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Every 52 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:34.000 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 53 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:38.599 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 54 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:41.479 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 55 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:56.439 Good Evening. This episode of True Murder is brought to 56 00:02:56.439 --> 00:03:02.120 you by Audible, the world's leading name in digital audiobooks. 57 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:08.120 If you visit audiblepodcast dot com slash True Murder right now, 58 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:10.960 you can get a free thirty day trial and a 59 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:16.960 free audiobook of your choice. That's Audible podcast dot com 60 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:23.759 slash True Murder. After his December two thousand and three arrest, 61 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:28.280 registered nurse Charlie Cullen was quickly dubbed the Angel of 62 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:32.560 Death by the media. But Cullen was no mercy killer, 63 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:37.639 nor was he a simple monster. He was a favorite son, husband, 64 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:43.319 beloved father, best friend, and celebrated caregiver, implicated in the 65 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:46.159 deaths of as many as three hundred patients, He was 66 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:50.560 also perhaps the most prolific serial killer in American history. 67 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:55.960 Cullen's murderous career in the world's most trusted profession spanned 68 00:03:56.039 --> 00:04:00.599 sixteen years and nine hospitals cross New Jersey and Psylvania. 69 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:05.080 When in March of two thousand and six, Charles Cullen 70 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:09.280 was marched from his final sentencing in an Allentown, Pennsylvania 71 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:12.719 courthouse into a waiting police van, it seems certain that 72 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:15.960 the chilling secrets of his life, career and capture would 73 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:17.519 disappear with him. 74 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:18.439 Now. 75 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:22.040 In a riveting piece of investigative journalism nearly ten years 76 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:26.199 in the making, journalist Charles Graeber presents the whole story 77 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:29.480 for the first time, based on hundreds of pages of 78 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:35.759 previously unseen police records, interviews, wiretap recordings, and videotapes, as 79 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:39.879 well as exclusive jailhouse conversations with Cullen himself and the 80 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:43.639 confidential informant who helped bring him down. The Good Nurse 81 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:48.360 weaves an urgent, terrifying tale of murder, friendship, and betrayal 82 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:51.959 were it not for the hard boiled, unrelenting work of 83 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:56.160 two former Newark homicide detectives racing to put together the 84 00:04:56.199 --> 00:05:00.079 pieces of Cullen's professional past, and a fellow nurse will 85 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:03.000 to put everything at risk, including her job and the 86 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:05.920 safety of her children, There's no telling how many more 87 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:09.000 lives could have been lost. The book that we're featuring 88 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.759 this evening is The Good Nurse, a true story of medicine, 89 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:17.240 madness and murder, with my special guest journalist and author, 90 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:22.519 Charles Graber. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 91 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:25.000 much for Greenedness interview. Charles Graber. 92 00:05:26.199 --> 00:05:28.360 Thanks for having me Dan, I really appreciate it. 93 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:33.839 Thank you very much. Very interesting story and again, even 94 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:35.800 though we've done this for five years, this is a 95 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:42.439 completely different take on murder. Definitely. Absolutely. Let's get to 96 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:46.959 one of my favorite questions, what specifically brought you to 97 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:49.680 this Why? Of all the stories you could have picked, what, 98 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:53.279 why would Why were you compelled to write this book, 99 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:53.920 The Good Nurse. 100 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:59.560 That's a great question and it's kind of a long answer. 101 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:02.079 So I'm glad you've got a I'm glad you've got 102 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:04.839 a solid block of time for your program. I hope 103 00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:10.399 hopefully it's uh, it actually doesn't peter out informationally it 104 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:13.959 it wasn't my intention to write. I didn't walk into 105 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:17.319 this story and the information that led up to the 106 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:20.959 story thinking I was writing a book. I I started 107 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:25.160 with a newspaper article. Like anybody else, I'm looking through 108 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:29.319 the paper, and I've got an eye out for especially 109 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:35.160 crime items, obviously and especially freaky ones. And I believe 110 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:38.959 the headline, if it didn't say this exactly, it certainly 111 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:44.399 it was something like it was a you know, angel 112 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:47.519 of death serial killer attempts to donate kidney from jail. 113 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:53.240 And I'd never seen that combination of words anywhere obviously before. 114 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:55.480 And it was it was a small small piece. It was, 115 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:59.560 you know, maybe a two inch column, and uh, it 116 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:02.519 was a star about a guy they were calling the 117 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:06.279 Angel of Death who was attempting to donate a kidney, 118 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:08.759 as I said, from Jalen's being stopped from doing so 119 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:15.680 because as as one might imagine, he that didn't fit well. 120 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:19.279 It was something he wanted to do, and and him 121 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:23.040 doing what he wanted to do from at that point 122 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:26.639 jail because he hadn't been sentenced. It really didn't fit 123 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:31.439 many people's idea of punishment, So he was being stopped 124 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:33.079 from doing that, even though there was somebody that was 125 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:37.360 actually going to most probably die without that that guinea. 126 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:40.319 So this is a hugely ironic and kind of crazy situation. 127 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:45.319 And I just thought it was it was it caught 128 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:48.279 my eye and I put it in my in my wallet, uh, 129 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:51.680 for whatever reason. And and then I was having a 130 00:07:52.680 --> 00:07:56.720 lunch with a magazine editor that uh, that I just 131 00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:01.160 finished a piece with about about something else, and he said, 132 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:03.040 isn't there anything else you want to do for us? 133 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:04.959 And I really didn't want to do anything else for them, 134 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:09.040 but I but he said, isn't there anything you're keeping 135 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:10.879 you up nights? Sort of? And I said, well, I've 136 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:12.839 got this thing. And I pulled out my wallet and 137 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:16.199 I had this, you know, this, this one cutout, cut 138 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:18.279 out piece and the thing about it. At that point, 139 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:22.759 Charlie Colin had been arrested. He was arrested in December 140 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:25.480 on December twelfth, two thousand and three, when he was 141 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:32.679 leaving a restaurant in New Jersey and a. At that point, 142 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:36.080 it was accused of of one one murder and one 143 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:40.840 attempted murder. He'd already been fired from his last nursing position. 144 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:47.600 And he at that point had he really refused to speak. 145 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:49.960 And then eventually he did speak, and and it turns 146 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:52.039 out that what they were, you know, what they were 147 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:54.039 accusing him of was really on the tip of the iceberg. 148 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:58.320 But and he sang a song that included some forty 149 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:00.320 people would know that to be probably wrong by factor 150 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:05.200 of ten at this point. But but what what we'd 151 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:07.799 heard as of a of a story Charlie Collen was 152 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:10.399 was about a maybe maybe a mercy killer. The only 153 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:12.080 a guy who wasn't going to say anything else. He'd 154 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:14.399 spoken to the cops. Once he spoken to the detectives, 155 00:09:14.840 --> 00:09:17.399 he wasn't going to address anyone else. He never addressed 156 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:19.559 the press, he never addressed the families of the victims. 157 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:23.279 He wouldn't speak in court except to say, uh, you know, yes, yes, 158 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:26.399 your honor and he and he planned to go away 159 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:26.799 like that. 160 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:27.480 Uh. 161 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:29.399 And so there was no way he was ever going 162 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.120 to speak to me. But I gave it a shot, 163 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:36.679 and he he responded to my letter, mostly because I 164 00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:40.120 I think I I I told him it was you know, 165 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:41.960 it was it was sort of up to him whether 166 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:46.000 or not he wanted h He was willing to put 167 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:48.360 a little bit of himself on the line in order 168 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:50.639 to donate that kidney, because I thought actually donating the 169 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:53.120 kidney was was a good thing. And I told him, 170 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:57.120 you know, there's stuff he did good and bad, and 171 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:00.440 and I'm I'm just I'm just here to try and 172 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:02.639 talk about, you know, what happened, not to judge you. 173 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:07.679 I'm not your you know, your your ethical accountant. So 174 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:09.679 just you know, if you want to talk to me, 175 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:11.279 you'll talk to me, and you'll get maybe get that 176 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:14.159 thing done. And if you don't, you know, good luck 177 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:17.759 to you. And he got back. And once I started 178 00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:20.320 talking to him, I started meeting with him, and you know, 179 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:22.679 his own his lawyer couldn't believe that he was talking 180 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:26.600 to me because he wasn't talking to anybody. And I 181 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:31.159 started meeting with him in in the Somerville Jail in 182 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:34.600 Somerset County in New Jersey, where it's being held. And 183 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.440 once I started speaking with with him, I was also 184 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:45.080 speaking with his priest and his lawyer and and and 185 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.720 in those conversations a very different picture emerged. It was 186 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.279 very different from this angel of death, angel of mercy 187 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:56.039 kind of character. It's very different from a picture of 188 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:59.720 a of a guy who had operated for sixteen years 189 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:05.279 different hospitals and nursing home without being detected at all, 190 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:08.279 and then suddenly the system that was designed to catch 191 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:11.639 him caught him, you know, and justice was served in 192 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:15.600 a monstrous put away. What I discovered was something much 193 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:20.919 more complicated, christ I discovered that the the serial killer himself, 194 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:26.080 Charlie Cohen, was more charming than you might think, but 195 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:28.639 not charming in a bundane sense, just sort of someone 196 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:32.840 that he didn't automatically dismiss, you know. He actually had 197 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:34.519 a lot of complexity. He was a smart guy, and 198 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.559 he wasn't smug, He didn't come off that way. And 199 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:41.440 I also learned that, as you know from from reading 200 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:44.320 the book, that the big surprise wasn't you know? The 201 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:47.600 question I get asked all the time is you know, 202 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:51.720 why why wasn't you know? Why wasn't Charlie Cohen caught sooner? 203 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:55.279 And the shocking answer turned out to be he was 204 00:11:55.960 --> 00:11:59.080 over and over again, and somehow we kept on getting 205 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:04.360 let go passed on what you know, however you might 206 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:07.120 want to put it, And he had a remarkable perspective 207 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:10.000 on that he found it. I guess you'd say funny. 208 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:14.360 And when I realized that, I realized, there there's a 209 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:16.840 story here that needs telling. And it was a complicated story. 210 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:20.159 It involved drug drug names and and the you know, 211 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:23.159 the chemistry of the human body, and and a lot 212 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:26.360 of psychology and and some character. There are no explosions, 213 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:29.679 there are no knives, there's no blood, not in that sense, 214 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:32.720 and yet it's the most grizzly story I could imagine. 215 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:36.360 It was going to take some subtle telling. Luckily, you know, 216 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:40.480 happily I got the you know, once I was talking 217 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:43.600 to to Colin, and I was the one guy, uh 218 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:46.960 that could maybe carry that weight. Even though I had 219 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:50.080 to keep it secret for a long time, it became 220 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:52.639 known to other people, including the detectives who caught him 221 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:56.600 and some confidential informants, and gradually people came out of 222 00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:59.399 the woodwork. But the more people that came out, the 223 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:02.399 more comp okay it got, which is why ultimately this 224 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:06.440 story took. It took eight years to tell it, to 225 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:10.039 tell it fully. So that's how that's how that whole 226 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:12.840 thing got. But if i'd known, I mean, I'm really 227 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:15.000 glad to have been able to tell the story and 228 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:16.960 be able to write it out like I like I did, 229 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:19.080 and I've been pleased with the reaction to it, and 230 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:21.200 it was good to get it out of my system, 231 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:23.480 if you will, and get into the world. But I 232 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:25.879 never would have guessed in that moment when that first 233 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:29.120 letter came sliding underneath my door with it. I've spent 234 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:32.320 eight years later, they'll be a you know, neck deep 235 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:33.320 in it. If not deeper. 236 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:42.600 Sure, let's go back to Charles Cullen, because you've got 237 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:45.799 the audience. Certainly the interest has been piqued in terms 238 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:48.600 of what has happened, and but we are just going 239 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:51.200 to touch on how on earth this could have happened 240 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:54.960 for sixteen years and how a character like Charles Cullen 241 00:13:55.720 --> 00:13:59.039 almost got away for channel's how many more years and 242 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:02.320 how many deaths and and will and you go into 243 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:05.559 great detail. You really do capture the the detail of 244 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:09.000 some of these horrible deaths. So we're not talking about 245 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.879 an angel of mercy, an angel of death, stort of 246 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.360 sounds like that, like some benevolence somewhere involved here, and 247 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.759 we're talking about ill people. But we're not talking about 248 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:21.559 that at all. So let's go back to again. A 249 00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:23.759 lot of people want to know how on earth some 250 00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:26.559 of these people are shaped and what could have contributed, 251 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:30.720 not really to blame, but contributed to how they end 252 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:35.600 up and in these particular situations. So tell us about 253 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:39.080 the background of Charles Cullen, where he grew up and 254 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:42.320 uh and how he got to be a nurse. And 255 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:45.960 we're talking about quite a few years ago where a 256 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:49.440 male nurse was not something very common. 257 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:53.039 Was it. So tell us, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're you're 258 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:58.639 absolutely right his you know it's I'm I'm I'm a fan. 259 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:00.919 I'm a fan of the form. I'm a fan of 260 00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:03.720 the genre. I'm a fan of uh uh, of of 261 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:09.279 of serial killer stories of all stripes. But this is 262 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:12.960 the first serial killer and I've actually known personally the 263 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:15.799 first one I worked with, and I mean luckily as 264 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:19.080 I put in some time with it. But some of it, 265 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:21.200 some of it fit the mold, and a lot of 266 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:25.039 it broke it for me in that you know, I'll 267 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.720 just I'll describe the background. I'll describe how it all 268 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:30.480 came to be. And you can see in the book 269 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:32.279 as you read it, you can sort of understand see 270 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.000 the pieces lining up. You can you can understand the 271 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:38.440 pathology come together, you can see patterns forming in the 272 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.039 guy's head and how they and they start to perhaps 273 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:45.240 manifest in his crimes and his murders. But but it's 274 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:47.879 not a completan equation. It's not like this plus this 275 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:51.519 plus this equals automatically a silk serial killers. It's a 276 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.879 there's there's there's a real, a real mystery to it. 277 00:15:56.720 --> 00:15:59.759 So I'll just describe, I describe what we know. Uh, 278 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:03.480 you know. Charlie Combs born in East Orange, New Jersey. 279 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.039 He was born in nineteen sixty. He was a late 280 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:10.879 life baby for his parents, who was I guess you 281 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:13.000 call him a mistake. Really, They hadn't plan on having 282 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:16.240 a kid. Everyone else was older by decades. He had 283 00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:20.360 the other nine children, it was you know, they were 284 00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:25.320 a family that worked and got by. Except his father 285 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:28.399 died when he was just a few months old, and 286 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.240 so that became harder and harder. Some of those older 287 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:37.159 kids were into some rough stuff, and they were, it seems, 288 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:39.480 dealing out of the house, drugs, out of the house, 289 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:43.320 bringing people around. And that was an old wooden house 290 00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:46.799 that I think was filled with a lot of hurt 291 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:50.240 and a lot of strangeness For Charlie, Coleen, that's a hard, 292 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:54.879 hard thing for him to talk about. Our interviews were 293 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:57.320 anything but a confessional. I got what I could get, 294 00:16:57.320 --> 00:16:59.639 and I had to investigate the rest. And he shuts 295 00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:02.080 down on certain stuff. And this is the part where 296 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:07.759 absolutely it's it's as dark going through his memories as 297 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:13.079 it would through an unlit through story house. So there 298 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.160 are some dark quarters in there that even he can't 299 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:20.920 walk into anymore. But when his mother died in a 300 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:26.119 car accident when he was seventeen years old, it was 301 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:31.599 in nineteen seventy seven, it was he learned about it. 302 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:35.279 He used to play sick, pleased to call in sick 303 00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:38.279 to school quite a bit, and he was very very 304 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:40.759 much attached to his mother, and he enjoyed that time 305 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:43.160 that he got to spend with her, especially, and she 306 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:47.160 protected him from the chaos of those rooms upstairs and 307 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:50.400 the older boys and the people that came around to 308 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:53.400 see the older daughters and took them away sometimes and 309 00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:57.799 then brought them back the black eyes. And he depended 310 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:00.960 on his mother in that way and enjoyed being sick, 311 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:05.599 I suppose in that way. And one of his sisters 312 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:09.640 took his mom out to get some Marin's done and 313 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:11.640 uh and never came back. And the police came around 314 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:14.480 to tell him that there had been an accident. They 315 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:18.359 didn't tell him that his sister hadn't taken her medication 316 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:20.279 and had an appleptic seizure at the wheel. And they 317 00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:23.680 didn't tell until Charlie that his mother was dead. And 318 00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:28.920 he went to that hospital and discovered that not only 319 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:31.079 was his mother dead, but they told him is her 320 00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:33.559 body was gone. He never saw her again, and he 321 00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:35.799 was very bitter about that. That's something he cannot speak 322 00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:40.519 about at all, and he he he held that forever. 323 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:44.839 Now just to you know, I'm going to break the 324 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:47.720 chronology here, but a fascinating thing for me. I you know, 325 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:52.079 I spoke to Charlie Collen dozens of times and in 326 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:55.960 jail during his sentencing and and later when he was 327 00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.519 in a maximum security walk up and Trent as a 328 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:02.480 non com you know, and with the guys that are 329 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:05.319 going to get killed by by everybody else if they 330 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:09.240 if they come out of their cell. And he wouldn't 331 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:12.000 ever speak about this part of part of things. But 332 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.279 but one thing that did come out during our discussions 333 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.680 was a different version of the events I'm about about 334 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:21.759 to tell you at all. And and and so I 335 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:23.559 just want to highlight that as we as we go 336 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:27.960 through because when when his mother, when his mother died, 337 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:30.720 he was it was one of the first times he 338 00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:35.119 attempted suicide. It was actually the second first being when 339 00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:36.839 he was eight years old, at least what he said. 340 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:40.119 So when he he he dragged the contents of a 341 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:43.119 of a chemistry set that he'd gotten for Christmas. It 342 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:45.079 was part of the you know, the church charity box 343 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:47.759 because the columns at that point were getting by on 344 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:50.680 on a lot of the kinds of strangers and fellow 345 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:56.079 church members. Uh. After his father died, and but that 346 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:58.759 was self reported, so it's impossible to say for sure. 347 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:02.160 But he but SUSI didn't work. But instead he chose 348 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:06.079 the Navy. And I think that the Navy appeared to 349 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:08.160 him at first but was really a bad fit. He 350 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:11.599 was a smart guy. He got along very well in school, 351 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:16.880 but and and applied and and trying to be a 352 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:20.920 missile technician. But once he got into the subs themselves, 353 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.400 it was like the locker room for hell from hell, 354 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:26.039 you know. He uh, he was just trapped in with 355 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:27.759 a bunch of guys. He's a guy that really liked 356 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:30.440 hanging out with his sisters and being protected by women, 357 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.279 and here he was with exactly the opposite. And he, 358 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:35.240 you know, he didn't want to pee in front of 359 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:37.400 other guys. He didn't want to be It was just 360 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:42.319 it was a situation that that that didn't didn't work 361 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:46.799 for him at all, And and he developed a drinking 362 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:51.559 habit at that point. He demonstrated a clear issue with 363 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:53.519 authority at that point, and he tried to get himself 364 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:59.799 out of that thing, a situation repeatedly by different types 365 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:03.519 of suicide, idiations and and and the like. He finally 366 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:05.519 got out. Now here's the here's the part where the 367 00:21:05.559 --> 00:21:08.960 story is diverge. You know, this is a this is 368 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:13.359 a true story, so and it's a I needed this 369 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:15.640 this you know, I wanted to tell it like a thriller. 370 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:19.599 I wanted to I wanted to be able to rip 371 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:21.720 through it and understand the details and really feel them 372 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:25.400 and smell them, use every tool that uh that a 373 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:29.160 novelist gets to use and h but I wanted to 374 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:32.960 be rooted absolutely in the greatest journalism that we that 375 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:37.799 we you know, just irrefutable as truth is as I 376 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.640 was able to access. So I had to be very 377 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:43.519 careful because there's some things that you know, you'd like 378 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:47.400 to paint in these stories and and you and you 379 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:52.400 can't because you can't really confirm them properly. So and 380 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.039 I solved that partially by sometimes explaining what Charlie said 381 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:58.880 and what Charlie thought, because I knew what he thought, 382 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:01.279 because he you know, it came it come from him. 383 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:03.720 And then I had to make a little differentiation between 384 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:06.599 what I knew the absolute truth to be. Charlie Colin 385 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:09.200 told me how he got into nursing, and he told 386 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.440 me it was because during these times of trouble in 387 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:17.519 the submarine, when he really didn't have another friend, he 388 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:20.839 spent a lot of time in two places in the 389 00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:23.359 in the sick bay where he liked to help out, 390 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:29.039 giving injections and being useful and and uh and seen 391 00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:31.920 as valuable. And also with the chaplain. Uh, you know, 392 00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:33.799 he was a He spent a lot of time with 393 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:37.440 the Catholic Catholic chaplain there. He he had a Catholic background, 394 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:42.200 and the chaplain told him, you know that he thought 395 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:47.599 he would do well in it, maybe taking some some 396 00:22:47.680 --> 00:23:12.559 courses on I didn't properly a real well. 397 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:16.880 We seem to have an interruption here apparently he has 398 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:22.440 contacted this via Skype. I'm not sure if that's exactly 399 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:28.240 what's going on, but we wait for his reconnection. We're 400 00:23:28.279 --> 00:23:33.960 talking with Charles Graber, author of The Good Nurse. We'll 401 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.960