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Speaker 1: Separation is kind of just an illusion. We create separation

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between things, but reality is one thing that you are

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your experience.

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Speaker 2: Hey, this is Remco.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for clicking on a video.

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Speaker 2: This is my brand new podcast called Face the Ace,

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in which I talked to the most interesting people in

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poker and go a little deeper into the topics you

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most care about. Enjoy. I have a fellow recent dad

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with me millions and earnings, written books. He's done it all,

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but we still have tons of talk about even though

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I've known this guy for such a long time. Andrew Lichtenberger,

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Welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you.

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Just to start off with what has today been like

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in dad life? I won the latest chapter.

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Speaker 1: Well, I just got back to Vegas last night, my wife, myself,

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my brother, and my daughter at one am last night,

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so we were in New York. So today was unpacking,

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getting things sort of back in order. Yeah, I mean

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it's always a new adventure. We were setting up some

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pack and plays for the baby so we can have

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somewhere to put her because she's getting a lot more

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mobile now. I don't know how old is your.

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Speaker 2: My son is turning one at the end of May.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, so you're a few months ahead of us.

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You know what that's like. Yeah, yeah, ye're pretty quick.

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They are pretty quick. They're very resourceful.

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Speaker 2: It's just awesome to have noticed the shift in the

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way I approach life just by having another human involved.

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Oh yeah, But I feel as though, out of all

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the people that I'll interview on the show, you are

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probably mentally prepared for every type of scenario because you've

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been so involved with mindfulness, You've been so involved with

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sort of learning more about yourself and the universe, to

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just put it that way, Maybe there's many universes we

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don't even know. But would you say that any of

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the things that you've gone through on a personal level

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have sort of set you up for success to become

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a father or is it perhaps something so different that

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even you could not have anticipated how that would feel

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and sort of develop.

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Speaker 1: That's a really question. I do think that my I

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would say, willingness to be open and just sort of

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accept the uncertainty of life and the adventure that's naturally

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present in it does prepare me for the Yeah, just

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unusual things that happen and will probably increasingly occur as

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a parent. But I will say that I probably over

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exaggerated in my head how different it was going to

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be because I found it striking in the first Like,

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let's just say month, how many things were the same,

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Like I was totally prepared for my entire life to

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come crashing down and just something totally new to happen.

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It was like, oh, well, I'm still me, my wife's

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still her, we still live in the same house, you

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know what I mean. So I guess a bit of both.

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But it's been really fun and yeah, I just melt

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every time she smiles and laughs, and it's it's just incredible.

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I'm just loving it.

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Speaker 2: We could do like POGs podcast, so we can go

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deep on that. That's probably worth another a couple of

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chapters and seasons as the years go on, so we'll

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keep every when you're ready, Yeah, exactly, we can totally

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do that. But there there are sort of a larger

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topic at hand that ties into the uniqueness of your

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position in poker from the way I see it, because

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obviously you're very much involved on the on the solver side,

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the studying side, and trying to become the best possible player,

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and then you have this highly contrasting sort of look

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on life and and and approach to life, and you know,

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the yoga of poker and the camp set. We can

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talk about all that stuff, but to me, it almost

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feels like so polarizing in how those things can be

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so different and that spectrum could be so wide. Why

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do you think it is that you fit into both

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those sort of boxes, if you will, because I don't

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think you could find many people that that that fit

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those both.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I I appreciate you acknowledging that. I do

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recognize that it can appear to be very contrasted, and

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in a sense it is. But the way I see

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it is that they're two sides of the same coin,

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and I often liken it to the left and right

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side of the brain, like one is more logical, rigid, structured,

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and the other is more creative, imaginative, intuitive, And I

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think that the solvers present an opportunity to create frameworks

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and understand, within a very sort of rigid framework, what

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strategies will look like and how people can or should

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play given those parameters. But the reality is that in poker,

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you don't always get the luxury of having those handed

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to you on a silver platter. In some cases you will,

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and that's you know, nice, I suppose, or easy as

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it were. But the reason I find of this more

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fluid way, woo way or chemist type of approach to

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be valuable is that when you're navigating uncertainty in poker,

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like you really do, kind of have to embrace it

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and just sort of figure it out on the fly,

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and the structure helps, but it's not always going to

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be the answer, and that's where I think intuition comes

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into play.

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Speaker 2: You did a podcast recently with Chance Cornith where you

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specifically mentioned Sean Winter and how he does weird stuff

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if you want to just put it very plainly, Yeah,

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but you also said more often than not, he is right,

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even though it should be random. Why do you use

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him as an example and not yourself? Do you feel

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like your intuition needs needs a lot more work. Do

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you see him as a very intuitive person, as something

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that he naturally possesses.

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Speaker 1: How do you look at that?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 1: I do think he is very intuitive. I think he's

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probably leaned into it to a greater extent than myself

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or other players over time. I think that's an interesting

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kind of topic generally, is how much are players willing

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to lean into it. Like Prime Ivy is sort of

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the example that comes to mind as someone who was

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just very deep in there. And I also think that

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because I've had this kind of funny thought like, let's

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just say, irrespective of what people believe, let's just say, hypothetically,

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there is some Yogi and the Hamalias meditating right now,

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and if we just brought him in this state of

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zen to the Pokerro studio, would his intuition actually like

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accomplish anything or would the lack of understanding of the

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structure of the game hold him back? And I'm inclined

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to believe that the latter is more likely. And that's

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where I think that, you know, going back to like

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a Prime Ivy, he probably didn't have as much of

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a theoretical basis. He would have obviously had a deep

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understanding of the game, but as you know, the industry

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has changed and more ideas become commonplace and more access

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to information is present. I do feel that intuition, it's

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not that you have to temper it by but I

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think it's boosted by a theoretical understanding that one has

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and the topic of like how deep can you go

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with it? So I don't know. It's something I've thought

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a lot about. I think there's always room for improvement

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with anything strategically or intuitively, and I just always am

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trying to improve in that right lect.

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Speaker 2: But I find that so fascinating because, as some people know,

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I've lost a lot of weight over time. And this

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is relevant because a lot of times when I talk

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to people about health and lifestyle changes, the biggest thing

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that I like to focus on is that you shouldn't

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be majoring in the miners as far as don't focus

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on the details, do the big things right. To me,

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it almost feels like the miners are that intuition, that

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last little push, the last little extra. If you're not

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doing the majors right, which is the studying and the

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theory based and the fundamentals, you never even have to

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worry about the intuition because that is sort of like

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the cherry on top that you develop over time because

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of repetition and and and and you know, talent and

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all those kinds of things. Do you think that people

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can sort of start to tap into that sort of

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final set of additional skills or perhaps intuition once they

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have that solid foundation, as you mentioned, you know, the

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yogi probably wouldn't do that well at the book table.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting it's an interesting way to look

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at it. I'm inclined to think that intuition has more

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I don't know if I want to say more value

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or more relevant than it being like a final push.

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I feel that it's always valuable, especially as it pertains

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to just executing at the table, irrespective of what level

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you're playing at. But yeah, I'm not I'm not sure.

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I mean, I can't really quantify it, and it's also

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maybe a bit challenging to speak generally on it because

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I am going to be biased by my own experience

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with it, and it is something that's very authentic to me.

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Feel very inclined towards it being something that is not

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just the final push, that it's kind of always finding

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a way. For example, like with solver strategies, so many

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decisions are mixed, and furthermore, the models are fairly fragile

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in a lot of cases, and if you make a

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few assumptions, then they'll shift dramatically. And you make more

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larger assumptions and they'll shift even more dramatically. And I

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think that that's where I see intuition has a lot

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of value in being able to make those adjustments without

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having a sort of premeditated approach to a spot.

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Speaker 2: When you think back to when poker was easy, so

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to say, right when talent and hard work and having

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a few friends you can discuss hands with was enough

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to really do very well. Do you think that you're

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general mindset then could have could have been like applied

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to be successful in the current state of the game,

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or do you think that the entire progression you went

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through was necessary to still be successful now?

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Speaker 1: Hmmm? I think yeah, I mean I think I could.

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I could still be successful if I didn't change that much,

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but it would be rocky road, that's for sure. But

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I did not always But there was a certain point.

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I can't tell you exactly when it was, but I

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have valued for a long time, like the understanding of

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structure and the willingness to deviate from it when appropriate.

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But yeah, I mean, in the early days, having like

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any structure, even just being able to sort of conceptualize

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what the fundamentals of poker might look like and how

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to build strategies around these, you know, cohesive or coherent ideas.

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That was such a huge leg up back then, and

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that was something that was largely innate for me. I

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guess I could say I got lucky with it, but

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it's just sort of probably influence from my parents in

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some sense, and just sort of the game or brain

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that I have.

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Speaker 2: Right, But is it like talent and intuition and perhaps

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maybe some some pattern recognition to where you know, just

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through repetitions, even though you're not you know, studied in

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like a clinical sense, you're improving almost like on a

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daily basis, even though you might not be conscious of

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that improvement.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think anytime you're immersed in something,

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you're probably going to continue to improve as long as

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you're open, right and reflective of what's happening.

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Speaker 2: Right. So, then in that sort of early era, were

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there key moments you remember or key people that you

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met that in hindsight turned out to be sort of

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pivotal towards your continued growth in the game, like instances

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or people that contributed, And if you have examples of that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the one example that comes to mind

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is I was playing an online session, which was you know,

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part for the course. I was playing probably almost every day,

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and I just remember I had the spot I had

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Ace Queen on an ACE high board. Maybe it was

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a three bet pot, maybe it was a single race pot.

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I can't really remember, but it was some like ACE

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nine deuce rainbow, just some dry spot. I just felt

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like bad about it, and I was like, huh, this

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is weird. I, you know, previous to this moment, because

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this was somewhat of a watershed experience for me, I

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just didn't really either have the awareness of what these

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intuitive signals would be or care to delve into them.

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But I checked it back and then I ended up

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losing a smaller pot than I would have and my

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opponent had Ace king. I was like, Okay, that's pretty interesting,

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and then I just sort of kept an eye out

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for when that similar signal would come. And I guess

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over the years, I've valued what those signals look and

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feel like, and I have oscillated. There's been times where

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I feel like I basically I have gas lit myself

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into thinking that like that's not real, and then I

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have to like touch the hot stove and realize that

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that doesn't feel good. So it's been a journey. But yeah,

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I mean it's it's fascinating because I do think that

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I was more naturally predisposed to just like a purely

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logical approach. As far as people I met over the

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years who would have maybe assisted in that, gosh, I

246
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mean really so many people. I can't pick any out

247
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in particular, but from the generation I came up in

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before solvers, there was no I mean, there was some

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convergence around ideas, but there was a lot. Yeah, there's

250
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a lot more that was just subjects to interpretation because yeah,

251
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everyone was just sort of figuring it out of the fly. Yeah,

252
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and I appreciate. I just added that I really did

253
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appreciate when they came out, although I had some early

254
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resistance because I was like, well, it's kind of nice

255
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to be able to quantify these things that we've sort

256
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of not known for a while and ruminated on. Soh yeah,

257
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I just thought it was cool when it happened.

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Speaker 2: It's fun to like speculate on this because in a way,

259
00:14:08,919 --> 00:14:11,679
becoming a really good poker player has never been easier

260
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because the access to tools is there's so many. If

261
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you wanted, you could study for a whole year before

262
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,559
even playing a single handed poker and then showing up

263
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being well prepared. But back when you came up, it

264
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was almost like, you know, a bunch of young kids

265
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would win like satellites to PCA and epts, and they

266
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would all meet and they would all find common ground.

267
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They're all like, you know, under the age of twenty

268
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and become instant best friends. And that sort of group

269
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pushed themselves to a very high level, very quickly in

270
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relation to the field totally. How do you look at

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those two different ways to reach the top, Because you know,

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the case can be made that the access now is

273
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what's crucial to reach the top, but also it's harder

274
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than ever because the competition is so strong.

275
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Speaker 1: Yes, it's a good point. The access to information is

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just going to be helpful if someone's like newer to poker,

277
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And I do think it's always been a possibility to

278
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start from scratch and make it to the highest stakes.

279
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And I would even add that because there is a

280
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more ubiquitous understanding of poker theory and you can just

281
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figure things out if you want to. To me, that,

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by contrast, highlights the importance of intuition and execution and

283
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all the soft skills that go along with understanding the

284
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structure of the game, because not that everybody will have

285
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the same understanding. That's clearly not the case. There's so

286
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much nuance to it, and the game tree is huge,

287
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But if people are generally converging around similar ish ideas,

288
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it's like, well, what will give you an adage? What

289
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is like the next frontier so to speak? And to

290
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me it is all those soft skills.

291
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Speaker 2: From the guys you've seen come up in like, let's say,

292
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,679
less five years that you know are playing in the

293
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Pocco studio or you know you see him at like

294
00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:09,799
big final tables across the country or even internationally. Can

295
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,000
you pinpoint to something having played against those players that

296
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sort of has given them the opportunity to reach the top?

297
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,279
Do you see something in their playing style, or in

298
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,679
their you know, social skills, or in perhaps something you

299
00:16:23,679 --> 00:16:25,720
know from talking to them that that sort of sets

300
00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:29,039
them apart from perhaps others from their generation who have

301
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:29,639
not made it.

302
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the first name that comes to mind

303
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,720
is Jesse Lanis. I think he started kind of competing

304
00:16:36,759 --> 00:16:40,000
in like mid to higher stakes tournaments around COVID. You

305
00:16:40,039 --> 00:16:43,840
know when I first met him. Not trying to burche

306
00:16:43,879 --> 00:16:46,679
hate on the gorilla, I love him, but I was skeptical.

307
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,600
I mean, he's just playing like pretty different than most people.

308
00:16:49,919 --> 00:16:51,320
And that was probably around the time that I was

309
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,480
stuck in a more rigid kind of mindset. But I mean,

310
00:16:55,519 --> 00:16:57,679
he has great soft skills, There's just no two ways

311
00:16:57,679 --> 00:17:02,000
about it, and he it is just a great card player.

312
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:03,919
At the end of the day. That's actually really what

313
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,640
matters because we're playing cards. So I do think that

314
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,920
just as much as it was true back in the

315
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,319
day when we were winning PCA packages and whatnot, it

316
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,960
really does always come down like poker is not like

317
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:21,160
a multiple choice like quiz. It's a dynamic environment where

318
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,200
you have to be willing to trust yourself and make

319
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,359
bizarre sort of moves that might only make sense in

320
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,799
a very unique context. And he does clearly trust himself

321
00:17:32,799 --> 00:17:35,519
and is willing to make those plays, and that's clearly

322
00:17:35,559 --> 00:17:37,799
benefited him a lot over the last few years.

323
00:17:38,799 --> 00:17:41,960
Speaker 2: Is it possible to learn from a player by watching

324
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,640
them play or talking in hands with them if they

325
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,839
are so unconventional? And I think back of a memory

326
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,079
that I have where I believe was Patrick Antonius trying

327
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,640
to do a training video and it was really funny

328
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,240
because you know, he clearly knew what to do, but

329
00:17:56,319 --> 00:17:58,880
he didn't really know one hundred percent how to sort

330
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,960
of lay it out in that sort of way that

331
00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,279
you know, you guys would do on your training sites.

332
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,319
Not to throw shade at Patrick, of course, it's one

333
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,279
of those things where, you know, intuition, like the way

334
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,119
you described Ivy for example, or Sean Winter, sometimes they

335
00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,920
do things that might not be the common line, and

336
00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:19,240
Jesse Loanis is probably.

337
00:18:19,039 --> 00:18:19,599
Speaker 1: A good example.

338
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,960
Speaker 2: But back to my question, are there learning opportunities in

339
00:18:24,039 --> 00:18:26,920
that even though it might be a little bit of

340
00:18:27,079 --> 00:18:29,880
you know, sort of wide magic type situation.

341
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's a really good question. I think it

342
00:18:31,519 --> 00:18:35,920
highlights something interesting about intuition that it will give you

343
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,440
a signal and it sometimes is up to you to

344
00:18:40,039 --> 00:18:42,480
trust it or not trust it, but then to sort

345
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,519
of back engineer it and figure out like why did

346
00:18:45,519 --> 00:18:49,359
this make sense in context? And I think that in

347
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,359
the case of you know, learning from someone like Jesse

348
00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:55,599
or the Patrick training video, it's going to be a

349
00:18:55,599 --> 00:19:00,480
little bit more cryptic because there's not as clearly find

350
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,880
sort of parameters and rules as to why they're operating.

351
00:19:04,039 --> 00:19:07,559
But in general, I mean all winning players are going

352
00:19:07,599 --> 00:19:11,359
to converge around some similar ideas. An example I like

353
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,839
about this is you're familiar with Mikhael Tall. He was

354
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,240
like a prolific chess player, Yeah, and he was known

355
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,400
for his like elaborate sacrifices and exotic sort of play style.

356
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,960
But to get to that level, you're going to draw

357
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,039
a lot of games against gms and play fairly sound

358
00:19:27,039 --> 00:19:31,279
in a lot of spots. And I think that like Prime,

359
00:19:31,279 --> 00:19:34,599
Adamo or Fade or even like, there was a lot

360
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,599
of a lot of hype around some of these. I

361
00:19:38,599 --> 00:19:40,680
think exotic is a good word to describe the plays

362
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,039
they would make, But most of the time they're just

363
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,920
playing like good standard poker. They're just willing to push

364
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,519
the boundaries in some cases, and those you know that

365
00:19:48,519 --> 00:19:50,880
will make a big impact on one's win, right, especially

366
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:52,480
when it goes well over a short stretch.

367
00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:56,079
Speaker 2: Do you think that for those types of players like Lonus,

368
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,240
Fade or Odamo, do you think that them get to

369
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,079
a certain level of fame it gives them an extra

370
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,000
edge because of the perception of their play now becoming

371
00:20:07,079 --> 00:20:10,000
a factor where people anticipate them playing a certain style.

372
00:20:10,319 --> 00:20:13,400
And then of course the I guess X factor being

373
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,119
can they adjust and profit from that.

374
00:20:16,319 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I was going to mention that I think, yes,

375
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,039
it definitely will help, and especially if they're willing to

376
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:28,720
sort of discern how players, whether you know, pros or recreationals,

377
00:20:28,759 --> 00:20:32,160
will feel like they're doing something that they may not

378
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,480
be doing. I think that's something I heard. Joe Kata

379
00:20:35,519 --> 00:20:37,240
mentioned this at one point that after he won the

380
00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:39,839
main event, he went on like a prolonged sort of

381
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,319
downswing where he didn't realize that he just had to

382
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,839
play like he was an old man and he'd just

383
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,920
constantly get paid. I think having an understanding of, yeah,

384
00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:53,920
just how people perceive you, like a meta table image

385
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,920
would definitely be necessary in those cases where you're on

386
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:57,759
such a rip.

387
00:20:58,319 --> 00:21:02,200
Speaker 2: So for yourself, playing a lot in an environment where

388
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,319
you play against the same players all the time, would

389
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,559
you say that because of your intuition and the way

390
00:21:08,599 --> 00:21:12,039
that you are able to tap into it or trust it,

391
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,720
or you know, sometimes that sort of wave hits, would

392
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,319
you say it's an advantage to you to play a

393
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,839
lot against the same people because it might strengthen those

394
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,160
feelings because you get to play against a lot of

395
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,519
the same players over and over again, where you know

396
00:21:26,599 --> 00:21:29,759
you might even like subconsciously pick up on things towards

397
00:21:29,799 --> 00:21:30,559
certain opponents.

398
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I do think again, like just repetition

399
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:41,279
will be helpful in that respect. It's maybe tempered by

400
00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:46,039
the fact that those are primarily great players. Yeah, so yeah,

401
00:21:46,039 --> 00:21:48,200
I mean it depends, like what the other group would

402
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,000
be if that's the control group, is the other group

403
00:21:50,039 --> 00:21:52,519
also great players or are they like unknown? Because I

404
00:21:52,839 --> 00:21:54,759
would do better against the unknown and for sure even

405
00:21:54,799 --> 00:21:57,480
with less data, and I would get tricked sometimes, right, Like,

406
00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,160
I mean, that is a cool thing that I think

407
00:21:59,279 --> 00:22:03,160
makes poker popular. Someone can come off the street and

408
00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:05,799
just you know, trick an Ivy or an Agrando or

409
00:22:05,839 --> 00:22:08,400
whoever because they just you know, they just have an

410
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,799
erratic style. But yeah, over the long run, you know,

411
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,759
there'll be adjustments and clarity had how much.

412
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,759
Speaker 2: Sort of self awareness do you have to do you

413
00:22:17,799 --> 00:22:20,079
have to bring to the table when you're playing in

414
00:22:20,079 --> 00:22:23,160
a field where you know you are the most known

415
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,640
player at your table, do you have to try and

416
00:22:25,759 --> 00:22:28,039
learn whether they know who you are and does that

417
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,480
help your game? Or do you sort of have to

418
00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:34,599
make perhaps general adjustments because you have to assume that

419
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,079
people might want to, you know, tell their friend that

420
00:22:37,079 --> 00:22:39,359
they've bluffed luck a Chewi.

421
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,319
Speaker 1: That's a great question. I will admit that I don't

422
00:22:43,319 --> 00:22:45,599
think this is something that I've done the absolute best

423
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,559
job of over the course of my career. I mean,

424
00:22:48,599 --> 00:22:52,240
I do think I've done well enough at that, but

425
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,559
I think that different people perceive me differently, and I

426
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:01,240
don't always totally recognize how that might look. I guess

427
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,000
strategically I sort of figure it out or get close

428
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,240
enough to what the answer would be or how they

429
00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:10,680
would play in a spot. But yeah, I've often been

430
00:23:10,759 --> 00:23:15,000
surprised at things people say, like comments and passing. Like

431
00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:17,960
one that comes to mind is many people over the

432
00:23:18,079 --> 00:23:21,920
years have mentioned they feel I'm like very like mathematic

433
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,680
or almost robotic, and I'm like, okay, I can see

434
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,839
why they would think that, but I don't necessary like

435
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,839
I mean, I do love numbers. And my wife would

436
00:23:31,839 --> 00:23:34,119
probably laugh at me telling you this, like She's like,

437
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,079
why would you be surprised by that? But it's just

438
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,200
because of my own internal process around the game and

439
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,400
that I am willing to really rely on intuition in

440
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,599
key moments but in all moments really, so in a way.

441
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,039
Speaker 2: You're you've all correct if I'm wrong, but it feels

442
00:23:49,079 --> 00:23:55,039
like you're saying that you don't necessarily make adjustments because

443
00:23:55,039 --> 00:23:58,440
that's almost like baked into your style because of the

444
00:23:59,079 --> 00:24:02,279
roots being in the in the math. That sort of

445
00:24:02,279 --> 00:24:07,519
pushes you towards perhaps randomizing or making adjustments just because

446
00:24:07,519 --> 00:24:08,799
that's what the situation calls for.

447
00:24:09,839 --> 00:24:12,799
Speaker 1: Well, I just think poker is inherently a game of adjusting.

448
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,160
So places in which I would say I make adjustments

449
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:24,680
would be more deviations based on ideally more concrete than

450
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,359
sort of ephemeral data. But in spots where it is

451
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,559
a mixed decision, then you can kind of go either

452
00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:37,119
way if your assumptions are accurate enough. And that's where

453
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,119
I personally think intuition has a lot of value because

454
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,440
it's like, well, if it's the same either way in

455
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,799
the long run, well, your opponent has two cards in

456
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,720
this spot. So if you can like quote unquote guess right, like,

457
00:24:50,839 --> 00:24:53,000
it's going to be worthwhile.

458
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 2: How fast does the brain of someone at your level

459
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,880
process these things as the hands is developing. How much

460
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,319
of this is internal talk? How much of this is

461
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:10,880
perhaps just appearing in front of you. I know people

462
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,720
that have like a photographic memory, and they remember things

463
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,920
very vividly. But I also know people that have like

464
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,359
this very strong internal dialogue that sort of leads them

465
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,400
down as a decision making process. What does it look

466
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:22,839
like for you?

467
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question to me. It's sort of

468
00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:31,240
it asks like, how does intuition work on an individual basis?

469
00:25:31,279 --> 00:25:33,640
I would say it's different day to day. It's sometimes

470
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,480
different over the course of a day. I mean, I

471
00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:40,440
suppose it's a pretty well oiled machine at this point.

472
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,480
There's plenty of room for improvement. I'm not entirely clairvoyant,

473
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,440
to say the least, but I guess probably the physiological

474
00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:54,160
sensations are maybe most reliable in some cases. And sometimes

475
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,240
it is like an inner dialogue, and that can also

476
00:25:56,279 --> 00:25:59,839
be very helpful, just a firm, kind of clear deck

477
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,240
of like this is what you should be doing here.

478
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:09,599
Speaker 2: Do you, for example, memorize or reach back for memories

479
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,759
on things you've studied while things are happening in the

480
00:26:12,799 --> 00:26:16,119
moment or is it more so almost like programmed to

481
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,799
where you see something and it triggers like almost like

482
00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:23,960
an instinct where you know that the decision tree is

483
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:25,240
going in a certain direction.

484
00:26:25,519 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I will occasionally do the former in a

485
00:26:29,319 --> 00:26:32,200
spot where like, let's say I want to discern what

486
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,119
a reasonable beat size would be with my range, for example,

487
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,119
but for like a hand specific, combo specific type of play,

488
00:26:39,559 --> 00:26:42,759
I feel it's generally more the latter, where I think

489
00:26:42,759 --> 00:26:45,359
the value in understanding that structure is to feed the

490
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,799
subconscious in understanding and then let the intuition just sort

491
00:26:49,799 --> 00:26:54,240
of take over and mandate how should this be coalesced

492
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:55,400
and executed.

493
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,599
Speaker 2: So what would you give as advice to players who

494
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,079
say I enjoy studying. I enjoy, you know, playing all

495
00:27:04,079 --> 00:27:06,880
those solver games. I have good scores on those things,

496
00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:09,279
but when I'm in the moment, I'm having a really

497
00:27:09,279 --> 00:27:12,680
hard time applying it. It's almost like the solver is

498
00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:17,119
like a video game. But then real poker is such

499
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,480
a different environment to where whether it's recall or whether

500
00:27:20,519 --> 00:27:24,200
it's intuition is sort of lacking. So there could be

501
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,400
a situation where frustration arises when you feel like you've

502
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,279
done the work, but then applying it becomes like a

503
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:31,119
whole new.

504
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,559
Speaker 1: Set of issues, totally extremely relatable for myself and many others.

505
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,200
And I feel that this is kind of again where

506
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,960
we get to that dichotomy of thinking versus feeling, because

507
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,759
like the thought is well established, but the feel it's

508
00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:48,759
almost like it's been well, if not neglected, then sort

509
00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:52,279
of disparaged in a sense. It can almost be seen

510
00:27:52,319 --> 00:27:56,720
as a weakness in many cases. And I mean I

511
00:27:56,759 --> 00:28:00,519
suppose that although this wasn't like the main reason that

512
00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:04,039
I built the Chemist app, but even if you don't

513
00:28:04,039 --> 00:28:08,279
believe in extrasensory phenomena at all, just the idea that

514
00:28:08,319 --> 00:28:11,319
you would engage in an activity where you are not

515
00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:15,400
thinking and feeling, I think can be helpful because that's really,

516
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,960
to me, the heart of the matter. You have knowledge

517
00:28:19,559 --> 00:28:21,799
and you're then in a spot where you have to

518
00:28:21,839 --> 00:28:26,359
take that knowledge in like a somewhat tense, pressure filled

519
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,160
scenario and determine, like what am I going to do

520
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,279
with this knowledge now? And I think that if you

521
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,519
ignore the fact that I mean, in a lot of cases,

522
00:28:37,559 --> 00:28:41,440
I think people have emotional blocks, there's some inner conflict

523
00:28:41,519 --> 00:28:45,200
or friction or something that is preventing that progress and

524
00:28:45,319 --> 00:28:50,079
engaging in activities like meditation, mindfulness type of things. I mean,

525
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,000
maybe the Chemist app can help with that if one

526
00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:55,400
is reflective, but I think just generally freeing up your

527
00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:00,839
ability to feel comfortable feeling and being to do what

528
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,000
you feel is correct. I think something many people have

529
00:29:05,079 --> 00:29:07,680
mentioned and I would echo this sentiment is that you

530
00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:10,599
really do have to not be afraid to look stupid, right,

531
00:29:10,759 --> 00:29:13,599
because if you're afraid of looking stupid, you almost ensure

532
00:29:13,599 --> 00:29:15,880
the fact that you will look stupid. Yeah, it's just

533
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,039
kind of like part of the game. And if you're

534
00:29:19,079 --> 00:29:22,039
willing to do that, that's like almost a superpower for.

535
00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: Those Just real quick for those that don't know about

536
00:29:24,279 --> 00:29:26,359
the camp st and we'll link it below as well,

537
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:28,960
give a brief.

538
00:29:28,839 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: Description of how it works. Yeah, so it's just a

539
00:29:31,519 --> 00:29:35,200
randomly shuffled deck of cards. You are then just feeling

540
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,400
which card is coming next, and you're scored based on

541
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,799
how well you guess. You get one point for the

542
00:29:39,839 --> 00:29:41,720
right suit, three for the rank, and thirteen for a

543
00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:43,799
perfect And as you go throughout the deck, it's not

544
00:29:43,839 --> 00:29:46,480
populating new cards, you're seeing them get grayed out, so

545
00:29:46,599 --> 00:29:48,279
you can never pick a card that has a yeo

546
00:29:48,359 --> 00:29:49,960
percent probability of being correct.

547
00:29:50,359 --> 00:29:55,279
Speaker 2: Right, So it's kind of like intuition, but it's also

548
00:29:55,359 --> 00:29:59,720
kind of like a memorization game because of the.

549
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,319
Speaker 1: Remot cards knows you're seeing on the Street Seeker. Great app. Yeah,

550
00:30:03,799 --> 00:30:07,839
it's a very specific form of intuition, which Heartmouth Institute

551
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,559
has designated as non local intuition. Some people would call

552
00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:15,839
it precognition. And I just think that's fascinating. The extent

553
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,680
to which I'm capable of it, I'm not sure I've

554
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,039
had enough experiences where I enjoyed doing it, and I

555
00:30:21,079 --> 00:30:22,519
was like, Okay, well, I'll just make the app. It

556
00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:25,039
was a fun project anyway, and maybe it'll, you know,

557
00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:27,359
be of interest to some people. My wife and I

558
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,079
actually did a one day retreat event up at Mount Charleston.

559
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,359
We got twenty people up there, and she's a Chinese

560
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,119
medical doctor and she talked about how that framework in

561
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,720
philosophy relate to intuition, and we did some exercises. She's

562
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,400
taught some chigong and we had a great time. But

563
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,759
I just think it's fascinating because I know that these

564
00:30:46,799 --> 00:30:52,519
are real phenomena, and I think poker is largely an

565
00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:56,200
industry that has not embraced them at the highest levels.

566
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,000
But if you talk to like any casual player, they're

567
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,720
pretty much all interested in it because of the way

568
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:07,160
that you feel in hands, and it's just a significantly

569
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,160
more common sentiment in smaller stakes games. And of course,

570
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,680
the you know, counterpoint would be like, well, they're not experts,

571
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,200
so like why would you value it? They're not playing

572
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,680
at your level. But I think there's like something to

573
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,880
be said for that that, you know, that's something that

574
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:21,799
draws people to poker.

575
00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:27,799
Speaker 2: Honestly, this, this whole, this whole concept and this topic,

576
00:31:28,119 --> 00:31:31,960
it raises so many interesting thoughts with me because my

577
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,960
sort of very I guess, you know, I come from

578
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,960
a small town, and like it's kind of like this

579
00:31:39,039 --> 00:31:41,880
rigid sort of structural thinking where you know, just you know,

580
00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:44,599
stay normal and just like don't don't start floating through

581
00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:46,920
the air with all your crazy thoughts. And that's like

582
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:48,359
the first thing that comes to mind, like come on,

583
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,519
what the hell are we talking about here? But then

584
00:31:50,559 --> 00:31:53,279
as you go deeper into the conversation, it becomes fascinating

585
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:55,200
to the point where.

586
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:57,599
Speaker 1: Like, you you don't.

587
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,599
Speaker 2: Lose anything from from from trying this, and you don't

588
00:32:00,599 --> 00:32:02,200
there's no downside.

589
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,839
Speaker 1: So I certainly don't think so that's that's me saying that, right,

590
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,200
But I believe, yeah.

591
00:32:06,079 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: I believe that too, because it's always good to try

592
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,279
and do new things and to like learn about stuff,

593
00:32:12,319 --> 00:32:13,119
even if you are.

594
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: Skeptical about it.

595
00:32:14,079 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: Sure, but I find it funny, especially in the context

596
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:23,319
of poker. Yeah, because in a way it almost perfectly fits,

597
00:32:23,359 --> 00:32:24,680
but it also perfectly doesn't fit.

598
00:32:25,039 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: Well, it doesn't fit because of the cultural boundaries or

599
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,960
the Overton window or whatever you want to call it.

600
00:32:31,079 --> 00:32:33,319
But at the end of the day, I mean, I

601
00:32:33,359 --> 00:32:35,640
have had a decent amount of success in poker, and

602
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,559
these are completely authentic things to me. And I'm like, well,

603
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,839
you know, people can take it or leave it, but

604
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,519
I'm not like lying about the stuff I experience. You know,

605
00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:49,119
someone could argue, like a Devil's advocate point that I'm

606
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,799
not perceiving my own experience is accurately enough, which like

607
00:32:52,839 --> 00:32:54,759
fair enough. I don't really have a counterpoint to that.

608
00:32:54,839 --> 00:32:57,440
But I mean, when I look within, I'm like, Okay, well,

609
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,359
what's going on? Like, yeah, I think that there's there's

610
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,960
value in intuition and feeling, in understanding your emotions. I

611
00:33:06,039 --> 00:33:08,079
just I think of it broadly as soft skills.

612
00:33:08,359 --> 00:33:12,599
Speaker 2: I find it sort of fun to think about when

613
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,319
you and whenever this might have been along the journey,

614
00:33:16,359 --> 00:33:20,000
when you consider yourself successful or established or you know,

615
00:33:20,279 --> 00:33:24,319
now I have the means to live a life where

616
00:33:24,319 --> 00:33:26,880
I don't have to really, you know, grind day to day.

617
00:33:27,079 --> 00:33:32,039
Whatever that moment was, I wonder how much that sort

618
00:33:32,079 --> 00:33:37,319
of freedom had an impact on how you started thinking

619
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,599
after that, and how much perhaps more rigid you were

620
00:33:41,599 --> 00:33:45,599
before that because the focus was more on becoming successful.

621
00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny because to an extent, I'm not sure

622
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,200
that that is a healthy perspective to have, and I'm

623
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,119
not sure it's one that I even really do have,

624
00:33:57,559 --> 00:34:01,079
because I'm always concerned that when I go to play,

625
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,079
I may just play terribly and make all kinds of

626
00:34:05,119 --> 00:34:08,239
blunders right, and then look like a fool. And I

627
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,880
think that that's good, Like I like that poker has

628
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,599
that you never have sort of like sailed off into

629
00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:16,079
the sunset and like you turn up works.

630
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,639
Speaker 2: I mean, it's from like a spiritual way where the

631
00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:23,360
freedom of having no immediate financial pressure for each next

632
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,840
event or each next game you play, having that freedom

633
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:28,760
to not be so tied to the day to day

634
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,920
results gave you the room then to become more spiritual

635
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,719
because you had time to open up your mind to

636
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,039
all these things that you're involved with.

637
00:34:36,079 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: Now, I would say that that's a fair point. But

638
00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:45,119
in a sense, the willingness to not feel thrown about

639
00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:47,280
by the daily results is what actually allows you to

640
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,679
get there. You sort of have to become that person

641
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:54,360
that's I don't know is sovereign the right term, or

642
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,559
clear about who you are and what matters to you.

643
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,199
Like if you really, I feel like you're doing your best,

644
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,039
then you shouldn't care as much about the results. There's

645
00:35:05,039 --> 00:35:07,480
still going to be lessons to be learned in every case.

646
00:35:08,079 --> 00:35:10,679
But yeah, I think that sort of getting there first

647
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,639
is what allows the physical aspect of things to arrive

648
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,480
right or seamlessly at least.

649
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,039
Speaker 2: So was there a moment in time in your career

650
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,400
where you felt as though, now I will sort of

651
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,519
stay the course as a poker player because this is

652
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,800
something that I enjoy, this is something that I see

653
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,239
a future in. And on the contrary, have you had

654
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,400
moments where you probably where you thought to yourself, is

655
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,480
this what I want to do? Is this my pathway

656
00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:43,800
to to you know, living in a financially stable life,

657
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,639
because the ups and downs are are never more obvious

658
00:35:47,679 --> 00:35:49,360
than when you talk to a poker player.

659
00:35:49,639 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I think a lot of the very

660
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,320
clear moments of this is something I'm definitely going to do.

661
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,679
Happened early on, and then over time it's been a

662
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:06,199
rocky road in certain cases, especially as I've pursued avenues

663
00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:09,639
and opportunities outside of poker or adjacent to poker. I

664
00:36:09,679 --> 00:36:12,960
guess like every time I succeed in any capacity, it

665
00:36:13,039 --> 00:36:15,639
gives me confidence to keep going. I mean, it's a

666
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,559
challenging game. It was something I like to say, is

667
00:36:18,599 --> 00:36:22,599
you know, whenever something happens where you know someone would

668
00:36:22,639 --> 00:36:25,360
be mowing their bad luck or complain or whatever, I

669
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,039
just say, it's the life I chose. You know, there's

670
00:36:27,079 --> 00:36:30,440
trade offs to everything, and part of what you're rightly

671
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,880
pointing out about, you know, a luxury of the poker

672
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,239
player lifestyle is that, yeah, I don't have to get

673
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,679
up every day and go to a traditional job, and

674
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,440
I'm very grateful for that because it has just never

675
00:36:40,519 --> 00:36:44,679
suited me to live that way. On the other hand, yeah,

676
00:36:44,679 --> 00:36:46,840
those trade offs that you know, you can have a

677
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,960
losing year or deeply question your abilities or feel out

678
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,760
classed or whatever it is that comes with the territory.

679
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 2: What's the longest losing streak you've had or the sort

680
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:02,679
of the lowest point that you've that you've sort of,

681
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,199
I don't know, ended up in and what did it

682
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:06,199
take to turn that around?

683
00:37:07,159 --> 00:37:10,079
Speaker 1: It's usually about a year and a half is sort

684
00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:12,239
of the longest stretch I've had. It's after a few times.

685
00:37:12,079 --> 00:37:13,679
Speaker 2: You're saying it like this happened multiple times.

686
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,639
Speaker 1: It has, Yeah, it definitely has. And then the second

687
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,119
question was like what got me out of it?

688
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, I mean, the easiest answer is, yeah, I

689
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,280
won two million and then all of a sudden I

690
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,079
was back. But clearly it's probably not as simple as

691
00:37:27,079 --> 00:37:27,519
it looks.

692
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,079
Speaker 1: Well. One thing that I feel very strongly about is

693
00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:36,079
that in any prolonged downswing I've had, there was something

694
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,440
like I was just not seeing things. Clearly, there was

695
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,880
a part that I played in it. I was not

696
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,760
a victim. I was just playing bad or wrong about something.

697
00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:47,760
And I feel making whatever mind set shift that was

698
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,679
pertinent at the time really helped unlock that for me.

699
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,519
Speaker 2: Was it a real time sort of assessment or was

700
00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:54,679
it a hindsight assessment?

701
00:37:55,119 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: Uh no, No, it was a real time thing where

702
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,000
I would recognize I'm doing something wrong, I'm thinking about

703
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,880
things incorrectly, and then getting rid of that or shifting

704
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,039
it is probably a better way to say it. Transforming it.

705
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,079
We're just free up emotional bandwidth. It would free up

706
00:38:13,679 --> 00:38:15,800
space in my head that I maybe didn't even know

707
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,599
was there, leading into you know, that prolonged down swing.

708
00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 2: But it's fascinating because in the grand scheme of like

709
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,239
poker's lifelong sort of sample size, especially when it comes

710
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,239
to live poker, you know, the people that have played

711
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,800
online sessions or you know, gone to a million hand

712
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,400
downswing or whatever the case may be, they might hear

713
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,079
this and say, like, you haven't even scratched the surface

714
00:38:42,159 --> 00:38:46,320
yet on what a downswing could be, and whatever it

715
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,360
is that turned it around, it is probably much more

716
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:50,719
variance than it is application.

717
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm very familiar with this view and perspective, and

718
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,599
it's one that I held for a long time. If

719
00:38:57,639 --> 00:39:00,000
I'm speaking honestly about my experience and someone says well,

720
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,800
well that's because of X, Y and Z, I can't

721
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,719
like overrule it and say, well, I'm sure this is

722
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,840
true because this is my experience, like it can be

723
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,960
true for me and someone else can still feel that

724
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:17,559
it's objectively dubious, right, But stepping aside from that, slightly.

725
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:23,960
I am skeptical. I'll say that ontological randomness is a thing,

726
00:39:24,079 --> 00:39:27,440
that randomness truly as a concept, is baked into reality.

727
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,400
I feel that there is there are reasons that things

728
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,840
unfold and happen the way they do, and I'm deeply

729
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,360
intrigued by looking for those reasons. And I feel like,

730
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,400
irrespective of whether I'm right about my skepticism, there taking

731
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,639
ownership over your experiences and looking for ways to improve,

732
00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:47,000
I don't see any downside to that. I feel that

733
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,280
that is a net benefit for anyone who walks that path.

734
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,679
Speaker 2: When you become aware of being in that sort of

735
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,719
downward spiral, you know, as far as your play goes

736
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:04,840
or or your mindset, do you have specific things you

737
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,719
then sort of recenter with, like maybe like some you know,

738
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:13,199
hardcore study hours or additional meditation or long hikes in

739
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,960
the wilderness to perhaps have a reset moment.

740
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: I think all those things can be helpful. I think

741
00:40:20,519 --> 00:40:23,360
of those as you know, they're sort of all tools. Right,

742
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,679
Sometimes doing more is not always the best answer. Sometimes

743
00:40:26,679 --> 00:40:28,800
doing more is what gets you there in the first place.

744
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:36,119
You continually are looking for things to placate this uncertainty

745
00:40:36,199 --> 00:40:38,679
about you know, when will things change? Will they change?

746
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:41,920
Sometimes just accepting it and just being grateful for what

747
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,000
you already have is the way to shift things. So

748
00:40:46,039 --> 00:40:49,400
if it speaks to the individual who's in that case,

749
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,639
I mean sometimes you do have to be also realistic

750
00:40:51,639 --> 00:40:54,519
about the fact, like, hey, maybe I am strategically lacking,

751
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,719
Like if you're consistently blundering in situations where you know

752
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,360
you're heers are not like they understand what these strategies

753
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,320
look like and how to effectively implement them. I mean

754
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,840
clearly that's that's a cause for concern. So, yeah, that

755
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,199
would be one example of where studying would be effective.

756
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,199
If you generally have a good grasp on the game

757
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:20,239
and there's sort of more subtle aspects at play, then

758
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,679
maybe backing off that and yeah, going on a hike

759
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,559
or doing some mindfulness practices would be a more effective

760
00:41:26,679 --> 00:41:29,360
way to you know, extricate yourself from the downswing.

761
00:41:30,079 --> 00:41:32,599
Speaker 2: I know you've coached Landon Tice, who I've talked with

762
00:41:32,679 --> 00:41:35,559
the studio recently, and he mentioned you as like one

763
00:41:35,599 --> 00:41:39,000
of his mentors and how much he he valued that.

764
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,119
But where does someone at your level go for for

765
00:41:43,119 --> 00:41:45,880
for coaching or for help? Is there is there like

766
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,079
another tier of people or do you have one specific

767
00:41:49,119 --> 00:41:53,320
person in your phone that is able to walk you

768
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,800
through situations like is there is there coaching for guys

769
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:56,920
at your level?

770
00:41:57,159 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: I mean I haven't had what you would define as

771
00:42:00,119 --> 00:42:03,440
coaching in that sense in a very long time for

772
00:42:03,519 --> 00:42:07,360
poker like strategy related stuff. But I am very fortunate

773
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:08,719
that I have a lot of friends that I can

774
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,760
bounce ideas off of, and some people are more skilled

775
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,360
a you know, certain things than others. So like Steven

776
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,559
Chidwick is a close friend and I can, you know,

777
00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:21,719
bounce ideas off of him, although I actually don't really

778
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,719
talk to him as much about strategy because I mean,

779
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,519
at this point you can, for myself or any other

780
00:42:29,559 --> 00:42:32,519
pro you can ask other people about strategy questions, and

781
00:42:32,599 --> 00:42:35,840
that's totally valid. But when you have, you know, the

782
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,440
solver readily available, you can plug it in and then

783
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,920
anything that someone else is going to tell you, unless

784
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,719
you're asking like a specific thing about a specific player,

785
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,039
like how would you maybe proceed in the spot against

786
00:42:47,039 --> 00:42:48,880
this guy based on what you know? What do you

787
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,960
think his assumptions might be? That's a little bit more

788
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,679
granular and different. Barring that nuance you can look at

789
00:42:55,679 --> 00:42:58,480
the output and just sort of understand or you know,

790
00:42:58,639 --> 00:43:02,239
no locket or whatver, and just be like, Okay, this

791
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,880
is kind of what is presenting here. How do I

792
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:10,440
think that might have shifted? But anyway, point being, I'm

793
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,760
just very fortunate and grateful to have a lot of

794
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,400
friends in the space, and if I need help or

795
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,679
want clarity about something, I can just ask them, and

796
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:20,840
you know, I would hope they would feel the same

797
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,159
willingness to do that with me if so desired.

798
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 2: So when you sort of transpose yourself to like this

799
00:43:29,639 --> 00:43:32,880
situation where you were coaching Landon, what was it that

800
00:43:33,679 --> 00:43:35,960
he needed or perhaps other students that you've had, what

801
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,039
do what do students need if you coach them?

802
00:43:38,519 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: That would.

803
00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 2: Make coaching necessary as opposed to the approach you just

804
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,920
mentioned where you can note lock something, We're going to

805
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,199
run through some solvers and you know, feel satisfied to

806
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,119
start to keep moving forward.

807
00:43:53,119 --> 00:43:55,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean with Landon, it was a bit different

808
00:43:55,199 --> 00:43:58,519
because he was like around the time that I would

809
00:43:58,519 --> 00:44:00,639
have been I guess you could say coaching, although it

810
00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:03,119
was never really like a traditional arrangement. We were friends

811
00:44:03,199 --> 00:44:06,760
already and he was transitioning from cash games to tournaments,

812
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,559
So I was mostly just kind of sharing tournament ideas.

813
00:44:10,039 --> 00:44:13,920
But to your question about like what is coaching offer someone,

814
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,119
I think a lot of times it's really just pinpointing

815
00:44:17,159 --> 00:44:20,039
the aspects of their thought process or understanding that they

816
00:44:20,159 --> 00:44:25,440
themselves cannot identify, either through just the experience they have

817
00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:28,360
in the game, or sometimes we don't necessarily want to

818
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:33,000
look at at certain things. And I think ideally one

819
00:44:33,199 --> 00:44:36,960
plays poker and kind of a holistic fashion where you

820
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,559
don't really want to ignore anything that's going on when

821
00:44:41,559 --> 00:44:43,320
you're at the table or that you're thinking about, like

822
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,719
it all kind of ties in together. I think this

823
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,960
is probably part of like a broader I guess you

824
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,840
could call it chem set life philosophy. But separation is

825
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,519
kind of just an illusion, you know, we create separation

826
00:44:54,679 --> 00:44:58,519
between things, but there's just like reality is one thing,

827
00:44:58,679 --> 00:45:03,159
like you are your experience, So just figuring out where

828
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,880
you might be miscalibrated or out of alignment or what

829
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,360
have you outside of the table, and then of course

830
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,679
strategically as well. Again I just feel very I guess

831
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,760
gifted in that sense. I strategy just kind of made

832
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,039
sense to me not to be pompous or whatever. But

833
00:45:20,159 --> 00:45:22,800
it just it just it felt like once I got

834
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,320
a grasp on it, I was like, oh yeah, balance, Okay,

835
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,480
I don't know, just yeah, a lot of it made sense,

836
00:45:30,519 --> 00:45:33,039
and I I was pleased to see that some of

837
00:45:33,079 --> 00:45:37,480
the early ideas I had were sort of validated by solvers,

838
00:45:37,519 --> 00:45:40,239
and then some were up ended as well, Like some

839
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:41,599
things I just did not get correct.

840
00:45:41,639 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 3: So yeah, do you think there's there's traps in people

841
00:45:47,519 --> 00:45:51,280
studying and using solvers and perhaps not using them the

842
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,000
right way and leading them down like the wrong path,

843
00:45:54,199 --> 00:45:56,760
or perhaps down a path where they might not improve

844
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:58,360
as much because they focus on the wrong things.

845
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,039
Speaker 1: Definitely, And I think that's one of the traps I

846
00:46:01,119 --> 00:46:06,239
fell into, was just feeling as if these outputs are

847
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:12,039
like gospel. I mean, that's not a helpful approach because well,

848
00:46:12,119 --> 00:46:15,039
just ignores the reality of how they were created and

849
00:46:15,119 --> 00:46:18,039
how they can shift. So I think if one is

850
00:46:18,039 --> 00:46:21,960
too rigid, that's a problem because eventually you're going to

851
00:46:22,039 --> 00:46:24,960
encounter a spot where you almost feel like this sort

852
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,920
of egoic sense of entitlement, Hey I should have won

853
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,159
this or you should have folded that hand, and it's

854
00:46:30,199 --> 00:46:33,280
just like hey, bro, like that's reality. And you went

855
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,000
up against it and you didn't you couldn't accept it,

856
00:46:36,039 --> 00:46:38,880
and then you know, you got crushed. So I think

857
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,760
that's one thing that can cause issues. Other than that,

858
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,360
I don't know, you know, it's an interesting question, like

859
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,199
take someone like Jesse, who I think's been kind of

860
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,800
open about the fact that he doesn't use or value solvers.

861
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,440
You know, would him taking the time to do something

862
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,280
that he's not interested in help him. I'm inclined to

863
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:02,039
think no, even if the data or knowledge is valuable.

864
00:47:02,039 --> 00:47:04,119
I just think there's many different ways to do things.

865
00:47:04,599 --> 00:47:07,119
And I kind of go back to my time playing online.

866
00:47:07,559 --> 00:47:09,599
I had used a hot at times, like I heads

867
00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:13,280
a display that shows you player stats and whatnot, and

868
00:47:13,639 --> 00:47:16,039
basically all of my peers were using it, and there

869
00:47:16,039 --> 00:47:17,440
was a time where I just felt like it was

870
00:47:18,639 --> 00:47:20,599
too much visual noise and it was taking me out

871
00:47:20,599 --> 00:47:24,039
of the moment. And maybe that's like kind of a

872
00:47:24,039 --> 00:47:27,440
comparable example where you know, sometimes less is more.

873
00:47:29,039 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 2: Correct me if I'm wrong on this, But when I

874
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:36,920
listen to podcasts with successful individuals, whether it's sports or poker,

875
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:43,920
oftentimes when people describe their experiences, there's a certain element

876
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:49,400
missing where they are privileged by the fact that they

877
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,880
were born with a certain talent, you know, running fast, swimming, tennis,

878
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,119
or in your case, having the mind to apply yourself

879
00:47:57,559 --> 00:48:01,119
well in strategy games and in poker. How big of

880
00:48:01,159 --> 00:48:05,320
a factor is is sort of what you were born

881
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,480
with in the in the in the context of your success.

882
00:48:11,159 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 1: Uh wow, tough to say. So my father was an engineer.

883
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:19,079
I actually just recently learned that. My mom told me

884
00:48:19,119 --> 00:48:21,960
she went to college for three year studying psychology and

885
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:23,880
thought she would have done better in that field than

886
00:48:24,679 --> 00:48:26,960
where she ended up in nursing, because it's a more

887
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,559
like mental thing. And I was like, oh, wow, that's

888
00:48:29,639 --> 00:48:32,360
really interesting. It's like, do you understand that that's a

889
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,840
bit ironic because I pursued a mental activity and I've

890
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,960
done pretty well at it, which you know, she didn't

891
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:39,960
really catch that either until I brought it up. But

892
00:48:41,039 --> 00:48:43,639
it is likely at the very least that, you know,

893
00:48:43,679 --> 00:48:48,440
those traits that my parents had were sort of disseminated

894
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:53,960
by osmosis. But there are certain things, and I mean,

895
00:48:54,119 --> 00:48:55,480
I don't know, it depends how do you want to

896
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,519
go with this, Like is it retrocousal? Like I was

897
00:48:57,519 --> 00:48:59,199
always sort of meant to be a poker player, and

898
00:48:59,199 --> 00:49:02,079
I was drawn to these activities by virtue of that.

899
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,320
But it was extremely interested in all kinds of games

900
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,239
and memory in particular as a kid. And obviously that's

901
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,639
helpful in poker, not just because it, you know, helps

902
00:49:14,079 --> 00:49:17,360
recall strategies, but you know, hand histries, you played against people,

903
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:22,159
and all kinds of stuff. So there are definitely things

904
00:49:22,199 --> 00:49:23,800
that I do think I was sort of I guess

905
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,760
you could say, genetically predisposed or environmentally predisposed to that

906
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,360
helped with poker. And there are certain things where I

907
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,079
did sort of have to like get up and get

908
00:49:35,079 --> 00:49:37,599
after it in a sense that also helped.

909
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:44,119
Speaker 2: So you when you like are first learning about solvers,

910
00:49:44,159 --> 00:49:47,519
when the solver era sort of started and you got

911
00:49:47,519 --> 00:49:49,199
access to to use one.

912
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: What did that look like? Was it exploratory?

913
00:49:52,199 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 2: Was it someone who you know got into that before

914
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,239
you teaching you how to use them? And did that

915
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,760
then lead to sort of the way I see it,

916
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:01,719
maybe back in the day when you guys used to

917
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,920
play online was like NonStop, round the clock multi tabling

918
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,159
stuff like that. Was it sort of that? But then

919
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,880
in the solver world give some insights into when that

920
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:13,360
era sort of started coming along.

921
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: It's kind of funny. So yeah, I did have friends

922
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,000
who got into them before me, and they were pretty

923
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,559
pumped about it, and I was intrigued. I remember the

924
00:50:22,599 --> 00:50:26,079
first solver that I became familiar with was Poker Snowy.

925
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,119
I don't think it was a CFR based kind of

926
00:50:30,159 --> 00:50:33,320
factual regret minimization program. It was it was some sort

927
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,679
of algorithm that created solutions in its own way. Maybe

928
00:50:36,679 --> 00:50:39,119
it was a version of CFR, but I thought it

929
00:50:39,159 --> 00:50:42,360
was interesting how it suggested playing preflop with different hands.

930
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,199
And then soon after that, like more like the solvers

931
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,079
that are kind of still around to this day, were

932
00:50:48,119 --> 00:50:52,400
commonly used by you know, various pros came around, and

933
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,159
at that point I was on a pretty big upswing

934
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:59,360
and was being stubborn and I just wasn't really that interested.

935
00:51:00,639 --> 00:51:03,199
It also didn't help that one of my friends should

936
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,599
be an early version where there was clearly some bug

937
00:51:06,159 --> 00:51:08,480
and the solow was just saying to fold the nut straight.

938
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:10,400
I was just like, yeah, I don't need this, like

939
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,599
I'm doing well right now. So that would have been

940
00:51:13,639 --> 00:51:17,800
like around twenty sixteen, and I sort of prolonged my

941
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,719
exposure to them. I also had a lot of other

942
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,320
life stuff going on around this time. It was unclear

943
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,119
to me if I was going to stick with poker.

944
00:51:25,519 --> 00:51:28,960
I got on a very big down swing, and yeah,

945
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,159
I was just sort of going through some growing pains

946
00:51:31,199 --> 00:51:35,719
in my life generally speaking. And then around twenty nineteen

947
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,480
I was like, Okay, I should pursue this. This is valuable,

948
00:51:40,199 --> 00:51:43,480
and I did. And then when COVID hit, I really

949
00:51:43,519 --> 00:51:46,159
got deeper into it. And that was one of the

950
00:51:46,159 --> 00:51:48,960
ways that Land and I bonded because he was using

951
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,039
these tools a lot as sort of part of the

952
00:51:51,039 --> 00:51:52,920
younger generation that grew up with them or grew up

953
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,840
in poker with them, you know, sort of eventually came

954
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:57,239
to value them, and then I went too far the

955
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,239
other way. And then, you know, I speak from experience

956
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,920
when I say feeling that you know these are our

957
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:07,320
gospel type truths or the downsides of that rigidity. Those

958
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,239
are all firsthand experiences that I lived and had to

959
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,679
come to terms with, because when you don't know that

960
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:15,719
they exist, and you come from an era like I did,

961
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,639
where you can ruminate about a hand for a while

962
00:52:19,039 --> 00:52:22,199
and often come to the sort of crux of the decision,

963
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:23,960
it's like, well, if he would have done this with

964
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,480
as eight, then it's probably you know, a good play,

965
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,280
and if not, then it's a bad play. And the

966
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,280
solvers just give you that right away. So the incredible

967
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:36,159
power that they contained within that ability to process data

968
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,639
and output solutions, I was like, Wow, this is really cool,

969
00:52:40,119 --> 00:52:44,599
and that really got me excited about exploring them very deeply.

970
00:52:45,079 --> 00:52:46,679
And then yeah, I just went too far with it,

971
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:48,960
which I've probably done with many things in my life.

972
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,159
And then I you know, found a middle ground and

973
00:52:52,199 --> 00:52:54,719
now I feel that, you know, like with most things,

974
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:56,559
just finding a balance is healthy.

975
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 2: For televised poker, we're in a very weird situation where

976
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,679
if it's the cash game, it's organized by a person

977
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,559
and he brings his friends if the stakes are high enough,

978
00:53:11,079 --> 00:53:14,960
and that type of entertainment will get tens of thousands

979
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:19,119
of people watching in real time, myself included, because of

980
00:53:19,119 --> 00:53:22,880
the unpredictable nature of the characters and the amount of

981
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,320
money that's on the table and you know, all the

982
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,159
little sort of side randomness and factors and drinking and

983
00:53:29,199 --> 00:53:33,239
whatnot that's happening at the table. And then the contrast

984
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,719
to that would be the you know, as some of

985
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,639
people have called it the math contest, you know PGD

986
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:42,239
event final tables where on day one, and we've shown

987
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,559
this on stream also on day one, it is casual,

988
00:53:44,639 --> 00:53:47,360
it is laid back, people are joking, having fun, and

989
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:52,079
then when the final table starts, it's quiet and obviously

990
00:53:52,679 --> 00:53:55,719
there's lots of thinking happening, but it is not outwardly.

991
00:53:56,039 --> 00:54:01,280
It is inwardly and it becomes very mechanical. Is this

992
00:54:01,519 --> 00:54:05,559
just how poker is now? Where the cash games give

993
00:54:05,639 --> 00:54:08,599
us a chance to watch peel back to curtain on

994
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,360
what that sort of high stakes world is like. And

995
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:15,159
then on the contrary, we have the tournament universe, where

996
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:20,480
the focus is much more so on the who's best

997
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,840
prepared for the situation. And then of course the amount

998
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,119
of money at stake varies from event to events. But

999
00:54:27,039 --> 00:54:29,000
that contrast could not be any bigger.

1000
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 1: Right now now, I completely agree. I'm glad you brought

1001
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:35,079
it up, because I've actually thought about this a lot.

1002
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,880
I think the main thing that's going on there is

1003
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,400
in cash games, in order to get a seat and

1004
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,320
be in that juicy game, you have to be entertaining,

1005
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,840
and in poker tournaments there's really no incentive to be entertaining,

1006
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,360
you're probably going to decrease your win rate. If anything.

1007
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,039
I do like to try. I mean not when I'm

1008
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:56,440
like in hands, I'm quite stoic and focused on the

1009
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,039
task at hand, But in general I like to be

1010
00:54:59,199 --> 00:55:01,239
social and and just have a good time at the table,

1011
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:05,679
you know, So maybe that's entertaining. It's probably not to

1012
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,800
the same extent, especially when juxtaposed with the fact that

1013
00:55:09,119 --> 00:55:11,480
during hands I am more focused then players would be

1014
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,000
in a cash game. It's just a more competitive environment.

1015
00:55:14,519 --> 00:55:17,599
And if that were to shift in some way, if

1016
00:55:18,599 --> 00:55:22,800
poker were to, you know, have more exposure or have

1017
00:55:23,519 --> 00:55:26,480
higher end sponsors or what have you, you know, I

1018
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:30,519
would be first in line to be happy to Like basically,

1019
00:55:30,519 --> 00:55:33,159
if the fans were to vote for who they really

1020
00:55:33,199 --> 00:55:35,880
wanted to see, then you'd have a lot more incentive

1021
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,440
and there was benefit to being there outside of just

1022
00:55:39,599 --> 00:55:42,360
you know, playing the tournament. Is this making sense kind

1023
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:43,480
of thinking about it?

1024
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 2: It's kind of It's kind of like the chicken or

1025
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,480
the egg, right, because you have to make it entertaining

1026
00:55:48,519 --> 00:55:50,039
first before sponsors are interested.

1027
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 1: That's fair. I don't know how much me shifting the

1028
00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:58,880
way I may it would have to be like a

1029
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,079
collective effort of course. Yeah, yeah, I think.

1030
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 2: And and by the way, I'm not saying that you

1031
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:05,719
guys should do this, Oh no, I totally understand. I'm

1032
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,119
just saying that, like as a pivot point, cash games

1033
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,400
do provide those opportunities because the environment is so different.

1034
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it absolutely is. I think that there's ways to

1035
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,800
structure tournaments that if you were to set it up

1036
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:23,599
solely as a product to be entertaining, you could handpick

1037
00:56:23,599 --> 00:56:25,840
the field. I mean basically like a TV show. And

1038
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,679
I think if you go back to the poker boom,

1039
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,519
those tournaments were immensely entertaining. And I think, you know,

1040
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:34,719
probably for most people that came up in that era,

1041
00:56:35,039 --> 00:56:37,039
if you ask them what the most entertaining poker content

1042
00:56:37,119 --> 00:56:40,239
they've ever seen, they're gonna say WSOP in the early

1043
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,880
two thousands, high sakes poker, all the stuff that came

1044
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:44,960
out around that time, well, high stakes poker was a

1045
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,679
cash game. But point being, I don't think tournaments are

1046
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:52,639
inherently uninteresting. I just think that they the culture has

1047
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:58,199
evolved to favor the more competitive archetype, and cash games

1048
00:56:58,199 --> 00:57:02,800
have not evolved in that way. Is almost a contrary exactly.

1049
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 2: It's almost like if you become good at cash games,

1050
00:57:05,639 --> 00:57:06,880
you don't have any games to play.

1051
00:57:07,679 --> 00:57:11,159
Speaker 1: Well, that's not entirely true, because there are definitely some

1052
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:15,639
players in any lineup that you could find where you know,

1053
00:57:15,639 --> 00:57:18,800
they're very talented players. They just happen to have sort

1054
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:22,079
of you know, met the needs essentially of the players

1055
00:57:22,119 --> 00:57:26,119
that are happy to play those games. And yeah, I

1056
00:57:26,159 --> 00:57:27,519
mean again, it's just a trade off, you know. It's

1057
00:57:27,519 --> 00:57:31,000
just a different way to approach being a professional. Nothing

1058
00:57:31,079 --> 00:57:32,800
right or wrong about it, it's just different.

1059
00:57:34,519 --> 00:57:38,559
Speaker 2: Do you feel as though the high stake tournament community

1060
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:44,960
has a responsibility towards non professionals to create an environment

1061
00:57:45,119 --> 00:57:48,000
that is inviting for them to come and play.

1062
00:57:48,159 --> 00:57:51,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, to an extent, definitely. Some people might say no

1063
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,280
because they're like, well, they can just not play. But

1064
00:57:53,599 --> 00:57:55,360
I think got short sighted and I think it kind

1065
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:57,719
of misses the mark. I mean, at the end of

1066
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:02,840
the day, if enough people stop playing tournaments, tournaments will die.

1067
00:58:03,039 --> 00:58:07,199
And there's just every reason to be welcoming and inviting

1068
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,440
to all players, but especially the ones that are just

1069
00:58:09,519 --> 00:58:11,119
kind of there to have a good time. I mean,

1070
00:58:11,119 --> 00:58:13,039
if you're a pro, you clearly want that player in

1071
00:58:13,039 --> 00:58:17,719
the field. So I don't like the I'm not sure

1072
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:20,519
even to what extent this is reality versus just sort

1073
00:58:20,519 --> 00:58:24,840
of image. Imagine it's in my mind and fabricated. But

1074
00:58:25,639 --> 00:58:28,159
like I used to play a lot of cash games

1075
00:58:28,199 --> 00:58:30,679
in Vegas. When the game's got more privatized, I just

1076
00:58:30,679 --> 00:58:32,599
didn't really want to deal with the schmoozing and the

1077
00:58:32,639 --> 00:58:35,679
politics and whatever. I think it's fair to not want

1078
00:58:35,719 --> 00:58:39,079
to do that, but to just be like a reasonable person,

1079
00:58:39,159 --> 00:58:42,320
just be nice to people that turn up to play cards. Well,

1080
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,239
I mean sure, I think that's there's every reason to

1081
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:46,599
do that. Does that make sense?

1082
00:58:46,679 --> 00:58:50,559
Speaker 2: Yeah? No. And I also think that we can't understate,

1083
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:53,760
for those who've never been to the Pogogo studio how

1084
00:58:54,199 --> 00:58:57,760
laid back, in casual that atmosphere actually is. That's true, yeah,

1085
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:01,639
which which is like, again, as we talk about contrast,

1086
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:06,719
a big contrast with the politicking of high stakes cash.

1087
00:59:06,119 --> 00:59:07,679
Speaker 1: And also a big contrast with the way that the

1088
00:59:07,679 --> 00:59:10,360
final tables look when it's like, okay, well you've played

1089
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:13,360
now for twelve hours on day one or whatever, and

1090
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,360
then you're at the final table vying for you know,

1091
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,880
the real money. So this is a very jovial atmosphere

1092
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:21,800
on the first day, in the first I would say,

1093
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:23,239
the first half of the first day, and it gets

1094
00:59:23,239 --> 00:59:26,400
progressively more serious, but it's really always just fun. And

1095
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:30,280
that's one of the reasons I love the new stream format,

1096
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,159
the reality TV style format. Yeah, I think it's fantastic.

1097
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,639
Speaker 2: Shout out to Donnie for that and Antonio for making

1098
00:59:36,639 --> 00:59:36,960
it happen.

1099
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:37,559
Speaker 1: Any love that.

1100
00:59:40,159 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 2: It's been a fun insight and it attracts the hardcore

1101
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:45,840
fans who just want to see a little more. And

1102
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,639
it has that reality TV element to it, which was yeah, funny.

1103
00:59:48,679 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 1: It's not polished at all, and I get that that's

1104
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,199
not going to create the next poker boom, but I

1105
00:59:53,239 --> 00:59:57,039
do feel that something that kind of like gets under

1106
00:59:57,079 --> 01:00:00,239
the hood a little bit more like Again, I just

1107
01:00:00,239 --> 01:00:04,880
look back at those early WSOP episodes and effectively was

1108
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,199
a reality TV show and it created a pop culture phenomena.

1109
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:09,480
Right now, there was other things going on, the boom

1110
01:00:09,519 --> 01:00:14,079
of online poker, moneymaker himself being such an enigma and winning. Yeah,

1111
01:00:14,119 --> 01:00:16,960
there was other factors, but I do think that style

1112
01:00:17,039 --> 01:00:22,199
of content, the way it was packaged and created, it

1113
01:00:22,239 --> 01:00:23,639
also helped. With the guy that put it together had

1114
01:00:23,719 --> 01:00:27,519
nine Emmys so you know that's not gonna hurt, but yeah,

1115
01:00:27,519 --> 01:00:31,079
there's just a lot going on there that's, you know,

1116
01:00:31,239 --> 01:00:33,280
just very different than what we have now.

1117
01:00:34,239 --> 01:00:37,159
Speaker 2: Your poker world, from your perspective that you sort of

1118
01:00:37,199 --> 01:00:40,800
operate within, do you feel as though that has gotten smaller?

1119
01:00:41,039 --> 01:00:42,880
Like you play at the studio, you have your group

1120
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,559
of friends you talk to. Do you still venture out,

1121
01:00:45,639 --> 01:00:48,159
do you still like meet new people, go to new places?

1122
01:00:48,559 --> 01:00:50,400
And how important do you think that is or could

1123
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:52,800
be in order for you to have a good understanding

1124
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,280
of where the poker world as a whole is currently

1125
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:55,760
sitting at.

1126
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,119
Speaker 1: It's a good question I would like to think. I mean,

1127
01:00:59,199 --> 01:01:01,880
you know, again, always want to think they have clarity

1128
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:03,519
about things, but I would like to think I have

1129
01:01:03,519 --> 01:01:05,679
a pretty decent understanding of the way that poker is

1130
01:01:05,679 --> 01:01:09,400
seen in the wider world. I am pretty social in

1131
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,440
my life generally, and I like talking to people about things.

1132
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:16,639
When I run into people who are familiar with poker,

1133
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,800
it is very common that they either know it from

1134
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:24,840
the boom or they follow someone on Instagram that is

1135
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:28,119
like a larger name. Occasionally it'll be like, you know,

1136
01:01:28,159 --> 01:01:32,639
like they've seen Wolfgang Shorts on YouTube or yeah, just

1137
01:01:32,639 --> 01:01:36,159
a few people on Instagram that you know, just have

1138
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,960
larger audiences that you know, may never step foot in

1139
01:01:40,199 --> 01:01:41,199
a tournament environment.

1140
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 2: Do you have a good sense of where poker is

1141
01:01:43,559 --> 01:01:46,000
right now? Because people love to love to throw these

1142
01:01:46,119 --> 01:01:47,960
things at are like, oh this is good for poker,

1143
01:01:48,079 --> 01:01:50,760
or oh this if this thing happens, well that's going

1144
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:54,079
to be a game changer. But instead, I think we

1145
01:01:54,159 --> 01:01:58,000
often forget to take a step back and appreciate how

1146
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:03,000
poker is sort of intertwined and across all starsian media platforms,

1147
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:05,800
and if people get exposed to it much more than

1148
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:09,360
they've ever been, there's surely a level of saturation when

1149
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,239
it comes to the amount of content that's available, which

1150
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:16,559
perhaps fragments attention a little bit. But ultimately for you

1151
01:02:16,559 --> 01:02:19,079
as a player, I wonder how you perceive that.

1152
01:02:20,599 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that poker obviously it's gone through a lot.

1153
01:02:25,599 --> 01:02:27,559
I still feel to some extent that we're living in

1154
01:02:27,599 --> 01:02:30,000
the shadows of Black Friday. I don't think we've fully

1155
01:02:30,039 --> 01:02:33,320
recovered from that. And that's just because the boom was

1156
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:35,920
such a prolific era where we just don't have that

1157
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,159
same kind of atmosphere, not in like a you know, hey,

1158
01:02:39,159 --> 01:02:41,159
you're at this table having a good time atmosphere, I mean,

1159
01:02:41,159 --> 01:02:43,119
like a sort of meta atmosphere for the way the

1160
01:02:43,159 --> 01:02:45,920
game is. I would love to see poker be at

1161
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:48,440
the level of golfer tennis. I don't see why it

1162
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:51,079
can't be. To be honest with you, I have some

1163
01:02:51,199 --> 01:02:55,920
ideas of what necessary shifts would be. In some sense,

1164
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:58,079
it would be the style of content that Donnie is

1165
01:02:58,119 --> 01:03:01,079
pioneering there. But yeah, I don't I clearly don't have

1166
01:03:01,119 --> 01:03:01,800
all the answers.

1167
01:03:02,199 --> 01:03:04,559
Speaker 2: Well, what do you what do you if you mentioned

1168
01:03:04,559 --> 01:03:07,119
the golf, for example, or other sports, what do you

1169
01:03:07,199 --> 01:03:11,239
miss in poker that those sports have? Well?

1170
01:03:11,239 --> 01:03:13,639
Speaker 1: I do think luxury sponsors is one, like if you

1171
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:16,840
cater to and poker already does cater to higher net

1172
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:19,440
worth individuals, So to me, it's kind of a mismatch, Like,

1173
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,559
why is that not happening? Well, it's because there's not

1174
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:26,519
enough viewers to justify the sponsors giving money to the hosts, right.

1175
01:03:26,599 --> 01:03:30,559
The platform is hosting content, So yeah, I mean there's

1176
01:03:30,679 --> 01:03:34,320
there's certainly reasons for that. What they are exactly, you know,

1177
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:36,599
I can't say I'm not I'm not in that role,

1178
01:03:36,719 --> 01:03:40,639
but I also think i'm less sure about this, and

1179
01:03:40,679 --> 01:03:42,840
this would you know, relate to what you're talking about

1180
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:50,239
with tournaments especially, But I do feel that poker, probably

1181
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:57,119
for its growth, is slightly held back by being associated

1182
01:03:57,159 --> 01:04:01,920
with gambling. It is basically gambling to a very large extent,

1183
01:04:02,519 --> 01:04:05,400
but it also has a distinctly different quality, which is

1184
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:08,480
that it's a mind sport. In my opinion, I don't know,

1185
01:04:08,519 --> 01:04:11,239
I could imagine a world in which poker sort of

1186
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:16,519
like again extricates itself from gambling, and there'd be pros

1187
01:04:16,519 --> 01:04:18,360
and concept there's going to be trade offs to anything,

1188
01:04:19,519 --> 01:04:23,320
but yeah, I feel that could potentially be a you know,

1189
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:25,360
positive thing for the growth of the game.

1190
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:29,119
Speaker 2: Do you think we should be allowed to view poker

1191
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:32,960
as entertainment even though it's a zero sum game, which

1192
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:35,480
in a way can sort of be a contrast to

1193
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:41,119
the entertainment side because there's also losers in poker, which

1194
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:43,719
you know, in golf, if you're a loser, you're still

1195
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,280
on the tour, you're still getting paid, and in poker

1196
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:48,719
people show up and put their own money down, which

1197
01:04:49,079 --> 01:04:51,280
you know, makes it a different kind of entertainment and

1198
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:52,719
almost more like reality TV.

1199
01:04:53,599 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 1: Well, not only do I think that it should like

1200
01:04:58,199 --> 01:05:00,159
people can't like should be able to view it that way.

1201
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:02,039
I think that's actually the best way to view it,

1202
01:05:02,039 --> 01:05:06,079
because people play poker for enjoyment primarily, so I don't

1203
01:05:06,079 --> 01:05:09,000
see any reason why watching it shouldn't be enjoyable, just

1204
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:11,599
in the same way that somebody plays golf for fun

1205
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:14,199
watches golf for fun. So I think it's actually just

1206
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:18,719
much healthier if it's you know, experienced in that way.

1207
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:20,519
That being said, if we just sort of go back

1208
01:05:20,559 --> 01:05:22,800
to the obvious follow up question, which is like, well,

1209
01:05:23,039 --> 01:05:27,039
why are tournament's not enjoyable to watch? I enjoy watching them,

1210
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:30,159
but I understand that they don't resonate with a wider audience.

1211
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:33,000
I think some of that is well, I mean, some

1212
01:05:33,039 --> 01:05:34,480
of it's based on the fact that, you know, the

1213
01:05:34,519 --> 01:05:37,400
format of streams. They're long, and like people that aren't

1214
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,000
hardcore fans, they can't sit down and watch streams for

1215
01:05:40,039 --> 01:05:42,199
that long. So yeah, I don't know. Again, I don't

1216
01:05:42,199 --> 01:05:44,239
have all the answers, but I've thought about these things

1217
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:48,360
because I love poker. I think it's immensely fascinating. I

1218
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:50,360
think it would be cool if more people were aware

1219
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:52,199
of it, whether or not they ever play a hand,

1220
01:05:52,679 --> 01:05:54,639
just being aware of it, I think could be cool.

1221
01:05:54,719 --> 01:05:59,280
I think there's implications for education and learning critical thinking

1222
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:02,480
and navigate uncertainty that poker offers. I know there was

1223
01:06:02,519 --> 01:06:06,079
one guy I researched this a while ago, many years,

1224
01:06:06,079 --> 01:06:09,079
but there was a Harvard law professor who used poker

1225
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:12,440
as a means to sort of help his students understand

1226
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:15,119
decision making. I thought that was super cool, and there's

1227
01:06:15,119 --> 01:06:20,039
probably more avenues for which that could be effective or beneficial.

1228
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:23,159
But again, I feel it's you know, when poker has

1229
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:27,079
a close association with gambling, which again, it obviously has

1230
01:06:27,079 --> 01:06:30,840
a component of gambling, but I think it's somewhat intellectually

1231
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:34,920
dishonest to assert that it's the same as gambling in

1232
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:38,400
the sense that like Blacktacker roulettea craps would be clearly

1233
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,639
it's different. In my opinion, I would presume you agree

1234
01:06:41,639 --> 01:06:42,679
with that, but yeah, yeah, of course.

1235
01:06:42,719 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 2: And I also think that we shouldn't forget to state

1236
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:49,920
that like the Marquee events year round draw a massive

1237
01:06:50,199 --> 01:06:53,599
viewership totally. It is just that, you know, to use

1238
01:06:53,719 --> 01:06:57,519
other sports as an example, the weekly game that's being

1239
01:06:57,519 --> 01:07:02,280
streamed doesn't draw this same way the the you know,

1240
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:04,480
the Masters you know, as if you want to use

1241
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:06,800
a golf analogy will draw, which also makes sense that

1242
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:09,880
there's there's sort of a tail off. But the thing

1243
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:13,360
that I find most fascinating is the and we went

1244
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:17,039
into this already, but the higher floor for a cash

1245
01:07:17,039 --> 01:07:19,079
game versus a tournament. And I think that's the biggest

1246
01:07:19,079 --> 01:07:22,119
difference that we're seeing in recent years, where I want

1247
01:07:22,119 --> 01:07:27,000
to say, prior to the YouTube era, the tournaments were

1248
01:07:27,039 --> 01:07:29,840
way more featured and way more popular, and then in

1249
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:33,480
the YouTube era, something has shifted to where cash games

1250
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:38,000
by nature attract personalities within the game that make it

1251
01:07:38,079 --> 01:07:42,119
super fun to consume because the narrative doesn't change overnight,

1252
01:07:42,159 --> 01:07:45,079
it stays the same within the boundaries of that lineup,

1253
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:47,599
as opposed to the elimination factor of the tournament. So

1254
01:07:47,599 --> 01:07:50,119
if you're watching because you're a fan of er Liechtenberger

1255
01:07:50,159 --> 01:07:52,840
and he busts in sixth place, then maybe you're tuned

1256
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:53,440
out after that.

1257
01:07:53,599 --> 01:07:58,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's fair. I think that one thing cash

1258
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:01,760
games really do offer in that sense, you know, when

1259
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:04,440
a game is being streamed, cash games move a lot faster,

1260
01:08:04,519 --> 01:08:09,519
there's less downtime. I think that's where, again, as like

1261
01:08:10,039 --> 01:08:13,440
a poker nerd who in the in like the early

1262
01:08:13,559 --> 01:08:15,679
sort of boom era, I was like, Hi, I wonder

1263
01:08:15,679 --> 01:08:17,720
what these guys would do with like Jack ten offsuit

1264
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:20,000
in the spot or whatever. The stream is great, you

1265
01:08:20,039 --> 01:08:22,439
get to see all that, but I'm not sure that

1266
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:26,239
the casual viewer is going to resonate in the same

1267
01:08:26,359 --> 01:08:29,680
sense that you know, someone who's a diehard would be.

1268
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:34,079
So I think that the stream, I would guess streaming

1269
01:08:34,199 --> 01:08:38,239
is less favorable for tournament views as a result of that.

1270
01:08:38,239 --> 01:08:41,279
That downtime is I think probably why people, you know,

1271
01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:44,920
they fairly point out like, hey, we're not interested in this,

1272
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:47,359
Like I mean, you see in the comment sections, right,

1273
01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:49,840
people are just what was the term you said? Is

1274
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:50,840
a math contest? Right?

1275
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 2: Math contest?

1276
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:51,720
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1277
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:55,760
Speaker 2: By the way, I think I think Alex Foxon used

1278
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:58,039
the term first. So I want to give credit, but

1279
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:00,680
you know, it's not in a negative sense because it

1280
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:02,640
just means that people are, you know, well prepared for

1281
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:03,399
the occasion.

1282
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:03,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1283
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:06,079
Speaker 2: Sure, but it's also you need to have a certain

1284
01:09:06,199 --> 01:09:09,279
level of poker understanding to get to get something out

1285
01:09:09,319 --> 01:09:09,520
of that.

1286
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:12,119
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that.

1287
01:09:12,239 --> 01:09:14,199
Speaker 2: After more than fifteen years in the game for me

1288
01:09:14,279 --> 01:09:17,239
myself and having done tons of commentary. I do find

1289
01:09:17,239 --> 01:09:21,199
those very fun and interesting, but they become more fun

1290
01:09:21,199 --> 01:09:24,720
and interesting when that environment also has a certain level

1291
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:27,640
of personality to it. So you guys could be playing

1292
01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:30,760
exactly the same hands, the same exact way, and then

1293
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:34,800
if you add a Jeremy Becker, who is you know,

1294
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:37,039
making a bit of a show or Nigranu is there

1295
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:39,640
just a name to people that come to mind right away,

1296
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:43,000
that same style of play becomes more fun to watch.

1297
01:09:43,359 --> 01:09:46,640
Speaker 1: I totally agree, and I do think that I would

1298
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:51,079
say most of the best players in the studio are

1299
01:09:51,239 --> 01:09:58,079
quite entertaining, super entertaining, like Foxen's hilarious Soveral absolutely uproariously hilarious,

1300
01:09:58,319 --> 01:10:02,640
Winter's hilarious Becker. Obviously, I mean, yeah, there's many people

1301
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:04,880
that are like, very funny and have a lot of personality,

1302
01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:08,520
but when you have a stream that's quite long, those

1303
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:11,920
moments and also, I mean, in fairness, I don't know

1304
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,439
that the stream is being put on to capture those

1305
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:18,880
entertaining moments as like, I mean, you'd know better than me,

1306
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:22,119
but it doesn't feel to me like the desire of

1307
01:10:22,159 --> 01:10:25,039
those PGT final tables is to capture the entertaining moments.

1308
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,119
I'm sure that it's nice when they happen, but the

1309
01:10:28,159 --> 01:10:31,600
specific goal is not like, hey, let's encourage I mean,

1310
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:33,520
guess it's not really much you could do to encourage them,

1311
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:37,720
but to capture or highlight them. I think it is

1312
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:41,840
more intriguing for probably most of the people that are

1313
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:43,840
watching tournaments to begin with, and it is the chicken

1314
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:45,800
in the egg, right, we're back there. They probably more

1315
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:49,319
so want to see the sick call or the big

1316
01:10:49,319 --> 01:10:50,239
bluff or whatever.

1317
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that the funny thing that ties

1318
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:58,359
into what you're saying is the fact that fun moments

1319
01:10:58,399 --> 01:11:02,520
happen on every stream, but there's not the like you

1320
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:05,439
can't plan for them, and they're they're organic, which is

1321
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:08,239
why the short short form version of it will go

1322
01:11:08,359 --> 01:11:11,399
viral because that's like funny, and that's like, yeah, compelling,

1323
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:15,279
But the long form format needs to be compelling in

1324
01:11:15,319 --> 01:11:19,439
different ways to keep people watching, which, of course, you

1325
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:22,079
deal with the way the game runs, and that's just

1326
01:11:22,079 --> 01:11:24,880
sometimes how that goes, and that's fine totally, and you

1327
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:26,880
can't always hit a home run. Yeah, but I find

1328
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:30,920
it endlessly fascinating to speculate on what formats could be

1329
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:34,479
tested and what sort of tweaks. Could there be to

1330
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:38,119
the point where you know, the regular start protesting like

1331
01:11:38,119 --> 01:11:39,199
this is no longer poker.

1332
01:11:40,159 --> 01:11:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean these are these are interesting points to

1333
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:45,720
bring up. Far be it from me to say I

1334
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:48,359
know the answer, because I don't. I'm not a nostrodamus.

1335
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:51,039
I don't know if he knew the answers. But like

1336
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:54,039
the model that worked during the boom was basically just

1337
01:11:54,079 --> 01:11:56,600
to cut it up and make effectively a reality show.

1338
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:59,439
They had these vignettes. I have a friend who have

1339
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:01,880
talked about this a lot with and if you see

1340
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:06,600
like an America's Got Talent or the Voice type of show,

1341
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:09,680
Shark Tank's a good example. You know, they have like

1342
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:12,399
a person, they show a little bit of stuff like

1343
01:12:12,399 --> 01:12:14,800
they do in their life, and then they have like

1344
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:17,199
a key moment or two with them and now they're

1345
01:12:17,239 --> 01:12:18,800
a character. You might come back to them, but then

1346
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:21,199
you go to like another vignette. I feel that's a

1347
01:12:21,319 --> 01:12:25,199
very digestible format of content for poker, and I think

1348
01:12:25,239 --> 01:12:27,439
it suits it quite well because for a long time,

1349
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:30,199
my sister in law actually is a reality TV show producer.

1350
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:32,920
I talked to her a bit about it, and I

1351
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:35,199
asked her like, you know, if I'm playing and like

1352
01:12:35,239 --> 01:12:37,079
you put on the stream, like, can you get into it?

1353
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:39,840
She's like no. I'm like yeah, okay, I mean I'm

1354
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:42,520
not surprised. And you know, it's the same with people

1355
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:46,000
that are just casual fans of the game. But if

1356
01:12:46,039 --> 01:12:48,840
the content, I understand, it's completely different endeavor. You mean,

1357
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:50,800
you have to go into post production and you have

1358
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:53,720
to like go send someone out to like interview them

1359
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:55,520
and get shots of them on the couch or in

1360
01:12:55,560 --> 01:12:58,800
their backyard or whatever. It's completely different. That's not lost

1361
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:02,439
on me. But I do think that that approach is

1362
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:07,800
just more well suited for poker because the sport itself,

1363
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:09,640
if you want to call it a sport, a mind sport,

1364
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:13,279
as I think of it, it doesn't really that easily

1365
01:13:13,359 --> 01:13:16,840
lend itself to being entertaining from a spectator standpoint if

1366
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:20,159
you're just watching the raw footage. Could we evolve poker

1367
01:13:20,199 --> 01:13:23,159
tournaments or poker in general in a way where you

1368
01:13:23,199 --> 01:13:26,640
could get like a stadium of fans. To me, it's conceivable,

1369
01:13:27,239 --> 01:13:29,319
but we're kind of not really. To me, that's like

1370
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:33,520
a far fetched goal. At the moment. I think just

1371
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:38,199
getting viewership up and having more people be aware of

1372
01:13:38,239 --> 01:13:41,439
pokercause a lot of people that I talk to about poker,

1373
01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:43,399
because again, I really do make an effort when I

1374
01:13:43,439 --> 01:13:45,319
go out in the world and I, like, you know,

1375
01:13:46,119 --> 01:13:48,159
meet people and they say what do you do, and

1376
01:13:48,199 --> 01:13:50,680
I say, I play poker. A lot of people cannot

1377
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:53,039
tell the difference between poker and blackjack. To them, it's

1378
01:13:53,079 --> 01:13:56,319
just the same thing. It's cards you're betting. I just think,

1379
01:13:56,680 --> 01:13:58,600
you know, for starters, that would be cool if there

1380
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:01,239
was a distinction between that in just the public consciousness

1381
01:14:01,239 --> 01:14:02,720
of humanity.

1382
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:05,479
Speaker 2: Really or we should stream more Blackcheck for that.

1383
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:09,880
Speaker 1: Intuition in Blackchack could be useful. Who knows.

1384
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:11,920
Speaker 2: I mean we we already have those mixed events, so

1385
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:15,079
I hold them plo, yeah, hold them Blackcheck.

1386
01:14:15,119 --> 01:14:17,079
Speaker 1: I mean they run bakara tournaments, right, yeah, why not

1387
01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:19,680
slot tournament? You can do it all.

1388
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 2: Andrew Luzeberger, thank you so much for coming on the show.

1389
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:22,359
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.

1390
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:26,359
Speaker 2: I really appreciate it. And we'll have to start Poker Dads,

1391
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:26,960
the podcast.

1392
01:14:27,239 --> 01:14:27,600
Speaker 1: I'm down.

1393
01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:29,119
Speaker 2: There's so many people that we could have on the show.

1394
01:14:29,199 --> 01:14:32,000
Speaker 1: One hundred. Everyone's a dad now, yeah.

1395
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:33,960
Speaker 2: Everybody used to be a twenty one year old basement

1396
01:14:34,079 --> 01:14:36,920
kid and everyone has children. It's kind of crazy. It's great,

1397
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:39,680
good evolution. Once again, Andre luiz Berger, thank you so

1398
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:41,399
much for being on the show. You guys at home,

1399
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:44,079
please like the video, subscribe to the channel. We've got

1400
01:14:44,079 --> 01:14:45,800
a lot more of these coming in the next couple

1401
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:47,920
of weeks, so stay tuned for more, and for now,

1402
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:48,560
thanks for watching.