Speaker 1: Imagine yourself a parent, well maybe you are one, and
Speaker 1: suddenly your child starts to complain of an impending feeling
Speaker 1: of doom. Then come apparitions, specters that they seem to
Speaker 1: be able to see that no one else can, scaring
Speaker 1: them very much, sir. And then come the shakes, the
Speaker 1: fugue states, staring into the distance at something that only
Speaker 1: they can perceive. You don't know what to do, so
Speaker 1: you consult with the wisest person that you know, your
Speaker 1: local priest, and he, with heavy heart, tells you that
Speaker 1: your child has been possessed by a demon and it
Speaker 1: must be exercised at all costs. Well, he says, it's
Speaker 1: a demon, but we know now through medical science that
Speaker 1: it's almost certainly something more like an epileptic fit. And
Speaker 1: isn't it strange that so many symptoms of demon possession
Speaker 1: can be explained through natural reasons? So do you believe
Speaker 1: the demons really exist? That we are under threat, being
Speaker 1: controlled and influenced by the minions of the Antichrist? If so,
Speaker 1: please call us. We'd like to hear from you, because
Speaker 1: the show's starting now.
Speaker 2: As amazing Jamie, I love the I don't know and
Speaker 2: you talk about demon possession and I'm on board, but
Speaker 2: welcome everyone. Today is October twentieth, twenty twenty four. I
Speaker 2: am your host, Sophia Spina, and joining me today is Blindlimy.
Speaker 1: Hello.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so how did you land on demons for today's discussion?
Speaker 1: Well, it was our producer and backup host, Richard, who
Speaker 1: said that he'd been looking into demons, and I just
Speaker 1: thought to myself, what angle can I come at it from?
Speaker 1: And I realized that, you know, everything they always say
Speaker 1: is a demon possession is either a completely explainable neurological
Speaker 1: or physiological condition or just being being disobedient, you know,
Speaker 1: been noughty. Therefore it must be the demons. And the
Speaker 1: problem with it is is that exorcism as a practice
Speaker 1: is quite traumatic. You know, of course it's completely useless
Speaker 1: as far as we're aware, but much like other types
Speaker 1: of spiritual healing or faith healing, it is misdiagnosing a
Speaker 1: problem and providing a remedy that does more harm than
Speaker 1: good and then stops a person from getting the help
Speaker 1: they actually need. So yeah, serious stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I know this is like not necessarily something
Speaker 2: we coordinated on, but I just watched The Exorcist for
Speaker 2: the first time also, and was able to sort of
Speaker 2: listen to a lecture about its cultural significance right after.
Speaker 2: It was fascinating, and the idea that people didn't actually
Speaker 2: ask for things like exorcisms. Prior to The Exorcist coming out,
Speaker 2: that wasn't a common thing. Most Americans did not believe
Speaker 2: in exorcisms. But to this day, the majority of Americans
Speaker 2: do believe in exorcism. So it's really a movie that
Speaker 2: created this, this cultural movement and this belief. Something else
Speaker 2: I thought was really interesting was that when you have
Speaker 2: a Catholic exorcism, they behave differently than when there's a
Speaker 2: Protestant exorcism or a Hindu exorcism, or each faith operates
Speaker 2: differently when they are I guess being exercised. And yet
Speaker 2: it's supposed to be a consistent kind of demon or
Speaker 2: demonic force. And I thought that was fascinating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, again, it just shows that it's its perception and quackery.
Speaker 1: And I the fact that people are now saying that
Speaker 1: certain things are demonic or invite the demonic things into
Speaker 1: the house, and that causes trauma to people. I've seen
Speaker 1: like the New what they called it devil panic, what
Speaker 1: do they.
Speaker 2: Call it in the Satanic panic?
Speaker 1: Satanic panic? Yes, So you've got people now taking and
Speaker 1: it's usually actually partially political as well, taking things like oh,
Speaker 1: I I won't have this Taylor Swift stuff in my
Speaker 1: house anymore. It invites in the demons and they take
Speaker 1: it all out and burn it or their Pokemon cards
Speaker 1: or whatever, and it's like, come on, I thought we
Speaker 1: were past this. Like they're just pieces of card with
Speaker 1: cute pretend animals on them. They're not demonic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, something that got me. I have so many thoughts
Speaker 2: at once. I'm having three stooges syndrome. They can't get
Speaker 2: to the door. But when I was younger, I was
Speaker 2: around a lot of folks who were kind of the nice,
Speaker 2: the friendly style of faith, and instead of actually saying, oh,
Speaker 2: the demons are going to get you, they would talk about, well,
Speaker 2: I just don't know that. You know, Pokemon cards are
Speaker 2: honoring to God, and we need to do things that
Speaker 2: honor God, so you know, it's just best not to
Speaker 2: have those in the house. Or when I asked about
Speaker 2: the idea of a Ouiji board, and you know, because
Speaker 2: those are obviously incredibly demonized, I guess is a word
Speaker 2: that works here. And my mother, who I love very
Speaker 2: much as a very smart woman in many ways, and
Speaker 2: she was Church of Christ. They're not quite as they
Speaker 2: don't do exorcisms really that I've heard of much, but
Speaker 2: she would always just say, well, you know, it's better
Speaker 2: not to not to invite anything in, not to leave
Speaker 2: the door open. So I feel like a lot of
Speaker 2: the time we dance around to this idea of demons.
Speaker 2: We're like, well, Jesus cast them out in the Bible,
Speaker 2: so they exist. And they put this happier face on
Speaker 2: our softer face on some aspects of Christianity because they're like, well,
Speaker 2: we don't do those crazy, big exorcisms, and yet you're
Speaker 2: still instilling a fear of demons. When I was a kid,
Speaker 2: I would wonder, if I feel a little bit sick,
Speaker 2: is that a demon telling me I need to Like
Speaker 2: it's tempting me to stay home. But if I go
Speaker 2: to school anyway, maybe there's an opportunity to witness for
Speaker 2: Jesus and the demon knows that. So I'm having this, like,
Speaker 2: you know, in my ten year old mind, this religious debate,
Speaker 2: thinking is a demon telling me to stay home? Or
Speaker 2: am I you know? Is that just me being selfish,
Speaker 2: because also I could just be evil and bad too.
Speaker 2: It was. It's sort of a cluster turkey of the
Speaker 2: mind of a child to live like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine. I can only imagine how traumatic
Speaker 1: it could be to really have these things instilled in
Speaker 1: you as real. It's one of the reasons why I
Speaker 1: like media like Ghostbusters and like the Doom video games,
Speaker 1: where it's like, yeah, demons are real, but we can
Speaker 1: science them to death, Like I don't need an exorcist,
Speaker 1: I need a chain gun and gent in my ears.
Speaker 1: Then we can take on the demons. Anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is really interesting to I don't know, look back,
Speaker 2: and I think I'm still unwinding what this meant for me.
Speaker 2: And I know that you have the privilege of not
Speaker 2: growing up fundamentally religious, and so yeah, I hope my
Speaker 2: children won't have the same reactions that I did. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so real quick talk he Then is a product of
Speaker 2: the Atheist Community of Austin of five oh one c
Speaker 2: three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking,
Speaker 2: and secular humanism, and the separation of religion and governments.
Speaker 2: Talk Ethan is a live call in show and we
Speaker 2: have open lines, so get your calls in at five
Speaker 2: one two nine nine one nine two four to two
Speaker 2: or from your computer at tiny dot cc slash call
Speaker 2: t H. That's tiny dot cc slash c A L
Speaker 2: L t H for Talkthen. Yeah, so we have a
Speaker 2: question of the week as usual and uh called talk
Speaker 2: Ethan to Me. Sorry, I'm always like a little halting
Speaker 2: in my speech as I'm like reading and like look
Speaker 2: at the camera. So just so everybody knows a little
Speaker 2: behind the behind the scenes moment. So it is time
Speaker 2: for our talk Ethan to Me a segment where we
Speaker 2: get into the question of the week. Last week we
Speaker 2: asked you what's really going on at Wednesday night service?
Speaker 2: And here are our top three answers number three and
Speaker 2: I'm gonna get to cut to you for reaction Jamie
Speaker 2: on on these after each one. Ok, number three the
Speaker 2: psycho for twenty is I think how you say this
Speaker 2: YouTube name? What really happens at Wednesday night services? They
Speaker 2: perform rituals to summon demons. They confused with God.
Speaker 1: Ah, yeah, you think you're at your prayers are being
Speaker 1: answered by the Almighty butle but it is perhaps the
Speaker 1: Satan that is doing the fulfilling.
Speaker 2: Really, I think that absolutely is possible. I think some
Speaker 2: of these, particularly like Tick. If I'm gonna say I
Speaker 2: believe in demons, right, I suppose there's a reality where
Speaker 2: that's the case. The more I watch TikTok evangelists, the
Speaker 2: more I'm certain they're listening to them.
Speaker 1: It's also amazing how young they all are. They're all there,
Speaker 1: they're TikTok youngsters looking for clout that they're doing with
Speaker 1: a cross in their hand, and I'm like, this is
Speaker 1: so weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy the number that are shirtless too. Just
Speaker 2: as an aside, like the the hot TikTok evangelists is
Speaker 2: such a weird phenomenon right.
Speaker 1: Now, Rice.
Speaker 2: All right? Number two response to what are they really
Speaker 2: doing at Wednesday night services is from syrill or Siri la,
Speaker 2: what are they really doing at Wednesday services? Studying up
Speaker 2: on their speaking in tongues? You gotta be prepared at
Speaker 2: any time to fake it, I mean channel the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, gloss alalia not a not a real language. It's
Speaker 1: just noises and nonsense. Like again, it's just another thing
Speaker 1: that uses a physiological phenomena to induce a mind state
Speaker 1: that they can use. If you're speaking tongues, you're usually
Speaker 1: becoming breathless, you might get light headed, you'll start feeling
Speaker 1: you fharic. That's God entering you, not the fact that
Speaker 1: you're not breathing properly.
Speaker 2: I love that. I feel like that's one of those
Speaker 2: things that weird. A side story, I let a Bible
Speaker 2: study in high school. I was that religious that I
Speaker 2: was trying to convert people. And I'm sorry everyone, but
Speaker 2: there was a second Bible study and we had Initially
Speaker 2: we're both evangelicals, we were going to work together and
Speaker 2: just do one, but we didn't agree on the importance
Speaker 2: of speaking in tongues. They were way more hardcore about it.
Speaker 2: So we ended up having two separate Bible studies, even
Speaker 2: though we were pretty much from the same wing of Christianity,
Speaker 2: just because that was such an important part of the faith.
Speaker 2: So that was that was curious. Looking back. Our third
Speaker 2: and final response of number one, we have here from
Speaker 2: X million Wednesday night. That's ladies' night, Ama.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, it's just a it's just anoy lady's night.
Speaker 1: Therefore nothing gets taught, no one speaks, because our lady
Speaker 1: shall not teach the thing in the place says Bible. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'd like I'd like a Wednesday Night, Wednesdayight special Communion
Speaker 1: where they switch out the wifers for tabs of LSD.
Speaker 1: Really touch the Lord.
Speaker 2: I know. I wonder how many demons you'd see. I
Speaker 2: feel like, yeah, no, we've frimed people to see demons
Speaker 2: in that specific circumstance. Oh yeah, don't. Don't. Maybe watch
Speaker 2: this show and then do LSD. If you're religious. I
Speaker 2: guess that would be my you know, the one person
Speaker 2: out there that might be a problem for all Right,
Speaker 2: So the prompt for next week is complete the sentence.
Speaker 2: It was a mistake when God blank enter your answer
Speaker 2: below the video and the comments, and next week we
Speaker 2: will reveal the top three answers. But let me go
Speaker 2: to our co host. All right, Jamie, So complete the sentence.
Speaker 2: It was a mistake when God.
Speaker 1: Made it so that we couldn't check his work because
Speaker 1: we can't see before the first plank time. It's like, whoops,
Speaker 1: all the proofs there, but you can't get to it.
Speaker 2: My bad? Yea it Jamie? Right, that's you know, so
Speaker 2: that we would have to have faith to be saved.
Speaker 2: It was actually God playing forty chests.
Speaker 1: All right, George Michael Faith Faith Faith Faith Faith.
Speaker 2: YEP. I mean admittedly, like I do sort of love
Speaker 2: that song.
Speaker 3: So I do.
Speaker 1: I ironically prefer the Limp Biscuit cover because I'm agreebo
Speaker 1: from the nineties, don't you any want?
Speaker 2: Though I've actually never heard the Limp Biscuit cover because
Speaker 2: I was a child in the nineties, So maybe that's
Speaker 2: something I get to look forward to now now I
Speaker 2: realize I just sort of did an age age check
Speaker 2: a moment there. Sorry, Sorry about that. I guess I
Speaker 2: don't know should I be sorry about that. I'm sorry
Speaker 2: if I made you feel old. I guess that's what
Speaker 2: I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1: You can't make me any feel any older than my knees,
Speaker 1: back and ankles do every morning, anyway.
Speaker 2: Fair enough? All right, Well, I love that answer. I
Speaker 2: am anxious to see what our audience comes up with
Speaker 2: in the comment section. Give us your best answer, and
Speaker 2: tune in next week when we read our top three again.
Speaker 2: That question is complete the sentence, It was a mistake
Speaker 2: when God blank. So something that I also want to
Speaker 2: mention is how fantastic all of the people who are
Speaker 2: working behind the scene are. We have video and audio
Speaker 2: people moderators, people who do notes and time stamps for
Speaker 2: the show. We have call screeners. We have an enormous
Speaker 2: number of people who work on the show, so I I, yeah,
Speaker 2: look at that.
Speaker 1: They do all the hard work, so we don't really
Speaker 1: have to sit here in flap argums. It's the easiest
Speaker 1: part of the job.
Speaker 2: Look at all those lovely people who are also so
Speaker 2: kind as to have their cameras on so we can
Speaker 2: see real faces and not just a bunch of icons
Speaker 2: when we're going and thanking them. So I appreciate that,
Speaker 2: and I appreciate the fantastic facial hair that so many
Speaker 2: of them have. Man if I could grow facial hair, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean yours is. I have a lot of good
Speaker 2: facial hair. I'm gonna say this on this show. I
Speaker 2: don't I don't know how that happens.
Speaker 1: It's where the wisdom comes from. The more you look
Speaker 1: like a wizard, I love it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are not a lot of like dyed blonde
Speaker 2: wizards in most fantasy canon unfortunately. So we have a
Speaker 2: call from d who goes by them in Iowa, who
Speaker 2: says that they used to believe in demons, but throughout
Speaker 2: deconversion came to believe they are weaknesses in the mind
Speaker 2: that can be eradicated by education, compassion, and reason. So
Speaker 2: bringing d on, Hey, d I mean I love your
Speaker 2: initial take on demons. Tell us what your what your
Speaker 2: thoughts are?
Speaker 4: Hey, Sophia, nice too, nice to finally get to speak
Speaker 4: with you. Yeah, hello again, Jamie, Hello again. And yeah.
Speaker 4: So in my very early twenties, I had a lot
Speaker 4: of very rare types of experiences, and one that stays
Speaker 4: with me that I was able to deconstruct on my
Speaker 4: own was it was fairly dramatic. I had contracted pneumonia
Speaker 4: and I was in the hospital and it was in
Speaker 4: the middle of the night, and my hospital room door
Speaker 4: opened and this little squat thing comes walking in. Definitely,
Speaker 4: I mean definitely. You look at it and you think demon. Okay,
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh my god, there's a demon in my room.
Speaker 4: And it walked straight up to my bed and it
Speaker 4: wasn't it wasn't even tall enough for the top of
Speaker 4: its head to reach the mattress. But it reached its
Speaker 4: hand up to me and he said, if you take
Speaker 4: my hand, your suffering will stop. Basically, come with me
Speaker 4: and everything will be okay. And instead of accepting I
Speaker 4: was like, no, that was all I had the strength
Speaker 4: to say, but it was no, and it vanished. And
Speaker 4: you know, after I'd recovered, I was out of the
Speaker 4: hospital and went to my doctor with a for a
Speaker 4: check up. And that was when my doctor told me
Speaker 4: that I was dying. I was, I was literally dying.
Speaker 4: The nurses were just waiting to call it. So that
Speaker 4: sucked the hell out of me. And I started really thinking,
Speaker 4: you know, about the significance of this, this creature in
Speaker 4: my room. And as I thought about it and thought
Speaker 4: about it, I realized, are either of you familiar with
Speaker 4: dungeons and dragons?
Speaker 1: I'm playing a game right now.
Speaker 2: I am. I'm married to a big aficionado, and I've
Speaker 2: also played a decent American.
Speaker 4: Okay, so do you know the cover of one of
Speaker 4: the handbooks? It has this demonic statue in it with flames.
Speaker 4: I'll bet your three year old books you'll find it.
Speaker 1: I can I know the types of artwork that are
Speaker 1: on the front. Course I can't. I can't think of
Speaker 1: the exact artwork you're mentioned, but I can imagine.
Speaker 2: It, and I'm not.
Speaker 4: But yes, yeah, it was the spitting image of that cover.
Speaker 4: And I also was an avid avid Dungeons and Dragons
Speaker 4: playing player, and coupled with that, uh, coupled with that experience,
Speaker 4: and it's it's the old. It's the first it's the
Speaker 4: first player's handbook cover.
Speaker 1: Oh right, a little bit before my time I got.
Speaker 1: I got in in third edition. So so D and
Speaker 1: D original and a D and D are a little
Speaker 1: bit a bit old for me.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. If you just siphened first D and
Speaker 2: D Player's handbook cover, it comes up right away, and
Speaker 2: I can totally see what you mean. It's it's a
Speaker 2: fat little dude who's got the pliny teeth and the
Speaker 2: little ears. I totally see what you mean about that.
Speaker 2: Looks like a conception of a team.
Speaker 4: And for sure, uh huh, it was exactly that was
Speaker 4: exactly the thing, except for the color was different. It
Speaker 4: was kind of a muddy brown. But you know, with
Speaker 4: what my doctor told me, and you know, I realized
Speaker 4: at that moment it was not really a demon, that
Speaker 4: it was a figment of a mind that was under
Speaker 4: stress and dying, and it, for some reason, if my
Speaker 4: mind was trying to comfort me, it came up with
Speaker 4: the worst possible thing it could maybe that it was.
Speaker 4: I think that it was an innate attempt to hang on,
Speaker 4: if you see what I mean. And so that is why.
Speaker 4: And unfortunately I went through many, many, many more years
Speaker 4: in fundamentalist Christianity, but I never shook that feeling that
Speaker 4: demons are a figment of what's going on in your
Speaker 4: brain and your life, and that you need to try
Speaker 4: to be reasonable and search out people who are reasonable,
Speaker 4: not necessarily in your church. I turned to them less
Speaker 4: and less as time went on. But yeah, compassion, reason
Speaker 4: and education, that's that's what we need.
Speaker 1: It is, and that's what we promote here. And as
Speaker 1: I said in the cold open like, there are symptoms
Speaker 1: that we can eat easily identify as coming from certain
Speaker 1: maladies that are often attributed to demonic possession and that
Speaker 1: kind of thing. One of the problems, though, is that
Speaker 1: we can be as compassionate and reasonable and evidence based
Speaker 1: as what as we like getting that message across and
Speaker 1: having people accept it. I mean, that's why we do
Speaker 1: these shows. I mean, we can say these things until
Speaker 1: we're blue in the face, but until believers start actually
Speaker 1: accepting that these things are just imagination fuel sparked by
Speaker 1: their priming to believe in the supernatural. We can't. You
Speaker 1: can lead someone to the facts, and you can lead
Speaker 1: someone to the evidence, but they are the ones that
Speaker 1: have to accept it. You can't force someone to let
Speaker 1: go of these irrationalities. We just have to hope that
Speaker 1: when people like yourself come on and give us examples
Speaker 1: of your own deconversion and your own rationale around these
Speaker 1: experiences that you had, that someone out there is going, man,
Speaker 1: I had a very similar experience. Maybe I should start
Speaker 1: asking few questions like D did. So thank you for
Speaker 1: calling in for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I'm sorry. I didn't want to cut on
Speaker 2: your cut on your line, but go ahead. I think
Speaker 2: about how you know, growing up in the church, and
Speaker 2: you probably experienced this too. I've heard similar stories that
Speaker 2: end with and that's how I know God is real.
Speaker 2: A demon tried to tempt me with, you know, removing
Speaker 2: my pain, and that's such a classic kind of story.
Speaker 2: So I so appreciate that this story has a different
Speaker 2: ending that you looked at it and we're like, I've
Speaker 2: seen that demon before, though I was clearly this was
Speaker 2: suggested to me, and that's why I'm seeing that we
Speaker 2: have a bit of an alarm. Go I don't know
Speaker 2: I'm hearing that in the spinner, I don't, okay, I
Speaker 2: think Jamie's looking to see if there's something. But but yeah,
Speaker 2: so I really appreciate that. It's like it actually made
Speaker 2: you more critical instead of less critical, because it was
Speaker 2: this big emotional experience, like have you ever watched BoJack
Speaker 2: Horsemen of All Things? Yeah, it's a cartoon on I
Speaker 2: think in Netflix, and it's it's if you struggle with
Speaker 2: mental illness. I found a lot of value in it
Speaker 2: because a lot it's about a sad horse who used
Speaker 2: to be famous in the nineties. But there's an episode
Speaker 2: where he is dying and he has quite a few
Speaker 2: uh flashes into like different parts of his life, and
Speaker 2: so he at one point asks, is this you know?
Speaker 2: Is this the afterlife? Am I in heaven? Is this purgatory?
Speaker 2: What's going on? And one of the people that he's
Speaker 2: seeing turns to him and just says, no, this is
Speaker 2: just what your brain doing, what it does you know
Speaker 2: as you're dying, This is the pieces that are firing off.
Speaker 2: And I thought that was you know, it can still
Speaker 2: be meaningful and it can still have meant something, but
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to lead to uncritical belief in God.
Speaker 2: So I'm curious, why do you think that others take
Speaker 2: a different track, Because I know that, you know, you
Speaker 2: have a background of faith. I have back in the faith,
Speaker 2: so often people take this different storyline. Why do you
Speaker 2: think that might be?
Speaker 4: Well, I think for me, I was just beginning my
Speaker 4: fundamentalist journey. I hadn't tipped full tilt into it yet.
Speaker 4: And while I had, I had imagery. I had a
Speaker 4: children's Bible, I had imagery of Jesus around me growing up.
Speaker 4: My parents were not religious. So I think that that's
Speaker 4: the main thing, that the main difference there, I think,
Speaker 4: And I think that maybe you know, people just handle
Speaker 4: trauma differently. And yeah, I'm sorry, No, that was basically
Speaker 4: my full thought.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, it's ironic. I actually
Speaker 1: think that some people hold onto these beliefs because they
Speaker 1: find it more comfortable to believe that there are evil
Speaker 1: entities and that causing harm. Rather than face the fact
Speaker 1: that the world is just a natural place that can
Speaker 1: be cold and cruel and uncaring and unfair. People would
Speaker 1: prefer to believe in a malevolent intelligence rather than what
Speaker 1: seems to be random. It's one of the reasons. I
Speaker 1: think people will forgive and handwave the character of God
Speaker 1: despite the fact that he's got a bit of a
Speaker 1: track record of doing horrific, horrific things in the Bible.
Speaker 1: They'd rather have have an all powerful despot than no
Speaker 1: guidance at all. And it's that fear of the unknown
Speaker 1: and being unable to control every aspect of the life.
Speaker 1: Because if it's a demon, that means it's a thing.
Speaker 1: And if it's a thing, you can fight the thing.
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's something you can you can actually combat.
Speaker 1: But I just think it's weirdly as traumatic as it is,
Speaker 1: it's comfortable.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I'm a born skeptic. You know, even some
Speaker 4: of the you know how watered down children's Bibles can be.
Speaker 4: Even some of the things I read in my children's Bible,
Speaker 4: I was like, what, you know? And the fundamentalism was
Speaker 4: just a search, you know, just a short a short
Speaker 4: run on a short highway that I was looking for something.
Speaker 4: I didn't know it at the time, but I was
Speaker 4: dealing with PTSD ADHD bipolar disease that all of that
Speaker 4: wasn't even diagnosed until years later. So I had a
Speaker 4: lot of stuff going on and I was found a
Speaker 4: community that I was comfortable in, but eventually sid things
Speaker 4: happened and my mindset changed and I got out of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like something that I particularly with bipolar deserted,
Speaker 2: that the illusions are part of that, that actually being
Speaker 2: presented with evidence of paranoia somehow, or being able to
Speaker 2: interpret things as evidence for things that are not really there.
Speaker 2: I think people sort of forget that that's part of
Speaker 2: bipolar disorder a lot of the time. But I feel
Speaker 2: like it's so you see how it feels to me
Speaker 2: like the church takes advantage of that a lot of
Speaker 2: the time. Right, They don't bother to learn about what
Speaker 2: this could be. It's just that, oh, well, you know,
Speaker 2: obviously you saw a demon. It's a demon, you know,
Speaker 2: not maybe it's nothing's chasing you. Maybe you're having a
Speaker 2: medical crisis. You know, that's very different. It's interesting to
Speaker 2: me too, that we, yeah, like we lean into these
Speaker 2: ideas of demons culturally during times when there's a lot
Speaker 2: of change. I am so not the first person to
Speaker 2: bring this up by any means, but you think about
Speaker 2: how much the world was changing in the eighties and
Speaker 2: how the Satanic panic became this big fear at the
Speaker 2: same time missing children became a big fear at the
Speaker 2: same time the AIDS crisis was happening. It's just a
Speaker 2: lot is changing in the world, so let's let's just
Speaker 2: all focus on this one thing. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, if you can blame it on demons, you don't
Speaker 4: have any responsibility. And I think that I think that
Speaker 4: in some ways that might be even more powerful than
Speaker 4: believing in a god. Believing in a demon means you
Speaker 4: can blame something else is happening in your life rather
Speaker 4: than taking a good hard.
Speaker 3: Look and seeing.
Speaker 1: It's an interesting thought in change. Uh yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: the amount of get out of get out of responsibility
Speaker 1: free cards. Again in religious doctrines, be it like a demon.
Speaker 1: Maybe do it. I was possessed by the devil. I
Speaker 1: did it, but I'm really sorry forgive me and now
Speaker 1: you are forgiven my son, you know, confessional and all
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. It does you know you can
Speaker 1: once you step back and start looking at these structures
Speaker 1: and these stories and these dogma, you go, yeah, this
Speaker 1: is just built so people can can control control people
Speaker 1: and justify the ills that they do. And and once
Speaker 1: you once you see it, once you spot that you're
Speaker 1: like and it's everywhere, like all of them are doing this.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's nuts and and so again that's why
Speaker 1: we kind of do what we do here. It's like,
Speaker 1: can't you see it's like that film They Live. We're
Speaker 1: trying to put the sunglasses on them and we're having
Speaker 1: that massive back alley fight with with Roddie Roddy Piper
Speaker 1: where it's like put the glasses on. Don't you see
Speaker 1: these really obvious bad red flags in the in the
Speaker 1: things that not just in what you believe, but what
Speaker 1: your beliefs are being used to do to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was at I have heard in person
Speaker 2: a religious man that I knew during his sentencing here
Speaker 2: for child rape, say something about that he must have
Speaker 2: a demon inside him, and my brain glitched really hard,
Speaker 2: because what the hell? And my genuine thought is like,
Speaker 2: it's scarier to think you rape the child because you
Speaker 2: wanted to than it is to think that there's a
Speaker 2: demon in this person forcing them to do this bad thing.
Speaker 2: It's scary to say that this is something humans can
Speaker 2: be driven to do and can choose to do to
Speaker 2: one another without any extraterrestrial interference. That is horrifying. I
Speaker 2: am horrified by that. It doesn't make me feel better.
Speaker 2: I realize to not think it's a demon, to not
Speaker 2: think the devil made him do it. It gives you this
Speaker 2: out for all of humanity, that maybe if we just
Speaker 2: pray hard enough, just drive the demons out enough, just
Speaker 2: send the kids to you hardcore fundamentalist church camps enough,
Speaker 2: just remove things like dungeons, dragons in heavy metal, and
Speaker 2: just take away all satanic influences. If we just suppress
Speaker 2: gangster wrap, then the world will be better. Then people
Speaker 2: will do all of the naturally good things God wants
Speaker 2: them to do instead of the demonic things that they're doing. Instead,
Speaker 2: when I'm like, nah, this is not it's us. It's
Speaker 2: just us, and dealing with that is harder and scarier,
Speaker 2: but at the same time it's more real. It's the
Speaker 2: only way that it will matter what we do is
Speaker 2: if we realize it is us choosing to do these
Speaker 2: evil things. So that was a bit of a speech
Speaker 2: right there.
Speaker 1: But yeah, and it's also there is no divine justice.
Speaker 1: There is no punishment for this person after they're gone.
Speaker 1: They may have done the most heinous thing you can
Speaker 1: possibly imagine, but when they pop their clogs the same
Speaker 1: as all of us. It's blackness. There's not going to
Speaker 1: be a judge waiting for them on the other side.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do have anger. Got to say in
Speaker 2: my heart that's true. Okay, tell me about that, because
Speaker 2: for me it's a very different reaction. So tell me
Speaker 2: about it being comforting.
Speaker 4: That there's there's no forgiveness.
Speaker 1: Basically, Yeah, I still side of the coin. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: may not get punished, but you also can't ask for
Speaker 1: forgiveness either, right, And.
Speaker 4: Maybe that's kind of a bad part of me. I
Speaker 4: don't know.
Speaker 2: It's not a part of it.
Speaker 4: That some of my liberal friends are horrified that I support.
Speaker 4: But I mean, and I'm working on it. I'm I'm
Speaker 4: open to being persuaded otherwise. But I mean, if if
Speaker 4: we can't, if we can't do capital punishment, then at
Speaker 4: least we know he's not going to at least get
Speaker 4: any forgiveness out of it. I think you are the
Speaker 4: only people that forgiveness belongs to would have been the
Speaker 4: family of that little girl. They are really the only
Speaker 4: people that could legitimately extend it, and that's their decision
Speaker 4: whether they do or not.
Speaker 2: Oh No, I think that sometimes you know, It's interesting
Speaker 2: because for me, I took a different perspective. I like
Speaker 2: yours because it does make me feel a little better.
Speaker 2: But you know, he's going to still even in present,
Speaker 2: he's going to be told by the other religious folks
Speaker 2: there that that's some kind of legitimate thing for him
Speaker 2: to just to conceptualize this as that he will he'll
Speaker 2: receive forgiveness, that that sin can be wa washed away,
Speaker 2: and that all sins are the same, and someone will
Speaker 2: smirk at them and say, no, one is righteous, no,
Speaker 2: not one, which has been told to me so often
Speaker 2: by Christians, even when I bring up something heinous like
Speaker 2: child rape right at verse man nikes yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 2: so I.
Speaker 4: Have there is yeah, I think is that if there
Speaker 4: is any cosmic justice at all in the universe, he
Speaker 4: may be granted just enough time to realize that it's
Speaker 4: all a lie.
Speaker 1: And the thing is like no matter what happens to him,
Speaker 1: like we said that girl kind of be unerraped, and
Speaker 1: that brings a sign to the whole uva of of
Speaker 1: like divine punishment and divine justice being wrong in its receptions,
Speaker 1: Like God doesn't intercede in that horrific thing. It's part
Speaker 1: of the plan but he'll get his just desert the afterlife,
Speaker 1: don't you don't you know? And I'm like, that is
Speaker 1: not justice, that's not fair. So yeah, yet another aspect
Speaker 1: of religious dogma that I can't get on board with.
Speaker 4: And you know, their favorite, their favorite argument is free will?
Speaker 4: What about that little girl's free will? Don't talk about
Speaker 4: free will. That's not a thing I'm.
Speaker 1: Going to get. Like, there's there's rants I could go
Speaker 1: on about that. There's a there's a there's a yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a there's an exhibit in any music. I can't
Speaker 1: remember exactly where it was, but it's an exhibit of
Speaker 1: the clothes were worn bisexual assault victims in uh And
Speaker 1: it's the whole like, well, she was asking for it?
Speaker 1: She was seven and wearing dungarees. Was she asking for it?
Speaker 1: How was she asking for it? And it boils my blood.
Speaker 1: I've been a step dad, I've been in charge of kids.
Speaker 1: I have had that protective kind of thing and just
Speaker 1: the idea of someone Yeah, I canrdly put it into words.
Speaker 1: I can only just put it into like angry sounds basically,
Speaker 1: and to have it justified.
Speaker 4: Oh no, no, no, no, I got you. I got
Speaker 4: your demonic. I got your demonic exorcism right here, and.
Speaker 2: Do you will exercise? Yeah? I love it all right. Well,
Speaker 2: we've kept you on for a while.
Speaker 4: I needed to share.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that a lot. Thank you so much for calling.
Speaker 2: It was really nice to be able to chat with you.
Speaker 2: I've heard you the show before and I just appreciate
Speaker 2: your presence in many ways. And yeah, thanks for being
Speaker 2: here to have this heavy conversation with us too.
Speaker 4: Be Thank you you guys. You have a wonderful day.
Speaker 1: Thank you. It's nice to sort of hear stories of
Speaker 1: deconversion in people finding finding reason and yeah, the whole
Speaker 1: divine justice thing. It's like, I've got your law and
Speaker 1: order right here.
Speaker 2: I know it is interesting too, because I feel like
Speaker 2: a lot of the folks who want a physical, human
Speaker 2: level retribution are people who also claim to believe in
Speaker 2: a god, and I find that kind of interesting. I'm
Speaker 2: like that they don't necessarily believe. I would see it
Speaker 2: as they don't actually believe this divine justice is coming.
Speaker 2: They also want to have their moment, and it's saying
Speaker 2: that Jesus forgave this person who may have committed multiple
Speaker 2: murders or whatever. It may be that's not good enough
Speaker 2: for them either, you know, so why act like it
Speaker 2: is for us?
Speaker 1: Sorry? Is the thing as angry as I got that
Speaker 1: pro priest and anyone who does those heinous things, as
Speaker 1: much as I hope that they are punished for extent
Speaker 1: of the law, and if I mean, is rehabilitation possible,
Speaker 1: there's a big old discussion to get around that. I
Speaker 1: still don't think they deserve hell. I still think that
Speaker 1: hell is too extremely punishment for a crime, even that heinous.
Speaker 1: So again, these dogmas like oh hell, burn in hell forever.
Speaker 1: That's like, there's no crime I can think of, even
Speaker 1: one that bad that would deserve eternal torment.
Speaker 2: You know, I think for me it's a relief to
Speaker 2: not have to be deciding who deserves what and to
Speaker 2: not feel like I have any ability to determine that.
Speaker 2: I have the ability to help look at laws, past laws,
Speaker 2: discuss what is actually you know what, I have the
Speaker 2: ability to affect. But I don't need to have some big,
Speaker 2: all encompassing idea of justice in this situation. It's I
Speaker 2: just need to think about how we live in a
Speaker 2: society with a we have now, And I've said before
Speaker 2: that it's good that I'm not in charge of all laws,
Speaker 2: because what I would feel should be done to someone
Speaker 2: who assaults a child and pretty much anyway, would be
Speaker 2: to have their skin graded off by a cheese grater
Speaker 2: and then throw them in a put an acid. You know, like,
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's pretty inhumane. I'm glad I'm not in
Speaker 2: charge of deciding that. You know, it's a good thing
Speaker 2: for everyone, that it's not just up to me and
Speaker 2: my feelings about what some divine dictate is giving me here, you.
Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, yeah, I think with a sort of super
Speaker 1: chat flasher, I think I did too.
Speaker 2: I haven't seen it come through on our little messages yet, and.
Speaker 1: This as soon as as soon as it do, we
Speaker 1: will read.
Speaker 2: Yes, we saw you. That's what we can say, we
Speaker 2: saw you come through real quick. Before that, we can
Speaker 2: talk about our cool fundraiser. As many of you know,
Speaker 2: we have initiated Phase two of our brick fundraiser. We
Speaker 2: want to highlight some of these standout orders we've received.
Speaker 2: This week's featured brick comes from Cassie from Louisiana. Drop
Speaker 2: your faith like a brick. That's so good. I'm giving
Speaker 2: snaps because I'm a cheesy person. But that's amazing. Thank
Speaker 2: you for your purchase, Cassie. You can get yours and
Speaker 2: put your clever little quip or something simple or whatever
Speaker 2: it is you want to put on it there at
Speaker 2: tiny dot c c slash ACA bricks. That's tiny dot
Speaker 2: cc slash ACA Bricks, and so yeah, it's I absolutely
Speaker 2: think you're making a permanent mark on the atheist community
Speaker 2: of Austin and where we're located, which is amazing. Not
Speaker 2: I guess that's why not all of the hosts are
Speaker 2: located there, but it's where the headquarters of this of
Speaker 2: this little nest of heathens. So you get to yeah,
Speaker 2: you get to put something there. It's really special.
Speaker 1: Actually, so yeah, something something bricked up, something something funny,
Speaker 1: because painous. Could you wanted to come up with a
Speaker 1: have a joke. I'm just going to acknowledge that there
Speaker 1: is a dirty joke to be made out of that.
Speaker 2: I honestly feel like sometimes I'm just ready for that.
Speaker 2: Just you know, you mentioned Jenitalia, I'm I have the
Speaker 2: sense of humor of a middle school boy. Yeah. Available
Speaker 2: on tiny dot cc slash ACA Flyers our principal call
Speaker 2: in flyers as well. So post these with permission to
Speaker 2: community bulletin boards, so people know they should call our
Speaker 2: show and defend their faith. If you do post any flyers,
Speaker 2: make sure to snap a picture of it in place
Speaker 2: and send it to TV at Atheist dash Community dot org.
Speaker 2: That's TV at Atheist dash Community dot org. And we
Speaker 2: may feature your photo on an upcoming show. So yeah,
Speaker 2: stick these up. Also, you know, just tell your friends
Speaker 2: if you get into an argument about religion or something
Speaker 2: like that and you're like, you should really give a
Speaker 2: call to this show and discuss it with the people
Speaker 2: who have signed on to discuss this with you. That's
Speaker 2: definitely a good idea.
Speaker 1: Indeed, and have we perhaps I don't know whether I'm
Speaker 1: jumping around in the script, but maybe you should also
Speaker 1: thank some patron. Is that something we can.
Speaker 2: Yes, we will get there in one moment. First, I'm
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Speaker 2: Talk Heathen, just one word, Talk Heathen and join us
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Speaker 2: have merch get your talk Heathen merch at tiny dot
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Speaker 2: I need to get one of those wenesies. I keep
Speaker 2: not doing it. I need to do it. And then yeah,
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Speaker 2: your child? Yeah, there's all sorts of goodies there. So
Speaker 2: definitely go to tiny dot cc slash merch Aca. I
Speaker 2: think I said that wrong. It's merches first. Merch Aca.
Speaker 2: Please like this video and subscribe to the channel, do
Speaker 2: all the things that help us enablementifications, and comment below
Speaker 2: on your favorite caller or your thoughts on demons or
Speaker 2: your favorite demon. I mean, come on, why not? And
Speaker 2: uh so, yeah, all right, I see there are super
Speaker 2: chats that were made in Giant Giant Fought Now so
Speaker 2: that I will be able to see them very obviously.
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm a bit notorious for missing things
Speaker 2: that are very clearly in our show document. So yes,
Speaker 2: here are some super chats we have. We have Nero
Speaker 2: five dollars and says so D saw a tiny grand
Speaker 2: duke Moloch, Lord of the sixth Circle, viceroyal bells above
Speaker 2: Lucky also three point five e is that experienced superiority
Speaker 2: slay the gods. I love that Nero had much of
Speaker 2: a better idea of going on then.
Speaker 1: We us three point five edition. I bet Nero place
Speaker 1: path find now. But he's one of those people anyway.
Speaker 2: Well, he'll have to let you send it another super
Speaker 2: chat to let us know. I'm like, thank you for
Speaker 2: the five dollars. We want to keep knowing more about
Speaker 2: your depth of knowledge of this particular story. We have
Speaker 2: less than Lucid, who sent six dollars and sixty six cents.
Speaker 2: Aah love it. Hey, quick reminder that it is Ace week.
Speaker 2: Asexuals are all valid. That is true. We celebrate all
Speaker 2: of the sexualities here on the show SLASH, at least
Speaker 2: when we're hosting. I think everybody does. But yeah, being
Speaker 2: ace is totally valid. I think it gets short shift
Speaker 2: sometimes it's it's not discussed openly, but it is totally
Speaker 2: possible to simply not be particularly sexually interested in folks.
Speaker 2: And there's even a spectrum within that I know, And
Speaker 2: so yeah, that's that's awesome. I also recommend but Jack
Speaker 2: Horseman again because as a really major ACE character with
Speaker 2: a wonderful storyline about it.
Speaker 1: Oh, the several the several content creators on the internet
Speaker 1: either are ACE. I very much enjoy Jade Animations is
Speaker 1: one and overly sarcastic productions. Read can recommend their content
Speaker 1: very good. They're also both ero ace and are awesome.
Speaker 1: People can recommend I love it.
Speaker 2: You know, all the people I know who are a
Speaker 2: are awesome people just as like a sage. Note, I
Speaker 2: don't huh.
Speaker 1: This is one of the frustrating things that I see
Speaker 1: about Whenever the whole like anti LGBT or anti trans
Speaker 1: or any any sort of thing comes out, it almost
Speaker 1: seems surreal because I'm like, have you met any of
Speaker 1: these people? Because every single one I've met has been
Speaker 1: a singularly excellent person like and also weirdly talented.
Speaker 2: It's true.
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, every single trans person I've known personally has
Speaker 1: either been like a doctor or a physicist or a
Speaker 1: rocket sign taste or like, I mean, I don't know
Speaker 1: what it is. Maybe you get magic fucking powers to
Speaker 1: as a as A as a compensation for all the
Speaker 1: horrific months since you've got to put up with as
Speaker 1: a marginalized person.
Speaker 2: But I hope so I feel like that would be
Speaker 2: that would be just you know, I would say though,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure I am sort of assuming you agree
Speaker 2: with this too, is that even if you are a
Speaker 2: total piece of shit, you deserve rights. So even if
Speaker 2: you were a transperson who also is just like I'm
Speaker 2: just going to be a meani, then you still deserve rights.
Speaker 2: Just don't be a meani. I would recommend I have
Speaker 2: another super chat from some kind of Dicky who is
Speaker 2: a member of one month. Thank you very much for
Speaker 2: being a member, sent five dollars. If you can blame demons,
Speaker 2: you don't have to take responsibility collar D quoted for truth.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: Also, some kind of speaking of D and D sometimes
Speaker 1: some kind of Dicky is our DM. He's hard Engin master.
Speaker 1: So thank you, Scott.
Speaker 2: That's really cool. I didn't I didn't know that actually.
Speaker 2: And then Richard, Okay, I still am not sure if
Speaker 2: it's Giliver or Gilver, and I'm going to feel like
Speaker 2: an idiot about this, but you all know him in Lovin.
Speaker 2: It's a member of two years who and our producers
Speaker 2: at five pounds because he's British and fancy I don't
Speaker 2: know why all British things are fancy. They just are
Speaker 2: to me. But I'm just going to call the keyboard
Speaker 2: warrior theis out, stop preaching and start calling. It's really
Speaker 2: really easy to do. Yes, give us some calls, you
Speaker 2: keyboard warriors. Yes, I'm sure your mouth can move faster
Speaker 2: than your fingers. I don't need as far. The implications
Speaker 2: are saying.
Speaker 1: That, I guess far easier to stand and heckle at
Speaker 1: the sidelines than suffer the spear at the point of
Speaker 1: at tech.
Speaker 2: I love it. That's hard. I like that a lot.
Speaker 2: What is that from?
Speaker 1: Are you paraphrasing from King Ralph? Speaking of British people
Speaker 1: and American people and royalty and stuff? So pretty funny
Speaker 1: film that once John Goodman becomes the King of England.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that sounds great. I love He's one
Speaker 2: of my celebrity presses. Weirdly, I know that's a strange
Speaker 2: one for some people, but who doesn't loved Goodman anyway?
Speaker 2: All right, So we actually have another caller, Bruce he
Speaker 2: him from Alabama, on their approach to atheism. Instead of
Speaker 2: preaching at theis, ask questions and talk about the mechanisms
Speaker 2: behind their beliefs. Okay, let's talk about that. Bruce. Tell
Speaker 2: me about your approach to atheism and what's going on there.
Speaker 3: So, what we do a lot of times as atheist
Speaker 3: is we approached the subject, but the way we would
Speaker 3: talk to another intellect, for instance, we say, Okay, I've
Speaker 3: got these facts that disprove of God, or you know
Speaker 3: your facts that prove of God. Here, I'm going to
Speaker 3: show how those are fallacious. I think an approach that
Speaker 3: I've used more is to say ask questions like, Okay,
Speaker 3: faith is a virtue, why that's not a behavior of
Speaker 3: an institution is trying to give you truth. If it
Speaker 3: was truth, they would say, look at the fact, But
Speaker 3: rather they say they present this mechanism that you would
Speaker 3: expect to hear from a car used car salesman.
Speaker 2: You follow me, Yeah, I'm actually jotting that down. I'm like,
Speaker 2: that's a good question.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Other examples might be, you know, people say, okay, I've
Speaker 3: got this proof that the world is six thousand years old,
Speaker 3: and we come back and say, oh, that's not proof
Speaker 3: because of this, Well, they have a defense mechanism that
Speaker 3: they've been taught against.
Speaker 2: That.
Speaker 3: So if you take it to the next step and say, okay,
Speaker 3: if they had to do this, if they had to
Speaker 3: use this fallacious argument, that's a behavior again of something
Speaker 3: that is someone that is trying to sell you something
Speaker 3: rather than something just trying someone is trying to give
Speaker 3: you a truth.
Speaker 1: You follow me, I think so though I would I
Speaker 1: would push back slightly. I'm sorry, go ahead, I'd say
Speaker 1: I pushed back slightly, because if you're trying to convince
Speaker 1: them that that that these are techniques that are given
Speaker 1: to them by organizations and thought process thought models that
Speaker 1: are not heeding towards truth, they will say, no, I
Speaker 1: have the truth. It has to be revealed to me.
Speaker 1: Like they are convinced they are they have the truth,
Speaker 1: and so they won't see that they're not being given
Speaker 1: truth seeking tools or maybe a misunderstanding.
Speaker 3: I'm not saying just simply push back and say they're.
Speaker 1: Lying to no, no, no, no, no, but like, but
Speaker 1: trying to convince them that they are they that the
Speaker 1: systems in which they work are ones that are patently
Speaker 1: not encouraging proper truth seeking, I think would bounce off
Speaker 1: most like true believers, because they are convinced they have
Speaker 1: the truth. It has been revealed to them by the Lord.
Speaker 1: It is written on their hearts. How do you get
Speaker 1: how do you get around that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I have had success with this argument. But
Speaker 3: I'm trying to actually bypass that. Their their arguments are
Speaker 3: to push back the reflexes, to push back on the fact.
Speaker 3: Like if I come to them and I'd say, I
Speaker 3: have this larger argument again, problem of evil. Oh but
Speaker 3: if you free will because you all this, and if
Speaker 3: you instead of saying pointing out the problems with their
Speaker 3: counter argument, you say why you know you approach the
Speaker 3: mechanisms behind their faith and say, now, honestly ask you yourself,
Speaker 3: why is this way? I have had some success.
Speaker 2: With that, So may I ask, oh, sorry, go ahead, what.
Speaker 3: Was your point?
Speaker 2: What is the response? How do people tend to when
Speaker 2: you say have had success with this? What's kind of
Speaker 2: their their response? How do you know you've had success
Speaker 2: with it? I guess I'm not questioning you. I'm just
Speaker 2: wondering what does that look like?
Speaker 3: The reaction is sometimes they shut down like you, like
Speaker 3: you said, and other times it just throws them for
Speaker 3: a loop. And I've had people come back to me
Speaker 3: later and say I've had to think about that one.
Speaker 2: You know, what I mean response, I have to think
Speaker 2: about it like it Yeah, And my.
Speaker 3: Point is sort of to get around that that training
Speaker 3: that they've had to say, oh, this is the truth
Speaker 3: to send your faith. I've had this apologetics training. Well
Speaker 3: you look the apologetics training, you know. Another example would
Speaker 3: be to point out the apologists institutions are all they
Speaker 3: have these arguments that've been debunked for years and they're
Speaker 3: still presenting them. Okay, I'll push back on that, but
Speaker 3: then you say why is there Yeah.
Speaker 2: Kind of taking the making the picture bigger. I feel
Speaker 2: like I think about how when I was younger and
Speaker 2: in the church, it was a Baptist church that I
Speaker 2: frequented at the time, you were pretty much trained to
Speaker 2: give all sorts of arguments, and you were given all
Speaker 2: the books of Case Very Creator and Case for Christ.
Speaker 2: And you know, I actually read them, and it's a
Speaker 2: little embarrassing to say that when I look back at them,
Speaker 2: things that I thought were totally reasonable and logical, I
Speaker 2: would look at now and be like, how did I
Speaker 2: think this? But to move on from head to head argument,
Speaker 2: it sounds like you're saying to say, like, well, why
Speaker 2: are these books all packaged? And why is this sort
Speaker 2: of shoved into you in youth group, like that's kind
Speaker 2: of an odd thing, don't you think that that's sort
Speaker 2: of a weird thing to do or making looking at
Speaker 2: the context of the arguments that we're making, maybe looking
Speaker 2: at the context of how this church is operating in
Speaker 2: the world and questioning that maybe instead of getting into
Speaker 2: like a head to head argument. It also feels a
Speaker 2: little bit like this is going to be maybe a
Speaker 2: little squishy sounding. But I think oftentimes the public faith
Speaker 2: of atheism is just debates. It's debates all the time.
Speaker 2: It's facts on facts, and atheists just like to debate facts,
Speaker 2: and they're easily marginalized or characterized as here's this, you know,
Speaker 2: atheist who just wants so bad to reject God that
Speaker 2: they're just gonna pick on all these little things, which
Speaker 2: doesn't feel right. As an atheist, I don't feel that's true,
Speaker 2: But that's how it was characterized to me when I
Speaker 2: was part of the church, and I bought into that,
Speaker 2: and that was what I saw of atheism. So to
Speaker 2: have someone questioning more about I would say, almost the
Speaker 2: softer bits of religion, the things that aren't here, go
Speaker 2: fight for your faith. But that are like, you know,
Speaker 2: this is kind of an odd thing to do, Like,
Speaker 2: why do you think they're doing this? I think that
Speaker 2: that's I think there's some legitimacy to that for sure, personally. Anyway,
Speaker 2: may I ask, I know you're in Alabama, were you
Speaker 2: always an atheist or were you a person of faith
Speaker 2: at a time?
Speaker 3: It was a bizarre trip journey. I was born in
Speaker 3: East Tennessee and the Appalachian Mountains, which is thick Baptists,
Speaker 3: so I was raised in the Baptist tradition. Had had
Speaker 3: some questions was atheists when I was a teenager, actually
Speaker 3: reconverted I guess you would call it one. In my
Speaker 3: twenties was went to Methodists, then converted to Catholicism. And
Speaker 3: then one day, you know, I'd always been questioning the
Speaker 3: question type and then one day, I can tell you
Speaker 3: the exact spot I was driving, I thought, you know,
Speaker 3: you just believe because you want to believe. That's the
Speaker 3: only reason. And from that point on, I certain identifying
Speaker 3: as atheists.
Speaker 1: It takes to do that, I'm sorry. It takes a
Speaker 1: lot of introspection to do that. It takes a lot
Speaker 1: of bravery and mental honestly, honestly, thought to just realize
Speaker 1: that it was.
Speaker 3: A very, very long trip. Yeah, that's a very long journey.
Speaker 3: And today I still I still have to intellectually keep
Speaker 3: open the idea that theism could remotely there could be
Speaker 3: for some pharmacism, especially with all of the different definitions
Speaker 3: of the God. I think, I think Christianity is touch
Speaker 3: at the bottom of the list as far as the possibilities.
Speaker 3: But you know, there's all way up to the out
Speaker 3: of Spinosa, which.
Speaker 2: Is a nature.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that the laws of physics of the universe
Speaker 3: can be defined if a god. Now I kind of
Speaker 3: think that's a cop out.
Speaker 2: Uh, but I mean living in the time he was living,
Speaker 2: and I can't start of see yeah, sorry, just I'm
Speaker 2: I'm a big Spinosa fan. Actually, sofia Spina comes from Spinoza.
Speaker 2: Spina is a version of yeah Spinosa. Anyway, I kind
Speaker 2: of agree that if somebody would argue that, to me,
Speaker 2: it's a bit of a cop out. But I also
Speaker 2: look at the time he was living in and when
Speaker 2: he was characterized as an atheist, he was more maligned,
Speaker 2: he was in more danger physically, and he was already
Speaker 2: excommunicated from his community at this at this point and
Speaker 2: they were a community of Jewish folks who'd had to
Speaker 2: move to the Netherlands because they were You probably know
Speaker 2: all this, so I'm just saying this kind of for
Speaker 2: the record. But they had to move to the Netherlands
Speaker 2: because they were being persecuted in Spain. So he was
Speaker 2: already run out of places for the particular slant of
Speaker 2: religion that his community had. So I wonder a little
Speaker 2: bit if his version of God was so that he
Speaker 2: could say I'm not an atheist. So he had a
Speaker 2: version of God, and maybe that was pragmatic rather than
Speaker 2: an earnest belief. I don't know. I cannot speak for Spinoza,
Speaker 2: but I definitely I would say if somebody argued that now,
Speaker 2: I would see it as a bit of a cop out.
Speaker 2: I agree, But I wonder about the context with that one.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the reason why I called myself an
Speaker 1: agnostic for a long time, because it was safer, it
Speaker 1: was easier, it was more accepted. It's still true, like
Speaker 1: I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't know that God doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: I can I can define certain gods as illogical for existing.
Speaker 1: Any triomne like I do not believe exists because it's
Speaker 1: logically not possible to do that, like the problem of evil,
Speaker 1: problem of divine hiddenness, you know, but that's not every
Speaker 1: god or every god concept. So I and I don't
Speaker 1: like making truth claims on gods. I much prefer to say,
Speaker 1: you have a belief in this this particular definition of
Speaker 1: a god. Can you demonstrate it to me? Is it demonstrable?
Speaker 1: And certain god definitions like deism, No, it isn't demonstrable,
Speaker 1: And all I can say to that is then then
Speaker 1: it is useless to me. It is indistinguishable from a
Speaker 1: universe that does not have a god. So it's a
Speaker 1: pointless belief in my opinion. But we're geting a little
Speaker 1: bit off track. Is there anything else that's on your
Speaker 1: mind then, Chief, No, just I.
Speaker 3: Just like to encourage people to give that approach a shot.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: The big question is I mean probably the most important
Speaker 3: question in asking that is sort of ask questions that
Speaker 3: lead you to stop and think about why is this
Speaker 3: belief or why is questioning discouraged or seeing as something
Speaker 3: that needs to be fixed in the community if they're
Speaker 3: talking about truth. So I think that that's sort of
Speaker 3: sound what I'm.
Speaker 2: Going with this ahead, Well, I appreciate that a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm going to say bye to you at this moment
Speaker 2: because then we've got to read our patreons. But I
Speaker 2: really appreciate that perspective personally. I look at it and
Speaker 2: I think, like, for me in my deconversion journey, I
Speaker 2: knew so many arguments that I'd memorized, so many arguments
Speaker 2: for sieccess in your Earth even at one point, or
Speaker 2: that we're anti evolution, and having questions about the institutions
Speaker 2: that were teaching me did come before being open to
Speaker 2: the scientific aspects of things or like the demonstrated proofs
Speaker 2: of things. And I don't know if that's you know,
Speaker 2: I don't think there's one right way for someone to
Speaker 2: be deconverted. I think different things are going to speak
Speaker 2: to different people. But for me, I had to be
Speaker 2: open to the idea that the institution was wrong first,
Speaker 2: and then I started realizing that I had been I
Speaker 2: don't know if it's lied to, but certainly misled about science.
Speaker 2: I thought that Lucy was the only specimen from you know,
Speaker 2: her ere that we had of something that came before humans.
Speaker 2: I thought that a six thousand year Earth, I had
Speaker 2: to say that it was possible because I had to
Speaker 2: say that all things were possible through God, so I
Speaker 2: couldn't really say it was impossible. And I'm like, if
Speaker 2: I was able to side step that, I was able
Speaker 2: to start seeing a lot more of reality, a lot
Speaker 2: more truth. So I think I needed that kind of
Speaker 2: approach personally also because it enabled me now as an
Speaker 2: atheist to look back and be like, oh, yeah, I
Speaker 2: know what arguments you're making, and I can see where
Speaker 2: you're not being told things. I can see what you're
Speaker 2: being lied to about, and let's discuss the lies.
Speaker 1: Maybe yeah, I didn't know. I liked his final point,
Speaker 1: like like, ask them, are you allowed to question like
Speaker 1: these tenets? And if not, why not? That's an interesting,
Speaker 1: interesting line of thought.
Speaker 2: I did get the sense that this didn't fully sit
Speaker 2: right with you initially. Is that?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean, thinking back on some of the calls I've
Speaker 1: taken on the show and the conversations I've had with people,
Speaker 1: there are certain theists and certain theistic mindsets that are
Speaker 1: completely inassailable from that kind of by having questioned their epistemology,
Speaker 1: that like, why do you believe what you believe? Like
Speaker 1: any presupposition list, and it will just flat out go no,
Speaker 1: like God exists and must exist. I presuppose that God exists,
Speaker 1: therefore he does and and that's one of the reasons
Speaker 1: why that they're one of my least favorite conversations to
Speaker 1: have in terms of I get easily frustrated with it
Speaker 1: because it just feels that it feels very you're not
Speaker 1: even going to countenance like you're going to just assume
Speaker 1: you're right, you declare you're right, therefore you're right kind
Speaker 1: of thing. So I think there are certain theistic mindsets
Speaker 1: and dogmas that that technique that Bruce was espousing would
Speaker 1: just bounce straight off.
Speaker 2: I could definitely see that as well. Got to say,
Speaker 2: I think it's like any conversion, a deconversion is going
Speaker 2: to take different things and different kinds of arguments. I
Speaker 2: think that's some of the strength of this show actually,
Speaker 2: is that there's people who make arguments that are so
Speaker 2: different from anyone I would ever make that it speaks
Speaker 2: to a lot of different kinds of people. I guess, yeah,
Speaker 2: real quick, super chat before we go to Patreon's, we
Speaker 2: have a super chat from Sydney Plaza, which sounds like
Speaker 2: a place. I love it. Five euros who also fancy youroes.
Speaker 2: I guess I'm not a rocket scientist or a doctor,
Speaker 2: but as you can attest, I'm a pretty good healer
Speaker 2: smiley face.
Speaker 1: Because Cindy is our healer in our in our D
Speaker 1: and D game has literally saved my bacon on a
Speaker 1: couple of a couple of occasions. Because I'm the main DPS.
Speaker 1: I'm a monk. So I'm in there mixing it up
Speaker 1: and she's back there going heal and heal again. Will
Speaker 1: you stop getting he again? I've already died once I
Speaker 1: got better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great. I was hoping. I was reading it
Speaker 2: being like, I'm guessing Jamie will know what this means,
Speaker 2: because I'm like I don't. I don't know.
Speaker 1: But that's great D and D cruise in the audience.
Speaker 1: So yeah, prop swallow, I love it.
Speaker 2: If you're a D and D person and have not
Speaker 2: yet done Stormlight Archive, which is coming out with the
Speaker 2: tabletop RPG next year, I would I would personally recommend
Speaker 2: that I'm obsessed. It's another epic fantasy story and then anyway,
Speaker 2: I love it. So I just am going to say
Speaker 2: drop this with Dandie folks, new tabletop board game, dropping
Speaker 2: that I am insanely excited about as a similar mechanism anyway.
Speaker 2: Patreons Top five patreons here we have number one Oops
Speaker 2: All Singularity, two Dingleberry Jackson, three Coleevi Helvetti, which I
Speaker 2: can only say if I try not to think about it,
Speaker 2: Number four left in the leaves, Number five Neil the
Speaker 2: six oh four Atheist, and then an honorable mention to
Speaker 2: Carol Lynn, the only reasonable name on this list. Thank
Speaker 2: you for everyone who gives to us on Patreon. If
Speaker 2: you want to have your name right on the air,
Speaker 2: then please consider supporting us at tiny dot cc slash patreon.
Speaker 2: Th that's tiny dot cc slash patreon th for talk
Speaker 2: even Yeah. On that note, we have started recording the
Speaker 2: Talk Heathen discord after show for all levels of paid patrons,
Speaker 2: So if you are you know, even a low levels here,
Speaker 2: you get this too. If you want more content and
Speaker 2: a more informal look at the host, then join our
Speaker 2: Patreon where yeah, you get to hear us chat about
Speaker 2: all sorts of things like I feel like it is
Speaker 2: kind of interesting how far afield it gets. It's not
Speaker 2: necessarily atheism.
Speaker 1: And while and while it's not, it's corrolatory rather than causative.
Speaker 1: There is a big overlap in atheist and nerd. We're
Speaker 1: all different stripes and nerds in the in the discord. So,
Speaker 1: and we're going to be having an after show after
Speaker 1: this one. I'll be there, I believe are our producer
Speaker 1: and backup host Richard will be there as well, and
Speaker 1: we will be talking all kinds of complete bollocks. It'd
Speaker 1: be great.
Speaker 2: Again. Even the swear words fancy from British people. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So there's also one more super chat that just came in.
Speaker 2: It's I think I'm going to say this, David Haxell hasor. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's some fours. So David Hacksor who's been a member
Speaker 2: for two months, who gives five Canadian dollars, even though
Speaker 2: my brain wants to say it's five Californian dollars, but
Speaker 2: that's not the thing. When well, the Olympics except D
Speaker 2: and D as an official event, maybe I'd watch them.
Speaker 2: I love the idea of this. I am curious as
Speaker 2: to the logistics.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the only competitive thing I've seen in D and
Speaker 1: D is like who can get the GM to break first?
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that's fair. That is total love and.
Speaker 1: That's a seven point six from the British Churche. It
Speaker 1: seems that the DM has broken down in tears as
Speaker 1: they have wandered off the meticulously made story that you
Speaker 1: made for them and have started doing fart jokes.
Speaker 2: Hey, any good DM is going to know that there's
Speaker 2: probably going to be some far jokes at some point
Speaker 2: like this. You know. Maybe maybe that's just the groups
Speaker 2: I play with, but yeah, I love it. I feel
Speaker 2: like it would be a really good cultural study, Like
Speaker 2: how would different you know, nations play with. They have
Speaker 2: different strategies, different little cultures within that they tend toward.
Speaker 1: And interestingly enough, because I mean this is not a
Speaker 1: D and D podcast by any times, we are still
Speaker 1: talking about religion. But religion is basically science in these stories,
Speaker 1: in these fantasies, because gods are real, you can talk
Speaker 1: to them and you can reliably invoke their power. It's
Speaker 1: not faith like faith is what's like you're a cleric,
Speaker 1: you're a priest, whatever, and you believe in a god
Speaker 1: and you can have divine inspiration. But it works in
Speaker 1: the same way as like just putting up a lightning
Speaker 1: rod or turning on a car engine. You say these
Speaker 1: words and then magic occurs and it's like and it
Speaker 1: does it every single time, demonstrably, there's no mystery to it.
Speaker 1: It's fascinating that religion in the fancy world is nothing
Speaker 1: like religion in the real world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my gosh. There's so many things from a
Speaker 2: Sermlie archive I could talk about here, but I won't
Speaker 2: because yeah, I guess I just jaming in particularly, I
Speaker 2: think you should read it so I can talk to
Speaker 2: you about it, because I need it so much. One
Speaker 2: more D and D comment and then we will take
Speaker 2: another call because we have another super chat and it's
Speaker 2: specifically in regards to D and d's from Miranda Rensburger,
Speaker 2: who's been a member for six months. We love Breanda Rensberger,
Speaker 2: who sent five dollars. So Jamie is the D and
Speaker 2: D version of what we in the medical world call
Speaker 2: a frequent flyer, one who keeps showing up in the
Speaker 2: er over and over for random shit.
Speaker 1: Oh it's yeah, well, it's it's the it's the life
Speaker 1: of the it's the life of the frontline fighter. You're
Speaker 1: going to get mauled quite often. And yes, it's so
Speaker 1: nice to have our cy India there in the back
Speaker 1: making sure I don't shuffle off the mortal coil again.
Speaker 2: I love that I am going to recap the D
Speaker 2: and D for for a moment so we can go
Speaker 2: on to a caller. But I kind of love that
Speaker 2: this has become a theme of today. There's demons and
Speaker 2: D and D. That's what we have. That's what today's
Speaker 2: show has kind of been about. All right, So we
Speaker 2: have a caller who is a theist whose name is Dave.
Speaker 2: He him from India, and Dave is going to talk
Speaker 2: to us about how medical metaphysical reality points toward a God.
Speaker 2: All right, Dave, tell us about your thoughts on metaphysical
Speaker 2: reality and God. Hey, my kid, hi, I think I
Speaker 2: could hear my own voice in the background. So if
Speaker 2: you have anything like the show playing in the background,
Speaker 2: if you could mute it, that would be awesome. But
Speaker 2: I don't have anything.
Speaker 5: I have nothing in the background, So.
Speaker 2: Go ahead and tell us, tell us what's going on.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I just wanted to say that there are certain
Speaker 5: books for actual projections after without travels, and there are
Speaker 5: a lot of people who who claim to have that
Speaker 5: achieve that kind of experience. But I just wanted to
Speaker 5: say that that experience might point towards the God.
Speaker 1: Well, the word claim is big, bold, fiery letters in
Speaker 1: that sentence. They claim to have done it. Can they
Speaker 1: actually demonstrate it under controlled conditions?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Responsible, the experience can be I'm sorry, I just
Speaker 2: didn't know. If you're you keep going.
Speaker 5: So you can quantify the experience. You can measure the
Speaker 5: blood pressure level, you can make it the heartbeat, you
Speaker 5: can make it different kinds of things to quantify the experience.
Speaker 5: And once everyone is in the same state, they will
Speaker 5: have the same experience, and then we can get the
Speaker 5: message to the same way.
Speaker 1: So but I think, yeah, so, I mean, yes, we
Speaker 1: can see that they're having an experience. I mean I
Speaker 1: have an experience when I try and walk upstairs too quick.
Speaker 1: But it's it's the astral projection part that I'm talking about,
Speaker 1: Like we can Yes, you can hook them up to
Speaker 1: an EEG and see the brainwave patterns things. But it's
Speaker 1: the same in secular meditation. You can achieve certain brain
Speaker 1: states and body states through breathing control and mindfulness. There's
Speaker 1: nothing mystic or supernatural about it. You've got to prove
Speaker 1: the supernatural. You to demonstrate the supernatural aspect. Can you
Speaker 1: do that? Yeah?
Speaker 5: So, I would say too. Part to it. The first
Speaker 5: part is that when we go to like this flat
Speaker 5: and you you go to some kind of bride, the
Speaker 5: expem to get when you're coming down or going up
Speaker 5: all of a sudden, the feeling that they get that
Speaker 5: is very similar to the experience that I'm talking about.
Speaker 5: So in that sense, it's fortifiable.
Speaker 2: There are still other ways to achieve it. I understand
Speaker 2: what you're saying. I think there's just so many other
Speaker 2: ways to achieve that that aren't actual astral projection. Our
Speaker 2: brains can do a whole lot, Like what do we
Speaker 2: If we hear something or someone talk about something, we
Speaker 2: can become emotional, right, and it will actually change our
Speaker 2: physical state just from hearing somebody talk about something passionately.
Speaker 2: If you're sitting and listening to music and that music
Speaker 2: is emotional, it might even give you goosebumps if somebody
Speaker 2: hits a particular note and it's changing your physical state,
Speaker 2: and that can be in a really dramatic way. So
Speaker 2: I look at it and I'm like, all right, people
Speaker 2: are claiming they astral projected. We have a lot of
Speaker 2: evidence that folks can have experiences that seem like or
Speaker 2: feel like they're actual projecting when they aren't doing anything
Speaker 2: that is inexplicable, they are putting themselves in a maybe
Speaker 2: trans like state on purpose or through meditation in some way.
Speaker 2: Why would it be more likely that that would be
Speaker 2: proof of a god or even a metaphysical realm, then
Speaker 2: that they're doing these things that we know are physically possible.
Speaker 5: Okay, we gotta we gotta hold on, hold on, that's
Speaker 5: too much in all one time. I'm not a debate
Speaker 5: or something like that. So yeah, I just want to say.
Speaker 5: The first thing, which uh, which I think, uh, they said,
Speaker 5: is that the supernatural part, I agree, there is nothing
Speaker 5: supernatural to it. And the second part with you are
Speaker 5: thinking is that they can feed the Google bump with
Speaker 5: the new big and then you can people claim that
Speaker 5: they have a supernatural but meditative state. So I do
Speaker 5: agree to and that's where I'm stuck up to. That
Speaker 5: is exactly what.
Speaker 1: I realized to.
Speaker 5: But the thing is, there are so many people in
Speaker 5: my country who claim to have gone all the day,
Speaker 5: so they know that the path is much longer than
Speaker 5: what I have already covered. So what it will be
Speaker 5: talking about is like base things, and there are much
Speaker 5: advanced things which can be a tie if you keep
Speaker 5: that the thing for the long wither with two diligions
Speaker 5: and the tenant information.
Speaker 2: I mean, a lot of people in my country claim
Speaker 2: that they speak in tongues and really honestly believe it
Speaker 2: and have entire complex, you know, feelings about things that
Speaker 2: they've encountered or communicated when they do. So, we're sort
Speaker 2: of just saying a lot of people said so, so
Speaker 2: maybe it's true, And that doesn't seem like a very
Speaker 2: strong argument to me.
Speaker 1: It is in fact a fallacy the appeal to appeal
Speaker 1: to you majority, or whatever the name of it is.
Speaker 1: But here let's take a difference act in tybe. Let's say,
Speaker 1: for the psych of argument, that you can prove move
Speaker 1: that astral projection actually is a real phenomena, that a
Speaker 1: person can leave their physical body and have experiences outside
Speaker 1: it in some kind of incorporeal form, be it distance
Speaker 1: viewing or hearing conversations far away, or even communicating with
Speaker 1: other people telepathically. I still don't see how that proves
Speaker 1: anything other than that astral projection is a phenomena in
Speaker 1: the world and therefore likely has a natural explanation and
Speaker 1: doesn't really get you any further to God, because there's
Speaker 1: plenty of things that have been ascribed to God that
Speaker 1: we have found to be natural, Like back in the day,
Speaker 1: lightning came from the gods. But I can set up
Speaker 1: a Vandergraft generator and make lightning in my own home
Speaker 1: if I was bonkers enough. So what do you say
Speaker 1: to that? How does astral projection, even if it was real,
Speaker 1: prove a God.
Speaker 5: So the degrees of freedom are just increasing. Day by day,
Speaker 5: we are getting more and more degrees of freedom. You
Speaker 5: are much older, older than me, You're much wiser than me.
Speaker 5: You have lived in a much advanced country than me,
Speaker 5: you have much better information than me. So that's what
Speaker 5: I'm saying, that the degrees of freedom are just increasing.
Speaker 5: So if they keep increasing in the same way, ultimately
Speaker 5: we'll read the point, well, everything will the domatic.
Speaker 2: So it seems like the argument here is that because
Speaker 2: culture changes and we learn new things, maybe about science
Speaker 2: or technology or the world around us scientifically, that maybe
Speaker 2: that happens spiritually as well. Is that kind of what
Speaker 2: we're going with?
Speaker 5: I was, yeah, the culture will change, Yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 5: I would say that.
Speaker 2: I don't know that that's a parallel that I can
Speaker 2: quite get on board with here because we can also
Speaker 2: say that. I don't know, I'm trying to think of
Speaker 2: a of a good analogy because that was a little
Speaker 2: little out of left field feeling.
Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, you're still going for gold in
Speaker 1: those non secutary Olympics there, Dave. I mean, you just
Speaker 1: speed off into talking about we becoming more free. I
Speaker 1: don't exactly know what you meant by that, even after
Speaker 1: you tried to explain it. My question actually was if
Speaker 1: astral projection is real, how does it prove a god?
Speaker 1: And you said we are becoming more free? That makes
Speaker 1: zero sense. So do you actually have any kind of
Speaker 1: explanation as to how, even if it was real, astral
Speaker 1: projection would indicate a god.
Speaker 5: So the thing is, look at the history that we
Speaker 5: have had at ads, with blood being shed, all of thought,
Speaker 5: and even today if you go to the forest the Jungles,
Speaker 5: you will see exactly that kind of animosity.
Speaker 1: And that kind of stop stop stop stop stop stop stop.
Speaker 1: You've just completely failed to answer my question twice, and
Speaker 1: you've gone on an on secutur twice. I'm going to
Speaker 1: do it one more time and then I'm going to
Speaker 1: give up, and then Sofia, you can do whatever you like.
Speaker 1: If astral projection was real, tell me how how that
Speaker 1: would indicate that God is real as you claim.
Speaker 5: Because if you go back to a certain a few years,
Speaker 5: they were completely denying these experiences blatantly.
Speaker 1: And now I'm already giving you that astral projection is real.
Speaker 1: Dave really starting to get me on my edge now,
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna calm down. Yeah, Sophie, So.
Speaker 2: Hey, Dave, I'm dropping you, but I'm gonna kind of
Speaker 2: finish this real quick address. I think I see a
Speaker 2: bit of what you're trying to go toward, which is
Speaker 2: that maybe we can sort of evolve as spiritual beings.
Speaker 2: So astral projection would eventually lead to a God. That
Speaker 2: sounds like a fantasy story to me. I also want
Speaker 2: to point out that when we talk about culture advancing
Speaker 2: or things like that, we're starting to hedge. We're like
Speaker 2: a sneeze away from eugenics basically, where we're almost saying
Speaker 2: things like, well, this, this culture is superior or better,
Speaker 2: and they're times in history we knew less about science
Speaker 2: that we knew you know less about how to you know,
Speaker 2: make sure people don't die of bacterial infection, and those
Speaker 2: those are good things. But I think to say that
Speaker 2: a culture is inherently better or more advanced in some
Speaker 2: sort of human way, are we more compassionate or more empathetic?
Speaker 2: I would actually argue that's possibly the opposite. So I
Speaker 2: think I am going to challenge that idea of cultures
Speaker 2: being able to be put on some ranking scale in
Speaker 2: the same way that scientific discoveries can be built upon.
Speaker 2: It doesn't really work that way. Culture changes but not
Speaker 2: always for the better. And that's kind of a strange
Speaker 2: assumption to be making, I think, or one that can
Speaker 2: be lead very quickly into saying that a people is
Speaker 2: superior to another people, and I don't think that's true,
Speaker 2: and I want to kind of reject that pretty outright. Yeah, Jamie,
Speaker 2: how you doing?
Speaker 1: Apologies for losing my shit. They're very unbecoming. But it's
Speaker 1: incredibly frustrating where I'm like, I'm going to grant you
Speaker 1: the thing. I'm going to grant give you all the toys,
Speaker 1: astral projections. Real, fine, fuck it great? How does that
Speaker 1: lead us to God? And three times he just completely
Speaker 1: doesn't just goes off on a tangent, and he's done
Speaker 1: it in previous calls. He's called in before, and it's
Speaker 1: always the same. You're asking a direct question and he
Speaker 1: just goes off on some baffling tangent and I'm like,
Speaker 1: can you just answer my damn question? So frustrating me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I definitely definitely get that, and like,
Speaker 2: I feel like you apologize for having emotions too too much,
Speaker 2: because I'm like, eh, you know, it's an emotional, it's
Speaker 2: an interesting thing.
Speaker 1: It's supposed to be the chill one. I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm derelict in duty.
Speaker 2: Because I'm usually very British, very chill for being British.
Speaker 2: I do the same thing to my Australian husband for
Speaker 2: being Australian, which I would argue there's a continue of
Speaker 2: British to American and Australians are closer to the British then.
Speaker 2: But anyway, I encourage people to comment about that because
Speaker 2: I feel like sometimes I say that people find it
Speaker 2: very upsetting chicile Australians for some reason. But anyway, we
Speaker 2: have one more super chat and then we're actually gonna
Speaker 2: just go ahead and wrap up for today. So we
Speaker 2: have a super chat again from David hex Or I
Speaker 2: say that right, who's been a member for two months
Speaker 2: who sent in five Canadian dollars saying, what's the difference
Speaker 2: between astral projection and zoom?
Speaker 1: I know, we are instantly communicating using nothing but the
Speaker 1: movement of electrons over massive distances. Right now, we are
Speaker 1: doing the magic as we speak.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like it's interesting when I think about
Speaker 2: the fact that the argument we make against I was
Speaker 2: a Harry Potter kid, right, I grew up in that era.
Speaker 2: I disagree vehemently with many of the creator's views. However,
Speaker 2: when I think about Hogwarts and so much that you
Speaker 2: were able to do in the magical world, we can
Speaker 2: just do that now. It's not really that special. To
Speaker 2: do it with magic is to do it with science.
Speaker 2: And I feel like religion is kind of going the
Speaker 2: same way. A lot of the things people talk about.
Speaker 2: Even when there's like an amazing miracle healing, it's like, well,
Speaker 2: the miracle of science has healed way more people than that,
Speaker 2: and it took you know, it's more consistent. It's not
Speaker 2: just hoping that this will work out. So we were
Speaker 2: replacing the need for religion, I would argue, yes.
Speaker 1: Let us assure you I am I am being projected
Speaker 1: into your countenances. Audience I'm not physically inside your television
Speaker 1: or room or phone.
Speaker 2: And I maybe I'm just being projected right into your hearts.
Speaker 2: So let's the prompt for this week again is complete
Speaker 2: the sentence it was a mistake when God blank. That's
Speaker 2: our prompt for this week. Reply in the comments and
Speaker 2: tune in at the beginning of next week's episode to
Speaker 2: hear the top three answers. And we want to thank
Speaker 2: Richard for helping out today. It's you gonna pop up,
Speaker 2: Richard and tell us your feelings. Okay, Jilliver or Gilliver?
Speaker 2: What kind of g It's a soft soft ge Okay,
Speaker 2: like Guppie.
Speaker 6: Liver, like like anything that's the soft gee, like.
Speaker 1: Giff not gift.
Speaker 2: I hope we get comments about that gift comment. You
Speaker 2: gotta say. Okay, thank you.
Speaker 6: You are mother than welcome. Great show, guys. We've had
Speaker 6: some good calls D as everyone knows from the other
Speaker 6: week when she made me cry. I love D.
Speaker 1: You know, a great call.
Speaker 6: I've you know, seen things in the dark. I used
Speaker 6: to be the kind of residents skeptic on the ghost
Speaker 6: hunting team, so I've been in this situation where you know,
Speaker 6: things that are strange happen in that situation, But we
Speaker 6: must understand the context of that and the way the
Speaker 6: brain works. Sophia will know is that there are two
Speaker 6: parts to how we assess information. We have memory, those
Speaker 6: things that have built up, those things that we assess
Speaker 6: the world over time that we've learnt, and then we
Speaker 6: have the information which comes straight into our head via
Speaker 6: our sense organs. Now, when we are doing things like
Speaker 6: ghost hunts, or we're asleep at night, or we're in
Speaker 6: strange locations, what happens when we wake up and something
Speaker 6: kind of unusual happens is that those we're trying to
Speaker 6: cross reference those things all the time. We're trying to
Speaker 6: cross reference those things we know from experience and those
Speaker 6: things which are coming into our sense organs. So what
Speaker 6: happens in a lot of cases, and we see this
Speaker 6: a lot in things like people go ghost hunting, people
Speaker 6: who are in strange locations, is our brain makes up
Speaker 6: a narrative based on what's happening. So we can if
Speaker 6: we are predisposed to believing in ghosts, if we are
Speaker 6: predisposed to believing in supernatural or non normative events, then
Speaker 6: our brain is going to put that information that's coming
Speaker 6: to that little bit of information that's coming in with
Speaker 6: that predisposition and create a narrative for it. And that
Speaker 6: is why we have these experiences of ghosts. Bruce, It's
Speaker 6: a lot more complex than that. That's a very simplified version, Bruce.
Speaker 6: I absolutely agree with him, a great call. You know, people,
Speaker 6: one of my pet hates is atheists who just dive
Speaker 6: into theists. I released a bunch of videos on my
Speaker 6: own channel recently and I only put the title in
Speaker 6: which and it was quite misleading, and it did look
Speaker 6: like if you didn't know, I might have been a theist,
Speaker 6: if you didn't see any of the if you didn't
Speaker 6: really the description or watch the sat or watch the video,
Speaker 6: it may have appeared like I was a theist. And
Speaker 6: so many people commented saying, you are wrong, take your
Speaker 6: God belief and stick it over your arse, and it
Speaker 6: was clear they'd not taken any context from it. It
Speaker 6: was clearly not watched the video, they not read the description.
Speaker 6: You know, atheists do better because you do come across
Speaker 6: as wanker evangelicals when you do that. And I'm not
Speaker 6: gonna lie. David Astro travel Projection. I don't you know,
Speaker 6: all I can say on this is I had lots
Speaker 6: of dreams when I was in my early teens about
Speaker 6: a girl who lived across the road, and in these dreams,
Speaker 6: I astro projected out of my body and visited her.
Speaker 6: Although these dreams were tremendous fun for a young teenage boy,
Speaker 6: they weren't real. You know, we have to demonstrate that
Speaker 6: these things are real. I've done, great show, guys. I'm
Speaker 6: going thank you very much for the show.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I love all of the equips
Speaker 2: you give. And yeah, I immediately I'm like, let's talk
Speaker 2: about the nature of memory. But I can say that
Speaker 2: for another show. Honestly, this was great. I had a
Speaker 2: lovely time here with you, Jamie. I'm gonna remember love
Speaker 2: rings this time it's in giant font. It's also like highlighted.
Speaker 2: So yes, love rings, because always forget them. But we
Speaker 2: do really love the callers. We really love folks who
Speaker 2: come in and uh, yeah, it's it's vulnerable to try
Speaker 2: to talk on the air. It's vulnerable to talk with
Speaker 2: people you have never met before you might disagree with
Speaker 2: and we appreciate that people are willing to do that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So you can come see us at tiny dot cec
Speaker 2: slash a C A discord, which is where we do
Speaker 2: the after show. That's tiny dot CC slash a C
Speaker 2: A discord. If you don't believe this is your community,
Speaker 2: or sorry, yes, if you don't believe, I see I'm
Speaker 2: so bad I read. Yes, it's remarkable. I was an
Speaker 2: English teacher at one point. Can you believe it? I
Speaker 2: don't even know what a soft she is. If you
Speaker 2: don't believe, this is your community, and we appreciate you
Speaker 2: being here. If you do believe, we don't hate you,
Speaker 2: just not convinced.
Speaker 6: We want the truth. So watch Truth Wanted live Friday
Speaker 6: at seven pm Central. Visit tiny dot cc slash y
Speaker 6: t tw and call into the show at five one
Speaker 6: two nine four two, or connect to the show online
Speaker 6: at tiny dot cc slash call tw