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<v Speaker 1>Before we dive in, here's another show you can enjoy

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<v Speaker 1>in the True Story Fmfamily of Entertainment podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Meet and Zinnia.

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<v Speaker 3>You are being very poet to someone who is attempted

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<v Speaker 3>to quinos her wife's saffren.

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<v Speaker 4>You know I'm wildly, madly in love.

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<v Speaker 3>With you and their best friend Goldie Glad we didn't

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<v Speaker 3>miss all the fun. Swords in hand, they defend their

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<v Speaker 3>city from the worst of humanity. I Am Lord Buxton Blue,

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<v Speaker 3>What are you?

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<v Speaker 1>Electric Hair?

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<v Speaker 3>Virgil Walcot Vicious Suad follow their adventures on the Swashbuckling

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<v Speaker 3>Ladies Debate Society audio drama podcast, available now at true

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<v Speaker 3>story dot fm. Slash Swashbuckling, What's Up? Most Excellent Friends?

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<v Speaker 4>It's Christy and Nathan from the Most Excellent Eighties Movies Podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a podcast where a filmmaker and a comedian and.

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<v Speaker 4>Their most excellent guests adventure their way through the eighties

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<v Speaker 4>movies we think we love or might have missed with

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<v Speaker 4>our grown up eyes to see how they hold up.

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<v Speaker 4>Join us for delightful discussion, Eraligin recaps, ratings, and deep

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<v Speaker 4>cut recommendations.

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<v Speaker 1>Plus members get some extra fun chit chat with the

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<v Speaker 1>hosts after the show.

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<v Speaker 4>Download the Most Excellent Eighties Movies Podcast today at true

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<v Speaker 4>Story dot fm.

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<v Speaker 1>Or find it wherever the finest podcast are stored.

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<v Speaker 4>And do you remember to keep the Most Excellent Eighties

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<v Speaker 4>Movies podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Motto in mind?

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<v Speaker 1>Be excellent to each other and pardon.

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<v Speaker 5>Dudeudes, Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics.

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<v Speaker 5>Today we're talking about the movie I Saw the TV Glow.

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<v Speaker 5>It's an independent movie from a twenty four that uses

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<v Speaker 5>the idea of horror as a metaphor and allegory for

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<v Speaker 5>trans experience in some really powerful ways. That led us

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<v Speaker 5>to want to talk about trans representation in film and

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<v Speaker 5>the way this movie uses it as an allegory to

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<v Speaker 5>the way horror is used as a genre to talk

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<v Speaker 5>about the kind of things that we love here on

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<v Speaker 5>Superhero Ethics. And there's a whole wealth of other things

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<v Speaker 5>that all tie in to this movie.

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<v Speaker 6>And let me just.

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<v Speaker 5>Start by asking you, Riki, you saw this movie, you

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<v Speaker 5>recommended it to me, What was kind of your initial

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<v Speaker 5>take on this movie?

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<v Speaker 2>Amazing?

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<v Speaker 7>Just an amazing movie. And of course horror is my wheelhouse.

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<v Speaker 7>Anytime I can get you to watch a horror product,

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<v Speaker 7>I'm thrilled and This one is weird because you had

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<v Speaker 7>some trouble categorizing it to define it, and it does

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<v Speaker 7>get described as horror, but it doesn't feel like it,

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<v Speaker 7>Like once you watch it, it just doesn't feel like

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<v Speaker 7>a horror movie. And I'm the Wikipedia page describes it

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<v Speaker 7>as psychological horror. I think that's kind of a good fit.

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<v Speaker 7>But it doesn't do stuff in the traditional horror ways,

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<v Speaker 7>and I think that is also kind of a thing

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<v Speaker 7>in horror movies. Yeah, a lot of people think of

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<v Speaker 7>horror as just like slashers and like ghosts and stuff.

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<v Speaker 7>But even in those movies where it's just a quote

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<v Speaker 7>unquote typical slasher, there's a lot of commentary under the

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<v Speaker 7>surface if you pay attention to it, or if you

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<v Speaker 7>understand you know, like when the film was made and

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<v Speaker 7>what was going on in.

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<v Speaker 6>The world, right, And that's a big part of what

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<v Speaker 6>threw me with this movie.

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<v Speaker 5>And I want to say, I think a lot of

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<v Speaker 5>listeners probably have not seen this movie yet. It's not

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<v Speaker 5>been well talked about, although it's gotten a lot of

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<v Speaker 5>kind of indie discussion. I would highly recommend pausing this

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<v Speaker 5>pausing this pod. I would highly recommend pausing this podcast.

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<v Speaker 5>Finding it online. It's available a couple of different places

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<v Speaker 5>watching it and then coming back and listening. But if

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<v Speaker 5>you haven't, if you haven't seen it, I'm gonna give

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<v Speaker 5>just some brief overview of it, so you know what

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<v Speaker 5>we're talking about.

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<v Speaker 7>Uh.

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<v Speaker 5>It's a movie about two young people they start out

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<v Speaker 5>as a night I think thirteen and eleven and then

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<v Speaker 5>kind of the age throughout the movie, who become friends

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<v Speaker 5>in the nineties over their shared love of a TV

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<v Speaker 5>show called The pink O Pike, and The pink O

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<v Speaker 5>Pike is very much supposed to be a kind of

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<v Speaker 5>Buffy related show that they show scenes from it that

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<v Speaker 5>even use the exact same font and style for the

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<v Speaker 5>credits as they do in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And

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<v Speaker 5>the show the movie is a lot about like the

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<v Speaker 5>characters identifying with the characters in the show, and the

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<v Speaker 5>horror elements come in in terms of like questions of

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<v Speaker 5>like it is the show reality, are the characters in

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<v Speaker 5>the show?

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<v Speaker 6>Is the show in the characters? All this kind of stuff,

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<v Speaker 6>But what it.

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<v Speaker 5>Eventually builds to is that it is, in allegory, a

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<v Speaker 5>metaphor for the experience of being trans and of figuring

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<v Speaker 5>out that you are trans because the discussions about you know,

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<v Speaker 5>what is inside me and all this kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 5>It's very hard to explain because she's really got to

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<v Speaker 5>watch it, but it's basically leading up to the main

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<v Speaker 5>character coming to realize that she is trans, but that

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<v Speaker 5>she's been hiding that her entire life and hiding hiding

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<v Speaker 5>from it, and that the show has been this incredible

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<v Speaker 5>metaphor and a door into that. And that kind of

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<v Speaker 5>gets to where I got lost with this movie the

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<v Speaker 5>first time I watched it, and I've now watched a

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<v Speaker 5>second time, and I think this is one of the

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<v Speaker 5>greatest movies to rewatch because you pick up so much

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<v Speaker 5>more of the second time through. Going into this movie,

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<v Speaker 5>I knew very little about it. I knew that it

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<v Speaker 5>was connected to trans issues in some ways and queer issues,

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<v Speaker 5>and I knew that it was horror.

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<v Speaker 6>And I think you're right.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm someone for whom I grew up where horror was

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<v Speaker 5>Friday the Thirteenth and Nightmare on Elm Street and Halloween,

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<v Speaker 5>the slasher movies, and I've come to understand that horror

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<v Speaker 5>can be other things that there's you know, like get

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<v Speaker 5>Out and other directions like that. Still, to my mind,

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<v Speaker 5>in a horror movie, there's gonna be a scene where

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<v Speaker 5>the characters are running away from the monster, where there's

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<v Speaker 5>gonna be a fight scene, where there's going to be

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<v Speaker 5>a moment where you literally think the characters might be.

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<v Speaker 6>About to die. And this movie has none of that.

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<v Speaker 5>And I think because of that, I kind of missed

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<v Speaker 5>a lot the first time I was watching, because I

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<v Speaker 5>thought it was gonna be a movie about trans people.

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<v Speaker 6>Living in a horror movie.

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<v Speaker 5>And then right I thought it was gonna be about

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<v Speaker 5>trans people in a horror movie, and their transness was

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<v Speaker 5>going to be connected to things and gonna be some metaphors,

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<v Speaker 5>but it would still be kind of a traditional horror movie.

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<v Speaker 5>But at the end, as you said, what we realize

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<v Speaker 5>is that what it's instead doing is saying it's not

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<v Speaker 5>that kind of traditional horror movie. It's saying that the

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<v Speaker 5>experience of being trans and of possibly realizing that you

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<v Speaker 5>have been trans but have been hiding yourself, closeting yourself

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<v Speaker 5>your entire life, that that is in a self a

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<v Speaker 5>kind of horror. And I say that because the the

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<v Speaker 5>kind of final reveal of the movie is that Owen

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<v Speaker 5>has lived his entire life not accepting.

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<v Speaker 6>His transnists or her transness.

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<v Speaker 5>And I use this pronouns interchanging because the director and

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<v Speaker 5>the writer has done that as well. It's kind of

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<v Speaker 5>part of the point. We don't get to see the

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<v Speaker 5>character like post transition, but that the kind of real

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<v Speaker 5>horror is what if you have been living this melancholic,

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<v Speaker 5>empty existence of closetedness and so yeah, so it didn't

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<v Speaker 5>really line up with any.

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<v Speaker 6>Of my ideas of what horror was.

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<v Speaker 5>And I think I kind of because that went in

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<v Speaker 5>with the wrong framework, and I'm taking for you it

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<v Speaker 5>was kind of a very different experience.

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<v Speaker 7>Well, yeah, I want to start by addressing the pronoun

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<v Speaker 7>issue because in the movie they never use the word

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<v Speaker 7>trans right or or cis or I think ever mentioned gender.

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<v Speaker 7>They refer to Owen as you know, he him, and

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<v Speaker 7>there's never as you said, there's never a post transition.

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<v Speaker 7>So it's unclear like if you just watched the movie,

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<v Speaker 7>what you know, how you should refer to Owen. So

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<v Speaker 7>I will probably continue to refer to Owen as he

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<v Speaker 7>him throughout the discussion because that's how the character is

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<v Speaker 7>framed in the movie. There is this thing going on,

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<v Speaker 7>and I want to describe more in depth, like what

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<v Speaker 7>that trans allegory is.

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<v Speaker 2>So in the movie.

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<v Speaker 7>Within the movie, there's the TV show they watch, the

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<v Speaker 7>pink Opake, And in that show there's a villain called

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<v Speaker 7>mister Melancholy who captures the two protagonists of the TV

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<v Speaker 7>show in a place called the Midnight Realm. And it's

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<v Speaker 7>framed as like this different existence where they are kept

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<v Speaker 7>in kind of a suspended animation of melancholiness, and they

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<v Speaker 7>need to escape that to return to their real world.

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<v Speaker 7>And then what happens in the movie reality the reality

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<v Speaker 7>of the movie. The plot of the movie is that

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<v Speaker 7>Maddie disappears, Owen's best friend disappears for several years, and

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<v Speaker 7>then returns and says, Yo, we are the two characters

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<v Speaker 7>in the pink Opake. This the existence you think is

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<v Speaker 7>real right now is the Midnight Realm. I escaped, but

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<v Speaker 7>I came back to let you know, you got to

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<v Speaker 7>get out of here.

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<v Speaker 5>And important to this when Maddy comes back. Their presentation

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<v Speaker 5>in the young earlier part of the movie was cis female.

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<v Speaker 6>They do say.

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<v Speaker 5>That they like girls. You mentioned how they never much

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<v Speaker 5>word like trans. They also never say lesbian. They never

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<v Speaker 5>say ace, although Owen says that he just at one

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<v Speaker 5>point Mattie asks you like girls, he says, I don't

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<v Speaker 5>really know.

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<v Speaker 6>I like TV shows.

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<v Speaker 5>But when Maddy comes back, her gender identities is presented

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<v Speaker 5>much more androgynous, and she does he hasn't changed her name.

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<v Speaker 6>She ask me to pronouns, but clearly.

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<v Speaker 5>She has stepped outside of the realm of sis presentation.

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<v Speaker 6>So just with quick note, we're going yeah.

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<v Speaker 7>And in one of the flashbacks, there's like a brief

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<v Speaker 7>half a second shot of Justice Smith's character Owen, wearing

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<v Speaker 7>a dress, so like when they were watching the TV show,

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<v Speaker 7>presumably like they had like a sleepover and Owen put

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<v Speaker 7>on a dress, and that that is like the only

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<v Speaker 7>like clear visual hint right of kind of what's going on,

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<v Speaker 7>And of course, like we know more in our reality

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<v Speaker 7>because the writer, director Jane Schoenbrun, is trans and has

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<v Speaker 7>talked about this movie and about the issues around it.

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<v Speaker 7>So I just wanted it to be clear, like if

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<v Speaker 7>you just watch it and experience the movie and don't

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<v Speaker 7>get it, like that's that's fine, Like that's not what

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<v Speaker 7>the movie is trying to do. And I think that

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<v Speaker 7>is one of the most powerful things about it is

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<v Speaker 7>that a lot of people will get upset about movies that, like,

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<v Speaker 7>you know, shove a topic.

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<v Speaker 2>Down your throat. This doesn't do that at all.

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<v Speaker 7>And in fact, like if you can watch it and

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<v Speaker 7>just like not understand or know at all what's going on,

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<v Speaker 7>but if you do know, as you said, like on

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<v Speaker 7>a second viewing it, just like everything opens up. You're like, oh, oh.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, And I will say, and this is not a

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<v Speaker 5>critique all. I think this is just our two different perspectives.

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<v Speaker 5>I think I picked up on a lot of the

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<v Speaker 5>transnists in that first watch in a way that I

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<v Speaker 5>think a lot of folks don't. And because similar how

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<v Speaker 5>like when you and I watch anime, sometimes there are

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<v Speaker 5>things you point out that I don't see because I

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<v Speaker 5>don't have that cultural context.

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<v Speaker 6>And I'm doing a lot of research about this.

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<v Speaker 5>I've seen a lot of this kind of breakdown of

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<v Speaker 5>CIS folks saying not by all means on either side

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<v Speaker 5>of this, but like SIS folks saying like, yeah, I

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<v Speaker 5>didn't really get that it was about transnist till the

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<v Speaker 5>very end until I read more about it or something

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<v Speaker 5>like that, and trans folks saying like, oh no, like

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<v Speaker 5>that part I could tell from the very beginning and

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<v Speaker 5>you're right, because there's a lot of little cues like that.

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<v Speaker 5>There's the Owen wearing a dress and Maddie looking on

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<v Speaker 5>very kind of supportively is one of the biggest ones.

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<v Speaker 5>But then there's just little things of like oh, and

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<v Speaker 5>being differentiated from his father, in part because you know,

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<v Speaker 5>when Owen brings up that he likes the show, the

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<v Speaker 5>father's saying.

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<v Speaker 6>Oh, isn't that a show for girls? You know?

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<v Speaker 5>And him having this very close relationship with his mother

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<v Speaker 5>but not with his father, not with his father. And

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<v Speaker 5>one thing I think that becomes really important is and

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<v Speaker 5>here I am curious, and I'd love to hear from

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<v Speaker 5>younger listeners if you've noticed this. Nostalgia is a very

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<v Speaker 5>important part of this movie. As I said, it's very

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<v Speaker 5>Buffy referential. And I came of age and came to

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<v Speaker 5>realize my sexuality. I realized I was bisexual when I

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<v Speaker 5>was in high school, and I thought I might be trans.

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<v Speaker 5>I wasn't sure and only came to understand that I

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<v Speaker 5>was non binary much much later. Part of that's because

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<v Speaker 5>we didn't have the word non binary in the nineties

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<v Speaker 5>when this TV show is set, at least the original

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<v Speaker 5>parts of it. It may have been talked about in

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<v Speaker 5>some small circles or among something, but certainly the parts

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<v Speaker 5>of queerness that were coming down to high school and

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<v Speaker 5>college me, that wasn't a word anyone.

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<v Speaker 6>Was talking about.

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<v Speaker 5>Asexuality was a word that was barely being talked about.

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<v Speaker 5>And I went to a pretty liberal progressive high school

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<v Speaker 5>and my friends were mostly from liberal progressive families. But

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<v Speaker 5>even there, like there were books that we had about

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<v Speaker 5>being trans about being queer that I remember, like friends

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<v Speaker 5>passing them to each other in paper bags because we

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<v Speaker 5>didn't want the teacher to see them, and other kinds

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<v Speaker 5>of like this this idea of secrecy being a part

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<v Speaker 5>of it.

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<v Speaker 6>And this movie does something really brilliant where.

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<v Speaker 5>For a long time Owen isn't for his entire childhood,

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<v Speaker 5>Owen isn't allowed to watch the movie by his parents.

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<v Speaker 5>He has and so Maddy has to give him the

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<v Speaker 5>videotapes in secret, which by the way, is also a

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<v Speaker 5>whole nostalgia thing of like, you know, now, we're just

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<v Speaker 5>so used to like oh yeah, and even can go

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<v Speaker 5>find a show and like just erase your search history

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<v Speaker 5>when your parents aren't looking like whatever. But the idea

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<v Speaker 5>that like you had to get VHS tapes to watch

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<v Speaker 5>a show because it was hard to find and someone.

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<v Speaker 6>Had to give it to you in secret. It just

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<v Speaker 6>it hits so much of my.

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<v Speaker 5>Nostalgia of being a young queer kid in the nineties,

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<v Speaker 5>and I think that's very, very intentional.

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<v Speaker 7>And the nostalgia part also plays into the plot going on,

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<v Speaker 7>because in his adult life, Owen rewatches The pink Opake,

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<v Speaker 7>like on a streaming service and it's different, like literally

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<v Speaker 7>we are shown a scene that he watched as a

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<v Speaker 7>kid that is different, like the character is portrayed differently,

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<v Speaker 7>and that is to a kind of tap into that

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<v Speaker 7>nostalgia of like the show that we liked as kids

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00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:04.799
<v Speaker 7>maybe aren't quite as good or in this case as scary,

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<v Speaker 7>like the original portrayal of the villain was much scarier,

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<v Speaker 7>and then the streaming version it's kind of comical and

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<v Speaker 7>it's like, oh, yeah, like this is much worse.

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<v Speaker 2>Than I remember. But it is also playing off.

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<v Speaker 7>Of the reality of the movie of being trapped in

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<v Speaker 7>the midnight realm and literally like reality being changed and

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<v Speaker 7>alternate for Owen.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, And I think that's a great example because this

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<v Speaker 5>first time I was watching it, I got stuck on

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<v Speaker 5>the this is an actual horror thing happening. So I

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<v Speaker 5>was thinking, like, is the idea that something supernaturally changed

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<v Speaker 5>this on streaming services or is this a secret government conspiracy?

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<v Speaker 5>Like I was thinking in those terms instead of recognizing

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<v Speaker 5>this is all metaphor.

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<v Speaker 6>And I'm wondering, I'm.

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<v Speaker 5>Maybe looking too deep into this, but I'm wondering if

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<v Speaker 5>you thought this as well. It's not just a Buffy standoff,

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00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:02.960
<v Speaker 5>but there's clear, very clear Buffy references in the way

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00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:06.399
<v Speaker 5>that whole show plays out, the pink O pake. And

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00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:09.600
<v Speaker 5>one of the things that's happened with Buffy and with

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00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:12.559
<v Speaker 5>Buffy fandom is that obviously we've learned a lot of

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00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:15.639
<v Speaker 5>things about Joss Whedon that are pretty terrible and that has,

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00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:19.039
<v Speaker 5>you know, affected the way a lot of people think

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<v Speaker 5>of this show a show that was incredibly formative and

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00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:24.679
<v Speaker 5>stuff like that. And some folks have talked about like

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<v Speaker 5>they can still watch and enjoy the show and just

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00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.000
<v Speaker 5>separate that, and some people say that they go back

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00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.000
<v Speaker 5>and watch the show and it feels like it's not

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00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:34.759
<v Speaker 5>the same show because now they're seeing things like in

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00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:37.159
<v Speaker 5>Xander's character that kind of are like, oh, yeah, look,

318
00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:39.559
<v Speaker 5>this is much more sexism in the show than we

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00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:43.480
<v Speaker 5>thought there was. Do you think that that the rewatch

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00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:44.799
<v Speaker 5>of pink O Pake is meant to be in some

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00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:47.360
<v Speaker 5>way also a metaphor of that of the idea of

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00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.519
<v Speaker 5>that growing older and learning more about the creators of

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00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:53.039
<v Speaker 5>a show when one of our problems like that can

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00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:55.799
<v Speaker 5>can make the thing you watched as a kid feel

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00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:56.399
<v Speaker 5>a lot different.

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<v Speaker 7>I don't believe so, because there's no there's no mention

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00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.759
<v Speaker 7>in the story in the movie story of the creator

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00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:09.920
<v Speaker 7>of the TV show, Like there's some credits are flashed

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00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:12.319
<v Speaker 7>on the screen, but the Maddie and Owen never talk

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00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:15.000
<v Speaker 7>about the creators of the show. They just talk about

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<v Speaker 7>the plot of the show and what's going on. So

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<v Speaker 7>I don't think that is part of it. And of course,

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<v Speaker 7>like I agree that the especially the font is like

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00:17:24.039 --> 00:17:28.960
<v Speaker 7>the biggest that is like the same font as the

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00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.359
<v Speaker 7>Buffy credits. But I think like the show is also

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00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:38.079
<v Speaker 7>tapping into stuff like goose bumps and uh, there was

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00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:40.519
<v Speaker 7>another one I can't remember off the top of my head,

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00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:44.599
<v Speaker 7>but like these kids TV horror shows and the idea

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00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:47.920
<v Speaker 7>of like how scary they are to kids and then

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00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:51.079
<v Speaker 7>as adults you, like I said, you you watch them

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00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:54.400
<v Speaker 7>and it's like, oh, that's just that's comically bad, Like

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00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:58.839
<v Speaker 7>that makeup is bad. Like Goosebumps, the original Goosebumps.

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<v Speaker 2>Is really bad if you watch it. Unfortunately.

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<v Speaker 6>That's very fair.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I think another part of the nostalgia thing is

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<v Speaker 5>that there's also the sense of the unreliable narrator, because

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<v Speaker 5>in a lot of ways, Owen is very clearly the narrator,

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00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:19.079
<v Speaker 5>and there's fourth wall breaks, like he will just look

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00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:22.119
<v Speaker 5>directly at the camera and tell you the kind of

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00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:24.920
<v Speaker 5>things that might otherwise be in a voiceover, where your

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<v Speaker 5>a sense of like maybe this isn't a book someone

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00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:28.160
<v Speaker 5>else is reading, Like no, he.

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00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:29.160
<v Speaker 6>Just talks to the TV.

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<v Speaker 5>What we clearly learn that he's not always telling the

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<v Speaker 5>full story because, like you mentioned that, we get shots

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<v Speaker 5>of Owen in a pink dress, and I think it's

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<v Speaker 5>a pink dress very similar to one that Isabelle, who's

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<v Speaker 5>the kind of shyer, less comfortable accepting what they are character.

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00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.000
<v Speaker 5>And it's also the Black Girl and the Tube Girls,

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<v Speaker 5>and Owen is black and Maddie's white. So I think

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<v Speaker 5>it's really set up that Owen sees himself as Maddie.

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<v Speaker 5>Owen sees himself as Isabelle, and Maddie sees herself as

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<v Speaker 5>Nora Tara Tarah. Sorry, yeah, I was like, is it

364
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.960
<v Speaker 5>terror because that's a more specific before your reference, But no,

365
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:09.079
<v Speaker 5>you're right, it is Tara what. And so the point

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<v Speaker 5>of all that being that the dress is similar to

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<v Speaker 5>one that Isabelle wears, but in Owen's if, like the

368
00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:19.279
<v Speaker 5>first half of the movie is all Owen telling us

369
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<v Speaker 5>and Owen walking us through the flashbacks, we never get that.

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00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:27.480
<v Speaker 5>We get these scenes of Owen wearing the dress while

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<v Speaker 5>Maddie is like kind of looking on affirmingly and kind

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<v Speaker 5>of at one point like I smiles, like with a

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<v Speaker 5>very like this is wonderful look, when Maddie is kind

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<v Speaker 5>of saying, hey, do you remember this? And to me,

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<v Speaker 5>that's another idea of the nostalgia, of how not even nostalgia,

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00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.640
<v Speaker 5>but memory that we can we don't want to remember things.

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00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:48.000
<v Speaker 5>We're very good at not remembering them, especially when it's

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<v Speaker 5>like I don't want to remember that thing that might

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<v Speaker 5>tell me I'm the kind of person I don't want

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00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:54.599
<v Speaker 5>to be. And so the fact that it's only in

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<v Speaker 5>Maddie's memory that we get to see Owen in the

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00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:59.119
<v Speaker 5>pink dress, and we get this very different kind of

383
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<v Speaker 5>picture of what it was like the two of them

384
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<v Speaker 5>watching the show together.

385
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.119
<v Speaker 6>I thought was very intentional and very powerful.

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00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:10.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he mentioned real quick.

387
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:14.880
<v Speaker 7>Tara from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the character, the lesbian

388
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:19.279
<v Speaker 7>character who's in a relationship with Willow. There's actually Amber Benson,

389
00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:23.559
<v Speaker 7>the actress who played Tara is in this movie as

390
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<v Speaker 7>the mom of Owen's friend who he tells his parents

391
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:30.599
<v Speaker 7>he's going to his friend's house when he's.

392
00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:31.400
<v Speaker 2>Going to Maddie's house.

393
00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:35.160
<v Speaker 7>Right, there's the scene where he kind of gives up,

394
00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:39.440
<v Speaker 7>I guess and tells Amber Benson's character, I don't think

395
00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:43.000
<v Speaker 7>her name is given, tells her, I've been lying to

396
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:45.880
<v Speaker 7>my parents. I need you to tell them, basically, like

397
00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:49.839
<v Speaker 7>to ground him forcing himself to not be able to

398
00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:52.480
<v Speaker 7>go to Maddie's house to watch the pink Opake as

399
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:53.799
<v Speaker 7>part of like his denial.

400
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:57.319
<v Speaker 5>Well it's specific because she's about to run away and

401
00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:59.400
<v Speaker 5>she wants him to come with her, and that's when

402
00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:01.759
<v Speaker 5>he's like, no, you got to do this. And that

403
00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:04.440
<v Speaker 5>felt really appropriate to me because I do think part

404
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:08.400
<v Speaker 5>of his whole story and again, this really fits into

405
00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:12.400
<v Speaker 5>the whole metaphor is his idea of like, living outside

406
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.200
<v Speaker 5>the rules is dangerous, that the rules.

407
00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:16.519
<v Speaker 6>Will keep me safe.

408
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:19.240
<v Speaker 5>And it makes sense because he has a very overprotective

409
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:23.119
<v Speaker 5>mother and parents, to the point where even in high

410
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:26.680
<v Speaker 5>school he has a ten thirty bedtime, which Maddie points

411
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:29.240
<v Speaker 5>out it's kind of ridiculous for a high school student.

412
00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:32.039
<v Speaker 5>And you know that he's not allowed to watch the

413
00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:33.799
<v Speaker 5>show and he has to know all these things in secret,

414
00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:37.119
<v Speaker 5>and you know, so the idea that he would like

415
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:39.200
<v Speaker 5>both want to kind of push against those rules but

416
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.079
<v Speaker 5>also really reject them, and that a lot of what

417
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:44.279
<v Speaker 5>the story is about is that Maddie has broken out.

418
00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:47.799
<v Speaker 5>Maddie has been able to live her life and because

419
00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:51.400
<v Speaker 5>again we don't, Maddie comes back presenting in a very

420
00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:54.279
<v Speaker 5>different way gender wise, but still is using female pronouns

421
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:58.359
<v Speaker 5>and using the name Maddie, but still is clearly not

422
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:02.440
<v Speaker 5>living the life that has been for them, whereas Owen

423
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:05.160
<v Speaker 5>really is. It's not just that he's living a life

424
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:09.559
<v Speaker 5>prescribed for that by his parents. He's living his parents' life.

425
00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:13.720
<v Speaker 5>He inherits his father's house, he inherits his father's you know, stuff,

426
00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:16.119
<v Speaker 5>and he lives a life it's very much like what

427
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:18.359
<v Speaker 5>his father would have wanted for him, well, or at

428
00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:20.759
<v Speaker 5>least what his father did of going to a kind

429
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:23.200
<v Speaker 5>of nowhere job and coming home and having this very

430
00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:24.400
<v Speaker 5>kind of empty existence.

431
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:30.680
<v Speaker 7>Father played by Fred Durst, by the way, hilarious, Not quite,

432
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:32.119
<v Speaker 7>I guess, as cameo, I don't know.

433
00:22:32.200 --> 00:22:35.359
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what he's been up to. Yeah, Branch

434
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:36.440
<v Speaker 2>added some acting.

435
00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:38.640
<v Speaker 5>I only know if like I think he was the

436
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:41.119
<v Speaker 5>lead singer of some band, Like I only know of

437
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:45.039
<v Speaker 5>him because he mentioned an eminem song in a pretty

438
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:45.640
<v Speaker 5>sexist way.

439
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:50.240
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, he was the lead singer of Limp Biscuit.

440
00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:52.400
<v Speaker 6>That's it. Okay, that's it.

441
00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:53.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

442
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:56.279
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, but you again kind of feeding into the nineties

443
00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:57.519
<v Speaker 5>nostalgia in a cool way.

444
00:22:57.839 --> 00:22:59.160
<v Speaker 6>Nineties two thousands nostalgia.

445
00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:04.480
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, tangent sidebar it every time, like one of those

446
00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:09.160
<v Speaker 7>actors or actresses from my youth is like a parent

447
00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:10.079
<v Speaker 7>in a movie.

448
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:13.279
<v Speaker 2>I dialetle on the inside.

449
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:16.920
<v Speaker 5>You know when my teen crush Winona Ryder was the

450
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:19.839
<v Speaker 5>parent in Stranger Things, Yeah, exactly.

451
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:20.960
<v Speaker 6>It did a lot, did a lot.

452
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:26.039
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, No, I totally get it, though, and I think

453
00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:28.480
<v Speaker 5>it's part of what Well, let me just ask you,

454
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.880
<v Speaker 5>as someone who's not in the trans community, but clearly

455
00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:34.839
<v Speaker 5>I know, like trans writes and stuff like that are

456
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:38.319
<v Speaker 5>very important to you, even part of the Magic Judge community, uh,

457
00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:40.920
<v Speaker 5>which you know, in which there's a lot of trans folks.

458
00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:45.319
<v Speaker 5>What what I'm curious kind of how you viewed those

459
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:47.920
<v Speaker 5>What were the things that you were picking up on

460
00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:49.960
<v Speaker 5>that kind of were signaling that or you know, however

461
00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:51.559
<v Speaker 5>you want to approach that question. I'm kind of curious.

462
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:53.799
<v Speaker 5>I've talked a lot about my perspective from someone inside

463
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:56.160
<v Speaker 5>those worlds. I'd love to hear more about your perspective.

464
00:23:57.759 --> 00:23:57.960
<v Speaker 6>Well.

465
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:02.960
<v Speaker 7>I knew going into watching the movie because I this

466
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:06.640
<v Speaker 7>movie was on my radar because I pay attention to

467
00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:10.759
<v Speaker 7>a lot of horror adjacent news and content creators who

468
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:11.640
<v Speaker 7>talk about horror.

469
00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:12.640
<v Speaker 2>So I knew going in.

470
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:14.920
<v Speaker 7>I was like, Okay, like I definitely want to watch this,

471
00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:22.119
<v Speaker 7>and so I was looking at everything through that lens,

472
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:26.759
<v Speaker 7>and I mean, it makes sense to me, it doesn't,

473
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:29.440
<v Speaker 7>you know, because I am sis, I'm sis male. It

474
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:32.720
<v Speaker 7>didn't speak to me in the same way, but I

475
00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:37.359
<v Speaker 7>understand what's going on, and it's It's been described as

476
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:42.359
<v Speaker 7>like egg cinema, these kind of movies where it allows

477
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:47.880
<v Speaker 7>a trans person to maybe realize what's going on in

478
00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:50.079
<v Speaker 7>their life, like a young person or even an older

479
00:24:50.119 --> 00:24:52.759
<v Speaker 7>transferson who's like, I never thought about gender in this

480
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:55.720
<v Speaker 7>way or about my identity in this way, that it

481
00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:58.000
<v Speaker 7>could be different, And.

482
00:24:58.039 --> 00:24:59.960
<v Speaker 5>Just to clarify for those who don't know, egg is

483
00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.960
<v Speaker 5>a metaphor that's often used within trans communities.

484
00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:06.200
<v Speaker 6>Of that like discovering who you are and letting.

485
00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:08.720
<v Speaker 5>That out is cracking the egg, and that people kind

486
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:10.799
<v Speaker 5>of look it back and be like, oh, yeah, that

487
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:12.680
<v Speaker 5>moment five years ago where I kind of like really

488
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:14.799
<v Speaker 5>loved my friend's dress that was kind of one of

489
00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:16.519
<v Speaker 5>the first cracks in my egg, et cetera.

490
00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:21.680
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, and it and this movie I think follows in

491
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:24.799
<v Speaker 7>a tradition that in some ways goes back to like

492
00:25:24.839 --> 00:25:27.079
<v Speaker 7>The Matrix. Of course I could be farther back, but

493
00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:30.640
<v Speaker 7>The Matrix is often cited as that type of egg

494
00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:34.160
<v Speaker 7>cinema because, of course, now we understand that the Wachowskis

495
00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:38.039
<v Speaker 7>are trans and they were presenting as male at the

496
00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:39.960
<v Speaker 7>time I've transitioned to female.

497
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:40.559
<v Speaker 8>And.

498
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.720
<v Speaker 7>That you know that in that movie, it's literally like

499
00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:51.240
<v Speaker 7>you are in a reality, computer generated reality and then

500
00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:53.440
<v Speaker 7>escape to the real world. So It's like the same thing, right,

501
00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:56.720
<v Speaker 7>the escape from one reality into the real one. So

502
00:25:56.799 --> 00:25:59.640
<v Speaker 7>Maddie in this movie, I saw a TV glow has

503
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:02.920
<v Speaker 7>a scape from the Midnight realm, which is their their matrix,

504
00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:06.599
<v Speaker 7>their prison, and then comes back and tells, Ohen, look,

505
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:07.559
<v Speaker 7>you got to get out of here.

506
00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:11.440
<v Speaker 2>This isn't real you you are going to die in here.

507
00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:18.960
<v Speaker 7>In fact, and that especially, there's a scene shown where Isabelle,

508
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:25.960
<v Speaker 7>right Matt Owen's kind of pink Opake persona is being

509
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:30.119
<v Speaker 7>buried alive, and I think like dirt is literally being

510
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:33.880
<v Speaker 7>thrown on her body by the by the villains, and

511
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:38.079
<v Speaker 7>Owen in his reality suffers from asthma and as he

512
00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:42.839
<v Speaker 7>gets older, has more and more trouble breathing. Right, So

513
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:47.240
<v Speaker 7>it's this like the two realities are paralleling to like, oh,

514
00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:50.039
<v Speaker 7>that's what's going on, right, And and that's what I

515
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:52.519
<v Speaker 7>said earlier, is that you can understand it as just

516
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:57.160
<v Speaker 7>Owen is trapped. And even though yeah, like the pink

517
00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:03.039
<v Speaker 7>Opake character is female, I didn't necessarily you know, if

518
00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:05.960
<v Speaker 7>I hadn't known going in, I wouldn't have thought about

519
00:27:05.960 --> 00:27:10.000
<v Speaker 7>it as a trans experience, yeah, and more of just

520
00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:13.160
<v Speaker 7>like a matrix, like escaping your reality. But of course,

521
00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:15.559
<v Speaker 7>like if you are trans or if you are like

522
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:18.680
<v Speaker 7>thinking about those issues, it hits right. And I think

523
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:22.599
<v Speaker 7>that's that's what makes this so powerful, is that it

524
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:26.160
<v Speaker 7>can be accessible to different audiences.

525
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:29.839
<v Speaker 5>I think that's really true, and I think that's you know,

526
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:32.160
<v Speaker 5>I like things that are more clear and direct and

527
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:33.759
<v Speaker 5>hit you over the head. But I also think that

528
00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:36.119
<v Speaker 5>you're right, there's a real need for stories like this,

529
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:39.920
<v Speaker 5>especially where it's a story that it does speak so

530
00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:42.799
<v Speaker 5>much to people who are within the experience, but also

531
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:46.920
<v Speaker 5>not in a way that is alienating or pushing away

532
00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:49.680
<v Speaker 5>anyone who isn't necessarily, And I'm to say, like, I

533
00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:51.480
<v Speaker 5>think there's some stuff that should be so trans that

534
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:54.079
<v Speaker 5>it alienates anyone who's not. And that's fantastic and so

535
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:56.440
<v Speaker 5>black or so female or so Asian, like whatever the

536
00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:59.480
<v Speaker 5>experience is. I'm not saying everything should be made for

537
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:00.839
<v Speaker 5>the majority.

538
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:04.079
<v Speaker 7>Well, the thing that happens in the movie, right Owen

539
00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:06.759
<v Speaker 7>has to like sneak around and watch the pink O

540
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:10.480
<v Speaker 7>pig because he doesn't want his parents to know like that,

541
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:15.119
<v Speaker 7>I think that experience in our real world is what

542
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:19.480
<v Speaker 7>the creator is trying to avoid, Like creating this movie

543
00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:22.480
<v Speaker 7>that you can watch and yeah, like if you listen

544
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:24.240
<v Speaker 7>to the people talk about it, you know, and you

545
00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:28.960
<v Speaker 7>understand what it's about. But I think like it's it's

546
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:33.000
<v Speaker 7>not the kind of movie who knows these days, but

547
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:35.960
<v Speaker 7>it's not the kind of movie, in my opinion, like

548
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:38.599
<v Speaker 7>gets banned or like parents go out and they.

549
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:39.680
<v Speaker 2>Like protest and stuff.

550
00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:42.559
<v Speaker 7>Because again, like they never use the word trans Like

551
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:45.680
<v Speaker 7>there's a there's like a half second of Owen I

552
00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:47.880
<v Speaker 7>wearing a dress, and.

553
00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:51.519
<v Speaker 5>There's like three or four long shots of it, but yeah, right,

554
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:53.119
<v Speaker 5>it's pretty pretty short.

555
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:57.920
<v Speaker 7>And there's like the the idea of his character in

556
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:01.480
<v Speaker 7>the pink O Pike being female, but again, like that

557
00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:04.039
<v Speaker 7>is something I think that is a way that these

558
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:10.079
<v Speaker 7>movies have been able to talk about these issues is

559
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:14.759
<v Speaker 7>through like a supernatural or scientific like gender swap.

560
00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:18.279
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, like this feels like the kind of movie that

561
00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:22.680
<v Speaker 5>a fifteen year old in a very you know, conservative

562
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:25.519
<v Speaker 5>household wouldn't have, wouldn't have to hide in their church

563
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:26.319
<v Speaker 5>history necessarily.

564
00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:30.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly might. And and the thing is like it's

565
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:32.680
<v Speaker 2>not that media like.

566
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:36.599
<v Speaker 7>This doesn't turn people trans right or turn people gay

567
00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:41.119
<v Speaker 7>or whatever. Like that is such a terrible concept. Because

568
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:45.279
<v Speaker 7>you can watch this and like understand, like, oh, appreciate

569
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:47.920
<v Speaker 7>that this is about a trans experience and say, okay,

570
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:51.000
<v Speaker 7>I understand that I like it. I like what I'm seeing,

571
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:53.359
<v Speaker 7>but that's not me, Like that's how I felt like.

572
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:57.240
<v Speaker 7>I you know, I've thought about it in my life,

573
00:29:57.319 --> 00:30:00.119
<v Speaker 7>in my lifetime because like, for example, when I when

574
00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:03.759
<v Speaker 7>as a kid video games, I would often play female.

575
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Characters, right, yeah, to do a different thing.

576
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:10.160
<v Speaker 7>And for some people that can be kind of a

577
00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:13.160
<v Speaker 7>window into your self identity and it can be like

578
00:30:13.240 --> 00:30:17.480
<v Speaker 7>the first beginnings of questioning your gender. It wasn't for me,

579
00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:23.559
<v Speaker 7>but like those kinds of things I think are important.

580
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:25.480
<v Speaker 5>Well and as well, Like I'm a very careful I'm

581
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:28.839
<v Speaker 5>not speaking for you, but in general, I think it's

582
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:30.640
<v Speaker 5>very possible for people, and I think this is a

583
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:34.279
<v Speaker 5>good and healthy thing for people to question their gender

584
00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:38.079
<v Speaker 5>and come to the answer that there sys Like to me,

585
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:41.240
<v Speaker 5>that's very different than just never questioning it and taking

586
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:45.119
<v Speaker 5>his default. And I really I think it's a great

587
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:47.079
<v Speaker 5>time to really talk about kind of the monster the

588
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:49.480
<v Speaker 5>horror of this movie because it's so tied into what

589
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:52.680
<v Speaker 5>you're talking about, and I think it's very intentional. This

590
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:57.079
<v Speaker 5>movie is made at a time when, especially just in

591
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:59.000
<v Speaker 5>the last few days with our government, but really for

592
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:02.799
<v Speaker 5>the last couple of years, trans people are being painted

593
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:07.039
<v Speaker 5>as monsters. Transnists is being painted as this horror, as

594
00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:10.519
<v Speaker 5>this gender ideology that is attacking our country and our

595
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:13.000
<v Speaker 5>schools and our kids and all this kind of like

596
00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:17.160
<v Speaker 5>you know, I mean, utter nonsense. You know, clearly like

597
00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:21.519
<v Speaker 5>transnists is biologically and scientifically supported as just realistic facts

598
00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:24.680
<v Speaker 5>of life. The gender ideology is hating those things. But

599
00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:28.200
<v Speaker 5>this idea that trans people are monsters is really out there.

600
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:32.559
<v Speaker 5>And what this movie is showing is the idea that

601
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:37.200
<v Speaker 5>not only is that not true, but it's almost sort

602
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.119
<v Speaker 5>of saying that that that the real horror, the real tragedy,

603
00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:44.720
<v Speaker 5>is for someone to go throughout their life not accepting

604
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:47.839
<v Speaker 5>who they are, and that that can both.

605
00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:49.200
<v Speaker 6>Be specific about transnists.

606
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:51.680
<v Speaker 5>But I think like someone who's always wanted to be

607
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:54.119
<v Speaker 5>an artist but it's for you know, has become a

608
00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:57.000
<v Speaker 5>nine to five, you know, corporate job, but always want

609
00:31:57.039 --> 00:31:57.759
<v Speaker 5>to do something else.

610
00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:00.680
<v Speaker 6>I could easily see seeing themselves in this movie.

611
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:04.240
<v Speaker 5>Of you knowuse the final scene of Owen literally cracking

612
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:07.920
<v Speaker 5>himself open and realizing that there's this whole living self,

613
00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:10.559
<v Speaker 5>his soul inside of himself that he thought was dead,

614
00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:13.440
<v Speaker 5>you know, to me, like, yeah, the person who starts

615
00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:17.200
<v Speaker 5>painting again at age fifty, who gave it up at sixteen.

616
00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:18.839
<v Speaker 6>It's just as much there.

617
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:22.880
<v Speaker 5>But it's also very much this very real metaphor for

618
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:28.200
<v Speaker 5>transnis and hearing we speak very personally. I think there

619
00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:30.880
<v Speaker 5>can be a lot of generational conflict around and I

620
00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:32.519
<v Speaker 5>see this in a lot of tradition, a lot of

621
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:36.039
<v Speaker 5>communities where one community had to fight very hard for

622
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:39.400
<v Speaker 5>rights and they won some fights, and as a result,

623
00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:41.960
<v Speaker 5>younger generations now get to enjoy things they didn't get

624
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:45.200
<v Speaker 5>to enjoy, and there can be resentment both sides and like, oh,

625
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:47.039
<v Speaker 5>why don't you appreciate us, or oh, why are you

626
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:49.279
<v Speaker 5>stuck in the past. And I'm not trying to take

627
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:52.960
<v Speaker 5>sides in any of that, but I will say there's

628
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:55.880
<v Speaker 5>a part of me that is incredibly jealous of young

629
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:59.279
<v Speaker 5>people who grow up today who have the language that

630
00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:02.319
<v Speaker 5>I didn't have. I literally had, like the concept of

631
00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:07.599
<v Speaker 5>non binariness had never would never occur to me. I

632
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:10.960
<v Speaker 5>started questioning, I don't think I'm a man in high school,

633
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:13.480
<v Speaker 5>but I didn't think I was a woman either, so

634
00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:15.720
<v Speaker 5>I thought, therefore I must be stuck as a man,

635
00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:19.240
<v Speaker 5>and I think it may. My experience, I think is

636
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:23.920
<v Speaker 5>not like I. There's a level of danger and a

637
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:26.960
<v Speaker 5>level of social attack that is faced by people who

638
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:29.279
<v Speaker 5>go through more of a transition to a new gender

639
00:33:29.319 --> 00:33:30.720
<v Speaker 5>that I will ever have to do. And I'm not

640
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:33.319
<v Speaker 5>trying to appropriate that the slightest but just using my

641
00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:34.680
<v Speaker 5>experience and I think a lot of others.

642
00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:35.559
<v Speaker 6>It's even more so.

643
00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:41.680
<v Speaker 5>The idea of this, like because when I talk to

644
00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:44.440
<v Speaker 5>other people who've discovered their gender, you know, accepted their

645
00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:46.160
<v Speaker 5>gender much later in life.

646
00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:48.599
<v Speaker 6>There's also this sense of like how much time have

647
00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:50.519
<v Speaker 6>I wasted? How much time?

648
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:53.000
<v Speaker 5>Like could what would my life have been like if

649
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:56.400
<v Speaker 5>I could have been this? And I think I think

650
00:33:56.440 --> 00:33:58.920
<v Speaker 5>this movie really speaks to that in a way that

651
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:02.240
<v Speaker 5>both acknowledges that at but it's also like, that's the

652
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:04.480
<v Speaker 5>whole point of own cracking himself open at the time.

653
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:07.480
<v Speaker 5>It's that when he cracks himself often that that glowness,

654
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:10.400
<v Speaker 5>the glowing of the TV, which has been this representation

655
00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:13.679
<v Speaker 5>of his true self, is there all the time. And

656
00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:15.400
<v Speaker 5>to me, that was one of those brilliant things of

657
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:18.679
<v Speaker 5>it is that it speaks to that idea of that

658
00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:22.360
<v Speaker 5>the horror is denying who you are, and and but

659
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:23.840
<v Speaker 5>that that you can't.

660
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:25.679
<v Speaker 6>But it doesn't mean that you're dead. It doesn't mean

661
00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:26.280
<v Speaker 6>that you're over.

662
00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:30.239
<v Speaker 5>It doesn't mean that because you didn't accept it as

663
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:32.760
<v Speaker 5>a as a teenager a young adult when it was

664
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:36.119
<v Speaker 5>presented to you, the horror that therefore you have to

665
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:37.679
<v Speaker 5>deny the rest of your life isn't true.

666
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:40.119
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm.

667
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:41.679
<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

668
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:44.719
<v Speaker 7>And then you said the TV glow, Right, it's obviously

669
00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:47.679
<v Speaker 7>the title of the movie. There's a couple of times

670
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:53.599
<v Speaker 7>where the glow is presented as a portal, right, And

671
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:57.480
<v Speaker 7>at one point he literally like tries to go through

672
00:34:57.480 --> 00:34:59.760
<v Speaker 7>his own TV. I think, like smashes his head into

673
00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:03.960
<v Speaker 7>his TV and it's his dad, Fred Durst, who stops him, right,

674
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:07.639
<v Speaker 7>And I think at that time Owen is saying something,

675
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:10.960
<v Speaker 7>saying something. I can't remember the exact line he says.

676
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:14.039
<v Speaker 7>It might have been like you're killing me or something

677
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:15.800
<v Speaker 7>like that, but he definitely says that.

678
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:18.480
<v Speaker 2>In the final scene, right.

679
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:21.800
<v Speaker 7>He shouts out at his job at the like fun

680
00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:25.719
<v Speaker 7>center job. He shouts out like help me, like I'm

681
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:30.039
<v Speaker 7>dying here, and the reality freezes and every other character

682
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:32.880
<v Speaker 7>is frozen, and you know, it doesn't react to him,

683
00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:34.960
<v Speaker 7>and then like a reality kind of restarts.

684
00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:37.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I.

685
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:43.840
<v Speaker 7>Like, again, to me, I understand the metaphor, it doesn't

686
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:46.920
<v Speaker 7>speak to me, But that scene was so powerful because

687
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:49.280
<v Speaker 7>I think it's a it can be a universal feelings

688
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:52.440
<v Speaker 7>you've been saying of I'm trapped, like I'm dying here

689
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:55.320
<v Speaker 7>in this life, like I want to escape it, So

690
00:35:56.119 --> 00:35:59.760
<v Speaker 7>that can be a universal feeling regardless of what he

691
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:01.000
<v Speaker 7>did specifically, you're.

692
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:01.559
<v Speaker 2>Trying to escape.

693
00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:05.239
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah, very much so. And I think that's that's

694
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:08.960
<v Speaker 5>to me, that's what's so important to intersectionality. It's what's

695
00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:11.880
<v Speaker 5>so important to you know, any of these things, like

696
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:15.920
<v Speaker 5>I think we I think there's this balance that that

697
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:17.800
<v Speaker 5>it's really hard to find between on the one hand,

698
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:21.079
<v Speaker 5>saying the experience of this one person or this one

699
00:36:21.079 --> 00:36:24.519
<v Speaker 5>community is unique and separate and no one else should

700
00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:27.800
<v Speaker 5>relate to it because that's insulting to that community, or

701
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:30.159
<v Speaker 5>saying we're all oppressed in the same way.

702
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:32.519
<v Speaker 6>We all have the same experience. It's all the same thing.

703
00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:35.719
<v Speaker 5>And I think it's really important to be able to

704
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:39.000
<v Speaker 5>find that balance of saying like, yeah, the experience of

705
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:41.320
<v Speaker 5>a trans person, or the experience of a black person,

706
00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:43.280
<v Speaker 5>the experience of a woman, or of a disabled person

707
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:45.880
<v Speaker 5>or an Asian person, or any of these things is

708
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:49.480
<v Speaker 5>going to be unique and different, and that uniqueness has

709
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:51.920
<v Speaker 5>to be honored and looked at, but that they are

710
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:53.079
<v Speaker 5>also similarities.

711
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:53.559
<v Speaker 6>In the ways we can all relate.

712
00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:57.280
<v Speaker 5>You know, there are things you have said about, you know,

713
00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:01.840
<v Speaker 5>your name being mispronounced, or other aspects of being Asian

714
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:04.679
<v Speaker 5>American and things like that, and discrimination and depression you've

715
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:07.599
<v Speaker 5>dealt with that I don't. I have never dealt with

716
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:10.239
<v Speaker 5>those things, but they connect enough to things that I

717
00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:13.400
<v Speaker 5>have dealt with that I can understand. And I just

718
00:37:13.480 --> 00:37:16.800
<v Speaker 5>love the way that this movie does that of you know,

719
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:18.880
<v Speaker 5>and I because I think it is just such a

720
00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:26.599
<v Speaker 5>hard balance to find. Yeah, let's talk about, Well, is

721
00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:28.559
<v Speaker 5>there anything else about this specific movie you wanted to

722
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:30.000
<v Speaker 5>bring up, because we also wanted to talk about it

723
00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:32.679
<v Speaker 5>in kind of context of some other things that are

724
00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:35.360
<v Speaker 5>happening right now in cinema around horror and trans issues

725
00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:36.079
<v Speaker 5>and stuff like that.

726
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:38.480
<v Speaker 6>But nothing else about this specific thing you wanted to mention.

727
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:43.920
<v Speaker 7>No, I think we're good on this movie. It's and

728
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:48.320
<v Speaker 7>I just want to reiterate, it's it's very different. Like

729
00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:51.280
<v Speaker 7>if you've listened to this discussion so far and you

730
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:54.800
<v Speaker 7>haven't seen it, of course, like I highly recommend you

731
00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:59.159
<v Speaker 7>watch it. I don't think if people are squeamish about

732
00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:02.239
<v Speaker 7>horror as the genre, it just it doesn't hit any

733
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:03.039
<v Speaker 7>of those notes.

734
00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:04.280
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, you know, there's no.

735
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:10.719
<v Speaker 7>The psychological like existential horror like it. It may make

736
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:15.559
<v Speaker 7>you think about stuff afterwards in a way that is

737
00:38:15.639 --> 00:38:19.480
<v Speaker 7>uncomfortable and so so that's something to be aware of,

738
00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:22.119
<v Speaker 7>but it's not going to like gross you out or

739
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:24.360
<v Speaker 7>like give you the jump scares and make you afraid,

740
00:38:24.440 --> 00:38:26.840
<v Speaker 7>you know, keep make you keep the lights on at night.

741
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:29.079
<v Speaker 7>I don't, at least I don't think so.

742
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:30.920
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, definitely.

743
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:33.239
<v Speaker 5>A couple of the last things I reason I want

744
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:35.280
<v Speaker 5>to say one is that I realized I never quite

745
00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:36.840
<v Speaker 5>made this connection. But part of why I went on

746
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:41.159
<v Speaker 5>that whole thing about the horror, the tragedy being a

747
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:43.559
<v Speaker 5>person not really a person, having lived so much of

748
00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:45.920
<v Speaker 5>their life without realizing who they are and what they are,

749
00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:49.920
<v Speaker 5>is that, as you said, there's this myth that movies

750
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:52.079
<v Speaker 5>like this, or movies that are more explicit about things,

751
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:55.519
<v Speaker 5>turn people trans Where's the reality.

752
00:38:55.239 --> 00:38:56.920
<v Speaker 2>Out which is just total BS.

753
00:38:57.159 --> 00:38:58.880
<v Speaker 6>Right, that's total BS.

754
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:01.679
<v Speaker 5>But the reality is that they are fighting against this horror,

755
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:05.840
<v Speaker 5>which is what they're doing is saying there is like

756
00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:08.639
<v Speaker 5>there are words for that thing you have inside yourself

757
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:11.679
<v Speaker 5>that you think there aren't any words for. And I

758
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:14.199
<v Speaker 5>think that that is so powerful and kind of on

759
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:16.840
<v Speaker 5>that subject. I don't have no idea of the experience

760
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:18.800
<v Speaker 5>of this movie anything to do with this. It seems

761
00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:21.079
<v Speaker 5>like this was a truth already known but has only

762
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:25.960
<v Speaker 5>reasonly become more public. The actor who plays Maddie recently,

763
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:28.559
<v Speaker 5>only just two days ago, revealed that there the name

764
00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:31.599
<v Speaker 5>that they actually go by is Jack Haven and I

765
00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:34.760
<v Speaker 5>checked the the cast stuff has not been updated yet,

766
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:37.280
<v Speaker 5>but I imagine has happened with Elliott Page, that that

767
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:39.719
<v Speaker 5>will happen on the movie, on the movie websites and

768
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:41.360
<v Speaker 5>stuff like that, but.

769
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:45.559
<v Speaker 2>That Wikipedia has already been updated.

770
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:49.159
<v Speaker 5>Has it awesome? Okay, so yeah, that's kind of cool.

771
00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:51.039
<v Speaker 5>And the last thing I wanted to say, and this

772
00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:52.760
<v Speaker 5>is just one more of those. It's like a small

773
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:57.400
<v Speaker 5>little detail, but that was so poignant, and that this

774
00:39:57.480 --> 00:39:59.800
<v Speaker 5>one I missed the first time through, but I really

775
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:04.119
<v Speaker 5>the second time. There's a scene early in the movie

776
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:11.519
<v Speaker 5>where Maddie is talking to Owen about the show and

777
00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:14.880
<v Speaker 5>Owen is trying to understand, and Owen is clearly kind

778
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:16.920
<v Speaker 5>of confused because Owen is jumping in right in the middle.

779
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:18.679
<v Speaker 6>Owen has just watched like a.

780
00:40:18.679 --> 00:40:21.199
<v Speaker 5>Random episode from season four of a show that he's

781
00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:24.079
<v Speaker 5>not seen anything of before. Maddie is a little bit

782
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:26.920
<v Speaker 5>not really like, you know, malicious way making fun of him,

783
00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:29.440
<v Speaker 5>but he's kind of like, you know, teasing him and

784
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:32.000
<v Speaker 5>kind of surprised, like, oh, don't you know that when

785
00:40:32.039 --> 00:40:34.639
<v Speaker 5>he asks some questions and they're kind of specific, like

786
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:37.199
<v Speaker 5>he asks at one point, so does this mean that

787
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:39.199
<v Speaker 5>they are part of the pink Opake?

788
00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:42.960
<v Speaker 6>And she says, no, it means they are the pink Opake.

789
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:47.440
<v Speaker 5>And once I connected this movie as the metaphor that

790
00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:52.119
<v Speaker 5>it is that feels like such an allegory to a

791
00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:54.760
<v Speaker 5>person discovering later in life that they are queer, they

792
00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:59.000
<v Speaker 5>are trans and trying to jump into online conversations about

793
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:03.119
<v Speaker 5>this to learn about this where there's just so much

794
00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:05.960
<v Speaker 5>lingo and it's great and it's wonderful, but it changes

795
00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:09.159
<v Speaker 5>every three or four years, and there's so many acronyms,

796
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:11.960
<v Speaker 5>and I think It's a common experience. I have this

797
00:41:12.039 --> 00:41:13.880
<v Speaker 5>even sometimes when I try to talk to younger queer

798
00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:16.360
<v Speaker 5>people and I'm just totally lost and I'm like, what

799
00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:18.079
<v Speaker 5>the hell I ask a question and people are like, oh,

800
00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:21.519
<v Speaker 5>come on, don't you know that? And so just that

801
00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:23.920
<v Speaker 5>one scene felt like such a perfect metaphor for that

802
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:27.519
<v Speaker 5>experience of trying to jump into these conversations.

803
00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:28.239
<v Speaker 6>I think that's right.

804
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:30.440
<v Speaker 5>I think a lot of like subcommunities can have these

805
00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:34.559
<v Speaker 5>whole lingo and language that again, because Owen is later

806
00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:37.679
<v Speaker 5>in life discovering it, he doesn't know and that's part

807
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:38.519
<v Speaker 5>of the problem for him.

808
00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:44.840
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I deal with that a lot in gaming communities. Yeah,

809
00:41:44.599 --> 00:41:48.519
<v Speaker 7>there will be like light teasing or gate light gatekeeping

810
00:41:48.679 --> 00:41:49.519
<v Speaker 7>over URMs.

811
00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:51.199
<v Speaker 2>Right, if you use.

812
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:53.239
<v Speaker 7>A certain term that's older, it's like, oh, well that's

813
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:54.159
<v Speaker 7>a boomer.

814
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:57.920
<v Speaker 2>Term, right, yep type of thing. Yeah, yeah, see that

815
00:41:57.960 --> 00:41:59.079
<v Speaker 2>happen totally.

816
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:01.559
<v Speaker 5>So So one thing we were thinking about in terms

817
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:03.679
<v Speaker 5>of this conversation is that this is by no means

818
00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:07.400
<v Speaker 5>the only sort of transness as a big issue in

819
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:10.679
<v Speaker 5>a movie that's come out this year. There's another one

820
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:14.079
<v Speaker 5>that's come out that just got thirteen Oscar nominations. It

821
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:16.599
<v Speaker 5>is very well regarded by a lot of the film

822
00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:22.760
<v Speaker 5>community world. Amelia Perez, I've heard it often pronounced with

823
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:27.079
<v Speaker 5>a much more Mexican pronunciation of those words that I'm

824
00:42:27.079 --> 00:42:28.360
<v Speaker 5>not going to try and recreate.

825
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.320
<v Speaker 6>And it's it's. It is a much more specific movie.

826
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:35.559
<v Speaker 5>It is a movie about a trans woman and her

827
00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:38.159
<v Speaker 5>the experience of her trandness is a very big part

828
00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:41.760
<v Speaker 5>of the movie. It is also very badly regarded by, frankly,

829
00:42:41.800 --> 00:42:43.760
<v Speaker 5>a lot of the trans community and a lot of

830
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:46.480
<v Speaker 5>the Mexican community. And and Riki, I know you wanted

831
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:48.920
<v Speaker 5>to talk about that in comparison with this Where Where Where?

832
00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:53.280
<v Speaker 6>Where? Is it few that that this movie intersects well.

833
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:59.199
<v Speaker 7>I think this movie, first off, like, it's very important

834
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:06.079
<v Speaker 7>that the actress who's playing the title character is trans

835
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:11.559
<v Speaker 7>Carlos Sophia Gascon, and she has been nominated for an

836
00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:16.039
<v Speaker 7>Academy Award. It's the first time in history that an

837
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:19.880
<v Speaker 7>openly transferson has been nominated for an Academy Award. And like,

838
00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:22.159
<v Speaker 7>there are a bunch of other like firsts in terms

839
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:25.800
<v Speaker 7>of like the award seasons that have happened. That's very

840
00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:32.320
<v Speaker 7>important and I think that that needs to be acknowledged

841
00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:36.639
<v Speaker 7>in a way that is separate from the criticism about

842
00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:40.400
<v Speaker 7>this movie and about the character, because any anything you

843
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:44.079
<v Speaker 7>say about like the portrayal of the transferson like that

844
00:43:44.360 --> 00:43:46.679
<v Speaker 7>absolutely has to be separate, like the plot of the

845
00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:50.800
<v Speaker 7>movie and whatnot, because it's such an important moment. And

846
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:54.480
<v Speaker 7>I don't you know, if just being nominated is great,

847
00:43:54.519 --> 00:43:56.760
<v Speaker 7>but if she ends up winning, like, I don't want

848
00:43:56.800 --> 00:44:00.440
<v Speaker 7>that to be taken away from her because of because

849
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:04.239
<v Speaker 7>of like the character she portrays, right, Like, that's that's

850
00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:08.079
<v Speaker 7>such a secondary thing. It's important. I think it's very important.

851
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:13.199
<v Speaker 7>That's why we're discussing it. But the importance should be

852
00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:18.000
<v Speaker 7>acknowledged and absolutely should be celebrated in a way that

853
00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:20.119
<v Speaker 7>it's that we don't add a butt like if there's

854
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:23.159
<v Speaker 7>a win, like she won an Academy War, but the

855
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:26.199
<v Speaker 7>movie sucks, right, like, no, forget it, Like that's not

856
00:44:26.440 --> 00:44:27.360
<v Speaker 7>that's not what's going on.

857
00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:28.320
<v Speaker 6>You know.

858
00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:31.400
<v Speaker 5>The first Oscar ever won by a black woman, I

859
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:35.440
<v Speaker 5>think possibly by a black person was Hattie McDaniel in

860
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:38.679
<v Speaker 5>nineteen thirty nine, who won the Oscar for playing the

861
00:44:38.840 --> 00:44:41.719
<v Speaker 5>slave made to Scarlett O'Hara and Gone with a win,

862
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:47.880
<v Speaker 5>a incredibly racist movie and an incredibly racist portrayal through

863
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:49.719
<v Speaker 5>no fault, I mean the way the character is written.

864
00:44:50.199 --> 00:44:52.480
<v Speaker 5>But still it's an amazing achievement and and nothing should

865
00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:54.039
<v Speaker 5>ever be taken away from Hatti McDaniel for it.

866
00:44:54.159 --> 00:44:59.119
<v Speaker 7>Yeah good, yeah, good comparison. So what is going on

867
00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:04.639
<v Speaker 7>with this movie? Like why is it being criticized? I

868
00:45:04.679 --> 00:45:07.119
<v Speaker 7>think there's a couple of things going on, like what

869
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:08.800
<v Speaker 7>what have you seen?

870
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:09.519
<v Speaker 2>Discussed?

871
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:11.679
<v Speaker 5>The best way I can describe this, both from all

872
00:45:11.679 --> 00:45:13.480
<v Speaker 5>the critiques and stuff that I've read and also from

873
00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:16.760
<v Speaker 5>my own viewing of it is and this is my terminology,

874
00:45:16.599 --> 00:45:18.400
<v Speaker 5>but I think it's similar to what a lot of

875
00:45:18.440 --> 00:45:22.920
<v Speaker 5>people said. It's kind of like the Green Book of Transnis.

876
00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:26.280
<v Speaker 5>If you remember, Green Book was a movie about a

877
00:45:26.679 --> 00:45:30.000
<v Speaker 5>white guy who is the driver for a black pianist

878
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:33.679
<v Speaker 5>going through the South and having to use this green Book,

879
00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:36.119
<v Speaker 5>which is a book that was real that was a

880
00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:39.760
<v Speaker 5>way to help black people traveling in the segregated South

881
00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:42.440
<v Speaker 5>and even in the racist North. You know, what are

882
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:44.920
<v Speaker 5>safe places to stay, what are sundown towns and all

883
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:49.360
<v Speaker 5>that kind of stuff. And I think it's a good movie,

884
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:52.880
<v Speaker 5>but it is very much a story about a white

885
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:57.159
<v Speaker 5>person experiencing racism through a black person they're connected to

886
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:01.239
<v Speaker 5>and of you know, in that way, it's like it's

887
00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:05.000
<v Speaker 5>there is a very safe story of racism that that

888
00:46:05.079 --> 00:46:07.519
<v Speaker 5>allows white people to watch it and be able to

889
00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:10.280
<v Speaker 5>be very much like not challenged at all in their

890
00:46:10.280 --> 00:46:13.039
<v Speaker 5>own racism and instead just to be like, oh, look,

891
00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:14.719
<v Speaker 5>not just.

892
00:46:14.679 --> 00:46:21.039
<v Speaker 7>Not challenged, but I think like celebrating their lack of racism, right.

893
00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:24.119
<v Speaker 5>And it was largely panned by large members of black

894
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:26.079
<v Speaker 5>community and black film critics and stuff like that, and

895
00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:28.880
<v Speaker 5>one I think it one best picture, and that was

896
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:30.880
<v Speaker 5>seen as a kind of like, oh, this is this

897
00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:36.840
<v Speaker 5>is you know, an example of we're not celebrating black

898
00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:40.400
<v Speaker 5>film creators. We're we're celebrating like white people being heroic

899
00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:41.000
<v Speaker 5>in the face of.

900
00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:42.199
<v Speaker 6>Racism, et cetera.

901
00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:43.639
<v Speaker 7>And this.

902
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:47.559
<v Speaker 5>A trans character is one of the main characters, and

903
00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:50.880
<v Speaker 5>it's certainly the title character, but so much of it

904
00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:53.000
<v Speaker 5>play And there's a great article that I read recently

905
00:46:53.079 --> 00:46:55.920
<v Speaker 5>by that was put out by Glad that I will

906
00:46:56.039 --> 00:46:58.320
<v Speaker 5>link to that really kind of goes through it all

907
00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:01.159
<v Speaker 5>the problems with it, but it just it plays into

908
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:06.159
<v Speaker 5>almost every stereotype that people have about trans people. It's

909
00:47:06.199 --> 00:47:10.039
<v Speaker 5>also incredibly inaccurate. It talks a lot about surgeries and

910
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:15.320
<v Speaker 5>medical things in ways that are blatant, like you know,

911
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:17.679
<v Speaker 5>not accurate to the actual experience, but play into a

912
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:19.480
<v Speaker 5>lot of the kind of hate language you hear online.

913
00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:23.480
<v Speaker 5>The characters portrayed as incredibly selfish and kind of like

914
00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:27.639
<v Speaker 5>using their transness to justify things, and there's kind of

915
00:47:27.639 --> 00:47:30.400
<v Speaker 5>this like redemption arc that they go through because part

916
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:32.119
<v Speaker 5>of it is that they're also we're a criminal and

917
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:35.920
<v Speaker 5>a drug dealer, and it's kind of presented as like, oh,

918
00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:38.320
<v Speaker 5>but I was trans, and so that's all the bad

919
00:47:38.360 --> 00:47:40.199
<v Speaker 5>things I did as a man, and now as a woman,

920
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:42.159
<v Speaker 5>I will be like pure and right and good, and

921
00:47:42.199 --> 00:47:44.840
<v Speaker 5>I'm painting with an incredibly broad brush here. There's a

922
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:47.920
<v Speaker 5>lot more nuance to the story. And again I'm saying

923
00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:50.280
<v Speaker 5>this also as a white non binary person talking about

924
00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:54.119
<v Speaker 5>a movie about a Mexican trans woman. So take us

925
00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:56.519
<v Speaker 5>a big brain assault and take much more of the

926
00:47:56.639 --> 00:47:59.079
<v Speaker 5>articles that folks have read have written that I'll be

927
00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:01.559
<v Speaker 5>referencing in the show notes to this. But yeah, I

928
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:05.960
<v Speaker 5>think it's it's It's been widely panned as this is

929
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:09.320
<v Speaker 5>a CIS person's fantasy of what transnis is like, and

930
00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:12.639
<v Speaker 5>it's actually gonna much more encourage transphobia than really like

931
00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:15.360
<v Speaker 5>speaking to the trans experience in a real way that

932
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:17.760
<v Speaker 5>either is helpful to trans folks or is helpful to

933
00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:20.079
<v Speaker 5>cist folks, like breaking down some of that hate.

934
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:23.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I.

935
00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:30.000
<v Speaker 7>Just want to go down the the biography of the

936
00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:34.920
<v Speaker 7>film here, because it's written and directed by Jacques Audiard.

937
00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:37.000
<v Speaker 2>I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.

938
00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:43.840
<v Speaker 7>That's a French film director, and he's French, and by

939
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:48.559
<v Speaker 7>all we know a cis male, right, So they are

940
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.719
<v Speaker 7>a French cis male has written and directed a movie

941
00:48:53.199 --> 00:49:00.559
<v Speaker 7>about a Mexican trans woman, and and that it it

942
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:03.639
<v Speaker 7>raises an eyebrow, right, And the same thing like The

943
00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:09.000
<v Speaker 7>Green Book, I believe was written and diregged by different people,

944
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:12.360
<v Speaker 7>but from what I can find, they're both white, right,

945
00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:15.239
<v Speaker 7>So it's like, yes, like people who are not of

946
00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:21.039
<v Speaker 7>the identity creating something about very like strongly portraying a

947
00:49:21.079 --> 00:49:26.840
<v Speaker 7>certain thing about an identity group is like okay, why right?

948
00:49:26.920 --> 00:49:30.559
<v Speaker 7>And especially twenty eighteen, I think the big thing with

949
00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:33.039
<v Speaker 7>The Green Book that happened is that it beat out

950
00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:36.599
<v Speaker 7>Black Clansmen, which was the by Spike Lee.

951
00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:38.239
<v Speaker 2>And of course, like Spike.

952
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:42.679
<v Speaker 7>Lee has been snubbed multiple times by the Academy, and

953
00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:44.960
<v Speaker 7>it was a lot of people roll their eyes. It's

954
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:48.079
<v Speaker 7>like like Spike Lee again, it's been snubbed, but the

955
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:51.360
<v Speaker 7>specific way of like the Green Book beating out the

956
00:49:51.400 --> 00:49:54.800
<v Speaker 7>Black clansmen and then being celebrated. It's like this great

957
00:49:54.840 --> 00:50:00.000
<v Speaker 7>movie for black people. It was like, no.

958
00:49:59.239 --> 00:50:02.079
<v Speaker 5>Context there be This was coming right on the heels

959
00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:05.360
<v Speaker 5>of the Oscars So White campaign that have been talking

960
00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:09.199
<v Speaker 5>about how often black black creators and black movies and

961
00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:13.719
<v Speaker 5>black you know, actors and directors and people across the

962
00:50:13.719 --> 00:50:16.599
<v Speaker 5>board were denied denied Oscars, and so I think there

963
00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:19.960
<v Speaker 5>was this kind of self congratulated tone by Hollywood and like, no, look,

964
00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:21.840
<v Speaker 5>it's not Oscar So White anymore.

965
00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:26.159
<v Speaker 6>We rewarded this movie about racism. And it's like, and

966
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:28.519
<v Speaker 6>I'm sure there's a similar thing with a Millia Peres now.

967
00:50:28.960 --> 00:50:31.880
<v Speaker 7>And yeah, I mean Maherschela Ali I think was the

968
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:36.679
<v Speaker 7>most prominent black person who won and who won an

969
00:50:36.679 --> 00:50:41.639
<v Speaker 7>Oscar with regards to that movie, right, And it's the

970
00:50:41.719 --> 00:50:44.159
<v Speaker 7>kind of thing like that. It's called these are often

971
00:50:44.159 --> 00:50:46.199
<v Speaker 7>called like white savior movies.

972
00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:46.960
<v Speaker 6>Yep.

973
00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:51.280
<v Speaker 7>In the same way that Hidden Figures, a movie about

974
00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:58.760
<v Speaker 7>the black mathematicians who helped the NASA Space program to

975
00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:01.199
<v Speaker 7>make all the calculation to be able to get a

976
00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:02.360
<v Speaker 7>rocket into space.

977
00:51:02.119 --> 00:51:02.880
<v Speaker 2>And go to the moon.

978
00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:06.840
<v Speaker 7>And yet right, the main character, like the most prominent

979
00:51:06.920 --> 00:51:10.480
<v Speaker 7>character is Kevin Costner's white Guy, and the scene that

980
00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:12.679
<v Speaker 7>was shown in the trailers that we remember as him

981
00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:16.880
<v Speaker 7>taking like a golf club to the whites only.

982
00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:18.480
<v Speaker 2>Sign above the bathroom yep.

983
00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:21.480
<v Speaker 7>And so like it's that kind of thing where oh yeah,

984
00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:24.320
<v Speaker 7>like as a as a white person or as a

985
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:26.920
<v Speaker 7>non black person, like you feel good because this white

986
00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:30.880
<v Speaker 7>guy is like standing against racism, but it's not.

987
00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:32.880
<v Speaker 2>It should be more.

988
00:51:32.679 --> 00:51:36.159
<v Speaker 7>Centered on the black characters because that's what it is

989
00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:37.639
<v Speaker 7>purportedly about.

990
00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:42.159
<v Speaker 2>And so the same thing here is.

991
00:51:42.039 --> 00:51:50.360
<v Speaker 8>That the this this French Cismle Guy is creating a

992
00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:53.679
<v Speaker 8>movie that is getting all this buzz and is elevating

993
00:51:53.719 --> 00:51:58.880
<v Speaker 8>the trans discussion, which I think is good, right, having

994
00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:01.519
<v Speaker 8>more trans representation.

995
00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:07.440
<v Speaker 7>In movies and TV everywhere in life is good. But

996
00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:11.440
<v Speaker 7>when the trans community is saying this is a bad portrayal,

997
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:16.239
<v Speaker 7>this is a harmful portrayal, then that you know, we

998
00:52:16.320 --> 00:52:18.760
<v Speaker 7>gotta we gotta question that, and we got to listen

999
00:52:18.760 --> 00:52:22.559
<v Speaker 7>to them. And then like again the comparison to Green

1000
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:26.400
<v Speaker 7>Book and Black Clansmen. I saw the TV Glows got

1001
00:52:26.599 --> 00:52:32.360
<v Speaker 7>no nominations, right when when it is the actual representation

1002
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:35.480
<v Speaker 7>of trans experience that we you know, in our opinion

1003
00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:36.760
<v Speaker 7>is very good.

1004
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:38.960
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, very much, so very much.

1005
00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:40.679
<v Speaker 5>I think part of that budget, you know, Milli pre

1006
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:43.679
<v Speaker 5>is getting a much bigger budget, Like there's I was

1007
00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:46.599
<v Speaker 5>thinking about, where does I see the TV Glow fit

1008
00:52:46.760 --> 00:52:49.239
<v Speaker 5>in terms of an Oscar conversation, And I think the

1009
00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:51.599
<v Speaker 5>unfortunate thing is because it is fairly low budget and

1010
00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:53.880
<v Speaker 5>like some of the like some of the like Justice

1011
00:52:53.960 --> 00:52:57.320
<v Speaker 5>what they do to age Justice Smith just looks bad unfortunately.

1012
00:52:57.960 --> 00:52:59.679
<v Speaker 5>And there's some other stuff like that where it's like

1013
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:02.960
<v Speaker 5>it feels like the production values are not what you

1014
00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:05.239
<v Speaker 5>would think of for an Oscar winning movie. But I

1015
00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:07.679
<v Speaker 5>definitely think it should have been considered, especially the acting

1016
00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:10.360
<v Speaker 5>of both Jack Haven and Justice Smith.

1017
00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:16.119
<v Speaker 7>And horror horror gets often ignored, yes or sidelined for

1018
00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:21.800
<v Speaker 7>award season. That has definitely been a thing historically, and uh.

1019
00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:24.559
<v Speaker 5>And they are the fact that I think if any

1020
00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:27.039
<v Speaker 5>horror had been nominated, it was probably gonna be no

1021
00:53:27.039 --> 00:53:29.800
<v Speaker 5>know Saratu and the fact that it also got no

1022
00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:32.480
<v Speaker 5>nominations has except for like some technical things, has been

1023
00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:34.360
<v Speaker 5>also part of the whole, like horror gets shut out

1024
00:53:34.360 --> 00:53:35.079
<v Speaker 5>and stuff like that.

1025
00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:38.239
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I mean this has been a thing among horror

1026
00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:39.519
<v Speaker 7>fans for a long time.

1027
00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:41.880
<v Speaker 2>I think the most prominent.

1028
00:53:41.480 --> 00:53:47.199
<v Speaker 7>Horror movie to do well and then Oscars was Silence

1029
00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:52.800
<v Speaker 7>of the Lambs YEP, which also has a problematic portrayal

1030
00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:58.719
<v Speaker 7>of a possibly transperson in Buffalo bill Is for that time,

1031
00:53:58.840 --> 00:54:02.599
<v Speaker 7>like they didn't call himself trans and it's not clear.

1032
00:54:04.079 --> 00:54:07.079
<v Speaker 2>In the movie portrayed as a man who cross dressed.

1033
00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:12.760
<v Speaker 7>But right, historically we can see that maybe as a precursor.

1034
00:54:12.840 --> 00:54:14.159
<v Speaker 6>Right, No, exactly.

1035
00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:16.960
<v Speaker 5>And there's two other movies I want to bring up

1036
00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:18.559
<v Speaker 5>that I think in the last couple of years have

1037
00:54:18.639 --> 00:54:21.119
<v Speaker 5>also done like much better jobs than Amelia Perez.

1038
00:54:21.159 --> 00:54:22.920
<v Speaker 6>And these are both sort.

1039
00:54:22.760 --> 00:54:27.320
<v Speaker 5>Of closer to the metaphor idea, but both really powerful

1040
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:31.360
<v Speaker 5>and both animated and both kind of on the surface

1041
00:54:31.480 --> 00:54:34.119
<v Speaker 5>kids movies, which I think is really important because I think,

1042
00:54:34.199 --> 00:54:37.519
<v Speaker 5>you know, this whole idea of grooming children is absolute bullshit.

1043
00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:40.840
<v Speaker 5>It's about trying to keep kids alive, because yes, people

1044
00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:44.719
<v Speaker 5>do start questioning their gender identity as teenagers, as kids,

1045
00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:49.280
<v Speaker 5>as you like in part because general he's pushed on

1046
00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:51.440
<v Speaker 5>people so much, you know, like only you're four years old,

1047
00:54:51.519 --> 00:54:53.320
<v Speaker 5>you know, I play with trucks and not dolls, like

1048
00:54:53.679 --> 00:54:58.360
<v Speaker 5>that is pushing gender ideology on people. Sure, But the

1049
00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:00.519
<v Speaker 5>two movies I wanted to bring up. The first is

1050
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:03.320
<v Speaker 5>Luca and Luca is I would say it's much more

1051
00:55:03.320 --> 00:55:07.239
<v Speaker 5>about being gay than it is about being trans. But again,

1052
00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:11.119
<v Speaker 5>like in this the word gay is never mentioned. There's

1053
00:55:11.159 --> 00:55:14.320
<v Speaker 5>one quick shot of two women who are holding hands

1054
00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:16.599
<v Speaker 5>at the very end of the movie, but it's mostly

1055
00:55:16.599 --> 00:55:20.440
<v Speaker 5>about a society that lives by a small Italian town

1056
00:55:20.880 --> 00:55:24.039
<v Speaker 5>on the sea, where there are some people who are

1057
00:55:24.079 --> 00:55:27.159
<v Speaker 5>mere people but are living as though they are regular people,

1058
00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:29.760
<v Speaker 5>and there's a lot of hatred and discrimination against them,

1059
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:32.599
<v Speaker 5>and they have to live in secret, and people like them,

1060
00:55:32.639 --> 00:55:37.199
<v Speaker 5>and the whole thing is very clear I said, very queerly,

1061
00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:42.239
<v Speaker 5>very clearly, a queer allegory was never actually said. And

1062
00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:44.480
<v Speaker 5>you can but I think like a lot of kids

1063
00:55:44.519 --> 00:55:46.559
<v Speaker 5>probably can watch this and be like, oh yeah, maybe

1064
00:55:46.599 --> 00:55:49.679
<v Speaker 5>actually being different or loving people differently or anything that's

1065
00:55:49.719 --> 00:55:54.119
<v Speaker 5>not bad necessarily. And the other one is Pnemona, which

1066
00:55:54.119 --> 00:55:57.199
<v Speaker 5>is based on a graphic novel and is more directly

1067
00:55:57.199 --> 00:55:59.960
<v Speaker 5>I think of a trans allegory and there's openly queer

1068
00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:02.920
<v Speaker 5>characters in it, and the Mona, the main character is

1069
00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:05.519
<v Speaker 5>a shape shifter, but also one of the things shapes

1070
00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:09.440
<v Speaker 5>uh shifts between genders. And at one point someone asks like,

1071
00:56:09.480 --> 00:56:12.440
<v Speaker 5>what is your real gender and and her their response

1072
00:56:12.519 --> 00:56:15.079
<v Speaker 5>is just like I'm me, And they use different pronouns

1073
00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:16.960
<v Speaker 5>different parts of the movie, and it's it's just incredible.

1074
00:56:18.719 --> 00:56:20.199
<v Speaker 5>So yeah, I just wanted to like lift those up

1075
00:56:20.199 --> 00:56:23.119
<v Speaker 5>as other kind of things like what happens in.

1076
00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:25.880
<v Speaker 6>Saw the TV Glow.

1077
00:56:28.199 --> 00:56:31.920
<v Speaker 7>See I and this, like I have a different opinion

1078
00:56:31.920 --> 00:56:35.119
<v Speaker 7>on Luca and this might just be our different lived

1079
00:56:35.119 --> 00:56:38.079
<v Speaker 7>experiences and how we view things. But to me, stuff

1080
00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:43.599
<v Speaker 7>like that is more about race, mmm okay, And and

1081
00:56:43.679 --> 00:56:45.800
<v Speaker 7>that could also just be the Star Trek of me

1082
00:56:46.079 --> 00:56:49.440
<v Speaker 7>is like different races in Star Trek are often used

1083
00:56:49.480 --> 00:56:54.239
<v Speaker 7>for discussions about race, like are like human races like black, white,

1084
00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:55.119
<v Speaker 7>and Asian, et cetera.

1085
00:56:55.800 --> 00:56:57.840
<v Speaker 2>So that's that's that's a different frame.

1086
00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:03.079
<v Speaker 7>I got an animated movie that has been often cited

1087
00:57:04.840 --> 00:57:09.760
<v Speaker 7>as an egg movie. It's called Your Name. It's Japanese anime.

1088
00:57:11.239 --> 00:57:13.920
<v Speaker 7>The Japanese name is Kimino Nawa and it is about

1089
00:57:14.199 --> 00:57:16.800
<v Speaker 7>It's a rom com and it's one of my favorite

1090
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:20.639
<v Speaker 7>movies of all time. I've mentioned it before, but it

1091
00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:24.079
<v Speaker 7>is about a man and a woman or a boy

1092
00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:27.920
<v Speaker 7>and a girl. They're teenagers who body swap through un

1093
00:57:28.719 --> 00:57:30.920
<v Speaker 7>known magical powers.

1094
00:57:31.079 --> 00:57:32.079
<v Speaker 2>It's never explained.

1095
00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:35.119
<v Speaker 7>They just body swap and then like live their lives

1096
00:57:35.199 --> 00:57:37.400
<v Speaker 7>for a while and like each other's bodies and keep

1097
00:57:37.519 --> 00:57:40.440
<v Speaker 7>going back and forth and communicate to each other through

1098
00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:44.480
<v Speaker 7>like written notes or like text messages to themselves. And

1099
00:57:45.119 --> 00:57:48.159
<v Speaker 7>it has like a few of those tropy moments that

1100
00:57:48.360 --> 00:57:51.239
<v Speaker 7>like often gender body swap movies do about when you

1101
00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:54.199
<v Speaker 7>like find yourself in the opposite body. But then also

1102
00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:56.800
<v Speaker 7>just like quick acceptance of like, I guess this is

1103
00:57:56.920 --> 00:57:59.559
<v Speaker 7>just like what I'm doing now, right, and it has

1104
00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:03.800
<v Speaker 7>been to me is like a moment of like oh yeah, okay.

1105
00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:06.400
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, no, I can see that. It's definitely what I'd

1106
00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:06.840
<v Speaker 6>love to say.

1107
00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:10.880
<v Speaker 5>And there's one other example that I think a lot

1108
00:58:10.920 --> 00:58:12.440
<v Speaker 5>of folks are kind of maybe even wondering why we

1109
00:58:12.440 --> 00:58:16.159
<v Speaker 5>haven't talked about yet. But another example of think where

1110
00:58:16.960 --> 00:58:19.000
<v Speaker 5>sci fi is used as a great metaphor from one

1111
00:58:19.039 --> 00:58:23.159
<v Speaker 5>of the things transness which is the trills and the

1112
00:58:23.239 --> 00:58:27.599
<v Speaker 5>character of jed Zia Dax and other Daxes in Star Trek,

1113
00:58:27.719 --> 00:58:30.119
<v Speaker 5>Deep Space nine and Star Trek in general. We're gonna

1114
00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:33.400
<v Speaker 5>talk about that in our Bonus member section, which is

1115
00:58:33.440 --> 00:58:35.159
<v Speaker 5>from members. Of course, you can become a member for

1116
00:58:35.239 --> 00:58:37.199
<v Speaker 5>only five dollars a month fifty five dollars a year.

1117
00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:41.599
<v Speaker 5>You get access to special member episodes on both this

1118
00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:44.599
<v Speaker 5>and the Star Wars Universe pot Star Wars Generations podcast.

1119
00:58:44.960 --> 00:58:47.800
<v Speaker 5>You get member free ad free episodes, you get bonus

1120
00:58:47.840 --> 00:58:49.719
<v Speaker 5>content you know. Also it's great things, and mostly get

1121
00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:51.920
<v Speaker 5>to help us keep the lights on. Only five dollars

1122
00:58:51.960 --> 00:58:54.599
<v Speaker 5>a month fifty five dollars a year, all the informations

1123
00:58:54.599 --> 00:58:57.320
<v Speaker 5>in our show notes, please think about signing up. So

1124
00:58:57.400 --> 00:59:02.000
<v Speaker 5>with that, why don't we sign off Riggi as always,

1125
00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:04.280
<v Speaker 5>thank you so much for this conversation. For everybody else,

1126
00:59:04.800 --> 00:59:06.840
<v Speaker 5>please check our show notes because we're starting to do.

1127
00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:08.400
<v Speaker 6>In our show notes, we're gonna start.

1128
00:59:08.320 --> 00:59:10.719
<v Speaker 5>Letting people know what's the next episode we're doing, so

1129
00:59:10.760 --> 00:59:12.480
<v Speaker 5>that you have a chance to kind of send us

1130
00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:14.679
<v Speaker 5>feedback or send us thoughts, or watch along or anything

1131
00:59:14.760 --> 00:59:16.639
<v Speaker 5>like that. I want to also let you know that

1132
00:59:16.679 --> 00:59:18.360
<v Speaker 5>it's not always going to be the case. But we're

1133
00:59:18.360 --> 00:59:22.199
<v Speaker 5>mostly going to be recording on Thursdays at twelve o'clock

1134
00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:25.880
<v Speaker 5>Central time. Sometimes we're gonna do other times as well,

1135
00:59:25.880 --> 00:59:28.000
<v Speaker 5>but we're getting ready to sort of send out a

1136
00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:29.880
<v Speaker 5>newsletter and some other things. People can, like, you know,

1137
00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:32.719
<v Speaker 5>join our live conversations, send us feedback, whatever you want

1138
00:59:32.719 --> 00:59:35.719
<v Speaker 5>to do. All that's on the show notes. All that's

1139
00:59:35.719 --> 00:59:38.119
<v Speaker 5>gonna be on the website, the Ethical Pana dot com.

1140
00:59:38.199 --> 00:59:40.519
<v Speaker 5>Please think about becoming a member, Please think about supporting us,

1141
00:59:40.599 --> 00:59:43.159
<v Speaker 5>but more importantly, please remember we have