1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,720
Speaker 1: Jay, Dayah, it is wonderful to have you back. Thank

2
00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:04,480
you so much for joining us.

3
00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,559
Speaker 2: Thank you, Maria. I always enjoy our conversation, so I'm

4
00:00:07,559 --> 00:00:08,279
glad to be back.

5
00:00:08,839 --> 00:00:11,359
Speaker 1: Likewise, I have to say, you know, since we met

6
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,400
in person last year and did our book review of

7
00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:17,440
Orthodoxy in the Religion of the Future, we had a

8
00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,120
lot of good feedback on that and a lot of

9
00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,760
people interested in this topic. I recently conducted an interview

10
00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,039
with an Orthodox priest and I want to I really

11
00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,359
want to focus on this subject with you today. I

12
00:00:31,399 --> 00:00:33,320
know that we've touched on this in the past, Jay,

13
00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:39,359
but viewers may not be aware of your previous life

14
00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:44,280
and your transition into Orthodoxy. So if you will just

15
00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,240
take people through a little bit of that history and

16
00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,000
you realizing that the Orthodox Church was the one true church.

17
00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:57,759
Speaker 2: I was raised a Southern Baptist and was nominal. I

18
00:00:57,759 --> 00:01:02,159
mean we would go some here and there, and then

19
00:01:02,719 --> 00:01:06,719
got more serious about religion in my high school period.

20
00:01:06,879 --> 00:01:08,840
My senior year, I started going to a lot of

21
00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:15,760
evangelical Bible studies and church meetings and decided I would

22
00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,799
study the history of the church more in depth. I

23
00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,719
got into theology and philosophy when I was eighteen nineteen,

24
00:01:22,239 --> 00:01:26,959
started studying that at the academic level for college, and

25
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,040
then continued studying that in a related way in grad school,

26
00:01:31,159 --> 00:01:34,400
not so much the theology per se, but worldviews and

27
00:01:34,439 --> 00:01:37,319
the idea of what we call worldview warfare, and how

28
00:01:37,719 --> 00:01:40,719
systems and worldviews and paradigms work in people's as the

29
00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,599
models of people's belief systems. And then in my twenties

30
00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,959
I decided that Protestantism didn't really have a lot to offer,

31
00:01:50,079 --> 00:01:52,760
so I got really interested in the history of the Church,

32
00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,879
as I said, and at that time, a lot of

33
00:01:54,879 --> 00:02:00,840
the online discussion for the debates in their sphere were

34
00:02:00,879 --> 00:02:03,239
basically just Protestant and Catholics. I didn't know about the

35
00:02:03,319 --> 00:02:06,719
Orthodox Church in my twenties. I wasn't averse to it,

36
00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,319
I just didn't know much about it, and so I

37
00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,360
thought the debate was basically just Protestant versus Catholics. So

38
00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,719
I became a Roman Catholic in two thousand and three,

39
00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,919
I believe, and was in that world for eight or

40
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,280
nine years, and a lot of I think when you

41
00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,000
live that for a while, you start to notice there's

42
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,960
some pretty significant problems. But you don't want to jump

43
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,719
ship too quick. So I attended the traditional Latin Mass

44
00:02:29,759 --> 00:02:32,240
for many years, and I was really into Thomas Aquinas

45
00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:37,560
and Tomistic philosophy and trying to be as traditionally minded

46
00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,439
as possible. As the Vatican continued to be more and

47
00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:43,560
more liberal, and eventually I just felt like there weren't

48
00:02:43,599 --> 00:02:47,759
solid answers to the questions that I had as Roman Catholic,

49
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,039
and so I started studying Orthodoxy in about two thousand

50
00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,719
and seven. I made some friends that were Orthodox, and

51
00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,919
they recommended a lot of books. I was seeing a

52
00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,120
girl at the time and we were considering both with

53
00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,120
entering the Orthodox Church. At the same time, we were

54
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,280
probably going to be married, so I went through the

55
00:03:04,319 --> 00:03:08,240
catechumen even back then and decided not to convert. So

56
00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,280
I held off and decided I would just kind of wait.

57
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,840
I wasn't really ready. I have so many, so much

58
00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:20,479
theological ideological baggage from my previous beliefs as a Roman Catholic,

59
00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,400
that it took me a really long time to work

60
00:03:22,439 --> 00:03:25,400
through a lot of the issues. So I just held

61
00:03:25,439 --> 00:03:29,520
off and kind of got burned out even on going

62
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,639
to church and going to the sort of standard Catholic services,

63
00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,599
and I was a little wild for those years in

64
00:03:37,639 --> 00:03:43,240
my late twenties early thirties, and then by about mid thirties,

65
00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,280
I guess I started getting a little more serious and

66
00:03:45,319 --> 00:03:49,479
getting back into reading a lot of philosophy texts, reading

67
00:03:49,479 --> 00:03:53,360
a lot of certain church fathers like Saint Maximistic Professor

68
00:03:53,479 --> 00:03:57,680
and certain Orthodox theologians like Vladimir Lawski or Father Dmitri

69
00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,520
stun Eloy. They stand out out as books that really

70
00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,120
writers that really influenced me to eventually convert. So about

71
00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,960
twenty fourteen I was getting more serious and kind of

72
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,199
going back to church, and I guess it was about

73
00:04:12,199 --> 00:04:17,199
twenty seventeen that I went back into being catechumen and

74
00:04:17,959 --> 00:04:21,120
formally joined. So twenty seventeen catechumen. I think I was

75
00:04:21,199 --> 00:04:25,680
Chris made in twenty eighteen. So yeah, So that was

76
00:04:25,759 --> 00:04:30,079
my short form journey during the period when I wasn't

77
00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,040
really to go into church in my late twenties and

78
00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,040
early thirties. I didn't become an atheist. I think a

79
00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,480
lot of people have atheists phases or something, but I

80
00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:41,399
more so was just reading a lot of different perennial

81
00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:46,720
text neoplatonic stuff. So I wasn't atheist, but I was

82
00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,959
kind of interested in a lot of different positions. And yeah,

83
00:04:49,959 --> 00:04:52,800
I would say Father Stefrom Rose two had an important

84
00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,000
impact as well. His book Nihilism Roots of the Modern

85
00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,720
Revolution impacted me pretty significantly, probably in twenty fIF teen sixteen.

86
00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,160
So that's the short version of and then here we

87
00:05:04,199 --> 00:05:06,360
are today, where you know, I've spent a lot of

88
00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,560
time kind of discussing orthodox philosophy and theology for the

89
00:05:11,639 --> 00:05:13,240
last five or six years.

90
00:05:13,639 --> 00:05:16,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I watch her debates all the time. We love

91
00:05:16,879 --> 00:05:19,240
your content here at Z Media. We encourage everyone to

92
00:05:19,439 --> 00:05:23,519
check out Jay's YouTube channel and his website. I'll bring

93
00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,360
all of that up throughout throughout the interview, But yeah,

94
00:05:26,639 --> 00:05:30,040
Jayson in our lounge room regularly, so.

95
00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:32,800
Speaker 2: I appreciate it.

96
00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:39,000
Speaker 1: Of course. I find, you know, some of the arguments.

97
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:43,800
It's interesting because I think it's really easy to say

98
00:05:44,759 --> 00:05:47,720
not easy, and I'm not in any way diminishing those

99
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,920
who do it, but I think it's easy to debate

100
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,639
atheists in the sense that the atheist worldview just doesn't

101
00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,720
make sense. It doesn't make sense. There's no it's illogical,

102
00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,199
it's unscientific. And I'm talking about like say, double evolutionists,

103
00:06:01,199 --> 00:06:05,399
like it's to me, you know, you are placing your

104
00:06:05,439 --> 00:06:09,639
blind faith in a theory that has never been proven,

105
00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,680
the same way that someone with a religion in a

106
00:06:12,759 --> 00:06:15,360
belief in a god would. I mean, that's the way

107
00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:17,360
that I've always viewed it. And so, you know, I

108
00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,480
used to do People may not know this. I was,

109
00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,720
you know, in the Evangelical Church for many years, used

110
00:06:24,759 --> 00:06:28,240
to do street ministry, you know, talking with people on

111
00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:34,000
the street of people of all worldviews, very very highly

112
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,879
Muslim populated area, so I got to talk to a

113
00:06:36,879 --> 00:06:39,160
lot of Muslims as well. It was great. I loved it.

114
00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,959
I loved doing it because I love people and I

115
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,480
loved discussing world views, and so that was something I

116
00:06:45,519 --> 00:06:49,439
was very passionate about. But it was from an Evangelical stance.

117
00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,839
And then it was really during the COVID era that

118
00:06:52,959 --> 00:06:55,720
I returned to Orthodoxy, which is you know, I was

119
00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,279
baptized Orthodox as a child, and really you know, spent

120
00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,199
a few years there. It was about eight years in

121
00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:07,399
the Evangelical Church, so long time. And and and you

122
00:07:07,439 --> 00:07:11,639
know what I've found, Jay was a lot of unlearning

123
00:07:12,319 --> 00:07:16,600
has happened since that time of what I thought was

124
00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,959
correct doctrine, what I thought was correct theology, and there

125
00:07:21,959 --> 00:07:25,839
were a lot of sticking points for me, you know,

126
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,040
coming to realize the truth about Orthodoxy that exist for

127
00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,199
a lot of Protestants these days. When I talk to

128
00:07:32,279 --> 00:07:35,480
my friends from my former church and I've returned to Orthodoxy,

129
00:07:35,839 --> 00:07:40,240
they think that I've become an idolator, an image worshiper,

130
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:42,600
you know, all of this kind of stuff. So I

131
00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,120
want to focus on that with you, in terms of

132
00:07:46,199 --> 00:07:50,959
the you know, the common misconceptions or the common arguments

133
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,800
that a lot of Protestants bring up. You know, for example,

134
00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:59,879
you worship saints. Let's just start with the biggest one.

135
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,879
Speaker 2: I think these are pretty common objections. You know, everybody

136
00:08:02,879 --> 00:08:06,959
has faces, especially if you have an atheist or excuse me,

137
00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,240
a biblical or evangelical background, You're going to have some

138
00:08:10,319 --> 00:08:13,920
of these roadblocks where there's stuff that seems foreign an

139
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,720
odd and in that case, it's it's interesting that a

140
00:08:17,759 --> 00:08:20,759
lot of times atheists that convert typically maybe might even

141
00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,839
have less baggage because you know, they weren't hammered into,

142
00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,839
you know, thinking for many years that any kind of

143
00:08:27,879 --> 00:08:31,720
imagery is somehow inherently idolatrous. But yeah, I remember I

144
00:08:31,959 --> 00:08:33,559
kind of worked through a lot of those issues back

145
00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,000
when I was, you know, in my early twenties kind

146
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,480
of sussing out between protest and Catholic, And I remember

147
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,679
going to a church and seeing relics for the first time,

148
00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:42,799
and I remember thinking it was a little odd. It

149
00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:46,360
never really experienced that being you know, raised Baptists. But

150
00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,960
the logic of it is pretty solid if you you know,

151
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,720
if you're familiar with the Old Testament, especially because we

152
00:08:52,759 --> 00:08:56,159
have stories where the bones of Elisha, right, that people

153
00:08:56,159 --> 00:08:59,440
get raised from the dead because they're exposed to those bones.

154
00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,000
In the Book of Back, we see you know, Paul

155
00:09:03,399 --> 00:09:08,240
casting out demons through you know, cloths that he that

156
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,360
he had, that we're part, that we're near his body.

157
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,240
We see Jesus's garments heal people, and so physical matter

158
00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,960
has the ability to take on the power or what

159
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,879
we call the divine energies and the Orthodox sphere. So

160
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,159
when I think, when we start to understand it from

161
00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,519
that perspective, that the point is that we would be

162
00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,960
participants in the divine energies, and that we ourselves in

163
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,399
our bodies, even not just our minds or our souls,

164
00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,919
but our bodies become participants in the divine life as well,

165
00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,759
and that's the point of the resurrection. The resurrection is

166
00:09:38,799 --> 00:09:42,879
really the future eschatological end times reality that begins in

167
00:09:42,919 --> 00:09:45,600
the here and the now with the energies that we

168
00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:47,879
were take of in this life, and those divine energies

169
00:09:47,919 --> 00:09:51,240
are really just what we mean the Orthocers by grace.

170
00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,720
So it's an uncreated life, power and reality that comes

171
00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,440
to us not by our works, but by the grace

172
00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,759
of God. That's what we participate in. So it's a

173
00:09:59,799 --> 00:10:03,320
much it's more fleshed out, I guess you could say

174
00:10:03,519 --> 00:10:06,720
metaphysical notion of what grace is, rather than the typical

175
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:11,039
Protestant idea that grace is just God's disposition towards you.

176
00:10:11,519 --> 00:10:14,720
So we do agree that there is a dispositional element

177
00:10:14,759 --> 00:10:18,200
that you move away from being kind of adverse to

178
00:10:18,279 --> 00:10:20,320
God to now being the friend of God or to

179
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,080
being sons of God, et cetera. But to be in

180
00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,240
that role requires also the transformation of the person in

181
00:10:27,279 --> 00:10:31,480
a real metaphysical sense. So that's our view of grace

182
00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,440
and what it is. And you know, we see that

183
00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,200
in text like John seventeen, where Jesus says that he

184
00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,440
came to give us a share in the glory that

185
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,600
he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.

186
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,080
And of course glory, God's glory is not a creature, right,

187
00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,639
it's an uncreated reality. So we become partakers of the

188
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:54,279
uncreated reality of God without participating in the divine essence itself.

189
00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,440
So we'll never become by nature what God is, but

190
00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,559
we do become like God by grace, and that's what

191
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,320
we call theosis. And so that's the essence interview distinction

192
00:11:04,399 --> 00:11:05,960
that you probably hear a lot of people in Orthodox

193
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,039
Church talk about. That's our conception of grace, and it

194
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,720
also underlies the conception that we have of why would

195
00:11:11,759 --> 00:11:16,519
we why we would ask saints to intercede or believe that,

196
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,519
you know, relics or icons have the ability to be

197
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,559
positive influences in our life in a conduit of grace sense,

198
00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,559
so they become kind of sacramental realities for us. And

199
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,480
it's all premised on the incarnation itself. Right, you have

200
00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,480
the second person of the Godhead, the Logos, assuming human nature,

201
00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,000
and by that very action of assuming it, healing it,

202
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,960
repairing it, and making it itself a channel of grace.

203
00:11:43,399 --> 00:11:48,840
So Likewise, other physical material objects can also become channels

204
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,320
of grace. So we don't worship them because they're material

205
00:11:52,399 --> 00:11:56,399
in themselves. They're still creatures, but those creatures can become

206
00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,360
condos of grace, just as we can as individual people,

207
00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,840
and our bodies even become conduits. And so that's the

208
00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,799
theological meaning behind relics, and that's why relics existed in

209
00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,039
the Old Testament and they continue to exist into the

210
00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,080
New Testament Church. And it's the same principle behind why

211
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,519
For example, in the Book of Revelation, if you read

212
00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,360
chapters five to eight, when John sees into heaven, he

213
00:12:20,399 --> 00:12:24,639
sees a very elaborate, ornate worship service. In that liturgical

214
00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:30,120
worship service, it's very ordered, smells, bells, incense, vestiments, elders, right,

215
00:12:30,279 --> 00:12:34,600
priesthood offering, sacrifice going on in heaven. We believe that

216
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,639
that's actually the exact same service going on in the

217
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:42,639
Orthodox Church. And so that's why it's a reality. It's

218
00:12:42,639 --> 00:12:45,279
not just symbols for us. It's a symbol and a

219
00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,759
reality at the same time. And so likewise, we can

220
00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:52,080
ask those people who have gone on before us in

221
00:12:52,519 --> 00:12:54,519
the life of the Church to pray for us. So

222
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,080
technically speaking, we're not praying to them like their God.

223
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,600
We're asking them as fellow intercessors to pray. And that's

224
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,519
why in the Book of Revelation, John sees the martyrs

225
00:13:05,799 --> 00:13:08,639
offering the prayers of the saints on the earth, and

226
00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:10,960
so that's the whole principle behind the intercession of the

227
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:11,840
saints right there.

228
00:13:12,399 --> 00:13:17,480
Speaker 1: So the I guess the I don't know if I'm

229
00:13:17,919 --> 00:13:24,080
the pre true rapture. People would argue that those people

230
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,240
that have been martyred that are praying are those that

231
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,720
you know, were left behind and then ended up being

232
00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,039
persecuted during the reign of the Antichrist, and therefore that's

233
00:13:33,039 --> 00:13:35,840
who they are. They're not actually the saints is as

234
00:13:35,919 --> 00:13:38,960
per the Orthodox Church. Then you'll have the people that say, well,

235
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,639
there is one intercessor or one mediator, I should say,

236
00:13:41,639 --> 00:13:45,399
between God and men, Jesus Christ. Why would you pray

237
00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:46,320
to a saint?

238
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,279
Speaker 2: Right, So a lot of verses have to be balanced

239
00:13:51,279 --> 00:13:54,639
with other verses. So, for example, Paul says things like

240
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,159
I think to Timothy, he says, if you follow my teachings,

241
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,200
you will be able to save those around you. So

242
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,240
that doesn't mean that Timothy literally becomes Jesus and becomes

243
00:14:04,279 --> 00:14:08,080
a savior. It means that he's a cooperator, a co worker,

244
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,399
as Paul says about himself, that he's a co worker

245
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,559
with Christ to bring people to salvation. And so sometimes

246
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,120
in the technical theological terminology this is just called middle salvation,

247
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,120
and it just means that the person that brings you

248
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,039
to salvation is in a sense a savior for you.

249
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,159
Doesn't mean that they are literally Jesus. It just means

250
00:14:27,159 --> 00:14:29,679
that they cooperated in that work. You read the Book

251
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:31,919
of Amos, for example, this is an idea even in

252
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:36,399
the Old Testament, that God decides not to met out

253
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:41,759
the full punishment on Israel because Amos interceded. So intercession

254
00:14:41,919 --> 00:14:46,080
is something that's very real in those examples. And again,

255
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,240
the saints that are in heaven are not what John

256
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,600
is seeing is not the martyrs at the end of

257
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,320
the world. He's seeing the people that were martyred in

258
00:14:55,399 --> 00:14:57,279
his day. So if you look at the Book of Revelation,

259
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,879
it starts by saying the things that are listed are

260
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,679
to come to pass. And the traditional acts of Jesus

261
00:15:03,759 --> 00:15:09,320
of the Church was never strictly speaking, anything like pre tribulation,

262
00:15:09,559 --> 00:15:13,840
rapture pre millennialism that exist as an early theory, but

263
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,759
by the time of the Second Ecumenical Council, and then

264
00:15:17,799 --> 00:15:21,840
by the Third Ecumenical Council, it's excluded. And that's why

265
00:15:21,919 --> 00:15:24,679
the Creed says, whose kingdom shall have no end? So

266
00:15:24,799 --> 00:15:27,960
christ Kingdom is not a thousand year kingdom. A thousand

267
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,120
years is just as symbolic as when it says God

268
00:15:31,159 --> 00:15:33,720
owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Does that mean

269
00:15:33,759 --> 00:15:36,960
that on thousand on hill one thousand and one that's

270
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,639
not owned by God. No, it's just a symbolic time

271
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,000
that expresses a really long ay honor era. And so

272
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:48,279
christ Kingdom, as you notice in the Gospels, is where

273
00:15:48,279 --> 00:15:50,559
the king is. And so Jesus says, the Kingdom of

274
00:15:50,559 --> 00:15:53,759
God has not come with signs, it comes it's within you.

275
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,360
And so the kingdom is an internal spiritual reality wherever

276
00:15:57,399 --> 00:16:00,720
the Holy Spirit is. So the Kingdom is the Church.

277
00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:03,320
And that's why Matthew sixteen he identifies it as the

278
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,840
institution that he sets up that the gates of Hell

279
00:16:05,879 --> 00:16:08,720
would not prevail against it. And Peter and the Apostles,

280
00:16:08,879 --> 00:16:11,120
not just Peter, but Peter and the Apostles very Matthew

281
00:16:11,159 --> 00:16:15,960
sixteen and Matthew eighteen have a collegial reality that is

282
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,440
identified with the Kingdom. The kingdom is chaired by the

283
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,879
princes of the New Covenant, who Jesus later when he

284
00:16:22,919 --> 00:16:25,279
institutes the Lord's Supper, says, you will sit with me

285
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,159
on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Okay,

286
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,000
the twelve Tribes of Israel is the new Israel. The

287
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,159
spiritual reality that Matthew twenty two, twenty three, and twenty

288
00:16:34,159 --> 00:16:40,080
four elucidate replaced the Old Testament Israel reality. So there's

289
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,480
something evil inherently about Israel in the Old Testament sense,

290
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,480
or not genetically evil or anything like that. It was

291
00:16:47,519 --> 00:16:52,679
a typological reality that's fulfilled in the spiritual kingdom of

292
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,759
the Church. But spiritual, as many evangelicals think, does not

293
00:16:55,799 --> 00:16:59,200
mean anti physical, it doesn't mean antihistorical. It's a very

294
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:05,079
historic institutional reality that's set up at the time of

295
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,440
christ first coming. And the other element that I think

296
00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:12,759
evangelicals of Protestants oftentimes miss out on is the notion

297
00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:16,359
of Pentecost. Pentecost, especially if you look in Acts two

298
00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:20,480
and when it cites Joel three, Joel is not primarily

299
00:17:20,559 --> 00:17:22,200
talking about the end of the world. It might have

300
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,039
an application to the end of the world. But when

301
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,279
Acts two cites Joel about the Holy the Spirit will

302
00:17:29,319 --> 00:17:32,319
fall upon your descendants and your men, your women, your

303
00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,559
children will see visions, there'll be signs in the heavens.

304
00:17:34,759 --> 00:17:39,440
That's all fulfilled explicitly at Pentecost, and so the First

305
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,119
Advent is typically where the locus of the action is.

306
00:17:43,279 --> 00:17:46,839
That most evangelicals and pre millennialists boot to the end

307
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,720
of the world, which makes all of these important prophecies

308
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:54,880
and fulfillments irrelevant. Because if Jesus is predicting in Luke

309
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,759
twenty one the destruction of Jerusalem in seventy eighty, then

310
00:17:58,799 --> 00:18:02,359
what a powerful attestation to the veracity of the Gospels

311
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,720
that is fulfilled in seventy eight. Now I don't mean everything.

312
00:18:05,759 --> 00:18:08,279
I don't believe the second Coming, but you'll find many,

313
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,079
many passages where Jesus says that he would come, you know,

314
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,319
on the clouds, and that he would punish you know, Israel,

315
00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,519
and so forth. Again. Luke twenty one, because it's written

316
00:18:19,599 --> 00:18:23,759
to a product to a gentile audience, is a lot

317
00:18:23,799 --> 00:18:26,400
more specific than what you get in Matthew twenty four.

318
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,759
So Lake twenty one describes it in a very clear

319
00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:32,720
way that when you speakin to the audience there in

320
00:18:32,799 --> 00:18:36,960
Jesus presence, see Jerusalem surrounded by enemies, know that it's time,

321
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,039
its desolation is near. That's exactly what happened a few

322
00:18:41,079 --> 00:18:44,480
decades later, because he describes this for his immediate audience,

323
00:18:44,519 --> 00:18:47,440
that they would see these things occur. And that's why,

324
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,400
whether it's Athenacious, or whether it's Saint John Chrysostom, or

325
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,400
whether it's Saint Cyril of Alexandria, all the earliest, really

326
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,839
important theologians of the Church, the ones that solidified the

327
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,960
doctrine of the Trinity, the doctrine of Christology for us,

328
00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:02,880
they all believe that that was referring to seventy eight.

329
00:19:03,599 --> 00:19:06,279
They didn't primarily make it about the end of the world.

330
00:19:06,519 --> 00:19:08,839
I do think that seventy eight and the destruction of

331
00:19:08,839 --> 00:19:11,279
the Temple, which is what Hebrews is talking about, that's

332
00:19:11,279 --> 00:19:14,640
the end of the Old Covenant system, which is demonstrated

333
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,279
by the events of seventy eight when Titus Vespasian destroys

334
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,279
the Temple in Jerusalem. That's a sign that the Old

335
00:19:22,319 --> 00:19:24,799
Covenants done the New Covenant is here. The New Coven

336
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,880
is the fulfillment of all those old Covenant types, and

337
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,720
the New Coven is the reality. So what Protestanism Evangelicalism

338
00:19:31,759 --> 00:19:35,240
typically does, and it's not always intentional, is that rather

339
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,759
than accepting the realities that the New Covenant brings, they

340
00:19:38,759 --> 00:19:42,039
typically want to go back to the symbolic structure of

341
00:19:42,039 --> 00:19:45,279
the Old Testament. Oh, Baptism just a symbol, the Lord's

342
00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:47,960
Supper just a symbol, right. The church is just this

343
00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,119
fallible human institution. That's a symbol, you know. And the

344
00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,359
New Testament, the Church is said to be the body

345
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,519
of the god Man or the theanthroposts, the god Man,

346
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,559
that's the body of Christ. We are the extension of

347
00:20:00,599 --> 00:20:04,119
the incarnation the churches. So there's not a whole lot

348
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,319
of churches that can lay claim to that. And if

349
00:20:06,319 --> 00:20:07,960
you look at the study of the first thousand years

350
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,359
of Christianity, and there is one institution that's the Orthodox

351
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:12,759
Church at least least claim to that.

352
00:20:14,279 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 1: When did Because church history matters a lot, and it's

353
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,400
often something that you know, in Protestant circles, we need

354
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,160
to return to the Book of Acts, we need to

355
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,200
return to that time where there was you know, miracles,

356
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,680
and the church was, you know, sold everything, they have

357
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:35,359
gave everything. It was interesting. I remember chalaging good pastor

358
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:36,640
of this a while ago, and I said, well, the

359
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,079
church isn't really operating how it used to. And the

360
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,160
response to me was, we'll sell everything you have and

361
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,799
give it to me and then see how we operate,

362
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,200
which was a fair challenge. But you know, you hear

363
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,279
that from a lot of evangelicals, and we need to

364
00:20:51,319 --> 00:20:52,720
return to the Book of Acts and all of this

365
00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:55,039
sort of stuff. And yet if you read the Book

366
00:20:55,039 --> 00:20:59,440
of Acts through a non Protestant lens, you'll actually see

367
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,480
the established of the original church and so all the

368
00:21:02,519 --> 00:21:06,000
beginnings of it. So can you talk us through the

369
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,680
history of the establishment of the church? Why is the

370
00:21:09,759 --> 00:21:11,319
Orthodox Church the original Church?

371
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,759
Speaker 2: Well, if we look in the Book of Acts, we see,

372
00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:20,200
for example, Judas, his episcopos in the Greek is replaced.

373
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,200
So when Judas dies, someone replaces him in his seat.

374
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,720
And so this is the idea of the successors to

375
00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:29,319
the apostles, or apsolute succession. And we find this in

376
00:21:29,319 --> 00:21:32,319
Paul's epistles as well, that Paul says he laid hands

377
00:21:32,319 --> 00:21:34,519
on Timothy and he tells Timothy not to lay hands

378
00:21:34,519 --> 00:21:37,920
on anyone else in Ephesus hastily, because through the laying

379
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,960
on of hands, you have the transmission of the gift

380
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,319
and power of the Holy Spirit for the office of

381
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,680
the bishop. And that is not in Protestants, and Protestism

382
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,440
does not have a right or a theology typically where

383
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,599
they recognize any sort of historic succession, do they laying

384
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,640
on of hands back to the apostles. But that's exactly

385
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,720
what Paul says in his epistles to Timothy, and he

386
00:21:58,759 --> 00:22:02,200
says basically that I point, did you no one else

387
00:22:02,519 --> 00:22:05,759
to be the authority, my representative, my successor in Ephesus,

388
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:11,480
and you do Likewise, that's apisodic succession. So that's our

389
00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:13,680
reading not just of the Book of Acts, but also

390
00:22:13,759 --> 00:22:16,319
the book the Books that Paul wrote. And if we

391
00:22:16,319 --> 00:22:18,519
look at the Book of Acts, we see this point

392
00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:20,880
that I mentioned earlier about Pentecost, which is that in

393
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,640
John fourteen to sixteen, Jesus really lays out the role

394
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,519
of the Holy Spirit in the life and history of

395
00:22:26,599 --> 00:22:28,720
the Church. So if we understand this is a real

396
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,599
historical context here where Jesus is saying that I will

397
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,119
send the Holy Spirit. He will come and empower you.

398
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,799
I will never leave you and never forsake you. The

399
00:22:37,839 --> 00:22:39,960
Spirit will lead you and guide you to all truth.

400
00:22:40,519 --> 00:22:42,640
The gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church.

401
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:48,559
Then when that happens in Acts two, that historical church

402
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,960
can't lose. The Spirit can't lose, the faith can't be conquered.

403
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,400
There might be areas or churches that are part of

404
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:03,839
the universal Church that fall away, even patriarch's bishops fall away,

405
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,880
but the whole entire entity can't fail. And so that's

406
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,920
why we believe that the Orthodox Church has maintained and

407
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,279
continued that consistent testimony. And when you read the first

408
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,319
thousand years, you find out that you know, one of

409
00:23:17,319 --> 00:23:19,960
the common Protestant objections, for example, is that, oh, the

410
00:23:20,079 --> 00:23:22,559
Church changed and became pagan at the Council of Nicea.

411
00:23:23,319 --> 00:23:25,359
So when I first started studying this back in two

412
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,680
thousand and three, I bought the Church Father's set, all

413
00:23:27,759 --> 00:23:29,720
thirty eight volumes of it. I didn't read all the

414
00:23:29,759 --> 00:23:31,759
thirty eight volumes, but I went through first the early

415
00:23:31,839 --> 00:23:34,680
Church Fathers. So when you read the post Apostolic Fathers

416
00:23:34,799 --> 00:23:37,079
right after the death of John and Paul and all

417
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:42,200
those people. You realize that Clement, Ignacious Aaron as justin

418
00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:46,599
Martyr Cyprian, all church fathers that were very prominent prior

419
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,799
to the Council of Nicia. They taught all the things

420
00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:52,559
that the Orthodox Church still teaches and all the things

421
00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:55,839
that Protestants think the Council of Nicea and three twenty

422
00:23:55,839 --> 00:23:59,079
five corrupted. So you find them teaching about relics, you

423
00:23:59,079 --> 00:24:02,079
find them teaching about saints, you find them teaching bishops

424
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,440
in a succession. You find them talking about the real

425
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,920
presence of Christ and the Euchars. You find them talking

426
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,720
about you know, councils, the church being run by synods

427
00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:15,640
modeled on Acts fifteen in the Jerusalem Synod, so sinodal

428
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,599
church government, bishopric, hierarchy, you know, all of those elements

429
00:24:19,599 --> 00:24:23,039
are there in those early church fathers. And for me,

430
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,960
that pretty much said, well, look, it's not Protestant, it's

431
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,480
not Evangelical, so you know, it's got to be Orthodox

432
00:24:29,839 --> 00:24:32,319
or Catholic. I mean, that's the realization I came to,

433
00:24:32,759 --> 00:24:35,119
you know, back in my twenties. Again, I didn't know

434
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,839
much about Orthodoxy at that time, but so I mean

435
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,200
I think that but for the for the point against

436
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,599
the Protestant idea of that pretty much I think solidifies it.

437
00:24:43,599 --> 00:24:46,559
And then when you get into, for example, more devastating

438
00:24:46,599 --> 00:24:49,799
issues like you know, for me as a Protestant, obviously

439
00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:51,839
I believed in Solar script Heira that the Bible is

440
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,720
the only, ultimate, final, infallible authority. But then when you

441
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,920
get into the history of the formation of the Biblical Canon,

442
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,079
you realize that this didn't drop out out of the sky.

443
00:25:01,279 --> 00:25:03,960
You know, it didn't come about in a vacuum. The

444
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,119
Bible is a collection of books, and the history of

445
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:12,319
the Church is you can't divide that from the formation

446
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,839
and process of the Biblical Canon. That's the books that

447
00:25:14,839 --> 00:25:17,359
were decided upon that would be in the Bible and

448
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,599
would be accepted. And this is a centuries long process

449
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,400
that really only gets solidified by about the fourth to

450
00:25:23,559 --> 00:25:26,880
sixth century in the East and the West in the

451
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,480
first thousand years of Christianity. So for the Orthodox Church

452
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,119
are acceptances the Council of Trello, which is then accepted

453
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,480
by the sixth and seventh Council, and in the West

454
00:25:37,599 --> 00:25:39,599
is typically about the fourth or fifth century, and the

455
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,200
decrees of Pope Damasis, where they basically accept the same

456
00:25:44,279 --> 00:25:47,319
canon as the Orthodox in the East. So basically we

457
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,799
have a canon that's including the Deutero economical books or

458
00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:55,920
what Protestants called the apocrypha, pretty much universally accepted by

459
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,640
the sixth seventh century. So Protestants again are really sort

460
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,480
of on the outs in a historical when they say, well,

461
00:26:03,079 --> 00:26:06,839
we just choose the canon that Jerome had, Well, why

462
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,160
do you pick one church father not another church father?

463
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,759
It really becomes very arbitrary, and then they'll say things like, well,

464
00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:14,400
we just go with what the Jews said. Well, but

465
00:26:14,599 --> 00:26:17,400
by the second and third century, the Jewish canon was

466
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,599
already anti Christian, so they were already trying to solidify

467
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,920
their notion of a loose canon to combat to Christianity.

468
00:26:27,079 --> 00:26:29,319
So why would we listen to not the people that

469
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,079
Jesus put in charge, the Apostles and their successors, the Church.

470
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,079
Wouldn't the church have the authority to decide the canon. Remember,

471
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,640
Peter Paul says to Timothy, the Church is the pillar

472
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,440
and ground of truth. He doesn't say the Bible texts

473
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,240
are the pillar and ground of truth. He says the

474
00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:48,640
actual living entity of the Church. And then he says

475
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,160
to the Thessalonians and second Thessalonians that you should follow

476
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,680
whatever I teach, whether written or oral. So Paul explicitly

477
00:26:56,759 --> 00:27:00,759
tells the Thessalonian Church to keep. Aren't just what is

478
00:27:00,759 --> 00:27:03,640
written texts or what written gospels and texts they might have,

479
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,720
because they most of the early Church didn't have everything.

480
00:27:05,759 --> 00:27:08,640
They didn't have all the texts for many centuries. He

481
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,119
tells them to keep the written and oral traditions.

482
00:27:11,599 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 1: And in terms of the oral traditions, and you know,

483
00:27:16,279 --> 00:27:20,279
I suppose this does tie into apostolic succession and the

484
00:27:20,319 --> 00:27:26,640
authority of those that have been selected by the Orthodox Church,

485
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,319
can you talk to us about the record of the

486
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:38,319
oral traditions, because I see, you know, a pretty comprehensive

487
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,000
record kept by the Orthodox Church of those traditions that

488
00:27:42,079 --> 00:27:45,759
are still kept to date. The Da Daki as one

489
00:27:45,759 --> 00:27:50,119
of those, you know, books that's often referenced back to

490
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,000
which you know you've spoken to us about before as well.

491
00:27:57,559 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we could look to things like the

492
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:05,799
key or liturgical psalms and hymns that were cited in

493
00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:09,119
the early Church, and they might constitute elements of tradition.

494
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,519
But I would want to give an example of something

495
00:28:13,759 --> 00:28:17,400
like the liturgy itself, right, I mean, for example, how

496
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,000
do we get the worship service that we have if

497
00:28:21,039 --> 00:28:25,000
it's not in the New Testament. Well, the reality is

498
00:28:25,039 --> 00:28:28,200
that the Apostles, when they went and founded the various

499
00:28:28,279 --> 00:28:31,160
churches throughout the Roman Empire, many of them gave a

500
00:28:31,279 --> 00:28:34,799
kind of a basic pattern of the worship service. And

501
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,440
so this is called a liturgical theology. This is the

502
00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:41,240
history where the church gets its patterns of worship, and

503
00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:45,680
the Apostles shows the rough outline the way they did

504
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,240
it from both the temple service, the ancient Jewish temple service,

505
00:28:50,319 --> 00:28:53,200
and the synagogue system in its services. So they kind

506
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,319
of combine elements of bose and that's why when you

507
00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:57,839
go to an Orthodox Church service, you will find it

508
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,519
to be very reminiscent of both temple elements the imagery,

509
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:08,599
and the synagogue elements of the antiphonal singing and liturgical

510
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,200
patterns that you find. So both things are going on

511
00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:15,319
to help the Apostles kind of come up with the

512
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,039
rough outline. But we notice that the New Testament itself

513
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,240
doesn't tell us how we're supposed to worship, and worship

514
00:29:22,279 --> 00:29:25,319
is something very important. And when we find passages where

515
00:29:25,319 --> 00:29:28,440
Paul says for example, in Hebrews thirteen, that we have

516
00:29:28,519 --> 00:29:32,119
an altar which those who serve at the Jewish Tabernacle

517
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,839
don't have any right to eat from. So there's an

518
00:29:35,079 --> 00:29:38,559
eating service and an altar. Okay, that right there is

519
00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:42,039
not Protestant because Protestantism rejects the idea of an altar,

520
00:29:42,079 --> 00:29:45,799
because an altar is a sacrificial thing, and Protestism believes

521
00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:50,240
that sacrifice is done and gone right Jesus. Jesus said

522
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,640
it's finished. There's no longer any need or notion for

523
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,880
priesthood or sacrifice. Well, but wait a minute, because the

524
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,920
New Testament says that we have an altar that we

525
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,319
eave from, and it also includes the idea idea that

526
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:05,359
Christ's priesthood isn't done, It's not finished. It's a Melchizedecian

527
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,160
priesthood that continues on. Yes, So the notion of priesthood

528
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,079
is still there. The notion of a sacrificial eucharistic offering

529
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,759
is also in the Book of Revelation going on in Heaven.

530
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,160
Paul says we have an altar that we eat from.

531
00:30:18,279 --> 00:30:22,160
Jesus talks about the New Testament being a fulfillment the

532
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,960
Lord's Supper, is a type of passover. So all of

533
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,720
these ideas, even though yeah, the reality comes with the

534
00:30:28,759 --> 00:30:32,319
first coming, it doesn't mean that everything is done away

535
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,119
in the sense of there's no more sacrifice, there's no

536
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,319
more alter. So that's why when you go to an

537
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,359
Orthodox church, you see there is a priesthood, there is

538
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,400
an altar, there is a sacrifice, there are vestiments, there

539
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,079
is incense. This actually fulfills the Old Testament prophecies and

540
00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:52,079
the Minor prophets that incense will be offered to my

541
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,279
name throughout the nations among the gentiles. How would incense

542
00:30:56,319 --> 00:30:59,319
be offered if there's not incense in the church, and

543
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,400
much most Protestant church churches don't believe in that.

544
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: So that's like idolatry in some way exactly. You know

545
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,440
that having a structure. It's really interesting though, because human beings,

546
00:31:13,559 --> 00:31:16,839
you know, are creatures of worship, and we're creatures of structure,

547
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,359
and you know the and you know, this isn't like

548
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,039
a Protestant bash, but for me, I can relate to

549
00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:26,039
it the most because I was one for so long.

550
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:32,839
You know. You know, it's like, you know, God's not

551
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,400
sitting here demanding that you stick to this format. He

552
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,720
wants free worship. You know, David danced and he revealed

553
00:31:39,799 --> 00:31:42,319
himself as he was dancing because he was so excited,

554
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,880
and you know, all this kind of stuff. And yet

555
00:31:46,079 --> 00:31:51,000
you know, there's like this format that everyone follows exactly.

556
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,519
Speaker 2: So let's think about that. That's a great point. So

557
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,079
remember God's not the author of confusion. If you read

558
00:31:57,079 --> 00:32:00,720
the book Paul's letters to the Corinthians, he's buking a

559
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,160
lot of their chaotic and things getting out of hand,

560
00:32:03,759 --> 00:32:06,599
and he says that keep the traditions that I delivered

561
00:32:06,599 --> 00:32:09,799
to you. He says the same thing to the Corinthians

562
00:32:09,799 --> 00:32:12,680
that he said to the Thessalonians. He doesn't mention oral

563
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,920
traditions there. But if that's mentioned, what are the traditions, Well,

564
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,079
Paul's talking about the teaching that he gave for many

565
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,039
months years at these different locations. For example, we're told

566
00:32:25,079 --> 00:32:27,680
in Acts. I think it's Acts twenty that Paul taught

567
00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:30,720
for three years, day and night in emphasis. So when

568
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,119
Paul tells Timothy to keep everything that you heard from

569
00:32:34,119 --> 00:32:37,079
me in the presence of many witnesses and passed that on,

570
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,440
he's talking about the body of oral teaching. Exposition prophecy, etc.

571
00:32:42,759 --> 00:32:46,279
That Paul gave for three years straight, all of it.

572
00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:48,759
He doesn't say, I taught you for three years. Now,

573
00:32:48,839 --> 00:32:51,960
just hand down this letter that I wrote, and he says,

574
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,000
the whole body of teachings. Okay, so they're catechizing, is

575
00:32:55,039 --> 00:32:56,720
what I'm trying to say. So like the same way,

576
00:32:57,319 --> 00:33:01,400
we can't think of oral tradition or that it's like

577
00:33:01,799 --> 00:33:06,119
necessarily going to be boiled down in a reductionist way

578
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,359
to just this thing over here. Uh, it's it's a

579
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,920
body of doctrines that would be passed down that might

580
00:33:14,079 --> 00:33:20,400
encapsulate Catechisis that meaning then the basic interpretive framework that

581
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,680
you would have when you're baptizing brought into the church

582
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,319
to learn the theology, to learn the interpretive structure of scripture,

583
00:33:27,359 --> 00:33:30,960
Because yes, you would have people reading scriptures as best

584
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,240
they could. Many of the people would be illiterate, so

585
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,759
they would have to be getting this information from oral catechisis.

586
00:33:37,799 --> 00:33:40,599
Most people couldn't read, and yet they were converting and

587
00:33:40,599 --> 00:33:43,400
becoming Christians, and most of the churches in the first, second, third,

588
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,880
four fifth century it didn't have the whole Bible. Well,

589
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,200
how are you getting Christians of the other so they're

590
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,640
being taught orally from the bishops, from the Levi, from

591
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,359
the deacons, which corresponds to the levit, and from the

592
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,920
press beitheros or the priests. So this is universal in

593
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,039
the church in the early days. But again, liturgy in

594
00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:03,160
the pattern of worship is very important because you know,

595
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:09,039
Paul applies the same warning about unworthily doing the Lord's

596
00:34:09,039 --> 00:34:12,960
Supper leading to death. Yes, and that's the same warning

597
00:34:13,599 --> 00:34:17,679
that happens in the Old Testament with nadab and Abaye

598
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,760
Whuo and people who offer strange fire and people who

599
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,480
get creative with worship. So you have the same curse

600
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:27,320
that Paul applies that's applied to the Old Testament. You know,

601
00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:31,760
violators of how to worship God by offering strange fire,

602
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,960
they're killed. Paul says that you might end up, you know,

603
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,920
God might strike you dead too, if you go against

604
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,079
the little world. Why would that be so severe a

605
00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:42,440
punishment if it's just a mere symbol. It's a really

606
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,320
severe punishment for things that are just plain and pure

607
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,760
empty symbols. Suppose now I'm not saying empty, that proses

608
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,199
they are empty. But so the point is that, no,

609
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,400
there's a liturgical background to what Paul's saying, And just

610
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:59,440
think about this. When Jesus went to church and he did,

611
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:04,760
did he worship in a crazy, wild, do it yourself way? No,

612
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,639
he worshiped dogs. Yeah, he worshiped in a synagogue structure

613
00:35:10,679 --> 00:35:11,679
that was very ordered.

614
00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:12,519
Speaker 1: Yes.

615
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,119
Speaker 2: Why would Jesus himself, the son of God number one,

616
00:35:16,159 --> 00:35:18,480
he's the one that gave all the liturgical worship to

617
00:35:18,559 --> 00:35:20,960
Israel in the Old Testament anyway, and then when he

618
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,599
comes to worship as our example, he worshiped liturgically in

619
00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:28,679
a very ordered way. And the assumption that many prisons

620
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,079
have is that, like you know, in the Book of

621
00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:35,320
Acts or something, because they had this period of manifestations

622
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:36,960
of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that oh, well,

623
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,880
then it was therefore chaotic. No, that's a non sequate.

624
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,440
Doesn't follow that because there are healings and miracles or

625
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,079
something like that, that it was chaotic. There's also assumptions

626
00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:51,039
that prayer language or something like this is some sort

627
00:35:51,079 --> 00:35:53,320
of gibberish. No, no, no. In the Book of Acts

628
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:58,119
is very clear that when the apostles speak languages in

629
00:35:58,119 --> 00:36:03,320
a miraculous way, everybody's hearing this same language miraculously that's tongues. Okay,

630
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,239
it's not gibberish, it's not rolling on the ground. Those

631
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:12,000
are ridiculous manifestations that are rebuked and called confusion and chaos.

632
00:36:12,079 --> 00:36:14,000
God is not the author of chaos, Paul says to

633
00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:18,679
the Corinthians. So why would chaotic, nonsense, gibberous worship be

634
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,760
the very way that is the true spiritual manifestation. So

635
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,519
I'm just mainly speaking about like the Charismatics there, but

636
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:30,559
even classical Protestants, you know, traditional Lutherans or Calvinists and Presbyterians,

637
00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:33,400
and you know, they have an order of worship that's

638
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,719
not in the Bible that they have sort of constructed,

639
00:36:36,079 --> 00:36:40,559
and ironically, they've loosely constructed it for itself from older

640
00:36:41,599 --> 00:36:47,440
liturgical traditions of the Roman Roman Church. So you can't

641
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,000
get away from this point of tradition even if you're

642
00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:53,960
a Protestant. Uh. And the irony is that, Paul, if

643
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,159
we had, if the Bible was operating, if the Church

644
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,679
is supposed to operate on a solar scripture of principle,

645
00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:03,559
why were we not given a pattern of worship in

646
00:37:03,599 --> 00:37:04,239
the New Testament.

647
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: I'll argue that the traditions of men make the Word

648
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,280
of God of null effect, and that that's actually what's

649
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,519
happening in churches like the Orthodox Church, where it is

650
00:37:13,639 --> 00:37:15,800
very structured and traditions are followed.

651
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 2: But again, as we saw with Paul's injunction to the Thessalonians

652
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,760
as well as to the Corinthians, how if all the

653
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,519
traditions are so, this is what's called a word concept fallacy. Right,

654
00:37:30,599 --> 00:37:33,639
So Jesus is talking about traditions that the Pharisees came

655
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:40,119
up with, that supplant and a trump God's word, God's revelation.

656
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,679
And Paul is saying, when I give you this pattern

657
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,239
of doctrine that you are to hand down, that is

658
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,400
also the word of God that you heard me preach,

659
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,920
he says, So Heah identifies his oral teaching with the

660
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,760
Word of God as well as what he wrote down.

661
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,400
And again, the Bible itself doesn't tell us what what

662
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,119
books go into the Bible. So we need we have

663
00:38:03,199 --> 00:38:06,559
to have this tradition of the church to even identify,

664
00:38:06,639 --> 00:38:11,519
for example, the tradition that Matthew wrote Matthew's Gospel, because

665
00:38:11,559 --> 00:38:14,280
for example, it doesn't we're not told who wrote it

666
00:38:14,679 --> 00:38:17,920
or that Matthew is the Matthew that we identify with

667
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,199
an apostle. It's the tradition of the Church that says

668
00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:22,440
that that's who that was. And it's a tradition of

669
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,760
the Church that said these other gospels over here that

670
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,679
are called the Gospel of Thomas are fake. They're fake

671
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:32,840
and gray, all right, So we know partly what books

672
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,000
to include and not include by that same tradition that

673
00:38:36,079 --> 00:38:40,000
a Protestant is inadvertently denying by saying or assuming that

674
00:38:40,199 --> 00:38:43,360
all tradition is what Jesus is talking about. Now, Jesus

675
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,719
affirmed and observed many traditions. For example, going to the

676
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,679
synagogue worship service itself was partly a tradition because the

677
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,920
synagogue system was set up posts Moses by Ezra, and

678
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,400
it was a traditional way to set up worship throughout Israel.

679
00:38:58,599 --> 00:39:01,119
But we're not told explain how you're supposed to do

680
00:39:01,159 --> 00:39:04,199
it in the synagogue. That was something Ezra set up,

681
00:39:04,199 --> 00:39:07,119
So that was a tradition. Attending the service the Feast

682
00:39:07,159 --> 00:39:10,199
of Lights that Jesus does, that's the celebration of the Maccabees.

683
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,360
We're never told that you're supposed to go to the

684
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:19,159
Maccabee service. So Jesus is attending excuse me, services that

685
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,079
are themselves fine, legitimate and good traditions. So the point

686
00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:25,800
is that there's good traditions and there's bad traditions. Good

687
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,960
traditions are traditions that the church and those an authority

688
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,840
have accepted, the whole church universally accepts. They're not problems,

689
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,400
they're not contradicting or contravening the Word of God. Bad

690
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,760
traditions are the traditions that do those things.

691
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 1: So I want to ask you because you said that,

692
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,159
you know, you came to the point where you realized

693
00:39:47,199 --> 00:39:51,760
it's either between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. What is it exactly

694
00:39:53,159 --> 00:39:56,480
you know that made you decide that it's not Catholicism

695
00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:59,320
because the Catholics will say, this is, you know, passed

696
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,360
on Jesus past, established his church through Peta, and we're still,

697
00:40:04,639 --> 00:40:06,519
you know, carrying on with that.

698
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,199
Speaker 2: If I was to boil it down to the most.

699
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 1: That's that's my incredibly basic explanation of Catholicism. But by

700
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,719
the way, so forgive me, but that's you understand my point.

701
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and if I were to boil it

702
00:40:21,639 --> 00:40:24,360
down to maybe two or three of the main reasons

703
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,840
why I think orthodoxy is these is the church and

704
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,519
not the Roman Church? Is that? And the more I

705
00:40:31,559 --> 00:40:37,400
studied the first thousand years of Christianity, you find that

706
00:40:38,079 --> 00:40:42,880
you don't see the Roman Catholic idea of the pope

707
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:48,840
and particularly his powers that are outlined at Vatican One,

708
00:40:49,079 --> 00:40:52,480
which is the Roman Catholic Council that dogmatizes the doctrine

709
00:40:52,519 --> 00:40:55,440
of the papacy and it's infallibility and so forth. You

710
00:40:55,519 --> 00:40:59,440
don't see that exercised and explicated in that way in

711
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,280
the first years. And so because many even though Vatican

712
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,400
Want itself actually says that it was always the case,

713
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,320
many Roman Catholics, when dealing with this point or this objection,

714
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,199
will say, well, but it evolved. But you run into

715
00:41:13,199 --> 00:41:16,000
a whole host of other problems with the idea of

716
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,800
doctrinal evolution, because if that's the case, then it seems

717
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,599
like it evolved to be where we are now, where

718
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,519
you know, skittles unions can be blessed, right, so why

719
00:41:26,519 --> 00:41:28,559
can't it involve And now we don't have the death

720
00:41:28,559 --> 00:41:29,119
Pale team.

721
00:41:29,119 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 1: Right now, I can a baptize aliens?

722
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: I mean, well, yeah, if it can evolve, then it

723
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:40,159
can reasonably evolve into the opposite of itself, and if

724
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,599
all doctrinal positions are subject to some notion of evolution,

725
00:41:44,159 --> 00:41:47,079
then the idea that the doctrine evolves itself can also

726
00:41:47,199 --> 00:41:50,159
evolve and have become self refuting. So at a philosophical level,

727
00:41:50,159 --> 00:41:51,800
it's kind of nonsensical.

728
00:41:52,119 --> 00:41:54,039
Speaker 1: That's a really good point, Jay, because I know a

729
00:41:54,119 --> 00:41:57,239
lot of faithful Catholics. We have them in our audience,

730
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,880
and I've interviewed some and they are wonderful people, and

731
00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:03,079
they love Jesus and they love the Church, and they say,

732
00:42:03,119 --> 00:42:05,920
you know, what we're doing is fighting to preserve the

733
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,440
roots of the Church, everything that the doctrine actually is

734
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,960
supposed to be, rather than this bastardized version that this

735
00:42:14,079 --> 00:42:18,599
Satanic pope is sprouting now. But what you just said

736
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,280
is if you go on the basis of that evolution

737
00:42:21,519 --> 00:42:24,440
of theology or doctrine or whatever the case may be,

738
00:42:25,039 --> 00:42:27,360
you actually it allows for this.

739
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Unfortunately, although I understand why they feel that way,

740
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,599
and I felt the exact same way when I was

741
00:42:34,639 --> 00:42:37,960
a traditional Roman Catholic in my twenties, you don't have

742
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,280
that liberty as a Roman Catholic because of the nature

743
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,440
of the system of Roman Catholicism. So if you go

744
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,000
and read Vatican One, which I highly recommend people do.

745
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,320
You go to Peopleandcyclicals dot net, type in Vatican One

746
00:42:49,639 --> 00:42:52,360
and read the full If you print it out, it

747
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,679
might be ten to fifteen pages. What you'll notice is

748
00:42:54,679 --> 00:42:58,960
that you're actually bound to much more than just the

749
00:42:59,039 --> 00:43:02,800
so called fallible teachings. You actually have to follow the

750
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,280
Pope pretty much across the board, and if you disagree

751
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,880
in even what is considered quote nonfallible teachings, you're still

752
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,079
supposed to submit with docility and humility of minds. So

753
00:43:16,119 --> 00:43:19,320
you're not actually allowed in that system, if they're consistent

754
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,679
with it, to publicly oppose any of the moral and

755
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,719
theological dogmatic teachings of Pope Francis. So while they might

756
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,559
like to have the idea of rebelling against the papacy,

757
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,440
the actual text of vaticant One in about four or

758
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,519
five other places in Denzinger, which is their official dogma book,

759
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,280
don't allow you to do that. In fact, you even

760
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:44,079
have to submit to the Pope's decisions on mundane matters,

761
00:43:44,199 --> 00:43:48,400
juridical matters, decisions of the Holy Office, even you're supposed

762
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,239
to submit to them. So this idea that you can

763
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,760
be a traditional, faithful Roman Catholic and reject the last

764
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,559
sixty seventy years of liberalism post Vatican two is just

765
00:43:58,679 --> 00:44:02,760
absolutely absurd and not the case, especially given the fact

766
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,920
that Vatican two actually specifies and multiple times after Vaticano

767
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,039
it's been specified in at least five places that you

768
00:44:10,119 --> 00:44:12,159
have to believe Vatican two, you don't have the right

769
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,880
or the ability as Roman Caloty two reject an ecumenical

770
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,519
council so consistent Roman Catholic papalism itself, I think is

771
00:44:20,559 --> 00:44:25,920
the ultimate defeater for Roman Catholicism. And so again let

772
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,039
me give you a couple other key examples. The first

773
00:44:30,039 --> 00:44:32,599
thousand years of the Church, you have these econmenical councils

774
00:44:32,639 --> 00:44:34,920
that are shared between East and West for the most part,

775
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,280
and those canons. Those councils produce what we call canons.

776
00:44:39,559 --> 00:44:44,079
Canons are ecclesiastical laws that are produced as sort of

777
00:44:44,159 --> 00:44:47,280
rules and guidelines for the church in each of those councils.

778
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,360
And what's interesting is that every one of the first

779
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:55,199
seven produces canons that contradict and don't line up with

780
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,480
the idea of Vatican one's view of the papacy. For example,

781
00:44:58,519 --> 00:45:02,199
you have canons that talk about every bishop being limited

782
00:45:02,199 --> 00:45:06,039
in jurisdiction. Well, if every bishop's limited in jurisdiction, then

783
00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:09,000
there's no universal super bishop who has jurisdiction over everybody.

784
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,360
And make a long story short, if you look at

785
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,559
two important documents that the Vatican has approved, the Vatican

786
00:45:16,599 --> 00:45:19,599
has approved in the last few years. The first one

787
00:45:19,679 --> 00:45:21,920
is called the ch eighty document and the second one

788
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,360
is called the Alexandria Document. Chad document came out, I

789
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,559
don't know, twenty sixteen, somewhere in there. Gad document came.

790
00:45:29,079 --> 00:45:32,199
Alexander document came out last year. And both of those

791
00:45:32,199 --> 00:45:34,559
documents together, they're not that long on high they recommend

792
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,880
interested people go read them. They actually admit, between the

793
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:43,400
two documents, about ninety percent, I would say, of the

794
00:45:43,519 --> 00:45:47,960
Orthodox problems and critiques of the papacy for the last

795
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,360
thousand years. Now, if we're at the point where Rome

796
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,000
is now admitting and I don't believe the motivations are good.

797
00:45:53,079 --> 00:45:55,760
I believe the motivations are actually acumenism and to try

798
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,639
to coax the Orthodox back into union with Rome. But

799
00:45:59,639 --> 00:46:01,719
if we think about it, well, now, wait a minute.

800
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,719
If these documents are admitting that the Roman Church has

801
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,320
basically been wrong about a lot of its critiques ninety

802
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,760
percent of it the last thousand years, and his claims,

803
00:46:10,199 --> 00:46:14,400
then that actually means Vatican One's not true. It actually

804
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,360
means that the Vatican One view of the papal indefectibility

805
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,920
and infallibility is not the case. So to me, those

806
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,639
are a couple of the strongest proofs that the ro

807
00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:29,000
Meancallic Church is not the one true church. And if

808
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,440
you just think about it from kind of practical perspective,

809
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,719
if everything hinges on one guy and it's the guy

810
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,360
over in Rome, and if that guy gets compromised and

811
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:41,800
co opted as a lot of evidence I think demonstrates,

812
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,840
I mean, Francis basically works in lockstep with the world

813
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,360
economic forms of Agenda and Klaus Schwab. Then to me

814
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,920
that that demonstrates that that's not under this infallible guide

815
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,320
and carorism of Jesus and Peter.

816
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:02,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point. People may argue that,

817
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,079
you know, I always think about the I guess because

818
00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:11,760
I did so much, you know, talking to people of

819
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:16,199
different ideologies and sort of tackling arguments apologetics if you will,

820
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:20,199
on a really small scale. But people may argue, oh, well, say,

821
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:25,639
for example, you know, the Orthodox Church hasn't been absent

822
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,599
when they do all these ecumenical meetings and I don't know,

823
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,280
light flames with Hindus and all this kind of stuff.

824
00:47:33,039 --> 00:47:35,840
We've had representation from the Orthodox Church at some of

825
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,639
these climate things and you know, so, how then is

826
00:47:39,679 --> 00:47:43,440
that any different from what the Catholics are doing.

827
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question, and it often comes up.

828
00:47:47,519 --> 00:47:49,280
And I think the important thing to keep in mind

829
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:53,480
here is that it's two different structures and two different ecclesiologies.

830
00:47:53,519 --> 00:47:55,880
That just means the doctrine of the church. So the

831
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:59,199
Romancality Church is a top down system at all. It's

832
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,679
a house of car that either stands or falls based

833
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,320
on what the guy in Rome is doing. The Orthodox

834
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,440
Church is not like that. A lot of people think

835
00:48:06,519 --> 00:48:08,480
of it, like, especially if they're Catholic, they look at

836
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:10,320
the Orthodox Church and say, oh, you're kind of like

837
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,239
the pope and but you have like the patriarch concept

838
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,000
and noople, or you have five patriarchs, and then therefore

839
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,800
you're like a five headed church. You know, those are

840
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:24,039
just canonical privileges. In other words, those bishops have privileges

841
00:48:24,079 --> 00:48:27,519
within synods. It doesn't mean or they have a large jurisdiction.

842
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,960
It doesn't mean that they're popes. Every bishop is just

843
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,039
as much a bishop as the next bishop. So the

844
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,800
Orthodox Church surprisingly is decentralized. A lot of people might

845
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,920
find that kind of odd or very foreign, especially if

846
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,039
you're Roman Catholic, because you're sort of, you know, locked

847
00:48:44,039 --> 00:48:47,840
into that pyramid type of system, and the Orthodox Church

848
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,639
is more I mean, this is a maybe not the

849
00:48:50,679 --> 00:48:53,360
best analogy, but it's a little more like a republican

850
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,320
type of system. Then it would be like a top down,

851
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:01,760
tyrannical type of you know, auto see. So you know,

852
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,960
the bishops are are elected and chosen, and they have

853
00:49:06,119 --> 00:49:10,159
more authority than the priests, but there's no super bishop.

854
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,320
And it's true that at times any one bishop, like

855
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,679
the Bishop of Rome, he might try to get a

856
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,280
lot more power because he might have honor and prestige,

857
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:23,519
and then he might say, okay, well that honor and

858
00:49:23,519 --> 00:49:26,960
prestige actually now translates into like a divine you know,

859
00:49:27,039 --> 00:49:29,719
I'm the guy that everybody should look to. Right. That's

860
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,840
our review of what happened in the See of Rome,

861
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,679
because for the first thousand years we Orthodox would believe

862
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:40,239
that the pope is Orthodox, but then he eventually departs

863
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,320
when we have the schism. So likewise, if we thought

864
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:47,320
about the patriarchal concept and noble for example, much of

865
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,599
the Orthodox Church is concerned and believes that he's now

866
00:49:50,639 --> 00:49:52,559
trying to kind of be like the pope. He wants

867
00:49:52,559 --> 00:49:56,519
to have this prestige and authority even beyond what's normal

868
00:49:58,119 --> 00:50:00,519
like the pope. Now it's not I mean, it's a

869
00:50:00,599 --> 00:50:03,679
problem in the Orthodox Church, but it's not a problem

870
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,320
for our ecclesiology because we believe and have no problem

871
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:12,400
admitting that any bishop can be corrupted and become eventually

872
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,760
a heretic or an apostate. So the problem is not

873
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,119
so much. The argument is not the Orthodox Church has

874
00:50:19,159 --> 00:50:21,719
no problems and the calolgy Church has a bad popes.

875
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,920
That's not the argument. The argument is that the system

876
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,679
of Roman Catholicism hangs everything on one guy and his

877
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,320
dogmatic teaching, such that if he makes a contradiction in

878
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,119
dogma or morals, the system is not true anymore, whereas

879
00:50:35,119 --> 00:50:37,679
in the Orthodox Church you don't have everything hanging in

880
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,960
on one guy. Though a patriarch can become a heretic

881
00:50:41,199 --> 00:50:44,280
and fall away. Many of them have. In fact, many

882
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,440
of the most important heretics in the history of the

883
00:50:46,519 --> 00:50:48,800
Church have been patriarchs of Constantinople.

884
00:50:50,079 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 1: Right, what do you think the key takeaways? I guess

885
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,000
for the Protestant because we have a lot of evangelicals

886
00:51:00,039 --> 00:51:04,039
in our audience, right, so, you know, they got really

887
00:51:04,079 --> 00:51:08,480
angry with me for you know, talking about the fact

888
00:51:08,519 --> 00:51:12,960
that something that you brought up before, that the New

889
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,679
Covenant really is like what is the new Israel? And

890
00:51:17,199 --> 00:51:20,840
you know, the Christians are the inheritors of the Covenant.

891
00:51:21,639 --> 00:51:26,039
It's moved on now to us. And in fact, you know,

892
00:51:26,159 --> 00:51:29,519
saying that we're somehow not the chosen people of God

893
00:51:29,639 --> 00:51:33,599
now it really diminishes what Jesus did and what are

894
00:51:33,599 --> 00:51:36,079
you established through the New Covenant? And so, you know,

895
00:51:37,039 --> 00:51:40,119
I find it insane how many people don't understand this.

896
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:44,840
But what do you think is the key takeaway for

897
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:49,639
the Protestants? Because so many of them genuinely love Jesus

898
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:54,679
Jaye like they love Jesus. They they do. They try

899
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:59,159
their hardest to be good people, good representatives of Christ

900
00:51:59,199 --> 00:52:03,960
on this earth, and yet are often so misled. What

901
00:52:04,039 --> 00:52:07,679
do you think they really need to understand about Protestantism

902
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:09,800
and why it's really not the right way.

903
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,119
Speaker 2: Well, I would say, first of all, even in the

904
00:52:13,159 --> 00:52:19,679
Old Testament, the Jews had ways to deal with problems

905
00:52:19,679 --> 00:52:22,199
and issues in the church, and so you had a

906
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,679
kind of a normative authority in the structure of the

907
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:28,280
levites and the priests who were the interpreters and could

908
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,960
then make judgments on the basis of the law. And yeah,

909
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,920
they made mistakes and they were fallible men for sure,

910
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,800
but there was still a structure, a normative structure in place.

911
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:43,159
And when Jesus sets up the church and he causes apostles,

912
00:52:43,159 --> 00:52:45,679
he says very clearly, he who hears you, here's me.

913
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,480
He breathes on them, it says in the Book of John,

914
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,079
and gives them a power to remit and retain sins.

915
00:52:52,199 --> 00:52:54,639
Whoever sins you remit, they're remitted. Whoever sins you retain,

916
00:52:54,679 --> 00:52:58,360
they're retained. So that's a real power that's given to

917
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:01,880
these apostles, believe by extension to the people that they

918
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,679
set up. And what that means is that if there

919
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,599
is a visible institutional body of bishops and that makes

920
00:53:08,679 --> 00:53:11,880
up the church and history, then they do have authority,

921
00:53:12,159 --> 00:53:15,239
and that means that that authority will continue with the church.

922
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,199
It doesn't go away, it doesn't die. They continue to

923
00:53:18,199 --> 00:53:21,679
have the ability to excommunicate people. How could you excommunicate

924
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:25,079
people and enforce these judgments if there's no living body

925
00:53:25,119 --> 00:53:26,880
that does it. It would be like to make an

926
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:31,000
analogy having the Constitution but no supreme court to actually

927
00:53:31,079 --> 00:53:33,719
rule on the Constitution. It's just every man reading the

928
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,599
Constitution for himself. Well, that would be nonsense and chaos.

929
00:53:36,639 --> 00:53:39,440
So that Jesus didn't even think to set up some

930
00:53:40,079 --> 00:53:42,480
body of people to make decisions and to be a

931
00:53:42,599 --> 00:53:46,719
kind of supreme court, so to speak, for his church.

932
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,119
Speaker 1: I mean, communication doesn't even really happen all that much. Jay,

933
00:53:50,159 --> 00:53:53,559
It's all very floppy, and I guess that would you

934
00:53:53,599 --> 00:53:57,199
know a purpose. It's all very floppy and flippant. You know,

935
00:53:58,119 --> 00:54:03,599
someone's found out to have been hiding pedophile secrets from

936
00:54:03,639 --> 00:54:07,039
his dad and you know, no big deal. God's grace

937
00:54:07,079 --> 00:54:09,000
will cover it. It's like, well, hang on a second,

938
00:54:09,039 --> 00:54:12,960
there is actually a process for people that have done

939
00:54:13,039 --> 00:54:15,519
egregious things. And you know, I mean maybe that's not

940
00:54:15,599 --> 00:54:18,239
the best example, but you know, there's a process for

941
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:20,480
someone who's unrepentant for example.

942
00:54:20,639 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean you could use those moral examples

943
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,719
of individuals, but I was thinking more so, like, for example,

944
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:31,039
what we see in the fourth century when the main

945
00:54:31,119 --> 00:54:34,079
challenge to Christianity at that time is the doctrine of

946
00:54:34,119 --> 00:54:37,920
arianism or semi arianism, which is the idea that Jesus

947
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,000
isn't fully divine. He's not the second person of the Godhead.

948
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,199
He's the first thing God created, so he's just a creature.

949
00:54:44,639 --> 00:54:46,440
And so this is why we have the Council of

950
00:54:46,519 --> 00:54:49,880
nicea meeting, is to solve this crisis throughout the Church

951
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,719
and the Roman Empire, that most people are believing that

952
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,880
Jesus is a creature or some kind of demigod, a

953
00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:00,000
created being. And the decision, of course, following sant Anthonatian,

954
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,599
is that no, Jesus is the eternally generated son of

955
00:55:03,599 --> 00:55:05,880
the Father, and therefore he has the same nature as

956
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:09,119
the Father. And therefore, because God cannot have degrees of divinity,

957
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:13,159
there's no eighty percent God, or because the divine nature

958
00:55:13,199 --> 00:55:16,480
is the divine nature. If you're uncreated, you're uncreated, then

959
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,920
the sun is uncreated. And so as the second person

960
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,360
that God had, he must be believed in as fully

961
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:26,360
divine Homousius to be saved, and so that's why the

962
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:31,519
Nicene Creed comes about. And as a result you get

963
00:55:31,559 --> 00:55:36,119
the excommunicating of Arians and people that believe that Jesus

964
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,719
is a creature, and then later on you get a

965
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:43,239
further specification of other errors about Christ's nature in terms

966
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,960
of Christology. So what I'm saying is that it's not

967
00:55:47,119 --> 00:55:50,880
just everybody fitting for themselves and reading the Bible for themselves.

968
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:53,039
It's not The problem is not reading the Bible. The

969
00:55:53,079 --> 00:55:57,079
problem is that Jesus gave to his church a body

970
00:55:57,119 --> 00:56:01,440
of people that could make decisions and enforce these things.

971
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,079
And if everybody's just DIY and it's just me and

972
00:56:05,159 --> 00:56:08,480
the Bible, and there's no practical way to have what's

973
00:56:08,519 --> 00:56:13,119
called normative authority in philosophy, not just the individual figuring

974
00:56:13,119 --> 00:56:15,960
out what's true and false and right and wrong, but

975
00:56:16,519 --> 00:56:19,760
an actual group of people that can bind people to

976
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:21,639
these decisions.

977
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 1: That's crucial because the argument from a lot of Protestants

978
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,159
will be that we have the Holy Spirit, he teaches

979
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,000
us in all things, and we don't need a body

980
00:56:31,039 --> 00:56:33,199
of people to tell us because we have the ultimate teacher.

981
00:56:33,519 --> 00:56:36,880
The problem that we have is that, in our human fallibility,

982
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:41,920
we interpret things through our own lens, through our own culture,

983
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,679
through our own experiences, and we think it may be

984
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:47,880
the Holy Spirit teaching us, when in fact, it's just

985
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,440
our intellect and our logic sorting through this. Now, that's

986
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,280
not to say that you should take the authority of

987
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,679
a man above your own sense, because that's often led

988
00:56:57,679 --> 00:57:02,519
people into the wrong path. You know, test everything and

989
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:07,840
apply the test of you know, history and scripture and

990
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,079
context and all of that, of course, but this is

991
00:57:11,079 --> 00:57:12,880
how we end up with I don't know, what is it,

992
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:15,079
seventy thousand denominations.

993
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 2: Jay, Yeah, So the question isn't can an individual come

994
00:57:19,519 --> 00:57:22,480
to know the truth? That's that's different. That's why I

995
00:57:22,559 --> 00:57:26,000
keep using this term normative authority. The question is who

996
00:57:26,039 --> 00:57:31,159
has the right to make those decisions? Because everybody, if

997
00:57:31,199 --> 00:57:34,039
you have lived very long and argued with people in

998
00:57:34,079 --> 00:57:36,719
the religious sphere or even within the sphere of what's

999
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,840
called Christianity, everybody believes that they're guided by the Holy Spirit.

1000
00:57:40,079 --> 00:57:43,159
So how do we resolve an issue when say, five

1001
00:57:43,239 --> 00:57:46,280
different factions all believe that the Holy Spirit is leading

1002
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,199
and guiding them. That's why there has to be something

1003
00:57:49,199 --> 00:57:52,280
within history that can make that decision. That's what I

1004
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,880
mean by normative authority. And for the Orthodox Church, the

1005
00:57:54,920 --> 00:58:00,280
normative practice of that is called synodalism synods councils. So

1006
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:03,480
the Orthodox Church is concillier, meaning that it is governed

1007
00:58:03,559 --> 00:58:08,840
by not one dude, but synods and councils, and most

1008
00:58:09,199 --> 00:58:11,760
I mean some Protestant groups have that. But the problem

1009
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,679
is that in Protestantism, because they don't have the notion

1010
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,800
that there is one true church in history, the binding

1011
00:58:19,559 --> 00:58:22,880
people to a decision or the excommunicating of people doesn't

1012
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,119
really do much. It doesn't have much force because you

1013
00:58:25,159 --> 00:58:28,880
could go start your own church, you see. But and

1014
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,119
you might do that even if you're excommunicated from the

1015
00:58:31,159 --> 00:58:34,719
Orthodox Church. But the point is that the theology is

1016
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:38,440
still consistent and the notion of authority is there to

1017
00:58:38,519 --> 00:58:41,840
say that, Well, look, you know, if you're excommunicated from

1018
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:46,519
the Orthodox Church, you can't really go have another Orthodox church.

1019
00:58:46,599 --> 00:58:48,599
It's very it would be very difficult to do that,

1020
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:50,760
you know what I mean, Like you might wear the

1021
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:53,639
costumes and say that you're some sort of something, but

1022
00:58:54,519 --> 00:58:56,400
it's not going to be recognized by the rest of

1023
00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:01,519
the world. So it's probably not going to work. You know,

1024
00:59:01,679 --> 00:59:07,440
no Orthodox person, for example, recognizes Protestant pastors as possessing authority.

1025
00:59:07,679 --> 00:59:11,280
They just simply don't. They're just another layman like any

1026
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:13,760
other laymen trying to do those things. So it's not

1027
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:20,039
a question of is the authority infallible and is it

1028
00:59:20,079 --> 00:59:23,119
then able to give me knowledge of what's true and false?

1029
00:59:23,519 --> 00:59:26,039
That's not what we're saying. The question is how do

1030
00:59:26,079 --> 00:59:29,920
you resolve an issue when five, six, twenty different people

1031
00:59:30,079 --> 00:59:32,239
are claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit. There's

1032
00:59:32,239 --> 00:59:37,079
got to be somebody with authority. Again, the Constitution, it

1033
00:59:37,159 --> 00:59:40,599
wasn't just mailed out or written out in letter letter

1034
00:59:40,679 --> 00:59:44,079
form to every American in their mailbox to then find

1035
00:59:44,159 --> 00:59:47,360
for themselves. Doesn't mean that an individual Americans can't read

1036
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:51,440
the Constitution, but the point is that for practical purposes,

1037
00:59:51,519 --> 00:59:53,679
there's got to be somebody that interprets it.

1038
00:59:55,519 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 1: I have a final topic I'd like to bring up

1039
00:59:58,519 --> 01:00:01,960
with you, Jay, because I think it's vital and it's

1040
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,440
actually the topic that for a lot of Protestants when

1041
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:09,800
I speak with them, you know, after some time, you know,

1042
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:11,519
from my old church or whatever the case may be,

1043
01:00:11,599 --> 01:00:14,039
and they say to me, you know, what the hell

1044
01:00:14,079 --> 01:00:21,039
have you done, you idolata? And you know, I spent

1045
01:00:21,159 --> 01:00:25,199
the time obviously explaining to them that they're misunderstood. But

1046
01:00:26,199 --> 01:00:30,000
the one thing that I that I that really tipped

1047
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,119
me over was the topic of communion. And you brought

1048
01:00:33,119 --> 01:00:40,800
this up before about how serious it is partaking in

1049
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:43,360
the wrong manner. I'd really love you to spend a

1050
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,559
bit of time talking about communion in the Orthodox Church,

1051
01:00:46,599 --> 01:00:50,679
what it actually is, uh, and why it's so so

1052
01:00:51,639 --> 01:00:56,239
serious to your soul uh to partake correctly.

1053
01:01:02,039 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I mean, for us, we believe that it

1054
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:09,679
is the actual, uh deified flesh of Christ. And we

1055
01:01:09,719 --> 01:01:12,199
believe that when in John six, you know, when Jesus

1056
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:15,079
talks about eating his flesh and duringing his blood, that

1057
01:01:14,719 --> 01:01:20,159
it's literal. And it's literal because when people are offended

1058
01:01:20,199 --> 01:01:23,800
by that teaching in John six, Jesus doesn't say, oh wait, wait, wait,

1059
01:01:24,159 --> 01:01:26,239
my bad. Don't get you guys got the wrong idea.

1060
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:27,960
I was just talking of it as a symbol. I

1061
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:32,360
don't know the Old Testament, rituals and writes, the levitical

1062
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:34,599
services and so forth, the temples.

1063
01:01:34,719 --> 01:01:36,559
Speaker 1: Sorry, if I could just say that a lot of

1064
01:01:36,559 --> 01:01:38,519
them left him at that point because they were offended

1065
01:01:38,559 --> 01:01:40,320
because they thought this guy's trying to get us to

1066
01:01:40,559 --> 01:01:44,559
participate in cannibalism. So he like they took it literally.

1067
01:01:45,639 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, and uh yeah, Jesus doesn't say no, no,

1068
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,000
it's just a symbol. He I mean, it doesn't He's

1069
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:54,559
not saying this cannibalism, but he's saying that, no, you

1070
01:01:54,639 --> 01:01:56,360
really do have to partake of Me in the way

1071
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:00,280
that He chose to make that partaking possible, we believe

1072
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,000
is itself a fulfillment. Actually a lot of the things

1073
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:06,079
in the Old Testament. So for example, you'll notice many

1074
01:02:06,119 --> 01:02:11,119
times when God meets with people like Abraham, they have

1075
01:02:11,159 --> 01:02:16,360
a meal. When Abraham meets with Melchisedec, Melchisidic offers bread

1076
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,159
and wine, bread and wine. We believe that's a type

1077
01:02:19,159 --> 01:02:23,400
of Christ offering bread and wine in the Melchizedecian priesthood.

1078
01:02:23,719 --> 01:02:27,480
When you get to Exodus, when Moses goes up on

1079
01:02:27,519 --> 01:02:30,599
the mountain, he eats a meal with God. When the

1080
01:02:30,639 --> 01:02:35,800
Israelites get the levitical services established, many of those services

1081
01:02:36,199 --> 01:02:38,599
deal with ways that you would have a meal with

1082
01:02:38,639 --> 01:02:42,960
the priest and with God. So this idea of covenantal

1083
01:02:43,039 --> 01:02:45,719
meals eating with God is all throughout the Old Testament,

1084
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:49,000
and the most famous would be obviously the Passover, and

1085
01:02:49,119 --> 01:02:53,119
the Passover is the actual partaking of the passover land.

1086
01:02:53,199 --> 01:02:55,559
Jesus is the passover Lamb. But the difference is that

1087
01:02:56,119 --> 01:02:59,039
his blood and partaking of his blood and his flesh

1088
01:02:59,639 --> 01:03:03,559
is the very thing that has to correspond to the

1089
01:03:03,599 --> 01:03:08,239
passover with the Angel that comes and destroys the houses

1090
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:11,719
of the Egyptians, where there's not the blood of the Passover. Well,

1091
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:14,320
in the word the Dox Church, we are saying, no,

1092
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:17,719
you really are exposed to the blood. Protestants, you know,

1093
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:21,079
will say, well, I'm saved by the blood. They're power

1094
01:03:21,119 --> 01:03:24,199
in the blood, power in the blood. And yet the

1095
01:03:24,239 --> 01:03:26,440
blood is never actually what you you never come in

1096
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:30,199
contact with it. So we're actually a lot more literal

1097
01:03:30,239 --> 01:03:32,440
in the sense of, you know, when Paul talks about

1098
01:03:34,039 --> 01:03:37,599
being baptized into Christ, we think baptism really does accomplish

1099
01:03:37,599 --> 01:03:41,320
that regeneration. When Paul talks about, you know, the blood,

1100
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,400
it's literally what you're talking about the Eucharist, So that's

1101
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:47,280
where you come in contact with it. It's not all

1102
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:51,360
just an intellectual notional thing. It's an actual, real thing.

1103
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:53,159
And I think that's the big stumbling block for a

1104
01:03:53,159 --> 01:03:57,360
lot of Protestants is that they they hear this stuff

1105
01:03:57,440 --> 01:03:59,880
and they kind of don't even realize their own gnostic

1106
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:04,239
presuppositions that they have. Well, that's flesh and physical and

1107
01:04:04,239 --> 01:04:06,480
God is against flesh and physical stuff. Really, well, then

1108
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:07,760
why did he create the world, Why did he give

1109
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:11,000
us bodies? Why did Jesus resurrect his same physical body?

1110
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:13,920
Of God's against the physical. So there's just this innate

1111
01:04:14,039 --> 01:04:18,079
sort of gnostic tendency within Protestantism that I think a

1112
01:04:18,119 --> 01:04:21,280
lot of Protestants don't recognize. It underlies a lot of

1113
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:26,199
the iconoclasm, which is like Calvinism would be opposed to imagery. Well,

1114
01:04:26,239 --> 01:04:29,639
I mean, the Book of Hebrews says that the son

1115
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:32,199
is the icon, the Greek word icon of the Father.

1116
01:04:32,679 --> 01:04:35,039
So if God has a son and it's his direct

1117
01:04:35,079 --> 01:04:37,800
image and likeness then and it's his icon, then God's

1118
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:38,760
not against icons.

1119
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:43,079
Speaker 1: Oh, well, that would be you know, the point is

1120
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,280
not creating graven images for yourselves and all of this

1121
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:50,880
sort of stuff, but that's specifically worshiping those things. That's

1122
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:54,559
different to commemoration of the Family of God. It's different

1123
01:04:54,599 --> 01:04:58,519
to commemoration of Jesus, artistic expression of Jesus. You know,

1124
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,920
Bethel as an example, will sit there and draw paintings

1125
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,639
while people wave ribbons and flags around. I mean, is

1126
01:05:06,679 --> 01:05:11,079
that now, you know, creating graven images because you're doing

1127
01:05:11,119 --> 01:05:13,159
that through a worship service. I mean, there's there's a

1128
01:05:13,199 --> 01:05:16,239
lot of it's illogically right.

1129
01:05:16,119 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean the notion of graven images is

1130
01:05:20,039 --> 01:05:25,519
it's not specifically only talking about literal engraving, image of image,

1131
01:05:25,639 --> 01:05:29,559
because if that was the point that's being made there,

1132
01:05:30,039 --> 01:05:33,199
then the temple itself violates this because the temple was

1133
01:05:33,199 --> 01:05:37,280
full of images. It was full of seraphim angels everywhere.

1134
01:05:37,599 --> 01:05:40,039
Those are images. The Arc of the Covenant is a

1135
01:05:40,079 --> 01:05:42,599
golden box with angels on it, which is an image.

1136
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:45,760
And there's many places where in the Old Testament people

1137
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:50,000
prostrate before. They prostrate before. In the Book of Chronicles,

1138
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:53,000
I think a second Chronicles, they prostrate before Solomon and

1139
01:05:53,039 --> 01:05:56,440
the arc when the Chicaina glory cloud comes down to

1140
01:05:56,480 --> 01:06:00,559
the arc. So prostrating before created things is not itself

1141
01:06:00,639 --> 01:06:10,960
the problem. Because Elijah, Elijah prostrates before Elijah, Moses, Sami

1142
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:16,559
Joseph prostrates before Pharaoh, We have examples in the Bible

1143
01:06:16,599 --> 01:06:19,679
where people prostrate before another created being is a sign

1144
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:24,119
of reverence. So it's not the external action of drawing

1145
01:06:24,159 --> 01:06:27,840
a picture or putting your body down on your face

1146
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:32,519
that is the idolatry. Idolatry is, primarily, as Jesus notes

1147
01:06:32,559 --> 01:06:35,519
many times, a problem of the heart and the mind.

1148
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:40,760
So if I, you know, am believing and worshiping a

1149
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:43,440
created thing as if it's God, then that is what

1150
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:48,639
idolatry is. Idolatry is not revering a created thing, and

1151
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:51,199
that happens all throughout the Old Testament throughout the Bible.

1152
01:06:52,039 --> 01:06:55,320
God says honor your father and mother because it's a

1153
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:58,559
way to show deference to God your father. So is

1154
01:06:58,559 --> 01:07:01,159
that idolatry to honor my father? I mean a lot

1155
01:07:01,199 --> 01:07:07,519
of the Protestant ideas are bound up with very simplistic

1156
01:07:08,239 --> 01:07:12,639
and one dimensional understandings of words. For example, call no

1157
01:07:12,719 --> 01:07:17,679
man father. Well, but the Ten Commandments say honor your father. Yes,

1158
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:20,199
So if I can call no man father, then I

1159
01:07:20,239 --> 01:07:20,960
can't call my dad.

1160
01:07:21,159 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 1: Can you actually just address that what it means by

1161
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,440
call no man father? Please, Jay, because this is actually

1162
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:29,320
you know, when when I interviewed priest recently. The first

1163
01:07:29,639 --> 01:07:32,079
one of the one of the comments, Maria, we're told

1164
01:07:32,199 --> 01:07:34,400
call no man father. I cannot watch these.

1165
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:41,559
Speaker 2: Well. Paul himself refers to himself as Timothy's spiritual father. Yes,

1166
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:46,679
so clearly it's not contradictory in this sense to literally

1167
01:07:46,719 --> 01:07:50,199
never call a human being father, and nobody, no Protestant

1168
01:07:50,239 --> 01:07:54,519
unless they're crazy, actually keeps that. In that sense, Jesus

1169
01:07:54,639 --> 01:07:58,559
is talking about the ussurpation of God's place in a

1170
01:07:58,599 --> 01:08:03,519
person's life and a person replacing that role and being

1171
01:08:03,559 --> 01:08:07,280
themselves because there was this tendency, and it exists even

1172
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:12,599
in Telmuitic Rabbinic Judaism, where the rabbi can actually argue

1173
01:08:12,639 --> 01:08:16,159
with and displace God in that theology. So Jesus, I think,

1174
01:08:16,199 --> 01:08:20,760
is attacking this idea that the person that you're calling

1175
01:08:21,319 --> 01:08:27,439
father might actually be extending beyond his authoritative place to

1176
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:30,239
be like God, you know, like a Guru or a

1177
01:08:30,319 --> 01:08:33,159
you know, something like that. That would be replacing the

1178
01:08:33,239 --> 01:08:35,880
natural position that God should have in that hierarchy. But

1179
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:39,119
Jesus is not saying literally, never call another person father.

1180
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:41,199
Jesus talks about people's fathers.

1181
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 1: I'm really glad we addressed that you know, for me,

1182
01:08:46,199 --> 01:08:52,199
j I've certainly I said this a while ago, particularly

1183
01:08:52,199 --> 01:08:54,640
when I was even looking at the at the subject

1184
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:58,119
of you know, who is rallies now and all of

1185
01:08:58,159 --> 01:09:00,319
that sort of stuff, and it was very confronting for me,

1186
01:09:00,359 --> 01:09:02,720
and I was very afraid to face some of these

1187
01:09:03,159 --> 01:09:05,920
former beliefs that I had worried I was going to

1188
01:09:06,039 --> 01:09:09,479
upset God. You know these I've been quite quite open

1189
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:13,880
about that with the viewers. And what I found was

1190
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:19,239
that if you just open your heart that and be

1191
01:09:19,359 --> 01:09:21,359
willing to learn, that God will teach you. This is

1192
01:09:21,399 --> 01:09:25,720
something everyone believes. It's really just about whether we're open

1193
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:29,239
to learning. And I think, you know, someone that's very

1194
01:09:29,239 --> 01:09:30,840
close to me always says, if you really want to

1195
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:32,399
know the truth, it will always lead you back to

1196
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:37,560
the Orthodox Church, and so I think that that's you know,

1197
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,319
I've found that to be true. Certainly. Jay, you do

1198
01:09:41,399 --> 01:09:43,840
a lot of debates, you do a lot of talks

1199
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:47,479
on philosophy, you do a lot of breakdowns of Hollywood.

1200
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:50,239
I know that you've recently watched June two and you

1201
01:09:50,279 --> 01:09:52,520
were very impressed. I didn't even like the first one.

1202
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:54,039
What was so great about the second?

1203
01:09:57,399 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I mentioned it. I would be interested

1204
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:03,439
to know why you didn't like it, because you know, people,

1205
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:07,000
I'm a big fan of the novels. I've read the

1206
01:10:07,039 --> 01:10:10,479
first two. Yeah, and I was really impressed with Doune

1207
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:12,920
one just because of the depth of philosophical depth that

1208
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:16,159
it has. It's not it's not a Christian work. I'm

1209
01:10:16,159 --> 01:10:19,479
not saying it's great because it's Christianity or anything like that.

1210
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:23,720
I just thought that I really appreciated the execution that

1211
01:10:24,399 --> 01:10:29,239
Dennis Villainew had. I thought that it, for the most part,

1212
01:10:29,359 --> 01:10:33,119
captured what was in the first book. The new movie

1213
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:37,159
is I think a technical achievement. The aesthetics, the art, direction,

1214
01:10:37,439 --> 01:10:40,199
the sound, that's all phenomenal. It's not I think for

1215
01:10:40,359 --> 01:10:43,239
moviegoers if you're a movie buff, you know, we haven't

1216
01:10:43,239 --> 01:10:46,560
really had that type of a theater experience since like

1217
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:48,520
Lord of the Rings or something like that. Yeah.

1218
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:50,359
Speaker 1: I saw you say that, and I thought I had

1219
01:10:50,359 --> 01:10:52,399
no intention of watching it, And then I saw that

1220
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:54,640
you were like for fIF you said you it was

1221
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:57,960
like the experience you haven't had for fifteen years, and

1222
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:00,399
I thought, well, now I have to watch it. I

1223
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:01,439
wanted to know what made it.

1224
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:03,159
Speaker 2: I mean, it might not be up your alley. I

1225
01:11:03,159 --> 01:11:05,439
mean it's it's it's a very weird world. It's a

1226
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:09,600
very bizarre uh. You know, Frank Herbert was a GOP

1227
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:17,600
speech writer. He was a curiously not liberal so to speak, uh,

1228
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:20,560
sci fi person, and so, you know, in the in

1229
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:22,560
the world of science fiction, that's kind of unheard of.

1230
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:25,600
It's very rare there. They're usually soy men and they're

1231
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:28,920
always promoting kind of crazy stuff. So there are some

1232
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:33,239
conservative traditional elements within the Do novels that I think

1233
01:11:33,279 --> 01:11:36,479
make it interesting in regard to how most sci fi

1234
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:39,600
is not that way. It also is, you know, a

1235
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:44,079
couple other ways it's unique is that it's not uh,

1236
01:11:44,159 --> 01:11:49,239
there's not really aliens in that world. There are no uh,

1237
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:54,319
it's not pro AI. So it's a very unique sci

1238
01:11:54,319 --> 01:11:58,399
fi where it's anti AI. And so I like those elements.

1239
01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:01,520
That does not mean that that I think that the

1240
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:04,640
message of Dune overall is like, oh it's Christian. It's

1241
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:08,520
not Christian, it's more perennialism. But it's at least not

1242
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:15,159
like totally soy you know, it's not pro skal Oh,

1243
01:12:15,199 --> 01:12:18,520
I'm serious. I mean most science fiction is just propaganda

1244
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:22,560
for for that stuff, you know, living in the matrix

1245
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:24,640
or getting a sexpot. I mean, and this is not

1246
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:26,920
that way at all. It also really it has a

1247
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:31,359
really weird religious expression. I mean, in this future ten

1248
01:12:31,399 --> 01:12:34,720
thousand years from now scenario, there's a there's a blended

1249
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:39,159
world religion that's like Catholicism mixed with Islam and and

1250
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:43,439
all of that's very bizarre. But it's just a breath

1251
01:12:43,439 --> 01:12:45,960
of fresh air for me. And I just did I

1252
01:12:46,039 --> 01:12:48,079
just read the second one done Messiah and did a

1253
01:12:48,079 --> 01:12:50,800
big breakdown of that a couple of months ago, so

1254
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:53,479
so it's always all still fresh in my mind. And uh,

1255
01:12:54,159 --> 01:12:59,119
you know, from a predictive programming perspective, Dune is amazing

1256
01:12:59,239 --> 01:13:04,159
because you have geoengineering, you have terror forming, you have

1257
01:13:05,079 --> 01:13:11,479
MK ultra, you have espionage, sexpionage, you have intrigue, all

1258
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:15,840
of that in sci fi, which I mean, I'm not

1259
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:17,760
a huge sci fi nerd. I don't read a whole

1260
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:20,600
lot of sci fi, but I mean, how often do

1261
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:24,520
we get that kind of real conspiracy stuff in fi?

1262
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:25,680
Not very much.

1263
01:13:26,319 --> 01:13:29,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well I asked you because I wanted to highlight

1264
01:13:29,159 --> 01:13:32,239
for you know, most people that watch our content know you.

1265
01:13:33,239 --> 01:13:37,199
They really enjoy your our interviews together but for anyone

1266
01:13:37,239 --> 01:13:39,279
that isn't for me. Now, this is the other stuff

1267
01:13:39,279 --> 01:13:42,840
that Jay does, so it's not just religious discussions. He

1268
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:45,960
does a lot of I mean a huge focus. On

1269
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:48,840
his website you can go to Jay's analysis dot com

1270
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:52,279
lots of movie analysis.

1271
01:13:53,119 --> 01:13:55,239
Speaker 2: We're also doing a live event in LA I would

1272
01:13:55,239 --> 01:13:57,800
add two if people want to come out and see

1273
01:13:57,880 --> 01:13:59,840
us live with What we do in our live events

1274
01:13:59,880 --> 01:14:05,600
is pretty diverse as well. We do I do comedy

1275
01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:07,199
to a lot of impressions, so I end up doing

1276
01:14:07,239 --> 01:14:10,199
like ten twenty minutes of impressions. Then we have a

1277
01:14:10,319 --> 01:14:12,560
lecture from my wife Jamie. She does a lot of

1278
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:15,800
occult esotery, Hollywood stuff. Then I do a lecture that's

1279
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:20,119
a lot of deep geopolitics, philosophy, spirituality like we've talked about.

1280
01:14:20,159 --> 01:14:22,680
And then at this LA event March fifteenth, we'll have

1281
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:27,439
Jamie Kennedy, the comedian from Scream, and he's going to

1282
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:29,920
be headlining. We did this. We did an event in

1283
01:14:30,039 --> 01:14:31,720
LA about eight months ago and it was so much

1284
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:33,720
fun we thought we'd do it again. So this is

1285
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:36,359
not the same event. It's all new material, all new topics.

1286
01:14:37,119 --> 01:14:40,039
I'm gonna be signing books, the Red book at this event,

1287
01:14:40,079 --> 01:14:43,159
which is six hundred pages of all my geopolitics and

1288
01:14:43,159 --> 01:14:46,000
philosophy and theology essays, so people can come out and

1289
01:14:46,039 --> 01:14:48,920
watch us. The links the tickets are all on my website,

1290
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:51,000
on my Twitter penned at the top in the event

1291
01:14:51,039 --> 01:14:51,600
bright link.

1292
01:14:52,199 --> 01:14:56,760
Speaker 1: We can find Jay on x jay under school d

1293
01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:01,960
seven and there is the live event pinned post that

1294
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:04,760
he's talking about. I encourage everyone to follow him. He

1295
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:08,239
posts hilarious stuff. I just I shared he sent me.

1296
01:15:08,479 --> 01:15:11,840
He sent me that. AI like the thing that you

1297
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:15,840
did with the microwave as well, Oh sorry, I've just

1298
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:20,399
opened one of your streams, and so really entertaining but

1299
01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:23,880
also incredibly informative. I also encourage everyone to subscribe to

1300
01:15:24,039 --> 01:15:27,680
Jay's YouTube. I'm not signed in, so that's why it

1301
01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:32,640
says subscribe there, but definitely subscribe to Jay's YouTube. Anything

1302
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:33,680
else you want to mention.

1303
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:37,880
Speaker 2: Jay, No, I appreciate that great conversation. Like I said,

1304
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:40,760
people want the books. You can go to my website

1305
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:43,800
and the shop and you can get the Red Book

1306
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:48,000
as the newest one. It's basically all of my essays

1307
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:52,479
the last ten years, six hundred and sixty pages on theology, philosophy, geopolitics.

1308
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:54,640
I have a smaller book on philosophy you can get.

1309
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:56,479
Then I have my two Hollywood books and those are

1310
01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:59,000
all signed copies, so if you order it from the website,

1311
01:15:59,039 --> 01:16:01,600
you get signed copies. You can follow me on Rockfinn.

1312
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:05,479
My sponsors Chalk dot com the best in supplementation. Use

1313
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:08,079
promo code J fifty J WIFEI Zeria get fifty percent

1314
01:16:08,119 --> 01:16:12,439
off all Chalk products choq dot com. And that's all

1315
01:16:12,479 --> 01:16:12,960
I can think of.

1316
01:16:13,399 --> 01:16:16,760
Speaker 1: Amazing, Thank you so much, Jay, really really love this conversation.

1317
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:19,159
I'm sure we'll do more. Another book review is on

1318
01:16:19,199 --> 01:16:19,800
the horizon.

1319
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:21,640
Speaker 2: I think, oh yeah, we should definitely do that. By

1320
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:24,520
the way, you're also a co Fourth Hour host, and

1321
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:26,319
we both I think, have been pretty much killing it

1322
01:16:26,359 --> 01:16:27,119
in the Fourth Hours.

1323
01:16:27,399 --> 01:16:30,720
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, absolutely, Jay's been there a lot longer than me,

1324
01:16:31,279 --> 01:16:36,119
but bringing amazing, amazing quality information to the Alex Jones

1325
01:16:36,159 --> 01:16:38,479
Show each Friday? Is it Jay that your host?

1326
01:16:39,319 --> 01:16:43,079
Speaker 2: Yes, you do get confused because.

1327
01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:47,279
Speaker 1: For me it's Saturday. No, I'm on Tuesdays, which are

1328
01:16:47,279 --> 01:16:48,840
Wednesdays in Australia.

1329
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:53,439
Speaker 2: Gotcha, Yeah, I'm every Friday, and yeah, I usually I

1330
01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:55,279
try to check out yours as well, so you've been

1331
01:16:55,319 --> 01:16:55,760
killing it.

1332
01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:58,800
Speaker 1: Thanks Jay, really appreciate you. Thank you for all your work.

1333
01:16:58,880 --> 01:16:59,800
God bless and we'll talk

1334
01:16:59,800 --> 01:17:02,199
Speaker 2: To you sin Likewise, thanking Maria