1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome to the Kylie Cast. I'm Kylie Griswold, 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,839 Managing editor at The Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever 3 00:00:07,879 --> 00:00:11,359 you get your podcasts. We have a new channel specifically 4 00:00:11,359 --> 00:00:14,759 for the Kylie Cast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. So 5 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,839 if you are only subscribed to The Federalist Radio Hour, 6 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,440 or you're wrong with Molly Hemingway and David Harsani, two 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,519 of our other great Federalist podcasts, be sure you are 8 00:00:24,519 --> 00:00:27,559 subscribed to the Kylie Cast as well so you never 9 00:00:27,559 --> 00:00:29,920 miss an episode. Leave us a five star review. It's 10 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:31,760 one of the easiest and best ways you can help 11 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,159 out the show, and even better yet, if you're just 12 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,759 listening to the show, go check out the full video 13 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,679 version on my personal YouTube channel or the Federalists channel 14 00:00:40,719 --> 00:00:44,119 on Rumble, and then of course like and subscribe there too. 15 00:00:44,679 --> 00:00:46,320 If you'd like to email the show, you can do 16 00:00:46,399 --> 00:00:49,640 so at radio at the Federalist dot com. I would 17 00:00:49,719 --> 00:00:52,079 love to hear from you today. I am thrilled to 18 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,439 welcome to the show, Kirk Cameron. You might know Kirk 19 00:00:55,479 --> 00:00:57,679 as the teen actor in Growing Pains, or you might 20 00:00:57,719 --> 00:01:00,640 know him as the left Behind guy. Maybe you know 21 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:04,239 him from his videos with Ray Comfort or from his 22 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,200 children's books and library tour. No matter what you know 23 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,400 him from, he's a really interesting guy. We had a 24 00:01:09,439 --> 00:01:12,480 great conversation. We talked about his time in Hollywood, what 25 00:01:12,519 --> 00:01:15,120 it was like to become a father, as well as 26 00:01:15,439 --> 00:01:18,519 how his views have changed since being the Left Behind guy, 27 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:23,359 and what you've all been waiting for the conversation about Hellgate, 28 00:01:23,519 --> 00:01:27,040 about Kirk Cameron's views on hell and annihilationism that got 29 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,560 him into some hot water recently and broke the internet. 30 00:01:30,879 --> 00:01:33,480 You will see it all here today. You don't want 31 00:01:33,519 --> 00:01:35,920 to miss it, So without further ado, please welcome to 32 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:51,799 the show, Kirk Cameron. Kirk Cameron, it is such a 33 00:01:51,799 --> 00:01:53,359 pleasure to have you on the Kylie Cast. 34 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here. 35 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: So cool to have you joining. It's so funny because 36 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,719 people listening or watching might know you from many, many 37 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,319 different eras. I first heard about you from my mom's 38 00:02:07,359 --> 00:02:10,960 era of growing pains, and then my familiarity with you 39 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,639 started with the Left Behind days and fire Proof actually, 40 00:02:14,719 --> 00:02:17,919 and now of course you are doing something completely different, 41 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,039 so I would love to start back kind of at 42 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,000 the very beginning. I would love if you could just 43 00:02:24,039 --> 00:02:29,960 fill me in on like your Hollywood days, your conversion 44 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,719 to Christianity, how that affected your time in Hollywood, and 45 00:02:33,759 --> 00:02:36,639 then getting married leaving Hollywood. What did all of that 46 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,280 look like. That's a big question, But if you can 47 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,560 just give us kind of the backstory would be great. 48 00:02:42,439 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 3: Let's go back to the eighties and then we'll go 49 00:02:44,159 --> 00:02:45,560 up into the early two thousands. 50 00:02:45,599 --> 00:02:48,319 Speaker 2: That will come up. So I'm not a time traveler 51 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,680 or am I. Let's see. 52 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 3: You know, I never even wanted to be an actor 53 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:56,599 when I was a little kid. I wanted to be 54 00:02:56,759 --> 00:03:01,159 a doctor. But my mom had a friend who said, 55 00:03:01,199 --> 00:03:03,919 you should go talk to this agent. You live in Hollywood, California, 56 00:03:04,039 --> 00:03:06,680 maybe your kids could be on some McDonald's commercials save 57 00:03:06,759 --> 00:03:09,360 up enough money for college. So we did, and I 58 00:03:09,439 --> 00:03:12,520 started working as a little kid and landed the role 59 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,199 of Mike Siever on Growing Pains. 60 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 2: So Growing Pains was. 61 00:03:15,879 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 3: The sitcom in the nineteen eighties that was kind of 62 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,479 alongside my sister's show Full House. Some people have never 63 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:27,680 put those connected, those dots. Candice Cameron Kirk Cameron, we're 64 00:03:27,719 --> 00:03:29,000 brother and sister. 65 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: And now. 66 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 3: We're growing up and married, and yeah, movies like Left 67 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,599 Behind that was after I came to faith in Christ, 68 00:03:42,319 --> 00:03:45,080 and then movies like Fireproof. And so I meet people 69 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,599 from different generations who know me. Some kids now know 70 00:03:47,719 --> 00:03:51,400 me from Iggy and Mister Kirk, which is the children's 71 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,159 television show I'm doing with Brave Books, and it's kind 72 00:03:54,159 --> 00:03:58,879 of like our version of Mister Rogers Neighborhood for this generation's. 73 00:03:58,199 --> 00:04:03,439 Speaker 1: Families, which we desperately need. By the way, So were 74 00:04:03,479 --> 00:04:05,599 you raised in a Christian home but just didn't become 75 00:04:05,639 --> 00:04:08,280 a Christian until later, or what did your conversion story 76 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:08,680 look like. 77 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,159 Speaker 2: I was not raised in a Christian home. I believe 78 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:17,000 that my mom had a love for Jesus. 79 00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:19,439 Speaker 3: Ever since she was a little girl, but my dad 80 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,279 was not raised in a Christian home, and so it 81 00:04:21,319 --> 00:04:24,360 never really took root in our family. And it was 82 00:04:24,399 --> 00:04:27,480 when I was about eighteen years old, a professing atheist, 83 00:04:27,519 --> 00:04:30,720 that I went to a church because a really cute 84 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,519 girl invited me and I heard the gospel. I began 85 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,839 asking questions and became persuaded that it would require more 86 00:04:39,879 --> 00:04:43,800 faith to hang on to my atheism and believe that 87 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,560 God did not exist than it would to believe in 88 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:54,000 an intelligent designer and someone who actually gives some philosophical 89 00:04:54,240 --> 00:05:01,079 and moral foundation to believing that anything actually means anything. 90 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:06,079 And so I investigated that along with the resurrection and 91 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,839 the Bible and became persuaded that it was true, and 92 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,839 I wanted to be a Christian at that point. 93 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: Amen. Yeah, So did you just find that the Hollywood 94 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,560 culture was incompatible with that faith and that's why you 95 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,879 moved to more Christian films and then ultimately left the 96 00:05:20,879 --> 00:05:22,759 Hollywood scene or why was that? 97 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: I think that's a fair analysis. 98 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,199 Speaker 3: We would look at Hollywood and say, this is not 99 00:05:28,319 --> 00:05:34,079 something that is, you know, pumping out biblically driven stories, 100 00:05:34,319 --> 00:05:37,199 although that's not actually totally true. So many of the 101 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,639 best stories in Hollywood are actually stealing from the Bible's 102 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:45,160 storylines because those are the stories that resonate most with 103 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,120 the human heart, because I think they ultimately reflect the 104 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,720 Biblical story of heroes and underdogs and against all odds 105 00:05:52,759 --> 00:05:56,600 when all hope seems lost, life comes back from death, 106 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,720 beauty from ashes kind of a thing. But for me, 107 00:06:01,639 --> 00:06:05,639 I thought being an actor was cool. Hollywood is often 108 00:06:06,199 --> 00:06:13,720 pitted against faith and goodness and moral virtue, but I 109 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,839 don't think it has to be. In fact, I think 110 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,800 filmmaking and television and the arts and creativity has been 111 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:28,639 democratized through technology and a breakup of the big studios, 112 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,399 and now anybody with a camera can make their own 113 00:06:31,439 --> 00:06:35,360 documentary or film anywhere in the world and get it 114 00:06:35,879 --> 00:06:41,040 distributed on YouTube. So while I may have left Hollywood 115 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:46,040 proper in southern California, I now live in Tennessee. I'm 116 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,720 still part of an industry of creatives who is trying 117 00:06:50,759 --> 00:06:54,160 to turn out truth and goodness and beauty in the 118 00:06:54,199 --> 00:06:58,639 form of stories and creative projects that are going to 119 00:06:58,639 --> 00:07:01,079 bring a little bit more of than to earth and 120 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:02,959 shape young people's worldview. 121 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: So did I leave Hollywood kind of what kind of 122 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:08,879 not right? Right? 123 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: And we saw, of course a lot of that with 124 00:07:10,639 --> 00:07:13,480 your work with Ray Comfort, which I know was very influential. 125 00:07:14,079 --> 00:07:16,319 We used to watch your videos with him in school 126 00:07:16,399 --> 00:07:18,120 and it really made us think about a lot of 127 00:07:18,879 --> 00:07:21,439 questions about the nature of good and evil and and 128 00:07:22,199 --> 00:07:25,279 you know what the what the eternal gamble kind of 129 00:07:25,279 --> 00:07:27,959 looks like. So those were very influential for me, I 130 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:33,680 know as well. So you have six children, several several 131 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,240 of them you welcome through adoption. I know. Can you 132 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,879 just tell me what was it like becoming a dad 133 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,160 and what are what do you think are the biggest 134 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:50,360 things you've learned through fatherhood. M Well, it's a big question, 135 00:07:50,399 --> 00:07:50,600 I know. 136 00:07:50,759 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: You know. 137 00:07:51,519 --> 00:07:54,279 Speaker 3: So my wife Chelsea and I we met on the 138 00:07:54,279 --> 00:07:56,160 set of Growing Pains. We were a boyfriend and girlfriend 139 00:07:56,199 --> 00:07:58,600 on the show. We've now been married for thirty five years. 140 00:07:59,279 --> 00:08:03,079 We have raised six children. You're right, some of them 141 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,680 are adopted. We can't remember which ones. They're all ours. 142 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,959 We kind of great they adopted us and now they're 143 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,800 grown and they've moved out and they're starting their own families. 144 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,959 Speaker 2: And we have a granddaughter. So I would say that 145 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:19,000 I've learned that. 146 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:25,839 Speaker 3: Marriage and family is ground zero for advancing the good 147 00:08:26,199 --> 00:08:29,720 in the world. And I think we can look to 148 00:08:29,879 --> 00:08:32,320 scripture and see that in the very beginning, God didn't 149 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,440 create the federal government. Right in the very beginning, God. 150 00:08:36,279 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: Created a man and a woman and told them to 151 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:41,399 be fruitful and multiply. And I. 152 00:08:42,879 --> 00:08:45,279 Speaker 3: Think that, you know, we are the way we are 153 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:51,000 so that we can raise generations of children and through 154 00:08:51,039 --> 00:08:55,960 the family, download heaven and distribute. 155 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 2: It to earth. 156 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 3: And so what I've learned as a as a man. 157 00:09:00,919 --> 00:09:04,039 Is that being a husband and being a father. If 158 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,240 God and his goodness and his providence allows us to 159 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,080 fill those roles as husbands and wives, mothers and fathers, 160 00:09:12,039 --> 00:09:14,960 whether it's adoption or natural birth or whatever, it's a 161 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,360 great privilege and it's a sacred duty. And so I 162 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,919 want to make the most of every opportunity. You know, 163 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,799 family's tricky, family's difficult. It's also a school where you 164 00:09:25,879 --> 00:09:28,120 have to learn how to die to yourself. You know, 165 00:09:28,159 --> 00:09:30,320 if you don't learn how to forgive and how to 166 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:35,519 be selfless, your marriage probably won't survive. And if you don't, 167 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:37,919 you know, if you're not driven to your knees by 168 00:09:37,919 --> 00:09:40,600 the end of the day as a parent, broken and 169 00:09:40,639 --> 00:09:42,519 in prayer, you're probably not doing it right. 170 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: Because it's difficult, but it's wonderful. It's the best thing 171 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:47,159 in the whole world. 172 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 3: And I think that's how God is advancing his kingdom 173 00:09:50,039 --> 00:09:54,159 here on earth is primarily through the instrument of the family. 174 00:09:55,279 --> 00:09:57,279 Speaker 1: Well, and of course we know of the importance of 175 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,679 family from scripture, like it's very much a part of 176 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,799 our ca worldview. But even if you're not a Christian, 177 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:04,879 you can see that this is just self evidently true. 178 00:10:04,919 --> 00:10:07,759 I mean, Brad Wilcox at the Institute for Family Studies 179 00:10:07,759 --> 00:10:10,519 and many others have documented the phenomenon of even the 180 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,879 happiness among adults who are married with children versus those 181 00:10:13,879 --> 00:10:18,720 who are not. There's just this component of self giving 182 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,759 that is clearly what we were designed for. Even if 183 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,559 you fight that within your own life like it's it's 184 00:10:25,759 --> 00:10:29,960 so obvious in the world around us. What you identities. 185 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 3: Jumping real quick if you're hoping to find I just 186 00:10:32,919 --> 00:10:34,240 want to say that there are people out there who 187 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:35,919 would love to have children, who would love to meet 188 00:10:35,919 --> 00:10:37,919 their person and get married, and have just not had 189 00:10:37,919 --> 00:10:41,519 that opportunity, right, And God bless you. God has very 190 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,720 unique purposes and plans, I believe for every. 191 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: Single one of us. Jesus was not married. 192 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,279 Speaker 3: Jesus did not have children, and yet he was the 193 00:10:50,799 --> 00:10:53,440 person who impacted the world. 194 00:10:53,279 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: Like no one else ever. And so there are exceptions 195 00:10:58,320 --> 00:10:59,360 and there are rules. 196 00:10:59,639 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 3: But I think our culture has downgraded marriage and family 197 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:09,159 and children so much, and and and we do that 198 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,919 at our own peril, and and so I just want 199 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,200 to say that that God knows exactly what he's doing, 200 00:11:15,279 --> 00:11:16,720 and He's got you exactly where he wants you. 201 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. Amen, Well, this is just a shameless plug for 202 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,279 our listeners and viewers to go back and watch the 203 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:25,200 recent interview that I did with Leif Fitzpatrick Snead. She 204 00:11:25,279 --> 00:11:28,639 wrote a book recently called Infertile But Fruitful, and she 205 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,440 tells the story of her and her husband's infertility journey. 206 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,000 And at the end of that journey she never did 207 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,600 get a pregnancy, but they did become parents through adoption. 208 00:11:37,919 --> 00:11:40,840 But through every part of her story, even before they 209 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,279 had children, is still fruitfulness. And it's just so evident 210 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,200 in every part of her life and in her marriage, 211 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,080 and and even if she were not married, God has 212 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,440 fruitful plans for people who are not yet or will 213 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,679 never be even fruitful if they desire it. 214 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,279 Speaker 2: Absolutely, we could go on and on. 215 00:11:59,399 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 3: Right the Apostible Paul had said as much that there 216 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,080 are different concerns and responsibilities and cares that you have 217 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,039 when you're married that you don't have when you're single. 218 00:12:10,519 --> 00:12:12,960 And I believe frees you up to be able to 219 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,039 do things that married people and family. 220 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,759 Speaker 2: Folks just would not be doing because they have other 221 00:12:18,799 --> 00:12:21,200 responsibilities and and and and we need all. 222 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: Of us mhm. Exactly. Let's let's go back to left 223 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,039 Behind for a minute. I'd love to just know, and 224 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,960 this is another big question, but I love to know 225 00:12:32,039 --> 00:12:36,679 how your personal eschatological views have changed since your left 226 00:12:36,759 --> 00:12:37,679 Behind days. 227 00:12:38,799 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 2: Here we go, you know, you know, I just I just. 228 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,159 Speaker 3: I'm just getting over the scorching after talking about the 229 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,919 subject of hell, and you want to get into eschatology. 230 00:12:50,039 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: Oh, we're going to get to hell next, So buckle up. 231 00:12:52,279 --> 00:12:53,320 I'm warming you up. 232 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:59,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, warming me up for a hell. No, let's see. 233 00:12:59,799 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 3: So eschatology is another one of those fascinating topics that 234 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:05,559 that that I don't have. 235 00:13:05,759 --> 00:13:07,519 Speaker 2: I don't I don't have it all figured out yet, 236 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:09,600 But what I do find. 237 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:11,759 Speaker 1: We won't Who does you know? We we haven't gotten 238 00:13:11,759 --> 00:13:13,039 there so well. 239 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,879 Speaker 3: I some of our friends have. I think Vodi Bacham 240 00:13:15,919 --> 00:13:20,080 and John MacArthur. They finally they know the deal because 241 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,120 they've gone on to be with the Lord yes and 242 00:13:22,279 --> 00:13:24,440 uh and and and when they find out that they've 243 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,919 disagreed with each other on so many things, and and 244 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:31,039 they find out the truth from Jesus himself, that's got 245 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,200 to be a shock. So I don't think that that 246 00:13:34,279 --> 00:13:38,480 we can know everything, because there's there's there's mystery there 247 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,200 that I think is we need to hold on to 248 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,639 as mystery. But eschatology is another one of those fascinating topics. 249 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,240 I never thought there was another position beside premillennial dispensationalism 250 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,320 left behind. You know, in simple terms that everybody's gonna 251 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,159 vanish and Christians are going to disappear, and planes, trains 252 00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:56,559 and automobiles are going to be crashing with clothes left 253 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,519 on the floor, just like you saw in the movies 254 00:13:58,600 --> 00:13:59,240 or read in the book. 255 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:01,799 Speaker 2: But you discover, oh. 256 00:14:01,639 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 3: Wow, there's a whole different position called amillennialism. There is 257 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:10,120 classic premillennialism, and then there's dispensationalism. There's also post millennialism. 258 00:14:10,159 --> 00:14:13,960 There's partial preadism, there's full preterism. There's all sorts of 259 00:14:14,039 --> 00:14:19,120 positions about the tribulation, pre trib midtrim, post trip, pre wrap. 260 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,159 There's all these things, and you think, wow, how could 261 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,120 this be so confusing? And this is all within the church. 262 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,559 This isn't even like the atheist position that says it's 263 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,399 all a fairy tale. So I find it fascinating. I 264 00:14:33,399 --> 00:14:36,519 love these in house conversations. What I don't like is 265 00:14:36,559 --> 00:14:42,480 when people start to divide and call one another, heretics 266 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,600 over topics like, you know, what is the nature of 267 00:14:47,639 --> 00:14:48,399 the Second Coming? 268 00:14:48,399 --> 00:14:50,279 Speaker 2: And what is the timing of the second Coming? And 269 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:51,759 how does that relate to. 270 00:14:53,759 --> 00:14:56,039 Speaker 3: Different aspects of people who have died before us and 271 00:14:56,559 --> 00:14:59,720 people who will die in the future. I think scripture 272 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:01,440 gives a a lot of clues, but there is still 273 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:02,360 some mystery there. 274 00:15:02,679 --> 00:15:05,679 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm hmmm. Uh yeah, absolutely, And how much we 275 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,200 miss out on when we focus when we major on 276 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,440 the miners. Not that not that it doesn't matter, because 277 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,679 of course the end times do very much matter. But again, 278 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,559 until we are part of the cloud of witnesses, we 279 00:15:17,639 --> 00:15:20,279 will not know for sure. So yeah, we need to 280 00:15:20,279 --> 00:15:24,080 to major on the majors, I guess. But is it weird? 281 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:25,559 Speaker 2: How is that for a how is that for a 282 00:15:25,639 --> 00:15:26,200 non answer? 283 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,799 Speaker 1: Yeah? I noticed that you skirted around that just just 284 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:29,480 a little bit. 285 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,799 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll let the I'll let the I'll let the 286 00:15:34,879 --> 00:15:38,039 deer out of out of out of the woods just 287 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,279 a little bit instead of the cow the cat out 288 00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:41,639 of the bag. 289 00:15:42,159 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: This is a first on the podcast, by the way. 290 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,159 Speaker 3: I can't I can tell you that the more that 291 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:52,600 I've studied church history, the more that I've studied the scriptures. I'm, I'm, 292 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:55,720 I'm it's pretty safe to say that I've left behind 293 00:15:55,919 --> 00:15:56,600 left behind. 294 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: Sure, that's a that's a good answer. That's a better 295 00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:03,480 answer than your first one. Yeah. Well, and I think, 296 00:16:03,679 --> 00:16:06,080 of course, you know, there are things that matter so 297 00:16:06,159 --> 00:16:09,320 much more than our views on eschatology. But I do 298 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,919 think there are flare ups of this that that bring 299 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,600 it into a little bit of sharper sharper focus. For instance, 300 00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:17,840 you know, like when we consider our foreign policy toward 301 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:19,759 Israel and when that is shaped by our views of 302 00:16:19,799 --> 00:16:22,440 dispensationalism or not, or you know, things like that where 303 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,320 it isn't just it is just a cerebral conversation, it 304 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,840 is something that actually bleeds into how we live and 305 00:16:30,879 --> 00:16:34,080 how we craft policy, and how we how we yeah, 306 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,240 how we conduct ourselves in the public square and in private. 307 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,440 So so for those reasons, I do think, you know, 308 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,639 there is a level of importance that's worth talking about. 309 00:16:41,159 --> 00:16:42,399 Speaker 2: Oh, I think you're so right. 310 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,399 Speaker 3: And to be honest, I never even connected the dots 311 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:51,600 and saw the implications of our view about end times 312 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:53,399 because it's a it's a book, it's a movie, it's 313 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,639 a fiction book, right, And we say, well, that's really 314 00:16:55,679 --> 00:16:57,799 going to happen, because that's what the Bible says. But 315 00:16:58,279 --> 00:17:02,279 that really informs our view of Israel, and Israel is 316 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,119 all in the news. Israel is you know, is involved 317 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:09,759 in wars, and the United States politically is tied in 318 00:17:09,799 --> 00:17:13,920 and militarily and financially, and so you go, wow, could 319 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,640 this actually result in. 320 00:17:18,759 --> 00:17:22,559 Speaker 2: People going to war? The left behind movies or not? 321 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 3: And it's very interesting if you really do a deep 322 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:27,039 dive into it. 323 00:17:27,039 --> 00:17:30,599 Speaker 2: It's not conspiracy to you know, to foil hat stuff. 324 00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 3: This is like real and it really does impact foreign policy. 325 00:17:36,519 --> 00:17:39,799 And we've got to think through these things. 326 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 5: What it means to be a conservative used to be clear, 327 00:17:47,559 --> 00:17:52,279 tax cuts, free markets, Christian family values, and supporting democracies 328 00:17:52,319 --> 00:17:56,400 around the world. It's not true anymore, as anyone following 329 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:01,599 politics sees every day. That's where the new podcast Conservative 330 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,400 Crossroads with Henry Olsen, Senior Fellow at the Ethics and 331 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,240 Public Policy Center, comes in and doesn't shy away from 332 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,839 these disputes. It leans into them by putting two conservatives 333 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,960 who disagree about an important issue together to hash it 334 00:18:17,039 --> 00:18:21,480 out on the air. Every other week. Conservative Crossroads does 335 00:18:21,559 --> 00:18:27,799 what no other program does explore conservatisms disagreements without name calling. 336 00:18:28,519 --> 00:18:32,359 Conservative Crossroads is the podcast for conservatives who want to 337 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:37,519 understand what's happening to their movement. Join Henry Olsen and 338 00:18:37,599 --> 00:18:41,480 his guest at Conservative Crossroads every other Monday as they 339 00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:45,119 hash out the ideas and principles that will decide the 340 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,960 future of the right. Download Conservative Crossroads from our partner 341 00:18:49,039 --> 00:18:53,920 Ricochet or any platform where you get your podcast. Conservativism 342 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,720 is at a crossroads, which is why all conservatives need 343 00:18:57,799 --> 00:19:00,880 Conservative Crossroads today. 344 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: Right right well, and just being sure to be careful 345 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,079 about recognizing our calling as Christians, are our great commission 346 00:19:12,079 --> 00:19:14,799 as Christians to go and make disciples, to preach the gospel, 347 00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:18,000 to evangelize, and not to look at the end times 348 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,000 as we need to usher in this final judgment, because 349 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,359 that is not our role, that is not our job. 350 00:19:24,799 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 3: Yes, I agree, you know, I'm not looking for judgment. 351 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 2: I'm not looking for war. 352 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,799 Speaker 3: I'm looking for revival and an opportunity to share the 353 00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:38,440 Gospel with the lost, and we want there's a whole 354 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:45,160 I believe there's millions of people out there who are. 355 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 2: Just waiting to hear the gospel of their salvation. 356 00:19:45,839 --> 00:19:49,759 Speaker 3: And so we should preach it to them. 357 00:19:49,799 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 1: Yes, So would you say, I know we're still skirting 358 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,119 a little bit, but would you say that your view 359 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,640 is that things are generally getting better or getting worse? Like, 360 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,279 do you do you lean towards post millennialism or not? 361 00:20:03,079 --> 00:20:07,319 Speaker 3: Well, what I would say is that your view on 362 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,279 the future, and specifically whether it's getting better or worse, 363 00:20:12,079 --> 00:20:14,000 has to be framed with. 364 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 2: Some time markers in place. 365 00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 3: If you were to go back a thousand years and 366 00:20:21,519 --> 00:20:24,599 you said, are things getting better or worse, well, you 367 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,319 could say, wow, things are getting worse. I mean we're 368 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,039 at an age where kings and queens are killing Christians 369 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,799 and it looks like it's the end. And then you 370 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:39,519 find out, oh wait a minute, a Reformation is coming 371 00:20:39,599 --> 00:20:42,440 and a revival and a great awakening is coming. But 372 00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:45,839 you couldn't see that then, And so here we are today, 373 00:20:46,599 --> 00:20:49,680 where things are much much better, I believe, than living 374 00:20:49,839 --> 00:20:53,799 a thousand years ago or fifteen hundred years ago. I mean, 375 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,960 we don't have Christians being thrown to lions in a 376 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,920 colosseum or lit on fire and raised up to illuminate 377 00:21:01,039 --> 00:21:04,480 nighttime entertainment like they did during the Roman Empire. So 378 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,480 things are much better today. We have sermons and churches 379 00:21:07,599 --> 00:21:10,880 and books everywhere proclaiming the Gospel around the world. Healthcare 380 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,920 is better, a quality of life is better, people are 381 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,839 living longer, all of this kind of stuff. But we're 382 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,359 consumed with this idea that because in the nineteen fifties 383 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,079 we had to leave it to beaver or our grandparents 384 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,599 didn't have to deal with, you know, purple haired, nos 385 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,200 ringed women who think that they're men, you know, built 386 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:33,599 like linebackers. That things are just getting worse and it 387 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,599 must mean that the anti Christ is coming and the 388 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,279 rapture will be here by Tuesday. We hold on like, 389 00:21:40,519 --> 00:21:45,599 go back to the Roman Empire, go back to the 390 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,079 time where you know you would get thrown in prison 391 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,000 and drowned or beheaded for being a Christian, much worse 392 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:58,920 in my opinion. And so I'm all for long term. 393 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,240 I don't know how much time we have on this earth, 394 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,359 and so I just want to be focused on God's 395 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,119 faithfulness and the opportunity that I have to preach the 396 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,160 Gospel with revival and a great awakening in view. It's 397 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,000 happened before, at the worst times that you could possibly imagine, 398 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,839 and I think that is the tea up for better 399 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,440 days ahead, and so I want to be at the 400 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:23,759 heart of that kind of a revival. 401 00:22:24,839 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 1: I do think we got a taste of that a 402 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:28,920 little bit at the end of last year with the 403 00:22:29,039 --> 00:22:30,920 martyrdom of Charlie Kirk. And you know, of course, we 404 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,960 know martyrs are the seeds of the church, and we 405 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,880 saw that, I mean, attendance skyrocketing, and of course not 406 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,839 all of that is sustained, but there are still these 407 00:22:38,839 --> 00:22:43,519 moments of revival even amid you know, our modern day 408 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,599 versions of so many of these things. You know, we're 409 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,359 not chucking babies into the nile anymore or sacrificing them, 410 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,160 you know, to the God, to to like right, what 411 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,599 am I looking for? To idols, to images, but we 412 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,920 sacrifice them to the God of self. And we you know, 413 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,160 we still we still, we still do the same things. 414 00:23:02,319 --> 00:23:04,319 History is just it goes around the same cul de 415 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,319 sac and so it looks different. But you know, even today, 416 00:23:07,319 --> 00:23:09,920 you know, talking about like the persecution of Christians, we 417 00:23:10,039 --> 00:23:12,880 can comfortably say that we are, you know, not experiencing 418 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,319 these beheadings and whatnot, but you know, our brothers and 419 00:23:15,319 --> 00:23:18,559 sisters in Nigeria are, and so you know, it just 420 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:21,400 it depends. Of course, it's all shaped by your perspective. 421 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,319 And there were so many times throughout history where people 422 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:25,839 thought this was the end, this is the end, and 423 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,519 it wasn't, and so it's just but I do think 424 00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:33,319 it is healthy. It's healthier not in like a conspiratorial 425 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:34,920 way or you know, looking at the calendar like, oh, 426 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,559 I think we're gonna predict that it's on this day, 427 00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:40,759 but to look toward the coming of Christ with the 428 00:23:40,839 --> 00:23:44,359 expectation that it will happen during your lifetime, rather than 429 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,599 thinking that, oh no, this is just we're still just 430 00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:49,720 you know, going around the same cycle like it wasn't 431 00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:51,480 then it's probably not going to be now, because we 432 00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:55,279 should be looking toward that with anticipation and expectation. Correct. 433 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, but again I don't have a crystal ball. And 434 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,160 so many people who really major on this they want 435 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,839 to take versus from scripture that were written in you know, 436 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,759 that first century, and many of these things were events 437 00:24:13,759 --> 00:24:16,799 that took place in the first century. These were things 438 00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:19,119 that they could look they could literally look forward to 439 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:20,920 seeing in their lifetime. And then there are other things 440 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,000 that are I think rightly understood to be far into 441 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,839 the future, and so we've got to wrestle with these things. 442 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,160 That's why I like having roundtable discussions. That's why I 443 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,359 like having conversations like this is so that we can 444 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,799 explore different ideas and understand that we're not the first 445 00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:37,119 person who ever thought about these things. We've got thousands 446 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,759 of years of history of people debating these things with 447 00:24:39,839 --> 00:24:43,880 brilliant minds far smarter than I am, and I can 448 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,559 learn from them. What I do know is that I've 449 00:24:47,559 --> 00:24:49,920 got today. I want to make the most of the opportunity. 450 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,119 I want to preach the gospel. God's got the future 451 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,960 in his hands, and I don't know how much I'm 452 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,599 supposed to know. I should find it fascinating. I like 453 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,480 to talk about it, but I want to live with 454 00:25:01,519 --> 00:25:05,400 a sense of urgency and anticipation and make the most 455 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:06,240 of the days that I have. 456 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, And I think we're saying the same thing there, 457 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,359 that it's just the urgency and anticipation by just expecting 458 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,079 that the Lord has said that he will do this, 459 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,240 that means that he will do this. So no matter 460 00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:21,119 whether it's twenty four hours or twenty four thousand more years, 461 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,039 I mean, it truly doesn't matter. Because our mission is unchanged. 462 00:25:24,079 --> 00:25:31,200 It's the same. Yeah. So, speaking of tossing ideas around 463 00:25:31,279 --> 00:25:35,920 and discussing things like this, let's circle back to the 464 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,440 hell conversation because I know that this has gotten you 465 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,000 into some hot water recently, and I'm just I'm loving 466 00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:45,720 bringing up stuff that is just difficult, difficult and not 467 00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:47,759 fun to talk about. So let's talk about Hellgate for 468 00:25:47,799 --> 00:25:51,640 just a few minutes. Can you just first explain what 469 00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:55,599 it is for people who did not see the initial 470 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,079 clips or the initial full podcast that you posted with 471 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,359 your son, who have no idea what I'm talking about, Like, 472 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,759 what exactly happened that got you into some hotwater? 473 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: So this year I lost a show we called The 474 00:26:06,519 --> 00:26:07,200 Kirk Cameron Show. 475 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,839 Speaker 3: It's not really original, but in it, my son and 476 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,359 I have these dangerous conversations and I tell him, James, 477 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:16,880 you can ask me anything you want. I'll be honest 478 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,160 with you. And sometimes he gets me into trouble, and 479 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,559 he certainly did this time. He asked me, Dad, what 480 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,920 actually happens in hell? When someone dies? Are they tormented 481 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,480 forever consciously in the presence of God, forever and ever 482 00:26:29,519 --> 00:26:34,039 and ever? Or are they annihilated? And are they snuffed 483 00:26:34,079 --> 00:26:37,119 out like a candle wick when you snuff out the flame. 484 00:26:37,839 --> 00:26:40,759 And he was talking about this because he has some 485 00:26:40,799 --> 00:26:43,599 friends who were really wrestling. 486 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 2: With this, trying to understand how. 487 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 3: Eternal conscious torment can coincide with a loving and merciful God, 488 00:26:53,559 --> 00:26:58,480 and would ask certain questions like how can a finite 489 00:26:58,599 --> 00:27:03,519 amount of sin be justly punished with an infinite amount 490 00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:06,359 of torment? Like after a billion years, you're not one 491 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,799 second closer to it being over. And he talked about 492 00:27:09,839 --> 00:27:14,160 some historical positions held within the church called conditional immortality 493 00:27:14,319 --> 00:27:18,920 or annihilationism. And we had this conversation and I ended 494 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,200 up catching hell for it, pardon the pun. 495 00:27:21,799 --> 00:27:23,559 Speaker 2: A lot of fiery discussion from. 496 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 3: Church leaders and YouTubers saying that I was a heretic, 497 00:27:27,759 --> 00:27:31,079 others saying, no, this isn't heresy, it's history. Martin Luther 498 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,799 talked about these things. Early church fathers talked about these things. 499 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,960 One of my favorite apologists today, Wes Huff, said, you 500 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,880 know what, most people have never even engaged with the 501 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:46,079 material on the conditional immortality side. And so I decided, 502 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,440 instead of just being offended by my own brothers calling 503 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,880 me a heretic, I thought, well, let's do a deep 504 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,480 dive and have a roundtable discussion. John Piper did this 505 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,720 years ago on the subject of eschatology and it was 506 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,079 a pre millennial, a millennial and post millennial perspective in 507 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:06,680 a roundtable, and I thought, well, let's do. 508 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:07,319 Speaker 2: This with Hell. 509 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 3: I called it Hellgate because many people are scandalized by 510 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,880 the topic of Hell, and it's out now people can 511 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,480 watch it. It's a two and a half hour deep 512 00:28:16,559 --> 00:28:19,480 dive on what the Bible really says about Hell because 513 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,400 it matters to God and it matters to the people 514 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:22,079 that we love. 515 00:28:23,759 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: Well, and it really is a helpful watch. I would 516 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,240 encourage all of our listeners and followers to go and 517 00:28:29,279 --> 00:28:33,440 watch it because it really stealmanned both of the positions. 518 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,039 You really get straight from you know, straight from the 519 00:28:36,079 --> 00:28:38,759 horse's mouth. What do people who believe in this position think? 520 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,039 And versus the other side, and using scripture to defend 521 00:28:42,119 --> 00:28:45,000 to defend both positions. It's two and a half hours, 522 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,799 but you can bump up the speed a little bit 523 00:28:46,839 --> 00:28:51,640 and watch it fairly quickly. It's really really excellent. So 524 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,880 I mean, first of all, it goes without saying that 525 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,839 this is just another example of the stupidity of the 526 00:28:56,839 --> 00:28:59,920 internet to clip things and take them out of context 527 00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:05,880 for views and clicks, and just the unhelpfulness, especially among believers, 528 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,200 to do this to each other like that. That's so divisive. 529 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,960 It's not helpful. It does nothing good for the church. 530 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,079 It does nothing good for advancing the gospel. I mean, 531 00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:15,880 like you can you can watch the entirety of the 532 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,519 podcast and walk away saying, I don't know, I don't 533 00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:21,359 think that's right, but to post a clip of it 534 00:29:21,519 --> 00:29:24,400 and then that fuel your outrage. Don't don't fall for 535 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,519 the rage bait people. This is not this is not helpful, 536 00:29:26,599 --> 00:29:27,839 especially within the body of Christ. 537 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,519 Speaker 2: That's so true. And that was my one of my 538 00:29:30,519 --> 00:29:31,440 biggest surprises. 539 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 3: Not only that people had such strong feelings about it, 540 00:29:36,039 --> 00:29:39,000 but I didn't expect the cancel culture and the SmackDown 541 00:29:39,039 --> 00:29:43,599 and the insults to come from the church. I expected 542 00:29:43,599 --> 00:29:47,920 it from the progressive left, the atheists. But to have 543 00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:52,519 leaders within the church call me a heretic, I thought 544 00:29:52,599 --> 00:29:54,640 to myself, Wow, this is crazy. 545 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 2: I mean, you're call you would be calling Martin Luther 546 00:29:56,759 --> 00:29:57,160 a heretic. 547 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,319 Speaker 3: You'd be calling some of the church Father's heretics, and 548 00:29:59,319 --> 00:30:01,880 and perhaps some of them were, But this is certainly 549 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,839 something that's within the pale of Christian biblical thought, and 550 00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:09,720 most people just don't understand it or even know why 551 00:30:09,759 --> 00:30:12,599 they hold the position that they hold. That's why I 552 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,279 made Hellgate, so that we could get four scholars from 553 00:30:15,319 --> 00:30:18,160 around the world, the best and the brightest, to talk 554 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,680 about this respectfully with intellectual hospitality, using Scripture as our 555 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,279 north star, not our own intuition, not our traditions, as 556 00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:30,359 important as those are. We've ultimately got to come down 557 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:31,799 to what does the Bible really. 558 00:30:31,599 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: Say right well, and it's another case of majoring on 559 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,960 the miners, like we talked about before. I do not 560 00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:39,000 think that this is a first order issue. It does 561 00:30:39,039 --> 00:30:43,039 not affect our Christian witness. It does not affect it 562 00:30:43,079 --> 00:30:45,279 doesn't have to affect unity within the Body of Christ. 563 00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:47,480 As long as you are applying the whole council of 564 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,119 Scripture to it, it does not you know, changing your 565 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,039 view on the doctrine of hell does not inherently cause 566 00:30:53,079 --> 00:30:55,319 you to undermine other doctrines. I think, you know, we 567 00:30:55,359 --> 00:30:58,880 need to be careful that the way that we're approaching scripture, 568 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:00,759 the way that we are, you know, the way that 569 00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:04,000 our exegesis and hermoneutics go that we're not bringing too 570 00:31:04,039 --> 00:31:05,759 much of our feeling and that that you know that 571 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,119 that can be a slippery slope, but it's not inherently so. 572 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 3: And Kylie, can I can I can I double click 573 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,359 on something you just said. You were saying, this is 574 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,559 not a primary issue for Christians, we don't need to 575 00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:19,279 divide over it. 576 00:31:19,359 --> 00:31:24,839 Speaker 2: But here's the thing. Remember, for my neighbor, it often 577 00:31:25,039 --> 00:31:26,200 is the primary thing. 578 00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 3: It is the hurdle he can't get over. I mean, 579 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,079 I can give you evidence for the resurrection of Jesus 580 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,039 Christ that is pretty stink and compelling. It You've still 581 00:31:37,039 --> 00:31:41,599 got to exercise faith. But evidence for an intelligent designer, 582 00:31:42,039 --> 00:31:44,720 for the credibility of the Bible as a historical document 583 00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:48,000 is not that difficult. But for my neighbor, what is 584 00:31:48,079 --> 00:31:53,640 often the mount everest he cannot climb is the idea 585 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,359 of a God who appears to him to be the 586 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,039 moral monster that torments people for ever and ever in hell. 587 00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:06,920 And so we have to, as believers, say we can't 588 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,599 just sideline this and say, oh, it's a secondary issue. 589 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 2: I understand what we. 590 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 3: Mean by that, But for my neighbor, it's a primary issue. 591 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,480 And maybe the obstacle that's preventing him from embracing the gospel. 592 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,359 We don't want to soft sell anything. We don't want 593 00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:24,920 to mute scripture. We want to be able to have 594 00:32:25,039 --> 00:32:29,319 dangerous conversations so that we may be able to say 595 00:32:29,319 --> 00:32:32,759 to him, there are other perspectives that have been held 596 00:32:32,799 --> 00:32:38,200 throughout the church and the thing that you are terrified of, Well, 597 00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:41,519 let me tell you another perspective that I personally find 598 00:32:41,599 --> 00:32:46,079 compelling and scriptural that may open the door for you 599 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,599 to walk through and allow God to answer some of 600 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:51,920 these questions pretty differently. 601 00:32:56,359 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 6: How many people's health insurances cost more than the mortgage? 602 00:33:01,079 --> 00:33:03,880 The watch dot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. 603 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,759 Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and 604 00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:09,480 the economy and how it affects your wallet. Some Americans 605 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,000 are paying more for the health insurance than their mortgage 606 00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:14,519 and what happened? What if we all just stopped paying 607 00:33:14,519 --> 00:33:17,599 for health insurance? Will that force doctors to lower costs? 608 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,799 Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, 609 00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:21,000 it's affecting you financially. 610 00:33:21,079 --> 00:33:21,599 Speaker 2: Be informed. 611 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,519 Speaker 6: Check out the Watch Dood on Wall Street podcast with 612 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,880 Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 613 00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:33,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's push let's push on that even just 614 00:33:33,319 --> 00:33:35,519 a little bit more, because I don't disagree that it 615 00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:38,240 is that it could be a primary issue for someone. 616 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,799 You know, somebody might have no problem believing in the resurrection, 617 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,079 but they can't believe in a God who would send 618 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,799 you know, quote unquote good people to health, for instance. 619 00:33:48,039 --> 00:33:51,240 But I do worry because hell is not the only 620 00:33:51,319 --> 00:33:53,240 place where people can get hung up on this and 621 00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:56,400 turn something. You know, that it can be the primary 622 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,119 stumbling block to keep them from coming to faith. And 623 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,559 I mean, they're there are others that come to mind. 624 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,000 One of them is, you know, I have friends who 625 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,519 identify as LGBT or whatnot, and and I mean this 626 00:34:09,559 --> 00:34:12,119 is one example among many. Anything could be the primary 627 00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:15,079 thing that that keeps you from coming to faith. And 628 00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:20,000 I and you know they their contention or maybe what 629 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,199 would keep them from coming to Christ is what would 630 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:27,039 God really prevent me from living, you know, a monogamous 631 00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:29,480 you know, devoted life with the person that I love whatever. 632 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,119 And you know, I think, of course we can run 633 00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:35,400 the risk. And we've seen plenty of so called Christians, 634 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,760 you know, completely reneg on this. This portion of the 635 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,000 faith of well, no, this is actually you know you 636 00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:42,880 have a firm in churches now, which is which is 637 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,320 the danger there? And I just I what I fear 638 00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:49,360 is not putting yourselves in the shoes of an unbeliever 639 00:34:49,519 --> 00:34:51,800 to evangelize to them and thinking through you know, what 640 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,679 is stopping them up? How can we help them overcome 641 00:34:54,719 --> 00:35:00,400 these hurdles, but using that as a starting point to 642 00:35:01,119 --> 00:35:05,199 how we exposit scripture as like, you know, if that 643 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,519 is inhibiting us from our evangelism, we know that the 644 00:35:08,559 --> 00:35:11,480 gospel is foolishness and offensive to people who are perishing. 645 00:35:11,519 --> 00:35:15,719 So how do we how do we you know, merge 646 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,079 these two things where we we don't falter in our 647 00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:22,800 witness by presenting a view of hell that is that is, 648 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,960 there are no other positions on this whatever, but also 649 00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:28,280 recognizing that you know, God has to do the work 650 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,320 of bringing people to himself, of removing our hearts of 651 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,599 stone replacing them with hearts of flesh. We can't do 652 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,400 that by coming to scripture with this concern that people 653 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,000 are not going to find the gospel palatable because of Hell. 654 00:35:41,119 --> 00:35:41,880 Does that make sense? 655 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:44,519 Speaker 2: Yes? 656 00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 3: Uh? If we've said a lot right here, could you 657 00:35:50,559 --> 00:35:53,039 just condense that down to a simple question, and I'll 658 00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:53,960 do my best to answer it. 659 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,639 Speaker 1: Yeah. Sorry, I'm very worried today. 660 00:35:56,679 --> 00:35:57,760 Speaker 2: I hear you. 661 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 3: It's it's not it's not easy to stream line all 662 00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:01,199 of these thoughts. 663 00:36:03,079 --> 00:36:07,639 Speaker 1: My fear is that our personal discomfort with Hell, because 664 00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:10,280 it is uncomfortable, no matter what your view of it is, 665 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,519 our personal discomfort with Hell or the discomfort with Hell, 666 00:36:14,599 --> 00:36:17,599 that the unbelievers in our lives feel, that that will 667 00:36:17,639 --> 00:36:21,480 affect our exegesis of scripture. And how do we prevent that? 668 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 2: Yeah? 669 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:30,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that would be a terrible idea to begin 670 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,559 to try to make scripture accommodate our preferences. Right If 671 00:36:35,599 --> 00:36:40,119 my neighbor came out and said, you know, I just 672 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,280 don't want to believe that Jesus is the only way 673 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,039 to heaven. I'm not going to try to twist scripture 674 00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:48,840 to fit that view. I'm not going to avoid the topic. 675 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,599 But I do want to thoughtfully answer questions if I'm 676 00:36:53,639 --> 00:36:55,280 able to, and if I don't know the answer to 677 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,920 the question, I've got to be comfortable enough to say 678 00:36:58,119 --> 00:37:00,119 I don't know. And the reason I can say I 679 00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:02,159 don't know is because I'm not God. So I don't 680 00:37:02,159 --> 00:37:05,400 know everything, and I'm confident that God does know, and 681 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,679 he is able to give you. 682 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 2: Answers if you need them. 683 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 3: So we shouldn't be afraid of hell, We shouldn't be 684 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,519 afraid of same sex attraction, We shouldn't be afraid of 685 00:37:18,679 --> 00:37:25,880 concerns that people have because the truth is not vulnerable 686 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:32,559 to people's questions. The truth can stand up. We just 687 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,440 don't want to misrepresent the truth because we've held on 688 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,159 to traditions, or we have blind spots and have not 689 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,880 thought it through, and we're saying things about God, about Hell, 690 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:48,480 about marriage, about sexuality and identity that are a misrepresentation 691 00:37:48,559 --> 00:37:55,320 of scripture. So I would say lean in and ask people, 692 00:37:55,679 --> 00:37:58,280 what are you uncomfortable about with Christianity? What are the 693 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:03,199 most ridiculous positions that you detect within scripture? What are 694 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,360 the things that are stopping you from believing what I'm 695 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,559 telling you? And then I would say engage on those 696 00:38:09,559 --> 00:38:14,360 things because those are the roadblocks and there are good 697 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,159 answers to those questions and concerns. 698 00:38:16,599 --> 00:38:21,599 Speaker 1: M hm. So I know through your initial podcast with 699 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:26,679 your son is It James, you had expressed some of 700 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,519 your concerns with the traditional view of how the eternal 701 00:38:30,519 --> 00:38:33,920 conscious suffering, eternal conscious punishment, torment, whatever word you want 702 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,519 to use. I'm curious if you have any concerns with 703 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,960 the other view after you know more study and you know, 704 00:38:41,079 --> 00:38:43,280 are there any things that bug you or nag at you, 705 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:48,639 or don't don't quite sit right with the conditional immortality 706 00:38:49,039 --> 00:38:50,079 annihilationist view. 707 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 708 00:38:51,559 --> 00:38:54,039 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I would encourage people to watch 709 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,239 hellgate or do a study on it. I think I'm 710 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,639 going to try to get Ai to to give us 711 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,880 a summary that you could read in maybe ten minutes, 712 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,519 because two and a half hours is quite a bit, 713 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,440 so that you understand what conditional immortality is actually all about. 714 00:39:09,599 --> 00:39:13,599 With regard to questions or things that bug me. Listen, 715 00:39:14,159 --> 00:39:20,039 everything bothers me about Hell. I mean, this is sort 716 00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:23,719 of like the obvious thing Jesus said, if your eye 717 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,719 or your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut 718 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,679 it off, gauge it out, and be better to enter 719 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,199 heaven with without an eye, without an eye, without a foot, 720 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:32,559 without a hand, then to have. 721 00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 2: All of it and go to Hell. 722 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 3: This is a punishment that is eternal, do anything to 723 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,280 avoid it, and the solution is the Gospel. So that's 724 00:39:44,639 --> 00:39:48,679 that's where we all land with with Hellgate. With regard 725 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,039 to the positions, of course, the idea of somebody being 726 00:39:52,039 --> 00:39:54,719 in torment forever and ever, whether it's C. S. Lewis's 727 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,119 view of the of the sort of the twisting and 728 00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:01,400 disfiguring of your so as a human being kind of 729 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,880 like Smigele becoming Gollum over time, just rotting from within 730 00:40:06,159 --> 00:40:09,039 as we're separated from all things that are good, your 731 00:40:09,039 --> 00:40:13,400 own pride and selfishness destroying you, or whether it's you know, 732 00:40:13,639 --> 00:40:17,800 torment and flames like the Church has believed for many, many, many, 733 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:22,039 many hundreds of years, and physical bodies that feel those 734 00:40:22,119 --> 00:40:26,880 kinds of things. 735 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 2: That's super bothering. 736 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 3: But as two of the scholars pointed out, there appears 737 00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:35,280 to be a conscious experience in the punishment and. 738 00:40:35,639 --> 00:40:40,760 Speaker 2: That it is enduring. On the annihilationist side, they're saying, no, 739 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:41,960 this is figurative language. 740 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,800 Speaker 3: We're talking about the Book of Revelation in particular, where 741 00:40:46,159 --> 00:40:49,440 it's really ground zero for these things, with the lake 742 00:40:49,519 --> 00:40:53,719 of fire and smoke and torment day and night without rest, 743 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,000 rising forever and ever. 744 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:56,599 Speaker 2: That this is language. 745 00:40:57,079 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 3: There is also side by side with a woman who 746 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:06,079 is standing you know, over the moon, and she's clothed 747 00:41:06,119 --> 00:41:08,760 in the sun, and there's a big red dragon and 748 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,239 beasts and with horns and heads, and so this is 749 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:18,719 obviously symbolics figurative language, and what is it symbolizing? 750 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 2: And how does. 751 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 3: This relate to Jewish thought? You know, I find the 752 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:35,480 conditionalist perspective very very compelling, persuasive, thoughtful, and scriptural. But 753 00:41:35,559 --> 00:41:39,400 I also understand why I could be wrong, because most 754 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,679 all of my heroes hold the traditional view, And so 755 00:41:44,079 --> 00:41:47,480 I just have great respect for those who handle the 756 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:53,199 word of God and the human heart with carefulness and 757 00:41:53,199 --> 00:41:58,800 and and and great care and don't throw spears at 758 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:00,920 one another for trying to understand this better. 759 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,320 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm hmm. Yeah, I think you brought up the 760 00:42:05,639 --> 00:42:07,960 better to pluck out your eye than to and and 761 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,199 you know, enter heaven blind than to be thrown into 762 00:42:10,199 --> 00:42:12,199 the lake of fire or whatever the exact the exact 763 00:42:12,199 --> 00:42:16,440 phrasing is. And there's of course several several examples given 764 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,880 in that passage. Let's see. I think it's in Mark. 765 00:42:21,679 --> 00:42:26,760 I think this is the first I'd considered this. But 766 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,079 even that passage gives me a little bit of pause 767 00:42:29,199 --> 00:42:32,880 because the implication of the text is basically, it's better 768 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:38,440 to torture yourself. It's better to torture yourself, uh, and 769 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,239 and avoid sin and enter into the Kingdom of Heaven 770 00:42:42,639 --> 00:42:45,880 than to be then then to be thrown into hell. 771 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,559 And then of course that's what gets into uh where 772 00:42:48,559 --> 00:42:50,360 the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. 773 00:42:50,599 --> 00:42:54,480 And of course I know the conditional immortality view, you know, 774 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,280 would say that maybe the fire is not quenched, but 775 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,760 that does not mean that that human souls are not quenched. Whatever. 776 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,760 It's hard for me to imagine a place where the 777 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,960 worm does not die but human beings do. And I 778 00:43:09,639 --> 00:43:12,360 just even the imagery of like it's better to cut 779 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,960 off your hand than to be thrown into hell, It's like, well, 780 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,280 why is that? Like, if if torture is temporary either way, 781 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,159 then why is that? And I know that's not like 782 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,199 that's not a typical proof text, But even as I 783 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:27,800 was reading that this week, it gave me a little 784 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,199 bit of pause because I'm like, what, what's the implication here? 785 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,159 If if either way the suffering is temporary, does that 786 00:43:34,199 --> 00:43:34,719 make sense? 787 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:35,559 Speaker 2: Yeah? 788 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,039 Speaker 3: Yeah, these are these are good questions, and these are 789 00:43:38,079 --> 00:43:41,760 the kinds of questions that that we dive deep into 790 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,679 with with Hellgate, as you as you saw and as 791 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:51,079 you heard, and there are there are robust arguments on 792 00:43:51,159 --> 00:43:54,519 both sides of this. If you look at the language 793 00:43:54,519 --> 00:43:56,159 that Jesus is using there, you're going to go back 794 00:43:56,159 --> 00:43:58,599 to Isaiah sixty six, You're going to go back into 795 00:43:58,639 --> 00:44:00,840 the Old Testament where you see that same language being 796 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:02,360 quoted by Jesus. 797 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:04,199 Speaker 2: And when when you. 798 00:44:04,159 --> 00:44:06,079 Speaker 3: Look at places like Sodom and Gomorrow, when you look 799 00:44:06,079 --> 00:44:09,440 at places like eatam Uh, these are places that are 800 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:15,280 not still burning although it refers to eternal fire, refers 801 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:20,559 to the smoke rising and never ending, and they would 802 00:44:20,599 --> 00:44:23,519 say that this is referring to a final, complete destruction 803 00:44:23,639 --> 00:44:24,199 and judgment. 804 00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 2: So that's why we did Hellgate, because it's not easy 805 00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:32,519 enough to get to the bottom of. 806 00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 1: In my view, yeah, it's well worth the watch, walworth 807 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,880 the listen. Definitely I would encourage all of our viewers 808 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,280 to to go watch Hellgate. Definitely worth it. I of 809 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,960 course brought up like one of my very minor non 810 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,000 even proof text objections to it. 811 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 3: I think, but these are the questions that I think 812 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,519 people want to, They want to they want to wrestle with. 813 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,280 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean this is this is a straight up 814 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:56,280 Bible study. 815 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 3: This is the Bible revival that we need within the 816 00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:02,559 church because too many people can go to church their 817 00:45:02,599 --> 00:45:04,079 whole life and their pastors never going to. 818 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:04,639 Speaker 2: Talk about hell. 819 00:45:05,079 --> 00:45:08,280 Speaker 3: Why because it freaks people out, it divides them. But 820 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,400 shouldn't we talk about it when Jesus talked about it 821 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,039 as much as he did. When our friends and family 822 00:45:13,159 --> 00:45:16,000 souls are at stake, we've got to talk about these 823 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,719 things and we should know why we believe what we believe. 824 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,519 And I think the best way is to ask questions 825 00:45:21,559 --> 00:45:22,599 like you're asking. 826 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,800 Speaker 1: The one thing that doesn't sit quite right with me 827 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,239 still or did and hell Gate didn't quite move the 828 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,840 needle needle for me on it was during your initial 829 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:35,039 podcast you had brought up the concern that you know, 830 00:45:35,199 --> 00:45:38,840 is hell is the the idea of eternal conscious punishment, 831 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,719 eternal conscious torment? Is that really compatible with a God 832 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,800 who is loving and mercy? That yes, God is just, 833 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:46,519 but he is also these things and so can we? 834 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 2: You know? 835 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,559 Speaker 1: It's it kind of goes back to the classic retor 836 00:45:49,639 --> 00:45:51,199 of could a love and God send people to hell? 837 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,400 But as a Christian, you know, asking like do is 838 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,119 what we know about the character of God. Is that 839 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,119 compatible with the idea that a loving God could send 840 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,440 h could send people to hell? And what still trips 841 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,280 me up about that, or is unconvincing for me, is 842 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,320 just that God perfectly defines both justice and love. He 843 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,760 is both of these things completely. But the way that 844 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:18,280 we experience God's love and mercy is ultimately through Christ 845 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,960 and the common grace that He gives us on earth 846 00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:25,000 that should lead us to repentance in Him, repentance and faith. 847 00:46:25,519 --> 00:46:28,159 And my question is, you know, we know that at 848 00:46:28,199 --> 00:46:30,360 the end of time, every k nee will bow and 849 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,599 every tongue will confess that Christ is Lord. And yet 850 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,760 that is not an argument for universalism because not all 851 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:42,280 will continue into Heaven with Christ. So there's this recognition 852 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,119 that He's God. And yet the time for repentance, the 853 00:46:45,199 --> 00:46:49,280 time for salvation is past. And you know, at that 854 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,880 time when the goats and the sheep are separated, when 855 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,800 the we is separated from the chaff, whatever biblical imagery 856 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,199 you want to use, you know, do we have reason 857 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:04,199 to believe that it is still time for mercy? You know? 858 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:09,280 Or is God has God's mercy like exhausted itself? 859 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:09,480 Speaker 3: You know? 860 00:47:09,519 --> 00:47:13,239 Speaker 1: Are we only experiencing Can God's mercy then only be 861 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,639 experienced through Christ in heaven? And do we need to 862 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:21,639 assume that those who are lost without Christ will continue 863 00:47:21,679 --> 00:47:23,840 to experience his mercy because I don't know that. We 864 00:47:24,039 --> 00:47:26,920 do need to believe that? Does that make sense? 865 00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:32,119 Speaker 3: It totally makes sense. I agree with you. I'm there 866 00:47:32,159 --> 00:47:34,239 with you on that. I don't think. 867 00:47:34,679 --> 00:47:35,400 Speaker 2: I don't believe. 868 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:41,800 Speaker 3: I don't see any contradiction in the God of the 869 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:46,880 Bible not showing mercy to the wicked after they have 870 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,519 rejected the means of his mercy, which is the Gospel. 871 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,400 So I don't have any and I don't see a 872 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,840 connection there. I don't think that makes God a moral 873 00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:01,760 monster at all. I agree with the logic. The greatest 874 00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:03,679 commandment is to love God with all of our heart, 875 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:05,920 all of our mind, and with all of our strength. 876 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,039 He is deserving of infinite worship and obedience and reverence, 877 00:48:10,159 --> 00:48:13,599 and to fail to do that is to commit an 878 00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,400 infinite sin, and an infinite sin is deserving of an 879 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,719 infinite punishment. I see that tracks all the way through. 880 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,000 I'm just asking, is that what the Bible really teaches? 881 00:48:23,679 --> 00:48:25,599 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think Kirk, that we could probably have a 882 00:48:25,599 --> 00:48:28,119 two hour conversation ourselves on this as two non experts, 883 00:48:28,159 --> 00:48:30,000 but our time is short, so I am just going 884 00:48:30,079 --> 00:48:32,360 to end on one final question that is so much 885 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,800 lighter than the health topic. I want to talk to 886 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,239 you about your children's book and see you at the 887 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,920 library day. That's the first way that we actually connected, 888 00:48:41,519 --> 00:48:43,519 and I would just love to know. Can we expect 889 00:48:43,519 --> 00:48:45,639 to see any more children's books from you? And are 890 00:48:45,639 --> 00:48:48,800 you planning to re up the library tour in twenty 891 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:49,360 twenty six? 892 00:48:50,159 --> 00:48:54,599 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I am so excited about seeing you at 893 00:48:54,599 --> 00:48:56,440 the library in twenty twenty six. 894 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:57,519 Speaker 2: So for those who. 895 00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,440 Speaker 3: Aren't aware, you know I was locked out of public 896 00:49:00,519 --> 00:49:03,400 libraries when I wanted to read books of Christian virtue, 897 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,800 about faith, hope and love to kids, even though they 898 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,400 were letting drag queens in there to read and teach 899 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:15,639 the Rainbow religion to these kids about sexual identity and 900 00:49:15,679 --> 00:49:20,400 all this. And now under the new administration, we've been 901 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,920 invited to the Library of Congress, I mean, the largest, 902 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,599 most beautiful public library in the country to read these 903 00:49:27,639 --> 00:49:30,480 books about loving your neighbor and about the priority of 904 00:49:30,599 --> 00:49:32,639 family and trusting in God. 905 00:49:33,519 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 1: Kirk is Brave Books dot Com also where people can 906 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,519 submit requests to be a library stop for the tour. 907 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,079 Speaker 2: Yes, yes you can. You can find a library, you 908 00:49:41,119 --> 00:49:43,440 can host a library event. Go to brag books dot 909 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:44,599 com awesome. 910 00:49:44,599 --> 00:49:46,400 Speaker 1: If you want to see Kirk Cameron in your own town, 911 00:49:46,599 --> 00:49:49,800 submit a request there. Kirk, we are at time, but 912 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:51,800 I am so so thankful for your time today. I 913 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,400 had a great time talking with you. Thank you again 914 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:59,719 so much for joining the show. Thank you so much 915 00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,480 for two into this week's episode of the Kylie Cast. 916 00:50:02,559 --> 00:50:05,199 If you haven't done so already, please like and subscribe 917 00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,280 wherever you get your podcasts. Go check out the hell 918 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,360 Gate video that Kirk Cameron posted recently. It's two and 919 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,280 a half hours, but it is well worth a listen, 920 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,840 and of course follow him on social media. Check out 921 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,480 his own podcast. I will be right back here next 922 00:50:19,519 --> 00:50:23,159 week with more. So until then, just remember the truth hurts, 923 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:24,199 but it won't kill you.