Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 1: My name is Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 2: Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Bill Thomas. Kristin Dilly
is not with us today. She's taking care of a
family situation, but she will be back next week your
on mind over Murder. We're really pleased to have as
our guest today retired Virginia State Police investigator Danny Plott.
Danny and I've met several times over the years and
have some very good conversations about his views on the
Colonial Parkway murders. Before we get into American detective on
the Colonial Parkway murders, Dany, tell us a little bit
about yourself. How did you get into law enforcement to
start with?
Speaker 4: That could be the whole your whole podcast. Okay, No,
there was a let's just say, an episode or an incident.
If you hear something tweeting in the back, it's my
bird he thinks he should be interviewed. An incident that
took place when I was probably ten eleven that kind
of opened my eyes to the good policeman of the world,
but I just filed it away. And then when I
was in my late teens, I ended up becoming a
support officer which is a fancy name for cadet in Richmond,
Virginia Police Department, and then became a patrolman or a
police officer in the same department. And then after a
couple of years, I went with the State Police. Been
thirty four years with them, and then three years as
a chief in a small town in Virginia called Colonial Beach.
What you know we're talking about here today is I
started out as a uniform trooper in the state Police,
then went undercover drugs, got interested in criminal investigation, and
became what they call a special agent, which is a
fancy word for detective in nineteen eighty eight. So when
your sister and Rebecca were slain in eighty six, I
was an investigator, but I was a narcotics investigator.
Speaker 2: You had said that back when you were doing the
undercover thing. This is drug related, mostly drug related.
Speaker 4: Mostly. Yeah, it just like anything else. If they needed
to do something, they did, But most of my cases
were drug related.
Speaker 2: Let me start off with a general question. How do
you feel about the Virginia State Police's track record in
solving murders and other serious crime?
Speaker 4: Wow? First question, Huh. I think it's good. I think
it's like so many police departments, it's an uphill battles,
especially in this day and time. I feel with social media,
the Internet and television, it's almost like some things, some
shows or some it's just crazy about how if you
want to commit a crime and get away with it,
here's how you do it. If you want to build
a bomb, here's how you do it. But overall, I
think the State Police do a good job. In this
show the American Detective about the Parkway murders, of course,
you talk for a long time and then they cut
it all to heck and during the Parkway murders, towards
the end, it seems to say, I blame all the
delay and all the problems on the FBI, and I don't.
The FBI had problems and did things wrong, just like
the State Police, and they really didn't go much into
the Park Service rangers, who basically really screwed up both
of the FBI's crime scenes to the nth degree. But
there's not an agency that worked that directly, which would
have been the Virginia State Police, the FBI, the park Rangers,
the York County Sheriff's Department, of the Isle of White
Sheriff's Department that didn't make mistakes. We didn't know what
we had till it started getting ugly.
Speaker 2: What's your overall take on the Colonial Parkway murders. One
of the perennial questions now for thirty eight years, Denny,
is are these four double homicides in the Colonial Parkway murders?
Are they related or are they not related? Watching American Detective,
I feel like there were some conclusions or potential conclusions
being put forward, But what's your personal take?
Speaker 4: Sure? And I'll be the first to tell you, and
I don't believe they put it in the show, although
I talked talked about it. Is of the four murders,
I thought the Ragged Island, David Nobling and Robert Edward's
murder was the one that was different.
Speaker 2: Oh not at God tell us, why what made you
think that Edward's Nobling was different.
Speaker 4: I worked very hard with another special agent, God Rest
his soul, Larry Johnson, he recently passed away. Larry was convinced,
and he convinced me that we had the man who
had done it. Like a lot of things in law enforcement,
just because somebody doesn't I know somebody did something doesn't
mean you can prove it in court. If you can't
prove it in court, it's not worth a nickel. For
one thing, a firearm was used, which was not usual
that we knew of. Another reason in it was they
lumped it in. But Ragged Island is about an hour
from the Parkway, and it's quite a ways away, and
it's through some urban And I was convinced, and not
just because of Larry, but I read every one of
those files Bill in the early nineties, and there seemed
to me so much different about David at Robins murder.
But thank goodness, I was wrong, and I have never
been happier to be wrong in my life. Let me
answer your question. I beat around the bush. Yes, I
believe after finding out Ragged Island, he was tied directly
to Ragged Island, as he was to another lady's murder
in Hampton. I believe that he did them all. I
think all of those murders in some way, And of
course Ragged Island is DNA, there's no doubt, right, or
maybe a billionth of a doubt. But all those other murders,
he was a waterman. All those murders were around water.
The last one and I'm not positive of this bill
exactly which one it is, but either belonged to a
hunt club in New Kent County where Anna, Maria and
Daniel were found, or he belonged to a hunt club
that was right beside that area. In other words, he
could easily have hunted on these people's property and he
would have known. And so much has changed now. That
was nothing but an ugly logging road at one time.
And whoever took them up there and knew.
Speaker 2: Where they were going having been there myself several times
I recognized I was trespassing, and when I did.
Speaker 4: It, it's still just grown up some, but it's basically
still there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've walked that area several times, and when you
get into those old logging roads, which are actually surprisingly wide,
you could see how you could drive a semi trailer
or a large truck.
Speaker 4: Yeah. They bring those big log trucks in there and
the big logging equipment, and so the road has to
be pretty wide and pretty decent shape to support all
that weight.
Speaker 2: I know there's some rough spots when you are first
entering that property, but once you get up onto the
grassy areas, you could have easily driven a car a
truck through there.
Speaker 4: If I remember, it was not as easy to get
from the It was not as hard to get from
the road to the actual back in the woods logging road.
But everything changes and it's different. But like you said,
once you get back some very little has changed. It's
still a very desolate place.
Speaker 2: Let's jump back for a second to something you said
a moment ago. Larry Johnson, whom I've heard about from
my late father. Larry Johnson, longtime Virginia State Police investigator
now deceased. He was convinced that the team had identified
an offender. I'm not asking you to name names here,
but I'm assuming that offender was not Alan Wade Wilmer Senior.
Speaker 4: No, it was not. And what tied this suspect in
a lot of ways to Robin, not so much David.
They were from the same general area of Newport News.
They ran in the same crowd. He was at that
time a street level drug dealer, robing god rest her
soul was fourteen going on twenty one. He had interest
in Robin and she wouldn't reciprocate. And we have several
witnesses of parties that he got so mad he put
his hand through a wall, hit a wall so hard,
and there were some every some other things I'm not
going into on a family podcast, but there were some
things that tied him into it. And the one that
you rarely hear talked about but happened was there were
we had a very good he was basically Larry's informator,
Larry's witness, but he was very nervous about talking about
this guy because he had been raped by the same
guy and went to the police and the police had
him arrested. Then when he got to court, he said
he made it all up. And he told Larry that
this man said go ahead and testify. I may not
do it, but I'm going to kill you and your family.
And he said he believed it. This was a pretty
violent man, and it just it all seemed to fit.
And we brought him in and talked to him stage
the whole files and pictures and everything. And he listened
to the opening shall we say, monologue for about three
or four minutes and laughed and stood up and said,
y'all ain't got shit, and got up and walked out.
And he was correct. We didn't have anything to hold
him on. He didn't spend a lot of time saying
he didn't do it, but he didn't do.
Speaker 2: You still think there's any possibility that guy ties in somehow, But.
Speaker 4: No, he was Afro American, although that didn't matter. It
was a very diverse neighborhood that wasn't a white section
of black section. Everybody hung out. But no, he would
not have been in Wilmer's circle of acquaintances.
Speaker 2: Now I know who the man is that we're speaking of,
but we're not going to name names. Last time I checked.
He was still alive.
Speaker 4: Last time I remember has probably been fifteen twenty years,
but yeah, he was still alive.
Speaker 2: Now it seems to me that same suspect tied into
two men that were hit by a train. Is that
the same guy?
Speaker 4: Yes, the man I spoke of Larry's informant, he and
another man like on a sometime during the week. He
called Larry and say, look, I got to get all
this off my chest. There's a lot I need to
tell you. And they made an appoint for him. They
talked to him like today, and then they made an
appointment for the Monday, Tuesday. Next Monday and Tuesday during
the weekend, him and another man and left the bar
either passed out or got knocked out or whatever, but
they were on the railroad tracks. The train came killed
Larry's informant, and I believe this other man lost a
arm and a leg or one or the other. We
tried to talk to him, and he wouldn't talk to us,
and in fact, he ended up getting a court order
that we couldn't approach him anymore about the murders. Now.
I don't know why, but he wouldn't even talk to us.
Speaker 2: So you believe actually that the suspect that you were
speaking of, that he may have actually been killed in this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I don't think. Sometimes you have to have
a program. The man that we considered the suspect, these
two guys that were hit by the train, they ran
in the same circles. And remember, Larry's informant had the
suspect arrested for raping him and then threatened his family,
and the Larry's informant said, he made it all up,
but there was a lot more going on. We don't
think that at the time, we wondered, but he knows
somehow he was coming to us and killed him. But
it doesn't appear that way now. I don't know what happened.
I don't know how you either pass out or fall
asleep on a railroad track, but they did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, supposedly they left the bar and were really drunk,
blind drunk, and I don't know whether you end up
falling asleep or passing out hard.
Speaker 4: If you pass out, you you would think that you
hear a train coming. I don't know. It must have
been a horrible way to pass out of this world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so one killed in one very badly injured
or lost two limbs. He's not Wilmer. So we now
know that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior killed Robin Edwards, David Nobling,
and Teresa Howell.
Speaker 4: Correct, we can tie through DNA him directly to Robin
and Teresa Howe. But it's clear whoever killed Robin killed David,
same caliber gun, same bullet fragments. So yeah, it's all
three of them, but the DNA tied him only directly
to Teresa and Robin.
Speaker 2: I find myself very frustrated by the one step forward,
two steps back aspect of the case. The suspect that
we're not naming today Danny, He's not Alan Wade Wilmer Sr.
Who is linked via DNA.
Speaker 4: Correct, And that's not him.
Speaker 2: And as you were saying, we know via DNA testing,
which has only been available in the last five seven
years to this level.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it just keeps getting better and better.
Speaker 2: And this is something that a number of investigators, including yourself,
had said to me over the years, which is that
we hope that as the science advances, that will provide
us with addition opportunities to identify.
Speaker 4: Oh it has, and they have. I'm pretty sure the
Virginia State Police have several It's almost like a field
DNA test, and it's not as simple as dropping something
in a machine, but it's something that the department itself
can do instead of having descended to a lab and
then keeping it forever because they're backed up. I'm not
throwing down on the DNA people, but there is now
a field test or a field machine that'll do it.
But of course the people that run this machine. It's
very costly, but I know the State police have used
it successfully a couple times. I think there's two or
three in the state.
Speaker 2: Do you know why after all these years and we
had literally been begging the Virginia State Police to do
advance forensics with the remaining evidence in the Robin Edwards
David Noblin case. They find requested a SAKI grant, a
Sexual Assault Kit Initiative grant. We had heard from current
investigators that there was some maybe conflict isn't exactly the
word I'm looking for here, but that there was a
concern which we understood that there was a very small
amount of highly degraded DNA remaining from Robin Edwards's body.
But I remember talking to the Edwards family and our
attitude was no time like the present. In other words,
we're not all of us, We're not getting any younger
waiting for answers, and so we were literally begging the
Virginia State Police to move forward, and then they finally decided,
together with the Department of Forensic Science, to request a
SAKI grant. Do you know why that might have taken place?
Speaker 4: No, Bill, There's still a lot of people with the
Virginia State Police that I can consider my friends and
talk to me. But as far as going through official channels,
just like I'm not on the FBI's Christmas card list,
I don't think I'm on the Virginia State Police is.
I might get a card, but it wouldn't be.
Speaker 2: Signed for you and me both are not on their
Christmas card list.
Speaker 4: Hey, all I wanted to happen has happened, So I'm
happy as a pig and slop.
Speaker 2: One would think, though, with the thirty four years you
had in with the Virginia State Police, that they'd at
least put up with you.
Speaker 4: They would, people would tell me things, but no, it's
believe me, it's and you wouldn't know this. The last
let's see four to the last almost ten years, I
spent with the Virginia State Police was in uniform, and
yes they're the same department. They do two different jobs
with a state police and I think sometimes there were
some people within the Bureau of Crime Investigation that thought
I was a trader or something. So I left Criminal Investigation.
I try to keep up with with any kind of
new leagues on the parkway, but there weren't any. And
one of the people who supervised it up there he
and I didn't see. How was that?
Speaker 2: So aren't you being diplomatic today?
Speaker 4: Oh, try to turn over a new leaf bill.
Speaker 2: While we're on the Virginia State Police part of the case,
do you feel like there's opportunities in incident number four Anna,
Marie Phelps, and Daniel Lower? Are there still open issues there?
From your perspective? I know you haven't worked for the
Virginia State Police for a number of years, but just
based on your understanding of the case, the kind of
breakthrough we saw with Robin Edwards and David Nobling, is
there potential elsewhere?
Speaker 4: I have heard I've heard a rumor a few years
ago that there was going to be some kind of
announcement on that. But the man who investigated is the
most and I can tell you that his leading suspect
was not Alan David Wilmer. It was a relative of
Anna Maria, and he was pretty sure he had done it.
But this guy had passed away too. And in fact,
he told me that when he approached other family members
said what do you think about Uncle Danny or whatever?
They eh, you know, maybe he had a real infatuation
with with Anna.
Speaker 2: Maria and this longtime investigator were talking about Doc Lions
or are we talking about somebody else Doc.
Speaker 4: Lions, who I don't think he has anymore. He was
a sheriff of Northumberland County and Doc was an ace investigator.
I'll be as far as I knew. He put the
most time and effort into that case. And I tried
to get him to talk to I'm not sure who
people would me and I'd say, there's only so much
I can tell you, but talk to him and talk
to them. I never heard Doc say that he wouldn't
do it, but to my knowledge, he never has done it.
Speaker 2: I've talked to Doc as well, and he speaks of
this case. This is several years ago now, with great authority,
and I could tell he was really passionate about solving this.
Speaker 4: Oh yes, I think I think it really got to
Doc that all of them were there. There's so many
twists and turns they get lumped together, and rightfully, especially
now is the Parkway murders. But each two people had
their own story, and each scene and each circumstances were different,
but they were like if that makes yeah, you can
sit back and look at him.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind of a Murder. We'll be right
back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here
at Mind over Murder. But if Doc Lyons is right
that Anna Maria phelps Daniel Lauer murder in nineteen eighty
nine off inter State sixty four, that would appear to
be an independent event as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I am not second yes, Doc, because I'm
sure he could probably talk about some of that case
in his sleep. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I had that impression as well.
Speaker 4: This man was not a direct relative of Anna Maria.
And I'll tell you right now, he was an uncle
or a cousin or something. I just don't think he
by himself. Hearing about him and the kind of person
he was, I don't think he could confront those two
kids and done what was done to him. Daniel Lower
was a tall rangy the kid. Anna Marie was no
shrinking Violet. And whoever killed Daniel and Anne Marie had
control over him. And as far as we know, at
least a knife was used somewhere in the crime. But hey,
I tell people I was wrong about Rag Island. But
the thing to me that I always wondered about New
Kent's was if the uncle, let's say, the uncle cousin,
whoever he was, did it, then how was he familiar
with that logging trail? Because you know that wasn't just
luck back then. It's right now as you talk about,
there's posts up there with a chain or something that
didn't used to be there. It was just a hidden
little turn. And we asked, did he hunt down there
or was he familiar down here?
Speaker 2: No, he was.
Speaker 4: He was from up there above Richmond and didn't get
a lot of places. I'd be surprised if it was
him could be.
Speaker 2: And I've entered that hunt club, as I said several times,
for the longest time. There was no nothing blocking that
you could I didn't drive up there, but I easily
could have. Yeah, and even with the there's two posts
and a chain across and it might say no trespassing
or something like that. It's a relatively easy place to
get into. But back then in the eighties, you could
have driven right in there, Noble.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it wasn't you could. You didn't see it
as well, especially at night.
Speaker 2: No, and I totally agree with you. This isn't a
place you stumble upon.
Speaker 4: No, And I know that. I don't know what was
going on. It was an anniversary of one of them
or whatever. I remember New Kent had to station a
deputy there one time because people were just like parking
on the road to walk up there. I don't know
if the word got out or whatever. And that's when
they put the barrier up there. And I'm like you,
I've been up there and I was a police chief.
Then I'm thinking I don't want to get arrested by
a New Ken deputy. So I found the general location
and walked on back down.
Speaker 2: I know our friend Blaine Pardot has told a story
about he had gone to the New Kent County sheriffs
and spoke to them about what they knew, and then
he drove by the site and there was a deputy
sheriff city a call waiting for him to make sure
that he didn't head up the road. He got the
message that they did not want him to trespass. One
of the things that always troubled me about this case
was that the movement of the vehicles and what I
would call staging of the vehicles, it seems so complicated
for one individual to pull all that off. You. In
other words, you can't drive two motor vehicles at the
same time.
Speaker 4: No, you're right. The logistics on that. Remember they were
coming eastbound on sixty four down tour Hampton Roads. Their
car was found westbound going back towards Richmond. So if
it had been one individual, let's say he was parked
on the eastbound side and got control of him there.
But then after he's killed them, he's got to walk
all the way up that logging road. I see.
Speaker 2: Not if he drives a car right.
Speaker 4: And puts it westbound, but then he's got to cross
the interstate to get to his car over there.
Speaker 2: It's not that it's not that far though. I was
here with one investigator who showed me how it would
be possible for one point way to do it.
Speaker 4: But I know anything's possible, Bill, I just the biggest
thing with this relative is I just don't believe he
could have gained that easy in control. But maybe he
had a gun. And when somebody is a gun and
you don't, you tend to do what they tell you
to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I've talked about this Onmind over Murder before years ago.
I was held up with a gun, and when a
person sticks a gun in your face, you do what
you're sure that establishment of control in the early goings
of an encounter like this. That doesn't necessarily mean that
the killer would use the gun, but he might use
it to establish control even if his preferred method, let's say,
is the knife. Sure, let me switch gears with you
for a second. How did you and joke Kendem meet.
Speaker 4: I had never seen the show, of course, that made
him famous as homicide Hunter about the years he was
a homicide detective in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Then he was
a sergeant and a lieutenant I think in the homicide division.
But I had a lady who was a detective that
kept asking me had I seen this show? And I
told her, which I tell people a lot. Now. I'm
not big on police shows. I have a terrible tendency
to sit there and go that ain't going to happen,
and things like that. Although I've liked some of them,
I really haven't. I watched a couple of his and
I was impressed. His delivery was excellent. These little sayings
he's famous for saying my things like that. He was
just unnatural to do it. So anyway, she always was
talking about she'd love to meet him, and wonder did he.
I looked up on the internet how to maybe get
an autograph, picture or something from Joe Kenda, and it
said easiest way to get hold of him was Twitter.
I had never had Twitter in my life, still don't,
but I got it one time and reached out and
tweeted mister Kenda, told him who I was, told him
what I wanted, and shoot. Ten to fifteen minutes later,
I get a tweet back shirt, what's her name? Where
do you want?
Speaker 2: It?
Speaker 4: Sent? Very nice yeah, and asked me did I want
a picture? I said sure? So anyway, I thought that
was it, and the same day, probably about thirty minutes later,
the phone ring Danny Plott, chi Plot whatever I said,
He said, Hey, this is Joe Kenda.
Speaker 2: Oh, he said, Well.
Speaker 4: The first thing I thought was yeah, who is this really?
But you can't mistake that voice, right. So we got
to talking and he said he had just seen my
tweet and appreciated me reaching out and was glad his
What made him happy is when other police officers enjoyed
the show. And I said, oh, okay, so how's the
weather in Colorado? And he said I wouldn't know. I said,
you don't live in Colorado anymore? He said, no, I
live in Suffolk, Virginia.
Speaker 2: And oh, sall shocked me.
Speaker 4: He had to hear. And his wife had moved to
Suffolk to be near their son, who was in his
last years of the Navy. And I think his wife
at the time had some breathing things that didn't work
well in Colorado. Could the auction level up there? It's
pretty low. So anyway, and I said, hey, let's break
some bread together or something. And I took this lady
who was a detective and a friend of hers, and
myself and we met Joe at the Virginia Diner, which
is there on four sixty and going towards Suffolk, and
we had a nice talk. That's I heard maybe a
hundredth of Joe's stories and it went real well, and
we just kept in touch, and he and this lady
detective became even other friends, Biggar friends. She met his wife.
She went to Suffolk for training and stayed with him
down there.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, so she gets a nice I mean she was.
Speaker 4: A family friend.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: It just hit me. One day I had talked to
Blame Parto with the book and I tell people, and
I sat on this show, but they cut it that
if you want a deep dive into the actual Parkway
murders and the lives of all those kids, and to me,
they'll always be kids, get a special kind of evil
by Blamed Parto. I had already talked, interviewed by him.
I'm not sure. I think had already. I had already
seen he received, sent me off atograph book. Yeah, and
thanked me, which was very nice, and I just thought so.
One day I met Joe and Willisburg for a meal
and I brought the book, I said, and we talked
about this on the show. They cut it. I said, look, Joe,
I said, you tell me who did these murders, or
even one of the murders. I said, you'll never have
to buy another drink in your life. He said, you
shouldn't have said that. But anyway, and no, I'm sorry,
a little bit off on the time, and I forget
when I gave him the book. But then I met
him in Willisburg. We had lunch one day and he
gave me the book back. He said, I got I
got three suspects. I thought, holy shit, this wat he said,
the FBI, the Virginia State Police, and the US Park Service.
I said, thanks a lot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, really no, that was it.
Speaker 4: And then I think he contacted I Discovery years ago
and by years ago seventeen eighteen nineteen about doing a show,
but they would not because it was still an active case.
And I understand that completely. You don't have a you
don't at that time, you didn't have a suspect. You
could come on TV and said have you seen this man?
So they wouldn't touch it. And then when Wilmer was
tied to Ragged Island and they were suddenly full speed ahead,
and that's how the show came about. But that's how Joe,
he said, it's a very interesting case. He said, the
problem is all the mistakes that were made, and he's
absolutely correct. They contacted him. He was a Colorado Springs
I think he was a lieutenant when Joan Benet Ramsey
was killed and about he said, about a month after
all that happened, they called him and warned him to
look at he said. Do you think I'm crazy? He said,
You've tried this case in the media for a month.
I'm not touching it with a ten foot pole.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that case was a disaster from the world. Yeah,
from the workhow Yeah, such a shame. Join us again
next time as we continue our conversation with Danny Plott.
Part two of our conversation on the Colonial Parkway murders
and the American Detective series with Joke Kenda will continue
next week. Kristin Dilly will be back with us very soon.
As always, thanks for joining us here on Mindover Murder.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter a
Bill Thomas five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.