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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in True crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about him Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, BTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 4: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 5: Jillian Lauren had no idea what she was getting into
Speaker 5: when she wrote her first letter to prolific serial killer
Speaker 5: Samuel Little. All she knew was her research had led
Speaker 5: her to believe that he was good for far more
Speaker 5: murders than the three for which he had been convicted.
Speaker 5: While the two extra changed dozens of letters and embarked
Speaker 5: on hundreds of hours of interviews, Lauren gained the trusts
Speaker 5: of a monster. After maintaining his innocence for decades, Little
Speaker 5: confessed to the murders of ninety three women, often drawing
Speaker 5: his victims in haunting detail as he spoke, how could
Speaker 5: one man evade justice? Manipulating the system for over four decades,
Speaker 5: as the FBI, the DOJ, the LAPD, and countless law
Speaker 5: enforcement officials across the country worked to connect their coal
Speaker 5: cases with the confessions. Lauren's coverage of the investigations and
Speaker 5: obsession with Little's victims only escalated. New York Times bestselling
Speaker 5: author and lead of the Stars docuseries Confronting a serial Killer,
Speaker 5: Jillian Lauren delivers the harrowing report of her unusual relationship
Speaker 5: with a psychopath. But this is more than a deep
Speaker 5: dive into the actions of Samuel Little. Lauren's riveting and
Speaker 5: emotional accounts revealed the women who were lost to cold files,
Speaker 5: giving Little's victims a check ants to have their stories
Speaker 5: heard for the first time. The book that we're featuring
Speaker 5: this evening is Behold the Monster, Confronting America's most prolific
Speaker 5: serial killer, with my special guest, journalist and best selling author,
Speaker 5: Jillian Lauren. Welcome to the program, and thank you so
Speaker 5: much for this interview. Jillian Lauren, thank you for having me.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for this interview. Congratulations on this book,
Speaker 5: Behold the Monster.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It has been a treacherous journey
Speaker 2: in many ways and one of great enlightenment as well.
Speaker 2: And I can't wait to see what this next incarnation
Speaker 2: of it looks like I can't wait for it to
Speaker 2: get out into the world.
Speaker 5: Let's start with as you do. Los Angeles, October twenty seventeen.
Speaker 5: You were writing a mystery novel, How to Sow a
Speaker 5: Girl in Half, with reference to Elizabeth Short's famous murder.
Speaker 5: You write that every col case in Los Angeles as
Speaker 5: a custodial detective, tell us about legendary robbery Homicide Division
Speaker 5: Cold Case Special Section detective Mitzi Roberts and what she
Speaker 5: talked to you about, specifically a case that you became
Speaker 5: ultimately involved with.
Speaker 2: Yes, ultimately very involved with, entrenched with. But you missed
Speaker 2: a piece there, Dan because you said Elizabeth Short, and
Speaker 2: not everybody knows that that is the Black Dahlia, which
Speaker 2: is probably the most famous cold case of all time.
Speaker 2: A young white woman was found tortured, bisected, ex sanguinated
Speaker 2: in a field in Lamarte Park in Los Angeles, and
Speaker 2: the media went wild and it was never solved. There
Speaker 2: are several applausible theories, but is it will never be
Speaker 2: solved and the detective who took the case no one
Speaker 2: and wants that case. Okay, no actual detective who's working
Speaker 2: homicide wants to be the custodial detective of the black
Speaker 2: Dahlia case, because it means you're going to get calls
Speaker 2: every day from some kouk who thinks it was their dad,
Speaker 2: and you're obligated to follow up on those tips. I
Speaker 2: used to joke around the cops that I was just
Speaker 2: gonna call in a new Black Dahlia tip every day.
Speaker 2: I was just gonna like call in the car. It's
Speaker 2: just like I just you know, I know it was
Speaker 2: my mother in law who killed a black Doahalia. But
Speaker 2: what I got was an interview, and I got that
Speaker 2: through writer Michael Connolly, who has served as a mentor
Speaker 2: to me through my career. And I decided I was
Speaker 2: going to do a departure. I was writing a novel,
Speaker 2: and you know, in some ways, I was having a blast.
Speaker 2: I was interviewing these detectives. I got this famous detective
Speaker 2: do an interview with me through Michael. He was like,
Speaker 2: she's okay, this one's all right. You can talk to her.
Speaker 2: And at the very end of the interview, I said,
Speaker 2: what are you most proud of and she said, I
Speaker 2: am proud of them all. But I did catch this
Speaker 2: serial killer once and that was pretty cool and that
Speaker 2: was what sort of set me on the very beginning
Speaker 2: of the Yellow Brick Road.
Speaker 5: Tell us about this traveling down Yellow Brick Road and
Speaker 5: this opportunity you say, of a lifetime, and also that
Speaker 5: you landed in the middle of an ongoing investigation. Tell
Speaker 5: us more about what you learned about Samuel will Little
Speaker 5: and this case.
Speaker 2: Well, I was like, what serial killer? What are you
Speaker 2: talking about? This is kind of my thing, So how
Speaker 2: have I never heard of this guy? And she said, well,
Speaker 2: you know, we nailed him in the late two thousands
Speaker 2: for three murders from three DNA hits. Working at the
Speaker 2: Cold Case Special Section at Robbery Homicide Division, which is
Speaker 2: the fancy LA detectives that you see on TV. That's them,
Speaker 2: Harry Bosch and Renee Ballard. Renee Ballard is actually Mitzi Roberts.
Speaker 2: That's who the character is based on. And they're running evidence.
Speaker 2: They're running old evidence on a Department of Justice grant
Speaker 2: as forensic as DNA fingerprinting and forensic science advanced all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, these cold cases that were so hard
Speaker 2: to connect through traditional gumshoeer because they were often stranger murders. Transience,
Speaker 2: you know, how are you going to connect them. All
Speaker 2: of a sudden, here comes this way. So they got one, two, three,
Speaker 2: and then there was a manhunt across the country to
Speaker 2: catch this guy because is he still killing people? I mean?
Speaker 2: And for how long? They ran his wrap sheet and
Speaker 2: the DA, the Deputy DA, Beth Silverman, who prosecuted the
Speaker 2: grim Sleeper Chester Turner, like almost every serial killer who
Speaker 2: was operating in the eighties and nineties in Los Angeles,
Speaker 2: said she'd never seen a rap. She liked it before
Speaker 2: in her life. You know. He was arrested day after
Speaker 2: day after day after day for petty theft, for assault
Speaker 2: and for every well, and for murder and for kidnapping,
Speaker 2: and got off again and again and again. So all together,
Speaker 2: Samuel Little had a sixty year crime career, and almost
Speaker 2: forty of it included serial killing, included sexual serial killing.
Speaker 5: What do you do with this information? You talk about
Speaker 5: New York Magazine talking to an editor there. What does
Speaker 5: this book behold the monster? What did it first start off?
Speaker 5: As well?
Speaker 2: I just skip the step there because I skipped to
Speaker 2: the amount of murders I knew many months later before
Speaker 2: I started the case. All I knew was that there
Speaker 2: were three. He was convicted for and that the detective
Speaker 2: who had nailed him, and the deputy district Eternity and
Speaker 2: many of the other detectives thought there were many more
Speaker 2: murders across the country. I had no idea the scope
Speaker 2: of the carnage when I started. I thought I'd write
Speaker 2: an article. Maybe I'd turn up some evidence that there
Speaker 2: were more Sam Little related murders across the country. I'd
Speaker 2: get some heat on it, and then maybe local jurisdictions
Speaker 2: would be inspired, or family members come forward, or you know,
Speaker 2: would start to pursue these cold cases. Again. That was
Speaker 2: really my goal. Like, I didn't go in there to
Speaker 2: start solving murders. I didn't go in there to insert
Speaker 2: myself into the middle of an FBI investigation. I wouldn't
Speaker 2: recommend that to anybody. I went in to talk to
Speaker 2: Sam Little, and I also thought, what a splashy story.
Speaker 2: Here's an underreported serial killer. Maybe I can say, oh,
Speaker 2: there are these other victims. If I can get this
Speaker 2: guy talking. And that's kind of my thing, you know,
Speaker 2: like if I have a superpower, that's sort of it, right,
Speaker 2: And so I'm like, if anyone can do it, I can.
Speaker 2: I Like, I can figure an angle into the sky.
Speaker 2: I didn't take it lightly, you know. I studied what
Speaker 2: I was doing. I studied successful confessions of serial killers
Speaker 2: in the past. I studied all kinds of interview techniques,
Speaker 2: you know. I looked at the brilliant work of Hugh
Speaker 2: Ainsworth and Steven Michau who did the interviews with Bundy
Speaker 2: where they got him to confess in the third person,
Speaker 2: and I, because you're so smart. I just read those
Speaker 2: words of theirs over and over again. You're so smart,
Speaker 2: you know, we bet you could analyze somebody like this right,
Speaker 2: and then got him talking about himself that way. And
Speaker 2: I was like, that was a turn of brilliance. Now
Speaker 2: I had that in my back pocket, you know. I
Speaker 2: had a few different ideas, but I was like, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna I'm gonna get this guy talking. And then I thought,
Speaker 2: you know, and if I can't, then I spent a
Speaker 2: lot of research, but not a ton. And I wrote
Speaker 2: some letters to a serial killer and I'm gonna walk
Speaker 2: into a men's maximum security prison and I've never seen
Speaker 2: one before, so let's give it a shot. And that's
Speaker 2: how it started. It didn't start with any possible idea
Speaker 2: of what the horizons.
Speaker 5: So tell us how you exactly contacted him before we
Speaker 5: talk about your visit where he was in prisoned, and
Speaker 5: talk about the actual meeting with Samuel Little.
Speaker 2: So Samuel Little was incarcerated and had been there since
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, since his conviction at the California State Prison,
Speaker 2: Los Angeles, which is actually in Lancaster, which just about
Speaker 2: an hour and a half from my house. And in
Speaker 2: order to get in on a visiting day, you have
Speaker 2: to leave it about four thirty in the morning. And
Speaker 2: when I contacted Lori Abraham at New York Magazine and
Speaker 2: I said, think I have this underreported serial killer that
Speaker 2: I could maybe start contacting and maybe I get a
Speaker 2: story out of. And she said, you know, we're not
Speaker 2: going to just do some gruesome serial killer story. You know,
Speaker 2: we're not doing something nationalist. We're not doing something exploitative
Speaker 2: like come back at me with an angle. And I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: So I wasn't sure what that was yet, but I'm like,
Speaker 2: here's my angle. I'm going to start writing some letters.
Speaker 2: So I started writing letters, and you have to request
Speaker 2: giving you all my professional secrets here. You need to request,
Speaker 2: you know, visitors admission. And it takes about six months
Speaker 2: to get one, and not only do you have to
Speaker 2: request it, your inmates has to request it. So as
Speaker 2: I waited for that to come through, I sort of
Speaker 2: sort of slowly massaged a rapport with him and listen
Speaker 2: to his professions of innocence, innocence, innocence, innocence, innocence, and
Speaker 2: I just was waiting to get face to faced for
Speaker 2: I started to contradict that, or to a challenge it
Speaker 2: in any way, you know, But I said, you know,
Speaker 2: I do think if you're innocent of these times, and
Speaker 2: in fact, you're just a very unlucky guy who happened
Speaker 2: to be at all of these places. That's you know,
Speaker 2: just because my DNA was there does in me and
Speaker 2: I killed her just means I was there. I'm just
Speaker 2: an unlucky guy. But I mean he stopped all that
Speaker 2: once he started confessing and began to really embrace his
Speaker 2: crimes more than deny them. I mean, he was long
Speaker 2: past and he appeals, and he knew he was going
Speaker 2: to die soon. He was no man so die famous
Speaker 2: or die in obscurity, and I think he decided to
Speaker 2: die famous.
Speaker 5: Tell us about James Holland you call him some people
Speaker 5: have called him the Space Cowboy. He's a Texas Ranger,
Speaker 5: and only.
Speaker 2: I called him the Space Cowboy. Okay, I'll only call him.
Speaker 2: That's my personal nickname for him. I mean, one of
Speaker 2: the things I do in the book is like reveal
Speaker 2: my process right as a journalist, you know, I don't
Speaker 2: just say like, this is this and this happened. I'm like,
Speaker 2: here's my journey of figuring out how this happened and
Speaker 2: how to talk to these people. But one of the
Speaker 2: ways I remember people remember their names. I give them
Speaker 2: funny nicknames in my head. And when Texas Ranger James
Speaker 2: Holland met Samuel Little Samuel would Little thought me and
Speaker 2: text range James Halm was in the big tall hat
Speaker 2: and the sinkle Peso star and the whole thing, and
Speaker 2: sam All said, why do you use some kind of
Speaker 2: cowboy from Mars? So then in my notes he became
Speaker 2: the Space Cowboy. Then that winds in the book, and
Speaker 2: you know, I think that's one of the things that
Speaker 2: makes it unique, you know, is that it's a it's
Speaker 2: an unfolding. So you asked me two things. What was
Speaker 2: it like to meet sam What was it like to
Speaker 2: meet Jim? Sometimes I think it wasn't that different. But
Speaker 2: what it was like to meet Sam was there was
Speaker 2: so much, uh, there's drama and pressure the you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's one of the largest men's maximum security facilities.
Speaker 2: It's horribly overcrowded. I'm in the country, it's horribly overcrowded.
Speaker 2: It is in the middle of the desert with this
Speaker 2: punishing atmosphere, and you walk, you know, you walk the
Speaker 2: moms and their kids. You walk like about a mile
Speaker 2: front a visitors parking lot to the visitors waiting center,
Speaker 2: and you wait and you wait, you wait, wait, and
Speaker 2: then every single weekend it seems like there's a new
Speaker 2: wardrobe something that you violated. You know, I had to
Speaker 2: chew my own underwire out of my bra because there
Speaker 2: are no sharp objects, there are no sharp objects available,
Speaker 2: and the metal detector kept getting set off. So you know,
Speaker 2: like there was that kind of dramatic experience getting into
Speaker 2: the prison, getting into B block, you know, and then
Speaker 2: have Sam little roll up to me in a wheelchair,
Speaker 2: you know, and talk to me. It was two days
Speaker 2: before he confessed, and you know, after about a total
Speaker 2: of six hours conversation, and it would be so easy
Speaker 2: to say that you know, it was looking into the
Speaker 2: eyes of evil, you know, which is what I think
Speaker 2: that you know, they love in documentaries, you know, And
Speaker 2: it wasn't It was like talking to human being who
Speaker 2: I found sort of surprisingly challenging, surprisingly charming, surprisingly like
Speaker 2: I mean, probably not at that point, not that early.
Speaker 2: But I don't know if I've ever wanted to crawl
Speaker 2: up over a table and kill someone myself that infuriating or.
Speaker 6: Like, so he could bring me to such depths of
Speaker 6: it wasn't him, I know, Sam was an aberration. Like
Speaker 6: the depths that he brought me to were the stories
Speaker 6: of the victims and you know, and how he chose
Speaker 6: them and how.
Speaker 2: They were treated. You know, he chose them because no
Speaker 2: one would care, and you know, the things they said
Speaker 2: to him, and the way that he justified his crimes
Speaker 2: by his you know, asking for forgiveness, and so he
Speaker 2: believed he was forgiven, like Saint Paul on the Road
Speaker 2: to Damascus. And I just said, well, I'm not really
Speaker 2: not sure that's how it works. I don't know, but
Speaker 2: that I could crawl across this trade table and straight
Speaker 2: angle you myself, you know. But I mean, frankly, most
Speaker 2: of our conversations were were interesting. He was a fantastic
Speaker 2: storyteller with an incredible, incredible recollection, which is something that
Speaker 2: we shared. And he could really recollect times and and
Speaker 2: bring things to life, like you know, the steel trade
Speaker 2: in Lorain, Ohio, and the and the transgender clubs in
Speaker 2: Miami in the seventies. And you know, I sort of
Speaker 2: went on this journey around the country talking to victims'
Speaker 2: families and talking to law enforcement, and I thought, you
Speaker 2: know that knowing somebody like Sam little who I mean,
Speaker 2: evil is a tough word, but it is the takeaway,
Speaker 2: you know that, you know the takeaway. He's dead now,
Speaker 2: it's a couple of years, and still I wake up
Speaker 2: and when I hear his voice in my head, it's
Speaker 2: that takeaway. But that doesn't explain much about how he
Speaker 2: got away with it, about how whole society, society participated
Speaker 2: in it. Law enforcement and you know, everyone who looked away,
Speaker 2: you know, and and every institution that abused the little
Speaker 2: boys who were in you know, reformed schools, and you know,
Speaker 2: possibly like you know, flipped on all those genes that
Speaker 2: were in there already. But you know, what would have
Speaker 2: happened had not the abuse, had not the head trauma happened.
Speaker 2: Who knows Sam says the same exact thing would have happened.
Speaker 2: They said there was nothing that would have changed him.
Speaker 5: Let's choose this as an opportunity to stop to hear
Speaker 5: these messages.
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Speaker 5: Details we haven't talked about, and you do explore in
Speaker 5: this undertaking of this book. You talk about the origins
Speaker 5: of some of the things that he coveted, is paraphilia especially,
Speaker 5: so you go right back and it's fascinating when you
Speaker 5: confront him with the model from inside Detective that was
Speaker 5: huge influence in his life and his life of crime
Speaker 5: tell us.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, Sam Little has a very developed narrative
Speaker 2: about how necks became his sexual fixation and strangulation became.
Speaker 2: As he would have said, you know how sex and
Speaker 2: death got twisted up insighed him right. He doesn't know
Speaker 2: God made him how he was, but that was true
Speaker 2: and he knew it from the moment he started seeing.
Speaker 2: You see this among serial killers, violent pornography doesn't mean
Speaker 2: a plus B equill see and everyone who looks at
Speaker 2: violent pornography is going to turn into a serial killer.
Speaker 2: There really aren't that many of them statistically within the population,
Speaker 2: but it does tend to be something that is commonality.
Speaker 2: And there were these they weren't quite pornography, and you
Speaker 2: could buy them. You could buy them at the corner store.
Speaker 2: You could buy them at the five and dimes, was
Speaker 2: the seven eleven, and they were true detective or inside detective,
Speaker 2: and they showed I mean, I sort of couldn't believe
Speaker 2: it when I you know, I started finding like vindage
Speaker 2: magazine dealers and I was like, I'm going to find
Speaker 2: this one. This one. He was obsessed with these and
Speaker 2: he would steal them. And there was this one story
Speaker 2: about a woman named Gloria Fairy. Gloria Fairy ran off
Speaker 2: from her home where she was poor and abused when
Speaker 2: she was sixteen with her boyfriend who's much older than her,
Speaker 2: and and then she tried to leave him. She went
Speaker 2: to work at laundrying Cleveland. He strangled her to death
Speaker 2: for the crime of leaving him and left her in
Speaker 2: the park. And there were a couple of magazines that
Speaker 2: featured this story, and Sam became obsessed, and he became
Speaker 2: obsessed with the picture, in particular of Gloria Fairy Blonde.
Speaker 2: There was she was and pearls and had this very
Speaker 2: long neck. And he'd been looking in next since he
Speaker 2: was five. And there was a little girl in class,
Speaker 2: Carol Messenger, a little redhead girl who used to make
Speaker 2: funny faces at him, and he would fantasize about putting
Speaker 2: his hands around her neck. And then there was a
Speaker 2: teacher that he fantasized about in the third grade and
Speaker 2: her neck. And you know, he had this whole narrative
Speaker 2: and sometimes, I would mean often always I questioned his
Speaker 2: veracity and his narratives were so colorful, and you know,
Speaker 2: so I checked, I checked my work. And one of
Speaker 2: the things that made me think that maybe this whole
Speaker 2: thing was made up. Was Carol Messenger the little Redhead Girl.
Speaker 2: And I was just thinking, who's the little redhead girl?
Speaker 2: What does that sound like? And I was like, that's
Speaker 2: Charlie Brown. That's the crush in Charlie Brown, that's the
Speaker 2: crushing piece. Nuts is the little redhead girl. And I
Speaker 2: was like, did he make a whole thing up? Except
Speaker 2: that no, I've corroborated it. And also I found these magazines.
Speaker 2: I found nineteen fifty four Inside Detective, nineteen fifty five
Speaker 2: True Detective. Maybe switch those around, I'm not sure one
Speaker 2: or the other. I found two and there was a
Speaker 2: story of Gloria Faria and there was the picture he described.
Speaker 2: So by the time I brought him that picture, he
Speaker 2: was already in Texas. He was confessing to the FBI
Speaker 2: he'd been extra guided to Texas. He was in a
Speaker 2: sheriff he was in a county jail in Wise County.
Speaker 2: I mean, I sort of couldn't believe it. I was like,
Speaker 2: what this looks. There's less there's more security at my
Speaker 2: kids high school. And I did get to go and
Speaker 2: interview there and I showed him the Gloria Fairy pictures.
Speaker 2: And he was just like where did you get these?
Speaker 2: And where did you like? How? And I was like,
Speaker 2: you want them? You know, you want these pictures? Well,
Speaker 2: then you know I want things too, I mean, And
Speaker 2: that is what it was always like with Sam and me.
Speaker 2: You know, he was like, I want a TV. I
Speaker 2: was like, cool, I want things to you know, I
Speaker 2: want a story.
Speaker 5: You push him finally, you say you're sick of the BS,
Speaker 5: and so you say you wanted something. You wanted to
Speaker 5: know things like how did it feel to kill? You
Speaker 5: wanted to know some serious things, and you wanted some
Speaker 5: serious information from him.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So when I when I got those magazines and
Speaker 2: when I was able to make copies and get in
Speaker 2: the pictures he wanted and set of vile thing to do.
Speaker 2: Perhaps I don't know, but I said, tell me about
Speaker 2: Denise and Odessa you and you know it gave me
Speaker 2: one of the more detailed stories I've gotten from him. It's,
Speaker 2: you know, one of my favorite chapters in the book.
Speaker 2: Although I can't read it, I really I don't know
Speaker 2: if I can read it again. As many times as
Speaker 2: I've been over it and copy edited it, you know,
Speaker 2: and quoted it and showed it to people. There was
Speaker 2: a moment a few days ago and I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't think I can read the Denise chapter on tour.
Speaker 2: I don't think I could look at it again. It
Speaker 2: was just, you know, it was told to me in
Speaker 2: such detail. And it was also going back to the
Speaker 2: Texas Ranger. Texas Ranger James Holland, who is this sort
Speaker 2: of legendary you know, serial killer whisperer and works multi
Speaker 2: jurisdictionally within Texas. But if he has a Texas case
Speaker 2: that's connected to a case in another state, that gives
Speaker 2: him jurisdiction there as well. So he was able to
Speaker 2: locate the Denise Brother's case and that is what brought
Speaker 2: him to sam Now Texas Ranger James Allen and I
Speaker 2: happened to come upon the same serial killer at the
Speaker 2: same time. So that was how I got involved in
Speaker 2: the FBI investigation.
Speaker 5: Now, the thing is is that at one point Samuel
Speaker 5: Little confesses and says that he has killed ninety three women.
Speaker 5: So the task for the FBI, James Holland, and for
Speaker 5: you as well is to get confirmation somehow.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that's also for local jurisdictions, right, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean I'm not a detective. So although that did
Speaker 2: turn out that did turn out to happen, it's not
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't go in as a citizen sleuth, right,
Speaker 2: you know. I went in as a journalist, and it
Speaker 2: just so happened that as he was confessing to me.
Speaker 2: You know, there were a number of cases where I
Speaker 2: was asking unusual questions and I would get details that
Speaker 2: perhaps the cops weren't getting. So I was communicating with
Speaker 2: law enforcement about the conversations we had about particular murders,
Speaker 2: and there were a handful that my details were the
Speaker 2: lynchpin that sought the case. But I didn't, you know,
Speaker 2: go in there to go solve murders. I just started
Speaker 2: to learn as I went.
Speaker 5: So it's an interesting relationship you have because the Texas
Speaker 5: Ranger and the FBI are cautioning you, but at the
Speaker 5: same time they're respecting your journalism and its effect and
Speaker 5: also the results that you garnered from the interviews with
Speaker 5: Samuel Little.
Speaker 2: Yes, and the LAPD as well, and like I said,
Speaker 2: and local jurisdictions. No, I had really amazing experiences with
Speaker 2: detectives across the country, and there are detectives, you know,
Speaker 2: in small jurisdictions, who are the only cold case department
Speaker 2: there is. I've asked as I, well, how many people
Speaker 2: are in your cold case department? Me, you know, on
Speaker 2: my spare time so much of the time. It's a
Speaker 2: work of passion for detectives, these people who didn't get justice,
Speaker 2: and they tend to be the good ones, so you know.
Speaker 2: And I also interviewed people who you know, and law
Speaker 2: enforcement officers who ignored the claims of marginalized women in
Speaker 2: the eighties, and and you know, you know, I did
Speaker 2: more confrontational interviews as well, but I was helped by
Speaker 2: local cops all across the country at the FBI and
Speaker 2: I I mean, you know, journalists and law enforcement have
Speaker 2: a classically tense relationship because my job is to is
Speaker 2: to find stuff out, you know, my job is to
Speaker 2: hold people accountable. And law enforcement tends to be a
Speaker 2: very cloistered community. And they would I try to like
Speaker 2: you just go away and let them do your job.
Speaker 2: Let them do their job. I mean, they said as
Speaker 2: much to me, you know, like, thank you, young lady
Speaker 2: for your help. Go Why don't you go let law
Speaker 2: enforcement do their job and stay in your lane. I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry, but I'm dug in here, you know,
Speaker 2: and I have an exclusive with a serial killer who's
Speaker 2: in the middle of ninety three confessions. Now, those ninety
Speaker 2: three confessions weren't to me, you know, I would be
Speaker 2: maybe in the thirties I would say, I got, you know,
Speaker 2: of like detailed confessions from him. He was confessing to
Speaker 2: law enforcement, and I was focusing on cases in it.
Speaker 2: I was doing a deeper dive. Wasn't my goal to
Speaker 2: get every single confession out of him that was already
Speaker 2: being done.
Speaker 5: How many were confirmed soon and then how many were
Speaker 5: confirmed shortly after? Or Out of those ninety three, about.
Speaker 2: Thirty five confirmed very quickly, which was one of the
Speaker 2: things that really and I saw the process of how
Speaker 2: they confirmed it and how precise and meticulous they were
Speaker 2: about it, you know. And this includes the data analyst,
Speaker 2: doctor Christy Palazolo from the FBI, and doctor Angela Williamson
Speaker 2: from the DOJ. It wasn't just Texas Ranger James Holland
Speaker 2: and local pds that, you know. I was convinced that
Speaker 2: they were doing their work and doing it properly. And
Speaker 2: thirty five happened fast. I mean, now it's twenty twenty
Speaker 2: three and we're at sixty three, sixty three, I believe,
Speaker 2: and I just got to move. I have a map
Speaker 2: with pins in it that I made at the beginning
Speaker 2: because it was so hard to sort of imagine the carnage.
Speaker 2: And also I wanted to see his pattern across the
Speaker 2: United States because he you know, he was he was
Speaker 2: a drifter. He was a traveler. He traveled mostly on
Speaker 2: the ten back and forth across the United States, theft
Speaker 2: by day, murder by night. So I made this map
Speaker 2: and the red pins in it are for the victims
Speaker 2: that I know that are still unsolved, and the black
Speaker 2: pins are solves. And I got to change one out
Speaker 2: the other week. And it's been it's been a while.
Speaker 2: And believe that this book coming out, you know, I
Speaker 2: have the most comprehensive list of Sam Little's victims that
Speaker 2: I know of out there. It's all in the book.
Speaker 2: I believe that we're going to see salves. You know,
Speaker 2: we're going to see action and also awareness and hopefully,
Speaker 2: you know, I'll entertain you and grab you from the
Speaker 2: first page to the last, because that's how you get
Speaker 2: people to care.
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Speaker 5: what we you write about is incredible. Some there are
Speaker 5: living victims. There are some victims that escaped the clutches
Speaker 5: of Samuel Little and specifically a woman that fought him,
Speaker 5: and you you write that boxed him, also that you
Speaker 5: had alluded to it and or you had mentioned it.
Speaker 5: But you go explore how on earth this guy, even
Speaker 5: though he was a major suspect in so many of
Speaker 5: these murders, that even with grand jury indictments, those failed
Speaker 5: trials failed, even with living victims like the one you chronicle.
Speaker 5: Leela McLain Bowlegs, can can you tell us just this
Speaker 5: incredible story that really demonstrates and illustrates what Samuel Little
Speaker 5: was all about?
Speaker 2: Well, there were four victims who survived Samuel Little's attacks.
Speaker 2: The first two were Hilden Nelson and leidlal McLean in
Speaker 2: Pasca Goola, Mississippi. Pascagoula, Mississippi in the late eighties was
Speaker 2: on fire. There was an area, it's a rural part
Speaker 2: of Mississippi. There was an area called Carver Village where
Speaker 2: you could get anything you wanted. On half of the
Speaker 2: street was the front, and on the other half of
Speaker 2: the street was the projects. And on the front was
Speaker 2: where there were pool halls and juke joints and music
Speaker 2: and prostitutes and guns and drugs and teas and blues
Speaker 2: and anything you wanted all night long, and people had
Speaker 2: come from all over the South to come to Carver Village. Now,
Speaker 2: the women who lived in the projects often worked as prostitutes.
Speaker 2: And the two women who survived there, the first one
Speaker 2: Hilden Nelson, who is the woman who I interview in
Speaker 2: my book. I have the only interview with her, only
Speaker 2: interview she ever gave. She and her friends had a
Speaker 2: pact that you know, if you walked up into your
Speaker 2: room with a man and it took longer than fifteen minutes,
Speaker 2: somebody would come, and there was they were breeze ways,
Speaker 2: you know, like walkways, like two story buildings walkways. Somebody
Speaker 2: would come and knock on your door. And so her
Speaker 2: best friend came and knocked on her door, and a
Speaker 2: man's voice answered, like, she's fine, she's handling her business.
Speaker 2: But that wasn't their deal. So Dolores was her friend's name,
Speaker 2: walked around the back and they had window fans. You know,
Speaker 2: it was hot Mississippi, it was a summer. She kicked
Speaker 2: in the window fan and Sam was strangling Hilda in
Speaker 2: the bathtub with a scarf and drowning her. And Sam
Speaker 2: just stood up and walked out. And so she was
Speaker 2: saved by her friend. Now, she didn't report this, but
Speaker 2: words started to get around amongst the women, and just
Speaker 2: a few years later, Sam picked up five foot two
Speaker 2: inch spark plug named Layla McClain who ran Pool Hall,
Speaker 2: which was in the back was a brothel where you
Speaker 2: would rent rooms. And she was also a prostitute. And
Speaker 2: she got in a car with Sam and she told
Speaker 2: him where to go, and he's like, no, I'm going
Speaker 2: somewhere else. And she immediately saw that he was not
Speaker 2: going where he said he was going. And this woman
Speaker 2: is the only woman who fought him off out of
Speaker 2: ninety three. I mean, plenty of women fought him and
Speaker 2: she just I mean at the trial she said, I
Speaker 2: learned to box because I had too many step brothers.
Speaker 2: She took her foot and put it on the gas
Speaker 2: and took the wheel and tried to drive the car
Speaker 2: into a wall, and then she boxed him. I mean,
Speaker 2: they said how many doors were in that car? Said,
Speaker 2: I know there were four because I was in and
Speaker 2: out of them so many times. You know, like I ran,
Speaker 2: he grabbed me, I ran, he grabbed me. Finally she
Speaker 2: got away. She ran across four lanes of traffic and
Speaker 2: the shipyards that were there were getting out. It was
Speaker 2: a change of shift.
Speaker 1: I was there.
Speaker 2: I stood there like it was crazy. Four lanes of
Speaker 2: traffic and it was so long, and she ran, she
Speaker 2: ran back to the front, and she tripped over some
Speaker 2: man who's peeing in the bushes. Smokey Joe was peeing
Speaker 2: in the bushes, and he grabbed her and dragged her
Speaker 2: to the front, and they took her to the hospital
Speaker 2: where she stayed for three days. Many men, many years
Speaker 2: later she lived to testify about it, though she tried
Speaker 2: before that. And you know, I will just never forget
Speaker 2: them saying you showed up at a hospital with particular
Speaker 2: hemorrhaging in your eyes, which is what happens when you're strangled.
Speaker 2: It's the blood vessels and your eyes break, and you know,
Speaker 2: and you couldn't speak for three days, and you had
Speaker 2: bruises around your neck, and you'd been hitting the head
Speaker 2: so many times you couldn't see. Did you report what
Speaker 2: happened to you? And she said no, ma'am. And the
Speaker 2: prosecutor said, let me put this another way. Did any
Speaker 2: doctor ask you what happened to you? And she said no, ma'am.
Speaker 2: And she said, well, why didn't you report it? Why
Speaker 2: didn't you talk to them afterward? And she said, well,
Speaker 2: I'm going to walk down to the police station in Pascagoula, Mississippi,
Speaker 2: and said I was working as a prostitute and I
Speaker 2: was assaulted. I'd wind up in jail. They don't know
Speaker 2: why I'm down there. They don't know why who I
Speaker 2: am or what I'm working. You know, and you, Aunt,
Speaker 2: you couldn't commit a crime against a black prostitute in
Speaker 2: Mississippi at that time, sim Lane wasn't considered a crime,
Speaker 2: and their testimony was never subpoenaed until well, eventually they
Speaker 2: both did go report it. Their testimony was never subpoenaed
Speaker 2: until a white girl went missing. Her name was Melinda
Speaker 2: la Prie, and they connected him to Sam when they
Speaker 2: showed up at the courthouse old it was eight months pregnant.
Speaker 2: They showed up testified at Melinda La Prie's grand jury indictment,
Speaker 2: and Hilda took one look at Sam and she urinated
Speaker 2: on the floor and they made her clean it up
Speaker 2: and they sent them home without testifying. So it wasn't
Speaker 2: until they testified. It wasn't until they testified at Sam's
Speaker 2: trial in twenty and thirteen that they finally got to
Speaker 2: tell their stories. So Layla McClain Elda Nelson. There was
Speaker 2: another victim, Laurie Carriage in San Diego, who testified then
Speaker 2: and testified again in La Sam served eighteen months on
Speaker 2: was initially attempted murder, kidnapping, assault, rape. He did some
Speaker 2: time for kidnapping, served eighteen months in a four year sentence.
Speaker 2: The other victim didn't show up and it's never been
Speaker 2: identified again. Aunt Tanya Jackson Lori Carriage still very much
Speaker 2: alive and is a trauma counselor and living in Portland
Speaker 2: and works through victims of violent crime. But she is furious,
Speaker 2: furious that he served eighteen months after having tried to
Speaker 2: kill her. He left her for dead, he thought she
Speaker 2: was dead and she just played possum by the side
Speaker 2: of the road until he was gone. And you know,
Speaker 2: if you really want to hear some anger about how
Speaker 2: the social justice system treated a woman they felt, you know,
Speaker 2: was an unreliable witness, in spite of how precise and
Speaker 2: impeccable her testimony was, as well as the cops involved
Speaker 2: in the case. In spite of that, he served eighteen months,
Speaker 2: drove straight to La and killed two women in one night.
Speaker 5: Yes's incredible.
Speaker 2: So the book itself, you know, is reaching out to
Speaker 2: a larger themes of you know, how we pursue social justice,
Speaker 2: how forensic science can level the field in some ways,
Speaker 2: but also our attitudes as a society have to change.
Speaker 2: And it's a story about the fascinating lives of the
Speaker 2: people involved in this world.
Speaker 5: Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear
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Speaker 5: Now you talk about not seeing Samuel Little and then
Speaker 5: he was returned to Los Angeles County and you had
Speaker 5: an opportunity to see him again. Tell us about this,
Speaker 5: the difference in these visits. Tell us about that meeting again.
Speaker 2: Well, when he was extra dined into Texas, I had
Speaker 2: an idea that I was rid of him. I mean
Speaker 2: that I'd be able to ask him the questions I
Speaker 2: wanted to ask, because by that time, you know, I
Speaker 2: was so deep within the investigations. You know, there was
Speaker 2: no dropping the story for me. But I thought it
Speaker 2: would be nice to not have to see him again.
Speaker 2: Like I say, you know, my experiences with him were
Speaker 2: always they were everything, you know, I mean, they were interesting,
Speaker 2: they were ultimately you I think every one of them
Speaker 2: took a bite out of me. You know, it just
Speaker 2: had to sit there and look and look that in
Speaker 2: the eye. And the fact that I did it for
Speaker 2: so long, which I also think really gave me a
Speaker 2: unique perspective. I don't know that there's a journalist that's
Speaker 2: done that sort of long term research with somebody where
Speaker 2: you get to see their personality unfold in so many ways,
Speaker 2: or say the layers of the onion peeling away. But
Speaker 2: yet when they actradited him to Texas, I thought like, oh,
Speaker 2: now I don't have to now I can just pretend, oh, bummer,
Speaker 2: too bad they brought Texas. Now, you know, I can't
Speaker 2: see him all that much. And then you know, when
Speaker 2: they gave him the option at the end of it,
Speaker 2: at the end of the confessions and at the end
Speaker 2: of his conviction for the murder of Denis Brothers, they
Speaker 2: gave him the option of where he wanted to be,
Speaker 2: and he said he wanted to be back in Los
Speaker 2: Angeles with his journalist. The difference, I mean every time
Speaker 2: I talked to Sam was different. There was a time
Speaker 2: I was working on the documentary Joe Berlinger, who did
Speaker 2: the amazing Paradise Lost serie, you know, the recent Ted
Speaker 2: Bundy and Jeffrey John documentaries in Netflix did a documentary
Speaker 2: about me working on this book and working on Sam
Speaker 2: Little's cases. And for that and also you know, for
Speaker 2: my own research, I pretty much talked to Sam on
Speaker 2: the phone from prison every day. And one of the
Speaker 2: things I did for the documentary was, you know, like
Speaker 2: they can't always have you know, a big fancy camera
Speaker 2: there when every moment of something real happens in a
Speaker 2: true crime story or what that relationship was like. So
Speaker 2: I put a go pro in my office and every
Speaker 2: single time I walked in, I turned it on and
Speaker 2: I was just like, no matter what, no matter what,
Speaker 2: no matter how shitt you look, no matter you just
Speaker 2: like ran in from the pool where you were with
Speaker 2: your kids, you know, their aaron and not in a bikini,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, no matter what, just like like show
Speaker 2: what it was like, because that's what it was like.
Speaker 2: You know, it was like running up from Christmas dinner
Speaker 2: and you know, and I think that Keith to do
Speaker 2: it montage in the documentary that shows like how very
Speaker 2: many times they spoke to him and you know, and
Speaker 2: like what different kind of conditions I was in. They
Speaker 2: even asked me. They were like really, like, I mean,
Speaker 2: we realize this is powerful, but like most people don't
Speaker 2: want to be, you know, photographed like bent over their
Speaker 2: desk crying in a bikini. And I was just like,
Speaker 2: fuck it. You know, I'm not a model. Can I
Speaker 2: say fuck it?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: Fuck it, I'm not a model. You know. I was
Speaker 2: doing my job and I don't care, and you know,
Speaker 2: and that is what it was like.
Speaker 1: It was.
Speaker 2: It was different every day. And you know, but as
Speaker 2: we sort of you know, COVID started approaching and there
Speaker 2: were ideas that they were going to start shutting down visitation.
Speaker 2: You know, he made me his next of kin, and
Speaker 2: we had an understanding that I was going to donate
Speaker 2: his brain to science and then I do something respectful
Speaker 2: with the rest of the two hundred pounds of them.
Speaker 2: And then when they did shut down the visiting, very
Speaker 2: shortly after, Sam went into the into the infirmary with
Speaker 2: COVID related symptoms and died there on December thirtieth, twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: And it was so the COVID crisis was so crazy,
Speaker 2: and there were meat trucks in the in the parking
Speaker 2: lot of the corner's office, and I was never able
Speaker 2: to get that brain, which is a real shame. What
Speaker 2: I did get was packages and packages and packages of
Speaker 2: things that were in his cell. And also I got
Speaker 2: one surprising letter that I think can sum up in
Speaker 2: a sense. You know, when people say, what was it
Speaker 2: like talk to associated path, you know, you know, really
Speaker 2: what was it like? You know, I was like, you
Speaker 2: were looking at the devil, and I was like, do
Speaker 2: you think that the devil shows up dressed like the devil?
Speaker 2: You think the devil's that stupid? You know, like he
Speaker 2: was just he was a Toddler. He was a con man.
Speaker 2: He was charming. He taught me so much. All nightmares
Speaker 2: about him for the rest of my life. But the
Speaker 2: end of his life, he was he was testy, you know,
Speaker 2: he was getting he was and also he was starting
Speaker 2: to get fan letter after fan letter after fan letter,
Speaker 2: and so all of a sudden, he's like, well, really,
Speaker 2: you know, this person's offering me money, and and you know,
Speaker 2: maybe I'm gonna tell them my story. I'm just like,
Speaker 2: just shut up, Sam. You know, I've been talking to
Speaker 2: you for years, you know, like I've got your story.
Speaker 2: But he would shake me down. He was a hust
Speaker 2: so he would shake you down to the last minute.
Speaker 2: And I'm his real I'm like his last friend. I'm
Speaker 2: his real friend. I'm the only one who's come to
Speaker 2: see him in prison. You know, he knows these people
Speaker 2: are just gonna take the drawings, the you know, tracings
Speaker 2: of his hands. He did, the tracings of his penis.
Speaker 2: He did the drawings people would ask for, you know,
Speaker 2: for three hundred dollars or whatever, or because they love him,
Speaker 2: love him, love him, love me. They don't know why
Speaker 2: I would call him a monster. And in any case,
Speaker 2: I remember one of our last conversations was like, you
Speaker 2: gave me enough money for ramen, but not a hot
Speaker 2: pot like you are just you know, because I put
Speaker 2: like fifteen bucks on his books every once in a while.
Speaker 2: And you know, he was like, and not a high pathage.
Speaker 2: You're just like every one of these bitches, you're this,
Speaker 2: You're that. I get a letter in the mount he
Speaker 2: left me one thousand and ninety seven dollars. I was like,
Speaker 2: you had money, you had money the whole time, and
Speaker 2: you're shaking down your last friend for five bucks, like
Speaker 2: you can't help yourself, just doing to see if you
Speaker 2: can do it to me, you know, And yeah, I
Speaker 2: got the I opened that check and I was just like,
Speaker 2: fuck it sad. You know, there's a piece that'll be
Speaker 2: a mystery to me forever. There's a piece that's just
Speaker 2: he wanted and he took. There are a lot of
Speaker 2: reasons maybe that's what he wanted. You know, I explore
Speaker 2: them in the book Scientific Psychological. If you figure it out,
Speaker 2: send me a line.
Speaker 5: We haven't talked about it, but you chronicle in this book.
Speaker 5: And for those that will discover this book, it's incredible.
Speaker 5: His to say the least, less auspicious beginning. His grandparents
Speaker 5: were he thought were his parents, his father he thought
Speaker 5: was his brother, and then kind of echoing Bundy or
Speaker 5: the Bundy legend, he was told about this at one
Speaker 5: point in a humiliating fashion. Sure, and like you, you
Speaker 5: chronicle in this book too, his stay at the Boys
Speaker 5: Industrial Reformatory did some shaping in or misshaping his character
Speaker 5: along the way. I want to thank you very much
Speaker 5: for coming on and talking about your extraordinary book, Behold
Speaker 5: the Monster, Confronting America's most prolific serial Killer. For those
Speaker 5: that might want to find out further about this, do
Speaker 5: you have a website and you do any social media?
Speaker 2: I do have a website. I do social media, and
Speaker 2: you know, and I welcome you all to come check
Speaker 2: it out. And you know, I try to restore the
Speaker 2: names and humanity of Sam's victims. Come help as well,
Speaker 2: and please read the book. I'm at Jillianlauren dot com.
Speaker 2: There's also a documentary called Confronting a Serial Killer by
Speaker 2: Joe Berlinger streaming on most major services right now. I'm
Speaker 2: on TikTok. Jillian Lauren author. I'm talking about missing persons,
Speaker 2: I'm talking about true prime stories. I'm talking about self defense,
Speaker 2: and I would love you look at my TikTok. My
Speaker 2: Instagram is at Jillian Lauren, TikTok at Jillie Lauren Facebook,
Speaker 2: somewhere Jillian Lauren author, but really go to my website
Speaker 2: pre order the book. Support this effort. I'm very proud
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 5: Yes, and indeed you should. Who knows to you? Thank
Speaker 5: you so much for Behold the Monster, Confronting America's most
Speaker 5: prolific serial killer. Thank you so much for this interview,
Speaker 5: and you have a great evening. Jillian Lauren, Thank you,
Speaker 5: good night. Thank you,