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Speaker 1: Hello, and good morning, Amy. How are you doing today?

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Speaker 2: Hello, Ero, I'm doing very well. How are you doing?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely fantastic. I'm so proud of you for writing this book.

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And let me tell you the reason why I'm a

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daily writer. I've been daily writing for thirty years. I

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believe that we as authors are given stories by way

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of our experiences in life. And have you not done

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that with this Attack of the Black Rectangles? You've taken

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something in your life and you've created a story.

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Speaker 2: I have. It's pretty much what I do with all

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my books, indeed, and but this one it was really

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barbadim right. You know somebody asked me Abues, well, why

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did you use The Devil's Arithmetic by Jane Nolan, you know,

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as the example of a book you know that's censored,

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And I said, because that's the actual book that was censored.

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And it was sense of the exact same way in

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my child's classroom. And it was a question I wanted

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to ask. I still am curious, why those words, why

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those passages, and why would you choose to do that

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to a book about the Holocaust. There's just so many

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layers of questions, but yeah, this is exactly.

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Speaker 1: What I do.

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Speaker 2: It's what I do pretty much with all my books. Sarah,

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And thanks for having me, by the way, nice to

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meet you.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've been waiting to talk with you because I

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want to talk about that censorship, because even as a podcaster,

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I do fear that that I'm going to say something,

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or one of my guests is going to say something,

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but the interpretation is going to be, oh my God,

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take take him down. We've got we've got to close

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him out.

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Speaker 2: Wellero, I mean, you've got to remember that most of

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the letters I get that are unkind about my books,

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so that say that they should be answered to start

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with this phrase, I haven't read the book. But so

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that's the first part you need to understand about a

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lot of things. And so a lot of people don't

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read the books, and most of the there's most of

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the book bands you're seeing in America right now are

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really being instigated by eleven people. So it's sort of

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it's really a sort of more of a fervor of

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being doing what you're told versus actual intellectual decision making right,

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and so you know, I mean, even Attack of the

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Black Rectangles, it's been out for two years now, this now,

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this week is it's paperbacks released, but it's already been

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censored and it's already been banned, and so it's sort

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of and there's no curse words in it, there's nothing.

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It's a middle grade book that's wholesome and lovely, but

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it's about censorship, and so right there, it's been banned

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for that reason. And it's about kids who go and

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fight censorship and use their voices for to be able

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to say, whoa, whoa, WHOA. I want to be able

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to read this book. And and you know the words

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you crossed out, we already knew those and why would

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you cross them out? Wow? And they had more questions,

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you know, because because your children, they're curious. We're so

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used to lying to children. And in a way, in

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this book it also talks about the other black rectangles

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we put on our lives. Like there's Max. He's got

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a really abusive, erratic dad, and people put a black

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rectangle over that all the time and make excuses for

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the guy, say he has some mental problems. Whatever it is.

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It's just like no, actually, the guy treats his kid terribly,

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Like can we just talk about the truth for once

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with young people? Because they already know it.

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Speaker 1: That's like trying to teach a kid that it's okay

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to lose. You didn't win the baseball game, you didn't

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get the trophy. I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to

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work harder next year. I mean yeah, because I mean,

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we all just want to be abuse your words, be positive,

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be positive. But see, what I love about your book

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is that I recently spent some time with Martin Luther

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King Junior's granddaughter, and she's all about activating the voice.

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And is that not what this book is about as well?

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Give those people who are hiders, who are dreamers and

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opportunity to be and have a different view.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and that's exactly it, and we have to

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you know, I once got onto a radio show and

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someone said, yeah, let's just cut to the chase. Which

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books do you think should be banned? And I said, ooh,

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no books, And she was like, come on, you're you

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go on this side or this side. I'm like, no,

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there is no side. I'm on the side of books

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and that's all books. And they're like and then she

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threw out like this, I'm really like, you know, she

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threw up. She actually threw out Minekong, and I said, oh,

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my gosh, I don't think she ever expected anyone to

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be so excited to defend this book. But I said, listen,

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I grew up in rural Pennsylvania surrounded by hate groups.

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I have love, so my head from hate groups. All

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I've ever wanted to know is the answer to hate.

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That book is the key to the lot. And is

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it disgusting, Yes, because it grows me out unbelievably, But

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so did getting beaten up by skinheads. I can at

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least understand where it came from if I read it.

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The whole idea is to read differing views to figure

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out who the heck you are. I read books I

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didn't like. I read books I didn't agree with. I

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read characters I'm like, I don't want to be like

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that person. In fact, half the influences in my life

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that maybe who I am were meeting people that I

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didn't want to be anything like wow, right, And so

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you meet those people, you can't avoid those people. I

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was born into a family with a few of those people,

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and I was like, I don't want to be like them.

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I'm going to be like this, I'm going to tell

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the truth I'm going to do these things. And that's

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how I became who I am, was to be able

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to look at the things I didn't like, the things

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that hurt my feelings, the things that made me uncomfortable,

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and decide to be who I am, and as a

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young person. And I made those decisions very young.

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Speaker 1: Well, and doesn't that start with you as the author,

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because I know there are times in my own published

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books that I would go into a paragraph and I'm going,

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uh uh, they're not gonna They're not going to see

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it the way you do. You might want to pull

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back on that. In fact, my very first published book,

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before the editor, before they were saying okay, let's let's

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do it, I went in there and eliminated every single

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dirty word, and if it sounded like a dirty word,

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if it looked like a dirty word, because I didn't

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want to come across that I was breaking the rules.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, you can't do that now I write.

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You know, it's funny really put this. I've been writing

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to thirty years. I still got to have other jobs

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to pay my bills, and that instead of writing some

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paying it does. But it's not one of those things

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that people think that it's it's the same and fortunate

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it's not. What it is is a beautiful art that

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I love being able to do it, So very fortunate

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to do it. But when I do it, as sure

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as heck. Don't lie to children. If somebody says the

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F word, somebody says the F wort now for a kid,

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for this group, for middle graders who know nobody says

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the F work there, although guess what they do. That's

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where we all learned it. We all learned it in

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those agents. But that is not going to fly, and

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that's cool. But I write. I write mostly My books

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are about our adult young adult and adult books are

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crossover books. So I have a book coming out in

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three weeks. I didn't hold back at all. Heck no,

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why would I hold back. I don't lie to children.

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I don't lie to children, and I don't misrepresent the

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world and life as it is to children. I don't.

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I mean, if they're watching television. I haven't watched TV

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in like thirty five years, but I turned it on

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recently and I saw some of the stuff and I

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was like, I can't understand why we're censoring books, like well,

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like the television is bad enough. So it's so interesting.

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But what it is, it's a control technique. And that's

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that's what this is. It's a control technique, and it's really, honestly,

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it's based in homophobic, transphobic, and racist and white supremist ideas.

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That's really what book censorship is at the moment in

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this country. And it's sad because no one's really just

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saying that. But again, I don't want to children. It's

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just something I don't do for listeners.

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Speaker 1: Can we define what a band or a censored book is?

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Does that mean that no child can even bring it

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in their book bag?

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Speaker 2: No? No, Well, at the moment, we talked about when

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we say banned books. And it's so interesting because I

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know several people who come from countries where they have

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and I actually lived in Ireland for a while where

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they've banned certain books. Literally naturally you could not actually

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buy certain copies of certain books. Here we're talking about

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specifically access to books in school libraries, and I want

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to talk about why that's important. Now, you've worked on

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boards and public libraries, and I am techt sat on

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challenges in public libraries and shocked my other board members

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by saying no you can't answer that book. It disgusted me,

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don't you worry. I was gross right out by the

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racism in this one local publication. But I said, you

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can't ban it. It's just the free slope. If we

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say yes to this, we're going to say yes to

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the next thing. But anyway, when it comes to accessing

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books and schools, that is the only place most children

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can access books. I did not have a public library.

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I grew up in the middle of Cornfield in Pennsylvania.

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I didn't have a public library within twenty twenty five

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minutes from my house. My parents were working very hard.

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I was never going to get there. The school library

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is the place that can access books. That's where they

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can go and look for the mirrors and windows and

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the things so that they can look in and go, oh, gosh,

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that's what that that's what it's like to be disabled.

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Perhaps that's what it's like to be deaf, that's what

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it's like to be So there's a nice window into

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what other people experience. But they can also find books

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that reflect themselves, and that's so important. I have the

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one that changed my life in eighth grade. Cineright mixed

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me here. It was a Paul's in Dell book and

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it was because I could see myself and it's weird.

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I read it now, like, really, there's nothing in it

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about there's no teenage girls in it, there's nothing. But

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it was just a vibe that I was like, oh gosh,

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I feel seen, And to feel seen is really important

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when we're moving specific books. And that's one of the

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problems with this rise right now in book banning. There

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are specific books on these lists, there are targeted groups

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of people, and so LGBTQ account, you know kids, they're

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out none of those. It's like, you can't get rid

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of the people by getting rid of their books. All

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you can do is make them sadder. I want to do that.

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But more importantly, there is most recent ban like this

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most recent post has been incredibly racist. I mean just locally.

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I mean they've banned those little chapter books about who

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is you know, who is this person? Who is that person?

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They banned who is Martin Luther King Junior? The man

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who is Sonya Sotomayer. So when I look at things

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like that, what we're just trying to eradicate history? It

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really is based in the ideas of that. I don't

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agree with, and you know what, I have ideas they

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don't agree with. But the bottom line says it goes

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down to the building the rule. I can't tell you

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what to read, and you can't tell me what to read.

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And I can't tell you what your kids can read,

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and you can't tell me what my kids can read.

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And therefore that's why we have professionals called librarians and educators. Wow.

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And educators are incredibly educated in what they do, and

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librarians are incredibly educated in what they do. There are

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people who teach the science of reading, and the science

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of young people reading is fascinating, but most of us

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don't know it. And those people sitting on those school

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boards don't know it. That's a shame. You know. These

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people have spent their whole lives, you know, truly researching

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how young minds take in information. And we're like, we

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don't care. I don't like this book. That's not how

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it works. It's not how it should work, not in

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the country like this or the constitution that absolutely protects

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our right to read and a right to access information

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at every age.

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Speaker 1: Amy, You've got to come back to this show anytime

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in the future. The door is always going to be

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open for.

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Speaker 2: You, Holy Crow. Invite me Arrow and invite me. I will.

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I will find me on the internet.

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Speaker 1: Will you'd be brilliant today?

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Speaker 2: Okay, thanks so much, thanks for having me Row and

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you go having an incredible weekends.