Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome to the Kylie Cast. I'm Kylie Griswold,
Managing editor at The Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever
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If you'd like to email the show, you can do
so at radio at the Federalist dot com. I would
love to hear from you today. I am thrilled to
welcome to the show, Kirk Cameron. You might know Kirk
as the teen actor in Growing Pains, or you might
know him as the left Behind guy. Maybe you know
him from his videos with Ray Comfort or from his
children's books and library tour. No matter what you know
him from, he's a really interesting guy. We had a
great conversation. We talked about his time in Hollywood, what
it was like to become a father, as well as
how his views have changed since being the Left Behind guy,
and what you've all been waiting for the conversation about Hellgate,
about Kirk Cameron's views on hell and annihilationism that got
him into some hot water recently and broke the internet.
You will see it all here today. You don't want
to miss it, So without further ado, please welcome to
the show, Kirk Cameron. Kirk Cameron, it is such a
pleasure to have you on the Kylie Cast.
Speaker 2: Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1: So cool to have you joining. It's so funny because
people listening or watching might know you from many, many
different eras. I first heard about you from my mom's
era of growing pains, and then my familiarity with you
started with the Left Behind days and fire Proof actually,
and now of course you are doing something completely different,
so I would love to start back kind of at
the very beginning. I would love if you could just
fill me in on like your Hollywood days, your conversion
to Christianity, how that affected your time in Hollywood, and
then getting married leaving Hollywood. What did all of that
look like. That's a big question, But if you can
just give us kind of the backstory would be great.
Speaker 3: Let's go back to the eighties and then we'll go
up into the early two thousands.
Speaker 2: That will come up. So I'm not a time traveler
or am I. Let's see.
Speaker 3: You know, I never even wanted to be an actor
when I was a little kid. I wanted to be
a doctor. But my mom had a friend who said,
you should go talk to this agent. You live in Hollywood, California,
maybe your kids could be on some McDonald's commercials save
up enough money for college. So we did, and I
started working as a little kid and landed the role
of Mike Siever on Growing Pains.
Speaker 2: So Growing Pains was.
Speaker 3: The sitcom in the nineteen eighties that was kind of
alongside my sister's show Full House. Some people have never
put those connected, those dots. Candice Cameron Kirk Cameron, we're
brother and sister.
Speaker 2: And now.
Speaker 3: We're growing up and married, and yeah, movies like Left
Behind that was after I came to faith in Christ,
and then movies like Fireproof. And so I meet people
from different generations who know me. Some kids now know
me from Iggy and Mister Kirk, which is the children's
television show I'm doing with Brave Books, and it's kind
of like our version of Mister Rogers Neighborhood for this generation's.
Speaker 1: Families, which we desperately need. By the way, So were
you raised in a Christian home but just didn't become
a Christian until later, or what did your conversion story
look like.
Speaker 2: I was not raised in a Christian home. I believe
that my mom had a love for Jesus.
Speaker 3: Ever since she was a little girl, but my dad
was not raised in a Christian home, and so it
never really took root in our family. And it was
when I was about eighteen years old, a professing atheist,
that I went to a church because a really cute
girl invited me and I heard the gospel. I began
asking questions and became persuaded that it would require more
faith to hang on to my atheism and believe that
God did not exist than it would to believe in
an intelligent designer and someone who actually gives some philosophical
and moral foundation to believing that anything actually means anything.
And so I investigated that along with the resurrection and
the Bible and became persuaded that it was true, and
I wanted to be a Christian at that point.
Speaker 1: Amen. Yeah, So did you just find that the Hollywood
culture was incompatible with that faith and that's why you
moved to more Christian films and then ultimately left the
Hollywood scene or why was that?
Speaker 2: I think that's a fair analysis.
Speaker 3: We would look at Hollywood and say, this is not
something that is, you know, pumping out biblically driven stories,
although that's not actually totally true. So many of the
best stories in Hollywood are actually stealing from the Bible's
storylines because those are the stories that resonate most with
the human heart, because I think they ultimately reflect the
Biblical story of heroes and underdogs and against all odds
when all hope seems lost, life comes back from death,
beauty from ashes kind of a thing. But for me,
I thought being an actor was cool. Hollywood is often
pitted against faith and goodness and moral virtue, but I
don't think it has to be. In fact, I think
filmmaking and television and the arts and creativity has been
democratized through technology and a breakup of the big studios,
and now anybody with a camera can make their own
documentary or film anywhere in the world and get it
distributed on YouTube. So while I may have left Hollywood
proper in southern California, I now live in Tennessee. I'm
still part of an industry of creatives who is trying
to turn out truth and goodness and beauty in the
form of stories and creative projects that are going to
bring a little bit more of than to earth and
shape young people's worldview.
Speaker 2: So did I leave Hollywood kind of what kind of
not right? Right?
Speaker 1: And we saw, of course a lot of that with
your work with Ray Comfort, which I know was very influential.
We used to watch your videos with him in school
and it really made us think about a lot of
questions about the nature of good and evil and and
you know what the what the eternal gamble kind of
looks like. So those were very influential for me, I
know as well. So you have six children, several several
of them you welcome through adoption. I know. Can you
just tell me what was it like becoming a dad
and what are what do you think are the biggest
things you've learned through fatherhood. M Well, it's a big question,
I know.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: So my wife Chelsea and I we met on the
set of Growing Pains. We were a boyfriend and girlfriend
on the show. We've now been married for thirty five years.
We have raised six children. You're right, some of them
are adopted. We can't remember which ones. They're all ours.
We kind of great they adopted us and now they're
grown and they've moved out and they're starting their own families.
Speaker 2: And we have a granddaughter. So I would say that
I've learned that.
Speaker 3: Marriage and family is ground zero for advancing the good
in the world. And I think we can look to
scripture and see that in the very beginning, God didn't
create the federal government. Right in the very beginning, God.
Speaker 2: Created a man and a woman and told them to
be fruitful and multiply. And I.
Speaker 3: Think that, you know, we are the way we are
so that we can raise generations of children and through
the family, download heaven and distribute.
Speaker 2: It to earth.
Speaker 3: And so what I've learned as a as a man.
Is that being a husband and being a father. If
God and his goodness and his providence allows us to
fill those roles as husbands and wives, mothers and fathers,
whether it's adoption or natural birth or whatever, it's a
great privilege and it's a sacred duty. And so I
want to make the most of every opportunity. You know,
family's tricky, family's difficult. It's also a school where you
have to learn how to die to yourself. You know,
if you don't learn how to forgive and how to
be selfless, your marriage probably won't survive. And if you don't,
you know, if you're not driven to your knees by
the end of the day as a parent, broken and
in prayer, you're probably not doing it right.
Speaker 2: Because it's difficult, but it's wonderful. It's the best thing
in the whole world.
Speaker 3: And I think that's how God is advancing his kingdom
here on earth is primarily through the instrument of the family.
Speaker 1: Well, and of course we know of the importance of
family from scripture, like it's very much a part of
our ca worldview. But even if you're not a Christian,
you can see that this is just self evidently true.
I mean, Brad Wilcox at the Institute for Family Studies
and many others have documented the phenomenon of even the
happiness among adults who are married with children versus those
who are not. There's just this component of self giving
that is clearly what we were designed for. Even if
you fight that within your own life like it's it's
so obvious in the world around us. What you identities.
Speaker 3: Jumping real quick if you're hoping to find I just
want to say that there are people out there who
would love to have children, who would love to meet
their person and get married, and have just not had
that opportunity, right, And God bless you. God has very
unique purposes and plans, I believe for every.
Speaker 2: Single one of us. Jesus was not married.
Speaker 3: Jesus did not have children, and yet he was the
person who impacted the world.
Speaker 2: Like no one else ever. And so there are exceptions
and there are rules.
Speaker 3: But I think our culture has downgraded marriage and family
and children so much, and and and we do that
at our own peril, and and so I just want
to say that that God knows exactly what he's doing,
and He's got you exactly where he wants you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Amen, Well, this is just a shameless plug for
our listeners and viewers to go back and watch the
recent interview that I did with Leif Fitzpatrick Snead. She
wrote a book recently called Infertile But Fruitful, and she
tells the story of her and her husband's infertility journey.
And at the end of that journey she never did
get a pregnancy, but they did become parents through adoption.
But through every part of her story, even before they
had children, is still fruitfulness. And it's just so evident
in every part of her life and in her marriage,
and and even if she were not married, God has
fruitful plans for people who are not yet or will
never be even fruitful if they desire it.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, we could go on and on.
Speaker 3: Right the Apostible Paul had said as much that there
are different concerns and responsibilities and cares that you have
when you're married that you don't have when you're single.
And I believe frees you up to be able to
do things that married people and family.
Speaker 2: Folks just would not be doing because they have other
responsibilities and and and and we need all.
Speaker 1: Of us mhm. Exactly. Let's let's go back to left
Behind for a minute. I'd love to just know, and
this is another big question, but I love to know
how your personal eschatological views have changed since your left
Behind days.
Speaker 2: Here we go, you know, you know, I just I just.
Speaker 3: I'm just getting over the scorching after talking about the
subject of hell, and you want to get into eschatology.
Speaker 1: Oh, we're going to get to hell next, So buckle up.
I'm warming you up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, warming me up for a hell. No, let's see.
Speaker 3: So eschatology is another one of those fascinating topics that
that that I don't have.
Speaker 2: I don't I don't have it all figured out yet,
But what I do find.
Speaker 1: We won't Who does you know? We we haven't gotten
there so well.
Speaker 3: I some of our friends have. I think Vodi Bacham
and John MacArthur. They finally they know the deal because
they've gone on to be with the Lord yes and
uh and and and when they find out that they've
disagreed with each other on so many things, and and
they find out the truth from Jesus himself, that's got
to be a shock. So I don't think that that
we can know everything, because there's there's there's mystery there
that I think is we need to hold on to
as mystery. But eschatology is another one of those fascinating topics.
I never thought there was another position beside premillennial dispensationalism
left behind. You know, in simple terms that everybody's gonna
vanish and Christians are going to disappear, and planes, trains
and automobiles are going to be crashing with clothes left
on the floor, just like you saw in the movies
or read in the book.
Speaker 2: But you discover, oh.
Speaker 3: Wow, there's a whole different position called amillennialism. There is
classic premillennialism, and then there's dispensationalism. There's also post millennialism.
There's partial preadism, there's full preterism. There's all sorts of
positions about the tribulation, pre trib midtrim, post trip, pre wrap.
There's all these things, and you think, wow, how could
this be so confusing? And this is all within the church.
This isn't even like the atheist position that says it's
all a fairy tale. So I find it fascinating. I
love these in house conversations. What I don't like is
when people start to divide and call one another, heretics
over topics like, you know, what is the nature of
the Second Coming?
Speaker 2: And what is the timing of the second Coming? And
how does that relate to.
Speaker 3: Different aspects of people who have died before us and
people who will die in the future. I think scripture
gives a a lot of clues, but there is still
some mystery there.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm hmmm. Uh yeah, absolutely, And how much we
miss out on when we focus when we major on
the miners. Not that not that it doesn't matter, because
of course the end times do very much matter. But again,
until we are part of the cloud of witnesses, we
will not know for sure. So yeah, we need to
to major on the majors, I guess. But is it weird?
Speaker 2: How is that for a how is that for a
non answer?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I noticed that you skirted around that just just
a little bit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll let the I'll let the I'll let the
deer out of out of out of the woods just
a little bit instead of the cow the cat out
of the bag.
Speaker 1: This is a first on the podcast, by the way.
Speaker 3: I can't I can tell you that the more that
I've studied church history, the more that I've studied the scriptures. I'm, I'm,
I'm it's pretty safe to say that I've left behind
left behind.
Speaker 1: Sure, that's a that's a good answer. That's a better
answer than your first one. Yeah. Well, and I think,
of course, you know, there are things that matter so
much more than our views on eschatology. But I do
think there are flare ups of this that that bring
it into a little bit of sharper sharper focus. For instance,
you know, like when we consider our foreign policy toward
Israel and when that is shaped by our views of
dispensationalism or not, or you know, things like that where
it isn't just it is just a cerebral conversation, it
is something that actually bleeds into how we live and
how we craft policy, and how we how we yeah,
how we conduct ourselves in the public square and in private.
So so for those reasons, I do think, you know,
there is a level of importance that's worth talking about.
Speaker 2: Oh, I think you're so right.
Speaker 3: And to be honest, I never even connected the dots
and saw the implications of our view about end times
because it's a it's a book, it's a movie, it's
a fiction book, right, And we say, well, that's really
going to happen, because that's what the Bible says. But
that really informs our view of Israel, and Israel is
all in the news. Israel is you know, is involved
in wars, and the United States politically is tied in
and militarily and financially, and so you go, wow, could
this actually result in.
Speaker 2: People going to war? The left behind movies or not?
Speaker 3: And it's very interesting if you really do a deep
dive into it.
Speaker 2: It's not conspiracy to you know, to foil hat stuff.
Speaker 3: This is like real and it really does impact foreign policy.
And we've got to think through these things.
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Speaker 1: Right right well, and just being sure to be careful
about recognizing our calling as Christians, are our great commission
as Christians to go and make disciples, to preach the gospel,
to evangelize, and not to look at the end times
as we need to usher in this final judgment, because
that is not our role, that is not our job.
Speaker 3: Yes, I agree, you know, I'm not looking for judgment.
Speaker 2: I'm not looking for war.
Speaker 3: I'm looking for revival and an opportunity to share the
Gospel with the lost, and we want there's a whole
I believe there's millions of people out there who are.
Speaker 2: Just waiting to hear the gospel of their salvation.
Speaker 3: And so we should preach it to them.
Speaker 1: Yes, So would you say, I know we're still skirting
a little bit, but would you say that your view
is that things are generally getting better or getting worse? Like,
do you do you lean towards post millennialism or not?
Speaker 3: Well, what I would say is that your view on
the future, and specifically whether it's getting better or worse,
has to be framed with.
Speaker 2: Some time markers in place.
Speaker 3: If you were to go back a thousand years and
you said, are things getting better or worse, well, you
could say, wow, things are getting worse. I mean we're
at an age where kings and queens are killing Christians
and it looks like it's the end. And then you
find out, oh wait a minute, a Reformation is coming
and a revival and a great awakening is coming. But
you couldn't see that then, And so here we are today,
where things are much much better, I believe, than living
a thousand years ago or fifteen hundred years ago. I mean,
we don't have Christians being thrown to lions in a
colosseum or lit on fire and raised up to illuminate
nighttime entertainment like they did during the Roman Empire. So
things are much better today. We have sermons and churches
and books everywhere proclaiming the Gospel around the world. Healthcare
is better, a quality of life is better, people are
living longer, all of this kind of stuff. But we're
consumed with this idea that because in the nineteen fifties
we had to leave it to beaver or our grandparents
didn't have to deal with, you know, purple haired, nos
ringed women who think that they're men, you know, built
like linebackers. That things are just getting worse and it
must mean that the anti Christ is coming and the
rapture will be here by Tuesday. We hold on like,
go back to the Roman Empire, go back to the
time where you know you would get thrown in prison
and drowned or beheaded for being a Christian, much worse
in my opinion. And so I'm all for long term.
I don't know how much time we have on this earth,
and so I just want to be focused on God's
faithfulness and the opportunity that I have to preach the
Gospel with revival and a great awakening in view. It's
happened before, at the worst times that you could possibly imagine,
and I think that is the tea up for better
days ahead, and so I want to be at the
heart of that kind of a revival.
Speaker 1: I do think we got a taste of that a
little bit at the end of last year with the
martyrdom of Charlie Kirk. And you know, of course, we
know martyrs are the seeds of the church, and we
saw that, I mean, attendance skyrocketing, and of course not
all of that is sustained, but there are still these
moments of revival even amid you know, our modern day
versions of so many of these things. You know, we're
not chucking babies into the nile anymore or sacrificing them,
you know, to the God, to to like right, what
am I looking for? To idols, to images, but we
sacrifice them to the God of self. And we you know,
we still we still, we still do the same things.
History is just it goes around the same cul de
sac and so it looks different. But you know, even today,
you know, talking about like the persecution of Christians, we
can comfortably say that we are, you know, not experiencing
these beheadings and whatnot, but you know, our brothers and
sisters in Nigeria are, and so you know, it just
it depends. Of course, it's all shaped by your perspective.
And there were so many times throughout history where people
thought this was the end, this is the end, and
it wasn't, and so it's just but I do think
it is healthy. It's healthier not in like a conspiratorial
way or you know, looking at the calendar like, oh,
I think we're gonna predict that it's on this day,
but to look toward the coming of Christ with the
expectation that it will happen during your lifetime, rather than
thinking that, oh no, this is just we're still just
you know, going around the same cycle like it wasn't
then it's probably not going to be now, because we
should be looking toward that with anticipation and expectation. Correct.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but again I don't have a crystal ball. And
so many people who really major on this they want
to take versus from scripture that were written in you know,
that first century, and many of these things were events
that took place in the first century. These were things
that they could look they could literally look forward to
seeing in their lifetime. And then there are other things
that are I think rightly understood to be far into
the future, and so we've got to wrestle with these things.
That's why I like having roundtable discussions. That's why I
like having conversations like this is so that we can
explore different ideas and understand that we're not the first
person who ever thought about these things. We've got thousands
of years of history of people debating these things with
brilliant minds far smarter than I am, and I can
learn from them. What I do know is that I've
got today. I want to make the most of the opportunity.
I want to preach the gospel. God's got the future
in his hands, and I don't know how much I'm
supposed to know. I should find it fascinating. I like
to talk about it, but I want to live with
a sense of urgency and anticipation and make the most
of the days that I have.
Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, And I think we're saying the same thing there,
that it's just the urgency and anticipation by just expecting
that the Lord has said that he will do this,
that means that he will do this. So no matter
whether it's twenty four hours or twenty four thousand more years,
I mean, it truly doesn't matter. Because our mission is unchanged.
It's the same. Yeah. So, speaking of tossing ideas around
and discussing things like this, let's circle back to the
hell conversation because I know that this has gotten you
into some hot water recently, and I'm just I'm loving
bringing up stuff that is just difficult, difficult and not
fun to talk about. So let's talk about Hellgate for
just a few minutes. Can you just first explain what
it is for people who did not see the initial
clips or the initial full podcast that you posted with
your son, who have no idea what I'm talking about, Like,
what exactly happened that got you into some hotwater?
Speaker 2: So this year I lost a show we called The
Kirk Cameron Show.
Speaker 3: It's not really original, but in it, my son and
I have these dangerous conversations and I tell him, James,
you can ask me anything you want. I'll be honest
with you. And sometimes he gets me into trouble, and
he certainly did this time. He asked me, Dad, what
actually happens in hell? When someone dies? Are they tormented
forever consciously in the presence of God, forever and ever
and ever? Or are they annihilated? And are they snuffed
out like a candle wick when you snuff out the flame.
And he was talking about this because he has some
friends who were really wrestling.
Speaker 2: With this, trying to understand how.
Speaker 3: Eternal conscious torment can coincide with a loving and merciful God,
and would ask certain questions like how can a finite
amount of sin be justly punished with an infinite amount
of torment? Like after a billion years, you're not one
second closer to it being over. And he talked about
some historical positions held within the church called conditional immortality
or annihilationism. And we had this conversation and I ended
up catching hell for it, pardon the pun.
Speaker 2: A lot of fiery discussion from.
Speaker 3: Church leaders and YouTubers saying that I was a heretic,
others saying, no, this isn't heresy, it's history. Martin Luther
talked about these things. Early church fathers talked about these things.
One of my favorite apologists today, Wes Huff, said, you
know what, most people have never even engaged with the
material on the conditional immortality side. And so I decided,
instead of just being offended by my own brothers calling
me a heretic, I thought, well, let's do a deep
dive and have a roundtable discussion. John Piper did this
years ago on the subject of eschatology and it was
a pre millennial, a millennial and post millennial perspective in
a roundtable, and I thought, well, let's do.
Speaker 2: This with Hell.
Speaker 3: I called it Hellgate because many people are scandalized by
the topic of Hell, and it's out now people can
watch it. It's a two and a half hour deep
dive on what the Bible really says about Hell because
it matters to God and it matters to the people
that we love.
Speaker 1: Well, and it really is a helpful watch. I would
encourage all of our listeners and followers to go and
watch it because it really stealmanned both of the positions.
You really get straight from you know, straight from the
horse's mouth. What do people who believe in this position think?
And versus the other side, and using scripture to defend
to defend both positions. It's two and a half hours,
but you can bump up the speed a little bit
and watch it fairly quickly. It's really really excellent. So
I mean, first of all, it goes without saying that
this is just another example of the stupidity of the
internet to clip things and take them out of context
for views and clicks, and just the unhelpfulness, especially among believers,
to do this to each other like that. That's so divisive.
It's not helpful. It does nothing good for the church.
It does nothing good for advancing the gospel. I mean,
like you can you can watch the entirety of the
podcast and walk away saying, I don't know, I don't
think that's right, but to post a clip of it
and then that fuel your outrage. Don't don't fall for
the rage bait people. This is not this is not helpful,
especially within the body of Christ.
Speaker 2: That's so true. And that was my one of my
biggest surprises.
Speaker 3: Not only that people had such strong feelings about it,
but I didn't expect the cancel culture and the SmackDown
and the insults to come from the church. I expected
it from the progressive left, the atheists. But to have
leaders within the church call me a heretic, I thought
to myself, Wow, this is crazy.
Speaker 2: I mean, you're call you would be calling Martin Luther
a heretic.
Speaker 3: You'd be calling some of the church Father's heretics, and
and perhaps some of them were, But this is certainly
something that's within the pale of Christian biblical thought, and
most people just don't understand it or even know why
they hold the position that they hold. That's why I
made Hellgate, so that we could get four scholars from
around the world, the best and the brightest, to talk
about this respectfully with intellectual hospitality, using Scripture as our
north star, not our own intuition, not our traditions, as
important as those are. We've ultimately got to come down
to what does the Bible really.
Speaker 1: Say right well, and it's another case of majoring on
the miners, like we talked about before. I do not
think that this is a first order issue. It does
not affect our Christian witness. It does not affect it
doesn't have to affect unity within the Body of Christ.
As long as you are applying the whole council of
Scripture to it, it does not you know, changing your
view on the doctrine of hell does not inherently cause
you to undermine other doctrines. I think, you know, we
need to be careful that the way that we're approaching scripture,
the way that we are, you know, the way that
our exegesis and hermoneutics go that we're not bringing too
much of our feeling and that that you know that
that can be a slippery slope, but it's not inherently so.
Speaker 3: And Kylie, can I can I can I double click
on something you just said. You were saying, this is
not a primary issue for Christians, we don't need to
divide over it.
Speaker 2: But here's the thing. Remember, for my neighbor, it often
is the primary thing.
Speaker 3: It is the hurdle he can't get over. I mean,
I can give you evidence for the resurrection of Jesus
Christ that is pretty stink and compelling. It You've still
got to exercise faith. But evidence for an intelligent designer,
for the credibility of the Bible as a historical document
is not that difficult. But for my neighbor, what is
often the mount everest he cannot climb is the idea
of a God who appears to him to be the
moral monster that torments people for ever and ever in hell.
And so we have to, as believers, say we can't
just sideline this and say, oh, it's a secondary issue.
Speaker 2: I understand what we.
Speaker 3: Mean by that, But for my neighbor, it's a primary issue.
And maybe the obstacle that's preventing him from embracing the gospel.
We don't want to soft sell anything. We don't want
to mute scripture. We want to be able to have
dangerous conversations so that we may be able to say
to him, there are other perspectives that have been held
throughout the church and the thing that you are terrified of, Well,
let me tell you another perspective that I personally find
compelling and scriptural that may open the door for you
to walk through and allow God to answer some of
these questions pretty differently.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's push let's push on that even just
a little bit more, because I don't disagree that it
is that it could be a primary issue for someone.
You know, somebody might have no problem believing in the resurrection,
but they can't believe in a God who would send
you know, quote unquote good people to health, for instance.
But I do worry because hell is not the only
place where people can get hung up on this and
turn something. You know, that it can be the primary
stumbling block to keep them from coming to faith. And
I mean, they're there are others that come to mind.
One of them is, you know, I have friends who
identify as LGBT or whatnot, and and I mean this
is one example among many. Anything could be the primary
thing that that keeps you from coming to faith. And
I and you know they their contention or maybe what
would keep them from coming to Christ is what would
God really prevent me from living, you know, a monogamous
you know, devoted life with the person that I love whatever.
And you know, I think, of course we can run
the risk. And we've seen plenty of so called Christians,
you know, completely reneg on this. This portion of the
faith of well, no, this is actually you know you
have a firm in churches now, which is which is
the danger there? And I just I what I fear
is not putting yourselves in the shoes of an unbeliever
to evangelize to them and thinking through you know, what
is stopping them up? How can we help them overcome
these hurdles, but using that as a starting point to
how we exposit scripture as like, you know, if that
is inhibiting us from our evangelism, we know that the
gospel is foolishness and offensive to people who are perishing.
So how do we how do we you know, merge
these two things where we we don't falter in our
witness by presenting a view of hell that is that is,
there are no other positions on this whatever, but also
recognizing that you know, God has to do the work
of bringing people to himself, of removing our hearts of
stone replacing them with hearts of flesh. We can't do
that by coming to scripture with this concern that people
are not going to find the gospel palatable because of Hell.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: Uh? If we've said a lot right here, could you
just condense that down to a simple question, and I'll
do my best to answer it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sorry, I'm very worried today.
Speaker 2: I hear you.
Speaker 3: It's it's not it's not easy to stream line all
of these thoughts.
Speaker 1: My fear is that our personal discomfort with Hell, because
it is uncomfortable, no matter what your view of it is,
our personal discomfort with Hell or the discomfort with Hell,
that the unbelievers in our lives feel, that that will
affect our exegesis of scripture. And how do we prevent that?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that would be a terrible idea to begin
to try to make scripture accommodate our preferences. Right If
my neighbor came out and said, you know, I just
don't want to believe that Jesus is the only way
to heaven. I'm not going to try to twist scripture
to fit that view. I'm not going to avoid the topic.
But I do want to thoughtfully answer questions if I'm
able to, and if I don't know the answer to
the question, I've got to be comfortable enough to say
I don't know. And the reason I can say I
don't know is because I'm not God. So I don't
know everything, and I'm confident that God does know, and
he is able to give you.
Speaker 2: Answers if you need them.
Speaker 3: So we shouldn't be afraid of hell, We shouldn't be
afraid of same sex attraction, We shouldn't be afraid of
concerns that people have because the truth is not vulnerable
to people's questions. The truth can stand up. We just
don't want to misrepresent the truth because we've held on
to traditions, or we have blind spots and have not
thought it through, and we're saying things about God, about Hell,
about marriage, about sexuality and identity that are a misrepresentation
of scripture. So I would say lean in and ask people,
what are you uncomfortable about with Christianity? What are the
most ridiculous positions that you detect within scripture? What are
the things that are stopping you from believing what I'm
telling you? And then I would say engage on those
things because those are the roadblocks and there are good
answers to those questions and concerns.
Speaker 1: M hm. So I know through your initial podcast with
your son is It James, you had expressed some of
your concerns with the traditional view of how the eternal
conscious suffering, eternal conscious punishment, torment, whatever word you want
to use. I'm curious if you have any concerns with
the other view after you know more study and you know,
are there any things that bug you or nag at you,
or don't don't quite sit right with the conditional immortality
annihilationist view.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I would encourage people to watch
hellgate or do a study on it. I think I'm
going to try to get Ai to to give us
a summary that you could read in maybe ten minutes,
because two and a half hours is quite a bit,
so that you understand what conditional immortality is actually all about.
With regard to questions or things that bug me. Listen,
everything bothers me about Hell. I mean, this is sort
of like the obvious thing Jesus said, if your eye
or your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut
it off, gauge it out, and be better to enter
heaven with without an eye, without an eye, without a foot,
without a hand, then to have.
Speaker 2: All of it and go to Hell.
Speaker 3: This is a punishment that is eternal, do anything to
avoid it, and the solution is the Gospel. So that's
that's where we all land with with Hellgate. With regard
to the positions, of course, the idea of somebody being
in torment forever and ever, whether it's C. S. Lewis's
view of the of the sort of the twisting and
disfiguring of your so as a human being kind of
like Smigele becoming Gollum over time, just rotting from within
as we're separated from all things that are good, your
own pride and selfishness destroying you, or whether it's you know,
torment and flames like the Church has believed for many, many, many,
many hundreds of years, and physical bodies that feel those
kinds of things.
Speaker 2: That's super bothering.
Speaker 3: But as two of the scholars pointed out, there appears
to be a conscious experience in the punishment and.
Speaker 2: That it is enduring. On the annihilationist side, they're saying, no,
this is figurative language.
Speaker 3: We're talking about the Book of Revelation in particular, where
it's really ground zero for these things, with the lake
of fire and smoke and torment day and night without rest,
rising forever and ever.
Speaker 2: That this is language.
Speaker 3: There is also side by side with a woman who
is standing you know, over the moon, and she's clothed
in the sun, and there's a big red dragon and
beasts and with horns and heads, and so this is
obviously symbolics figurative language, and what is it symbolizing?
Speaker 2: And how does.
Speaker 3: This relate to Jewish thought? You know, I find the
conditionalist perspective very very compelling, persuasive, thoughtful, and scriptural. But
I also understand why I could be wrong, because most
all of my heroes hold the traditional view, And so
I just have great respect for those who handle the
word of God and the human heart with carefulness and
and and and great care and don't throw spears at
one another for trying to understand this better.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm hmm. Yeah, I think you brought up the
better to pluck out your eye than to and and
you know, enter heaven blind than to be thrown into
the lake of fire or whatever the exact the exact
phrasing is. And there's of course several several examples given
in that passage. Let's see. I think it's in Mark.
I think this is the first I'd considered this. But
even that passage gives me a little bit of pause
because the implication of the text is basically, it's better
to torture yourself. It's better to torture yourself, uh, and
and avoid sin and enter into the Kingdom of Heaven
than to be then then to be thrown into hell.
And then of course that's what gets into uh where
the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
And of course I know the conditional immortality view, you know,
would say that maybe the fire is not quenched, but
that does not mean that that human souls are not quenched. Whatever.
It's hard for me to imagine a place where the
worm does not die but human beings do. And I
just even the imagery of like it's better to cut
off your hand than to be thrown into hell, It's like, well,
why is that? Like, if if torture is temporary either way,
then why is that? And I know that's not like
that's not a typical proof text, But even as I
was reading that this week, it gave me a little
bit of pause because I'm like, what, what's the implication here?
If if either way the suffering is temporary, does that
make sense?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, these are these are good questions, and these are
the kinds of questions that that we dive deep into
with with Hellgate, as you as you saw and as
you heard, and there are there are robust arguments on
both sides of this. If you look at the language
that Jesus is using there, you're going to go back
to Isaiah sixty six, You're going to go back into
the Old Testament where you see that same language being
quoted by Jesus.
Speaker 2: And when when you.
Speaker 3: Look at places like Sodom and Gomorrow, when you look
at places like eatam Uh, these are places that are
not still burning although it refers to eternal fire, refers
to the smoke rising and never ending, and they would
say that this is referring to a final, complete destruction
and judgment.
Speaker 2: So that's why we did Hellgate, because it's not easy
enough to get to the bottom of.
Speaker 1: In my view, yeah, it's well worth the watch, walworth
the listen. Definitely I would encourage all of our viewers
to to go watch Hellgate. Definitely worth it. I of
course brought up like one of my very minor non
even proof text objections to it.
Speaker 3: I think, but these are the questions that I think
people want to, They want to they want to wrestle with.
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean this is this is a straight up
Bible study.
Speaker 3: This is the Bible revival that we need within the
church because too many people can go to church their
whole life and their pastors never going to.
Speaker 2: Talk about hell.
Speaker 3: Why because it freaks people out, it divides them. But
shouldn't we talk about it when Jesus talked about it
as much as he did. When our friends and family
souls are at stake, we've got to talk about these
things and we should know why we believe what we believe.
And I think the best way is to ask questions
like you're asking.
Speaker 1: The one thing that doesn't sit quite right with me
still or did and hell Gate didn't quite move the
needle needle for me on it was during your initial
podcast you had brought up the concern that you know,
is hell is the the idea of eternal conscious punishment,
eternal conscious torment? Is that really compatible with a God
who is loving and mercy? That yes, God is just,
but he is also these things and so can we?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: It's it kind of goes back to the classic retor
of could a love and God send people to hell?
But as a Christian, you know, asking like do is
what we know about the character of God. Is that
compatible with the idea that a loving God could send
h could send people to hell? And what still trips
me up about that, or is unconvincing for me, is
just that God perfectly defines both justice and love. He
is both of these things completely. But the way that
we experience God's love and mercy is ultimately through Christ
and the common grace that He gives us on earth
that should lead us to repentance in Him, repentance and faith.
And my question is, you know, we know that at
the end of time, every k nee will bow and
every tongue will confess that Christ is Lord. And yet
that is not an argument for universalism because not all
will continue into Heaven with Christ. So there's this recognition
that He's God. And yet the time for repentance, the
time for salvation is past. And you know, at that
time when the goats and the sheep are separated, when
the we is separated from the chaff, whatever biblical imagery
you want to use, you know, do we have reason
to believe that it is still time for mercy? You know?
Or is God has God's mercy like exhausted itself?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: Are we only experiencing Can God's mercy then only be
experienced through Christ in heaven? And do we need to
assume that those who are lost without Christ will continue
to experience his mercy because I don't know that. We
do need to believe that? Does that make sense?
Speaker 3: It totally makes sense. I agree with you. I'm there
with you on that. I don't think.
Speaker 2: I don't believe.
Speaker 3: I don't see any contradiction in the God of the
Bible not showing mercy to the wicked after they have
rejected the means of his mercy, which is the Gospel.
So I don't have any and I don't see a
connection there. I don't think that makes God a moral
monster at all. I agree with the logic. The greatest
commandment is to love God with all of our heart,
all of our mind, and with all of our strength.
He is deserving of infinite worship and obedience and reverence,
and to fail to do that is to commit an
infinite sin, and an infinite sin is deserving of an
infinite punishment. I see that tracks all the way through.
I'm just asking, is that what the Bible really teaches?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think Kirk, that we could probably have a
two hour conversation ourselves on this as two non experts,
but our time is short, so I am just going
to end on one final question that is so much
lighter than the health topic. I want to talk to
you about your children's book and see you at the
library day. That's the first way that we actually connected,
and I would just love to know. Can we expect
to see any more children's books from you? And are
you planning to re up the library tour in twenty
twenty six?
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I am so excited about seeing you at
the library in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2: So for those who.
Speaker 3: Aren't aware, you know I was locked out of public
libraries when I wanted to read books of Christian virtue,
about faith, hope and love to kids, even though they
were letting drag queens in there to read and teach
the Rainbow religion to these kids about sexual identity and
all this. And now under the new administration, we've been
invited to the Library of Congress, I mean, the largest,
most beautiful public library in the country to read these
books about loving your neighbor and about the priority of
family and trusting in God.
Speaker 1: Kirk is Brave Books dot Com also where people can
submit requests to be a library stop for the tour.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes you can. You can find a library, you
can host a library event. Go to brag books dot
com awesome.
Speaker 1: If you want to see Kirk Cameron in your own town,
submit a request there. Kirk, we are at time, but
I am so so thankful for your time today. I
had a great time talking with you. Thank you again
so much for joining the show. Thank you so much
for two into this week's episode of the Kylie Cast.
If you haven't done so already, please like and subscribe
wherever you get your podcasts. Go check out the hell
Gate video that Kirk Cameron posted recently. It's two and
a half hours, but it is well worth a listen,
and of course follow him on social media. Check out
his own podcast. I will be right back here next
week with more. So until then, just remember the truth hurts,
but it won't kill you.