Speaker 1: Hello, and good morning, Amy. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2: Hello, Ero, I'm doing very well. How are you doing?
Speaker 1: Absolutely fantastic. I'm so proud of you for writing this book.
And let me tell you the reason why I'm a
daily writer. I've been daily writing for thirty years. I
believe that we as authors are given stories by way
of our experiences in life. And have you not done
that with this Attack of the Black Rectangles? You've taken
something in your life and you've created a story.
Speaker 2: I have. It's pretty much what I do with all
my books, indeed, and but this one it was really
barbadim right. You know somebody asked me Abues, well, why
did you use The Devil's Arithmetic by Jane Nolan, you know,
as the example of a book you know that's censored,
And I said, because that's the actual book that was censored.
And it was sense of the exact same way in
my child's classroom. And it was a question I wanted
to ask. I still am curious, why those words, why
those passages, and why would you choose to do that
to a book about the Holocaust. There's just so many
layers of questions, but yeah, this is exactly.
Speaker 1: What I do.
Speaker 2: It's what I do pretty much with all my books. Sarah,
And thanks for having me, by the way, nice to
meet you.
Speaker 1: Well, I've been waiting to talk with you because I
want to talk about that censorship, because even as a podcaster,
I do fear that that I'm going to say something,
or one of my guests is going to say something,
but the interpretation is going to be, oh my God,
take take him down. We've got we've got to close
him out.
Speaker 2: Wellero, I mean, you've got to remember that most of
the letters I get that are unkind about my books,
so that say that they should be answered to start
with this phrase, I haven't read the book. But so
that's the first part you need to understand about a
lot of things. And so a lot of people don't
read the books, and most of the there's most of
the book bands you're seeing in America right now are
really being instigated by eleven people. So it's sort of
it's really a sort of more of a fervor of
being doing what you're told versus actual intellectual decision making right,
and so you know, I mean, even Attack of the
Black Rectangles, it's been out for two years now, this now,
this week is it's paperbacks released, but it's already been
censored and it's already been banned, and so it's sort
of and there's no curse words in it, there's nothing.
It's a middle grade book that's wholesome and lovely, but
it's about censorship, and so right there, it's been banned
for that reason. And it's about kids who go and
fight censorship and use their voices for to be able
to say, whoa, whoa, WHOA. I want to be able
to read this book. And and you know the words
you crossed out, we already knew those and why would
you cross them out? Wow? And they had more questions,
you know, because because your children, they're curious. We're so
used to lying to children. And in a way, in
this book it also talks about the other black rectangles
we put on our lives. Like there's Max. He's got
a really abusive, erratic dad, and people put a black
rectangle over that all the time and make excuses for
the guy, say he has some mental problems. Whatever it is.
It's just like no, actually, the guy treats his kid terribly,
Like can we just talk about the truth for once
with young people? Because they already know it.
Speaker 1: That's like trying to teach a kid that it's okay
to lose. You didn't win the baseball game, you didn't
get the trophy. I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to
work harder next year. I mean yeah, because I mean,
we all just want to be abuse your words, be positive,
be positive. But see, what I love about your book
is that I recently spent some time with Martin Luther
King Junior's granddaughter, and she's all about activating the voice.
And is that not what this book is about as well?
Give those people who are hiders, who are dreamers and
opportunity to be and have a different view.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and that's exactly it, and we have to
you know, I once got onto a radio show and
someone said, yeah, let's just cut to the chase. Which
books do you think should be banned? And I said, ooh,
no books, And she was like, come on, you're you
go on this side or this side. I'm like, no,
there is no side. I'm on the side of books
and that's all books. And they're like and then she
threw out like this, I'm really like, you know, she
threw up. She actually threw out Minekong, and I said, oh,
my gosh, I don't think she ever expected anyone to
be so excited to defend this book. But I said, listen,
I grew up in rural Pennsylvania surrounded by hate groups.
I have love, so my head from hate groups. All
I've ever wanted to know is the answer to hate.
That book is the key to the lot. And is
it disgusting, Yes, because it grows me out unbelievably, But
so did getting beaten up by skinheads. I can at
least understand where it came from if I read it.
The whole idea is to read differing views to figure
out who the heck you are. I read books I
didn't like. I read books I didn't agree with. I
read characters I'm like, I don't want to be like
that person. In fact, half the influences in my life
that maybe who I am were meeting people that I
didn't want to be anything like wow, right, And so
you meet those people, you can't avoid those people. I
was born into a family with a few of those people,
and I was like, I don't want to be like them.
I'm going to be like this, I'm going to tell
the truth I'm going to do these things. And that's
how I became who I am, was to be able
to look at the things I didn't like, the things
that hurt my feelings, the things that made me uncomfortable,
and decide to be who I am, and as a
young person. And I made those decisions very young.
Speaker 1: Well, and doesn't that start with you as the author,
because I know there are times in my own published
books that I would go into a paragraph and I'm going,
uh uh, they're not gonna They're not going to see
it the way you do. You might want to pull
back on that. In fact, my very first published book,
before the editor, before they were saying okay, let's let's
do it, I went in there and eliminated every single
dirty word, and if it sounded like a dirty word,
if it looked like a dirty word, because I didn't
want to come across that I was breaking the rules.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, you can't do that now I write.
You know, it's funny really put this. I've been writing
to thirty years. I still got to have other jobs
to pay my bills, and that instead of writing some
paying it does. But it's not one of those things
that people think that it's it's the same and fortunate
it's not. What it is is a beautiful art that
I love being able to do it, So very fortunate
to do it. But when I do it, as sure
as heck. Don't lie to children. If somebody says the
F word, somebody says the F wort now for a kid,
for this group, for middle graders who know nobody says
the F work there, although guess what they do. That's
where we all learned it. We all learned it in
those agents. But that is not going to fly, and
that's cool. But I write. I write mostly My books
are about our adult young adult and adult books are
crossover books. So I have a book coming out in
three weeks. I didn't hold back at all. Heck no,
why would I hold back. I don't lie to children.
I don't lie to children, and I don't misrepresent the
world and life as it is to children. I don't.
I mean, if they're watching television. I haven't watched TV
in like thirty five years, but I turned it on
recently and I saw some of the stuff and I
was like, I can't understand why we're censoring books, like well,
like the television is bad enough. So it's so interesting.
But what it is, it's a control technique. And that's
that's what this is. It's a control technique, and it's really, honestly,
it's based in homophobic, transphobic, and racist and white supremist ideas.
That's really what book censorship is at the moment in
this country. And it's sad because no one's really just
saying that. But again, I don't want to children. It's
just something I don't do for listeners.
Speaker 1: Can we define what a band or a censored book is?
Does that mean that no child can even bring it
in their book bag?
Speaker 2: No? No, Well, at the moment, we talked about when
we say banned books. And it's so interesting because I
know several people who come from countries where they have
and I actually lived in Ireland for a while where
they've banned certain books. Literally naturally you could not actually
buy certain copies of certain books. Here we're talking about
specifically access to books in school libraries, and I want
to talk about why that's important. Now, you've worked on
boards and public libraries, and I am techt sat on
challenges in public libraries and shocked my other board members
by saying no you can't answer that book. It disgusted me,
don't you worry. I was gross right out by the
racism in this one local publication. But I said, you
can't ban it. It's just the free slope. If we
say yes to this, we're going to say yes to
the next thing. But anyway, when it comes to accessing
books and schools, that is the only place most children
can access books. I did not have a public library.
I grew up in the middle of Cornfield in Pennsylvania.
I didn't have a public library within twenty twenty five
minutes from my house. My parents were working very hard.
I was never going to get there. The school library
is the place that can access books. That's where they
can go and look for the mirrors and windows and
the things so that they can look in and go, oh, gosh,
that's what that that's what it's like to be disabled.
Perhaps that's what it's like to be deaf, that's what
it's like to be So there's a nice window into
what other people experience. But they can also find books
that reflect themselves, and that's so important. I have the
one that changed my life in eighth grade. Cineright mixed
me here. It was a Paul's in Dell book and
it was because I could see myself and it's weird.
I read it now, like, really, there's nothing in it
about there's no teenage girls in it, there's nothing. But
it was just a vibe that I was like, oh gosh,
I feel seen, And to feel seen is really important
when we're moving specific books. And that's one of the
problems with this rise right now in book banning. There
are specific books on these lists, there are targeted groups
of people, and so LGBTQ account, you know kids, they're
out none of those. It's like, you can't get rid
of the people by getting rid of their books. All
you can do is make them sadder. I want to do that.
But more importantly, there is most recent ban like this
most recent post has been incredibly racist. I mean just locally.
I mean they've banned those little chapter books about who
is you know, who is this person? Who is that person?
They banned who is Martin Luther King Junior? The man
who is Sonya Sotomayer. So when I look at things
like that, what we're just trying to eradicate history? It
really is based in the ideas of that. I don't
agree with, and you know what, I have ideas they
don't agree with. But the bottom line says it goes
down to the building the rule. I can't tell you
what to read, and you can't tell me what to read.
And I can't tell you what your kids can read,
and you can't tell me what my kids can read.
And therefore that's why we have professionals called librarians and educators. Wow.
And educators are incredibly educated in what they do, and
librarians are incredibly educated in what they do. There are
people who teach the science of reading, and the science
of young people reading is fascinating, but most of us
don't know it. And those people sitting on those school
boards don't know it. That's a shame. You know. These
people have spent their whole lives, you know, truly researching
how young minds take in information. And we're like, we
don't care. I don't like this book. That's not how
it works. It's not how it should work, not in
the country like this or the constitution that absolutely protects
our right to read and a right to access information
at every age.
Speaker 1: Amy, You've got to come back to this show anytime
in the future. The door is always going to be
open for.
Speaker 2: You, Holy Crow. Invite me Arrow and invite me. I will.
I will find me on the internet.
Speaker 1: Will you'd be brilliant today?
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks so much, thanks for having me Row and
you go having an incredible weekends.