Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune trip Cast for
Speaker 1: March thirty first, twenty twenty six. I am Matthew Watkins,
Speaker 1: editor in chief of the Texas Tribune, and joined as
Speaker 1: usual by Law and politics reporter Eleanor Klibanoff.
Speaker 2: Hello, Eleanor, thank you for having me. Thank you for
Speaker 2: being here today.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about school vouchers, or education Savings
Speaker 1: accounts or Texas Education Freedom Accounts, the program with many
Speaker 1: names for which the deadline to apply for parents ends today.
Speaker 1: We think, unless a judge pushes that back again, we
Speaker 1: will get into that here in a minute. We've had
Speaker 1: demand significantly outstriped supply. We've had Muslim schools denied applications
Speaker 1: to participate in the program. As mentioned, we had a
Speaker 1: judge extend the application period. We've had special families with
Speaker 1: kids with special education needs express challenge and getting access
Speaker 1: to their full money. And we've had a good old
Speaker 1: fashioned political fight between Ken Paxson, our Attorney General, Greg Abbott,
Speaker 1: our governor, and our governor's handpicked acting comptroller, Kelly Hancock.
Speaker 1: It's been an eventful rollout to this new program, and
Speaker 1: joining us to talk about it is Jaden Edison our
Speaker 1: k Through twelve reporter, Hello, Jaden, thanks for having me,
Speaker 1: thank you for being here. So, you know, as we're
Speaker 1: recording this, it is eleven o'clock on March thirty first.
Speaker 1: The deadline is fast approaching. We're about thirteen hours away unless,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, it get moved. It gets moved. But
Speaker 1: Jayden tell us a little bit about just what we
Speaker 1: know about kind of the application process so far. Who's applied,
Speaker 1: how many folks that that.
Speaker 2: Kind of thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, as you mentioned, application sets of close at
Speaker 3: eleven fifty nine pm March thirty first, you know, barring
Speaker 3: you know, another core order that would extend the deadline
Speaker 3: by another two weeks. And so as of yesterday the
Speaker 3: numbers were about I think the Controller reported it was
Speaker 3: roughly two hundred and fifty seven thousand or more at
Speaker 3: least two hundred fifty seven thousand family applications submitted. You know,
Speaker 3: there have been roughly over twenty two hundred private schools
Speaker 3: that have basically opted into the program who meet the
Speaker 3: qualifications and are added to the controllers approved list of
Speaker 3: what I refer to them as voucher schools. To make
Speaker 3: it easier in my head, schools who are accepting vouchers.
Speaker 3: We also got some some demographic breakdown, you know, over
Speaker 3: the course of you know, the application period as well.
Speaker 3: You know, one of the big things that people were
Speaker 3: obviously interested in, and you know, and that was based
Speaker 3: on a lot of the trends that we've seen in
Speaker 3: other states with these basically what have been called universal programs,
Speaker 3: which basically means virtually any school age child can can participate.
Speaker 3: And that's certainly how Texas has for the most part
Speaker 3: structured their program. You know, there's a lot of interests
Speaker 3: in like how many of the applicants would be families
Speaker 3: who you know, maybe already had their children in private
Speaker 3: school or homeschool. And we know that what we know
Speaker 3: so far is that really, you know, the over one
Speaker 3: majority of families that I've applied kind of fit that
Speaker 3: bill as well, the bill of already being exactly excuse me,
Speaker 3: already in private school. Now there is a caveat because
Speaker 3: for some reason which we could you know, get into,
Speaker 3: but you know, the comptroller is collecting that data in
Speaker 3: terms of prior school enrollment as of the twenty four
Speaker 3: to twenty five school year, so we don't actually know
Speaker 3: what the current enrollment is of the families, which that's
Speaker 3: a decision, but you know, I don't haven't got at the.
Speaker 4: Very least that's a family that at some point had
Speaker 4: their child recently had their child in private school, which matters, right,
Speaker 4: because the argument for why we need this is parents
Speaker 4: that don't feel like their school's child or their child
Speaker 4: school is adequate their public school and they need to
Speaker 4: sort of put them in private school to get an
Speaker 4: adequate education. Yeah, so they're already in private school. Maybe
Speaker 4: they've already found a way.
Speaker 3: To do that, right, right, and that was part of it, right,
Speaker 3: and you know, certainly to you know, you talk about
Speaker 3: this has been billed as a as a program that
Speaker 3: really you know, they they really talked about prioritizing two
Speaker 3: groups of students, right, students with disabilities and low income students.
Speaker 3: Right now, obviously you have families who maybe fit both
Speaker 3: those you know, criteria and whatnot. And so you know,
Speaker 3: we'll get finalized data whenever the application closes to be
Speaker 3: able to see what the entire deal was. But certainly,
Speaker 3: you know, also you talk about kind of racial breakdown.
Speaker 3: The contops actually as recently started putting that out after
Speaker 3: some you know, records requests from interested parties you know,
Speaker 3: journalists and organizations alike, and we have seen that. You know,
Speaker 3: if you compare it obviously to public school in romement,
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, Texas is a you know majority
Speaker 3: you know, uh Hispanic student population in public schools, you
Speaker 3: know majority, you know, low income about sixty percent. I
Speaker 3: think on free and reduced launching Texas public school as well.
Speaker 3: You know, we're seeing so far as the majority of
Speaker 3: voucher applicants are our majority white families. The income criteria
Speaker 3: is a little kind of confusing. The people like it depends.
Speaker 3: They defined it as one way, so I think you
Speaker 3: have to look at with a little bit of nuance.
Speaker 3: But certainly, you know, you have seen some interest from
Speaker 3: from middle to high income families, but as well as
Speaker 3: as low income families students.
Speaker 1: All right, I want to I want to break down
Speaker 1: the demographics a little bit more. But let's first just
Speaker 1: talk about like big picture raw numbers of people applying.
Speaker 1: So you said two hundred and fifty seven thousand students
Speaker 1: who have applied for.
Speaker 2: This family families of students. Yeah, it's a family.
Speaker 4: You could have multiple students.
Speaker 3: Exactly because the way they build it is basically like it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and we had actually had this conversation in the.
Speaker 4: Newsroom, like you're still in your argument.
Speaker 3: It was like a student can't technically apply, but the
Speaker 3: family of the student.
Speaker 2: So that's kind of how I'm looking at gotcha. Gotcha.
Speaker 1: So just to take a step back, right, the program
Speaker 1: was approved in the last legislative session a billion dollars
Speaker 1: set aside for that, we're talking about roughly the average
Speaker 1: you know, amount for students who do not have are
Speaker 1: are not either homeschooling or have special education reasons, which
Speaker 1: could increase the number is a little bit over ten
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. If so, if you're going to break that
Speaker 1: down essentially, you know, people estimating, you know, somewhere in
Speaker 1: the like ninety thousand to one hundred thousand students will
Speaker 1: be eligible. So what we're talking about here is, you know,
Speaker 1: a situation where demand has far outstripped supply and you know,
Speaker 1: likely maybe around like probably less than forty percent of
Speaker 1: the parents, the families who apply will actually get access
Speaker 1: to the vouchers. That that, you know, I think you
Speaker 1: know is a bit of a kind of eye of
Speaker 1: the beholder situation. Right, A lot of people who supported.
Speaker 1: The vouchers are really cele are really celebrating this is that,
Speaker 1: you know, this is something that families really need, you know.
Speaker 1: The other question is just what is this going to
Speaker 1: mean for this program going forward? Are we going to
Speaker 1: see you know, demand to increase this in the upcoming
Speaker 1: legislative session. What are you hearing from folks about that
Speaker 1: topic so far?
Speaker 3: So, I think certainly when we talk about legislative requests,
Speaker 3: you know, one thing, I mean, there are a few
Speaker 3: things right when you talk about the some of the
Speaker 3: things that have appeared in the bill so far, or
Speaker 3: that's just say unintended consequences that they've been kind of
Speaker 3: label certainly as it relates to like, you know, funding
Speaker 3: for students with disabilities and whether or not they can
Speaker 3: qualify for certain increases in future years, or whether for example,
Speaker 3: a home school family can move from the two thousand
Speaker 3: dollars per year category to the ten thousand, five hundred
Speaker 3: dollars per year amount category. There are some technical kind
Speaker 3: of fixes and clarity that the controller you know, has
Speaker 3: identified really that have been identified through reporting you know,
Speaker 3: that certainly you know, would be addressing and the interesting
Speaker 3: things that that is like to solve some of the
Speaker 3: issues that maybe the controller deems as the sticking point
Speaker 3: so far actually can be solved with more funding, right,
Speaker 3: and so it certainly, you know, we've seen another state
Speaker 3: and you know, we're talking about this before. Is you know,
Speaker 3: i'd be surprised if they're you know, certainly, I would
Speaker 3: imagine there's going to be you know, the request for
Speaker 3: more appropriation, and they're going to point to some of
Speaker 3: the you know, the the early demand for the program
Speaker 3: as well as maybe some of these you know, more
Speaker 3: technical things that maybe weren't intended but have kind of
Speaker 3: played out and been some of the sticking points of
Speaker 3: the program so far.
Speaker 4: One of the things we were talking about this just before,
Speaker 4: but I think it's interesting is like there will be
Speaker 4: now this whole tier of families that get turned down
Speaker 4: for this program who sort of feel like, well, this
Speaker 4: was something I thought I was going to get and
Speaker 4: now I'm not getting it, which sort of creates a
Speaker 4: whole new potential class of you know, people who are
Speaker 4: now activists for raise increasing this or who feel like,
Speaker 4: you know, the only answer is for the state to
Speaker 4: increase this, who then become you know, pushing their elected
Speaker 4: officials to increase the amount of funding towards it. So
Speaker 4: I think it is sort of like the Overton windows
Speaker 4: shifts right from should we do school vouchers to how
Speaker 4: how much money are we putting into this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's going to be very interesting because,
Speaker 1: you know, been a part of a couple panels in
Speaker 1: recent months where this topic has come up. Brought it
Speaker 1: up with the head of the Catholic Schools, which was
Speaker 1: a big advocate for this program. They were adamant, Yes,
Speaker 1: we believe there needs to be more money put into this,
Speaker 1: you know next legislative session.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, y'all courage me if I'm wrong, Like, I
Speaker 1: haven't heard the leadership coming out and saying we're going
Speaker 1: to grow this or we need to grow this that much.
Speaker 1: You know, we saw that the Lieutenant Governor and the
Speaker 1: House Speaker put out their interim charges next year. You know,
Speaker 1: I mean it's complicated, right because those those are things
Speaker 1: to study. It doesn't every not everything on that list.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: The Senate version, Dan Patrick's version, you know, he had
Speaker 1: an item called celebrating the successful rollout of school Choice.
Speaker 1: It did not ask for what needed to change. I
Speaker 1: mean it did say study and provide recommendations on how
Speaker 1: it can enhance and expand. But you know, it wasn't
Speaker 1: like we need to put you know, we need to
Speaker 1: fulfill demand or anything on that. Senator Donald Campbell, I
Speaker 1: had an opportunity, she's the new chair of the Senate
Speaker 1: Education Committee, asked her a similar question. She didn't go
Speaker 1: there either. So I think it's going to be interesting.
Speaker 1: It's going to be a much more complicated budget season
Speaker 1: next year. I think most people expect that the massive
Speaker 1: surpluses that have been available to the legislature in the
Speaker 1: past years is not going to be available this time.
Speaker 1: Maybe there will be a surplus, but not in that
Speaker 1: like double digit you know, or not double double digit billions.
Speaker 1: I can't count how many easier as that is off
Speaker 1: the top of my head. So there's going to be
Speaker 1: a lot more competing for money next year, and it'll
Speaker 1: be interesting to see. But you know, this year, Jaden,
Speaker 1: we are in that sort of you know, there is
Speaker 1: going to be a scarcity of these accounts available to people.
Speaker 1: Can you remind folks a little bit about the prioritization
Speaker 1: system and how that will be determined of who will
Speaker 1: get them and who will who will not right.
Speaker 3: So they've outlined basically several tiers. So you know we're
Speaker 3: past we know now that demand you know, exceeds funding.
Speaker 3: And so now what will happen is is it'll basically
Speaker 3: be you know, broking down to these categories.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So obviously at the top of that list are students
Speaker 3: with disabilities who fit within a certain income threshold. On
Speaker 3: income threshold, they said, I, if you're thinking about a
Speaker 3: family of four, it's going to go all the way
Speaker 3: up to roughly one hundred and sixty thousand dollars that's
Speaker 3: per year.
Speaker 2: That's five times the federal poverty level, right.
Speaker 3: For, right for, and that's specifically students with disabilities who
Speaker 3: fit that category.
Speaker 1: So and I'm going to pause you as you go
Speaker 1: down this list because I have the control as shark
Speaker 1: here about twelve percent of applicants fall into that category
Speaker 1: right now.
Speaker 3: And then so what what how the system works is
Speaker 3: basically the Controller's office is going to go through so
Speaker 3: they all those families, assuming they meet all the eligibility
Speaker 3: eligibility criteria, excuse me, they would all be priority TIS,
Speaker 3: right assuming, and that's pending acceptance to a private school,
Speaker 3: right which has to be selected by July fifteenth, right,
Speaker 3: so by July, and so once you get that through
Speaker 3: that category, then you will move down to this the
Speaker 3: second tier, which you have it in front of you,
Speaker 3: so correct me your own, but it's this one is
Speaker 3: I believe two hundred through five hundred correct percent of poverty.
Speaker 3: So that's what roughly was sixty seven thousand or so
Speaker 3: between that one hundred and sixty grand four family of four.
Speaker 3: So again this is mad so sorry people, and we're
Speaker 3: talking about thirty one percent of applicants.
Speaker 4: There, so just considered like the low income tier.
Speaker 1: That's low income you know at well sorry, there's adder
Speaker 1: below two hundred for sure, So that's the second tier, right,
Speaker 1: and then the third would be the one in between
Speaker 1: the two. So yeah, so that's where I got it mixed.
Speaker 3: So yeah, first to students with disabilities up to that
Speaker 3: five times of poverty. Second is going to be that
Speaker 3: two hundred percent category, right, and that's the thirty one
Speaker 3: percent exactly right, So that's going to be considered Elinori's
Speaker 3: your point, the kind of low income to your and
Speaker 3: then you will transition to the families who are in
Speaker 3: between those two. So right, the two hundred and five
Speaker 3: hundred percent category, and that's about thirty percent.
Speaker 1: So between those three categories, I'm doing the quick math here,
Speaker 1: you're talking about around seventy three percent of the applications
Speaker 1: right there. That means, you know, uh, some of the
Speaker 1: people in even that two hundred to five hundred percent
Speaker 1: category are probably going to be missing out. They're going
Speaker 1: to have to go into a lottery.
Speaker 2: To see whether they get it. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then obviously then the last one, if you will,
Speaker 3: it's going to be the you know, we'll consider the
Speaker 3: you know, the wealthiest families, right that's going to be
Speaker 3: at the five hundred five times of poverty or above that,
Speaker 3: and that's capped to about twenty percent of the total
Speaker 3: one billion dollar allocation.
Speaker 1: So the way it works is there go ahead, so
Speaker 1: we have five percent of those people who are not
Speaker 1: who are currently enrolled in public school, which actually I
Speaker 1: believe gets a priority over just the five hundred percent
Speaker 1: or more, which is twenty two percent of the applicants.
Speaker 4: So essentially, what you're looking at is the if they
Speaker 4: sort of follow this priority system, the wealthiest families are
Speaker 4: the least likely to get access these vouchers.
Speaker 3: So here's where the nuance gets regular There's been a
Speaker 3: ton of public conversation about this, and I think there
Speaker 3: is some clarity needed.
Speaker 2: Right, is the key here?
Speaker 3: It goes back to students getting accepted to their preferred
Speaker 3: private school. Right, so we know, for example that you know,
Speaker 3: many of these families, if you're a family for example,
Speaker 3: which that's what we know so far, it seems to
Speaker 3: be most families who applied have families who are already
Speaker 3: enrolled in private school. That's not necessarily an obstacle for you, right,
Speaker 3: you already know you're enrolled exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, but going back to what we're talking about, how
Speaker 3: the program was built, right in terms of you know,
Speaker 3: we want to you know, we're talking about the category
Speaker 3: of public school students, which is going to be a
Speaker 3: very small percentage based on what we seem so far
Speaker 3: and in other states of you know, students who switch
Speaker 3: from public to private. You know, those families ultimately, again
Speaker 3: by July fifteenth, have to find, you know, a school
Speaker 3: to accommodate their needs. And when you get into talking
Speaker 3: about families of students with disabilities, that becomes even more
Speaker 3: of a challenge because you know, many schools maybe don't
Speaker 3: have the sort of accommodations that those particular families need
Speaker 3: depending on what the disability is, where it's physical disability,
Speaker 3: learning disability, et cetera.
Speaker 2: And so there's a little nuance.
Speaker 3: To that, but you're certainly right at face value, Like
Speaker 3: if you just look at the category, they're going to
Speaker 3: have to go through each category. So let's just assume
Speaker 3: that you know, everybody in category one gets accepted. That's
Speaker 3: however many students, that's going to be everybody in category two.
Speaker 3: At some point, you're going to run out of the funds,
Speaker 3: and you know, they're going to be families who then
Speaker 3: move to the wait list, and then that has its
Speaker 3: own kind of structured system as well.
Speaker 4: And I think you could I mean, I've heard this
Speaker 4: argument right that some of these families who already have
Speaker 4: a child in private school maybe are already making like,
Speaker 4: you know, they feel like their child could not stay
Speaker 4: in public school, and they're having to make very significant
Speaker 4: sacrifices to keep, you know, to get their child in
Speaker 4: private school. This will help them not have to sort
Speaker 4: of make those extreme sacrifices anymore. So it's not like
Speaker 4: being in private school necessarily means you're the richest person alive.
Speaker 1: But correct, But they wanted to prioritize giving the people
Speaker 1: who have not had access to that get them the
Speaker 1: access to the program.
Speaker 4: But to your point, I mean, the data is pretty
Speaker 4: noisy so far. It sounds like in terms of drawing
Speaker 4: really firm conclusions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and.
Speaker 3: There's just so much that you know ultimately you know,
Speaker 3: to me, the key data points, the things I'll be
Speaker 3: looking out for is, you know, you get past the lottery,
Speaker 3: who are ultimately the beneficiaries you know of this program?
Speaker 3: Right the applicant pool is one thing, and that's telling
Speaker 3: us some things, giving us some indications, But certainly we're
Speaker 3: far from you know, any you know, certainly you can. Again,
Speaker 3: the best thing I always look at is like what
Speaker 3: has happened in other states and they can give that
Speaker 3: gives you a sense because a lot of these programs
Speaker 3: are structured you know, very similarly. But nonetheless, you know
Speaker 3: that'll be that'll tell us you know more you know
Speaker 3: about again like how taxpayer you know, dollars are being spent,
Speaker 3: et cetera.
Speaker 1: Once we get those you know, those data points. One
Speaker 1: other break down you mentioned race as well. Forty five
Speaker 1: percent of students who have applied are white, plus another
Speaker 1: twelve who are multi racial twenty three percent Hispanic, eleven
Speaker 1: percent Black, eight percent Asian Pacific Islander, and one percent American,
Speaker 1: Indian and Alaskan Native. You know, I mean what jumps
Speaker 1: out to me is the most disproportionately unrepresented group being Hispanic, right,
Speaker 1: which is like right around that majority in terms of
Speaker 1: public school students, less than a quarter of the students
Speaker 1: who have applied for this program so far.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again it goes back to like you look
Speaker 3: at I mean, if you look at like, for example,
Speaker 3: Propublic of the Investigative News that we work with them,
Speaker 3: you know, they have actually put together like a private
Speaker 3: school demographic databases based on like federal surveys and things
Speaker 3: that that nature have been able to get. And again
Speaker 3: you look at the overall kind of private school demographics, right,
Speaker 3: saying it kind of skews in the same direction. So
Speaker 3: if you're assuming that, you know, the overwhelming majority already
Speaker 3: of applicants are in private school, then the data points
Speaker 3: here that we've gotten for voucher applicants really isn't that surprising, Okay?
Speaker 1: And then so let's talk a little bit about just
Speaker 1: the process of schools getting signed up this has been
Speaker 1: a key focus. Tell us what has happened with some
Speaker 1: Islamic schools in the state.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean there's a lot to unpack, but
Speaker 3: I'll try to, you know, do the crash course version.
Speaker 3: So basically this dates back to two months ago when
Speaker 3: when Acting Controller Kelly Hancock, whose office oversees the voucher
Speaker 3: program right task with that you know, by the legislature.
Speaker 3: So basically, you know, he requested, you know, uh, an
Speaker 3: opinion from Attorney General, you know, Kim Paxton, who obviously
Speaker 3: is the state's lawyer. And so when it comes to
Speaker 3: any kind of lawsuits things of that nature, the expectation
Speaker 3: is obviously at the Attorney General Paxston is going to
Speaker 3: defend the Controller, and so that's a little context for
Speaker 3: just you know, people who to make the connection. So
Speaker 3: he requests an opinion from Kim Paxton and and what
Speaker 3: that says is is basically, and I'm giving you the
Speaker 3: crash course Jaden version of this. Right. It's like, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm going through you know, you know, this
Speaker 3: process so far, and I'm wondering if it's possible, in
Speaker 3: your legal opinion for me to exclude certain studs. Sorry,
Speaker 3: exclude certain schools that apply to our program if they
Speaker 3: are you know, tied or associated with organizations whom we
Speaker 3: as a state have deemed quote unquote foreign terrorist organizations
Speaker 3: or foreign adversaries. And what he's really getting at is
Speaker 3: is that there, you know, he pointed to specifically the
Speaker 3: Council on American Islamic Relations CARE, right, which has been
Speaker 3: in the middle of all the kind of political noise
Speaker 3: during you know, midterm election season in which Governor.
Speaker 2: Abbot has essentially declared terrorists right.
Speaker 3: And to be clear, you know, CARE has sued the
Speaker 3: governor over that label, right. You know, they've unequivocally called it,
Speaker 3: you know, defamatory, you know false. You know, they're not
Speaker 3: they don't have that designation right at the you know,
Speaker 3: if you look at the US State Department, for example,
Speaker 3: which is what always cite, they're not designated that. So
Speaker 3: that's that context is important. But nonetheless, what Kelly Hancock
Speaker 3: asked was that basically, you know, there are schools, you know,
Speaker 3: who have associated or organized, you know, certain events in
Speaker 3: the past that have been tied to CARE and so
Speaker 3: and obviously you can presume, you know, CARE is the
Speaker 3: largest the nation's i think largest Muslim civil rights organization.
Speaker 3: So presumably he's talking about schools with an Islamic focus.
Speaker 3: Can the state exclude them from the program. So Paxton
Speaker 3: gets back to him and says, Hey, the control, I mean,
Speaker 3: the legislature made you responsible for this program, and so
Speaker 3: certainly you you have that, you know, authority if if
Speaker 3: you find that there's any kind of violation of state
Speaker 3: law or you know, et cetera. And so in the
Speaker 3: months since then, what we've seen is basically that, you know,
Speaker 3: until recently, no Islamic schools that have applied to the
Speaker 3: program had act actually gotten in.
Speaker 2: Right now.
Speaker 3: There's an exception because there were actually some a handful
Speaker 3: of schools that maybe showed up on the approved list
Speaker 3: early on, but you know, once public reporting kind of
Speaker 3: you know, made that uh, you know, brought that to light,
Speaker 3: they were removed you know, from the list. And so,
Speaker 3: for all intents and purposes, until recent court activity, no
Speaker 3: Islamic schools had been accepted into the program. Meanwhile, other
Speaker 3: faith based schools, Christian Jewish schools, et cetera, hadn't run
Speaker 3: into you know, the same issues, and so that has
Speaker 3: basically led into this current court side where we're in
Speaker 3: where you had a number of Muslim families in Islamic
Speaker 3: schools that sued the state over their exclusion, you know,
Speaker 3: in citing you know, religious you know discrimination. Basically, the
Speaker 3: case that they've made to a federal judge is that, hey,
Speaker 3: the state has has brought forth allegations of terrorism, et cetera,
Speaker 3: and there's really been a blanket again, blanket exclusion of
Speaker 3: our schools in a way that has not impacted others.
Speaker 3: And what that's done, you know, and their eyes is
Speaker 3: that that's really made families Muslim families who were interested
Speaker 3: in applying deter them from doing so. And it's also,
Speaker 3: in their eyes, skewed the lottery system because certainly, even
Speaker 3: if you were today to accept every Islamic school, the
Speaker 3: families that, you know, the families that would have went
Speaker 3: to those, they're at a disadvantage because they didn't have
Speaker 3: all this time to prepare and do all these different things.
Speaker 3: And so we've gotten to a point now where you know,
Speaker 3: a court, you know, federal judge found what's happened here.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think the words he used were deeply
Speaker 3: troubling to see what's happened so far, and so therefore
Speaker 3: he ended up extending that voucher application deadline from March
Speaker 3: seventeen to March thirty first, and obviously the next court
Speaker 3: hearing is in late April, and so there it could
Speaker 3: happen to where it gets extended again, but we're kind
Speaker 3: of at this point now, we're waiting to see what happens.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons we keep qualifying the you know,
Speaker 1: it looks like it'll close today is because they have
Speaker 1: asked to extend it again and we haven't heard an
Speaker 1: answer on that that exition exactly. So you visited Aman
Speaker 1: Academy in Houston, one of these schools that has been
Speaker 1: excluded or was excluded. Tell us a little bit about
Speaker 1: your visit, what you saw there, and what you heard
Speaker 1: from the people at that school.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, I mean we got basically, you know, unfiltered access,
Speaker 3: and that was really the the idea, you know, to
Speaker 3: pull the curtain back on the you know, reporting process.
Speaker 3: You know, from my standpoint is, you know, I was,
Speaker 3: you know, we're seeing a lot of kind of reporting
Speaker 3: just about what's happening so far, but what I felt
Speaker 3: like was almost missing was like, like, Okay, there's there's
Speaker 3: a possibility assuming that one of these schools that let
Speaker 3: you in where you can go see some of these
Speaker 3: things for yourself. What are the things that are being taught?
Speaker 3: You know, how are the teachers you know, you know,
Speaker 3: you know, what are the values and things that they promote?
Speaker 3: And so certainly, you know, a mon academy was was
Speaker 3: open you know to the idea of unfiltered access.
Speaker 2: Really you know, to the school.
Speaker 3: And so we went, you know, myself in a you
Speaker 3: know photographer Anny Mulligan in Houston, and what we saw actually.
Speaker 2: Was you know, a school whose values were really I mean,
Speaker 2: it was interesting, right.
Speaker 3: It's like hyper focused on like this idea of building
Speaker 3: contributing like American citizens as they see it, right, so
Speaker 3: you know, their whole mission. Even when you talk to
Speaker 3: the students and teachers and you know, administrators, like they
Speaker 3: were all aligned on this idea of like, hey, like
Speaker 3: we want to be a part of the American education system.
Speaker 3: And so everything that we've done as a school is
Speaker 3: really crafted in that in that lens. Right, So we
Speaker 3: actually take the Star test, which is the state standardized
Speaker 3: test that public schools are required to take, even though
Speaker 3: they don't have to do that, right, we actually follow
Speaker 3: the same learning standards that public schools are you know,
Speaker 3: have to teach and hold students accountable to you know,
Speaker 3: when we invite guest speakers, you know, we actually and
Speaker 3: we seek out you know, Democrats, you know, Republicans, you
Speaker 3: know alike.
Speaker 2: You know, the education director is a black.
Speaker 3: Woman from Mississippi who's a Christian at a at an
Speaker 3: Islamic private school, and so there were just all these things.
Speaker 3: You know, you go into the class, you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: I mean, I've been to a number of you know,
Speaker 3: public schools in my career, and I would argue that
Speaker 3: what I saw really was aligned with what you would
Speaker 3: probably expect in any typical you know classroom, right, you know, fractions, ratios,
Speaker 3: you know, igneous rocks and science class like, you know,
Speaker 3: that was what it was. And so certainly, you know,
Speaker 3: you know, they took this standpoint of we actually don't
Speaker 3: want to sue the state right like others, and you know,
Speaker 3: and it goes back to what they were saying, it's like,
Speaker 3: if we're serious about being you know, positive contributing American citizens,
Speaker 3: Like from their standpoint, they believe that there has to
Speaker 3: be belief in the justice system and the process and
Speaker 3: like and you know, amending and building relationships, and so
Speaker 3: they felt like suing would actually run contrary to like
Speaker 3: what their values were. And so since that story published,
Speaker 3: the control was actually they're actually now a part on
Speaker 3: the approved list of private schools in the program. But
Speaker 3: certainly an interesting it was. It was a great visit.
Speaker 3: I mean just in terms, like I said, unfiltered access.
Speaker 3: There was nothing that was really like you can't go here,
Speaker 3: you can't ask this. It was like there was a foundation.
Speaker 3: But nonetheless, you know, we we moved and you walk
Speaker 3: through and talk to anybody, you know, we we wanted
Speaker 3: to and that to kind of have story came out
Speaker 3: to be an owner.
Speaker 1: I mean, it can't be ignored that this conversation has
Speaker 1: come during a time where, you know, the Republican primary
Speaker 1: has featured a lot of attacks against the Muslim community.
Speaker 1: I mean we had just over the weekend both French
Speaker 1: one who's in a runoff for the Railroad Commission, a
Speaker 1: position that you would not expect to have much to
Speaker 1: say about Islam, you know, essentially standing up on stage
Speaker 1: and saying like we need to normalize Islamophobia. We've had
Speaker 1: you know, we already mentioned the abbot order related to
Speaker 1: care I think, you know, there have been questions, a
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of things and concerns and legal
Speaker 1: actions taken against a community in North Texas, Amy the
Speaker 1: Epic Community, aiming to you know, create sort of a.
Speaker 2: Neighborhood around and.
Speaker 1: You know, in the Islamic community, this is something that
Speaker 1: has become very political, and I think where a lot
Speaker 1: of people practicing Muslims are feelings sort of under attack,
Speaker 1: their their values questioned by their government.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think very much. So it's just become such
Speaker 4: a political football during this you know, very content particularly
Speaker 4: during this very contentious primary season and run off where
Speaker 4: I think we've got a couple of races where candidates
Speaker 4: are sort of trying to like be more proved they're
Speaker 4: can prove that they're more conservative and in many cases
Speaker 4: sort of more inflammatory than their opponent.
Speaker 2: And it's been.
Speaker 4: A series of you know, legal actions, like you said,
Speaker 4: from the governor, from Attorney General Ken Paxton, in fact,
Speaker 4: like Ken Paxton being criticized for not doing enough to
Speaker 4: go after some of these groups, and then we're seeing
Speaker 4: you know, him sort of escalate in his legal actions.
Speaker 4: And I think this the question about the Islamic schools
Speaker 4: and the voucher program. I think actually provided like a
Speaker 4: very tangible example of how this islamophobia in like the rhetoric,
Speaker 4: actually it can translate pretty quickly into having very real impacts.
Speaker 4: Certainly the epic city the Meadows as it's you know,
Speaker 4: being called. Now it's this development in North Texas. There's
Speaker 4: a couple of these developments that are have been discussed
Speaker 4: or planned or proposed that are essentially just sort of
Speaker 4: planned communities which North Texas is full of, built around
Speaker 4: mosques or sort of catering specifically to Muslims. They say
Speaker 4: all their materials make clear, you know, anyone can live there.
Speaker 4: This is not a closed community or anything like that.
Speaker 2: And just I mean a really.
Speaker 4: Extraordinarily high number of legal challenges ongoing on all of
Speaker 4: these fronts in Texas. And yeah, you just kind of
Speaker 4: get the sense like this is being used as a
Speaker 4: political football.
Speaker 1: And this has particularly kind of shown up in now
Speaker 1: a fight between Kin Pax and Greg Abbott.
Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit more about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I we were talking this before. Matthew and
Speaker 4: I were both on a panel at the New Bruntfles
Speaker 4: in New Brunfals at the Texas Legislative Conference over the weekend,
Speaker 4: and I jokingly said, like, when I write about this stuff,
Speaker 4: I'm not allowed to use in my headlines the girls
Speaker 4: are fighting, and Hanna Norton with Community Impact tweeted that,
Speaker 4: so you know, we got it out there everywhere, so
Speaker 4: I got to get out ahead of that story. But essentially,
Speaker 4: right like, you have Kelly Hancock, who is the acting
Speaker 4: Clerk who's serving as the acting comptroller right now, appointed
Speaker 4: by Greg Abbott. He and Ken Paxton have beef that
Speaker 4: goes way back because Kelly Hancock was one of only
Speaker 4: two Republican Senators to vote to impeach Ken Paxton. But
Speaker 4: this current dust up, Kelly Hancock lost in the primary
Speaker 4: to Don haffeyin so he will not be the comptroller
Speaker 4: come January. And essentially Hancock accusing Paxton of not sufficiently
Speaker 4: defending this lawsuit about whether or not the Islamic schools
Speaker 4: can be in the voucher program Ken Paxton, and I
Speaker 4: mean using like and essentially accusing Paxton of being asleep
Speaker 4: at the wheel in stopping the spread of Islam in Texas,
Speaker 4: which you know we should say Ken Paxton has actually
Speaker 4: done a lot on that front and also has you know,
Speaker 4: Texas has had a ban on sharia law for close
Speaker 4: to a decade now, and we you know, there's a
Speaker 4: lot of myth around what is what they sort of
Speaker 4: fear is happening here in Texas. But ken Paxton responds
Speaker 4: very aggressively, calls Kelly Hancock a loser, asks Abbott to
Speaker 4: kick Hancock out of the role and put hough fines in.
Speaker 4: Abbot has not responded to anyone's request for comments about
Speaker 4: whether or not he intends to do so. But just
Speaker 4: a really really messy fight. Oh and then sort of
Speaker 4: culminating in ken Paxton saying that he would no longer
Speaker 4: be representing the Comptroller's office in litigation about this issue
Speaker 4: and accuses Hancock of sort of sharing privileged information that
Speaker 4: imperils the case publicly. Just a huge giant mess that
Speaker 4: has really nothing to do with the lawsuit at hand.
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, you know, there are these schools and these
Speaker 1: parents who are wondering whether they'll have access to this
Speaker 1: program that is available to pretty much, you know, every
Speaker 1: other religious group, demographic group in the state. Jaden, is
Speaker 1: there any evidence that's been brought forward against any of
Speaker 1: these schools or organizations to suggest that they actually have
Speaker 1: any ties to terrorism or anything else that should preclude
Speaker 1: them from participating in this program.
Speaker 3: So you know, it's interesting you all, you know, you
Speaker 3: bring up the kind of beef between you know, Paxon
Speaker 3: and Hancock, because you know, part of what's at the
Speaker 3: heart of that is like there's actually been no such
Speaker 3: evidence has been presented to the court and actually in
Speaker 3: court filings, right when the Attorney General's lawyers have talked
Speaker 3: to the judge, when the judges asked these questions of like, well,
Speaker 3: why are we seeing this, you know, these schools being
Speaker 3: blocked and not others, they pointed to actually concerns about accreditation, right,
Speaker 3: and it particularly goes back to the accreditation company for
Speaker 3: most of these Islamic schools, which is a company called Cognia.
Speaker 3: And what they're saying is that basically, you know, there
Speaker 3: were some accredited accreditation issues where maybe there were some
Speaker 3: schools that were listed as accredited, but they didn't go
Speaker 3: through the proper protocol and so Cognia had to correct
Speaker 3: those things. And so what they're saying is that these
Speaker 3: school these particular schools that have this accreditation require kind
Speaker 3: of independent review. Now, the judge didn't really buy that
Speaker 3: because there are hundreds of cognitive schools that have been
Speaker 3: accepted into the program and the ones that hadn't up
Speaker 3: until more recently were you know, there were no Islamic schools, right,
Speaker 3: and so that's what have been argued in court. Now,
Speaker 3: you brought up Kelly Hancock's letter. You know, in that
Speaker 3: particular letter, he actually makes some really serious allegations against
Speaker 3: you know, particularly a you know, a private school in
Speaker 3: Houston where he alleges you know that you know, they're superintendent.
Speaker 3: For lack of a better term, you know, you know
Speaker 3: it's tied some way tied to you know, Muslim brotherhood
Speaker 3: and you know that, and the way he described it,
Speaker 3: you know, has you know, intend on you know, you know,
Speaker 3: infiltrating kind of you know the American you know system
Speaker 3: through education and all these other lenses, et cetera, all
Speaker 3: things that for you know, just to sum it up,
Speaker 3: really had no, uh, there was nothing to substantiate those
Speaker 3: things other than Kelly Hancock saying them right, And what
Speaker 3: Paxson actually pointed out in his response was that you
Speaker 3: basically put out things that that really had not been corroborated,
Speaker 3: that had not been you know, discussed between you know,
Speaker 3: me as your attorney, and you to where now effective
Speaker 3: legal representation is virtually impossible. That's basically what Paxson said
Speaker 3: in so many words. And so yet he has submitted
Speaker 3: a request to the court to he actually that he
Speaker 3: followed through on that did submit a request to the
Speaker 3: court to withdraw as counsel and waiting to see if
Speaker 3: that will actually be granted.
Speaker 4: I mean, this is sort of what we're hearing and
Speaker 4: number of fronts. I think the schools are part of this.
Speaker 4: That's like the fear is that the Muslim population Texas
Speaker 4: is growing very quickly and that this is part of
Speaker 4: a broader plot by what you know, leaders of the
Speaker 4: Muslim faith to take over Texas, to take over the
Speaker 4: United States, to take over and change the American way
Speaker 4: of life. And this was all, you know, a plot
Speaker 4: to create these sort of like communities, these cells within Texas. Jaden,
Speaker 4: just to underline this, you went to this school, like
Speaker 4: it feels like what you saw there is like a
Speaker 4: pretty radical disconnect from the rhetoric we're hearing about these schools.
Speaker 2: You know it was and you know it.
Speaker 3: You know it's interesting, right because first and foremost, right,
Speaker 3: I want to kind of take a step back, because
Speaker 3: I think you have to think about this. You know,
Speaker 3: one of the concerns with these type programs, right if
Speaker 3: you think about really the really early iterations. I mean,
Speaker 3: I'm talking about going back to the nineteen fifty seven
Speaker 3: legislative session, right when you know, Texas propose the tuition
Speaker 3: grant plan to circumvent the Brownie Board of Education decision.
Speaker 3: Even that particular bill proposal that was put forth. You know,
Speaker 3: basically that's for Allington's purposes about your kind of type
Speaker 3: you know system plan that would have excluded you know,
Speaker 3: religious schools.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So over time, you know, one of the concerns would
Speaker 3: be that we now have taxpayer funded religious religious education.
Speaker 3: And many of these states, including Texas, have made the
Speaker 3: decision now to say, like we're going to allow that.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So, assuming that's the case now, the expectation among religiously
Speaker 3: focused institutions in schools is that everybody's going to have
Speaker 3: a fair opportunity to do this, right. And you know
Speaker 3: what I heard at the school, you know, and talking
Speaker 3: to the president, I'm thinking, you know, a conversation we
Speaker 3: had is you know, there's a quoting the story and
Speaker 3: you know, don't I don't remember a verbatim, but basically
Speaker 3: the point he was getting across is that in every
Speaker 3: religion and every faith community, in every family, you have extremists,
Speaker 3: you know, you have you know, people who don't necessarily
Speaker 3: fit you know, the values of the masses.
Speaker 2: Right, Why is it.
Speaker 3: Specifically that Muslim families or Islamic schools are the ones
Speaker 3: being singled out? And he talked about going back to
Speaker 3: the you know, American values being kind of a you know,
Speaker 3: one of the at the nucleus of what they you know,
Speaker 3: want to build at the school and in terms of
Speaker 3: helping children develop into those things, right, he talked about
Speaker 3: fairness and justice are also American values, and this is
Speaker 3: a moment where, in his eyes, you know, the controller
Speaker 3: and the state weren't living up to that, and so
Speaker 3: it's just you know, and I think that's why it
Speaker 3: was important to do the story right, because I think,
Speaker 3: you know, from from our standpoint, like, you know, these
Speaker 3: are things that when we look down I say this
Speaker 3: all the time, like twenty thirty forty years from now, like,
Speaker 3: how are people going to look at this moment in
Speaker 3: the same ways? Like me as a reporter, I look
Speaker 3: back on nineteen fifty seven and look at you know,
Speaker 3: how the Texas legislature proposed such a plan to circumvent integration, Like,
Speaker 3: is this one of those moments where you look down
Speaker 3: decades from now where we're going to be looking at
Speaker 3: this through the same lens, right, And I think going
Speaker 3: to the school and seeing it for yourself was kind
Speaker 3: of an important piece of that historical record.
Speaker 1: Well, we will watch and see how this case plays out,
Speaker 1: and we will watch and see how this broader process
Speaker 1: with the with the vouchers plays out. There is a
Speaker 1: lot to observe and a lot still to learn about
Speaker 1: how this program is gonna work.
Speaker 2: Jayden, thank you for taking some time to talk with
Speaker 2: us about it. Thank you to our producers, Rob and Chris.
Speaker 2: We will talk to y'all next week.