WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:27.519 Five h hh. 2 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:39.119 Okay, hello and welcome to Minor Compositions. For for this 3 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:44.240 this week's conversation, we have one of our first uh 4 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:49.359 repeat visitors, so thank you for coming along again again, Ferdie. 5 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:51.799 Hey, yeah, thanks for having me again. 6 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:56.679 Yeah yeah, And this is a good excuse because we're 7 00:00:56.719 --> 00:00:59.399 getting together to sort of have a chat about your 8 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:02.759 al Can we say the book the book is new 9 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:04.400 for is it new for like a year or for 10 00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:06.319 our six months or for two years? 11 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:11.200 Or I think a year maybe, because yeah, I've been 12 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:16.079 doing so many book talks also in person that it 13 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:21.640 felt so long already. But actually, yeah, I think still 14 00:01:21.640 --> 00:01:25.680 there're so not that many people that who knows it 15 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:29.319 the book, so I think it's we can still consider 16 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:29.760 it new. 17 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:32.879 Okay, yeah, So so say we're having a chat, but 18 00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:37.239 but Ferdie's new and quite excellent book and during otherwise 19 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:41.040 Muslim queer and trans transport booking Indonesia. And I will 20 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:43.879 tell you upfront that that that that my knowledge of 21 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:47.959 queer politics or transpolitics Indiesia is quite limited, but I 22 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:51.120 was I found your book super interesting and really really fascinating, 23 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:53.879 and in part because it's about the world that I 24 00:01:53.959 --> 00:01:58.680 know very little of. But yet as someone who was 25 00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:01.640 raised Catholic and sort of knows a thing or two 26 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:05.200 about feelings of guilt and how religious world structures your 27 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:07.480 your affects, It's like, there are things here which I 28 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:11.680 recognize even though I don't know the world, oh superest. 29 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:18.080 So maybe as sort of a starting point, let's say, 30 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:20.280 how would you introduce this book to people who have 31 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:24.240 it intelligip yet? Like what are you? What are you 32 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:31.319 exploring here? Such the obvious from the super obvious. 33 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:33.560 Like what do you? What do you? 34 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:34.919 What do you play with your perdie? 35 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:40.120 Yeah? I think it's important that I describe the book 36 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:45.240 as like an ethnographic book, so it is basically a 37 00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:49.240 book that looks at different I mean, everyday forms of 38 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:52.639 life rather than you know, I'm not a political scientist, 39 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:59.879 I'm not a sociologist. My work is always focusing on 40 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:05.280 working with people, and this is basically what anthropology is about. 41 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:13.520 And sorry research base, but my research look at how Muslim, 42 00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:22.400 queer and trans people live in Indonesia, and this intersection between 43 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:28.719 muslimness and queerness or transness is a particular focal point 44 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:38.159 that I'm looking at because, in like popular imagination, the 45 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:44.680 relationship between queerness and transness to Islam has always seen 46 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:54.319 something as irreconcilable, as something that is difficult to Yeah, 47 00:03:54.360 --> 00:04:01.280 it's incompatible. And so the book actually starts from the 48 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:08.199 very question on how do people sustain meaningful life when 49 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:13.120 social and religious and political conditions around them do not 50 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:17.879 fully accept them or or a firm of who they are. 51 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:22.800 Basically mm hmm, yeah, I. 52 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:28.399 Think there's something interesting there in you mentioning being ethnographic now, 53 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:31.480 because I want to go into people about photography. But 54 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:35.160 in the sense about that writing a book, getographically means 55 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:37.319 not just showing up doing a few quick interviews or 56 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:40.040 have to get chat with people people. It requires in 57 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:44.600 depth understanding of how world making happens in this place, 58 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:49.600 how culture operates, how how it regards what's more in 59 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:52.439 merci level and detail, then you get in most kinds 60 00:04:52.439 --> 00:04:52.879 of writing. 61 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:58.839 Yeah, I mean, I mean people call it like participant 62 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:03.519 observation basically, so you don't just participate or just observe, 63 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:07.959 but you also participate in the everyday life, right, every 64 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:14.360 day flow of life. But as a kind of like 65 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:18.360 also as a background actually, because I myself coming from 66 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:22.600 more or less similar background a Muslim queer myself. I'm 67 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:26.199 from Indonesia, So a lot of the questions that were 68 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:33.160 strayce as the book starting point is actually also for 69 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:39.519 me biographical questions because this very question of I mean, 70 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.839 in a simple word, people whether they're Muslims, whether they're 71 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:49.600 non Muslims, or they're you know, Indonesian or not. When 72 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:53.399 mostly at that time, at least when I start my 73 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:59.079 research around fifteen years ago, the question that people ask 74 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:01.839 is like when when they heard then I'm a Muslim 75 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:08.360 and I'm queer, as this kind of stereotypical or stereotyping 76 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:11.879 question asking like, oh, how is that for you? Like 77 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:16.519 aren't you aren't you experiencing some kind of conflict or 78 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:22.000 inner conflict? And this very question, rather than trying to 79 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:27.240 answer it myself, is basically the question that I go 80 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:31.600 around with with when I meet the the protagonists or 81 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:37.079 the interlocutors in my filmwork. Basically of course, and not 82 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:40.759 in a way like not as a kind of like 83 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:49.959 a horrible question about this conflict, but actually I observe 84 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:54.360 or I participate in a situation where this conflicting situation 85 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:57.160 came up, and basically how they deal with it. 86 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:01.920 Yeah, And that's probably interesting part of if anything, I 87 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:04.639 think that that that that being participant kind of helps 88 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:07.120 you and that the people you're talking with a sense 89 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:08.720 that that this is this is for you isn't some 90 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:11.560 sort of abstract question but somebody you also have had 91 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:15.199 to wrestle with yourself about this completing you know, relationship 92 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:19.399 between religious values and sort of personal ethics and and 93 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:21.319 how these two fit together and how you live. 94 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:30.199 Yeah, because yes and no, because I think one one 95 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:36.839 additional dimension that that also actually it's become actually a 96 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:41.560 key Like my main approach uh is what I call 97 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:48.439 as effective ethnography. So it's very much looking at like 98 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:55.040 the emotional life, the feel like the various types of feelings, 99 00:07:55.319 --> 00:08:00.639 atmospheres that that that emerge in their life in the 100 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:05.160 context of Muslim square and transporlt making which actually allows 101 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:11.720 me hm how to say it. Like in Indonesia we 102 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:16.040 have this term when when people you don't have to 103 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.959 be close friends, but sometimes when people met and they 104 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:24.680 have I don't know, some kind of problems which is 105 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:31.800 more like caused by emotional conflict and so on, Uh, 106 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:35.679 they would kind of pour out their hearts out. This 107 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:38.600 is the term like tudahan Hatti to pour out on 108 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:45.399 one's heart basically is it is a way of interacting, 109 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:51.320 interacting usually in intimate settings. But this is also something 110 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:55.840 that I adopt as as a way of talking with 111 00:08:56.200 --> 00:09:01.399 the interlocutors in a way that I don't interview it. 112 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:06.080 I don't prepare, you know, questions in advance and then 113 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:09.759 go to see them and ask questions, but rather just 114 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:18.480 fully becoming a listener basically, Yeah, and by listener meaning 115 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:26.799 like to really listen to. And somehow there is a need, 116 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:32.639 a dire need in a community to be able to 117 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:36.600 be heard or to be listened to. And some of 118 00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:41.360 the stories, although maybe to say it flows naturally is 119 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:47.159 a bit simplifying, I would rather say that there's enough 120 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:51.279 closeness between us or report between us that allows that 121 00:09:51.559 --> 00:09:56.440 makes them comfortable enough to tell basically their life stories, 122 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:59.879 their what what, what they're thinking, what they're dealing with, 123 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:05.799 using this so called churanhatty to an extent that sometimes, 124 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:10.879 because I work with different communities, they would tap my 125 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:14.399 shoulder and call me, hey, what are you doing? Are 126 00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:18.159 you not doing anything? Can we talk? You know, like 127 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.279 let's let's have a tough because the our last stuff 128 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:25.200 has been very nice and and and yeah, so it's 129 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:28.639 becoming almost like for my part it is like a 130 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:32.480 service to listen to their stories. But also the tricky 131 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:35.279 partook because also this is part of research, and of 132 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:37.240 course they are all aware about this. 133 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:42.279 Might be an aspect and maybe maybe sort of speculating 134 00:10:42.360 --> 00:10:45.679 here where they start to treat you as like that 135 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:50.039 like nice slightly older brother that people wish they had, 136 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:51.720 that they could talk to, that they didn't have in 137 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:54.360 their own families, or like just you. 138 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:58.960 Know, mm hmmm, I mean, of course not everyone. Yeah, 139 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:01.919 I went, I think out of I met quite a 140 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:05.519 few people in during my film work. I'll explain later 141 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:09.440 in which which locations, but uh, and some of them 142 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:11.840 are new locations. One of them is actually a new 143 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:14.960 location and the other two is uh. The new location 144 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:20.320 is in ache Uh, which is in the northernmost part 145 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:24.440 of Sumatra and Indonesia, and then in Jio Jakarta where 146 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:30.039 actually this is my chosen hometown, and in Jakarta, which 147 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:34.639 is the city where I'm born or where I grew up. 148 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:41.279 But still even of course, especially in ache is not 149 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:46.360 easy to to because the situation there is already very 150 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:52.480 difficult for sexual and gender minorities because they have their 151 00:11:52.559 --> 00:12:00.080 own legal system since a while since Yeah, there's a 152 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:04.240 long history of conflict and natural disaster the tsunami that 153 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:08.360 changed the whole landscape there, including legal ones, and they 154 00:12:08.919 --> 00:12:16.960 implementary allow basically since two thousand first in first being 155 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:19.519 discussed two thousand and five, and I think being installed 156 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:23.279 in thousand and six, which make it very difficult for 157 00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:27.000 for for sexual and general minorities even just to be 158 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:31.720 to be just to be there basically, So when I 159 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.360 came there with my research topic, with my research idea, 160 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:38.600 of course not a lot of people are welcoming to that. 161 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:45.320 But when they do, then the relationship is kind of 162 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:49.639 what translates into the book basically. But when when you 163 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:53.519 said it, whether they they they treat me as a 164 00:12:53.600 --> 00:13:02.320 brother or a sibling, I guess it's more about they 165 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:08.960 don't have anyone to really listen to. Like of course 166 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:12.120 they have friends and maybe families and even partners, but 167 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:17.120 sometimes actually the problems that they're having is actually with 168 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:22.159 the people who are around them and with me, I guess, 169 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:27.559 because I'm also a stranger in some way, but but 170 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:32.360 a weird stranger who goes to all the way, you know, 171 00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:35.200 to to to listen to their stories. For them is 172 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:39.480 also something. Yeah, they also make take use of it. 173 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:43.720 They make then they try to gain as much from 174 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:45.440 from the encounter as I do. 175 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:48.440 I mean, we're a stranger, but we're who also shows 176 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:52.639 up in the book on people's motorcycles. At times or 177 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:56.639 like late nights, discussions at the salon or at the 178 00:13:57.200 --> 00:13:59.879 at the coffee shop or other places places feel more 179 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:00.720 part of the world. 180 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:03.519 Yeah, exactly, right, when you go to a bar and 181 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:06.799 you're speaking to strangers and then you're more open and 182 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:10.559 you're more generous in your stories rather than when you're 183 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:15.200 talking with people around you. Yeah, are you're intimate with 184 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:18.960 mm hmmm. So yeah, I wouldn't even I wouldn't even 185 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:22.120 frame my relationship with them as friends or you know, 186 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:25.320 or siblings or brothers, because that's what I am. I'm 187 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:28.519 there as a researcher, and I think most of them 188 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:38.039 fully realize of my what my role is. Yeah, mhm. 189 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:40.559 We talked about a little bit about the title. I 190 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:45.399 think it's quite evocative idea about and and during otherwise, 191 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:49.519 so it's not it's not necessarily very heroic sounding, but 192 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:52.120 that's not the point. It's almost like finding ways to 193 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:57.559 almost like get on despite great adversity or how how 194 00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:58.919 do you how do you? How do you think about it? 195 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:00.399 I'm like, what is it come from? 196 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:00.639 For you? 197 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:06.200 From different places, but like from for for the more 198 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:12.440 like conceptual I as. I was inspired by the works 199 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:19.600 of Povinelli about late liberalism and endurance, also the work 200 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:23.600 of abdu ma Ale Simone, who talks about improvised life 201 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:31.679 and how in the urban global South, endurance has become 202 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:36.960 a way of not only surviving but also kind of 203 00:15:38.200 --> 00:15:46.000 tapping into unlived or unrealized potential potentialities, right, because there's 204 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:50.519 a waiting involved there, but also there is some gain 205 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:56.039 in the process of this enduring or waiting for something 206 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:01.519 to happen, and only it is on the other hand, 207 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:05.519 for for the otherwise. Actually, I'm inspired by the work 208 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:14.320 of Ashan Crawley, who with black study researcher scholars whose 209 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:23.039 work was or is about for their particular term is 210 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:31.799 from his book Black Pantacostal Breath, about the the breathing 211 00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.440 as a space of possibility, right, and then he defines 212 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:42.320 otherwise there as something that this multiple possibilities that already 213 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:47.480 exists in our lives is just not being tapped into, 214 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:52.799 or it's not just seen as possibilities as such. And 215 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:55.919 this reminds me all the way go to this whole 216 00:16:56.039 --> 00:17:02.639 form of pre pre prefigurative politics and how basically work 217 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:08.839 with what is around us when we're thinking about, you know, change, 218 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:13.920 when we're thinking about transformation, we're not starting from this 219 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:19.200 kind of fixed destination, but rather than working with the 220 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:23.480 relationship that we have, the materialities that that that that 221 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:28.680 is sometimes become resources, but sometimes becomes a challenge. 222 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:33.319 Right, So let me see if I if I understand 223 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:37.519 saying the important thing here is not here's a narrow 224 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:41.000 nel salon. It's almost like, what does this nail salon 225 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:46.440 allow in terms of world making? How it operates means 226 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:50.240 material support or a safe a safe space of refuge 227 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:53.279 or of course of friendship. It's more like what it 228 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:55.599 does for the people there, rather than what it is. 229 00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:59.440 Yeah, yeah, I mean this is a hair salons the 230 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:04.839 correct I had run by transwomen in actual basically, this 231 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:09.519 is what Steven was telling about in my book, which 232 00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:13.680 is run by Maya, one of the main protagonists. And 233 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:17.960 uh yeah, at the beginning she made theo or basically 234 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:22.279 she created the Solon hair salon of course as a 235 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:26.160 means to survive right to to to have a livelihood. 236 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:30.759 But also this is not just decision that came or 237 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:33.480 I have some money or I have some investors and 238 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:37.039 make hair salon. But this is something decision that came 239 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:46.200 after going through live so yeah, so so like filled 240 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:50.559 with violence. Basically she was a sex worker. At some 241 00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:55.279 point she was abused by her family members. She moved 242 00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:58.680 different to different cities. She works in different hair salons 243 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:01.680 as well, and when she came back to her hometown, 244 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:06.160 she felt that she wanted to make a hair salon 245 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:12.599 that let basically doesn't reproduce all the other violent experience 246 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:17.680 that that that that she she experienced before. And so 247 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:22.240 that's why it's from the outside it looks like a 248 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:28.799 normal running hair salon and the the workers there are 249 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:35.200 mainly transfomen because in in Indonesia in general, UH, it 250 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:38.480 is difficult for trans people to to have like this 251 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:43.960 kind of like stable office job. So the only options 252 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:48.160 UH that they have if they have skills, then they 253 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:51.799 would either work or own a hair salon or maybe 254 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:56.160 work in fashion design. But those who are who have 255 00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:59.759 no access at all, than a lot of them working 256 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:05.920 as as a sweet busker right singing for money from 257 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.599 door to door or sex workers. So these are mainly 258 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:15.720 the forror uh forms of employment that that could access. 259 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:21.000 So having this salon is as a place for livelihood, 260 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:24.640 not just for her but also for her community. But 261 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:31.720 because actually, as I told you, it's a special location 262 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:35.200 in a way that it's impossible for these women to 263 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:41.440 be in public uh more than they need to because 264 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:47.480 they're subjected to ridicule, subject to there's a moral police 265 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:52.480 there who who And then also they're kind of trying 266 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:55.519 to blend in with other women wearing his job right. 267 00:20:55.640 --> 00:21:01.640 But also this also creates another insult of them trying 268 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:07.119 to you know, play with religion and so on. So 269 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:12.559 what initially started as a hairsalon slowly becomes this kind 270 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:17.359 of what you said, this community. I wouldn't say safe space, 271 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:21.880 but this is because exactly by hanging out there on 272 00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:26.319 a daily basis, it's also made it made it made 273 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:30.200 it easier for them to be targeted like more by 274 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:36.279 moral police or police officers who maybe doesn't want to 275 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:42.599 arrest them, but you know, like for getting some cigarette 276 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.720 money and so on, just to you know, like, so 277 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:52.599 they have this place which they they can interact. But 278 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:58.119 also it's quite quite fragile the safety mm hmm. 279 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:03.319 One thing interesting is so, for instance, you talked a 280 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:05.599 little bit about and you're talking about this in the book, 281 00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:08.160 how like there was political changes I think you said 282 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:11.160 starting in two thousand and six, which was the nine 283 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:13.920 that allowed the introduction of shrial law. But then you 284 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:18.519 also remember, correct with the reading, like these outbursts of 285 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:23.039 let's say more like kind of quasi vigilante community policing 286 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:26.599 don't happen immediately. They happen at different points in times. 287 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:31.920 But I'm not clear like what what like what causes 288 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:32.880 that or it. 289 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:33.240 Was just. 290 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:40.240 I mean different different because I think on one important 291 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:44.680 turning point was the nineteen ninety eight reform Indonesia where 292 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:54.319 basically after Suharto, the authority Energyma Suharto, they basically managed 293 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:59.799 to silence all sides of society from the right and leaf, 294 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:06.079 from the Islamis and from human rights movement, from environmentalists 295 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:11.799 to women movement. And when the head is chopped off, right, 296 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.359 but so Arto is gone, basically there's this kind of 297 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:21.519 window of openness, right, everyone was like, oh yeah, let's 298 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:29.119 bring back Marxist left, this knowledge that has been censored 299 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:34.240 for such a long time. Let's bring back conversation around 300 00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:37.319 gender and sexuality that is not you know, following the 301 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:43.039 models that is made by the state and for the 302 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.440 Islamist also there were there were for a long time 303 00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:54.559 being oppressed. They're being the politicized basically, which doesn't there 304 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:57.319 so they didn't have a lot of channels to express 305 00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:01.640 their opinions and voices as well. So with this opening, 306 00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:05.119 what happened is then you have a lot of groups 307 00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:08.519 from left as well as from the human rights from 308 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.400 queer rights are forming mobilizing. But at the same time 309 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:18.960 also people from the conservative side become more active right 310 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.359 And since then then basically you have this kind of 311 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:31.680 continuous frictions in public spaces. But I think one of 312 00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:35.000 the I said one of them, because there's a new 313 00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:41.480 development that I will also share later. Another turning point 314 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:46.279 was in twenty sixteen when there was a time I 315 00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:53.160 remember where a lot of Western country start to embrace 316 00:24:55.119 --> 00:25:02.119 legalized same sex marriage basically and this also translate into 317 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:08.160 new circulations, but also you know, opinions debates in social media. 318 00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:14.839 I think one of the I remember when US legalized 319 00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:19.160 same sex marriage in twenty fifteen, there was a filter 320 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:25.559 in Facebook right when people can use rainbow filter as 321 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:32.559 their profile pictures and I think a lot of because 322 00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:35.359 Indonesia have a lot of Facebook users at that time, 323 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:37.680 and a lot of people are using it, and that 324 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:44.000 kind of surprise the conservative they didn't realize actually how 325 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:49.839 many how much support there is for if not allegedly 326 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:56.680 queer themselves, you know, for for same sex, legalizing same 327 00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:01.759 sex basically, and this creates a lot of pushback from 328 00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:07.359 from the conservative, one being at that time the Minister 329 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:16.759 of Education and Research who tweeted that he he's banning 330 00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:23.160 uh student Queer Initiative in University of Indonesia and Jakarta. 331 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:27.400 And because because of this statement, of course a lot 332 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:31.960 of human rights activists, core activists kind of respond back. 333 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:39.079 But actually the counter response from the conservative is much moresive, massive, 334 00:26:39.160 --> 00:26:44.480 and it translates into physical spaces as well. There's kind 335 00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:47.640 of like you see in different big cities in Indonesia 336 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:56.240 and like banners, posters with slurs, with anti LGBT slurs 337 00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:01.759 basically and campaign and yeah, and then and then it 338 00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:07.039 kind of it's not gone, but it's kind of like 339 00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:15.000 because the impact continues consept like sequent like sporadically through 340 00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:20.000 police rates also vigilanti raids to housings, to fall on us, 341 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:29.640 to parties, and actually just last month, the heat is 342 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:38.359 cranked up again with the Indonesian Lama console. Oh so sorry, 343 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.079 my story is long because this is also a long history. 344 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:46.640 So recently Indonesia adopt or changed their pinal code. Right, Initially, 345 00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:54.359 before homosexuality was not was was was not criminalized basically, 346 00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:58.079 but since twenty twenty two we have a new penal code. 347 00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:05.880 Still homosexuality is not penalized, but same sorry sex outside 348 00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:10.960 of marriage is so meaning Stephen, if you are not married, 349 00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:17.880 then you are hesterosexual. You're still going to be criminalized 350 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:23.119 based on this new penal code. Right. But also and 351 00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:27.640 this is like an umbrella clause that the women also 352 00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:32.559 same sex same sex sexuality is also criminalized because it's 353 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:35.880 outside of marriage or same sex marriage is not legal 354 00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:39.359 in Indonesia, So it's kind of like this whole logic. 355 00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:47.880 Yea twenty twenty two we have that, and apparently the 356 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:52.839 conservative or the Islamic console is not happy that there 357 00:28:52.920 --> 00:29:00.680 is no actual clause that criminalize LGBT. So as Pride 358 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:06.559 season recently again activate the whole social media scene. Uh, 359 00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:11.319 the Ulama consil come up with a plan to now 360 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:15.079 or they're working together with the parliament member to to 361 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:18.279 to to to criminal to come up with the new 362 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:25.160 law basically against lgbt which UH too little that we 363 00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:29.839 know they're actually they they have a legal basis for 364 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.559 that because our new president, the military general or the 365 00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:42.440 former military general probable in their National Defense Scheme under 366 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:51.799 presidential regulation define different national threats and UH divided into 367 00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:57.279 military and non military threats, and with non military threats, 368 00:29:57.319 --> 00:30:05.200 for instance, atheism consider as non military threats. Online gambling 369 00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:09.599 is considered as non military threats, and LGBTQ culture is 370 00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:14.279 also considered as non military threats. And because of this 371 00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:19.279 is this official document. Now more and more like conservative 372 00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:23.599 institutions are tapping into that, and then they're really really 373 00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:29.559 trying to push now to change the whole yeah situation. 374 00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:34.160 I mean, that's kind of evilly clever that you're yoking 375 00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:37.920 yoking together things which could cause actual harm, like the 376 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:41.359 abjective gambling to something which is just not harmful at all. 377 00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:44.240 But it still reminds me of the way someone like 378 00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:47.039 David Gribber, borrowing from bits and talks about the idea 379 00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:49.920 of skisble genesis, where you define yourself against the other 380 00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:53.200 that you're not. So so this is bad here because 381 00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:58.000 this is also of spending time in Singapore and talking 382 00:30:58.079 --> 00:30:59.880 to queer friends there and the way they talk about 383 00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:04.559 how how oftentimes conservatives in Singapore with Frank quitness as 384 00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:08.319 being the sort of like this Western import and then 385 00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:11.279 we're like, well, no, actually the thing that's important was 386 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:13.640 not queerness, but was actually homophobia. 387 00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:20.519 And gender binary. Yeah, yeah, because of this binary. Actually, 388 00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:22.960 I think the core of it is actually binary, that 389 00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:27.759 that that really tried to define something that that is 390 00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:32.759 in sexual Sorry, in Southeast Asia or Global South is 391 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:36.160 much more fluid, right, you have different different roles and 392 00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:41.200 positional at positionality you don't have. I mean, you can 393 00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:44.559 be a woman, a man, a trans woman, transman even 394 00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:50.160 like other kind of configurations of gender and sexuality that 395 00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:55.960 basically are being impovourished by this model of gender binary. 396 00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:59.799 And then comes to the hierarchy in it, right, So 397 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:04.400 the masculine is kind of the highest in the hierarchy 398 00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:09.920 in comparison to the feminine. And where patriarchy comes in, 399 00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:15.640 where homophobia comes in, frotophobia comes in as well. So, yeah, 400 00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:22.119 homophobia is a Western important I agree with you, it. 401 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:26.000