1 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune trip Cast for 2 00:00:11,759 --> 00:00:15,279 March thirty first, twenty twenty six. I am Matthew Watkins, 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,760 editor in chief of the Texas Tribune, and joined as 4 00:00:18,879 --> 00:00:21,879 usual by Law and politics reporter Eleanor Klibanoff. 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 2: Hello, Eleanor, thank you for having me. Thank you for 6 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:26,640 being here today. 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,359 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about school vouchers, or education Savings 8 00:00:29,359 --> 00:00:33,439 accounts or Texas Education Freedom Accounts, the program with many 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:38,479 names for which the deadline to apply for parents ends today. 10 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,880 We think, unless a judge pushes that back again, we 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,640 will get into that here in a minute. We've had 12 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,920 demand significantly outstriped supply. We've had Muslim schools denied applications 13 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,640 to participate in the program. As mentioned, we had a 14 00:00:52,759 --> 00:00:57,039 judge extend the application period. We've had special families with 15 00:00:57,159 --> 00:01:01,079 kids with special education needs express challenge and getting access 16 00:01:01,119 --> 00:01:03,320 to their full money. And we've had a good old 17 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,760 fashioned political fight between Ken Paxson, our Attorney General, Greg Abbott, 18 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,400 our governor, and our governor's handpicked acting comptroller, Kelly Hancock. 19 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:17,599 It's been an eventful rollout to this new program, and 20 00:01:17,719 --> 00:01:20,200 joining us to talk about it is Jaden Edison our 21 00:01:20,359 --> 00:01:23,560 k Through twelve reporter, Hello, Jaden, thanks for having me, 22 00:01:23,719 --> 00:01:27,599 thank you for being here. So, you know, as we're 23 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:33,480 recording this, it is eleven o'clock on March thirty first. 24 00:01:33,719 --> 00:01:39,799 The deadline is fast approaching. We're about thirteen hours away unless, 25 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,480 as I mentioned, it get moved. It gets moved. But 26 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,599 Jayden tell us a little bit about just what we 27 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,959 know about kind of the application process so far. Who's applied, 28 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:50,200 how many folks that that. 29 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 2: Kind of thing. 30 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, as you mentioned, application sets of close at 31 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,200 eleven fifty nine pm March thirty first, you know, barring 32 00:01:57,439 --> 00:02:00,000 you know, another core order that would extend the deadline 33 00:02:00,159 --> 00:02:04,640 by another two weeks. And so as of yesterday the 34 00:02:04,719 --> 00:02:07,000 numbers were about I think the Controller reported it was 35 00:02:07,079 --> 00:02:11,240 roughly two hundred and fifty seven thousand or more at 36 00:02:11,319 --> 00:02:15,400 least two hundred fifty seven thousand family applications submitted. You know, 37 00:02:15,439 --> 00:02:20,280 there have been roughly over twenty two hundred private schools 38 00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:22,560 that have basically opted into the program who meet the 39 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,840 qualifications and are added to the controllers approved list of 40 00:02:26,039 --> 00:02:27,840 what I refer to them as voucher schools. To make 41 00:02:27,879 --> 00:02:31,120 it easier in my head, schools who are accepting vouchers. 42 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,560 We also got some some demographic breakdown, you know, over 43 00:02:34,599 --> 00:02:37,120 the course of you know, the application period as well. 44 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,039 You know, one of the big things that people were 45 00:02:39,039 --> 00:02:42,840 obviously interested in, and you know, and that was based 46 00:02:42,879 --> 00:02:44,280 on a lot of the trends that we've seen in 47 00:02:44,319 --> 00:02:47,360 other states with these basically what have been called universal programs, 48 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:51,000 which basically means virtually any school age child can can participate. 49 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,520 And that's certainly how Texas has for the most part 50 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,159 structured their program. You know, there's a lot of interests 51 00:02:56,159 --> 00:02:59,400 in like how many of the applicants would be families 52 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,000 who you know, maybe already had their children in private 53 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,719 school or homeschool. And we know that what we know 54 00:03:04,759 --> 00:03:07,319 so far is that really, you know, the over one 55 00:03:07,439 --> 00:03:10,520 majority of families that I've applied kind of fit that 56 00:03:10,599 --> 00:03:15,039 bill as well, the bill of already being exactly excuse me, 57 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,319 already in private school. Now there is a caveat because 58 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:19,800 for some reason which we could you know, get into, 59 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,159 but you know, the comptroller is collecting that data in 60 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,439 terms of prior school enrollment as of the twenty four 61 00:03:25,479 --> 00:03:27,759 to twenty five school year, so we don't actually know 62 00:03:28,479 --> 00:03:30,919 what the current enrollment is of the families, which that's 63 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,479 a decision, but you know, I don't haven't got at the. 64 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 4: Very least that's a family that at some point had 65 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,599 their child recently had their child in private school, which matters, right, 66 00:03:38,639 --> 00:03:42,719 because the argument for why we need this is parents 67 00:03:42,719 --> 00:03:46,120 that don't feel like their school's child or their child 68 00:03:46,199 --> 00:03:48,680 school is adequate their public school and they need to 69 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,120 sort of put them in private school to get an 70 00:03:50,159 --> 00:03:54,479 adequate education. Yeah, so they're already in private school. Maybe 71 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:55,560 they've already found a way. 72 00:03:55,439 --> 00:03:57,479 Speaker 3: To do that, right, right, and that was part of it, right, 73 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,680 and you know, certainly to you know, you talk about 74 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:02,879 this has been billed as a as a program that 75 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,639 really you know, they they really talked about prioritizing two 76 00:04:05,639 --> 00:04:09,439 groups of students, right, students with disabilities and low income students. 77 00:04:09,479 --> 00:04:11,639 Right now, obviously you have families who maybe fit both 78 00:04:11,639 --> 00:04:14,639 those you know, criteria and whatnot. And so you know, 79 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,519 we'll get finalized data whenever the application closes to be 80 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,839 able to see what the entire deal was. But certainly, 81 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:21,959 you know, also you talk about kind of racial breakdown. 82 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,120 The contops actually as recently started putting that out after 83 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,040 some you know, records requests from interested parties you know, 84 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:33,199 journalists and organizations alike, and we have seen that. You know, 85 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,000 if you compare it obviously to public school in romement, 86 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,120 I mean, you know, Texas is a you know majority 87 00:04:37,319 --> 00:04:41,399 you know, uh Hispanic student population in public schools, you 88 00:04:41,399 --> 00:04:44,720 know majority, you know, low income about sixty percent. I 89 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,040 think on free and reduced launching Texas public school as well. 90 00:04:47,199 --> 00:04:50,120 You know, we're seeing so far as the majority of 91 00:04:50,319 --> 00:04:55,720 voucher applicants are our majority white families. The income criteria 92 00:04:55,759 --> 00:04:57,959 is a little kind of confusing. The people like it depends. 93 00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:59,560 They defined it as one way, so I think you 94 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,120 have to look at with a little bit of nuance. 95 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,519 But certainly, you know, you have seen some interest from 96 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,959 from middle to high income families, but as well as 97 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:07,279 as low income families students. 98 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:08,879 Speaker 1: All right, I want to I want to break down 99 00:05:08,879 --> 00:05:12,279 the demographics a little bit more. But let's first just 100 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,040 talk about like big picture raw numbers of people applying. 101 00:05:16,079 --> 00:05:19,199 So you said two hundred and fifty seven thousand students 102 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:20,560 who have applied for. 103 00:05:20,519 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 2: This family families of students. Yeah, it's a family. 104 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,079 Speaker 4: You could have multiple students. 105 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 3: Exactly because the way they build it is basically like it. Yeah, 106 00:05:29,959 --> 00:05:31,439 and we had actually had this conversation in the. 107 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,879 Speaker 4: Newsroom, like you're still in your argument. 108 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,199 Speaker 3: It was like a student can't technically apply, but the 109 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:39,160 family of the student. 110 00:05:39,439 --> 00:05:41,639 Speaker 2: So that's kind of how I'm looking at gotcha. Gotcha. 111 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: So just to take a step back, right, the program 112 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,079 was approved in the last legislative session a billion dollars 113 00:05:49,199 --> 00:05:53,399 set aside for that, we're talking about roughly the average 114 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:59,759 you know, amount for students who do not have are 115 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,360 are not either homeschooling or have special education reasons, which 116 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,319 could increase the number is a little bit over ten 117 00:06:05,439 --> 00:06:09,000 thousand dollars. If so, if you're going to break that 118 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,439 down essentially, you know, people estimating, you know, somewhere in 119 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,399 the like ninety thousand to one hundred thousand students will 120 00:06:16,399 --> 00:06:19,959 be eligible. So what we're talking about here is, you know, 121 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,920 a situation where demand has far outstripped supply and you know, 122 00:06:25,879 --> 00:06:28,879 likely maybe around like probably less than forty percent of 123 00:06:28,879 --> 00:06:32,319 the parents, the families who apply will actually get access 124 00:06:32,759 --> 00:06:37,120 to the vouchers. That that, you know, I think you 125 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:38,759 know is a bit of a kind of eye of 126 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,240 the beholder situation. Right, A lot of people who supported. 127 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,680 The vouchers are really cele are really celebrating this is that, 128 00:06:44,759 --> 00:06:47,959 you know, this is something that families really need, you know. 129 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,480 The other question is just what is this going to 130 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:55,199 mean for this program going forward? Are we going to 131 00:06:55,240 --> 00:07:00,000 see you know, demand to increase this in the upcoming 132 00:07:00,079 --> 00:07:02,519 legislative session. What are you hearing from folks about that 133 00:07:02,759 --> 00:07:03,920 topic so far? 134 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,519 Speaker 3: So, I think certainly when we talk about legislative requests, 135 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,920 you know, one thing, I mean, there are a few 136 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:12,800 things right when you talk about the some of the 137 00:07:12,839 --> 00:07:15,000 things that have appeared in the bill so far, or 138 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,839 that's just say unintended consequences that they've been kind of 139 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,680 label certainly as it relates to like, you know, funding 140 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,000 for students with disabilities and whether or not they can 141 00:07:24,079 --> 00:07:28,120 qualify for certain increases in future years, or whether for example, 142 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,439 a home school family can move from the two thousand 143 00:07:30,519 --> 00:07:33,519 dollars per year category to the ten thousand, five hundred 144 00:07:33,519 --> 00:07:37,399 dollars per year amount category. There are some technical kind 145 00:07:37,399 --> 00:07:40,800 of fixes and clarity that the controller you know, has 146 00:07:40,839 --> 00:07:44,160 identified really that have been identified through reporting you know, 147 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,680 that certainly you know, would be addressing and the interesting 148 00:07:46,759 --> 00:07:48,519 things that that is like to solve some of the 149 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,040 issues that maybe the controller deems as the sticking point 150 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,240 so far actually can be solved with more funding, right, 151 00:07:57,279 --> 00:07:59,959 and so it certainly, you know, we've seen another state 152 00:08:00,199 --> 00:08:03,000 and you know, we're talking about this before. Is you know, 153 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,439 i'd be surprised if they're you know, certainly, I would 154 00:08:05,439 --> 00:08:07,839 imagine there's going to be you know, the request for 155 00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:10,759 more appropriation, and they're going to point to some of 156 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,360 the you know, the the early demand for the program 157 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,680 as well as maybe some of these you know, more 158 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,319 technical things that maybe weren't intended but have kind of 159 00:08:19,319 --> 00:08:21,399 played out and been some of the sticking points of 160 00:08:21,399 --> 00:08:22,279 the program so far. 161 00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:24,839 Speaker 4: One of the things we were talking about this just before, 162 00:08:24,879 --> 00:08:27,079 but I think it's interesting is like there will be 163 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,319 now this whole tier of families that get turned down 164 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,679 for this program who sort of feel like, well, this 165 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:34,039 was something I thought I was going to get and 166 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,799 now I'm not getting it, which sort of creates a 167 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,360 whole new potential class of you know, people who are 168 00:08:41,759 --> 00:08:44,679 now activists for raise increasing this or who feel like, 169 00:08:45,039 --> 00:08:47,360 you know, the only answer is for the state to 170 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,399 increase this, who then become you know, pushing their elected 171 00:08:51,399 --> 00:08:54,840 officials to increase the amount of funding towards it. So 172 00:08:54,879 --> 00:08:57,600 I think it is sort of like the Overton windows 173 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,000 shifts right from should we do school vouchers to how 174 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:01,440 how much money are we putting into this? 175 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's going to be very interesting because, 176 00:09:05,039 --> 00:09:07,600 you know, been a part of a couple panels in 177 00:09:07,639 --> 00:09:10,480 recent months where this topic has come up. Brought it 178 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,279 up with the head of the Catholic Schools, which was 179 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,480 a big advocate for this program. They were adamant, Yes, 180 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,559 we believe there needs to be more money put into this, 181 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,279 you know next legislative session. 182 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:25,399 Speaker 2: I don't know. 183 00:09:25,519 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: I mean, y'all courage me if I'm wrong, Like, I 184 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,200 haven't heard the leadership coming out and saying we're going 185 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,039 to grow this or we need to grow this that much. 186 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,000 You know, we saw that the Lieutenant Governor and the 187 00:09:38,039 --> 00:09:41,320 House Speaker put out their interim charges next year. You know, 188 00:09:41,399 --> 00:09:43,759 I mean it's complicated, right because those those are things 189 00:09:43,799 --> 00:09:46,559 to study. It doesn't every not everything on that list. 190 00:09:46,879 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 2: You know. 191 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: The Senate version, Dan Patrick's version, you know, he had 192 00:09:50,639 --> 00:09:54,799 an item called celebrating the successful rollout of school Choice. 193 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:57,120 It did not ask for what needed to change. I 194 00:09:57,159 --> 00:09:59,720 mean it did say study and provide recommendations on how 195 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,799 it can enhance and expand. But you know, it wasn't 196 00:10:02,879 --> 00:10:05,519 like we need to put you know, we need to 197 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,759 fulfill demand or anything on that. Senator Donald Campbell, I 198 00:10:10,879 --> 00:10:14,480 had an opportunity, she's the new chair of the Senate 199 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:19,080 Education Committee, asked her a similar question. She didn't go 200 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,120 there either. So I think it's going to be interesting. 201 00:10:21,279 --> 00:10:24,120 It's going to be a much more complicated budget season 202 00:10:24,279 --> 00:10:27,759 next year. I think most people expect that the massive 203 00:10:27,799 --> 00:10:30,679 surpluses that have been available to the legislature in the 204 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,200 past years is not going to be available this time. 205 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,039 Maybe there will be a surplus, but not in that 206 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:41,919 like double digit you know, or not double double digit billions. 207 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,279 I can't count how many easier as that is off 208 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,879 the top of my head. So there's going to be 209 00:10:46,879 --> 00:10:49,399 a lot more competing for money next year, and it'll 210 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,960 be interesting to see. But you know, this year, Jaden, 211 00:10:53,039 --> 00:10:55,879 we are in that sort of you know, there is 212 00:10:55,919 --> 00:10:59,720 going to be a scarcity of these accounts available to people. 213 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,480 Can you remind folks a little bit about the prioritization 214 00:11:02,879 --> 00:11:05,240 system and how that will be determined of who will 215 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,200 get them and who will who will not right. 216 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,159 Speaker 3: So they've outlined basically several tiers. So you know we're 217 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,960 past we know now that demand you know, exceeds funding. 218 00:11:14,039 --> 00:11:16,960 And so now what will happen is is it'll basically 219 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:18,559 be you know, broking down to these categories. 220 00:11:18,639 --> 00:11:18,759 Speaker 2: Right. 221 00:11:18,799 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 3: So obviously at the top of that list are students 222 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,080 with disabilities who fit within a certain income threshold. On 223 00:11:24,399 --> 00:11:26,679 income threshold, they said, I, if you're thinking about a 224 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,639 family of four, it's going to go all the way 225 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,519 up to roughly one hundred and sixty thousand dollars that's 226 00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:31,919 per year. 227 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 2: That's five times the federal poverty level, right. 228 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,399 Speaker 3: For, right for, and that's specifically students with disabilities who 229 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:38,240 fit that category. 230 00:11:38,279 --> 00:11:39,759 Speaker 1: So and I'm going to pause you as you go 231 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,240 down this list because I have the control as shark 232 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,320 here about twelve percent of applicants fall into that category 233 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:45,759 right now. 234 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,039 Speaker 3: And then so what what how the system works is 235 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,840 basically the Controller's office is going to go through so 236 00:11:53,039 --> 00:11:55,600 they all those families, assuming they meet all the eligibility 237 00:11:55,799 --> 00:12:00,320 eligibility criteria, excuse me, they would all be priority TIS, 238 00:12:00,399 --> 00:12:04,720 right assuming, and that's pending acceptance to a private school, 239 00:12:04,799 --> 00:12:07,840 right which has to be selected by July fifteenth, right, 240 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,279 so by July, and so once you get that through 241 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,080 that category, then you will move down to this the 242 00:12:14,399 --> 00:12:16,519 second tier, which you have it in front of you, 243 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,000 so correct me your own, but it's this one is 244 00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:22,679 I believe two hundred through five hundred correct percent of poverty. 245 00:12:22,799 --> 00:12:26,399 So that's what roughly was sixty seven thousand or so 246 00:12:27,399 --> 00:12:30,080 between that one hundred and sixty grand four family of four. 247 00:12:30,159 --> 00:12:34,840 So again this is mad so sorry people, and we're 248 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,399 talking about thirty one percent of applicants. 249 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,879 Speaker 4: There, so just considered like the low income tier. 250 00:12:40,039 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: That's low income you know at well sorry, there's adder 251 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,720 below two hundred for sure, So that's the second tier, right, 252 00:12:45,759 --> 00:12:47,480 and then the third would be the one in between 253 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,320 the two. So yeah, so that's where I got it mixed. 254 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,519 Speaker 3: So yeah, first to students with disabilities up to that 255 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,159 five times of poverty. Second is going to be that 256 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,240 two hundred percent category, right, and that's the thirty one 257 00:12:58,279 --> 00:13:01,399 percent exactly right, So that's going to be considered Elinori's 258 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,600 your point, the kind of low income to your and 259 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,159 then you will transition to the families who are in 260 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,679 between those two. So right, the two hundred and five 261 00:13:08,799 --> 00:13:11,159 hundred percent category, and that's about thirty percent. 262 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 1: So between those three categories, I'm doing the quick math here, 263 00:13:14,799 --> 00:13:17,840 you're talking about around seventy three percent of the applications 264 00:13:17,919 --> 00:13:21,879 right there. That means, you know, uh, some of the 265 00:13:22,039 --> 00:13:24,440 people in even that two hundred to five hundred percent 266 00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:26,799 category are probably going to be missing out. They're going 267 00:13:26,879 --> 00:13:28,279 to have to go into a lottery. 268 00:13:28,039 --> 00:13:29,399 Speaker 2: To see whether they get it. Yeah. 269 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,519 Speaker 3: And then obviously then the last one, if you will, 270 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,960 it's going to be the you know, we'll consider the 271 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,639 you know, the wealthiest families, right that's going to be 272 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,360 at the five hundred five times of poverty or above that, 273 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,639 and that's capped to about twenty percent of the total 274 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,000 one billion dollar allocation. 275 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,639 Speaker 1: So the way it works is there go ahead, so 276 00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:53,240 we have five percent of those people who are not 277 00:13:53,799 --> 00:13:56,720 who are currently enrolled in public school, which actually I 278 00:13:56,799 --> 00:13:59,759 believe gets a priority over just the five hundred percent 279 00:13:59,799 --> 00:14:02,039 or more, which is twenty two percent of the applicants. 280 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 4: So essentially, what you're looking at is the if they 281 00:14:05,399 --> 00:14:08,840 sort of follow this priority system, the wealthiest families are 282 00:14:08,919 --> 00:14:12,120 the least likely to get access these vouchers. 283 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 3: So here's where the nuance gets regular There's been a 284 00:14:15,279 --> 00:14:18,480 ton of public conversation about this, and I think there 285 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:19,600 is some clarity needed. 286 00:14:19,679 --> 00:14:21,399 Speaker 2: Right, is the key here? 287 00:14:22,279 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 3: It goes back to students getting accepted to their preferred 288 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,600 private school. Right, so we know, for example that you know, 289 00:14:30,759 --> 00:14:33,240 many of these families, if you're a family for example, 290 00:14:33,399 --> 00:14:35,480 which that's what we know so far, it seems to 291 00:14:35,559 --> 00:14:39,039 be most families who applied have families who are already 292 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,799 enrolled in private school. That's not necessarily an obstacle for you, right, 293 00:14:42,919 --> 00:14:44,519 you already know you're enrolled exactly. 294 00:14:44,639 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 295 00:14:45,679 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 3: So, but going back to what we're talking about, how 296 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,399 the program was built, right in terms of you know, 297 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:53,360 we want to you know, we're talking about the category 298 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,399 of public school students, which is going to be a 299 00:14:55,519 --> 00:14:57,399 very small percentage based on what we seem so far 300 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,919 and in other states of you know, students who switch 301 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,679 from public to private. You know, those families ultimately, again 302 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,879 by July fifteenth, have to find, you know, a school 303 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,440 to accommodate their needs. And when you get into talking 304 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,080 about families of students with disabilities, that becomes even more 305 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,720 of a challenge because you know, many schools maybe don't 306 00:15:14,759 --> 00:15:18,440 have the sort of accommodations that those particular families need 307 00:15:18,519 --> 00:15:21,080 depending on what the disability is, where it's physical disability, 308 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,360 learning disability, et cetera. 309 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 2: And so there's a little nuance. 310 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 3: To that, but you're certainly right at face value, Like 311 00:15:26,519 --> 00:15:27,919 if you just look at the category, they're going to 312 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,080 have to go through each category. So let's just assume 313 00:15:30,159 --> 00:15:32,919 that you know, everybody in category one gets accepted. That's 314 00:15:33,039 --> 00:15:35,919 however many students, that's going to be everybody in category two. 315 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:37,679 At some point, you're going to run out of the funds, 316 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,840 and you know, they're going to be families who then 317 00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:42,639 move to the wait list, and then that has its 318 00:15:42,679 --> 00:15:44,600 own kind of structured system as well. 319 00:15:45,679 --> 00:15:47,559 Speaker 4: And I think you could I mean, I've heard this 320 00:15:47,679 --> 00:15:49,399 argument right that some of these families who already have 321 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,720 a child in private school maybe are already making like, 322 00:15:51,919 --> 00:15:54,000 you know, they feel like their child could not stay 323 00:15:54,039 --> 00:15:56,159 in public school, and they're having to make very significant 324 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,879 sacrifices to keep, you know, to get their child in 325 00:15:58,919 --> 00:16:01,320 private school. This will help them not have to sort 326 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,879 of make those extreme sacrifices anymore. So it's not like 327 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,039 being in private school necessarily means you're the richest person alive. 328 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: But correct, But they wanted to prioritize giving the people 329 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,519 who have not had access to that get them the 330 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:13,639 access to the program. 331 00:16:13,759 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 4: But to your point, I mean, the data is pretty 332 00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:18,919 noisy so far. It sounds like in terms of drawing 333 00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:20,480 really firm conclusions. 334 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and. 335 00:16:21,279 --> 00:16:24,159 Speaker 3: There's just so much that you know ultimately you know, 336 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:26,799 to me, the key data points, the things I'll be 337 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,080 looking out for is, you know, you get past the lottery, 338 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,519 who are ultimately the beneficiaries you know of this program? 339 00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:34,519 Right the applicant pool is one thing, and that's telling 340 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,399 us some things, giving us some indications, But certainly we're 341 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,879 far from you know, any you know, certainly you can. Again, 342 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:42,720 the best thing I always look at is like what 343 00:16:42,879 --> 00:16:44,320 has happened in other states and they can give that 344 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,120 gives you a sense because a lot of these programs 345 00:16:46,159 --> 00:16:49,840 are structured you know, very similarly. But nonetheless, you know 346 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,799 that'll be that'll tell us you know more you know 347 00:16:52,879 --> 00:16:56,320 about again like how taxpayer you know, dollars are being spent, 348 00:16:56,399 --> 00:16:56,840 et cetera. 349 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: Once we get those you know, those data points. One 350 00:16:59,679 --> 00:17:03,679 other break down you mentioned race as well. Forty five 351 00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:08,599 percent of students who have applied are white, plus another 352 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,880 twelve who are multi racial twenty three percent Hispanic, eleven 353 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:18,640 percent Black, eight percent Asian Pacific Islander, and one percent American, 354 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:23,119 Indian and Alaskan Native. You know, I mean what jumps 355 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:28,880 out to me is the most disproportionately unrepresented group being Hispanic, right, 356 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,440 which is like right around that majority in terms of 357 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,359 public school students, less than a quarter of the students 358 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,279 who have applied for this program so far. 359 00:17:36,559 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, and again it goes back to like you look 360 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,079 at I mean, if you look at like, for example, 361 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,200 Propublic of the Investigative News that we work with them, 362 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,759 you know, they have actually put together like a private 363 00:17:45,799 --> 00:17:49,440 school demographic databases based on like federal surveys and things 364 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,359 that that nature have been able to get. And again 365 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,720 you look at the overall kind of private school demographics, right, 366 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,200 saying it kind of skews in the same direction. So 367 00:17:57,279 --> 00:18:00,279 if you're assuming that, you know, the overwhelming majority already 368 00:18:00,279 --> 00:18:03,160 of applicants are in private school, then the data points 369 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,519 here that we've gotten for voucher applicants really isn't that surprising, Okay? 370 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: And then so let's talk a little bit about just 371 00:18:11,279 --> 00:18:13,880 the process of schools getting signed up this has been 372 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,200 a key focus. Tell us what has happened with some 373 00:18:17,599 --> 00:18:19,400 Islamic schools in the state. 374 00:18:19,799 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean there's a lot to unpack, but 375 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,599 I'll try to, you know, do the crash course version. 376 00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:28,920 So basically this dates back to two months ago when 377 00:18:29,559 --> 00:18:33,839 when Acting Controller Kelly Hancock, whose office oversees the voucher 378 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,559 program right task with that you know, by the legislature. 379 00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:42,039 So basically, you know, he requested, you know, uh, an 380 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,279 opinion from Attorney General, you know, Kim Paxton, who obviously 381 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,319 is the state's lawyer. And so when it comes to 382 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,400 any kind of lawsuits things of that nature, the expectation 383 00:18:49,519 --> 00:18:52,359 is obviously at the Attorney General Paxston is going to 384 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,359 defend the Controller, and so that's a little context for 385 00:18:55,559 --> 00:18:57,319 just you know, people who to make the connection. So 386 00:18:57,559 --> 00:19:01,400 he requests an opinion from Kim Paxton and and what 387 00:19:01,599 --> 00:19:03,880 that says is is basically, and I'm giving you the 388 00:19:04,079 --> 00:19:06,240 crash course Jaden version of this. Right. It's like, hey, 389 00:19:06,759 --> 00:19:09,480 you know, I'm going through you know, you know, this 390 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,319 process so far, and I'm wondering if it's possible, in 391 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:20,759 your legal opinion for me to exclude certain studs. Sorry, 392 00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:25,359 exclude certain schools that apply to our program if they 393 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,880 are you know, tied or associated with organizations whom we 394 00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:32,920 as a state have deemed quote unquote foreign terrorist organizations 395 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,240 or foreign adversaries. And what he's really getting at is 396 00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:41,359 is that there, you know, he pointed to specifically the 397 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,880 Council on American Islamic Relations CARE, right, which has been 398 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,160 in the middle of all the kind of political noise 399 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,559 during you know, midterm election season in which Governor. 400 00:19:50,279 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 2: Abbot has essentially declared terrorists right. 401 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 3: And to be clear, you know, CARE has sued the 402 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,400 governor over that label, right. You know, they've unequivocally called it, 403 00:20:00,519 --> 00:20:03,559 you know, defamatory, you know false. You know, they're not 404 00:20:03,759 --> 00:20:05,480 they don't have that designation right at the you know, 405 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,200 if you look at the US State Department, for example, 406 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,400 which is what always cite, they're not designated that. So 407 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,880 that's that context is important. But nonetheless, what Kelly Hancock 408 00:20:14,079 --> 00:20:16,880 asked was that basically, you know, there are schools, you know, 409 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,279 who have associated or organized, you know, certain events in 410 00:20:20,319 --> 00:20:22,279 the past that have been tied to CARE and so 411 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,240 and obviously you can presume, you know, CARE is the 412 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,319 largest the nation's i think largest Muslim civil rights organization. 413 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,000 So presumably he's talking about schools with an Islamic focus. 414 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,839 Can the state exclude them from the program. So Paxton 415 00:20:35,839 --> 00:20:37,960 gets back to him and says, Hey, the control, I mean, 416 00:20:38,039 --> 00:20:40,319 the legislature made you responsible for this program, and so 417 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,920 certainly you you have that, you know, authority if if 418 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,160 you find that there's any kind of violation of state 419 00:20:46,279 --> 00:20:49,160 law or you know, et cetera. And so in the 420 00:20:49,279 --> 00:20:52,720 months since then, what we've seen is basically that, you know, 421 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:58,680 until recently, no Islamic schools that have applied to the 422 00:20:58,759 --> 00:21:00,720 program had act actually gotten in. 423 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,039 Speaker 2: Right now. 424 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,039 Speaker 3: There's an exception because there were actually some a handful 425 00:21:06,079 --> 00:21:07,960 of schools that maybe showed up on the approved list 426 00:21:08,039 --> 00:21:10,480 early on, but you know, once public reporting kind of 427 00:21:10,599 --> 00:21:12,880 you know, made that uh, you know, brought that to light, 428 00:21:13,079 --> 00:21:14,920 they were removed you know, from the list. And so, 429 00:21:15,319 --> 00:21:18,559 for all intents and purposes, until recent court activity, no 430 00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:23,200 Islamic schools had been accepted into the program. Meanwhile, other 431 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,319 faith based schools, Christian Jewish schools, et cetera, hadn't run 432 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,240 into you know, the same issues, and so that has 433 00:21:31,319 --> 00:21:33,839 basically led into this current court side where we're in 434 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,519 where you had a number of Muslim families in Islamic 435 00:21:37,599 --> 00:21:39,920 schools that sued the state over their exclusion, you know, 436 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,079 in citing you know, religious you know discrimination. Basically, the 437 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,920 case that they've made to a federal judge is that, hey, 438 00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:52,440 the state has has brought forth allegations of terrorism, et cetera, 439 00:21:52,839 --> 00:21:56,559 and there's really been a blanket again, blanket exclusion of 440 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,680 our schools in a way that has not impacted others. 441 00:21:58,759 --> 00:22:00,680 And what that's done, you know, and their eyes is 442 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,599 that that's really made families Muslim families who were interested 443 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,880 in applying deter them from doing so. And it's also, 444 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,799 in their eyes, skewed the lottery system because certainly, even 445 00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:15,640 if you were today to accept every Islamic school, the 446 00:22:15,759 --> 00:22:18,599 families that, you know, the families that would have went 447 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,680 to those, they're at a disadvantage because they didn't have 448 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,880 all this time to prepare and do all these different things. 449 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,720 And so we've gotten to a point now where you know, 450 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,240 a court, you know, federal judge found what's happened here. 451 00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:30,960 I mean, I think the words he used were deeply 452 00:22:31,039 --> 00:22:34,640 troubling to see what's happened so far, and so therefore 453 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,599 he ended up extending that voucher application deadline from March 454 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,720 seventeen to March thirty first, and obviously the next court 455 00:22:41,759 --> 00:22:44,319 hearing is in late April, and so there it could 456 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,960 happen to where it gets extended again, but we're kind 457 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,799 of at this point now, we're waiting to see what happens. 458 00:22:48,839 --> 00:22:49,039 Speaker 2: Yeah. 459 00:22:49,039 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: One of the reasons we keep qualifying the you know, 460 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,920 it looks like it'll close today is because they have 461 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,240 asked to extend it again and we haven't heard an 462 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,839 answer on that that exition exactly. So you visited Aman 463 00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:02,880 Academy in Houston, one of these schools that has been 464 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,640 excluded or was excluded. Tell us a little bit about 465 00:23:05,799 --> 00:23:07,920 your visit, what you saw there, and what you heard 466 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,240 from the people at that school. 467 00:23:09,519 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 468 00:23:09,799 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 3: So, I mean we got basically, you know, unfiltered access, 469 00:23:12,079 --> 00:23:14,160 and that was really the the idea, you know, to 470 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,279 pull the curtain back on the you know, reporting process. 471 00:23:16,319 --> 00:23:17,880 You know, from my standpoint is, you know, I was, 472 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,680 you know, we're seeing a lot of kind of reporting 473 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,440 just about what's happening so far, but what I felt 474 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,880 like was almost missing was like, like, Okay, there's there's 475 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:28,960 a possibility assuming that one of these schools that let 476 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,400 you in where you can go see some of these 477 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,359 things for yourself. What are the things that are being taught? 478 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,400 You know, how are the teachers you know, you know, 479 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,160 you know, what are the values and things that they promote? 480 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,319 And so certainly, you know, a mon academy was was 481 00:23:39,519 --> 00:23:42,200 open you know to the idea of unfiltered access. 482 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 2: Really you know, to the school. 483 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:44,799 Speaker 3: And so we went, you know, myself in a you 484 00:23:44,839 --> 00:23:50,319 know photographer Anny Mulligan in Houston, and what we saw actually. 485 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,039 Speaker 2: Was you know, a school whose values were really I mean, 486 00:23:54,079 --> 00:23:54,799 it was interesting, right. 487 00:23:54,839 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 3: It's like hyper focused on like this idea of building 488 00:23:59,519 --> 00:24:02,799 contributing like American citizens as they see it, right, so 489 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,440 you know, their whole mission. Even when you talk to 490 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,079 the students and teachers and you know, administrators, like they 491 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,240 were all aligned on this idea of like, hey, like 492 00:24:10,839 --> 00:24:14,200 we want to be a part of the American education system. 493 00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:16,039 And so everything that we've done as a school is 494 00:24:16,079 --> 00:24:18,799 really crafted in that in that lens. Right, So we 495 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,079 actually take the Star test, which is the state standardized 496 00:24:22,079 --> 00:24:24,079 test that public schools are required to take, even though 497 00:24:24,079 --> 00:24:26,359 they don't have to do that, right, we actually follow 498 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,200 the same learning standards that public schools are you know, 499 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,839 have to teach and hold students accountable to you know, 500 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,279 when we invite guest speakers, you know, we actually and 501 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,359 we seek out you know, Democrats, you know, Republicans, you 502 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:41,880 know alike. 503 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 2: You know, the education director is a black. 504 00:24:44,079 --> 00:24:47,319 Speaker 3: Woman from Mississippi who's a Christian at a at an 505 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,680 Islamic private school, and so there were just all these things. 506 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,200 You know, you go into the class, you know, I mean, 507 00:24:51,599 --> 00:24:53,279 I mean, I've been to a number of you know, 508 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,799 public schools in my career, and I would argue that 509 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,359 what I saw really was aligned with what you would 510 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:04,000 probably expect in any typical you know classroom, right, you know, fractions, ratios, 511 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,160 you know, igneous rocks and science class like, you know, 512 00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:09,880 that was what it was. And so certainly, you know, 513 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,240 you know, they took this standpoint of we actually don't 514 00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:16,720 want to sue the state right like others, and you know, 515 00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:18,839 and it goes back to what they were saying, it's like, 516 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,240 if we're serious about being you know, positive contributing American citizens, 517 00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:26,200 Like from their standpoint, they believe that there has to 518 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:29,319 be belief in the justice system and the process and 519 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,319 like and you know, amending and building relationships, and so 520 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,119 they felt like suing would actually run contrary to like 521 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,759 what their values were. And so since that story published, 522 00:25:38,759 --> 00:25:41,119 the control was actually they're actually now a part on 523 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,200 the approved list of private schools in the program. But 524 00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:47,640 certainly an interesting it was. It was a great visit. 525 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,480 I mean just in terms, like I said, unfiltered access. 526 00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:51,400 There was nothing that was really like you can't go here, 527 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,240 you can't ask this. It was like there was a foundation. 528 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,640 But nonetheless, you know, we we moved and you walk 529 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,799 through and talk to anybody, you know, we we wanted 530 00:25:58,839 --> 00:26:01,039 to and that to kind of have story came out 531 00:26:01,079 --> 00:26:03,160 to be an owner. 532 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it can't be ignored that this conversation has 533 00:26:06,759 --> 00:26:11,440 come during a time where, you know, the Republican primary 534 00:26:11,519 --> 00:26:17,880 has featured a lot of attacks against the Muslim community. 535 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,079 I mean we had just over the weekend both French 536 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,400 one who's in a runoff for the Railroad Commission, a 537 00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:30,519 position that you would not expect to have much to 538 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,559 say about Islam, you know, essentially standing up on stage 539 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,839 and saying like we need to normalize Islamophobia. We've had 540 00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:45,279 you know, we already mentioned the abbot order related to 541 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,720 care I think, you know, there have been questions, a 542 00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:50,920 lot of a lot of things and concerns and legal 543 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,640 actions taken against a community in North Texas, Amy the 544 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,079 Epic Community, aiming to you know, create sort of a. 545 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:00,079 Speaker 2: Neighborhood around and. 546 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: You know, in the Islamic community, this is something that 547 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,799 has become very political, and I think where a lot 548 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,240 of people practicing Muslims are feelings sort of under attack, 549 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,960 their their values questioned by their government. 550 00:27:19,279 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think very much. So it's just become such 551 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,960 a political football during this you know, very content particularly 552 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,440 during this very contentious primary season and run off where 553 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,400 I think we've got a couple of races where candidates 554 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,279 are sort of trying to like be more proved they're 555 00:27:33,319 --> 00:27:35,680 can prove that they're more conservative and in many cases 556 00:27:35,759 --> 00:27:37,359 sort of more inflammatory than their opponent. 557 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:38,039 Speaker 2: And it's been. 558 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 4: A series of you know, legal actions, like you said, 559 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,960 from the governor, from Attorney General Ken Paxton, in fact, 560 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,680 like Ken Paxton being criticized for not doing enough to 561 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,480 go after some of these groups, and then we're seeing 562 00:27:50,519 --> 00:27:53,039 you know, him sort of escalate in his legal actions. 563 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:59,039 And I think this the question about the Islamic schools 564 00:27:59,079 --> 00:28:01,200 and the voucher program. I think actually provided like a 565 00:28:01,519 --> 00:28:07,279 very tangible example of how this islamophobia in like the rhetoric, 566 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,319 actually it can translate pretty quickly into having very real impacts. 567 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,160 Certainly the epic city the Meadows as it's you know, 568 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,000 being called. Now it's this development in North Texas. There's 569 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,640 a couple of these developments that are have been discussed 570 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,119 or planned or proposed that are essentially just sort of 571 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,000 planned communities which North Texas is full of, built around 572 00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:33,240 mosques or sort of catering specifically to Muslims. They say 573 00:28:34,319 --> 00:28:36,559 all their materials make clear, you know, anyone can live there. 574 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,400 This is not a closed community or anything like that. 575 00:28:40,599 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 2: And just I mean a really. 576 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,119 Speaker 4: Extraordinarily high number of legal challenges ongoing on all of 577 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,960 these fronts in Texas. And yeah, you just kind of 578 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,000 get the sense like this is being used as a 579 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:53,759 political football. 580 00:28:54,039 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: And this has particularly kind of shown up in now 581 00:28:57,079 --> 00:28:59,720 a fight between Kin Pax and Greg Abbott. 582 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit more about that. 583 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, So I we were talking this before. Matthew and 584 00:29:05,799 --> 00:29:08,200 I were both on a panel at the New Bruntfles 585 00:29:08,319 --> 00:29:10,680 in New Brunfals at the Texas Legislative Conference over the weekend, 586 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,000 and I jokingly said, like, when I write about this stuff, 587 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,160 I'm not allowed to use in my headlines the girls 588 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,720 are fighting, and Hanna Norton with Community Impact tweeted that, 589 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,480 so you know, we got it out there everywhere, so 590 00:29:24,559 --> 00:29:27,400 I got to get out ahead of that story. But essentially, 591 00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:30,640 right like, you have Kelly Hancock, who is the acting 592 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,480 Clerk who's serving as the acting comptroller right now, appointed 593 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,319 by Greg Abbott. He and Ken Paxton have beef that 594 00:29:38,359 --> 00:29:41,279 goes way back because Kelly Hancock was one of only 595 00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:45,720 two Republican Senators to vote to impeach Ken Paxton. But 596 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,640 this current dust up, Kelly Hancock lost in the primary 597 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,920 to Don haffeyin so he will not be the comptroller 598 00:29:51,839 --> 00:29:58,119 come January. And essentially Hancock accusing Paxton of not sufficiently 599 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,920 defending this lawsuit about whether or not the Islamic schools 600 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,000 can be in the voucher program Ken Paxton, and I 601 00:30:05,079 --> 00:30:08,200 mean using like and essentially accusing Paxton of being asleep 602 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,440 at the wheel in stopping the spread of Islam in Texas, 603 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,039 which you know we should say Ken Paxton has actually 604 00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:17,640 done a lot on that front and also has you know, 605 00:30:17,759 --> 00:30:20,160 Texas has had a ban on sharia law for close 606 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,240 to a decade now, and we you know, there's a 607 00:30:23,319 --> 00:30:27,039 lot of myth around what is what they sort of 608 00:30:27,119 --> 00:30:32,240 fear is happening here in Texas. But ken Paxton responds 609 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:37,680 very aggressively, calls Kelly Hancock a loser, asks Abbott to 610 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,200 kick Hancock out of the role and put hough fines in. 611 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,680 Abbot has not responded to anyone's request for comments about 612 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,880 whether or not he intends to do so. But just 613 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,799 a really really messy fight. Oh and then sort of 614 00:30:49,839 --> 00:30:53,119 culminating in ken Paxton saying that he would no longer 615 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,039 be representing the Comptroller's office in litigation about this issue 616 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,599 and accuses Hancock of sort of sharing privileged information that 617 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,599 imperils the case publicly. Just a huge giant mess that 618 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,559 has really nothing to do with the lawsuit at hand. 619 00:31:08,119 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: And meanwhile, you know, there are these schools and these 620 00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:12,799 parents who are wondering whether they'll have access to this 621 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,799 program that is available to pretty much, you know, every 622 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,720 other religious group, demographic group in the state. Jaden, is 623 00:31:20,759 --> 00:31:24,119 there any evidence that's been brought forward against any of 624 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,319 these schools or organizations to suggest that they actually have 625 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:33,160 any ties to terrorism or anything else that should preclude 626 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:34,640 them from participating in this program. 627 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 3: So you know, it's interesting you all, you know, you 628 00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:40,759 bring up the kind of beef between you know, Paxon 629 00:31:40,759 --> 00:31:43,720 and Hancock, because you know, part of what's at the 630 00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:46,559 heart of that is like there's actually been no such 631 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,160 evidence has been presented to the court and actually in 632 00:31:49,319 --> 00:31:53,839 court filings, right when the Attorney General's lawyers have talked 633 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,400 to the judge, when the judges asked these questions of like, well, 634 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,960 why are we seeing this, you know, these schools being 635 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,920 blocked and not others, they pointed to actually concerns about accreditation, right, 636 00:32:04,119 --> 00:32:06,599 and it particularly goes back to the accreditation company for 637 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,359 most of these Islamic schools, which is a company called Cognia. 638 00:32:09,759 --> 00:32:11,799 And what they're saying is that basically, you know, there 639 00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:14,160 were some accredited accreditation issues where maybe there were some 640 00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:17,319 schools that were listed as accredited, but they didn't go 641 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,880 through the proper protocol and so Cognia had to correct 642 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,559 those things. And so what they're saying is that these 643 00:32:22,559 --> 00:32:26,279 school these particular schools that have this accreditation require kind 644 00:32:26,319 --> 00:32:30,519 of independent review. Now, the judge didn't really buy that 645 00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:33,440 because there are hundreds of cognitive schools that have been 646 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,039 accepted into the program and the ones that hadn't up 647 00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:39,559 until more recently were you know, there were no Islamic schools, right, 648 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,960 and so that's what have been argued in court. Now, 649 00:32:42,359 --> 00:32:45,480 you brought up Kelly Hancock's letter. You know, in that 650 00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:49,160 particular letter, he actually makes some really serious allegations against 651 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,440 you know, particularly a you know, a private school in 652 00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:57,119 Houston where he alleges you know that you know, they're superintendent. 653 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,000 For lack of a better term, you know, you know 654 00:32:59,079 --> 00:33:03,000 it's tied some way tied to you know, Muslim brotherhood 655 00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:05,640 and you know that, and the way he described it, 656 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,920 you know, has you know, intend on you know, you know, 657 00:33:09,039 --> 00:33:12,279 infiltrating kind of you know the American you know system 658 00:33:12,359 --> 00:33:14,480 through education and all these other lenses, et cetera, all 659 00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:17,200 things that for you know, just to sum it up, 660 00:33:17,279 --> 00:33:21,319 really had no, uh, there was nothing to substantiate those 661 00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:25,240 things other than Kelly Hancock saying them right, And what 662 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,240 Paxson actually pointed out in his response was that you 663 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:33,000 basically put out things that that really had not been corroborated, 664 00:33:33,039 --> 00:33:36,519 that had not been you know, discussed between you know, 665 00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:42,279 me as your attorney, and you to where now effective 666 00:33:42,319 --> 00:33:46,240 legal representation is virtually impossible. That's basically what Paxson said 667 00:33:46,279 --> 00:33:49,000 in so many words. And so yet he has submitted 668 00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:50,680 a request to the court to he actually that he 669 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:52,440 followed through on that did submit a request to the 670 00:33:52,519 --> 00:33:55,160 court to withdraw as counsel and waiting to see if 671 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:56,279 that will actually be granted. 672 00:33:58,319 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 4: I mean, this is sort of what we're hearing and 673 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,880 number of fronts. I think the schools are part of this. 674 00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:06,680 That's like the fear is that the Muslim population Texas 675 00:34:06,799 --> 00:34:09,239 is growing very quickly and that this is part of 676 00:34:09,519 --> 00:34:15,159 a broader plot by what you know, leaders of the 677 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,880 Muslim faith to take over Texas, to take over the 678 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,079 United States, to take over and change the American way 679 00:34:21,119 --> 00:34:23,639 of life. And this was all, you know, a plot 680 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:30,880 to create these sort of like communities, these cells within Texas. Jaden, 681 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,920 just to underline this, you went to this school, like 682 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:35,920 it feels like what you saw there is like a 683 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,199 pretty radical disconnect from the rhetoric we're hearing about these schools. 684 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 2: You know it was and you know it. 685 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 3: You know it's interesting, right because first and foremost, right, 686 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,360 I want to kind of take a step back, because 687 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:48,639 I think you have to think about this. You know, 688 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,480 one of the concerns with these type programs, right if 689 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,559 you think about really the really early iterations. I mean, 690 00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:57,760 I'm talking about going back to the nineteen fifty seven 691 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,920 legislative session, right when you know, Texas propose the tuition 692 00:35:01,079 --> 00:35:04,519 grant plan to circumvent the Brownie Board of Education decision. 693 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,679 Even that particular bill proposal that was put forth. You know, 694 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,440 basically that's for Allington's purposes about your kind of type 695 00:35:11,599 --> 00:35:14,719 you know system plan that would have excluded you know, 696 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:15,719 religious schools. 697 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 2: Right. 698 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,599 Speaker 3: So over time, you know, one of the concerns would 699 00:35:20,639 --> 00:35:24,800 be that we now have taxpayer funded religious religious education. 700 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,039 And many of these states, including Texas, have made the 701 00:35:28,119 --> 00:35:30,400 decision now to say, like we're going to allow that. 702 00:35:30,599 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 2: Right. 703 00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:35,559 Speaker 3: So, assuming that's the case now, the expectation among religiously 704 00:35:35,639 --> 00:35:38,159 focused institutions in schools is that everybody's going to have 705 00:35:38,199 --> 00:35:40,679 a fair opportunity to do this, right. And you know 706 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,400 what I heard at the school, you know, and talking 707 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,199 to the president, I'm thinking, you know, a conversation we 708 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:45,920 had is you know, there's a quoting the story and 709 00:35:46,119 --> 00:35:48,159 you know, don't I don't remember a verbatim, but basically 710 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,920 the point he was getting across is that in every 711 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,840 religion and every faith community, in every family, you have extremists, 712 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,639 you know, you have you know, people who don't necessarily 713 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,599 fit you know, the values of the masses. 714 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,119 Speaker 2: Right, Why is it. 715 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:07,559 Speaker 3: Specifically that Muslim families or Islamic schools are the ones 716 00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:10,000 being singled out? And he talked about going back to 717 00:36:10,119 --> 00:36:13,400 the you know, American values being kind of a you know, 718 00:36:13,639 --> 00:36:15,639 one of the at the nucleus of what they you know, 719 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,440 want to build at the school and in terms of 720 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,119 helping children develop into those things, right, he talked about 721 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,440 fairness and justice are also American values, and this is 722 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,920 a moment where, in his eyes, you know, the controller 723 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,519 and the state weren't living up to that, and so 724 00:36:33,159 --> 00:36:34,960 it's just you know, and I think that's why it 725 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,719 was important to do the story right, because I think, 726 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,480 you know, from from our standpoint, like, you know, these 727 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,679 are things that when we look down I say this 728 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,960 all the time, like twenty thirty forty years from now, like, 729 00:36:44,039 --> 00:36:46,679 how are people going to look at this moment in 730 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,519 the same ways? Like me as a reporter, I look 731 00:36:48,559 --> 00:36:50,960 back on nineteen fifty seven and look at you know, 732 00:36:51,119 --> 00:36:54,840 how the Texas legislature proposed such a plan to circumvent integration, Like, 733 00:36:55,079 --> 00:36:56,639 is this one of those moments where you look down 734 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,239 decades from now where we're going to be looking at 735 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,280 this through the same lens, right, And I think going 736 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,039 to the school and seeing it for yourself was kind 737 00:37:02,079 --> 00:37:04,480 of an important piece of that historical record. 738 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: Well, we will watch and see how this case plays out, 739 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,159 and we will watch and see how this broader process 740 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,440 with the with the vouchers plays out. There is a 741 00:37:14,519 --> 00:37:16,719 lot to observe and a lot still to learn about 742 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:17,840 how this program is gonna work. 743 00:37:18,159 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 2: Jayden, thank you for taking some time to talk with 744 00:37:21,559 --> 00:37:24,000 us about it. Thank you to our producers, Rob and Chris. 745 00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:26,320 We will talk to y'all next week.