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Speaker 8: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 8: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 8: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 8: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 8: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 8: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 9: Good Evening. They thought about their evil fantasy for months,
Speaker 9: then wound up. Like clockwork toys, they acted. In April
Speaker 9: nineteen ninety seven, pretty twenty two year old Jayson Gillinski
Speaker 9: stopped her car at a red light in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
Speaker 9: She had no idea that the two young men looking
Speaker 9: at her from the car next to hers would, in
Speaker 9: that moment decide she would be their target for unspeakable horrors.
Speaker 9: George Wolt and Lucas Salmon were an unlikely pair of
Speaker 9: best friends, much less killers. Walt was a fast talking,
Speaker 9: well dressed ladies man who boasted of his sexual conquest.
Speaker 9: Salmon was deeply religious and a social misfit. Obsessed with
Speaker 9: losing his virginity. Walt was the leader, Samon his willing follower,
Speaker 9: but neither had been in serious trouble with the law. However,
Speaker 9: inspired by the cult movie A Clockwork Orange with its
Speaker 9: dystopian violence, they fantasized for months what it would be
Speaker 9: like to abduct, rape, torture, and murder a woman. Then,
Speaker 9: aroused by watching ultra violent pornography, they decided to act
Speaker 9: upon their evil thoughts. Revised in Updated with a new
Speaker 9: afterword from the author, A Clockwork Murder recounts the steps
Speaker 9: that led to an unthinkable crime and its impact on
Speaker 9: a community, as well as the friends and especially the
Speaker 9: parents of an innocent young woman who paid with her
Speaker 9: life for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Speaker 9: From the True Crime Library of New York Times bestselling
Speaker 9: author Steve Jackson, comes A Clockwork Murder the night a
Speaker 9: twisted fantasy became a demented reality, with my special guest,
Speaker 9: journalist and author and publisher Steve Jackson. Welcome back to
Speaker 9: the program. Thank you very much for greeting this interview.
Speaker 9: Steve Jackson.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Dan. It's always a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 9: It's always a pleasure having you always a pleasure. Let's
Speaker 9: get to why in particular you thought at the time
Speaker 9: and how you came to write a clockwork murder.
Speaker 2: Actually, I had been working on a series of stories
Speaker 2: about the death penalty and in Colorado, which was going through
Speaker 2: a number of permutations at that time, and had been
Speaker 2: from all the you know, different types of juries, whether
Speaker 2: judges decide. So I originally was looking at the story,
Speaker 2: this story as part of of that history of the
Speaker 2: death penalty. I was doing this for a a news
Speaker 2: magazine UH in Colorado, and and this case, the these
Speaker 2: two murder trials of of UH Lucas Salmon and George
Speaker 2: Wolt for the murder of J. C. Glinski UH were
Speaker 2: going through various permutations at that time of in the process,
Speaker 2: and and it was it was a fairly new version
Speaker 2: of the death penalty, and this was a These were
Speaker 2: cases in which judges would be used to determine whether defendants,
Speaker 2: if he has found guilty, would be sentenced to death.
Speaker 2: Since then, the judge panels have been eliminated and it's
Speaker 2: back to the jury, a regular jury of your peers
Speaker 2: making that decision. But that's kind of how I found
Speaker 2: out about the trial or this case in particular, and
Speaker 2: then as I started to look into it, you know,
Speaker 2: it was just a really unusual case. It was one
Speaker 2: of those where you say, you know, if either one
Speaker 2: of these guys hadn't met the other guy or was
Speaker 2: under was influenced by the other guy, would this have
Speaker 2: ever happened? Would Jaysne still be alive? So you know
Speaker 2: that it it struck me in that in that regard
Speaker 2: and just sort of how to not particularly you know,
Speaker 2: heinous individuals or not somebody you would have thought would
Speaker 2: be involved in a murder, especially a murder of this sort.
Speaker 2: You know what happened in their thought processes and how
Speaker 2: they got to that point.
Speaker 9: Right now, You talked very early in the book about
Speaker 9: what you found out about the upbringing of George Wolt
Speaker 9: and you say he was born in nineteen seventy six
Speaker 9: in South Korea. His father's Bill, father Bill a at
Speaker 9: an army base, and his mother was South Korean and
Speaker 9: her name was Song. Who now tell us just a
Speaker 9: little bit about his early life, what you found about
Speaker 9: growing up on these army bases and how they wound
Speaker 9: up and when in the Colorado Army base at Fort Carson,
Speaker 9: Fort Cason.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Fort Carson is correct. Well, it's one of those
Speaker 2: things where you know, as a an overseas marriage, George's mom,
Speaker 2: dad married his mom obviously she was Korean, and then
Speaker 2: they as army families do they they transferred back to
Speaker 2: the States and eventually he ended up at Fort car
Speaker 2: Carson Army Base, which is one of our country's larger
Speaker 2: army bases. And George's early upbringing, you know, there's there's
Speaker 2: minor incidents. There's a point where he lost part of
Speaker 2: a finger in a in an accident. He was really
Speaker 2: a doated on by his mom. He you know she
Speaker 2: but in kind of a strange way, he was both
Speaker 2: cherished and at the same time constantly under her, you know,
Speaker 2: sit up straight and make sure your hair is combed
Speaker 2: and uh, you know, clean under your fingernails and uh
Speaker 2: and she could be she has appears to have had
Speaker 2: some mental illness issues herself, and some of this, you know,
Speaker 2: would later come out with George and sort of his
Speaker 2: treatment of women.
Speaker 9: You also talk about early sort of diagnosis with obsession
Speaker 9: with his appearance, like you had mentioned, but all those
Speaker 9: band aids and then a banding on a left finger
Speaker 9: had to be matched with a band aid on the
Speaker 9: right finger. So some odd and peculiar behavior at a
Speaker 9: young age was exhibited, wasn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he definitely had some obsessive, compulsive habits, as you
Speaker 2: noted the you know, if he had a band aid
Speaker 2: over on on one hand, he had to have a
Speaker 2: matching band aid on the other. And sometimes he wore
Speaker 2: band aids just for the heck of wearing band aids.
Speaker 2: So he and he he was obsessive about his his appearance.
Speaker 2: Part of this I think coming directly from his mom.
Speaker 2: But the the sort of thing, you know, no hair
Speaker 2: out of place, and uh, you know, a lot of
Speaker 2: looking in the mirror type things and uh, and if
Speaker 2: he wasn't perfect, his mom would let him know that,
Speaker 2: you know, he was wasn't looking perfect. So I think
Speaker 2: a lot of what went on with George has to
Speaker 2: do with his mom and his treatment there. You know,
Speaker 2: his father was also something of an alcoholic, so he
Speaker 2: didn't contribute to as you as you might want with
Speaker 2: a young child toward his upbringing. So it's it's one
Speaker 2: of those things where you know, we're always talking about this,
Speaker 2: you know, is an environment is it? Uh? Is it hereditary?
Speaker 7: Is it a.
Speaker 2: Combination of the two. And you know there there always
Speaker 2: seems to be to me, always seems to be some
Speaker 2: combinations here.
Speaker 9: You talk about early on, according to friends, that he
Speaker 9: considered women to be bitches and good only for sex,
Speaker 9: and he didn't seem to have a necessary respect from
Speaker 9: his mother. In fact, this will it be exhibited later
Speaker 9: with some of his friends, especially with Salmon, with Lucas Salmon,
Speaker 9: that he would provoke and ridicule his mother in front
Speaker 9: of friends. So he had no respect for women at
Speaker 9: an early age, and he expressed that to people around them,
Speaker 9: didn't he.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think the tables kind of turned once he
Speaker 2: hit puberty. You know, at first the mom was the
Speaker 2: I guess the dominant person in that relationship and her
Speaker 2: treatment of him. But as he got older, he sort
Speaker 2: of turned it around and she found her herself at
Speaker 2: the butt of you know, these issues, and so it's
Speaker 2: it's it's one of those things where you know, did
Speaker 2: she set this in motion and only to pay for
Speaker 2: it herself. But but George certainly had a low opinion
Speaker 2: of women. Uh, he could be charming and often actually
Speaker 2: was very charming to their faces, but he turned around
Speaker 2: and talked to his friends about you know, there they
Speaker 2: were like, as you said, good for one thing, good
Speaker 2: for sex, it's all about their looks. It was all
Speaker 2: about compliance with him. Uh, he was into rougher sex acts.
Speaker 2: And as he started to get into pornography and that
Speaker 2: sort of thing, he he enjoyed more violent pornography. So
Speaker 2: it's it's again one of those things that was this
Speaker 2: all hereditary or did some of this come from a
Speaker 2: something a learned behavior or something that he held against
Speaker 2: his mother and then took out on on other women.
Speaker 9: You also write about that he was prone to exaggerating
Speaker 9: and lying about things, that he was a contract killer
Speaker 9: and a martial arts expert when he was talking to
Speaker 9: these women too, So sort of a yeah.
Speaker 2: He's always making himself bigger than he was. You know,
Speaker 2: he obviously had low self esteem. Anybody who you know,
Speaker 2: feels the constant need to brag and lie about, you know,
Speaker 2: their accomplishments and and that sort of thing. It's it's
Speaker 2: it's sort of the you know, somebody who's putting up
Speaker 2: a facade of ultra manliness and you know, tough guy
Speaker 2: and ladies man and glib and all that sort of thing,
Speaker 2: but you kind of wonder what's hiding behind that.
Speaker 9: Right now, you talk about Lucas Salmon and George Wolt
Speaker 9: meeting in nineteen ninety four at a telemarketing firm. We talked,
Speaker 9: we just spoke in the introduction about Lucas Salmon being
Speaker 9: much different than George Wolt completely, So tell us about
Speaker 9: Lucas Salmon and his completely different upbringing.
Speaker 2: Well, Lucas was he was raised in a very very
Speaker 2: Christian family, focus on the family. So it's a very
Speaker 2: conservative Christian upbringing, with the a lot of what you
Speaker 2: should and shouldn't dos, and what's good, what's bad, and
Speaker 2: that sort of thing. Unfortunately, of course, as you know
Speaker 2: from the story that there were some issues with his
Speaker 2: father not quite living up to some of those standards
Speaker 2: and having affairs, including with babysitters and these sorts of
Speaker 2: things that would come out later. But so Lucas was
Speaker 2: raised in a very sheltered sort of family. They didn't
Speaker 2: watch much television, they were always going to church. He
Speaker 2: was expected to, you know, remain a virgin, tell marriage
Speaker 2: and all these sorts of things.
Speaker 9: Now, these two again unlikely people, this unlikely pair, met
Speaker 9: at this little telemarketing firm in nineteen eighty four, as
Speaker 9: you write, So tell us about this meeting they have,
Speaker 9: and what do they have in common, and why do
Speaker 9: they become fast friends?
Speaker 2: Well, at first Lucas didn't like George. George, they're both
Speaker 2: working at this place. George is the you know, as
Speaker 2: we have heard, he's the sort of the braggarts and
Speaker 2: boasting and talking about what a great lady's man he is,
Speaker 2: and and Lucas is reserved and sort of shy. He's
Speaker 2: at this point he's hardly even been on a date,
Speaker 2: much less he's he's still a virgin and uh and
Speaker 2: that heats at him. But he also is trying to
Speaker 2: be faithful to his faith, I guess. But George, so,
Speaker 2: George of course targets you know, the we weak people.
Speaker 2: So one of the people he he targets is Lucas
Speaker 2: and teases him, uh a mercifully talks about his lack
Speaker 2: of women and sexual prowess and these sorts of things.
Speaker 2: And even even as they become friends, which is sort
Speaker 2: of an odd thing in itself, is that George, now
Speaker 2: George picks Lucas. And this is fairly typical sociopathic behavior
Speaker 2: in that sociopaths often want to have some sort of
Speaker 2: weaker person they can get to do their will.
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Speaker 2: You see this often, and you know pair pair criminals
Speaker 2: and stuff. That one is the uh, the more dominant
Speaker 2: of the two basically is able to get the other
Speaker 2: to do his bidding and to or to at least,
Speaker 2: you know, sort of lend his lend some courage to
Speaker 2: him something that they the the one, the potential sociopath
Speaker 2: may not have the courage to do on his own,
Speaker 2: he might find if he if he has someone to
Speaker 2: to do it with him. So George picks Lucas and
Speaker 2: and uh, you know kind of nurtures him along as, oh,
Speaker 2: you're my best friend. Though every once in a while
Speaker 2: he'll he'll torment Lucas with them, I'm leaving you. We're
Speaker 2: not friends anymore. So he liked to do that to him.
Speaker 2: And uh, Lucas, on the other hand, is Joe Org
Speaker 2: is sort of the guy he wishes he could be, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, fast talking ladies man, uh sure of himself.
Speaker 2: Lucas sort of buys into George's lies about being a
Speaker 2: karate experts and and tough and and all these sorts
Speaker 2: of things. And and so you have Lucas the kind
Speaker 2: of shy uh ultra Christian person who is young man
Speaker 2: who is trying to find his way in the world.
Speaker 2: Is has some issues as far as, uh just not
Speaker 2: being being able to hold much of a conversation, especially
Speaker 2: with women. And here's this guy who's kind of everything
Speaker 2: he wants to be. So you know, when this guy
Speaker 2: starts treating him nice, he Lucas uh just sort of
Speaker 2: blombs onto that, and uh, he's pretty soon. George is
Speaker 2: his best friend and Lucas is, or at least George
Speaker 2: says Lucas is his best friend, and they're together all
Speaker 2: the time. And that's becomes the genesis of this eventual fantasy.
Speaker 9: During this time, Walt being this ladies man right from
Speaker 9: the very beginning, has various girlfriends and pregnating them. He
Speaker 9: has Becky and his son, but she finds out that
Speaker 9: he's fooling around. So whenever Lucas Salmon comes to visit,
Speaker 9: he stays with them. He stays with Walt and whatever
Speaker 9: girlfriend he's with, because he goes through a succession of
Speaker 9: women Becky Karen. So what he does is that Lucas
Speaker 9: goes back to Christian College in southern California each fall.
Speaker 9: So this is a process that doesn't happen very quickly,
Speaker 9: as you explained in the book, goes over a period
Speaker 9: of a few years, for a couple of years of
Speaker 9: him grooming this guy, working on him to the point
Speaker 9: where you say that this person at once was known
Speaker 9: to not curse and had a certain behavior. What was
Speaker 9: the state of him in the fall of ninety five
Speaker 9: or before ninety five, And the difference that people that
Speaker 9: knew Lucas well noticed after staying with George Walton, the
Speaker 9: woman he was with at the time, Well, there's.
Speaker 2: There was definitely a change in the behavior. They noticed
Speaker 2: that all of a sudden, Lucas, who, as you noted,
Speaker 2: didn't curse or drink or or talk ludeley about women,
Speaker 2: Suddenly that's what he's doing. He's cursing and drinking and
Speaker 2: you know, staring ludely at women, making suggestives remarks. He's
Speaker 2: basically emulating what he thinks George woltz Uh is and
Speaker 2: and so this it has been a long process of
Speaker 2: glooming George getting Lucas a little bit farther down the road.
Speaker 2: If if the end of this road is is where
Speaker 2: this book ends up, George kind of moves him along
Speaker 2: the road slowly. There are these periods of time when
Speaker 2: Lucas has gone out of town and George Uh actually
Speaker 2: shifts his attention to others, but he other people are
Speaker 2: are stronger. They may be friends with George for a while,
Speaker 2: but then sort of his his weirdness and his fantasies
Speaker 2: and some of the things he starts talking about. Eventually
Speaker 2: a normal person or or somebody with some sorts of
Speaker 2: standards isn't going to go farther than that. But so George,
Speaker 2: who would repeatedly return back to When Lucas would return,
Speaker 2: George would turn his attentions back to Lucas as this
Speaker 2: one person who he kept being able to manipulate and
Speaker 2: move a little bit farther down that dark road.
Speaker 9: You give a fantastic example of the you know, the
Speaker 9: future in this book where George Wolt. When Salmon returns
Speaker 9: to school in southern California in the fall ninety five,
Speaker 9: he turns to a new friend named James Wilson. Tell
Speaker 9: us what he says to James Wilson, his new friend,
Speaker 9: and tell us the kind of movies that he introduces
Speaker 9: him to, and what at least he thinks that George
Speaker 9: is suggesting to him to do well.
Speaker 2: They George tries most of the same sorts of things
Speaker 2: on all of these friends. You know, he starts watching porns,
Speaker 2: talks about women, wants to go out and meet other women,
Speaker 2: and then the pornography increasingly becomes more violent type of pornography,
Speaker 2: and and George starts talking about a fantasy of Hey,
Speaker 2: let's you know. Some of it sounds sort of you know,
Speaker 2: I don't I wouldn't classify it as normal, but it's
Speaker 2: the you know, they're driving by, they see some woman
Speaker 2: and George would say something like, hey, let's go raper
Speaker 2: and the other guy would look at him kind of
Speaker 2: what are you saying, and George would laugh it off
Speaker 2: or it's just joking type stuff. And then they get
Speaker 2: to one point where I believe the reference you're talking
Speaker 2: about is they're actually up in the mountains and they
Speaker 2: see a couple in a car parks at a at
Speaker 2: a overlook up in the mountains above Colorado Springs, and
Speaker 2: George suggests that they they stop, and George suggests that
Speaker 2: they actually kill the the young man and rape the
Speaker 2: woman and kill her. And he goes so far as
Speaker 2: to pick up some large rocks and put him in
Speaker 2: his car. Uh. You know, so this is kind of
Speaker 2: one step farther along that line. But this, but James
Speaker 2: Wilson is you know, at this point, he's you know, okay,
Speaker 2: this isn't this isn't funny anymore, even if it, you know,
Speaker 2: ever was funny, But this, this is particular getting a
Speaker 2: little bit weird. And that sort of where that point
Speaker 2: where the normal person with normal uh standards and morals
Speaker 2: and uh strong enough ego themselves uh sort of gets
Speaker 2: to that you know, okay, this is this is enough.
Speaker 2: I've I've heard enough, and and you're weird and in fact,
Speaker 2: James warned his girlfriend and has told his girlfriend's sister,
Speaker 2: I believe to UH to you know, stay away from
Speaker 2: uh George, that that there was something wrong with him.
Speaker 2: And even though George would oh, I didn't really mean it.
Speaker 2: I was just laughing at off to see how you'd react.
Speaker 2: What George is doing, He's seeing how these other guys,
Speaker 2: these other friends react to this, and those who eventually,
Speaker 2: you know, say I don't want anything more to do
Speaker 2: with you, You're too weird, or you know, I don't
Speaker 2: want to hear you talk about that anymore. He he
Speaker 2: lets them go. They're they're not what he needs to
Speaker 2: accomplish what he has in mind.
Speaker 9: Tell us about it's very fascinating about the attempts by
Speaker 9: George to set up Lucas Salmon with various women. And
Speaker 9: what were the results? He taught them for being a virgin,
Speaker 9: So what are the results and how does he set
Speaker 9: up him with women again? What are the results?
Speaker 2: Well, he actually with his his wife he uh, with
Speaker 2: whom he has a child. She has some friends and
Speaker 2: you know they're they're going to get Lucas laid. I
Speaker 2: guess it would be the way to put it, and
Speaker 2: and so they actually get some young women over there
Speaker 2: and introduce them with the idea that, uh, these girls
Speaker 2: are are willing tex partners. And in fact, it's that
Speaker 2: becomes weird just in the that George and his girlfriend
Speaker 2: or wife uh sort of hint that why don't we
Speaker 2: all have a you know, a foursome in here sort
Speaker 2: of thing going on or you know, you got I
Speaker 2: can go next door and and or in the next
Speaker 2: bedroom and and but Lucas uh backs out of all
Speaker 2: these attempts. I mean, Lucas wants something to happen, but
Speaker 2: in the end, for quite a while he is he's
Speaker 2: just too shy or unsure of himself, or he comes
Speaker 2: up with excuses on why he can't participate, and these
Speaker 2: other young women go home disappointed, I guess. And but
Speaker 2: so Lucas remains a virgin. And so George's initial attempts
Speaker 2: to uh get him to secure a sexual partner for Lucas,
Speaker 2: uh don't work. He tries this several times before, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's it just doesn't work.
Speaker 9: You talk about In ninety six, wolt is with a
Speaker 9: woman named Laurie and she finds out he's seeing another woman.
Speaker 9: He leaves Laurie, she attempts suicide, and Lucas actually prevents it,
Speaker 9: prevents this suicide. He and eventually George moves in with
Speaker 9: another woman named Bonnie. Just tell us a little bit
Speaker 9: about this, because this is again indicative of his other
Speaker 9: things that he does in his behavior in general.
Speaker 2: Well, yes, when Lucas was alarmed by the one young
Speaker 2: woman's I she sent some message or left a telephone
Speaker 2: message that he suspected she may try to commit suicide,
Speaker 2: and actually talk to his dad into going over there,
Speaker 2: and they were able to actually save her life. And
Speaker 2: in some ways, this is uh, you know, the the
Speaker 2: the sad part about uh Lucas Salmon for whatever he
Speaker 2: did later and and justly uh paid the price for
Speaker 2: this is this is sort of the you see this
Speaker 2: young man who is tormented, sort of you know, that
Speaker 2: angel on one side and that devil on the other
Speaker 2: side talking to him that he could, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: be a caring, sympathetic individual who you know, read that
Speaker 2: something was wrong here and and uh and took steps
Speaker 2: to prevent it and therefore saved this young woman's life.
Speaker 2: And there were there are other instances of Lucas Salmon
Speaker 2: doing nice things for for people, and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: it's it's it's sort of where you know, the whatever,
Speaker 2: whatever it is out there is wrestling for his soul
Speaker 2: during this period of time leading up to his fantasy
Speaker 2: with George that they act on.
Speaker 9: In keeping with that as well, you say that Lucas
Speaker 9: Salmon is really reconsidering and re examining the friendship he
Speaker 9: has with George Walt as he heads back to school
Speaker 9: for in ninety seven, and it really is again really considering,
Speaker 9: reconsidering this, this this friendship. But then we have George
Speaker 9: Walt agreeing to marry Bonnie, planning to marry Bonnie, and
Speaker 9: asked his friend, which again his friend has been spooked,
Speaker 9: this Wilson, to be his best man. So tell us
Speaker 9: how it is that Lucas Salmon gets converted once again
Speaker 9: by the manipulative of George Walt.
Speaker 2: Most about that, well, then George's turned down for by
Speaker 2: James as for the best man. George turns around and
Speaker 2: and asked Lucas Salmon to be his best man. You know,
Speaker 2: you're telling him you're my best friend, and please do
Speaker 2: this for me, and and all these sorts of things,
Speaker 2: and and at that period of time, you're You're right,
Speaker 2: Lucas was sort of at that that edge, which ways
Speaker 2: is he going to go? He he knew that George
Speaker 2: was trouble and that this was his friendship with him
Speaker 2: was leading down a dark path here and at some
Speaker 2: point there might not be any turning back. But at
Speaker 2: the same time, he he's still desperately wanted to be
Speaker 2: like George, and he wanted George's friendship. He was sort
Speaker 2: of like the dog that you know, gets beat by
Speaker 2: the master, but still when the master says a nice word,
Speaker 2: comes wagging his tail. And that was sort of Lucas
Speaker 2: sam and his that he recognizes the danger that George
Speaker 2: presents and you know, knows he should get away from him.
Speaker 2: But then George calls and tells him he's his best
Speaker 2: friend forever and wants him to be the best man
Speaker 2: at his wedding, and that wins Lucas over again.
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Speaker 9: You talk about in the book that in January nineteen
Speaker 9: ninety seven he goes back to school and he is
Speaker 9: expelled for academic deficiencies. So what happens at school and
Speaker 9: where does he return.
Speaker 2: To Well, I think this is a period of time.
Speaker 2: I Lucas was a pretty good student. He was, it's uh,
Speaker 2: brilliant by any means, But I think up to that point,
Speaker 2: you know, he worked pretty hard at it and and
Speaker 2: did his studies and was, you know, just sort of
Speaker 2: a nonentity in school. Not not many people knew much
Speaker 2: about him other than he was kind of quiet, and
Speaker 2: most of that most people actually thought he was fairly nice.
Speaker 2: And uh. But you know, it's it's this, it's this
Speaker 2: behavioral change. At the same time, his behavior is changing
Speaker 2: in the things that we've noticed, such as his treatment
Speaker 2: of women or how he talks about them anyway, and
Speaker 2: his cursing and his the drinking, and his grades also
Speaker 2: start to fail. And you know, this is this is
Speaker 2: where he is losing the battle for uh, for his soul,
Speaker 2: I guess, and he is, you know, he is. I
Speaker 2: don't know if he's giving up on life, but he's
Speaker 2: certainly not caring about the thing the normal young man
Speaker 2: who is looking forward to the future cares about.
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Speaker 9: dot Com promo code true. Now, Steve, we talked about
Speaker 9: all of the circumstances and situations and all of the
Speaker 9: particular forces that were in play when these two people
Speaker 9: finally got back together with Bonnie living with Walt's wife, Bonnie,
Speaker 9: who's crucial to this story, as we'll see in a
Speaker 9: few minutes. Let's talk about the A Clockwork Orange which
Speaker 9: this book is based around. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 9: about why this movie was important to George Wolt, and
Speaker 9: what was it about the movie that was important to
Speaker 9: George Wolt and what would he want to try to
Speaker 9: express or convey to Lucas about this movie.
Speaker 2: Well, the movie at Clockwork Orange basically is about some
Speaker 2: young men who live in a sort of you know,
Speaker 2: it's hard to tell what age as far as what
Speaker 2: year it is in the future, slightly in the future current,
Speaker 2: but it's sort of a dystopian year era in in Britain. Uh,
Speaker 2: they're British and they basically they are they sort of
Speaker 2: they engage in violence, what they call ultra violence and
Speaker 2: and rape and these sorts of things, and it's sort
Speaker 2: of a the very it's there. It's a studying anti
Speaker 2: social behavior by the young, but it's told in the
Speaker 2: almost a it's almost like a dream, a bad dream.
Speaker 2: There are there's a lot of symbolism and a lot
Speaker 2: of odd things that happen that are have a sort
Speaker 2: of surreal feel to them. In the movie, there's there's
Speaker 2: quite a bit of violence. There's a couple of different
Speaker 2: rape scenes, and there's this discussion of of what makes
Speaker 2: you so so violence and so prone to criminality and uh,
Speaker 2: it sort of discusses, you know, are you born with
Speaker 2: a devil in you? Or do you is this something
Speaker 2: you you learned from society? Something that you pick up
Speaker 2: along the way, so as it it becomes a favorite
Speaker 2: of George. It's it's got that the violence, and it's
Speaker 2: in the sexual violence and the sort of you know,
Speaker 2: living a fantasy aspects to this, and and it becomes
Speaker 2: part of his fantasy that you know, wouldn't it be
Speaker 2: fun to to rape? And and then it eventually evolves
Speaker 2: to rape and murder a young woman and and and
Speaker 2: that's he kind of picks it up from uh the movie.
Speaker 2: You know. I'm I'm always uh reluctant to say, well,
Speaker 2: it's this movie's fault or this this game's fault or
Speaker 2: this thing. You know. I think people have a if
Speaker 2: possibly a tendency. Whether it's so again we returned to
Speaker 2: the is it hereditary or is it this a learned tendency?
Speaker 2: But people have tendencies and and then possibly something like
Speaker 2: that they may glom onto something like a violent, sexually
Speaker 2: violent film as uh, you know it it enhances the
Speaker 2: fantasies that they already have. It's it's sort of not
Speaker 2: giving permissions so much as as perhaps just a sort
Speaker 2: of blueprint and a you know, uh thinking about the world.
Speaker 2: Here's here's the world telling me that you know, at
Speaker 2: least in this weird sort of way that you know
Speaker 2: other people think the same way I do. Obviously, this
Speaker 2: this film exists. So but George starts to use this
Speaker 2: film with Lucas as sort of a hey, uh, it's
Speaker 2: in a way like using the violent pornography to to
Speaker 2: break down his inhibitions, you know. They he gets them
Speaker 2: to watch the film and then talks about wouldn't it
Speaker 2: be fun to go out and do a little ultra
Speaker 2: violence as they talked about in the in the movie,
Speaker 2: or hey, let's rape her and and it and it
Speaker 2: kind of it's it's it's almost a tool he uses
Speaker 2: to further break down Lucas's inhibitions and to get him
Speaker 2: to join him in his fantasy.
Speaker 9: Now you talk about the the situation at the time,
Speaker 9: we're talking about he got there in January or after January,
Speaker 9: and now we're talking about April and Bonnie's expecting they
Speaker 9: are they have been married, but regardless of the impending
Speaker 9: pregnancy and birth of the child, George and Vonnie, he
Speaker 9: doesn't care. And he's going out every day with Lucas
Speaker 9: and her, going out almost every night and partying and
Speaker 9: drinking and watching these movies and definitely hanging out with
Speaker 9: each other. So he's recruiting him to do what his
Speaker 9: fantasy has been. And we talk, and you talk about
Speaker 9: April twenty ninth, nineteen ninety seven, Lucas had been fired
Speaker 9: from his father's company for making sexually inappropriate comments crude language.
Speaker 9: Yet at the same time he would drive around with
Speaker 9: a thunderbird with a bible in there and chain smoke
Speaker 9: and drink alcohol. Tell us about April twenty ninth, nineteen
Speaker 9: ninety seven, and Amber Gonzalez.
Speaker 2: Well, the by this time, as you noted that they've
Speaker 2: been going out a lot and going to movies and
Speaker 2: not movies, going to bars and drinking. And as they do,
Speaker 2: you know, George's you know, kind of nudging Lucas, and
Speaker 2: you know when a young woman would in spot a
Speaker 2: young woman and say, you know, maybe we should follow
Speaker 2: her and rape her. And then it becomes what they
Speaker 2: start calling a game where they're both stort participating. By
Speaker 2: by this time, Lucas is starting to get into the game.
Speaker 2: He he's thinking it's uh, you know, he's he's obviously uh,
Speaker 2: sexually aroused by all of this himself. By now, they're
Speaker 2: sexually aroused but frustrated and and he's getting into the
Speaker 2: same game. You know. They they follow different people around,
Speaker 2: they discuss whether they should abduct somebody. But up to
Speaker 2: this point, it's all kind of a lot of talk
Speaker 2: and there's there's not that much action. They you know,
Speaker 2: they are they are moving towards this you and you know,
Speaker 2: in hindsight look looking back at it, you can see, uh,
Speaker 2: them driving down this road. But anyway, they they the
Speaker 2: incident you're talking about. There's an area in Coloro Springs
Speaker 2: called Garden of the Gods. It's a very beautiful park.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of winding roads and a lot of
Speaker 2: joggers go in there and and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: And so one day that the George and Lucas are
Speaker 2: driving through the park and they go past a young
Speaker 2: woman who is jogging and on one of the roads,
Speaker 2: and they sort of now they're kind of at this
Speaker 2: point they are looking for a victim. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: still kind of exciting and are we really going to
Speaker 2: go through with this? And what are we going to do?
Speaker 2: And you know that point. But so they turn around
Speaker 2: and they actually go to follow her. And now as
Speaker 2: they're passing her, they George bumps her with the car
Speaker 2: and knocks her down, and they they jump out of
Speaker 2: the car and they go back, and the intention is
Speaker 2: to put her in the car and take her somewhere
Speaker 2: and rape her. But they are still at that sort
Speaker 2: of if there's like a percent percentages in uh in
Speaker 2: their actions, you know, when they're talking, they're kind of
Speaker 2: at fifty percent. They start stalking somebody, there are seventy
Speaker 2: five percent of the way there with Amber. They knock
Speaker 2: her down, George tries to get her in the car
Speaker 2: by saying, hey, let us take you to a hospital
Speaker 2: and or let us give you a ride somewhere. And
Speaker 2: so they're very close, but they don't actually grab her
Speaker 2: and forcibly put her in the car. So they're they're
Speaker 2: not quite there. And and Amber, on the other hand,
Speaker 2: is also very you know, she's she's angry, and she's
Speaker 2: not hurt so bad that she she can't defend herself
Speaker 2: if she has to, but she's angry enough that she's
Speaker 2: kind of giving them what for. And there's no way
Speaker 2: she's getting in a car with these guys. And she
Speaker 2: tells them that her dad happens to be one of
Speaker 2: the park rangers. So they get in the car and
Speaker 2: they leave very close to what they were intending to do,
Speaker 2: but not quite enough there to actually grab or abductor
Speaker 2: and carry out the plan. But this is just one
Speaker 2: more step along the way. They're very excited after this happens.
Speaker 2: They're talking about what they could have happened and what
Speaker 2: might have gone on, and so this is all just
Speaker 2: setting the scene for what happens later.
Speaker 9: Yeah, you say that they're very excited by this almost abduction.
Speaker 9: They're not discouraged whatsoever. They're pumped about, interested in doing
Speaker 9: something further. And you do a masterful job of, of
Speaker 9: course talking to the families, having access to the police.
Speaker 9: And with this book you have given us the character
Speaker 9: of Jason Galinsky, not just the headlines from or the
Speaker 9: little bit of reporting that you would get in newspapers
Speaker 9: or television. So tell us about as you found out,
Speaker 9: and you write about in the book Jayceon Glinski, her
Speaker 9: mother Peggy, and her father Bob, not a biological father.
Speaker 9: But tell us about Jason Golinsky. Who was she.
Speaker 2: Well, Jayceen Golinsky, sort of your all American girl. She
Speaker 2: was pretty and smart and quite the athlete. She participated
Speaker 2: in I mean her main thing was sports. She loves sports,
Speaker 2: she loved teams, she loved being with her teammates, a
Speaker 2: happy girl. Seemed to be one of those people that,
Speaker 2: as you I learned later talking to some of her
Speaker 2: friends or are in other accounts, you know, just sort
Speaker 2: of loved by everybody she had. She took care of
Speaker 2: her biological father, who had never really done much of
Speaker 2: anything for her, had never made her made the child
Speaker 2: support payments, was a sort of a bum in that regard.
Speaker 2: But he uh, but when he came down with cancer,
Speaker 2: jay Scene took care of him and nursed him throughout
Speaker 2: it and up until his his death. She was very
Speaker 2: close to with her mom, Pegy. They were She was
Speaker 2: an only child and Peggy's only child, and her mom
Speaker 2: just sort of lived through her. And even after Pegy
Speaker 2: divorced Jaycene's biological father when Jayson was very young and
Speaker 2: married Bob Louisa, you know, she they were just they
Speaker 2: were a family that did everything together. They went on
Speaker 2: vacation together, They of course, went to every single one
Speaker 2: of Jaysne's many sports events together. They were, you know, basically,
Speaker 2: you're just your quiet middle class family with Peggy living
Speaker 2: for the day when her daughter would uh settle down
Speaker 2: and get married and have a baby and give her
Speaker 2: grandchildren and just that sort of thing that most of
Speaker 2: us as we look forward in our lives when we
Speaker 2: have children, is the we we see a future that
Speaker 2: you know is filled with grandchildren and Christmases and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, school plays and and all of these sorts
Speaker 2: of things, and you don't have a lot of bad
Speaker 2: things coming into your life. Here, these are people who
Speaker 2: didn't live in a a bad area, who neighborhood or
Speaker 2: anything who had to deal with They didn't expose themselves
Speaker 2: to crime and criminals by their own behavior. They simply
Speaker 2: lived in a modest neighborhood and did well, went to church,
Speaker 2: and we're just basically good people who never expected anything
Speaker 2: bad to happen to them.
Speaker 9: Now you talk about this fateful day. She's driving her
Speaker 9: a little car and this and George Wolt are following her,
Speaker 9: and I'll get you to take it from there. What
Speaker 9: was she doing? And we alluded to in the introduction,
Speaker 9: So what was she doing that day? And what do
Speaker 9: these two gentlemen decide to do?
Speaker 2: Well? Jaseine was on her way to see her fairly
Speaker 2: new boyfriend she had broken up with a long time
Speaker 2: boyfriend who wasn't really very good for He was kind
Speaker 2: of an older guy, a coach of one of her
Speaker 2: college teams, who had had an an affair with her,
Speaker 2: not yet, I don't believe he was married, so affair
Speaker 2: as in just he was older, she was younger, and
Speaker 2: the one that her mom did not approve of, especially
Speaker 2: because he he sort of took Jaycene for a lot
Speaker 2: of money and and wasn't particularly a good guy in
Speaker 2: any of this. So Jaycene had broken up with him
Speaker 2: and was seeing a young man that her mom approved.
Speaker 2: He was much closer to her age and I was
Speaker 2: a nice young man by all accounts. And so Jaycene
Speaker 2: had had been studying and just left her apartment for
Speaker 2: to go have a late night dinner with her her boyfriend,
Speaker 2: and happened to be driving down this one road when
Speaker 2: Lucas and George pulled up alongside. Now they've been out
Speaker 2: as they were almost every night, having drinks at a
Speaker 2: bar and leering at the waitress and talking about their fantasy.
Speaker 2: And they had driven by a couple of places, some
Speaker 2: other bars, to see if maybe some young woman would
Speaker 2: present herself and they could abduct her and go carry
Speaker 2: out their fantasy. But still at this point they're still
Speaker 2: not quite there. They you know, they're talking about it.
Speaker 2: They're you know, they they've already they had had hit
Speaker 2: Amber Gonzalez. Uh so they're still kind of pumped for that.
Speaker 2: And they pull next to Jaysne and look over and
Speaker 2: see this pretty blonde girl. And that's when George, at
Speaker 2: least according to Lucas's version of it, because at a
Speaker 2: point in here they will both start saying it was
Speaker 2: the other gus Idea says, let's let's follow her, how
Speaker 2: about her, let's pay, let's do her, let's and he'd
Speaker 2: been talk teasing Lucas about let's get you some and
Speaker 2: meaning let's let's get to get your virginity over with
Speaker 2: and stuff, And so they fell in behind jay Scene
Speaker 2: and followed her to her boyfriend's apartment building.
Speaker 9: Now at this apartment, these guys aren't the most cautious guys.
Speaker 9: So they put their plan into the implement their plan.
Speaker 9: And so what do they do again, despite that people
Speaker 9: might have seen what they're doing, what do they do?
Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, they they're they're you know, they they haven't
Speaker 2: planned very well to the They basically, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: what they've had is this fantasy, but they've really never
Speaker 2: thought it out all that much. At some point, Lucas
Speaker 2: got a kitchen knife and put it in the glove box,
Speaker 2: but they'd been driving around with that for a while,
Speaker 2: and you know, but they hadn't really thought through this,
Speaker 2: especially the thinking through it sort of thing, where they are,
Speaker 2: you know, how do we get away with this and
Speaker 2: how do we not be seen? Because basically when they
Speaker 2: grab get out of their car and follow Jascene and
Speaker 2: then grab Jsne and are trying to force her back
Speaker 2: from the car, there's witnesses in the parking lot. There
Speaker 2: are people who see them. They see him when they're
Speaker 2: trying to get just Jaysne of course fights fights them
Speaker 2: and try to prevent being put in the car, and
Speaker 2: George physically assault her, punching earned into submission. All this
Speaker 2: is going on while people where people can see this,
Speaker 2: and then they leave the parking drive out of the
Speaker 2: parking lot with Lucas driving knowing that uh people are
Speaker 2: behind the car and must have seen the license plate.
Speaker 2: And this is that's almost one of the most bizarre
Speaker 2: parts of this whole thing is is that they were
Speaker 2: easily seen and made no attempt to uh, you know,
Speaker 2: try to grab somebody when they were alone, or or
Speaker 2: to disguise themselves, or to to wait until there were
Speaker 2: no witnesses. They just decided, now is the time, and
Speaker 2: we're going to go through with this, and that was
Speaker 2: apparently the only thing on their minds.
Speaker 9: You talk about this incredible moment where a dispatcher talks
Speaker 9: about the possible abduction of some women. She calls in
Speaker 9: the nine one one, uh, and there's four women witnesses
Speaker 9: witnesses here, So they say that they described a car.
Speaker 9: The thunder verdicts. It's when they say that this one
Speaker 9: man was punching her in the face, like you say,
Speaker 9: and another person was grabbing her legs. But the most
Speaker 9: eerie part is what you say is that one of
Speaker 9: the witnesses clearly said that the man had spotted her,
Speaker 9: she had spotted him, and he was smiling.
Speaker 2: She drove down because they're driving out, he sort of
Speaker 2: smirks or smiles or you know, you it's you always
Speaker 2: wondered about these these things, you know, was he smiling,
Speaker 2: was he uh smirking? And was he smiling because he
Speaker 2: was trying to pretend, Oh, this is no big deal
Speaker 2: or was he smiling because he was in the midst
Speaker 2: of carrying out this this fantasy. Uh, you know, so
Speaker 2: it it's it is one of those that you you
Speaker 2: sort of wish you could get into the the head
Speaker 2: of somebody like this, and or maybe we don't want
Speaker 2: to get into the head of somebody like this. It's
Speaker 2: it's the dark place. But where he is you just
Speaker 2: have to wonder. I mean, he looks up, he sees
Speaker 2: or this witness says when he looks up he sees
Speaker 2: her and he smiles or of some sort. So it's
Speaker 2: it is. There's a number of very weird moments in this,
Speaker 2: this whole story, from the beginning to the end. But
Speaker 2: that's that's certainly one of the weirder ones.
Speaker 9: Now you have this again, a situation where it's an emergency,
Speaker 9: there's a beyond the lookout was released and off. Her
Speaker 9: new boyfriend actually had called the boyfriend had called the
Speaker 9: parents looking for So tell us about what happens immediately
Speaker 9: after before we talk about what this pair, this despicable
Speaker 9: criminal pair due to this woman. But what's happening when
Speaker 9: after this report of her abduction and what happens with
Speaker 9: her parents? How did their parents find out of this
Speaker 9: ongoing event.
Speaker 2: Well, Peggy and Bob, they're they're at home, going to
Speaker 2: bed up in Denver, which is about sixty miles north
Speaker 2: of Colorado Springs, and they get a call from actually
Speaker 2: her her ex boyfriend, the one she'd broken up with,
Speaker 2: who is a a police officer, and he'd at this
Speaker 2: time and he'd actually heard something about Jaycene, a somebody
Speaker 2: matching Jaysne's description being abducted and and this sort of thing,
Speaker 2: and they wanted to know if they had heard anything.
Speaker 2: And and then shortly after that they get a it
Speaker 2: wasn't too long after that they get a a call
Speaker 2: from a police officer asking if they knew of of,
Speaker 2: you know, what, where Jaycene was. And it's sort of
Speaker 2: a series of calls because it doesn't take long for
Speaker 2: the police to to find uh Lucas and uh George.
Speaker 2: You know, they like I said, they had a license
Speaker 2: plate on them, They you know, had identified the car.
Speaker 2: They were able to get a description of the guys.
Speaker 2: There's so they you know it I mean obviously has
Speaker 2: taken a couple of hours because they've gone and done
Speaker 2: what they did. But they it's it's these calls come
Speaker 2: into the parents fairly quickly, a series of calls, and
Speaker 2: then they're asked, you know somebody named George Waltz, you
Speaker 2: know somebody named Lucas Salmon, And of course they don't.
Speaker 2: These are just names out of out of nowhere. And
Speaker 2: and then basically, uh, they're told that their daughter is
Speaker 2: dead and that she and Bob I think one of
Speaker 2: the more emotional moments of the book is is when
Speaker 2: he asked if she suffered, and the detective on the
Speaker 2: phone sort of hesitates for a minute and then says, yes,
Speaker 2: she suffered. And you know, that's that's just one of
Speaker 2: those moments where you're just your heart stops and and
Speaker 2: as a parent, you you have to you just you know,
Speaker 2: what would happen if I got a call like that?
Speaker 2: You know, how would I handle it? And and and
Speaker 2: just what a horrible thing from you know, nobody deserves
Speaker 2: to be murdered, and nobody deserves to have a bullet
Speaker 2: come flying in through their window and kill somebody, kill
Speaker 2: a child, or or anything else like this. And and
Speaker 2: those people are innocent as well. But you know, there's
Speaker 2: there's something about when you live in a high crime
Speaker 2: area that there's you know, the possibility of something bad
Speaker 2: happens is part of your her daily life. And I
Speaker 2: don't know if it makes you immune to it, but
Speaker 2: it certainly makes you more aware of it. But when
Speaker 2: you're a little middle class family with nothing more to
Speaker 2: worry about, making sure you're paying your bills, and is
Speaker 2: your daughter who's in Colorado Springs happy, and is she
Speaker 2: getting over her old boyfriend? And suddenly in the middle
Speaker 2: of the night you get a call that she's been abducted.
Speaker 2: And then as you learn to the night that she
Speaker 2: was abducted, and then you find out that she was murdered,
Speaker 2: and then you find out that she suffered. You know,
Speaker 2: just it just tears at your heart. And if you
Speaker 2: got any kind of empathy as a reader or an
Speaker 2: author's staring at your heart there too.
Speaker 9: Now, like you say, these guys are quickly rounded up,
Speaker 9: they find them not, of course, not time to prevent anything.
Speaker 9: There is always a dilemma of these two perpetrators not
Speaker 9: being not speaking to police, and police not gaining any
Speaker 9: valuable information and criminating and information they will use that trial,
Speaker 9: so they have to They try to encourage these people
Speaker 9: not to lawyer up immediately. What happens with the two
Speaker 9: of these two characters in custody. What's the strategy and
Speaker 9: what's the result.
Speaker 2: Well, they of course separate them and they start talking
Speaker 2: to them, but neither one of them, after some initial denials,
Speaker 2: you know, which lasted you know, a matter of minutes
Speaker 2: before they were even actually arrested or anything, they had
Speaker 2: confessed that they had you know, abducted and murdered a
Speaker 2: young woman. So at that point it becomes a trying
Speaker 2: to you know, get their stories before, as you say,
Speaker 2: they either lawyer or or or something along those lines.
Speaker 2: But both of them basically confessed. Now where they where
Speaker 2: there's a change is that they both make it more
Speaker 2: that the other guy was more culpable than they were.
Speaker 2: It's it's fairly typical that, well, he's the one that
Speaker 2: suggested it, and he's the one that you know, said
Speaker 2: we should do this. I you know, I was kind
Speaker 2: of going along or I was, and and to a
Speaker 2: degree there was there was some of that. I mean,
Speaker 2: Lucas was probably the most forthright of the two. George
Speaker 2: of course blamed everything on Lucas that it was all
Speaker 2: a game to him, and Lucas is the one that
Speaker 2: wanted to follow through on it. Lucas was more of
Speaker 2: the well, it became both of ours and and yes
Speaker 2: I did it, and I deserve whatever punishment I get,
Speaker 2: and and that sort of thing. And so you see
Speaker 2: that there that's split there right there, which is the
Speaker 2: George Woolf who is the in my opinion, the true
Speaker 2: sociopath here with no empathy and basically, uh, he's trying
Speaker 2: to minimize his involvement, blaming Lucas for everything, and Lucas
Speaker 2: more accepting his share of the responsibility. He does. He
Speaker 2: does a certain amount of of you know that it
Speaker 2: was George's fault too. But on the other hand, probably
Speaker 2: he's been telling the truth that a lot of this
Speaker 2: was more had more to do with George than with
Speaker 2: with Lucas, just because it's it's clear and from the
Speaker 2: evidence that the the talking about violent pornography and the
Speaker 2: trying to talk other people into committing crimes against women
Speaker 2: with them and stuff, that was that was all George.
Speaker 2: You didn't have Lucas suggesting to other people that they
Speaker 2: kill somebody or rape the women until he gets together
Speaker 2: with George, and then it he they start to share
Speaker 2: this fantasy until uh, Lucas is as guilty of murder
Speaker 2: and rape as George is. Uh. But you know, it's
Speaker 2: we come back to that question of would Lucas sam
Speaker 2: And have turned into a killer without George George wolfs
Speaker 2: uh interference or involvement. But you could say that too
Speaker 2: about George. But with George, I think it's more of
Speaker 2: a question of what he have ever had the courage
Speaker 2: to do something on his own if he couldn't find
Speaker 2: somebody like Lucas. Whereas Lucas is you know, would he
Speaker 2: have even had this this thought, this fantasy if there
Speaker 2: wasn't planted in his brain by George.
Speaker 9: Well, you've got to remember too, because it is the
Speaker 9: death penalty case our audience. Anyways, the death penalty case.
Speaker 9: It changes the dynamics of the case and the trial
Speaker 9: itself because regardless these both of these people are going
Speaker 9: to be equally guilty and their confession is equally incriminating.
Speaker 9: It is just a matter of these anti death penalty
Speaker 9: lawyers using these cases and fighting vehemently and vigorously for
Speaker 9: their clients because they don't believe in the death penalty,
Speaker 9: and so they have to use whatever, as you describe,
Speaker 9: any kind of angle that they can it becomes a battle,
Speaker 9: as you say, of the expert witnesses. But what I
Speaker 9: want to talk about is, and this is not so typical,
Speaker 9: is the state of the confessions themselves, the details how
Speaker 9: these two perpetrators stated. Those details tell us about Lucas
Speaker 9: salmon recitation of events and George Woltz version of events.
Speaker 2: Well, they're they're both interesting in that they's so matter
Speaker 2: of fact, you know, there's it's just sort of reciting
Speaker 2: a you know, they might as well have been at
Speaker 2: a movie reciting what happened and what happened next. There's
Speaker 2: there's very little emotion from either one of them as
Speaker 2: they tell the story. There, you know, there's not a
Speaker 2: lot of crying or weeping or or I'm so sorry,
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. It's more of just then we did this,
Speaker 2: and then we did that, and then he said this,
Speaker 2: and then I said that. You know, and I mean
Speaker 2: the police officers, the detectives who are interviewing them are
Speaker 2: certainly leaving them with, you know, questions as to and
Speaker 2: then what happened that sort of questioning. But I think
Speaker 2: that's part of the remarkableness of these confessions is that
Speaker 2: it's they're so so emotionless. There's if you look at
Speaker 2: them or you know, it's suggest the hope people will
Speaker 2: read the book, because there's a there's a lot to
Speaker 2: this book, you know, just sort of the idea of
Speaker 2: of I mean, the police officers order out for the
Speaker 2: you know, the the guys are hungry in the morning,
Speaker 2: so they order McDonald's for them and they set they're
Speaker 2: you know, chewing on a cheeseburger as they described, you know,
Speaker 2: how they cut Jason's throat. You know, it's it's it's
Speaker 2: almost the sort of thing where you know, boy, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, one of your worst serial killers. How how
Speaker 2: they can basically some some of them anyway, talk about
Speaker 2: murdering somebody and there, you know, their blood pressure doesn't rise.
Speaker 2: They don't exhibit any sort of physical reaction to discussing, uh,
Speaker 2: something that would make most of us, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: register in at least some way. And in that George
Speaker 2: and Lucas are both you know, uh, they they fit
Speaker 2: that more of that pattern of of the sociopath who
Speaker 2: you know lacks empathy because you know, can can tell
Speaker 2: a horrifying story like this and without you know, breaking
Speaker 2: down or without a whole ton of remorse. Neither one
Speaker 2: of them really ever ah says anything about remorse other
Speaker 2: than that they were sorry they did it, but mostly
Speaker 2: because now their lives are over. So there's there's very
Speaker 2: little of empathy for the victim or you know, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry. Uh, you know, she was she was
Speaker 2: a nice person, didn't deserve it, You don't. You don't
Speaker 2: see a lot of that. And with either one of them,
Speaker 2: do you see the you know, we decided to do it,
Speaker 2: and it was mostly his fault that we decided to
Speaker 2: do it sort of things.
Speaker 9: The other thing is what I won't we won't. I
Speaker 9: won't get you to go into the details because that's
Speaker 9: for people to read for themselves. There's incredible confessions and
Speaker 9: the details of not only did you have provided in
Speaker 9: the book of their detailed fantasies, but also what actually
Speaker 9: happens to Racine. You have incredible m you have put
Speaker 9: in the book that you talk about the parents brought
Speaker 9: in by the district attorney once this begins and they
Speaker 9: want the input from the parents whether they're going to
Speaker 9: go ahead with this death penalty. And also what I
Speaker 9: found fascinating was that the parents didn't really want to
Speaker 9: know a lot of the details, and when they went
Speaker 9: to court, they still didn't want to know those details.
Speaker 9: They did not want to see photos, They did not
Speaker 9: want to hear a lot of these details, did they.
Speaker 2: No, you know that some people want to know everything,
Speaker 2: but Jaycene's parents didn't. You know, it was enough that
Speaker 2: you know, she had been through what she was put through,
Speaker 2: and and that she was dead and these guys had
Speaker 2: done it. But they they tended to either wear earplugs
Speaker 2: during some of the testimony or they would actually leave
Speaker 2: the courtroom during some of it, not wanting to hear it.
Speaker 2: And they did that also, not just on the details
Speaker 2: of what happened to jay scene, but just even listening
Speaker 2: to either of these guys or their lawyers talking about
Speaker 2: or anybody else, you know, the psychologists talking about what happens.
Speaker 2: You know, they they they didn't need to know that,
Speaker 2: they didn't want to know all of that. They preferred not,
Speaker 2: you know, really really having that set in their minds
Speaker 2: as what Jaysne went to in her in her last minutes.
Speaker 9: We won't be able to talk about this trial. And
Speaker 9: that's for the reader to discover because we have just
Speaker 9: even covered not even half of a book of this
Speaker 9: incredible story. But one of the most interesting things is
Speaker 9: the the witnesses that end up at this trial, and
Speaker 9: one of them is Bonnie and George Woltz's wife, and
Speaker 9: we have you have nothing but in the rest of
Speaker 9: this book, uh, the incredible trial that again I mentioned
Speaker 9: this before, it seems like a slam dunk, but it's
Speaker 9: not a foregone conclusion. What happens in this case after that,
Speaker 9: especially unfortunately for all of the people involved, but especially
Speaker 9: Peggy and Bob in this So I just wanted to
Speaker 9: say though that took on this case because because of
Speaker 9: the death penalty aspect and issue, tell us how important
Speaker 9: that death penalty issue was to this story and this case.
Speaker 2: Well, it's certainly you know it. It changed, definitely changes everything.
Speaker 2: It changes how lawyers on both sides really, but particularly
Speaker 2: defense lawyers will approach a case, some of the things
Speaker 2: that they will do some people. In my opinion, I
Speaker 2: have great respect for lawyers on both sides of the aisle.
Speaker 2: Defense attorneys are as important, if not more important than
Speaker 2: the prosecuting attorneys in protecting rights and making sure that
Speaker 2: we get fair trials. And we've certainly all heard enough
Speaker 2: about innocent people being convicted and being railroaded, and these
Speaker 2: sorts of things, and and and there are circumstances sometimes
Speaker 2: where I mean, in the law recognizes it were a
Speaker 2: case that would seem to be called for the death penalty.
Speaker 2: Maybe there's there's some things we haven't considered that they're
Speaker 2: generally called mitigators that you know, maybe make it so
Speaker 2: that the death penalty, if you believe in it at all,
Speaker 2: is maybe not the appropriate punishment. But in this case,
Speaker 2: in particular, the Colorado's State Public Defenders Office is a
Speaker 2: very good one. They're there as far as the quality
Speaker 2: of their attorneys. Sometimes public defenders offices are you're you're
Speaker 2: not getting the best of the best. But client in Colorado,
Speaker 2: the particularly those who handle the death penalty, plus the
Speaker 2: other attorneys who are private attorneys who volunteered who work
Speaker 2: on death penalties are are all very good as far
Speaker 2: as their abilities. In this particular case, I think we
Speaker 2: we saw some of the abuses of a death penalty
Speaker 2: case as far as what the parents of jayceeen were
Speaker 2: were put through. Uh in this as lawyers who you know,
Speaker 2: they they seem to have reached a conclusion that whatever
Speaker 2: it took to prevent their clients from being sentenced to death.
Speaker 2: Was was more important and moral superior to what was
Speaker 2: uh just and and and what the parents of the
Speaker 2: victim were put through. They the parents in this case
Speaker 2: that Peggy and Bob became even more victims than the
Speaker 2: than the usual uh, the families and friends of victims
Speaker 2: every every you know, victims. When you talk about victims,
Speaker 2: you obviously have the person who who's murdered, but then
Speaker 2: you have a widening circle of victims from family and
Speaker 2: loved ones and friends, and then out to friends of
Speaker 2: friends and then the community, and then you know, all
Speaker 2: the way to ourselves as a nation when we when
Speaker 2: we study these sorts of things. But in this particular case,
Speaker 2: Peggy and Bob were or subjected to, uh some efforts
Speaker 2: on the behalf of the defendants by the defense attorneys
Speaker 2: that just you know, just will make your stomach turned
Speaker 2: and uh and it went beyond the cause of justice
Speaker 2: or to me, the role of defense attorneys, which I
Speaker 2: agree is, is to zealously represent their their clients. But
Speaker 2: at some point there are there are you know, ethics
Speaker 2: and boundaries and and lines that shouldn't be crossed on
Speaker 2: behalf of of murderers. Who have been convicted of a
Speaker 2: heinous crime, and you know, you've decided that the only
Speaker 2: thing that matters is the defendant in his life, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter what you're doing to anybody else. Uh.
Speaker 2: And that's you know, there there are great defense attorneys
Speaker 2: who do everything they can for their their clients and
Speaker 2: there to be applauded. And then there are a few
Speaker 2: who go beyond that too, because they believe in a
Speaker 2: political uh statement, or they believe that the defendant's right
Speaker 2: rights to life or whatever are more important than than
Speaker 2: the other people. And and in that and that the victim,
Speaker 2: Jaysne becomes nothing more than something to argue over. She's
Speaker 2: a case number, she's nothing more than the reason we
Speaker 2: are all gathered here in this courtroom, and her parents
Speaker 2: become nothing more than ponds and pieces of the chess
Speaker 2: game that the defense attorneys are playing with the prosecutors.
Speaker 2: So that it is a I think it's a it's
Speaker 2: a it's a really interesting case for as one of
Speaker 2: those cases that we hold up as a mirror of
Speaker 2: our society. And when we're faced with some of these
Speaker 2: important issues such as the death penalty.
Speaker 9: Uh.
Speaker 2: And and that's and to me, That's what true crime
Speaker 2: writing is about, is is that crime, obviously is a
Speaker 2: is an important topic in our society and how we
Speaker 2: deal with it, and how we deal with violence and
Speaker 2: and all these sorts of things. Uh is is important
Speaker 2: to us, and we need to deal with it. And
Speaker 2: by reading these these sorts of stories and we can,
Speaker 2: we can kind of get a view of what our
Speaker 2: justice system is like and and what it does to
Speaker 2: to everybody, including the people who are usually forgotten in
Speaker 2: all of this, which are the victims them the victims' families.
Speaker 9: I agree with you about the limits of defending your
Speaker 9: client to the best of their ability, and I've mentioned
Speaker 9: that before, but this is a prime example of no
Speaker 9: consideration or not enough consideration, or whatever you want to say.
Speaker 9: The reality is that the victims are the families are revictimized.
Speaker 9: And that's all you can say from this from the
Speaker 9: behavior of those of these lawyers that are anti death penalty.
Speaker 9: So I understand that they're especially vehement in their defense
Speaker 9: of these people because of that, because of their philosophy,
Speaker 9: But I agree with you there has to be some
Speaker 9: sort of limit to what the victim's family would have
Speaker 9: to be subjected to and so, And it was interesting
Speaker 9: too that I've never really seen this before that the
Speaker 9: parents were asked if they were interested in the death penalty,
Speaker 9: and they were understandably, I think, regardless of what position
Speaker 9: you are on the death penalty. But they said it
Speaker 9: after the behavior of the defense attorneys that they were
Speaker 9: more committed to the death penalty, which isn't typical. I
Speaker 9: would think, well.
Speaker 2: I don't I think they really they would. What they
Speaker 2: say is they wouldn't have gone through it again. If
Speaker 2: if they had had to do it over again, they
Speaker 2: wouldn't go through it. Not because they didn't believe that
Speaker 2: Lucas and George deserve didn't deserve the death penalty, and
Speaker 2: they'd rethought that at all. That's that's if anything, You're
Speaker 2: right that they believed even more that they deserved the
Speaker 2: death penalty, but just having to go through the time,
Speaker 2: I mean, the way the courts operate and judges allow,
Speaker 2: you know, all sorts of delays, you know, silly stuff
Speaker 2: like the defense attorneys being given three weeks to get
Speaker 2: them some something in order, then them coming in on
Speaker 2: the eleventh hour on that third week and say, no,
Speaker 2: we just we didn't have enough time. When it's clearly
Speaker 2: just a ball and the way practice which is meant
Speaker 2: to you know, they're hoping to wear down the not
Speaker 2: just the state, not just you know, we all know
Speaker 2: that they will sometimes flood the prosecutor's office with motions
Speaker 2: and paperwork, and the state has to keep up with
Speaker 2: all this sort of stuff, but you know, just that
Speaker 2: you know that they'll wear down the parents here, that
Speaker 2: the parents will eventually say, you know, never mind, we
Speaker 2: don't want the death penalty. We just you know, want
Speaker 2: us to be over and and and when it's when
Speaker 2: it's that sort of thing, and then that a judge
Speaker 2: or these judges can't get a grip on their own
Speaker 2: courtrooms and on these attorneys and say, you know, you
Speaker 2: had this amount of time, that's it, that's let's go.
Speaker 2: Let's move this these things forward and and move this
Speaker 2: and move these in some sort of a way that
Speaker 2: doesn't just drag on for years and years. And I
Speaker 2: mean even after if somebody is convicted of the death penalty.
Speaker 2: You know, the the whole part of this whole issue
Speaker 2: of appeal after appeal after appeal isn't so much because
Speaker 2: there are you know, concerns about was this uh, this
Speaker 2: defendant's rights vile, where his rights violated, or did it
Speaker 2: stay do this wrong or was this wrong or or
Speaker 2: something like that. A lot of it is just done
Speaker 2: to delay in the hope that eventually the either the
Speaker 2: state or the victim's parents or whoever, will give up
Speaker 2: and say, you know, we don't we don't want this anymore. Now,
Speaker 2: somebody who doesn't believe in the death penalty will say, well,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm in the right. I thought for this person's life.
Speaker 2: And and if it took causing all these delays and
Speaker 2: sort of this sort of thing, then you know, good
Speaker 2: for me, I I saved saved his life. But you
Speaker 2: know once again that that comes at the price to
Speaker 2: other people who for whom that that might not be justice,
Speaker 2: and and and and it's not the law. You know,
Speaker 2: the law is that we have a death penalty, but
Speaker 2: it's it's not carried out. Yeah.
Speaker 9: It's also interesting when you talk about the judges not
Speaker 9: being able to have control of the court room, it's
Speaker 9: it seems that they're they're especially concerned that they may
Speaker 9: make some minor error which again will even delay it
Speaker 9: even longer, or some minor grounds of appeal, and with
Speaker 9: the threat of maybe overturning all the work that they
Speaker 9: did in some of these long extended trials as well.
Speaker 2: So well, no judge wants to be overturned. You know,
Speaker 2: it's sort of a slap in the face. And in
Speaker 2: some ways, at least with bad judges. Good judges understand
Speaker 2: that they may make a mistake and it may come
Speaker 2: back on appeal or something like that. But you know,
Speaker 2: they make their decisions based on their understanding of the
Speaker 2: law and they move it forward. But some judges are
Speaker 2: so concerned about, you knowing, being overturned on appeal, and
Speaker 2: it's from some judicial mistake that they are cautious to
Speaker 2: the point of losing control of their courtrooms. And basically
Speaker 2: they just don't want to do anything that might possibly
Speaker 2: come back to get them. So you know, those judges
Speaker 2: don't belong in courtrooms.
Speaker 6: Really.
Speaker 9: I want to thank you, Steve for coming on and
Speaker 9: talk about a clockwork murder murder for those that might
Speaker 9: be interested in looking at your other work, and obviously
Speaker 9: I mentioned about publisher Wild Blue Press, all the incredible
Speaker 9: true crime authors that you have in that in your stable.
Speaker 9: We'll say, for lack of a better term, tell us
Speaker 9: a little bit about the Wild Blue Press and where
Speaker 9: they might find contact about you and your other work.
Speaker 2: Well you can. The best place to go, of course
Speaker 2: is wild bluepress dot com and you'll find that a
Speaker 2: fairly easy website to navigate. And there's true crime. We
Speaker 2: also print a certain amount of romance. And our first
Speaker 2: history book came out yesterday about Killing Respute, which is
Speaker 2: actually a very interesting book in that it's part history,
Speaker 2: but the author handles part of it as a true crime,
Speaker 2: which is interesting was interesting to me. She kind of
Speaker 2: looks at the forensic evidence and compare it and and
Speaker 2: go through it, so it's it's almost more of a
Speaker 2: historic true crime than it is just a a history
Speaker 2: about this unusual character. But anyway, yes, at wild bluepress
Speaker 2: dot com and you'll find a lot of really great
Speaker 2: true crime authors there. As we're seem to be adding
Speaker 2: a new one every week, or a new book by
Speaker 2: somebody that people already know about. But it's it's been
Speaker 2: we're now let's see, I guess about three years into
Speaker 2: into having published our first book, and and we've got
Speaker 2: some three dozen books I think out there now and
Speaker 2: a couple dozen authors and and you know, our whole
Speaker 2: uh concept was to to get good books out there
Speaker 2: that traditional publishers. Traditional publishers have gone to they only
Speaker 2: want the big book. They wanted the O. J. Simpson book,
Speaker 2: or they want the you know, the big, big, high
Speaker 2: publicity court case or trial and that people have seen
Speaker 2: on television. But there are to me, those are not
Speaker 2: necessarily the good true crime stories the today. I don't
Speaker 2: think Anne Rule would probably get half of her books
Speaker 2: published under the new rules with traditional publishers. So we
Speaker 2: tend to try to gather those authors, both best selling
Speaker 2: and also the occasional rookie who we look at the
Speaker 2: book and we say, you know, the story deserves to
Speaker 2: be told. And we seem to have two or three
Speaker 2: new true crime books coming out every month, and there's
Speaker 2: always some sort of deal. But I hope people will
Speaker 2: remember that, you know, for for every ninety nine cent
Speaker 2: book they buy, they got to look into buying a
Speaker 2: book at full price if you want to keep your
Speaker 2: favorite authors writing as opposed to having to work bagging
Speaker 2: groceries or something. Just because there are there are a
Speaker 2: lot of pre books you can get out there these days,
Speaker 2: and I know people kind of wait for them or
Speaker 2: the ninety nine cent deals, but you know and on occasion,
Speaker 2: uh you know, say that that Starbucks coffee and and
Speaker 2: support your local authors.
Speaker 9: So that's yeah, I absolutely agree, No, I agree to.
Speaker 9: And people that are that are readers and people who
Speaker 9: listen to this program know the value of books and
Speaker 9: so that's why these authors are successful. And I just
Speaker 9: want to thank you for the work that you've done
Speaker 9: with Wild Blue Press authors representing authors, what a crazy concept,
Speaker 9: and putting out well deserved and books from well deserving authors.
Speaker 9: So I want to thank you very much for coming
Speaker 9: on talking about a clockwork murder the night a twisted
Speaker 9: fantasy became a demented reality. Thank you very much, Steve Jackson.
Speaker 9: Hope to talk to you again real soon. You have
Speaker 9: a great evening.
Speaker 2: Thank you you too, Dan. Like I said, always a pleasure.
Speaker 2: Bye bye, thank you bye,