WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.120 Separation is kind of just an illusion. We create separation 2 00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:06.160 between things, but reality is one thing that you are 3 00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:07.120 your experience. 4 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:09.000 Hey, this is Remco. 5 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:10.279 Thanks for clicking on a video. 6 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:12.720 This is my brand new podcast called Face the Ace, 7 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:15.000 in which I talked to the most interesting people in 8 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:18.280 poker and go a little deeper into the topics you 9 00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:22.839 most care about. Enjoy. I have a fellow recent dad 10 00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:26.399 with me millions and earnings, written books. He's done it all, 11 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:28.719 but we still have tons of talk about even though 12 00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:31.359 I've known this guy for such a long time. Andrew Lichtenberger, 13 00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:35.079 Welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you. 14 00:00:35.159 --> 00:00:37.880 Just to start off with what has today been like 15 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:40.079 in dad life? I won the latest chapter. 16 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:44.880 Well, I just got back to Vegas last night, my wife, myself, 17 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:48.520 my brother, and my daughter at one am last night, 18 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:51.799 so we were in New York. So today was unpacking, 19 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:54.880 getting things sort of back in order. Yeah, I mean 20 00:00:54.920 --> 00:00:56.719 it's always a new adventure. We were setting up some 21 00:00:56.719 --> 00:00:58.600 pack and plays for the baby so we can have 22 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:00.200 somewhere to put her because she's getting a lot more 23 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:02.560 mobile now. I don't know how old is your. 24 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:05.159 My son is turning one at the end of May. 25 00:01:05.319 --> 00:01:08.200 Okay, Yeah, so you're a few months ahead of us. 26 00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:10.879 You know what that's like. Yeah, yeah, ye're pretty quick. 27 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:12.879 They are pretty quick. They're very resourceful. 28 00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:17.599 It's just awesome to have noticed the shift in the 29 00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:21.879 way I approach life just by having another human involved. 30 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:24.280 Oh yeah, But I feel as though, out of all 31 00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:27.159 the people that I'll interview on the show, you are 32 00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:31.480 probably mentally prepared for every type of scenario because you've 33 00:01:31.519 --> 00:01:33.840 been so involved with mindfulness, You've been so involved with 34 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:36.879 sort of learning more about yourself and the universe, to 35 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:40.040 just put it that way, Maybe there's many universes we 36 00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:43.959 don't even know. But would you say that any of 37 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:46.519 the things that you've gone through on a personal level 38 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.879 have sort of set you up for success to become 39 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:54.439 a father or is it perhaps something so different that 40 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:57.120 even you could not have anticipated how that would feel 41 00:01:57.239 --> 00:01:59.040 and sort of develop. 42 00:01:59.480 --> 00:02:03.400 That's a really question. I do think that my I 43 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:06.799 would say, willingness to be open and just sort of 44 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:10.000 accept the uncertainty of life and the adventure that's naturally 45 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:16.439 present in it does prepare me for the Yeah, just 46 00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:21.479 unusual things that happen and will probably increasingly occur as 47 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:26.000 a parent. But I will say that I probably over 48 00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:28.719 exaggerated in my head how different it was going to 49 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:31.560 be because I found it striking in the first Like, 50 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:34.719 let's just say month, how many things were the same, 51 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:37.319 Like I was totally prepared for my entire life to 52 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:40.360 come crashing down and just something totally new to happen. 53 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:43.120 It was like, oh, well, I'm still me, my wife's 54 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:44.719 still her, we still live in the same house, you 55 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:46.919 know what I mean. So I guess a bit of both. 56 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:50.319 But it's been really fun and yeah, I just melt 57 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:53.360 every time she smiles and laughs, and it's it's just incredible. 58 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:54.800 I'm just loving it. 59 00:02:55.599 --> 00:02:57.680 We could do like POGs podcast, so we can go 60 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:00.840 deep on that. That's probably worth another a couple of 61 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:03.080 chapters and seasons as the years go on, so we'll 62 00:03:03.159 --> 00:03:05.639 keep every when you're ready, Yeah, exactly, we can totally 63 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:09.439 do that. But there there are sort of a larger 64 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:15.639 topic at hand that ties into the uniqueness of your 65 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:18.639 position in poker from the way I see it, because 66 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:22.560 obviously you're very much involved on the on the solver side, 67 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:26.039 the studying side, and trying to become the best possible player, 68 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:31.360 and then you have this highly contrasting sort of look 69 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:33.639 on life and and and approach to life, and you know, 70 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:35.759 the yoga of poker and the camp set. We can 71 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:38.240 talk about all that stuff, but to me, it almost 72 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:43.280 feels like so polarizing in how those things can be 73 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:47.680 so different and that spectrum could be so wide. Why 74 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:51.560 do you think it is that you fit into both 75 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:55.599 those sort of boxes, if you will, because I don't 76 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:57.800 think you could find many people that that that fit 77 00:03:57.879 --> 00:03:58.319 those both. 78 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:04.319 Yeah, well, I I appreciate you acknowledging that. I do 79 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:09.520 recognize that it can appear to be very contrasted, and 80 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:11.199 in a sense it is. But the way I see 81 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:12.960 it is that they're two sides of the same coin, 82 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:18.560 and I often liken it to the left and right 83 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:22.160 side of the brain, like one is more logical, rigid, structured, 84 00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:26.040 and the other is more creative, imaginative, intuitive, And I 85 00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:31.160 think that the solvers present an opportunity to create frameworks 86 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:37.680 and understand, within a very sort of rigid framework, what 87 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:43.639 strategies will look like and how people can or should 88 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:47.319 play given those parameters. But the reality is that in poker, 89 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:51.240 you don't always get the luxury of having those handed 90 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:53.879 to you on a silver platter. In some cases you will, 91 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:57.279 and that's you know, nice, I suppose, or easy as 92 00:04:57.319 --> 00:05:00.639 it were. But the reason I find of this more 93 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:04.959 fluid way, woo way or chemist type of approach to 94 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:09.160 be valuable is that when you're navigating uncertainty in poker, 95 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:11.319 like you really do, kind of have to embrace it 96 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:14.720 and just sort of figure it out on the fly, 97 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:17.560 and the structure helps, but it's not always going to 98 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:19.399 be the answer, and that's where I think intuition comes 99 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:20.720 into play. 100 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:23.480 You did a podcast recently with Chance Cornith where you 101 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:28.720 specifically mentioned Sean Winter and how he does weird stuff 102 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:30.839 if you want to just put it very plainly, Yeah, 103 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:34.639 but you also said more often than not, he is right, 104 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:37.120 even though it should be random. Why do you use 105 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:39.680 him as an example and not yourself? Do you feel 106 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:43.319 like your intuition needs needs a lot more work. Do 107 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.600 you see him as a very intuitive person, as something 108 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:48.560 that he naturally possesses. 109 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:49.360 How do you look at that? 110 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:50.360 Well? 111 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:52.759 I do think he is very intuitive. I think he's 112 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:55.759 probably leaned into it to a greater extent than myself 113 00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:58.560 or other players over time. I think that's an interesting 114 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:02.279 kind of topic generally, is how much are players willing 115 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:04.759 to lean into it. Like Prime Ivy is sort of 116 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:06.720 the example that comes to mind as someone who was 117 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:10.079 just very deep in there. And I also think that 118 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:13.680 because I've had this kind of funny thought like, let's 119 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:19.800 just say, irrespective of what people believe, let's just say, hypothetically, 120 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:22.600 there is some Yogi and the Hamalias meditating right now, 121 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:24.680 and if we just brought him in this state of 122 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:29.000 zen to the Pokerro studio, would his intuition actually like 123 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.480 accomplish anything or would the lack of understanding of the 124 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:35.879 structure of the game hold him back? And I'm inclined 125 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:38.920 to believe that the latter is more likely. And that's 126 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:41.120 where I think that, you know, going back to like 127 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:43.720 a Prime Ivy, he probably didn't have as much of 128 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:45.959 a theoretical basis. He would have obviously had a deep 129 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:49.240 understanding of the game, but as you know, the industry 130 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:52.680 has changed and more ideas become commonplace and more access 131 00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:58.279 to information is present. I do feel that intuition, it's 132 00:06:58.279 --> 00:07:00.519 not that you have to temper it by but I 133 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:05.879 think it's boosted by a theoretical understanding that one has 134 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:08.319 and the topic of like how deep can you go 135 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:11.680 with it? So I don't know. It's something I've thought 136 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:14.160 a lot about. I think there's always room for improvement 137 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:17.920 with anything strategically or intuitively, and I just always am 138 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:19.240 trying to improve in that right lect. 139 00:07:19.480 --> 00:07:24.279 But I find that so fascinating because, as some people know, 140 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:26.920 I've lost a lot of weight over time. And this 141 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:29.360 is relevant because a lot of times when I talk 142 00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:33.439 to people about health and lifestyle changes, the biggest thing 143 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:36.079 that I like to focus on is that you shouldn't 144 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:39.000 be majoring in the miners as far as don't focus 145 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:42.439 on the details, do the big things right. To me, 146 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:48.199 it almost feels like the miners are that intuition, that 147 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:50.879 last little push, the last little extra. If you're not 148 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:54.079 doing the majors right, which is the studying and the 149 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:56.839 theory based and the fundamentals, you never even have to 150 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:00.319 worry about the intuition because that is sort of like 151 00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:03.240 the cherry on top that you develop over time because 152 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:06.279 of repetition and and and and you know, talent and 153 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:10.079 all those kinds of things. Do you think that people 154 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:15.079 can sort of start to tap into that sort of 155 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:20.879 final set of additional skills or perhaps intuition once they 156 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:22.879 have that solid foundation, as you mentioned, you know, the 157 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:24.800 yogi probably wouldn't do that well at the book table. 158 00:08:25.319 --> 00:08:29.120 Yeah, that's an interesting it's an interesting way to look 159 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:33.799 at it. I'm inclined to think that intuition has more 160 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:37.039 I don't know if I want to say more value 161 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:41.919 or more relevant than it being like a final push. 162 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:47.399 I feel that it's always valuable, especially as it pertains 163 00:08:47.399 --> 00:08:51.559 to just executing at the table, irrespective of what level 164 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:55.759 you're playing at. But yeah, I'm not I'm not sure. 165 00:08:55.840 --> 00:08:58.720 I mean, I can't really quantify it, and it's also 166 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:01.720 maybe a bit challenging to speak generally on it because 167 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:04.600 I am going to be biased by my own experience 168 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:07.360 with it, and it is something that's very authentic to me. 169 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:10.679 Feel very inclined towards it being something that is not 170 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:13.840 just the final push, that it's kind of always finding 171 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:17.759 a way. For example, like with solver strategies, so many 172 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:22.519 decisions are mixed, and furthermore, the models are fairly fragile 173 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:24.519 in a lot of cases, and if you make a 174 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:28.679 few assumptions, then they'll shift dramatically. And you make more 175 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:32.120 larger assumptions and they'll shift even more dramatically. And I 176 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:35.679 think that that's where I see intuition has a lot 177 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:41.159 of value in being able to make those adjustments without 178 00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:45.679 having a sort of premeditated approach to a spot. 179 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:50.399 When you think back to when poker was easy, so 180 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:54.159 to say, right when talent and hard work and having 181 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:56.480 a few friends you can discuss hands with was enough 182 00:09:56.519 --> 00:09:59.919 to really do very well. Do you think that you're 183 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:04.799 general mindset then could have could have been like applied 184 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:07.240 to be successful in the current state of the game, 185 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:10.120 or do you think that the entire progression you went 186 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:13.200 through was necessary to still be successful now? 187 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:17.000 Hmmm? I think yeah, I mean I think I could. 188 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:19.840 I could still be successful if I didn't change that much, 189 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:25.039 but it would be rocky road, that's for sure. But 190 00:10:25.159 --> 00:10:28.279 I did not always But there was a certain point. 191 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:32.000 I can't tell you exactly when it was, but I 192 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:36.200 have valued for a long time, like the understanding of 193 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:40.960 structure and the willingness to deviate from it when appropriate. 194 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:45.159 But yeah, I mean, in the early days, having like 195 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:49.080 any structure, even just being able to sort of conceptualize 196 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:52.120 what the fundamentals of poker might look like and how 197 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:57.200 to build strategies around these, you know, cohesive or coherent ideas. 198 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:00.480 That was such a huge leg up back then, and 199 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:03.399 that was something that was largely innate for me. I 200 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:05.360 guess I could say I got lucky with it, but 201 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:10.320 it's just sort of probably influence from my parents in 202 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:12.759 some sense, and just sort of the game or brain 203 00:11:12.840 --> 00:11:14.120 that I have. 204 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:18.440 Right, But is it like talent and intuition and perhaps 205 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:21.360 maybe some some pattern recognition to where you know, just 206 00:11:21.399 --> 00:11:24.720 through repetitions, even though you're not you know, studied in 207 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:28.159 like a clinical sense, you're improving almost like on a 208 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:30.399 daily basis, even though you might not be conscious of 209 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:31.080 that improvement. 210 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.879 Yeah. I mean, I think anytime you're immersed in something, 211 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:36.919 you're probably going to continue to improve as long as 212 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:39.759 you're open, right and reflective of what's happening. 213 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:44.360 Right. So, then in that sort of early era, were 214 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:47.399 there key moments you remember or key people that you 215 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:51.799 met that in hindsight turned out to be sort of 216 00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:55.799 pivotal towards your continued growth in the game, like instances 217 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.159 or people that contributed, And if you have examples of that. 218 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.080 Yeah, I mean the one example that comes to mind 219 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:03.639 is I was playing an online session, which was you know, 220 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:05.840 part for the course. I was playing probably almost every day, 221 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:08.840 and I just remember I had the spot I had 222 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:10.759 Ace Queen on an ACE high board. Maybe it was 223 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:12.919 a three bet pot, maybe it was a single race pot. 224 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:16.440 I can't really remember, but it was some like ACE 225 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:18.799 nine deuce rainbow, just some dry spot. I just felt 226 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:22.440 like bad about it, and I was like, huh, this 227 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:26.559 is weird. I, you know, previous to this moment, because 228 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.080 this was somewhat of a watershed experience for me, I 229 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:33.960 just didn't really either have the awareness of what these 230 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:38.159 intuitive signals would be or care to delve into them. 231 00:12:38.759 --> 00:12:41.759 But I checked it back and then I ended up 232 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:43.720 losing a smaller pot than I would have and my 233 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:47.519 opponent had Ace king. I was like, Okay, that's pretty interesting, 234 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:49.440 and then I just sort of kept an eye out 235 00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:52.600 for when that similar signal would come. And I guess 236 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:57.120 over the years, I've valued what those signals look and 237 00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:59.799 feel like, and I have oscillated. There's been times where 238 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:02.240 I feel like I basically I have gas lit myself 239 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:04.879 into thinking that like that's not real, and then I 240 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:07.120 have to like touch the hot stove and realize that 241 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:10.519 that doesn't feel good. So it's been a journey. But yeah, 242 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:14.320 I mean it's it's fascinating because I do think that 243 00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:16.759 I was more naturally predisposed to just like a purely 244 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:19.720 logical approach. As far as people I met over the 245 00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:25.840 years who would have maybe assisted in that, gosh, I 246 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:28.919 mean really so many people. I can't pick any out 247 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:32.240 in particular, but from the generation I came up in 248 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:36.240 before solvers, there was no I mean, there was some 249 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:41.720 convergence around ideas, but there was a lot. Yeah, there's 250 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:45.519 a lot more that was just subjects to interpretation because yeah, 251 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:47.320 everyone was just sort of figuring it out of the fly. Yeah, 252 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:49.360 and I appreciate. I just added that I really did 253 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:52.039 appreciate when they came out, although I had some early 254 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:55.279 resistance because I was like, well, it's kind of nice 255 00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:57.120 to be able to quantify these things that we've sort 256 00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:00.759 of not known for a while and ruminated on. Soh yeah, 257 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:02.399 I just thought it was cool when it happened. 258 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:08.200 It's fun to like speculate on this because in a way, 259 00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:11.679 becoming a really good poker player has never been easier 260 00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:15.399 because the access to tools is there's so many. If 261 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:17.159 you wanted, you could study for a whole year before 262 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:19.559 even playing a single handed poker and then showing up 263 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:24.039 being well prepared. But back when you came up, it 264 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:27.399 was almost like, you know, a bunch of young kids 265 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:31.000 would win like satellites to PCA and epts, and they 266 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.399 would all meet and they would all find common ground. 267 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:35.799 They're all like, you know, under the age of twenty 268 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:40.159 and become instant best friends. And that sort of group 269 00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:45.000 pushed themselves to a very high level, very quickly in 270 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:48.759 relation to the field totally. How do you look at 271 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:53.320 those two different ways to reach the top, Because you know, 272 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:57.679 the case can be made that the access now is 273 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.159 what's crucial to reach the top, but also it's harder 274 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:03.000 than ever because the competition is so strong. 275 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:06.799 Yes, it's a good point. The access to information is 276 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:09.879 just going to be helpful if someone's like newer to poker, 277 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:12.960 And I do think it's always been a possibility to 278 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:15.519 start from scratch and make it to the highest stakes. 279 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:19.600 And I would even add that because there is a 280 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:23.519 more ubiquitous understanding of poker theory and you can just 281 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:26.600 figure things out if you want to. To me, that, 282 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:31.519 by contrast, highlights the importance of intuition and execution and 283 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:34.159 all the soft skills that go along with understanding the 284 00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:37.399 structure of the game, because not that everybody will have 285 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:40.360 the same understanding. That's clearly not the case. There's so 286 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:42.799 much nuance to it, and the game tree is huge, 287 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:47.600 But if people are generally converging around similar ish ideas, 288 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:49.919 it's like, well, what will give you an adage? What 289 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:52.480 is like the next frontier so to speak? And to 290 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:54.799 me it is all those soft skills. 291 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.639 From the guys you've seen come up in like, let's say, 292 00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:02.679 less five years that you know are playing in the 293 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:05.240 Pocco studio or you know you see him at like 294 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:09.799 big final tables across the country or even internationally. Can 295 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:13.000 you pinpoint to something having played against those players that 296 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:17.159 sort of has given them the opportunity to reach the top? 297 00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:20.279 Do you see something in their playing style, or in 298 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:23.679 their you know, social skills, or in perhaps something you 299 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:25.720 know from talking to them that that sort of sets 300 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:29.039 them apart from perhaps others from their generation who have 301 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:29.639 not made it. 302 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.159 Yeah, I mean the first name that comes to mind 303 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:36.720 is Jesse Lanis. I think he started kind of competing 304 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:40.000 in like mid to higher stakes tournaments around COVID. You 305 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:43.840 know when I first met him. Not trying to burche 306 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:46.679 hate on the gorilla, I love him, but I was skeptical. 307 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:49.600 I mean, he's just playing like pretty different than most people. 308 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:51.320 And that was probably around the time that I was 309 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:55.480 stuck in a more rigid kind of mindset. But I mean, 310 00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:57.679 he has great soft skills, There's just no two ways 311 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:02.000 about it, and he it is just a great card player. 312 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:03.919 At the end of the day. That's actually really what 313 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:07.640 matters because we're playing cards. So I do think that 314 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:09.920 just as much as it was true back in the 315 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:13.319 day when we were winning PCA packages and whatnot, it 316 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:15.960 really does always come down like poker is not like 317 00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:21.160 a multiple choice like quiz. It's a dynamic environment where 318 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:25.200 you have to be willing to trust yourself and make 319 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:29.359 bizarre sort of moves that might only make sense in 320 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:32.799 a very unique context. And he does clearly trust himself 321 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:35.519 and is willing to make those plays, and that's clearly 322 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:37.799 benefited him a lot over the last few years. 323 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:41.960 Is it possible to learn from a player by watching 324 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:44.640 them play or talking in hands with them if they 325 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:47.839 are so unconventional? And I think back of a memory 326 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:51.079 that I have where I believe was Patrick Antonius trying 327 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:53.640 to do a training video and it was really funny 328 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:56.240 because you know, he clearly knew what to do, but 329 00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:58.880 he didn't really know one hundred percent how to sort 330 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:01.960 of lay it out in that sort of way that 331 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:05.279 you know, you guys would do on your training sites. 332 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:08.319 Not to throw shade at Patrick, of course, it's one 333 00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:11.279 of those things where, you know, intuition, like the way 334 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:14.119 you described Ivy for example, or Sean Winter, sometimes they 335 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:17.920 do things that might not be the common line, and 336 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:19.240 Jesse Loanis is probably. 337 00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:19.599 A good example. 338 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:23.960 But back to my question, are there learning opportunities in 339 00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:26.920 that even though it might be a little bit of 340 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:29.880 you know, sort of wide magic type situation. 341 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:31.440 Yeah, No, it's a really good question. I think it 342 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:35.920 highlights something interesting about intuition that it will give you 343 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:39.440 a signal and it sometimes is up to you to 344 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:42.480 trust it or not trust it, but then to sort 345 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.519 of back engineer it and figure out like why did 346 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.359 this make sense in context? And I think that in 347 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:52.359 the case of you know, learning from someone like Jesse 348 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:55.599 or the Patrick training video, it's going to be a 349 00:18:55.599 --> 00:19:00.480 little bit more cryptic because there's not as clearly find 350 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:03.880 sort of parameters and rules as to why they're operating. 351 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:07.559 But in general, I mean all winning players are going 352 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:11.359 to converge around some similar ideas. An example I like 353 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.839 about this is you're familiar with Mikhael Tall. He was 354 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.240 like a prolific chess player, Yeah, and he was known 355 00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:21.400 for his like elaborate sacrifices and exotic sort of play style. 356 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:23.960 But to get to that level, you're going to draw 357 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:27.039 a lot of games against gms and play fairly sound 358 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:31.279 in a lot of spots. And I think that like Prime, 359 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:34.599 Adamo or Fade or even like, there was a lot 360 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:38.599 of a lot of hype around some of these. I 361 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:40.680 think exotic is a good word to describe the plays 362 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:43.039 they would make, But most of the time they're just 363 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:45.920 playing like good standard poker. They're just willing to push 364 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.519 the boundaries in some cases, and those you know that 365 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:50.880 will make a big impact on one's win, right, especially 366 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:52.480 when it goes well over a short stretch. 367 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.079 Do you think that for those types of players like Lonus, 368 00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:00.240 Fade or Odamo, do you think that them get to 369 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.079 a certain level of fame it gives them an extra 370 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.000 edge because of the perception of their play now becoming 371 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:10.000 a factor where people anticipate them playing a certain style. 372 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:13.400 And then of course the I guess X factor being 373 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:16.119 can they adjust and profit from that. 374 00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:19.480 Yeah, And I was going to mention that I think, yes, 375 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:23.039 it definitely will help, and especially if they're willing to 376 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:28.720 sort of discern how players, whether you know, pros or recreationals, 377 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:32.160 will feel like they're doing something that they may not 378 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:35.480 be doing. I think that's something I heard. Joe Kata 379 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:37.240 mentioned this at one point that after he won the 380 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:39.839 main event, he went on like a prolonged sort of 381 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:43.319 downswing where he didn't realize that he just had to 382 00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:45.839 play like he was an old man and he'd just 383 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:50.920 constantly get paid. I think having an understanding of, yeah, 384 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:53.920 just how people perceive you, like a meta table image 385 00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:56.920 would definitely be necessary in those cases where you're on 386 00:20:57.160 --> 00:20:57.759 such a rip. 387 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:02.200 So for yourself, playing a lot in an environment where 388 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:05.319 you play against the same players all the time, would 389 00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:08.559 you say that because of your intuition and the way 390 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:12.039 that you are able to tap into it or trust it, 391 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:15.720 or you know, sometimes that sort of wave hits, would 392 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:18.319 you say it's an advantage to you to play a 393 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:20.839 lot against the same people because it might strengthen those 394 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:24.160 feelings because you get to play against a lot of 395 00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:26.519 the same players over and over again, where you know 396 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:29.759 you might even like subconsciously pick up on things towards 397 00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:30.559 certain opponents. 398 00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:35.519 Yeah, I mean I do think again, like just repetition 399 00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:41.279 will be helpful in that respect. It's maybe tempered by 400 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:46.039 the fact that those are primarily great players. Yeah, so yeah, 401 00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:48.200