Speaker 1: On The Matt Gates Show in partnership with the Zero
Speaker 1: Hedge Debates, Tonight, we are spending the entire hour with
Speaker 1: two experts who will debate whether the United States should
Speaker 1: use military force to overthrow Nicholas Maduro in Venezuela.
Speaker 2: It's all next to the Matt Gates Show. Let's do this.
Speaker 2: We're shaking up Washington, DC. We'll break in the fever.
Speaker 3: If you have a watch this guy on television like
Speaker 3: a machine.
Speaker 2: It's great. Matt Gates.
Speaker 1: Good evening, and welcome to a special edition of The
Speaker 1: Matt Gates Show. In partnership with Zero Hedge Debates tonight,
Speaker 1: we're doing something a little bit different, and in this
Speaker 1: partnership with zero Hedge, a great website, we're going to
Speaker 1: be able to have an exciting discussion. Zero Hedge Debates
Speaker 1: brings smart folks together to challenge conventional wisdom and discuss
Speaker 1: the major policy questions of the day on a variety
Speaker 1: of digital platforms. Tonight, we ask this question, should the
Speaker 1: United States overthrow the Maduro regime with military force? Taking
Speaker 1: the affirmative in this debate is an annual rincone, founder
Speaker 1: of Regional Renaissance Consulting taking the negative is Kurt Mills,
Speaker 1: executive director of the American Conservative I'm former Congressman Matt Kates.
Speaker 2: I'll be your moderator. The debate begins now.
Speaker 1: Each side is afforded a four minute opening statement, and
Speaker 1: we begin with the manual rincone.
Speaker 4: So thank you for having me, Matt. I'm gonna share
Speaker 4: some notes with you. Venezuela has the largest prove in
Speaker 4: oil reserve in the world, contains seventeen percent of all
Speaker 4: the oil in the world, is top ten worldwide in
Speaker 4: iron reserves, in aluminum, in gold, and also have the
Speaker 4: largest gas reserve in the region. Is geographically well positioned
Speaker 4: to supply the US with oil and gas, and also
Speaker 4: have an enormous rare air potential that kins also supplied
Speaker 4: the US for technology and military capacity. But right now
Speaker 4: we have Nicholas Maluro in power, of course, and Maduro
Speaker 4: has given passport to his Bola terrorI Since twenty ten,
Speaker 4: Maduro his Vola and hm us operating in our territory
Speaker 4: harbor in Middle East terrorist groups. He has also given
Speaker 4: two point five million acres to Iran, supposedly to agricultural issues.
Speaker 4: But you know who is there and what they are
Speaker 4: doing there. We got Russian and Cuan intelligence protecting the regime.
Speaker 4: But who is sending right now in this moment eighty
Speaker 4: one percent of the oil to China and it's also
Speaker 4: sending drugs and criminals to the United States. And I
Speaker 4: know what the other party is going to say, but hey,
Speaker 4: it's only cocaine. I know the alternship in the cocaine,
Speaker 4: but the cocaine is being mixed with the fentol and
Speaker 4: the ventomy least the one that is killing people with
Speaker 4: the cocaine also, So according to the FBI, according to
Speaker 4: buy the FBI, it is only from five to eight percent,
Speaker 4: but the last measure from the Trump administration in twenty
Speaker 4: twenty one said that it's like twenty or twenty five
Speaker 4: percent of the drugs that is sent into the United States.
Speaker 4: So I really don't get how anyone can think that
Speaker 4: is in the national interest of the United States for
Speaker 4: Maduro to stay in power in Venezuela.
Speaker 1: Thank you, and now we'll go to Kurt Mills for
Speaker 1: a four minute opening statement.
Speaker 2: Kurt, you recognized.
Speaker 5: Cool, so obviously rebut some of Whatmaniel just said as
Speaker 5: we get through, but I think it's the first important
Speaker 5: index on the obvious parallel. The last time the US
Speaker 5: engaged in such an open regime changed posture, and that
Speaker 5: of course was the war in I Rock. And I'm
Speaker 5: not saying that this is necessarily going to be a
Speaker 5: complete reducts of a rock, but history doesn't repeat it
Speaker 5: oft in rhymes, as they say, and they say that
Speaker 5: for a reason. It's a cliche for a reason. And
Speaker 5: in some respects this already has the portense of being
Speaker 5: potentially dumber than a rock. Some of the lying by
Speaker 5: fastest of the administration. I don't think the president per se,
Speaker 5: but members of his administration is even more outrageous. The
Speaker 5: main cause of spell as a manual just discussed there.
Speaker 5: The fentanyl is provably false, and I think it's important
Speaker 5: to contrast it because they say what you will. For
Speaker 5: the Iraq war propagators, they at least believe the WMD
Speaker 5: you claims. Even opponents of the war believed it. Then
Speaker 5: number two, it's even less popular. This is openly for
Speaker 5: elite interest groups. This is openly for frankly recent immigrants
Speaker 5: in the United States who want to topple dictators and
Speaker 5: places that they've fled. Imagine if European immigrants had done
Speaker 5: this in the nineteenth century at the US foreign policy
Speaker 5: have been weaponized to do regime change in London or
Speaker 5: Rome or Berlin. That is obviously an inappropriate use of
Speaker 5: US power. Number Three, this is actually closer to home,
Speaker 5: and so the risks are considerable. We messed up in Iraq,
Speaker 5: we messed up at Vietnam, but they were thousands of
Speaker 5: miles away.
Speaker 2: Four.
Speaker 5: The Godfather offers, so to speak, given by Caracas seems
Speaker 5: even better and more open than what Saddam offered in
Speaker 5: two thousand and two. In two thousand and three, and
Speaker 5: yet we're ignoring it. If the goal is to drive
Speaker 5: let's say, foreign hostile actors out of the region, if
Speaker 5: the goal is to drive Chinese companies out of the region,
Speaker 5: we have that offer now, and we're ignoring it anyways.
Speaker 5: And number five, I think that people driving this in
Speaker 5: the administration Hegseeth, the Secretary of War, Secretary of Defense,
Speaker 5: and Rubio, I just have to say, in a lot
Speaker 5: of ways, plainly less prepared for this moment than Rumsfeld
Speaker 5: or Colin Powell were. Hegseth is a neophi compared to Rumsfeld,
Speaker 5: and I think clearly sees a means of political survival
Speaker 5: by you know, knocking down drug boats. But knocking down
Speaker 5: drug boats is one thing. Doing regime change in a
Speaker 5: large and complex country like Venezuela is another. And Rubio,
Speaker 5: for all of his talents, is not a veteran, is
Speaker 5: not a former Joint chiefs of staff Sherman and Powell
Speaker 5: had his reservations. I think also very importantly, just to
Speaker 5: just get out of the way, you know, as I
Speaker 5: believe he is, Manuel is going to has already advanced
Speaker 5: foreign influence in Venezuela is actually trivial. The regime is
Speaker 5: so incapable of effectively managing the country that countries like
Speaker 5: China and Russia and Iran have already significantly reduced their
Speaker 5: presence there. Additionally, this idea that the major regime is
Speaker 5: provoking refugee crisis that will get worse of time, the
Speaker 5: US border has already been slammed shot by the Trump administration.
Speaker 5: The status quo in terms of inflow of refugees and
Speaker 5: infro of migrants that the United States can accommodate is
Speaker 5: already fine. Additionally, the idea that conducting regime change in
Speaker 5: Venezuela will be trivial, some compare it to the Panama scenario.
Speaker 5: Venezuela is many, many, many times larger than Panama with
Speaker 5: the hw Bush administration engaged in nineteen eighty nine, and
Speaker 5: the principal danger in Venezuela is a dramatic expansion of
Speaker 5: cartels in the power vacuum. Finally, unless I'm being cut off,
Speaker 5: I can.
Speaker 2: Know you've got about thirty seconds.
Speaker 6: Go right ahead, okay.
Speaker 5: In an American there's there's the argument that the an
Speaker 5: American intervention in Venezuela cannot be regime changed because the
Speaker 5: Venezuelan government.
Speaker 6: Is already an illegitimate regime.
Speaker 5: I have no doubt that Emmanuel is going to be
Speaker 5: passionate about how illegitimate Nicholas Maduro is.
Speaker 6: But legitimacy of the.
Speaker 5: Regime is irrelevant in a regime change war. China is
Speaker 5: not a democratic, democratically legitimate country, and this is not
Speaker 5: a good reason for the US declare war on it.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Emanuel, you've taken the affirmative position in this
Speaker 1: debate that we should use the military to dislodge Maduro
Speaker 1: from power. What would that military campaign look like? Would
Speaker 1: it be Tomahawk missiles landing in Caracas, Special forces extraction
Speaker 1: amphibious assault. Explain how we do the thing you're saying
Speaker 1: we should do.
Speaker 4: Listen, Matt, it doesn't necessarily have to be a military issue.
Speaker 4: I mean, Nicolas Maluke in nagoshe then get a Venezuela
Speaker 4: if he wants. The problem is that they do not
Speaker 4: want to. And the other thing that I want to
Speaker 4: clarify is that it's funny for me that the people
Speaker 4: that are complaining about the supposed military action in Venezuela
Speaker 4: are always compared in Venezuela with Libya and Iraq and
Speaker 4: Afghanistan and those countries that doesn't have anything to do
Speaker 4: with Venezuela. I don't know why they're not comparing Venezuela
Speaker 4: with Panama and Chile or Colombia or these countries that
Speaker 4: are receiving health from the US military standpoint to get
Speaker 4: not only democracy, but but security for the for the hemisphere.
Speaker 4: So I mean, Venezuela is a country that has right
Speaker 4: now like ninety ninety five percent for population, is a
Speaker 4: Christian country. I mean, we are not divided. We're not
Speaker 4: going to have a civil war in Venezuela. Something blows
Speaker 4: up in the country. So it is really fool to
Speaker 4: say that on the other way, I mean there could
Speaker 4: be like anything. I mean, I don't think that president
Speaker 4: term has to put like foots on the ground. I
Speaker 4: think that maybe can be some operational like why they
Speaker 4: did with solely money. That can be something that can
Speaker 4: be done. But I really don't know. I mean, that
Speaker 4: is something that is in the national security very interested
Speaker 4: and I know the one training that is going to
Speaker 4: be like with with food on the ground.
Speaker 1: And Kurt, you just heard a manual say there won't
Speaker 1: be a civil war in Venezuela if the regime falls.
Speaker 1: Do you have a different perspective on that?
Speaker 6: Look, I think you can run the simulation a number
Speaker 6: of times.
Speaker 5: I think if we ran the Iraq simulation again, it
Speaker 5: wouldn't be the exact same result. But the reality is
Speaker 5: we're dealing with projecting what is likely to happen. And
Speaker 5: you just compared it to Panama again. Venezuela is more
Speaker 5: than a dozen times the size of Panama, significally more
Speaker 5: difficult terrain in a much more dispersed populace. It also
Speaker 5: has active threats to national sovereignty in the form of cartels,
Speaker 5: which already exists, which can dispute control of territory with
Speaker 5: any US backed regime, something that was not true in Panama. Again,
Speaker 5: he said Iraq and Libya a don't hold bearing here,
Speaker 5: and that you know, Iraq is wasn't a real country
Speaker 5: and Libya wasn't a real country. Again, I urge people
Speaker 5: to look at the history. Iraq fought a nearly decade
Speaker 5: long civil war with Iran in the eighties. It was
Speaker 5: a real enough country. People died for it. And Venezuela
Speaker 5: itself is arguably not a real country anymore. In a
Speaker 5: certain sense. It's already blending with Colombia. It has its territory,
Speaker 5: is not fully controlled by Caracas. This isn't something that
Speaker 5: I think the US should be getting involved with, especially
Speaker 5: because the status quo negotiated deal with Maduro which is
Speaker 5: on offer is fine. And then finally he just compared
Speaker 5: to the Solomoni strike. Well, then I guess he doesn't
Speaker 5: agree with the supposition of the debate. Solomoni assassinating him
Speaker 5: did not collapse the Iranian regime. We are nearly six
Speaker 5: years from that strike in January twenty twenty. So what
Speaker 5: exactly is he proposing, thank.
Speaker 1: You, yeah, yeah, Manuel, What would be the decapitation action
Speaker 1: in Venezuela. That would be akin to the solemony strike
Speaker 1: in your view.
Speaker 4: Excuse me, but I would like to ask Court is
Speaker 4: if he thinks that the USA can trust in Nicolas Madu,
Speaker 4: I mean, in twenty two eight can easily become that
Speaker 4: we get again a Democratic Democrat president. So when do
Speaker 4: you think that the US can trust in Maluu? If
Speaker 4: he is literally sending drugs and criminals and receiving inity
Speaker 4: thy China and Russia and Cuba on all the states
Speaker 4: that are the enemies of the United States, that doesn't
Speaker 4: have any sense. I mean, he can say whatever he
Speaker 4: wants right now because he's scared that Trump is gonna
Speaker 4: blow up the brain. But how can you think that
Speaker 4: you can trust.
Speaker 2: In that guy? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, Kurt?
Speaker 1: Do you how do you accept the argument that sure
Speaker 1: Maduro has offered these various and sundry deals, but there's
Speaker 1: no basis upon which we could enforce that in the
Speaker 1: absence of this threat of military force.
Speaker 5: I mean, respectullly, I just think that's a childish argument.
Speaker 5: I don't trust Cure Starmer, which is arguably I don't
Speaker 5: trust Benjamin YANYAHUO.
Speaker 6: We have normalized relationship with all of these countries.
Speaker 5: I think trust is not necessarily the currency in international relations.
Speaker 5: International relations is defined by violence and anarchy. I think
Speaker 5: Maduro knows the consequences at this point if he doesn't
Speaker 5: come to some kind of accommodation with the Trump administration.
Speaker 5: I think the force of arms and the leverage there
Speaker 5: is sufficient enough to avoid a.
Speaker 6: Hot war trust.
Speaker 5: If we don't trust someone, then we should try to
Speaker 5: do regime change in every country in the world.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what we're going to get back with
Speaker 1: a lot more regarding what the day after a regime
Speaker 1: change would look like in Venezuela, how all of these
Speaker 1: foreign influences are impacting the discussion, and whether or not
Speaker 1: the narco terrorism label is a fair one.
Speaker 2: We'll be back with the manual. Manual Rincone and Kurt
Speaker 2: Mills after quick Break.
Speaker 3: Viewers are always asking me how can they watch Away
Speaker 3: in live. The solution is simple. It's a streaming platform
Speaker 3: called cloud tv now it's spelled KLOWDTV. Simply go to
Speaker 3: cloudtv dot com and subscribe to watch twenty four to
Speaker 3: seven live feeds of Oan. The live package is only
Speaker 3: two dollars and fifty cents per month for all you
Speaker 3: can watch again. Simply go to cloudtv dot com and
Speaker 3: do it today. Hey, did you know that One America
Speaker 3: News Network has launched a twenty four to seven Twitter
Speaker 3: like social media replacement. We're calling it free Talk forty five.
Speaker 3: So why is it branded free Talk forty five? Well,
Speaker 3: free talk because you will not be censored for expressing
Speaker 3: your opinion there, and forty five because forty five is
Speaker 3: a really lucky number. So join us at free Talk
Speaker 3: forty five and express yourself with no fear of cancelation. Ever, Hey,
Speaker 3: if your cable provider doesn't offer One America News Network,
Speaker 3: you should get them a call and kindly demand that
Speaker 3: they carryan Now, you're the customer, and without your feedback,
Speaker 3: your cable provider will not know that there is a
Speaker 3: strong demand across this country for One America News Network.
Speaker 3: So please call your cable company today and kindly ask
Speaker 3: or demand that they addaann to their channel lineup.
Speaker 7: Hey, everyone, here's a question for you.
Speaker 3: What does Roku TV, Apple TV, and Amazon fireTV all
Speaker 3: have in common? The answer is that all three platforms
Speaker 3: offer you the ability to live stream One America News
Speaker 3: Network from your Roku TV, Apple TV.
Speaker 7: Or Amazon Fire device.
Speaker 3: Simply go to the app store, search out FORAAN, then
Speaker 3: enjoy all the great program being offered by Alien, including
Speaker 3: my show Real America.
Speaker 2: Welcome back.
Speaker 1: This is a special edition of the Matt Gates Show
Speaker 1: in partnership with the Zero Hedge Debates. Zero hedge dot
Speaker 1: com a place where you can get a lot of
Speaker 1: interesting viewpoints about the discussions that matter to our day.
Speaker 1: And now we are debating whether or not US military
Speaker 1: force is necessary to take out the Maduro regime. We
Speaker 1: welcome back Kurt Mills of the American Conservative and Emmanuel
Speaker 1: ron Cone. Emmanuel, you're taking the position that Maduro should
Speaker 1: be removed with military force.
Speaker 2: Do me this favor. Paint a picture of what the.
Speaker 1: Day after Maduro's departure looks like. Is at Mundo Gonzales
Speaker 1: the president? Is there a military governance structure? What does
Speaker 1: that look like to you? And how is it achievable?
Speaker 4: Listen, man, the majority of the military in Venezuela is
Speaker 4: not with the regime. The thing is that we have
Speaker 4: inside of our country the erosh On, his spies, the intelligence,
Speaker 4: and they are all in favor of the Maduro regyme
Speaker 4: for all reasons. So we have right now hundreds of
Speaker 4: military in prisons or torture or being killed because the
Speaker 4: regime are I mean, all the military is infiltrated by
Speaker 4: their in so they cannot cook Maduro if they want so,
Speaker 4: by the other side if we show away in Maduro.
Speaker 4: I mean the worst cases scenario, worst cases scenario is
Speaker 4: that we become what it was Colombia in the eighties.
Speaker 4: What it was Columbia. Columbia was a state like controlling
Speaker 4: like ninety ninety five percent of the territory and they
Speaker 4: have communist real less in the borders, doing narco stuff
Speaker 4: and doing terrorism and stuff like that. But we're going
Speaker 4: to have a properly ordered and yes, no Consales is
Speaker 4: going to become the president. American child is going to
Speaker 4: become the vice president. But we're going to have order
Speaker 4: because ninety percent of our population wants to become a
Speaker 4: democracy and wants to become a country that is aligned
Speaker 4: with the United States. I don't know if you're aware,
Speaker 4: but Venezuela is the most pro American country that sees
Speaker 4: in a region. I mean, we don't play soccer in Venezuela.
Speaker 4: We played baseball when we grew up in Mannesuela, watching
Speaker 4: US series. I mean, we are the most pro American
Speaker 4: people that are in the region. The only thing that
Speaker 4: happened is that we got a fucking election in ninety
Speaker 4: eight that only thirteen percent of the population voted for chaos,
Speaker 4: and then we became in that So you know that
Speaker 4: it's easy to vote for socialism, but then you have
Speaker 4: to shoot the hell out to get out of socialism.
Speaker 4: So that is basically our problem. But we're not going
Speaker 4: to have a civil.
Speaker 2: War, Kurt.
Speaker 1: I've heard this argument in response to the comparisons to
Speaker 1: Iraq in Afghanistan. People say, well, Venezuela had an election,
Speaker 1: the people will accept the person they voted for. That
Speaker 1: wasn't the case in these other places. How would you respond, I.
Speaker 5: Guess we should just take his word for it. I mean,
Speaker 5: I suppose I'm dating. I'm debating Venezuela and Akmed Shalaby.
Speaker 5: There there are always diaspora groups from these countries who
Speaker 5: make all types of wild claims about what the people
Speaker 5: on the street believe, uh, and what the country will
Speaker 5: look like the day after, assuming that them and their
Speaker 5: friends are put in charge. We don't know, and this
Speaker 5: is not the US's business.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 5: The US does not need to stop all crime everywhere.
Speaker 5: It needs to effectively prevent criminals and drugs from reaching
Speaker 5: US soil in the most efficient way. This can be
Speaker 5: done working with law enforcement and cooperative countries to interdict
Speaker 5: transport and sealing the US border much more effectively than
Speaker 5: a regime change war. And then additionally, Trump has been
Speaker 5: about turning the page from the past the war on
Speaker 5: drugs in a lot of ways. I mean, it was
Speaker 5: fairly astonishing to see there. You know, on the one hand,
Speaker 5: the US could fight a war over drugs in the
Speaker 5: White House, and the other on the other hand, the
Speaker 5: US might actually reschedule and have already has rescheduled you know,
Speaker 5: something that put millions of people in prison, which was
Speaker 5: cannabis this week. The war on drugs is broadly has
Speaker 5: not worked, and I don't think future administrations, Republican or Democrat,
Speaker 5: should get involved with it. Does Maduro have ties to
Speaker 5: the Russians, the Iranians, and the Chinese, Sure, I guess
Speaker 5: he does. But the reality is how much have they
Speaker 5: already helped him in his darkest hour. I think that's
Speaker 5: evidence enough of how valuable they really view him as
Speaker 5: a client state. I think the most likely scenario is
Speaker 5: that our antagonists want us to repeat mistakes of other countries.
Speaker 5: That Venezuela could become the American Ukraine, a war of
Speaker 5: choice that bogs us down and in Trump's entire legacy
Speaker 5: if he doesn't manage it.
Speaker 2: Definitely Emmanuel.
Speaker 1: Secretary of State Marco Rubio today said that he expected
Speaker 1: that Russia would be supportive of Venezuela in the event
Speaker 1: of kinetic conflict with.
Speaker 2: The United States.
Speaker 1: Does that increase the case for US military action or
Speaker 1: should that give us some pause?
Speaker 4: I mean, man, you and I know that Russia is
Speaker 4: a little bit busy with the grain right now. That
Speaker 4: is only worse. I mean that that that I mean,
Speaker 4: they are providing that with intelligence and stuff like that,
Speaker 4: but they're not going to work with the United States
Speaker 4: for Venezuela. That that is ridiculous. On the other side,
Speaker 4: I mean, I really cannot understand how anybody can even
Speaker 4: think that it's better for the interests of the United
Speaker 4: States to have Nicholas Maduro there than to have Maria
Speaker 4: Kurina Machial or Munda Gonzales. I mean, it's like, what
Speaker 4: do you prefer to have a profile like Javier Mile
Speaker 4: or Nagibukele governing Venezuela or do you prefer to have
Speaker 4: Maduro that you know that is in the other side
Speaker 4: and it's giving all the resources of Minezuela to the
Speaker 4: enemies of the United States. I mean, if we are
Speaker 4: going to continue with that rhetoric or with that isolation
Speaker 4: and stuff, why w y then we don't give to
Speaker 4: China the Panama Canal on all the gas that we
Speaker 4: have in Argentina or in all the region. I mean,
Speaker 4: it's ridiculous. If you are going to be the superpower
Speaker 4: of the world, you need to put order in your hemisphere.
Speaker 4: If you're not going to do that, the other countries
Speaker 4: are going to do that and you are going to
Speaker 4: lose all the respect in the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kurt, I've heard this argument as well, that it's
Speaker 1: one thing to criticize US intervention oceans away and places
Speaker 1: where we're playing an away game, but Emmanuel says, this
Speaker 1: is a home game. This is actually where we ought
Speaker 1: to have this intense focus on who's running other countries, and.
Speaker 6: That's why it's so risky.
Speaker 5: I mean, the US can maintain hegelity in its region
Speaker 5: easily the most dangerous way and the most likely way
Speaker 5: for that not to be the case is if it
Speaker 5: becomes a pariah in its own region, right, it would
Speaker 5: be very cheap for the Russians the Chinese to you know,
Speaker 5: subtle funded an insurgency in the country in order to
Speaker 5: bogg us down and humiliate any American administration that wants
Speaker 5: to do this. The US could use his hef to
Speaker 5: quietly drive the Chinese out of South America. That's not
Speaker 5: what we're talking about. They're changing the definition of what
Speaker 5: we're doing. They're changing the rationale. They're shifting the causes.
Speaker 5: Belly daily that started with drugs. Now it's shifted away
Speaker 5: from drugs because the initial claim was lie, and now
Speaker 5: it's shifting to oil. I can't imagine something that could
Speaker 5: be well number one oils trading in the fifties right now.
Speaker 5: And so unless we want to decimate the US production
Speaker 5: market by crashing the oil market further, I don't know
Speaker 5: really get the argument. But putting aside that, if we
Speaker 5: are just fighting an open war of plunder, I can't
Speaker 5: imagine something that is going to make as more of a.
Speaker 6: Pariah naturally in the region.
Speaker 5: And then the local populations in South America and Central
Speaker 5: America will be begging for Chinese and Russians.
Speaker 1: Well, and I worried about that as I approached this question, Kurt,
Speaker 1: I'm very eager to get Emmanual's response because I thought
Speaker 1: that there would be a lot of folks in Latin
Speaker 1: America hearkening back to the days of United Fruit and
Speaker 1: Standard Fruit and US intervention in Latin America with great consternation.
Speaker 1: But almost everyone I talked to, particularly young people, were
Speaker 1: eager to see the United States overthrow Maduro. Emanuel, I
Speaker 1: want you to respond specifically to Kurt's argument that if
Speaker 1: we overthrow Maduro militarily, there is a risk that throughout
Speaker 1: Latin America, America and the United States becomes less popular.
Speaker 4: Look, Matt, there is a poll that it was made
Speaker 4: by Yips or some bloomber I think, and it says
Speaker 4: that the majority of the people in Latino America and
Speaker 4: not in Venezuela, in Latin America wants the US government
Speaker 4: to overthrow Madulu because Madua has literally ruined all the continent.
Speaker 4: We got refugees all over the all over the region,
Speaker 4: and he bees and he's been also financing the left
Speaker 4: in all the region. You know what is going on
Speaker 4: right now in Honduras, because I know that you are following.
Speaker 4: You know that they are trying to steal the election
Speaker 4: right now, INDs. So my argument is the same you
Speaker 4: know Duda's. We have the biggest military base in Central
Speaker 4: America and the chain and the Chinese we're trying to
Speaker 4: steal that military base, the airport of Farmola. So do
Speaker 4: the United States have to let China take away everything
Speaker 4: in Arega? I mean, it's ridiculous. And Venezuela is is
Speaker 4: literally the most important country in Latin America. I describe
Speaker 4: to you at the beginning of this debate all the
Speaker 4: all the minerals, all the oil and everything that we
Speaker 4: have in Venezuela. So how can anybody think that is
Speaker 4: that it is not in the best interests of the
Speaker 4: United States to Thromadura. I mean, it's it's really ridiculous.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're making the Domino argument. He's making the Domino argument, Kurt,
Speaker 1: which is that if you allow Maduro to just disregard elections,
Speaker 1: that other countries in the region they may try.
Speaker 2: To go full Maduro.
Speaker 1: And indeed, you saw an effort in Honduras for the
Speaker 1: existing communist government to try to ignore the elections. I
Speaker 1: think some good diplomacy on the part of the United
Speaker 1: States in the last twenty four hours has gotten things
Speaker 1: going in the right direction. But what's your response, Kurt,
Speaker 1: to the argument that allowing Maduro to stay emboldens the
Speaker 1: other communists in the region.
Speaker 5: I think that the status quo is that governments are
Speaker 5: flifted from left wing to right wing in the region.
Speaker 5: I mean, look at Chile, that the national trajectory has
Speaker 5: been this. The only thing that can interrupt the trajectory
Speaker 5: is if the US is made extremely unpopular and the
Speaker 5: Trump administration has made further unpopular in the region.
Speaker 6: You know, yeah, it's all well and good.
Speaker 5: I mean, first of all, like we're supposed to believe
Speaker 5: this is both a dictatorship and we're supposed to believe
Speaker 5: polling's pulling out of said dictatorship. I mean, I think
Speaker 5: the country's impossible to pull. We don't really know.
Speaker 1: None of the polie referenced is is a regional poll.
Speaker 4: I mean they are not afraid about.
Speaker 5: I I could believe that a majority of Venezuelans want
Speaker 5: to see a change in government, uh in Venezuela. But
Speaker 5: the Iraq example holds well, and the olyby example holds well,
Speaker 5: which is they don't agree.
Speaker 2: On hold on, let's Kurk talk.
Speaker 5: Go ahead, Kurt, Yeah, I think there will be a
Speaker 5: number of factions all vying for US support, were vying
Speaker 5: for the US to openly leave, and this includes drug cartels.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 5: And I just calling the shots uh on on elections
Speaker 5: in this part of the world, I think is inappropriate.
Speaker 6: The Biden administration actually started doing this.
Speaker 5: They they put their fingers on the scales more subtly
Speaker 5: than the Trump administration for Lula in Brazil and uh,
Speaker 5: you know, Lula's people have basically dogged the Bolscenaro family.
Speaker 6: They're trying to incarceate, incarcerated right now. That was inappropriate.
Speaker 5: And if unless we think that the administration is never
Speaker 5: going to shift from Republican the Democrat, I think it's
Speaker 5: a good chance it's going to be a democratic administration
Speaker 5: in this country. Again, I think this is setting up
Speaker 5: a poor precedent that no White House should be should
Speaker 5: try to replicate. We shouldn't be picking winners and losers.
Speaker 5: We can use soft power in the region to try
Speaker 5: to get the Chinese out of it and try to
Speaker 5: you know, a certain road doctrine. Starting to fire missiles,
Speaker 5: we're murdering people in the region is the number one
Speaker 5: counter productive.
Speaker 1: But what's your what's your answer to the argument that
Speaker 1: the soft power tools haven't worked in Venezuela.
Speaker 5: We haven't been trying them. I mean, Maduro has been
Speaker 5: remarkably accommodative, he's been remarkably cooperative. He's willing to make
Speaker 5: a deal with administration. I think that's pretty real. I
Speaker 5: guess I guess short of just like openly murdering this guy,
Speaker 5: I guess we haven't. We haven't really taken out the
Speaker 5: big guns. But I'm opposed to just openly murdering heads
Speaker 5: of state.
Speaker 1: Well, I think what you heard Emmanuel say was that
Speaker 1: that what we did with Noriega more an abduction than
Speaker 1: a murderer. But Emmanuel, how do you how do you
Speaker 1: see that going with with the removal of Maduro and
Speaker 1: how it will look to others and the president. You know,
Speaker 1: Kurt's making the argument that we could see are the
Speaker 1: center right governments in Honduras that's incoming in Alsalvador, as
Speaker 1: you mentioned, disrupted by left wing governments in the United States?
Speaker 2: Does that worry you not?
Speaker 4: Excuse me because court was saying that the US never
Speaker 4: tries of power with Madudu. We have seventeen dialogues in
Speaker 4: the last I don't know, twenty years with the Madura Jim.
Speaker 4: I don't know if you're aware, but the Bagan administration
Speaker 4: also released two that Madudo had here in the US.
Speaker 4: They were indicted in the US, they were charged with
Speaker 4: narco trafficking. They were brought to justice and by then
Speaker 4: released them supposedly for Madula to have a free election.
Speaker 4: And you already know what happened in Minnesota. So no,
Speaker 4: there is knows of power that is going to get
Speaker 4: Maduda out of power. And the US is going to
Speaker 4: be losing every single day if Maduri stays in power.
Speaker 4: And I already explain why, because they are going to
Speaker 4: give all their resources to the enemies of the United States.
Speaker 4: So they are harbor in the Middle East, theories in Vennesueta,
Speaker 4: and they are also giving all the energies supply to China.
Speaker 4: So that is a direct threat to the United States
Speaker 4: for the next twenty thirty forty years and the time
Speaker 4: that that remains.
Speaker 2: By Kurt, I'll give you the lost world on this point.
Speaker 5: Yeah, what we lose terrorists they're actually harboring, they have names,
Speaker 5: and I think the promiscuous definition of a terrorist has
Speaker 5: not served served you as interests. I think it is
Speaker 5: a dangerous tool of staate craft and it's getting against further.
Speaker 6: To these wars.
Speaker 5: Respectfully, this is a sovereign country. It has an imperfect system,
Speaker 5: to put it lightly, but they get to decide who
Speaker 5: their leaders are, not the US Force of Arms.
Speaker 1: Well, we will get more into that designation of narco
Speaker 1: trafficking when we're back with the zero Hedge debates on
Speaker 1: the Back Gates Show Don't Go Anywhere.
Speaker 3: Hey, did you know that one America News network has
Speaker 3: launched a twenty four to seven Twitter like social media replacement.
Speaker 3: We're calling it free Talk forty five. So why is
Speaker 3: it branded free Talk forty five? Well, free talk because
Speaker 3: you will not be censored for expressing your opinion there,
Speaker 3: and forty five because forty five is a really lucky number.
Speaker 3: So join us at free Talk forty five and express
Speaker 3: yourself with no fear of cancelation. Ever, Hey, if your
Speaker 3: cable provider doesn't offer One America News Network, you should
Speaker 3: give them a call and kindly demand that they carry
Speaker 3: away in Now you're the customer, and without your feedback,
Speaker 3: your cable provider will not know that there is a
Speaker 3: strong demand across this country.
Speaker 7: For one America News Network.
Speaker 3: So please call your cable company today and kindly ask
Speaker 3: or demand that they add o ANN to their channel lineup.
Speaker 7: Hey everyone, here's a question for you.
Speaker 3: What does Roku TV, Apple TV, and Amazon fireTV all
Speaker 3: have in common? The answer is that all three platforms
Speaker 3: offer you the ability to live stream One America News
Speaker 3: Network from your Roku TV, Apple TV or Amazon Fire device.
Speaker 3: Simply go to the app store search out FORAAN, then
Speaker 3: enjoy all the great programming offered by ON, including my
Speaker 3: show Real America.
Speaker 7: Viewers are always asking me how can they watch OAN live?
Speaker 7: The solution is simple.
Speaker 3: It's a streaming platform called cloud tv. Now it's spelled KLOWDTV.
Speaker 3: Simply go to cloud cloudtv dot com and subscribe to
Speaker 3: watch twenty four to seven live feeds of a wayn.
Speaker 3: The live package is only two dollars and fifty cents
Speaker 3: per month for all you can watch. Again, simply go
Speaker 3: to cloudtv dot com and do it.
Speaker 2: Today, we're back on.
Speaker 1: A special edition of The Matt Gates Show. We are
Speaker 1: debating whether or not the United States military should be
Speaker 1: used to overthrow the Maduro regime. This is in partnership
Speaker 1: with Zero Hedge Debates. We welcome back Kurt Mills of
Speaker 1: The American Conservative and Emmanuel Rincone, a Latin America policy expert.
Speaker 2: Emmanuel I always ask this.
Speaker 1: Question when people advocate for US military intervention. How many
Speaker 1: US service member lives is this worth? How many Americans
Speaker 1: would it be okay to have die in a conflict
Speaker 1: if the result was what you're seeking, and that is
Speaker 1: the overthrow of Maduro.
Speaker 4: Yeah, as I was say, you know, first, I don't
Speaker 4: think that the US should miss us he put boots
Speaker 4: on the ground on Venezuela. I mean there is a
Speaker 4: lot of actions that the US can use to overthrow Maduru.
Speaker 4: I mean they are seisting right now, tankers, they are
Speaker 4: destroying the cash flow of the narcomony. And then can
Speaker 4: they can do what they did with SOLI money. They
Speaker 4: can use CIA cover operations, they can do anything. I
Speaker 4: don't think that there is going to be necessary an
Speaker 4: open war with Venezuela. I think that they have to
Speaker 4: use the force, of course, but it doesn't necessarily mean
Speaker 4: that it has to be like an open word as
Speaker 4: people are claiming that it's going.
Speaker 2: To be kurt.
Speaker 1: You have spoken throughout the debate about a deal with Maduro.
Speaker 1: Take this time and really detail out what you think
Speaker 1: those deal points would be as it relates to resources,
Speaker 1: foreign influence, narcotics, cartels. What do you think it looks
Speaker 1: like and how do you enforce it?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean he conveniently didn't ask your question about
Speaker 5: how many US service members of Maduro's life, which is
Speaker 5: which is we know the answer, which is zero, were
Speaker 5: not very many at all.
Speaker 6: So and then he proposes a fantasy land.
Speaker 5: In which the US exhaust all options, and then presumably
Speaker 5: then he will propose something new. I think the assassination
Speaker 5: example is actually.
Speaker 6: A bad one.
Speaker 5: The US tried to take out a leader of a
Speaker 5: Latin American country that it didn't approve of for generations.
Speaker 5: The name was Fidel Castro Cia, tried all types of
Speaker 5: ways of killing him, didn't work. Don't think the Cuba
Speaker 5: example is actually the American success story. Cuba isolated in
Speaker 5: the United States. The United States is isolated from Cuba.
Speaker 5: I don't think it's been good, including with the blowback
Speaker 5: of Cuba. Per I think you know a lot of
Speaker 5: the Venezuelan exiles say Cuba secretly running Caracas, right, So
Speaker 5: I don't think this is that that's a particularly good
Speaker 5: hallmark as to what a deal from Maduro. Look, we
Speaker 5: have active negotiations going on right now with the Russians.
Speaker 5: Hopefully we can get negotiations going back with the Orionans
Speaker 5: and avoid confrontation of China as well. I think the
Speaker 5: deal points are pretty clear. Driving China out of the
Speaker 5: country I think should be top dollar, top number one,
Speaker 5: top initiative number two. I think everything else from there
Speaker 5: is fairly negotiable. But Maduro's opening offer is astonishing. I mean,
Speaker 5: basically giving away his countryes natural resources, at least de
Speaker 5: Jere on paper in order to avoid a war.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 6: Might he cheat on that deal, sure, but that seems a.
Speaker 5: Lot better than risking American deaths in a country that
Speaker 5: is far from US interests.
Speaker 6: Marco Rubio today said, the Secretary of State.
Speaker 5: Who's leading this effort, that the war in Ukraine is
Speaker 5: not America's war because it's not on our continent. It's
Speaker 5: true true of Venezuela, South America is in our hemisphere,
Speaker 5: but it's not on our continent.
Speaker 6: We are way outside the box on.
Speaker 1: This, I want to raise the issue of congressional involvement
Speaker 1: in this decision. President Trump has taken the position that
Speaker 1: he doesn't require war powers resolution from Congress. He's defending
Speaker 1: the country, he's engaged in anti terrorism strikes. H e Manuel,
Speaker 1: do you think that Congress should have to declare war
Speaker 1: for Maduro to be removed by force?
Speaker 4: No, because you haven't declared war or I mean you
Speaker 4: didn't go to Congress to ask permission to kill Poulos
Speaker 4: Coard for example, I mean why And the other thing
Speaker 4: that that that that that Gard was saying, I think
Speaker 4: that he's sort of like like the socialists. I mean,
Speaker 4: they are all for good intentions, but the problem is
Speaker 4: that the word is not that perfect. I mean it's
Speaker 4: not like, well, yeah, we have to try to take
Speaker 4: out the Chinese's knees, and we have to take take
Speaker 4: these people out of our hemisphere. But how I mean,
Speaker 4: you're not gonna get them out of the hemisphere with
Speaker 4: good intentions only. I mean, you have to enforce those
Speaker 4: those those intentions. So I mean, I'm all in for
Speaker 4: the US to keep being the super power of the
Speaker 4: world and defending the US interests. Also in the smaller
Speaker 4: and in everything that I do. And I also think
Speaker 4: that the US have to establish his supremacy in this
Speaker 4: hemisphere without hesitation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kurt, the argument that you're parsing it a little
Speaker 1: too much with continent versus hemispheric defense and your thoughts
Speaker 1: on the role of Congress and a war powers resolution, Yeah, I.
Speaker 5: Mean, I think pretty blase and flippant to say that
Speaker 5: Congress have no war powers authorities.
Speaker 6: I think this is It's.
Speaker 5: Long in the history of the country, It's in Article one.
Speaker 5: It's a core function, if not the core function of
Speaker 5: the Congress. The Congress is absolutely at its natier in
Speaker 5: terms of its own power and spine at the moment,
Speaker 5: and this is this is embarrassing. This is embarrassing that
Speaker 5: that Congress openly voted to avoid its own war powers ability.
Speaker 5: And I think it's it's not something that should be celebrated.
Speaker 5: I think the commander in chief should have, you know,
Speaker 5: latitude in foreign affairs, but not absolute authority.
Speaker 6: And I think it's as a.
Speaker 5: Scary moment for US statecraft that number one of the
Speaker 5: Congresses in care and the commentators like Emmanual who want
Speaker 5: us to get involved in wars also don't care.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Emmanuel, do you think that ever a president should
Speaker 1: seek congressional authority to start a war?
Speaker 6: Mat for sure.
Speaker 4: But as I was saying at first, this is this
Speaker 4: is very not not a conventional war. You're not going
Speaker 4: to war against Venezuela. You are going to war against
Speaker 4: a drug cartel. It's not the same. You're not going
Speaker 4: to have all the military of Venezuela going into a
Speaker 4: war with the United States. That that is not going
Speaker 4: to happen. I mean, I understand that in the eyes
Speaker 4: of the.
Speaker 5: Like in World War Two, they could argue that we
Speaker 5: weren't going to war with Germany, going to war with
Speaker 5: the Nazi regime and we were going worth the SS.
Speaker 5: But of course we're going to work Germany, I mean,
Speaker 5: like we will be going to war with Venezuela, the
Speaker 5: people that run Venezuela today.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I guess maybe Emmanuel, to sharpen the focus, what
Speaker 1: would be the type of circumstance that you think of
Speaker 1: war powers resolution would be necessary as opposed to now
Speaker 1: when you think it wouldn't, so that we understand the
Speaker 1: limiting principle.
Speaker 4: Well, man, if you're going to war against a country,
Speaker 4: a whole country, I insist you're not declaring the word
Speaker 4: to Venezuela or the Venezuelan people. The Venezuelan people are
Speaker 4: supporting the US. The Venezuela and people are supporting President
Speaker 4: and Trump. I mean more than ninety percent of the
Speaker 4: Venezuela and Americans in the United States modly for President Trump.
Speaker 4: I mean, this is not a war. I insist, this
Speaker 4: is not a war against another country. This is a
Speaker 4: war against a cartel. It's very different.
Speaker 1: Okay, let me dig into that. Let me dig in
Speaker 1: these authority manual. Because President Trump has declared the regime
Speaker 1: a narco terrorist regime, they're using anti terrorism authorities for
Speaker 1: their strikes in the Gulf of America. What do you
Speaker 1: think the best arguments are, the best data points facts
Speaker 1: to support President Trump's conclusion that Maduro is not just
Speaker 1: a bad leader, but is indeed a narco terrorist.
Speaker 4: Matt, I mean, I think I said that at the beginning,
Speaker 4: is harboring Middle East theorist groups is not only a
Speaker 4: sound bite for the people to attract word. Now you
Speaker 4: can actually look at all the documents, intelligence, and everything
Speaker 4: that has been prepared on that issue since twenty years ago.
Speaker 4: Is well recommanded it's well recommended, it's well related, it's
Speaker 4: easy to find. And it's not only that it's all
Speaker 4: related to drugs, to criminals and everything that has been
Speaker 4: going on for the last years. Not only being clear
Speaker 4: terrorist person for the United States, it has also been
Speaker 4: declared terrorists in other countries like equal or like Peru
Speaker 4: or Colombia. I don't know how many countries has been
Speaker 4: declared terrorists right now. So, I mean the whole issue
Speaker 4: that maybe he's not that bad, well, yeah, he's a
Speaker 4: dictator or but that is only a problem of the
Speaker 4: Venezuela is not true because as long as we are
Speaker 4: discussing this, he's harboring terrorists Middle East groups. He's giving
Speaker 4: all or resources to China and Russia, and they are
Speaker 4: also financing every bad actors in the world, every leftist organization.
Speaker 4: I don't know if you're aware. For example, this is
Speaker 4: only a tiny thing, but they financed Black Lives Matter
Speaker 4: when they didn't didn't even exist in twenty fifteen. They
Speaker 4: gave to then I think twenty million dollars and we
Speaker 4: can say odd. I mean there is a lot of
Speaker 4: houses activists or or or political organization that get to power.
Speaker 4: They finance for Demos in Spain that is a communist
Speaker 4: parry and they and they get to be vice president
Speaker 4: in Spain. So you are literally like not taking serious
Speaker 4: what they have done. I think that that is because
Speaker 4: the people in the US doesn't understand quite well you're
Speaker 4: in Venezuela or what they've been doing in the in
Speaker 4: the last twenty years. But but let me tell you
Speaker 4: that that is not like like a time you think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think by your definition of terrorists like us
Speaker 1: A I d might be a terrorist if if funding
Speaker 1: left wing political movements and political parties around the globe
Speaker 1: is terrorism.
Speaker 2: We have some of that inside the house.
Speaker 4: God, but they are using they are using drug money,
Speaker 4: the same drug money, the same drugs that are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we just lost you their Emmanuel.
Speaker 4: I don't know if you're aware, but twenty years ago,
Speaker 4: almost all Latin America was a lefties.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, almost all.
Speaker 4: America was on the left because they were financing every
Speaker 4: politician in the continent.
Speaker 1: Soa but one of the arguments Kurts made in this
Speaker 1: debate is that there's been this big shift right in
Speaker 1: Latin America, in Chile, in Argentina. Okay, but but maybe
Speaker 1: does that mean, we don't have to use our military
Speaker 1: to change these governments.
Speaker 4: That's the argument, Matt, But I insist, how are you going?
Speaker 4: I mean right now they run out of money and
Speaker 4: they also are very very I don't know what is
Speaker 4: the world, but it is. It's a credit. I mean,
Speaker 4: they don't get like like credibility in the region.
Speaker 1: Sure, well, I want to go to you because Emmanuel
Speaker 1: laid out a number of things that the Venezuelan government
Speaker 1: is doing. We obviously see the drug boats leaving Venezuela
Speaker 1: and coming to the United States.
Speaker 2: They obviously have.
Speaker 1: A bunch of cocaine and whatever else on them. What
Speaker 1: is your reticence with the narco terrorism label? And why
Speaker 1: do you call it state craft rather than an accurate
Speaker 1: depiction of what we're observing.
Speaker 5: Because people that are paid one thousand dollars to move
Speaker 5: amounts of cocaine are obviously involved in drug smuggling. But
Speaker 5: that's not if so fact of terrorism. It inflates in
Speaker 5: the mind of the American voter. Al Qaeda or isis
Speaker 5: who I think you know narrowly defined sunny millinery and terrorists,
Speaker 5: suicide bombers, Sure those are terrorists, but expanding to anyone
Speaker 5: with a gun that you don't like, or anyone who's
Speaker 5: involved in any kind of commerce that you don't like
Speaker 5: or approve of, or is even legal, I think is
Speaker 5: very very dangerous. And then additionally, the administration has relaxed
Speaker 5: the standard of evidence here on who's actually on these boats.
Speaker 5: The double Tap strike, which I think frankly may one
Speaker 5: day lead find the Secretary of War in the hay
Speaker 5: if the Democrats ever signed the ICC treaty. The Double
Speaker 5: tax strike was in part motivated we know now because
Speaker 5: they didn't have the evidence to hold these people. They
Speaker 5: killed them because they would later have to release some
Speaker 5: of them, and indeed they have.
Speaker 6: We actually don't know what these people are moving. Yeah,
Speaker 6: it's plausible that you don't.
Speaker 2: Think those people are moving drugs in those videos, Car.
Speaker 5: I think I think most, I think most of the
Speaker 5: boats are probably moving drugs. But fact as the administration
Speaker 5: feels that they could not prosecute.
Speaker 1: The case, right, but there are there are known connected
Speaker 1: Do you dispute that that there are connections between Venezuela
Speaker 1: and Middle Eastern terrorist organizations?
Speaker 2: Has blah? Yeah, I mean you do dispute that you
Speaker 2: don't think that's true that yeah.
Speaker 6: I've asked.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've asked him to name it, and I already
Speaker 5: know what he's talking about, even if he doesn't know
Speaker 5: what he's talking about, which is they alleged connection to
Speaker 5: hasblah okay, And I know that Hesbela is designated by
Speaker 5: the State Department as.
Speaker 6: A terrorist organization.
Speaker 5: I think it's a Shia militia in a nasty part
Speaker 5: of the world, but I think it is functionally distinct
Speaker 5: distinct from al Qaeda and ISIS. And additionally, I think
Speaker 5: Israel lobby talking points should not be used for a
Speaker 5: war in the Americas.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you don't, I mean there will there
Speaker 1: will be people who will watch this and say, well,
Speaker 1: if Mills doesn't think Hesbela is a terrorist organization, then
Speaker 1: that erods this credibility to say that these aren't Narco terrorists.
Speaker 2: What would be a response, Well.
Speaker 5: I'm not going to make an argument in order to
Speaker 5: win another argument.
Speaker 6: So yeah, I don't. I don't.
Speaker 5: I don't I think Al Qaeda and ISIS are terrorist organizations.
Speaker 5: I think there are plenty of organizations around the world,
Speaker 5: including the Russian military, the Chinese military, that I'm not
Speaker 5: a huge fan of, but they're not terrorists.
Speaker 1: I want to ask a question about some of the
Speaker 1: humanitarian conditions in Venezuela, A manual seven point seven million
Speaker 1: people leaving the country, mostly out of a desire for food,
Speaker 1: the extensive famine. There is it your position that the
Speaker 1: human rights abuses in Venezuela justify regime change.
Speaker 4: Matt, I mean, I I ask a Venezuela and cool
Speaker 4: are you that that is an affecting point? But but
Speaker 4: I don't think that that is some issue that is
Speaker 4: in the national interest of the United States. I think
Speaker 4: that that if the US is going to act in Venezuela,
Speaker 4: it has to do it because of his own interest
Speaker 4: and not because Maduro is violating human right.
Speaker 1: Understood, Well, we'll take one more break. Will be right
Speaker 1: back with Kurt Mills and Emmanuel Rincon and our Zero
Speaker 1: Hedge debates at One American News.
Speaker 3: Hey, if your cable provider doesn't offer One American News network,
Speaker 3: you should give him a call and kindly demand that
Speaker 3: they carry away. And now you're the customer, and without
Speaker 3: your feedback, your cable provider will not know that there
Speaker 3: is a strong demand across this country for One America
Speaker 3: News network. So please call your cable company today and
Speaker 3: kindly ask or demand that they add OANN to their
Speaker 3: channel lineup.
Speaker 7: Hey everyone, here's a question for you.
Speaker 3: What does Roku TV, Apple TV, and Amazon fireTV all
Speaker 3: have in common? The answer is that all three platforms
Speaker 3: offer you the ability to live stream One America News
Speaker 3: Network from your Roku TV, Apple TV.
Speaker 7: Or Amazon Fire device.
Speaker 3: Simply go to the app store, search out FORAAN, then
Speaker 3: enjoy all the great programming offered BYN, including my show
Speaker 3: Real America. Hey, did you know that video clips from
Speaker 3: my program Real America and all the other talk shows
Speaker 3: offered by One America News Network are available to you
Speaker 3: you for free.
Speaker 7: On oan n dot com.
Speaker 3: You can also enjoy the latest in breaking news videos
Speaker 3: by visiting OA and N dot com. Make sure you
Speaker 3: stay informed and visit oann dot com daily. And if
Speaker 3: you'd like to show support and wear some support for
Speaker 3: One America News Network, then visit our online store for.
Speaker 7: The latest shirts, hats, and mugs.
Speaker 3: Viewers are always asking me how can they watch OAN live.
Speaker 3: The solution is simple. It's a streaming platform called cloud tv.
Speaker 3: Now it's spelled klowd TV. Simply go to cloudtv dot
Speaker 3: com and subscribe to watch twenty four to seven live
Speaker 3: feeds of OAN. The live package is only two dollars
Speaker 3: and fifty cents per month for all you can watch again,
Speaker 3: simply go to cloudtv dot com and do it today.
Speaker 1: Welcome back in concert and partnership with Zero Hedge Debates.
Speaker 1: We're here with Kurt Mills of the American Conservative and
Speaker 1: Latin America policy expert Emmanuel orn Cone. Kurt, earlier in
Speaker 1: the debate of manual, used the label isolationist, and I
Speaker 1: get called that a lot. And I'm just wondering, if
Speaker 1: you are an isolationist, and if you aren't, what is
Speaker 1: the standard you use to determine whether or not the
Speaker 1: use of military force by the United States is justified.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think isolationists is a slur, but also they'll
Speaker 5: make it sound so cool. I don't think it's a
Speaker 5: useful phrase. I would call myself a nationalist and a
Speaker 5: foreign policy realist. And I think, you know, the standard
Speaker 5: for use of force is do we think it's plausitively
Speaker 5: going to make the situation better? And is the US
Speaker 5: involved in defending itself for its interests? And I think
Speaker 5: it's very clear in the Venezuela example that that standard
Speaker 5: is not meant.
Speaker 6: The risks are considerable.
Speaker 5: It's very very very unclear to me what the benefits
Speaker 5: for the US just pass tacks of involvement here even are,
Speaker 5: and the risks are enormous. That is, like I see,
Speaker 5: basically very very very very very low upside an enormous downside.
Speaker 1: Emmanuel, some of the arguments you've made about ties to
Speaker 1: narco terrorists, ties to elicit organizations around the world would
Speaker 1: also apply to Cuba, not just Venezuela. What's your answer
Speaker 1: to the argument that if we indeed topple the Maduro
Speaker 1: regime on these grounds, that the United States would then
Speaker 1: be tied into toppling other regimes on the same grounds,
Speaker 1: like the Cuban regime.
Speaker 4: Look, Matt, I mean it is almost the same with
Speaker 4: the regem of Venezuela and of the regm of Cuba.
Speaker 4: But the main difference is that I will say that
Speaker 4: actually the US has a lot more interest in Venezuela
Speaker 4: and QUBA is not that powerful. I mean, what QUBA
Speaker 4: have is a soft power because they are very good
Speaker 4: and intelligence. They are very good spies. I have told
Speaker 4: with people on the FBI, and they've been saying to
Speaker 4: me that the Quban spies are the best in the world.
Speaker 4: That is like the soft power of the Quban region.
Speaker 4: But they don't have money. They can maybe like transhipping
Speaker 4: drugs and stuff like that, but they are not such
Speaker 4: a big thread. So if the US want to get
Speaker 4: involved after in Cuba, that is another issue. What I'm
Speaker 4: speaking right now is about the national interests of the
Speaker 4: United States, and I think that the US has a
Speaker 4: great interest in half a friendly government in Venezuela, a
Speaker 4: government like Najib Bukele, a government like Javier Mile in
Speaker 4: Venezuela that are going to full support the US, that
Speaker 4: are going to allow US companies in our country, and
Speaker 4: he's going to be a change maker.
Speaker 1: In all the week, I've got time for about a
Speaker 1: thirty second closing statement from each of you.
Speaker 2: Will begin with Kurt Mills.
Speaker 6: Well, it's good to know that you're talking to the FBI.
Speaker 6: This isn't award for the deep state at all.
Speaker 5: Look, I will I'll include on this the shoe will
Speaker 5: almost certainly be on the other hoot. And we want
Speaker 5: a future democratic administration to be using force of arms
Speaker 5: to say, eject hobby Male from power, eject Bukel from power.
Speaker 5: Because if the president is said that we can do
Speaker 5: this here, and if this even works, which I don't
Speaker 5: think it will, then the temptation for a democratic Washington,
Speaker 5: who I think will be considerable.
Speaker 2: Emmanual your final thoughts, Well.
Speaker 4: What Cordio said, I mean Milay has been elected by
Speaker 4: the majority of their intenants. Has also being elected by
Speaker 4: almost ninety percent of the Saladorians, so they are not
Speaker 4: going to have any argument to try to do that.
Speaker 4: It will be ridiculous and nobody's going to support that,
Speaker 4: so it doesn't have any sense.
Speaker 2: Really, Well, we will see.
Speaker 1: This is such an timely and important issue, and I
Speaker 1: thank both of you for coming and sharing your thoughts.
Speaker 1: We also thanks Zero Hedge Debates for co hosting this
Speaker 1: with the Matt Gates Show, Kurt Mills of The American
Speaker 1: Conservative and Emmanuel arn Cone of Renaissance Consulting.
Speaker 2: Thank you both for being with us this evening.
Speaker 4: Thank you man I.
Speaker 1: The holidays are here and it's time to celebrate family,
Speaker 1: freedom and all the blessings we enjoy as Americans. But
Speaker 1: it's also a time when people are traveling, gathering and
Speaker 1: spreading a few of the germs they pick up along
Speaker 1: the way. That's why I want to tell you about
Speaker 1: All Family Pharmacy, a company that helps you stay healthy
Speaker 1: and prepared no matter what comes your way. Just go
Speaker 1: to Allfamilypharmacy dot com forward slash Matt order online, a
Speaker 1: licensed physician will review it. Once approved, your medication will
Speaker 1: ship right to your home. Whether you need ivermectin, antibiotics,
Speaker 1: or your everyday maintenance medications and vitamins, They've got you covered.
Speaker 1: It's fast, private and reliable. Take care of yourself and
Speaker 1: your family this holiday season and support a pharmacy that
Speaker 1: believes in service and freedom. Visit Allfamilypharmacy dot com forward
Speaker 1: slash Matt. Save ten percent with your order today. That's
Speaker 1: all the time we have. Have a great weekend everyone.
Speaker 1: We'll be back on Monday, nine o'clock Eastern six Pacific.
Speaker 1: Make sure to sign up for our oaan Live app
Speaker 1: if you haven't already, just go toa dot com.
Speaker 2: We love being on YouTube TV.
Speaker 1: Make sure that your preferences are set so you always
Speaker 1: get great news, opinion and analysis from one American news.
Speaker 1: Follow me on x at Matt Gates and email us
Speaker 1: the Matt Gates Show at oann dot com. And of course,
Speaker 1: stay right here because Fine Point with Chanel Ryan is
Speaker 1: up next.
Speaker 2: Let's go get them