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That's Chumbuck 53 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:00.000 casino dot com. 54 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.840 The overtis their idever by lost the terms conditions eighteen plus. 55 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:15.919 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 56 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:19.039 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 57 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:26.400 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 58 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:30.120 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 59 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:34.759 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 60 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:38.280 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 61 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:51.439 Good Evening. They thought about their evil fantasy for months, 62 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:56.639 then wound up. Like clockwork toys, they acted. In April 63 00:02:56.759 --> 00:03:00.280 nineteen ninety seven, pretty twenty two year old Jayson Gillinski 64 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:04.639 stopped her car at a red light in Colorado Springs, Colorado. 65 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:07.319 She had no idea that the two young men looking 66 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:09.719 at her from the car next to hers would, in 67 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:13.879 that moment decide she would be their target for unspeakable horrors. 68 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:18.479 George Wolt and Lucas Salmon were an unlikely pair of 69 00:03:18.520 --> 00:03:22.520 best friends, much less killers. Walt was a fast talking, 70 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:25.919 well dressed ladies man who boasted of his sexual conquest. 71 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:31.240 Salmon was deeply religious and a social misfit. Obsessed with 72 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:36.479 losing his virginity. Walt was the leader, Samon his willing follower, 73 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:40.319 but neither had been in serious trouble with the law. However, 74 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:44.240 inspired by the cult movie A Clockwork Orange with its 75 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:47.879 dystopian violence, they fantasized for months what it would be 76 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:53.360 like to abduct, rape, torture, and murder a woman. Then, 77 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:56.719 aroused by watching ultra violent pornography, they decided to act 78 00:03:56.800 --> 00:04:00.719 upon their evil thoughts. Revised in Updated with a new 79 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:04.879 afterword from the author, A Clockwork Murder recounts the steps 80 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:08.479 that led to an unthinkable crime and its impact on 81 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:11.520 a community, as well as the friends and especially the 82 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:14.439 parents of an innocent young woman who paid with her 83 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:17.480 life for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. 84 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:21.160 From the True Crime Library of New York Times bestselling 85 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:25.399 author Steve Jackson, comes A Clockwork Murder the night a 86 00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:31.800 twisted fantasy became a demented reality, with my special guest, 87 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:35.680 journalist and author and publisher Steve Jackson. Welcome back to 88 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:37.959 the program. Thank you very much for greeting this interview. 89 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:39.319 Steve Jackson. 90 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:42.839 Well, thank you, Dan. It's always a pleasure to be here. 91 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:48.800 It's always a pleasure having you always a pleasure. Let's 92 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:55.160 get to why in particular you thought at the time 93 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:58.560 and how you came to write a clockwork murder. 94 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:04.240 Actually, I had been working on a series of stories 95 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:08.879 about the death penalty and in Colorado, which was going through 96 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:12.519 a number of permutations at that time, and had been 97 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:16.639 from all the you know, different types of juries, whether 98 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:21.839 judges decide. So I originally was looking at the story, 99 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:26.519 this story as part of of that history of the 100 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:30.240 death penalty. I was doing this for a a news 101 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:36.800 magazine UH in Colorado, and and this case, the these 102 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:42.040 two murder trials of of UH Lucas Salmon and George 103 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:46.759 Wolt for the murder of J. C. Glinski UH were 104 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:52.879 going through various permutations at that time of in the process, 105 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:57.759 and and it was it was a fairly new version 106 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:00.800 of the death penalty, and this was a These were 107 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:08.199 cases in which judges would be used to determine whether defendants, 108 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:12.040 if he has found guilty, would be sentenced to death. 109 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:16.480 Since then, the judge panels have been eliminated and it's 110 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:19.480 back to the jury, a regular jury of your peers 111 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:23.120 making that decision. But that's kind of how I found 112 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:28.560 out about the trial or this case in particular, and 113 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:31.839 then as I started to look into it, you know, 114 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:35.240 it was just a really unusual case. It was one 115 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:38.879 of those where you say, you know, if either one 116 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:41.959 of these guys hadn't met the other guy or was 117 00:06:42.079 --> 00:06:45.360 under was influenced by the other guy, would this have 118 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:49.959 ever happened? Would Jaysne still be alive? So you know 119 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.519 that it it struck me in that in that regard 120 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:59.560 and just sort of how to not particularly you know, 121 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:05.199 heinous individuals or not somebody you would have thought would 122 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:09.160 be involved in a murder, especially a murder of this sort. 123 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:13.639 You know what happened in their thought processes and how 124 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:15.680 they got to that point. 125 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:21.600 Right now, You talked very early in the book about 126 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:26.079 what you found out about the upbringing of George Wolt 127 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:28.959 and you say he was born in nineteen seventy six 128 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:32.560 in South Korea. His father's Bill, father Bill a at 129 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:35.759 an army base, and his mother was South Korean and 130 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:38.800 her name was Song. Who now tell us just a 131 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:42.519 little bit about his early life, what you found about 132 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:45.120 growing up on these army bases and how they wound 133 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:49.160 up and when in the Colorado Army base at Fort Carson, 134 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:50.519 Fort Cason. 135 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:58.240 Yeah, Fort Carson is correct. Well, it's one of those 136 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:05.720 things where you know, as a an overseas marriage, George's mom, 137 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:11.680 dad married his mom obviously she was Korean, and then 138 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:15.519 they as army families do they they transferred back to 139 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:19.120 the States and eventually he ended up at Fort car 140 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:22.920 Carson Army Base, which is one of our country's larger 141 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:29.319 army bases. And George's early upbringing, you know, there's there's 142 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:33.039 minor incidents. There's a point where he lost part of 143 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:37.919 a finger in a in an accident. He was really 144 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:41.639 a doated on by his mom. He you know she 145 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:45.919 but in kind of a strange way, he was both 146 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:51.240 cherished and at the same time constantly under her, you know, 147 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:54.759 sit up straight and make sure your hair is combed 148 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.200 and uh, you know, clean under your fingernails and uh 149 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:03.320 and she could be she has appears to have had 150 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:09.879 some mental illness issues herself, and some of this, you know, 151 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.279 would later come out with George and sort of his 152 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:14.720 treatment of women. 153 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:22.080 You also talk about early sort of diagnosis with obsession 154 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:24.200 with his appearance, like you had mentioned, but all those 155 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:28.639 band aids and then a banding on a left finger 156 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:30.759 had to be matched with a band aid on the 157 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:35.399 right finger. So some odd and peculiar behavior at a 158 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:37.120 young age was exhibited, wasn't it. 159 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:44.919 Yeah, he definitely had some obsessive, compulsive habits, as you 160 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:47.600 noted the you know, if he had a band aid 161 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:50.799 over on on one hand, he had to have a 162 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:53.159 matching band aid on the other. And sometimes he wore 163 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:56.960 band aids just for the heck of wearing band aids. 164 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:03.000 So he and he he was obsessive about his his appearance. 165 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:06.120 Part of this I think coming directly from his mom. 166 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:09.440 But the the sort of thing, you know, no hair 167 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.039 out of place, and uh, you know, a lot of 168 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:16.399 looking in the mirror type things and uh, and if 169 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:19.039 he wasn't perfect, his mom would let him know that, 170 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:23.080 you know, he was wasn't looking perfect. So I think 171 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:27.440 a lot of what went on with George has to 172 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:30.480 do with his mom and his treatment there. You know, 173 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:35.039 his father was also something of an alcoholic, so he 174 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:39.559 didn't contribute to as you as you might want with 175 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:45.320 a young child toward his upbringing. So it's it's one 176 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:48.399 of those things where you know, we're always talking about this, 177 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:52.240 you know, is an environment is it? Uh? Is it hereditary? 178 00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:53.799 Is it a. 179 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:57.360 Combination of the two. And you know there there always 180 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:00.480 seems to be to me, always seems to be some 181 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:01.679 combinations here. 182 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:10.039 You talk about early on, according to friends, that he 183 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:12.840 considered women to be bitches and good only for sex, 184 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:17.919 and he didn't seem to have a necessary respect from 185 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:22.080 his mother. In fact, this will it be exhibited later 186 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:26.200 with some of his friends, especially with Salmon, with Lucas Salmon, 187 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:30.519 that he would provoke and ridicule his mother in front 188 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:34.080 of friends. So he had no respect for women at 189 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:37.720 an early age, and he expressed that to people around them, 190 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:38.440 didn't he. 191 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:43.120 Yes, I think the tables kind of turned once he 192 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:46.159 hit puberty. You know, at first the mom was the 193 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:53.200 I guess the dominant person in that relationship and her 194 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:57.399 treatment of him. But as he got older, he sort 195 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:00.759 of turned it around and she found her herself at 196 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:07.519 the butt of you know, these issues, and so it's 197 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:10.639 it's it's one of those things where you know, did 198 00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:13.960 she set this in motion and only to pay for 199 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:17.399 it herself. But but George certainly had a low opinion 200 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:22.000 of women. Uh, he could be charming and often actually 201 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:26.159 was very charming to their faces, but he turned around 202 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:29.600 and talked to his friends about you know, there they 203 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:32.879 were like, as you said, good for one thing, good 204 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.200 for sex, it's all about their looks. It was all 205 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:44.559 about compliance with him. Uh, he was into rougher sex acts. 206 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:47.960 And as he started to get into pornography and that 207 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:54.080 sort of thing, he he enjoyed more violent pornography. So 208 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:58.480 it's it's again one of those things that was this 209 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:02.639 all hereditary or did some of this come from a 210 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:06.639 something a learned behavior or something that he held against 211 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.840 his mother and then took out on on other women. 212 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:16.519 You also write about that he was prone to exaggerating 213 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:19.240 and lying about things, that he was a contract killer 214 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:23.720 and a martial arts expert when he was talking to 215 00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:27.799 these women too, So sort of a yeah. 216 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:32.879 He's always making himself bigger than he was. You know, 217 00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:37.320 he obviously had low self esteem. Anybody who you know, 218 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:41.000 feels the constant need to brag and lie about, you know, 219 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:44.919 their accomplishments and and that sort of thing. It's it's 220 00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:49.039 it's sort of the you know, somebody who's putting up 221 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:56.360 a facade of ultra manliness and you know, tough guy 222 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:00.600 and ladies man and glib and all that sort of thing, 223 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:02.679 but you kind of wonder what's hiding behind that. 224 00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:14.000 Right now, you talk about Lucas Salmon and George Wolt 225 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:20.759 meeting in nineteen ninety four at a telemarketing firm. We talked, 226 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:23.360 we just spoke in the introduction about Lucas Salmon being 227 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:28.240 much different than George Wolt completely, So tell us about 228 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:32.639 Lucas Salmon and his completely different upbringing. 229 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:45.159 Well, Lucas was he was raised in a very very 230 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:49.360 Christian family, focus on the family. So it's a very 231 00:14:49.360 --> 00:15:00.159 conservative Christian upbringing, with the a lot of what you 232 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:03.320 should and shouldn't dos, and what's good, what's bad, and 233 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:07.279 that sort of thing. Unfortunately, of course, as you know 234 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:10.360 from the story that there were some issues with his 235 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:13.600 father not quite living up to some of those standards 236 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:17.799 and having affairs, including with babysitters and these sorts of 237 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:23.639 things that would come out later. But so Lucas was 238 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:28.759 raised in a very sheltered sort of family. They didn't 239 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:35.799 watch much television, they were always going to church. He 240 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:41.519 was expected to, you know, remain a virgin, tell marriage 241 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:44.480 and all these sorts of things. 242 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:53.080 Now, these two again unlikely people, this unlikely pair, met 243 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:56.120 at this little telemarketing firm in nineteen eighty four, as 244 00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:00.480 you write, So tell us about this meeting they have, 245 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:03.200 and what do they have in common, and why do 246 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:04.639 they become fast friends? 247 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:11.879 Well, at first Lucas didn't like George. George, they're both 248 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:14.679 working at this place. George is the you know, as 249 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:18.879 we have heard, he's the sort of the braggarts and 250 00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:22.799 boasting and talking about what a great lady's man he is, 251 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:27.879 and and Lucas is reserved and sort of shy. He's 252 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:31.519 at this point he's hardly even been on a date, 253 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:36.120 much less he's he's still a virgin and uh and 254 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:41.759 that heats at him. But he also is trying to 255 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:48.759 be faithful to his faith, I guess. But George, so, 256 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:53.159 George of course targets you know, the we weak people. 257 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:57.159 So one of the people he he targets is Lucas 258 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:02.919 and teases him, uh a mercifully talks about his lack 259 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:07.680 of women and sexual prowess and these sorts of things. 260 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:12.200 And even even as they become friends, which is sort 261 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:16.839 of an odd thing in itself, is that George, now 262 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:23.599 George picks Lucas. 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That one is the uh, the more dominant 279 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:19.519 of the two basically is able to get the other 280 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:24.480 to do his bidding and to or to at least, 281 00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:27.880 you know, sort of lend his lend some courage to 282 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:33.279 him something that they the the one, the potential sociopath 283 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:35.200 may not have the courage to do on his own, 284 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:39.599 he might find if he if he has someone to 285 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:43.880 to do it with him. So George picks Lucas and 286 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:47.559 and uh, you know kind of nurtures him along as, oh, 287 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:49.839 you're my best friend. Though every once in a while 288 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:54.000 he'll he'll torment Lucas with them, I'm leaving you. We're 289 00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:56.880 not friends anymore. So he liked to do that to him. 290 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.240 And uh, Lucas, on the other hand, is Joe Org 291 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.799 is sort of the guy he wishes he could be, uh, 292 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:11.039 you know, fast talking ladies man, uh sure of himself. 293 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:16.000 Lucas sort of buys into George's lies about being a 294 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:19.799 karate experts and and tough and and all these sorts 295 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:23.039 of things. And and so you have Lucas the kind 296 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:32.400 of shy uh ultra Christian person who is young man 297 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:35.240 who is trying to find his way in the world. 298 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:40.400 Is has some issues as far as, uh just not 299 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.480 being being able to hold much of a conversation, especially 300 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.720 with women. And here's this guy who's kind of everything 301 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:50.559 he wants to be. So you know, when this guy 302 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:55.279 starts treating him nice, he Lucas uh just sort of 303 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:59.680 blombs onto that, and uh, he's pretty soon. George is 304 00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.720 his best friend and Lucas is, or at least George 305 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:07.240 says Lucas is his best friend, and they're together all 306 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:15.400 the time. And that's becomes the genesis of this eventual fantasy. 307 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:22.119 During this time, Walt being this ladies man right from 308 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:25.039 the very beginning, has various girlfriends and pregnating them. He 309 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:29.279 has Becky and his son, but she finds out that 310 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:34.160 he's fooling around. So whenever Lucas Salmon comes to visit, 311 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:36.839 he stays with them. He stays with Walt and whatever 312 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:39.920 girlfriend he's with, because he goes through a succession of 313 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:47.039 women Becky Karen. So what he does is that Lucas 314 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:51.400 goes back to Christian College in southern California each fall. 315 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:54.759 So this is a process that doesn't happen very quickly, 316 00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:58.319 as you explained in the book, goes over a period 317 00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:01.559 of a few years, for a couple of years of 318 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:05.599 him grooming this guy, working on him to the point 319 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.720 where you say that this person at once was known 320 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:13.799 to not curse and had a certain behavior. What was 321 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:16.759 the state of him in the fall of ninety five 322 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:21.640 or before ninety five, And the difference that people that 323 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:27.559 knew Lucas well noticed after staying with George Walton, the 324 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.519 woman he was with at the time, Well, there's. 325 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:35.319 There was definitely a change in the behavior. They noticed 326 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:39.039 that all of a sudden, Lucas, who, as you noted, 327 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:46.599 didn't curse or drink or or talk ludeley about women, 328 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:51.480 Suddenly that's what he's doing. He's cursing and drinking and 329 00:21:54.200 --> 00:22:00.599 you know, staring ludely at women, making suggestives remarks. He's 330 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:06.759 basically emulating what he thinks George woltz Uh is and 331 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:11.519 and so this it has been a long process of 332 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:18.720 glooming George getting Lucas a little bit farther down the road. 333 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.720 If if the end of this road is is where 334 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:25.519 this book ends up, George kind of moves him along 335 00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:28.880 the road slowly. There are these periods of time when 336 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:33.519 Lucas has gone out of town and George Uh actually 337 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:39.720 shifts his attention to others, but he other people are 338 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:44.559 are stronger. They may be friends with George for a while, 339 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:49.119 but then sort of his his weirdness and his fantasies 340 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:52.559 and some of the things he starts talking about. Eventually 341 00:22:53.880 --> 00:23:00.119 a normal person or or somebody with some sorts of 342 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:05.880 standards isn't going to go farther than that. But so George, 343 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:11.119 who would repeatedly return back to When Lucas would return, 344 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:15.440 George would turn his attentions back to Lucas as this 345 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:19.799 one person who he kept being able to manipulate and 346 00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:23.480 move a little bit farther down that dark road. 347 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:29.799 You give a fantastic example of the you know, the 348 00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:36.839 future in this book where George Wolt. When Salmon returns 349 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:40.039 to school in southern California in the fall ninety five, 350 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:43.599 he turns to a new friend named James Wilson. Tell 351 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:46.960 us what he says to James Wilson, his new friend, 352 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:50.519 and tell us the kind of movies that he introduces 353 00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:56.559 him to, and what at least he thinks that George 354 00:23:56.599 --> 00:24:00.240 is suggesting to him to do well. 355 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:05.279 They George tries most of the same sorts of things 356 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:08.200 on all of these friends. You know, he starts watching porns, 357 00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:12.680 talks about women, wants to go out and meet other women, 358 00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:20.640 and then the pornography increasingly becomes more violent type of pornography, 359 00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:24.759 and and George starts talking about a fantasy of Hey, 360 00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:28.720 let's you know. Some of it sounds sort of you know, 361 00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:32.319 I don't I wouldn't classify it as normal, but it's 362 00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:35.240 the you know, they're driving by, they see some woman 363 00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.960 and George would say something like, hey, let's go raper 364 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:42.799 and the other guy would look at him kind of 365 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:45.440 what are you saying, and George would laugh it off 366 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.079 or it's just joking type stuff. And then they get 367 00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:52.960 to one point where I believe the reference you're talking 368 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:55.759 about is they're actually up in the mountains and they 369 00:24:55.799 --> 00:25:01.079 see a couple in a car parks at a at 370 00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:06.279 a overlook up in the mountains above Colorado Springs, and 371 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:11.599 George suggests that they they stop, and George suggests that 372 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:15.759 they actually kill the the young man and rape the 373 00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:18.720 woman and kill her. And he goes so far as 374 00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:21.319 to pick up some large rocks and put him in 375 00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:26.240 his car. Uh. You know, so this is kind of 376 00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:30.920 one step farther along that line. But this, but James 377 00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:34.759 Wilson is you know, at this point, he's you know, okay, 378 00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:38.240 this isn't this isn't funny anymore, even if it, you know, 379 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:42.119 ever was funny, But this, this is particular getting a 380 00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.759 little bit weird. And that sort of where that point 381 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:52.000 where the normal person with normal uh standards and morals 382 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:57.480 and uh strong enough ego themselves uh sort of gets 383 00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:00.000 to that you know, okay, this is this is enough. 384 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:05.079 I've I've heard enough, and and you're weird and in fact, 385 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:10.480 James warned his girlfriend and has told his girlfriend's sister, 386 00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:14.319 I believe to UH to you know, stay away from 387 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:18.519 uh George, that that there was something wrong with him. 388 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:21.559 And even though George would oh, I didn't really mean it. 389 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:24.920 I was just laughing at off to see how you'd react. 390 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:28.599 What George is doing, He's seeing how these other guys, 391 00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:32.559 these other friends react to this, and those who eventually, 392 00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:35.519 you know, say I don't want anything more to do 393 00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:38.039 with you, You're too weird, or you know, I don't 394 00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:41.200 want to hear you talk about that anymore. He he 395 00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:45.799 lets them go. They're they're not what he needs to 396 00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:48.240 accomplish what he has in mind. 397 00:26:50.359 --> 00:26:57.279 Tell us about it's very fascinating about the attempts by 398 00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:03.599 George to set up Lucas Salmon with various women. And 399 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:06.319 what were the results? He taught them for being a virgin, 400 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:08.759 So what are the results and how does he set 401 00:27:08.839 --> 00:27:12.480