WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:07.280 Well whiskey, come and take my pain the honey all ry, 2 00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:11.919 Oh why don't why think alone when you can drink 3 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:15.519 it all? In with Ricochet's three Whiskey Happy Hour, join 4 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:19.920 your bartenders, Steve Hayward, John You, and the international woman 5 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:27.239 of Mystery, Lucretia. Where this laps it up, it'll live it, 6 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:31.000 ain't you? Easy on the should taps? Got to give 7 00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:37.960 me and let that whiskey blon. Well, Happy semi Quinn Centennial, everybody, 8 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:41.159 and welcome to this special bonus episode of the Three 9 00:00:41.240 --> 00:00:44.240 Whiskey Happy Hour. I am joined as always by the 10 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:47.159 sho hey Otani of the conservative legal movement, John You, 11 00:00:47.880 --> 00:00:51.000 and by the Anaka Nilis of the conservative podcast world, 12 00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:54.320 better known as Lucretia. And why is shaking your head? 13 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:59.359 I don't know how Nick any Well, that's because you're 14 00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:01.920 drinking framerus quantities of Ram and. 15 00:01:01.960 --> 00:01:05.719 Scott by now I'm sure, Oh no, they The second 16 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:07.599 one was was meant to be obscure because I know 17 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:10.079 we will have listeners who will know the Anika Nilis 18 00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:13.400 reference even if Lucretia doesn't. And I was thought I 19 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:16.799 was channeling John What the way? What's the name Troy 20 00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:19.359 Sinek used to always do those things about you, and yeah, 21 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:22.799 that's good. You see. Well I actually suggested once and 22 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:24.760 he call you the show. Hey Otani and Richard the 23 00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:27.200 Aaron judge of the conservative legal movement, and he never 24 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:28.680 did use it because he and. 25 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:31.319 They're not really They've got to be like Yin and 26 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:35.439 Yank types, not two of the same. They have to 27 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:36.239 be opponents. 28 00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:38.319 Well wait a minute, I guess not. 29 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:41.560 I guess he would use like Abbot and Costello, and yeah, 30 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:43.079 so they're more like buddy. They have be more like 31 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:46.640 buddies but also kind of rivals. Yeah, but but but 32 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:50.959 John enemy's frenemies. That's what uh look a women call it, right. 33 00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:54.719 I don't think they are commensurate because Otani can pitch 34 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:58.159 like crazy and Judge can't. I mean that to me 35 00:01:58.359 --> 00:02:01.239 is uh what talks sports a lotherer time. What we 36 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:04.079 want to do is talk about the Declaration independence of 37 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:07.959 two fifty. And I mean We've all been writing about 38 00:02:07.959 --> 00:02:09.759 it a lot here all year, and then I'm going 39 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:12.120 to keep writing about it. And what are some of 40 00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:15.800 the lingering issues? There's several wee can take up, and 41 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:18.240 I've lost track of what we've talked about. Here because 42 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:22.159 I've been doing these individual podcasts with authors, which has 43 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:25.439 been fun. But John, your latest Peace Let's start with 44 00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:27.479 your latest piece on this. John, you wrote a nashew 45 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:33.199 about how the Declaration of Independence is not I guess 46 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:35.080 I see, on the surface, right as everyone thinks all 47 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:38.400 those attacks on the king, the framers were against executive power, 48 00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:41.800 and we do know that, you know, having a president 49 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.879 was a having a president at all was a controversial 50 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:47.879 subject at the Constitution Convention, and there was no executive 51 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:50.879 in the Articles of Confederation, right, So. 52 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:55.840 That is the sort of yes, superficial approach which I 53 00:02:56.639 --> 00:02:59.800 had to say was in Justice Justice Soto Mayor's descent 54 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:03.919 in the presidential removal cases, where she says something along 55 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:06.919 the lines of, you know, giving the president this massive 56 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:10.280 powers a violation of the spirit of the American Revolution 57 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:14.319 and the Declaration. So she gives this kind of usual 58 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:17.960 superficial claim you hear all the time against the president. Oh, 59 00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:20.560 we would never have had kings. That's a violation of 60 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:24.879 the Declaration of Independence. But I think if you actually 61 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:27.120 take a close look at that declaration, you read it 62 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:31.039 in its historical context. The reason they attack the king 63 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:34.759 over and over again isn't because they're against the executive power. 64 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:38.479 In fact, as I point on my arcle, the Declaration 65 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:42.520 talks about executive powers over and over again, like the 66 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:46.520 veto power. They don't say there shouldn't be a veto power. Interestingly, 67 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:50.000 they just say the King has used it to stop 68 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:54.400 laws that advance the public interest. So it's interesting not 69 00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:57.199 only they knowledge there should be veto power, they explain 70 00:03:57.240 --> 00:04:01.199 when they think it should be used. So the reason 71 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:04.919 why the Declaration is styled that way, I argue, is 72 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:08.159 because the king, even at this time the King in England, 73 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:10.520 did not govern as an absolute monarch. It was the 74 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:11.520 King in parliament. 75 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:13.599 So it was really a. 76 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:18.399 Way to attack the idea of an imperial government because 77 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:20.480 the king, under the way the colonists thought of it, 78 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:25.600 the king was the real center of imperial governance. And 79 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:27.480 so when you attack the king, you're really attacking just 80 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:29.279 the idea that London gets to tell you what to 81 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:33.079 do without your participation. And so then the other the 82 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:36.920 second thing is the Articles of Confederation. People say, oh, 83 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:40.240 it doesn't have an executive branch. Actually, when you look 84 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:42.680 at what the Articles did, the whole thing is an 85 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:43.480 executive branch. 86 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:44.319 It's real fault. 87 00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:48.240 It doesn't have any legislative power, contax couldn't regulate. It's 88 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:51.439 actually what happened in the colonies to the n degree, 89 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:54.800 which is they didn't And this is the second last 90 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:58.439 point I want to make about this, is they the revolutionaries, 91 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:01.639 didn't take away executs of power try to redefine it. 92 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.079 Their approach was to try to change the structure of 93 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:08.839 the executive branch, make it responsible to legislatures, or give 94 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:12.160 it strict term elaments. The Articles are a good example. 95 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:15.480 They have a thirteen member executive branch. Each state gets 96 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:19.319 to elect one person. But they didn't say, oh, you know, 97 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:22.720 executives won't do this. Executives can't do that anymore. So 98 00:05:22.839 --> 00:05:25.480 the amazing thing I end by saying, the incredible thing 99 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:30.560 is actually how the traditional notion of the executive which 100 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:33.399 is really you know, we start talking about with Machiavelli 101 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:36.600 and then is expanded on by Hobbes and Locke, how 102 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:40.439 quickly it comes into full force again by the time 103 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:42.199 of the Constitutional Convention. 104 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:46.680 In large part because of the experience that they had 105 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:51.920 over and over again with weak executives, weak limited plural executives. 106 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:56.199 They were very quick to learn their lessons is what 107 00:05:56.319 --> 00:05:59.920 it came down to. They had the theories of law 108 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:03.120 and so forth about executive power. They were worried about it. 109 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:05.040 I mean, you do have all the debates at the 110 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:11.920 Constitutional Convention between the anti executive's power people and the executive. 111 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:17.160 The people in favor of a stronger, unified executive who 112 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:21.439 was both responsible and accountable won the day, you know, 113 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:25.240 and large part because of Hamilton, of course, and Hamilton's 114 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:30.920 discussion of that and federalist hold on don't tell me 115 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:36.560 seventy seventy and federalist number seventy. It's a real true 116 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:41.560 to force in many ways to understand. So you started 117 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:44.720 your article for what it's worth. I hope Steve will 118 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:48.800 link to it by saying that people criticizing the slaughter 119 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:52.920 case that just came out do so by their appeal 120 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:55.560 back to the Declaration of Independence. And then you show, 121 00:06:56.199 --> 00:06:59.040 you know, absolutely brilliantly why they're completely wrong about that. 122 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:04.279 But the other argument that they often make is that, oh, 123 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:07.920 this president will become so ultra powerful, and oh aren't 124 00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:10.800 you worried if a democrat comes into office and starts 125 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:13.720 exercising these same powers. You hear that from our side, 126 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:18.680 even yes and no, we can hold them accountable when 127 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:22.680 we know who to hold accountable. If you if you 128 00:07:22.759 --> 00:07:25.560 can be like that idiot Obama and say I didn't 129 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:29.519 even know. I didn't even know that my IRS was 130 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:33.160 targeting people. I read about it in the newspapers like everybody, 131 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:35.439 you know. If you can get away with that nonsense 132 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:40.240 because you have this dispersed executive power across all of 133 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:44.879 these agencies not in any way answerable to the executive, 134 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:47.279 then you have a problem. But when you can look 135 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:50.680 at Trump and say, hey, what the hell are you 136 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:53.399 doing in that around war? Agree with it, don't agree 137 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:56.439 with it? Who's responsible for it? Even Trump will say 138 00:07:56.519 --> 00:07:59.879 I'm responsible. He's not gonna blame Haig Seth or JD 139 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:03.079 Events or any you know. And that's how it's supposed 140 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:08.959 to be. That's that's that's actual democratic or Republican I 141 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:10.199 would say accountability. 142 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:14.800 Well, let me offer an observation and then maybe a 143 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:17.920 challenge or question for you guys. Uh. I've always thought 144 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:21.600 that the list of grievances against the King and the Declaration, 145 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:24.000 if you, if you look at them closely and think 146 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:27.439 it through, you can see arguments for separation of powers. 147 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:27.920 Uh. 148 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:30.120 In other words, you can see a lot of arguments. 149 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:32.320 For our other piece. I wrote that you guys. 150 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:35.159 Didn't like Wait, no, actually I liked that part of it. 151 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.679 Yeah, okay, uh, but it's long said. And even the 152 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:42.279 Creatia professor Chaffa said a couple of times in passing 153 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:44.080 that you know, it's a you know, why are we 154 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:46.480 blaming the king when really it was Parliament passing all 155 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:50.200 these taxes and Lord Norse administration Detory Act and right. 156 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:53.559 But there's a there's a reason why it wasn't just 157 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:58.639 it was rhetorically simple and just points to the contingency 158 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:02.360 of events out you know, you and I in particular 159 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:04.399 anything john to a certain extent, we look at the 160 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:07.399 ideas and the principles involved for their intelligibility and their 161 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:10.039 head agree. You know, Johnny already mentioned Hobbs and Locke 162 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:14.840 and Mocky Valley and so forth. One reason the king 163 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:19.480 became the centerpiece is and I learned this by talking 164 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:22.159 to Ed Larson, whose book about seventeen seventy six I 165 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:24.559 think is actually pretty good. He points out that what 166 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:29.000 was the previous Jefferson broadside from two years before the. 167 00:09:29.799 --> 00:09:32.080 Rights of British America, British. 168 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:35.799 Of British Americans right British and North America British North Americans. 169 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:39.159 And it makes a pretty persuasive case that as late 170 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:43.120 as the fall of seventeen seventy five, after hostilities have started, 171 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:45.720 after there's a lot of shooting and killing going on already, 172 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:49.480 that there's still some thought of reconciliation, that you know, 173 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:51.799 we are loyal to the king, can remain loyal to 174 00:09:51.799 --> 00:09:54.399 the king if we're governed better. Then what happens. The 175 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:57.000 King gives a speech that takes several weeks to get 176 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:01.759 across the Atlantic, and it says, screw you American colonists. 177 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:03.960 We're gonna crush you because you don't have any rights 178 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:08.639 that I bound. And that infuriated the colonists and really 179 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:11.080 was a tipping point because it happens. I think the 180 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:15.360 chronology is Tom Paine's Common Sense is published on January sixth. 181 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:20.759 It sells one hundred and fifty thousand copies, which adjusted 182 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:24.559 for today's population, would be about twenty five million. No 183 00:10:25.559 --> 00:10:28.559 modern bestsellers sell that much. It was a huge sensation. 184 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:30.679 And then the King's Speech is published a day or 185 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:34.159 two later. Hayne rushes out a second edition a week later, 186 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:38.000 and essentially, and that's when that's when George Washington writes 187 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:41.080 to people saying, this is this is not now trying 188 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:45.039 to vindicate a rights. This is now a drive for independence. Okay, 189 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:47.919 And that makes sense then why you're going to attack 190 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:50.480 the king for having the character of a tyrant in 191 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:53.919 the declaration. So my last point is the contingency of 192 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:56.279 events is if the king had been more reasonable, I 193 00:10:56.360 --> 00:10:58.799 don't know what had happened, or, as I've often said 194 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:02.679 to many of our Claremont friends, being Devil's advocate, oh, 195 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:05.039 the Hessians, you know, are already being sent over and 196 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:08.639 that really infuriates people. Right, the British center largest at 197 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:12.559 that point, largest navaling fleet had ever sent anywhere to 198 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:16.919 put down the rebellion. And if the British military had 199 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:20.679 succeeded in crushing the revolution, they hung George Washington, They 200 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:22.440 would have hung Kong with Jefferson. 201 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:25.559 John Hancock, Samuel Adams. 202 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:29.120 But all those people and the declaration would today be 203 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:30.679 a footnote in history. 204 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:38.679 Go ahead, let John go first. But I do want 205 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:39.559 to make you small. 206 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:42.080 I was thinking, I think one thing that historians have 207 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:45.279 have've written about this, I think the people who followed 208 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.399 on Balen and Wood. That was interesting is that they 209 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:50.840 said look at it and away from the British perspective, 210 00:11:51.519 --> 00:11:54.960 which to them this was a problem of imperial governance, 211 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:58.080 and they screwed it up right after us. They changed 212 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.559 this kind of commonwealth federalism, and you could say that 213 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:04.600 the thing that really caused us to break away was 214 00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:08.159 a federalism problem. Everyone else talks about it as if 215 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.440 it were a separation of powers that you which was not. 216 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:14.639 We were rebelling because we had a view that Parliament 217 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:17.039 and the King should be interacting differently, or there was 218 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:21.000 no independent judiciary. Right that it was because the power 219 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:23.919 of the center was too strong over the you know, 220 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:26.279 the periphrase, which is a federalism issue. 221 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:29.879 And you even pointed out in your piece, John that 222 00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:36.279 the colonists had some claim on the interests of the sovereign, 223 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:38.919 where they all had almost none on the claims of parliament, 224 00:12:38.919 --> 00:12:43.159 because Parliament actually represented people that were not them, whereas 225 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:45.120 the King could in some ways have been said to 226 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:47.919 represent all of them, all of the British subjects. 227 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.000 What do you guys think of this, because I've come 228 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:52.639 across this in some of the things I've read, is 229 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:56.600 that the Declaration actually is not and it does not 230 00:12:56.720 --> 00:12:58.519 attack monarchy in and of itself. 231 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:01.840 Ah important point. 232 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:08.120 There's a long debate about whether a monarchy, anarchy monarchical 233 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:12.840 system could be consistent with the Declaration. So maybe can 234 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:13.159 I just. 235 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:15.120 Bring back That's why I want to ask you guys. 236 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:19.519 It's a little tough if it's a constitutional monarchy limited maybe, 237 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:22.200 But I want to go back to something Steve said, 238 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:25.159 because on the one hand, he's right about the summary 239 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:28.320 view of the rights of British America. At the same time, 240 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:33.360 I want to point out that nothing in the language 241 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:37.960 of what Jefferson wrote there was intended to be anything 242 00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:40.799 other than an early declaration of the rights. And just 243 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:44.519 forgive me but just two lines, that these are our 244 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:47.879 grievances which we have thus laid before his majesty, with 245 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:52.399 that freedom of language and sentiment, which becomes a free 246 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:57.120 people claiming their rights as derived from the laws of 247 00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:00.799 nature and not as the gift of their chief magistrate. 248 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:02.679 For all of those people who claim we were just 249 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:06.279 you know, claiming our rights as British citizens is just hobwash. 250 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:10.120 But anyway, let those who flatter excuse me, Let those 251 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:14.159 flatter who fear it is not an American art to 252 00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:16.600 give praise, which is not do might be well from 253 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:17.840 the venal, But blah. 254 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:18.440 Blah, blah blah blah. 255 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.759 Those who are asserting the rights of human nature. You 256 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:30.679 the king are not sovereign. We the people are the 257 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:33.879 sovereigns because of our natural rights. Now come back and 258 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:35.960 give us the rights you give to other British subjects. 259 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.600 Maybe we'll lay low for a little while. But basically, 260 00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:44.399 the rights of the Summary review is the first declaration 261 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:46.639 of independence from the king. 262 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:49.879 Right, No, the consequent logic is obvious there, and it's why, 263 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:51.960 I mean, I think this is probably right. It's why 264 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:54.759 Jefferson was picked to be the principal drafter of the 265 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.440 declaration because that that's some review that was you know, 266 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:03.039 pain is more retorted. Jefferson's is more theoretical and philosophical. 267 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:04.679 But he was such a good writer that that's why. 268 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:07.240 And how old was Jefferson when he wrote the declaration 269 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:08.320 thirty three? 270 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:10.000 I thin thirty two or thirty three? 271 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:12.759 Yeah, this is thirty one when he wrote this. 272 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:16.679 Wels, Madison and Hamilton are in their early thirty when 273 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:18.080 they're writing the Federals. 274 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:20.639 Papers, right right, Yeah, as pretty but you know they 275 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:23.120 had better educations than thirty one yearls or twenty one 276 00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:28.720 year olds these days. Yeah, I will no, I won't. 277 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:33.039 There's a certain Irish born statesman whose name Lucreatia bridles 278 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:35.200 At so I won't mention it, who was always hoping 279 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:37.879 for reconciliation and said, you know, Jefferson, these guys they're 280 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:41.360 making a pretty good case, and kept a resolute silence 281 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:43.600 about the declaration, which I know he did not like, 282 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:46.440 but he kept he held his tongue about it. You 283 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:49.320 all know who I'm referring to, right, Yeah, of course, Okay, I. 284 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:51.600 Can't believe he'd bring that up on a two hundred 285 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:54.200 and fiftieth semi centennial. 286 00:15:55.879 --> 00:15:58.240 I just do it that fun. Before we go to 287 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:01.399 our first ad break here, John, you're raising what's become 288 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:05.360 known as the no guidance hypothesis about that second paragraph 289 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:09.240 of the declaration. I mean a second paragraph, a very 290 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:12.720 elegant lot to it, but really concise. But it says, 291 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:15.039 you know, the object of government is to secure our rights, 292 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:17.879 and whenever a government fails to do that, it's our right, 293 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:21.240 our duty to set up new forms of government that 294 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.519 we think will better assure our safety and happiness doesn't 295 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:27.559 say that government has to be I won't say constitutional. 296 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.720 I think it's implied. There will come to your other 297 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:32.480 art about this in a minute, maybe, but the point 298 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:35.320 is is that if you could trust a monarch to 299 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:41.159 secure your natural rights, would that satisfy the conditions of ceration? 300 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:43.960 And yeah, this is the part we were talking about before, 301 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:47.120 because you guys also said one of the key parts 302 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:51.000 of the naturroids and the declaration is consent by the government. Yeah, right, 303 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:53.960 and so with a monarch you don't get to consent. 304 00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:54.919 It's hereditary. 305 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.000 Presumably it's a subject ship, yes. 306 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:02.759 Yeah, so it wouldn't be the case then that if 307 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:06.079 you thought that the you know, the natural rights language 308 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:09.519 and the second paragraph declaration is really controlling, then it 309 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:13.799 would have to exclude a monarchy or even an aristocracy, 310 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:14.240 wouldn't it. 311 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:19.599 I would think so based upon the arguments that we 312 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:22.920 hear again about that in the federalist papers, I mean, 313 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:25.359 I think that they're very compelling, one of which is 314 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:32.000 that you can trust executive power not to become tyrannical, 315 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:37.039 if it is limited, if it is not hereditary, if 316 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.079 it you know, all of these things that it really 317 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:43.160 defines what it means to be a monarch and says 318 00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:47.759 those things mean you cannot trust executive power. I would 319 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:49.640 go so far as to say you can't even have 320 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:54.440 a parliamentary system of government and have a genuine consent. 321 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:55.880 But that's that's a discussion. 322 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:59.599 But you will luck them like, there's no election for 323 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:04.119 aristocrats and monarchs, so just by definition, wouldn't they be 324 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:09.359 excluded as possible forms of government under your guy's view 325 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:10.200 of natural rights? 326 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:14.599 Well, and I just say that the subject of consent 327 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:16.839 is a really serious and deep one, and I hope 328 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:19.079 you will both right now consent to a brief ad 329 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:19.559 break so. 330 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:22.559 We can let our sponsors wow walk at that Segmentay, 331 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:23.400 very nice. 332 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:40.000 Hi everybody, it's Steve here to introduce you to a 333 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:43.400 brand new podcast on the Ricochet Family. It's called the 334 00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:48.200 Future Freedom Podcast. So what if political disagreement didn't have 335 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:51.960 to become political warfare? Well, that's the idea behind the 336 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:56.119 Future of Freedom Podcast. Each week, two liberty minded thinkers 337 00:18:56.200 --> 00:19:01.799 tackle a major issue from different perspectives, one con two viewpoints. 338 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:06.720 No yelling, no dunking, no debate stage theatrics for that, 339 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:08.000 You've got to stay here with us at the three 340 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.519 Whisky Happy Hour. I think the Future of Freedom podcast 341 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.640 just aims to have thoughtful arguments presented in good faith, 342 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:17.519 giving listeners the chance to weigh the evidence and reach 343 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:21.200 their own conclusions. In the media environment build for outrage, 344 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:24.960 the Future of Freedom podcast is built for curiosity. So 345 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:27.480 please listen to the Future of Freedom here on Ricochet 346 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:30.799 or wherever you get your podcasts. And now back to 347 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:36.559 the three Whiskey Happy Hour. Well, all right, I mentioned 348 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:38.599 the consent as a naughty subject. I don't want to 349 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:40.359 get into it here because I'm too rusty at it. 350 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:40.720 Pout. 351 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.720 There's also some lingering issues I think. I know that 352 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:47.759 Lucreatian and I have talked about this a lot many 353 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:52.119 years ago, but one of the things that well, let 354 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:54.799 me put it this way, I'm not sure that we're 355 00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:57.359 getting any closer to the bottom of the matter about 356 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.200 what is meant by all men are created equal, how 357 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:04.160 equality is supposed to be understood the declaration. My modern 358 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:06.200 version of the division between left and right is this 359 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:12.200 the conservative view or the founder's view. Classical liberal view 360 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:16.000 is that justice is rooted in freedom or liberty, and 361 00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:18.680 the object of government is to preserve your freedom in liberty, 362 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:23.839 The modern leftist view is that equality means egalitarianism, which 363 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:28.359 means forced redistribution, force rearrangement of power. That means compulsion. 364 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:33.799 Antagonistic too, so their justice is rooted and antagonism to 365 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:36.519 human freedom. Right, that seems to me the divide. I 366 00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:38.400 don't think we're ever going to sort that debate out. 367 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:40.400 I think we're going to argue about that forever. But 368 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:42.759 I do think that debate needs to be aired out, 369 00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:45.920 especially these days with billionaire's taxes on the ballot and 370 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:50.079 things of that kind, and democratic socialist running rampaging around 371 00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:52.440 the Democratic Party. Right now, we'll come back to that 372 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:54.920 maybe a little bit. But what should we add into 373 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:57.079 all that. It seems to me that that discussion has 374 00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:01.000 not been has been too muted in this semi Quinn 375 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:02.119 centennial season. 376 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:04.720 This is the this is the thing. 377 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:08.640 So people who believe in some kind of equality of 378 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:13.119 result or some kind of Marxists or socialists, do they 379 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:18.440 really think that they're consistent with the Declaration of Independence? 380 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:20.960 I don't really think so. They might like the rhetoric 381 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:24.000 of it, but they have to think that they're really 382 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:27.720 The Declaration of Independence is focus on negative government, right, 383 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:29.240 This idea that the government should get out of the 384 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:32.759 way or just protect us in our own enjoyment of 385 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:36.240 our natural That's just fundamentally inconsistent and at odds with 386 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:38.519 what they want to do. So it seems to me 387 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:41.440 they want to They deny the declarations principles, but they 388 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:44.200 do like the rhetoric because when you use the word equal, 389 00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:45.599 its could be so malleable. 390 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:49.079 Right, So that's why I think of it. That's true. 391 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.000 But I also I'm much more sinister about it than 392 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:54.880 you are, John, and that is that they actually don't 393 00:21:55.720 --> 00:22:02.000 want real genuine equity equality about come. They want the 394 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:06.200 ability to manipulate society so that they can give the appearance. 395 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:09.799 I mean, Tokfield talks about this, give the appearance of 396 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:15.759 equal outcome, when of course they remain in this particular position, 397 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:19.599 in this particular. 398 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:23.400 Position, over and above running a zoo back there, I see, like, yeah, 399 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:25.319 check this out. 400 00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:31.960 It's a fireworks night and it's a fountain for a while. Wait, 401 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:34.839