WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:02.720 Hudson River Radio dot com. 2 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:04.320 It beats listening to nothing. 3 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:09.759 Oh my goodness, it's Frank being Frank, right where the 4 00:00:09.800 --> 00:00:16.359 only way to be is Frank. Hello everyone, and welcome 5 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:20.120 to being Frank. We're the only way to be is Frank. 6 00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:22.760 I'm your host, FRANKL. Born and I'd like to thank 7 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:24.839 you for joining us on what we like to call 8 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 the Intelligent Conversation podcast, where no conversation is out of 9 00:00:29.960 --> 00:00:34.320 bounds and all points of view are welcome. Our listeners 10 00:00:34.359 --> 00:00:37.439 are familiar that we go live to tape, and I 11 00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:40.280 give you the date so you have some context and relevance. 12 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:43.920 It is the second of September in twenty twenty five. 13 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:46.560 As we've been on the air for well more than 14 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:49.960 a year now in over one hundred and eighty programs. 15 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:53.840 As another anniversary of the tragedy that is nine to 16 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:57.119 eleven approach of us, most of us take at least 17 00:00:57.159 --> 00:01:00.600 a few moments to reflect on that fateful day, on 18 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:03.240 those lost, and how it affected each and every one 19 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:06.359 of us in a unique but also in shared ways. 20 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:09.280 For those of us who had some role in the 21 00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:13.159 relief efforts at Ground Zero, this is especially true. We 22 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:15.640 all shared a sense of purpose and grief, but each 23 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:19.640 traveled their own personal paths to be there too. This 24 00:01:19.799 --> 00:01:22.439 is particularly true of our guest in this edition of 25 00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:25.680 Being Frank. He's a survivor of that day and so 26 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:29.239 much more. He turned his life around after surviving an 27 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:33.920 emotionally and physically traumatic upbringing in Queen's and Brooklyn. He 28 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:36.920 overcame it all to become a poort authority polief's officer 29 00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:40.159 who served for twenty six years, who was a first 30 00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:42.879 responder on nine to eleven, and he wrote a book, 31 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:47.599 Columbus Day, about overcoming challenges and finding a way to 32 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:50.959 help others. It's my pleasure to welcome to Being Frank 33 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:55.040 for some intelligent conversation, mister Mitch rosen Rich, Thank you 34 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:56.359 so much for joining us here. 35 00:01:56.920 --> 00:01:59.200 Hi, Frank, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. 36 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:03.319 Now, Mitch, you have a long and complex story, a 37 00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:05.799 lot to unpack, so let's get to it little by 38 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:08.680 little and we'll kind of work up the timeline, if 39 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:11.159 you will, to get you where you are today. The 40 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:14.199 book and your experiences at nine to eleven something that 41 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:16.919 we both share. But before that, tell us a bit 42 00:02:16.919 --> 00:02:20.759 about your early life, like where were you from? Where 43 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:23.120 did you grow up things of kind of nuts and bolts, 44 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:23.759 things like that. 45 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:29.080 Sure, well, my mother and father they ended up moving 46 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:32.719 to a new house in Howard Beach, Queens in somewhere 47 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:36.680 in nineteen sixty five. So I lived in Howard Beach, Queens, 48 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:43.240 and ultimately, as I approached the teenager years, I ended 49 00:02:43.319 --> 00:02:47.439 up moving up to Rockland County, and ultimately I moved 50 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:52.199 back to the city, and then I returned to Rockland County. 51 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:57.520 So I've been Brooklyn, Queens, Rockland and sort of back 52 00:02:57.520 --> 00:02:58.039 and forth. 53 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:02.199 Yeah, can tell you, Mitch, both you and I it's 54 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:07.199 were difficult to hide our accents of where we come from. 55 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:10.599 I'm sure we have. We do have listeners from all over. 56 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:14.439 I'm sure they could. They can hear where we're from. 57 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:19.719 My wife, I'm sorry, my wife gets a kick out 58 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:21.599 of it when I tell her to close the window, 59 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:22.199 you know. 60 00:03:22.879 --> 00:03:28.199 So I just I just came back from from Italy 61 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:30.639 Sicily as a matter of fact. At one point, and 62 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:33.719 I speak passable Italian, and I was asking where's the bathroom, 63 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:36.680 Dove Olbano, But with my New York accent, they looked 64 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:38.159 at me like I was from Bars and I know 65 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:41.120 what had the right words, just to sound quite right. 66 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:45.520 Let's get back to our conversation. Now, let's talk a 67 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:49.039 little bit about your family dynamic. Obviously, that's kind of 68 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:52.080 where you grew up, but how you grew up obviously 69 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:54.319 is a huge part of the story. So talk a 70 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:57.439 little bit about your parents their dynamic and how it 71 00:03:57.479 --> 00:03:58.879 affected you as a young man. 72 00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:03.680 Sure, boy, So I will tell you. In nineteen sixty 73 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:07.319 five when we did relocate the Howard Beach, Queens, this 74 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:10.360 was a new construction home and a beautiful new community. 75 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:14.879 And at the time, my father was working in a restaurant. 76 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:21.600 He was a counterman who subsequently started managing a restaurant 77 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:24.680 or a coffee shop, if you will. My mother was 78 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:31.240 a stay at home mom. She didn't drive, and she 79 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:38.680 had some issues. She had some issues pretending to things, 80 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:44.480 psychiatric issues that it was causing her difficulty to deal 81 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:50.000 deal with me as a young child. She had depression. 82 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:53.720 She would spend the majority of the day in bed, 83 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:58.759 not to leave the bed until noon, and I was 84 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:00.680 left to pretty much fend myself. 85 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:04.240 Did you have any siblings, Mitch, brothers or sisters. You're 86 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:05.920 an old child, so tell us about that. 87 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:10.160 Well, So this was when I was seven when I 88 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:15.439 started to experience a difficulty with my mom. And at 89 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:18.120 the time, which I'm sure made it a little harder 90 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:20.639 for her was she had a two year old at 91 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:24.000 the time as well, So my brother is five years 92 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:27.279 younger than me, and it was hard enough for her 93 00:05:27.319 --> 00:05:29.920 to deal with me, but now when my brother came along, 94 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:32.199 it took her over the top. 95 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:36.319 There's too much now, tell us a little bit about 96 00:05:36.519 --> 00:05:41.680 your father's role then too. In our pre conversations and 97 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:45.639 your writings, you mentioned mostly your mother, So tell us 98 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:48.199 a little bit about the dynamic between your mother and father, 99 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:52.519 because they think that's important in the overall development where 100 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:55.480 you actually wound up both literally and emotionally. 101 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:59.600 Right right, Well, my father was the type of guy 102 00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:03.639 you being. He operated one of these coffee shops in Manhattan. 103 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:05.800 He was up and out of the house at six 104 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:08.199 in the morning. He didn't get home till late in 105 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:14.079 the afternoon. But it was all about him. He really 106 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:19.600 didn't do many family functions with me and my mother, 107 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:23.439 And I think it could also be because he was 108 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:28.600 very clear and he understood perfectly about how his wife 109 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:32.879 was having issues, and I think he felt it was 110 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:36.120 better off not to go anywhere, not to leave the house. 111 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:40.639 Maybe it was a sense of embarrassment. She did dress 112 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:46.639 very strangely, her makeup application was very unusual, and even 113 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:49.720 when he drove her to the market weekly to get food, 114 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:53.800 he remained in the car. It was very uncomfortable for 115 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:57.759 him to interact with her, but this is what he chose, 116 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:02.839 and ultimately he was going to remain with her even 117 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:04.319 under these circumstances. 118 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:10.560 But Mitch, then this behavior manifested itself on you in very, 119 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:15.000 very difficult ways. Explain a little bit about that. And 120 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:18.680 you know, you mentioned that you're seven years old and 121 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:22.160 you seem to be at this point pretty much alone 122 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:25.040 in your life. But talk a little bit about how 123 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:30.560 some of your mom's behavior manifested and affected you well. 124 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:34.319 As I was saying, with all the additional stress from 125 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:39.920 my younger brother, now she was deciding or she ultimately 126 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:44.160 realized she could not handle the two of us, And 127 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:47.839 she did ultimately come up with a plan to get 128 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:50.639 rid of me, to have me removed from the house. 129 00:07:51.399 --> 00:07:54.800 And what the way she was going to do that was. 130 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:59.680 She mentioned to my father that I was misbehaving in school. 131 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:04.759 I was hard to deal with and I did have 132 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:08.519 attention deficit disorder, like one out of every three kids have. 133 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:11.680 I couldn't sit still in school, but still there was 134 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:15.519 nothing wrong other than the fact that I was hyperactive. 135 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:20.319 And ultimately she would create stories to tell my father 136 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:23.360 to make it seem as if there was more going 137 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:27.680 on that meets the eye, and she ultimately suggested to 138 00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:32.919 him that they take me for a psychiatric evaluation, and 139 00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:36.519 this was the beginning of her plan to get rid 140 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:41.919 of me. Her plan was to discuss with the doctor 141 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:45.039 that they were taking me to that I had a 142 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:49.120 multitude of issues, have him write up a report that 143 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:52.240 would make her seem correct, and he would agree with her, 144 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:55.480 and then they would send me off to some institution 145 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:59.840 for children. But she was hit between the eyes with 146 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:03.519 surprise from this doctor because he did not do what 147 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:06.600 she planned on having him do, and that was another 148 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:12.240 story altogether. Ultimately, they brought me to this guy for 149 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:17.480 a psychiatric evaluation, and they both accompanied me to the office, 150 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:22.240 and you know, everything went very well, and ultimately they 151 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:25.240 brought he brought my mother and father into the examining 152 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:27.480 room and said, well, let me explain to you what 153 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:33.159 I found. So he told my parents that not only 154 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:38.000 did I have an above average IQ, but there was 155 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:42.519 no problems and my mother literally hit not literally, she 156 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:46.799 hit the ceiling in She was screaming and yelling, and 157 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:50.120 she was a little surprised that this doctor didn't agree 158 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:54.840 with her, and ultimately the doctor suggested to my father, 159 00:09:55.360 --> 00:10:01.360 maybe your wife should be seeking some mental health and medication. 160 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:06.279 So this was the beginning of her plan to get 161 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:08.960 me institutionalized and out of the house. 162 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:12.799 Mitch, how did that make you feel? I mean, this 163 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:16.039 is your mother, You're seven years old, and I mean 164 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:20.559 not only rejection, but in the cruelest way. I mean literally, 165 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:26.000 once you gone and institutionalized, I can't imagine how a 166 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:30.200 young person processes that. If you can, and it's so 167 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:32.960 important in your story of recovery, and we are going 168 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:36.960 to get to that, but first, the pain that you 169 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:39.720 must have felt. Is there any way you can describe 170 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:40.320 that to us? 171 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:45.399 Well, I guess the good thing is when you're seven, 172 00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:50.879 you don't really understand exactly what's going on. You're just 173 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:54.879 rolling with the punches. You're a child, and the mother 174 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:57.000 tells you to do that, You do that. Your father 175 00:10:57.080 --> 00:10:59.679 tells you to go there, You go there, and it's 176 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:04.480 you don't really think at that point that your parents 177 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:08.320 mean you any ill will, And it's impossible as a 178 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:14.080 child to think that unless you're obviously hitting you. And 179 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.080 then you can turn around and say, wow, why are 180 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:21.840 they doing that? But this was all psychological damage at 181 00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:25.200 the age of seven. You don't realize what's going on 182 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:28.000 until you mature, and you relived that. 183 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:34.960 So now you've come back from the doctor, but your 184 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:39.200 mom is relentless with this plan. She's going to find 185 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:44.240 a way continue. How did she do that? What came next? Well, 186 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:45.480 extraordinary story. 187 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:50.320 Yeah, So the strange thing is she wasn't done with that, 188 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:55.759 and now what she did was she started making phone 189 00:11:55.799 --> 00:12:04.000 calls and she had me evaluated by another facility. And 190 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:06.480 this time it was a type of place where they 191 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:10.279 kept you overnight and you stayed there for you know, 192 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:16.720 for this evaluation. But they were linked to a child institution. 193 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:22.000 And I think my mother and father must have I 194 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:25.960 don't want to say, paid my way in, but they 195 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:29.240 did what they had to do to get this guy 196 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:32.559 that was doing the evaluation to agree with them. And 197 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:36.720 you know, it was just income for his facility, So 198 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:39.399 why would he turn me away? It's like somebody going 199 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:41.720 to buy a car and you say, ayah, you want 200 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:43.639 it in red, I only have blues. I'm not going 201 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:46.519 to sell it to you. So they gave my parents 202 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:48.960 exactly what they wanted, and I don't know what they 203 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:52.200 paid to have him write up the report the way 204 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:56.000 it had to be written up. But from that point 205 00:12:56.039 --> 00:13:02.679 on I was directed from this facility for an evaluation 206 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:06.559 right to the institution where my father drove me up 207 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:12.120 to the front doors. The place was in Brooklyn, in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, 208 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:17.240 in a slum community where there was alcoholics sleeping on 209 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:21.279 the on the floor and criminal activity on every corner. 210 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:25.759 And he pulled up, dumped me off, and handed me 211 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:29.279 over to somebody, and off he went. And this was 212 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:33.559 the place that I was abandoned to miss. 213 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:38.159 It's inconceivable, did you have? You had no advocate, not 214 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:42.360 a grandparent, not a teacher, No one would speak up 215 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:42.639 for you. 216 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.639 Well, that's a very good point, and I will tell 217 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:52.840 you that. Well, my grandmother, my mother's mother, was definitely 218 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:56.240 an advocate, and she did not agree with what my 219 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:00.919 mother was doing. But my mother didn't tell her her 220 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:06.320 whole plan. And after she told my grandmother what she 221 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:11.559 had done, it was too late. And my grandmother was 222 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:15.639 a little bit surprised and disappointed. And my grandmother knows 223 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:20.720 that her daughter was suffering with these issues, but she 224 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:23.639 didn't think it was going to result in me being 225 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:27.159 thrown out of the house, you know, So whatever she 226 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:30.159 found out was certainly a little bit too late, you know, 227 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:34.360 to help me. And as far as teachers go, they're 228 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:37.120 the ones that recorded the fact that I was hyperactive. 229 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:41.639 But back then hyperactivity, nobody even understood what it meant, 230 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:44.960 you know, and attention deficit disorder. I mean, all of 231 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:47.919 these things are very common, but back then, in the 232 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.080 early sixties, nobody knew what this was and what it 233 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:55.840 would lead to. And if anything, if you remember back 234 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:58.840 in the sixties, if you had a family member that 235 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:03.039 had any type of saf chiatric issues or problems, you 236 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:07.200 kept them hidden behind closed doors. You would not go 237 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:09.600 out and say, oh, I'm gonna go see a therapist. 238 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:14.120 Oh yeah, this afternoon. You know. Everybody was embarrassed to 239 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:16.879 even state that they were going to see a therapist. 240 00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:20.720 This was an embarrassment to the family, so they kept 241 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:22.799 you locked behind closed doors. Back there. 242 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:28.399 If you can, again, these are difficult questions to ask, 243 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:32.039 so I'm sure They're very difficult to answer, and I 244 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:36.600 can tell there is emotion in your responses. Again, the 245 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:40.240 big question had you're seven years old, if your father 246 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:45.559 drives off, can you remember that initial feeling of what 247 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:46.720 was that like? 248 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:52.759 Well, I knew at that point that this was abandonment, 249 00:15:53.519 --> 00:16:02.919 and as a child, I cried, you know, uncontrollably, because 250 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:09.240 when he had picked me up from this facility that 251 00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:11.039 did the study on me, I thought I was going 252 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:18.279 home and ultimately never made it. And the guy he 253 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.679 dropped me off at at the front door of this institution. 254 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:25.679 This was the mid sixties. The guy had shoulder length 255 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:31.600 brown hair, with a flowered shirt and sandals, and this 256 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:35.159 was the beginning of the era of the hippies. And 257 00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:39.279 this was now my new guardian. And the woman that 258 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.639 worked there with him was a hippie as well. And 259 00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:46.840 I remember, you know, when I walked into this building 260 00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:50.159 with him, and you know, he had his hand around 261 00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:53.639 my shoulder trying to welcome me. I just remember looking 262 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:57.559 at him and seeing that everything was very strange and 263 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:00.000 unusual about the way he dressed and about the way 264 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:02.759 he looked. And I wasn't when I grew up in 265 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.240 when I was in Queen's. I didn't come in contact 266 00:17:05.319 --> 00:17:09.759 with these young guys that were like dressed like this, 267 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:12.960 so it was just a little bit different for me. 268 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:16.960 But that sort of distracted me from what I was 269 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:24.480 actually going through because this institution was three floors high. 270 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:29.799 The main floor was the dining area and other facilities, 271 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:33.119 the laundry facilities, and on the second floor was the 272 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:36.079 girl's wing, and on the third floor was the boys wing. 273 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:41.599 And they had about fifty to sixty children on each floor, 274 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:47.640 so I was one of fifty sixty, and we lived 275 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:52.319 in these little rooms where they had three cots in 276 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:56.319 each room, and the mattress was three inches thick and 277 00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:59.720 the springs would pop and make noise as soon as 278 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:02.359 he got into the bed. But I just remember my 279 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:05.799 first day when they showed me to my room. I 280 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:09.799 remember seeing the mattress was covered in urine stains, and 281 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:13.319 this was from the previous child that was there. And 282 00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:16.079 I'm saying to myself, I just left the beautiful house 283 00:18:16.119 --> 00:18:20.640 and now I'm sleeping in another child's urine, and I 284 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:23.200 don't know what's going to happen, you know. 285 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:29.359 I can't. I can't imagine processing all of that. I 286 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:33.240 can tell even you know, even today, it's difficult for 287 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:37.319 you to process it. Now, what was in it? You know, 288 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:40.960 that's obviously the urine stains on your mattress is an 289 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:47.559 incredibly indelible mark. What else? What else sticks in your 290 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:51.279 mind of some of the impressions of that place that 291 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.039 really stay with you today. 292 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:58.920 Well, I will tell you that food was always an issue. 293 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:02.799 They had a big kitchen, they had a gentleman that 294 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:07.519 worked in the kitchen. But the food they served was very, 295 00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:13.920 very mediocre, very minimal as far as quality. I remembered 296 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:17.960 them serving scrambled eggs in the morning and it was 297 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:22.200 served in a big bucket with a ladle, which ladled 298 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:25.440 out the water because they weren't real eggs. They were 299 00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:32.160 it was they were mixed. It was powdered eggs, and yeah, 300 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:36.720 so it was water draining from this and the bread 301 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:43.160 was old and you know, moldy, and so after experiencing 302 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:49.359 that type of food issues on a regular basis, you know, 303 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:52.799 you become accustomed to it. But after I was there 304 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.519 for about six months, I was dropping weight drastically. I 305 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.680 looked like a Holocaust victim after my first year there. 306 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:06.279 And not only was the food there questionable, but there 307 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:13.119 was absolutely zero education provided the kids there. They were 308 00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:18.079 supervised by counselors and they were just hoping that you 309 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:20.440 wouldn't beat each other up to the point where you 310 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:24.119 would end up in the hospital. But they really didn't 311 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:27.920 care about educating you. It wasn't in the grand scheme 312 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:31.319 of things. It was just what's happening on that day. 313 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.400 He didn't hurt himself by the end of the day, 314 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:38.839 and he's okay. And so there was a lot of bullying. 315 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.039 There was a lot of beating, a lot of punishments. 316 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:44.279 You know, if you said it did anything that would 317 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:49.680 not be acceptable, you know, you will punish. And this 318 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:51.680 is the way it went for three and a half years. 319 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:55.359 And the people that you befriended there you had to 320 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:57.880 be very careful. You had to be very careful. Although 321 00:20:57.880 --> 00:20:59.960 they were your age, there were eight, nine and ten 322 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:03.599 years old. They all came from different backgrounds, and they 323 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:08.559 all had their own little devious plans to try to survive. 324 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.440 And I mean, this sounds like it's right out of 325 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:17.920 Charles Dickenson. Really we're talking about, you know, nineteenth early 326 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:22.119 nineteenth century England. The way you're describing the place, I mean, 327 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:25.039 that's extraordinary. And how long were you there? 328 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:33.759 I was there from nineteen sixty six to sixteen, about 329 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:38.400 three and a half years, sixty nine close to seventy. 330 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:44.000 And it was just just the interactions with the people there, 331 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:48.160 and as I said, the daily activities, and I remember 332 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:50.880 there was just one thing, and again you would never 333 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:54.599 anticipate this being a problem, but everybody had their own 334 00:21:54.759 --> 00:21:58.279 draw in a cabinet where they would keep their socks 335 00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:03.000 and their underwear guneral clothing. And I remember that after 336 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:06.359 I moved in there, I had a dozen pair of 337 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:10.440 underwear and everything was fine, and then as the days 338 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:15.640 went by, they disappeared. Eventually, after the first month or so, 339 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:18.759 I had one pair of underwear left, and it was 340 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:23.480 like somebody was stealing my underwear. And I had my 341 00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:27.079 initials carved into the back of the underwear. And I 342 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:29.960 remember when my father took me on my first visit, 343 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:33.279 which was probably three or four months after being admitted there, 344 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:36.440 he ultimately says to me, is there anything you need? 345 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:39.559 And I underwear, you know, And he would take me 346 00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:42.160 to this five and dime and we bought underwear and 347 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:45.960 I put my initials on it, and I couldn't understand 348 00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:48.359 what was happening to it, and it got to the 349 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.480 point where everything was stolen and I was wearing bathing 350 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:57.559 suits under my pants because my underwear was stolen. Until 351 00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:02.000 one day I see this kid bend over and in 352 00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:06.240 the back of his underwear was my initials and I 353 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:10.160 beat him to a pulp, you know, and I was 354 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:14.200 able to get my other way back, you know. And 355 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:19.720 so it's like, this was, uh, this was something you 356 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:20.559 know at the time. 357 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:25.160 Let's talk about coping, and again, Mitch, take take some time. 358 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:28.079 I know it's very emotional, and we really appreciate you sharing, 359 00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:30.839 and I want people to know we're going to get 360 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:33.640 to the point of recovery. This is not all about pain. 361 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:36.200 This is about recovery. But we need to get to 362 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.880 that point first, and part of that is coping. We 363 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:47.000 all have coping message methods. Excuse me, especially in difficult situations. 364 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:50.680 What were some of your coping mechanisms to deal with 365 00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:52.599 life in this insane place? 366 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:56.839 Yeah, well, I'm glad you mentioned that, because I sort 367 00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:00.200 of skipped that along the way. I will tell you 368 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:04.720 before I ended up going to this institution, I found 369 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:08.920 on one Sunday, my father, who didn't work on Saturday, 370 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:12.119 and Sunday he was in the basement and he was 371 00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:16.359 painting oil paints on canvas, and I went down there 372 00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:18.680 because I heard the noise and I was watching him, 373 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:22.400 and ultimately I was very impressed with what he was creating. 374 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:26.160 And he asked me if I was interested, if I 375 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:28.720 wanted to do it, try it, and I said sure. 376 00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:32.319 So he brought me some paints and brushes and the 377 00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:34.720 next few days I sat there and I tried to 378 00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:38.920 paint and create things, and it really just wasn't working 379 00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:42.200 for me. I didn't feel comfortable with it. And then 380 00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:45.519 one day, it was probably the following weekend, after I 381 00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:49.279 gave up on the acrylic on the oil paints, he 382 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:53.119 brought home the Sunday New York Times and back then 383 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:56.559 in the Sunday New York Times for one year in 384 00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.279 nineteen sixty five or in nineteen sixty six, I had 385 00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:03.680 a color by number on the inside cover of the 386 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:07.000 New York Times, and he gave that to me along 387 00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:09.279 with some pencils, and he said, try to see if 388 00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:12.400 you like this. And I ended up working with that 389 00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:15.799 and I loved it, and he bought me more pencils 390 00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:20.160 and books to write in and lo and Behold. As 391 00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:25.319 time went by, I became more obsessed with these drawings, 392 00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:28.720 and they were very therapeutic for me. I would sit 393 00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:32.799 for hours and forget about everything that was happening and 394 00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:36.400 just sit down and draw. And I continued to do 395 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.200 this even three and a half years after I got 396 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:42.039 out of that institution. I just keep doing it, and 397 00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:44.200 it was very therapeutic and I enjoyed it. 398 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:47.200 And we're going to talk about it. You still do it. 399 00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:50.920 It has some relevance to our nine to eleven conversation. 400 00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:54.839 We'll get to that, but let's talk about your progression. 401 00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:58.519