Speaker 1: This is an interesting week we're having right now. I
Speaker 1: am on my way to Chile, Santiago, Chile for overnight,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to be meeting with our group for
Speaker 1: our tour of Rapa Nui starting that weekend. And this
Speaker 1: is pre recorded, obviously, but I am looking forward to
Speaker 1: reporting back to you exactly what I experienced on Easter Island,
Speaker 1: otherwise known as Rapa Nui. And I gotta tell you,
Speaker 1: I'm excited, and I'm very very excited simply because I
Speaker 1: never really expected to go to Easter Island ever. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've been interested. I've talked to Graham Hancock about it.
Speaker 1: I've talked to Robert Schock, who wrote extensively about his
Speaker 1: experience there. And we're really fortunate to be going to
Speaker 1: the island with Ed Barnhardt. And Ed, as you know,
Speaker 1: is an archaeologist who has spent a great deal of
Speaker 1: time there. In fact, he was there just before COVID
Speaker 1: hit around twenty nineteen and had worked with the local
Speaker 1: administration to survey and really plot what was known and
Speaker 1: what is not known about the settlements on the island.
Speaker 1: What he told me, and we're going to have him
Speaker 1: back on the program. Actually We did have him talk
Speaker 1: about Easter Island in the past, but if you remember,
Speaker 1: he did some work with the previous administration and then
Speaker 1: when the COVID hit, that administration left and there's a
Speaker 1: new administration. So part of the trip that we're visiting
Speaker 1: and going to take is including a reconnection with the
Speaker 1: new administration so he can finish his work. So I
Speaker 1: don't know what that entails, and we'll have on to
Speaker 1: Ed on the program to talk more about what he
Speaker 1: discovered during his survey, but also what he's gonna discover,
Speaker 1: what he's gonna do while we're on this tour with him.
Speaker 1: So it's gonna be fun. I guess what that means
Speaker 1: is he's gonna do a little work along with touring
Speaker 1: and showing us what the island's all about. You know,
Speaker 1: I've always seen these amazing pictures of these moai, these
Speaker 1: huge fifty eighty ton stone sculptures that are at the
Speaker 1: perimeter and all over. They're skeedtered all over the place.
Speaker 1: I've always wondered what they look like up close and personal.
Speaker 1: It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. I'm bringing all my
Speaker 1: equipment to show you as much details as possible, so
Speaker 1: look forward to that. Hey, this is Cliff, your host
Speaker 1: of Earth Ancients, and I hope you're doing well today.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a great deal of fun to visit
Speaker 1: these places. And if you've ever wondered and ever wanted
Speaker 1: to come along with a good tour, Earth Ancients does
Speaker 1: usually about three tours a year, and we have one
Speaker 1: coming up in Turkey. It's June twenty second through July second,
Speaker 1: and it includes a number of archaeologists, includes a number
Speaker 1: of private visits the places like go Beckley, Teppy, Carahan Teppe,
Speaker 1: and then we'll have a guide take us down into
Speaker 1: the underground city of darren Kuru. So we're doing tons
Speaker 1: of stuff on this tour. We're about halfway full. If
Speaker 1: you're interested in touring whatsoever, and I gotta tell you
Speaker 1: Earth Ancients is really a great place to start. Consider us.
Speaker 1: Consider Earth Ancients for the Turkey tour. And also I've
Speaker 1: just finished a dialogue with uh Lydia Di Leong and
Speaker 1: her husband Arturo. We're going to do a Sacred Pyramid
Speaker 1: tour in Guatemala December first, that first week of December
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. And this has just been somewhat completed
Speaker 1: in terms of an understanding of what we want to do.
Speaker 1: The itinerary won't be out for another couple of weeks,
Speaker 1: but if you have interest in any of the tours
Speaker 1: that we're doing, send me an email, send it to
Speaker 1: earth Ancients for you at gmail dot com and I'll
Speaker 1: get right back to you. Now. For all the details
Speaker 1: on all of our tours, go to earth Ancients dot com,
Speaker 1: forward slash Tours. You can see all the itinerary. This
Speaker 1: Turkey tour, we only take twenty people. We don't want
Speaker 1: to take more than that because we want to get
Speaker 1: everybody in one bus. We want everybody to be comfortable.
Speaker 1: We want everybody to be able to see all the
Speaker 1: sites and all the details of every place we go to.
Speaker 1: So check it out earth Ancients dot com, forward slash too,
Speaker 1: and consider Earth Ancients for your upcoming tour. You know,
Speaker 1: and let's say I'm gonna mention is that our tours
Speaker 1: are literally half the typical price. We don't scamp. The
Speaker 1: food is excellent, the travel is excellent, the guides are excellent.
Speaker 1: They're a five star tour across the board, but not
Speaker 1: for the typical price. And you'll be surprised. Do some
Speaker 1: comparisons compare to compare other organizations with Earth Ancients. So
Speaker 1: Earth Ancients dot com for Slah tour. All right, enough
Speaker 1: about that. Today's program is with best selling author Joshua Hammer.
Speaker 1: He wrote a book a couple of years ago called
Speaker 1: The Badass Librarians of Timbuck II, and that was about
Speaker 1: a historical moment in Europe. Today's program has to do
Speaker 1: with the discovery in the eighteen fifties of these cuneiform
Speaker 1: these clay tablets that have these spikes in them, that
Speaker 1: they used stylists a piece of reed and they would
Speaker 1: right into these clay tablets. It's the discovery of what
Speaker 1: at that time was thought to be a lot of
Speaker 1: civilization of the Assyrians. Now we've had an seriologist, Irving
Speaker 1: Finkel on the program to describe just how sophisticated the
Speaker 1: Assyrians were and the Babylonians the later culture. But the
Speaker 1: Assyrians come out of nowhere and in eighteen fifty in
Speaker 1: Iraq present day Iraq, they found a complete library of
Speaker 1: these cuneiforms. They also found huge walls of beautiful reliefs
Speaker 1: and other artifacts that just blew everybody, Wait, what's amazing
Speaker 1: and this is what the story is all about, is
Speaker 1: the fact that the entire European collective Germany, It's Italy, France,
Speaker 1: England and so forth, were on their seat, on the
Speaker 1: edge of their seats with these discoveries. I mean, the
Speaker 1: papers were publishing them. There were columns, and oddly enough,
Speaker 1: this is just before cameras photography was in the use.
Speaker 1: They would send out illustrators to illustrate the artifacts that
Speaker 1: were found. They would send illustrators to show these cuneiforms,
Speaker 1: and it was a fabulous period of time, you know,
Speaker 1: even though the technology isn't anything close to what we
Speaker 1: would consider cool. But Josh talks about this, this riddle
Speaker 1: that they I mean, they're trying to decipher this, and
Speaker 1: what they did is pure genius. So today's program is
Speaker 1: the Mesopotamian Riddle. An archaeologist, a soldier, a clergyman, and
Speaker 1: the race to decipher the world's oldest writing. And my
Speaker 1: guest today is Joshua Hammer. He's coming to us from Berlin, Germany. Hey,
Speaker 1: spring is just around the corner where there's going to
Speaker 1: be getting better and better as we continue on into
Speaker 1: the year. And this means it's time to think about
Speaker 1: getting away on a vacation. Earth Ancients has the best
Speaker 1: tours you could ever imagine, and we are talking about
Speaker 1: Turkey in summer June twenty second through July second. This
Speaker 1: is our second annual tour to this amazing city. We
Speaker 1: all land and meet in Istanbul and for eleven days
Speaker 1: we tour some of the most amazing sights in all
Speaker 1: of Middle East. We're talking the underground city of darren Kuru, Cappadocia,
Speaker 1: go Beckley Tepe and even Carahan Teppy. This is a
Speaker 1: place that is very much off limits to a lot
Speaker 1: of people except Earth Ancients. Our tours are literally half
Speaker 1: fifty percent less than what you typically would pay for
Speaker 1: an all inclusive Lemon Dade tour with our host Mohammed
Speaker 1: Imbraheim and a variety of archaeologists, geologists and scientists who
Speaker 1: are providing information on the latest discoveries in this part
Speaker 1: of the world. The Earth Ancient's second annual Turkey Tour
Speaker 1: is not to be missed. For the full light itenerary
Speaker 1: and more information, go to Earth ancients dot com forward
Speaker 1: slash tours. Click on the banner and you'll see the
Speaker 1: full eight tenerary and all the details. Remember If you
Speaker 1: want a fantastic tour at half the normal fee, think
Speaker 1: about Earth Ancients Tours. We've been doing them for many,
Speaker 1: many years and they are a blast. Earthanses dot Com
Speaker 1: forward slash Tours. Come out and join us. We've got
Speaker 1: a new one for you this week, my friends. Typically
Speaker 1: we are dealing with historical events in real time, we're
Speaker 1: gonna feature something quite new. It has historical ramifications, but
Speaker 1: it's got a twist. It's a I would call it
Speaker 1: a historical fiction, but we're gonna ask the author here
Speaker 1: in the second a little more about it. But it's
Speaker 1: got I mean, from what I've captured so far, it's
Speaker 1: it's a good one. The author is Joshua Hammer. He
Speaker 1: is a New York Times best selling author of six books,
Speaker 1: including The Badass Librarians of Timbuck two, I Gotta Catch You,
Speaker 1: I Gotta Find That one, and his writing has appeared
Speaker 1: in New York Times Magazine, GQ, Atlantic, The New Yorker,
Speaker 1: and The National Geographic. And he's coming to us from Berlin.
Speaker 1: The book we're talking about today is called The Mesopotamian Riddle.
Speaker 1: An archaeologist, a soldier, a clergyman and the race to
Speaker 1: decipher the world's oldest writing, and we're going to get
Speaker 1: into it right now. So Hey, Josh, great to see
Speaker 1: how you doing.
Speaker 2: Good to be here. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about constructing a historical novel that
Speaker 1: has a fictional platform. How do you how do you
Speaker 1: pull that?
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I must correct you. It is nonfiction.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's actual. Well, the actual facts are lined up
Speaker 1: in terms of historical events. But is it is it
Speaker 1: a how would you describe the book?
Speaker 2: I would describe it as a faithful rendering of what
Speaker 2: actually happened. So I guess that qualifies his nonfiction.
Speaker 1: Okay, so it is nonfiction. Excuse me. I'm glad that
Speaker 1: we made that correction. It's it's fascinating to me because
Speaker 1: at the time that we're talking about, we're talking about
Speaker 1: the eighteen fifties, there seemed to be a hell of
Speaker 1: a lot more interest in historical discoveries worldwide, and you
Speaker 1: kind of capture the discovery of cuneiforms in what is
Speaker 1: known at that time as Mesopotamia, which is present day.
Speaker 1: It can be Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Iran in those areas,
Speaker 1: So what was mostly Iraq?
Speaker 2: I'd say mostly Iraq finds a rock.
Speaker 1: Talk about the collection of data and how this was formed,
Speaker 1: how this book was pulled together.
Speaker 2: WHOA, It was a pretty complicated process. I mean, well, essentially,
Speaker 2: the book is about two different quests. One was an
Speaker 2: archaeological quest. There's been rumors about a lost civilization, great
Speaker 2: civilization of Assyria floating around for years, decades, centuries even,
Speaker 2: I mean no, actually going back to the ancient Greeks
Speaker 2: who went by the desert around Mosul and saw sort
Speaker 2: of ill defined mounds and suspected that there was this
Speaker 2: civilization of Nineveh, the Assyrian civilization might be buried up there,
Speaker 2: but nobody really had gotten around to it, you know.
Speaker 2: Except for some peripheral digging around the edges of these mounds,
Speaker 2: nobody really tried to explore them. Oddly enough, it wasn't
Speaker 2: really until the eighteen forties that that archaeological quest began
Speaker 2: in earnest thanks to one one in two individuals, basically
Speaker 2: a Frenchman and an Englishman.
Speaker 1: UH.
Speaker 2: And then the other quest was the intellectual, the detective,
Speaker 2: the linguistic detected detective story to UH decipher these strange
Speaker 2: inscriptions and had written in some dead language that were
Speaker 2: found on the inscribed on the walls of these palaces
Speaker 2: that they were uncovering this times. So you had these
Speaker 2: really these two this confluence of of quests going on
Speaker 2: and exactly the same, well, one one catalized the other. Obviously,
Speaker 2: although there had been a few, you know, over the
Speaker 2: years of decades, there had been some qneiform inscriptions had
Speaker 2: surfaced in various places. You know, a diplomat might pull
Speaker 2: up some slab lying under uh, you know, in the
Speaker 2: dust in Babylon, and and and so things were there,
Speaker 2: you know, but they they really did not dominate thinking
Speaker 2: about the ancients like the Egyptians did, you know. So
Speaker 2: what really wasn't until the eighteen forties that they began
Speaker 2: to discover the ruins of Assyria. This whole lost empire
Speaker 2: came back to life. And that's when I was really
Speaker 2: resurrected from the dead, and that's when the real effort
Speaker 2: to figure out what these ancients were saying began. So
Speaker 2: basically was a question of following both of these quests
Speaker 2: and then kind of weaving the stories together structurally and
Speaker 2: also trying to understand get my brain around how these
Speaker 2: decipherers worked.
Speaker 1: Right, And what I love about this story is. It's
Speaker 1: a detective story, but it's also a race to decipher
Speaker 1: these cuneiforms. The characters are fascinating. You have Austin Lanyard,
Speaker 1: Henry Rawlingson, Edward Higgs Higgs as the three main figure
Speaker 1: points that are pulling together or their knowledge, pulling together
Speaker 1: their resources to actually begin uh deciphering this this uh
Speaker 1: these cuneiform what are? What are? The countries were involved
Speaker 1: in this, and we know Germany had a big hand
Speaker 1: in this, but who else is.
Speaker 2: In Which aspect are we talking about? You mean the
Speaker 2: archaeological aspect or the actual decipherment or well, okay, so
Speaker 2: really yeah, it's such a complicated tale because like, unlike
Speaker 2: the hieroglyphs, which had one language and one writing system,
Speaker 2: uniform was a writing system that was used to write
Speaker 2: a lot of different a lot of different ancient languages.
Speaker 2: So you have people working on all these You had
Speaker 2: you had Germans, you had some Germans, you had Danes,
Speaker 2: you had English, British, Irish, French. It was a multi
Speaker 2: national effort working on a lot of different different scripts,
Speaker 2: h and languages, but all written aostentially in these with
Speaker 2: these weird wedge shaped characters that we now know, originated
Speaker 2: in Sumer like thirty four hundred BC, and then kind
Speaker 2: of proliferated around the Near East, you know, over the
Speaker 2: over the millennia and really kept going for thirty five
Speaker 2: hundred years in various forms.
Speaker 1: We've had a cuneiform expert from the British Museum on
Speaker 1: this program. We've had a couple of people and a
Speaker 1: lot of these are these these tablets are daily activities,
Speaker 1: you know, from you know, just doing you know, chores
Speaker 1: and things like that had at this time when they
Speaker 1: began deciphering deciphering them. Were there historical references that were
Speaker 1: of any note in the early period of the finds.
Speaker 2: Well, so there were there were two basic uh reference points.
Speaker 2: The Bible, which the Old Testament, which talked about the
Speaker 2: really only discussed the Assyrian Empire in context of the
Speaker 2: It's it's, it's attacks on the Jews in Uh, Judea
Speaker 2: and Samaria. So there were long Book of Kings for instance,
Speaker 2: Second Book of Kings has lots of passages about the
Speaker 2: the Assyrian kings and their attempts to conquer Jerusalem and
Speaker 2: and the the dispersal of the Ten Tribes. So that
Speaker 2: was one point, and then the Greeks, people like Herodotus.
Speaker 2: The ancient Greek historians wrote about the Assyrians, but from
Speaker 2: the perspective of people who lived hundreds of years later,
Speaker 2: so they didn't really have a contemporaneous knowledge and a
Speaker 2: lot of what they wrote about. I mean, Herodotus was,
Speaker 2: you know, the father of history, but he was also
Speaker 2: known as a great, a great, a great fabuloust, so
Speaker 2: so a lot of people didn't trust what he wrote about.
Speaker 2: But that that's basically what you had. You had the Greeks,
Speaker 2: and you had the classical historians, and that was the
Speaker 2: sum of knowledge about these people. It wasn't very much,
Speaker 2: but yeah, it gave it gave a ground that, it
Speaker 2: gave some reference points.
Speaker 1: The idea of a lot of civilization seems to be
Speaker 1: a theme in the book that is grasping the imaginations
Speaker 1: of the people at that time. And one of the
Speaker 1: things that I found was interesting that is not really
Speaker 1: a focal point for today's society is they would these
Speaker 1: archaeologists would take huge sections, if not entire buildings Hallom
Speaker 1: back to Europe, rebuild them and have these daily exhibits
Speaker 1: where they you know, it's like you're back in them
Speaker 1: in the Mediterranean. It's really amazing what they did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the thing is about these things that
Speaker 2: those like the one of the reasons that the that
Speaker 2: the Egyptians maintained a greater hold on the public imagination
Speaker 2: and the Assyrians did because you Egyptians built in stone
Speaker 2: and these things lasted for you know, for thousands of years.
Speaker 2: The the Mesopotamians built in mud brick. That stuff disintegrated,
Speaker 2: but they did panel these mud brick buildings with incredible
Speaker 2: carved bar reliefs, you know, obsidia alabaster limestone bar reliefs.
Speaker 2: Often these like thin layers spread over these mud So
Speaker 2: those survived, a lot of them survived. The buildings themselves
Speaker 2: were destroyed when they tried to recreate the lost Kingdom
Speaker 2: of Assyria, you know, or Nineveh, the great capital of
Speaker 2: Nineva back in England for like a World's Fair exhibition
Speaker 2: in the eighteen fifties. It was all like completely complete
Speaker 2: fantasy because they didn't really know what these things look like.
Speaker 2: They just used you know, they used motifs, they used
Speaker 2: Doric you know, Greek columns. I mean, just like a
Speaker 2: weird mishmash of architectural ancient architectural designs that you know,
Speaker 2: really came out of layers imagination and the imagination of
Speaker 2: his architectural partner whose name mentioned in the book, but
Speaker 2: a case. But anyway, but what they did have with
Speaker 2: these so they had these these these alabaster bar reliefs
Speaker 2: that were pretty detailed and gave kind of an amazing
Speaker 2: view of walled cities that were conquered by the Assyrians
Speaker 2: and battlefields and its incredible stuff. You know, really gave
Speaker 2: you feeling for I mean, just imagine like there was
Speaker 2: no not you know, really very little knowledge about these people.
Speaker 2: It's certainly no pictorial evidence, right, and then suddenly they're
Speaker 2: just digging up like voluminous images of what life was like,
Speaker 2: even you know, with really incredible detail, down to the
Speaker 2: way that these people and their enemies were dressed. I mean,
Speaker 2: really got to find the chariots, what the chariots looked like,
Speaker 2: their horses, the actual sacking of the city. They had
Speaker 2: like a cinematic sense of this stuff. So it really
Speaker 2: opened up insight into a world it was only more
Speaker 2: you know, vaguely understood or known about. But the buildings
Speaker 2: themselves were gone, there was nothing left of those.
Speaker 1: So so you mentioned Laird as the one who's building
Speaker 1: these exhibits is I mean, they found these uniforms in
Speaker 1: an ancient library, but it was not really a library.
Speaker 1: It was more like a hole in the.
Speaker 2: Ground because that was pretty much where it was left, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it was all this, like you said.
Speaker 2: There's different there are different things. So the first things
Speaker 2: they found were these stone alabaster bar releafs with these
Speaker 2: incredible inscriptions, you know, chiseled into the stone. Right, that
Speaker 2: was like the first wave of findings. And then later
Speaker 2: Layer kept going back. He stumbled into you're kind of right,
Speaker 2: it is a library. It was a repository of all
Speaker 2: the documents from this particular long raining power, powerful Assyrian king.
Speaker 2: Everything was accumulated in a couple of rooms and the
Speaker 2: walls had collapsed, and so Layer just stumbled into this
Speaker 2: the remains of this of this corner of the palace,
Speaker 2: and just found like thousands of clay tablets, broken tablets, coupled.
Speaker 2: Some of them were intact, many of them were broken,
Speaker 2: but like an astonishing array of of of material, all
Speaker 2: written in the same cuneiform writing that was on the
Speaker 2: walls of the temples. But that one was that that
Speaker 2: was sort of much clear you know, written in stone
Speaker 2: chiseled in there easier to read. This was a little
Speaker 2: bit trickier. Some of these things were incredibly minial. One
Speaker 2: of the things that the Assyrians liked to do was
Speaker 2: to create these cylinders like were maybe like the size
Speaker 2: of a bowling pin a bow, and they would and
Speaker 2: they would chisel inscribed with these incredibly fine instruments, these
Speaker 2: cuneiform symbols, like basically telling the same stories that were
Speaker 2: on the palace walls, but in miniature, I mean incredible miniature.
Speaker 2: So and then they were and then they would bury
Speaker 2: them like twenty feet or ten feet underground. It's almost
Speaker 2: like a time capsule for future kings to discover. And
Speaker 2: that they would excavate these things, and then that was
Speaker 2: a tremendous challenge to read those ones, much more difficult
Speaker 2: than the inscriptions on the walls.
Speaker 1: Talk a little about a bit about the cuneiform. You
Speaker 1: describe the writing as arrows, different arrows.
Speaker 2: Arrow ahead is the way they used to be called.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's because the tool is a stylist, right.
Speaker 2: Well, it's like it's like it's a it's a thick
Speaker 2: read that grows in the Middle East. And then they
Speaker 2: would pull off the stalk and they would split it,
Speaker 2: and it would because it was it would split naturally.
Speaker 2: And then each one of those stalks would end. You
Speaker 2: would end up with a wedge shaped end, and then
Speaker 2: you would wouldn't you weren't like Carvey. You were just
Speaker 2: basically placing this onto wet clay. This is the wet
Speaker 2: claim method. I'm not talking so, so the chronology is
Speaker 2: that they came up with this wet claim method where
Speaker 2: they would just just put the the wedge shaped edge
Speaker 2: of the stylist, press it onto the clay and then
Speaker 2: and that's how they would write. And then later on
Speaker 2: when they created these giant palaces in Mesopotamia, they took
Speaker 2: those same signs and they chiseled them into the walls,
Speaker 2: but the clay never really just appeared. That was always
Speaker 2: a medium for for for for writing as well. So
Speaker 2: this is like began and this began, you know, a
Speaker 2: thirty four hundred b c. Or so, and evolved over
Speaker 2: the over the centuries.
Speaker 1: I don't want to give the book away, but uh,
Speaker 1: what were the references used to begin uh decipherment of
Speaker 1: these cuneiforms?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 1: Okay, not that you had to do it all away
Speaker 1: because that's a lot.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, I'll try to. One of the reference points was
Speaker 2: the Rosetta Stone, which was a different, different writing, different
Speaker 2: language entirely, but some of the techniques from the Rosetta
Speaker 2: Stone were also employed in this. This dicipherment came next.
Speaker 2: So what the Rosetta Stone was, in case many of
Speaker 2: your people watching this don't don't quite get it, It
Speaker 2: was a slab discovered by the French. It was a
Speaker 2: proclamation about the new king, and it was written because
Speaker 2: Egypt there was about seventy or eighty. It was a
Speaker 2: couple maybe one hundred couple one hundred or two hundred
Speaker 2: years before Christ and Egypt was a Greek colony. So
Speaker 2: you had ancient Greek written in one level, and you
Speaker 2: had higher glyphs on another level, and you had something
Speaker 2: called demotic script, which was like a shorthand version of hieroglyphs.
Speaker 2: And ancient Greek was a living language, I mean, it
Speaker 2: was a dead language, but the writing was understood, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, people studied ancient Greek in class in London,
Speaker 2: in English boarding schools all over the world. They were
Speaker 2: able to take that known language and kind of match
Speaker 2: it up against these unknown languages, try to find parallels.
Speaker 2: The word king. They would see the word, you know,
Speaker 2: the name of a particular king Ptolemy appeared like fourteen
Speaker 2: times in the Greek. They looked at in the higher glyss,
Speaker 2: what other you know, what do we see anything here
Speaker 2: like a similar pattern if some similar characters being used
Speaker 2: fourteen you know, fourteen times, And they matched them up
Speaker 2: that way and were able to sort of slowly get
Speaker 2: the sounds out. Well. The same thing was done with cuniform.
Speaker 2: It was. It was a question of except in this
Speaker 2: case it's more complicated, much more complicated than the Rosetta stone.
Speaker 2: But still it was the idea of taking a known
Speaker 2: language because they were written like three. The ancient scribes
Speaker 2: wrote three languages side by side, and they did the
Speaker 2: same kind of thing, match them up, get the sounds.
Speaker 2: The thing is, it was much more complicated because the
Speaker 2: Syrian Babyloni wasn't just a phonetic language it was it
Speaker 2: was a It had phonetic syllables, and it also had logograms,
Speaker 2: which were just symbols meaning you know, things, and it
Speaker 2: was all just sort of thrown together without any real
Speaker 2: understanding rhyme or reason. Nobody quite knew, and so it
Speaker 2: took them a long time to figure all this. How
Speaker 2: do you know what is a phonetic character? How do
Speaker 2: you know what's a logogram? You know, how do you
Speaker 2: pronounce the logograms? There were just like a million questions
Speaker 2: that they had to kind of work their way through.
Speaker 2: And I can't profess to understand eight is the l
Speaker 2: it was done, but I have a little bit of
Speaker 2: an understanding of how they got started anyway.
Speaker 1: It's that's the real challenge of this this book, is
Speaker 1: how in the hell they were able to decipher this
Speaker 1: without artificial intelligence. We're talking about AI today using and
Speaker 1: beginning to uh seek and define things we can't understand.
Speaker 2: You know, I've always loved the challenge, I really have
Speaker 2: since I've read I've read a few books about deciphering
Speaker 2: ancient scripts, and I've always found it really fascinating. So
Speaker 2: that's why I was drawn to this one, because I
Speaker 2: hadn't really read a good account of how it was done,
Speaker 2: and this wasn't you know, this was the oldest language
Speaker 2: in them all. You know, you haven't really been no
Speaker 2: popular account at this store of this tale.
Speaker 1: But I love it. Yeah, you have a whole chapter
Speaker 1: on the black obelisk. How does that play a part
Speaker 1: in this uh discovery?
Speaker 2: H Well, the black obelists. So that was an amazing
Speaker 2: artifact that was discovered in one of these by layered
Speaker 2: in one of these ancient palaces. I believe it was
Speaker 2: any lost city of Nimroud, so like Wood was one
Speaker 2: of the oldest Assyrian cities, dating back to about I
Speaker 2: want to say, about nine hundred BC, and buried ten
Speaker 2: feet underground, as these objects often were, was this black
Speaker 2: limestone monument an obelisk, I guess it was about seven
Speaker 2: feet long. It was buried sideways, but it was meant
Speaker 2: to stand, and it contained a series of very well
Speaker 2: defined pictures of what looked to be like a bunch
Speaker 2: of the Assyrian king being visited and paid tribute to
Speaker 2: by conquered vassals, all bearing gifts. So they had each
Speaker 2: each side had I think five of these really intricate
Speaker 2: barralings showing guys bringing you know, bacty in two humped camels, monkeys, elephants,
Speaker 2: precious jewels, wood whatever, bundles of wood. But it just
Speaker 2: gave this incredible one of the most vivid pictures found
Speaker 2: to that point of life in the Assyrian court and
Speaker 2: each each panel had a canea form inscription next to it.
Speaker 2: So it was really invaluable for the for the deciphers
Speaker 2: because they now had, you know, at least a start here.
Speaker 2: You know, they had the pit, the image, and they
Speaker 2: had the qunea form and obviously there was a connection
Speaker 2: between them. It was like a graphic novel from the
Speaker 2: eighth the ninth century BC and uh and it was
Speaker 2: because it was also like an incredible magnificent It was
Speaker 2: incredibly well preserved, so it was like the best preserved
Speaker 2: piece of of relic from the Assyrian Empire that had
Speaker 2: at that up to that point been discovered. So it
Speaker 2: was really treasured. And when it came finally in forty
Speaker 2: you had this like long dramatic story that's in the
Speaker 2: book of how it was transported from Basra at the
Speaker 2: southern end of Iraq all the way around India and
Speaker 2: finally to London, and how it was it ran into
Speaker 2: a major hurricane, the ship toppled over for months, they
Speaker 2: had no word about the fate of the obelisk. Finally,
Speaker 2: like in October, after it was left in February, in
Speaker 2: October the ship arrived it somehow managed to pull itself
Speaker 2: together and arrived at port and the Obelist turned out
Speaker 2: to have been saved. So it was really sort of
Speaker 2: a national celebration because people had seen images of this
Speaker 2: thing draw a graphic artist had sent pictures of it
Speaker 2: back to London, So there was a lot of interest
Speaker 2: in this thing, and then when it was saved, of
Speaker 2: course there was a lot of rejoicing that it had
Speaker 2: been took a place. Still it's at the British.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to ask you it's still there.
Speaker 2: It's not the British Museum. Okay, very cool to see. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's not huge. It's not like the giant you know,
Speaker 2: winged colosside that guard the palace case, which are like
Speaker 2: seventeen some of them are seventeen eighteen feet tall, you know,
Speaker 2: the wing buff half men, half beast, half lion, half bull. No,
Speaker 2: it's small, but it's it's the colors are very vibrant,
Speaker 2: the pick, the images are a vibrant. Everything about it
Speaker 2: is lustrous and detail and kind of amazing.
Speaker 1: We're going to take a short break to allow our
Speaker 1: sponsors to identify themselves and we will return shortly with
Speaker 1: my guest today, Josh Hammer. Discussing his latest book, The
Speaker 1: Mesopotamian Riddle. Will be right back. My guest today is
Speaker 1: best selling author Josh Hammer, who is presenting a new
Speaker 1: book called The Mesopotamian Riddle. This is the story of
Speaker 1: the Cuneiform decipherment, these Assyrian tablets that are used to
Speaker 1: document daily activities, various laws, rulings, and also the cosmology
Speaker 1: of the Assyrians. Yeah, it's funny because I was at
Speaker 1: the British Museum a couple of years ago and I
Speaker 1: actually saw the Rosetta Stone itself, and I I can
Speaker 1: see why the Egyptians want it back, as well as
Speaker 1: other artifacts. It's like the British Museum has all this
Speaker 1: booty from the period of when they were the world's uh,
Speaker 1: I guess elite. You might say, how do we look
Speaker 1: at that today when we when we have these artifacts
Speaker 1: that are you know, not really the you know, belong
Speaker 1: to the Brits.
Speaker 2: Well, there are lots of argument. Obviously, the British Museum
Speaker 2: is under like intense fire right now, like you know,
Speaker 2: from all from all sides. The Nigerians want the bronzes back,
Speaker 2: the Greeks want the Eligion marbles back, the Turks want
Speaker 2: the bodrum marbles back marbles meaning freezes, you know, beautiful
Speaker 2: freezes that were basically well plundered out of out of
Speaker 2: these countries by British archaeologists who you know, under circumstances
Speaker 2: that that remain even now a bit unclear, clearly bribery.
Speaker 2: You know, contracts were signed, pasha's and the Ottoman Sultan
Speaker 2: turned over these artifacts legally at the time to many
Speaker 2: of you know, under under the under Ottoman law or
Speaker 2: under the decree of the of the Sultan, these things
Speaker 2: were handed over. How much duress was involved, it's all
Speaker 2: very murky, you know, but clearly there's a move now,
Speaker 2: a big push to bring and including the liar stuff
Speaker 2: that was taken from Iraq. The Iraqis want that stuff back.
Speaker 2: So they have legitimate reasons. They've built museums. They they
Speaker 2: they they can house these artifacts and these relics in
Speaker 2: relatively uh secure and beautiful facilities. Now they were hiring
Speaker 2: find you know, architects to do the work. But you know,
Speaker 2: the British, the British Museum has been very resistant to this.
Speaker 2: Needless to say, there are some and there's a lot
Speaker 2: of sentiment on both sides. You know, a lot of
Speaker 2: people believe that the British Museum is British Museum has
Speaker 2: a lot of defenders. They say, it's it's it's it's
Speaker 2: repository for the world it has, you know, it's it's
Speaker 2: it's visited by I don't know the number of millions
Speaker 2: of people that visited every year, but clearly you're not
Speaker 2: going to get that kind of audience. It's to see
Speaker 2: wing bulls at the museum, and you know, shouldn't wing
Speaker 2: bulls be brought back to most plus moscil in Iraq
Speaker 2: has had a history of incredible violence and FAOs and
Speaker 2: attacks by ISIS, and so how secure is a place
Speaker 2: like that. There are arguments to be made for for
Speaker 2: for just going with the status quo.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been to the met in New York
Speaker 1: and they have entire temples that have been uh disassembled
Speaker 1: and re erected in the inside there. Yeah, the Berlin
Speaker 1: Museum has amazing artifacts, and I went to the in France,
Speaker 1: another place that has complete temples that have been disassembled
Speaker 1: and reassembled. This is I mean, you're making a good
Speaker 1: point as to why these artifacts are there. They're protected,
Speaker 1: but still as I mean, I go to Egypt, every
Speaker 1: year on tour with my listeners, and they're very adamant
Speaker 1: about getting artifacts back from the Brits and the and
Speaker 1: the Germans and the Americans.
Speaker 2: So well, they've got the very charismatic archaeologist Zaki Howas
Speaker 2: now leading the Yeah, I guess, leading the effort to
Speaker 2: get both the Rosetta stone from the British Museum and
Speaker 2: the extremely well known bust of Nefertiti from the Noise
Speaker 2: Museum in Berlin. They want that back. Nothing is I
Speaker 2: mean they I believe they're either they're a new museum
Speaker 2: in Giza, either under construction or finished. I'm not really sure.
Speaker 1: It's partly open.
Speaker 2: I haven't been to is it. I haven't been in many.
Speaker 1: Fifty percent open fifty percent. It's a one billion dollar
Speaker 1: museum that has had delays for almost eight years.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, interesting. Uh So we'll see what happens when
Speaker 2: that thing finally gets going and whether But I you know,
Speaker 2: obviously I think that the I know, the Noise Museum
Speaker 2: has no intention of turning that never TV over.
Speaker 1: Oh that's that that's a classic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's their biggest draw, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Hey, talk a little bit about the dating. Uh,
Speaker 1: procedures because in the eighteen fifties C fourteen was not
Speaker 1: developed yet. Uh for for dating, Why how are they
Speaker 1: coming up with these dates for for artifacts?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is pretty you're you're that's a really question.
Speaker 2: That's an inexact science to say the least. I would
Speaker 2: guess that they. I mean, first of all, they had
Speaker 2: biblical biblical records. They knew you know, I mean certain.
Speaker 2: I mean the book of the Book of some of
Speaker 2: the books of the Prophets have been dated, have been
Speaker 2: dated fairly reliably, so they could, uh there was there,
Speaker 2: there are several kings. Once they were able to read
Speaker 2: the king's names, they could match up the names of
Speaker 2: these kings on the palace walls with the uh, with
Speaker 2: the passages in in in the in the profit in
Speaker 2: the books of the Prophets, and get a rough idea
Speaker 2: of the century. But they You're right, they they were
Speaker 2: able to get this down to uh, you know, to
Speaker 2: to the to to with an exactitude in terms of
Speaker 2: the genealogy of the kings and what years that they reigned.
Speaker 2: I don't you got me stumped there. I don't know
Speaker 2: how they were.
Speaker 1: I'm asking, Josh, is that that I was wondering as
Speaker 1: you were writing the book, you were looking at documents
Speaker 1: where there was a comparative steady of one artifact to another,
Speaker 1: and perhaps, as you're saying, there was the picture of
Speaker 1: a king that was duplicated over, you know, and the
Speaker 1: time period was relatively well known of that.
Speaker 2: But also, as I'm thinking about, the Assyrians would have
Speaker 2: known the you know, the reign, the dates of a
Speaker 2: particular king's reign, and whatever date system they were using,
Speaker 2: that would have been in the inscriptions the the the
Speaker 2: they could read, I mean very quickly. They modern day
Speaker 2: deciphers knew how to read Assyrian numbers. So given that
Speaker 2: information they could sort of figure and they could they
Speaker 2: could get an order of the kings and look at
Speaker 2: the years that they reigned, number of years, and assemble
Speaker 2: a genealogy that way. So once you had that a sign,
Speaker 2: and then if you figured out specific date of one king.
Speaker 2: I don't know how they came up with an exactly
Speaker 2: an exact date to begin this whole process, but once
Speaker 2: you had a fixed date nailed down, then the rest
Speaker 2: of it would fall into place, right, So it couldn't
Speaker 2: have been easy, but you know, and at the beginning,
Speaker 2: I think they were floundering. They didn't really even know
Speaker 2: whether the Assyrian temples and palaces they were digging up
Speaker 2: like predated the Persian Empire, the Okamenid Empire, or followed it.
Speaker 2: And the Persians ruled like Darius and Cyrus. They ruled
Speaker 2: in about the sixth in the sixth century BC, and
Speaker 2: they it turned out that they followed the Assyrians, you know,
Speaker 2: by but nobody knew that at the time, right, So
Speaker 2: they were they were at a loss in the early days.
Speaker 2: But obviously they put it all together within you know, ten,
Speaker 2: ten twenty years, they were able to get a pretty
Speaker 2: good chronology.
Speaker 1: Would you say after finishing this book that they have
Speaker 1: the dates fairly well established or there's still question marks
Speaker 1: about some of the I mean, because we're talking about
Speaker 1: very early days three three thousand, four hundred BC.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know about well, that's all. That's all
Speaker 2: very rough, right when you go back that far. Nobody's
Speaker 2: nailing down dates, that's true. Nobody is nailing down dates.
Speaker 2: And how they even got those dates thirty four hundred BC,
Speaker 2: I don't know. You messed off asking a real sumerology
Speaker 2: sumer sumerologist about that, but I can tell you that
Speaker 2: as you know, as as Assyria entered. It's kind of
Speaker 2: the the Neo Assyrian Empire phase, which was from about
Speaker 2: the beginning of the ninth century BC until the destruction
Speaker 2: of Ninevah in six' TWELVE. Bc those like three hundred
Speaker 2: years were pretty well. Documented they they're able to date
Speaker 2: those pretty, exactly even to the point of knowing exactly
Speaker 2: like the month that nineva was destroyed by The babylonians
Speaker 2: and The, meads you, know and that's definitely fixed at
Speaker 2: six TWELVE bc as far AS i can. Remember how
Speaker 2: they got that exact, Date i'm really not, sure but
Speaker 2: that's kind of become the accepted.
Speaker 1: Wisdom you have to applaud our, ancestors who you, know
Speaker 1: layered In rollingson And hitticks as very bright, people extremely
Speaker 1: bright without the use of, computers without the use of
Speaker 1: any kind of data, storage they were able to pull
Speaker 1: this all.
Speaker 2: Together the maddening thing about these, guys and also the
Speaker 2: deciphers of hieroglyphs Of champollion and being the most well
Speaker 2: known of, those is that they did not write about their.
Speaker 2: Methodology most of the. Time they did not explain like
Speaker 2: how they got from point a to POINT b to POINT,
Speaker 2: c and the decipher, yes, really which makes things really
Speaker 2: tricky if you're trying to get inside their heads and explain.
Speaker 2: IT i had a hard that was a real stumbling.
Speaker 2: BLOCK i kept talking to these BECAUSE i had Some
Speaker 2: assyrian really like philologists and the seriologists THAT i would
Speaker 2: consult on a regular, basis AND i just kept asking,
Speaker 2: them you, know where are the, records where's the, diary
Speaker 2: where are the? Diaries? Where, dude where do these guys
Speaker 2: explain how they did? It and you're just left with
Speaker 2: fragments here and there that you have to you kind
Speaker 2: of have to piece it all together on the basis
Speaker 2: of a few. Fragments they just didn't really feel the
Speaker 2: need to explain it to. People quite quite. Maddening that's.
Speaker 1: Amazing we've Had Irving finkel on a number of times
Speaker 1: in a seriologists at The British museum And i've always,
Speaker 1: wondered And i'm curious about your thinking on this if
Speaker 1: the decipherment is, correct because he, SAYS i, mean we've
Speaker 1: had people on the, show people like Not, zachharacisian but
Speaker 1: people like, that who have misinterpreted the cuneiform. Tablets, yeah
Speaker 1: and not necessarily got the dates, wrong but got the
Speaker 1: actions or the lives of various kings. Incorrect so what
Speaker 1: you're saying is that this team that you feature in
Speaker 1: this book had it together pretty pretty. Closely but have
Speaker 1: you talked To Irving finkel at?
Speaker 2: All? Yeah of, course of. Course. YEAH i MEAN i
Speaker 2: didn't ask him that. Question he wasn't particularly helpful to,
Speaker 2: me BUT i HAD i turned to other seriologists who
Speaker 2: were far more. Helpful AND i think bit territorial you might, say.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah and it's like my version is the best
Speaker 1: version you know of the.
Speaker 2: Story, LOOK i mean they you, know that's what they
Speaker 2: had in THIS i begin the book with this eighteen
Speaker 2: fifty seven challenge because there was so much skepticism about
Speaker 2: whether the writing system could ever be, deciphered that they
Speaker 2: held a basically ad contest where they got four philologists,
Speaker 2: together four supposed experts in The Syria babylonian, language and
Speaker 2: had them all trends take the lithographs of one particular
Speaker 2: cylinder from eleven HUNDRED bc home with, them not the
Speaker 2: actual cylinder but. Lithograph it gave him like a couple
Speaker 2: of months to work on, it and then sent a
Speaker 2: sealed packet to The Royal asiatics, side and if they
Speaker 2: matched up more or, less it would be considered you
Speaker 2: could safely say that the, language that the writing and
Speaker 2: the language had been, cracked that it was. Understood and
Speaker 2: they did effectively do. That they got it pretty. Close
Speaker 2: but there were lots of, gaps you, know there were
Speaker 2: because because there were logograms, pictograms they just didn't understand
Speaker 2: there were multiple ways of reading a single sign that
Speaker 2: were confounding to. People there were lots of. Ways in,
Speaker 2: fact the reason that they had that there was so much.
Speaker 2: Skepticism one particular, scholar An irish, scholar looked at the
Speaker 2: signs for the name of the king Nebucud, nezzer The
Speaker 2: babylonian king Nebucud, nezzer which one of these Fellows hanks
Speaker 2: had translated as Nebukud, nezzer but at the same time
Speaker 2: the whole way of. Talking one of the find of
Speaker 2: one of the findings as they were delving into into
Speaker 2: quiform was that a lot of these characters had a
Speaker 2: multiplicity of. Meanings they could be read, five, six seven different.
Speaker 2: Ways and this scholar pointed, out, well if you use that,
Speaker 2: PRINCIPLE i could look at this this these six characters
Speaker 2: that supposedly form the word Nebucud, nezzer there are actually
Speaker 2: three hundred and seventeen thousand other ways THAT i could
Speaker 2: write this. Name so your theories are. Crap you, know
Speaker 2: this is just a. Hoax you were just. Us you
Speaker 2: could come up with any name and make me and
Speaker 2: try to make me believe. It so that was kind
Speaker 2: of the thinking going on that led to this conference
Speaker 2: in eighteen fifty seven where they just, said, well we
Speaker 2: need some way because those who supported the discipherment would say, that,
Speaker 2: well you, know you look at these things in. Context
Speaker 2: there are ways to narrow down exactly how these characters
Speaker 2: are being, used and experts can figure it. Out it is,
Speaker 2: complicated but there are ways to figure it. Out and
Speaker 2: that's what this competition was all, about just sort of
Speaker 2: proving that we can get it pretty. Close and they
Speaker 2: did get it pretty, close you, know close. Enough it.
Speaker 2: Was it was with The annals of A king from
Speaker 2: eleven HUNDRED, bc you, know very complex written in these,
Speaker 2: tiny tiny characters on that bowling pin sized, cylinder talking
Speaker 2: about you, know lion hunts and building consecrating temples and
Speaker 2: military campaigns In, syria what is An syria and giving, gifts,
Speaker 2: vassals giving, gifts lots of description in, here thousands and
Speaker 2: thousands Of canaan form, characters and you, know you could
Speaker 2: have taken that in any number of. Directions so it
Speaker 2: was really a great, challenge, right which is why they picked.
Speaker 2: It and the four guys got together and they presented
Speaker 2: Fair although there were lots of, gaps the findings were
Speaker 2: close enough that they did, say, well we're coming to
Speaker 2: an understanding of. This BUT i do believe that the
Speaker 2: decipherment process went on for, LIKE i think it's still. Going,
Speaker 2: YEAH i think there's still doubts, about you, know certain.
Speaker 2: Things it's not like a cut and dried issue at.
Speaker 2: All it's not like because hiering. GLYPHS i think it's
Speaker 2: fairly well done. Now But i'm pretty Sure i'm not
Speaker 2: in a, syriologist But i'm pretty sure that there's still some.
Speaker 1: Questions oh, yeah there. Is what did we learn about
Speaker 1: These syrians in terms of their? Education they seem to
Speaker 1: be a very literate, culture and this comes out in this.
Speaker 1: Decipherment but talk a little bit about what this uh
Speaker 1: the team finds in terms of these, people they seemed
Speaker 1: LIKE i, said very.
Speaker 2: Literate, well you, know the literacy dates back To one
Speaker 2: of the facts THAT i found really amazing was going
Speaker 2: back all further back To, summer which is where it all,
Speaker 2: began you, know further south in the southernmost corner of
Speaker 2: what is Now, iraq and that they would archaeologists would
Speaker 2: pour through the remains of these how of houses in
Speaker 2: various you, know ancient sites dating back to about twenty
Speaker 2: five HUNDRED, bc and virtually every one of these houses
Speaker 2: they would find tablets with writing on. Them so this
Speaker 2: was an incredible sign of how literate this particular society.
Speaker 2: WAS i, mean there were there were schools that taught
Speaker 2: writing to, scribes but not just the, elite elite government
Speaker 2: or religious. SCRIBES i mean that, writing that literacy trickled
Speaker 2: down well beyond just the elite of that. Society AND
Speaker 2: i would assume That, Assyria, assyria which borrowed the signs
Speaker 2: from the from The sumerians but gave them different. Values
Speaker 2: BUT i would assume that that society was pretty much,
Speaker 2: this you, know at a similar level of, literacy and that,
Speaker 2: YES i mean they wrote about everything from well what
Speaker 2: what what? Rawson sorry what? Well? Rawls and anla. Are
Speaker 2: discovered in these libraries were everything from, uh you, know
Speaker 2: a lot of medical, stuff a lot of a lot
Speaker 2: of routine bureaucratic, stuff medical treatises about how to cure various,
Speaker 2: illnesses even Psychological council for psychological, problems astronomical, observations, calendars
Speaker 2: uh scientific lots of, science lots of, science lots of
Speaker 2: annals of fighting of wars of, coorts written by written
Speaker 2: by the, kings, uh. Horoscopes they were extremely they were
Speaker 2: both scientific. People they were also extremely uh. Superstitious you,
Speaker 2: know some of this stuff is some of this stuff
Speaker 2: is wildly this WHICH i didn't really know much, ABOUT i,
Speaker 2: mean anything about the what how how the whole idea of,
Speaker 2: exsicipacy you, KNOW i Think i'm pronouncing it, right which
Speaker 2: is reading the entrails of dead.
Speaker 1: She, yes, yes.
Speaker 2: Right this was given incredible prominence in the royal court Of,
Speaker 2: ashabanopal the most powerful king of The Syrian empire in
Speaker 2: the mid seventh CENTURY. BC i think his father and
Speaker 2: grandfather also uh subscribe to. This but they would uh
Speaker 2: king would be present and the, soothsayer the entrail reader
Speaker 2: would come. In questions would be whispered into the dead
Speaker 2: sheep's ear and then the entrails would be read to
Speaker 2: try to determine an answer.
Speaker 1: And may that's classic, divination you.
Speaker 2: Know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah and here this very, literate highly evolved society
Speaker 1: is using this form of, PROPHECY i guess and divination
Speaker 1: to live their daily. Lives so you got to wonder
Speaker 1: what the story is.
Speaker 2: There maybe that was just specifically for the. KING i
Speaker 2: don't think the king necessarily cared about you, know it
Speaker 2: was his really his own. Welfare well, no but some
Speaker 2: of this stuff was all about the you, know preserving
Speaker 2: the kingdom and how, to how, to but a lot
Speaker 2: of it was about his own, fate you.
Speaker 1: Know.
Speaker 2: Yeah and also the, uh you, know it wasn't just.
Speaker 2: EXTICIACY i, mean reading the, planets reading the, movement reading the,
Speaker 2: mood you, know the face of the, moon the, planets the.
Speaker 2: Stars this was all incorporated into this elaborate web of
Speaker 2: superstition that the king really these kings really subscribe. TO i,
Speaker 2: mean it seems like they spent much of their days
Speaker 2: consulting you, know fortune, tellers, astronomers astrologers to determine courses of.
Speaker 1: Action, yeah. Fascinating it seems in the book that you
Speaker 1: portray europe as excited about this, discovery and is there
Speaker 1: articles in the paper that are like weekly opinions or
Speaker 1: updates on what is happening in this. Discovery is this
Speaker 1: an area that you were able to kind of tap
Speaker 1: into for reference.
Speaker 2: Material british M The British library has a great collection
Speaker 2: of newspapers from the day and one of the most
Speaker 2: popular and WHY i find the most fasting forgiving a
Speaker 2: picture of life at that time was The victorian at
Speaker 2: the height Of Victorian empire was The Illustrated London. News
Speaker 2: Illustrated London news was like a broadsheet PUBLISHED i think
Speaker 2: first issue was in eighteen forty, two and it had
Speaker 2: before really before. Photography photography had just been. Invented but
Speaker 2: they they must have had this amazing staff of artists
Speaker 2: and they just did these incredible litho lithograph illustrations on
Speaker 2: pretty much every other, page amazing detail of you, know
Speaker 2: the coronation Of queen beerw, whatever of the visit Of
Speaker 2: Queen victoria to The Crystal Palace World's fair, exhibit just
Speaker 2: with you, know, everything with hundreds of people, everyone you,
Speaker 2: know finally drawn war, scenes The battle of you, know
Speaker 2: The Crimean. War this is WHERE i found the famous
Speaker 2: picture that's actually in the book of one of The,
Speaker 2: lamasus the winged, bulls or maybe it was a wing
Speaker 2: lion being brought up the stairs on a ramp at
Speaker 2: The British. MUSEUM i mean that thing weighs. Tons, yeah,
Speaker 2: Yeah so it was like they had seventeen horses carrying
Speaker 2: this thing through the streets Of london from the docks
Speaker 2: of near The tower Of, london brought it to the,
Speaker 2: museum constructed a ramp that carried the thing up the
Speaker 2: stairs into the down AND i think it went down
Speaker 2: to the, basement Which layered was very unhappy about because
Speaker 2: The British museum was not they were they were just
Speaker 2: grabbing so much stuff around the world that and bringing
Speaker 2: it back To london that The British museum wasn't able
Speaker 2: to keep up with the flow of good of, artifacts
Speaker 2: so they had to Stash layered stuff in a dimly
Speaker 2: lit basement, room which he really was unhappy about and
Speaker 2: complained quite bitterly. About but so this was a you,
Speaker 2: know a regular feature of The Illustrated London. News they
Speaker 2: were often reproducing pages and pages and reproductions of the
Speaker 2: the relics That laired was. FINDING i think The Black
Speaker 2: obelist first appeared or is in The Black obelists may
Speaker 2: have first appeared in the in the illustrated end the.
Speaker 2: News they weren't the only ones doing, it BUT i
Speaker 2: think it was like a very popular hit paper with
Speaker 2: about a circulation of one hundred thousand at the, time
Speaker 2: which is pretty.
Speaker 1: Good for you, know, yes ninth.
Speaker 2: Century there were other publications The, athenaeum, uh some OTHER
Speaker 2: i mean a bunch of popular magazines and then literary
Speaker 2: magazines that paid a lot of attention to hints and
Speaker 2: rollins and the, decipherment their speeches at The Royal Asiatic,
Speaker 2: society their reports. There you, know there was a lot of.
Speaker 1: Stuff were any of those illustrators With laird as they
Speaker 1: were excavating the, sites and, yeah.
Speaker 2: There's some, stuff there's some there's lots of excavation art as,
Speaker 2: well sketches as. Well they all Had laired went THROUGH
Speaker 2: i think three different illustrators who accompanied him into the
Speaker 2: couple of The actually one traveled with him From london
Speaker 2: on this really kind of difficult journey overland To assyria
Speaker 2: and was with him for some time as he was
Speaker 2: making these. Discoveries so there's some great material that shows
Speaker 2: the excavations in. Progress we're going to.
Speaker 1: Take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify,
Speaker 1: themselves and we will return shortly with my guest, Today
Speaker 1: Josh hammer discussing his let us release The Mesopotamian. Riddle
Speaker 1: will return with you. Shortly we're learning about the cuneiforms
Speaker 1: that when they were first discovered in the eighteen. Fifties
Speaker 1: just how the world perceived this, discovery really a lost
Speaker 1: civilization that comes to, light and the race to decipher
Speaker 1: exactly what they had. DISCOVERED i think one of the
Speaker 1: QUESTIONS i was thinking about WHEN i was reading about
Speaker 1: their Lives rawlingson And hicks and later is did they
Speaker 1: publish anything of fund outstanding regarding this? Work in other,
Speaker 1: words If, LAIRED i, mean are they publishing actual? Books?
Speaker 2: Oh? No, actually So laired was the popular.
Speaker 1: Author that's WHAT i. Thought he.
Speaker 2: Wrote he was a prolific, writer and he just churned out, letters,
Speaker 2: diaries several volumes of, memoirs the first of which Was
Speaker 2: the memoirs are, enthralling filled with, illustrations some of WHICH
Speaker 2: i think he did. Himself it seems like everybody in
Speaker 2: those days was like schooled and. DRAWING i don't quite you.
Speaker 2: KNOW i, Mean rawlinson too was quite a good. Artist
Speaker 2: he wrote these stumbled across these diaries that he had
Speaker 2: written for his kids years, later bringing back his days
Speaker 2: as a fighter In afghan warrior In afghanistan and at
Speaker 2: The British embassy In. Baghdad and he wrote with these
Speaker 2: the kind of nink drawings that were really quite, good
Speaker 2: and a couple of THEM i reproduced in the. Book so,
Speaker 2: YEAH i Mean layard was ABSOLUTELY i mean he was
Speaker 2: a popular. Writer his stuff sold tens of thousands of.
Speaker 2: Copies rawlinson did not, REALLY i, mean there is a
Speaker 2: biography Of, rolinson contemporary, biography but it's written by his.
Speaker 2: Brother so he never really did What lair did at.
Speaker 2: All there was there were short articles that he. Wrote
Speaker 2: there were very dense reports on the decipherment that he
Speaker 2: did for The Royal Asiatic. Society there were, letters but
Speaker 2: nothing like Like. Laird and the same goes For. Hanks
Speaker 2: he didn't REALLY i mean he wrote a lot of,
Speaker 2: letters but he didn't really tell a. Story But Leo
Speaker 2: hanks didn't have the kind of, piicresque you, know adventurous
Speaker 2: dramatic life that the other two guys.
Speaker 1: Did but you write very, Well, josh about these, individuals
Speaker 1: And i'm wondering did any one of them have a
Speaker 1: column in These british papers where they were paid to,
Speaker 1: write you, know their Expedition they did not want.
Speaker 2: Them pretty.
Speaker 1: Amazing let's talk a little bit about a city that's, fascinating.
Speaker 2: Whichcuse.
Speaker 1: Me, uh when it was uncovered and, excavated it was
Speaker 1: a pretty big, deal wasn't.
Speaker 2: It but it was, no it was never. Uncovered it
Speaker 2: was always, there per being The Persian king's you, know
Speaker 2: showcase a city in in what's Now iran and like Southern,
Speaker 2: iran that, PLACE i don't. KNOW i think because of
Speaker 2: its position in the in the in this, valley the,
Speaker 2: winds it was never climactic. Reasons it was never covered.
Speaker 2: Over so people have been writing About persepolis for two
Speaker 2: thousand years describing, it and it WAS i, mean it
Speaker 2: began to attract regular visitors From europe IN i mean
Speaker 2: the Ancient greeks showed up, there described, it people like,
Speaker 2: Uh Theodora, siculus some of These greek historians them two,
Speaker 2: three and then and then you had another wave like
Speaker 2: beginning around the sixteenth century of of, travelers diplomats from
Speaker 2: the wet from From europe coming to See, Persepolis so
Speaker 2: it never disappeared from view the meaning of the writing
Speaker 2: on the walls Of persepolis that was. Lost nobody knew
Speaker 2: what that. Was, uh that was the first writing that
Speaker 2: it was, deciphered and that's actually what led to the
Speaker 2: others being. Deciphered but it's it's it's not like it
Speaker 2: wasn't Like nineveh Or nimrod Or babylon in that which
Speaker 2: were basically just covered over by sand and these mounds
Speaker 2: formed around. Them and that's a very good. Question why is?
Speaker 2: That AND i don't have THE i don't have the
Speaker 2: answer Why persepolis was never? Lost but never does it.
Speaker 1: Come up in references that in the cuniform that the
Speaker 1: these researchers are passing, over you, know or is it
Speaker 1: thought of this myth in the eighteen.
Speaker 2: Fifties oh while you, talk are we talking about As
Speaker 2: assyria or? What, yeah the lost the lost cities Of. Assyria, Right,
Speaker 2: yeah it's like this gray, zone you, know it's like
Speaker 2: there's an there's enough documentation over the millennia handed, DOWN
Speaker 2: i mean Ancient greek travelers who would pass By mosil
Speaker 2: or along The tigris and see the ruins of a
Speaker 2: city right in about four hundred four HUNDRED, bc and
Speaker 2: then Another greek visitor like three hundred years later would, say, oh,
Speaker 2: well that, guy you know that that's. GONE i don't
Speaker 2: even see any remains of that city now it's just a.
Speaker 2: Mound and then over the, centuries you keep having these
Speaker 2: references to this in this. Mound and Then layer gets
Speaker 2: there in eighteen forty and he's like, utterly you, know
Speaker 2: he's he's basically like a back the equivalent of a
Speaker 2: backpacker making his way Across, asia you, know and he,
Speaker 2: just you, know he shows up at the mounds and
Speaker 2: he just sees, this and he's kind of he's utterly.
Speaker 2: Transfixed he's, like he's, like, well all the historians are
Speaker 2: telling us that this that there, was the greatest city
Speaker 2: of the ancient, world was right at this. Spot so
Speaker 2: there's this mound here and nobody's paying any attention to.
Speaker 2: IT i, see you, know every once in a while
Speaker 2: somebody would come up with a little fragment of. Cuniform
Speaker 2: but he was just sort of baffled and blown away
Speaker 2: and awed by the utter disappearance of any trace of
Speaker 2: a great. City so but he, assumed you, Know i'll,
Speaker 2: bet he, SAID i will bet that there. Is if
Speaker 2: we can get the resources together and begin, digging we
Speaker 2: will find we will find. Something he was utterly. Convinced
Speaker 2: and it's funny that nobody else had the same it
Speaker 2: really that happened in eighteen, forty so nobody had the,
Speaker 2: initiative curiosity whatever to do it before he. Did but he,
Speaker 2: schemed and you, know he didn't have any money at the.
Speaker 2: Time he was like twenty three years, old but he
Speaker 2: was a great you, know he was a great talker
Speaker 2: and a great. Operator and within five years he was back,
Speaker 2: there this time with some money from the turt from
Speaker 2: The british ambassador To Constantinople kubision of his own pocket
Speaker 2: and gave him enough to put together a diggy team
Speaker 2: and go to work and then the rest is.
Speaker 1: History. YEAH i love how you describe each of these main.
Speaker 1: Characters they're just really great. Writing was there any award
Speaker 1: given for the? DECIPHERMENT i, MEAN i. Don't typically in
Speaker 1: those days it was more recognition and then you'd get
Speaker 1: a scholarship and you'd be you, know part of a
Speaker 1: society or something like. That but were there awards given
Speaker 1: for all the work that was put into this decipher, man.
Speaker 2: You, KNOW i, Mean rawlinson was knighted and he was,
Speaker 2: praised and he was he received a lot OF i
Speaker 2: don't think there was any actually formal award given to.
Speaker 2: Him Steck to complained a little bit about that of
Speaker 2: some of his letters about The british government kind of
Speaker 2: snubbing him and not doing anything for. Him layard was
Speaker 2: feted and given various keys to the city and everything
Speaker 2: for his archaeological, discoveries And hanks was, ignored, basically even
Speaker 2: though a lot of people say that he was the
Speaker 2: guy who in this very intense rivalry between him And
Speaker 2: rawlinson for who who was could be considered the father
Speaker 2: of decipherment in canea. Form hanks pretty much now is
Speaker 2: recognized as the true father of, decipherment but he received
Speaker 2: no recognition in his, lifetime with the exception of a
Speaker 2: couple of, peers you, know close, colleagues fellow, philologists but
Speaker 2: nothing from the, government nothing from nothing, official.
Speaker 1: No university appointments at.
Speaker 2: All he wanted, this he desperately wanted. This he was
Speaker 2: kind of he was really kind of getting tired of
Speaker 2: being an anonymous churchman in this small, village in a
Speaker 2: small town in Northern, ireland and he felt for you,
Speaker 2: KNOW i mean a lot of people have this impression
Speaker 2: that he was just this sort of, shy reclusive character
Speaker 2: who didn't care about any international. RECOGNITION i, mean in,
Speaker 2: fact it was the actual. Opposite he really wanted to be.
Speaker 2: Famous he wanted to be, recognized and he hated the.
Speaker 2: Fact he Hated. Rawlinson you, know he hated That rawlinson
Speaker 2: was getting all the attention and he hated being like
Speaker 2: after a, while just stuck in. This. YEAH i mean
Speaker 2: he's a religious. Guy he. WAS i think he appreciate.
Speaker 2: You he appreciated and got great satisfaction out, of you,
Speaker 2: know his sermons and his tending to his, flock although
Speaker 2: that was also, controversial but, anyway you got into hot
Speaker 2: water with doing, that but not always very popular among his.
Speaker 2: Parishioners but, anyway but he also had. Aspirations he wanted
Speaker 2: to teach you at. University he kept asking People, layered you,
Speaker 2: know any one of his influential friends who were who Were,
Speaker 2: english to help get me a job At. Cambridge get
Speaker 2: it was like basically just straight. OVER i want a.
Speaker 2: JOB i want you To can you just like call
Speaker 2: your you, know get in touch with your friends on
Speaker 2: the trustees and get me a position they should have
Speaker 2: in a seriology position for. Me why can't you do?
Speaker 2: That and never. Happened it never, happened and he ended
Speaker 2: up you, know he did. WELL i, mean the saddest
Speaker 2: thing About hanks is that, eventually thanks To lair's, intervention
Speaker 2: he got himself a one year deal to translate to
Speaker 2: work at The British museum to translate The Black obelisk
Speaker 2: and other great. Artifacts and this isn't really this was
Speaker 2: like for him to pin at. Him you, know he
Speaker 2: had finally made, it and he trooped off To london
Speaker 2: and was given his position and went to work and
Speaker 2: then you, know translated voluminous amounts of, material put it
Speaker 2: all in, notebooks and then at the end of a
Speaker 2: year they fired him and snatched away his notebooks and
Speaker 2: basically just kicked him out of the. Museum and the
Speaker 2: theory never proven is that he believed That rawlinson had
Speaker 2: sabotaged him Because, rawlinson you, KNOW i really got into
Speaker 2: in the book THE i, MEAN i really tried to
Speaker 2: bring to life as much AS i, could the rivalry
Speaker 2: and the sort of the way these two got three guys,
Speaker 2: interacted BECAUSE i found that to be one of the
Speaker 2: most fascinating elements of this, story the person, did the
Speaker 2: different personalities and the competition and the way it played.
Speaker 2: Out And rawlinson probably sabotage takes because he was incredibly
Speaker 2: jealous and what you see it in the, letters like
Speaker 2: what is this clown? Doing you, know this pathetic Little irish,
Speaker 2: churchman who does he think he is coming into My
Speaker 2: british museum Where rowlinson had connections and influence and, power you,
Speaker 2: know and getting this job transcribing, my you, know my
Speaker 2: artifacts because he was he had been In baghdad for
Speaker 2: years And laired would ship him down these, artifacts first
Speaker 2: To baghdad Where laired would Where rawlinson would inspect them
Speaker 2: and then send them down To bostra to be shipped
Speaker 2: up to The British. Museum so he kind of, felt
Speaker 2: this is all my. STUFF i you, KNOW i shipped.
Speaker 2: IT i was a diplomat who arranged the transport of
Speaker 2: these delicate artifacts back To britain and now, hints you,
Speaker 2: know this puny irishman is in my. Place he hated
Speaker 2: it and so there's all sorts of evidence that he
Speaker 2: puts some pressure on his buddies at The British. Museum
Speaker 2: and not only did they And hanks after a year
Speaker 2: sent him packing back To, ireland which he never left,
Speaker 2: again but they also stole his notebooks and sent them
Speaker 2: To rowlinson to give him like a little heads up
Speaker 2: on how to you, know handle some of the more
Speaker 2: difficult cuneiform. Acipherment kind of. Treacherous it was Really hanks
Speaker 2: had quite a sad, yeah sad. Story but you, know,
Speaker 2: finally thanks to the revisionists looks being given by modern day,
Speaker 2: seriologists he's finally getting his, due you, know wait for.
Speaker 1: Him, yeah it's a great. Read the book we're talking
Speaker 1: about Is The Messicotanian. Riddle my guest today has Been Joshua.
Speaker 1: Hammer josh who is this book? FOR i, mean you
Speaker 1: wrote this last, Book timbuk, two that was A New
Speaker 1: York times. Bestseller it was so. Popular who are you writing?
Speaker 1: FOR i, think let's, say, so who would be interested in?
Speaker 1: This people who love ancient? History, yeah people who love decipherment.
Speaker 1: Stories people who, love you, know a dramatic, adventure BECAUSE
Speaker 1: i Mean liott layered story which is interwoven with his,
Speaker 1: cipherers is a great. ADVENTURE i, mean off the sky
Speaker 1: goes so the wilds Of asia in the eighteen, thirties you,
Speaker 1: know and it was like a just a totally, dangerous crazy,
Speaker 1: place and it doesn't get much better in the course
Speaker 1: of his ten years. There so there's you, know an
Speaker 1: outdoor adventure element to this. Story you, know it's just
Speaker 1: like a good. YARN i, MEAN i really tried, to.
Speaker 1: Didn't it didn't necessarily present itself immediately as a great,
Speaker 1: narrative but you, KNOW i THINK i found it in
Speaker 1: the course of researching. It SO i think although it's
Speaker 1: really for a lot of different people with a lot
Speaker 1: of different, interests it's very well, written very compelling and
Speaker 1: eye opening for that time of our. History just the
Speaker 1: brilliance of these men computers without artificial intelligence.
Speaker 2: Believable just to crack this is just.
Speaker 1: Fascinating josh give us some context to give us your
Speaker 1: website and how people can learn more about.
Speaker 2: You website, unfortunately due to my own, negligence has been,
Speaker 2: discontinued but you can google, Me Joshua. Hammer you can
Speaker 2: find me on The simon And schuster. Site you can
Speaker 2: just google me the name of the, book and you'll
Speaker 2: get voluminous amounts of material from you, know and in
Speaker 2: two weeks the reviews will start coming. In BUT i think, That,
Speaker 2: yeah The simon And, schuster my publisher, site has a
Speaker 2: really nice page where you'll find out a lot about,
Speaker 2: me a lot about my other, books and pretty, SOON
Speaker 2: i mean supposedly by. Now BUT i see it's still not.
Speaker 2: UP i did like A i shot a five minute
Speaker 2: video back In november about the. Book was that going
Speaker 2: to be on? YouTube it'll go to, YouTube, yeah but
Speaker 2: it should be initially on probably simultaneously on The it
Speaker 2: should be up by. NOW i keep asking, them where
Speaker 2: where's that? Video there? Was it was definitely supposed to
Speaker 2: be up by sort of toward the end Of. February
Speaker 2: but you, know they've gotten pretty sophisticated, Though simon and.
Speaker 2: SCHUSTERCER i did one for The Badass librarians that you can. See,
Speaker 2: yeah look see How i'd aged over the last eight.
Speaker 2: YEARS i did not do one for my last, One
Speaker 2: The Falcon. Thief but but they have uped it to
Speaker 2: like three different cameras and lots of. Editing so what
Speaker 2: are they calling?
Speaker 1: That josh are they calling that like a book preview
Speaker 1: on video or are you just kind of giving?
Speaker 2: Highlights they asked me a lot of Question it was
Speaker 2: done in a question and answered. Format oh, so and
Speaker 2: then they're, gonna you, KNOW i guess. Seamlessly one hopes
Speaker 2: edited to make it look, professional AND i think they
Speaker 2: are pretty professional over.
Speaker 1: There so, excellent Miss.
Speaker 2: Tam but, again keep looking. Forward it should be out
Speaker 2: in the day or. Two it's kind of a, summary you,
Speaker 2: KNOW i talk about well basically the same Stuff i've
Speaker 2: been talking to you, about but it compressed into about
Speaker 2: three three to five.
Speaker 1: Minutes, Fantastic, hey much success on this. BOOK i enjoyed.
Speaker 1: It i'm looking forward to finishing the. Work and you
Speaker 1: are just.
Speaker 2: Nonfiction it really. Happened it's the, real the real.
Speaker 1: McCoy, yeah it's. Fantastic thanks for joining. ME i appreciate.
Speaker 2: It thanks for having. ME i like your questions AND
Speaker 2: i like your curiosity about. This it's getting me fired.
Speaker 2: Up so about to go on a book tour in The,
Speaker 2: states so it's, great great getting me fired up about. It, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to get my mind around the fact
Speaker 1: that they were illustrating these, artifacts these field archaeological, digs
Speaker 1: excavations and the people around. Them you, know these characters
Speaker 1: That josh features in his book are. Illustrated there's no,
Speaker 1: photography and that's what they broadcast in their, papers SO i.
Speaker 1: CAN'T i, mean it's funny Because i'm an. Illustrator i'm
Speaker 1: a trained, illustrator and WHEN i used to see these
Speaker 1: guys that would scratch metal, plates it's amazing how gifted they.
Speaker 1: Were these, guys these artists are extremely gifted and able
Speaker 1: to reproduce a, scene create a, scene an illustrated scene
Speaker 1: that was transferred into a paper or a document or
Speaker 1: even a. Book we just don't do that. Anymore we're
Speaker 1: so reliant on our, cameras and of course now with
Speaker 1: these handheld iPhones or digital cell phones that have this
Speaker 1: camera built into. Them we take photographs for. EVERYTHING i,
Speaker 1: mean the DAY i WAS i, DELETED i must have
Speaker 1: deleted over two hundred photographs that were either duplicates OR
Speaker 1: i didn't think they were great or. Whatever it's very
Speaker 1: casual for. Us so, wow what a technological leap from
Speaker 1: scratching on metal, plates you, know lithograph and im pressing
Speaker 1: that into a piece of paper for an image to digital,
Speaker 1: images actual photographs of an an. Item it's just mind
Speaker 1: blowing where we've come. From and this is the eighteen.
Speaker 1: Fifties so, ANYHOW i hope you enjoyed that you get
Speaker 1: a sense of what's, happening if you, remember and if
Speaker 1: you want more information on, cuneiforms look up the podcast
Speaker 1: Where i'm Interviewing Irving, finkel Doctor finkel from The British.
Speaker 1: Museum he is a real great. Storyteller he tells the
Speaker 1: story of that the. Decipherment and, oh by the, Way
Speaker 1: josh mentioned that he had numerous conversations With finkel and
Speaker 1: his got his impression of just what happened during this.
Speaker 1: Period but you, know this is this is, amazing this is,
Speaker 1: fascinating and here you. Go now WHAT i really if
Speaker 1: we had more, TIME i wanted to ask him what
Speaker 1: he feels the placement of artificial, intelligences BECAUSE i keep
Speaker 1: hearing greater evidence of some of these archaeologists and, linguists
Speaker 1: perhaps Even assyrians as a seriologist using and programming artificial
Speaker 1: intelligence to you, know not only decipher, things but begin
Speaker 1: placing more emphasis on scripts and things like. That i'll
Speaker 1: tell You i'd love to see it with The maya
Speaker 1: because their language we have about ninety percent of, it
Speaker 1: but you, know we don't have as much as we
Speaker 1: have of The assyrians of The. Babylonians it's a great
Speaker 1: deal of. Fragmentation and remember we only have four books
Speaker 1: or what they call, codises and until we find more about,
Speaker 1: it we're completely guessing what the hell The maya were all.
Speaker 1: About And i'm writing about this and it's like really
Speaker 1: a challenge For mayanis archaeologists to figure out what the
Speaker 1: hell they were, thinking what their society was, about what
Speaker 1: their daily activities Get we have, Fragments we have. Fragments
Speaker 1: and what's even more, incredible and this has to. Happen you,
Speaker 1: know they use light r you, know five six years
Speaker 1: ago and found sixty thousand new untouched ruins In aigutamola,
Speaker 1: biasphere two hundred square mile scan series of scans uncovered
Speaker 1: these these, uh these. Ruins, now we just don't have
Speaker 1: the funds to go out and start digging and excavating those.
Speaker 1: Areas it's just it takes. Time and so, ANYHOW i,
Speaker 1: uh these ancient cultures are enigma And i'm wondering And
Speaker 1: i'm thinking that maybe artificial intelligence can really tighten the
Speaker 1: strings around understanding how these civilizations, functioned how they. Developed
Speaker 1: SO i hope you enjoyed. THAT I i enjoyed interacting With.
Speaker 1: Josh he was he was a lot of. Fun, hey
Speaker 1: if you're Enjoying Earth Ancient's destiny Or Earth Ancients Special
Speaker 1: Edition The, archives please consider becoming a Subscriber for as
Speaker 1: little as five. Bucks you can support the work we
Speaker 1: do here on these podcast and when you, subscribe we
Speaker 1: have a ton of gifts for. You the first thing
Speaker 1: we have is a ton of, books digital, books and you,
Speaker 1: know if you, want you can start your own. Library
Speaker 1: we have over thirty books from some of the best
Speaker 1: people out there talking about, ancient known and unknown civilizations
Speaker 1: from around the, world and that's part of the. Gift
Speaker 1: we all have some unpublished and, Interviews we have some.
Speaker 1: Galleries we got a lot of thank you gifts for.
Speaker 1: You so to, subscribe go To patreon AS P a
Speaker 1: T r E O n dot, Com forward Slash Earth
Speaker 1: ancients and just. Subscribe all you gotta do is give
Speaker 1: them YOUR atm or your credit. Card they take it.
Speaker 1: Out they deducted every month, five, ten, fifteen even twenty.
Speaker 1: Dollars makes a huge difference in our expenses and we
Speaker 1: really appreciate. It so go To patreon dot Com Forward
Speaker 1: Slash Earth. Ancients SO i want to thank the following
Speaker 1: people who have subscribed in the last thirty. DAYS i
Speaker 1: want to Thank Ian, nori Ben Terra, Blue Stephen eastman
Speaker 1: And Sandra. Win you guys are. AMAZING i want to
Speaker 1: thank you and you guys Rock patreon dot, Com Forward
Speaker 1: Slash Earth. Ancients all, right that's it for this. PROGRAM
Speaker 1: i want to think my guest Today Josh hammer and
Speaker 1: The Mesopotamian, riddle coming to us From, Berlin. Germany as
Speaker 1: always the team Of Gail, Tour Mark foster and everyone
Speaker 1: who makes this thing. Happen you guys, rock all, right
Speaker 1: take care of me well and we will talk to
Speaker 1: you next. Time the ague to.
Speaker 2: Begin, again and they amused to talk about and then.
Speaker 1: To the, area and they amused.
Speaker 2: Them became a.
Speaker 1: Fact and impact. Attention