WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.279 Here's another show you can enjoy in the true story 2 00:00:02.359 --> 00:00:04.320 FM family of entertainment podcasts. 3 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:14.000 What's up, Supernatural, superfans. I'm Chrissy Lenz and I'm Nate McWorter, 4 00:00:14.359 --> 00:00:20.800 and we're the host of Gang Gang That Dream, a 5 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:23.480 supernatural drinking game podcast. 6 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:29.399 It's the podcast where we make up drinking game rules 7 00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:32.560 for our favorite episode of our favorite show, Supernatural. 8 00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:35.079 We recap the episode for you and let you know 9 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:36.640 how all the rules played out. 10 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:38.920 Then we let you know the drinking game rules from 11 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:41.079 the next episode so you can play along. 12 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:45.240 Plus members get every episode early and ad. 13 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:47.920 Free with some extra bonus content chit chat at the 14 00:00:47.960 --> 00:00:50.200 end of each episode as a member exclusive. 15 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:54.039 So download Gank That Drink, a supernatural drinking game podcast 16 00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:57.240 wherever the finest podcasts are available. 17 00:00:57.000 --> 00:01:00.240 And or become a member at true story dot fm. 18 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:01.560 Gosh, Gank that Drink. 19 00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:03.880 And when you're out there in the world saving people 20 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:04.760 and hunting. 21 00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:07.359 Things, you know the family business. 22 00:01:07.079 --> 00:01:10.120 Keep the Gank that Drink motto in mind, be excellent 23 00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:12.879 to each other and party yon. 24 00:01:13.159 --> 00:01:22.799 Dudes, Ever, wonder where the devil got his horns? 25 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:25.760 How about those clove and hoovers for that pitchforks an angel. 26 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:26.760 No he was a snake. 27 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:28.319 No he's the Great Red Drag. 28 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:29.680 No he's the beast. 29 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:30.760 He's the Prince of this. 30 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.400 World, Prince of Darkness, believes the Prince of dark Good Morning, 31 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:36.840 Star Lovelies. One of my names is Lester Ryan. 32 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:39.079 Clark, and I sometimes go by Keenan Dias. 33 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:40.959 And we're the hosts of the brand new podcast The 34 00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:44.400 Devil's Details. What comes to mind when I say Lucifer? 35 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:45.239 How about Satan? 36 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:47.840 What about just the Devil? How did the big bad 37 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:50.159 of the Western world end up with so many faces? 38 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:53.280 Join us as we dig up, decipher, and deconstruct the 39 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:54.719 Devil's many forms throughout his. 40 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:57.680 Take a guided tour with Dante through the Nine Circles of. 41 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:01.439 Hell, or revisit Satan's angsty bade in Paradise Loss. 42 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:04.519 Learn the ins and outs of a Faustian contract. 43 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:05.680 Easier than a ten ninety nine, but with a hell 44 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:06.680 of a lot more fine prance. 45 00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:09.599 Slither on over to The Devil's Details on True Story 46 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:12.080 FM and join us in the Diabolic discussion. 47 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:14.759 Love and His is Wah didn't Al Fachino play him 48 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:15.039 in a movie? 49 00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:15.639 They sure there wasn't. 50 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:16.879 Robert didn't there els one. 51 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:19.120 It was Timper, that was Elizabeth fur He go down 52 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:19.879 to Georgia. 53 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:20.560 And some related. 54 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:24.879 Hello and welcome to this rebroadcast episode of the Superhero 55 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:28.520 Ethics Podcast. As I've mentioned, we're on hiatus during September, 56 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:30.759 but we're showing you some of our old episodes that 57 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:32.520 we feel are still relevant to some of the great 58 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:35.360 conversations we've been having lately and other things going on. 59 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:38.439 In recent episodes, before we went on hiatus, Paul and 60 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:41.599 I were talking about the new Batman show, and so 61 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:43.240 as part of that, we wanted to give you a 62 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:46.639 chance to hear on episode about Batman The Long Halloween. 63 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:50.400 This is one of the classic Batman animated movies, relevant 64 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:52.240 to what's happening with the new show, relevant to the 65 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:54.319 things Paul and I were talking about, and of course 66 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:57.319 relevant now that we've turned the corner into spooky season. 67 00:02:57.800 --> 00:02:59.960 Please check it out, and of course, please continue to 68 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:02.000 be a fan of Superhero Ethics. Thank you so much. 69 00:03:02.439 --> 00:03:03.120 We have spoken. 70 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.280 Hello, Welcome to this episode of the Superhero Ethics Podcast. 71 00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:11.159 Today we're talking about a Batman animated story that appeared 72 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:13.719 on HBO, an animated movie based on a lot of 73 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:17.719 people's favorite comic run of Batman The Long Halloween. This 74 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:20.000 story you can see origins of the Dark Night in 75 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:23.199 you can see origins of the Batman with Robert Pattinson 76 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:25.000 and Paul Hoppy and I are gonna be diving into 77 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:26.240 it right after this commercial break. 78 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:27.159 We have no control over. 79 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:41.319 Welcome back. This is Matthew host Day. Then pronounce and Paul, 80 00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:43.039 this is a story that I know you have wanted 81 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.520 to talk about for a while, Batman The Long Halloween. 82 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:48.680 And just to give a quick explanation for folks, this 83 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:51.159 is an animated movie you can find on I think 84 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:53.800 it's an HBO plus primarily. There may be other ways 85 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:57.360 to get DC movies. DC Animation has been putting out 86 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:01.759 a ton of animated movies, primarily about Batman, some about Superman, 87 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:04.439 some about more of the Justice League in general that 88 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:06.520 aren't they talked about much, but that Paul has really 89 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:08.039 turned me on too. We've been having a lot of 90 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:10.680 fun going through them, and we're going to really have 91 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:12.560 a lot to talk about because it raises some of 92 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:15.960 the fundamental questions of Batman and the Batman stories. And 93 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:17.879 we'll tell you more about what the story is in 94 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:19.480 a second, but first, Paul, let me just have as 95 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:21.720 an intro, tell me more about like why it was 96 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:23.360 that you loved the story and why you wanted to 97 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:24.279 be what we talked about. 98 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:28.199 Yeah, so I don't really follow like what's coming out 99 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:32.879 when and stuff like that. But when Lee and I 100 00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:36.680 were at her mom's last year, you know, kind of 101 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:40.160 in the middle of moving we technically didn't really live 102 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:43.399 anywhere for like about a month, you know, and we 103 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:46.040 were on our way to Vegas. We were, you know, 104 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:52.120 browsing HBO Max and we're like, oh, there's this is out. 105 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:54.000 You know, maybe she actually knew it was out because 106 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.560 she like reads things in the news and whatever, but right, 107 00:04:58.439 --> 00:05:01.360 but so we just put it on and watched it 108 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:03.480 and it was like, oh, this this is really good. 109 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:05.480 And then it was like, wait, that was part one, 110 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:09.120 and then there's like a part two, and we watched 111 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:12.680 the part two, which you know, conveniently actually came out 112 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:17.360 the same day, which seems like it's interesting that they 113 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:20.040 broke it into two parts, and I guess we could 114 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.639 talk about that a little later, But basically, you know, 115 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:26.000 it's it's kind of like a three hour animated movie 116 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:28.920 that covers the span of a year. You know, from 117 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:33.639 Halloween to Halloween, and I just think it's the type 118 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:37.800 of Batman story that is like my favorite type of 119 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:43.439 Batman story and is fairly different from a large amount 120 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:47.480 of you know, other superhero fiction that we see on screen. 121 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:51.560 And then just the animation I think is fantastic, and 122 00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:57.959 in terms of story, I think DC's animation is overall, like, 123 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:02.040 on average, the best stuff they put out on screen, 124 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:07.079 you know, compared to say television non animated and then 125 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:08.399 like live action films. 126 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:11.759 And I think a large part of that is because 127 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:14.759 the bar is so much lower in a weird way, 128 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:17.879 and that they're not having to have this constant like 129 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:19.639 first of all, the budget is much lower, so they 130 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:21.800 don't need to justify the huge budget, they don't need 131 00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:25.040 to have a huge mass market appeal, and just I 132 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:26.920 think in some ways these movies are really helped by 133 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:29.839 mostly flying under the radar screen because they're not therefore 134 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:32.800 in the you know, well, how does this compare to 135 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:35.240 the other version of Batman, How does this compare to 136 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:37.120 the Marvel movie that's coming out at the same time, 137 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:40.600 How does this tie in all these things? It just 138 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:42.279 gets to be a story on its own in a 139 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:42.959 really great way. 140 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:46.560 Yeah, And I mean I think this is what you're saying. 141 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:49.040 But in terms of the bar being lower, I think 142 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:53.240 you mostly mean like, well, like financially right in terms 143 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:58.240 of like how much money something grosses. And I mean, 144 00:06:58.399 --> 00:06:59.399 I guess in terms of. 145 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:04.000 Said the bar is low, I was not quite. I meant. 146 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:06.480 I mean it's more that like the expect the outside 147 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:08.759 expectations that don't really have much to do with the 148 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:11.720 movie itself are mostly not there, right, and and. 149 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:16.920 Certainly the you know, broader population doesn't have expectations for what, 150 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:20.040 you know, the thing's going to look like. I do 151 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:22.879 think that there are a lot of people who are 152 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:30.120 really into animation DC, and you know specifically animated DC 153 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:33.160 that you know, occasionally something comes along and is highly 154 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:37.120 anticipated and is very disappointing to most people, like say 155 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:41.560 the Killing Joke, which I recently watched a thing about it, 156 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:43.959 and I was like, I was like, I feel like 157 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:46.360 like they're saying things about the animation. I think the 158 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:50.560 animation was fantastic. Like the the story, you know, there's 159 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:53.680 you know, you can have your issues with the story, sure, 160 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:57.639 you know, and in terms of how it was adapted precisely, 161 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:01.879 but but yeah, I mean, I think the expectations are 162 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:05.360 amongst a smaller group of people, I would say, and 163 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:09.360 you just don't have the same amplitude of you know, 164 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:13.480 the types of reviews that you're going to get and 165 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:17.720 the types of responses. So I think generally that's like 166 00:08:17.839 --> 00:08:23.560 healthier for anything someone's creating right where it's just like, yeah, 167 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:26.399 you get to do your thing. You get to say 168 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:28.279 this is what we want to do. You do it 169 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:30.680 the best you can, and then people will take it 170 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:34.440 as they do, as opposed to you know, having huge expectations. 171 00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:38.399 You know, it's like a team that wins a championship 172 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:40.840 and then the next year, you know, if if they're 173 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:43.399 like the runner up, then that's a disappointment somehow. 174 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:43.720 You know. 175 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:46.440 It's like I feel like that's how feature films or 176 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:49.639 like blockbusters are often treated. It's like, oh, well, is 177 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:51.639 this a disappointment compared to such and such. 178 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:52.919 It's like why why is that? 179 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:55.960 Even the conversation, you know, it's just like can't can't 180 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:57.840 the thing just like live on its own, like is 181 00:08:57.919 --> 00:08:59.039 this good? Is it not good? 182 00:08:59.120 --> 00:08:59.639 Do what you do? 183 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:02.279 Like I do not like it? And so I I 184 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:05.720 that's my very long winded way of saying yes, I 185 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:11.000 agree that I feel like this animation manages to not 186 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:13.559 be a victim of expectations. 187 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:16.519 And I think one part of that may be that 188 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:19.759 this is a lot more kind of day in the 189 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:22.840 life aspect to this we talked about on the last 190 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:25.519 podcast a little bit in terms of dread. Well, I'm 191 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:27.919 not sure what orders will come out in its right dread, 192 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:29.240 but not even. 193 00:09:29.080 --> 00:09:30.759 The day in the life, but like a year in 194 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:32.879 the life, a year in the life. 195 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:38.200 But also this is not part of a very fixed continuity, 196 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:40.519 and I think in some ways that really helps it, 197 00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:44.440 because like I love the MCU, I do like continuity, 198 00:09:45.080 --> 00:09:47.080 but I think part of what has gotten away from 199 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:49.679 is and I think in some ways, like the age 200 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:51.559 of the Internet makes this harder. But like there used 201 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:53.639 to be a lot of stories where it was okay, 202 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.000 we know who these characters are, and because we're going 203 00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:00.639 to tell you a story that isn't about a fundamentally 204 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:04.399 change moment in this character's life, it's just kind of 205 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:06.919 about like the character doing the thing the character does, 206 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:08.559 and a lot of other characters doing the things that 207 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:12.080 those characters do. It's okay that we don't know exactly 208 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:15.480 where this fits in time compared to this other version 209 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:17.279 of the story, or if it a little bit contradicts 210 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:19.320 that version of the story. It's just kind of a 211 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:23.519 standalone story using characters that we know well. I think 212 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:26.240 that's very hard to do in the MCU or like 213 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:29.720 you know, in the in DC. Now we have to 214 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:32.399 have long conversations about like, well, the Robert Pattinson Batman 215 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:35.080 doesn't exist in the same universe as like the Snyder 216 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:38.480 Verse or like this other thing, and we have specific 217 00:10:38.519 --> 00:10:41.320 about it because the animation has never been trying to 218 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:44.440 be part of one whole, unified universe. Like, yes, this 219 00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:47.279 movie does tell the hard beat Dent origin story, and 220 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:50.559 it does tell the death of Falcone, but it also 221 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:54.240 doesn't it doesn't make pretensions to sort of be like 222 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:57.039 a definitive story that everything else has to reference. And 223 00:10:57.159 --> 00:10:59.639 I think that really helps it just be its own thing. 224 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:05.320 Yeah, I agree. I do think that there are basically 225 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:08.919 there are like runs of comics right which will have 226 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:12.600 continuity with each other, and then often they'll have some 227 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:16.919 giant multiverse thing that's like okay, share whatever that like 228 00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:19.919 theoretically connects all of them, Like I think DC has 229 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:22.120 like fifty two universes exactly. 230 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:22.600 Yep. 231 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:28.000 But you'll get so, you know, and with the animated movies, 232 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:32.039 you got a series of them that you know, there 233 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:34.360 was this one run of them that I didn't love them, 234 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:36.039 you know, but they were kind of all in the 235 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:38.639 same style, and they kind of all had a continuity. 236 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:41.799 And then there's like the flashpoint story and then you know, 237 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:44.039 then it kind of reverts and then they just start 238 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:48.840 making a new continuity, right, And so you you do 239 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:51.679 get these kind of series, but I don't think there's 240 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:55.679 ever this sense of this is the you know, definitive 241 00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:00.279 version of these characters, right. It's it's like this series 242 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:04.600 of interpretations. And you know this story, as you mentioned, 243 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:09.960 the Dark Knight borrowed from it. The Batman borrows from it, right, 244 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:15.440 quite heavily. I mean I think I somewhat jokingly referred 245 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:20.960 to the Batman movie as the short Halloween, because yes, right, 246 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:22.600 it has so much from this. But it's a week 247 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:26.440 instead of a year, which for a for a live 248 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:29.679 action feature film, I think a week or a day 249 00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:32.360 or two or three days I find usually the perfect 250 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:35.679 length of time. I think really extended movies don't work 251 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.120 that well. The reason this works well to me is that, 252 00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:45.240 you know, the principal plot revolves around holiday, this like 253 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:51.919 person who murders people on holidays, and each scene or 254 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:55.840 each sequence, basically the movies are broken up into segments 255 00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:58.720 that are each kind of like one day, right, and 256 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:01.720 it'll be just a series of of holidays. So it's 257 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:05.440 basically like twelve days played across three hours. So you 258 00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:08.799 essentially maybe get twelve fifteen minute segments more or less. 259 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:13.519 A couple of them are shorter, but yeah, I think 260 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:17.320 the fact that there isn't this weight of continuity on 261 00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:21.399 this really lets it breathe more and lets them One 262 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:23.360 of the things I really enjoyed here is that they 263 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:27.799 have so many members of the Rogues Gallery in it, right, 264 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:30.799 and they're able to be bit players and you can 265 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:33.120 kind of do whatever you want with them, and it 266 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:36.240 doesn't feel like, oh, but that's not that character. It's like, no, 267 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:39.600 that's that's this version of that character. And if I 268 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:41.840 didn't like any of the versions of them, like, it 269 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:44.039 wouldn't have felt like such a big deal. I didn't 270 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.559 really dislike any of the versions of them. Particularly, you know, 271 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:49.120 there's a few things about like, well, why is Ivy 272 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:52.039 like always working for someone else, she's like the most 273 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:55.080 powerful of all these people and whatever, you know, Like, 274 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:57.240 so she doesn't have the depth that I'd like to 275 00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:00.440 see in her character. But like that's okay, because this 276 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:03.360 isn't like the Poison Ivy. It's like, it's just Poison 277 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.600 Ivy in this one thing and she's a small part 278 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:07.480 of it, and like that's fine. And there's a lot 279 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:10.480 of characters like the Joker, you know, similarly, is this 280 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:13.240 kind of minor character in this story that just it 281 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:15.639 makes it feel like it's Gotham. It makes it feel 282 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:19.200 like there's this depth and there's this breadth without feeling 283 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.120 like it's trying to be the defining version of anything. 284 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:24.279 And I just find that really pleasant. 285 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:26.559 I think that's a really good way to put it. 286 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:28.200 And it kind of addresses something that you and I 287 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:30.320 have always talked about, which is that the part of 288 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:35.200 the problem with these larger, interconnected universes is that it 289 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.559 doesn't make sense that a whole bunch of people never 290 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:40.159 show up. And yet, you know, if you have a 291 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:42.679 story where it would make sense for Captain America to 292 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:44.200 show up for five minutes, but you don't have the 293 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:47.039 budget for Christopher Evans to do you know four days 294 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:49.720 of shooting to get hit those five minutes, it's hard 295 00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:52.000 to make it happen. But here you can do that. 296 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:55.200 And I will fill in the details of what the 297 00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:59.120 actual story is in a second, but it's it's as 298 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:02.799 Paul said, there's stuff that's happening, and so at various 299 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:06.360 points in time, different characters make appearances, and in many 300 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:09.840 cases it makes sense why they're showing up for various reasons, 301 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:12.240 or another, as you said, some less something's just because 302 00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:14.360 someone involved has hired them, and it's like, oh, okay, 303 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:17.200 that's fine. But like the Joker was my favorites because 304 00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:20.879 the Joker, Like the minute the Joker shows up, a 305 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:22.840 part of me thinks, oh okay, so this is actually 306 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:24.919 a Joker plot on some level, and it's like, no, 307 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:29.080 the Joker's just mad that this other villain is getting 308 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:32.480 so much of the headlines and attention. So the Joker's like, no, 309 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:34.120 I got to try and fix this. I got to 310 00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:36.480 try to make it all about me. And it literally 311 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:39.799 winds up just like gas attacking a thing that half 312 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:41.399 the city is going to be at. Because this is 313 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:43.960 the Joker says like, yeah, there's a fifty percent chance 314 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:45.480 that one of the random people I kill will be 315 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.159 this guy, and then that way I don't have I'm 316 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:51.240 not losing the attention. And it fits so perfectly for 317 00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:54.120 the Joker, and it gives Batman a chance to deal 318 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:55.840 with a Joker, but it isn't a Joker story and 319 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:57.200 Joker doesn't take over the story. 320 00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:00.919 Yeah, totally. And yeah, and it just does that with 321 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:03.559 a whole lot of characters, right, Yeah. 322 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:05.840 Do you want to try giving a brief summary of 323 00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:07.720 the story and so that we kind of fill things 324 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:08.759 in as we go or do you want me to 325 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:09.200 try to do that. 326 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:13.600 Yeah, I'll give a brief summary first of all. Just 327 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:15.919 in terms of the feel of the story, I want 328 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:18.159 to say that like, it's a story where Batman does 329 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:21.000 Batman things, but it doesn't really feel like it's a 330 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:25.200 story about Batman doing Batman things, you know, like like big, 331 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.679 you know, gadgety, like huge fight scenes and stuff like 332 00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:31.360 that's in there, but that's not the focus. It's really 333 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:35.120 it's a mystery detective story. And it's also less of 334 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:38.720 a story about Batman being a great detective and more 335 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:43.480 about Batman becoming a great detective. And the basic premise 336 00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:48.320 is Carmine Falconi is like the big mob boss in 337 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:51.080 the city. And then there's also Maroni, right, who's like 338 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:58.080 his main competition. And someone kills Falconi's nephew on Halloween, 339 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:05.640 who actually was about to testify against Falconi, right against Carmine, 340 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:10.680 And so the the whole thing has this you know, 341 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:18.279 Harvey Dent, James Gordon Batman, you know, trio of characters 342 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:22.240 doing that whole dark night trying to bring down the 343 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:28.279 Gotham mob, right, which is like this very traditional mafia situation. 344 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:35.000 And throughout basically throughout the year, on every holiday or 345 00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:38.839 on one holiday per month, basically somebody comes and kills someone, 346 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:45.039 usually part of Falcone's crime family, right, or family, actually 347 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.680 not even they they kill someone who's who's not really 348 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:50.799 part of the crime family, who he doesn't want to 349 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:54.079 be part of the crime family. But so it feels 350 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:58.480 like it's this you know, something against Falconi. Right. Meanwhile, 351 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.759 there are all of these you know, costumed villains locked 352 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:10.200 up in Arkham, and at various points, various ones of 353 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:14.440 them get free, right. And actually I would say that 354 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.240 this is the story of if you look at kind 355 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:20.240 of the over story, the overarching thing. This is the 356 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:24.960 story of how Gotham goes from being you know, basically 357 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:28.640 like a mobbed up town to a costumed villain town. 358 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:32.559 And there's a clear distinction between the two in a 359 00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:35.160 way that's really interesting, especially in the respective of it. 360 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:38.880 In some ways, the traditional kind of like you find 361 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:42.559 him in any you know, Godfather Goodfellow's movie, criminals are 362 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:44.839 a lot worse or a lot scarier in some ways. 363 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:48.759 Right exactly. And the I think also like you could 364 00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:50.480 kind of look at it in the like D and 365 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:55.160 D alignment sort of fashion, where it's like, you know, 366 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:58.920 you've got Harvey Dent and James Gordon, who are trying 367 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:03.039 to be lawful good, right, and then you have organized crime, 368 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:07.119 which is lawful evil. And then you have you know, 369 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.720 the Joker and people like the Joker, which is like 370 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:14.599 chaotic evil. And then you have Batman, who's like chaotic good, 371 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:17.200 but everybody's kind of trying to work with someone else 372 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:18.640 to further their own ends. 373 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:22.599 And you know Catwoman, who's chaotic. Catwoman who's like somewhere 374 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:24.160 chaotic neutral, chaotic good. 375 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:28.480 Exactly, and like, yeah, in this she's more of you know, 376 00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:31.200 she's more basically just like an anti hero like Batman, 377 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:36.000 you know, right, there are a lot of similarities between 378 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:41.559 this catwoman and the Batman catwoman, and you know, at 379 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:43.920 the end of it, not not to give away necessarily 380 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:47.680 the final story, because I feel like we could kind 381 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:51.720 of cover this without saying, you know who, what the 382 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:54.319 actual answer to the mystery is. But it's basically, you know, 383 00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:57.680 there's a serial killer, and it's about Batman and others 384 00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:00.279 trying to figure out who that is while all this 385 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:02.400 other stuff goes on at the same time. 386 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:05.480 Right, Yeah, I think it's some point I do want 387 00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:06.720 to say who it is. I think there's some really 388 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:09.039 interesting after questions around that that gets into some of 389 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:10.880 the things, but we can have kind of like that'll 390 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:12.839 be on a spoiler section later. Okay, that sounds good 391 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:15.559 for sure, because yeah, I think you're right. I want 392 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:16.960 to talk about just some of the different parts of 393 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:19.200 it that I most enjoyed and the questions that kind 394 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:21.079 of raises it. You know, it's funny we're talking about this. 395 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:23.799 This will probably come out a couple of weeks after 396 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:27.839 our episode on Dread. We have recorded it very recently. 397 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:31.559 After recording the episode on Dread, the movie about I 398 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:33.960 keep wanting to say, Judge dread, but that's the Stone version. 399 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:39.200 This is the urban version. But the movie deals with 400 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:41.359 a lot of the same issues that does, and it's 401 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:44.279