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<v Speaker 1>Jay, Dayah, it is wonderful to have you back. Thank

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<v Speaker 1>you so much for joining us.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Maria. I always enjoy our conversation, so I'm

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<v Speaker 2>glad to be back.

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<v Speaker 1>Likewise, I have to say, you know, since we met

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<v Speaker 1>in person last year and did our book review of

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<v Speaker 1>Orthodoxy in the Religion of the Future, we had a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of good feedback on that and a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people interested in this topic. I recently conducted an interview

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<v Speaker 1>with an Orthodox priest and I want to I really

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<v Speaker 1>want to focus on this subject with you today. I

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<v Speaker 1>know that we've touched on this in the past, Jay,

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<v Speaker 1>but viewers may not be aware of your previous life

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<v Speaker 1>and your transition into Orthodoxy. So if you will just

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<v Speaker 1>take people through a little bit of that history and

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<v Speaker 1>you realizing that the Orthodox Church was the one true church.

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<v Speaker 2>I was raised a Southern Baptist and was nominal. I

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<v Speaker 2>mean we would go some here and there, and then

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<v Speaker 2>got more serious about religion in my high school period.

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<v Speaker 2>My senior year, I started going to a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>evangelical Bible studies and church meetings and decided I would

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<v Speaker 2>study the history of the church more in depth. I

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<v Speaker 2>got into theology and philosophy when I was eighteen nineteen,

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<v Speaker 2>started studying that at the academic level for college, and

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<v Speaker 2>then continued studying that in a related way in grad school,

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<v Speaker 2>not so much the theology per se, but worldviews and

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<v Speaker 2>the idea of what we call worldview warfare, and how

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<v Speaker 2>systems and worldviews and paradigms work in people's as the

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<v Speaker 2>models of people's belief systems. And then in my twenties

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<v Speaker 2>I decided that Protestantism didn't really have a lot to offer,

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<v Speaker 2>so I got really interested in the history of the Church,

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<v Speaker 2>as I said, and at that time, a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the online discussion for the debates in their sphere were

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<v Speaker 2>basically just Protestant and Catholics. I didn't know about the

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<v Speaker 2>Orthodox Church in my twenties. I wasn't averse to it,

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<v Speaker 2>I just didn't know much about it, and so I

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<v Speaker 2>thought the debate was basically just Protestant versus Catholics. So

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<v Speaker 2>I became a Roman Catholic in two thousand and three,

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<v Speaker 2>I believe, and was in that world for eight or

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<v Speaker 2>nine years, and a lot of I think when you

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<v Speaker 2>live that for a while, you start to notice there's

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<v Speaker 2>some pretty significant problems. But you don't want to jump

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<v Speaker 2>ship too quick. So I attended the traditional Latin Mass

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<v Speaker 2>for many years, and I was really into Thomas Aquinas

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<v Speaker 2>and Tomistic philosophy and trying to be as traditionally minded

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<v Speaker 2>as possible. As the Vatican continued to be more and

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<v Speaker 2>more liberal, and eventually I just felt like there weren't

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<v Speaker 2>solid answers to the questions that I had as Roman Catholic,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I started studying Orthodoxy in about two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and seven. I made some friends that were Orthodox, and

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<v Speaker 2>they recommended a lot of books. I was seeing a

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<v Speaker 2>girl at the time and we were considering both with

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<v Speaker 2>entering the Orthodox Church. At the same time, we were

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<v Speaker 2>probably going to be married, so I went through the

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<v Speaker 2>catechumen even back then and decided not to convert. So

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<v Speaker 2>I held off and decided I would just kind of wait.

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't really ready. I have so many, so much

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<v Speaker 2>theological ideological baggage from my previous beliefs as a Roman Catholic,

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<v Speaker 2>that it took me a really long time to work

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<v Speaker 2>through a lot of the issues. So I just held

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<v Speaker 2>off and kind of got burned out even on going

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<v Speaker 2>to church and going to the sort of standard Catholic services,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was a little wild for those years in

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<v Speaker 2>my late twenties early thirties, and then by about mid thirties,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess I started getting a little more serious and

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<v Speaker 2>getting back into reading a lot of philosophy texts, reading

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of certain church fathers like Saint Maximistic Professor

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<v Speaker 2>and certain Orthodox theologians like Vladimir Lawski or Father Dmitri

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<v Speaker 2>stun Eloy. They stand out out as books that really

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<v Speaker 2>writers that really influenced me to eventually convert. So about

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<v Speaker 2>twenty fourteen I was getting more serious and kind of

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<v Speaker 2>going back to church, and I guess it was about

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<v Speaker 2>twenty seventeen that I went back into being catechumen and

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<v Speaker 2>formally joined. So twenty seventeen catechumen. I think I was

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<v Speaker 2>Chris made in twenty eighteen. So yeah, So that was

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<v Speaker 2>my short form journey during the period when I wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>really to go into church in my late twenties and

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<v Speaker 2>early thirties. I didn't become an atheist. I think a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of people have atheists phases or something, but I

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<v Speaker 2>more so was just reading a lot of different perennial

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<v Speaker 2>text neoplatonic stuff. So I wasn't atheist, but I was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of interested in a lot of different positions. And yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I would say Father Stefrom Rose two had an important

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<v Speaker 2>impact as well. His book Nihilism Roots of the Modern

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<v Speaker 2>Revolution impacted me pretty significantly, probably in twenty fIF teen sixteen.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's the short version of and then here we

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<v Speaker 2>are today, where you know, I've spent a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>time kind of discussing orthodox philosophy and theology for the

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<v Speaker 2>last five or six years.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I watch her debates all the time. We love

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<v Speaker 1>your content here at Z Media. We encourage everyone to

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<v Speaker 1>check out Jay's YouTube channel and his website. I'll bring

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<v Speaker 1>all of that up throughout throughout the interview, But yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>Jayson in our lounge room regularly, so.

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<v Speaker 2>I appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course. I find, you know, some of the arguments.

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<v Speaker 1>It's interesting because I think it's really easy to say

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<v Speaker 1>not easy, and I'm not in any way diminishing those

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<v Speaker 1>who do it, but I think it's easy to debate

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<v Speaker 1>atheists in the sense that the atheist worldview just doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>make sense. It doesn't make sense. There's no it's illogical,

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<v Speaker 1>it's unscientific. And I'm talking about like say, double evolutionists,

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<v Speaker 1>like it's to me, you know, you are placing your

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<v Speaker 1>blind faith in a theory that has never been proven,

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<v Speaker 1>the same way that someone with a religion in a

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<v Speaker 1>belief in a god would. I mean, that's the way

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<v Speaker 1>that I've always viewed it. And so, you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>used to do People may not know this. I was,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, in the Evangelical Church for many years, used

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<v Speaker 1>to do street ministry, you know, talking with people on

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<v Speaker 1>the street of people of all worldviews, very very highly

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<v Speaker 1>Muslim populated area, so I got to talk to a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of Muslims as well. It was great. I loved it.

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<v Speaker 1>I loved doing it because I love people and I

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<v Speaker 1>loved discussing world views, and so that was something I

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<v Speaker 1>was very passionate about. But it was from an Evangelical stance.

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<v Speaker 1>And then it was really during the COVID era that

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<v Speaker 1>I returned to Orthodoxy, which is you know, I was

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<v Speaker 1>baptized Orthodox as a child, and really you know, spent

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<v Speaker 1>a few years there. It was about eight years in

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<v Speaker 1>the Evangelical Church, so long time. And and and you

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<v Speaker 1>know what I've found, Jay was a lot of unlearning

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<v Speaker 1>has happened since that time of what I thought was

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<v Speaker 1>correct doctrine, what I thought was correct theology, and there

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<v Speaker 1>were a lot of sticking points for me, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>coming to realize the truth about Orthodoxy that exist for

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of Protestants these days. When I talk to

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<v Speaker 1>my friends from my former church and I've returned to Orthodoxy,

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<v Speaker 1>they think that I've become an idolator, an image worshiper,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, all of this kind of stuff. So I

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<v Speaker 1>want to focus on that with you, in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>the you know, the common misconceptions or the common arguments

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<v Speaker 1>that a lot of Protestants bring up. You know, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>you worship saints. Let's just start with the biggest one.

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<v Speaker 2>I think these are pretty common objections. You know, everybody

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<v Speaker 2>has faces, especially if you have an atheist or excuse me,

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<v Speaker 2>a biblical or evangelical background, You're going to have some

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<v Speaker 2>of these roadblocks where there's stuff that seems foreign an

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<v Speaker 2>odd and in that case, it's it's interesting that a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of times atheists that convert typically maybe might even

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<v Speaker 2>have less baggage because you know, they weren't hammered into,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, thinking for many years that any kind of

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<v Speaker 2>imagery is somehow inherently idolatrous. But yeah, I remember I

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<v Speaker 2>kind of worked through a lot of those issues back

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<v Speaker 2>when I was, you know, in my early twenties kind

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<v Speaker 2>of sussing out between protest and Catholic, And I remember

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<v Speaker 2>going to a church and seeing relics for the first time,

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<v Speaker 2>and I remember thinking it was a little odd. It

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<v Speaker 2>never really experienced that being you know, raised Baptists. But

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<v Speaker 2>the logic of it is pretty solid if you you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if you're familiar with the Old Testament, especially because we

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<v Speaker 2>have stories where the bones of Elisha, right, that people

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<v Speaker 2>get raised from the dead because they're exposed to those bones.

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<v Speaker 2>In the Book of Back, we see you know, Paul

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<v Speaker 2>casting out demons through you know, cloths that he that

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<v Speaker 2>he had, that we're part, that we're near his body.

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<v Speaker 2>We see Jesus's garments heal people, and so physical matter

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<v Speaker 2>has the ability to take on the power or what

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<v Speaker 2>we call the divine energies and the Orthodox sphere. So

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<v Speaker 2>when I think, when we start to understand it from

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<v Speaker 2>that perspective, that the point is that we would be

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<v Speaker 2>participants in the divine energies, and that we ourselves in

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<v Speaker 2>our bodies, even not just our minds or our souls,

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<v Speaker 2>but our bodies become participants in the divine life as well,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's the point of the resurrection. The resurrection is

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<v Speaker 2>really the future eschatological end times reality that begins in

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<v Speaker 2>the here and the now with the energies that we

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<v Speaker 2>were take of in this life, and those divine energies

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<v Speaker 2>are really just what we mean the Orthocers by grace.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's an uncreated life, power and reality that comes

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<v Speaker 2>to us not by our works, but by the grace

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<v Speaker 2>of God. That's what we participate in. So it's a

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<v Speaker 2>much it's more fleshed out, I guess you could say

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<v Speaker 2>metaphysical notion of what grace is, rather than the typical

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<v Speaker 2>Protestant idea that grace is just God's disposition towards you.

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<v Speaker 2>So we do agree that there is a dispositional element

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<v Speaker 2>that you move away from being kind of adverse to

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<v Speaker 2>God to now being the friend of God or to

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<v Speaker 2>being sons of God, et cetera. But to be in

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<v Speaker 2>that role requires also the transformation of the person in

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<v Speaker 2>a real metaphysical sense. So that's our view of grace

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<v Speaker 2>and what it is. And you know, we see that

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<v Speaker 2>in text like John seventeen, where Jesus says that he

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<v Speaker 2>came to give us a share in the glory that

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<v Speaker 2>he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course glory, God's glory is not a creature, right,

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<v Speaker 2>it's an uncreated reality. So we become partakers of the

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<v Speaker 2>uncreated reality of God without participating in the divine essence itself.

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<v Speaker 2>So we'll never become by nature what God is, but

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<v Speaker 2>we do become like God by grace, and that's what

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<v Speaker 2>we call theosis. And so that's the essence interview distinction

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<v Speaker 2>that you probably hear a lot of people in Orthodox

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<v Speaker 2>Church talk about. That's our conception of grace, and it

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<v Speaker 2>also underlies the conception that we have of why would

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<v Speaker 2>we why we would ask saints to intercede or believe that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, relics or icons have the ability to be

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<v Speaker 2>positive influences in our life in a conduit of grace sense,

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<v Speaker 2>so they become kind of sacramental realities for us. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's all premised on the incarnation itself. Right, you have

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<v Speaker 2>the second person of the Godhead, the Logos, assuming human nature,

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<v Speaker 2>and by that very action of assuming it, healing it,

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<v Speaker 2>repairing it, and making it itself a channel of grace.

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<v Speaker 2>So Likewise, other physical material objects can also become channels

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<v Speaker 2>of grace. So we don't worship them because they're material

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<v Speaker 2>in themselves. They're still creatures, but those creatures can become

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<v Speaker 2>condos of grace, just as we can as individual people,

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<v Speaker 2>and our bodies even become conduits. And so that's the

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<v Speaker 2>theological meaning behind relics, and that's why relics existed in

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<v Speaker 2>the Old Testament and they continue to exist into the

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<v Speaker 2>New Testament Church. And it's the same principle behind why

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<v Speaker 2>For example, in the Book of Revelation, if you read

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<v Speaker 2>chapters five to eight, when John sees into heaven, he

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<v Speaker 2>sees a very elaborate, ornate worship service. In that liturgical

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<v Speaker 2>worship service, it's very ordered, smells, bells, incense, vestiments, elders, right,

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<v Speaker 2>priesthood offering, sacrifice going on in heaven. We believe that

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<v Speaker 2>that's actually the exact same service going on in the

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<v Speaker 2>Orthodox Church. And so that's why it's a reality. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not just symbols for us. It's a symbol and a

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<v Speaker 2>reality at the same time. And so likewise, we can

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<v Speaker 2>ask those people who have gone on before us in

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<v Speaker 2>the life of the Church to pray for us. So

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<v Speaker 2>technically speaking, we're not praying to them like their God.

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<v Speaker 2>We're asking them as fellow intercessors to pray. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>why in the Book of Revelation, John sees the martyrs

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<v Speaker 2>offering the prayers of the saints on the earth, and

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<v Speaker 2>so that's the whole principle behind the intercession of the

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<v Speaker 2>saints right there.

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<v Speaker 1>So the I guess the I don't know if I'm

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<v Speaker 1>the pre true rapture. People would argue that those people

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<v Speaker 1>that have been martyred that are praying are those that

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<v Speaker 1>you know, were left behind and then ended up being

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<v Speaker 1>persecuted during the reign of the Antichrist, and therefore that's

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<v Speaker 1>who they are. They're not actually the saints is as

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<v Speaker 1>per the Orthodox Church. Then you'll have the people that say, well,

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<v Speaker 1>there is one intercessor or one mediator, I should say,

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<v Speaker 1>between God and men, Jesus Christ. Why would you pray

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<v Speaker 1>to a saint?

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<v Speaker 2>Right, So a lot of verses have to be balanced

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<v Speaker 2>with other verses. So, for example, Paul says things like

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<v Speaker 2>I think to Timothy, he says, if you follow my teachings,

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<v Speaker 2>you will be able to save those around you. So

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<v Speaker 2>that doesn't mean that Timothy literally becomes Jesus and becomes

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<v Speaker 2>a savior. It means that he's a cooperator, a co worker,

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<v Speaker 2>as Paul says about himself, that he's a co worker

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<v Speaker 2>with Christ to bring people to salvation. And so sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>in the technical theological terminology this is just called middle salvation,

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<v Speaker 2>and it just means that the person that brings you

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<v Speaker 2>to salvation is in a sense a savior for you.

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<v Speaker 2>Doesn't mean that they are literally Jesus. It just means

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<v Speaker 2>that they cooperated in that work. You read the Book

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<v Speaker 2>of Amos, for example, this is an idea even in

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<v Speaker 2>the Old Testament, that God decides not to met out

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<v Speaker 2>the full punishment on Israel because Amos interceded. So intercession

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<v Speaker 2>is something that's very real in those examples. And again,

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<v Speaker 2>the saints that are in heaven are not what John

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<v Speaker 2>is seeing is not the martyrs at the end of

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<v Speaker 2>the world. He's seeing the people that were martyred in

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<v Speaker 2>his day. So if you look at the Book of Revelation,

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<v Speaker 2>it starts by saying the things that are listed are

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<v Speaker 2>to come to pass. And the traditional acts of Jesus

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<v Speaker 2>of the Church was never strictly speaking, anything like pre tribulation,

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<v Speaker 2>rapture pre millennialism that exist as an early theory, but

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<v Speaker 2>by the time of the Second Ecumenical Council, and then

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<v Speaker 2>by the Third Ecumenical Council, it's excluded. And that's why

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<v Speaker 2>the Creed says, whose kingdom shall have no end? So

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<v Speaker 2>christ Kingdom is not a thousand year kingdom. A thousand

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<v Speaker 2>years is just as symbolic as when it says God

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<v Speaker 2>owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Does that mean

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<v Speaker 2>that on thousand on hill one thousand and one that's

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<v Speaker 2>not owned by God. No, it's just a symbolic time

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<v Speaker 2>that expresses a really long ay honor era. And so

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<v Speaker 2>christ Kingdom, as you notice in the Gospels, is where

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<v Speaker 2>the king is. And so Jesus says, the Kingdom of

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<v Speaker 2>God has not come with signs, it comes it's within you.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the kingdom is an internal spiritual reality wherever

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<v Speaker 2>the Holy Spirit is. So the Kingdom is the Church.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's why Matthew sixteen he identifies it as the

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<v Speaker 2>institution that he sets up that the gates of Hell

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<v Speaker 2>would not prevail against it. And Peter and the Apostles,

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<v Speaker 2>not just Peter, but Peter and the Apostles very Matthew

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<v Speaker 2>sixteen and Matthew eighteen have a collegial reality that is

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<v Speaker 2>identified with the Kingdom. The kingdom is chaired by the

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<v Speaker 2>princes of the New Covenant, who Jesus later when he

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<v Speaker 2>institutes the Lord's Supper, says, you will sit with me

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<v Speaker 2>on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>the twelve Tribes of Israel is the new Israel. The

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<v Speaker 2>spiritual reality that Matthew twenty two, twenty three, and twenty

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<v Speaker 2>four elucidate replaced the Old Testament Israel reality. So there's

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<v Speaker 2>something evil inherently about Israel in the Old Testament sense,

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<v Speaker 2>or not genetically evil or anything like that. It was

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<v Speaker 2>a typological reality that's fulfilled in the spiritual kingdom of

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<v Speaker 2>the Church. But spiritual, as many evangelicals think, does not

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<v Speaker 2>mean anti physical, it doesn't mean antihistorical. It's a very

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<v Speaker 2>historic institutional reality that's set up at the time of

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<v Speaker 2>christ first coming. And the other element that I think

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<v Speaker 2>evangelicals of Protestants oftentimes miss out on is the notion

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<v Speaker 2>of Pentecost. Pentecost, especially if you look in Acts two

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<v Speaker 2>and when it cites Joel three, Joel is not primarily

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<v Speaker 2>talking about the end of the world. It might have

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<v Speaker 2>an application to the end of the world. But when

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<v Speaker 2>Acts two cites Joel about the Holy the Spirit will

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<v Speaker 2>fall upon your descendants and your men, your women, your

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<v Speaker 2>children will see visions, there'll be signs in the heavens.

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<v Speaker 2>That's all fulfilled explicitly at Pentecost, and so the First

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<v Speaker 2>Advent is typically where the locus of the action is.

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<v Speaker 2>That most evangelicals and pre millennialists boot to the end

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<v Speaker 2>of the world, which makes all of these important prophecies

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<v Speaker 2>and fulfillments irrelevant. Because if Jesus is predicting in Luke

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<v Speaker 2>twenty one the destruction of Jerusalem in seventy eighty, then

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<v Speaker 2>what a powerful attestation to the veracity of the Gospels

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<v Speaker 2>that is fulfilled in seventy eight. Now I don't mean everything.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't believe the second Coming, but you'll find many,

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<v Speaker 2>many passages where Jesus says that he would come, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>on the clouds, and that he would punish you know, Israel,

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<v Speaker 2>and so forth. Again. Luke twenty one, because it's written

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<v Speaker 2>to a product to a gentile audience, is a lot

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<v Speaker 2>more specific than what you get in Matthew twenty four.

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<v Speaker 2>So Lake twenty one describes it in a very clear

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<v Speaker 2>way that when you speakin to the audience there in

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<v Speaker 2>Jesus presence, see Jerusalem surrounded by enemies, know that it's time,

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<v Speaker 2>its desolation is near. That's exactly what happened a few

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<v Speaker 2>decades later, because he describes this for his immediate audience,

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<v Speaker 2>that they would see these things occur. And that's why,

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's Athenacious, or whether it's Saint John Chrysostom, or

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's Saint Cyril of Alexandria, all the earliest, really

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<v Speaker 2>important theologians of the Church, the ones that solidified the

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<v Speaker 2>doctrine of the Trinity, the doctrine of Christology for us,

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<v Speaker 2>they all believe that that was referring to seventy eight.

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't primarily make it about the end of the world.

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<v Speaker 2>I do think that seventy eight and the destruction of

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<v Speaker 2>the Temple, which is what Hebrews is talking about, that's

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<v Speaker 2>the end of the Old Covenant system, which is demonstrated

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<v Speaker 2>by the events of seventy eight when Titus Vespasian destroys

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<v Speaker 2>the Temple in Jerusalem. That's a sign that the Old

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<v Speaker 2>Covenants done the New Covenant is here. The New Coven

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<v Speaker 2>is the fulfillment of all those old Covenant types, and

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<v Speaker 2>the New Coven is the reality. So what Protestanism Evangelicalism

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<v Speaker 2>typically does, and it's not always intentional, is that rather

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<v Speaker 2>than accepting the realities that the New Covenant brings, they

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<v Speaker 2>typically want to go back to the symbolic structure of

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<v Speaker 2>the Old Testament. Oh, Baptism just a symbol, the Lord's

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<v Speaker 2>Supper just a symbol, right. The church is just this

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<v Speaker 2>fallible human institution. That's a symbol, you know. And the

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<v Speaker 2>New Testament, the Church is said to be the body

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<v Speaker 2>of the god Man or the theanthroposts, the god Man,

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<v Speaker 2>that's the body of Christ. We are the extension of

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<v Speaker 2>the incarnation the churches. So there's not a whole lot

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<v Speaker 2>of churches that can lay claim to that. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you look at the study of the first thousand years

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<v Speaker 2>of Christianity, and there is one institution that's the Orthodox

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<v Speaker 2>Church at least least claim to that.

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<v Speaker 1>When did Because church history matters a lot, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>often something that you know, in Protestant circles, we need

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<v Speaker 1>to return to the Book of Acts, we need to

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<v Speaker 1>return to that time where there was you know, miracles,

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<v Speaker 1>and the church was, you know, sold everything, they have

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<v Speaker 1>gave everything. It was interesting. I remember chalaging good pastor

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<v Speaker 1>of this a while ago, and I said, well, the

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<v Speaker 1>church isn't really operating how it used to. And the

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<v Speaker 1>response to me was, we'll sell everything you have and

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<v Speaker 1>give it to me and then see how we operate,

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<v Speaker 1>which was a fair challenge. But you know, you hear

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<v Speaker 1>that from a lot of evangelicals, and we need to

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<v Speaker 1>return to the Book of Acts and all of this

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<v Speaker 1>sort of stuff. And yet if you read the Book

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<v Speaker 1>of Acts through a non Protestant lens, you'll actually see

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<v Speaker 1>the established of the original church and so all the

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<v Speaker 1>beginnings of it. So can you talk us through the

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<v Speaker 1>history of the establishment of the church? Why is the

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<v Speaker 1>Orthodox Church the original Church?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, if we look in the Book of Acts, we see,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, Judas, his episcopos in the Greek is replaced.

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<v Speaker 2>So when Judas dies, someone replaces him in his seat.

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<v Speaker 2>And so this is the idea of the successors to

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<v Speaker 2>the apostles, or apsolute succession. And we find this in

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<v Speaker 2>Paul's epistles as well, that Paul says he laid hands

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<v Speaker 2>on Timothy and he tells Timothy not to lay hands

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<v Speaker 2>on anyone else in Ephesus hastily, because through the laying

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<v Speaker 2>on of hands, you have the transmission of the gift

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<v Speaker 2>and power of the Holy Spirit for the office of

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<v Speaker 2>the bishop. And that is not in Protestants, and Protestism

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<v Speaker 2>does not have a right or a theology typically where

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<v Speaker 2>they recognize any sort of historic succession, do they laying

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<v Speaker 2>on of hands back to the apostles. But that's exactly

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<v Speaker 2>what Paul says in his epistles to Timothy, and he

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<v Speaker 2>says basically that I point, did you no one else

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<v Speaker 2>to be the authority, my representative, my successor in Ephesus,

388
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<v Speaker 2>and you do Likewise, that's apisodic succession. So that's our

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<v Speaker 2>reading not just of the Book of Acts, but also

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<v Speaker 2>the book the Books that Paul wrote. And if we

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<v Speaker 2>look at the Book of Acts, we see this point

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<v Speaker 2>that I mentioned earlier about Pentecost, which is that in

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<v Speaker 2>John fourteen to sixteen, Jesus really lays out the role

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<v Speaker 2>of the Holy Spirit in the life and history of

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<v Speaker 2>the Church. So if we understand this is a real

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<v Speaker 2>historical context here where Jesus is saying that I will

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<v Speaker 2>send the Holy Spirit. He will come and empower you.

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<v Speaker 2>I will never leave you and never forsake you. The

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<v Speaker 2>Spirit will lead you and guide you to all truth.

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<v Speaker 2>The gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church.

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<v Speaker 2>Then when that happens in Acts two, that historical church

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<v Speaker 2>can't lose. The Spirit can't lose, the faith can't be conquered.

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<v Speaker 2>There might be areas or churches that are part of

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<v Speaker 2>the universal Church that fall away, even patriarch's bishops fall away,

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<v Speaker 2>but the whole entire entity can't fail. And so that's

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<v Speaker 2>why we believe that the Orthodox Church has maintained and

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<v Speaker 2>continued that consistent testimony. And when you read the first

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<v Speaker 2>thousand years, you find out that you know, one of

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<v Speaker 2>the common Protestant objections, for example, is that, oh, the

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<v Speaker 2>Church changed and became pagan at the Council of Nicea.

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<v Speaker 2>So when I first started studying this back in two

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<v Speaker 2>thousand and three, I bought the Church Father's set, all

413
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<v Speaker 2>thirty eight volumes of it. I didn't read all the

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<v Speaker 2>thirty eight volumes, but I went through first the early

415
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:34.680
<v Speaker 2>Church Fathers. So when you read the post Apostolic Fathers

416
00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:37.079
<v Speaker 2>right after the death of John and Paul and all

417
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:42.200
<v Speaker 2>those people. You realize that Clement, Ignacious Aaron as justin

418
00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:46.599
<v Speaker 2>Martyr Cyprian, all church fathers that were very prominent prior

419
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:49.799
<v Speaker 2>to the Council of Nicia. They taught all the things

420
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:52.559
<v Speaker 2>that the Orthodox Church still teaches and all the things

421
00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:55.839
<v Speaker 2>that Protestants think the Council of Nicea and three twenty

422
00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:59.079
<v Speaker 2>five corrupted. So you find them teaching about relics, you

423
00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:02.079
<v Speaker 2>find them teaching about saints, you find them teaching bishops

424
00:24:02.119 --> 00:24:04.440
<v Speaker 2>in a succession. You find them talking about the real

425
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:06.920
<v Speaker 2>presence of Christ and the Euchars. You find them talking

426
00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:11.720
<v Speaker 2>about you know, councils, the church being run by synods

427
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:15.640
<v Speaker 2>modeled on Acts fifteen in the Jerusalem Synod, so sinodal

428
00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:19.599
<v Speaker 2>church government, bishopric, hierarchy, you know, all of those elements

429
00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:23.039
<v Speaker 2>are there in those early church fathers. And for me,

430
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:25.960
<v Speaker 2>that pretty much said, well, look, it's not Protestant, it's

431
00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:29.480
<v Speaker 2>not Evangelical, so you know, it's got to be Orthodox

432
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:32.319
<v Speaker 2>or Catholic. I mean, that's the realization I came to,

433
00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:35.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, back in my twenties. Again, I didn't know

434
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:38.839
<v Speaker 2>much about Orthodoxy at that time, but so I mean

435
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:41.200
<v Speaker 2>I think that but for the for the point against

436
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.599
<v Speaker 2>the Protestant idea of that pretty much I think solidifies it.

437
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:46.559
<v Speaker 2>And then when you get into, for example, more devastating

438
00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:49.799
<v Speaker 2>issues like you know, for me as a Protestant, obviously

439
00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:51.839
<v Speaker 2>I believed in Solar script Heira that the Bible is

440
00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:55.720
<v Speaker 2>the only, ultimate, final, infallible authority. But then when you

441
00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:57.920
<v Speaker 2>get into the history of the formation of the Biblical Canon,

442
00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:01.079
<v Speaker 2>you realize that this didn't drop out out of the sky.

443
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:03.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, it didn't come about in a vacuum. The

444
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.119
<v Speaker 2>Bible is a collection of books, and the history of

445
00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:12.319
<v Speaker 2>the Church is you can't divide that from the formation

446
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:14.839
<v Speaker 2>and process of the Biblical Canon. That's the books that

447
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:17.359
<v Speaker 2>were decided upon that would be in the Bible and

448
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:20.599
<v Speaker 2>would be accepted. And this is a centuries long process

449
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.400
<v Speaker 2>that really only gets solidified by about the fourth to

450
00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:26.880
<v Speaker 2>sixth century in the East and the West in the

451
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:29.480
<v Speaker 2>first thousand years of Christianity. So for the Orthodox Church

452
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:34.119
<v Speaker 2>are acceptances the Council of Trello, which is then accepted

453
00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:37.480
<v Speaker 2>by the sixth and seventh Council, and in the West

454
00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:39.599
<v Speaker 2>is typically about the fourth or fifth century, and the

455
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:44.200
<v Speaker 2>decrees of Pope Damasis, where they basically accept the same

456
00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:47.319
<v Speaker 2>canon as the Orthodox in the East. So basically we

457
00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:51.799
<v Speaker 2>have a canon that's including the Deutero economical books or

458
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:55.920
<v Speaker 2>what Protestants called the apocrypha, pretty much universally accepted by

459
00:25:55.960 --> 00:25:59.640
<v Speaker 2>the sixth seventh century. So Protestants again are really sort

460
00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:02.480
<v Speaker 2>of on the outs in a historical when they say, well,

461
00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:06.839
<v Speaker 2>we just choose the canon that Jerome had, Well, why

462
00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:09.160
<v Speaker 2>do you pick one church father not another church father?

463
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:11.759
<v Speaker 2>It really becomes very arbitrary, and then they'll say things like, well,

464
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:14.400
<v Speaker 2>we just go with what the Jews said. Well, but

465
00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:17.400
<v Speaker 2>by the second and third century, the Jewish canon was

466
00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:22.599
<v Speaker 2>already anti Christian, so they were already trying to solidify

467
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:26.920
<v Speaker 2>their notion of a loose canon to combat to Christianity.

468
00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:29.319
<v Speaker 2>So why would we listen to not the people that

469
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:33.079
<v Speaker 2>Jesus put in charge, the Apostles and their successors, the Church.

470
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:37.079
<v Speaker 2>Wouldn't the church have the authority to decide the canon. Remember,

471
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:40.640
<v Speaker 2>Peter Paul says to Timothy, the Church is the pillar

472
00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:43.440
<v Speaker 2>and ground of truth. He doesn't say the Bible texts

473
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:45.240
<v Speaker 2>are the pillar and ground of truth. He says the

474
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.640
<v Speaker 2>actual living entity of the Church. And then he says

475
00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.160
<v Speaker 2>to the Thessalonians and second Thessalonians that you should follow

476
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:56.680
<v Speaker 2>whatever I teach, whether written or oral. So Paul explicitly

477
00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:00.759
<v Speaker 2>tells the Thessalonian Church to keep. Aren't just what is

478
00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:03.640
<v Speaker 2>written texts or what written gospels and texts they might have,

479
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:05.720
<v Speaker 2>because they most of the early Church didn't have everything.

480
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:08.640
<v Speaker 2>They didn't have all the texts for many centuries. He

481
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:11.119
<v Speaker 2>tells them to keep the written and oral traditions.

482
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:15.400
<v Speaker 1>And in terms of the oral traditions, and you know,

483
00:27:16.279 --> 00:27:20.279
<v Speaker 1>I suppose this does tie into apostolic succession and the

484
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:26.640
<v Speaker 1>authority of those that have been selected by the Orthodox Church,

485
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.319
<v Speaker 1>can you talk to us about the record of the

486
00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:38.319
<v Speaker 1>oral traditions, because I see, you know, a pretty comprehensive

487
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:42.000
<v Speaker 1>record kept by the Orthodox Church of those traditions that

488
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:45.759
<v Speaker 1>are still kept to date. The Da Daki as one

489
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:50.119
<v Speaker 1>of those, you know, books that's often referenced back to

490
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.000
<v Speaker 1>which you know you've spoken to us about before as well.

491
00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:00.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, we could look to things like the

492
00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:05.799
<v Speaker 2>key or liturgical psalms and hymns that were cited in

493
00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:09.119
<v Speaker 2>the early Church, and they might constitute elements of tradition.

494
00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:13.519
<v Speaker 2>But I would want to give an example of something

495
00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:17.400
<v Speaker 2>like the liturgy itself, right, I mean, for example, how

496
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:21.000
<v Speaker 2>do we get the worship service that we have if

497
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:25.000
<v Speaker 2>it's not in the New Testament. Well, the reality is

498
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:28.200
<v Speaker 2>that the Apostles, when they went and founded the various

499
00:28:28.279 --> 00:28:31.160
<v Speaker 2>churches throughout the Roman Empire, many of them gave a

500
00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:34.799
<v Speaker 2>kind of a basic pattern of the worship service. And

501
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:37.440
<v Speaker 2>so this is called a liturgical theology. This is the

502
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:41.240
<v Speaker 2>history where the church gets its patterns of worship, and

503
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:45.680
<v Speaker 2>the Apostles shows the rough outline the way they did

504
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:50.240
<v Speaker 2>it from both the temple service, the ancient Jewish temple service,

505
00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:53.200
<v Speaker 2>and the synagogue system in its services. So they kind

506
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:55.319
<v Speaker 2>of combine elements of bose and that's why when you

507
00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:57.839
<v Speaker 2>go to an Orthodox Church service, you will find it

508
00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:02.519
<v Speaker 2>to be very reminiscent of both temple elements the imagery,

509
00:29:02.680 --> 00:29:08.599
<v Speaker 2>and the synagogue elements of the antiphonal singing and liturgical

510
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:11.200
<v Speaker 2>patterns that you find. So both things are going on

511
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:15.319
<v Speaker 2>to help the Apostles kind of come up with the

512
00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:19.039
<v Speaker 2>rough outline. But we notice that the New Testament itself

513
00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:22.240
<v Speaker 2>doesn't tell us how we're supposed to worship, and worship

514
00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:25.319
<v Speaker 2>is something very important. And when we find passages where

515
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:28.440
<v Speaker 2>Paul says for example, in Hebrews thirteen, that we have

516
00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:32.119
<v Speaker 2>an altar which those who serve at the Jewish Tabernacle

517
00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:34.839
<v Speaker 2>don't have any right to eat from. So there's an

518
00:29:35.079 --> 00:29:38.559
<v Speaker 2>eating service and an altar. Okay, that right there is

519
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:42.039
<v Speaker 2>not Protestant because Protestantism rejects the idea of an altar,

520
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:45.799
<v Speaker 2>because an altar is a sacrificial thing, and Protestism believes

521
00:29:45.799 --> 00:29:50.240
<v Speaker 2>that sacrifice is done and gone right Jesus. Jesus said

522
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:52.640
<v Speaker 2>it's finished. There's no longer any need or notion for

523
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:55.880
<v Speaker 2>priesthood or sacrifice. Well, but wait a minute, because the

524
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:57.920
<v Speaker 2>New Testament says that we have an altar that we

525
00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:00.319
<v Speaker 2>eave from, and it also includes the idea idea that

526
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:05.359
<v Speaker 2>Christ's priesthood isn't done, It's not finished. It's a Melchizedecian

527
00:30:05.400 --> 00:30:09.160
<v Speaker 2>priesthood that continues on. Yes, So the notion of priesthood

528
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:12.079
<v Speaker 2>is still there. The notion of a sacrificial eucharistic offering

529
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:14.759
<v Speaker 2>is also in the Book of Revelation going on in Heaven.

530
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:18.160
<v Speaker 2>Paul says we have an altar that we eat from.

531
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:22.160
<v Speaker 2>Jesus talks about the New Testament being a fulfillment the

532
00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:24.960
<v Speaker 2>Lord's Supper, is a type of passover. So all of

533
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:28.720
<v Speaker 2>these ideas, even though yeah, the reality comes with the

534
00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:32.319
<v Speaker 2>first coming, it doesn't mean that everything is done away

535
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:35.119
<v Speaker 2>in the sense of there's no more sacrifice, there's no

536
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:39.319
<v Speaker 2>more alter. So that's why when you go to an

537
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:42.359
<v Speaker 2>Orthodox church, you see there is a priesthood, there is

538
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:45.400
<v Speaker 2>an altar, there is a sacrifice, there are vestiments, there

539
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:49.079
<v Speaker 2>is incense. This actually fulfills the Old Testament prophecies and

540
00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:52.079
<v Speaker 2>the Minor prophets that incense will be offered to my

541
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:56.279
<v Speaker 2>name throughout the nations among the gentiles. How would incense

542
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:59.319
<v Speaker 2>be offered if there's not incense in the church, and

543
00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:03.400
<v Speaker 2>much most Protestant church churches don't believe in that.

544
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:07.880
<v Speaker 1>So that's like idolatry in some way exactly. You know

545
00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:12.440
<v Speaker 1>that having a structure. It's really interesting though, because human beings,

546
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:16.839
<v Speaker 1>you know, are creatures of worship, and we're creatures of structure,

547
00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:21.359
<v Speaker 1>and you know the and you know, this isn't like

548
00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:24.039
<v Speaker 1>a Protestant bash, but for me, I can relate to

549
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:26.039
<v Speaker 1>it the most because I was one for so long.

550
00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:32.839
<v Speaker 1>You know. You know, it's like, you know, God's not

551
00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:36.400
<v Speaker 1>sitting here demanding that you stick to this format. He

552
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.720
<v Speaker 1>wants free worship. You know, David danced and he revealed

553
00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:42.319
<v Speaker 1>himself as he was dancing because he was so excited,

554
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:45.880
<v Speaker 1>and you know, all this kind of stuff. And yet

555
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:51.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, there's like this format that everyone follows exactly.

556
00:31:51.240 --> 00:31:53.519
<v Speaker 2>So let's think about that. That's a great point. So

557
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:57.079
<v Speaker 2>remember God's not the author of confusion. If you read

558
00:31:57.079 --> 00:32:00.720
<v Speaker 2>the book Paul's letters to the Corinthians, he's buking a

559
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:03.160
<v Speaker 2>lot of their chaotic and things getting out of hand,

560
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:06.599
<v Speaker 2>and he says that keep the traditions that I delivered

561
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:09.799
<v Speaker 2>to you. He says the same thing to the Corinthians

562
00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:12.680
<v Speaker 2>that he said to the Thessalonians. He doesn't mention oral

563
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:17.920
<v Speaker 2>traditions there. But if that's mentioned, what are the traditions, Well,

564
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:21.079
<v Speaker 2>Paul's talking about the teaching that he gave for many

565
00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:25.039
<v Speaker 2>months years at these different locations. For example, we're told

566
00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:27.680
<v Speaker 2>in Acts. I think it's Acts twenty that Paul taught

567
00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:30.720
<v Speaker 2>for three years, day and night in emphasis. So when

568
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:34.119
<v Speaker 2>Paul tells Timothy to keep everything that you heard from

569
00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:37.079
<v Speaker 2>me in the presence of many witnesses and passed that on,

570
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:42.440
<v Speaker 2>he's talking about the body of oral teaching. Exposition prophecy, etc.

571
00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:46.279
<v Speaker 2>That Paul gave for three years straight, all of it.

572
00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:48.759
<v Speaker 2>He doesn't say, I taught you for three years. Now,

573
00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:51.960
<v Speaker 2>just hand down this letter that I wrote, and he says,

574
00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:55.000
<v Speaker 2>the whole body of teachings. Okay, so they're catechizing, is

575
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:56.720
<v Speaker 2>what I'm trying to say. So like the same way,

576
00:32:57.319 --> 00:33:01.400
<v Speaker 2>we can't think of oral tradition or that it's like

577
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:06.119
<v Speaker 2>necessarily going to be boiled down in a reductionist way

578
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:10.359
<v Speaker 2>to just this thing over here. Uh, it's it's a

579
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:13.920
<v Speaker 2>body of doctrines that would be passed down that might

580
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:20.400
<v Speaker 2>encapsulate Catechisis that meaning then the basic interpretive framework that

581
00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:23.680
<v Speaker 2>you would have when you're baptizing brought into the church

582
00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:27.319
<v Speaker 2>to learn the theology, to learn the interpretive structure of scripture,

583
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Because yes, you would have people reading scriptures as best

584
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:34.240
<v Speaker 2>they could. Many of the people would be illiterate, so

585
00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:37.759
<v Speaker 2>they would have to be getting this information from oral catechisis.

586
00:33:37.799 --> 00:33:40.599
<v Speaker 2>Most people couldn't read, and yet they were converting and

587
00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:43.400
<v Speaker 2>becoming Christians, and most of the churches in the first, second, third,

588
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:45.880
<v Speaker 2>four fifth century it didn't have the whole Bible. Well,

589
00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:48.200
<v Speaker 2>how are you getting Christians of the other so they're

590
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:51.640
<v Speaker 2>being taught orally from the bishops, from the Levi, from

591
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.359
<v Speaker 2>the deacons, which corresponds to the levit, and from the

592
00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:57.920
<v Speaker 2>press beitheros or the priests. So this is universal in

593
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:00.039
<v Speaker 2>the church in the early days. But again, liturgy in

594
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:03.160
<v Speaker 2>the pattern of worship is very important because you know,

595
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:09.039
<v Speaker 2>Paul applies the same warning about unworthily doing the Lord's

596
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:12.960
<v Speaker 2>Supper leading to death. Yes, and that's the same warning

597
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:17.679
<v Speaker 2>that happens in the Old Testament with nadab and Abaye

598
00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:19.760
<v Speaker 2>Whuo and people who offer strange fire and people who

599
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:22.480
<v Speaker 2>get creative with worship. So you have the same curse

600
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:27.320
<v Speaker 2>that Paul applies that's applied to the Old Testament. You know,

601
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.760
<v Speaker 2>violators of how to worship God by offering strange fire,

602
00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:34.960
<v Speaker 2>they're killed. Paul says that you might end up, you know,

603
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:37.920
<v Speaker 2>God might strike you dead too, if you go against

604
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:40.079
<v Speaker 2>the little world. Why would that be so severe a

605
00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:42.440
<v Speaker 2>punishment if it's just a mere symbol. It's a really

606
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:45.320
<v Speaker 2>severe punishment for things that are just plain and pure

607
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:47.760
<v Speaker 2>empty symbols. Suppose now I'm not saying empty, that proses

608
00:34:47.800 --> 00:34:51.199
<v Speaker 2>they are empty. But so the point is that, no,

609
00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:54.400
<v Speaker 2>there's a liturgical background to what Paul's saying, And just

610
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:59.440
<v Speaker 2>think about this. When Jesus went to church and he did,

611
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:04.760
<v Speaker 2>did he worship in a crazy, wild, do it yourself way? No,

612
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:10.639
<v Speaker 2>he worshiped dogs. Yeah, he worshiped in a synagogue structure

613
00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:11.679
<v Speaker 2>that was very ordered.

614
00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:12.519
<v Speaker 1>Yes.

615
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:16.119
<v Speaker 2>Why would Jesus himself, the son of God number one,

616
00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:18.480
<v Speaker 2>he's the one that gave all the liturgical worship to

617
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Israel in the Old Testament anyway, and then when he

618
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:24.599
<v Speaker 2>comes to worship as our example, he worshiped liturgically in

619
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:28.679
<v Speaker 2>a very ordered way. And the assumption that many prisons

620
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:31.079
<v Speaker 2>have is that, like you know, in the Book of

621
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:35.320
<v Speaker 2>Acts or something, because they had this period of manifestations

622
00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:36.960
<v Speaker 2>of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that oh, well,

623
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:39.880
<v Speaker 2>then it was therefore chaotic. No, that's a non sequate.

624
00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:43.440
<v Speaker 2>Doesn't follow that because there are healings and miracles or

625
00:35:43.480 --> 00:35:47.079
<v Speaker 2>something like that, that it was chaotic. There's also assumptions

626
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:51.039
<v Speaker 2>that prayer language or something like this is some sort

627
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:53.320
<v Speaker 2>of gibberish. No, no, no. In the Book of Acts

628
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:58.119
<v Speaker 2>is very clear that when the apostles speak languages in

629
00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:03.320
<v Speaker 2>a miraculous way, everybody's hearing this same language miraculously that's tongues. Okay,

630
00:36:03.480 --> 00:36:06.239
<v Speaker 2>it's not gibberish, it's not rolling on the ground. Those

631
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:12.000
<v Speaker 2>are ridiculous manifestations that are rebuked and called confusion and chaos.

632
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:14.000
<v Speaker 2>God is not the author of chaos, Paul says to

633
00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:18.679
<v Speaker 2>the Corinthians. So why would chaotic, nonsense, gibberous worship be

634
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:21.760
<v Speaker 2>the very way that is the true spiritual manifestation. So

635
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:24.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm just mainly speaking about like the Charismatics there, but

636
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:30.559
<v Speaker 2>even classical Protestants, you know, traditional Lutherans or Calvinists and Presbyterians,

637
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:33.400
<v Speaker 2>and you know, they have an order of worship that's

638
00:36:33.400 --> 00:36:35.719
<v Speaker 2>not in the Bible that they have sort of constructed,

639
00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:40.559
<v Speaker 2>and ironically, they've loosely constructed it for itself from older

640
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:47.440
<v Speaker 2>liturgical traditions of the Roman Roman Church. So you can't

641
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:50.000
<v Speaker 2>get away from this point of tradition even if you're

642
00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:53.960
<v Speaker 2>a Protestant. Uh. And the irony is that, Paul, if

643
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:57.159
<v Speaker 2>we had, if the Bible was operating, if the Church

644
00:36:57.239 --> 00:36:59.679
<v Speaker 2>is supposed to operate on a solar scripture of principle,

645
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:03.559
<v Speaker 2>why were we not given a pattern of worship in

646
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:04.239
<v Speaker 2>the New Testament.

647
00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:07.880
<v Speaker 1>I'll argue that the traditions of men make the Word

648
00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:10.280
<v Speaker 1>of God of null effect, and that that's actually what's

649
00:37:10.280 --> 00:37:13.519
<v Speaker 1>happening in churches like the Orthodox Church, where it is

650
00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:15.800
<v Speaker 1>very structured and traditions are followed.

651
00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:22.920
<v Speaker 2>But again, as we saw with Paul's injunction to the Thessalonians

652
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:26.760
<v Speaker 2>as well as to the Corinthians, how if all the

653
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:30.519
<v Speaker 2>traditions are so, this is what's called a word concept fallacy. Right,

654
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:33.639
<v Speaker 2>So Jesus is talking about traditions that the Pharisees came

655
00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:40.119
<v Speaker 2>up with, that supplant and a trump God's word, God's revelation.

656
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:43.679
<v Speaker 2>And Paul is saying, when I give you this pattern

657
00:37:43.719 --> 00:37:46.239
<v Speaker 2>of doctrine that you are to hand down, that is

658
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:49.400
<v Speaker 2>also the word of God that you heard me preach,

659
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:52.920
<v Speaker 2>he says, So Heah identifies his oral teaching with the

660
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:55.760
<v Speaker 2>Word of God as well as what he wrote down.

661
00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:00.400
<v Speaker 2>And again, the Bible itself doesn't tell us what what

662
00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:03.119
<v Speaker 2>books go into the Bible. So we need we have

663
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:06.559
<v Speaker 2>to have this tradition of the church to even identify,

664
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:11.519
<v Speaker 2>for example, the tradition that Matthew wrote Matthew's Gospel, because

665
00:38:11.559 --> 00:38:14.280
<v Speaker 2>for example, it doesn't we're not told who wrote it

666
00:38:14.679 --> 00:38:17.920
<v Speaker 2>or that Matthew is the Matthew that we identify with

667
00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:20.199
<v Speaker 2>an apostle. It's the tradition of the Church that says

668
00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:22.440
<v Speaker 2>that that's who that was. And it's a tradition of

669
00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:24.760
<v Speaker 2>the Church that said these other gospels over here that

670
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:27.679
<v Speaker 2>are called the Gospel of Thomas are fake. They're fake

671
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:32.840
<v Speaker 2>and gray, all right, So we know partly what books

672
00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:36.000
<v Speaker 2>to include and not include by that same tradition that

673
00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:40.000
<v Speaker 2>a Protestant is inadvertently denying by saying or assuming that

674
00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:43.360
<v Speaker 2>all tradition is what Jesus is talking about. Now, Jesus

675
00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:46.719
<v Speaker 2>affirmed and observed many traditions. For example, going to the

676
00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:50.679
<v Speaker 2>synagogue worship service itself was partly a tradition because the

677
00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:54.920
<v Speaker 2>synagogue system was set up posts Moses by Ezra, and

678
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:58.400
<v Speaker 2>it was a traditional way to set up worship throughout Israel.

679
00:38:58.599 --> 00:39:01.119
<v Speaker 2>But we're not told explain how you're supposed to do

680
00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:04.199
<v Speaker 2>it in the synagogue. That was something Ezra set up,

681
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:07.119
<v Speaker 2>So that was a tradition. Attending the service the Feast

682
00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:10.199
<v Speaker 2>of Lights that Jesus does, that's the celebration of the Maccabees.

683
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:12.360
<v Speaker 2>We're never told that you're supposed to go to the

684
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:19.159
<v Speaker 2>Maccabee service. So Jesus is attending excuse me, services that

685
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:23.079
<v Speaker 2>are themselves fine, legitimate and good traditions. So the point

686
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:25.800
<v Speaker 2>is that there's good traditions and there's bad traditions. Good

687
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:28.960
<v Speaker 2>traditions are traditions that the church and those an authority

688
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:33.840
<v Speaker 2>have accepted, the whole church universally accepts. They're not problems,

689
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:37.400
<v Speaker 2>they're not contradicting or contravening the Word of God. Bad

690
00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:39.760
<v Speaker 2>traditions are the traditions that do those things.

691
00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:43.800
<v Speaker 1>So I want to ask you because you said that,

692
00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:47.159
<v Speaker 1>you know, you came to the point where you realized

693
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:51.760
<v Speaker 1>it's either between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. What is it exactly

694
00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:56.480
<v Speaker 1>you know that made you decide that it's not Catholicism

695
00:39:56.519 --> 00:39:59.320
<v Speaker 1>because the Catholics will say, this is, you know, passed

696
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:04.360
<v Speaker 1>on Jesus past, established his church through Peta, and we're still,

697
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:06.519
<v Speaker 1>you know, carrying on with that.

698
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:11.199
<v Speaker 2>If I was to boil it down to the most.

699
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:14.400
<v Speaker 1>That's that's my incredibly basic explanation of Catholicism. But by

700
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:18.719
<v Speaker 1>the way, so forgive me, but that's you understand my point.

701
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:21.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, and if I were to boil it

702
00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:24.360
<v Speaker 2>down to maybe two or three of the main reasons

703
00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:28.840
<v Speaker 2>why I think orthodoxy is these is the church and

704
00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:31.519
<v Speaker 2>not the Roman Church? Is that? And the more I

705
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:37.400
<v Speaker 2>studied the first thousand years of Christianity, you find that

706
00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:42.880
<v Speaker 2>you don't see the Roman Catholic idea of the pope

707
00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:48.840
<v Speaker 2>and particularly his powers that are outlined at Vatican One,

708
00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:52.480
<v Speaker 2>which is the Roman Catholic Council that dogmatizes the doctrine

709
00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:55.440
<v Speaker 2>of the papacy and it's infallibility and so forth. You

710
00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:59.440
<v Speaker 2>don't see that exercised and explicated in that way in

711
00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:03.280
<v Speaker 2>the first years. And so because many even though Vatican

712
00:41:03.320 --> 00:41:06.400
<v Speaker 2>Want itself actually says that it was always the case,

713
00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:10.320
<v Speaker 2>many Roman Catholics, when dealing with this point or this objection,

714
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:13.199
<v Speaker 2>will say, well, but it evolved. But you run into

715
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:16.000
<v Speaker 2>a whole host of other problems with the idea of

716
00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:19.800
<v Speaker 2>doctrinal evolution, because if that's the case, then it seems

717
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:22.599
<v Speaker 2>like it evolved to be where we are now, where

718
00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:26.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, skittles unions can be blessed, right, so why

719
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:28.559
<v Speaker 2>can't it involve And now we don't have the death

720
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:29.119
<v Speaker 2>Pale team.

721
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:30.840
<v Speaker 1>Right now, I can a baptize aliens?

722
00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:34.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, well, yeah, if it can evolve, then it

723
00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:40.159
<v Speaker 2>can reasonably evolve into the opposite of itself, and if

724
00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:43.599
<v Speaker 2>all doctrinal positions are subject to some notion of evolution,

725
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:47.079
<v Speaker 2>then the idea that the doctrine evolves itself can also

726
00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:50.159
<v Speaker 2>evolve and have become self refuting. So at a philosophical level,

727
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:51.800
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of nonsensical.

728
00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:54.039
<v Speaker 1>That's a really good point, Jay, because I know a

729
00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:57.239
<v Speaker 1>lot of faithful Catholics. We have them in our audience,

730
00:41:57.280 --> 00:41:59.880
<v Speaker 1>and I've interviewed some and they are wonderful people, and

731
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:03.079
<v Speaker 1>they love Jesus and they love the Church, and they say,

732
00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:05.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, what we're doing is fighting to preserve the

733
00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:10.440
<v Speaker 1>roots of the Church, everything that the doctrine actually is

734
00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:13.960
<v Speaker 1>supposed to be, rather than this bastardized version that this

735
00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:18.599
<v Speaker 1>Satanic pope is sprouting now. But what you just said

736
00:42:18.760 --> 00:42:21.280
<v Speaker 1>is if you go on the basis of that evolution

737
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:24.440
<v Speaker 1>of theology or doctrine or whatever the case may be,

738
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:27.360
<v Speaker 1>you actually it allows for this.

739
00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:32.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Unfortunately, although I understand why they feel that way,

740
00:42:32.920 --> 00:42:34.599
<v Speaker 2>and I felt the exact same way when I was

741
00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:37.960
<v Speaker 2>a traditional Roman Catholic in my twenties, you don't have

742
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:41.280
<v Speaker 2>that liberty as a Roman Catholic because of the nature

743
00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:43.440
<v Speaker 2>of the system of Roman Catholicism. So if you go

744
00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:46.000
<v Speaker 2>and read Vatican One, which I highly recommend people do.

745
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:49.320
<v Speaker 2>You go to Peopleandcyclicals dot net, type in Vatican One

746
00:42:49.639 --> 00:42:52.360
<v Speaker 2>and read the full If you print it out, it

747
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:54.679
<v Speaker 2>might be ten to fifteen pages. What you'll notice is

748
00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:58.960
<v Speaker 2>that you're actually bound to much more than just the

749
00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:02.800
<v Speaker 2>so called fallible teachings. You actually have to follow the

750
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:07.280
<v Speaker 2>Pope pretty much across the board, and if you disagree

751
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:11.880
<v Speaker 2>in even what is considered quote nonfallible teachings, you're still

752
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:16.079
<v Speaker 2>supposed to submit with docility and humility of minds. So

753
00:43:16.119 --> 00:43:19.320
<v Speaker 2>you're not actually allowed in that system, if they're consistent

754
00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:22.679
<v Speaker 2>with it, to publicly oppose any of the moral and

755
00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:26.719
<v Speaker 2>theological dogmatic teachings of Pope Francis. So while they might

756
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:29.559
<v Speaker 2>like to have the idea of rebelling against the papacy,

757
00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:32.440
<v Speaker 2>the actual text of vaticant One in about four or

758
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:36.519
<v Speaker 2>five other places in Denzinger, which is their official dogma book,

759
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:39.280
<v Speaker 2>don't allow you to do that. In fact, you even

760
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:44.079
<v Speaker 2>have to submit to the Pope's decisions on mundane matters,

761
00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:48.400
<v Speaker 2>juridical matters, decisions of the Holy Office, even you're supposed

762
00:43:48.440 --> 00:43:51.239
<v Speaker 2>to submit to them. So this idea that you can

763
00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:54.760
<v Speaker 2>be a traditional, faithful Roman Catholic and reject the last

764
00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:58.559
<v Speaker 2>sixty seventy years of liberalism post Vatican two is just

765
00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:02.760
<v Speaker 2>absolutely absurd and not the case, especially given the fact

766
00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:06.920
<v Speaker 2>that Vatican two actually specifies and multiple times after Vaticano

767
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:10.039
<v Speaker 2>it's been specified in at least five places that you

768
00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:12.159
<v Speaker 2>have to believe Vatican two, you don't have the right

769
00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:15.880
<v Speaker 2>or the ability as Roman Caloty two reject an ecumenical

770
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:20.519
<v Speaker 2>council so consistent Roman Catholic papalism itself, I think is

771
00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:25.920
<v Speaker 2>the ultimate defeater for Roman Catholicism. And so again let

772
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:30.039
<v Speaker 2>me give you a couple other key examples. The first

773
00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:32.599
<v Speaker 2>thousand years of the Church, you have these econmenical councils

774
00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:34.920
<v Speaker 2>that are shared between East and West for the most part,

775
00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:39.280
<v Speaker 2>and those canons. Those councils produce what we call canons.

776
00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:44.079
<v Speaker 2>Canons are ecclesiastical laws that are produced as sort of

777
00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:47.280
<v Speaker 2>rules and guidelines for the church in each of those councils.

778
00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:50.360
<v Speaker 2>And what's interesting is that every one of the first

779
00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:55.199
<v Speaker 2>seven produces canons that contradict and don't line up with

780
00:44:55.280 --> 00:44:58.480
<v Speaker 2>the idea of Vatican one's view of the papacy. For example,

781
00:44:58.519 --> 00:45:02.199
<v Speaker 2>you have canons that talk about every bishop being limited

782
00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:06.039
<v Speaker 2>in jurisdiction. Well, if every bishop's limited in jurisdiction, then

783
00:45:06.119 --> 00:45:09.000
<v Speaker 2>there's no universal super bishop who has jurisdiction over everybody.

784
00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:12.360
<v Speaker 2>And make a long story short, if you look at

785
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:16.559
<v Speaker 2>two important documents that the Vatican has approved, the Vatican

786
00:45:16.599 --> 00:45:19.599
<v Speaker 2>has approved in the last few years. The first one

787
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:21.920
<v Speaker 2>is called the ch eighty document and the second one

788
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:25.360
<v Speaker 2>is called the Alexandria Document. Chad document came out, I

789
00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:28.559
<v Speaker 2>don't know, twenty sixteen, somewhere in there. Gad document came.

790
00:45:29.079 --> 00:45:32.199
<v Speaker 2>Alexander document came out last year. And both of those

791
00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:34.559
<v Speaker 2>documents together, they're not that long on high they recommend

792
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:38.880
<v Speaker 2>interested people go read them. They actually admit, between the

793
00:45:38.920 --> 00:45:43.400
<v Speaker 2>two documents, about ninety percent, I would say, of the

794
00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Orthodox problems and critiques of the papacy for the last

795
00:45:47.960 --> 00:45:50.360
<v Speaker 2>thousand years. Now, if we're at the point where Rome

796
00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:53.000
<v Speaker 2>is now admitting and I don't believe the motivations are good.

797
00:45:53.079 --> 00:45:55.760
<v Speaker 2>I believe the motivations are actually acumenism and to try

798
00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:59.639
<v Speaker 2>to coax the Orthodox back into union with Rome. But

799
00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:01.719
<v Speaker 2>if we think about it, well, now, wait a minute.

800
00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:04.719
<v Speaker 2>If these documents are admitting that the Roman Church has

801
00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:07.320
<v Speaker 2>basically been wrong about a lot of its critiques ninety

802
00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:09.760
<v Speaker 2>percent of it the last thousand years, and his claims,

803
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:14.400
<v Speaker 2>then that actually means Vatican One's not true. It actually

804
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:18.360
<v Speaker 2>means that the Vatican One view of the papal indefectibility

805
00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:22.920
<v Speaker 2>and infallibility is not the case. So to me, those

806
00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:25.639
<v Speaker 2>are a couple of the strongest proofs that the ro

807
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Meancallic Church is not the one true church. And if

808
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:31.440
<v Speaker 2>you just think about it from kind of practical perspective,

809
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:34.719
<v Speaker 2>if everything hinges on one guy and it's the guy

810
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:37.360
<v Speaker 2>over in Rome, and if that guy gets compromised and

811
00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:41.800
<v Speaker 2>co opted as a lot of evidence I think demonstrates,

812
00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:45.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, Francis basically works in lockstep with the world

813
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:49.360
<v Speaker 2>economic forms of Agenda and Klaus Schwab. Then to me

814
00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:53.920
<v Speaker 2>that that demonstrates that that's not under this infallible guide

815
00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:56.320
<v Speaker 2>and carorism of Jesus and Peter.

816
00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:02.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a really good point. People may argue that,

817
00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:09.079
<v Speaker 1>you know, I always think about the I guess because

818
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:11.760
<v Speaker 1>I did so much, you know, talking to people of

819
00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:16.199
<v Speaker 1>different ideologies and sort of tackling arguments apologetics if you will,

820
00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:20.199
<v Speaker 1>on a really small scale. But people may argue, oh, well, say,

821
00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:25.639
<v Speaker 1>for example, you know, the Orthodox Church hasn't been absent

822
00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:29.599
<v Speaker 1>when they do all these ecumenical meetings and I don't know,

823
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:32.280
<v Speaker 1>light flames with Hindus and all this kind of stuff.

824
00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:35.840
<v Speaker 1>We've had representation from the Orthodox Church at some of

825
00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:39.639
<v Speaker 1>these climate things and you know, so, how then is

826
00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:43.440
<v Speaker 1>that any different from what the Catholics are doing.

827
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:47.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a great question, and it often comes up.

828
00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:49.280
<v Speaker 2>And I think the important thing to keep in mind

829
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:53.480
<v Speaker 2>here is that it's two different structures and two different ecclesiologies.

830
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:55.880
<v Speaker 2>That just means the doctrine of the church. So the

831
00:47:55.960 --> 00:47:59.199
<v Speaker 2>Romancality Church is a top down system at all. It's

832
00:47:59.239 --> 00:48:01.679
<v Speaker 2>a house of car that either stands or falls based

833
00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:04.320
<v Speaker 2>on what the guy in Rome is doing. The Orthodox

834
00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Church is not like that. A lot of people think

835
00:48:06.519 --> 00:48:08.480
<v Speaker 2>of it, like, especially if they're Catholic, they look at

836
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:10.320
<v Speaker 2>the Orthodox Church and say, oh, you're kind of like

837
00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:14.239
<v Speaker 2>the pope and but you have like the patriarch concept

838
00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:17.000
<v Speaker 2>and noople, or you have five patriarchs, and then therefore

839
00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:19.800
<v Speaker 2>you're like a five headed church. You know, those are

840
00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:24.039
<v Speaker 2>just canonical privileges. In other words, those bishops have privileges

841
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:27.519
<v Speaker 2>within synods. It doesn't mean or they have a large jurisdiction.

842
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:30.960
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't mean that they're popes. Every bishop is just

843
00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:33.039
<v Speaker 2>as much a bishop as the next bishop. So the

844
00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:36.800
<v Speaker 2>Orthodox Church surprisingly is decentralized. A lot of people might

845
00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:40.920
<v Speaker 2>find that kind of odd or very foreign, especially if

846
00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:44.039
<v Speaker 2>you're Roman Catholic, because you're sort of, you know, locked

847
00:48:44.039 --> 00:48:47.840
<v Speaker 2>into that pyramid type of system, and the Orthodox Church

848
00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:50.639
<v Speaker 2>is more I mean, this is a maybe not the

849
00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:53.360
<v Speaker 2>best analogy, but it's a little more like a republican

850
00:48:53.400 --> 00:48:57.320
<v Speaker 2>type of system. Then it would be like a top down,

851
00:48:57.440 --> 00:49:01.760
<v Speaker 2>tyrannical type of you know, auto see. So you know,

852
00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:05.960
<v Speaker 2>the bishops are are elected and chosen, and they have

853
00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:10.159
<v Speaker 2>more authority than the priests, but there's no super bishop.

854
00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:14.320
<v Speaker 2>And it's true that at times any one bishop, like

855
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:17.679
<v Speaker 2>the Bishop of Rome, he might try to get a

856
00:49:17.719 --> 00:49:21.280
<v Speaker 2>lot more power because he might have honor and prestige,

857
00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:23.519
<v Speaker 2>and then he might say, okay, well that honor and

858
00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:26.960
<v Speaker 2>prestige actually now translates into like a divine you know,

859
00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:29.719
<v Speaker 2>I'm the guy that everybody should look to. Right. That's

860
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.840
<v Speaker 2>our review of what happened in the See of Rome,

861
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:36.679
<v Speaker 2>because for the first thousand years we Orthodox would believe

862
00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:40.239
<v Speaker 2>that the pope is Orthodox, but then he eventually departs

863
00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:43.320
<v Speaker 2>when we have the schism. So likewise, if we thought

864
00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:47.320
<v Speaker 2>about the patriarchal concept and noble for example, much of

865
00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:50.599
<v Speaker 2>the Orthodox Church is concerned and believes that he's now

866
00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:52.559
<v Speaker 2>trying to kind of be like the pope. He wants

867
00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:56.519
<v Speaker 2>to have this prestige and authority even beyond what's normal

868
00:49:58.119 --> 00:50:00.519
<v Speaker 2>like the pope. Now it's not I mean, it's a

869
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:03.679
<v Speaker 2>problem in the Orthodox Church, but it's not a problem

870
00:50:03.719 --> 00:50:07.320
<v Speaker 2>for our ecclesiology because we believe and have no problem

871
00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:12.400
<v Speaker 2>admitting that any bishop can be corrupted and become eventually

872
00:50:12.440 --> 00:50:15.760
<v Speaker 2>a heretic or an apostate. So the problem is not

873
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:19.119
<v Speaker 2>so much. The argument is not the Orthodox Church has

874
00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:21.719
<v Speaker 2>no problems and the calolgy Church has a bad popes.

875
00:50:21.800 --> 00:50:23.920
<v Speaker 2>That's not the argument. The argument is that the system

876
00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:27.679
<v Speaker 2>of Roman Catholicism hangs everything on one guy and his

877
00:50:27.800 --> 00:50:31.320
<v Speaker 2>dogmatic teaching, such that if he makes a contradiction in

878
00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:35.119
<v Speaker 2>dogma or morals, the system is not true anymore, whereas

879
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:37.679
<v Speaker 2>in the Orthodox Church you don't have everything hanging in

880
00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:40.960
<v Speaker 2>on one guy. Though a patriarch can become a heretic

881
00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:44.280
<v Speaker 2>and fall away. Many of them have. In fact, many

882
00:50:44.360 --> 00:50:46.440
<v Speaker 2>of the most important heretics in the history of the

883
00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Church have been patriarchs of Constantinople.

884
00:50:50.079 --> 00:50:55.840
<v Speaker 1>Right, what do you think the key takeaways? I guess

885
00:50:55.840 --> 00:51:00.000
<v Speaker 1>for the Protestant because we have a lot of evangelicals

886
00:51:00.039 --> 00:51:04.039
<v Speaker 1>in our audience, right, so, you know, they got really

887
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:08.480
<v Speaker 1>angry with me for you know, talking about the fact

888
00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:12.960
<v Speaker 1>that something that you brought up before, that the New

889
00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:16.679
<v Speaker 1>Covenant really is like what is the new Israel? And

890
00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:20.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, the Christians are the inheritors of the Covenant.

891
00:51:21.639 --> 00:51:26.039
<v Speaker 1>It's moved on now to us. And in fact, you know,

892
00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:29.519
<v Speaker 1>saying that we're somehow not the chosen people of God

893
00:51:29.639 --> 00:51:33.599
<v Speaker 1>now it really diminishes what Jesus did and what are

894
00:51:33.599 --> 00:51:36.079
<v Speaker 1>you established through the New Covenant? And so, you know,

895
00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:40.119
<v Speaker 1>I find it insane how many people don't understand this.

896
00:51:40.239 --> 00:51:44.840
<v Speaker 1>But what do you think is the key takeaway for

897
00:51:44.920 --> 00:51:49.639
<v Speaker 1>the Protestants? Because so many of them genuinely love Jesus

898
00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:54.679
<v Speaker 1>Jaye like they love Jesus. They they do. They try

899
00:51:54.719 --> 00:51:59.159
<v Speaker 1>their hardest to be good people, good representatives of Christ

900
00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:03.960
<v Speaker 1>on this earth, and yet are often so misled. What

901
00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:07.679
<v Speaker 1>do you think they really need to understand about Protestantism

902
00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:09.800
<v Speaker 1>and why it's really not the right way.

903
00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:13.119
<v Speaker 2>Well, I would say, first of all, even in the

904
00:52:13.159 --> 00:52:19.679
<v Speaker 2>Old Testament, the Jews had ways to deal with problems

905
00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:22.199
<v Speaker 2>and issues in the church, and so you had a

906
00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:24.679
<v Speaker 2>kind of a normative authority in the structure of the

907
00:52:24.760 --> 00:52:28.280
<v Speaker 2>levites and the priests who were the interpreters and could

908
00:52:28.360 --> 00:52:30.960
<v Speaker 2>then make judgments on the basis of the law. And yeah,

909
00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:33.920
<v Speaker 2>they made mistakes and they were fallible men for sure,

910
00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:37.800
<v Speaker 2>but there was still a structure, a normative structure in place.

911
00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:43.159
<v Speaker 2>And when Jesus sets up the church and he causes apostles,

912
00:52:43.159 --> 00:52:45.679
<v Speaker 2>he says very clearly, he who hears you, here's me.

913
00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:48.480
<v Speaker 2>He breathes on them, it says in the Book of John,

914
00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:52.079
<v Speaker 2>and gives them a power to remit and retain sins.

915
00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:54.639
<v Speaker 2>Whoever sins you remit, they're remitted. Whoever sins you retain,

916
00:52:54.679 --> 00:52:58.360
<v Speaker 2>they're retained. So that's a real power that's given to

917
00:52:58.480 --> 00:53:01.880
<v Speaker 2>these apostles, believe by extension to the people that they

918
00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:04.679
<v Speaker 2>set up. And what that means is that if there

919
00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:08.599
<v Speaker 2>is a visible institutional body of bishops and that makes

920
00:53:08.679 --> 00:53:11.880
<v Speaker 2>up the church and history, then they do have authority,

921
00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:15.239
<v Speaker 2>and that means that that authority will continue with the church.

922
00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:18.199
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't go away, it doesn't die. They continue to

923
00:53:18.199 --> 00:53:21.679
<v Speaker 2>have the ability to excommunicate people. How could you excommunicate

924
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:25.079
<v Speaker 2>people and enforce these judgments if there's no living body

925
00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:26.880
<v Speaker 2>that does it. It would be like to make an

926
00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:31.000
<v Speaker 2>analogy having the Constitution but no supreme court to actually

927
00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:33.719
<v Speaker 2>rule on the Constitution. It's just every man reading the

928
00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:36.599
<v Speaker 2>Constitution for himself. Well, that would be nonsense and chaos.

929
00:53:36.639 --> 00:53:39.440
<v Speaker 2>So that Jesus didn't even think to set up some

930
00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:42.480
<v Speaker 2>body of people to make decisions and to be a

931
00:53:42.599 --> 00:53:46.719
<v Speaker 2>kind of supreme court, so to speak, for his church.

932
00:53:46.840 --> 00:53:50.119
<v Speaker 1>I mean, communication doesn't even really happen all that much. Jay,

933
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:53.559
<v Speaker 1>It's all very floppy, and I guess that would you

934
00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:57.199
<v Speaker 1>know a purpose. It's all very floppy and flippant. You know,

935
00:53:58.119 --> 00:54:03.599
<v Speaker 1>someone's found out to have been hiding pedophile secrets from

936
00:54:03.639 --> 00:54:07.039
<v Speaker 1>his dad and you know, no big deal. God's grace

937
00:54:07.079 --> 00:54:09.000
<v Speaker 1>will cover it. It's like, well, hang on a second,

938
00:54:09.039 --> 00:54:12.960
<v Speaker 1>there is actually a process for people that have done

939
00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:15.519
<v Speaker 1>egregious things. And you know, I mean maybe that's not

940
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:18.239
<v Speaker 1>the best example, but you know, there's a process for

941
00:54:18.280 --> 00:54:20.480
<v Speaker 1>someone who's unrepentant for example.

942
00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:24.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean you could use those moral examples

943
00:54:24.440 --> 00:54:27.719
<v Speaker 2>of individuals, but I was thinking more so, like, for example,

944
00:54:27.719 --> 00:54:31.039
<v Speaker 2>what we see in the fourth century when the main

945
00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:34.079
<v Speaker 2>challenge to Christianity at that time is the doctrine of

946
00:54:34.119 --> 00:54:37.920
<v Speaker 2>arianism or semi arianism, which is the idea that Jesus

947
00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:41.000
<v Speaker 2>isn't fully divine. He's not the second person of the Godhead.

948
00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:44.199
<v Speaker 2>He's the first thing God created, so he's just a creature.

949
00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:46.440
<v Speaker 2>And so this is why we have the Council of

950
00:54:46.519 --> 00:54:49.880
<v Speaker 2>nicea meeting, is to solve this crisis throughout the Church

951
00:54:49.880 --> 00:54:52.719
<v Speaker 2>and the Roman Empire, that most people are believing that

952
00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Jesus is a creature or some kind of demigod, a

953
00:54:55.960 --> 00:55:00.000
<v Speaker 2>created being. And the decision, of course, following sant Anthonatian,

954
00:55:00.239 --> 00:55:03.599
<v Speaker 2>is that no, Jesus is the eternally generated son of

955
00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:05.880
<v Speaker 2>the Father, and therefore he has the same nature as

956
00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:09.119
<v Speaker 2>the Father. And therefore, because God cannot have degrees of divinity,

957
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:13.159
<v Speaker 2>there's no eighty percent God, or because the divine nature

958
00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:16.480
<v Speaker 2>is the divine nature. If you're uncreated, you're uncreated, then

959
00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:19.920
<v Speaker 2>the sun is uncreated. And so as the second person

960
00:55:19.960 --> 00:55:22.360
<v Speaker 2>that God had, he must be believed in as fully

961
00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:26.360
<v Speaker 2>divine Homousius to be saved, and so that's why the

962
00:55:26.440 --> 00:55:31.519
<v Speaker 2>Nicene Creed comes about. And as a result you get

963
00:55:31.559 --> 00:55:36.119
<v Speaker 2>the excommunicating of Arians and people that believe that Jesus

964
00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:38.719
<v Speaker 2>is a creature, and then later on you get a

965
00:55:38.800 --> 00:55:43.239
<v Speaker 2>further specification of other errors about Christ's nature in terms

966
00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:46.960
<v Speaker 2>of Christology. So what I'm saying is that it's not

967
00:55:47.119 --> 00:55:50.880
<v Speaker 2>just everybody fitting for themselves and reading the Bible for themselves.

968
00:55:51.440 --> 00:55:53.039
<v Speaker 2>It's not The problem is not reading the Bible. The

969
00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:57.079
<v Speaker 2>problem is that Jesus gave to his church a body

970
00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:01.440
<v Speaker 2>of people that could make decisions and enforce these things.

971
00:56:01.760 --> 00:56:05.079
<v Speaker 2>And if everybody's just DIY and it's just me and

972
00:56:05.159 --> 00:56:08.480
<v Speaker 2>the Bible, and there's no practical way to have what's

973
00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:13.119
<v Speaker 2>called normative authority in philosophy, not just the individual figuring

974
00:56:13.119 --> 00:56:15.960
<v Speaker 2>out what's true and false and right and wrong, but

975
00:56:16.519 --> 00:56:19.760
<v Speaker 2>an actual group of people that can bind people to

976
00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:21.639
<v Speaker 2>these decisions.

977
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:25.400
<v Speaker 1>That's crucial because the argument from a lot of Protestants

978
00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:28.159
<v Speaker 1>will be that we have the Holy Spirit, he teaches

979
00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:31.000
<v Speaker 1>us in all things, and we don't need a body

980
00:56:31.039 --> 00:56:33.199
<v Speaker 1>of people to tell us because we have the ultimate teacher.

981
00:56:33.519 --> 00:56:36.880
<v Speaker 1>The problem that we have is that, in our human fallibility,

982
00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:41.920
<v Speaker 1>we interpret things through our own lens, through our own culture,

983
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:45.679
<v Speaker 1>through our own experiences, and we think it may be

984
00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:47.880
<v Speaker 1>the Holy Spirit teaching us, when in fact, it's just

985
00:56:48.440 --> 00:56:51.440
<v Speaker 1>our intellect and our logic sorting through this. Now, that's

986
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:54.280
<v Speaker 1>not to say that you should take the authority of

987
00:56:54.320 --> 00:56:57.679
<v Speaker 1>a man above your own sense, because that's often led

988
00:56:57.679 --> 00:57:02.519
<v Speaker 1>people into the wrong path. You know, test everything and

989
00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:07.840
<v Speaker 1>apply the test of you know, history and scripture and

990
00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:11.079
<v Speaker 1>context and all of that, of course, but this is

991
00:57:11.079 --> 00:57:12.880
<v Speaker 1>how we end up with I don't know, what is it,

992
00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:15.079
<v Speaker 1>seventy thousand denominations.

993
00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:19.480
<v Speaker 2>Jay, Yeah, So the question isn't can an individual come

994
00:57:19.519 --> 00:57:22.480
<v Speaker 2>to know the truth? That's that's different. That's why I

995
00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:26.000
<v Speaker 2>keep using this term normative authority. The question is who

996
00:57:26.039 --> 00:57:31.159
<v Speaker 2>has the right to make those decisions? Because everybody, if

997
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:34.039
<v Speaker 2>you have lived very long and argued with people in

998
00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:36.719
<v Speaker 2>the religious sphere or even within the sphere of what's

999
00:57:36.760 --> 00:57:39.840
<v Speaker 2>called Christianity, everybody believes that they're guided by the Holy Spirit.

1000
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:43.159
<v Speaker 2>So how do we resolve an issue when say, five

1001
00:57:43.239 --> 00:57:46.280
<v Speaker 2>different factions all believe that the Holy Spirit is leading

1002
00:57:46.280 --> 00:57:49.199
<v Speaker 2>and guiding them. That's why there has to be something

1003
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:52.280
<v Speaker 2>within history that can make that decision. That's what I

1004
00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:54.880
<v Speaker 2>mean by normative authority. And for the Orthodox Church, the

1005
00:57:54.920 --> 00:58:00.280
<v Speaker 2>normative practice of that is called synodalism synods councils. So

1006
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:03.480
<v Speaker 2>the Orthodox Church is concillier, meaning that it is governed

1007
00:58:03.559 --> 00:58:08.840
<v Speaker 2>by not one dude, but synods and councils, and most

1008
00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:11.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean some Protestant groups have that. But the problem

1009
00:58:11.800 --> 00:58:14.679
<v Speaker 2>is that in Protestantism, because they don't have the notion

1010
00:58:14.840 --> 00:58:18.800
<v Speaker 2>that there is one true church in history, the binding

1011
00:58:19.559 --> 00:58:22.880
<v Speaker 2>people to a decision or the excommunicating of people doesn't

1012
00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:25.119
<v Speaker 2>really do much. It doesn't have much force because you

1013
00:58:25.159 --> 00:58:28.880
<v Speaker 2>could go start your own church, you see. But and

1014
00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:31.119
<v Speaker 2>you might do that even if you're excommunicated from the

1015
00:58:31.159 --> 00:58:34.719
<v Speaker 2>Orthodox Church. But the point is that the theology is

1016
00:58:34.760 --> 00:58:38.440
<v Speaker 2>still consistent and the notion of authority is there to

1017
00:58:38.519 --> 00:58:41.840
<v Speaker 2>say that, Well, look, you know, if you're excommunicated from

1018
00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:46.519
<v Speaker 2>the Orthodox Church, you can't really go have another Orthodox church.

1019
00:58:46.599 --> 00:58:48.599
<v Speaker 2>It's very it would be very difficult to do that,

1020
00:58:48.760 --> 00:58:50.760
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean, Like you might wear the

1021
00:58:50.800 --> 00:58:53.639
<v Speaker 2>costumes and say that you're some sort of something, but

1022
00:58:54.519 --> 00:58:56.400
<v Speaker 2>it's not going to be recognized by the rest of

1023
00:58:56.440 --> 00:59:01.519
<v Speaker 2>the world. So it's probably not going to work. You know,

1024
00:59:01.679 --> 00:59:07.440
<v Speaker 2>no Orthodox person, for example, recognizes Protestant pastors as possessing authority.

1025
00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:11.280
<v Speaker 2>They just simply don't. They're just another layman like any

1026
00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:13.760
<v Speaker 2>other laymen trying to do those things. So it's not

1027
00:59:13.800 --> 00:59:20.039
<v Speaker 2>a question of is the authority infallible and is it

1028
00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:23.119
<v Speaker 2>then able to give me knowledge of what's true and false?

1029
00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:26.039
<v Speaker 2>That's not what we're saying. The question is how do

1030
00:59:26.079 --> 00:59:29.920
<v Speaker 2>you resolve an issue when five, six, twenty different people

1031
00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:32.239
<v Speaker 2>are claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit. There's

1032
00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:37.079
<v Speaker 2>got to be somebody with authority. Again, the Constitution, it

1033
00:59:37.159 --> 00:59:40.599
<v Speaker 2>wasn't just mailed out or written out in letter letter

1034
00:59:40.679 --> 00:59:44.079
<v Speaker 2>form to every American in their mailbox to then find

1035
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:47.360
<v Speaker 2>for themselves. Doesn't mean that an individual Americans can't read

1036
00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:51.440
<v Speaker 2>the Constitution, but the point is that for practical purposes,

1037
00:59:51.519 --> 00:59:53.679
<v Speaker 2>there's got to be somebody that interprets it.

1038
00:59:55.519 --> 00:59:58.480
<v Speaker 1>I have a final topic I'd like to bring up

1039
00:59:58.519 --> 01:00:01.960
<v Speaker 1>with you, Jay, because I think it's vital and it's

1040
01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:05.440
<v Speaker 1>actually the topic that for a lot of Protestants when

1041
01:00:05.440 --> 01:00:09.800
<v Speaker 1>I speak with them, you know, after some time, you know,

1042
01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:11.519
<v Speaker 1>from my old church or whatever the case may be,

1043
01:00:11.599 --> 01:00:14.039
<v Speaker 1>and they say to me, you know, what the hell

1044
01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:21.039
<v Speaker 1>have you done, you idolata? And you know, I spent

1045
01:00:21.159 --> 01:00:25.199
<v Speaker 1>the time obviously explaining to them that they're misunderstood. But

1046
01:00:26.199 --> 01:00:30.000
<v Speaker 1>the one thing that I that I that really tipped

1047
01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:33.119
<v Speaker 1>me over was the topic of communion. And you brought

1048
01:00:33.119 --> 01:00:40.800
<v Speaker 1>this up before about how serious it is partaking in

1049
01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:43.360
<v Speaker 1>the wrong manner. I'd really love you to spend a

1050
01:00:43.360 --> 01:00:46.559
<v Speaker 1>bit of time talking about communion in the Orthodox Church,

1051
01:00:46.599 --> 01:00:50.679
<v Speaker 1>what it actually is, uh, and why it's so so

1052
01:00:51.639 --> 01:00:56.239
<v Speaker 1>serious to your soul uh to partake correctly.

1053
01:01:02.039 --> 01:01:04.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So, I mean, for us, we believe that it

1054
01:01:04.360 --> 01:01:09.679
<v Speaker 2>is the actual, uh deified flesh of Christ. And we

1055
01:01:09.719 --> 01:01:12.199
<v Speaker 2>believe that when in John six, you know, when Jesus

1056
01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:15.079
<v Speaker 2>talks about eating his flesh and duringing his blood, that

1057
01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:20.159
<v Speaker 2>it's literal. And it's literal because when people are offended

1058
01:01:20.199 --> 01:01:23.800
<v Speaker 2>by that teaching in John six, Jesus doesn't say, oh wait, wait, wait,

1059
01:01:24.159 --> 01:01:26.239
<v Speaker 2>my bad. Don't get you guys got the wrong idea.

1060
01:01:26.280 --> 01:01:27.960
<v Speaker 2>I was just talking of it as a symbol. I

1061
01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:32.360
<v Speaker 2>don't know the Old Testament, rituals and writes, the levitical

1062
01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:34.599
<v Speaker 2>services and so forth, the temples.

1063
01:01:34.719 --> 01:01:36.559
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, if I could just say that a lot of

1064
01:01:36.559 --> 01:01:38.519
<v Speaker 1>them left him at that point because they were offended

1065
01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:40.320
<v Speaker 1>because they thought this guy's trying to get us to

1066
01:01:40.559 --> 01:01:44.559
<v Speaker 1>participate in cannibalism. So he like they took it literally.

1067
01:01:45.639 --> 01:01:49.360
<v Speaker 2>Correct, Yeah, and uh yeah, Jesus doesn't say no, no,

1068
01:01:49.400 --> 01:01:52.000
<v Speaker 2>it's just a symbol. He I mean, it doesn't He's

1069
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:54.559
<v Speaker 2>not saying this cannibalism, but he's saying that, no, you

1070
01:01:54.639 --> 01:01:56.360
<v Speaker 2>really do have to partake of Me in the way

1071
01:01:56.400 --> 01:02:00.280
<v Speaker 2>that He chose to make that partaking possible, we believe

1072
01:02:00.440 --> 01:02:03.000
<v Speaker 2>is itself a fulfillment. Actually a lot of the things

1073
01:02:03.000 --> 01:02:06.079
<v Speaker 2>in the Old Testament. So for example, you'll notice many

1074
01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:11.119
<v Speaker 2>times when God meets with people like Abraham, they have

1075
01:02:11.159 --> 01:02:16.360
<v Speaker 2>a meal. When Abraham meets with Melchisedec, Melchisidic offers bread

1076
01:02:16.400 --> 01:02:19.159
<v Speaker 2>and wine, bread and wine. We believe that's a type

1077
01:02:19.159 --> 01:02:23.400
<v Speaker 2>of Christ offering bread and wine in the Melchizedecian priesthood.

1078
01:02:23.719 --> 01:02:27.480
<v Speaker 2>When you get to Exodus, when Moses goes up on

1079
01:02:27.519 --> 01:02:30.599
<v Speaker 2>the mountain, he eats a meal with God. When the

1080
01:02:30.639 --> 01:02:35.800
<v Speaker 2>Israelites get the levitical services established, many of those services

1081
01:02:36.199 --> 01:02:38.599
<v Speaker 2>deal with ways that you would have a meal with

1082
01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:42.960
<v Speaker 2>the priest and with God. So this idea of covenantal

1083
01:02:43.039 --> 01:02:45.719
<v Speaker 2>meals eating with God is all throughout the Old Testament,

1084
01:02:46.280 --> 01:02:49.000
<v Speaker 2>and the most famous would be obviously the Passover, and

1085
01:02:49.119 --> 01:02:53.119
<v Speaker 2>the Passover is the actual partaking of the passover land.

1086
01:02:53.199 --> 01:02:55.559
<v Speaker 2>Jesus is the passover Lamb. But the difference is that

1087
01:02:56.119 --> 01:02:59.039
<v Speaker 2>his blood and partaking of his blood and his flesh

1088
01:02:59.639 --> 01:03:03.559
<v Speaker 2>is the very thing that has to correspond to the

1089
01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:08.239
<v Speaker 2>passover with the Angel that comes and destroys the houses

1090
01:03:08.280 --> 01:03:11.719
<v Speaker 2>of the Egyptians, where there's not the blood of the Passover. Well,

1091
01:03:11.960 --> 01:03:14.320
<v Speaker 2>in the word the Dox Church, we are saying, no,

1092
01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:17.719
<v Speaker 2>you really are exposed to the blood. Protestants, you know,

1093
01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:21.079
<v Speaker 2>will say, well, I'm saved by the blood. They're power

1094
01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:24.199
<v Speaker 2>in the blood, power in the blood. And yet the

1095
01:03:24.239 --> 01:03:26.440
<v Speaker 2>blood is never actually what you you never come in

1096
01:03:26.480 --> 01:03:30.199
<v Speaker 2>contact with it. So we're actually a lot more literal

1097
01:03:30.239 --> 01:03:32.440
<v Speaker 2>in the sense of, you know, when Paul talks about

1098
01:03:34.039 --> 01:03:37.599
<v Speaker 2>being baptized into Christ, we think baptism really does accomplish

1099
01:03:37.599 --> 01:03:41.320
<v Speaker 2>that regeneration. When Paul talks about, you know, the blood,

1100
01:03:42.440 --> 01:03:45.400
<v Speaker 2>it's literally what you're talking about the Eucharist, So that's

1101
01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:47.280
<v Speaker 2>where you come in contact with it. It's not all

1102
01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:51.360
<v Speaker 2>just an intellectual notional thing. It's an actual, real thing.

1103
01:03:51.360 --> 01:03:53.159
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's the big stumbling block for a

1104
01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:57.360
<v Speaker 2>lot of Protestants is that they they hear this stuff

1105
01:03:57.440 --> 01:03:59.880
<v Speaker 2>and they kind of don't even realize their own gnostic

1106
01:04:00.440 --> 01:04:04.239
<v Speaker 2>presuppositions that they have. Well, that's flesh and physical and

1107
01:04:04.239 --> 01:04:06.480
<v Speaker 2>God is against flesh and physical stuff. Really, well, then

1108
01:04:06.480 --> 01:04:07.760
<v Speaker 2>why did he create the world, Why did he give

1109
01:04:07.800 --> 01:04:11.000
<v Speaker 2>us bodies? Why did Jesus resurrect his same physical body?

1110
01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Of God's against the physical. So there's just this innate

1111
01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:18.079
<v Speaker 2>sort of gnostic tendency within Protestantism that I think a

1112
01:04:18.119 --> 01:04:21.280
<v Speaker 2>lot of Protestants don't recognize. It underlies a lot of

1113
01:04:21.320 --> 01:04:26.199
<v Speaker 2>the iconoclasm, which is like Calvinism would be opposed to imagery. Well,

1114
01:04:26.239 --> 01:04:29.639
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the Book of Hebrews says that the son

1115
01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:32.199
<v Speaker 2>is the icon, the Greek word icon of the Father.

1116
01:04:32.679 --> 01:04:35.039
<v Speaker 2>So if God has a son and it's his direct

1117
01:04:35.079 --> 01:04:37.800
<v Speaker 2>image and likeness then and it's his icon, then God's

1118
01:04:37.840 --> 01:04:38.760
<v Speaker 2>not against icons.

1119
01:04:39.840 --> 01:04:43.079
<v Speaker 1>Oh, well, that would be you know, the point is

1120
01:04:43.400 --> 01:04:46.280
<v Speaker 1>not creating graven images for yourselves and all of this

1121
01:04:46.400 --> 01:04:50.880
<v Speaker 1>sort of stuff, but that's specifically worshiping those things. That's

1122
01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:54.559
<v Speaker 1>different to commemoration of the Family of God. It's different

1123
01:04:54.599 --> 01:04:58.519
<v Speaker 1>to commemoration of Jesus, artistic expression of Jesus. You know,

1124
01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:02.920
<v Speaker 1>Bethel as an example, will sit there and draw paintings

1125
01:05:03.920 --> 01:05:06.639
<v Speaker 1>while people wave ribbons and flags around. I mean, is

1126
01:05:06.679 --> 01:05:11.079
<v Speaker 1>that now, you know, creating graven images because you're doing

1127
01:05:11.119 --> 01:05:13.159
<v Speaker 1>that through a worship service. I mean, there's there's a

1128
01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:16.239
<v Speaker 1>lot of it's illogically right.

1129
01:05:16.119 --> 01:05:19.880
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I mean the notion of graven images is

1130
01:05:20.039 --> 01:05:25.519
<v Speaker 2>it's not specifically only talking about literal engraving, image of image,

1131
01:05:25.639 --> 01:05:29.559
<v Speaker 2>because if that was the point that's being made there,

1132
01:05:30.039 --> 01:05:33.199
<v Speaker 2>then the temple itself violates this because the temple was

1133
01:05:33.199 --> 01:05:37.280
<v Speaker 2>full of images. It was full of seraphim angels everywhere.

1134
01:05:37.599 --> 01:05:40.039
<v Speaker 2>Those are images. The Arc of the Covenant is a

1135
01:05:40.079 --> 01:05:42.599
<v Speaker 2>golden box with angels on it, which is an image.

1136
01:05:42.920 --> 01:05:45.760
<v Speaker 2>And there's many places where in the Old Testament people

1137
01:05:46.440 --> 01:05:50.000
<v Speaker 2>prostrate before. They prostrate before. In the Book of Chronicles,

1138
01:05:50.280 --> 01:05:53.000
<v Speaker 2>I think a second Chronicles, they prostrate before Solomon and

1139
01:05:53.039 --> 01:05:56.440
<v Speaker 2>the arc when the Chicaina glory cloud comes down to

1140
01:05:56.480 --> 01:06:00.559
<v Speaker 2>the arc. So prostrating before created things is not itself

1141
01:06:00.639 --> 01:06:10.960
<v Speaker 2>the problem. Because Elijah, Elijah prostrates before Elijah, Moses, Sami

1142
01:06:12.760 --> 01:06:16.559
<v Speaker 2>Joseph prostrates before Pharaoh, We have examples in the Bible

1143
01:06:16.599 --> 01:06:19.679
<v Speaker 2>where people prostrate before another created being is a sign

1144
01:06:19.760 --> 01:06:24.119
<v Speaker 2>of reverence. So it's not the external action of drawing

1145
01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:27.840
<v Speaker 2>a picture or putting your body down on your face

1146
01:06:27.960 --> 01:06:32.519
<v Speaker 2>that is the idolatry. Idolatry is, primarily, as Jesus notes

1147
01:06:32.559 --> 01:06:35.519
<v Speaker 2>many times, a problem of the heart and the mind.

1148
01:06:35.880 --> 01:06:40.760
<v Speaker 2>So if I, you know, am believing and worshiping a

1149
01:06:40.800 --> 01:06:43.440
<v Speaker 2>created thing as if it's God, then that is what

1150
01:06:43.480 --> 01:06:48.639
<v Speaker 2>idolatry is. Idolatry is not revering a created thing, and

1151
01:06:48.800 --> 01:06:51.199
<v Speaker 2>that happens all throughout the Old Testament throughout the Bible.

1152
01:06:52.039 --> 01:06:55.320
<v Speaker 2>God says honor your father and mother because it's a

1153
01:06:55.360 --> 01:06:58.559
<v Speaker 2>way to show deference to God your father. So is

1154
01:06:58.559 --> 01:07:01.159
<v Speaker 2>that idolatry to honor my father? I mean a lot

1155
01:07:01.199 --> 01:07:07.519
<v Speaker 2>of the Protestant ideas are bound up with very simplistic

1156
01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:12.639
<v Speaker 2>and one dimensional understandings of words. For example, call no

1157
01:07:12.719 --> 01:07:17.679
<v Speaker 2>man father. Well, but the Ten Commandments say honor your father. Yes,

1158
01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:20.199
<v Speaker 2>So if I can call no man father, then I

1159
01:07:20.239 --> 01:07:20.960
<v Speaker 2>can't call my dad.

1160
01:07:21.159 --> 01:07:23.760
<v Speaker 1>Can you actually just address that what it means by

1161
01:07:23.840 --> 01:07:26.440
<v Speaker 1>call no man father? Please, Jay, because this is actually

1162
01:07:26.480 --> 01:07:29.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, when when I interviewed priest recently. The first

1163
01:07:29.639 --> 01:07:32.079
<v Speaker 1>one of the one of the comments, Maria, we're told

1164
01:07:32.199 --> 01:07:34.400
<v Speaker 1>call no man father. I cannot watch these.

1165
01:07:36.320 --> 01:07:41.559
<v Speaker 2>Well. Paul himself refers to himself as Timothy's spiritual father. Yes,

1166
01:07:41.840 --> 01:07:46.679
<v Speaker 2>so clearly it's not contradictory in this sense to literally

1167
01:07:46.719 --> 01:07:50.199
<v Speaker 2>never call a human being father, and nobody, no Protestant

1168
01:07:50.239 --> 01:07:54.519
<v Speaker 2>unless they're crazy, actually keeps that. In that sense, Jesus

1169
01:07:54.639 --> 01:07:58.559
<v Speaker 2>is talking about the ussurpation of God's place in a

1170
01:07:58.599 --> 01:08:03.519
<v Speaker 2>person's life and a person replacing that role and being

1171
01:08:03.559 --> 01:08:07.280
<v Speaker 2>themselves because there was this tendency, and it exists even

1172
01:08:07.280 --> 01:08:12.599
<v Speaker 2>in Telmuitic Rabbinic Judaism, where the rabbi can actually argue

1173
01:08:12.639 --> 01:08:16.159
<v Speaker 2>with and displace God in that theology. So Jesus, I think,

1174
01:08:16.199 --> 01:08:20.760
<v Speaker 2>is attacking this idea that the person that you're calling

1175
01:08:21.319 --> 01:08:27.439
<v Speaker 2>father might actually be extending beyond his authoritative place to

1176
01:08:27.520 --> 01:08:30.239
<v Speaker 2>be like God, you know, like a Guru or a

1177
01:08:30.319 --> 01:08:33.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, something like that. That would be replacing the

1178
01:08:33.239 --> 01:08:35.880
<v Speaker 2>natural position that God should have in that hierarchy. But

1179
01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:39.119
<v Speaker 2>Jesus is not saying literally, never call another person father.

1180
01:08:39.479 --> 01:08:41.199
<v Speaker 2>Jesus talks about people's fathers.

1181
01:08:42.479 --> 01:08:46.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm really glad we addressed that you know, for me,

1182
01:08:46.199 --> 01:08:52.199
<v Speaker 1>j I've certainly I said this a while ago, particularly

1183
01:08:52.199 --> 01:08:54.640
<v Speaker 1>when I was even looking at the at the subject

1184
01:08:54.680 --> 01:08:58.119
<v Speaker 1>of you know, who is rallies now and all of

1185
01:08:58.159 --> 01:09:00.319
<v Speaker 1>that sort of stuff, and it was very confronting for me,

1186
01:09:00.359 --> 01:09:02.720
<v Speaker 1>and I was very afraid to face some of these

1187
01:09:03.159 --> 01:09:05.920
<v Speaker 1>former beliefs that I had worried I was going to

1188
01:09:06.039 --> 01:09:09.479
<v Speaker 1>upset God. You know these I've been quite quite open

1189
01:09:09.520 --> 01:09:13.880
<v Speaker 1>about that with the viewers. And what I found was

1190
01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:19.239
<v Speaker 1>that if you just open your heart that and be

1191
01:09:19.359 --> 01:09:21.359
<v Speaker 1>willing to learn, that God will teach you. This is

1192
01:09:21.399 --> 01:09:25.720
<v Speaker 1>something everyone believes. It's really just about whether we're open

1193
01:09:25.760 --> 01:09:29.239
<v Speaker 1>to learning. And I think, you know, someone that's very

1194
01:09:29.239 --> 01:09:30.840
<v Speaker 1>close to me always says, if you really want to

1195
01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:32.399
<v Speaker 1>know the truth, it will always lead you back to

1196
01:09:32.479 --> 01:09:37.560
<v Speaker 1>the Orthodox Church, and so I think that that's you know,

1197
01:09:37.720 --> 01:09:41.319
<v Speaker 1>I've found that to be true. Certainly. Jay, you do

1198
01:09:41.399 --> 01:09:43.840
<v Speaker 1>a lot of debates, you do a lot of talks

1199
01:09:43.880 --> 01:09:47.479
<v Speaker 1>on philosophy, you do a lot of breakdowns of Hollywood.

1200
01:09:47.520 --> 01:09:50.239
<v Speaker 1>I know that you've recently watched June two and you

1201
01:09:50.279 --> 01:09:52.520
<v Speaker 1>were very impressed. I didn't even like the first one.

1202
01:09:52.600 --> 01:09:54.039
<v Speaker 1>What was so great about the second?

1203
01:09:57.399 --> 01:10:00.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean I mentioned it. I would be interested

1204
01:10:00.920 --> 01:10:03.439
<v Speaker 2>to know why you didn't like it, because you know, people,

1205
01:10:03.880 --> 01:10:07.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm a big fan of the novels. I've read the

1206
01:10:07.039 --> 01:10:10.479
<v Speaker 2>first two. Yeah, and I was really impressed with Doune

1207
01:10:10.479 --> 01:10:12.920
<v Speaker 2>one just because of the depth of philosophical depth that

1208
01:10:13.000 --> 01:10:16.159
<v Speaker 2>it has. It's not it's not a Christian work. I'm

1209
01:10:16.159 --> 01:10:19.479
<v Speaker 2>not saying it's great because it's Christianity or anything like that.

1210
01:10:19.920 --> 01:10:23.720
<v Speaker 2>I just thought that I really appreciated the execution that

1211
01:10:24.399 --> 01:10:29.239
<v Speaker 2>Dennis Villainew had. I thought that it, for the most part,

1212
01:10:29.359 --> 01:10:33.119
<v Speaker 2>captured what was in the first book. The new movie

1213
01:10:33.479 --> 01:10:37.159
<v Speaker 2>is I think a technical achievement. The aesthetics, the art, direction,

1214
01:10:37.439 --> 01:10:40.199
<v Speaker 2>the sound, that's all phenomenal. It's not I think for

1215
01:10:40.359 --> 01:10:43.239
<v Speaker 2>moviegoers if you're a movie buff, you know, we haven't

1216
01:10:43.239 --> 01:10:46.560
<v Speaker 2>really had that type of a theater experience since like

1217
01:10:46.640 --> 01:10:48.520
<v Speaker 2>Lord of the Rings or something like that. Yeah.

1218
01:10:48.560 --> 01:10:50.359
<v Speaker 1>I saw you say that, and I thought I had

1219
01:10:50.359 --> 01:10:52.399
<v Speaker 1>no intention of watching it, And then I saw that

1220
01:10:52.439 --> 01:10:54.640
<v Speaker 1>you were like for fIF you said you it was

1221
01:10:54.720 --> 01:10:57.960
<v Speaker 1>like the experience you haven't had for fifteen years, and

1222
01:10:58.000 --> 01:11:00.399
<v Speaker 1>I thought, well, now I have to watch it. I

1223
01:11:00.520 --> 01:11:01.439
<v Speaker 1>wanted to know what made it.

1224
01:11:01.640 --> 01:11:03.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it might not be up your alley. I

1225
01:11:03.159 --> 01:11:05.439
<v Speaker 2>mean it's it's it's a very weird world. It's a

1226
01:11:05.560 --> 01:11:09.600
<v Speaker 2>very bizarre uh. You know, Frank Herbert was a GOP

1227
01:11:09.760 --> 01:11:17.600
<v Speaker 2>speech writer. He was a curiously not liberal so to speak, uh,

1228
01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:20.560
<v Speaker 2>sci fi person, and so, you know, in the in

1229
01:11:20.600 --> 01:11:22.560
<v Speaker 2>the world of science fiction, that's kind of unheard of.

1230
01:11:22.600 --> 01:11:25.600
<v Speaker 2>It's very rare there. They're usually soy men and they're

1231
01:11:25.640 --> 01:11:28.920
<v Speaker 2>always promoting kind of crazy stuff. So there are some

1232
01:11:29.000 --> 01:11:33.239
<v Speaker 2>conservative traditional elements within the Do novels that I think

1233
01:11:33.279 --> 01:11:36.479
<v Speaker 2>make it interesting in regard to how most sci fi

1234
01:11:36.560 --> 01:11:39.600
<v Speaker 2>is not that way. It also is, you know, a

1235
01:11:39.640 --> 01:11:44.079
<v Speaker 2>couple other ways it's unique is that it's not uh,

1236
01:11:44.159 --> 01:11:49.239
<v Speaker 2>there's not really aliens in that world. There are no uh,

1237
01:11:49.960 --> 01:11:54.319
<v Speaker 2>it's not pro AI. So it's a very unique sci

1238
01:11:54.319 --> 01:11:58.399
<v Speaker 2>fi where it's anti AI. And so I like those elements.

1239
01:11:58.439 --> 01:12:01.520
<v Speaker 2>That does not mean that that I think that the

1240
01:12:01.560 --> 01:12:04.640
<v Speaker 2>message of Dune overall is like, oh it's Christian. It's

1241
01:12:04.640 --> 01:12:08.520
<v Speaker 2>not Christian, it's more perennialism. But it's at least not

1242
01:12:08.680 --> 01:12:15.159
<v Speaker 2>like totally soy you know, it's not pro skal Oh,

1243
01:12:15.199 --> 01:12:18.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm serious. I mean most science fiction is just propaganda

1244
01:12:18.720 --> 01:12:22.560
<v Speaker 2>for for that stuff, you know, living in the matrix

1245
01:12:22.600 --> 01:12:24.640
<v Speaker 2>or getting a sexpot. I mean, and this is not

1246
01:12:24.680 --> 01:12:26.920
<v Speaker 2>that way at all. It also really it has a

1247
01:12:26.960 --> 01:12:31.359
<v Speaker 2>really weird religious expression. I mean, in this future ten

1248
01:12:31.399 --> 01:12:34.720
<v Speaker 2>thousand years from now scenario, there's a there's a blended

1249
01:12:34.720 --> 01:12:39.159
<v Speaker 2>world religion that's like Catholicism mixed with Islam and and

1250
01:12:39.479 --> 01:12:43.439
<v Speaker 2>all of that's very bizarre. But it's just a breath

1251
01:12:43.439 --> 01:12:45.960
<v Speaker 2>of fresh air for me. And I just did I

1252
01:12:46.039 --> 01:12:48.079
<v Speaker 2>just read the second one done Messiah and did a

1253
01:12:48.079 --> 01:12:50.800
<v Speaker 2>big breakdown of that a couple of months ago, so

1254
01:12:50.800 --> 01:12:53.479
<v Speaker 2>so it's always all still fresh in my mind. And uh,

1255
01:12:54.159 --> 01:12:59.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, from a predictive programming perspective, Dune is amazing

1256
01:12:59.239 --> 01:13:04.159
<v Speaker 2>because you have geoengineering, you have terror forming, you have

1257
01:13:05.079 --> 01:13:11.479
<v Speaker 2>MK ultra, you have espionage, sexpionage, you have intrigue, all

1258
01:13:11.560 --> 01:13:15.840
<v Speaker 2>of that in sci fi, which I mean, I'm not

1259
01:13:15.880 --> 01:13:17.760
<v Speaker 2>a huge sci fi nerd. I don't read a whole

1260
01:13:17.760 --> 01:13:20.600
<v Speaker 2>lot of sci fi, but I mean, how often do

1261
01:13:20.720 --> 01:13:24.520
<v Speaker 2>we get that kind of real conspiracy stuff in fi?

1262
01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:25.680
<v Speaker 2>Not very much.

1263
01:13:26.319 --> 01:13:29.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well I asked you because I wanted to highlight

1264
01:13:29.159 --> 01:13:32.239
<v Speaker 1>for you know, most people that watch our content know you.

1265
01:13:33.239 --> 01:13:37.199
<v Speaker 1>They really enjoy your our interviews together but for anyone

1266
01:13:37.239 --> 01:13:39.279
<v Speaker 1>that isn't for me. Now, this is the other stuff

1267
01:13:39.279 --> 01:13:42.840
<v Speaker 1>that Jay does, so it's not just religious discussions. He

1268
01:13:42.920 --> 01:13:45.960
<v Speaker 1>does a lot of I mean a huge focus. On

1269
01:13:46.000 --> 01:13:48.840
<v Speaker 1>his website you can go to Jay's analysis dot com

1270
01:13:49.680 --> 01:13:52.279
<v Speaker 1>lots of movie analysis.

1271
01:13:53.119 --> 01:13:55.239
<v Speaker 2>We're also doing a live event in LA I would

1272
01:13:55.239 --> 01:13:57.800
<v Speaker 2>add two if people want to come out and see

1273
01:13:57.880 --> 01:13:59.840
<v Speaker 2>us live with What we do in our live events

1274
01:13:59.880 --> 01:14:05.600
<v Speaker 2>is pretty diverse as well. We do I do comedy

1275
01:14:05.640 --> 01:14:07.199
<v Speaker 2>to a lot of impressions, so I end up doing

1276
01:14:07.239 --> 01:14:10.199
<v Speaker 2>like ten twenty minutes of impressions. Then we have a

1277
01:14:10.319 --> 01:14:12.560
<v Speaker 2>lecture from my wife Jamie. She does a lot of

1278
01:14:12.560 --> 01:14:15.800
<v Speaker 2>occult esotery, Hollywood stuff. Then I do a lecture that's

1279
01:14:15.800 --> 01:14:20.119
<v Speaker 2>a lot of deep geopolitics, philosophy, spirituality like we've talked about.

1280
01:14:20.159 --> 01:14:22.680
<v Speaker 2>And then at this LA event March fifteenth, we'll have

1281
01:14:22.760 --> 01:14:27.439
<v Speaker 2>Jamie Kennedy, the comedian from Scream, and he's going to

1282
01:14:27.520 --> 01:14:29.920
<v Speaker 2>be headlining. We did this. We did an event in

1283
01:14:30.039 --> 01:14:31.720
<v Speaker 2>LA about eight months ago and it was so much

1284
01:14:31.720 --> 01:14:33.720
<v Speaker 2>fun we thought we'd do it again. So this is

1285
01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:36.359
<v Speaker 2>not the same event. It's all new material, all new topics.

1286
01:14:37.119 --> 01:14:40.039
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna be signing books, the Red book at this event,

1287
01:14:40.079 --> 01:14:43.159
<v Speaker 2>which is six hundred pages of all my geopolitics and

1288
01:14:43.159 --> 01:14:46.000
<v Speaker 2>philosophy and theology essays, so people can come out and

1289
01:14:46.039 --> 01:14:48.920
<v Speaker 2>watch us. The links the tickets are all on my website,

1290
01:14:48.960 --> 01:14:51.000
<v Speaker 2>on my Twitter penned at the top in the event

1291
01:14:51.039 --> 01:14:51.600
<v Speaker 2>bright link.

1292
01:14:52.199 --> 01:14:56.760
<v Speaker 1>We can find Jay on x jay under school d

1293
01:14:57.600 --> 01:15:01.960
<v Speaker 1>seven and there is the live event pinned post that

1294
01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:04.760
<v Speaker 1>he's talking about. I encourage everyone to follow him. He

1295
01:15:04.880 --> 01:15:08.239
<v Speaker 1>posts hilarious stuff. I just I shared he sent me.

1296
01:15:08.479 --> 01:15:11.840
<v Speaker 1>He sent me that. AI like the thing that you

1297
01:15:11.880 --> 01:15:15.840
<v Speaker 1>did with the microwave as well, Oh sorry, I've just

1298
01:15:15.880 --> 01:15:20.399
<v Speaker 1>opened one of your streams, and so really entertaining but

1299
01:15:20.439 --> 01:15:23.880
<v Speaker 1>also incredibly informative. I also encourage everyone to subscribe to

1300
01:15:24.039 --> 01:15:27.680
<v Speaker 1>Jay's YouTube. I'm not signed in, so that's why it

1301
01:15:27.720 --> 01:15:32.640
<v Speaker 1>says subscribe there, but definitely subscribe to Jay's YouTube. Anything

1302
01:15:32.680 --> 01:15:33.680
<v Speaker 1>else you want to mention.

1303
01:15:33.640 --> 01:15:37.880
<v Speaker 2>Jay, No, I appreciate that great conversation. Like I said,

1304
01:15:37.880 --> 01:15:40.760
<v Speaker 2>people want the books. You can go to my website

1305
01:15:40.760 --> 01:15:43.800
<v Speaker 2>and the shop and you can get the Red Book

1306
01:15:43.840 --> 01:15:48.000
<v Speaker 2>as the newest one. It's basically all of my essays

1307
01:15:48.000 --> 01:15:52.479
<v Speaker 2>the last ten years, six hundred and sixty pages on theology, philosophy, geopolitics.

1308
01:15:52.520 --> 01:15:54.640
<v Speaker 2>I have a smaller book on philosophy you can get.

1309
01:15:54.840 --> 01:15:56.479
<v Speaker 2>Then I have my two Hollywood books and those are

1310
01:15:56.520 --> 01:15:59.000
<v Speaker 2>all signed copies, so if you order it from the website,

1311
01:15:59.039 --> 01:16:01.600
<v Speaker 2>you get signed copies. You can follow me on Rockfinn.

1312
01:16:01.920 --> 01:16:05.479
<v Speaker 2>My sponsors Chalk dot com the best in supplementation. Use

1313
01:16:05.560 --> 01:16:08.079
<v Speaker 2>promo code J fifty J WIFEI Zeria get fifty percent

1314
01:16:08.119 --> 01:16:12.439
<v Speaker 2>off all Chalk products choq dot com. And that's all

1315
01:16:12.479 --> 01:16:12.960
<v Speaker 2>I can think of.

1316
01:16:13.399 --> 01:16:16.760
<v Speaker 1>Amazing, Thank you so much, Jay, really really love this conversation.

1317
01:16:16.840 --> 01:16:19.159
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure we'll do more. Another book review is on

1318
01:16:19.199 --> 01:16:19.800
<v Speaker 1>the horizon.

1319
01:16:19.840 --> 01:16:21.640
<v Speaker 2>I think, oh yeah, we should definitely do that. By

1320
01:16:21.640 --> 01:16:24.520
<v Speaker 2>the way, you're also a co Fourth Hour host, and

1321
01:16:24.600 --> 01:16:26.319
<v Speaker 2>we both I think, have been pretty much killing it

1322
01:16:26.359 --> 01:16:27.119
<v Speaker 2>in the Fourth Hours.

1323
01:16:27.399 --> 01:16:30.720
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, absolutely, Jay's been there a lot longer than me,

1324
01:16:31.279 --> 01:16:36.119
<v Speaker 1>but bringing amazing, amazing quality information to the Alex Jones

1325
01:16:36.159 --> 01:16:38.479
<v Speaker 1>Show each Friday? Is it Jay that your host?

1326
01:16:39.319 --> 01:16:43.079
<v Speaker 2>Yes, you do get confused because.

1327
01:16:42.680 --> 01:16:47.279
<v Speaker 1>For me it's Saturday. No, I'm on Tuesdays, which are

1328
01:16:47.279 --> 01:16:48.840
<v Speaker 1>Wednesdays in Australia.

1329
01:16:49.520 --> 01:16:53.439
<v Speaker 2>Gotcha, Yeah, I'm every Friday, and yeah, I usually I

1330
01:16:53.479 --> 01:16:55.279
<v Speaker 2>try to check out yours as well, so you've been

1331
01:16:55.319 --> 01:16:55.760
<v Speaker 2>killing it.

1332
01:16:55.960 --> 01:16:58.800
<v Speaker 1>Thanks Jay, really appreciate you. Thank you for all your work.

1333
01:16:58.880 --> 01:16:59.800
<v Speaker 1>God bless and we'll talk

1334
01:16:59.800 --> 01:17:02.199
<v Speaker 2>To you sin Likewise, thanking Maria