1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 1: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,359 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 2: Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Bill Thomas. Kristin Dilly 15 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:45,320 is not with us today. She's taking care of a 16 00:00:45,359 --> 00:00:48,079 family situation, but she will be back next week your 17 00:00:48,119 --> 00:00:51,240 on mind over Murder. We're really pleased to have as 18 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,799 our guest today retired Virginia State Police investigator Danny Plott. 19 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,200 Danny and I've met several times over the years and 20 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,960 have some very good conversations about his views on the 21 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:07,040 Colonial Parkway murders. Before we get into American detective on 22 00:01:07,079 --> 00:01:10,000 the Colonial Parkway murders, Dany, tell us a little bit 23 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,959 about yourself. How did you get into law enforcement to 24 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:13,439 start with? 25 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:19,519 Speaker 4: That could be the whole your whole podcast. Okay, No, 26 00:01:19,799 --> 00:01:23,040 there was a let's just say, an episode or an incident. 27 00:01:23,079 --> 00:01:25,159 If you hear something tweeting in the back, it's my 28 00:01:25,239 --> 00:01:28,200 bird he thinks he should be interviewed. An incident that 29 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:33,640 took place when I was probably ten eleven that kind 30 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,680 of opened my eyes to the good policeman of the world, 31 00:01:36,719 --> 00:01:39,719 but I just filed it away. And then when I 32 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,760 was in my late teens, I ended up becoming a 33 00:01:42,879 --> 00:01:47,280 support officer which is a fancy name for cadet in Richmond, 34 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,599 Virginia Police Department, and then became a patrolman or a 35 00:01:51,599 --> 00:01:55,480 police officer in the same department. And then after a 36 00:01:55,519 --> 00:01:59,359 couple of years, I went with the State Police. Been 37 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:04,159 thirty four years with them, and then three years as 38 00:02:04,239 --> 00:02:08,639 a chief in a small town in Virginia called Colonial Beach. 39 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,960 What you know we're talking about here today is I 40 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,240 started out as a uniform trooper in the state Police, 41 00:02:16,479 --> 00:02:20,680 then went undercover drugs, got interested in criminal investigation, and 42 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,599 became what they call a special agent, which is a 43 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:29,400 fancy word for detective in nineteen eighty eight. So when 44 00:02:29,759 --> 00:02:33,360 your sister and Rebecca were slain in eighty six, I 45 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:38,120 was an investigator, but I was a narcotics investigator. 46 00:02:38,719 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 2: You had said that back when you were doing the 47 00:02:41,479 --> 00:02:46,319 undercover thing. This is drug related, mostly drug related. 48 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 4: Mostly. Yeah, it just like anything else. If they needed 49 00:02:50,199 --> 00:02:52,800 to do something, they did, But most of my cases 50 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:53,840 were drug related. 51 00:02:54,879 --> 00:02:57,439 Speaker 2: Let me start off with a general question. How do 52 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,800 you feel about the Virginia State Police's track record in 53 00:03:01,879 --> 00:03:04,560 solving murders and other serious crime? 54 00:03:05,439 --> 00:03:09,719 Speaker 4: Wow? First question, Huh. I think it's good. I think 55 00:03:09,759 --> 00:03:14,560 it's like so many police departments, it's an uphill battles, 56 00:03:15,319 --> 00:03:19,120 especially in this day and time. I feel with social media, 57 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:24,080 the Internet and television, it's almost like some things, some 58 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,199 shows or some it's just crazy about how if you 59 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:30,280 want to commit a crime and get away with it, 60 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,280 here's how you do it. If you want to build 61 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,240 a bomb, here's how you do it. But overall, I 62 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,240 think the State Police do a good job. In this 63 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,240 show the American Detective about the Parkway murders, of course, 64 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,719 you talk for a long time and then they cut 65 00:03:45,759 --> 00:03:50,439 it all to heck and during the Parkway murders, towards 66 00:03:50,479 --> 00:03:53,120 the end, it seems to say, I blame all the 67 00:03:53,199 --> 00:03:56,560 delay and all the problems on the FBI, and I don't. 68 00:03:56,879 --> 00:04:00,520 The FBI had problems and did things wrong, just like 69 00:04:00,599 --> 00:04:03,599 the State Police, and they really didn't go much into 70 00:04:03,639 --> 00:04:09,000 the Park Service rangers, who basically really screwed up both 71 00:04:09,039 --> 00:04:12,840 of the FBI's crime scenes to the nth degree. But 72 00:04:13,199 --> 00:04:16,600 there's not an agency that worked that directly, which would 73 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:21,600 have been the Virginia State Police, the FBI, the park Rangers, 74 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,160 the York County Sheriff's Department, of the Isle of White 75 00:04:24,199 --> 00:04:27,959 Sheriff's Department that didn't make mistakes. We didn't know what 76 00:04:28,079 --> 00:04:30,560 we had till it started getting ugly. 77 00:04:31,319 --> 00:04:35,319 Speaker 2: What's your overall take on the Colonial Parkway murders. One 78 00:04:35,319 --> 00:04:38,519 of the perennial questions now for thirty eight years, Denny, 79 00:04:38,639 --> 00:04:42,279 is are these four double homicides in the Colonial Parkway murders? 80 00:04:42,319 --> 00:04:47,000 Are they related or are they not related? Watching American Detective, 81 00:04:47,199 --> 00:04:51,759 I feel like there were some conclusions or potential conclusions 82 00:04:51,759 --> 00:04:54,079 being put forward, But what's your personal take? 83 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 4: Sure? And I'll be the first to tell you, and 84 00:04:57,319 --> 00:04:59,639 I don't believe they put it in the show, although 85 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,480 I talked talked about it. Is of the four murders, 86 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,279 I thought the Ragged Island, David Nobling and Robert Edward's 87 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,399 murder was the one that was different. 88 00:05:10,199 --> 00:05:12,959 Speaker 2: Oh not at God tell us, why what made you 89 00:05:13,079 --> 00:05:14,879 think that Edward's Nobling was different. 90 00:05:15,519 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 4: I worked very hard with another special agent, God Rest 91 00:05:19,959 --> 00:05:25,040 his soul, Larry Johnson, he recently passed away. Larry was convinced, 92 00:05:25,079 --> 00:05:28,360 and he convinced me that we had the man who 93 00:05:28,399 --> 00:05:31,800 had done it. Like a lot of things in law enforcement, 94 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,800 just because somebody doesn't I know somebody did something doesn't 95 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,079 mean you can prove it in court. If you can't 96 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,720 prove it in court, it's not worth a nickel. For 97 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,000 one thing, a firearm was used, which was not usual 98 00:05:45,079 --> 00:05:49,240 that we knew of. Another reason in it was they 99 00:05:49,319 --> 00:05:54,160 lumped it in. But Ragged Island is about an hour 100 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:58,879 from the Parkway, and it's quite a ways away, and 101 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,480 it's through some urban And I was convinced, and not 102 00:06:02,639 --> 00:06:04,800 just because of Larry, but I read every one of 103 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,920 those files Bill in the early nineties, and there seemed 104 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,959 to me so much different about David at Robins murder. 105 00:06:12,639 --> 00:06:15,639 But thank goodness, I was wrong, and I have never 106 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,759 been happier to be wrong in my life. Let me 107 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,920 answer your question. I beat around the bush. Yes, I 108 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:27,439 believe after finding out Ragged Island, he was tied directly 109 00:06:27,519 --> 00:06:31,240 to Ragged Island, as he was to another lady's murder 110 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,680 in Hampton. I believe that he did them all. I 111 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,480 think all of those murders in some way, And of 112 00:06:38,519 --> 00:06:42,279 course Ragged Island is DNA, there's no doubt, right, or 113 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:47,360 maybe a billionth of a doubt. But all those other murders, 114 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:52,199 he was a waterman. All those murders were around water. 115 00:06:52,399 --> 00:06:55,639 The last one and I'm not positive of this bill 116 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,240 exactly which one it is, but either belonged to a 117 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,399 hunt club in New Kent County where Anna, Maria and 118 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,680 Daniel were found, or he belonged to a hunt club 119 00:07:05,399 --> 00:07:09,040 that was right beside that area. In other words, he 120 00:07:09,079 --> 00:07:13,120 could easily have hunted on these people's property and he 121 00:07:13,199 --> 00:07:16,920 would have known. And so much has changed now. That 122 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,720 was nothing but an ugly logging road at one time. 123 00:07:19,879 --> 00:07:21,879 And whoever took them up there and knew. 124 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,519 Speaker 2: Where they were going having been there myself several times 125 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,920 I recognized I was trespassing, and when I did. 126 00:07:27,759 --> 00:07:31,079 Speaker 4: It, it's still just grown up some, but it's basically 127 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:31,720 still there. 128 00:07:32,399 --> 00:07:35,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've walked that area several times, and when you 129 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,360 get into those old logging roads, which are actually surprisingly wide, 130 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,600 you could see how you could drive a semi trailer 131 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:43,560 or a large truck. 132 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 4: Yeah. They bring those big log trucks in there and 133 00:07:46,399 --> 00:07:50,040 the big logging equipment, and so the road has to 134 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,560 be pretty wide and pretty decent shape to support all 135 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:53,959 that weight. 136 00:07:54,639 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 2: I know there's some rough spots when you are first 137 00:07:57,519 --> 00:08:02,480 entering that property, but once you get up onto the 138 00:08:02,519 --> 00:08:05,759 grassy areas, you could have easily driven a car a 139 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:06,720 truck through there. 140 00:08:06,839 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 4: If I remember, it was not as easy to get 141 00:08:10,519 --> 00:08:13,439 from the It was not as hard to get from 142 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,399 the road to the actual back in the woods logging road. 143 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:22,279 But everything changes and it's different. But like you said, 144 00:08:22,319 --> 00:08:26,639 once you get back some very little has changed. It's 145 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,360 still a very desolate place. 146 00:08:29,319 --> 00:08:31,639 Speaker 2: Let's jump back for a second to something you said 147 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,399 a moment ago. Larry Johnson, whom I've heard about from 148 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,960 my late father. Larry Johnson, longtime Virginia State Police investigator 149 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:45,440 now deceased. He was convinced that the team had identified 150 00:08:45,759 --> 00:08:49,240 an offender. I'm not asking you to name names here, 151 00:08:49,399 --> 00:08:53,480 but I'm assuming that offender was not Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. 152 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 4: No, it was not. And what tied this suspect in 153 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,559 a lot of ways to Robin, not so much David. 154 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,600 They were from the same general area of Newport News. 155 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,279 They ran in the same crowd. He was at that 156 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:17,000 time a street level drug dealer, robing god rest her 157 00:09:17,039 --> 00:09:23,879 soul was fourteen going on twenty one. He had interest 158 00:09:23,919 --> 00:09:28,120 in Robin and she wouldn't reciprocate. And we have several 159 00:09:28,159 --> 00:09:30,639 witnesses of parties that he got so mad he put 160 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,200 his hand through a wall, hit a wall so hard, 161 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,240 and there were some every some other things I'm not 162 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,360 going into on a family podcast, but there were some 163 00:09:40,399 --> 00:09:42,919 things that tied him into it. And the one that 164 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,200 you rarely hear talked about but happened was there were 165 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:52,600 we had a very good he was basically Larry's informator, 166 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,720 Larry's witness, but he was very nervous about talking about 167 00:09:56,799 --> 00:10:00,840 this guy because he had been raped by the same 168 00:10:00,919 --> 00:10:04,240 guy and went to the police and the police had 169 00:10:04,279 --> 00:10:08,480 him arrested. Then when he got to court, he said 170 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,039 he made it all up. And he told Larry that 171 00:10:11,159 --> 00:10:14,960 this man said go ahead and testify. I may not 172 00:10:15,039 --> 00:10:17,320 do it, but I'm going to kill you and your family. 173 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,759 And he said he believed it. This was a pretty 174 00:10:19,879 --> 00:10:23,279 violent man, and it just it all seemed to fit. 175 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,200 And we brought him in and talked to him stage 176 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,960 the whole files and pictures and everything. And he listened 177 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,519 to the opening shall we say, monologue for about three 178 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,600 or four minutes and laughed and stood up and said, 179 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,879 y'all ain't got shit, and got up and walked out. 180 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,320 And he was correct. We didn't have anything to hold 181 00:10:44,399 --> 00:10:47,159 him on. He didn't spend a lot of time saying 182 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,399 he didn't do it, but he didn't do. 183 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 2: You still think there's any possibility that guy ties in somehow, But. 184 00:10:54,879 --> 00:10:58,799 Speaker 4: No, he was Afro American, although that didn't matter. It 185 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,320 was a very diverse neighborhood that wasn't a white section 186 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,120 of black section. Everybody hung out. But no, he would 187 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,759 not have been in Wilmer's circle of acquaintances. 188 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,639 Speaker 2: Now I know who the man is that we're speaking of, 189 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,399 but we're not going to name names. Last time I checked. 190 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:17,360 He was still alive. 191 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 4: Last time I remember has probably been fifteen twenty years, 192 00:11:22,759 --> 00:11:24,200 but yeah, he was still alive. 193 00:11:24,639 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: Now it seems to me that same suspect tied into 194 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:34,360 two men that were hit by a train. Is that 195 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:35,320 the same guy? 196 00:11:36,039 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 4: Yes, the man I spoke of Larry's informant, he and 197 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,320 another man like on a sometime during the week. He 198 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,600 called Larry and say, look, I got to get all 199 00:11:46,639 --> 00:11:48,720 this off my chest. There's a lot I need to 200 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:51,360 tell you. And they made an appoint for him. They 201 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,799 talked to him like today, and then they made an 202 00:11:53,799 --> 00:11:58,279 appointment for the Monday, Tuesday. Next Monday and Tuesday during 203 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,519 the weekend, him and another man and left the bar 204 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,440 either passed out or got knocked out or whatever, but 205 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,960 they were on the railroad tracks. The train came killed 206 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:14,200 Larry's informant, and I believe this other man lost a 207 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,039 arm and a leg or one or the other. We 208 00:12:19,279 --> 00:12:22,919 tried to talk to him, and he wouldn't talk to us, 209 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,039 and in fact, he ended up getting a court order 210 00:12:26,159 --> 00:12:29,240 that we couldn't approach him anymore about the murders. Now. 211 00:12:29,639 --> 00:12:32,120 I don't know why, but he wouldn't even talk to us. 212 00:12:32,399 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 2: So you believe actually that the suspect that you were 213 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:38,519 speaking of, that he may have actually been killed in this. 214 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, but I don't think. Sometimes you have to have 215 00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:48,399 a program. The man that we considered the suspect, these 216 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,840 two guys that were hit by the train, they ran 217 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:55,200 in the same circles. And remember, Larry's informant had the 218 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,919 suspect arrested for raping him and then threatened his family, 219 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,639 and the Larry's informant said, he made it all up, 220 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,440 but there was a lot more going on. We don't 221 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,000 think that at the time, we wondered, but he knows 222 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,039 somehow he was coming to us and killed him. But 223 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,840 it doesn't appear that way now. I don't know what happened. 224 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,159 I don't know how you either pass out or fall 225 00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:22,240 asleep on a railroad track, but they did. 226 00:13:22,799 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, supposedly they left the bar and were really drunk, 227 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,720 blind drunk, and I don't know whether you end up 228 00:13:30,039 --> 00:13:32,519 falling asleep or passing out hard. 229 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 4: If you pass out, you you would think that you 230 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,720 hear a train coming. I don't know. It must have 231 00:13:37,759 --> 00:13:40,679 been a horrible way to pass out of this world. 232 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so one killed in one very badly injured 233 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:50,720 or lost two limbs. He's not Wilmer. So we now 234 00:13:50,879 --> 00:13:55,440 know that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior killed Robin Edwards, David Nobling, 235 00:13:55,519 --> 00:13:56,639 and Teresa Howell. 236 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:02,639 Speaker 4: Correct, we can tie through DNA him directly to Robin 237 00:14:02,759 --> 00:14:08,080 and Teresa Howe. But it's clear whoever killed Robin killed David, 238 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,000 same caliber gun, same bullet fragments. So yeah, it's all 239 00:14:12,039 --> 00:14:15,600 three of them, but the DNA tied him only directly 240 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:17,000 to Teresa and Robin. 241 00:14:18,039 --> 00:14:23,159 Speaker 2: I find myself very frustrated by the one step forward, 242 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,759 two steps back aspect of the case. The suspect that 243 00:14:27,799 --> 00:14:32,919 we're not naming today Danny, He's not Alan Wade Wilmer Sr. 244 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:34,639 Who is linked via DNA. 245 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,279 Speaker 4: Correct, And that's not him. 246 00:14:37,519 --> 00:14:41,799 Speaker 2: And as you were saying, we know via DNA testing, 247 00:14:42,159 --> 00:14:45,480 which has only been available in the last five seven 248 00:14:45,559 --> 00:14:47,039 years to this level. 249 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, it just keeps getting better and better. 250 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,559 Speaker 2: And this is something that a number of investigators, including yourself, 251 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,039 had said to me over the years, which is that 252 00:14:55,279 --> 00:14:59,159 we hope that as the science advances, that will provide 253 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,960 us with addition opportunities to identify. 254 00:15:02,639 --> 00:15:06,639 Speaker 4: Oh it has, and they have. I'm pretty sure the 255 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,759 Virginia State Police have several It's almost like a field 256 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,960 DNA test, and it's not as simple as dropping something 257 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:20,600 in a machine, but it's something that the department itself 258 00:15:20,759 --> 00:15:25,360 can do instead of having descended to a lab and 259 00:15:25,399 --> 00:15:28,039 then keeping it forever because they're backed up. I'm not 260 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,679 throwing down on the DNA people, but there is now 261 00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:35,080 a field test or a field machine that'll do it. 262 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,759 But of course the people that run this machine. It's 263 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,559 very costly, but I know the State police have used 264 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,039 it successfully a couple times. I think there's two or 265 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:45,879 three in the state. 266 00:15:46,679 --> 00:15:49,759 Speaker 2: Do you know why after all these years and we 267 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,399 had literally been begging the Virginia State Police to do 268 00:15:53,559 --> 00:15:57,480 advance forensics with the remaining evidence in the Robin Edwards 269 00:15:57,559 --> 00:16:02,080 David Noblin case. They find requested a SAKI grant, a 270 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:07,440 Sexual Assault Kit Initiative grant. We had heard from current 271 00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:11,399 investigators that there was some maybe conflict isn't exactly the 272 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,159 word I'm looking for here, but that there was a 273 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,960 concern which we understood that there was a very small 274 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,879 amount of highly degraded DNA remaining from Robin Edwards's body. 275 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,080 But I remember talking to the Edwards family and our 276 00:16:28,159 --> 00:16:32,200 attitude was no time like the present. In other words, 277 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,120 we're not all of us, We're not getting any younger 278 00:16:35,519 --> 00:16:39,600 waiting for answers, and so we were literally begging the 279 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,559 Virginia State Police to move forward, and then they finally decided, 280 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,679 together with the Department of Forensic Science, to request a 281 00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:53,000 SAKI grant. Do you know why that might have taken place? 282 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 4: No, Bill, There's still a lot of people with the 283 00:16:58,039 --> 00:17:01,120 Virginia State Police that I can consider my friends and 284 00:17:01,279 --> 00:17:05,079 talk to me. But as far as going through official channels, 285 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,920 just like I'm not on the FBI's Christmas card list, 286 00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:12,039 I don't think I'm on the Virginia State Police is. 287 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,559 I might get a card, but it wouldn't be. 288 00:17:14,519 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 2: Signed for you and me both are not on their 289 00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:20,279 Christmas card list. 290 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,319 Speaker 4: Hey, all I wanted to happen has happened, So I'm 291 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:26,119 happy as a pig and slop. 292 00:17:26,799 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 2: One would think, though, with the thirty four years you 293 00:17:29,519 --> 00:17:32,480 had in with the Virginia State Police, that they'd at 294 00:17:32,559 --> 00:17:33,519 least put up with you. 295 00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 4: They would, people would tell me things, but no, it's 296 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,119 believe me, it's and you wouldn't know this. The last 297 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,759 let's see four to the last almost ten years, I 298 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,839 spent with the Virginia State Police was in uniform, and 299 00:17:55,079 --> 00:17:59,000 yes they're the same department. They do two different jobs 300 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,880 with a state police and I think sometimes there were 301 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,640 some people within the Bureau of Crime Investigation that thought 302 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,440 I was a trader or something. So I left Criminal Investigation. 303 00:18:08,599 --> 00:18:11,480 I try to keep up with with any kind of 304 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,279 new leagues on the parkway, but there weren't any. And 305 00:18:15,839 --> 00:18:18,759 one of the people who supervised it up there he 306 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:20,839 and I didn't see. How was that? 307 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 2: So aren't you being diplomatic today? 308 00:18:24,599 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 4: Oh, try to turn over a new leaf bill. 309 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 2: While we're on the Virginia State Police part of the case, 310 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,839 do you feel like there's opportunities in incident number four Anna, 311 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,759 Marie Phelps, and Daniel Lower? Are there still open issues there? 312 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,960 From your perspective? I know you haven't worked for the 313 00:18:47,039 --> 00:18:49,839 Virginia State Police for a number of years, but just 314 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,000 based on your understanding of the case, the kind of 315 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,920 breakthrough we saw with Robin Edwards and David Nobling, is 316 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:57,400 there potential elsewhere? 317 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,799 Speaker 4: I have heard I've heard a rumor a few years 318 00:19:00,839 --> 00:19:03,839 ago that there was going to be some kind of 319 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:10,160 announcement on that. But the man who investigated is the 320 00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:13,240 most and I can tell you that his leading suspect 321 00:19:13,519 --> 00:19:17,240 was not Alan David Wilmer. It was a relative of 322 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,240 Anna Maria, and he was pretty sure he had done it. 323 00:19:20,319 --> 00:19:24,440 But this guy had passed away too. And in fact, 324 00:19:24,599 --> 00:19:27,559 he told me that when he approached other family members 325 00:19:27,599 --> 00:19:30,519 said what do you think about Uncle Danny or whatever? 326 00:19:30,759 --> 00:19:35,599 They eh, you know, maybe he had a real infatuation 327 00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:36,519 with with Anna. 328 00:19:36,319 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: Maria and this longtime investigator were talking about Doc Lions 329 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,240 or are we talking about somebody else Doc. 330 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 4: Lions, who I don't think he has anymore. He was 331 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:49,240 a sheriff of Northumberland County and Doc was an ace investigator. 332 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,519 I'll be as far as I knew. He put the 333 00:19:52,519 --> 00:19:55,960 most time and effort into that case. And I tried 334 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,200 to get him to talk to I'm not sure who 335 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,200 people would me and I'd say, there's only so much 336 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,559 I can tell you, but talk to him and talk 337 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,559 to them. I never heard Doc say that he wouldn't 338 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:09,880 do it, but to my knowledge, he never has done it. 339 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,279 Speaker 2: I've talked to Doc as well, and he speaks of 340 00:20:13,319 --> 00:20:16,920 this case. This is several years ago now, with great authority, 341 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,200 and I could tell he was really passionate about solving this. 342 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 4: Oh yes, I think I think it really got to 343 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,920 Doc that all of them were there. There's so many 344 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,920 twists and turns they get lumped together, and rightfully, especially 345 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:39,839 now is the Parkway murders. But each two people had 346 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:47,000 their own story, and each scene and each circumstances were different, 347 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,839 but they were like if that makes yeah, you can 348 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,920 sit back and look at him. 349 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind of a Murder. We'll be right 350 00:20:56,519 --> 00:21:07,440 back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here 351 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:12,119 at Mind over Murder. But if Doc Lyons is right 352 00:21:12,319 --> 00:21:16,240 that Anna Maria phelps Daniel Lauer murder in nineteen eighty 353 00:21:16,319 --> 00:21:19,559 nine off inter State sixty four, that would appear to 354 00:21:19,559 --> 00:21:21,319 be an independent event as well. 355 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I am not second yes, Doc, because I'm 356 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,720 sure he could probably talk about some of that case 357 00:21:30,759 --> 00:21:31,920 in his sleep. Yeah. 358 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 2: I had that impression as well. 359 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,279 Speaker 4: This man was not a direct relative of Anna Maria. 360 00:21:39,079 --> 00:21:41,799 And I'll tell you right now, he was an uncle 361 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,880 or a cousin or something. I just don't think he 362 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,640 by himself. Hearing about him and the kind of person 363 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,359 he was, I don't think he could confront those two 364 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,599 kids and done what was done to him. Daniel Lower 365 00:21:58,759 --> 00:22:02,640 was a tall rangy the kid. Anna Marie was no 366 00:22:02,759 --> 00:22:06,920 shrinking Violet. And whoever killed Daniel and Anne Marie had 367 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,000 control over him. And as far as we know, at 368 00:22:10,079 --> 00:22:14,519 least a knife was used somewhere in the crime. But hey, 369 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,880 I tell people I was wrong about Rag Island. But 370 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,480 the thing to me that I always wondered about New 371 00:22:22,599 --> 00:22:27,640 Kent's was if the uncle, let's say, the uncle cousin, 372 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,680 whoever he was, did it, then how was he familiar 373 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,079 with that logging trail? Because you know that wasn't just 374 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,079 luck back then. It's right now as you talk about, 375 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,720 there's posts up there with a chain or something that 376 00:22:43,759 --> 00:22:45,799 didn't used to be there. It was just a hidden 377 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,039 little turn. And we asked, did he hunt down there 378 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,119 or was he familiar down here? 379 00:22:51,279 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 2: No, he was. 380 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 4: He was from up there above Richmond and didn't get 381 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,720 a lot of places. I'd be surprised if it was 382 00:22:58,799 --> 00:22:59,880 him could be. 383 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 2: And I've entered that hunt club, as I said several times, 384 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,440 for the longest time. There was no nothing blocking that 385 00:23:09,079 --> 00:23:11,640 you could I didn't drive up there, but I easily 386 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:16,640 could have. Yeah, and even with the there's two posts 387 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,279 and a chain across and it might say no trespassing 388 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,160 or something like that. It's a relatively easy place to 389 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,559 get into. But back then in the eighties, you could 390 00:23:25,559 --> 00:23:27,799 have driven right in there, Noble. 391 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, but it wasn't you could. You didn't see it 392 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,240 as well, especially at night. 393 00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:35,319 Speaker 2: No, and I totally agree with you. This isn't a 394 00:23:35,319 --> 00:23:36,720 place you stumble upon. 395 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 4: No, And I know that. I don't know what was 396 00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:43,720 going on. It was an anniversary of one of them 397 00:23:43,799 --> 00:23:47,240 or whatever. I remember New Kent had to station a 398 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,039 deputy there one time because people were just like parking 399 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,480 on the road to walk up there. I don't know 400 00:23:53,519 --> 00:23:55,960 if the word got out or whatever. And that's when 401 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,000 they put the barrier up there. And I'm like you, 402 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,480 I've been up there and I was a police chief. 403 00:24:01,519 --> 00:24:03,880 Then I'm thinking I don't want to get arrested by 404 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,599 a New Ken deputy. So I found the general location 405 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,599 and walked on back down. 406 00:24:09,759 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: I know our friend Blaine Pardot has told a story 407 00:24:12,279 --> 00:24:15,680 about he had gone to the New Kent County sheriffs 408 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,440 and spoke to them about what they knew, and then 409 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,559 he drove by the site and there was a deputy 410 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,440 sheriff city a call waiting for him to make sure 411 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,039 that he didn't head up the road. He got the 412 00:24:29,079 --> 00:24:33,200 message that they did not want him to trespass. One 413 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,880 of the things that always troubled me about this case 414 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,319 was that the movement of the vehicles and what I 415 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,240 would call staging of the vehicles, it seems so complicated 416 00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:48,599 for one individual to pull all that off. You. In 417 00:24:48,599 --> 00:24:50,799 other words, you can't drive two motor vehicles at the 418 00:24:50,839 --> 00:24:51,440 same time. 419 00:24:53,079 --> 00:24:57,079 Speaker 4: No, you're right. The logistics on that. Remember they were 420 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,599 coming eastbound on sixty four down tour Hampton Roads. Their 421 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,680 car was found westbound going back towards Richmond. So if 422 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,279 it had been one individual, let's say he was parked 423 00:25:09,279 --> 00:25:12,200 on the eastbound side and got control of him there. 424 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,880 But then after he's killed them, he's got to walk 425 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,880 all the way up that logging road. I see. 426 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 2: Not if he drives a car right. 427 00:25:22,079 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 4: And puts it westbound, but then he's got to cross 428 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,440 the interstate to get to his car over there. 429 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,319 Speaker 2: It's not that it's not that far though. I was 430 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,960 here with one investigator who showed me how it would 431 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,039 be possible for one point way to do it. 432 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,759 Speaker 4: But I know anything's possible, Bill, I just the biggest 433 00:25:39,759 --> 00:25:43,599 thing with this relative is I just don't believe he 434 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,680 could have gained that easy in control. But maybe he 435 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,480 had a gun. And when somebody is a gun and 436 00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:51,279 you don't, you tend to do what they tell you 437 00:25:51,319 --> 00:25:51,519 to do. 438 00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:55,039 Speaker 2: Yeah. I've talked about this Onmind over Murder before years ago. 439 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,359 I was held up with a gun, and when a 440 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,519 person sticks a gun in your face, you do what 441 00:25:59,559 --> 00:26:04,839 you're sure that establishment of control in the early goings 442 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,799 of an encounter like this. That doesn't necessarily mean that 443 00:26:08,839 --> 00:26:11,839 the killer would use the gun, but he might use 444 00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:16,400 it to establish control even if his preferred method, let's say, 445 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,599 is the knife. Sure, let me switch gears with you 446 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,079 for a second. How did you and joke Kendem meet. 447 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,599 Speaker 4: I had never seen the show, of course, that made 448 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,880 him famous as homicide Hunter about the years he was 449 00:26:31,039 --> 00:26:36,079 a homicide detective in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Then he was 450 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,599 a sergeant and a lieutenant I think in the homicide division. 451 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:44,240 But I had a lady who was a detective that 452 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,240 kept asking me had I seen this show? And I 453 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,640 told her, which I tell people a lot. Now. I'm 454 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,839 not big on police shows. I have a terrible tendency 455 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,920 to sit there and go that ain't going to happen, 456 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,880 and things like that. Although I've liked some of them, 457 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,599 I really haven't. I watched a couple of his and 458 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:09,319 I was impressed. His delivery was excellent. These little sayings 459 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,759 he's famous for saying my things like that. He was 460 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,559 just unnatural to do it. So anyway, she always was 461 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,160 talking about she'd love to meet him, and wonder did he. 462 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,079 I looked up on the internet how to maybe get 463 00:27:24,079 --> 00:27:26,960 an autograph, picture or something from Joe Kenda, and it 464 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,559 said easiest way to get hold of him was Twitter. 465 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,839 I had never had Twitter in my life, still don't, 466 00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:36,480 but I got it one time and reached out and 467 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,799 tweeted mister Kenda, told him who I was, told him 468 00:27:39,839 --> 00:27:43,559 what I wanted, and shoot. Ten to fifteen minutes later, 469 00:27:43,599 --> 00:27:46,680 I get a tweet back shirt, what's her name? Where 470 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:47,079 do you want? 471 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 2: It? 472 00:27:47,279 --> 00:27:50,759 Speaker 4: Sent? Very nice yeah, and asked me did I want 473 00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:54,160 a picture? I said sure? So anyway, I thought that 474 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,599 was it, and the same day, probably about thirty minutes later, 475 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,240 the phone ring Danny Plott, chi Plot whatever I said, 476 00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:04,200 He said, Hey, this is Joe Kenda. 477 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 2: Oh, he said, Well. 478 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 4: The first thing I thought was yeah, who is this really? 479 00:28:09,559 --> 00:28:12,880 But you can't mistake that voice, right. So we got 480 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,000 to talking and he said he had just seen my 481 00:28:15,079 --> 00:28:18,400 tweet and appreciated me reaching out and was glad his 482 00:28:19,319 --> 00:28:22,839 What made him happy is when other police officers enjoyed 483 00:28:22,839 --> 00:28:25,960 the show. And I said, oh, okay, so how's the 484 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,880 weather in Colorado? And he said I wouldn't know. I said, 485 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,440 you don't live in Colorado anymore? He said, no, I 486 00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:35,640 live in Suffolk, Virginia. 487 00:28:35,519 --> 00:28:37,839 Speaker 2: And oh, sall shocked me. 488 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,119 Speaker 4: He had to hear. And his wife had moved to 489 00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:44,319 Suffolk to be near their son, who was in his 490 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,839 last years of the Navy. And I think his wife 491 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,240 at the time had some breathing things that didn't work 492 00:28:52,279 --> 00:28:54,960 well in Colorado. Could the auction level up there? It's 493 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,119 pretty low. So anyway, and I said, hey, let's break 494 00:28:58,119 --> 00:29:01,400 some bread together or something. And I took this lady 495 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,160 who was a detective and a friend of hers, and 496 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,160 myself and we met Joe at the Virginia Diner, which 497 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,279 is there on four sixty and going towards Suffolk, and 498 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,960 we had a nice talk. That's I heard maybe a 499 00:29:13,119 --> 00:29:16,000 hundredth of Joe's stories and it went real well, and 500 00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:18,319 we just kept in touch, and he and this lady 501 00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:23,079 detective became even other friends, Biggar friends. She met his wife. 502 00:29:23,319 --> 00:29:26,079 She went to Suffolk for training and stayed with him 503 00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:26,680 down there. 504 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: Oh wow, so she gets a nice I mean she was. 505 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:30,079 Speaker 4: A family friend. 506 00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:30,519 Speaker 2: Yeah. 507 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,759 Speaker 4: It just hit me. One day I had talked to 508 00:29:33,839 --> 00:29:36,680 Blame Parto with the book and I tell people, and 509 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,039 I sat on this show, but they cut it that 510 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,759 if you want a deep dive into the actual Parkway 511 00:29:42,839 --> 00:29:46,039 murders and the lives of all those kids, and to me, 512 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,039 they'll always be kids, get a special kind of evil 513 00:29:50,119 --> 00:29:54,599 by Blamed Parto. I had already talked, interviewed by him. 514 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,440 I'm not sure. I think had already. I had already 515 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,200 seen he received, sent me off atograph book. Yeah, and 516 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,559 thanked me, which was very nice, and I just thought so. 517 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,599 One day I met Joe and Willisburg for a meal 518 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,319 and I brought the book, I said, and we talked 519 00:30:12,359 --> 00:30:15,440 about this on the show. They cut it. I said, look, Joe, 520 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:17,920 I said, you tell me who did these murders, or 521 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,519 even one of the murders. I said, you'll never have 522 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,839 to buy another drink in your life. He said, you 523 00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:26,519 shouldn't have said that. But anyway, and no, I'm sorry, 524 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,160 a little bit off on the time, and I forget 525 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:30,759 when I gave him the book. But then I met 526 00:30:30,839 --> 00:30:33,039 him in Willisburg. We had lunch one day and he 527 00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:35,000 gave me the book back. He said, I got I 528 00:30:35,039 --> 00:30:39,720 got three suspects. I thought, holy shit, this wat he said, 529 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,640 the FBI, the Virginia State Police, and the US Park Service. 530 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:44,960 I said, thanks a lot. 531 00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:48,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, really no, that was it. 532 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 4: And then I think he contacted I Discovery years ago 533 00:30:53,119 --> 00:30:56,720 and by years ago seventeen eighteen nineteen about doing a show, 534 00:30:56,759 --> 00:31:00,400 but they would not because it was still an active case. 535 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,240 And I understand that completely. You don't have a you 536 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,880 don't at that time, you didn't have a suspect. You 537 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,240 could come on TV and said have you seen this man? 538 00:31:09,359 --> 00:31:12,880 So they wouldn't touch it. And then when Wilmer was 539 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,720 tied to Ragged Island and they were suddenly full speed ahead, 540 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,960 and that's how the show came about. But that's how Joe, 541 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,759 he said, it's a very interesting case. He said, the 542 00:31:23,839 --> 00:31:26,079 problem is all the mistakes that were made, and he's 543 00:31:26,119 --> 00:31:30,599 absolutely correct. They contacted him. He was a Colorado Springs 544 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,240 I think he was a lieutenant when Joan Benet Ramsey 545 00:31:34,359 --> 00:31:38,200 was killed and about he said, about a month after 546 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,079 all that happened, they called him and warned him to 547 00:31:41,079 --> 00:31:43,279 look at he said. Do you think I'm crazy? He said, 548 00:31:43,359 --> 00:31:45,960 You've tried this case in the media for a month. 549 00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:48,079 I'm not touching it with a ten foot pole. 550 00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that case was a disaster from the world. Yeah, 551 00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:58,000 from the workhow Yeah, such a shame. Join us again 552 00:31:58,079 --> 00:32:02,359 next time as we continue our conversation with Danny Plott. 553 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,759 Part two of our conversation on the Colonial Parkway murders 554 00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:11,839 and the American Detective series with Joke Kenda will continue 555 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,480 next week. Kristin Dilly will be back with us very soon. 556 00:32:16,559 --> 00:32:19,640 As always, thanks for joining us here on Mindover Murder. 557 00:32:29,839 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 558 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:34,880 Another Dog Productions. 559 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,799 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilly. 560 00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:41,559 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 561 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 562 00:32:44,799 --> 00:32:48,799 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 563 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram. 564 00:32:52,839 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 565 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,400 murders on Facebook. 566 00:32:57,079 --> 00:32:59,839 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter a 567 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:01,759 Bill Thomas five six. 568 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.