WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:33.640 Welcome to mid Rats with sal from Commander Salamander, an 2 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:37.000 Eagle one from Eagle Speak at Seer Shore your home 3 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:39.880 for a discussion of national security issues and all things 4 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:45.280 maritime and good to everybody. Welcome board for another edition 5 00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:48.200 of mid Rats, and for those that are with us 6 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:51.600 live if you are so inclined, as always, we have 7 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:55.759 the live stream chat up and running. Paul's already there 8 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:58.479 ready to welcome you. And if you have some observations 9 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:00.560 you wanted to share during the course of the show, 10 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:02.439 are even a question you would like for us to 11 00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:05.599 direct to our guests, that is the perfect place to 12 00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:07.760 do it because we'll monitor it during the course of 13 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:14.079 the show. And if you don't already, go over to iTunes, Spotify, spreaker, 14 00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:16.560 wherever you aggregate all your podcasts. And if you don't 15 00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:19.519 subscribe to mid Rats, go ahead and subscribe to us 16 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:21.519 that way. If you can't join us live, we'll be 17 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:23.280 waiting for you. When you do have time for us 18 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:26.560 and today's show, let's just go ahead and dive into it. 19 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:28.799 As things just starting to get chilly, there's not a 20 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:32.840 better topic out there then, I think the ice around us, 21 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:37.640 and when you look at the US territory. One of 22 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:44.319 the most militarily and energy strategic spaces we have is 23 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:47.719 up in Alaska. We are in our tech nation, and 24 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:53.079 we have extensive economic interests with our allies as well, Canada, Denmark, 25 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:56.400 Norway up in the Arctic region. But when you look 26 00:01:56.519 --> 00:02:00.760 at in twenty twenty four, what ship that we have 27 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:05.200 icebreakers and not just up there, we have Antarctica requirements 28 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:09.759 as well. It's old, it's broken, and decisions were made 29 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:11.599 years ago that we needed to get back into the 30 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:12.759 icebreaker game. 31 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:16.280 I mean, and so we got started, but we're. 32 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:18.599 Still not there. And a lot of the reasons why 33 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:21.039 we're not there will sound familiar to those that have 34 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:26.080 looked at other US industrial based ship building issues. And 35 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:28.840 we're bringing on today, I think, just just a great 36 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:32.319 guest to talk about this topic and plus one of 37 00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:35.199 our new allies area as well, and that's Peter Ribsky. 38 00:02:35.479 --> 00:02:39.039 Pete is a retired nuclear trained service warfare officer whose 39 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:42.319 last job on ACTI duty was the US Naval attache 40 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:45.560 to Finland, and he loved Finland so much he decided 41 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:49.080 that he was going to stay right there and say 42 00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:50.960 hi to the Russians from a little over one hundred 43 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:52.680 miles away, Pete, Welcome. 44 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:53.000 To mid Rights. 45 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:56.240 Thanks so Mark, happy to be here. It should be 46 00:02:56.319 --> 00:02:57.840 a pretty good conversation today. 47 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:01.199 I think it's great to have a full hour because 48 00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:04.240 you can fill up a lot of time on icebreakers 49 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:09.240 and it seems like kind of a bespoke, unique topic. 50 00:03:09.319 --> 00:03:11.159 But I think, as the listeners will see over the 51 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:14.599 next hour, it touches every bit of your day to 52 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:16.520 day life. It's one of those things that goes on 53 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:19.599 in shadows that you really don't appreciate it and its 54 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:22.719 capabilities and the risks associated with it until you start 55 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:27.000 digging into it. But just as a backgrounder, I'm curious 56 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:32.159 what takes a nice American nuclear trained swow and decides, 57 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:35.280 you know what, I want to retire and plant my flag. 58 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:37.400 Way up north in Finland. Talk a little bit about 59 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:39.879 how you decided to stay. 60 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:42.680 Put and how are you transitioning to a language nobody 61 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:43.560 can really understand. 62 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:47.479 That's a pretty good question, and I have kind of 63 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:51.400 This story starts with the typical Navy situation for those 64 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:53.879 of us who've been around for a bit, this happens 65 00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:57.319 in everyone's career. So I was coming off with c duty. 66 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:00.680 I was the auxiliaries officer around the George W. Bush, 67 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:02.680 and I had had a short job lined up. I 68 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:05.199 was going out to Damn Neck, Virginia to teach leadership 69 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:07.159 to a bunch of reservists for a couple of years. 70 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:09.400 And it was Thanksgiving a week and I was just 71 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:13.000 PCSD and my phone rang one of those Sunday phone 72 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:15.159 calls that said, we need to talk about where you 73 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:18.560 think you're going next, Like, well, I've already left. Well, 74 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:21.160 what had happened is over on the Theodore Roosevelt, which 75 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:24.279 was in refueling overall at the time. Their assistant reactor 76 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:27.560 officer had felt some severe back problems. To make a 77 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:30.319 long story short, my short tour became three years on 78 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:34.319 the Theodore Roosevelt, from taking out of overhaul to a deployment. 79 00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:37.319 The fortunate thing was the same. I had the same 80 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:41.040 detailer when that happened as when I left Theodore Roosevelt 81 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:43.399 three years later. So part of the deal, he looked 82 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:45.480 at me and said, well, where do you want to go. 83 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:48.439 I'll help you get there. And I've always wanted the 84 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:51.600 Navy to teach me a foreign language, so I volunteered 85 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:54.600 for the at HAS Shape program. I got released, went 86 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:56.959 to interview and compete, and there were two spots open 87 00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:59.079 at the time, at least two spots where the family 88 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:01.600 didn't have to take malariy pills. One was Athens, Greece, 89 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:04.199 and one was Helsinki, Finland. At the time, Athens was 90 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:06.879 pretty much on fire. People were bernie tires in the streets. 91 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:09.639 You couldn't get cash out of the ATM. So the 92 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:11.920 wife and I talked about it and decided we'd try 93 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:13.959 out the Nordics for a bit. I'd already been in 94 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:16.439 the area with a short tour that I did in 95 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:19.439 London when I was a young lieutenant at the former 96 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:23.279 Naval Forces Year of Headquarters, the Year of Language, six 97 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:25.360 months of at that say school, and packed the bags 98 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:29.199 for Finland. I was in the atche job for about 99 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:31.240 three and a half years. It was three years and 100 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:33.920 I extended because of COVID they couldn't move folks back 101 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:36.040 and forth so easily, so it took an extra year, 102 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:39.079 and then retired in twenty twenty one. In the interim, 103 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:42.120 my wife picked up employment here in Helsinki. She works 104 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:45.000 for the European Center of Excellence for Countering Hybrid Threats, 105 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:47.600 where they do a lot of counter Russian disinformation in 106 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:50.399 the Balkans and in the Eastern Europe. And she's the 107 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:53.240 US rep there working right now as a DoD contractor. 108 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:54.639 So she has a great job. 109 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:55.279 She likes it. 110 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:57.680 The kids are well planted in their schools, so when 111 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:00.639 retirement came along, it just was natural just stick around. 112 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:03.120 So it's been now three years since retirement. Then we 113 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:05.639 just bought a house here last year. So everyone asked 114 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:07.439 when we're coming back to the US, and the answer is, 115 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:08.319 I just don't know. 116 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:12.720 Well, that's a good answer. Let's talk a little bit 117 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.560 about about your interest in icebreakers and how you developed 118 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:19.800 that interest. I know from your substack location, which the 119 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:22.399 Lake will put up in the chat room. But what 120 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:24.279 got yours in icebreakers? 121 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:27.600 Well, icebreakers were in the news as I came over 122 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:31.600 here in mid twenty seventeen. The Coastguard was there. It 123 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:34.879 kept talking about funding an icebreaker, funding an icebreaker. Finland 124 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.120 is known for its sort of icebreaker. The infrastructure for 125 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:42.000 the designers, the shipyards, the equipment manufacturers, they are all 126 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:44.959 located here. So I had a passing. Well, I had 127 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:48.600 an idea when I got here that icebreakers would play 128 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:51.240 a large role. But the first visit I actually did. 129 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:53.240 I got here in June of twenty seventeen. The first 130 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:55.920 visit we had was the comment to the Coastguard who 131 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:58.639 came here in November of twenty seventeen. Right around the 132 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:00.800 same time the Second of Defense made a visit. So 133 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:03.879 as a young at Shay, I handled the Coast Guard 134 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:06.480 visit on my own, which is fine and one of 135 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:08.680 the things that the Finns did, and as they've been 136 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:11.199 doing for years, is well to back up a second 137 00:07:11.639 --> 00:07:14.279 cooperation between Finland and the US and ice breakers goes 138 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:16.279 all the way back. A friend of mine here has 139 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:18.920 been researching it and found stuff from the Ford administration 140 00:07:19.079 --> 00:07:21.560 which talks about it. But he we some of the 141 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:24.439 other ice breakers in our inventory are based on Finish design. 142 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:27.040 There's intellectual property changes and all this sort of things. 143 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:30.079 So with Coastguard icebreakers in the news and the command 144 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:32.279 of the Coast Guard here, the first thing we did 145 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:35.240 was tour basically one of Finland's ice breakers who went 146 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:37.480 to the company that operates their ice breakers, toured the 147 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:40.279 polarists toward another one of the ice breakers went to 148 00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:43.519 the design company, saw their ice test tank, talked to 149 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:46.040 some of the naval architects went to where they manufactured 150 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:49.000 the azipods down the east side of of Helsinki, or 151 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:49.839 they assembled them all. 152 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:52.079 They have a simulator there that we test drove around. 153 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:54.600 So right from the get go, icebreakers were in front 154 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:56.639 of me, and as a good Navy nuke and an 155 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:58.879 interested engineer, and I just dove right in and we 156 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:01.319 went to the engine room on a couple of these 157 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:06.079 ice breakers, and everyone's walking around and listening to the 158 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:08.399 crew give us the briefing. I'm there peering underneath the 159 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:10.360 diesel engines, is looking for lou Boy leagues, and I 160 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:13.959 can't help myself. The engine rooms were pristine, the machines 161 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:16.160 were so well maintained, and that sort of brought about 162 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:19.160 this interest, and well, I should learn about this. And 163 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:23.639 because of the persistent interest in icebreakers by the Coast 164 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:28.160 Guard by congressional delegations during the Trump administration, this just 165 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:30.480 built up from there. So it started quite with that 166 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:32.600 one visit, and then every time we'd bring a Coast 167 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.360 Guard officer here, which was quite frequent early on because 168 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:37.519 Finlan was chair of the Coast Guard Arctic Forum at 169 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:40.159 the time, we'd go ahead and do something icebreaker related. 170 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:43.200 So I've I think I've had many many coast Guard 171 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:45.639 business during my time in the Cetus and Naval Atsche, 172 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:47.679 and we'd bring the navy folks out as well to 173 00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:50.799 see some of the technology involved in modern ice breaking. 174 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:53.639 So that's what really sparked the interest, because I find 175 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:56.279 them fascinating and just learning how they operate, Learning how 176 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:59.360 the more modern machines operate and how the development happened 177 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:01.639 from these sort of older idea to the more modern 178 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:03.480 ships has been a fascinating stuff for me. 179 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:08.759 I think the thing that struck me as I started 180 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:10.960 to do my show prep and to dig into this 181 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:13.799 a little bit more is, you know, we're a nation 182 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:16.320 of three hundred and thirty five million souls. We've got 183 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:20.440 the big Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, we have property up 184 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:24.720 in Alaska that the borders on the Arctic Ocean. You know, 185 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:27.039 we're big. We're a big nation. We're all over the place, 186 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:33.639 and you have Finland, little Scandinavian country with an interesting 187 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:38.000 language tucked away five and a half million souls. Yet 188 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:40.919 from a couple of the articles that I've dug up, 189 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:45.080 eighty percent of the ice breakers in the world were 190 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.120 designed in Finland, and they actually build sixty percent of them, 191 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:52.039 so you would think that it is. The Coastguard took 192 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:54.440 over the ice breakers from the Navy back in nineteen 193 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:58.080 sixty six, so nothing new for him. So as you know, 194 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:01.279 we as a nation, we're deciding that, you know, we 195 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:04.919 need to go go ahead and build our ice breakers 196 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:07.279 and go out and start bidding it. That process started. 197 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:10.039 I think in like twenty ten that Finland would be 198 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:13.840 one of our at that time friendly nations. Now as 199 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:17.240 a NATO ally we would really lean on. But it 200 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:20.279 hasn't quite turned out that way in twenty twenty four 201 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:23.000 with what we're trying to do with ice breakers, which 202 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:25.639 is unfortunate. And talk for a little bit for the 203 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:29.120 listeners that might not be aware that it's not an accident. 204 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:33.000 Why Finland really knows icebreakers? Knows icebreakers? 205 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:35.200 Well, right, it's definitely not. 206 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:35.559 So. 207 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:38.279 If you could pull up some of these ice charts 208 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:41.559 which show the persistent sea ice, and you'll see the 209 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:45.919 maximum extent. For example, you'll see ice off Alaska. You 210 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:48.200 won't see much ice in the Northern Atlantic. But if 211 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:50.080 you peel into the Baltic and go to sort of 212 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:52.200 the north up there, which is called the Gulf of 213 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.919 Bothnia at the Day of Basnia. Around Finland, you will 214 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:58.279 see ice indicated every year sort of on that western 215 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:01.720 coast of Finland. And what happens is that the Baltic's 216 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:04.320 a little less salty than the Atlantic Ocean, so the 217 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:06.440 ice form is a little bit quicker, and then you 218 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:09.120 have a persistent wind that blows west to eat so 219 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:11.360 it's not only the ice forming, but the ice that 220 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:14.720 hits the land and stacks and stacks and stacks has forms, 221 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:17.200 large ridges and large bits of ice that are quite 222 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:20.360 quite difficult to penetrate. So with an environment like this, 223 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:23.480 if you want to import and export goods twelve months 224 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:25.080 out of the year, you need a way to keep 225 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:27.240 the ports open. And it's really only been since the 226 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.360 nineteen seventies that that's been a national thing where they're 227 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:34.279 able to actually keep the designated ports open for import 228 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:36.840 and export during the winter. So what you have is 229 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:40.240 these rather difficult ice breaking conditions, even by some of 230 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:43.480 the polar standards, just with the way the ice blows 231 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:45.679 around and the pressure on the ice and how it 232 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:48.840 stacks up. So you need that if you want to 233 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:51.639 eat fresh fruits and vegetables during the winter, if you 234 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:54.960 want to export goods, particularly lumber and other goods from 235 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:59.480 the North back to the other parts of Europe because 236 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:02.399 the rail connections don't work these days. I mean, I 237 00:12:02.440 --> 00:12:04.159 didn't know what I got here, but the rail here 238 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:07.039 is all Soviet gauge and there's only one narrow connection 239 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:10.080 to Sweden, so most stuff has to come by sea. 240 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:12.440 So in order to keep those ports open, this is 241 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:14.960 what the Fins are specialized in. I mean they built 242 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:18.759 their own ice breakers. They build ice breakers for commercial use, 243 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:20.840 and back when we are more friendly with Russia, if 244 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:23.279 they built a lot of icebreakers for Russia and before 245 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:26.399 Russia the Soviet Union. So they've taken what they've learned 246 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:29.360 in the iterative designs of ice breakers to keep their 247 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:32.519 own ports open, applied it to ice breaking in general 248 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:35.679 and have developed quite the ability to build all kinds 249 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:37.840 of ice breakers, and not just sort of Baltic c 250 00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:41.519 es coort ice breakers, but Arctic research vessels and the 251 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:43.480 whole like. It's one of the things that the Fins 252 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:45.879 focus on. It is a government support and industry. I 253 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:48.080 think in order to keep for a takeover of some 254 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:50.720 of the assets, the government has stepped into some of 255 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:53.399 the companies and taken an ownership stake, just recognizing that 256 00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:57.919 it is of national interest. But basically up here everything 257 00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:00.200 does freeze, and if you don't have the ships, you 258 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:01.720 can't keep the trade flowing. 259 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:05.720 Well, let's talk a little bit about why the sudden 260 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:08.200 what seems to be sudden. I know what didn't exactly 261 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:11.159 like within the last ten minutes, but within the last 262 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:12.919 ten years, all of a sudden, there seems to be 263 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:15.600 a huge effort on the US to get back on 264 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:18.440 the icebreaker game. Why is that and what are the 265 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:21.279 steps that we've taken some tennity steps south and talking 266 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:24.679 about the PSCs, but what other things are we doing 267 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:26.039 to try and get back in that game. 268 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:30.440 So if you want to get your blood pressure up 269 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:32.919 a little bit, you can. We've been doing studies the 270 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:36.279 Coast Guard, the government in various forms that I have 271 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:39.039 tracked going back to the Reagan administration saying we need 272 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.519 more icebreakers. You have this nineteen eighty three report in 273 00:13:42.519 --> 00:13:44.720 front of me that says we need four, that then 274 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:47.279 we had three, and you can just read all the 275 00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:50.639 paper of all the analysis. But what really sparkled about 276 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.399 ten years ago was was with the Polar Region to 277 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:56.879 be the Arctics become more accessible during the summer, so 278 00:13:56.919 --> 00:13:59.279 you have an increase in traffic, you have an increase 279 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.840 in ocean traffic, cruise traffic, and a lot of goods 280 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:05.919 and services are starting to flow in the high latitudes. 281 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:08.679 And because of that, the Coastguard needs to do traditional 282 00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:11.600 coast guard functions. And this really is coming in about 283 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:14.519 the past ten years. It's unbelievable. But in two thousand 284 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:18.480 and six they actually essentially gave funding for the ice 285 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:22.279 breaker program to the National Science Foundation to support science missions, 286 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:24.080 and they had to negotiate with the Coast Guard how 287 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:27.759 many days each year and it would become a funding difficulty. 288 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:28.799 So they gave it back to the Coast Guard. 289 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:31.360 But at that point I think that you had these studies, 290 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:34.120 but when it comes to priorities, Dell melting sea ice 291 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:36.639 and access to the Arctic was in the future, not 292 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:38.919 in the present. So that ball that can just get 293 00:14:38.919 --> 00:14:41.159 it kept getting pushed down the road. And with two 294 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:44.480 ice breakers, are one ice breaker available at some points 295 00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:47.200 in time that was sufficient to do the National Science 296 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:50.960 Foundation missions or the Antarctic break in mission, which is 297 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:53.279 what one of our two ice breakers does right now. 298 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:56.039 So there wasn't this sort of although some people saw 299 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:58.519 it coming, it wasn't really a priority and didn't get 300 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:00.519 the funding. And now when you look at these mission 301 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:03.759 sets that the Coastguard has been ignoring for the past 302 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:06.279 twenty twenty years, and some of the ideas of how 303 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:08.720 they would use ice breakers to just patrol our own 304 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:12.960 territorial waters, our own exclusive economic zone, patrol our extended 305 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:15.320 continental shelf in the north slope of Alaska when you 306 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:18.559 have significant Russian traffic going back and forth. Now there's 307 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:20.720 suddenly an interest saying, well, wait a minute, we need 308 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:23.519 to have ships capable of operating up there, are ships 309 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:26.240 capable of ensuring that the Navy can operate up there, 310 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:28.799 just because you know, that's where the Russians are, that's 311 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:31.559 where the Chinese are, and they can operate rather freely 312 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:33.879 up there because of the number and capability of their 313 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:36.960 ice breakers and their ice capable vessels. So we need 314 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:39.000 to have a presence there as well. Otherwise, you know, 315 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.000 if you can't patrol it, if you can't control it, 316 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:44.840 and it should things go poorly that you can't contest it. 317 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.960 In the congressional testimony that you're referencing your article, I 318 00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:54.159 mean there's a lot of I'll go ahead and say it, 319 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.799 a lot of excuses in finger pointing on the US 320 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.200 Coast Guard with the problems they have, part of which 321 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:02.440 was included they did mention, you know, we haven't built 322 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:05.240 an ice breaker in fifty years, like you can't pick 323 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:07.120 up the phone and talk to somebody who has. And 324 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:10.399 they also talk about something that has been a common 325 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:13.879 point of contention for a lot of people in the industry. 326 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:16.679 I know this has been an issue for the people 327 00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:20.399 trying to build the Constellation class frigates and others, and 328 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:24.120 that has to do with having the artisans and work 329 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:26.360 which if you do quality welding, that is an art 330 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:29.000 you know, welders, ship fitters, you know, everybody that goes 331 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:31.600 into building a ship just having trouble finding the people 332 00:16:31.639 --> 00:16:33.840 to do it. And the one thing that has always 333 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.120 bothered me in the series of excuses has been the 334 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:40.120 one we haven't built one in fifty years. When you 335 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:43.159 look at you know, the People's Republic of China, which 336 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:45.519 is not an artic nation, though they're making themselves one. 337 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:47.960 They and I'm going to quote a little bit from 338 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:50.480 an article over g Captain that went out this August 339 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:54.799 quote Chinese shipyards have constructed ice breaking research vessels at 340 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:57.879 an impressive rate, albeit smaller in size than the much 341 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:02.440 delayed US Polar Security cutter. The construction of the Jedi 342 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:06.640 and Tensu Hung how are you prodounceing that took only 343 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:10.240 around two years from first steel cutting to completion. The 344 00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:14.359 much larger jue Long To, China's first domestically built polar 345 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:18.519 ice breaker, was completed in twenty nineteen, in under three years. 346 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:25.240 There's a lot to this story than just the fact 347 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:29.000 that we don't produce enough welders or that we don't 348 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:30.880 know how to pick up the phone. Is that there's 349 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:34.519 an undercurrent here and a lot of echoes that whatever 350 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:38.839 different inputs came into how the US Navy and the 351 00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:42.880 US Coast Guard builds, procures, and manages a program ship, 352 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.559 it's simply not working. When other nations who it hasn't 353 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:49.559 been fifty years, they've never done it, they have the 354 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:53.480 ability to turn to and make it happen. Both nations 355 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:57.680 that only have five point five million people compared to 356 00:17:57.680 --> 00:17:59.720 our three hundred and thirty five are nations that have 357 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.640 over a billion more people than we do in population. 358 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:06.079 There's a larger issue at stake here than just a 359 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:10.319 couple of program managers having trouble working with a shipyard build. 360 00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:15.839 Yes, absolutely, part of it is just the mess that 361 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:18.880 is us procurement when it comes to ships. I don't 362 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:22.359 have a wide range of experience and knowledge of the 363 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:25.359 constellation class, but I look and it just seems it 364 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:28.000 rhymes quite well. One of the things, for example, you 365 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:30.960 brought up the Chinese vessels. So the Shway Long two, 366 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:34.599 which was built in three years, that's a finished design. 367 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:37.000 It was designed right down the road here at acker Arctic. 368 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:39.119 It was tested in the ice tank at acher Arctic. 369 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:41.279 Than an ocher Arctic. They had a couple of guys 370 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:44.039 in China who oversaw production to make sure that their 371 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:50.160 brand quality was maintained and construction of the vessel. So 372 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:53.400 the Chinese basically did it right. They went to the 373 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:55.720 people who know how to build ice breakers and they said, 374 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:58.079 we want you to design one that we can build, 375 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:01.319 and Oker did, and then they overseed construction and there 376 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:03.720 it came out some of the smaller vessels. I think 377 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:06.319 most of the Chinese vessels these days. There's only two 378 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:08.680 of their recent vessels that had been designed in house. 379 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:11.039 And although they were designed in house. They're actually ice 380 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:14.960 tested here in Finland in the ice tanks. So basically 381 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:17.720 they went to the experts and they didn't let themselves 382 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:19.960 get in the way so much. From an outside perspective, 383 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:22.519 it seems to be that their own designs that they're 384 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:24.880 building right now are not quite as capable as the 385 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.880 one that they that they purchased and got from Finland. 386 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.039 But they are making steps and producing them and there's 387 00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:34.839 nothing magic about making an ice breaker. One of NATO's 388 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:39.039 most capable icebreaker is a French cruise ship right now. 389 00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:42.039 That cruise ship, the La Commandant Scharco, is a polar 390 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:45.200 class two ice breaker. It's the best thing NATO has 391 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.079 and it was built in a Romanian shipyard. The Romanians, 392 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:50.200 what do they know about building ice breakers? Well, the 393 00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:53.640 company that does the design work and varred at the shipyard, Bonner. 394 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:56.079 It came together and made sure that the design not 395 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:58.559 other requirements and that it could actually be built. And 396 00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:01.720 I think we missed that US Coast Guard. It seems 397 00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:03.960 to me to use a Navy comparison that, but I 398 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.759 think is probably still true. But ice breaking in the 399 00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:09.160 coast Guard is like my warfare in the United States 400 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:11.799 Navy is this backwater of people who are doing a 401 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:14.640