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Sign up now at Chumba Casino dot com. 24 00:00:57.679 --> 00:00:59.920 Noll prig necessary, dripod where everybody lost in terms of 25 00:00:59.920 --> 00:01:00.880 it since eighty plus. 26 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:11.400 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 27 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:14.480 killers in True crime History and the authors that have 28 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:21.879 written about him Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, BTK. Every 29 00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:25.599 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 30 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 31 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:43.239 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 32 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:47.159 Jillian Lauren had no idea what she was getting into 33 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:50.040 when she wrote her first letter to prolific serial killer 34 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:53.560 Samuel Little. All she knew was her research had led 35 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:55.799 her to believe that he was good for far more 36 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:58.519 murders than the three for which he had been convicted. 37 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:02.040 While the two extra changed dozens of letters and embarked 38 00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:05.159 on hundreds of hours of interviews, Lauren gained the trusts 39 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:09.319 of a monster. After maintaining his innocence for decades, Little 40 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:12.520 confessed to the murders of ninety three women, often drawing 41 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:15.800 his victims in haunting detail as he spoke, how could 42 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:20.599 one man evade justice? Manipulating the system for over four decades, 43 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:25.800 as the FBI, the DOJ, the LAPD, and countless law 44 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:28.919 enforcement officials across the country worked to connect their coal 45 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:33.199 cases with the confessions. Lauren's coverage of the investigations and 46 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:38.919 obsession with Little's victims only escalated. New York Times bestselling 47 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:43.039 author and lead of the Stars docuseries Confronting a serial Killer, 48 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:48.000 Jillian Lauren delivers the harrowing report of her unusual relationship 49 00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:50.520 with a psychopath. But this is more than a deep 50 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:54.000 dive into the actions of Samuel Little. Lauren's riveting and 51 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:58.039 emotional accounts revealed the women who were lost to cold files, 52 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:01.439 giving Little's victims a check ants to have their stories 53 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:04.080 heard for the first time. The book that we're featuring 54 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:08.479 this evening is Behold the Monster, Confronting America's most prolific 55 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:12.439 serial killer, with my special guest, journalist and best selling author, 56 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:15.400 Jillian Lauren. Welcome to the program, and thank you so 57 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:18.639 much for this interview. Jillian Lauren, thank you for having me. 58 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:22.319 Thank you so much for this interview. Congratulations on this book, 59 00:03:22.439 --> 00:03:23.400 Behold the Monster. 60 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:29.000 Thank you so much. It has been a treacherous journey 61 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:36.240 in many ways and one of great enlightenment as well. 62 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:40.759 And I can't wait to see what this next incarnation 63 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:43.520 of it looks like I can't wait for it to 64 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:44.840 get out into the world. 65 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:49.800 Let's start with as you do. Los Angeles, October twenty seventeen. 66 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.039 You were writing a mystery novel, How to Sow a 67 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:56.960 Girl in Half, with reference to Elizabeth Short's famous murder. 68 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:00.199 You write that every col case in Los Angeles as 69 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:04.960 a custodial detective, tell us about legendary robbery Homicide Division 70 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:09.879 Cold Case Special Section detective Mitzi Roberts and what she 71 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:14.479 talked to you about, specifically a case that you became 72 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:16.240 ultimately involved with. 73 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:21.439 Yes, ultimately very involved with, entrenched with. But you missed 74 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:25.600 a piece there, Dan because you said Elizabeth Short, and 75 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:29.959 not everybody knows that that is the Black Dahlia, which 76 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:34.240 is probably the most famous cold case of all time. 77 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:41.959 A young white woman was found tortured, bisected, ex sanguinated 78 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:46.040 in a field in Lamarte Park in Los Angeles, and 79 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:49.920 the media went wild and it was never solved. There 80 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:54.839 are several applausible theories, but is it will never be 81 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:59.920 solved and the detective who took the case no one 82 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:04.879 and wants that case. Okay, no actual detective who's working 83 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:08.879 homicide wants to be the custodial detective of the black 84 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:11.720 Dahlia case, because it means you're going to get calls 85 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:15.399 every day from some kouk who thinks it was their dad, 86 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.920 and you're obligated to follow up on those tips. I 87 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:21.040 used to joke around the cops that I was just 88 00:05:21.079 --> 00:05:24.000 gonna call in a new Black Dahlia tip every day. 89 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:27.360 I was just gonna like call in the car. It's 90 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:30.759 just like I just you know, I know it was 91 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:34.480 my mother in law who killed a black Doahalia. But 92 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:38.480 what I got was an interview, and I got that 93 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:44.000 through writer Michael Connolly, who has served as a mentor 94 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:47.240 to me through my career. And I decided I was 95 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:49.959 going to do a departure. I was writing a novel, 96 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:53.600 and you know, in some ways, I was having a blast. 97 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:58.000 I was interviewing these detectives. I got this famous detective 98 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:01.160 do an interview with me through Michael. He was like, 99 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:04.600 she's okay, this one's all right. You can talk to her. 100 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:09.439 And at the very end of the interview, I said, 101 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:11.839 what are you most proud of and she said, I 102 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:14.360 am proud of them all. But I did catch this 103 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:19.759 serial killer once and that was pretty cool and that 104 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:22.560 was what sort of set me on the very beginning 105 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:23.519 of the Yellow Brick Road. 106 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:27.560 Tell us about this traveling down Yellow Brick Road and 107 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:31.759 this opportunity you say, of a lifetime, and also that 108 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:36.040 you landed in the middle of an ongoing investigation. Tell 109 00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:38.839 us more about what you learned about Samuel will Little 110 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:39.879 and this case. 111 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:43.439 Well, I was like, what serial killer? What are you 112 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:47.839 talking about? This is kind of my thing, So how 113 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:50.079 have I never heard of this guy? And she said, well, 114 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:55.480 you know, we nailed him in the late two thousands 115 00:06:55.480 --> 00:07:00.879 for three murders from three DNA hits. Working at the 116 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:05.759 Cold Case Special Section at Robbery Homicide Division, which is 117 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:10.439 the fancy LA detectives that you see on TV. That's them, 118 00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:16.519 Harry Bosch and Renee Ballard. Renee Ballard is actually Mitzi Roberts. 119 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:21.639 That's who the character is based on. And they're running evidence. 120 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:25.879 They're running old evidence on a Department of Justice grant 121 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:33.920 as forensic as DNA fingerprinting and forensic science advanced all 122 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:37.480 of a sudden, these cold cases that were so hard 123 00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:44.800 to connect through traditional gumshoeer because they were often stranger murders. Transience, 124 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:47.720 you know, how are you going to connect them. All 125 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:52.800 of a sudden, here comes this way. So they got one, two, three, 126 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:56.319 and then there was a manhunt across the country to 127 00:07:56.439 --> 00:08:00.680 catch this guy because is he still killing people? I mean? 128 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:04.800 And for how long? They ran his wrap sheet and 129 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:10.920 the DA, the Deputy DA, Beth Silverman, who prosecuted the 130 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:18.120 grim Sleeper Chester Turner, like almost every serial killer who 131 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:22.920 was operating in the eighties and nineties in Los Angeles, 132 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:25.600 said she'd never seen a rap. She liked it before 133 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:28.839 in her life. You know. He was arrested day after 134 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:32.960 day after day after day for petty theft, for assault 135 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:38.120 and for every well, and for murder and for kidnapping, 136 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:43.200 and got off again and again and again. So all together, 137 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:49.320 Samuel Little had a sixty year crime career, and almost 138 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:54.679 forty of it included serial killing, included sexual serial killing. 139 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:58.480 What do you do with this information? You talk about 140 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:02.159 New York Magazine talking to an editor there. What does 141 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:06.840 this book behold the monster? What did it first start off? 142 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:08.399 As well? 143 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:12.320 I just skip the step there because I skipped to 144 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:18.559 the amount of murders I knew many months later before 145 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:21.440 I started the case. All I knew was that there 146 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:25.200 were three. He was convicted for and that the detective 147 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:31.039 who had nailed him, and the deputy district Eternity and 148 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:34.120 many of the other detectives thought there were many more 149 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:38.080 murders across the country. I had no idea the scope 150 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:42.159 of the carnage when I started. I thought I'd write 151 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:46.840 an article. Maybe I'd turn up some evidence that there 152 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:51.879 were more Sam Little related murders across the country. I'd 153 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:56.519 get some heat on it, and then maybe local jurisdictions 154 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:02.519 would be inspired, or family members come forward, or you know, 155 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:07.759 would start to pursue these cold cases. Again. That was 156 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:10.240 really my goal. Like, I didn't go in there to 157 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:14.000 start solving murders. I didn't go in there to insert 158 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:18.799 myself into the middle of an FBI investigation. I wouldn't 159 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:21.960 recommend that to anybody. I went in to talk to 160 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:25.240 Sam Little, and I also thought, what a splashy story. 161 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:30.440 Here's an underreported serial killer. Maybe I can say, oh, 162 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:34.000 there are these other victims. If I can get this 163 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:37.159 guy talking. And that's kind of my thing, you know, 164 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:41.919 like if I have a superpower, that's sort of it, right, 165 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:45.840 And so I'm like, if anyone can do it, I can. 166 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:48.320 I Like, I can figure an angle into the sky. 167 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:53.720 I didn't take it lightly, you know. I studied what 168 00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:58.679 I was doing. I studied successful confessions of serial killers 169 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:03.399 in the past. I studied all kinds of interview techniques, 170 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:06.799 you know. I looked at the brilliant work of Hugh 171 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:11.159 Ainsworth and Steven Michau who did the interviews with Bundy 172 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:14.440 where they got him to confess in the third person, 173 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:18.960 and I, because you're so smart. I just read those 174 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:23.200 words of theirs over and over again. You're so smart, 175 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:27.679 you know, we bet you could analyze somebody like this right, 176 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.399 and then got him talking about himself that way. And 177 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.279 I was like, that was a turn of brilliance. Now 178 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:36.279 I had that in my back pocket, you know. I 179 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:39.159 had a few different ideas, but I was like, I'm 180 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:42.000 gonna I'm gonna get this guy talking. And then I thought, 181 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:44.720 you know, and if I can't, then I spent a 182 00:11:44.759 --> 00:11:48.679 lot of research, but not a ton. And I wrote 183 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.360 some letters to a serial killer and I'm gonna walk 184 00:11:51.399 --> 00:11:54.840 into a men's maximum security prison and I've never seen 185 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:57.759 one before, so let's give it a shot. And that's 186 00:11:57.799 --> 00:12:02.480 how it started. It didn't start with any possible idea 187 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:03.919 of what the horizons. 188 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:07.799 So tell us how you exactly contacted him before we 189 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:11.559 talk about your visit where he was in prisoned, and 190 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:15.039 talk about the actual meeting with Samuel Little. 191 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:20.080 So Samuel Little was incarcerated and had been there since 192 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:25.080 twenty fourteen, since his conviction at the California State Prison, 193 00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:28.600 Los Angeles, which is actually in Lancaster, which just about 194 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:30.639 an hour and a half from my house. And in 195 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:32.960 order to get in on a visiting day, you have 196 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:36.799 to leave it about four thirty in the morning. And 197 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.960 when I contacted Lori Abraham at New York Magazine and 198 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.480 I said, think I have this underreported serial killer that 199 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:48.000 I could maybe start contacting and maybe I get a 200 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.399 story out of. And she said, you know, we're not 201 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:54.600 going to just do some gruesome serial killer story. You know, 202 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:58.360 we're not doing something nationalist. We're not doing something exploitative 203 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:02.120 like come back at me with an angle. And I'm like, okay, 204 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:04.879 So I wasn't sure what that was yet, but I'm like, 205 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:07.320 here's my angle. I'm going to start writing some letters. 206 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:10.679 So I started writing letters, and you have to request 207 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:15.279 giving you all my professional secrets here. You need to request, 208 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:19.799 you know, visitors admission. And it takes about six months 209 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:22.799 to get one, and not only do you have to 210 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:26.840 request it, your inmates has to request it. So as 211 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:28.639 I waited for that to come through, I sort of 212 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:32.759 sort of slowly massaged a rapport with him and listen 213 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:39.200 to his professions of innocence, innocence, innocence, innocence, innocence, and 214 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:43.559 I just was waiting to get face to faced for 215 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:48.360 I started to contradict that, or to a challenge it 216 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:50.440 in any way, you know, But I said, you know, 217 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:53.399 I do think if you're innocent of these times, and 218 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:57.440 in fact, you're just a very unlucky guy who happened 219 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:01.759 to be at all of these places. That's you know, 220 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:04.720 just because my DNA was there does in me and 221 00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:07.440 I killed her just means I was there. I'm just 222 00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:10.600 an unlucky guy. But I mean he stopped all that 223 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:16.679 once he started confessing and began to really embrace his 224 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:19.799 crimes more than deny them. I mean, he was long 225 00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:22.960 past and he appeals, and he knew he was going 226 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:27.120 to die soon. He was no man so die famous 227 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:30.679 or die in obscurity, and I think he decided to 228 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:31.480 die famous. 229 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.720 Tell us about James Holland you call him some people 230 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:38.360 have called him the Space Cowboy. He's a Texas Ranger, 231 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:40.200 and only. 232 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:45.120 I called him the Space Cowboy. Okay, I'll only call him. 233 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:48.600 That's my personal nickname for him. I mean, one of 234 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:52.039 the things I do in the book is like reveal 235 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:55.759 my process right as a journalist, you know, I don't 236 00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:57.799 just say like, this is this and this happened. I'm like, 237 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:03.000 here's my journey of figuring out how this happened and 238 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:05.639 how to talk to these people. But one of the 239 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:09.600 ways I remember people remember their names. I give them 240 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:16.080 funny nicknames in my head. And when Texas Ranger James 241 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:20.840 Holland met Samuel Little Samuel would Little thought me and 242 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:23.559 text range James Halm was in the big tall hat 243 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:26.679 and the sinkle Peso star and the whole thing, and 244 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:29.919 sam All said, why do you use some kind of 245 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:33.039 cowboy from Mars? So then in my notes he became 246 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:36.720 the Space Cowboy. Then that winds in the book, and 247 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:38.480 you know, I think that's one of the things that 248 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:41.679 makes it unique, you know, is that it's a it's 249 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:45.600 an unfolding. So you asked me two things. What was 250 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:48.679 it like to meet sam What was it like to 251 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:55.799 meet Jim? Sometimes I think it wasn't that different. But 252 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:59.679 what it was like to meet Sam was there was 253 00:15:59.799 --> 00:16:05.960 so much, uh, there's drama and pressure the you know, 254 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:11.320 I mean, it's one of the largest men's maximum security facilities. 255 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:16.279 It's horribly overcrowded. I'm in the country, it's horribly overcrowded. 256 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:19.399 It is in the middle of the desert with this 257 00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:24.919 punishing atmosphere, and you walk, you know, you walk the 258 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:28.519 moms and their kids. You walk like about a mile 259 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:33.279 front a visitors parking lot to the visitors waiting center, 260 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:35.759 and you wait and you wait, you wait, wait, and 261 00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:38.960 then every single weekend it seems like there's a new 262 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:43.440 wardrobe something that you violated. You know, I had to 263 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:46.600 chew my own underwire out of my bra because there 264 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:51.320 are no sharp objects, there are no sharp objects available, 265 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:55.440 and the metal detector kept getting set off. So you know, 266 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.799 like there was that kind of dramatic experience getting into 267 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:04.480 the prison, getting into B block, you know, and then 268 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:08.319 have Sam little roll up to me in a wheelchair, 269 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.000 you know, and talk to me. It was two days 270 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:17.319 before he confessed, and you know, after about a total 271 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:25.000 of six hours conversation, and it would be so easy 272 00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:28.039 to say that you know, it was looking into the 273 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:32.319 eyes of evil, you know, which is what I think 274 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:36.279 that you know, they love in documentaries, you know, And 275 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:42.440 it wasn't It was like talking to human being who 276 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:49.920 I found sort of surprisingly challenging, surprisingly charming, surprisingly like 277 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:54.400 I mean, probably not at that point, not that early. 278 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:57.440 But I don't know if I've ever wanted to crawl 279 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:03.599 up over a table and kill someone myself that infuriating or. 280 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:08.319 Like, so he could bring me to such depths of 281 00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:14.480 it wasn't him, I know, Sam was an aberration. Like 282 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:18.200 the depths that he brought me to were the stories 283 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:21.640 of the victims and you know, and how he chose 284 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:23.240 them and how. 285 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:26.480 They were treated. You know, he chose them because no 286 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:30.960 one would care, and you know, the things they said 287 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:36.720 to him, and the way that he justified his crimes 288 00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:42.759 by his you know, asking for forgiveness, and so he 289 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:46.000 believed he was forgiven, like Saint Paul on the Road 290 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:51.559 to Damascus. And I just said, well, I'm not really 291 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:55.359 not sure that's how it works. I don't know, but 292 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:59.960 that I could crawl across this trade table and straight 293 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.240 angle you myself, you know. But I mean, frankly, most 294 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:07.839 of our conversations were were interesting. He was a fantastic 295 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:14.240 storyteller with an incredible, incredible recollection, which is something that 296 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:21.200 we shared. And he could really recollect times and and 297 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:25.079 bring things to life, like you know, the steel trade 298 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:30.000 in Lorain, Ohio, and the and the transgender clubs in 299 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:36.119 Miami in the seventies. And you know, I sort of 300 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:39.599 went on this journey around the country talking to victims' 301 00:19:39.640 --> 00:19:44.119 families and talking to law enforcement, and I thought, you 302 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:50.079 know that knowing somebody like Sam little who I mean, 303 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:55.160 evil is a tough word, but it is the takeaway, 304 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:58.720 you know that, you know the takeaway. He's dead now, 305 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:02.359 it's a couple of years, and still I wake up 306 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:05.680 and when I hear his voice in my head, it's 307 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:10.680 that takeaway. But that doesn't explain much about how he 308 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:15.599 got away with it, about how whole society, society participated 309 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:20.720 in it. Law enforcement and you know, everyone who looked away, 310 00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:27.799 you know, and and every institution that abused the little 311 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:33.359 boys who were in you know, reformed schools, and you know, 312 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:38.079 possibly like you know, flipped on all those genes that 313 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:42.839 were in there already. But you know, what would have 314 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:48.119 happened had not the abuse, had not the head trauma happened. 315 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:54.079 Who knows Sam says the same exact thing would have happened. 316 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.720 They said there was nothing that would have changed him. 317 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:00.519 Let's choose this as an opportunity to stop to hear 318 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:01.920 these messages. 319 00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:05.519 Lucky Land Casino asking people, what's the weirdest place you've 320 00:21:05.559 --> 00:21:06.240 gotten lucky? 321 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:09.319 Lucky? In line at the Delhi I guess ah, in 322 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:11.359 my dentist's office more than once. 323 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:13.039 Actually do I have to say? 324 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:13.440 Yes? 325 00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:13.759 You do? 326 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:16.440 In the car before my kid's pta meeting? 327 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:20.079 Really yes, excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 328 00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.839 I never win? And tell well, there you have it. 329 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:25.680 You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot 330 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:27.359 com play for free right now? 331 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:29.920 Are you feeling lucky? No, we're just necessary for my 332 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:31.799 law eighteen plus terms, conditions plus worts, every. 333 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:36.079 Details we haven't talked about, and you do explore in 334 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:40.759 this undertaking of this book. You talk about the origins 335 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:46.079 of some of the things that he coveted, is paraphilia especially, 336 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:50.039 so you go right back and it's fascinating when you 337 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:55.400 confront him with the model from inside Detective that was 338 00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:59.039 huge influence in his life and his life of crime 339 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:00.119 tell us. 340 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:05.640 Well, you know, Sam Little has a very developed narrative 341 00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:14.119 about how necks became his sexual fixation and strangulation became. 342 00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:17.519 As he would have said, you know how sex and 343 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.480 death got twisted up insighed him right. He doesn't know 344 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:24.400 God made him how he was, but that was true 345 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:27.759 and he knew it from the moment he started seeing. 346 00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:33.519 You see this among serial killers, violent pornography doesn't mean 347 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:36.079 a plus B equill see and everyone who looks at 348 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:38.920 violent pornography is going to turn into a serial killer. 349 00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:44.240 There really aren't that many of them statistically within the population, 350 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:49.519 but it does tend to be something that is commonality. 351 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:53.119 And there were these they weren't quite pornography, and you 352 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:55.359 could buy them. You could buy them at the corner store. 353 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:57.720 You could buy them at the five and dimes, was 354 00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:02.640 the seven eleven, and they were true detective or inside detective, 355 00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:06.759 and they showed I mean, I sort of couldn't believe 356 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:09.240 it when I you know, I started finding like vindage 357 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:12.079 magazine dealers and I was like, I'm going to find 358 00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:15.599 this one. This one. He was obsessed with these and 359 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:19.480 he would steal them. And there was this one story 360 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:25.000 about a woman named Gloria Fairy. Gloria Fairy ran off 361 00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:28.960 from her home where she was poor and abused when 362 00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:32.839 she was sixteen with her boyfriend who's much older than her, 363 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:37.079 and and then she tried to leave him. She went 364 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:41.720 to work at laundrying Cleveland. He strangled her to death 365 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:47.559 for the crime of leaving him and left her in 366 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:50.920 the park. And there were a couple of magazines that 367 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:54.559 featured this story, and Sam became obsessed, and he became 368 00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:58.559 obsessed with the picture, in particular of Gloria Fairy Blonde. 369 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:02.480 There was she was and pearls and had this very 370 00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:06.680 long neck. And he'd been looking in next since he 371 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:09.519 was five. And there was a little girl in class, 372 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:14.000 Carol Messenger, a little redhead girl who used to make 373 00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:17.119 funny faces at him, and he would fantasize about putting 374 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:19.799 his hands around her neck. And then there was a 375 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:23.640 teacher that he fantasized about in the third grade and 376 00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:26.480 her neck. And you know, he had this whole narrative 377 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:32.920 and sometimes, I would mean often always I questioned his 378 00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:38.839 veracity and his narratives were so colorful, and you know, 379 00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:42.640 so I checked, I checked my work. And one of 380 00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:44.799 the things that made me think that maybe this whole 381 00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:48.720 thing was made up. Was Carol Messenger the little Redhead Girl. 382 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:51.599 And I was just thinking, who's the little redhead girl? 383 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:54.279 What does that sound like? And I was like, that's 384 00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:59.079 Charlie Brown. That's the crush in Charlie Brown, that's the 385 00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:02.680 crushing piece. Nuts is the little redhead girl. And I 386 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:06.359 was like, did he make a whole thing up? Except 387 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:12.680 that no, I've corroborated it. And also I found these magazines. 388 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:17.160 I found nineteen fifty four Inside Detective, nineteen fifty five 389 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:21.960 True Detective. Maybe switch those around, I'm not sure one 390 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:24.960 or the other. I found two and there was a 391 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:29.799 story of Gloria Faria and there was the picture he described. 392 00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:33.160 So by the time I brought him that picture, he 393 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:37.039 was already in Texas. He was confessing to the FBI 394 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:41.359 he'd been extra guided to Texas. He was in a 395 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:47.440 sheriff he was in a county jail in Wise County. 396 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:50.319 I mean, I sort of couldn't believe it. I was like, 397 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:54.960 what this looks. There's less there's more security at my 398 00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:59.319 kids high school. And I did get to go and 399 00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:03.559 interview there and I showed him the Gloria Fairy pictures. 400 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:08.720 And he was just like where did you get these? 401 00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:12.039