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<v Speaker 1>Oh Canada, crapsing the economy, recession looming.

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<v Speaker 2>What happens next? Watch what happens? Will happen right here.

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<v Speaker 3>On fifty five KRC, the talkstation Ato six here fifty

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<v Speaker 3>five car CD talk station and a happy Thursday to you.

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<v Speaker 3>Out of the r with Irbdadation Next.

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<v Speaker 2>Mer Jay Rattler.

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<v Speaker 3>But right now I'm really excited and please welcome to

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<v Speaker 3>the fifty five KRC Morning Show. Doctor Paul Winfrey, President

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<v Speaker 3>CEO of an organization called the Economic Policy Innovation Center.

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<v Speaker 3>He served a top management policy roles in the White House,

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<v Speaker 3>US Senate as well as think tanks, and during the

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<v Speaker 3>first Trump administration, he served as the Deputy Assistant to

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<v Speaker 3>the President for Domestic Policy and Deputy Director of Domestic

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<v Speaker 3>Policy Council. His research has been featured in The Wall

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<v Speaker 3>Street Journal, New York Times, Washington Post, Investors, Business Daily,

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<v Speaker 3>USA Today, in Congressional Quartery, among other publications. Also the

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<v Speaker 3>author of the History and Future of the Budget Process

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<v Speaker 3>in the United States. Doctor Winfree, Welcome to the program.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a real pleasure to have you on, sir.

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<v Speaker 4>Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Well.

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<v Speaker 3>When you read the news, you think the world is

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<v Speaker 3>coming to an end. Oh my god, eight point six

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<v Speaker 3>million people are going to be deprived of healthcare if

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<v Speaker 3>these reforms go in that the Republicans are talking about.

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<v Speaker 3>Let us start with it seems to me that many

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<v Speaker 3>of the Democrats who are railing against requiring people who

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<v Speaker 3>are able bodied in their prime work years to actually

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<v Speaker 3>participate and work or do something for twenty hours a week,

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<v Speaker 3>they shouldn't be on Medicaid. Can you remind my listeners

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<v Speaker 3>who may be on this fence and about the issue,

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<v Speaker 3>what Medicaid was originally designed to do.

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<v Speaker 4>That's exactly right.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, if you break down the eight million person

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<v Speaker 1>number or the eight million lost coverage number, one point

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<v Speaker 1>four million of those folks are illegal immigrants. One and

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<v Speaker 1>a half million of them are not eligible for Medicaid,

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<v Speaker 1>but they've been retained on the program by regulations that

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<v Speaker 1>are promulgated by the Biden administration. Another couple of million

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<v Speaker 1>are people who don't even exist right now, but CBO

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<v Speaker 1>says may exist in the future and maybe eligible for Medicaid.

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<v Speaker 1>And everybody else are working age adults who are healthy

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<v Speaker 1>and currently on the program and don't have any don't

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<v Speaker 1>have any requirement to work. When the program was created,

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<v Speaker 1>as you mentioned in the nineteen sixties, this was a

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<v Speaker 1>program for the vulnerable folks, the disabled, the blind, pregnant

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<v Speaker 1>moms and kids. And what we've seen over the last

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<v Speaker 1>ten years is the program has evolved to benefit the

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<v Speaker 1>healthy adults without dependence over the truly vulnerable, which is

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<v Speaker 1>changing the way that medicine is delivered and ultimately making

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<v Speaker 1>it harder for folks who truly need the Medicaid program

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<v Speaker 1>to see to see doctors, and to get the healthcare

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<v Speaker 1>that they ultimately need.

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<v Speaker 3>So what they've done is they've undermined Medicaid's original intent.

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<v Speaker 3>They put all these people on who weren't eligible for

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<v Speaker 3>it originally. How is it that it expanded so much

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<v Speaker 3>and people didn't say, well, well, whoa whoa, we're we're

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<v Speaker 3>this is this has gone way on the scope of

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<v Speaker 3>what was truly intended, yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>To get this.

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<v Speaker 1>When Obamacare was created in twenty ten, and then it

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<v Speaker 1>expanded the Medicaid program to the healthy adults in twenty fourteen,

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<v Speaker 1>they knew that states would be disinclined to expand Medicaid

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<v Speaker 1>to the healthy population because it would have added to

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<v Speaker 1>their state budgets, and so what they did is they

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<v Speaker 1>set up a new financing structure that rewards states for

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<v Speaker 1>enrolling healthy adults. So for every one dollar that states spend,

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<v Speaker 1>they get nine dollars from the federal government if they

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<v Speaker 1>enroll in help healthy adults without kids, and they get

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<v Speaker 1>a dollar thirty three for every dollar that they spend

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<v Speaker 1>for every pregnant mom, disabled person, blind person, elderly person

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<v Speaker 1>or child that they put on the Medicaid program. And

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<v Speaker 1>so if you think about it that way, from a

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<v Speaker 1>state's perspective, they're literally rewarded by the federal government for

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<v Speaker 1>enrolling and shifting medicine towards healthy adults over people who

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<v Speaker 1>truly need it. And and that those those incentives have

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<v Speaker 1>become even more strengthened because of some Biden regulations that

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<v Speaker 1>have been pushed out over the last four years that

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<v Speaker 1>have just accelerated that and encouraged states even more to

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<v Speaker 1>take up the Obamacare expansion. And that's that's that's really

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<v Speaker 1>what we're talking about here.

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<v Speaker 3>So the left has been advocating for universal health care.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean it was supposed to Obamacare is supposed to

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<v Speaker 3>do that. I know Hillary Clinton never to do it

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<v Speaker 3>back when she was the first lady. But obviously it

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<v Speaker 3>didn't go through then. But this sounds just like a

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<v Speaker 3>nefarious backdoor mechanism to create that reality because more and

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<v Speaker 3>more people are expanded put on Medicaid and are not

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<v Speaker 3>in private insurance or or dealing with it on their own.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that that kind of what's actually unfolding here, Bingo,

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<v Speaker 3>you're exactly right.

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<v Speaker 1>So the left has been talking for years about Medicare

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<v Speaker 1>for all, right, Bernie Sanders has been talking about Medicare

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<v Speaker 1>for all for years.

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<v Speaker 2>You've got bills to do this.

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<v Speaker 1>Democrats in the House, Aos, they also have bills to

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<v Speaker 1>do this. The real trojan horse here is that it

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<v Speaker 1>was never intended to be Medicare for all. It was

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<v Speaker 1>intended to be Medicaid for all. And one of the

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<v Speaker 1>big differences that seniors know between Medicare and Medicaid is

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<v Speaker 1>that doctors get paid much less for seeing the vulnerable

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<v Speaker 1>population in Medicaid than they do for Medicare or private

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<v Speaker 1>health insurance.

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<v Speaker 4>Or even Medicaid for the healthy.

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<v Speaker 1>Adults because of the incentive structure to push medicine towards

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<v Speaker 1>the healthy adults in the Medicaid program. What that means

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<v Speaker 1>is that right now today there are about seven hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and ten thousand disabled Americans on Medicaid wait lists to

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<v Speaker 1>get things like home health care because the states have

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<v Speaker 1>again been incentivized not to spend on that population because

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<v Speaker 1>that's what the federal government has been telling them to do.

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<v Speaker 1>And if they keep moving this in the tenet non

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<v Speaker 1>expansion states expand Medicaid like Texas and Florida and Georgia,

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<v Speaker 1>then we are going to become that much closer to

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<v Speaker 1>a Medicaid for all system where there's just a takeover

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<v Speaker 1>of healthcare and it's all run out of HHS.

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<v Speaker 4>That's where we're going right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Eighty million Americans are on Medicaid, a program that was

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<v Speaker 1>originally intended to be for the truly vulnerable.

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<v Speaker 3>And I know you've pointed out in your research, your

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<v Speaker 3>in your writings on this that states exploit medical Medicaid

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<v Speaker 3>with with what you referred to as loopholes, private provider

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<v Speaker 3>taxes and state directed payments which you I think referred

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<v Speaker 3>to as money laundering schemes.

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<v Speaker 2>How do these work?

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<v Speaker 3>And isn't this a reform that should be incorporated into

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<v Speaker 3>what the Republicans are trying to do right now?

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<v Speaker 1>So the Medicaid provider taxes. If if the private sector were.

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<v Speaker 2>To do this, it would be illegal. People will go

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<v Speaker 2>to jail.

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<v Speaker 4>Literally.

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<v Speaker 1>What happens is that the states tax medicaid providers, insurers,

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<v Speaker 1>and hospitals in particular. They then re burse the same

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<v Speaker 1>amount of money that they're taxing the hospitals and the insurance.

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<v Speaker 1>So they pay the insurers and the hospitals to pay

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<v Speaker 1>the tax. They then bill the federal government for the

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<v Speaker 1>amount of that tax, and the federal government reimburses the state.

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<v Speaker 4>The states then split the.

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<v Speaker 1>Money that they get from the federal government with the providers,

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<v Speaker 1>so they send it to the insurers and through higher

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<v Speaker 1>capitation rates or higher premiums, and they send it to

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<v Speaker 1>the hospitals through to higher payments.

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<v Speaker 4>But here's the really wild thing that's going on here again.

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<v Speaker 4>Because states get.

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<v Speaker 1>Nine dollars from the federal government for every one dollar

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<v Speaker 1>that they spend on the healthy population, they're incentivized to

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<v Speaker 1>gain this in particular in the direction of the healthy population.

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<v Speaker 4>And so what we're seeing right.

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<v Speaker 1>Now play out in quite literally real time is that

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<v Speaker 1>there's a pollution between state governments and the hospitals and

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<v Speaker 1>the insurers to figure out ways in which they can

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<v Speaker 1>increase premiums and prices for the healthy adult population to

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<v Speaker 1>take advantage of these money laundering schemes. And what that's

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<v Speaker 1>doing is it's quite literally redirecting the way that medicine

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<v Speaker 1>is delivered so that the vulnerable folks don't want to

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<v Speaker 1>be seen by doctors. Rather, the doctors want to see

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<v Speaker 1>healthy folks because they get paid more for seeing them

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<v Speaker 1>by the federal and state governments.

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<v Speaker 4>And personally, I mean, just as a as a.

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<v Speaker 1>Tax paying American, I think that that's wrong, and I

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to see my own my own tax dollars

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<v Speaker 1>go for things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>That structure is just.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm just mine. My mind is boggled by this, doctor Winfrey.

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<v Speaker 3>And then that's the way it exists, creating zero incentive

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<v Speaker 3>whatsoever for states to want to reign in or or

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<v Speaker 3>ride heard over the medicaid dollars that are being spent.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, there's zero incentive there.

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<v Speaker 1>Their zero incentive. And we've seen, I mean, your listeners

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<v Speaker 1>know exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>The states that have abused this the.

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<v Speaker 1>Most without me even saying the names, California and New York.

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<v Speaker 1>But California and New York have used these money long

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<v Speaker 1>during scams to funnel more and more money back to

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<v Speaker 1>the back back to the state governments from the Feil government.

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<v Speaker 1>They've then used the profits from these money laundering scams

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<v Speaker 1>to provide health insurance medicaid for illegal immigrants, but also

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<v Speaker 1>to pay for things that have absolutely nothing to do

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<v Speaker 1>with healthcare to fund budget shortfalls in their own states.

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<v Speaker 1>And they're doing this on the backs of medicaid. They're

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<v Speaker 1>literally using medicaid to funnel federal money back to the

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<v Speaker 1>state to fund their budget, fund their budget shortfalls. And

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<v Speaker 1>so Congress is looking right now at closing or at

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<v Speaker 1>least limiting.

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<v Speaker 4>Some of those loopholes.

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<v Speaker 1>But really I think that they can go even even

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<v Speaker 1>further than what than what they're doing well.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know, it's sort of like I wish the

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<v Speaker 3>American public who could listen to this particular interview now

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<v Speaker 3>or at least have the understanding that doctor Winfrey here has,

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<v Speaker 3>because then they would easily reject these screams and wailing

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<v Speaker 3>and gnashing of teeth about all these eight million people

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<v Speaker 3>are going to lose their medical benefits because as you

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<v Speaker 3>describe it, of course clearly they shouldn't have them anyway.

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<v Speaker 3>But the idea that this system has been so upside

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<v Speaker 3>down that it incentivizes treating the healthy people to the

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<v Speaker 3>exclusion of the original point of Medicaid.

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<v Speaker 2>I think would rile people up and will be anger.

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<v Speaker 4>That's exactly right.

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<v Speaker 1>The Congressional Budget Office just last week put out a

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<v Speaker 1>letter that said that if you reduced the f MAP,

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<v Speaker 1>or the amount of the federal contribution for the healthy population,

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<v Speaker 1>down to the rate that the philogarment paced for the

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<v Speaker 1>vulnerable population, it will save about seventy one billion dollars

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<v Speaker 1>a year. At the same time, only about two million

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<v Speaker 1>people will become uninsured based on their estimates. If you

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<v Speaker 1>divide the seventy one billion by the two million, you

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<v Speaker 1>get about thirty thousand dollars a year that the federal

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<v Speaker 1>government is paying to ensure the marginal person on the

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<v Speaker 1>Medicaid program, even though the even though the federal government

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<v Speaker 1>tells us that it only costs about eight thousand dollars

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<v Speaker 1>to ensure a person on Medicaid. So one has to

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<v Speaker 1>ask the question where did the other twenty two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>dollars go? And the answer is that it's being channeled

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<v Speaker 1>to the state governments and the insurers and the hospitals

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<v Speaker 1>which is why those groups are the ones that are

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<v Speaker 1>actually panicking about what Congress is doing right now and

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<v Speaker 1>trying to incite a riot in Washington, DC amongst the

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<v Speaker 1>vulnerable Medicaid recipients.

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<v Speaker 3>I can only imagine the lobbying frenzy that's going on

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<v Speaker 3>right now in DC given this as a topic of

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<v Speaker 3>conversation with reconciliation.

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<v Speaker 4>It's absolutely incredible.

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<v Speaker 1>Let me give you another just a quick fact here

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<v Speaker 1>that really surprised me when I discovered.

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<v Speaker 2>It a couple of months ago, and.

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<v Speaker 1>That is is that the highest compensated healthcare insurance CEO

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<v Speaker 1>in the country is a Medicaid managed care provider. He

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<v Speaker 1>covers Medicaid recipients. Eighty eight percent of his beneficiaries are

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<v Speaker 1>on Medicaid, the rest are on the other twelve percent

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<v Speaker 1>are either on Obamacare subsidized plans or Medicare advantage plan.

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<v Speaker 1>They cover about five point two million people in America.

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<v Speaker 1>This is the highest compensated health insurance CEO in the country.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, like I don't you want to speak

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<v Speaker 1>for other people, but I personally believe that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we shouldn't be creating a system where you can get

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<v Speaker 1>rich off of providing.

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<v Speaker 2>Welfare to people, right.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that that's wrong and also one.

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<v Speaker 1>In which one hundred percent of your revenue is connected

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<v Speaker 1>to the federal government. Right, Like we should, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we should have a better profit motive for people who

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<v Speaker 1>could make money by actually improving people's lives and making

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<v Speaker 1>them healthier.

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<v Speaker 3>Amen to that sounds like a lot of the problems

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<v Speaker 3>we're have with non governmental organizations just generally speaking. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>they exist to create jobs for the people that work

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<v Speaker 3>within the organizations and taking federal taxpayer dollars and really

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<v Speaker 3>I think going out into the world and literally accomplishing

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<v Speaker 3>nothing except perhaps letting the money loop back a little

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<v Speaker 3>bit to line the pockets and politicians in DC.

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<v Speaker 2>BINGO. I mean, that's exactly right.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, one of the things actually, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>that we've been talking to some of the members of

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<v Speaker 1>COMMRESCE about is that there's pretty good data on how

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<v Speaker 1>when you expand Medicaid and other welfare programs, democratic turnout

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<v Speaker 1>in democratic counties goes up. And the reason for that

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<v Speaker 1>is because the healthcare industrial and welfare industrial complex uses

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<v Speaker 1>these NGOs that are that are that are far left

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<v Speaker 1>in many cases, like planned parenthood and others to help

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<v Speaker 1>them enroll people. And then and that gives those same

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<v Speaker 1>NGO's access to you know, names and addresses, which allows

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<v Speaker 1>them to go out and and increase turnout right and into.

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<v Speaker 4>Put into boot harvest and uh. And so you know,

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<v Speaker 4>by by expanding.

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<v Speaker 1>The welfare state, not only are we creating a culture

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<v Speaker 1>of dependency, but we're also creating a culture that feeds

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<v Speaker 1>one party, one political party over the other.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's intentional.

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<v Speaker 1>They that's they they know that that's what they're doing.

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<v Speaker 3>We are you didn't you didn't come looking for an

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<v Speaker 3>argument today, doctor Paul Winfrey. Unbelievable, so so revealing and

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<v Speaker 3>so nefarious. If I can boil down this entire concept

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<v Speaker 3>of what's gone on, what's what's unfolded over the years

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<v Speaker 3>with Medicaid, EPIC, ep I CE, epic for America dot org.

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<v Speaker 3>Really valuable website you've got going there and the work

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<v Speaker 3>that you're doing there is just is so important.

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much for spending time with my listeners

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<v Speaker 3>and enlightening them and me on the how bad this

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<v Speaker 3>is out there. And let's keep our fingers crossed and

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<v Speaker 3>we do get some reform paths, because this is a

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<v Speaker 3>this is a sinking ship round. This is just one

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<v Speaker 3>part of the of the budget and clearly we have

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<v Speaker 3>outspent ourselves to a degree that I think it's an

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<v Speaker 3>existential threat to our existence as a country.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you very much for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>I really appreciate it. It's been my pleasure, sir. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 3>Eight twenty one fifty five kr C Detalk station Jeez

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<v Speaker 3>Louise Cover Since you get in touch with Cover Sincy

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<v Speaker 3>to find out about a better way to get yourself

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<v Speaker 3>medical insurance. Speaking of which, John Rowlman and the team

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<v Speaker 3>of Cover Sincy are medical insurance brokers. They work for

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<v Speaker 3>you and they are able to put most of the

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<v Speaker 3>coverage upfront, so you have very little and maybe even

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<v Speaker 3>often cases no out of pocket responsibility. You can pick

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<v Speaker 3>your doctors and it's thirty six, thirty to sixty percent

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<v Speaker 3>lower costs than Obamacare. You heard me correct on that

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<v Speaker 3>they work with hundreds of insurance companies, thousands of insurance

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<v Speaker 3>policies out There's what they do is put a package

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<v Speaker 3>of policies together designed specifically for you and where you

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<v Speaker 3>are at this point in your life. You may have kids,

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<v Speaker 3>you may have to insure your family, may be a

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<v Speaker 3>younger person maybe not making a whole lot of money.

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<v Speaker 3>You don't buy medical insurance. You're in for a world

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<v Speaker 3>to hurt. If something happens for you, he can make

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<v Speaker 3>it affordable for you. My son got insured through Cover Cincy.

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<v Speaker 3>I got lots of friends and lots of folks out

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<v Speaker 3>in the listening audience took me up with my recommendation

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<v Speaker 3>just to give them a call. Initiate the conversation. Doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>cost you anything but a little bit of your time,

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<v Speaker 3>no money. You're not obligated to do anything. They'll take

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<v Speaker 3>a look at where you are and come up with

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<v Speaker 3>a better way. And best case you could probably get

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<v Speaker 3>is no, you are in the best spot you can

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<v Speaker 3>be medically wise. But then you get the value of

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<v Speaker 3>the whole team as you move forward. Once you're working

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<v Speaker 3>with Cover Sincy. You got a claim problem, you don't

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<v Speaker 3>have to even get on the phone with the insurance company.

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<v Speaker 3>You call up the team, Hey, they denied a claim.

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<v Speaker 3>They'll iron it out for you. That's a role that

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<v Speaker 3>they take on. So save a lot of money, get

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<v Speaker 3>get better medical insurance company coverage. Call five one three

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<v Speaker 3>eight hundred call five one three eight hundred two two

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<v Speaker 3>five five. You can fill the format online. It's easy

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<v Speaker 3>to do. Coversincy dot com fifty five KRC