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Speaker 1: They've seen what it actually says. And we've hammered this

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for months and for weeks and months. Well, but it

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is it's true. Now they do they do worship.

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Speaker 2: Oh I thought I thought was supposed to be so clear.

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And the position doesn't change. No.

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Speaker 1: You see, as Tim Gordon pointed out, you got to

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know uh, Frega's linguistic theories to understand Vatican two. And clearly,

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clearly anybody who has an IQ above room temperature would

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see that the rate. The way to interpret Vatican two

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is uh, you know Frega's linguistic arguments. You can't make

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this up. That was his argument last.

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Speaker 3: Night in Romans One, doesn't Paul talk about how no

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one can claim ignorance because they can see, like they

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can observe creation and infer there is a creator.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's the external witness is attested to in

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their hearts. That that's why he said. And it's not

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the intellect, that's what That's what we're saying, is that

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it's the noetic. It's the noetic problem, not an intellectual problem.

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The noos is the heart. It's not an intell The

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intellect gets darkened too. But the only reason the intellect

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gets darkened is because the noetic faculties the heart is

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are dark is darken first.

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Speaker 2: Just on Paul's talks that they then suppress it through

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their unrighteousness.

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Speaker 1: And who does he say that they're worshiping and serving

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in verse twenty five? Is it the true God? No,

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it's the creation. They exchange the truth of God. And

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they don't worship and serve the God anymore, the Creator.

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They serve the creature. Amen, their worship is not God,

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it's the creature Romans one, which.

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Speaker 4: Is what we've been seeing all the time.

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Speaker 2: It's idolatry exactly.

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Speaker 1: The whole passage is making our point. And it's not

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the intellect that is the problem, it's the heart. As

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Paul says, did they retain the true God in their knowledge?

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They did not retain the true God in their knowledge?

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Romans one eight. Are they worshippers of God? Romans one

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thirty says they are what haters of God? If I'm

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a hater of God? Am I a worshiper of God?

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Roman Catholics?

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Speaker 5: Well, you see, if the reference freaks according to by

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freaking right thing about natural objects that don't apply to

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things like God, then well of course it's worship, but.

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Speaker 4: God just doesn't accept it.

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Speaker 1: You see, well, the whole dat Vatican, the cons like, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Just because people use is a Roman Catholic professor friend

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of mine.

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Speaker 4: Said, it's sort of stupidity.

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Speaker 2: You got to go to school to learn. Yeah, like

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go with your heart and your intuition, like I mean,

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look at the poll before this started. Of course Christians

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and Muslims don't worship the same God. And then all

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of you are gonna get so caught up. And I

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can do I can dance.

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Speaker 4: You want me to.

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Speaker 2: Dance Frega, you know, Krypti Parsky.

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Speaker 4: I can do it.

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Speaker 2: It's a whole bunch of nonsense, like intuitively, listen to

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your heart. It's absurd, and that's what the poll showed, right,

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And all of y'all getting confused, right, none of you

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are to even understand like the depths of these kind

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of theories of reference. But like lean into your heart,

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like you know.

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Speaker 1: Of course, we talked about this today at church, and

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all the guys at church are like, I can't believe

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that we're even having to debate this because even Protestants

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just intuitively know. Of course, Muslims and Christians don't worship

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the same God. Come on, it's just obvious they don't

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and seeing the actions of the papacy tells us what

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they mean.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's because you haven't read Crypteme and Straws and

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bertrand Russell.

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Speaker 1: I have read some of them, but I don't see

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how that's how that's going to help us with with

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one John two when it says that if you don't

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have the son, you don't have the father. So yeah,

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here was the original poll in the midst of the debate,

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seven hundred and thirty three votes, almost eighty percent agreeing

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with us, and these guys were losing. That's Cameron's Catholic poll,

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by the way, And.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing, especially in this Dame age when everything's just fan.

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Speaker 1: And everybody's fanboys and they're not honest. That's pretty amazing. Exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's actually says a lot.

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Speaker 1: To remember. The gods of the nations are devils. Do

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not go after the other gods. The things that gentile sacrifice,

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they sacrifice to devils and not to the one true God,

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the Trinity. First Grientia ten twenty Romans one, that they

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exchange the worship of God for the creature and what

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do the medieval papacy called the Muslims, infidels, demon worshipers, pagans, heretics,

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on on dean limb ten dollars. They want to vilify

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you guys so bad that they're willing to check out

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the Superman Lowest Hill analogy. They're very deceitful and malicious.

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I think that's becoming aware. See, I've been saying to

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you guys since twenty eighteen, when all we had all

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the loft In drama, all the Ibarra drama. I've been saying,

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it's not me being mean. These people are devious and

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they're slimy, they're snakes, And I think maybe finally people

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are trying to actually figure out these something's off with

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these Roman calogue dudes, the so called pop apologetic sphere.

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Matt five dollars, Martin Luther, Uber Allas Luskiddell became remember

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for four months, I love Clark Kent, but I hate Superman.

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Jordan dearedof five dollars Roamed says that Muslims arnor Mary.

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But how is that? They say? Is she honored by

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saying that she will be Muhammed's wife in heaven is

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that honorable to say that she divorced Joseph.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean they're just picking and choosing and ignoring the

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ways in which Islam blasphemes and vilifies the Virgin Mary.

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Straight why mel ten dollars? If a man worships a

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demon disguised as the God of Catholicism, we have to

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say that he is actually worshiping the same God as

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we are, because they are corrupted by people infallibility. It

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does seem like that right, like it would this would

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be transversible, reversible, you know, in all these different ways.

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And that's why Father Deacon was actually correct to say that, No,

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I'm sorry, Protestants and Catholics do not have the worship

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of the Trinity or Christ. They don't. They've lost it.

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That's precisely why we don't grant that they have gracious sacraments,

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because they've lost the faith. And we're not saying that

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because we're happy or gleeful. We want them to come

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back to the faith. Monarchical trinitarianism. And what you're hearing

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here about Theophanes and the Trinity in the Old Testament

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is the Patristic teaching. It is the Orthodox Catholic church's teaching.

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It's the teaching of the first thousand years. The stuff

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that Rome now teaches is the deviation, and it should

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be evident to all for the world to see that

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the papacy has deviated through the very actions of praying

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in the synagogues, I mean in synagogues and moss towards Mecca. Well,

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they're just suiting.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: No. In Roman Catholicism, you're not just sinning when you

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do actions of apostasy, as we saw in Aquinas, those

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actions cut you off from the Church and our specific

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serious sins that automatically excommunicate you in traditional Catholic canon law.

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They're not just random sens. It's not like sleeping with

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your girlfriend. It's not like cheating at work or something

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is stealing five dollars of the cash register. Yes, they're

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all sins, but in Catholicism there are strata and layers

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of sins. Some of the sins are so severe they

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remove you from the mystical body. And as we saw,

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one of those is heresy and apostasy. Those remove you

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from the mystical body. In Catholic theology, as we already

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saw tonight, that's mestichi corporus twenty three insideast conidum nine. Okay,

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so who's next, tallahassee what's up? Down two to six

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two dollars? Be careful, Jay, Superman is going to get you.

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Sincere hypocrite five months. Mott and Bailey fallacy is that

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Vatican two says they adorning worship the same God, but

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then cats tray to cats repeat to well, but Muslims

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misunderstand that God in worship to make the position seem agreeable.

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Interesting it could it be a Mott and Bailey fallacy?

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I think it is, because that's kind of just shifting

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the meaning of the words, right, Probably, Deacon.

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Speaker 2: And I'll go ahead. What was the question?

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Speaker 1: We're we're investigating whether the Vatican to approach of the

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Roman Catholics might be a Mott and Bailey fallacy. It's

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a ahatorical tactic where one advances a controversial claim and

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then when challenge, retreats to a different, modest, easily defensible

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position of the mott and then pretends that the original

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claim was never made. I think this is a Mott

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and Bailey fallacy. That's a really good I think.

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Speaker 2: That's I think so Father Russell was saying was the

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stocking horse fallacy. I think it's similar, like you put

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yourself out there and then you can retreat when the

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deer or whatever you know in the analogy starts to

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move and be like, oh no, no, no, I'm behind the.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So like if I say, well, they say, look,

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we all worship one God, right, we all worship a

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unitary unity in some sense, and it's a creator living

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and subsisting in himself, as Vatican two says. And then

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the bailey is the controversial claim that we all worship it,

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and it's the same reference. And then when you get

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into the specifics the speaker when challenged on the bailey

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the difficult part, they retreat to the mott. Well it's

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the same. But what about where I show that it's

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not the same. Well, but it's just the same because

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we say the word God together.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're definitely doing this, do you.

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Speaker 2: And all these fallacies, right, do you notice the stemonic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a form of lying because.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look what the devil says, Oh, you'll

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become like God's or like the devil himself is always

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manipulating and equivocating on the words, right, taking a little

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bit of the truth, which is actually has a reference

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and then what.

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Speaker 4: Does he do?

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Speaker 2: He switches it and the.

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Speaker 4: He dissolves.

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Speaker 2: The boundaries have been like, well, it could mean this

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and this contact and fix the reference.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what they're doing. Yeah, they're they're interchanging the

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definitions of the words depending upon what needs to be

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argued at the time, and they're shifting. They're shifting between

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specifics and generic. That's what they're doing. Misty Rain I

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grew up in Protestant I was raised Protestant. He'd about Orthodoxy.

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I thought it was Catholicism. I steered clear from it.

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I broke away from Protestants because of unanswered questions. I

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found your videos and knew I was on the right track. Well, yeah, exactly,

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check out good you know Orthodox Church. I would avoid

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the Greeks, Saint trifon five dollars Jay, I just joined.

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Did you see that they're going to do a therapy session. Yeah,

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I saw this is the They're they're crashing out and

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so now that the actual issues are out there, they're

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going to try to come after me personally and do

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an exposed video. But like all it is, that's only

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going to help us they don't even understand that, Like

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nine percent of the comments.

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Speaker 2: Are if they won, why are they doing.

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Speaker 1: This exactly if they're confident and if they won, and

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this is not but they know it's not. It's a

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huge optics nightmare, which is why they've spent ever since

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then just coming after me an FDA non stop midnight light.

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Why would unbelievers Why should I say to non believers

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that try to refute the Bible if they haven't read it,

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Jesus didn't act like that he loves everybody. Well, they

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have a false conception of Jesus. I mean this idea

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just like Mormons, right, Mormons, I believe that Jesus Christ

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is the Messiah and the divine Son of God, the Father. Yeah,

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but every meaning attached to those terms is not what

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orthodox Christianity means.

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Speaker 2: Because false conception of love as well, right, Because if

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God is love.

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Speaker 4: That's one of his energies.

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Speaker 2: Can't not be loved. But then when he says I

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came to bring the sword right Father against.

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Speaker 4: Son the second world, well that's not loving, you see.

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Speaker 2: But like, but God's always love, so that even division

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right in rebuking and condemnation and judgment and casting out

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is love. And so not only do they they not

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have an understanding of like who Christ is, they don't

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have to understand what love is, right, and so don't

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ever grant that to people love is not emotional, you know, boomer.

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Speaker 4: Hippie kind of like, yeah, just be like love is.

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Speaker 2: Like there's an act of love in actually executing somebody

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for Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, they think love is an affectation of being nice

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and agreeable. That's what they think love is. Yeah, and

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by the way, they're totally dishonest about what I presented

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in the debate. I did I present the nine different

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slides of the from the Middle Ages on Islam from

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the papacy. I didn't present one. And this slide for

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this example here from the Council of v N. It

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makes basically the same equivalent point as the very first

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one from Pope Urban about the status of Islam. Where

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did it go? Islam is an infidel religion. Infidels are pagans.

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Saracens are called pagans, So they're not monotheistic Abrahamic believers.

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They're pagans. Jack Jack, Oh, okay, can you hear me?

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Speaker 6: Uh yeah, yeah, I hope you guys are doing well.

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I kind of missed the drama with all these discussions

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the past, I don't know, going on for weeks or whatever.

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But I am a Catholic and I was just interested

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because my from what what I remember hearing from clergy

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and whatnot, has always been that the Angel of the

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Lord is the second person of the Trinity. That, uh,

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basically every thing.

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Speaker 1: That you've said, well, some Catholics are better than their

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the some Catholics are better than their theology. Because most

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of the academic ones will deny that. But if you're

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talking to like just you know, a local priest or

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something like that, he might actually just think from the

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Bible and the liturgical tradition that it is, because it's

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pretty clear in the Bible that it is. I mean,

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when Justin Marter argues against Trifle the Jew, he argues

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that your text as a Jew, show the aims of

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the Lord to be distinct from the Father, and that's

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the Messiah.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think I actually recall hearing about that.

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Speaker 1: But the problem is that in the later Roman Catholic

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medieval discussions from Aquinas and then the responses to Palamas

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from Barleum define that the light of Tabor is created,

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and Aquinas explicitly teaches that these are just visions. It's

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when when Abraham, when jo Jacob's wrestling with the angel Lord.

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These are visions because God cannot be in time and

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space because he's not a body, so there's no way

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for the Lord can't stand there. He's not a body.

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In fact, that's yeah.

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Speaker 4: There was something today.

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Speaker 6: A reading we had today actually for the Peace of

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Saint Peter and Paul was from Acts right when when

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Peter is in jail and he has a vision of

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an angel and he's being guided out of the prison,

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and it says that Peter thought that this was just

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a vision and he didn't understand that it was really

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happening until he was of course on the on a

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side street in Jerusalem, and he realized that physically happened.

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So I mean that I don't know if that was

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the that was Christ, that being that angel of the

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Angel of the Lord. I don't think it was, But now.

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Speaker 1: I think that was just an angel. Usually it was.

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Usually when it is at the Theophany, it's identified and

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you'll notice there's a great paype. I would recommend it's

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not very long because you guys have heard me reference

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the Benjamin Summer book Bodies of God, which is the

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Jewish text, the modern scholarly Jewish text that admits multiplicity

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in Yahweh, in the Torah and the Old Testament. This

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is a paper that somebody wrote at a seminar that

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compares Sommer's analysis of these Theophanes, the Jewish scholar, versus

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Aquinas's analysis in their Night and Day. And we are

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saying that the Orthodox tradition is faithfully accurately presenting what

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the Hebrew tradition is, and the tonistic metaphysic explicitly departs

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from it.

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Speaker 6: That's interesting. Do you know if anything in the chemistic

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philosophy has been dogmatized per se?

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Speaker 2: I think?

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Speaker 6: I know, transubstantiation and probably a million other things have been,

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but has there been anything about the.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think and whatnot? There are later

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statements that what you for example, Trent says that what

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you partake of, and for the Orthodox, the uncreated light

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is the uncreated grace that we partake of. For for

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Roman Catholicism, at Trent it is specified that the grace

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that you partake of is a creature, so it is

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not an uncreated reality.

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Speaker 6: Even like like sacramentally being in like the mystery of

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the Eucharist, like that would be something that would be

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that's supposedly a creature, that would that's that's the.

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Speaker 1: Maginst We would argue that Roman Catholicism, because of its

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divine simplicity doctrine, does not have any explanation for what

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the divinity is in the Eucharist.

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Speaker 6: Hm, hm, can you expound on that?

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Speaker 1: Well, we all agree, we all agree, we all agree

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that no one partakes of the essence of God. So

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if you're Roman Catholic and you have a strict Fourth

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Laddering Council Peter Lombard doctrine of divine simplicity or a

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Tomistic doctrine divine simplicity as your framework, then you're going

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to be forced to say that the grace that is

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itself in the sacrament is a creature. And that's what

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Lili God says. Lili Gott says, the grace that you

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get in your soul is a supernatural created accident.

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Speaker 2: And why do you think Christopher, uh, doctor Christopher Thomas

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Waswaski said, you don't experience God in the U chorus exactly.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I didn't I don't. I mean, I am

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not familiar with.

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Speaker 2: That individual or what.

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Speaker 1: Well, he's the Thomas professor. He's the Thomas professor.

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Speaker 2: I'll give him that.

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Speaker 6: Okay, what was So is it is there like a distinction?

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I guess, I guess maybe maybe it's.

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Speaker 4: A semanticable thing.

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Speaker 2: Is it that you were not?

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Speaker 6: Well, I guess you are. The eu Christ would be

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the totality, like the Trinity is president as present right

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and in the the body blood salon divinity.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean not in the same mode. So it

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is the body and blood and soul and divinity of

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the Son of God. But the divinity there, according to

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Saint Cyril and the Council of Ephesus and Orthodox theology,

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is the uncreated grace, light, and immortality of God, not

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the essence of God. Cyril has two letters where he

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talks about those, So that's the essence inerg distinction. And

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Rome rejects that.

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Speaker 2: And that's why Christopher said what he said.

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Speaker 6: He's okay, so he said that you're not you're not

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receiving that receiving God?

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Speaker 5: Is that?

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Speaker 4: Is it not?

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Speaker 6: For the same reason though that you said that that

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you're you're not receiving the essence of God. Is there

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some sort of I'm sure there there is a super

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philosophical dichot like difference there that I'm not that I'm

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wollefully uneducated and can't understand.

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Speaker 4: But we're not that chasing them. Obviously, they want to

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say that you're in some way and it's contradictory.

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Speaker 2: The essence of God is actually there because they according

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to coins, the substance of the essence of God is there,

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and the substance of bread is removed, and the accidents

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remain in the accidents that here in nothing rather than

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the substance, which is contradictory itself.

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Speaker 1: Well, they're not going to say that you can eat.

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Speaker 2: The essence of the actual essence.

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Speaker 1: So they're going to have to say that it's a

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way of seeing.

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Speaker 2: You partake or directly experienced God. So he said what he.

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Speaker 1: Said, it's right here in loud with God. The sanctifying

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grace that is in your soul from whatever source when

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you're baptized or the uchus or whatever, is a created,

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supernatural gift, really distinct from God. So it is not God.

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But do you notice proposition five. It is a participation

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in the divine nature those are tradictory statements because there's

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no such thing as created God.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that's that is interesting.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, good questions. I appreciate that. We always welcome

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a civil Roman Catholic calling in DZ the king. What's up,

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straight white male? Five dollars. Maybe Muslims can actually join

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Sam Shimmun's Apostolic church exactly the one that he made

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up v Scott five dollars. They're trying to draw a

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wedge between you and FDA now, saying if you look

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at Jay, he was mean, but FDA was nice. All this. Yeah,

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all they have is this stuff they don't know. They

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can't address sexual issues. Orthotoko's ten dollars just one second.

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Here is a simple one for the Roman Catholic slowboys.

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The Council Florence says Tranitarians are condemned unless they become

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Nontrinitarians are condemned lest they convert to papalism. Vatican too,

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says Muslims worship the true God and should be esteemed.

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That is a contradiction. Exactly what's up?

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Speaker 7: Hey man, Thank you for taking my call. So, yeah,

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I was listening to your conversation. You and father, Deacon

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with Trent and the gentleman. And I believe it was trying.

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He was trying to pay you to do a syllogism

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for your for your argument, and I don't believe you

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gave one, not that you had to give one at all,

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but I just took the luxury of making one. And

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I wanted to just hear your thoughts or receive if

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you could poke holes in it for me.

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Speaker 2: I want to before you begin, I want to I

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want to spell pylogism for you. S I L L

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y T your O s M I s M. Now

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go ahead.

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Speaker 4: I appreciate you Father, thank you.

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Speaker 2: I have sorry speak Peppi and this Alexia. It's hard.

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I'm sorry for give those things.

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Speaker 7: But no, I but I appreciate your father and I

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everything that you do. I read a lot of your works, Father,

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and you taught me a whole lot. So yeah, So

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what I have here is premise one, which is you

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can't honor the father without honoring the son.

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Speaker 2: As Jesus clearly says in the in the.

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Speaker 7: In the description right, and primise too is honor is

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a necessary component for worship. Honor is a necessary precondition

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for the possibility to worship, right, like, you can't to

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do any type of worship without first honoring I think,

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And Primis three would be Muslims reject honor to the Son,

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at least in the sense that Jesus demands that you

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have to honor him, to honor the Father, as we

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Christians believe. So the conclusion therefore, Muslims don't worship the

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same God as Christians.

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Speaker 1: Father Diagan, watch your assessment.

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Speaker 2: Sorry to you, just repeat that again, sure, father, Primis one,

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you can't honor the Father without honoring the son. Primis two.

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Honor is a necessary component of worship.

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Speaker 7: You can't worship without first given honor. Primist three, Muslims

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reject honor.

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Speaker 1: To the Son.

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Speaker 7: Yes, Muslims don't worship the same God as Christians.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna just do this request. Let me just write

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it out.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, that seems to be valid, actually, and it includes

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the belief operator too, so and which would be honor

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which was the point that I was making with the

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Berlian stipulation.

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Speaker 4: Right right.

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Speaker 7: And I remember you giving one argument, father, and I

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can't remember what that was on, but I did want

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to ask I guess one of you guys just before

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we depart.

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Speaker 2: I think the only.

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Speaker 7: Way that a Roman Catholic could poke a hold of

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this would be premise. Three Muslims reject honor to the son.

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Maybe they were trying to redefine what honor is or

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some how make some type.

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Speaker 1: Of Well, we're just saying worship. I mean, the whole

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debate is over worship, so why not, right, I mean

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Muslims do not worship the Sun, So just put it

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that way.

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Speaker 7: Okay, awesome A I love you two guys, Thank you,

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and I appreciate your.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, straight white male, I know we did that one. Sorry,

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Laser Turtle Productions ten dollars. I came to a faith

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00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,319
by way of AA. Oh, you mean like addiction. I

461
00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:29,000
struggle with obsessive compulsion. Matthew eleven twenty eight is holding

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00:29:29,079 --> 00:29:33,720
me by a thread. I respect you deeply. How has

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00:29:33,799 --> 00:29:35,960
Jesus transformed your life? I'd love to hear from you.

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I mean in a lot of ways. I mean, my

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00:29:40,279 --> 00:29:46,039
whole life has been totally changed, you know from I

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00:29:46,039 --> 00:29:49,079
don't I think, and as you get older and as

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00:29:49,119 --> 00:29:52,240
you live your life, you don't think about Christianity. I'm

468
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:53,680
not saying you're doing this, but you don't really think

469
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,079
of it as like one thing or one big event.

470
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,319
I mean, there may be a Pauline event in your

471
00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:02,319
life where you have the scales you know, fall off

472
00:30:02,359 --> 00:30:05,720
or whatever. But I think as you get older, you

473
00:30:05,799 --> 00:30:09,400
just see it as something that you, you know, kind

474
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,880
of gradually takes over your life, you know what I mean.

475
00:30:12,039 --> 00:30:13,680
I think that's the point is to grow in it.

476
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:16,839
Come to me, all you labor here heavy laden, and

477
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,200
I will give you rest. Yeah, I've definitely seen that

478
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:25,839
to be true. Orthozowski two dollars again, one John two

479
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,079
twenty three. Yes, we just we mentioned it earlier. I

480
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,240
don't see how that's not a kill shot. I think

481
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,480
Jesus and the Pharisees and one John two are pretty

482
00:30:34,519 --> 00:30:39,400
much the kill shots. Because you notice when I brought

483
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,400
them up, they turned their eyes. They wouldn't even look

484
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,559
at the screen. And to me, that says more than

485
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,000
if they had at least tried to give some kind

486
00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:55,240
of sophistical answer. But they turned away because if you

487
00:30:55,279 --> 00:30:57,680
deny the son, you don't have the father. Muslims deny

488
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,880
the son, therefore they don't have the father, Therefore they.

489
00:30:59,759 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 2: Don't When they asked me question, Mike, well, I'm not

490
00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:03,799
going to answer that.

491
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: If I said anything like remotely like or acted in

492
00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:10,839
any way remotely like the way they acted, the all

493
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,359
Roman Catholics would be going crazy. It would be the

494
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,480
end of the world. They would be like, he's done,

495
00:31:16,519 --> 00:31:19,079
his career is over, he's you know, Saint trif On

496
00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:21,519
five dollars, jay I just joined. Did you see that

497
00:31:21,559 --> 00:31:24,200
they're having a therapy. Yeah, we said. The Orbo mental

498
00:31:24,279 --> 00:31:29,039
breakdown is because you asked william debate. Williams are running

499
00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:32,920
for six years and Orbs are deceiving people on the camera.

500
00:31:33,839 --> 00:31:37,440
The Gatholics can cry together coptic brow three dollars. Great work,

501
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,720
Father Antonius. You held down the rest of the debate.

502
00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:44,400
Certified soy boys that admitted that communion and the liturgy

503
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,640
is not an empirical experience of God. Well they're Thomas,

504
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,720
so God isn't in time and space? Is how silly?

505
00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:51,039
This says the grace and the things that are in

506
00:31:51,079 --> 00:31:54,920
time and space in the Thomas system are creatures. The

507
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,079
soy deflected to transubstantiation. Strong Man Soyman admits Roman Catholic

508
00:31:59,119 --> 00:32:02,759
God is an Orthodox God. Yeah, it's not. Tun one

509
00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:04,880
hundred and fifty dollars well, thank you, Jacob. You is

510
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,400
a huge super chat. Try upping your persuasiveness in your

511
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,279
augmentation to the room acalacs by smacking a bunch of

512
00:32:11,319 --> 00:32:14,640
apples and then smash them into your mouth with your

513
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,880
boxing gloves. Also, I need to let some flies room

514
00:32:18,319 --> 00:32:20,119
loose in the room because of it head flies landing

515
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,519
on his head. I just noticed later on as people

516
00:32:22,519 --> 00:32:25,279
were talking about laughing about it. Also, I'm a website member,

517
00:32:25,279 --> 00:32:27,680
I can't get access to the member's stuff. All you

518
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,160
gotta do is come over here to the website. It's

519
00:32:31,359 --> 00:32:37,400
probably so simple that it's boomer level stuff. Literally, everything

520
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,839
when you're logged in is just on the member content

521
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,839
page right here. So when you're logged in, you go here,

522
00:32:43,519 --> 00:32:46,319
you scroll down and it's all on one page, and

523
00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:49,480
you click the links to the audios or whatever. So

524
00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:51,720
it's all one page. And want to remind you guys

525
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,839
too if you want to go ahead and get pre orders.

526
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,680
Esote collag With three will be out in the next

527
00:32:57,759 --> 00:33:00,039
few weeks. Don't have an exact date yet, but it

528
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:04,119
will be in July, so sometime next month. All of

529
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,839
our products are here, but sign copies of every book.

530
00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:15,200
Esoteric Hollywood three the completion to the trilogy. Nine almost

531
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,599
ten years of Esoter Hollywood, so this will probably be

532
00:33:17,759 --> 00:33:20,640
the end of the trilogy. If I get a wild

533
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,559
hair down the road, I might write about movies again.

534
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,559
We'll see what I feel like going. But this is, probably,

535
00:33:26,599 --> 00:33:31,799
at least for the nearer future, the conclusion to the trilogy.

536
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,359
So if you want to get your signed copies, go

537
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,680
ahead and click the link in the show description and

538
00:33:36,759 --> 00:33:38,480
head on over there and get your name in for

539
00:33:38,839 --> 00:33:41,079
so Soteric Hollywood three. But remember it is still a

540
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,839
few weeks out, so don't message me complaining in the

541
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,200
next few weeks. Where's my books? Also, if you order

542
00:33:47,319 --> 00:33:50,160
parts one, two and three, or anything together with three,

543
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,119
it will not be shipped until three comes out, So

544
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,079
don't order one in two and three and then be like,

545
00:33:57,119 --> 00:33:59,759
where's one in two? It's all going to come together.

546
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,519
I cannot go through hundreds of orders and sift out

547
00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:06,319
individually doing separate orders for the people that want their

548
00:34:06,359 --> 00:34:08,159
part twos. That you'll just have to get it all.

549
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,320
It's just way too much, just a nightmare the way

550
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,760
we can do that. So you'll just have to wait

551
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,599
a little bit longer. But thank you. T FONK and

552
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,280
hopefully that helps you if you just log in, everything

553
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,000
is literally just under this tab. This as member content.

554
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,800
Let's see if you guys also have going to donate

555
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,679
as well to FDA, so the super chess will also

556
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,360
help FDA. And I apologize for not having the website

557
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,280
to updated in a couple of days. We've just been

558
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,480
so covered up with a debate, so I should get

559
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:44,000
this all updated very quickly, and we will soon return

560
00:34:44,079 --> 00:34:51,199
to finishing the geopolitical text by Blumenthal Management of Savagery.

561
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:53,960
That's going to be complete very soon, and that will

562
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,519
be our next geopolitical discussion. And I forget what we're

563
00:34:56,519 --> 00:34:58,239
doing after that, but it's going to be funny the way.

564
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,119
So follow me also on AC if you don't follow

565
00:35:01,159 --> 00:35:06,559
me there. But yes, all books from the website are signed, guys,

566
00:35:06,559 --> 00:35:09,360
you don't have to request it. They're automatically going to

567
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,559
come sign. That's the whole reason to get into the website,

568
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,159
and not some Jeff bezos heils from nine x ten dollars.

569
00:35:16,199 --> 00:35:19,760
Are you actually losing sleep over any of those losing sleep?

570
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 2: No?

571
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,639
Speaker 1: But after the debate, I had had so much coffee,

572
00:35:22,679 --> 00:35:25,480
you know, was so ramped up exactly what happened. Yeah,

573
00:35:25,519 --> 00:35:28,519
just like father Deacon, Like we were both having coffee.

574
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 2: I typically don't drink unlike Jay, who would drink coffee

575
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,199
until like, oh, I drink it all day long. Yeah.

576
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,840
I typically won't drink coffee past like three, but I

577
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,360
think I drank some coffee till like five.

578
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,599
Speaker 4: And uh, you know, you're just.

579
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 2: You're intellectually charged and you're thinking through arguments and you're

580
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,719
on the caffeine that like immediately after the debate, like

581
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,159
you try to go to bed, like your mind doesn't

582
00:35:57,159 --> 00:35:57,639
shut off.

583
00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, your mind doesn't shut off. My mind didn't shut

584
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,760
off until about four in the morning. So and I

585
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,559
had a lot of espress. So yeah, exactly, I mean

586
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:11,679
for real, Uh, Hailstrom says, just keep doing what you're doing, homeboy.

587
00:36:11,679 --> 00:36:14,920
A good chunk of why myself and many others will

588
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,440
be converting to Orthodoxy. My family's baptism is July sixth,

589
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,440
Well many years man, that's awesome. It's raining steak five dollars. Remember,

590
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,519
like I said to you guys, like we had a tradecat,

591
00:36:25,679 --> 00:36:28,239
just show up today at liturgy. He's like, yeah, I'm

592
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,800
done with the trade cat.

593
00:36:31,039 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 2: So we had two Mormons show up that converts really

594
00:36:36,159 --> 00:36:38,159
Mormonism into Orthodoxy day from Mino.

595
00:36:38,679 --> 00:36:42,199
Speaker 1: Oh nice, so like recent converts that they've been Orthodox

596
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:42,960
for a while.

597
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 2: No, like within the last year. Yeah, and they were

598
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,679
talking you know, I didn't interject, like when they were

599
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,239
talking to Father Russell, but like they were talking about

600
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,320
all the stuff they left Mormonism over the stuff that

601
00:36:58,360 --> 00:36:59,559
we were actually talking about.

602
00:36:59,679 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: And yeah, this is a bunch of nonsense people saying

603
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,039
that debates don't do anything, and nobody gets convinced by debates.

604
00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:10,280
I meet people every day that get convinced by debates.

605
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,760
So that's just simply not true. Some people don't like debates,

606
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,079
and that's fine, you don't have to. But many, many,

607
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,840
many people do like debates. It's raining stake five dollars.

608
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,519
The largest Christian nomination is this far gone to of

609
00:37:22,559 --> 00:37:24,800
the Roman Catholics. It's truly scary if you think about it.

610
00:37:25,079 --> 00:37:27,599
It is this is the power of the ecumenist movement,

611
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,199
and it's the unfortunate nature of this sort of Masonic

612
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,519
a humanist, perennialist idea. The current state of things make sense.

613
00:37:35,559 --> 00:37:39,480
Thus with this, it's really all theology and philosophy at

614
00:37:39,519 --> 00:37:41,280
the beginning of it and end of it, isn't it. Yeah,

615
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,000
Ultimately it's our paradigms and our commitments, you know, Harry

616
00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:49,119
Sarpanos five dollars. The Theophanies nail all this. Thank you

617
00:37:49,199 --> 00:37:52,159
Jay for exposing these heretics. Yeah. I think ultimately, if

618
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,000
we get into these biblical texts, that's the end of it.

619
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,519
I mean, look at number twelve, right, and then Yahweh

620
00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:04,320
came down in the pillar of the cloud and stood

621
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:13,639
at the door of the tabernacle, hm suko two dollars.

622
00:38:13,639 --> 00:38:16,599
Did you see Lofton's response to the Pope's letter? I know,

623
00:38:16,679 --> 00:38:18,480
I haven't. I don't even know what the Pope's letter is.

624
00:38:18,679 --> 00:38:22,159
What's I haven't kept up with Leo. I have no

625
00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:23,519
idea what what's going on with Leo?

626
00:38:23,559 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 2: What?

627
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: What's Leo's letter? And I don't watch Michael Lofton, so

628
00:38:28,079 --> 00:38:29,920
I don't know. I haven't looked at a Michael Lofton

629
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,000
video probably five years, So I've no idea what even

630
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:40,599
talks about Pope leo letter? What's his letter about? An

631
00:38:40,679 --> 00:38:42,239
emotional letter to.

632
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 4: Is this.

633
00:38:47,559 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: New or old to Jews? Is this it? Two days ago?

634
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:14,079
Leo's letter to all priests for Tell me now, I

635
00:39:14,119 --> 00:39:16,360
want to know what the letter is. Which letter? There's

636
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:17,880
a bunch of things coming up. I don't know which

637
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:18,400
one it is.

638
00:39:26,639 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 4: Me.

639
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,119
Speaker 1: Look, o J what's your opinion? What is your opinion?

640
00:39:29,159 --> 00:39:33,559
Ten dollars on be In? I think he's got mental problems.

641
00:39:33,599 --> 00:39:36,960
I would stay away, don oc two to six. Two dollars. Careful, Jay,

642
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,280
Superman's gonna get you up. Howdy. Five dollars give me

643
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:46,880
a tld R on schismatic Orthodox. It's not even worth

644
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,760
your time, man, It's just like twenty people on the internet.

645
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,400
It's not It's not even worth it. Greg the Brion

646
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:57,400
ten dollars, Thank you, gentlemen for this great stream. We

647
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,559
got some more callers here. Somebody tell me what the

648
00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:02,519
law the LEO letter is now. I want to know

649
00:40:02,519 --> 00:40:06,079
what this is. I'm not gonna sit here and read

650
00:40:07,159 --> 00:40:08,199
all of pots.

651
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,679
Speaker 4: I'm gonna bounce, man, Why.

652
00:40:10,519 --> 00:40:11,079
Speaker 1: Are you bouncing?

653
00:40:11,079 --> 00:40:11,199
Speaker 9: Now?

654
00:40:11,199 --> 00:40:13,039
Speaker 1: We are bout it. It's probably gonna get crazy. Now,

655
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,159
you gotta go. If you gotta go, you gotta go.

656
00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:19,519
It's fine. We'll see dude. Just do one or two more.

657
00:40:19,519 --> 00:40:21,079
I'll send you some money. Samurai, what's up?

658
00:40:21,199 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 4: Let's do a couple more.

659
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: Okay, Samurai, what's up? I'm you.

660
00:40:35,039 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 2: All right?

661
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: We lost him, tag Ormond. We're looking for people, by

662
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,119
the way, who disagree, So I'm gonna go. You get

663
00:40:47,199 --> 00:40:48,800
to the front of line if you disagree. What's up?

664
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: Man?

665
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: I still want to know what the letter is?

666
00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:00,519
Speaker 5: All right?

667
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,679
Speaker 1: These people, tad, I'm me it.

668
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:04,199
Speaker 2: What's up?

669
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: All right? Moving on? It's all the same people that

670
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,239
always call in. I'm looking guys. I looking for people

671
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,199
who disagree. So raise your end. If you disagree, I'll

672
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:28,639
go to you. Zoom Kant, I'm trying to go to you.

673
00:41:28,679 --> 00:41:31,440
Go ahead, and I'm you hey, man, can you hear me?

674
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:33,639
Speaker 4: All right?

675
00:41:33,679 --> 00:41:36,079
Speaker 9: First of all, thank you for taking my call. So

676
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,679
I'm still kind of halfway in when it comes to

677
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,320
like Catholicism. But before we get into it, I would

678
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,440
just like to clear up an analogy because I think

679
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,119
this is a very dangerous analogy and if it was

680
00:41:49,199 --> 00:41:51,679
very hopeful when it comes to my debate background when

681
00:41:51,679 --> 00:41:52,880
it comes to these things.

682
00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 2: Because you have to study it.

683
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,800
Speaker 9: First of all, you disagree with the cal L. Clark

684
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,719
Kenton Superman analogy.

685
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 1: Correct or No? Yeah? For multiple reasons.

686
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:03,519
Speaker 2: I do.

687
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think I'm gonna try and what do you call?

688
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:08,599
Speaker 2: This?

689
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 9: Package up everything to a more comprehensive way, because what

690
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,880
they were doing, even though I slowly go into the

691
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,119
Catholic site, is very problematic, right, and I think it's

692
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,800
very ubiquitous to every Catholic who watch that and why

693
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,800
they voted for you as the winner. Right, So, as possible,

694
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,840
I'd like to provide this very short clearing of the analogy.

695
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:29,599
Speaker 2: Would that be okay?

696
00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: Sure?

697
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,079
Speaker 9: Because the problem is they presented a false twin fallacy.

698
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:36,679
Speaker 4: Right.

699
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 9: The problem here is that they say Clark Kent is

700
00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:44,760
kal El. Superman is Kalel the Muslim see Superman and

701
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:45,960
we see Clark Kent.

702
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,039
Speaker 2: I think if you actually will, if they presented that

703
00:42:50,119 --> 00:42:52,599
to you, you instantly can't come up with a rebuttal.

704
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 9: But I think you should have agreed with them and

705
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,960
slammed them from the very beginning there, because what they're

706
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,719
presenting is they're presenting this analogy even though what they're

707
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,639
presenting in reality is a false twin dichotomy. Because if

708
00:43:05,639 --> 00:43:08,920
you actually ask Clark Kent, hey, Clark Kent, do you

709
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,360
believe that killing your enemies is actually will actually solve

710
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,599
the problem Clark Kent would say, no, I don't believe

711
00:43:16,639 --> 00:43:20,159
in killing my enemies. And if you ask Superman, hey, Superman,

712
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,239
do you believe in killing your enemies, and that it

713
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,760
would actually solve the problem. Superman would then say, no,

714
00:43:27,119 --> 00:43:29,519
I don't believe in killing my enemies because when you

715
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,440
what you unders need to understand here is God. God

716
00:43:32,519 --> 00:43:36,559
has two identifiers, external identifiers being there.

717
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:38,039
Speaker 2: He is the God of Moses.

718
00:43:38,199 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 9: He is the God of Abraham, and he has internal identifiers,

719
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,800
identifiers that indicate that it is him, even though you

720
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,280
don't know it's the God of Moses. That is Jesus

721
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:52,000
telling love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you,

722
00:43:52,039 --> 00:43:54,840
do good to those who do evil, to right. So

723
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,239
that's the internal and the external. What they're presenting is

724
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,639
a false twin dichotomy. I know it's a false twin fallacy,

725
00:44:01,679 --> 00:44:06,559
wherein they say you have a twin here, Twin A

726
00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:10,880
is the good person, Twin B is the twin of

727
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,599
twin A. Twin B looks like twin A. But here's

728
00:44:14,639 --> 00:44:17,840
the problem. If you date twin B, if you make

729
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,760
a child with twin B, even though you love twin A,

730
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,440
you're still making a child with Twin B. If you

731
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,119
ask Twin B if his principles are the same as

732
00:44:27,199 --> 00:44:31,239
Twin A, it will not be the same. They completely

733
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:36,599
externalize the identifier of God by removing the internal identifier

734
00:44:36,599 --> 00:44:38,440
of God, which completely.

735
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 6: Doesn'mates every single principle that the.

736
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 9: Catholic Roman Catholic stands for.

737
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 2: Do you see what I'm saying?

738
00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: Can you be more specific on what you mean by

739
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,440
an internal identifier because you use like Jesus talking about

740
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,159
loving your enemies and I'm trying to understand what you

741
00:44:54,199 --> 00:44:54,599
mean there.

742
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 9: So basically what the Church teaches is what I'm trying

743
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,400
to say, the values and principle that the Church teaches,

744
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,039
which completely goes against the doctrine of Islam.

745
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,599
Speaker 1: So you're saying that in identifying who the God is,

746
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,360
you can't divorce it from the ethics of the God.

747
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,280
Is everything is?

748
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:15,639
Speaker 4: Yes?

749
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 2: Yes, what the God teaches you to do with the God?

750
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: Yes? In fact, yeah, I was I would. I was

751
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,760
agreeing with that same idea when I was saying that

752
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,519
it's more like a set theory where what you believe

753
00:45:28,559 --> 00:45:31,679
about the deity is like a set of numbers. I'm

754
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,960
just making an analogy here. So let's say I have

755
00:45:34,039 --> 00:45:36,679
a set with ten numbers in it. If I remove

756
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,400
one of those numbers, even though a lot of the

757
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,360
other numbers are similar, it's still a different set. So

758
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,719
it's mutually exclusive. So you're correct if you say that

759
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:52,119
I worship love and adore the God of Abraham, but

760
00:45:52,199 --> 00:45:55,159
I believe that the God of Abraham tells me to

761
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,719
kill my enemies, and he creates evil as an actual

762
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,000
ontological thing.

763
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 2: And he's deceive and.

764
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,199
Speaker 1: He deceives, he's the best of deceivers. Then clearly that

765
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,519
is not the same reference as Abraham's got in reality.

766
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 2: You know what the other problem is too, is that

767
00:46:12,679 --> 00:46:16,119
when you construct a fictional story, you put yourself in

768
00:46:16,159 --> 00:46:18,440
an omnission mood.

769
00:46:18,559 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a great point, and that's the thing in

770
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:20,960
question is.

771
00:46:21,639 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like we're on the other side, right, and

772
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,519
we're trying to determine we don't know, right, We can't

773
00:46:28,559 --> 00:46:34,719
actually see that. So there, they've already begged the question.

774
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:40,400
Assume what they wanted to prove that the same deity.

775
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:45,280
They can just be wrong, but it's question, right, So

776
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,840
what do they do? Well, let me create a fictional

777
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:52,519
narrative about a man named Superman, which this case actually works.

778
00:46:52,639 --> 00:46:55,199
It's like, how ridiculous is that?

779
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 1: Again? I think that my Bill Cosby analogy is the

780
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:03,320
one that's accurate saying the way the Bible is presenting

781
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,880
the false gods. Go ahead, what's up? Man Cyrus? All right?

782
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,559
He can't, he can't connect, But thank you for the

783
00:47:08,559 --> 00:47:12,039
dick and I agree that was That's exactly what we

784
00:47:12,039 --> 00:47:24,199
were getting at. Tracts. What's up? Tracts? And then Dylan,

785
00:47:24,559 --> 00:47:43,000
go ahead, Dylan, I'm you, h Dylan, do you want

786
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,239
to talk? Owen Owen, I'm you.

787
00:47:48,079 --> 00:47:54,639
Speaker 10: Hey, Guys, I have a disagreement. Okay, I'm presenting it

788
00:47:54,679 --> 00:47:57,440
on the behalf of someone who's not willing to come

789
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,000
on the show.

790
00:47:59,039 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 2: A friend of mine.

791
00:48:00,119 --> 00:48:04,599
Speaker 10: I'm an Orthodox catechumen, and I have a friend who

792
00:48:04,679 --> 00:48:07,400
made the bold claim which I disagree with.

793
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 2: He made the bold.

794
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 10: Claim that epistem propositional knowing is not relevant and can

795
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:21,199
be discarded within the Orthodox framework. And I wanted to

796
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,599
know what's the best way to tackle that proposition?

797
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, why would Saint Gregory Palamus write the

798
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:34,360
Apodictic Treatise on the Holy Spirit using apidictic logic of

799
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:39,920
Aristotle to argue against the Phillyoquey, if conceptual knowledge was

800
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,840
to be discarded. I mean, all of the dogmas in

801
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:49,840
the Orthodox Councils are listed and explained conceptually. So the

802
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:54,360
idea that concepts are bad is silly. They're just not

803
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,880
the highest of what we are aiming for and shooting

804
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,840
for as Orthodox Christians. We want direct experience to participation

805
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,840
in God, not just knowing about God, but knowing.

806
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 2: About proper order. It doesn't mean that second and third

807
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:11,119
things are bad, right, So people cam nuances and so

808
00:49:11,199 --> 00:49:14,639
they're just like, oh, the most important thing is it's

809
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:21,039
this or nothing right, So it's just intellectual and spiritual laziness. Also,

810
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,440
I want to bring up too, because I saw this

811
00:49:23,639 --> 00:49:27,400
so many minute criticism me that oh, well, the father

812
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:32,000
deacon Nys was used in twentieth century analytic philosophy to

813
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:36,679
answer his people and stuff like that. Don't forget that

814
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:45,079
Saint Gregory, the theologian, Saint Gregory Nazis received the same criticism, yeah,

815
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,800
and that he was like, oh, that he was talking

816
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,880
to philosophers and using their language and he was learned

817
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:56,199
in philosophy. He was receiving the same criticism, and he

818
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:01,039
responded back when speaking to philosophers speak in a way

819
00:50:01,079 --> 00:50:06,679
that you can win you know, speak philosophies basically philosopher over.

820
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,760
So there's no canons to say I can't use twentieth

821
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:15,719
century analytic philosophy to speak to analytic philosophers that they

822
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,559
might win them over to the truth. And so there's

823
00:50:18,559 --> 00:50:23,199
something similar with that too, like obviously with this, you know,

824
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,119
and the gospel reading today was literally from Matthews, seek

825
00:50:27,159 --> 00:50:30,719
first the Kingdom of God. So it's about priorities, like

826
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:36,800
we don't put intellectualization philosophy first, but like, don't be

827
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:41,039
so immature in childlike to be like, well, you know,

828
00:50:41,119 --> 00:50:44,639
it's either this or nothing. It's like it has the place.

829
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,800
This is the third and fourth place, and you speak

830
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:52,719
to people in a language they they can understand, right,

831
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,760
and everybody is saying Demetro's Standale says that you know,

832
00:50:58,119 --> 00:51:02,199
every philosopher might get something wrong and so far as

833
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,079
they hit the truth right.

834
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 4: So I just feel like it's spiritual.

835
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,800
Speaker 2: And intellectual laziness to be like, well, there's no it's

836
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:13,360
I'm either or like you've got to disregard this.

837
00:51:14,039 --> 00:51:19,280
Speaker 1: And also it's also it's it's important, it's party signaling.

838
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:25,199
It's insecurity, and it's also christologically wrong because Jesus didn't

839
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,920
reject having a rational mind. In fact, he assumed a

840
00:51:29,039 --> 00:51:33,760
rational human mind, and every rational human mind has concepts.

841
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,719
So the idea of tossing out conceptual knowledge because it's

842
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,440
not the highest knowledge is just kind of silly. Han,

843
00:51:40,559 --> 00:51:48,719
what's up, I'm your.

844
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 5: Hi Jay?

845
00:51:52,119 --> 00:51:54,280
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for having me on.

846
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 11: I've really been enjoying listening to your analysis of Yahweh

847
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,679
and Abraham. So I wanted to kind of go a

848
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:07,559
little further into that and try to try to understand

849
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:14,199
the trinity from your perspective, and uh that the trinity

850
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:18,079
is basically defined as three persons in one being or

851
00:52:18,199 --> 00:52:23,000
one one God. I want to understand what is your

852
00:52:23,039 --> 00:52:26,199
definition of person? And this is leading to something. What

853
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:27,519
is your definition of person?

854
00:52:28,599 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 1: An orthodox Christian theology? A person is a subject or

855
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:32,400
an agent?

856
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 2: A subject or an agent? Okay?

857
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:37,679
Speaker 4: Does does a person have their.

858
00:52:37,679 --> 00:52:42,079
Speaker 2: Subject or agent has in essence? It has properties? So

859
00:52:42,199 --> 00:52:46,199
even grammatically speaking, like all predicates belong to a subject.

860
00:52:47,199 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 4: Okay.

861
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 11: So in your theology, does a person have their own mind?

862
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 2: A person has a mind. Yes, a person has a mind.

863
00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:01,639
Speaker 11: So are there anything Are there any persons that do

864
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:08,320
not have their own mind? No, no, okay, is a

865
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:09,800
business legally a person?

866
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:11,159
Speaker 12: No?

867
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,119
Speaker 1: Well, legally they might be treated as but they are

868
00:53:15,159 --> 00:53:16,719
not ontologically a person.

869
00:53:17,519 --> 00:53:20,639
Speaker 11: Okay, they're they're legally a person, but not ontologically a person, okay.

870
00:53:22,039 --> 00:53:27,519
Is so I guess that the question is then, is

871
00:53:28,079 --> 00:53:31,119
how many divine minds are in the trinity?

872
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,159
Speaker 2: One one?

873
00:53:34,079 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 11: Now, if there are three persons and a person has

874
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:42,119
their own mind, how does that work with being one

875
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:43,320
mind in the trinity?

876
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 1: Because that one mind exists in a different mode between

877
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,800
the persons. So each person has that one mind uniquely

878
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:55,000
in the mode of being the son, of being the Father,

879
00:53:55,079 --> 00:53:57,199
and being the spirit, just like the will of God

880
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,880
is one that exists in the mode of the three

881
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,199
persons that have it. So properties of nature like mind

882
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:08,639
and will are common, but exist in a unique mode.

883
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 2: And also, I would say too, unlike us, our persons

884
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:20,519
are contingent upon and determined by Like we don't have

885
00:54:20,599 --> 00:54:25,400
a personhood apart from our material instantiation of our essence

886
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:32,119
of humanity. So that's why we have separate minds. So

887
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:37,679
in philosophy, and although we can share a common essence,

888
00:54:38,679 --> 00:54:43,840
the principle of individuation is separation is a material instantiation.

889
00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:49,400
But because the trinity exists prior to that, obviously the

890
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:57,119
second person's incarnation, right, mind is a property of the nature,

891
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,000
the essence of God, and exists in a unique mode

892
00:55:00,199 --> 00:55:05,000
each person. They can all share one mind without actually

893
00:55:05,079 --> 00:55:06,400
being distinct like us.

894
00:55:07,039 --> 00:55:07,800
Speaker 4: Does it make sense?

895
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 13: Do you realize what you're doing is equivocating?

896
00:55:11,159 --> 00:55:17,679
Speaker 11: No, because if if there's three persons in the trinity,

897
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:22,199
a person has their own mind, then there's three minds.

898
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 13: In the trinity.

899
00:55:22,519 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 4: I just said, do not equate.

900
00:55:25,559 --> 00:55:31,760
Speaker 2: I give the principle that separates equivocation between created person's

901
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,679
immateial and stantiations.

902
00:55:34,039 --> 00:55:35,599
Speaker 4: Versus persons in the trinity.

903
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 2: So you can't use the objection of equivocation with me.

904
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,079
I literally knew you were going to go that way

905
00:55:42,519 --> 00:55:47,440
and block that by actually bringing up that point. So like, no,

906
00:55:48,079 --> 00:55:53,199
the principle of individuation is matter, right, So not personhood,

907
00:55:53,679 --> 00:55:58,039
I said, with our personhoods, because our essence or individuated

908
00:55:58,039 --> 00:56:03,840
and matter, it separates, but that persons whould exist transcendent

909
00:56:04,079 --> 00:56:07,280
in the trinity to matter. So no, you can't use

910
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:08,559
that objection. I'm sorry.

911
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 11: Okay, So see I want to make this point because

912
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:17,519
this is distinctly what separates your theology of the Trinity

913
00:56:17,599 --> 00:56:20,880
with the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of

914
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,880
Latter day Saints.

915
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 1: Okay, let's uh, let's talk about that, because.

916
00:56:28,519 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 11: We give each of these persons their own mind. Okay, no,

917
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:33,320
but no, where.

918
00:56:33,119 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 1: I want to But but this, none, none of this

919
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,320
matters because for you, God is a man who's a

920
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,519
creature who evolved to become God. So this is preposterous.

921
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:45,440
You're with and again, does your does your church teach

922
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:47,639
that God the Father is a man with a body

923
00:56:47,679 --> 00:56:49,039
who evolved to become God.

924
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:51,199
Speaker 13: This is about mine.

925
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,199
Speaker 1: So you're not going to talk about are.

926
00:56:53,079 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 2: You familiar with it? You're ignoring that.

927
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 1: He's not going to answer it. If you don't answer questions,

928
00:56:59,519 --> 00:57:00,519
then you get dude.

929
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 2: Matter versus prior to matter, and your whole theology is

930
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:09,320
based on matter man becoming God. So you're never going

931
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,400
to win this argument. Congratulations.

932
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 1: I already booted him because he won't answer the question.

933
00:57:15,199 --> 00:57:17,440
Tracks that travel I was kicked out of the Twitter space.

934
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,039
I didn't kick you out. I want to talk about

935
00:57:20,039 --> 00:57:23,079
the seventy weeks of Daniel prophecy. I mean, I'm a

936
00:57:23,119 --> 00:57:26,800
preterist in that text, so it was fulfilled at the

937
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:30,000
first advent, as the text clearly says banana team for

938
00:57:30,079 --> 00:57:33,519
three dollars. Jay, I wasn't saying it was Leo's letter.

939
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,000
I was saying, Michael Luften did a response to you,

940
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:38,719
the papal bull that you brought up in the debate.

941
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:43,280
He says, it's not magisterial. I mean, they always say

942
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:48,480
it's not magisterial, So I mean, but that begs the question,

943
00:57:48,599 --> 00:57:51,000
doesn't it. What is the criteria to know when it

944
00:57:51,039 --> 00:57:53,519
isn't isn't magisterial and they don't know. They can't tell you,

945
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,440
soap drinker, So raise your red if you disagree, I'm

946
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:58,599
going to people who disagree. And if you won't answer

947
00:57:59,119 --> 00:58:01,719
questions that are erect questions like that. Notice we answered

948
00:58:01,719 --> 00:58:04,280
his direct questions, every one of them. As soon as

949
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:06,320
I asked him about God the Father being a man

950
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:08,800
with a body who evolved and who is a creature,

951
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,719
he ignored it twice. So so yeah, so what's up?

952
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for letting me on. I'm just here because.

953
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,639
Speaker 14: Sadly after or you actually said that we shouldn't be

954
00:58:23,719 --> 00:58:27,480
listening to Sam anymore because he is like like he's

955
00:58:27,519 --> 00:58:30,119
you know, Iffy, And there is something that he said

956
00:58:30,119 --> 00:58:31,559
that I thought was really.

957
00:58:33,039 --> 00:58:35,079
Speaker 2: I think that was very important. He said that, like,

958
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:40,719
so if you if somebody does like something.

959
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:42,519
Speaker 15: Bad to you, you don't have to.

960
00:58:42,519 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 2: Forgive them unless they ask for forgiveness.

961
00:58:46,519 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 6: Is that true?

962
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:52,639
Speaker 2: Because this is no can I skip and j So

963
00:58:53,079 --> 00:58:59,559
this is what my Montanica therapy workshop was with Father Turbo.

964
00:59:00,239 --> 00:59:06,000
What forgiveness is. So forgiveness isn't no not you're sorry.

965
00:59:06,519 --> 00:59:09,960
It doesn't do anything to the person, so the person

966
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:15,000
doesn't have to actually be sorry. Forgiveness is a release

967
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,480
from the captivity of the memory of the past. So

968
00:59:20,519 --> 00:59:26,400
what forgiveness really does, just like any release from sin,

969
00:59:26,679 --> 00:59:32,159
is released you from captivity. So it doesn't mean don't

970
00:59:32,199 --> 00:59:35,360
you know, ignore or forget don't remember.

971
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,119
Speaker 4: You remember it, but you're not.

972
00:59:38,199 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 2: Held captive by that. You release yourself right, because it's

973
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:47,960
all about theosis, right and acquiring the virtues. So whether

974
00:59:48,119 --> 00:59:54,480
somebody actually wants they're sorry, what's forgiveness? You can forgive

975
00:59:54,559 --> 00:59:59,840
somebody because forgiveness is about actually your ontological in terms

976
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:03,760
of your state of your character and virtues, releasing you

977
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:06,800
from what would hold you captive from progressing suits that

978
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,400
you say, I released myself from the memory of that.

979
01:00:10,039 --> 01:00:13,559
I still remember it, but I'm not being held captive

980
01:00:13,559 --> 01:00:13,880
by it.

981
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, you could forgive people even if they don't add

982
01:00:17,159 --> 01:00:21,800
ask for uh, you know, forgiveness, because you want to

983
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:23,480
do that. That's going to be in the best interest

984
01:00:23,519 --> 01:00:25,559
for you, not just for your salvation, but also as

985
01:00:25,559 --> 01:00:28,440
far as you can stand so you're not imprisoned to

986
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,159
you know, resentment and hatred. So you forgive them so

987
01:00:32,199 --> 01:00:35,840
that you can be free. But that doesn't mean that

988
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:38,079
you let people walk all over you. You do not

989
01:00:38,239 --> 01:00:42,639
have to keep interacting with somebody who is abusing their boundaries.

990
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 2: You can cut somebody off. You're just no longer held

991
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:51,639
captive by this. Every sin is holding you captive, right,

992
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:57,760
So that's why the unforgivable sin is unforgived, like the

993
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:02,119
unwillingness to to repent us and forgiveness and all of

994
01:01:02,119 --> 01:01:06,079
this wrapped up its captivity is what it is. It's like,

995
01:01:06,159 --> 01:01:09,199
you will you can't progress to become like God if

996
01:01:09,199 --> 01:01:13,119
you're held captive by So we forgive others even as

997
01:01:13,159 --> 01:01:16,800
God forgives us, and if we don't, will be held

998
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:20,159
captive and judged by the same standard, because that's who

999
01:01:20,199 --> 01:01:25,280
we are. So it's not that God sentences us. It's

1000
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:29,800
literally just an ontological declaration that like, you're held captive,

1001
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:33,920
and you're not like me, because I'm free from captivity

1002
01:01:34,559 --> 01:01:38,400
and then released myself from from a hold captive of anything,

1003
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:43,320
whether distractions, any sins or passions. And that's what forgives.

1004
01:01:43,519 --> 01:01:45,159
That's why we forgive.

1005
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:47,599
Speaker 1: Brax and bull at five dollars a day. Explaining to

1006
01:01:47,599 --> 01:01:50,199
Ezekil thirty seven, it's brought up by dispensationalists. Yeah, I mean,

1007
01:01:50,199 --> 01:01:55,039
there's nothing about this that is literally about like modern Palestine, nation,

1008
01:01:55,159 --> 01:01:59,679
state of Israel. This is talking about the Theophany. By

1009
01:01:59,679 --> 01:02:01,880
the way, it's the presence of the Holy Spirit here

1010
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:03,480
in the Old Testaments, I know it is the third

1011
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:08,039
person here. It's a triadic passage. We have the Father

1012
01:02:08,159 --> 01:02:11,400
here or Yahweh here, and we have his spirit coming

1013
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:15,119
upon the valley of the dry bones, and the prophecy

1014
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:19,480
that these will all be resurrected. So in the teaching

1015
01:02:19,519 --> 01:02:22,840
of the church fathers, this is usually applied to different things.

1016
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:27,960
It's an application to baptism and being raised spiritually from

1017
01:02:28,039 --> 01:02:32,159
the dead. It is also a prophecy of Pentecost and

1018
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:36,719
the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecosts upon those who will

1019
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:39,559
be empowered to go forth. I will put my spirit

1020
01:02:39,599 --> 01:02:42,039
in you, and you will live. And it is also

1021
01:02:42,159 --> 01:02:45,360
a prediction of the end of the world, the final

1022
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:49,280
day resurrection, when we will all be resurrected to glory

1023
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:53,280
and vindicated in the Kingdom. And thus that one kingdom

1024
01:02:53,559 --> 01:02:57,480
is the Church of God. So dispensationalists will make all

1025
01:02:57,559 --> 01:03:01,480
this apply to some nonsense. We're in the nation state

1026
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:05,639
of Israel right now. When the promise of a singular

1027
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:10,480
united kingdom, the two sticks here that will not be parted.

1028
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:14,039
They will never be divided into two kingdoms. And God

1029
01:03:14,079 --> 01:03:16,159
says I will be the king, their king, and they

1030
01:03:16,199 --> 01:03:20,280
will be my people. David, my servant, will reign over them.

1031
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:23,880
That's Jesus. Jesus is the David servant that will be

1032
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:27,480
the prince of this kingdom. The Tabernacle that is forever

1033
01:03:27,679 --> 01:03:30,800
with us. All of this is interpreted in the Book

1034
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:37,079
of Acts to be the first Advent and to be Pentecost.

1035
01:03:38,239 --> 01:03:42,960
Is it always get this mixed up because it's talking

1036
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:52,000
about the Tabernacle of David, which is Acts fifteen sixty.

1037
01:03:52,000 --> 01:04:01,440
Excuse me, so when Peter starts preaching about the same

1038
01:04:01,679 --> 01:04:06,159
promises and the same expectation of this uniting of the

1039
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,920
kingdom as chatologically, it's not the end of the world. Ultimately,

1040
01:04:11,559 --> 01:04:14,519
it is the first Advent, when Jesus brought the end

1041
01:04:14,519 --> 01:04:18,840
of days, brought the rebuilding of the Tabernacle, which is

1042
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:23,280
the resurrection of Jesus's own body. Jesus's physical body is

1043
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:27,239
the Tabernacle of David that's restored. The Church is the Kingdom,

1044
01:04:27,239 --> 01:04:29,599
which is the true union, which will never be divided.

1045
01:04:30,159 --> 01:04:33,159
That's what Ezekil thirty seven is about. It's the first Advent,

1046
01:04:33,239 --> 01:04:36,159
and it's Pentecost, but it does look forward to a

1047
01:04:36,239 --> 01:04:41,800
bodily resurrection in the eschatological final Kingdom, where Jesus is

1048
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:44,480
in all and through all. As Paul says in Corinthians,

1049
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:49,719
I raise your id. You disagree, and I'll go to you.

1050
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:54,119
I want to go to people that disagree first. And

1051
01:04:54,159 --> 01:04:55,880
by the way, if you're like the Mormon dude, and

1052
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:58,760
we answer all your questions and then you ignore our

1053
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:04,119
questions twice, you'll get rid of anybody disagree. Raziam. We

1054
01:05:04,239 --> 01:05:08,599
got twelve people on line what's up, Ragiam. Dylan disagrees.

1055
01:05:08,639 --> 01:05:12,199
What's up, Dylan, I'm your.

1056
01:05:16,039 --> 01:05:19,119
Speaker 2: Hello, Yeah, how's it going.

1057
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 16: I I sent that chat in earlier.

1058
01:05:25,079 --> 01:05:28,719
Speaker 2: Oh c b aa whatever laser turtle there.

1059
01:05:30,159 --> 01:05:35,880
Speaker 16: But yeah, my my way to faith has been unorthodox

1060
01:05:36,039 --> 01:05:39,880
and kind of that sense of the word, but from

1061
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:45,320
like a material logical standpoint in terms of being saved

1062
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:51,039
and salvation and everything. You know, I found a kind

1063
01:05:51,079 --> 01:05:53,119
of theological dead end.

1064
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:55,440
Speaker 4: In uh a A.

1065
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:58,039
Speaker 17: I'm not sure to what except you're familiar with that,

1066
01:05:58,159 --> 01:06:04,079
but it's kind of a non religious path to God, which.

1067
01:06:04,079 --> 01:06:06,599
Speaker 1: Yes, we did a one podcast and I'm familiar with

1068
01:06:06,639 --> 01:06:07,480
the basics.

1069
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:13,639
Speaker 17: Yeah, and you know, but there's there's kind of a

1070
01:06:13,639 --> 01:06:15,960
dead end to it. And the more I've kind of

1071
01:06:16,119 --> 01:06:17,599
researched and read.

1072
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:20,639
Speaker 2: Into some of the.

1073
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 17: Early kind of church and that all that sort of stuff,

1074
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:27,800
being that it can be borderline gnosticism and it's not

1075
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:33,039
long term fulfilling and I'm just like constantly searching grasps.

1076
01:06:33,079 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 1: Okay, well, I mean I would say, check out an

1077
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:37,559
orthodox church. I appreciate you coming on. That's not really

1078
01:06:37,599 --> 01:06:40,840
a disagreement though, so I'm looking for who disagree, Yeah,

1079
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:45,320
just check out a look at Orthodox Church, Trey, Matthew First, Praezer,

1080
01:06:45,519 --> 01:06:48,480
Caleb Slinger to any of all disagree, raise your hand,

1081
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:57,599
We'll go to you. Nobody disagrees, mister White, do you disagree?

1082
01:06:58,039 --> 01:06:58,880
Trey disagrees?

1083
01:07:00,199 --> 01:07:00,559
Speaker 9: What's up?

1084
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:01,679
Speaker 5: Hello?

1085
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:05,239
Speaker 1: Okay?

1086
01:07:05,599 --> 01:07:06,119
Speaker 2: Can you hear me?

1087
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:08,280
Speaker 4: Hey man? What's up?

1088
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:15,719
Speaker 1: One at a time? Mister White? First? Go ahead, mister White.

1089
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 4: Oh hi, hello? Yeah? What's up?

1090
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:25,519
Speaker 1: All right? Moving on wasting our time in the beginning tray,

1091
01:07:25,599 --> 01:07:26,039
what's up?

1092
01:07:27,119 --> 01:07:27,320
Speaker 2: Hello?

1093
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 1: Yah? Yeah? What's up?

1094
01:07:34,639 --> 01:07:34,719
Speaker 2: Now?

1095
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:38,119
Speaker 15: I'm just inquiring into both Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

1096
01:07:38,159 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 4: I saw the debate.

1097
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:41,119
Speaker 2: I guess I'm going to try and see if.

1098
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:43,639
Speaker 15: I can kind of, in my own mind just kind

1099
01:07:43,639 --> 01:07:46,000
of steal me in the Catholic position. I've been listening,

1100
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:48,119
you know, to what you've been saying. So hope we

1101
01:07:48,159 --> 01:07:50,639
don't bring up something that you've kind of been, you know, listening.

1102
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:51,239
Speaker 4: While I'm on a walk.

1103
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:57,320
Speaker 15: Okay, But wouldn't wouldn't the position it would kind of

1104
01:07:57,320 --> 01:08:00,440
relate back into what was that kind of baptism with desire,

1105
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:03,639
wouldn't it? Like I understand that like they could be

1106
01:08:03,679 --> 01:08:07,599
relating to like I love Clark Kent and then like

1107
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:11,079
you're saying, I love Clark Kent too, but you think

1108
01:08:11,119 --> 01:08:12,920
Clark Kent is the actual Superman.

1109
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:17,600
Speaker 1: But then I know this analogy doesn't This analogy doesn't

1110
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:20,800
work because Islam is not I wasn't I.

1111
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:22,520
Speaker 15: Wasn't gonna repeat their analogy. I was gonna I have

1112
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:25,399
a different one. So what I just said it backwards. Sorry.

1113
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:27,079
What I was saying is that we're both saying that

1114
01:08:27,119 --> 01:08:30,279
we love Superman. You think Clark Kent is Superman, but

1115
01:08:30,399 --> 01:08:33,960
I think this random baby is Superman. So our reference

1116
01:08:34,079 --> 01:08:36,760
is actually different, even though we think it is the same.

1117
01:08:37,199 --> 01:08:39,800
But would that not be covered under the baptism of

1118
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:41,720
desire kind of kind of thought?

1119
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:44,239
Speaker 1: How is the baptism of desire which is based around

1120
01:08:44,279 --> 01:08:46,520
invincible ignorance or right?

1121
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:47,279
Speaker 4: That's what I mean?

1122
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:49,640
Speaker 2: Like, like, if you are choosing the good.

1123
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:54,159
Speaker 1: Again, the Muslim possession is not ignorance. It is predicated

1124
01:08:54,239 --> 01:08:57,560
on an explicit rejection of the Trinity and the deed

1125
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:01,720
of Christ. Mm hmmm, So it's not the invincible ignorance position.

1126
01:09:02,359 --> 01:09:05,399
Speaker 15: Okay, Okay, And so you because I grew up Protestant,

1127
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:07,479
and so you grew in a Protestant, did you have

1128
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:11,079
the similar experience where like you kind of just didn't

1129
01:09:11,079 --> 01:09:13,039
even know what orthodoxy was.

1130
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:14,800
Speaker 4: You know, and so how could you know?

1131
01:09:16,119 --> 01:09:16,600
Speaker 1: What do you mean?

1132
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:17,159
Speaker 4: You know what I mean?

1133
01:09:17,359 --> 01:09:20,760
Speaker 15: Well, because you know there's the whole thing of ecclesium.

1134
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:22,960
You know, there's no salvation outside the church, and so

1135
01:09:23,079 --> 01:09:25,000
but what if you just don't know it even exst

1136
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:26,239
But I.

1137
01:09:26,199 --> 01:09:30,880
Speaker 1: Mean that, But that's different from pointing to the dogmatic contradiction.

1138
01:09:31,079 --> 01:09:34,079
So I might agree with a Roman Catholic that there's

1139
01:09:34,079 --> 01:09:36,239
such a thing as baptism and desire, and their Eastern

1140
01:09:36,319 --> 01:09:39,359
church fathers talk about that, and they talk about baptism

1141
01:09:39,399 --> 01:09:44,399
of blood, et cetera. But that's different from saying, okay,

1142
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:47,079
but Muslims, Christians, and Jews therefore worship the same God.

1143
01:09:47,279 --> 01:09:50,960
You can't get from invincible ignorance and baptism and desire too,

1144
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:54,560
we all worship the same God when Islam is predicated

1145
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:58,479
on specifically rejecting it. So it's no longer about they've rejected,

1146
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:01,960
the desire's gone, Like they're saying, I don't desire that God.

1147
01:10:02,039 --> 01:10:06,319
That's Islam. And that's the false equivalence that Muslims that

1148
01:10:06,399 --> 01:10:08,800
Roman Catholics are saying, is like, well, what's wrong with

1149
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:11,479
about desire, And I mean, I'm not making fun of you,

1150
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:14,319
but like many of them have made the same kind

1151
01:10:14,319 --> 01:10:17,840
of line of argument. It's like that would work if

1152
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:19,880
you wanted to make if you if you restricted your

1153
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:24,279
argument to invincibly ignorant pagans, maybe you can make an

1154
01:10:24,359 --> 01:10:27,000
argument there if you're for the Roman Catholic position. But

1155
01:10:27,079 --> 01:10:30,359
this is a Muslim, which is a religion predicated on

1156
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:32,159
explicitly rejecting the Trinity.

1157
01:10:33,159 --> 01:10:41,600
Speaker 18: Jake, I was just so wondering about what it seems like,

1158
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:47,079
like why do you like like brush off the true

1159
01:10:47,239 --> 01:10:51,680
Orthodoxy people? I Protestants just like to use that as

1160
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:53,760
a talking point. It would seem good for you to

1161
01:10:54,319 --> 01:10:56,600
properly address and the people address.

1162
01:10:57,039 --> 01:11:01,039
Speaker 1: It's been addressed by David uh Ahon years ago. And

1163
01:11:01,079 --> 01:11:04,720
I don't have to redo all the stuff that David addressed.

1164
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 2: We could do it really years ago. Like Orthodoxy includes

1165
01:11:10,119 --> 01:11:15,039
uh uh sy right, Like you can't. Well they said

1166
01:11:15,039 --> 01:11:15,560
that they.

1167
01:11:15,399 --> 01:11:19,560
Speaker 1: Have, Well they said that, but their synod was basically

1168
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:23,880
two people in Europe, so one of him was dead.

1169
01:11:24,079 --> 01:11:24,960
What's up, Singer.

1170
01:11:25,119 --> 01:11:29,720
Speaker 2: They're not recognized by any legitimate Orthodox right, so you

1171
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:33,000
can't whatever problems are going to the church. You can't

1172
01:11:33,039 --> 01:11:35,760
skuz him and be like, well, and again it's a

1173
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:39,880
very Western problem to make everything abstract and be like, well, see,

1174
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:43,039
I have the true faith and propositional form, and I'll

1175
01:11:43,159 --> 01:11:48,880
split out from the incarnational community of the Orthodox Church.

1176
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:51,279
And it's yeah, which.

1177
01:11:51,159 --> 01:11:55,119
Speaker 1: Is exactly Kyle ten dollars. Why does Romanthosism do this

1178
01:11:55,119 --> 01:11:57,720
to people? Cameron seem reasonable before he was Roman Catholic.

1179
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:00,159
Now he's defending all this nonsense. Well, I mean, you

1180
01:12:00,199 --> 01:12:02,880
guys are overlooking the possibility that some people were just grifters.

1181
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:05,920
Sam went from saying that Muslims worship demons to saying

1182
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:07,840
that now Muslim's worse of the true God. Well, I

1183
01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:11,800
mean he's buying into May's the way He's got a

1184
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:14,439
defend it, right, and again, maybe all they're all grifters.

1185
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:16,840
Who knows? Michelo j Five dollars Do I have to read?

1186
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:19,880
That's what they're Collagwood one to read three? No, uh,

1187
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:24,359
Mercado five. They they're independent books. They're just different films

1188
01:12:24,399 --> 01:12:27,920
and different structures of which films are analyzed by themes.

1189
01:12:28,039 --> 01:12:30,600
Mercado five dollars. Thank you for helping an ignorant Protestant

1190
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:34,560
find the true faith. Is an absurd amount of infighting

1191
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:36,840
that you get from these papists or ship fight. Yeah,

1192
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:40,159
they're it's it's unfortunate. I actually feel sorry for the

1193
01:12:40,199 --> 01:12:42,920
Roman Colo's had to remind myself of this today at

1194
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:46,239
church is like, you know, I remembered what it's like

1195
01:12:46,359 --> 01:12:49,720
being a miserable trad cat and that's where all these

1196
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:51,920
people are. Suko ten dollars.

1197
01:12:52,239 --> 01:12:52,520
Speaker 2: Sorry.

1198
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:55,319
Speaker 1: The YouTube autocracked is crazy. I was trying to say,

1199
01:12:55,319 --> 01:12:57,600
Michael Lofton made a response to your claims about the

1200
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:00,920
Pope and the first Crusade. I'm not I don't really

1201
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:04,920
care what Lofton does. Honestly, Guys like like I was saying,

1202
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:06,600
I'm always going to be doing open for him. So

1203
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:09,520
anybody who wants to call in if their Catholic, can

1204
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:12,960
do that. But there's no more public Roman Catholics that

1205
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:16,039
are worth debating. Somebody said we need debate Matditics. I've

1206
01:13:16,079 --> 01:13:18,600
been asking Jerry to debate for like seven or eight years,

1207
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:23,159
and he always puts it off. I might still do

1208
01:13:23,199 --> 01:13:25,039
the Tim Gordon one, because I've already said I would

1209
01:13:25,039 --> 01:13:28,000
do it if we find a big platform that will

1210
01:13:28,039 --> 01:13:30,359
not be obviously, I'll never go on Cameron's channel again.

1211
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:35,560
So if we find a big platform, I'll do the

1212
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:38,479
formal debate with him. But I mean, I mean, there's

1213
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:41,840
just no These were supposed to be the two top

1214
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:47,920
tier philosopher professor Roman Catholics, and so then everybody else

1215
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:50,079
is like, yoga, what about this other guy? Well, why

1216
01:13:50,119 --> 01:13:52,720
would I go a tier down? Those are supposed to

1217
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:53,399
be the top tier.

1218
01:13:55,199 --> 01:13:58,079
Speaker 2: So and that's what Cameron did. He brought what he

1219
01:13:58,159 --> 01:13:58,800
thought was gonna be.

1220
01:13:58,960 --> 01:14:00,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, Cameron thought he was bring in the top tier.

1221
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:03,039
And I mean so like, it's just like when the

1222
01:14:03,119 --> 01:14:06,199
Muslim the Muslims did this. You didn't debate the real Muslim,

1223
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:09,039
the real apologists. You're scared of Shaik so and so,

1224
01:14:09,079 --> 01:14:11,319
who you've never heard of, by the way, you're scared

1225
01:14:11,319 --> 01:14:13,720
of the hidden Hi Mom. You won't debate him. It's

1226
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:18,800
like the no true emom fallacy, Like you can't you

1227
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:20,680
haven't debated the real Muslim. It's and then when you

1228
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:23,399
debate all the Muslims, it's like there's nobody else to debate.

1229
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:26,399
I tried to get Muhammed a job to do it,

1230
01:14:26,399 --> 01:14:28,479
and he wouldn't do it. So I wasn't I didn't

1231
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:32,920
have enough clout sos. Same in the Roman Catholic world,

1232
01:14:33,159 --> 01:14:39,079
there's not anyone else there. There's nobody else left. People

1233
01:14:39,079 --> 01:14:42,359
are saying Ruslan, No, in the Roman Catholic world, there's

1234
01:14:42,359 --> 01:14:46,720
no more Roman Catholic public apologists. That's why I'm saying

1235
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:52,399
I don't need to debate any public Roman Catholics anymore

1236
01:14:52,439 --> 01:14:55,600
because there aren't any. They're done, like, there's not another

1237
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:58,399
one to do. Voice of reasons not going to do it.

1238
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:03,000
And we saw their top two be basically childish crashouts,

1239
01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:07,199
so we're done. Like that's the final boss defeated. Dude,

1240
01:15:07,279 --> 01:15:09,880
I don't have to play Zelda all over again. Already beginning,

1241
01:15:11,159 --> 01:15:14,279
I'm being silly, But let's talk. Got ten dollars Pope

1242
01:15:14,319 --> 01:15:19,920
Leo the fourteenth and Jelous address June twenty June ninth,

1243
01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:22,720
twenty twenty five. We can speak of acumenism of blood

1244
01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:25,600
that is unseen and profound, a unity amongst Christian Church

1245
01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:28,119
is not yet full and visible. Yeah, I mean that's

1246
01:15:28,159 --> 01:15:33,119
just standard ecumenism. Laser Turtle production two dollars. I was

1247
01:15:33,119 --> 01:15:37,239
away from your desk, Dylan in the Twitter chat. Okay, well,

1248
01:15:37,239 --> 01:15:40,159
if you're disagreeing, you'll go to the front not Alan

1249
01:15:40,239 --> 01:15:43,279
rogers five dollars on a scale of acumenism one that

1250
01:15:43,399 --> 01:15:46,319
zero to ten, would you place the idea of salvation

1251
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:49,680
quote outside the church? Well, the phrase is ambiguous because

1252
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:52,000
do you mean just out of the visible confines?

1253
01:15:52,159 --> 01:15:52,239
Speaker 5: No?

1254
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:54,920
Speaker 1: I mean yes, in the sense that God might join

1255
01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:58,600
people to the mystical body in ways that are extra normative,

1256
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:01,560
which we don't see or have access to, Hence things

1257
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:04,920
like baptism of desire or baptism of blood, this kind

1258
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:09,199
of a thing. But that doesn't mean that we then

1259
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:14,479
necessarily affirm all the Protestants and Roman Catholics have gracious sacraments.

1260
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:18,359
We would not say that. Howdy, five dollars, can you

1261
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:21,600
gray the Brian? Thank you for this stream, gentlemen. Ten dollars.

1262
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:25,640
Is Rodriguez jam orthodox? I know you're looking for. Really disagree.

1263
01:16:26,359 --> 01:16:29,720
I disagree on the Theophany and Genesis eighteen.

1264
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:34,199
Speaker 7: Oh my gosh, heykaank you yeah, thanks so much.

1265
01:16:34,239 --> 01:16:36,119
Speaker 2: Man to here, everybody to bless you guys.

1266
01:16:37,159 --> 01:16:38,960
Speaker 1: Okay, well, now that I got to a super chet,

1267
01:16:39,079 --> 01:16:42,640
Israel is going so I don't see Israel Rodriguez anymore.

1268
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:51,680
So sorry, I just saw your super chet, but you're

1269
01:16:51,720 --> 01:17:00,239
already going Joe Mama one two three A question, what

1270
01:17:00,279 --> 01:17:02,840
do you think critics of tag like Malpass get wrong

1271
01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:06,039
about the argument that'd be a better one for FDA

1272
01:17:06,159 --> 01:17:09,239
because he's kept up with reading Malpass and I haven't,

1273
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:15,039
So he's seen more of Malpass's like recent critiques, So

1274
01:17:15,239 --> 01:17:18,239
I don't know what he's been arguing in the last

1275
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:25,520
couple of years about it. So not Alan, No, we

1276
01:17:25,600 --> 01:17:30,399
did that, demon Clatt two dollars? Why did you block me?

1277
01:17:32,199 --> 01:17:35,760
Why are you salty? I called you a pussy. Stop

1278
01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:41,039
acting like a pussy. That's why I blocked you. I

1279
01:17:41,039 --> 01:17:44,279
didn't block Apostate Profit because I'm a pussy because I

1280
01:17:44,319 --> 01:17:46,399
wanted to do the debate. I blocked him because he

1281
01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:52,039
kept commenting and getting on my nerves. And you're just

1282
01:17:52,119 --> 01:17:54,920
wasting your money because any more super chats like I

1283
01:17:55,000 --> 01:18:01,000
just won't I'll just refund them. It's like I'm calling

1284
01:18:01,039 --> 01:18:02,800
you a pussy. Why do you not want to talk

1285
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:03,039
to me?

1286
01:18:04,119 --> 01:18:04,199
Speaker 2: Like?

1287
01:18:05,399 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 1: Why do you think Matthew Logan, Matthew, I'm you guys.

1288
01:18:25,319 --> 01:18:25,760
Speaker 4: Do a hit?

1289
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:29,840
Speaker 1: I can share? Uh, where are we at over here?

1290
01:18:34,399 --> 01:18:36,319
I don't understand, Like do you not want to talk.

1291
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:38,479
People call in and they just sit there or doesn't

1292
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:42,119
it doesn't connect. I don't know, Slinger. I'm mut.

1293
01:18:44,279 --> 01:18:49,279
Speaker 2: Hello, can you hear me? Okay? I had a question.

1294
01:18:49,319 --> 01:18:55,439
Speaker 19: I'm inquiring about Orthodoxy and Catholicism, and I heard you

1295
01:18:55,479 --> 01:18:59,119
say before that at the beginning, basically everyone's in the

1296
01:18:59,159 --> 01:19:02,720
same boat trying to figure out But it's just the

1297
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:07,439
means you could use to try and get to the truth, right, Basically,

1298
01:19:07,439 --> 01:19:08,399
that's kind of what you said.

1299
01:19:11,279 --> 01:19:13,239
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what you're referring to. Maybe I said

1300
01:19:13,239 --> 01:19:14,199
something like this one time.

1301
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:18,640
Speaker 19: Basically, when you're trying to figure out what's true at

1302
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:21,479
the beginning, all three people are in the same boat.

1303
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:23,600
Oh yeah, at the end of the day, you have

1304
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:24,600
to use you know, you have.

1305
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:27,079
Speaker 1: To Yeah, you're you're relying on the Holy Spirit to

1306
01:19:27,199 --> 01:19:29,239
be you know, convinced as an individual. Yeah, I got

1307
01:19:29,279 --> 01:19:30,680
you know, Okay.

1308
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:34,760
Speaker 19: I wanted to give you my reasons why I'm considering

1309
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:38,000
Orthodoxy to be true, and if you think they're good

1310
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:43,800
reasons or not, or if it's it's like just not

1311
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:44,680
good reasons.

1312
01:19:45,159 --> 01:19:49,079
Speaker 13: One of them is kind of the exclusivity of it.

1313
01:19:50,439 --> 01:19:54,920
Speaker 19: How like everyone will say your guys' is sacraments are valid,

1314
01:19:55,039 --> 01:19:57,279
but you guys, you guys.

1315
01:19:57,079 --> 01:19:58,239
Speaker 2: Say no one else's are.

1316
01:20:01,319 --> 01:20:05,039
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, I actually think you're onto something here,

1317
01:20:05,079 --> 01:20:10,079
because if we want to compare this attitude to the

1318
01:20:10,199 --> 01:20:13,359
Church's attitude in the first millennium and how they spoke

1319
01:20:13,399 --> 01:20:17,319
about itself, only the Orthodox continue that attitude. So I

1320
01:20:17,319 --> 01:20:20,520
think you're on the right track of looking for markers

1321
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:23,399
and indicators of the true Church, one of which would

1322
01:20:23,399 --> 01:20:27,560
be consistency of confession and ideology about itself.

1323
01:20:29,399 --> 01:20:29,640
Speaker 4: Right.

1324
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:34,199
Speaker 19: And just to give you my background, I grew up Pentecostal, huh.

1325
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:35,960
Speaker 13: And the whole.

1326
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:40,079
Speaker 19: Thing was it was all just about like singing warship songs.

1327
01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:43,119
Speaker 1: Emotionally something, Yeah, that's the Holy Spirit, right, emotions.

1328
01:20:43,199 --> 01:20:45,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, and your.

1329
01:20:45,199 --> 01:20:47,399
Speaker 19: Whole thing where knowledge, you know, the Holy Spirit to

1330
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:51,560
use knowledge and research and all these other things.

1331
01:20:54,079 --> 01:20:56,239
Speaker 13: Just looking at the exclusivity.

1332
01:20:56,319 --> 01:20:58,920
Speaker 19: And then another thing is this, let me know if

1333
01:20:58,920 --> 01:21:01,439
you think this is a bad reason to consider it

1334
01:21:02,119 --> 01:21:06,600
when you just consider that everyone says your guys's sacraments

1335
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:10,119
is okay, No one says you guys are heretics.

1336
01:21:10,279 --> 01:21:12,720
Speaker 13: I kind of got over the icons.

1337
01:21:14,199 --> 01:21:17,359
Speaker 19: Because I actually went to an Orthodox church with my friend.

1338
01:21:17,920 --> 01:21:20,279
Speaker 13: I went twice and.

1339
01:21:20,279 --> 01:21:22,199
Speaker 19: I see an icon on the wall, and it was

1340
01:21:22,239 --> 01:21:25,560
people venerating the cross. I believe in the early three hundreds.

1341
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:30,479
Do you know what I'm talking about? So the whole

1342
01:21:30,520 --> 01:21:34,239
idea what I heard when I first started asking questions, Well,

1343
01:21:34,279 --> 01:21:36,960
well they didn't venerate icons to like the year eight hundred,

1344
01:21:38,199 --> 01:21:42,279
but that pushed it forward like five hundred years basically.

1345
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:47,279
And I want to know if you think this is

1346
01:21:47,319 --> 01:21:50,760
a good argument. From what I understand, the councils happened

1347
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:56,960
to refute people who are disagreeing with something important.

1348
01:21:57,159 --> 01:22:02,199
Speaker 1: Correct, and something that's usually been clearly done already for

1349
01:22:02,239 --> 01:22:02,840
a long time.

1350
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:04,119
Speaker 4: Right.

1351
01:22:04,239 --> 01:22:07,720
Speaker 13: So another the thing I the logic.

1352
01:22:07,319 --> 01:22:09,239
Speaker 19: I used to get over the icons. I want you

1353
01:22:09,239 --> 01:22:10,479
to know if you think this is a good logic

1354
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:15,079
or not. Constantinople. I've read the first three councils.

1355
01:22:15,119 --> 01:22:16,600
Speaker 2: I'm waiting to read the rest.

1356
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:22,359
Speaker 13: Good Constantinople is to confirm.

1357
01:22:22,000 --> 01:22:24,439
Speaker 19: The deity of the Holy Spirit, and that's in three

1358
01:22:24,520 --> 01:22:25,319
eighty one, right.

1359
01:22:25,479 --> 01:22:28,239
Speaker 1: Correct, Well that's part of the council. Yeah, I mean

1360
01:22:28,319 --> 01:22:33,439
it condemns a pollinarianism. It uh adds to the nice

1361
01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:35,680
and creed, So it does many things, because.

1362
01:22:36,279 --> 01:22:39,720
Speaker 19: Okay, but my point is everyone knew the Holy Spirit

1363
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:43,000
was God for three hundred and fifty years, but it

1364
01:22:43,119 --> 01:22:47,760
wasn't one hundred percent confirmed until someone disagreed with it.

1365
01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:49,039
Speaker 2: Correct, you get what I'm saying.

1366
01:22:49,279 --> 01:22:53,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, Counsels meet to usually address heresies that are growing,

1367
01:22:53,399 --> 01:22:55,159
right right.

1368
01:22:55,039 --> 01:22:57,960
Speaker 19: So then that kind of made me realize, well, maybe

1369
01:22:58,239 --> 01:23:01,159
icons were a thing the whole time, but like no

1370
01:23:01,199 --> 01:23:04,279
one cared to beat them until.

1371
01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:07,239
Speaker 1: Well, there were some early there were earlier disputes and

1372
01:23:07,279 --> 01:23:12,279
people who disagreed about imagery throughout the centuries, but it

1373
01:23:12,319 --> 01:23:17,359
doesn't seem to become a major issue until the time

1374
01:23:17,399 --> 01:23:22,880
of the Seventh Council due to, for whatever reasons, originist

1375
01:23:23,039 --> 01:23:27,119
influence amongst a lot of monastics. So this for some reason,

1376
01:23:27,239 --> 01:23:30,279
and this is Mayandorf covers this in his book, This

1377
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:37,359
got a lot of them the monks thinking that on

1378
01:23:37,399 --> 01:23:41,520
the basis of Neoplatonic ideas, all of these images should

1379
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:43,600
be done away with except for the Eucharists. Or what

1380
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:45,439
if for whatever reason they thought the Eucharist was like

1381
01:23:45,479 --> 01:23:49,760
the one that should remain. But I would say check

1382
01:23:49,800 --> 01:23:52,720
out the documentary on an orthodoxy Hata on Old Testament

1383
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:58,680
Christian worship being the same, and then that will also

1384
01:23:58,800 --> 01:24:02,039
help with that whole dispute Israel. Oh, by the way,

1385
01:24:02,039 --> 01:24:04,079
before you get on Israel, I want to add that

1386
01:24:05,279 --> 01:24:08,439
I think that you could make an argument along the

1387
01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:11,520
same lines as that guy that if the Seventh Ecumenical

1388
01:24:11,600 --> 01:24:16,319
Council has an anathema service, and that's kind of the

1389
01:24:16,359 --> 01:24:19,920
expectation that the church will continue this anathema service, there's

1390
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:22,560
literally only one church in the world that still does

1391
01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:26,399
the anathema service, and that's Orthodox. That's kind of another way,

1392
01:24:27,800 --> 01:24:30,680
kind of like iconography and the decree of the Seventh Council.

1393
01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:33,560
In icons like Rome doesn't follow this anymore. They don't

1394
01:24:33,560 --> 01:24:35,800
really They give verbal credence to the Seventh Council, they

1395
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:38,520
don't actually follow it other than just giving lip service

1396
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:40,600
to images. But there's a lot more in the Seventh

1397
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:44,159
Council of just lip service to images. So when you

1398
01:24:44,199 --> 01:24:46,319
read the Seventh Council and when you read the Synauticon,

1399
01:24:46,399 --> 01:24:50,279
which is the eight forty three reaffirmation of the Seventh Council,

1400
01:24:50,359 --> 01:24:55,640
like this service is normative for identifying the true church,

1401
01:24:55,800 --> 01:24:58,039
you could argue and if no other churches do it,

1402
01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:01,520
then there's no other church that is the same church

1403
01:25:02,039 --> 01:25:05,239
of the eighth and ninth, seventheth and ninth century church.

1404
01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:08,000
Do you know what I'm talking about?

1405
01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:10,600
Speaker 2: No, I don't take shit.

1406
01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:13,159
Speaker 1: I got no love for the free beast.

1407
01:25:13,279 --> 01:25:15,439
Speaker 2: If you want to play tough, I want to hate

1408
01:25:15,479 --> 01:25:20,199
this and I don't never slow up. No, I don't

1409
01:25:20,239 --> 01:25:23,279
take shit. I got no love for the bapist.

1410
01:25:23,359 --> 01:25:24,720
Speaker 13: If you want to play tough.

1411
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:27,079
Speaker 20: And want to hate this, I know we're showing up

1412
01:25:27,279 --> 01:25:28,239
the biggest statement.

1413
01:25:28,399 --> 01:25:30,840
Speaker 2: I don't never stole up. No, I don't take shit.

1414
01:25:31,079 --> 01:25:33,399
I got no love for the bapist.

1415
01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:35,880
Speaker 20: If you want to play tough and want to hate this.

1416
01:25:36,079 --> 01:25:38,359
Speaker 2: Athough, we're showing up the bigges statement.

1417
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:41,560
Speaker 20: Everything I do so instinctive and so passionate. Every word

1418
01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:43,880
I'm moved so descriptive, like in natistive. I got a

1419
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:47,239
vandetta against people who've gotten it being negative when you

1420
01:25:47,239 --> 01:25:50,920
should be getting after it. I got facts over facts

1421
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:54,039
over traxs, and that's being so speaking fast. I can roast,

1422
01:25:54,079 --> 01:25:56,560
I can guess think I'm okaying least, but I don't

1423
01:25:56,560 --> 01:25:58,439
know if that can erase all the now.

1424
01:25:58,640 --> 01:25:59,119
Speaker 2: Uh.

1425
01:25:59,279 --> 01:26:02,239
Speaker 1: The reason I'll play that is not that I'm arguing,

1426
01:26:02,319 --> 01:26:04,439
because I know people are gonna say this, They're gonna

1427
01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:09,439
misinterpret the argument. The argument is not that you have

1428
01:26:09,520 --> 01:26:12,760
to perform this service perfectly to prove that you're the

1429
01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:16,800
true church. My argument is rather that I know, I'm

1430
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:19,960
aware that local bishops can add to this. For example,

1431
01:26:20,079 --> 01:26:25,720
Metropolitan serve from a preas includes Zionists and Jehovah's witnesses

1432
01:26:26,359 --> 01:26:29,279
in the Anathemas. So it's not that the service has

1433
01:26:29,279 --> 01:26:31,479
to be done in some sort of magic formula where

1434
01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:35,520
you read it perfectly. I'm saying that the service itself

1435
01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:41,439
is normative for the church identifying the heresies and reminding

1436
01:26:41,479 --> 01:26:44,640
everyone every year what the heresies are. And it's a

1437
01:26:44,680 --> 01:26:46,880
giant list. If you read some of the larger, longer

1438
01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:52,199
lists of the Sonoticon Service, the Anathema Service, then this

1439
01:26:52,279 --> 01:26:55,560
is an easy identifier for what the Church of the

1440
01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:58,319
first millennium is. And no one else does this. What's

1441
01:26:58,399 --> 01:26:58,920
up Israel?

1442
01:27:00,199 --> 01:27:00,920
Speaker 2: That? What's going on? Man?

1443
01:27:02,199 --> 01:27:03,520
Speaker 1: You want to talk about Genesis eighteen?

1444
01:27:04,399 --> 01:27:10,199
Speaker 21: Yeah, I mean I don't claim to have like certainty

1445
01:27:10,319 --> 01:27:16,039
as to what it says, but I back before Shamoon

1446
01:27:16,319 --> 01:27:20,479
lost his marbles, I mean he was arguing Theophanes.

1447
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:21,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean.

1448
01:27:21,199 --> 01:27:24,000
Speaker 21: I started learning about the Theophanes.

1449
01:27:24,079 --> 01:27:26,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I've heard him times.

1450
01:27:27,000 --> 01:27:28,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was pretty good at.

1451
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:31,359
Speaker 21: It, I mean, you know, And and I had wrote, Ah,

1452
01:27:32,039 --> 01:27:34,119
I was taking notes on one of the talks that

1453
01:27:34,159 --> 01:27:35,439
he was doing on it, and I kind of like

1454
01:27:35,439 --> 01:27:38,239
made an article where you know, he was basically arguing

1455
01:27:40,319 --> 01:27:43,560
or refuting the position that, oh, well, it's not multiple

1456
01:27:44,159 --> 01:27:47,159
divine persons that are present there, it's just a Hebrew idiom.

1457
01:27:47,680 --> 01:27:50,760
But you know, there's some examples of Hebrew idioms that

1458
01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:53,520
you have where like Solomon is referring to himself, but

1459
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:56,920
it's it's different. And you know, if you go to

1460
01:27:57,439 --> 01:28:01,479
let me see him trying to so obviously, you know,

1461
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:06,000
you have the three men appear right, at least one

1462
01:28:06,039 --> 01:28:09,119
of them is God, at least one of them is

1463
01:28:09,119 --> 01:28:09,640
the Lord.

1464
01:28:10,039 --> 01:28:13,560
Speaker 2: But then it gets interesting when.

1465
01:28:15,279 --> 01:28:20,079
Speaker 21: In twenty to twenty one it says, then the Lord said,

1466
01:28:20,239 --> 01:28:22,680
because the outcry against Sodom and Gomora is great and

1467
01:28:22,720 --> 01:28:25,399
their sin is very grave, I will go down to

1468
01:28:25,479 --> 01:28:30,000
see whether they have done altogether to the outcry, according

1469
01:28:30,039 --> 01:28:31,800
to the outcry that has come to me, and if not,

1470
01:28:31,840 --> 01:28:35,880
I will know. So the Lord is speaking, and then

1471
01:28:35,920 --> 01:28:37,560
he says, I will go down, and then in twenty

1472
01:28:37,560 --> 01:28:39,680
two it says, so the men turned from there and

1473
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:42,920
went towards Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.

1474
01:28:43,159 --> 01:28:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, but so, but that's before Abraham does this intercessory move.

1475
01:28:49,159 --> 01:28:53,239
So the plan in twenty one is that Jesus and

1476
01:28:53,359 --> 01:28:55,000
the two ael this is my reading, Jesus and the

1477
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:56,680
two angels are going to go do it. And Jesus

1478
01:28:56,720 --> 01:28:59,760
is like, I'm off to destroy them and Abraham in

1479
01:28:59,800 --> 01:29:03,119
an intercessory way. And then we see this in Genesis elsewhere,

1480
01:29:03,119 --> 01:29:05,800
you know, where he prays and he says, you know,

1481
01:29:05,840 --> 01:29:08,399
if there be a few righteous, right, well you let

1482
01:29:08,479 --> 01:29:10,960
the you know. Right after this is when he starts

1483
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:16,680
bargaining with Jesus for their lives. So I think that

1484
01:29:16,680 --> 01:29:19,640
that's prior to Abraham stepping forward. If Abraham had not

1485
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:23,520
stepped forward, Jesus would have gone with the two men

1486
01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:25,239
to do it. And this is like when you see

1487
01:29:25,279 --> 01:29:28,680
if you read the book of Amos, Amos does intercessory

1488
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:30,840
prayers for Israel because God is going to destroy it,

1489
01:29:31,279 --> 01:29:34,640
and God says to Amos, had you not interceded, I

1490
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:37,199
would have destroyed them.

1491
01:29:37,399 --> 01:29:38,600
Speaker 2: Okay, I think I see what you're saying.

1492
01:29:38,680 --> 01:29:41,199
Speaker 21: So you're saying that words says, and the Lord went

1493
01:29:41,239 --> 01:29:42,439
his way when he finished.

1494
01:29:42,119 --> 01:29:43,960
Speaker 2: Speaking with Abraham.

1495
01:29:44,600 --> 01:29:51,239
Speaker 21: You're saying that that that includes the intercessory prayer, which

1496
01:29:51,239 --> 01:29:54,319
first not just so in thirty three where it says

1497
01:29:54,359 --> 01:29:56,439
and the Lord went his way when he finished speaking

1498
01:29:56,479 --> 01:29:57,920
with Abraham.

1499
01:29:58,159 --> 01:30:01,479
Speaker 1: Well, in nineteen one, it doesn't sound like the Lord

1500
01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:04,760
went with them.

1501
01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:07,399
Speaker 21: Because there's a I'm trying to find the part here,

1502
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:11,159
because there's a part where it says like the Lord

1503
01:30:11,399 --> 01:30:15,359
rained fire and sulfur or whatever from the Lord out

1504
01:30:15,359 --> 01:30:15,800
of heaven.

1505
01:30:16,079 --> 01:30:16,399
Speaker 4: Yes.

1506
01:30:16,960 --> 01:30:18,720
Speaker 2: And then there's another verse.

1507
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:22,279
Speaker 21: I think I'll pull it up over here, and I

1508
01:30:22,319 --> 01:30:25,039
think it's Isaiah is a thirteen year I think it's

1509
01:30:25,079 --> 01:30:27,800
thirteen where it says he says, look, I am rousing

1510
01:30:27,840 --> 01:30:31,640
against you the meads, who do not regard silver or

1511
01:30:31,640 --> 01:30:34,800
have need of gold. They will crush young men's arrows,

1512
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:37,359
and they will surely show no mercy to your children.

1513
01:30:38,079 --> 01:30:40,199
Speaker 2: Their eyes will not refrain even at your children.

1514
01:30:40,279 --> 01:30:43,960
Speaker 21: And Babylon, which is called which is called esteem because

1515
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:46,399
of the King of the Chaldeans, will be as when

1516
01:30:46,439 --> 01:30:48,039
God over through Sodomigamora.

1517
01:30:48,479 --> 01:30:56,000
Speaker 2: So you have like this and again like correct me.

1518
01:30:56,079 --> 01:31:01,680
Speaker 21: If I'm sort of missing the initial point you were

1519
01:31:02,239 --> 01:31:05,079
making about the conversation because I'm trying to grasp that,

1520
01:31:05,159 --> 01:31:06,439
like the timeline.

1521
01:31:07,079 --> 01:31:09,439
Speaker 2: Because you have well the Lord reigning.

1522
01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:13,560
Speaker 1: Sorry, go ahead, which verse you're reading from in isaiahare.

1523
01:31:14,760 --> 01:31:17,239
Speaker 2: Isaiah thirteen seventeen to nineteen.

1524
01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:25,399
Speaker 1: I'll sort of the meads up against them who will

1525
01:31:25,439 --> 01:31:30,600
not regard silver, Babylon, the glory of the canyons. I

1526
01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:32,960
will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

1527
01:31:35,800 --> 01:31:38,119
Speaker 21: So it's like one person referring to another, kind of

1528
01:31:38,119 --> 01:31:40,600
like in Isaiah forty eight where he says, you know,

1529
01:31:41,239 --> 01:31:44,520
you know, the one speaking is identifying himself as you know,

1530
01:31:44,640 --> 01:31:46,680
the first and the last, and then he says at

1531
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:49,680
the at the end of that little section, he says,

1532
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:52,159
and now the Lord has sent me in his spirit.

1533
01:31:52,359 --> 01:31:54,880
So it's sort of that sort of that that that

1534
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:57,199
language where you know, you know, the Lord said to

1535
01:31:57,239 --> 01:31:59,920
my lord kind of language where you have the Lord

1536
01:32:00,239 --> 01:32:02,479
referring to the Lord doing something else and they're both

1537
01:32:02,479 --> 01:32:05,640
participating in that action where the Lord.

1538
01:32:05,479 --> 01:32:09,000
Speaker 1: Rainfire, I say Lord in Genesis eighteen, though I think

1539
01:32:09,079 --> 01:32:14,600
the strongest argument here is in Genesis eighteen. It's specifically

1540
01:32:14,640 --> 01:32:18,319
twenty two. That tells us that only one of them

1541
01:32:18,399 --> 01:32:25,039
is Yahweh, because they're all going to walk away. And

1542
01:32:25,079 --> 01:32:29,359
then Abraham stands before one of them, who's Yeahweh?

1543
01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:30,000
Speaker 2: Right?

1544
01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:36,000
Speaker 21: And I recognize that the one standing before them is

1545
01:32:36,439 --> 01:32:42,039
Do you think that that sort of negates the language

1546
01:32:42,079 --> 01:32:44,520
of the Lord, rain fire from the Lord out of heaven?

1547
01:32:44,760 --> 01:32:45,600
Speaker 6: Like it?

1548
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:48,720
Speaker 2: Because you do have some Hebrew idioms that use something,

1549
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:49,920
but it doesn't happen.

1550
01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:52,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't like when we go to Genesis nineteen.

1551
01:32:52,920 --> 01:32:56,079
I understand what you're saying there. But like in Genesis nineteen,

1552
01:32:57,439 --> 01:33:05,199
the two angels that go to Sodom, they're not identified here,

1553
01:33:05,399 --> 01:33:08,720
at least in the way Lot treats them. Lot does

1554
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:11,600
not treat them or act the way that Abraham acts

1555
01:33:11,840 --> 01:33:18,359
to Yahweh.

1556
01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:19,319
Speaker 2: That's a good point.

1557
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:23,479
Speaker 1: So a Lot treats them in a reverent way, and

1558
01:33:23,560 --> 01:33:26,560
he calls them lords, but he does not call them Yahweh.

1559
01:33:26,600 --> 01:33:28,479
So let's see what and remember a Lot is a

1560
01:33:28,560 --> 01:33:32,039
righteous man according to here was eleven. So let's see

1561
01:33:32,039 --> 01:33:38,039
what the word is here in Genesis nineteen, because that

1562
01:33:38,159 --> 01:33:39,880
might help here in two.

1563
01:33:41,319 --> 01:33:45,840
Speaker 2: Let's see what I can put it into the exegetical

1564
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:46,279
up here.

1565
01:33:48,439 --> 01:33:54,279
Speaker 1: Genesis nineteen two. It says, behold now my adon, which

1566
01:33:54,319 --> 01:34:02,239
is like, I don't I lord's owners, masters, super attendants, kings.

1567
01:34:02,560 --> 01:34:06,319
So lords is just a generic term for a master,

1568
01:34:06,520 --> 01:34:13,319
which could be divine, it could be human. Well, but

1569
01:34:13,399 --> 01:34:16,560
what I'm saying is that he doesn't treat them the

1570
01:34:16,560 --> 01:34:21,319
way that Abraham treats Yahweh in the previous chapter.

1571
01:34:30,399 --> 01:34:34,880
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I mean yeah, I think you make a

1572
01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:35,800
valid point.

1573
01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:42,119
Speaker 1: Also the Orthodox view, Like I'm not aware of any

1574
01:34:42,920 --> 01:34:51,880
acceptance or position that there's an angelic representation or excuse me,

1575
01:34:51,960 --> 01:34:55,159
that there's ever an angelic energetic manifestation.

1576
01:34:56,199 --> 01:34:57,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, me either. That's why I was sort of iffy

1577
01:34:58,000 --> 01:35:00,039
on it, because like I knew the lang.

1578
01:35:00,079 --> 01:35:02,039
Speaker 21: Which sort of you know, an argument could be made

1579
01:35:02,039 --> 01:35:05,159
for it, but I didn't know of the I know

1580
01:35:05,199 --> 01:35:08,079
that there's also theological implications in these things you could

1581
01:35:08,079 --> 01:35:10,760
like not just like interpreting it however you want, Like

1582
01:35:10,800 --> 01:35:12,760
that has to be submitted to that right, And I

1583
01:35:12,800 --> 01:35:15,199
wasn't familiar with the patrictic understanding of it, So.

1584
01:35:15,199 --> 01:35:18,079
Speaker 1: I just yeah, if you look at the way they

1585
01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:21,319
in the Moscow Icon Council, which is just kind of

1586
01:35:21,359 --> 01:35:23,680
repeated that all the theology is in the laws Ky

1587
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:26,760
alspens Key book. In volume two of that, there's a chapter.

1588
01:35:26,800 --> 01:35:29,279
There's two chapters on the Moscow Icon Synods, and when

1589
01:35:29,279 --> 01:35:34,000
they talk about this issue, they argue that and they

1590
01:35:34,039 --> 01:35:37,159
actually get really really deep into all these theophanies, like

1591
01:35:37,279 --> 01:35:40,479
super deep. A lot of time is spent on the

1592
01:35:40,600 --> 01:35:42,880
Ancient of Days and Daniel seven, but they also get

1593
01:35:42,920 --> 01:35:45,399
into all of these as well. And I don't recall

1594
01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:47,439
and I know that's not an infallible council, but it's

1595
01:35:47,479 --> 01:35:50,199
you know, it's still got a lot of wisdom that

1596
01:35:50,239 --> 01:35:53,760
we can draw from, even if it's not infallible. They

1597
01:35:53,800 --> 01:35:55,880
tend to just say that you can only do the

1598
01:35:55,960 --> 01:36:03,680
spirit as One interesting question I have is like, oh

1599
01:36:03,720 --> 01:36:08,199
wait a minute, I just realized something. You can only

1600
01:36:08,279 --> 01:36:14,760
do the energetic manifestations of Father or Spirit the way

1601
01:36:14,800 --> 01:36:18,960
they're presented in the New Testament. I just realized that

1602
01:36:19,199 --> 01:36:25,079
because it's only tongues of fire and dove. And that's

1603
01:36:25,079 --> 01:36:28,760
interesting because in the Old Testament there's reference to the

1604
01:36:28,760 --> 01:36:33,520
glory Cloud as the as the spirit. But it's interesting

1605
01:36:33,560 --> 01:36:36,319
that the that the Moscow Synod is is saying that

1606
01:36:36,359 --> 01:36:40,720
you ought not say depict the energetic manification of the

1607
01:36:40,760 --> 01:36:45,680
Holy Spirit as cloud. I don't think they. I think

1608
01:36:45,680 --> 01:36:48,960
they say that it's only well but the reason they yeah,

1609
01:36:49,000 --> 01:36:51,000
well they're actually you could like you could argue that,

1610
01:36:51,039 --> 01:36:53,560
like there's icons that show clouds, you know what I mean.

1611
01:36:54,199 --> 01:36:56,920
Speaker 21: But yeah, who was I was just reading somebody that

1612
01:36:57,000 --> 01:36:59,840
was saying that the cloud represented like the apathetic nature

1613
01:36:59,840 --> 01:37:01,319
of are understanding, Oh yeah.

1614
01:37:01,159 --> 01:37:03,840
Speaker 1: That could be. Yeah, well, the thing I'm saying what

1615
01:37:03,880 --> 01:37:07,199
I'm saying there about the one of the reasonings that

1616
01:37:07,199 --> 01:37:10,640
that synod has is that it refers back to see

1617
01:37:10,680 --> 01:37:13,960
it two, and it says that you cannot use in

1618
01:37:14,039 --> 01:37:17,439
the churches or in the icons any of the symbols

1619
01:37:17,520 --> 01:37:20,119
that were proper to the Old Testament. So for example

1620
01:37:20,199 --> 01:37:23,159
that it says, don't do Jesus as a lamb, which

1621
01:37:23,159 --> 01:37:25,560
is interesting because the Roman Callouy Church violates that. But

1622
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:29,199
and the reasoning is that it's not proper to it's

1623
01:37:29,199 --> 01:37:31,720
not proper to depict Christ in iconography as a lamb

1624
01:37:31,720 --> 01:37:34,439
anymore because he's now incarnate, so it would be like Judaea.

1625
01:37:34,479 --> 01:37:37,159
It'd be like going back to the Judaic thing. And

1626
01:37:37,199 --> 01:37:40,800
that's the reasoning. Also, I would have guessed why you

1627
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:47,960
shouldn't do Holy Spirit as glory cloud. But I'm just speculating.

1628
01:37:48,600 --> 01:37:53,479
Speaker 21: Yeah, that's interesting. There was also one more thing, just

1629
01:37:55,479 --> 01:38:03,039
something that I mentioned in terms of Catholics being deceptive

1630
01:38:03,119 --> 01:38:06,600
with their language. And it's interesting in the context of

1631
01:38:06,960 --> 01:38:15,479
Islam because a while back years ago, Shimoon did a live.

1632
01:38:15,279 --> 01:38:17,560
Speaker 2: Stream where he sort of just brought somebody on and

1633
01:38:17,840 --> 01:38:20,359
let them speak. His name is Lloyd de.

1634
01:38:20,479 --> 01:38:24,039
Speaker 21: Jong or something like that, but he was lecturing on

1635
01:38:24,760 --> 01:38:26,319
gnosticism and hermeticism.

1636
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:29,199
Speaker 4: Yea, yeah, it was.

1637
01:38:29,199 --> 01:38:31,319
Speaker 2: Really good because he's he's pulling from the.

1638
01:38:31,319 --> 01:38:35,680
Speaker 21: Forty thousand dollars Encyclopedia of Islam, and he is in

1639
01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:37,920
terms of the gnostic aspect of it.

1640
01:38:38,039 --> 01:38:42,439
Speaker 2: There's four levels of knowledge.

1641
01:38:43,159 --> 01:38:47,640
Speaker 21: And the first one, which is called ibarra or if

1642
01:38:47,680 --> 01:38:51,880
tita in mysticism. And mind you, they don't claim mysticism

1643
01:38:51,960 --> 01:38:54,720
in their religion, and yet they're Encyclopedia is giving a

1644
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:59,720
mystical uh, a definitionally mystic definition for these things.

1645
01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:01,039
Speaker 2: And it says the.

1646
01:39:01,039 --> 01:39:05,479
Speaker 21: Literal language, which is unsuitable for esoteric topics, right, the

1647
01:39:05,520 --> 01:39:06,439
coded language.

1648
01:39:06,760 --> 01:39:09,840
Speaker 1: Well, this is the type of stuff that doctor Khalil argues.

1649
01:39:10,039 --> 01:39:12,520
He says, yeah, this is exactly why we're shiah.

1650
01:39:13,239 --> 01:39:17,479
Speaker 21: Yeah, and it's also why the emms and the teachers

1651
01:39:17,680 --> 01:39:20,600
don't tell people these things, sort of like how most

1652
01:39:20,640 --> 01:39:24,119
Catholics don't know that they worship the same God as Muslims.

1653
01:39:24,479 --> 01:39:27,359
Because unless you actually go into the debate and you

1654
01:39:27,399 --> 01:39:29,840
start parsing out what your belief actually is and need

1655
01:39:29,880 --> 01:39:32,079
to defend it, then this stuff comes up.

1656
01:39:32,399 --> 01:39:33,760
Speaker 2: But this stuff is settled at the.

1657
01:39:33,680 --> 01:39:37,520
Speaker 21: Bottom when the waters are still and everything's cool until

1658
01:39:37,560 --> 01:39:39,319
you have to dig all of that up and then

1659
01:39:39,359 --> 01:39:42,840
you realize, well, that's it's intentional because when you go

1660
01:39:42,920 --> 01:39:46,359
to the second level of knowledge, called eshara, it says

1661
01:39:47,079 --> 01:39:51,920
a gesture, sign, indication, and rhetoric acquired the technical meaning

1662
01:39:51,960 --> 01:39:55,720
of illusion and then allusion to refer to implied or

1663
01:39:55,760 --> 01:39:59,600
indirect reference. And in Latin, which is also interesting, it's

1664
01:39:59,600 --> 01:40:00,800
add luterae.

1665
01:40:00,840 --> 01:40:02,239
Speaker 2: Which means to play with words.

1666
01:40:03,239 --> 01:40:07,359
Speaker 21: And in mysticism it's the esoteric language of the inexpressible

1667
01:40:07,439 --> 01:40:11,960
mystical experience, symbolic expression, a silent gesture or sign.

1668
01:40:12,640 --> 01:40:13,800
Speaker 2: So it's funny, isn't it like that?

1669
01:40:13,920 --> 01:40:17,520
Speaker 1: That sounds like that sounds like words, that sounds like

1670
01:40:17,560 --> 01:40:20,600
Sufi stuff where you can just allegorize and turn it

1671
01:40:20,600 --> 01:40:21,199
into anything.

1672
01:40:21,800 --> 01:40:24,640
Speaker 21: Yeah, because when you're the teacher and you get to

1673
01:40:24,680 --> 01:40:28,000
disperse this information in a way that simply gets people

1674
01:40:28,039 --> 01:40:30,479
on your side, you're going to play with words. And

1675
01:40:30,520 --> 01:40:33,239
it's funny because in this whole thing, it's like, well,

1676
01:40:33,279 --> 01:40:36,279
we'll do Catholics and Muslims worship the same god. Evidently

1677
01:40:36,359 --> 01:40:38,359
so and it's not our god.

1678
01:40:38,560 --> 01:40:38,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1679
01:40:39,399 --> 01:40:45,399
Speaker 21: I mean you have this deceitful system and these deceitful

1680
01:40:45,640 --> 01:40:48,720
teachers who are literally just like, as long as you

1681
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:51,800
get people away from the truth, of course you can

1682
01:40:51,800 --> 01:40:52,439
twist the words.

1683
01:40:53,000 --> 01:40:54,199
Speaker 2: What do you actually mean by that?

1684
01:40:54,760 --> 01:40:57,479
Speaker 1: So I just thought that's great. What was the fourth

1685
01:40:57,720 --> 01:40:58,920
tier of the knowledge?

1686
01:40:59,760 --> 01:41:01,720
Speaker 21: So there's two more, actually, and the second one is

1687
01:41:01,760 --> 01:41:02,520
pretty interesting.

1688
01:41:02,760 --> 01:41:05,239
Speaker 2: It's called Latifa.

1689
01:41:05,680 --> 01:41:08,039
Speaker 1: Who are you talking about? What you talking about? Latifa?

1690
01:41:08,479 --> 01:41:10,960
Hold up, man Hola, why are you telling my Lati?

1691
01:41:11,239 --> 01:41:15,399
Speaker 22: She ain't here, she's getting all up In mysticism, the

1692
01:41:15,399 --> 01:41:18,640
subtle organ a theory of levels developed from the time

1693
01:41:18,680 --> 01:41:21,960
of najim Aldin Kubra Mystics of his school.

1694
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:25,199
Speaker 21: What's interesting about this third level is that it's actually

1695
01:41:25,199 --> 01:41:28,039
linked to the word lilat, which you know how in

1696
01:41:28,079 --> 01:41:32,760
Greek like the wisdom is the sofio, well, the the count.

1697
01:41:32,840 --> 01:41:37,239
The Islamic counterpart to that is Lilac, which is sacred knowledge.

1698
01:41:37,359 --> 01:41:39,439
Speaker 2: Now what do you think that translates to in Hebrew?

1699
01:41:42,119 --> 01:41:47,960
Speaker 21: In Hebrew law, Yeah, well Lilac in Hebrew is literally lilith.

1700
01:41:48,560 --> 01:41:50,880
Speaker 1: Oh I thought you meant what his tradition translations.

1701
01:41:50,920 --> 01:41:56,000
Speaker 2: Oh no, so the word translated into Hebrew. Yeah.

1702
01:41:56,079 --> 01:41:58,479
Speaker 21: And you know, in Isaiah thirty three there's mentioned to

1703
01:41:58,520 --> 01:42:01,720
this demonic figure, which is interesting because like the Bible

1704
01:42:01,760 --> 01:42:06,520
describes these demonic figures as you know, uh, demons who

1705
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:10,880
seek out waterless places, dry and waterless places spiritually and physically.

1706
01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:13,840
Speaker 2: Also, and it's interesting because Mohammed was.

1707
01:42:13,840 --> 01:42:16,760
Speaker 21: In a dry, waterless place in a cave with a

1708
01:42:16,760 --> 01:42:17,960
demon who.

1709
01:42:19,279 --> 01:42:21,319
Speaker 2: Basically physically assaulted.

1710
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:25,600
Speaker 21: Him, and Lilith in this whole demonology thing, like you

1711
01:42:25,600 --> 01:42:30,600
get into the Kabala and all this weird uh Judaic mysticism.

1712
01:42:30,399 --> 01:42:35,039
Speaker 2: She's a succubist, Yeah, who tries to him having this.

1713
01:42:35,159 --> 01:42:38,800
Speaker 21: Encounter with a demon that perfectly fits that description. And

1714
01:42:38,800 --> 01:42:43,680
then you have that basically sort of uh implicitly in

1715
01:42:43,680 --> 01:42:47,760
in their mystical uh teaching. And then the fourth level

1716
01:42:47,800 --> 01:42:49,520
of knowledge and I'll finished up with this.

1717
01:42:50,800 --> 01:42:53,880
Speaker 2: The is called hakika haikika chu.

1718
01:42:54,399 --> 01:42:55,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it.

1719
01:42:55,880 --> 01:43:00,239
Speaker 21: Says reality, essence, truth, and rhetoric. Now in mysticism, and

1720
01:43:00,319 --> 01:43:04,000
this is interesting. And missism is the profound reality to

1721
01:43:04,079 --> 01:43:06,840
which only experience of union with God opens the way.

1722
01:43:07,039 --> 01:43:10,399
So in their understanding, that would be what Muhammad attained to.

1723
01:43:13,039 --> 01:43:20,079
Speaker 2: So yeah, and I have more notes though, but that's

1724
01:43:20,119 --> 01:43:22,479
the basic for four levels of it.

1725
01:43:22,520 --> 01:43:26,279
Speaker 1: State Akika again, uh.

1726
01:43:26,079 --> 01:43:31,600
Speaker 21: Hakika reality, essence, truth and rhetoric and exegesis. Al Hakika

1727
01:43:31,760 --> 01:43:34,119
is the basic meaning of a word or expression and

1728
01:43:34,279 --> 01:43:39,840
is distinguished from madijas and philosophy has an ontological and

1729
01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:44,079
logical meaning. The ontological meaning is best translated by nature

1730
01:43:44,239 --> 01:43:48,520
or essence, essential reality. The logical meaning is the truth,

1731
01:43:48,720 --> 01:43:52,560
with the truth which the exact conception of the thing

1732
01:43:52,800 --> 01:43:55,920
establishes in the intelligence or in the intellect?

1733
01:43:56,359 --> 01:44:00,359
Speaker 1: Is this in this honest question? So is this like

1734
01:44:00,399 --> 01:44:03,359
a dictionary that's only describing the Sufi stuff or is

1735
01:44:03,359 --> 01:44:04,439
this broader than Sufi?

1736
01:44:06,239 --> 01:44:09,199
Speaker 21: Let me see, so I have the exact it says

1737
01:44:09,279 --> 01:44:13,319
it's the forty thousand dollars Encyclopedia, The Encyclopedia of Islam

1738
01:44:13,520 --> 01:44:21,800
New Edition. I couldn't tell you, maybe because they don't

1739
01:44:21,800 --> 01:44:29,319
want people reading this stuff. I mean, I'm not paying

1740
01:44:29,560 --> 01:44:32,439
I mean you could probably Internet archive find that thing.

1741
01:44:33,239 --> 01:44:35,399
Speaker 1: Here's one that's like five thousand dollars. Is that you

1742
01:44:35,399 --> 01:44:36,279
think it's the same one?

1743
01:44:38,319 --> 01:44:40,520
Speaker 21: It could be. I mean he said it was forty.

1744
01:44:41,039 --> 01:44:43,479
I know, I found some really expensive ones. I don't

1745
01:44:43,479 --> 01:44:45,319
know if I have the exact one he's looking for.

1746
01:44:45,359 --> 01:44:45,560
Speaker 2: Though.

1747
01:44:48,359 --> 01:44:51,359
Speaker 1: Well, when I type in Hakika, what you get is

1748
01:44:52,199 --> 01:44:55,520
just like the wicked Wikipedia shit is like four stages

1749
01:44:55,560 --> 01:44:59,560
of knowledge or truth and Islam in Sufism, it says,

1750
01:45:00,359 --> 01:45:01,640
what were the four again?

1751
01:45:02,760 --> 01:45:04,039
Speaker 2: First one is Ebara?

1752
01:45:05,079 --> 01:45:08,079
Speaker 1: Okay, this one? So this is different. Nevermind, it's different.

1753
01:45:12,560 --> 01:45:17,159
I know it ain't eric Obara. Hey, it might be

1754
01:45:17,720 --> 01:45:21,279
maybe Erica bar Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you, all right,

1755
01:45:21,399 --> 01:45:26,199
thank you, Thank you, Israel. Appreciate that. I'm getting pretty tired.

1756
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:28,600
A really good call there from Israel. It's a really

1757
01:45:28,600 --> 01:45:33,079
great points. Appreciate that and raise some good objections on

1758
01:45:33,880 --> 01:45:37,720
Genesis eighteen and nineteen. I still think the evidence is

1759
01:45:37,760 --> 01:45:40,560
on the side of it being the Lord and two angels.

1760
01:45:40,560 --> 01:45:46,560
So guys, if you want to support the stream, you

1761
01:45:46,560 --> 01:45:48,640
can also head over to chalk dot com, seach o

1762
01:45:48,720 --> 01:45:51,960
q dot com the best in supplementation on the Internet,

1763
01:45:52,199 --> 01:45:57,039
and that is the show sponsor, chalk dot com. Let's see,

1764
01:45:57,039 --> 01:45:59,399
somebody asks a question about you just pro j forty

1765
01:46:00,000 --> 01:46:02,119
Is you already get forty percent off? Somebody had a

1766
01:46:02,319 --> 01:46:07,520
theophany question, where did it go? Mister Anderson three dollars?

1767
01:46:07,520 --> 01:46:11,840
What is the orthodox y of the shikaina? Well, that's

1768
01:46:11,840 --> 01:46:14,960
what I'm saying, Like, it's an energetic manifestation the fire

1769
01:46:15,000 --> 01:46:19,000
in the cloud. We know the divine fire is you know,

1770
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:22,479
Paul says, our God is a consuming fire. So that's

1771
01:46:22,520 --> 01:46:25,640
an energetic manifestation of the divine energy, divine power, the

1772
01:46:25,640 --> 01:46:33,560
divine light. The cloud is fascinating because it's also a theophany.

1773
01:46:34,119 --> 01:46:36,399
We know at Mount Sinai there's the darkness of the

1774
01:46:36,399 --> 01:46:40,119
cloud right, which, as the caller pointed out, definitely has

1775
01:46:40,159 --> 01:46:43,720
a reference to apapaticism. But there's also you know this,

1776
01:46:44,079 --> 01:46:48,119
you have this theophany and Lemiticus nine where it's called

1777
01:46:48,159 --> 01:46:53,880
the glory cloud and it comes down and appears to

1778
01:46:53,960 --> 01:46:57,359
all the people and then the fire comes out from

1779
01:46:57,399 --> 01:47:02,399
before yahweh in the cloud. And we also know this

1780
01:47:02,520 --> 01:47:07,479
is part of like God's chariot. It's an angel chariot

1781
01:47:07,560 --> 01:47:12,000
that he rides, and the angels are also present in

1782
01:47:12,039 --> 01:47:17,479
the Theophanes two, and it's primarily though the sun, but

1783
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:22,439
there does appear to be references to that call the

1784
01:47:22,520 --> 01:47:25,760
cloud the spirit. So what could be happening is just

1785
01:47:25,800 --> 01:47:29,840
simply that the cloud is an energetic manifestation of the spirit,

1786
01:47:30,479 --> 01:47:38,239
because in the New Testament Orthodox theology, the tongues of

1787
01:47:38,319 --> 01:47:42,319
fire are at pentecosts or energetic manifestations proper to the spirit.

1788
01:47:43,039 --> 01:47:45,760
The dove is an energetic manifestation proper to the spirit.

1789
01:47:46,439 --> 01:47:49,439
But there's as I think about it, there's nothing that's

1790
01:47:49,520 --> 01:47:54,640
precluding the cloud also being an Old Testament energetic manifestation

1791
01:47:54,680 --> 01:47:57,800
of the spirit. But it's just something that we're not

1792
01:47:57,960 --> 01:48:02,960
depicting in the icons, since after the New Testament is

1793
01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:12,159
not proper to depict the Old Testament representations anymore in iconography.

1794
01:48:14,239 --> 01:48:16,159
But I was looking, but I was looking at the

1795
01:48:16,359 --> 01:48:20,960
icon of Elijah, which my priest gave us a print

1796
01:48:21,039 --> 01:48:25,119
version of a nice icon of Elijah. But that's an

1797
01:48:25,119 --> 01:48:28,560
Old Testament icon, but it has pretty sure it has fire.

1798
01:48:30,119 --> 01:48:33,199
Let's see if we can find it. But maybe that's

1799
01:48:33,239 --> 01:48:38,520
proper to Old Testament figures to depict them. This is

1800
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:40,760
a really good question. I don't actually this might go

1801
01:48:40,880 --> 01:48:55,319
beyond what I know. Cloud and Orthodox icons, so we

1802
01:48:55,479 --> 01:49:14,960
do see the Virgin at times on a cloud. I

1803
01:49:15,000 --> 01:49:17,239
want to say that that Ezekiel icon as cloud too.

1804
01:49:17,319 --> 01:49:29,000
Let's see, here's angels on clouds. In Orthodox iconography, clouds

1805
01:49:29,039 --> 01:49:33,640
often symbolize divinits your divine presence. You see that often

1806
01:49:33,720 --> 01:49:41,159
with the thea tokos. Let's see. Let's see if I

1807
01:49:41,159 --> 01:49:48,119
can find that Elijah icon. It's a pretty uh interesting

1808
01:49:48,239 --> 01:49:55,000
older Russian icon. It looks like this kind of this

1809
01:49:55,159 --> 01:49:58,279
isn't it the one that I have? But it looks

1810
01:49:58,359 --> 01:50:06,560
kind of like this, So there is cloud and fire.

1811
01:50:07,720 --> 01:50:11,520
That probably is That probably is a theophenic because if

1812
01:50:11,560 --> 01:50:16,439
you remember, doesn't the Holy Spirit play a crucial role

1813
01:50:17,359 --> 01:50:21,279
in the ministry of Elijah and the giving of the

1814
01:50:21,319 --> 01:50:26,199
double anointing, the double portion of the Spirit to Elisha.

1815
01:50:27,640 --> 01:50:30,439
So I would venture to say that that probably is

1816
01:50:30,479 --> 01:50:34,520
an indicator of the spirit, because we know in many

1817
01:50:34,560 --> 01:50:44,079
of the Theophanes, doesn't Paul say baptized in the cloud

1818
01:50:44,479 --> 01:50:46,880
and then the sea, as he mentioned that baptized in

1819
01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:49,520
the cloud in the sea. That would be the glory cloud.

1820
01:50:49,560 --> 01:50:54,239
That would be the spirit. The spirit hovers over Mary,

1821
01:50:54,920 --> 01:50:57,840
the glory cloud hovers over the temple, over the ark,

1822
01:50:59,279 --> 01:51:03,079
the spirit is over Mary. So it seems like it

1823
01:51:03,079 --> 01:51:16,239
would have to be. Let's see, I've got a list

1824
01:51:16,319 --> 01:51:20,399
of a bunch of spirit related Theophanes here. Oh, there's

1825
01:51:20,399 --> 01:51:29,479
a bunch. But yeah, Paul, Paul says, baptizing the cloud

1826
01:51:29,479 --> 01:51:42,960
in the sea, right, Yah. First, Granians tend to they

1827
01:51:42,960 --> 01:51:47,800
were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

1828
01:51:47,920 --> 01:52:03,079
That's the glory cloud right in the beginning.

1829
01:52:13,640 --> 01:52:20,039
Speaker 15: Hellope, yeah, yeah, Hey, so thanks for having me back

1830
01:52:20,039 --> 01:52:22,159
on again. I had a question about in terms of

1831
01:52:22,279 --> 01:52:24,600
I know you all typically when you debate with Roman

1832
01:52:24,640 --> 01:52:26,960
Catholics and stuff and talk about the papacy and these

1833
01:52:27,000 --> 01:52:29,399
different things. Something I was thinking about the other day

1834
01:52:29,399 --> 01:52:31,560
and I just kept thinking about because I remember Martin

1835
01:52:31,600 --> 01:52:34,680
Luther was thinking about back in the day mortal sin

1836
01:52:35,159 --> 01:52:37,680
and how that relates to different things, and just I

1837
01:52:37,680 --> 01:52:40,159
want to make sure I'm thinking about this correctly, because

1838
01:52:40,239 --> 01:52:42,920
it sounds like a total contradiction in the Catholic way

1839
01:52:42,920 --> 01:52:47,840
of thinking. If you have adulteries of mortal sin and

1840
01:52:48,319 --> 01:52:50,520
you commit a mortal sin, you don't confess that, you

1841
01:52:50,560 --> 01:52:53,560
go to Hell, and you're not supposed to be in

1842
01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:56,920
communion with people that don't have your dogma.

1843
01:52:57,479 --> 01:52:57,680
Speaker 4: Right.

1844
01:52:58,159 --> 01:53:01,760
Speaker 15: But I saw something that said the Eastern churches do

1845
01:53:01,920 --> 01:53:06,159
economia and allow for divorce and remarriage in case of adultery.

1846
01:53:06,840 --> 01:53:10,119
But if you get divorced from remarriage for adultery, you

1847
01:53:10,159 --> 01:53:12,399
commit adultery, which is immortal sins.

1848
01:53:12,520 --> 01:53:14,520
Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't know that. That would be a pretty

1849
01:53:14,600 --> 01:53:17,520
killer I just caught that. I didn't. Yeah, that would

1850
01:53:17,800 --> 01:53:18,560
let's say that's true.

1851
01:53:18,600 --> 01:53:22,520
Speaker 15: Let's see, Uh, it's cannon fifty eight or eighty five, maybe.

1852
01:53:22,840 --> 01:53:23,399
Speaker 2: One of them.

1853
01:53:24,199 --> 01:53:27,600
Speaker 15: I don't remember. Let me see the photos. Is this

1854
01:53:27,720 --> 01:53:28,640
was earlier today?

1855
01:53:29,720 --> 01:53:34,840
Speaker 1: I've never known about that. That's actually a really interesting question. Yeah,

1856
01:53:35,359 --> 01:53:42,560
because I mean the this, I mean, I'm just using AI,

1857
01:53:42,640 --> 01:53:43,800
which could obviously be wrong.

1858
01:53:43,920 --> 01:53:44,760
Speaker 4: That's what I'm doing.

1859
01:53:45,000 --> 01:53:48,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, it says Eastern ride churches do not permit this.

1860
01:53:50,199 --> 01:53:53,199
Speaker 4: You have to ask the question the right way, right, because.

1861
01:53:52,920 --> 01:53:55,159
Speaker 15: They say that, and then you ask it a slightly

1862
01:53:55,199 --> 01:53:57,119
different way and they're like, oh wait, yeah, they do

1863
01:53:57,199 --> 01:54:00,199
it for economia, and the Latin Church doesn't say that

1864
01:54:00,279 --> 01:54:03,920
it's uh.

1865
01:54:02,399 --> 01:54:03,520
Speaker 4: They say like, well, no it's not.

1866
01:54:03,960 --> 01:54:06,319
Speaker 15: It's not really adultery, so it's not really immortal sin.

1867
01:54:06,479 --> 01:54:09,319
Because I say so, it's basically.

1868
01:54:09,039 --> 01:54:13,039
Speaker 4: What they say. Hmmm, yeah, this is what I've been.

1869
01:54:13,279 --> 01:54:14,760
Speaker 15: This is what I've been really kind of like I

1870
01:54:14,800 --> 01:54:17,760
was even at earlier today, like how you're saying they

1871
01:54:17,760 --> 01:54:20,600
were they're denying the Theophanes.

1872
01:54:20,640 --> 01:54:23,039
Speaker 1: Now, yes, many of them are.

1873
01:54:23,359 --> 01:54:26,119
Speaker 15: So I was just at and I can I don't know,

1874
01:54:26,159 --> 01:54:27,520
maybe I can tell you, I don't know.

1875
01:54:27,720 --> 01:54:30,279
Speaker 1: I mean, all the Thomas will, all the Thomas will

1876
01:54:30,319 --> 01:54:32,119
the only Roman Catholics who are going to be better

1877
01:54:32,159 --> 01:54:35,960
than the theology and admit Theophanes are the ones that

1878
01:54:36,000 --> 01:54:39,239
are like, you know, just don't care about Tomism.

1879
01:54:39,239 --> 01:54:41,520
Speaker 15: But if you don't even need that, dude, I took pictures.

1880
01:54:41,720 --> 01:54:43,760
I went to like I told you, I'm going between

1881
01:54:43,800 --> 01:54:44,319
the two of them.

1882
01:54:44,520 --> 01:54:45,079
Speaker 2: I was at an.

1883
01:54:44,960 --> 01:54:48,319
Speaker 15: Adoration chapel today. Their Bible study, their Bible, their study

1884
01:54:48,359 --> 01:54:52,479
Bible in the adoration chapel says so it says it's Jesus.

1885
01:54:53,359 --> 01:54:55,720
Speaker 1: Well I would I would just I would just say again,

1886
01:54:56,079 --> 01:55:05,600
many of them are better than their official theology. Okay, anyway,

1887
01:55:05,960 --> 01:55:08,720
but thank you for those questions you get suck. What's up?

1888
01:55:08,760 --> 01:55:08,920
Speaker 21: Man?

1889
01:55:11,159 --> 01:55:14,399
Speaker 12: So yeah, I was just thinking, even what this honor

1890
01:55:14,399 --> 01:55:17,760
as Christianity is doing, maybe it's best to like try

1891
01:55:17,800 --> 01:55:20,920
to talk with David Wooden AP because they're gonna be

1892
01:55:21,079 --> 01:55:24,680
reviewing a debate. I think it would be like nice

1893
01:55:24,720 --> 01:55:29,279
because for the Christian Muslim community, like the Christian versus

1894
01:55:29,359 --> 01:55:31,680
Muslim community, like this is a pretty big deal. So

1895
01:55:32,640 --> 01:55:37,000
getting up and like defending yourself there would be.

1896
01:55:36,279 --> 01:55:38,960
Speaker 1: But I think you mean to David wood In AP.

1897
01:55:39,840 --> 01:55:40,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, David would AP.

1898
01:55:40,800 --> 01:55:42,319
Speaker 12: And then there's gonna be there's gonna be this one

1899
01:55:42,399 --> 01:55:46,319
other Calvinist guy coming up on the stream as well.

1900
01:55:48,920 --> 01:55:50,520
Speaker 1: I mean, if they asked me, I'm not gonna like

1901
01:55:50,560 --> 01:55:53,880
invite myself to their stream. But I mean, I don't

1902
01:55:53,880 --> 01:55:57,319
know I say it, but it's a good idea. I'll

1903
01:55:57,359 --> 01:56:02,279
think about it. Let me we'll see anybody who disagrees.

1904
01:56:02,520 --> 01:56:12,359
Is the last chance if you disagree. I'm not sure

1905
01:56:13,479 --> 01:56:17,079
that's a good question. How will David would an AP interpret?

1906
01:56:18,119 --> 01:56:20,359
I mean, I wouldn't be inclined to think that they

1907
01:56:20,399 --> 01:56:25,119
know Islam enough to recognize that it's just foolish to

1908
01:56:25,199 --> 01:56:31,920
call it the same God. I mean I would think

1909
01:56:34,800 --> 01:56:37,760
all right, guys, remember head remember to chalk dot com.

1910
01:56:37,800 --> 01:56:40,399
Use promo code Jay forty four life to get forty

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four percent off, or use the promo code jy forty

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you get forty percent off. You just want to test

1913
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it out. Check out the ton Kata Lee, check out

1914
01:56:48,680 --> 01:56:55,199
the chad Mode. Those are my favorites. Let's make sure

1915
01:56:55,239 --> 01:56:58,199
I didn't miss a super chat here Aracota twenty dollars.

1916
01:56:58,239 --> 01:57:05,079
It seems like Catholics. It seems the idea that Catholics

1917
01:57:05,159 --> 01:57:11,439
won is just on Twitter. I don't even know. I mean,

1918
01:57:11,560 --> 01:57:15,000
they might be proclaiming on Twitter, but like thousands of

1919
01:57:15,039 --> 01:57:21,039
the comments under YouTube, some people on Reddit. Yeah, I

1920
01:57:21,079 --> 01:57:25,039
don't know who cares what redd It says read Orthodox

1921
01:57:25,079 --> 01:57:28,800
are gay and Acumenists exactly. Good job you made all

1922
01:57:28,840 --> 01:57:33,159
these Catholics spurg out like leftists. Yeah, I mean, ultimately,

1923
01:57:33,199 --> 01:57:35,199
it's just a win for us in the law. Run

1924
01:57:35,680 --> 01:57:39,399
Jason Killer, why'd you block me? I don't know which

1925
01:57:39,399 --> 01:57:45,600
one you are? I said, get a job because of

1926
01:57:45,640 --> 01:57:52,159
your Trump skit you did freedom of speech. I don't

1927
01:57:52,159 --> 01:57:57,079
know what that means. It sounded like boomer shit to me,

1928
01:57:57,319 --> 01:58:03,600
like get a job, not in a ironic boomer an

1929
01:58:03,600 --> 01:58:06,399
intentional sense jo say eleeron God bless you, Thank you man.

1930
01:58:07,159 --> 01:58:09,880
By the way, speaking of Boomers, the new episode of

1931
01:58:09,920 --> 01:58:12,399
Sam Hyde is up and it is Boomers and I

1932
01:58:12,399 --> 01:58:18,600
did contribute to it and we got more awesome episodes

1933
01:58:19,199 --> 01:58:22,399
ready to pop, lock and drop it in the next

1934
01:58:22,560 --> 01:58:28,399
few weeks. Are listed them here on my page two.

1935
01:58:28,399 --> 01:58:30,159
By the way, on the front page of the YouTube channel,

1936
01:58:30,159 --> 01:58:36,680
you can watch the Boomers episode right Jan and Sam

1937
01:58:36,720 --> 01:58:40,840
actually brought a boomer on, which is pretty wild, so

1938
01:58:40,880 --> 01:58:43,199
you can actually see what a boomer is if you

1939
01:58:43,359 --> 01:58:48,000
didn't If you didn't know Codys one dollar. God can't

1940
01:58:48,000 --> 01:58:51,880
deny himself, he cannot. The truth can never be in

1941
01:58:51,960 --> 01:58:59,319
opposition to truth. Proposition to Vatican two says that Muslim's

1942
01:58:59,319 --> 01:59:03,319
the door, the one guy living in subsisten himself. Proposition

1943
01:59:03,359 --> 01:59:07,319
three Islam's Koran denies the Trinity in Christ di entity.

1944
01:59:08,319 --> 01:59:13,239
Either Vatican the Vatican is wrong or Vatican two contradicts.

1945
01:59:13,439 --> 01:59:16,640
Either Vatican one is wrong or Vatican two country dicks. Yeah, exactly.

1946
01:59:16,680 --> 01:59:19,600
There's a lot of different ways to lay this out.

1947
01:59:29,239 --> 01:59:33,720
Thank you, guys. I'm about cooked for tonight because I'm tired.

1948
01:59:34,760 --> 01:59:37,560
A lot of fun though, thank you for the super

1949
01:59:37,640 --> 01:59:42,600
chats everybody tonight, and I'll send some of this to FDA.

1950
01:59:43,319 --> 01:59:47,239
So check out Sam hid Show subscribe at md dot

1951
01:59:47,279 --> 01:59:55,479
tv if you want to support our comedy work. What

1952
01:59:55,560 --> 01:59:57,399
else is there going on? Anything else