WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.080 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.559 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 6 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:33.359 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 7 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:45.119 Good Evening, a twisting, deeply engrossing investigation into the many 8 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:49.719 lingering questions surrounding the sudden disappearance of the mix Stays, 9 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:53.960 a family of four who vanished from their suburban San 10 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:58.759 Diego home without a trace until their skeletal remains were 11 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:03.200 found in the Mohave Desert nearly four years later, from 12 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:09.560 New York Times best selling author Caitlin Rother. On February fifteen, 13 00:01:09.640 --> 00:01:14.519 twenty ten, Joseph McStay, his wife Summer, and their two 14 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:17.879 young sons were reported missing from their new home in 15 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:22.280 San Diego County. They left eggs and fruit rotting on 16 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:26.760 the counter, their Dodge truck sat in the driveway. Their 17 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:32.400 dogs were abandoned outside without food, but investigators found no blood, 18 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:37.239 signs of a struggle or clues to their whereabouts. Did 19 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:41.599 the family take an unannounced vacation. Were they running away 20 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:47.480 from personal problems or were they victims of foul play. 21 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:51.920 Nearly four years later, a motorcyclist found the mcstay's remains 22 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:55.879 in and around two shallow graves one hundred miles away 23 00:01:55.879 --> 00:02:00.439 in the Mojave Desert. Their skulls showed signs of blunt 24 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:04.879 force trauma, likely due to the sledgehammer buried with them. 25 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:09.800 Authorities focused on Charles Chase Merrit, a close friend and 26 00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:15.400 subcontractor for Joseph's company. Despite a lack of physical evidence, 27 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:22.199 scenarios that defied logic, and numerous unanswered questions, prosecutors convinced 28 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:26.840 the jury of Merit's guilt. After an emotional sentencing hearing, 29 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:33.159 the judge imposed the death penalty, but did another possible suspect, 30 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:37.319 who was ignored by investigators and duct to subpoena to testify, 31 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:42.960 get away with murder. In this twisting, deeply researched true 32 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:47.759 crime mystery, New York Times bestselling investigative journalist Caitlin Rother 33 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:52.280 hunts for answers to reveal the truth behind a heinous 34 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:58.120 crime that became a nation's obsession, with a controversial trial 35 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:03.800 in its wake and lincring questions of justice. The book 36 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:06.960 that we were featuring this evening is Down to the Bone, 37 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:13.080 a missing famili's murder and the elusive quest for Justice, 38 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:19.520 with my special guest, investigative journalist and author Caitlyn Rother. 39 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:23.639 Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much 40 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:26.000 for this interview. Caitlyn Rother. 41 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:29.159 Thank you for having me back on. 42 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:35.800 And congratulations on your latest book, Down to the Bone. 43 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:36.680 Thank you again. 44 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:41.319 Now you are a New York Times bestselling author. This 45 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:46.360 is your fifteenth book you write. What did you as 46 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:50.039 an author? What did your research involve in writing this book? 47 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:56.759 So this case happened back in February of twenty ten, 48 00:03:56.919 --> 00:04:00.000 so it's been a while, but I think this book 49 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:03.800 probably took me longer to research than probably any other 50 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:08.159 book because I had twelve years to do it from 51 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:14.639 the time that this family of four, Joseph Summer, Jianni 52 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:21.079 and Joey Junior mxtay, all disappeared from their house in Albert, California. 53 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:24.759 This case kind of got a slow start, but I 54 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:28.279 knew pretty soon that it was going to be a 55 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:32.360 book worthy case because you know, people go missing, kids 56 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:37.319 go missing, you know, moms sometimes go missing, teenagers go missing, 57 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:40.720 but it's usually one at a time. It's very unusual 58 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:44.160 for a family to go missing, a family four, especially 59 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:46.759 when there's two little kids, when they're all together, because 60 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:50.600 you know, I've been told by detectives that you know, 61 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:52.720 one of the parents will take one of the kids 62 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:55.879 and run off. But the fact that all four of 63 00:04:55.920 --> 00:05:01.040 them went off together and we're missing was very unusual, 64 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:04.240 and it was a mystery because nobody knew why they disappeared. 65 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:08.879 So anyway, it was investigated for over three years as 66 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:11.680 just a missing person's case, so it was kind of 67 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:14.120 a slow start, but you know, they were featured on 68 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.800 the cover of People magazine, so it was a nationally 69 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:21.519 high profile case. It was on Nancy Grace a lot. 70 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:24.079 They talked about every little turn of the cog and 71 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:26.759 every little turn of the wheel, because everybody was like, 72 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:32.360 what happened to these adorable little boys. So basically, the 73 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:36.399 San Diego County Sheriff's Department investigated it as a missing 74 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:38.600 person's case, which they came under quite a bit of 75 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:41.600 criticism for, and then they dropped the case and said, 76 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:45.000 you know what, we think that they went to Mexico voluntarily, 77 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:48.560 and I'll get into why that is in the book. 78 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:50.759 I'm not going to go into too much time into that. Now, 79 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:54.879 eight months later, the skeletal remains of this family were 80 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:57.759 found in two shallow graves in the Mojave Desert, about 81 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:00.920 one hundred miles from their house. Literally did not go 82 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:04.959 to Mexico. They were basically bludgeoned to death in the 83 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:08.120 back of their skulls because they each had holes in 84 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:11.480 the backs of their skulls, and then put into these 85 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:14.680 two shallow graves with one adult and one child in each. 86 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:18.560 So from that point they were in San Bernardino County 87 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:22.879 and that then moved into a homicide investigation. They did 88 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:28.759 that pretty quickly, arrested one of Joseph's business associates, Charles 89 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:32.120 Chase Merritt, within about a year, and then the case 90 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:34.959 took a while to get to trial because it's a 91 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:38.720 death penalty case. But Merritt also kept switching attorneys, so 92 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:41.759 by the time you know the trial was over and 93 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:44.959 the sentencing, you know, it had been a good ten years. 94 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:47.279 And then you know, I then go into high gear 95 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:50.639 and do start going deeper into my research. But I 96 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:53.319 had been to the preliminary hearing, which was two days. 97 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:57.639 I had I had also, you know, read three hundred 98 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:01.720 pages of searchworn affidavit that came out early when a 99 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:05.480 group of media sued the Sheriff's Department to release them 100 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:10.439 because they were not releasing information. And then I basically 101 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:12.480 wrote a book after I got a contract. Things were 102 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:15.759 really hard because of COVID, and the courthouses were closed 103 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:18.680 and you could, you know, limited hours, and people took 104 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:22.160 forever to respond. So basically, you know, this research tracked 105 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:23.920 on for a long long time. I wrote a book 106 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:27.600 of about ninety thousand words, and all this time I 107 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:30.240 had been trying to get what I got for Death 108 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:33.519 on Ocean Boulevard, which was my last book. Same Sheriff's Department, 109 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:38.360 San Diego Sheriff's Department, and curiously, same allegations by the 110 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:43.399 family of Rebecca's The How, which basically believed that Rebecca's 111 00:07:43.399 --> 00:07:47.319 the How was murdered. Sheriff's department said she killed herself 112 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:50.079 when she was found hanging naked, bound and gagged in 113 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:53.439 the rear courtyard of the of the Spreckles mansion Cornado. 114 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:57.800 In this case, the defense for Chase Merritt said it 115 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:01.759 was confirmation bias. They arrested him. Basically what that means 116 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:05.920 is investigators decide on a premise or a theory or 117 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:08.800 a suspect and just will not move from it, no 118 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:11.720 matter what evidence they see to the contrary. So this 119 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:15.000 was to me like part one and part two of 120 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:18.920 a pattern of investigative flaws of the way that they 121 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:23.079 approached and that was continued as an allegation when it 122 00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:27.319 got to trial with the prosecution. So you know, by 123 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.040 the point that I've written a book based on what 124 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:33.360 I got from the exhibits, which twelve thousand exhibits. That's 125 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:35.360 a lot of exhibits. I went and copied them. Took 126 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:38.159 me five days with a copy machine, because these are 127 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:41.840 file folders full of you know, thousands of hundreds or 128 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:45.679 thousands of pages of documents that were presented in court. 129 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:50.519 There were also other documents that were presented that I 130 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:52.759 think the jury probably even looked at, but were entered 131 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:57.080 for purposes of merits appeal. And so I basically had 132 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:00.720 all those and I wrote a book about nine and 133 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:04.879 then four months before my deadline, I finally got these 134 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:08.240 documents that I've been working to obtain for twelve years. 135 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:12.320 That is all the investigative reports from both sheriff's departments 136 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:15.600 and many of the witness interviews that they did, and 137 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:18.399 a lot of the background materials, so it basically had 138 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:23.360 to completely rewrite the book. So because once I had 139 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:26.799 that research, that new research, which was full of juicy 140 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:29.240 materials about what was going on behind the scenes in 141 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:32.360 the investigation that was never made public. You cannot get 142 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:35.440 these files with the public records request. You have to 143 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:38.480 get them from somebody involved in the case. And I 144 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:41.039 was able to do the same thing with Death on 145 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:44.519 Ocean Boulevard, and so, you know, these are things that 146 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:47.799 the investigators don't really want to be made public because 147 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:50.159 it doesn't always make them look good. But I was 148 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:53.080 able to work out all the way through the book, 149 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:56.399 and so there's a lot of new and exclusive information 150 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:00.720 that was never made public before, and so much of 151 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:03.759 it didn't even get into the trial. Because of all 152 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:06.120 of these it was such a messy, messy case, which 153 00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:11.200 which I you know, explain and examine in this book. 154 00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:13.440 So that's a long answer to your question. 155 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:17.720 Yes, you certainly do. Now let's go back for people 156 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:22.720 that don't know this story, and you do paint a 157 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:26.480 compelling portrait of the Mixtage family life at the time 158 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:29.759 that they disappeared. So tell us about Joseph in Summer, 159 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:34.480 Jianni and Joseph Jr. And their life. Tell us about 160 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:37.919 what where they were at and what was happening at 161 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:39.120 the time they disappeared. 162 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:45.799 Okay, so the family was basically personally, at least, you know, 163 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:50.840 going through a bit of a crisis. So shortly before 164 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:56.840 they disappeared, Summer had filed a CPS TIALD Protective Services 165 00:10:56.879 --> 00:10:59.399 complaint and I can't go into details about that for 166 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:02.919 privacy reasons, but suffice it to say that it caused 167 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:10.440 divisions within Joseph's extended family. So Summer had a falling 168 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:14.039 out with Michael McStay, Joseph's brother, even before that happened, 169 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:18.360 so there was some division there as well. According to him, 170 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:23.200 Summer was also making it difficult for Joseph to see 171 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:28.039 his friends, and she didn't like Chase Merritt who was 172 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:34.279 coming over to the house. So basically there were divisions 173 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:38.120 and conflict and strife going on in the family. Joseph 174 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:42.399 told his mother around Christmas time, is about two months before, 175 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:45.240 you know, month and a half before they vanished, about 176 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:50.480 the CPS investigation, which basically Summer didn't want their two 177 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:55.559 little boys to be together with Joseph's son from his 178 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:59.120 first marriage, and there were flex and accusations going back 179 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:03.840 and forth between that boy's family, you know, Joseph's ex 180 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:07.720 wife and her husband who had a criminal record, and 181 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:09.879 so there was just a lot going on, and so 182 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:14.039 the detectives looked at this pretty early on in interviewed 183 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:20.679 Joseph's son's stepfather almost right away, and he was cleared 184 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:26.080 actually pretty quickly. But this wasn't made public. They were 185 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:28.440 just kind of whispers about it, and the mcsay family 186 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:30.120 didn't want to talk about it because they were trying 187 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:33.320 to protect the privacy of the people who were accused 188 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:36.159 and who were then you know, they CPS found these 189 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:40.080 complains the complaint to be unsubstantiated anyway, but this was 190 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:42.240 this was going on, and it was an issue in 191 00:12:42.279 --> 00:12:44.600 the family and it was causing quite a bit of conflict, 192 00:12:44.679 --> 00:12:48.000 and so the detective initially thought this might have been 193 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:52.799 a reason why they left. But basically Joseph and someone 194 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:55.919 were also having some issues. He had asked his mom 195 00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:59.720 to help him find a counselor because they were they 196 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:02.039 had had sex in a year and so there were 197 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:05.639 just issues, but financially things seemed to be going okay. 198 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:10.120 His business, he made waterfalls that he sold online through 199 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:13.720 a website, and he had, in addition to Chase Merritt, 200 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:19.200 who helped manufacture these and build these waterfalls, he had 201 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:23.799 another business associate named Dan Cavanaugh, who designed the website 202 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:28.320 where they sold them. So those were the two associates 203 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:32.480 who early on noticed he was not responding to emails 204 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:36.639 and phone calls, and so Cavanaugh called the police and 205 00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:41.639 the sheriff's department. Merritt went to Joseph's mother and said, 206 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:44.639 you should call the police, but he didn't do it personally. 207 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:48.000 So early on it was the two business associates who 208 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:49.960 were the ones who called attention to the fact that 209 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:54.360 he wasn't responding, and Merritt went to the house and couldn't. 210 00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:56.519 He said, no one's there, No one's answering the phone. 211 00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:01.200 It took eleven days for Michael mcstaye to report them missing, 212 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:04.759 and then there was some debate later on when Michael 213 00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:07.039 went by the house and why and blah blah blah, 214 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:09.720 and that it became an issue at trial. But basically, 215 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:12.840 you know, it was a family going through some issues, 216 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:17.159 but financially, it seemed like things were going well because 217 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:19.279 new new projects were coming in, and that was part 218 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:21.240 of the reason why they weren't sure why they would 219 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:24.279 have just disappeared like that, because they were they had 220 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:26.799 two big projects that they were working on that were 221 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:28.679 going to pay pretty well, and so it didn't really 222 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.159 make sense for them to just leave without telling anybody 223 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:31.919 where they were going. 224 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:37.759 What were the issues that were present with Dan Cavanaugh 225 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:42.000 and with Chase Merritt in terms of leadership of the 226 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:45.320 company itself, their roles at the company itself. 227 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:51.240 Well, a year before this, before they disappeared, Joseph and 228 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:57.360 Mxedday and Dan Kevanaugh had a falling out. Cavanaugh had 229 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:05.200 discovered that Joseph was working on these more expensive custom 230 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:09.000 projects with Merritt and cutting Kavanaugh out of them, which 231 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.919 was true. They were, and they kept a separate set 232 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:16.600 of books for that, a separate online accounting system with that, 233 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:20.600 and so Kalvanaugh threatened Joseph, you know, if you don't, 234 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:22.879 you know, pay me off or cut me in or 235 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:25.679 make a deal, you know, I'm going to take your 236 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:29.279 website down and I'm going to destroy your business. So 237 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:32.480 it's in writing too. He did it in you know, 238 00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:35.519 text messages or instant messages, but they were in writing, 239 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.639 and so Joseph was scared that Calvin I was going 240 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:41.720 to follow through on those threats. So he was trying 241 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:44.159 to you know, pay him off, make him happy, and 242 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:48.559 apparently he had almost done that when they vanished. There 243 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:53.320 were some issues that came out after later about Merritt's work, 244 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:57.120 the quality of his work, and some of the issues 245 00:15:57.120 --> 00:15:59.799 that were going on with I guess there was there 246 00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:04.000 was waterfall that apparently had you know, leaked or had 247 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:07.039 holes or I don't remember exactly what the situation was, 248 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:09.639 but there were just a couple customers I guess that 249 00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:13.480 were not happy when they got their waterfalls. But according 250 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:19.200 to Joseph, the things that Joseph told his family, particularly 251 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:23.559 his father Patrick McStay he was and a friend of 252 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.519 his mcgiver macargur, which is kind of a tricky name, 253 00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:34.039 I might he said that Joseph had pretty much paid 254 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:37.559 off Kavanaugh. He was trying to expand the business with 255 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:41.960 Merit so that they could make bigger and more custom 256 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:47.919 waterfalls and expand the size of the manufacturing operation into 257 00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:51.799 it like a separate place and bring it in house. 258 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.200 So that he didn't have to deal with Kevanaugh anymore. Now, 259 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:58.879 that became a matter of quite some debate, and later 260 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:02.759 the prosecution claimed that they were trying to get rid 261 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:06.839 of that, he was trying to sideline Merit. But you know, 262 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:12.039 going back through through who said what to who, it 263 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:14.119 really doesn't appear like he was trying to get rid 264 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.200 of Merit. He was trying to get rid of Kavanaugh 265 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:19.079 because of the threats. 266 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:25.960 That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now, 267 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:30.799 let's get to the prosecution's case against Chase Merit. How 268 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:34.759 does he come to be the sole suspect in this 269 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:38.680 There's not really any physical evidence, so this is a 270 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:43.759 circumstantial evidence case. Just tell us what the prosecution's case 271 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:45.640 against Chase Merit is based on. 272 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:50.640 So the preliminary hearing, this came out and it was 273 00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:54.240 very vague and they didn't even add up the amounts, 274 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:57.480 which I had to do because the prosecution refused to 275 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:01.960 talk until after the trial. The case boiled down to 276 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:09.599 they accused Merrit of basically forging checks, writing checks and 277 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:13.279 forging checks with this online system that they were using, 278 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.920 and then deleting checks from the accounting system, so that 279 00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:23.119 you know, basically amounted to like twenty thousand dollars. And 280 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:26.799 the prosecution claimed that Joseph found out that he had 281 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:29.160 started doing this, so they had a confrontation and he 282 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:33.480 fired him, at which point Merrett got upset and decided 283 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:38.960 to kill the entire family. So that's their argument, and 284 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:45.119 they claimed even in the trial that Merrit killed them 285 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:49.839 or the murder started or happened in the house. Now, 286 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:53.519 one of my issues, which I explained in the book, 287 00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:57.200 they never found a drop of blood. In fact, that 288 00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:02.599 that's why the first detective from San Diego County couldn't 289 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:06.279 investigate the case as a homicide. According to him, because 290 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:09.960 he initially thought there was foul play. But when he 291 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:13.720 put a search warrant to the judge claiming that they 292 00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:15.640 had been murdered, the judge said, well, I need more 293 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:18.640 probable cause than this. You know, where is it. And 294 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:21.400 so because they never found a single drop of blood 295 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:25.920 or any real sign of foul play in the house, 296 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:30.359 it's very curious to me and to the defense why 297 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:34.799 the detectives from Zaan Bernardino continued to argue even at 298 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:38.200 trial that this had happened in the house. When there 299 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:43.720 was absolutely no forensic evidence to support that. Now, there 300 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:47.400 also was no blood found on any of Merit's belongings, 301 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:50.319 any of his clothes, or in his truck which they 302 00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:54.680 tracked down years later, and there was no blood. So, 303 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.519 like you said, there really was no physical evidence tying 304 00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:02.119 him to the murder at the house. The only thing 305 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:05.920 that they claim to have as physical evidence was trace 306 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:10.440 a trace of Merrit's DNA on the steering wheel of 307 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:16.079 the families Azuzu trooper, which was found at the border 308 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:19.519 in a parking lot where it was towed from. And 309 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:24.000 then during the trial, the defense's expert basically said, well, 310 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:28.359 you know, he was a possible minor contributor, but the 311 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:32.960 major contributor was Joseph McStay, and the major contributor is 312 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.640 generally the person who had the most DNA on the 313 00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:37.880 steering wheel, as in the last person who drove it. 314 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:41.000 So that didn't even really hold up in my mind. 315 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:48.359 What about the controversial topic at issue at trial was 316 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:52.519 the cell phone power expert and his calculations. 317 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:56.839 Okay, well this gets this gets a little complicated, but 318 00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:00.559 I'll see if I can boil it down. There was 319 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:03.839 a cell phone expert that the defense was supposed to call, 320 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:08.599 but one of the defense attorneys decided he didn't need 321 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:12.000 to call him because he felt like he had gotten 322 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:18.200 what he needed from the prosecution's cell phone expert, who 323 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:20.640 was an FBI agent who had all these records and 324 00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:24.200 some of which were not shared with the defense even 325 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:26.119 when they asked for them, and they kept claiming that 326 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:28.279 you have everything, when in fact, it was clear that 327 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:30.880 they didn't have everything because they were referring to records 328 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.519 that these guys didn't have, so the judge ordered them 329 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:37.559 to hand them over. But what they basically were arguing 330 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:44.079 is that those records could not place Chase Merritt at 331 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:50.720 the grave site, specifically on you know, two days after 332 00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:54.920 they disappeared, which is when the prosecution said they believed 333 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:57.680 that he buried their bodies. They also kind of hemmed 334 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:00.480 and hot and changed their story about this well ranged 335 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.519 So maybe he was going back to check to see 336 00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:07.000 if the graves were okay and that these bodies had 337 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:12.680 not come unearthed. But Merritt really wanted that expert to testify, 338 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.240 and this became an issue even with his own defense 339 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:19.799 team because the lawyer who was supposed to present this 340 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:23.480 expert changed his mind and then proceeded to develop a 341 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:28.000 neurological condition and disappeared from the trial for a good 342 00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:30.960 month or month and a half. I don't remember specifically 343 00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:34.359 how many weeks it was, but it delayed the trial significantly. 344 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:37.799 And he was the one who knew all this information 345 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.759 and had prepared this witness, and then he decided not 346 00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:44.359 to call him. So to this day, Merritt is still 347 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:46.799 holding on to this and is still angry about it, 348 00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:49.200 and is still citing it as a reason for in 349 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:53.519 effective counsel because he figured out by going through the 350 00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:58.000 records himself that that tower that was on a hill 351 00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:03.759 overlooking where those two shallow grapes were was malfunctioning and 352 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.799 that it was saying that the direction of the phone 353 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:10.839 call where the phone was, which was moving around and 354 00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:15.359 bouncing around, was actually in the opposite direction. Very complicated, 355 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:17.799 and I you know, this didn't even really get to 356 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:21.160 come before the jury. So this came out in a 357 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:25.440 sentencing hearing where the other attorney, who was the only 358 00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:29.480 one left because that one who got sick, ended up 359 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:32.079 saying I have a conflict of interest in I can't 360 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:36.400 proceed with the sentencing motions. And it was very long 361 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:39.480 and complicated. It's on the book, but the jury never 362 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:43.880 really got to hear this stuff. And frankly, it's very obtuse. 363 00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:48.319 It's it's tricky to I think, to explain to anybody, 364 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:51.000 and I think that it's it likely would have just 365 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.839 gone over their heads anyway, because it's it's you know, 366 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.960 it's it's not exciting sexy testimony. 367 00:23:58.000 --> 00:23:58.160 You know. 368 00:23:58.839 --> 00:24:01.720 I feel the same way about DNA testimony. I feel 369 00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:05.240 the same way about some of these very very technical 370 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:09.759 topics that it's just very difficult for juries to process. 371 00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:16.599 Certainly, and keeping in that theme, you right, how do 372 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:20.160 you believe this case got so messed up? 373 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:23.200 Well, it was just like a whole series of things. 374 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:26.799 It wasn't any one thing, you know, I mean, honestly, 375 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:31.680 it's just one thing after another. Merritt is a difficult 376 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:34.759 person to start with. He's never satisfied with anybody who 377 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:38.519 works for him. He switched attorneys repeatedly, like you just 378 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:41.680 fire them, you know, one after another, until the got 379 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:43.720 to the point where the judge was like, look, you 380 00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:46.559 can't have any more attorneys. You've gone through six of them, 381 00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:49.119 you know, you need to just stick with these two. 382 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:52.720 And then even at the sentencing, you know, he lost 383 00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:56.000 one of them because that one stepped off and said 384 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:58.839 I have a conflict. You know, it couldn't basically defend 385 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.119 and he wouldn't give a reason publicly, but we found 386 00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:03.519 out later he says he couldn't defend himself and his 387 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:06.079 client at the same time as his client is attacking him. 388 00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:09.079 And then he tried to fire the very last one 389 00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:11.480 too at the last minute, you know, and the judge 390 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:13.960 was like, no, this is your attorney. You got to 391 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:15.359 just stick with them. 392 00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:20.839 Was there any criticism of the initial lead detective in 393 00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:25.839 this case, Dougal, and his handling of this case from 394 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:30.319 the perspective of a missing person's case rather than finding 395 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:34.240 any information that would further it as a homicide case. 396 00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:38.240 Yeah. I mean, basically, you know, a lot of us 397 00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:41.640 were observers in general were just watching, going, well, why 398 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:44.759 is this a missing person's case? I mean, clearly there 399 00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:46.960 were some red flags, and you know, like I said, 400 00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:49.920 even he said initially he thought this was a murder 401 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:51.960