were not. Joseph

943
00:59:56,119 --> 01:00:02,559
Zeiler denied being born evil. He sat across from detectives

944
01:00:02,599 --> 01:00:07,760
and calmly insisted that he believed no one is inherently bad,

945
01:00:08,599 --> 01:00:13,400
but his actions could not have been more demonic. The

946
01:00:13,519 --> 01:00:18,119
violence he inflicted, the lives he stole, and the families

947
01:00:18,159 --> 01:00:23,760
he shattered painted a picture that even he will never forget,

948
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:38,280
whether he admits it or not. We hope you like

949
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:40,280
that one. We think it's gonna be one of the

950
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,679
ones you remember for a long time. There's a few

951
01:00:43,039 --> 01:00:45,800
episodes of Sword and Scale that just can't get out

952
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,159
of your head, you know. I think that was one

953
01:00:48,199 --> 01:00:52,159
of them. So you're welcome, by the way, if you

954
01:00:52,239 --> 01:00:55,239
really like the show, and you want to help us out.

955
01:00:55,679 --> 01:00:58,800
If you want to support the arts, head on over

956
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:02,559
to Swordinscale dot com, download our apps available on Android

957
01:01:03,199 --> 01:01:08,320
or Apple devices, and subscribe to Plus. That's how you

958
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:12,320
can make sure that we're gonna still be here next week. Hint,

959
01:01:12,719 --> 01:01:16,679
motherfucking hint. We also have a store if you want

960
01:01:16,679 --> 01:01:19,800
to support us that way. We've got shirts and hats

961
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:23,119
and all kinds of shit. Go look at it store

962
01:01:23,159 --> 01:01:26,119
dot sord and Scale dot com. This story was written

963
01:01:26,159 --> 01:01:30,159
and researched by our producer, Valerie Vernon. That's it. I

964
01:01:30,159 --> 01:01:33,360
got nothing else. I'm just gonna sit here till the

965
01:01:33,679 --> 01:01:40,039
music stops because it's a rule FCC three one eight.

966
01:01:41,039 --> 01:02:00,159
Speaker 16: So oh look it's time. Okay bye s.

967
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 8: Shaking, stagg

968
01:02:22,159 --> 01:02:57,559
Speaker 3: Shaking, shaking, ship shaking, shaved, moved and moved,