Speaker 1: What is up, fellas it goes? I have Dan Valley
coming at you as always with the one, the old me,
the legendary, the certified, fandabulous. Mister Grant Hugh it's Western
Conference Trade deadline primer time. It seems like we might
have some news and rubers to talk about. Who knows,
we already did the East, So if you haven't done
gone to check out that episode we were It was
really it was short. It was only like two hours
and eighteen minutes long or something like that. So you
just that'll take you no time at all to consume
before we get started. Mister Grant Hughes, I don't know
why Full named you there, but how are you doing?
Speaker 2: I'm doing well. I'm excited that it's a double hat
episode and for no other reasons, if you're listening with us,
that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1: But if you can't be the first double hat episode, right,
it's probably not.
Speaker 2: But they're rare. They're rare. We don't coordinate hat versus
no hat, but we just on the same page today.
I feel like that bodes well. It means our synergy
is going to be just top notch today.
Speaker 1: It is that like an analog for groupthink, where we're
just gonna agree with whatever the other person says.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because that'd be pretty different, right.
Speaker 1: We're used to just disagreeing a bunch. Although even a backstory,
I was doing something that could technically turn into a podcast,
but ranking every team's three most likely players to be traded.
I had a tough time with the Warriors, so naturally
I text you and I'm like, Okay, so these are
the three I was expecting either add disc guy or
shift the order, and you can expect like, no, that's
exactly how I'd have them. And I was just like,
so we're just like completely just like on the same page.
So maybe an unsettling.
Speaker 2: Degree a little bit, a little bit or or that's
just the right answer, and we both acknowledge it's the
right answer. Let's call you that.
Speaker 1: I choose to accept that. Any overarching thoughts before we
get into this Western Conference trade deadline premer.
Speaker 2: Uh, I think how about this, Dan, I think the
West is the more interesting conference to discuss, even though
Jimmy Butler does not playing it. How about that yet?
So far?
Speaker 1: First up, Grant's Sacramento Kings. Because we're going all sorts
of orders today just based off the news and things
that could be ruined. And if Dan has to do
anything in some post editing, maybe it's born from convenience
or making his life just a little bit easier. And
especially Grant too when I text him to re record
all of this. We start with the Kings before we
get in to the vitals. I don't know how much
any of this matters. Now, Dearon Fox has made it
be known we I did a little solo shinding. So
we're gonna get Grant's thoughts here now on the Diaron
Fox like trade request, it definitely wasn't a demand. Rich
Paul informed them this is per multiple outlets now that
the Kings would be better off moving him. However, ESPN
thirteen twenty has reported Damian Barling, I believe is his name,
that Dearon Fox will only sign an extension with the
Spurs or the Kings, and so makes you know, like,
are the King's still involved here? And then of course
Sham's confirmed that report earlier on Wednesday that the Spurs
are in fact the Aaron Fox team of choice. I'll
run through their vitals very quickly, but I want Grant
thoughts on the darn Fox situation. As of now, there
are three point two million dollars below the tacks. They
owe their twenty five first to Atlanta as top twelve
protected shifts to top ten next year, and then it
becomes two seconds. They also owe a twenty thirty one
first round swap to San Antonio, so they can, in theory,
trade three first round picks, one of them being conditional
and then or less favorable excuse me, and then up
to three swaps. However, Grant, let's start what are your
thoughts on the deannon Fox situation before we get into
how it impacts what the Kings can, will, or should
do with the deadline.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's complicated. Certainly, the timing is I guess
surprising because since Doug Christie took over, they've been the
vibes have been better, and the winning has happened. Although
I think you would say, well, if all if Fox's
continued commitments to the franchise was dependent on you know,
them proving they can level up and continue to compete
and improve, and it took a run like this to
get to you know, okay, maybe they're a playoff team now,
you know, like it took that that doesn't. So in
some sense that's not surprising, especially measured against just the
like he's been there since twenty seventeen and he's seen
I think it's five head coaches and was there for
a lot of the Vladi Devots era, which is, you know,
certainly not as crazy as some of the like DeMarcus
Cousins era stuff that was happening with Mike Malone and all,
you know, but still like not a not a paragon
of like a functional organization. So I guess I I'm
not surprised. I don't blame him. I think in a
weird way, I almost like, tell me what you think
about this? Like we I think collectively we don't love
it when like Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving decide we're
going to sign with Brooklyn together because we're whatever. It
feels different when you're like, I want to go play
with that guy. He seems really good. I feel like
great things could happen there because talking about women, Yama,
I like, I understand it one and for some reason
it feels I don't know, I like that more than
just like, hey, gang, let's get together and like conspire
to sign deals on some other team. I don't know why.
I just I think I respect the the idea of like,
I'll go b number two to this generational guy. It
doesn't happen a lot, right because we don't get a
lot of whimby's, But I kind of enjoy that part
of it. It sucks for Kings fans because they're just like,
can we please have a nice thing once in a while,
and the answer seems to be no. It's pretty brutal,
but I get it. I think like if I were him,
I think I'd do the same thing and would have
done it sooner. But it's still it's rough, like because
from a fans perspective, you're like, we just went ten
and two or whatever it is, and now like, now
we're doing this, you want out. That's it's got to
sting a little bit. But yeah, I don't know. Mixed mixed,
mixed thoughts. I guess if you can't tell from my
meandering explanation there, do you fault?
Speaker 1: How much blame do you ascribe to d Aaron Fox
for this or looking at the timing because they are
eleven and four in their last fifteen This is also,
as I mentioned right out of the Clutch Sports playbook,
there's like a year in change before he hits free agency.
As I also mentioned, I still find it funny Schmidt
to a point out that in twenty nineteen on the
same exact date Emmy Davis did the same thing to
New Orleans or do you really just fall almost entirely
on the side of you kind of just said it.
He's seen a lot, been through a lot, and even
as the Kings have gotten away from hashtag Kangs, there's
always been TRACE's traces of that operational dysfunction when you
look at the structure their front office, the way the
Mike Brown extension was handled, And I'm wondering the bigger thing,
maybe not even the Mike Brown firing, but did the
franchise do enough to take that firing off of de
Aaron Fox's shoulders? Aside from kind of noting in that,
I think it was the ESPN shellburn piece that they
didn't consult with Sabonis or Fox or Derozen was thrown
in there like he should have any sort of saying
it was acting with this organization. It's like, what are
you sort of if you're playing the blame game here
is do you look at this Fox trade demand and
view it as a premature ballout In any way, I
think he's earned the right to get to this place.
Speaker 2: I think the criticism you can level at him, or
the blame you can lay at Fox's feet, is the
same you would lay at any player's feet who signed
a contract for a certain amount of time and then
wants out of it before it has expired, which is
like that always feels kind of stupid because the team
can It's the old argument, the team can trade you
whenever they want. So in theory, like just if you
sign a contract, it's not as simple as saying, like
you're Jimmy Butler, you signed that deal, You're you got
to play it out. You made an agreement Fox, you
signed this deal, you got to play it. That's just
not how it works.
Speaker 1: So that's like a butler, he's not withholding services.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, he actually has continued to play. So like
that tiny little colonel of blame, I guess you could
lay up. It's really just like this has been one
of the most like haphazardly run franchises for close to
twenty five years. Fox has been there for like seven
of those eight, almost and the constant is the management
and ownership just not making great decisions or being capricious
or chasing the wrong things. And like you mentioned this,
just like forget all the higher level stuff like find
a backup big, don't add DeMar DeRozan to a team
that has a bunch of backcourt you know what I mean.
Like we didn't hate the DeRozan move like as a
value proposition, but that's not what they needed. You everybody
would concede that. So just from like a basic roster
construction standpoint, the Kings have not done what Fox wants,
which is to take the types of swings and make
the types of moves that like lift your ceiling and
get it, make it so like a playoff Berth isn't
the pinnacle of this era, you know, like that that's
that's a fair criticism, right. The Kings haven't like knocked
any moves out of the park, so you know, great,
they've made They've done some good things. This isn't the
same as it was ten years ago because that was
like as badly as you can run an organization. But still,
if you're defending the Kings, right and you want to
lay all the blame at Fox, Fox's feet, Like, what's
your argument? I don't like he's abandoning ship, Like all right,
I mean it's sinking, Like what are you? It's not,
it's not it's not exactly powering forward, you know, in
a way that makes you confident. I guess maybe that's
the better way to put it.
Speaker 1: I've also seen and I want to know if this
stance would be defensible by the Kings, which I did
not touch upon because I didn't see it when I
was recording about the specific rumor that this wasn't necessarily
even a trade request. It was more of like just
an FYI, this is where we're at, and the Kings
are proactively shopping Fox. Is that if you're hearing the
messaging of like garon, Fox isn't happy, he doesn't think
this roster is good enough, and we're gonna get to
a point over the off season where he would request
the trade. If that's the messaging. If you're the Kings,
does it make more sense to proactively get here and
one let it leak out you're a proactively shopping Fox
or should you be doing everything in your power to
shift his perception? Again, I'm assuming that there would be
a chance that he is still willing to stick around.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know that this the willingness to stick around.
I don't know. It feels like the bridge is sort
of burned. Feels that way, but you know, you know,
you never know. I guess like, Okay, here's in one sense,
I understand the Kings, you know, kind of sort of
trying to get out ahead of this or at least
act as quickly as they can, because you look at
this trade market and every major name we've talked about
for several months is like I don't know, like how
how valuable is Jimmy Butler? How valuable is Zach Levine?
Like are we really gonna give up to first for that?
Like Bradley Bill's a negative? And then if you put
Fox on that market as the Kings, you're like, we
got we got the guy. Now, like you you should
give us three first for this? We have we have
like the if we're drafting, this is the total mixed metaphor.
But like, if you're gonna draft the available players at
this deadline, Fox is number one, right just he's twenty seven,
he's you know, in his prime. You could get the
most for him of anybody, that's actually available. Problem is
he wants to go to one team and you probably
should have known that. So if if that was like
an oversight, then you kind of blew it. But I
can understand from the King's perspective overall, like this feels done,
it feels broken. Why not just try to you know,
let's let's get this out there now, as opposed to
like we go, because then what's the rest of your
season look like if he's just there after having I
mean we've seen it with Anthony Davis and the Pelicans.
I guess it's just awkward and it sucks and you'll
probably have some some quote unquote injury arise. That's no good.
Speaker 1: So I'll get to that. But the one thing I'm wondering,
and I did mention this already, was how how much
of the openness to staying is if I make all NBA,
you can give me a three hundred and forty plus
million dollar extension. I don't think he's gonna make all NBA,
and so that's their only chance of keeping him. Then yeah,
it would make sense to be proactive. I just they
could be annoyed by the timing, just because it's so
close to the trade deadline. It does seem like they
were warning signs though, because of the previous discussions that
we know they had. But what this does do for
them that makes it more challenging is you are now
tasked with he's giving you the one team and this
hasn't been like there was also reporting that is that
he will be open to other teams. So this isn't
like a staunch one team trade demand. But the timing
of it, it's so hard for other teams to decide
whether they're going to cobble together offers, especially if they're
not on Fox's list.
Speaker 2: And I will say, I.
Speaker 1: Think you've removed at least one what some people thought
could have been a major suitor for him from the equation.
Houston has no business making a mega move in the
middle of the year, like I've seen a team mentioned
for him. They might decide, look what I'm in Thompson's
doing right now, Like he's changing directions on the ball
so fast that it looks like he's traveling forward in time.
So why would we want someone like the Aaron Fox?
But there's at least a possibility if you wait to
the offseason and they've gone through the playoff crucible with
this current group and say, oh no, we do need
someone like the Aaron Fox. But you've already like Houston
at least in my view, as a non starter. So
that's one potential, just like you know, someone even if
someone in the woodwork that could come out and drum
up the value of Fox. If you're dealing with only
one or two teams at the moment, and we're going
to talk about san Antonio a little bit, so I
don't want to go into them, but I want to
ask you, are there any teams like other than san
Antonio that you could see coming in at least fairly
aggressive for Oh no, Actually, I'm sorry. We should start here.
I think there's a right answer here as to what
should the Kings be targeting into the Aaron Fox trade?
But what how do you if they do move him?
Do you expect them to prioritize the future driven return
or is it going to be trying to maximize what
they can do in the more immediate term.
Speaker 2: That's a great question, I think I obviously I think
you and I would say you're gonna need some draft
picks and that should be the focus, because if you
lose Fox, you're not getting back a player or players
that are as good as him, and the team's not
good enough as it is, So like, what's the You're
really going to just spin the wheels for a few
more years and Sabonis then ages out eventually, and like
where are you? I mean, I feel like this is
kind of what you're alluding to, which is like, I
don't think it's a great position to be in the
business of. We will take back draft picks that belong
to the Spurs from the Spurs if you're trading him
to the Spurs, because those picks are not going to
be very good unless something whenby gets hurt. Like that's
so you need to be looking at some of those
Hawks picks, maybe getting back one of your own, like
that kind of thing. Pick redo that swap so you
don't have that twenty thirty one going out take that back.
So I don't know if that doesn't really answer your question,
because I don't know how I don't have hugely strong
feelings on like you just need a full draft package
or something. I don't know if that's available. When you've
said there's only one team I want to go to
and you don't want that team's picks. I think the
Kings probably will make something of the wrong decision and
try to get back a couple of players that just
kind of keep them where they are. Yeah, I don't
know it the whole, the whole, the really the most
complicating factor is the Spurs picks aren't going to be good,
and so what are you getting back if and when
you trade them to the Spurs it's not going to
be It shouldn't be their own picks. I don't think no.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe distant ones if you're willing to gamble
on that, but I think I think they have enough
stuff from other teams where it's you have that Bulls
pick this year, sure, Minnesota pick. You have two Hawks
picks plus if you want the right to swap with Atlanta.
So I think there's enough stuff there. I actually I'm
coming at it from this end. One. I don't think
the current front office of Monte McNair and West Wilcox
should be in charge of the darn Fox trade because
I think at this point there's probably pressure on them
to keep their jobs, and you'll now is almost the
perfect time to clean house because Doug Christie still has
the intern label. So like you're not married to a
head coach. Don't be married to the front office either,
And regardless of who's making the trade, you know, you
mentioned that it should be a draft orient in return,
maybe they go that route. They need to start over,
like this needs like it needs to be a clean
sweep and it's I'm not like keep Keegan Murray, sure,
but like it's a bonus demartin Rosen, whether it happens
now or the offseason, like you shop those guys there
shouldn't be Let's try and get players who can help
us make the playoffs now, or let's get picks that
we can then turn into players who do that Like
you're just you're not. We were having trouble with dearon
Fox where it feels like the Kings are one or
two moves away, or in theory, should be from being
something special. If you're removing if you couldn't do that
for multiple years when you had Daron Fox and Domasa
Bonus and the emergence of Keegan Murray, why do you
think that you're gonna be able to do it without
having Darn Fox. And that's what I would worry about
as a Kings fan, is that yes, starting over would suck,
but to me, that is that is not the right call.
It should be the only call.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so hard, I mean, I yeah, I we
we collectively, like in the media, I guess like romanticize
the blow it up a lot just because it seems
so easy. Let's start over. This isn't any good. But
then like we're not fans who have to think like, okay,
so for like four years now, we're just gonna be
like hoping one of these draft picks hits, like after
we just made the playoffs for the first time in
forever a couple of years ago, like we got to
go back to this. That's such a daunting proposition. It
doesn't mean and I do think I think it's the
right move. Still, it's just that's that's such a brutal
thing to have to deal with. You ask for another team,
like if I Houston makes sense, but is out the
Spurs make sense, But we've already talked about the complications there.
That'll probably be where it ends up being is Orlando,
Like should they be like coming down the pipelines. It's
we've said they need shooting. Obviously Fox doesn't provide that,
but at least like we do want a ball handler,
we do want to guard there. Does Orlando make any sense?
Or is that because that's the only other team that
sprang to mind when you asked, besides the obvious?
Speaker 1: So I think Orlando actually makes a lot of sense,
just because Fox is not the best shooter, but like
he's still shooting thirty seven percent on step back threes.
I think he's had thirty eight percent on wide open
threes this year. He should get if the concern is
what does he look like playing off the ball more?
Because we have Franz and Polo, you know, him hitting
those wide open threes should be a good Harby Jurn.
I would assume the quality of his three pointers in
Orlando would go up at least during the time he
has Franz and Polow on the floor. So I would
argue that they should absolutely be in on him. I
don't know how his current and then future salary structure
fits within it, right, Okay, we have Franz, Polo and
Jalen Sugs, So it's is Jalen so going out in
that deal? And if he is, that's not happening this season.
Another team I thought about as unless you have anything
else on Ortlanta.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say in addition to the shooting, we
harp on the Magic's pace and Fox has in the
past been a guy that is like a transition offense
by himself, So you can't like the fit the half
court fit as if he I think even with in
light of even in light of the the three point
numbers you mentioned, he you would think he would get
them up and down a little bit more than they are,
which which would help.
Speaker 1: What do you think about and I do think this
is another team that would probably want to wait until
the offseason to figure out where they were after the playoffs.
Does he make any sense for okac?
Speaker 2: Oh? Wow? I mean you do have you have similar
salary structure questions there, although it's not as far down
the line as the Magic ar because you're gonna have
to pay check and Jalen Williams and Shay and then
Fox Jay's already paid. Yeah, Fox is gonna get his
I mean, you better not have any more secondary creation problems.
If you add Deer and Fox to that team, you
would think that would solve it. He feels like he
feels like a luxury, but then like, but is he
because he does address like pretty specifically what you don't have,
which is someone that can very clearly run your offense effectively,
like sort of be the guy, whether at the second
units or with Shae. I wonder that's interesting. Do you
think though, that it's a little bit too much of
the same thing, Like you're spending so much on a
guy that really is doing a lot of what Shae
is doing, and so like, if you care about the
end of post of playoff games and they're both on
the floor together, are you like really maximizing what that
five man unit could be. I don't know. I'm just
I'm just.
Speaker 1: And would there be a similar I mean, look at
the the marginalization effect of Kegan Murray on offense with
the mart Ros and Leak Monk and Domas and Fox.
Is there any of that with Jalen Williams or Chet
Holmgren when you throw Fox into the equation?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean probably less because I think both, yeah,
Chet and Jadab can impact the game without having the
probably our best at impacting the game without having the ball.
But it's like it is reductive, but it's like there's
one it's the one ball thing, Like there's only one
basketball like you have Shay, he should have it a lot.
And then Fox also is like he can do other stuff,
but like, clearly he should have the ball a lot
if he's in the game, and that a little dim
a little bit of diminishing returns there. It is fun
to though, because Okay, so he could just be like, yeah,
we could totally, we could do that.
Speaker 1: No core players and picks, and like we'll just I again,
I'm not really an advocate. Okay, see making a move
this season, but I just they were a team. What
do you make of There's been reports that Brooklyn would
be interested, and I'm wondering how much of that is
through the lens of if he reaches twenty six free
agency rather than you know, they maybe they'd be interested
this offseason after they draft Cooper Flag or he's like whoever.
But it just doesn't seem based off their two year timeline.
In my head, I'm like, it would make sense if
he reaches free agency and they're trying to accelerate their position,
but for the next two years, I don't know what
the value of having him is for them, especially when
they would have to give up stuff to get him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because then you're talking about like his age thirty
season maybe as being when you've got barely enough surrounding
talent unless you just make another major free agent signing.
But I want to so I know you mentioned like
some of the reporting is that, oh, you know, he
might stay, and it's because of the potential for if
he makes all NBA a supermax.
Speaker 1: I'm that last part, by the way, I'm speculating on.
Speaker 2: I don't know that's totally it. That's the only reason,
like he would because but then, like, if you're the Kings,
why on earth do you want to put yourself in
that situation where the only reason the guy is staying
is because like, yeah, well you're the only team that's
going to be able to give me this massive right
raise this contract that nobody else can, and like the
second he signs that he's gonna be like I remember
that trade request. Guys, it's it's back like that. That
seems like, I think, as the Kings, what you really
can't do is try to talk yourself into the idea
that this is not over. I think you need to
operate as the Kings from the perspective of, like, he's
not part of our future. The only thing we got
to figure out is how to get the most for him. Like,
I just can't see a scenario where they where he comes,
where he comes back or plays the rest of the season,
signs that extension and is like we're good now, like right,
Like that's just so unrealistic to me.
Speaker 1: I yeah, unless there's been like a different message conveyed
than what would like it's going beyond that, where it's
I want you to make a move where I'm gone.
And if it was that, I want you to make
a move where I'm gone, and the Kings then proceeded
to shop him, it's just idiotic. But I don't like
I saw some people too saying I think there's a
world in which the Kings trade d Iron Fox and
get better. I don't see it. The two scenarios I
thought of if you were trying to just replicate some
of it is do does Miami get in as part
of a Jimmy Butler trade? And say, if they're getting
a first or two first for him or a young
player that goes to Sacramento, then they're investing Tyler Hero
and some of their own remaining draft equity to Sacramento.
Where does Tyler Hero. Let's say, in a couple first
round picks, are you at least comparable? And then in
a situation where you can continue to improve? And then
before you even answer that, like the other one would be,
is there a way to rope Zach Lavine into any
darn Fox trade and then just reunite him with Demard Rose?
And I know the way I'm presenting this is pretty clear.
I just don't think there's a scenario in which the
Kings come out in better shape after they move to
Aaron Fox. I was just curious what your thoughts were
on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a pretty tough sell. I think there's some
logic to it, Like this is a very different conversation.
If Malik Monk has not, like increasingly look like someone
you're kind of fine with as a main on ball guy.
I think Monk, actually, you know, he's not Fox, but
he he's he's like a legitimate you know, I feel okay,
if the offense is being run by him and it
involves the bonus and you have DeRozan as a bailout,
and maybe Keegan Murray's getting more looks, now, that's not
accounting for whatever else would come back with Fox and
how that might affect other guys roles. It's just I
think we still we both kind of I won't speak
for you. I still think Fox is the King's best player,
and it's hard to get better if you're trading your
best player, even if you concede that, like, yeah, maybe
there's like some spread the wealth, positive potential and some
you know there, it's not crazy, but I don't think
it's likely that they're better after they move him.
Speaker 1: Now, how does this impact their actual deadline? Is it
just they move to Aaron Fox or they don't, and
then you can't do anything else, or at least not
anything else major, because like you can't you can't trade
a first like the whole Candelows first round, but like
that's dead. You can't do that now with the Aaron
Fox on his way.
Speaker 2: Out, That to me is the clearest I would say,
it sort of puts everything else you might have done otherwise,
chase a second big like maybe try to get something
for like Kean Ellis, if you even Devin Carter, like
all the stuff we would have otherwise talked about. It's
just kind of like that's not a top the priority
list now. And I think the clearest thing is you
cannot be giving up future draft picks, especially your own,
if you're about to also trade your best player like
that just you have to. So how does it change
their death completely? It completely changes their deadline behavior.
Speaker 1: Should they're sort of stuck in stasis then a little bit?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think it becomes they're like their
two do list becomes decide whether we're trading Fox now
or later? And then if now get the best we
can for him, and then there is no third item.
It's just like you can't also go look for the
backup big if it's going to cost you assets. Like,
I just don't see how that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Well, how do you approach whether he's there? Maybe if
he's not there, it happens organically, but you owe your
pick to Atlanta top twelve protection. If you still have
him on your team, do you shut him down and
like make sure you they might keep that pick anyway,
But do you try and drive up the value of it?
Is it? Like how do you approach like what is again?
I think this is a question whether Fox is there
or not? Like what are you if he's not there?
I guess it's dependent on the return what they'll do.
But if he is there, it's that do you keep
just chugging along and trying to make the playoffs and
maybe you hope that there's a change of heart for
some reason and you get.
Speaker 2: More leverage in trade talks over the off season. I can,
I can understand the appeal of that, but I again,
I just don't think I would be too afraid to
go forward thinking this was salvageable as the Kings like,
oh if we, if we, just if we're the best
team in the West down the stretch this season, that'll
convince him. It's like, I don't. I don't think so,
because you're you're weighing this run against seven years of
his experience there.
Speaker 1: And also this run might be your like eleven to
fifteen is no joke, Like that might be the pinnacle of.
Speaker 2: Your season, right, And it's like, and where's that get you? Like?
Does is anybody looking at the Kings after that run
saying like, you know what, I kind of like him
against huston in or Okay Ce or whoever in a
in a first round series, Like I don't think so?
So yeah, yeah, I like? And also I mean this
is we talk about this with Philly all the time.
It's like you can't really tank hard enough to make
that you know, you're not gonna come out of this
with Cooper flag or anything. And then like, what's the
tank even look like? Soa Bonis is indestructible, He's gonna
play every night. Bonas is gonna set your floor at
like five hundred, and so like what do you how
do you you're trading him? You're shutting him down there, they're.
Speaker 1: Honestly there also might be like what is Daron Fox
because he's not gonna withhold services, Like he's not gonna
go with the Jimmy Butler out doesn't Like for Jimmy Butler,
there's really no value in going to Jimmy Butler out
after the trade deadline because you can't be moved like
it's over, Like the trade deadline is dead, right, he
might play What if he just plays out of his
mind because of all this makes all NBA and that
not makes him stay, but that if he makes an
all NBA team, his trade value will go through the roof,
even with just a year left on his deal and
proving like, oh, he played the good soldier even after
your request of trade I will say I've been an
advocate for this before the Fox trade request, but if
the price has actually dropped that much to where it's
okay DeRozan and Herder and Lyles and maybe there are
seconds involved, this might embolden me to be like, well,
let's just see what happens before we moved Aaron Fox
over the summer. Once we add Jimmy Butler here, who
we will also then move over the summer because he's
gonna have to pick up his player option or a
broker as sign in trade. I'm saying, if the price
has actually dropped to oh, we don't need to include
Devin Carter or like nothing, it's just the salary, maybe seconds,
no swaps, nothing, I would absolutely more, one hundred percent
do it. You're nuked anyway, right and I'm not gonna
You're not gonna lament losing Trey Lyles, DeMar deroze in
And let's say it's for nothing, and Jimmy Butler's a rent,
don't just leaves, which by the way, he won't like
he will need your help to get out. But if
he just leaves, it's all right. Like our books are cleaner.
Speaker 2: Not crazy. I think you do risk Jimmy Butler showing
up and being like, I'm not playing here.
Speaker 1: Okay, then what happens your draft pick is like, no,
right you are?
Speaker 2: I think I don't know. There's got to be like
a term for it where it's like it's already doomed
and you're just like it's just like a fuck it,
Like that's whatever, man, Let's see what happens. Uh. Let's yeah,
let's steer into the skid. Uh.
Speaker 1: I don't know what message that sends to the bonus
where it's okay, DeRozan's gone, Jimmy and Fox are angling
to maybe Jimmy wants to maybe play so well with
the two of them, they both want to stay or something.
I have let it be known. I've been Jimmy Butler
to the King's pilled since basically day one, So I'm
not the person to if the price is really drop
that low and there's not a lot of value moving
near Fox, now you kind of you're fucked anyways. Like
it's just like, why not just add another layer of
injurgue to it?
Speaker 2: Do you have anything else to add here? Should we
just move to the other potential trade partner here, which
is the Spurs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get onto to Spurs. You want to take
us through there again?
Speaker 2: This is you know, the first bullet point is like
might be able to get Aaron Fox. And then after
that we should know that they're twenty one million below
of the Tacks. They got all their own first. They
got a swap with Boston in twenty eight with top
one protection. They got to swap with Dallas or Minnesota
in thirty. They got to swap with the Kings in
twenty thirty one. That, by the way, if I'm the Kings,
that is a high priory. I'm getting that back if
I'm trading you Daron Fox. They have Atlanta's first in
twenty five, twenty six, twenty seven. The middle one's a swap.
They have Charlotte's twenty five first with lottery protection, so
that's gonna be a couple seconds. They have Chicago's twenty
five first with top ten protection. Let's see top eight
in twenty six and twenty seven. They have Minnesota's twenty
thirty one first. So, uh, if you're the Spurs, I
think this should probably be where we start before we
get into the more general deadline stuff. Do you have
what is your stance on the timing of your dearon
Fox pursuit, if we assume it's mutual interest and not
Fox just saying I would like to play with the
tall man, please, Like, what do you think the Spurs?
Is there an optimal time to pull the Can they
in fact wait and just freaking sign him in a
couple of years because they because their timelines that long.
Speaker 1: I think we've seen for the most part, if you
wait to sign them, you're not going to get them,
Like and if you do wait to sign them and
get them, it's Paul George's turning forty five and you
were able to get him because his team didn't want him.
In terms of optimal timing, I mean, what's difficult is
they're in twelfth place in the Western Conference and so
this isn't a now move for them, and so is
there just waited out until the offseason, even if you're
gonna maybe he goes somewhere else, and like, if he
goes somewhere else with the Aaron Fox, the type of
player're gonna look back and be the Wemby Wimbow is
screwed because we didn't get d Aaron Fox. I don't
know I do think there should be interest because I
don't know where you land on this. I don't view like,
I don't view them as having a primary floor general
of the future on the team. I don't consider Steph
Castle in Matt Vein of prospect.
Speaker 2: He maybe, but it's wait, like who knows with him right,
Like he could become a half dozen different types of
really good players or none. But yeah, I agree with
that for sure.
Speaker 1: Would you if you're the Spurs, like, are you considering
making this move mid season? Because it's not like I
guess it increases the likelihood you make the plane in
Wemby's year two. And I think you could also argue
if you don't have to give up your own first
round pick this year, because I go back and forth
where it's, well, shouldn't you just capitalize wherever your draft
pick lands this year and then make the trade, And
then even if you retain it into Daron Fox trade,
it's well, Daron Fox has kind of compromised the value
of that draft pick then, So I'm kind of all
over the place with regards to them.
Speaker 2: So I think it's really it's it's fascinating because we
have in similar cases and I think I have probably
in this one. It's kind of like the the Pacers
thing with like you have Haliburton last year, he's this
good now. So the Siakam trade makes sense because like
you're it's not like, because Haliburton is early in his career,
you're like trying to really time this out till he peaks,
and and you're trying to get guys in that same agement.
It's like no, no, no, he's he's this good. You you
got to start trying to win. Wemby, I think is
deserving of kind of the same treatment where it's like, yeah,
sure he's not in his prime yet, but right now,
I mean, he's an All NBA player and you probably
need to you know, why are you waiting to try
to build the best possible team around him? Not not
to say you should go sign thirty five year olds,
but like Fox is in his prime. This makes sense.
At the same time, the Spurs have this luxury because
of how young Wemby is and because of how just
asset rich they are, so where it's like, yeah, Fox
would be nice, but in the next three years aren't
There isn't there a great chance that someone as good
or better comes along that, like we can maybe we
draft that guy, maybe we trade for him instead, and
we're not on the hook for his third NBA contract
which is gonna cost a mint, you know what I mean? Like, yeah,
I could, I could understand the Spurs. That's why I ask, like,
when do you think this should go down? If the
Spurs are interested? Because I really don't know. I think
you can make the case that they should feel significant urgency,
And I think you could also make the case that
like why would why would they feel any urgency at all?
Like they've got the golden ticket, They've got wym bin Yama,
who wants to be there, who's only getting better? Like
you can actually afford to be really picky and be like, yeah,
Fox is a good fit, but I don't know do
we like what? Why not wait for the perfect one?
Why not wait for someone that's three years younger, you
know what I mean? Like, because they like okay see
or utah or whatever to use your term, Like, they
can create a market for someone if they want to,
with picks and with contracts and whatever. So I think,
just to sort of simplify it, if I'm the Spurs,
I'm happy to give up my own future first in
a package for Fox, and I think, like, I don't
know what the number of first is going to need
to be. That's going to be really interesting because it's, oh,
I want to go to one place, like, so, what's
that do to the offer? I would also be comfortable
waiting until this summer. I think if you think Fox
is gonna end up there, you don't need to be
sort of animated by the faux urgency of February sixth.
I think you can just you can. The Spurs are
in the most leveraged position possible, and they, I think
can afford to like exploit that if they want to.
Speaker 1: I mostly agree with you. I probably would even lean
towards I'm not trading for him in the middle of
the season. I like, if the cost is Jeremy sohan
salary won Atlanta first and then like a Spurs pick
and maybe that, But like, if it's if it's something
that's just so palatable, go ahead and do it. But
in all likelihood, if that deal is going to be
ultra palatable to be over the off season when he's
one year out from free agency and he's probably applying
even more pressure to the Kings after they've just missed
the playoffs again like that. If I'm the Spurs, That's
what I'm doing. But what is interesting and like a
lines of what you're saying is I still think they
should looking when you get into other needs. Now, if
you think dearon Fox is a remote possibility, maybe you're
not looking at Oh, could we get Kobe White from
Chicago's They're another type of playmaker we can grab. But
they should still be looking to upgrade the roster where
it comes to like can we get a front court
like because right now it's Wemby, it's Devin Vsell. And
then if you want to throw Steph Castle like saying
these guys like they're the future. Yeah, don't even know
if I'm prepared to say that about Steph. He's early enough,
and Spurs fans will push back. They're telling me I'm
an idiot. I know that's what they're gonna say. I
think it's early enough. He's shown enough promise where no,
not looking to move Steph Castle. But if you're talking
about in terms of long term building blocks that you
know these guys can be a part of the next
great iteration of the Spurs. Some people might not even
say vas Celle belongs there, like it's to sell for me.
Speaker 2: I think I think comparison helps because they don't have
anyone right now who you'd say, like a young guy
that's clearly uh it seems to be clearly good enough
as a second like Jalen Williams just because we haven't
talked about him in seven minutes, so I had to
bring him up. Uh, they don't have a guy that's
like Jalen Williams to Wemby's shay yet like Vasel is
not on that level Williams right, not right, and like
Castle is lots of like about him? Who knows right,
like if he never figures out how to shoot? Like
what are we talking about? So yeah? And then like
just with Spot, with Fox specifically, is is he is?
Is he almost like an insufficiently ambitious target for your
second best player if you're the Spurs, Like can you
aim higher? Like, because here's what we know about Fox?
Made an All Star game, made an All NBA team,
has basically been the best offensive player on a very
good offense, but is the best player on a team
that has been ultimately like pretty disappointing, like not all
his fault but it's not like it's it's not like
he's oh, yeah, how many how many All NBA teams
would you be prepared to say Fox is definitely making
for the balance of his career. If the over unders
zero point five, like you might think about the under,
he might not be an All NBA player going forward,
might be might not if you're the Spurs, is there
some logic and just being like, yeah, that's not good
enough where we can do better? We think, you know,
like maybe he's just not the guy for you.
Speaker 1: I think what's tough there viewing it that way? Dearon Fox.
This is the stage of his career when he becomes available,
Like these players become available, like you're not ideally somebody like, oh,
they're a little younger, they're not approaching their third contract.
The reality is you never see and when it happens,
it's like, oh, Shay was moved on his rookie deal
because no one's thought but one because the players who
are like approaching their third or four contracts. But also
he was viewed as, oh, there's no way he's a cornerstone.
So unless it's the Spurs, you think that you're gonna draft,
that's your plan to draft your number two of the future.
I think, Dearn Fox, like, maybe it gets a little better,
but like who is the player? Like again, you have
to think in terms of like not rookie deals or
even on their second contracts, and even something like if
you thought it was LaMelo ball, like okay, maybe, but
is he actually better than Daron Fox right now? The
answer is no. So I think he's good enough, and
I especially wonder now, not that they should set their
sites low on purpose for this, but it is because
he's identified you as his destination. Are you able to
have your cake and eat it too? In the sense that, well,
we didn't give up all these distance Like let's say
they still haven't mini picking in Atlanta pick after this
if they either need to add or reorient at some point,
as Daron Fox ages out, that would give you the
flexibility to do that too. I just don't when you're
looking at, okay, who's coming down the pipeline, like what
would be the better, more plausible fit then?
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's the thing. Fo one, Fox could be
your third best player. If you're the Spurs, you could
absolutely just get him now and go get somebody that's
better at some point. I think that's right. I was
playing a little bit of the Devil's advocate. The other
thing is, though, like, do we think Fox is going
to be the last guy that says I want to
go play with wemb Yama, Like there's gonna be all like,
this will not be the only time this happened. There's
gonna be other guys that are like, yeah, I'd love
to get in there and win a bunch of championships
or whatever. Like it's just that Grass is always going
to be really, really green. I think if you're a
very good player that's on a team that may not
be going where you want it to, you can look
over at the Spurs and look at all the shit
they have, all the picks, all the flexibility, and then
Wemby it's like, well, if I'm trying to win, like,
let me get there. So I think Fox is Fox
is the first to come out and really do it,
but he will not be the last. So that's just
yet another feather in the Spurs cap right now because
this will continue. There will be other guys.
Speaker 1: So I think overall, like you the Aaron Fox a
good fit. I think he's a better shooter than his numbers,
like if you could shoot thirty seven percent consistently on
step back threes, which is kind of done for multiple seasons. Yeah,
and like he's still shooting his floater hasn't been great,
over fifty four percent off floaders. I think he's a
good fit. If I'm the Spurs, I'm probably still waiting
until the offseason rather than because I just don't know
what the value of adding such a major piece for
them making. Like also you got to kind of figure out,
like though, what's going on with Chris Paul here of
it all? Is he gonna be happy coming off the bench?
I mean maybe if I'm them, I'd rather look to
add elsewhere, like to still try and continue to play
in postions. So when you look at this roster, of
course with Darren Fox wanted to go there in the backdrop, like,
what do you identify as some of their other biggest needs?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think Wemby helps mitigate this if
he if he is the kind offensive player, it looks
like he's trending toward which is to say, a spacer.
But you do want more shooting because if you have
a Fox Wemby one five, I think put spreading shooters
out around that is like good luck, Like that's just
gonna be We haven't really seen Fox play with five
out like consistently, Like what's that look like? So the
more shooting you can put around him there, I think,
the better everything might look. And just in a vacuum,
you want more shooting, like that's that that's gonna be
a need either way. If we're if we're just not
talking about Fox at all anymore, I think that's where
you start art and then after that it gets complicated
because again it's just like we're still trying to figure
out what kind of team makes sense around Wemby, Like
we have some idea of that now, but I don't.
I don't know. I don't know if I'm I'm looking
to make a ton of moves, if I'm I'm certainly
not like going crazy by, you know, if I if
it's not Fox, I don't know.
Speaker 1: If you disagree with that, No, I don't, I don't disagree.
I still look at them and it's okay, could you
find because Fox isn't gonna check this box? Like what
is the future front court partner for? Who is the
future front court partner for Wemby, you don't have them
on your Like it's not Harrison Barnes. Julia Champanni is
really good, but like you probably want to upgrade from that,
like or even if it's looking at do you want
to get better back up big than Zach Collins? So
I might look in that area. And they also just
don't have because Visella's small castle as a guard. Aside
from it, Barnes is aging out more of a cop,
like they don't have wings on this like a ton
of wings on this team. So I might look at it. Okay,
is there can we upgrade the wing spot without getting grazed?
Or can we upgrade the the backup big spot or
just get someone else in the front court who can
play alongside Wemby. Those are areas that I would look
at and see that, Okay, well what does it cost
to do that? And I wouldn't be afraid of like
trading an imminent first with Zach Collins as salary as
an example, like that's not going to derail you know,
maybe you want to keep your own first and you
don't necessarily at this point with the Jalen Johnson injury specifically,
probably don't want to give up Atlantis first either, but
like you have other like that's Charlotte, it's two second rounders, Like,
so could you do something like that? I would still
look at making upgrades in those areas.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's fair. What this is kind of
somewhat germane to the deadline conversation. But do you have
a strong opinion on like what kind of four or five,
whichever you want to call it you want next to
Wemby now going forward? Like has his shooting this year?
Because we know it's like it ain't as Zach Collins type.
It doesn't seem to be a Jeremy Sohan type, because
why would you Like just because you can't afford a
non shooter at another position doesn't mean you should do that,
you know, and if.
Speaker 1: You're gonna have them, like he should be able to
play the five.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I'm asking because I'm not really sure.
I think I think Wemby just allows you to do
whatever you want. But like, do you want like a
burly like who even is this? Do you want like
a burly four that could be someone you throw at
certain matchups that you don't want Wemby to have to
deal with underneath, like do you do you want just
another spacer so that both of your front court spots
are or your four or five spots are playing beyond
the three point line, Like I just I don't know.
He affords you opportunities to have all kinds of different players,
and that's why I think it's an interesting question.
Speaker 1: I think starting along, when you're looking at starting or
closing alongside him, you probably want, like what's the better
version of Pee Harrison Barnes or Julian CHAMPENNI like at
that four spot. Okay, but I've thought about them as
just in terms of this is now right by the
then like what would it cost to take the flyer
on Robert Williams the third he could play?
Speaker 2: So that's what's interesting, right because you can you could
do that, because you can have Wimby guard fours or whatever.
Williams spent a lot of time guarding furs or guarding
nobody and just like flying around, you can afford it.
That's what makes it so interesting, is like any you know,
there's been a lot of talk about like conventional fives
being available at this deadline, and you would all those
spurs don't need that. It's like, well they could though,
like they really could go that route if they wanted to.
Speaker 1: If you could do this without having to give up
like first, like even Vucevic, if you're sending out Zach
Collins' salary, you probably don't. I would bring him off
the bench. I wouldn't play him and Wentby together a ton,
but you could.
Speaker 2: Yep, and you know what, you could play him together
because Wemby is gonna mitigate all the defensive issues right.
Speaker 1: Now too, So that's you retain five out will be
super huge apparently.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just fascinating. So yeah, again, the fox things hang.
The Fox thing hangs over everything else. We might discuss
about the spurs, but there are like interesting non Fox angles.
Speaker 1: You have a reference by the way of how they
should like go about like a front court partner like for.
Speaker 2: The nation is based on what they've tried that I
haven't loved, which is Collins like a spacer that is
just kind of not really a spacer. And then Sohn,
who's like, well, the defense, we can get away with
putting a one dimensional guy out there, a limited guy
out there because we have Wemby. I think the only
thing I'm sure about is that Just because Wemby allows
you to have like compromised players at other spots, it
doesn't mean you should. I think you should be greedy
and say like, yeah, we want another five that can
space because we can get away with it.
Speaker 1: I will say, I think maybe the ideal archetype of player.
He's been so injured in his career, but to put
next to Wemby might be like Jalen Johnson.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not quite like.
Speaker 1: A floor spacer, but good enough to where he is.
May he don't want to play him at the five
a ton that's fine, but like he's certainly gonna He's
more dynamic offensively than a Jeremy Sohn, not as good defensively,
but like still valuable there. But that feels like the ideal,
Like he feels more ideal than a Jeremy so Hand
type next to one.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I think that, And I think one of
the prerequisites for me would be you don't have to
be like a you know, like as U Yabasele, like
whide as you are tall guy, but I want like heft,
I think I want like I want bulk, but it
needs to come with like yeah he can space and
yeah he can move his feet like that kind of thing.
I just want like someone to offset certain matchups where
it's like Wemby's just gonna it's not ideal for him
to be banging with Zubots all the time or Yokic
or whatever.
Speaker 1: Aaron Gordon next to wemy that would be a good one.
Perfect yeah there, but you so you wouldn't want to
skew you. I'm sorry Spenser's time, but it's fascinating discussion
of like not him now, but like the Paul George,
the Kawhi Leonard, the the Kevin Durant of like, okay,
they're like kind of wings, but there are also fours,
like you want someone who can slide up to the
five theoretically.
Speaker 2: I think so, although like the idea of just a
bunch of six nine guys around Wemby that can do
everything is also fun. So I think what we've settled
on is like you're kind of have a lot of
good ways to go.
Speaker 1: Also, now you have a built an excuse, not because
I think people mostly probably outside of San Antonio, but
they want this birds to do something aggressive because wodn't
be so good. Now you kind of have the built
in excuse of like they're waiting on the de Aaron
Fox situations.
Speaker 2: They couldn't do anything too dramatic.
Speaker 1: Now, I didn't mention this though, because I just thought
of it. But when you're talking about other players are
gonna do it, is they're like a rush now, Like fuck,
Dearon Fox is trying to get the Santace. Devin Booker's
looking at this, is he like, well, actually, like I
want to go to Santa is like this on rush
of players who could be thinking about a trade soon
that are then gonna do it this offseason because Dearon
Fox is throwing like the the first punch.
Speaker 2: And if you're really smart, you're like, well, there's only
one more max salary slot there. I gotta get that
before it's before it gets stopped up. Yeah, there's there's
now there's new urgency to get there. You gotta hurry up.
Speaker 1: I favor that. That's Spurs interesting as always. Another team
that's interesting the Phoenix Suns grant so they can trade
up to three first round picks. Now they are twenty
eight point two million dollars into the second aprin They
also have grant a twenty twenty five second that they
can trade from Denver or Philly. It's the less favorable,
but they can send out four draft picks. Now they
are still linked to Jimmy Butler, which will be predicated
on moving Bradley Beal, who has no trade clause and
per the latest reporting, would basically be open to any
team that is good and if he's going to a
team that's not good, they can't be somewhere cold.
Speaker 2: And also just not Memphis. That's that's Jimmy Butler.
Speaker 1: Sorry, he might be okay with Memphis.
Speaker 2: I don't know why I remember with him.
Speaker 1: There's nothing new on the Jimmy Butler front. I think
we're both in the camp of Phoenix. Is in so
deep that if you can get Jimmy Butler and Bradley
Beal's gonna wave his no trade cause you just do
it right.
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, now, I mean that's where you are.
Speaker 1: What's interesting though, is let's say they don't get Jimmy Butler,
Like what are the other needs for this team? Or
like what are they gonna do? And I actually, so
I read something. This is not my idea. I hadn't
even thought about it. Uh. Sam Vessini over at the
Athletic proposed a use of Nurkics for Patrick Williams trade.
So it's like Chicago's just getting out from the Williams
deal three years early, and then Phoenix is taking a
chance on We don't need him to do anything on offense.
We're just gonna hope that he plays really well on defense.
What do you think of something like that? And by
the way, they've given up no first round picks in
that scenario, and I would not give up any first
round picks in that scenario.
Speaker 2: I mean, so, I think the first thing I thought was,
if I'm the Bulls, I'm doing that, which is probably
a bad sign for the Sun's side of it, just
because I think you're you're just underwater on the Patrick
Williams deal and and Nurkic's is fewer years at similar money.
I mean, the Sun say.
Speaker 1: If you're gonna because you have Nick Richards, who's been
great for Phoenix. By the way, I still would argue
that they could use an upgrade at the five. I agree,
But if your idea is like, well, we kind of
want to play small, so like Kevin Duranta, like having
Patrick Williams on the team just functionally on defense like
that him and done like it gives you a lot
of optionality.
Speaker 2: It does.
Speaker 1: I like it for both teams. I'm not gonna lie now.
Did I have Patrick Williams number two on my big
board when he was drafted?
Speaker 2: Remember things like that? Nobody. I think if we're if
we just suspend the idea of Butler and just talk
about the Suns as like a regular basketball team, it's
pretty clear to me that they you're still doing the
same things that we wanted them to do over the
off season, which is like you love a center that
you knew could close. You love more size on the
wings so you don't have like Beal needing to guard
a real score like that's that's not great, or a
point guard, you know, if you're talking about closing lineups
that don't have Tyas Jones on the floor, that kind
of thing. So it's it's pretty pretty vanilla, like it's
pretty normal team building stuff. While the specter of like
gross inflexibility and expensiveness and age like hangover. But I
don't really know how much we can talk about them
independent of the Butler stuff, just because that's it's kind
of like the box and sac ormento thing.
Speaker 1: How many of these picks, because look, there's a chance,
just because of how bad it's gotten for Jimmy Butler,
I would guess that they're not going to have to
send out more than two of these first round picks
and a Jimmy Butler. Okay, so you're left with a
first round pick. Is that enough? Assuming it's not this
year's first round pick, because we know that's going to
be twenty nine or thirty? Like, is that enough to
get off the use of Nurkic money while getting back
someone who will at least play even if you do, like,
you're not gonna trade use of Nurkic and that twenty
seven first and get Isaiah Stewart. I understand that, but
like someone who will at least play for you more
than Nurkic is now, which is to say at all.
Speaker 2: Is let's put a name to it. If you're the
Blazers and it's nurkicen one of those for Robert Williams,
I think you're saying no, right, I at least, like,
I don't know if one is enough? What do you
think about that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you probably have to find the right team, which
I don't know what the right team would necessarily.
Speaker 2: Be well, so what if it's like we're just trying
to upgrade the center spot even though is that still
Nick Richards has been good? But but if it's if
it's Nurkic and one of those firsts for does Mitchell
Robinson fit? Does he make less than Nurkic? It's really close.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he makes he wakes way less than Nurkic.
Speaker 2: What's Nurkic like nineteen eighteen.
Speaker 1: He said he's in the eighteens. Will we in the
nineteens next year?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So Robinson's comfortably under that is the Knicks aren't
doing that. The Knicks aren't taking Nurkic and a bad
first for Mitchell Robinson, are they?
Speaker 1: No, they're not. I mean that would be interesting because
now you have this Mitche Robbins is not playing right now,
so now.
Speaker 2: There's use of Nurkic. Yeah, but you have this.
Speaker 1: Massive expiring contract to where like so now and now
you have a first to go out shopping with over
the office. That's if it was two, I don't know
why you go after Mitchell Robinson. But if it's two,
that's too much for Mitchell Robinson. I mean, mis Robbs
is not playing. That's too much for Robert Williams. How
many picks would it take for the trade construction to
be Nurkic goes back to Portland, you get Timani Kamara
and Robert Williams. The third is that all three? Is
that what it would take it?
Speaker 2: I mean, it's definitely at least two. And if if
it has to be all three, then are this I
guess Butler is not happening obviously. Uh, that feels like, well,
those are shitty first though, so like.
Speaker 1: Let's say they're twenty seven and twenty nine that third first?
Speaker 2: I think maybe because like Kamara is ironically Kamara is
exactly what the sons I think need or he's he's
pretty close to it and they had him and then
they didn't. Yeah, three, it's so tough. I don't know.
Maybe maybe we're wasting time because those three firsts. I
know it's an oversimplification. I know everybody has said this,
but like, you're not you're not doing that. You're not
you're not splitting up that one first into three with
like use of Nurkic top of mind, Like, right, you're
doing that, I hope because the heat said we're gonna
need X for but I think right, Like, I know
that's like a week old kind of way of thinking,
but like that that just feels like what those are
for that?
Speaker 1: Or maybe are they viewing it through the lens of
and maybe they're not upgrading the center rotation through this,
But I think they need wings more than anything else.
Even with Ryan donn and Royce O'Neil, there would be
is it attaching him to Grace and Allen?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well that's the other thing is if it's like
if this wasn't for Butler, then presumably yeah, you're gonna
need one or two for Nurkicchen, one or two for Allen,
and that's how you go get your your wing upgrades.
Maybe I just don't know. I don't know how, Like
I just I don't know how this ends without those
at least two of those going to Miami for Butler,
and then I don't know what one of them gets
you attached to your bad salary that you don't want.
Speaker 1: I think you could definitely because I don't know view
grayceon Allen as I know he has like years left
in his extension, I don't know view him as just
completely underwater salary. So I think Grayson Allen in a
first round pick, could probably do something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, do I also kind of like
Grayson Allen and he's not.
Speaker 1: Where like three point volume is not necessarily assured with
Phoenix still even though they were shooting more to start
the year. He is really important. But like, and I
guess if Bradley Beal is going out, but like, if
Bradley Beal is still on your team, that probably does
somewhat diminish the importance of Grayson Allen for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the other thing to think about too,
is like if you're a team that is in the
market for shooting specialists, like you can do it cheaper,
like you can go I don't know if they trade him,
but like Malik Beasley is someone that's gonna cost a
lot less and like, you know, you're not I don't
think Grayson Allen is like a top anybody's list, good
as he's been as a shooter of unbelievable last year
as a shooter, just given the cost, I don't know
that he's someone you're you're like really circling in your
in your trade deadline prep.
Speaker 1: No, I don't think, Like I don't think you could attach,
like what would it take to get Stewart from the
Pistons especially, I mean they only have really Duran and
Reid as their other bigs unless you like Clipman, So
I don't like that's too first and Grayson Allen for
Isaiah Stewart probably rings a little hollow for something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is too. And I also think
like Stewart is someone that we talk about because so
many teams would want him. But then when it's like
what do you flip it around? Like why would Detroit
trade him? Like what, he's really good? Like, I don't
understand why they'd be willing to move him for less
than like a no brainer return.
Speaker 1: Do you think that they could get Jay Huff or
Santi al Dama from Memphis? Now, you're not lopping off
salary as part of that, unless you're taking back other salary,
Like I don't know what salary Memphis. That's like maybe
Memphis wants to get rid of Marcus Smart, but I
don't know that they're taking on use of Neurkice and
how many picks from one of those bigs, And that's
that's too much money coming back. So but just because
Memphis has Edie Jaron Jackson, Junior, Jay Huff, Santi al Dama,
Brandon Clark, and Jay Huff is so cheap. He just
doesn't play as much like Santi Aldama's in most Improved
in six minut of the Year conversations right now?
Speaker 2: But how how much are they going to pay him?
Speaker 1: I think I default to the market for bigs and
especially restricted for agents. Isn't that robust? But like those
might be names, but again, then you're not If you're
doing that, you're not serving the other purpose of that's
a singular purpose of we want that big. It's not
the dual purpose of we've also shed money that we
don't want.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. I mean, if you
had to guess right now, is is Jimmy Butler just
gonna end up in Phoenix before this deadline?
Speaker 1: Well, here's my whole thing is I would say yes
if you told me that Miami will take on Bradley Beal.
Speaker 2: Which it seems like they won't because they really don't
want salary beyond this year, which is like, well.
Speaker 1: Now they've opened it up that they want they'll take
on salary through next season. But that also doesn't help
you with Beale.
Speaker 2: Well, and we've talked about this too. The Heat need
to make the playoffs.
Speaker 1: Like so, I mean BeO probably does help them do
that as opposed to I don't know what else is
out there for Butler right now. We didn't do this exercise,
so we have to circle back to it most likely
player to be traded on the we'll start there.
Speaker 2: We got I think even though he makes a lot,
I think it's Nurkic.
Speaker 1: That was my pick too, because well, you want.
Speaker 2: To say Beale, but then no trade clause is just
sitting there like he can just make it not happen.
Speaker 1: And I still I do not buy. I think he
might accept a trade there. I don't understand Milwaukee's interest
in him report it at all.
Speaker 2: It's they just don't need that player, you know what
I mean? I don't. I don't get.
Speaker 1: I might have understood it if it wasn't maybe if
they were still getting the twenty seven and twenty nine picks,
But it's like I understood it more even when if
it's like, oh, if they think they're getting Phoenix's twenty
thirty one, Chris Middleton's better for them if he's healthy,
then Bradley Beal would be and I don't know what
their defense looks like with both him and Dame there then.
So that's why I picked Nurkis too, is because I
think at the end, like you, I think you could
attach to first to Nurkic and like you're at least
getting off that money, and then someone who will.
Speaker 2: Play for you. Yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 1: Who would be your most likely player to be traded
for the Kings?
Speaker 2: I think? Well, to be consistent, I think i'd have
to say Fox because I don't I mean, you could
say like someone like Keon Ellis, which we didn't really
even talk about at all, but that's more just like
I can understand why a lot of teams would be
interested in ke On Ellis, like Denver, which we'll talk about.
I'll just go Fox, even though I don't know what
percentage chance likelihood I put on it.
Speaker 1: I think it has to be Fox because why are
you moving ke On Ellis at this point without worst water?
Why are you moving Keon Ellis on the contract he's
on in general, like what is their return? And you
like you can't make those decisions. I mean maybe if
you if you're dead set on Fox is leaving and
we're going to rebuild. That's when you capitalize off the
peak of ke on ELS's value. But we know the
Kings are going to think that way. Most likely players
be traded for San Antonio.
Speaker 2: Mmm, is it Barnes. I think it's Zach Collins.
Speaker 1: Okay, they just have that money to match something, include
some type of sweeper unless they're taking back like because
they because of all that room under the tax, they
can take back like because it's sixteen million. I think
they can take back twenty three and change in Zach
Collins trade.
Speaker 2: I don't know who's looking to.
Speaker 1: Save money, but you use Zach Collins, Revouch, Tory Craig
save the balls a bunch of money. Maybe that only
costs you seconds.
Speaker 2: To get Yeah, yeah, I could see that.
Speaker 1: Our next team is your team, mister Hughes. Take us
through the Golden State Warriors here.
Speaker 2: I got nothing to say, nothing interesting happening. So the
Warriors are just here. The particulars. They're six million into
the tax. They're like three hundred grand into the first apron.
They have a twenty thirty first going to Washington with
protection one through twenty. That'll be a twenty thirty. Second,
if not conveyed, they can still trade if they're in
the buying mode up to three firsts, which because of
some other protections, it can be their twenty five or
twenty six and their twenty six or twenty seven, and
then twenty thirty the basically not the protected portion of that.
So twenty one through thirty that's confusing to read and
say of their twenty thirty first. We have talked a
lot about the Warriors and whether they should or shouldn't
be looking to make significant additions. It is interesting that
as the Butler price has come down, seemingly it's a
little easier to justify. And I don't know how far
it would have to come down for me to get
on board, but like, what's what does that mean? Does
that mean you're not having because the outgoing salary for
any significant Warriors trade still has to be Andrew Wiggins
or Draymond Green And if it means those guys and
some expirings with no firsts or with no kaminga, is
that what the price has come down means? And then
in that case, like what are we really talking about?
It's so in a same in some ways, like the
Warriors are in a similar position. But as these guys
that are available just don't get traded, things change a
little bit because maybe the calculus of like, oh, it's
not worth it because they can't get good enough, Maybe
that changes a little bit. Right, I'm really more like
trying to talk myself into getting behind some action at
some point here.
Speaker 1: No, shouldn't. They're too bad. They missed the window. This
should have been done, you know, not for nothing, but
the way that we criticize the Kings for like being
fake in on Pascal siaka minojiananob the Warrior.
Speaker 2: You got that multiple occasions.
Speaker 1: Over the years, And there was also a way to
straddle the middle ground, which they did not do. They
decided that it has to be an all or nothing proposition,
even though they don't have the type of assets that
are going to get you in all proposition. While there
are other teams in the running now the Jimmy Butler stuff.
If the price has dropped low enough to like, I
understand Andrew Wiggins has had a good year, if you're
not dead set on being like great for steps remaining years.
If that's the cost of a flyer on Jimmy Butler.
Speaker 2: You pay it.
Speaker 1: That is not I'm sorry, that should just be maybe
you're more likely to catch lightning in a bottle with
Jimmy Butler as you're number two than you are as
Andrew Wigs is what your number he's not even their
number two offensive option.
Speaker 2: Really unfortunately sometimes he is, which is the problem. But yeah, no,
I I even I can get on board with that.
If the if you're talking ceiling, if you're talking about like,
it's not lip service. We are gonna do everything within
the edge of like being reasonably possible to put the
best team on the floor with the highest ceiling next
around steph now and next year I or at least
just forget next year. We'll talk about now then one
hundred percent, like Jimmy Butler gives you a better chance
of like, oh my god, they won two playoff rounds
like that. That than Andrew Wiggins says, I. I'm on
board with that.
Speaker 1: Now in terms of and then you would attach additional
salaries and you have to kind of like at that point,
if you're trading Andrew Wiggins, does it make Gary Payton
the second more important and you're gaming it? So do
we have any updates? On the shrewder injury. I saw
he left the court.
Speaker 2: I haven't seen any.
Speaker 1: I am probably if you're getting Jimmy Butler trying to
include his salary in that deal though, So this trade
happens on February fifth or six, I want to ask
you are you willing to include anything additional? And I'll
tell you where my stance is because it might surprise you.
If because the Warriors are so bad, well, are so
not great?
Speaker 2: Mediocre?
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're mediocre. I'm not including much now. If you
told me it was a protected twenty twenty five first
round pick, that immediately turns into something else done.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What I find more interesting is what if it's not
the pick, what if it's Jonathan Kaminga.
Speaker 2: I think that gets harder because it doesn't it feel
to you like the fact that he hasn't been I mean,
he's been hurt, so it's kind of like taking a
lot of the discussion, you know, off the table. The
fact that he's still on the team and you haven't
heard any rumblings at all is like I think maybe
they're just going to re sign him, like are there
you know, let him go to restrictive free agency and
match something that's more likely. Now I think I'm well,
if it's between, oh, would you as a sweetener, even
though it's not the right term exactly include cominga or
that protected twenty five. First you're talking about I'm giving
up the first way before I'm giving upkaminga. I don't
know if I'm doing both though, like.
Speaker 1: And then as if that's the alternative, because I think
I look at it through this is the warrior stance
has puzzled to me because they're so concerned about not
mortgaging their future, which would make sense if they had
the post Steph building block already in place. You cannot
sell me on Jonathan Mingo being that player, And so
now I'm looking at it as, Okay, you get to
keep your imminent first round picks. Those are going to
be mediocre. They're probably not going to turn into building box.
What you're really saying is rather hoping we get lucky
in kind of the post lottery or late lottery, which
again is fine, or we're just really not gonna start
thinking about the future until Steph is gone or one's
out or is really declining again also fine. But like,
if that's your stance, I think that makes Jonathan camining
A more expendable, and so because of what he's gonna
cost in his next deal for the duration of the
STEPH window, I would rather pay Jimmy Butler than Jonathan Kmingo,
maybe because it's shorter term. Now, if you're telling me
it's the if the terms are protected, twenty twenty five
first round pick then immediately turns into something else or cominga.
There's not a choice. It's the pick. But if the
heater only willing to do the deal, or if you
can only get the deal done. If because Kmena is
also valuable as like an actual salary piece, because Andre
Rigans isn't making a ton relative to Jimmy Butler. So
I would be open to moving Kaminga or that pick
if I'm the Warriors because of where I'm at now,
this would have been a different conversation and they followed
my lead, which they should have. Let's all just agree,
I would give up one or the other, but I
wouldn't give up both. And that's as deep. It's Wiggins
one of those two assets other salaries. That's as deep
as into the This is short of Giannis Attentakupo demanding
a trade and only wanting the Warriors or something that's
as deep as into the buyer as well that I'm
going looking at my assets stash if I'm home.
Speaker 2: In the state. Now, are you thinking this way with
the idea being that Butler is on the team beyond
this season? Or is it just if all I know
I'm getting is this half season rental or does cause
you're talking about like comparing having to pay Butler beyond
this year versus Kaminga beyond this year, like I would
need to be I don't know, I'm not comfortable with
either of the either of those propositions really, but like
I would be, you gotta know that Butler's staying right,
and I don't know how you can know that for sure,
given I mean, like.
Speaker 1: That's intel you if he's if he's thinking about leaving,
then you just don't trade. Yeah, it would be my stance.
And by the way, anything I do if I'm the
Warriors at this point, like I'm duck in the tax
like a.
Speaker 2: Thing, which is easy though, right because you've got all
this expiring salary you can just send out. If that's
all this deadline amounts to, that's probably disappointing, but like,
if you're talking about most likely scenarios, just like dumping
GP two or Looney somewhere to duck the tax is like,
that's probably pretty high on the likelihood scale, and you.
Speaker 1: Can even while taking on Jimmy Butler's money, Like there's
a way for you to figure out to do it
as well. I'm still probably doing that just to like, Okay,
like this because even if you get Jimmy Butler, I
think that maybe spurs a plane push you can get
to the playoffs. I just I'm very curious. This is
all to say of how low the Jimmy Butler asking
price is dry because it didn't seem like it was
super high to begin with, or at least they weren't
going to get much to begin with. So most likely
player to be traded here.
Speaker 2: I will say, uh, Gary Payne the second. I think
I think you could make a case for Looney, Kyle Anderson,
Buddy Healed. I feel like he's the most like they
could Luny. It's close, it could be Loony, but I'll
go GP two.
Speaker 1: I think GP two's the right answer, especially if you
think Andrew Wiggins is still gonna be I think just
Gary pay this is like basically a wing for you. Yeah,
defensively and as of right now, you don't necessarily need
that with Moody and Wiggins. And if you think is
going to be healthy. If I will say, if I
could move Kyle Anderson without having to include a weeder,
I would absolutely do it.
Speaker 2: He would be choice age and he's got two more
years after this one low number. But it's just like,
I don't I think he's the He's just not someone
you need on that's someone that.
Speaker 1: Might become valuable, like if you know that might be
part of the value for them, Like oh you get
off a him and Jimmy Butler trade too, like that
helps them a little bit. Anything else on them? Do
you think the most likely outcome to me would be
that they try to duck attacks?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then we didn't really talk about the Vouchovic
of it all. But like I keep seeing that twenty
five first going out for no way, man, it's gonna
be seconds or nothing if.
Speaker 1: It's top twenty five protected and then turns into something else. Sure,
go right at Chicago. If you want the optics of
we go to first Road.
Speaker 2: Right, we got you gotta want to be able to
say you got it first.
Speaker 1: After the Golden State Warriors, we are on to a
team bench. I thought it was gonna be less active,
but the Derek Lively injury on top of the Maxi
Kleiba injury on top of Daniel Gafford was dealing with
Dwight Pollocks. She's dealing with some hip stuff. The marriage
are pretty banged up in the front court. But let's
get to their vitals. Five point two million dollars into
the there's a blank on the screen, but it's the
tax twenty twenty seven first round pick, oh to Charlotte
top two protected. Then it becomes Miami's twenty eight second.
They have their twenty twenty eight first round pick going
to OKC as part of a swap. Their twenty twenty
nine first round pick we'll head to Houston or Brooklyn,
and their twenty thirty first round pick we'll head to
San Antonio. Ken head to San Antonio as part of
a swap. Basically, they can still trade a twenty twenty
five first a twenty twenty six swap, and they're twenty
thirty one first. If they're looking to do something spicy.
I am a big believer grant that this team is
just way better than its record shows because they've been
so banged up. But if you're the Mavericks, how are
you approaching this trade deadline?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So that I agree with you in that informs
my thoughts because the most glaring immediate need is a
big because you're just your starters out. Gafford is fine,
but not someone that you can play thirty seven minutes
a night. Kleiba is injured, I don't know if you
mentioned that, and Powell is even if he's healthy, is
like really just like an adult in the locker room
kind of kind of thing. So like knowing that, I
still think I would rather go try to find another PJ.
Washington type because I'm assuming that as long as they
get in, they'll have Lively back, hopefully for the playoffs,
and and like then you're just you're okay there. The
bigger need is I think you could just one. You
can never have too many of them. But the bigger
need I think is just another guy that's going to
make open threes in guard. So that's like that's risky
because what if Lively is not healthy and you didn't
go get another big and you just head into the
playoffs with like one serviceable center that I'm just gambling
a little bit and saying I'd rather get another wing
for you know, just because you you're always going to
need those guys on this particular team.
Speaker 1: I would I think I would agree with you. I'm
wondering if, like I do, want they could still use
a different kind of big just because cause if it's PJ.
Gaffer or you're assuming Lively's healthy, I guess that's enough.
But like at this point, it's okay with the injuries
that Lively's dealt with, and we know, like you just
can't really count on Kleiba anymore from a health perspective.
The two names I thought of of kind of that
would fulfill the quota that you were talking about. What
would it take to get Chris Bouchet and Akbaji from Toronto?
Because you can match the money pretty easily.
Speaker 2: I think if you're getting both are I think you've
probably got to give up one of those firsts, don't
you think? Probly?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's fair. I'm like, but you could
protect this year's first just against disaster just because of
all the injuries. Yeah, I might do it, Like if
Kleba is the outgoing salary too, and then you figure out,
like who do you want the other salary to be
as part of that? I mean, I mean O Max
is kind of like a lottery ticket at this point,
So I don't think I'm including him in that deal
unless it's you could do it with like seconds and
no first like then sure we could talk about O Max.
But is it if it's Kleba and Dwight power hole
for Bouchet and or Kleeba and Dante exem maybe mas
fans want to keep him around for when he But
if it's like one of those two guys, or markif Morris,
I think we'll get you there, because what's Kleba at
He's eleven?
Speaker 2: He was eleven, and.
Speaker 1: So markif Morris is like two thirteen, So that gets
you to thirteen, So that would come close. I think
I might actually make it work with Toronto, because what
does a bogie make He's at four, Bouche's at ten
point eight. That's fourteen point eight, seriocal It might need
to be the but they are under the first apron
as of right now.
Speaker 2: There we're just rope in. That's close enough to her. Yeah,
we'll rope a third team in with some fake second
going somewhere. If you needed to really make it happen.
I think yeah, I think a twenty five first that
is pretty I mean it's well, that's the thing with
Dallas is like that would be.
Speaker 1: I think it's fair. Sorry, I was gonna say Lotto protected.
Speaker 2: And then yeah, and then what I mean it has.
Speaker 1: To turn into seconds because you have that twenty seven
first going to Charlotte, but your betting is Toronto that
it would convey. They might view, they might say, we
don't want to first, we'd rather have ak Bagi, but
like this is third year they kind of think about
in that contract, and he's someone like he's been pretty
good this year. That's why I don't know if Mass
fans have like paid attention to him, but having him
and Bouchet, who is on like which hadn't be shooting
like fifty percent from three over his last fifteen or
sixteen games. Yeah, the types of shots he's gonna be getting,
like when the Mass are fully healthy, he's my sirens almost.
So maybe is that trade egregious?
Speaker 2: Like are you not?
Speaker 1: But you know I think that is you got off
of Kleebla's money in that.
Speaker 2: I think I think if anybody's maybe the way to
look at it is this. I think if anybody's hesitating
on that, it's Toronto. So by definition that means it
is probably a pretty good deal for the mouse, but
not not out of the realm of possibility at all.
Speaker 1: Now, if they're thinking smaller and they say, you know what,
because we have Quentin Grimes and Klay Thompson and Naji Marshall, like,
are we really gonna how much is ak Bagie gonna play?
How much are we gonna need that type of wing help?
I think getting a Chris Bouchet like in a back
should just be like, if you're giving up Kleba as
the matching salary, even with that year left on his deal,
I don't think that should cost you first round equity
to get like off right, you could probably get seconds
and clean Bouchet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think, so is there any way they
manage all this and also duck the tax that it would?
Speaker 1: So? I mean when you look at like if they
need to shed six million dollars in salary basically and
you're bringing back what, let's say fifteen as part of
Bouchet and uh ak Baji if that's the If it's Bouchet,
I feel like it'd be pretty easy to get there.
It's like we'll include another contract own in Toronto that's expiring,
and then just between Mark Eith Morris being on his minimum.
I don't think it's impossible. But how do you get
to twenty one million dollars as Dallas It would have
to be so Powell and Cleba gets you to fifteen,
and then if you're markif Morris, that's another two that's
I don't think you can get. Like if you did,
you'd be like, okaytexm is he just getting out of
here as well? It'd be tight to duct attacks and
get ak Bajiem Bouchet you could feasibly get. You could
certainly get Akbagie and Junct Attack. He's so cheap, but
I think you could do.
Speaker 2: You'll probably do one or.
Speaker 1: The other and realistically duct attacks if you're them. Is
that with Kyrie hitting free agency, with Luca's next deal
coming up, is that something you're making a priority.
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably, I don't it can't be that high a priority.
I was thinking, if you can turn Kleiba into someone
that makes like four or five million, and you sweet
incentivize that with a second or something like that. I
just don't know, like how it doesn't feel smart to
be prioritizing let's get under the tax and I mean,
because it's Kleiba, it's like, well, he's not going to
be an integral piece of the rotation, so maybe there's
some logic there. It doesn't feel like the type of
move a team that made the finals and like we
both agree could could maybe get there again.
Speaker 1: I guess if you're gonna end up doing nothing and
it's oh, we need to get rid of Dwight Powell
and Markith Morris and we ducked attacks that way, Yeah,
that's probably fine, yea. Or do you think that this
team do you think that they have the ability to
do nothing because of what we really think that they
could be if everybody's.
Speaker 2: Healthy, Do they have the ability to do that?
Speaker 1: Would you be if you're a mass fan or if
you're just like, do you want this team to do
something to address one or two of the knees that
we sort of out later? Do you think that because
of the conceptual depth that they have at full strength,
because look, there were some just neither of the players
we mentioned is gonna help this. Like they lost. They
were winning the Luga don Lugadontrich minutes he goes down.
They've now lost the non Luga Dootrich minutes. Of course,
different type of sample size because you're going up against
like opposing team's best units a lot without him. But
do you think that they have that they're talented enough
to say, like, we're just gonna sit tight and hope
we get healthy.
Speaker 2: I think you have to say that. I think you
have to have that as an option because you know,
because of what they did last year and because of
how good they have looked in short bursts when Luca
was like looking fit and like healthy and they had
a relatively full rotation. Yeah, this is one of those
situations where like we have to talk about potential ideas
for all these teams, and then we always gloss over
the whole like, yeah, doing nothing is an option, and
maybe we're not giving that enough credence With this team
in particular, I.
Speaker 1: Still think I would, like, I don't think they're gonna
do nothing, So I think if they end up not
being like buyers, they're gonna try to duct attacks. So
I don't think they'll end up doing nothing. I would
like to see them. Could they do seconds in Cleveland?
Get like another big in there. I mean, if it
gets you a wing. I'm just assuming it won't. That's
why I'm not mentioning that. But like the Bouchet deal
to me, makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that one.
Speaker 1: We go to the Denver Nuggets. They are eleven point
seven million dollars into the tax five point seven million
dollars into the first apron they I'm not gonna go.
If you're watching on YouTube, I have all their picks
that are owed moving forward on the screen. They can
still trade their twenty thirty one first round or just
has to be conditional upon their twenty five, twenty seven,
and twenty nine first rounders conveying to Orlando, OKC and
OKA see that order. They also have three swaps to trade,
not nothing when you're looking at the out years of
twenty eight and thirty. Of course, twenty twenty six probably
worthless unless it's going to the Thunder. Might consider like
exercise and met swap h grant. What are you looking at? Like?
What do you've used? This team's biggest need entering the deadline.
Speaker 2: I mean, let's hit the checklist. Like one is, can
you turn I don't know if it's a need. Can
you make Zeke Nausey become someone that you're gonna play
and have some value in your rotation? Another big behind
Jokic even though as we talk about, fairly off and
like Aaron Gordon will probably play a backup center quite
a bit and it matters. Yeah, yeah, like it's still
I think you still just if we're talking about needs,
that's a need. You just you don't have a capable
backup big for Jokic, just another another This is the
first time we've said three and D wing so far.
That's a record if we're if that's if you didn't
just say it for Dallas, probably probably to use a
different like a different descriptor like they need a Yeah,
I probably did actually say three and D wing. Yeah,
And you know, I don't know if you have any
other glaring needs like they just it's the story with
Denver is the inflexibility and the difficulty of pulling anything
off given their lack of assets and apron induced issues.
So like, I don't know if you have another another
need to talk about. I'm all ears, but then like
maybe we really do just need to talk about like
what's actually possible, like what the constraints are, because that
is the story for them.
Speaker 1: I do think what's interesting is that they've been playing
in like a vacuum so much better than they kind
of were at the start of the season. I think
that even more than a three and D wing, I'd
probably lean into offensive versatility and be like, is there
a better version of what Julian Strowther's kind of doing
right now? Like they need a capslock shooter aside from
Michael Porter junior, Julian Strauther's been playing better. Do you
trust him in the playoffs? And so I would couch
it with caps lock shooter who would crack your postseason
rotation without without hesitation, because I think you get enough
of like they're not really have the three, but like
you don't want to skew too far towards defense when
you have Brown and Peyton, Watson and even Gordon in there.
But what can they do at this point? It's just
the first of all, they're limited, Like we know Yokic
isn't going anywhere, Jamal Murray, Naron Gordon are trade ineligible.
I know people float around Michael Porter Junior trades, but
like I just said, I want them to get a
capslock shooter.
Speaker 2: Are you the trades are only capslock.
Speaker 1: Shooter and then get who I think it's what I
would be trying to do, and like, let me know
if you agree or if you just think it's like
ride this out. I'm trying to see, like, all right,
what can these swaps? Can they get us off of
Dario Sharitch and or Zeke Najy for someone who would
play where it's how many swaps would you give to
Charlotte to get Cody Martin.
Speaker 2: For Zeke Naji Hmm. That's such a low level move.
Speaker 1: Notable about this team unless they do something different. They
have zero second round picks to trade right now, which
is also what makes their situations.
Speaker 2: So that's the thing. So any swap feels like too much,
But if that's what you got, that's what I was thinking.
I guess I do one. I wouldn't go more than
one if if I'm trying to get a player like
Cody Martin, but like you could do, you could do,
say let's just involve the Pistons because we have to
because of the cash space. Like Sarich and Nause for
like in a swap for Simoni Fontechio or something something
like that, Like I don't.
Speaker 1: So that's that's interesting. So you need two swaps for that.
Speaker 2: By the way, I think you would have to go dumping.
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty six does sorry, twenty eight and thirty because
I don't think twenty I mean, Detroit's pretty good, but
they're not gonna think So you would have to go
twenty eight and twenty thirty swaps with Sharich and naj
for Simoni Fontechio. I would Probably it's tough because of
Simoni Fontachio closing games.
Speaker 2: Probably no either are those other two guys?
Speaker 1: Uh? If if you can do one swap with Zeke
Najy for Code Martin, I would do that for sure.
I'm assuming any of the swaps is just like unless
you're including all three, like it's not twenty twenty six,
like teams are not gonna Maybe it's for the optic six. Oh,
Charlotte got twenty six and twenty eight swaps from Denver,
like for the optics of it.
Speaker 2: Do you think it's likely they do that?
Speaker 1: I never would do it. I don't think he should
do something like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I should. I kind of don't. As glaring as
it is that you gotta do something with Nause to
turn him into a player, like any kind of first round.
It just doesn't it feel like insane to be using
a first round, especially when we have so few like
a first round asset, to hopefully get someone that might
play ten minutes instead of zero. Like that's a wild
that's such a desperate thing to me.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I get that, but I'm like, yeah,
and you know what, Cody Martin doesn't really fulfill any
of the needs that we outlay. I think he'd be
useful for them, like the def and like something. But yeah,
that's a great for Somemoni. Font Takio is interesting though,
because he's he's more of his percentages down, but he's
more of the caps lock shooter and has the size
to do well on defense. I don't necessarily know why
Detroit would do that unless they're just like, well, we're
not making a buye move, so what do you want.
Teo hasn't played it necessarily a ton this year, but
like with Tim Hardaway, Junior on an expiring deal, like
keep becomes important. I would absolutely give up two swaps
to get Somemoticon Takio though.
Speaker 2: And the other thing too, is like, unless as another team,
you think it's likely that Jokic leaves like Denver's picks
are still gonna Like, you're what are the odds you
exercise that swap?
Speaker 1: What if you're not giving up a player? And Denver's like,
we're gonna duck the tax and Zeke Najy dariosars two
swaps just into Detroit.
Speaker 2: Just yeah, oh man, what a tough You can't you
can't do that. If you're you can't do.
Speaker 1: That, all right, you get a second round pick back.
Speaker 2: I still don't. Just I'm so uncomfortable using a first
shround asset to do something so seemingly small time. But
I mean they are where they are, They've got the
assets they've got, Like, if you're trying to improve the team,
you just got to use what you have. But I
still I'm wildly uncomfortable with that.
Speaker 1: The other thing they could do we haven't mentioned it
is we've talked a lot about Oh, like they're they
already didn't pay KCP. They're not paying all of the youngsters,
Like you're not paying Brown Watson and Strother and then
also keeping Eric Gordon, Jamal Murray, Michael Porter Junior, Nicolajokisch.
So what you if you actually wanted to do something,
is there one who would be the youngster that you
would trade? And I really think we have to make
this a tougher decision because the answer is Julian Strother.
But if you're looking to like really sweeten a package,
would you prefer as the nuggets to move Peyton Watson
or Brown as the attachment to like the the money
deal which is sarag and.
Speaker 2: Zignagi man Brown is just more helpful. Now, I could
still imagine a team saying Watson's the one we want. Like,
so if you want to get this done, gets like
Watson with whatever you think his ceiling is, like, he
needs to be the guy. So I guess if I'm Denver,
I guess I'm more willing to make Watson the guy
I'm trading. I don't feel great about either one of
them because they're just so short on players. You could
even like Squint and see it.
Speaker 1: Might also depend on who's coming back. Sure trade for
DENNI Avia, I think you probably feel more comfortable giving
up Watson in that scenario just because.
Speaker 2: Of Yeah, because similar positions, like you're you're addressing the
depth ish, Yeah, do you think it's Watson like in
a vacuum? Are you more comfortable trading Watson than Brown?
Speaker 1: Brown is the better player? I think Peyton Watson still
is the higher ceiling.
Speaker 2: That's what I think.
Speaker 1: And I think just because he has another cost controlled year,
I might actually be more comfortable trading Brown. It would
really just depend on the return. It's okay if you're
getting someone who could actually maybe close for you that
it like like what if that there's no way for
them to get to them? Most say what if that
got them Cam Johnson, But there's no way for them.
Speaker 2: To get to the twenty three million can't get there?
Speaker 1: Ridiculous. So that's the other thing is like I don't
have the name for them, like we threw out names,
but like none of them are no brainers for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So most likely player to be traded.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say Dario Sharich just because because Ivlacho Tanchar
has an implicit no trade so I can't and he's
he's Yokic's homie, So I'm gonna say no, Or is
it just Jaylen Picket trying to wipe some salary off
the ledger.
Speaker 2: I think it's probably Sorrich. I mean, you want to
say it would be easier to say Nase if well, actually,
if you move Sarich, that does not get you under
the first apron because it's a difference of about a
million dollars four point seven million in salary for Sarch
and they're about five point seven over. So like functionally,
you should be trying to move Nase's eight point eight
because then that theoretically opens up other moves for you.
Speaker 1: I guess I think you would have to hope can
you do something like Picket Sharch and then I think
you can give up the I know the optics are terrible,
but if you gave like a twenty twenty six swap
to like what team is doing, like if it's Detroit
that decided just as an example, or it's a team
that can take stars into like an exception, Like I
think you could justify doing something like that. But I
don't even like if you attach Pick or even hunter
Tyson to dari or Saraze, I don't know what team
is big, Yeah will do that.
Speaker 2: Who's the last guy making as relatively little as Zeke
Nagy that has seemed less tradable. You know what I mean,
it's eight It's like it's eight point eight million dollars
and it's like, ah, he's toxic, you know what wants it.
Speaker 1: It was fascinating because those deals don't technically age that poorly,
but like they signed him to that before they were
ever playing him, and then they just proceeded to never
consistently play him even though they were kind of there
was like two at least two consecutive offseas with like
everyone like z Nag's.
Speaker 2: Read it comes like he's coming.
Speaker 1: And I even I even thought the deal was fine
when they signed it. We like, yeah, I'm not good
to say that I was out in front of this,
but yeah, that's the challenge there for them. So who
do we said a lot is most likely to be
traded Charage, I'm.
Speaker 2: Gonna say sorry, it just seems like Nause is inexplicably
like just untradeable.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go just for variety sake, Gentle and Pickett
because also the optics, because they're gonna have to include
something to get off Sharage to then have to like
grease the wheels of another salary dump of a player
you just signed because you gave him a player option.
It's just Calum Booth hasn't coming back from that. I
don't belie boy our next team. I feel like they
should be quick.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the Houston Rockets, they're ten point six million
under the tax. They can trade up the four first rounders. Notably,
we can just go through it quickly. They have a
twenty twenty five. They can swap their twenty five for
the Thunders if they want to, or Phoenix they have
a twenty twenty seven swap available as well. With Brooklyn
they have the Suns twenty seven first outright, they have
the more favorable twenty twenty nine first of Dallas or
Phoenix also have the option to swap that pick for
the less favorable It's just like they got a million picks.
That's the takeaway here. The Rockets have said they're not
interested in making a big swing. Raphaelstone said that a
couple of months ago. It has just been reiterated. I
think Tim McMahon reported a couple of days ago of
ESPN that like he's asked around and GM's are just
like no, yeah, they're serious. The Rockets really aren't. It's
not a joke. They really are just gonna hang on
and see what this core mature is into. So if
we take that at face value, then it's like, you know,
their needs are what they are. We've talked about their
offense quite a bit. We can get into more depth there,
but then you're just really what you're talking about are
like the Jock Landells of the world, and like the
Jeff Greens and Jay Shawn Tate's like, what do you
maybe turn those guys into if a swap is not
I mean a swap, if a big trade is not
on the table. So one, are you on board slash?
Do you buy the we're not gonna do anything crazy?
And two, whatever you think about that, what would what
should they be targeting if they're going to do anything
at all?
Speaker 1: So I buy that they're not going to do They're
number two in the West.
Speaker 2: Like, do you think that's the right decision? I kind
of do, But I.
Speaker 1: Just's if just recalibring over the offseason, you're gonna open
up more moves that way, because Jalen Green and Alprinch
and Goon not saying they're going to trade either of them,
but their salaries are more movable. And you also, you're
also at that point it's okay, like Tara East and
Jabari Smith, you and your extension eligible, you have am
and toomps and you can't wait more coming in the
rear view. You're just you're better equipped to make more decisions.
There's the Fred Van Fleet team option at that point.
So I think waiting is the right call. But they're
also because they're so far under the tax and just
with the new the new trade matching rules benefit teams
that are under the tax. Where's just like if you're
sending out and they can do this a seven and
a half million dollar salary or it's cheaper, they can
think back more than twice as much in that that
might have value to where teams just if they're looking
to cut money, and if they're gonna do that, they're
not gonna get like a down the stretch offensive option,
but like a shooter maybe cracks the rotation more than
Reed Shepherd has this year.
Speaker 2: Is that's what they play at all, right, And like.
Speaker 1: You have the job, landown money, not I'm guaranteed in
the next year you have Jeff Green and you have
Jay Shaun Tait as expiring salary, It's like you can
do a bunch of different things, and like even in
Jeff Green, so he's making more than seven and a
half million, what is Jeff Green at now?
Speaker 2: He's at like not is he not? Nine point six?
Speaker 1: Nine point six as an example, they can take back
that plus seven point five million on It's like, now
you're talking about seventeen million dollar player. I don't I'm
not sitting here saying, oh, I know which team is
gonna give up that. But like if Miami is like
kind of retinkering, like you get Duncan Robinson for giving
up basically nothing and maybe seconds, and then you have
a salary that you can then roll into next year
to trade if you want to.
Speaker 2: This is a Cam Johnson team. If they want to
be easy, like you can offer exclusively expiring salary and
picks if you want to do that.
Speaker 1: I just you're okay with them giving I do agree
that that might be the one where it's it's like, okay,
he's so plug and play. You might like he's not
taking the ball away from anybody, but they give up
two for it's gonna cost you two first.
Speaker 2: Round picks right. I mean, I'm just saying. I'm saying,
if the Rockets want to do that like easy, like
no problem. I don't know if they should, but it's
just like that, that's what I wouldn't Well, would you
call that like a big swing. I don't think so.
I think that's more of like a booker.
Speaker 1: I think two first round picks counts as at least
a medium size.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's not a check swing. They're actually it's actually
going to be a straight Yeah. I think that's right.
I mean you said it already. This team is second
in the West, and like things seem like Aman Thompson
is playing incredibly well, was so good the other night,
and it's just been consistently really good. Like you, still,
the targets are still like how do we make the
half court offense better? Because their overall offense is fine,
it's just it's offensive rebounds and transition and free throws
and stuff. That's those are the targets. I don't even
know how urgent that stuff is because you're so good
at everything else, you know, and.
Speaker 1: It's also you know, you want to win a playoff series.
But the whole point is like you almost want to
see yourself as you are going to the playoffs and
what it looks like, and then make decisions from there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you want to win this, You're right, you want
to win the series, but like also valuable is finding
out why you lost and and then you can make
all the off season stuff you're talking about make more suit.
Speaker 1: To be fair, I do think this will be in
an Orlando Magic situation where they lose exactly as we
think they're gonna lose, and then it's like, well they
couldn't they just trade it like another shooter type and
see what Yeah.
Speaker 2: There, which which okay, like we're we think that, but
at least we'll know, you know. And and again they're
so just the year over. I guess it's three two
plus years now, the leaps have just been they're ahead
of schedule, like they can afford to be patient like this.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, so maybe they take a miniature swing, but
I don't think they have to. And I probably would
take the miniature swing just for like a shooter, but
they're not in a position where they have to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, most likely player to be traded real quick before
we get the man.
Speaker 1: I'm so, is it wrong? I normally would have said
jockland now, but is it wrong to say Jayshon Tate
just because the benefit of Jocqulanda would be you could
just guarantee his salary to use as part of a
trade next year. So I'm gonna go with Jayshon Tate
even though he provides more on court value than a
land I'll even a Jeff Green.
Speaker 2: I think I was gonna rule out Landale for that
reason is you can, like Evan forty at him and
just be like, guess what, you're still here if paid, Yeah,
you're exactly good for you. I all just to be different,
I'll just say Jeff Green, even though I think they
probably value is a lot of leadership and stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'd be funny that they're gonna trade Josh Lando.
We're both wrong. It'll be a great would be the
first time the Los Angeles Clippers. So they have two
point five million dollars into the tax. My prediction before
we get anything is that they will not be paying
at tax this year. And if they do, I don't
know whether that's dumb or if Steve Clifford just really
Steve Clifford, Oh my god, Steve Bomber just really doesn't
give a shit, which I kind of respect, but they
should probably duck the tax. They can trade they have,
They can trade their twenty or twenty thirty one first,
and they can then trade, depending on what they're doing
with that, the twenty thirty or twenty thirty one swap.
I guess if they wanted to, they could just trade
two swaps. I don't know, that'd be a weird trade.
And then they have seconds. They have a twenty three
thirty second it's a less favorable of their own and Utah's,
and then a twenty thirty one second. Uh, biggest need
for me. Curse you agree, Like, let's get someone else
in there who could generate and make shots.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's I mean, I think that's right.
I think you know, the offense has not been the
strength of this team. It's like, I guess I would
say it's impressive that Harden has been able to do
what he's done, even though like objectively Harden has had
an inefficient season and all that stuff. It's just the
lift is super heavy. I think it's that. If it's
not that, it's a different kind of center behind it
eats the Zubats. I think we're then we get into
the Olynic and Bouchet type spacers. I think would be
the The other thing you want to look at as
the Clippers.
Speaker 1: Is there be like I'm trying to think of, because
finding what they need because doesn't have to be a
big name, because you do have if KWHI, if you
trust that he's gonna be healthy, James Harden, the stuff
Norman Powell has done this year, it could be like
just someone who's better than Bones Highland Slash, Kevin Porter
Junior minutes that you've seen this season.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: What names necessarily spring to mind there without maybe taking
like bigger swings.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they want your oh go ahead. I was
just saying you're inclined to want to use the Tucker
salary on kind of anything that you're gonna do, because
after that it's like, are the innetraded Terrence man? Like
I don't they seem to really just never be willing
to do that. I don't know the first as like
a Jordan Clarkson level player, like, well, I think that's
that's maybe out of your price range, right, like more
than you want to pay, especially if you're trying to
duck that tax, which is just that two point five
million makes a difference if you're dealing with PJ. Tucker's
eleven million going out.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I think if it came down to it, you
could just say bone Tiland and that twenty thirty second
less favorable second. That'll duck the tacks if a team
just takes him. Yeah, I think you could do that.
I was wondering, would you do Terrence Man and PJ.
Tucker for Lonzo Ball? That doesn't I don't think it
quite gets you out of the tax because Lonzo balls
make a actually Lonzo ball my.
Speaker 2: More than the two of them combined.
Speaker 1: Hold, please let me check, because I keep thinking he's
at twenty, But isn't he actually hat like twenty two
and a half.
Speaker 2: I had twenty like twenty point five in my head,
but that's probably wrong.
Speaker 1: Well, either way, so they make about twenty three million
combined Man and Tucker or like twenty two point nine,
and Lonzo ball is twenty one point four. So you
don't duct attacks, but like you do shed money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can still do the bones for whatever trade too,
if you want to get under the tacks, Like you say.
Speaker 1: The argument against doing that would be how many minutes
is Lonzo Ball gonna play? But also, do you want
someone who's more of like a half court like shot
generator rather than getting you like organized in transition or
just pushing the ball throwing his heads.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie. I kind of love that, I think,
I mean, you would do that, I think with an
eye towards obviously resigning Lonzo. Yeah, I g He's definitely
not the like point of attack initiator that we're talking about,
but he is like a really great version of the
next best thing health being assumed in all that because
like he will just make the next pass and that
that's that's got real value in a half court said,
even though like you're right, his value is as like
the guy making hit aheads and the guy you know,
transition stuff. But I I just don't think Tucker obviously
is like a just a is dead money to you
as the Clippers. And then I think Ball gives you
more of what you need than Man does, even if
Man is obviously the better health bet all that stuff, the.
Speaker 1: Same team as a lot of like lower body degeneration.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I'm just so happy that Ball is
like actually playing it I just I want him to
be somewhere that he helps, you know that, like he matters.
Speaker 1: I wonder too, if there was like a PJ. Tucker
for Cody Martin type deal, like PJ. Tucker in a
second for Cody Martin because he can do some initiation
and you're ducking the tacks in that scenario too, I think,
just barely, but you are ducky it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I just I guess then the question is, well,
we could just jump PJ. Tuckers the most slightly player
to be traded because that he's got a big enough
number and they have zero use for him as an
actual basketball player. What are you needing? We've their assets
are limited, like is Tucker and you can't I don't
know who the guy is. You're giving up with Tucker
to justify a first or getting back for Tucker to
justify a first, So like is Tucker in a second?
What are we what are we talking about?
Speaker 1: I think if you were like well, in terms of
return at that point, it might be like Cody Martin,
I think would be this like Tucker in a twenty
thirty one second, Cody Martin's probably and Charlotte might say, well,
we'd rather just have Cody Martin, Like, yeah, Tucker's expiring,
so he's innocuous, but he's almost more like it almost
makes more sense as part of a larger deal, where
like teams might just have a ton of interest in.
Speaker 2: Terrence Man, Broll is.
Speaker 1: Just gonna be a little bit. He's gonna fluctuate I
think forever with the Clippers, depending on who's available.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tucker on his own is I don't know. Yeah,
I think you're right the more we talk about it
is it's gonna have to be Tucker and Man. If
you're really doing anything and do the you're.
Speaker 1: Getting somebody who has money, which Cody Martin does, but
it's not guaranteed. But you're getting someone who has guaranteed
money that the other team either doesn't want or would
just be okay getting rid of for seconds because you're not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know that you could.
Speaker 1: If there's a name out there that would inspire me
as the Clippers to give up a first like a
realistic like if Kobe White and you're gonna give up
like one of your out year first plus I mean
Tucker and Man and then like something is someone else
going back? I think Man for does Man works straight
up for him? It doesn't regardless, Like maybe something like
that would get you there, But there's no Kobe White's
at twelve. So it have to be like Man and
salary X plus a first for Kobe White, or it
had to be Tucker and salary x plus a first
for Kobe White, and that would be somewhat intriguing. But
I don't know if the Bulls would do that. If
it was Man in the first, I'm not gonna lie
is the Bulls, I'd probably consider it like as a
twenty thirty or twenty thirty one first, But yeah, I
kind of don't think the Clippers would.
Speaker 2: Can like do it? Can we just talk about how
impressed it is that the c we've we're framing everything
about the Clippers as them being buyers coming from where
they came from to start the year. That's fun, And
I will.
Speaker 1: Say to that end, I don't it'll be hard to
address what we think is their biggest need. And so
I really do think it'd be realistic to Tucker one
or two of those seconds and like, why would in
Toronto give you Chris Bouchet? Yeah at this point, Yeah,
so like something like along those lines would be good
for them. How about the other Los Angeles team? Grant
ready to take us through them.
Speaker 2: I'll do it. So the Lakers are fourteen point six
million into the tax, three and a half million below
the second apron. They have a twenty twenty fy five
first headed to Atlanta, a twenty seven first to Utah
with top four protections that becomes the twenty seven second.
They are able to trade their twenty nine and thirty
one first and swaps in the even years twenty six,
twenty eight, and thirty as well as their own twenty
twenty five second and the Clippers twenty twenty five seconds.
So not exactly asset poor, not really in position to
make like the best offer for or whoever they might
want to go after, but certainly capable of making some additions.
I think so. Anthony Anthony Davis would say their biggest
need is a center, so he doesn't have to play center.
Speaker 1: Can we talk about how funny that was? So?
Speaker 2: Can we talk about how stupid that is? Like you
just can't the Lakers can't. Who's who's shooting? Like? How
what's your spacing look like? With three four five as
lebron ad and a five that's not Yushevich. If it's
Route then maybe.
Speaker 1: But I do find it funny though that so Lakers
are linked to all these other big like Jonas Valentunas
is on their radar, then it's oh, the Lakers are
moving off making a deal. Is Anthony Davis comes out
and said something immediately, the reporting is Lakers are ramping
up their efforts to come and get a big and look,
I honestly hope that Anthony Davis is just this is
a bit at this point, or maybe he just wants
like someone behind him who's not Jackson Hayes, which I
totally understand, but that that's not their biggest need. It's
it's one of their needs because Anthony Davis has identified
it as such a backup big man. Sure, but a
big man to get a d to slide down to
the four where he will never be closing like who
maybe Vouch like you're closing games with him and vouchs
together like with Lebron. I good luck on defense, I suppose,
I don't know, but I will say Athony Davis has
done enough defense of heavy lifting that I do think
he's kind of like earned. If I'm gonna live, but
I really hope this is a bit from him.
Speaker 2: But he is a center. He is a center. Like
I just I don't. I can't. I get it. I
get it when it's like I'm trying to think of
a better example. If if like I don't think he
ever did it, but if PJ. Tucker was like, I'm
not playing center, I think PJ. Tucker was like, this
is awesome. And then like if Draymond Green says I
can't hold up over a full season playing center, it's like, one,
we know that's kind of true and too like, I
get it, you're six foot six and a half. Like
when Anthony Davis says it, it's just like, I I
understand you don't prefer it, but you must see that
your team cannot be what it needs to be if
you're not playing center, Like it's just anyway that it's
a a beside point well.
Speaker 1: Not but the actual biggest need grant, Can I.
Speaker 2: Just say not that it's another like playmaker because Austin Reeves,
I'm enjoying the point guard stylings of Austin Reeves. I
think it still would be very helpful if they had Well,
this has been the issue since D'Angel Russell was there
and which he's not anymore, is like a primary initiator
that is not going to give back a bunch of
stuff on defense and or is good enough in that
role that you can stomach giving back some on defense.
And then again, like Dorian Finney Smith is kind of
the model of like another guy that is gonna be
able to defend multiple positions and make open threes. I
think those are your two main things for them.
Speaker 1: I like the way that Austin Reeves has played, and
now that Dangel Russell's gone, I like a zach Lavine
trade for them more than ever.
Speaker 2: I've always liked it.
Speaker 1: If we all we both always liked it, but now
I'm just sort of like, give them the money like
Gabe Vinzit, Jared Vanderbilt, Ruby, Hodg mooresn't have to be
involved in that. And if it takes, like if you
could structure it where it's the first round pick like
you did with Utah, it's top four protected or something,
and then it turns in like it's done, it's done,
I would do that trade.
Speaker 2: If I'm la.
Speaker 1: I know that's like you're kind of splitting the baby
at that point, and but I like, I like that
trade for them a lot.
Speaker 2: If you can get Zach Levine for one first and
salary that you don't really care about, I think you're
almost obligated to do that as a Lakers. I think
it's like the price is too good. It's you know
what I mean? Even now, the price was probably even
better if you've done this a year ago and just
had some foresight and hoped he was gonna get healthy.
But right, a one first for a guy that's just
an incredibly good offensive player that that isn't going to
be the initiator you want, but is like, is immediately
your best pure scorer? Like I just I don't know
why you don't do that.
Speaker 1: Well because he can't play center.
Speaker 2: Zach Lavin doesn't want to play center either. That's the
hang up here.
Speaker 1: I'm actually trying to do this math in real time,
but I've kind of wondered as like would they be
so I don't even know what the word would be.
But if they're gonna get picks back as part of this, like,
why aren't they being mentioned as like a Bradley Beal team.
Speaker 2: Well, okay, let's let's figure that out. What's the so
Bradley can you make they're getting those the shitty three
first from from the Suns.
Speaker 1: They're getting two of them or something like that. They're
facilitating the Jimmy Butler trading and I guess helping a conversation.
There's probably just no realistic, financial functional way for them
to do it because right now I've included Dawrin Phinney
Smith can't go out, but I have ruly gave Vins,
Jared Vanderbilt, Jallenhood Chafino is forty two point six million.
How shy of Bradley Beal's salary.
Speaker 2: Is that he's like right at fifty fifty and change this.
Speaker 1: Year, So they would have to do like Max Christie
or Austin Reeves, which you can't like. That's not where
Max fissy'sen actually playing pretty well for them too, So
that's why they're not be mentioned as a Bradley Beilo.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, you wouldn't think the difference between levie
salary and his is that con significant, but it actually
it actually is.
Speaker 1: You know, they run into a problem because we're making
jokes about the center spot, but it's like even a
Boots trade, it was only gonna cost you seconds, and
then like the contracts you want to send out, nobody
wants the contracts the Lakers want to send out. Right,
they're viewing, I would say, with Jared Vanderbilt being injured
so much and Gabe Vinson specifically, they're viewing taking on
those deals as part of the value they're providing to
the Lakers. And so then you get into the discussion
of well, what else can you give us? And they
only have two seconds to trade, so they have their
own twenty twenty five second and the Clippers is twenty
twenty five second. Neither of those are like, you know,
they could include swaps. I guess if they want to
do something like that, But that's that's an issue they're
running into well, because it's like when Washington even do
Jonas valancoutas for Dave Vincent and one of those seconds,
is that something that they would do?
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe I think, But if I'm Washington, I'm like,
I think I can just get expiring money or more
for Valancee this next year, Like why do I want
Gabe Vince? You know what I mean? Like it's I
guess maybe that that really you're absolutely right, Like if
if even one of like Vincent Vanderbilt. Just throw Hachimura
in there, even though I think he's just a better
player than either of those guys. If even one of
those we're expiring, it's a very different conversation. But because
every single one of those guys has money next year,
it's just like, yeah, you're as the Lakers, You're like,
what are you really offering with those guys. You're not
offering like salary relief. It's just we'll take back worse money,
I guess, or money you want less and you'll for first.
I don't know. It's just they they have a lot
of salaries that are obviously tradable. They don't have a
lot of salaries that are obviously tradable for positive value,
just because there's they go into next year.
Speaker 1: If you're Toronto, are those two seconds attached to either
one of Actually, I don't think I think Vincent would.
They both might require more money going out. I think
that's so the late gay. Vincent's at eleven more than
Bouchet and jar Vannerbilts at ten point seven, which is
probably I think it's a little less than Bouchet. But
are those two seconds and Vincent is probably the one
they'd prefer just because he has less time left on
his deal? Are you doing that?
Speaker 2: I mean? What were there reports that Toronto was thinking
about bringing Bouchet back on another dal Sure.
Speaker 1: He's really good, but they have Kelly Olink, they have
Yaka peerl they have Scottie Barnes. Even like if you
don't view Chris Bouchet as like a pure five for you,
I mean the Lakers could consider like would you do
it for a link? Like are you more inclined to
do that? As like it would have to be Hood
Schaffino those two seconds and then one of those other salaries.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's your expiring salary they got who Chaffino? They
declined his option.
Speaker 1: That helped the Lakers shed some payroll too, Like that
might be really and like Bouchet he he would be
him or maybe even a linic. I don't know that
you would, but like that would be I'd be okay
with that is like can you sell it to AD's
Like look, we got another big because I even like
that more more than like Vouch because like Bouchet specifically
where it's okay, like he could kind of do more
than like is gonna do what?
Speaker 2: On defense? For you rebound. Yeah, that's defense, the right
defensive rebound. That's it. He's otherwise gonna hurt you.
Speaker 1: And Olynic actually does none of that. So like Bouchet
would do like like he'd give you a little bit
more optionality there defensively, don't. He's not necessarily the greatest
defender except between my my ears and by my own eyes.
So do you expect them to do anything like it?
At this point, we just expecting them. They'll probably get
a reserve big type to play kate ad and move on.
Speaker 2: It feels like a Valance Unist or whatever type of thing.
I think. I don't as much as I want the
Levine thing to happen, I just I think it's gonna
be another center and it'll be Vincent going out, or
and probably not Hatshumura, because I think they actually still
he has like real uses, and I don't think Vanderbilt
is someone that other teams want on the books going forward,
so that that most likely out.
Speaker 1: I'm assuming if it's Reddish, if it's Jackson Hayes are
Reddish and Hood Chaffino, or if it's just maybe two
of those guys, two of those three plus those two
seconds for Dayron Sharp or the that's saying probably know, I.
Speaker 2: Don't know you think Reddish has any like flyer value anymore.
And now he's on his like seventh team and every
every team seems to think they can figure him out.
Speaker 1: Maybe there's a chance that Nicks will give up a
first round pick for him.
Speaker 2: I think, I think if I'm Brooklyn, I actually I am,
Brooklyn's one of the few teams where I could justify
like Reddish actually being kind of intriguing, because like, what
do you got to lose? And you know, the upside
is enough teams have been convinced of his upside that
there might be something there still, but like.
Speaker 1: Dyren Sharp's expiring, they pay class. I ultimately don't think
it's enough. But that would be like I'm trying to
just think of like the cheap bo bigs that they get,
Like I'm sure maybe the Clippers would give them mobamba at.
Whoever the Lakers sent back as a repeat of the
Zubax trade probably turns into like a borderline All.
Speaker 2: Star what's dop? What's doop wreath gonna cost you? Something
like that?
Speaker 1: I mean, you could definitely get him for one of
those seconds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you if it's chaino until the money
just comes off in a second for wreath. Maybe I
don't know.
Speaker 1: Would Ad be okay with that?
Speaker 2: Imagine enough of a center.
Speaker 1: They did get Doryan Phinney Smith, who to date is
the best player that's been traded. Uh so there's that, Like,
imagine they go through the deadline and it's just like
we got to opreath.
Speaker 2: Yeah tough. Look, our next team.
Speaker 1: Is my team and they are the Memphis Grizzlies. They're
I guess they were in on the wall. Let's do
this first. They're one point eight million dollars below the
tax and as a note, they're not paying the tax.
Everybody I don't want to hear I've heard it from like, no,
if they're not, they're not paying attacks. Let's move on.
They control all their own first. I'm curious to see
how many they would move because going beyond twenty twenty
five was a deal breaker for them and the dory
Infinny Smith sweepstakes. However, them going after dory Phinney Smith
does at least prove that they're being active. Is that
their biggest need? Do you think it's like they have
Gg Jackson back now and they've just been like they're
so deep everybody still like Vince Williams and Marcus Smart
are still injured. Does that give you that as their
biggest need is just you know, they have Jalen Wells,
they have Gg Jackson, but you want it upgrade in
that three and D type spot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want someone bigger than Wells. That is gonna
be you know, you throw at the bigger for bigger
wings and bigger forwards. As good as well as has been.
I just think he's not quite it doesn't quite have
the size. And then like I guess it's you know,
the theory of Marcus Smart is kind of what you want,
but it's just you can't count on him as being
kind of the.
Speaker 1: Other thing, too, is like it falls to Wells that
it's just like who is there? Who are you comfortable
by saying like that guy's gonna guard point of attack
in the playoffs right now? Some people might say Scottie
Pippen Junr. I guess, but that's just I don't know.
Speaker 2: He's too small. I mean he's small too, Like you're
not great on ones, I don't love him on twos,
I don't love Wells on a lot of threes, even
though that is what he's had to do, which is
probably why he should win Rooie the Year because he's
been way better at that than he has a right
to be. But just a bit a big wing. That's
that you can throw it like when you go when
you see I was gonna say Jason Tatum, but I
don't know if the Grizzes are making the finals, but
like someone to throw at the Jason Tatums of the
world is what you're looking for here?
Speaker 1: You know who I would kind of like for them
VI well, but they were like, wasn't they reporting? That's
that we do know Jimmy Butlers want to go there,
but that they'd be in on him anyway. I wouldn't
hate him here. I don't know what it does to
their spacing, because that's something else they can stand to do,
is drive up the value of their or their efficiency
of their half ford offense. Uh but I think uh
Vic Crachi for me, like he's sneakily like six seven
six ' eight can do some things on defense. His
floor spacing is like kind of a fly by night thing,
but he could do some ball handling for you. I
don't know what you give them, just like Theirs. That's like,
could you do in Atlanta? I don't know what their
aims are now post jam and Johnson injury. They don't
control their own first round picks. But is there's something
to be done as Memphis where Vic Cragy's so cheap?
Are you taking back something else from Atlanta like a
Larry Nance junior or I don't know, if you can
get Garrison Matthews. I mean, if you got Garrison Matthews
and uh Vic Cragie in the same trade, I think
that would.
Speaker 2: Actually help them.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, like I guess Zeller just a
salary filler and you're moving who is Memphis? Like, I
don't I don't know, like Conchar maybe maybe that would
do something with like some second round compensation there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean like with with the Hawks, I mean
Crazy does a fair amount of ball handling, and that's
a need for them too, you know, like so they.
Speaker 1: Their season's over was really my like, but you're right,
they don't have an incentive to be bad, so you
are correct there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think? I know, we've talked a
little bit about Sante al Dama and and I think
like the right answer may just be he is too
important to your team this year and you're trying. You're
very good, and you should just care about right now.
But like there is a restricted free agency coming up
for him, you you know, maybe aren't as Memphis comfortable
paying him what he's actually going to be worth. And
he is really someone I think that would have like
pretty significant value. Is he someone you're even really considering
moving or are you more focused on, like like you said,
conchar and guys like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, if if the right offer, like if Boston
comes around and they're not trusting KP's health and al
her for getting older, and it's we want to give
you Jade Springer in two first round picks for Santy
al Dama, I'd probably consider it. But it's he's he's
been so good for them. But I don't know that
you would want to like who is who has been
their second best big man behind Jared Jackson.
Speaker 2: I mean, there aren't that many candidate it's Eadie, it's Clark,
or it's it's al Dama.
Speaker 1: I mean permitted stats are pretty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it probably is al Dama, right, I mean,
he's he's got a shot at six man, I think,
which like, I don't think you say that about any
of the other guys.
Speaker 1: No, so that's I think you listen. I don't like
if they're just cod I don't mention his name of bunch, Like,
can you get Cody you have John Conchar attach a
smaller salary to him, like just to get Cody Martin,
And then well, I think you do Conchar for Cody
Martin and still Duck attacks Like that's someone who I
trust guarding point of attack guys more than probably anyone
else they have right now, Jayleen Wells might come pretty
close at that. It's like maybe something like that. But
more of the story is they could make a major move.
Is they have that Marcus Smart salary, they have Lukenard
is expiring, he's an implicit no trade clause, they have
the Brandon Clark money. I just don't expect them to
do anything major.
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like it. Although they're interested in Butler
at least suggests they're like thinking about it, there's just
not anything that. Again, why is Marcus Smart like the
key to this team? Like one, if he was healthy
and good, their needs would be very different. And two
if they want to do anything and sort of needs
to involve his salary, and because he hasn't been healthy
and good, nobody wants that that salary.
Speaker 1: So it's like, I just what if Atlanta was willing
to listen on DeAndre Hunter?
Speaker 2: Oh Man? So what are you sending Atlanta in that is?
That is that it's got to be smart?
Speaker 1: Does Atlanta want two contracts? Do they want just Marcus Smart?
You can go that route attached to picks or maybe
one like and also just like sort of a stab
in the dark on if they were willing to give
you Jay Huff or Vincent Williams junior. That's not I
don't because of injuries and like limited playing time with Huff.
They're like kind of a throw in, but they're super
intriguing throw ins.
Speaker 2: So Hunter makes about a million dollars more than Smart.
Speaker 1: Does that's fine for Memphis? Do you're just duck in
the tax?
Speaker 2: But like what if it's what that's the thing? The
sweetener you throw in with Smart if it's good enough,
might get that done with a with a pick and
also get you under the tax. If the sweeteners like
in the three to four million dollar range, well.
Speaker 1: There there are one point eight million below the tax,
so they take it.
Speaker 2: I was thinking, I was thinking over never mind, disregard
everything I said about that.
Speaker 1: Do you think, like Atlanta, are they doing what? What
do you need to do? Attached to Marcus Smart than
because he's like net negative. So is it Vince does
Vincent Williams Junior plus a first? Let's say in twenty
twenty six, Like, is that get Atlanta listening? Is Atlanta
gonna be more because they might have two twenty twenty
five picks already right Sacramento and the Lakers.
Speaker 2: It could be if you're Atlanta, would you have interested
in Huff since Capella is gonna come off the books here?
And then?
Speaker 1: Oh, I absolutely would for sure.
Speaker 2: I think if you if you're trying to hold on
to first, I think the right team might see Huff
as like, yeah, that's gonna be our first big off
the bench for the next five years.
Speaker 1: Like that, you're thinking a huff Smart and a first?
Is that enough for DeAndre Hunter? It feels like I
might throw some seconds in there, But it feels a
little light still, doesn't it?
Speaker 2: Maybe a little bit, but well, we're talking about this
from Memphis perspective, and definitely doing that if I'm Memphis,
if you're Atlanta, it's Atlanta's in a weird spot, but
you might from Atlanta's side. Is Hunter going to be
better than this? Like ever, like is this are you?
Speaker 1: And the other thing is too? Is like you have
Dice and Daniels if Jalen Johnson's gonna be healthy and
then Zachary Resische like that's kind of your like two
three four rotation of the future. You obviously need others,
but this is that You're right, This is the peak
of DeAndre Hunter's value. Because we entered the season where
people were wondering I thought this was egregious whether they
would have to include a pick to get Yeah, it
would not even let a pick.
Speaker 2: It's easy to forget how bad it has felt with
Hunter in the recent past.
Speaker 1: Does he do enough for you where it's like, oh,
we did not solve their point of attack that questions
in the playoffs at all.
Speaker 2: That's the thing. Like the theory of DeAndre Hunter, however
many years ago, was like he is that guy where
he just defensively no problem, like yes, I feel great
with him out there, and it's like, in reality he
hasn't quite been that guy. He's he'd be a good
offensive upgrade. I think he would address some of their issues,
like half court offense always is an issue with the Grizzlies,
although like they're you know, they've been top five for
most of the year on both ends. I do. I
do think you're right though, that that Hunter isn't the
set it and forget it, you know, big wing defender
that that would be ideal for Memphis.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that would be like an interesting just as
a three and D wing like that's they just they're
so deep. You have to wonder, as DeAndre Hunter enough
of an upgrade to say, oh, we know he's gonna
because they're closing guys you know where Jay Triple j
Desmond Maine and John Morant. I guess because you those
are the only three that are kind of bolted down
for them, So maybe gives you more flexibility. But I
would like Hunter there. That's an interesting one. If we
were talking about bigger swings for that BRANDT. These are
your Minnesota Timberwolves.
Speaker 2: Here we go. They're expensive. DAN sixteen point one million
into the second apron, which would be about a ninety
million or a little over a ninety million dollars tax bill.
Whoever ends up owning the team, is that something they're
comfortable paying worthwhile to ask that they can trade Detroit's
twenty twenty five first that has top thirteen protection. That
protection goes to top eleven in twenty six top nine,
and twenty seven becomes twenty seven second. If not conveyed,
they have a twenty eight swap available. Also have the
Jazz's twenty five second. It's just I'm trying to my
like sigh is like, do we just start by talking
about Julius Randall or is that really just me harping
on the same issue that I've had for them all?
Speaker 1: Ye? Oh, sorry, we didn't do most like the player
be traded for Memphis.
Speaker 2: Oh contar me too, That's what I.
Speaker 1: Would have, uh for the Timberwolves. That might be where
we need to start. Is do you actually like because
if they make a move, here would be the candidates
to be traded. Are you going to get to a
point where you think that you have no chance of
keeping Na's reader nikil Obxander Walker when they go into
free agency? Probably not like who is coming in and
outbidding you for naw.
Speaker 2: Well, I think I think that's the worthwhile question. But
the related question is can we afford to trade either
of those guys if we're still serious about being as
good as we can this year.
Speaker 1: That was the dorm I was getting into is if
you look at the top eight and if you want
to say top nine depending on the like, if you
think Devincenzl is gonna be back this year, and also
that you like the way that what you've seen from
ro Dillingham recently, how are you upgrading off of that?
Like while solving, because I think you could say they
probably need more shooting or they need like another type
of playmaker. That's like because Colmley's been up and down
and you don't know what to expect from Dillingham, But
like this team, I like, I think in hindsight, no,
you would not. You should not have made the Julius
Randall trade, like from a basketball perspective, but he's not
actually been terrible. So I just like, I don't know
where they're They have the Detroit pick, but I just like,
if you're gonna do something serious, it has to be
Julius Randall and that pick, and then it's for.
Speaker 2: What This is the thing. I mean, I think this
is the core issue is is they have guys they
absolutely could trade, and in other circumstances it would make
sense to move guys like naw and like Na's reed, certainly, Randall,
I don't think you can get better moving almost anyone
that they can trade. So like, if your criticism, and
we've I think it's been a fair one, is that
the cat trade was financially motivated, I think we can
close the book on that, right, Like, at least it
has turned out that there was not a case to
be made that it improves him on the floor, even
if there was a hypothetical one at the time. I
really like, if you make another trade like that, I'm
so annoyed and frustrated as a fan base, right like
it just which which isn't to say they won't do that,
because if you've done it once at the scale they did, Like,
certainly it's believable you'll try it again. But I don't
know how you're getting better by moving any of the
guys we've just talked about, So, like, I would still
want to move Randall, and I think like in an
ideal world he would just say I'm not I'm going
to go into free agency and then suddenly a team
is like, great, thirty million coming off the books, will
take the what do you want? But then his Minnesota.
Did Minnesota just get him in hope anyway? They would
they want that salary relief. So I this is a
fascinating team, but I keep circling back to, like, I
just don't see the trade that gets them what they
that makes them better using the pieces they have that
are hypothetically available. Do you do you know what I mean, Like,
I just don't know what the path is to improving,
which I still think they should be trying to do,
because like I, I'm never gonna quit this team, even
though the results just haven't been great. I still believe
somewhere in here is a really good team.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and look, if you have j McDaniels
as January first is shooting like forty from three on
four attempts per game, the volume should still be higher
than that. But like, if that's the versime Jane McDaniels,
you're gonna get I'm not gonna be able to quit
this team in a playoff setting either, And so but
I do wonder know it's like I will believe that
Glent this is the other Like, I don't know if
we're approaching it from this perspective office we've assumed that
the Wolves are at least gonna eat it this year.
I will believe that Glent Taylor plays a ninety plus
million dollar tax bill when I see it. Okay that
I didn't at least in the back of my mind
where I'm are they gonna use the looming threat of
free agency for any one of the three players we
just mentioned to try and lop off money and like
sell it as like, oh, like another basketball move type deal.
Speaker 2: So okay, let's go with that. Then, So you gotta
get what do you need to get down to to
make a real dent If let's say you just want
to shed sixteen or just call it seventeen million to
get out of the second apron and that saves you
what like three I.
Speaker 1: Used Randall at that point, because the other two aren't
even making seventeen million.
Speaker 2: And you're trading him for no money coming back.
Speaker 1: So I'm saying, like, are they trying to slash their
tax bill somehow where it's just like, oh, we save
ten million dollars as part they're still in the second apron.
But they've now slashed that they're in a different tax band.
Maybe they're not paying as much in one of the
upper tax bans of it. I just, yeah, I'm not
saying they should not do this all. Yeah, that clear,
but I will believe that Glenn Taylor pays this tax
bill when I see it.
Speaker 2: No, I'm I kind of I think I'm inclined to agree.
So I'm just wondering what that even looks like we
can concede, like, don't do this Wolves, but like if
they do go down that road, it's like, are you
sending Randall to Detroit and taking back like a fourth.
Speaker 1: And I don't know who else, And like, are you
giving Detroit their pick to do that?
Speaker 2: Interesting?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, like Tim Hardaway Junior or Simony Fon Takio
for Julius Randall should work if you're giving Detroit's pickback.
Speaker 2: I mean I kind of love that for the Wolves too,
just because I'm so so out on Randall. Yeah, I mean,
I wish there was more to say about about them.
I just it's it's bad. I don't like this situation
at all. I really wish they just kept Cat and
just figured it out.
Speaker 1: But here I still think they're pretty threatening, like if
you catch them on the right, like series of nights
and this is all like they're just this typifies them.
So since January first, they're only two games above five hundred,
but they have a top six next rating rate. Nothing
about this team, like on a night to night basis,
doesn't necessarily make sense like you see them. I've also
gone back and forth on their needs where I'm I'm like,
all right, their defense with their topping, it's just set.
And I watched them and I'm like, you know what, No,
it's not.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, right. I mean, I think just to sort
of treat them like the other teams we've talked about,
I think their biggest need is still someone that, while
granting that it's always gonna be tricky with with Rudy
Gobert in the middle, they still just need someone that
makes it so Anthony Edwards doesn't have to just be
your floor spacer two. Like I like someone that's just
gonna make enough plays on the ball, which like, even
even if Devincenzo's playing well, that isn't him and he's
hurt anyway, Conley can't be that guy consistently. Dillingham, they're
just I don't think they're gonna give a real shot
to and is probably too young to expect that from that.
That's what the if. We're just talking needs and not
like feasibility of addressing them. It is just I think
someone to turn the offense into a different version of
what they have right now, Like Edwards can't be this player.
I don't think like that's not an optimized version of
him or the Wolves offense.
Speaker 1: No it's not. I mean, could you get Collin Sexton
from Utah for Julius Randall on that Detroit pick and
then you probably Utah is n't have to send out
probably more money there.
Speaker 2: Maybe I love how you're so solution oriented. I'm just
pointing out, like here's the problem, and then you have
I don't like when.
Speaker 1: I listen to people. I'm not saying I don't like you.
I mean I hate you. Listens like I don't want
to be the podcast and we do this sometimes it's
just too tough, But I don't want to be in
the podcast, Like, well this is wrong, but we're not gonna,
like especially gonna trade preview.
Speaker 2: But that you can think about it is let's see,
let's get some more names Uh.
Speaker 1: Really funny if they just sent my cammy into Detroit's
cap space and that's how they were like slashing their
like that's that, like we're gonna get Dylan him a shot,
and that's how that's the.
Speaker 2: Thing they have cover for. Like every like bullshit financially
motivated move they could make is just like, oh, we
want Rob's ready, let's get him in there. You know,
we believe we're most likely to be traded.
Speaker 1: I don't think I'll tell you who I went with.
I don't think they're ready to give up on Leonard Miller.
My guess is that like it would just be Joe Ingles,
like let's get rid of by shedding the minimum contract
and you save a few million dollars in tax I
don't know if he's too important in the locker room,
but I assume that's why you have Mike Codley there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think your locker room's okay as long as
Conley's there, and really honestly, Edwards, Uh yeah, I guess
I would love to say Randall, and I would love
to just say it better not be NASR or you
want Rann.
Speaker 1: Give me at least try to give me a Randall
so like who is the Randall suitor or team that's like,
what is the Randall trade?
Speaker 2: There isn't one unless you have him broadcasting. He's not
picking up his option because like because one you gotta
have a thirty million dollar player to send back, and
two you have to decide that Randall, well, yeah, you
have to decide that Randall is not only going to
improve you now, but it is also worth potentially having
on the books next year. So like.
Speaker 1: That we're at over Patrick Williams nice Litt challenge trade
and who else I mean Patrick Williams do or what
they wouldn't give you if you did Randall? And let's
say he's coming off the books and that Detroit pick
for Patrick Williams and Kobe White, the Bulls aren't doing.
Speaker 2: That right because what you're getting is a first and
salary relief and you're giving you know, I don't think
so just because well you are getting off Patrick Patrick
Williams money.
Speaker 1: Would you give just straight up no pick? If maybe
maybe you give up the Utah twenty twenty five second,
but Randall for no, you wouldn't give up if anything,
Chicago should maybe give a pick here I owe and
Patrick Williams for Julius Randall.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Chicago's given the pick there. Maybe if
you're assuming the salary relief, what about can we like,
can Cole Anthony? Can we get Cole Anthony on this
to the wolf somehow? What's that?
Speaker 1: I guess, Orlando ran I just I don't think Randall's
been bad enough to say, like, let's enter the Patrick
Williams business just because he might be less, like like
he's making less per year.
Speaker 2: It's tough out here. Yeah, I don't I get. Let's
just land on Joe Ingles as the most likely wolf
to be traded and move on the Pelicans.
Speaker 1: They're my team, right, So there are two point one
million dollars into the tax. Spoiler alert, they suck this
year and are not going to pay the tax. Also
spoiler alert, they could have been great this year, they
still wanted to pay the tax. They have no real
extra first to trade anymore. They'll have the twenty twenty
five Milwaukee first if it lands in the top four.
That's a nice little lottery ticket there. I guess they
have swop rights with Milwaukee in twenty six, and their
own twenty seven first round pick is headed to Atlanta,
it'll be the more favorable of their own or Milwaukee's though,
so I guess you could say that's their extra first
round pick, but it's it's spoken for Grant what So
it is let's start here because leads into the is
brandon Ingram the most likely player to be traded on
the Pelicans? And why is the answer? No?
Speaker 2: Well, the answer is no because nobody wants his next
deal and wants to give up the amount of money
it would take to uh to onboard him. He's a
little bit like Randal and except that you do know
he's at least gonna hit free agency. Uh, but I
think I'd rather have him than Randall. Well, if it
isn't Ingram, it could be someone like Javonte Green that
will get you under the town. Does he get you there? Just? Yea?
Does he does? Does he have two points two point
two eighty seven thousand? So it's like it's a rounding error.
Speaker 1: Wait, maybe I rounded up for the graphics so the
Pelicans A. No, no, they're over two point one. But
yeahs O can't be it could well.
Speaker 2: It could be Green and because Green you might actually
get something for and then Green.
Speaker 1: And Tice like just move that work two of Green, Tyson,
Jeremiah Robinson, Earl. Teams can just take them in and
you're done. I think that's the and I want teams
to trade the get Davonte Green on the Knicks right now.
Speaker 2: Please sure? Yeah. So yeah, that's why it's not brandon
Ingram because well, the other reason it's not brandon Ingram
is because he hasn't been traded yet, and that suggests
that's very, very hard to trade him these smaller time moves,
which for the cheap ass Pelicans is just like yeah,
they're gonna do one of those, you know what.
Speaker 1: To be fair to the Pelicans, like, this isn't a
situation where like McCollum's money, you don't attach anything to
anyone right now to get off of money, Like that's
not you want a duct at tax? Okay, fine, like
you should you suck like duct attacks. We know that
the Jontay Murrays would also help them. The incentives in
his contract aren't gonna push them over the tax either.
You don't have to account for that. Now that'll help.
Here's the thing with brandon Ingram. I think you like
they're not trading Zion. I just what would it tame
for you to trade Zion. Let's start there. Uh, I'm
too unprotected first round picks.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say three. I don't know if you're
getting Yeah, it's gonna be multiple unprotected first and I'm
not taking back a dime of money that it's like
even debated.
Speaker 1: And those three less favorable picks aren't doing it for you.
Speaker 2: That's probably not Is there a team? We talk all right?
I talk all the time about how like there's just
no more bad contracts. Who's got more bad money than
the New Orleans right now? Between like bad money, mcoms
bad money. I think Murray is debatably bad money. Uh,
Zion might be bad. There's a lot brandon Ingram is
technically bad money because nobody wants it.
Speaker 1: No, I think he's expiring. Zion could be expiring.
Speaker 2: If I'm being It's just it strikes me as I
look at the cap sheets, like, man, you guys, because
well you said, like you can't be giving up picks
to get off with some of these deals. And if
it's like talking about McCollum, it's like, well, then you're
not getting off that deal like that. That's the definition
of bad money to me, I'm.
Speaker 1: Not even gonna get into trade targets for them, because
they should not be like even remotely thinking about that.
I want to ask you, are you at the point
where you just move brandon Ingram for anything, or are
you looking at are you chancing it into the summer
and saying you're either gonna need our help to go
somewhere and we'll be compensated then, or we're gonna get
you at a number that you didn't want but that
we're comfortable with rather than trade you for Like I
don't even think, like is it good like the Warriors?
Would they even give you non wigans contracts plus a
protected first for brandon Ingram? I probably not.
Speaker 2: No, I think I think there is a good chance now.
I mean, every day that goes by, it gets better
that the right move is to just like, nah, we
don't see this sense in taking back whatever we might
get for Ingram. Let's hold on to him and maybe
the market changes, which is like it just that never
used to seem like the right decision. But I like, look,
what do we even know has been offered for him?
If any? I just all we ever hear is like
nobody wants nobody wants him because of what he's gonna
try to get in free agency.
Speaker 1: So I guess what's the minimum as the Pelican Because
I'm at I'm at this one. It's like, just let
this roll in the free agency and maybe you just
get him back a number and you could move it
later and like he plays better or something. But what
is like the minimum return you would need as the
Pelicans to get rid of brandon Ingram ahead of free agency?
By the way, complicating all this is he's been injured.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I think if I'm I mean, I don't
feel like there's really a way to take back expiring
money for him. And so if I'm assuming I'm getting
a salary back or salaries that are most of which
are on the books next year. So let's just say,
I don't know there's like twenty million or twenty five
million on the books next year in any return for him,
maybe some of you know, some one of the players
comes off or whatever. I still think I I'm not
gonna move him now unless I'm getting a first, like
a real one, and I don't think that offers on
the table. So I think, to your point, that's why
you just like punt and wait and hope that you can,
like you said, bring him back at a number that
maybe the league would be willing to trade for him at,
or you'd be willing to keep him at, because like,
what's I just I just haven't heard anything rumored that
would justify doing it now, and when you don't really
technically have.
Speaker 1: To, so like, let's just say there somehow it's shoehoarded
to the Jimmy Butler eighteen trade. That's going to happen
if you just got expiring money and one of those
picks that Phoenix is sending you out somewhere, that's enough
for you to say, yeah, we'll coupey with Brandon Ingram. Now.
Speaker 2: Uh, I think it's close. I think I might want
like a real like those are real first, but like
a higher upside first, because I still kind of think
if I get him back on it at a number,
I mean, he's not obligated to resign with him. That's
the other thing. It's just where's he going to go?
I think I might be able to do better than that.
And if the downside is he just comes off the books,
then all I've sacrificed is like a pick in the
twenties that you know what I mean, Like it's borderline.
That's that's a close case. I think I might. I
might still hold out if that's.
Speaker 1: The I was just curious as if that was like
your minimum. Now, if you were getting maybe two of
those picks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, then maybe because I think if you talk about
the like I know I've said this before, but Kevin
Pelton had the equivalent value of those three picks is
like the number six picks. So if the equivalent value
of two of them is like thirteen, then like, yeah,
all right, I could see that I take a number
thirteen pick in a random draft or the equivalent value
of it for Brandon Ingram that's about That's fine. It's
like a lottery protection sort of close to it.
Speaker 1: So we both have Vonte Green most likely to be
a traders. I feel like a team might give a
second round.
Speaker 2: Pick for him. Yep, and the tax stuff.
Speaker 1: Next team up. Fun with this one.
Speaker 2: I can't believe you don't have all the picks listed.
They're ten point three million below the tacks. They can
take back about ten million if they trade uz Manjang alone.
They have the what is that abbreviation? Oh about it?
Room exception, too many first round picks to go through. Obviously,
I wish you had tried. That's fun anyway, Shell date,
You're welcome you did nuts shell it for me. That
helps the Thunder own their next seven firsts. They also
have up to six additional incoming first twenty twenty seven
swap rights with the Clips twenty twenty eight swap rights
with Dallas can do anything they want. Don't seem inclined
to do anything crazy, but I you know, I just
needs to be said that whoever has the best offer
for like anyone out there, they can just get involved
if they want to. So what their needs. We've talked
about like both here and you know in other in
other pod episodes, just another main creator that is an
upgrade on Jalen Williams, and then you can, you know,
go down the list. I guess it's it's still you're
talking about a team that's really great, and we just
it's another situation where it's like you could add another
big you can add more shooting, bigger shooters. We've talked
about a lot, like bigger than Isaiah Joe, maybe more
consistent than Aaron Wiggins, or higher volume than Aaron Wiggins.
I still I'm still the core issue here comes down
to like whoever they add, do they have a shot
to be in a closing lineup? And if the answer
is no, then there's a justification for keeping the powder
dry even though they have like truckloads of powder.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's tough to find like realistic that also fit
by the way, within like their pay structure moving forward,
because Shay is gonna start a new or sign a
new deal, Chet and Jaim Williams are eventually gonna get
more expensive. They paid Alice Caruso, some of these other
like Casey Wallace, depending on if he's a long term
piece for them. Those are guys. They have Aaron Wiggins
and Isaiah Joe on long term cheap deals. Of the
names that are realistically available, do any of them get
you thinking about not standing pad at the denline. I'm
gonna go through. Let's start with Cam Johnson. They were
linked to him and then they were unlinked to him.
But is that like a you could structure whatever you like.
Is it do you need Wiggins and Isaiah Joe and
a pick to get that done? Is it just one
of them? And then maybe you want to send out
Ustman Jang two, and there's picks involved. The nets want
the equivalent of two first round picks, which is like
literally nothing to the Thunder. That's like, sure, here you go.
But is that someone that moves you to one part
with those assets and then two is like in a vacuum.
I think you could say, all right, if it was
one of Wiggins and Joe and there's some first round
equity involved, sure, But if we're talking both or I
think even the bigger question is but when you're just
looking at the context of your team, I think, is
salary structure will fit with them moving forward? But is
he good enough to get you to make a pretty
substantial midseason move.
Speaker 2: I think there is at least a case that he
could close, provided they're going with one big which I
don't know if that's the right decision to close. I
still think there's a great I'm very curious about, like
extended minutes with Hartenstein and chet as you're four or five.
I think, if I'm the Thunder and it's gonna cost
me to first, I think I probably and matching salary
if it's Joe and or Wiggins or however you want
to put it together. If you can do it using
Jang as like a significant piece of that salary. Awesome,
the he's only making five million, but maybe as a.
Speaker 1: Situation beneath the tax means that that's a lot of
money they could take back.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I think I do that, even while acknowledging
that Johnson might not meet the criteria. I just laid
out as like he's at least a consideration to close
and and again the prices for them to first is like, okay, sure,
I I think I would consider that pretty strongly, while
acknowledging that Johnson is like playing basically the best he's
ever played, Like that's that's a little risky, But for
the Thunder, it's like it's a potentially marginal upgrade for
a marginal price, and that's fine with me at this point.
For them, what.
Speaker 1: About this is the name I was thinking about if
and I'm trying to do the most minimal to stick
amount of names going out. There are other ways to
build this deal, but if it was you can this
works financially Kenrich Williams two first round picks for Kobe White.
Speaker 2: I think I'm definitely doing that. I do that before
I do the Cam Johnson deal.
Speaker 1: What if one of those picks has to be the
Philly pick this year.
Speaker 2: So potentially like the number seven pick, if I can
make the other of the first I'm trying to think
which one that like my own? Maybe if I'm the theater.
Speaker 1: Just like in two thousand, they have an interesting into this.
So why we don't have all the swaps listed like
the twenty seven and twenty eight swaps on screen for anybody?
Those are like independent swaps, whereas like these other swaps
are tied to them getting multiple first round picks. But
I think in twenty twenty six they're gonna get like
two of the Houston LA Clippers and their own picks.
So let's say it's the second most favorable of those three,
which would really be the least favorable of whichever first
round pick the thunder or holding in twenty six, man.
Speaker 2: I think White again the closing thing. I don't know,
but White kind of just just like makes your offense foolproof,
Like with Shaye off the floor, I think he's that
good as a guy that you could just give the
ball to. And then Jalen Williams is again in a
second option role. I think I do that. If it's
I think I would consider that because White White's worth
a good first at least, right, Like.
Speaker 1: If it was just the Philly pick, I do it
at a heartbeat. It's the second first round pick that
gives me pause. But if I'm the Bulls, even though
like you might get like Philly might not be like
what if they just make the plane and everybody's healthy,
Like that pick could just then convey at like sixteen
or six, like it could be outside the lottery or
late lottery. And I think Kobe White is certainly worth
more than that. I guess the one concern would be
he's on the books this year for twelve million. He's
cheap through next year, but then he's gonna be a
free agent in twenty twenty six, and so that's when
new deals will have kicked in for chet Well, Shay
and j dub At that point I would be team
just figure.
Speaker 2: It out as you right, right. And if it's a rental,
it's a rental. You're good enough right now to justify
a rental, right, I mean it's not a half, it's
a year and a half rental or whatever. If I'm
the Bulls, I think, well, who knows what the Bulls
actually want.
Speaker 1: But if I'm do that trade, By the way, if
that you could probably get they could reroute Kenridg Williams
and get like And by the way, if Okase really
wanted to, they could do something like Usman Jang and
Dylan Jones.
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, if I'm the Bulls, I
think and some other teams that they hopefully rebuild, I
want to look at Usman Jang. I want to see
if he's a second draft guy. Potentially he hasn't worked
out for the Thunder, but like he's still really young,
and there's a reason. Then I trust that the Thunder
weren't totally out of their minds when they gave up
a bunch of picks to move up to get them.
I still think, like, I'm I'm interested in a guy
that they valued.
Speaker 1: That way, if you're okay, see what type of structure
for Kobe White would you prefer? Is it Usman jet Like?
Would you rather trade just Kendrich Williams at a vacuum
that's all you to send out, or would you rather
trying to have to attach big Jalen Williams or Dylan
Jones to usban Jang's salary to get it done.
Speaker 2: I think I'm more interested in the Jang construction because
I think Williams actually might still matter and Big Jalen
Williams I think might still matter for them.
Speaker 1: So it would be Jang and Dylan Jose. They could
do that as we're giving you three first for Kobe White.
Speaker 2: There you go, that's how you spent it the recent first.
Speaker 1: I don't think they would do that.
Speaker 2: You don't think the thunder would do that.
Speaker 1: I don't think they would do I mean, Kenbridge is
important because of all the injuries to home Grin and
Hart and Sign of course, but like I don't know,
and they love him in okay. See, I was just
trying to do it like the minimum return. If I
I guess, if I'm okase, I'd probably prefer Jang and
Big Jalen Williams. But then it's right now, you're it's
hard and Sign and home Grin is like your fives,
and then we're really in ten Ri Williams in j
Douve territory as you as your five.
Speaker 2: Well we know that actually works out okay for stretches,
but yeah, uh no, I think I guess I'm giving
up on Jang and then that that's the reason I'm
gravitating towards that package from the Thunder's perspective.
Speaker 1: But I think that's fair. It's just do you think
they would give because I think the Bulls might should
do it either way. I just don't. I think they're
very much. I don't think the Thunder would do Dylan
Jones Jang to first for Kobe White. I really don't
think they would do that.
Speaker 2: Dylan Jones Jane to first for Kobe White. I don't
know I could see it. I guess. I guess it
depends on what they think about Dylan Jones and and
if they could mess with which first we're talking about.
Speaker 1: I suppose I guess it was not the Philly pick.
Speaker 2: Maybe conversation. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Are there any other names or realistic names that would
get you, as the Thunder to think about making it
like an actual move at the deadline? Uh?
Speaker 2: I mean we've we were obligated to mention Cody Martin.
I just don't know that he affects them positively enough
to just Martin, just get it up, just do it.
Let's see, would you.
Speaker 1: Do something like I don't know if they're this out
on Jang, but it's like, oh, give Jang for Chris Bouchet,
Like we just needed another like type of techudge against
the HomeGrid and Hartenstein.
Speaker 2: That's what I was about to say, Like, is this
where we have to mention like Bouchet and Olynic and stuff. Yeah.
Any the thing is like if they're healthy, they have
their spacing big in Chet and so like it's not
the same as like the Clippers, for example, It's like,
oh my god, what a change of pace someone like
Bouchet would give us. Again, though, the Thunder are really
in a position where like anything they do is just
to add like a luxury item, which Bouchet I think
would be. But so do it because why not? You
can't use all these picks.
Speaker 1: Yes, they have so many options. I think there's a
strong case for them to stampat they are the best
team in the NBA, maybe no worse than the second
best team in the NBA right now. I do think
this would be the postseason, and you can make an
excuse of Chet for some reason isn't healthy, but like
they might have to recalibrate if they go through this
postseason with this core, and they deal with a lot
of the same offensive problems they end up dealing with
by the.
Speaker 2: Time they right. It's weird to say about a team
this good, but it's like you still are kind of
trying to decide what you actually need by seeing it
in act. Spot to be right, most likely player be traded,
I'd say Jang. I just think I don't see a
future for him, and I could see a team wanting him,
and the number is small enough to where it kind
of fits into whatever construction you want to builds as
a trade package.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't. I mean, if all they're like if
their entire front court was healthy, maybe you make a
case for big Jaylen Williams. But I just don't know
who else is. I just don't know who else would
be the candidate here for that. It might even just
be because even if you just want to take someone
to their room exception, you have to make sure that
you have a roster spot available there too.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know what, The thought that occurred to me
as I'm looking at their cap sheet for trade candidates
is like, what if Topitch just is the creator that
they actually really need, and he's just he's just in
the rotation next year and then suddenly we don't have
any issues.
Speaker 1: At all that you know what's tough about that though,
because I likened him, by the way, my pro com
for him. Do you remember with Shay gilts out right?
Speaker 2: So, but the issue he's duplicative is what you're saying.
Speaker 1: You got to get rid of Shay because he's duplicative
with Nicolotovich. The issue, and it's not a terrible issue,
be like, let's say they struggle again offensively in the playoffs,
in their mind like, well, we might just have the
answer on the roster again. That gets into iffy territory
because you're still then relying on a rookie.
Speaker 2: Then you're like, then you're getting a little too close
to Orlando's roster building approach, where it's like we we
we trust in our development. We're just gonna let these
guys get better and maybe actually never solve the problem.
Speaker 1: Our next team, mister Hughes, I believe they are your team.
Speaker 2: I just did the thunder. You're it's your turn.
Speaker 1: Stop trying to do the lasers. They are three point
seven million dollars below the tax because apparently teams this
bad can be that close to the facts, but for
them tax concerns next year. I've seen a lot of
people mention this. They seem a little bit overblown. I
don't think they'll inform it, will inform heavily what they
do at the deadline. They projected me about five million
dollars under the tax if everyone comes back and they
have a top five pick. So if there were, if
they think they're going to get the number one pick
and they just want to make sure, like you could
figure out a way to duck it, then But I've
seen a lot of people kind of use that as
spin for making trades. Now, I think that's overblown.
Speaker 2: Their two thousand and.
Speaker 1: Five first round pick, grant is going to Chicago, but
it's lottery protected, so it's not going to Chicago. It
is lottery protected through twenty twenty eight.
Speaker 2: Just ever, it's not going ever.
Speaker 1: That's a Bonker's like protection strategy. And then it turns
into a second round pick. They have one extra first
round pick. It'll come from Milwaukee or Boston in twenty
twenty nine. The way it works is Portland gets the
most and least favorable of its own, Boston's and Milwaukee's
picks in two thousand and twenty nine, and they have
swap rights with Milwaukee in two thousand and twenty eight
and thirty. Is that correct? I think so, Grant, Like,
what do we talk about with this team before we
get into like there they shouldn't be They have needs.
They definitely need more shooting this team, But I'm not
sitting there saying let's go out and buy shooting. I
think you look at it in a way of saying
of the players that we probably should be trading, is
there a way maybe we get some shooting back as.
Speaker 2: Part of that deal? Sure? Yeah, I think I think
their needs they're over. Their primary need is a cornerstone
that's like obvious, which they don't have. You're not trading
for that right now, obviously They're like. One B is
how do we get cheaper to sort of make it
make sense with how bad we are and how early
we are in our rebuild? Uh to like, how do
we get our books to look like that of a
team that is as early in this process as we are,
which would include Jeremy Grant moving, which would include DeAndre
and Anthony Simons on down the list. This is like,
the more you look at this team, the Wilder, it
gets some of the financial decisions they made, and like
the situation that they're in with how bad, like it's
I don't know, it doesn't weirdly feel like totally disastrous,
but it's it's really what they're paying this roster is
so out is maybe what what team what team's payroll
is more out of step with its performance than Portland
right now? Like and so that to me, just yeah, well,
which that is destroyed by injuries like that that is
you know what I mean? Like, so I think for
the Blazers, it's just how do we like get our
payroll into like a lot of a sensible you know, strata,
Like it's just it's insane some of the contracts they
have on their books right now. So and the double
like the double whammy of it all is like to
move them, you probably need to give up either young
players or draft picks, and those are the very last
things a team like Portland should be looking to get
rid of.
Speaker 1: Are you at the point that you would give Jeremy
Grant up without receiving a first round pick and return.
Speaker 2: If I can get like one semi projectable young player, Okay,
I was, like, I get I get it. I'm not
getting picks. If I can get one player that I
can look at and say, like he might be something,
you know, in three years, I think that's probably I would.
I think I would do it. I just don't know, like,
because clearly you're not going to get those picks. Nobody's
nobody's put them on the table.
Speaker 1: I don't even know who the Jeremy Grant team is
at the moment.
Speaker 2: I mean you can throw out the Lakers. That's you know,
that's that's one you here mentioned sometimes. Uh so if.
Speaker 1: You're getting Ruy Gabe Vincent and Jared Vanderbilt and.
Speaker 2: I'm not getting my young player there, but then the
Lakers don't have that guy, so like they're.
Speaker 1: Not Moore is the interesting young player in that sense?
Speaker 2: Would they even do that?
Speaker 1: Would you say? No, I don't think Lakers were. You
can also make a case that Ruytch Moore has been
better than Jeremy Grant an offense.
Speaker 2: Sure, well then I mean bigger picture question, do you
just hold on to Jeremy Grant and he becomes like
perhaps like more valuable as there are fewer left on
his deal and maybe he plays better next year? That's
rough because you're just you're just winding the clock back
as Portland. You know, the longer you wait, I worry.
Speaker 1: What that means about like your overall floor balance. But
he has not inhibited like Denny Avidya has gotten better
for them from where he was the middle of this
year at the beginning of this year. Excuse me, Jamadi
Kamar has been fantastic for them. So I don't like that.
That's an interesting stance to take. But like, you're just
okay as the Blazers, Okay, everybody's just still on this
roster leading into the offseason. Do you think that they're
bad enough to like, Okay, none of this is because
chhny Bils is gonna stop playing these guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm not okay with that. But but I
think I don't know what your what your alternatives are,
so like the guys that they definitely could trade Avdia,
I still think Simon's because.
Speaker 1: You are you getting as much for Abdia as you
gave up for Avdia.
Speaker 2: Well that's again, so do you what do you hold
on to him? Like? I just I just don't know,
But I think you can get positive How about this?
You can get positive value for Optia. Oh, I think
you can get positive value for Simon's with the with
the right team, he's maybe borderline. I think you get
positive value for r W three. I think Kamara you
definitely get positive value for and get in.
Speaker 1: Terms of what's the player on this roster that would
get you multiple first round picks in a trade. The
only two I'm confident in saying would get you multiple
first round picks or probably like Tamani Kamara and Donovan Clincon.
I don't know if it's like Scoot's been better.
Speaker 2: Give Sharp probably first for Sharp?
Speaker 1: Has he shown it like to that?
Speaker 2: No, that's what I'm saying. It's like, that's who you meant.
I don't. I don't know. You might get one He's
that So that that is illustrative of what we're dealing
with here, is like the guys you really really want
to trade, you definitely can't get multiple first for I just, uh,
we got to focus on the guys they can move
can we get.
Speaker 1: Actually, I think you made an interesting point because you
even look at how well maybe you'd like him to
play more and that's the but like Donovan Klingen, the
current setup, like having these veterans and injuries have taken
care of.
Speaker 2: Some of it.
Speaker 1: Like that hasn't inhibited his development either, Like he's probably
gonna make it all rookie team. He's been really good.
So is there more If you could just you know,
make Chauncey Billips understand the plot, and it's like, you know,
some of these guys don't see the night of day
after February sixth, and we're gonna lead into the development
because you're bad enough, your third worst in the West.
You're not gonna outtank some of these teams. Anyway, I
actually hadn't thought about them. I assumed that they were
gonna trade, like I honestly I probably would trade Robert
Williams the Third Justice, Like, let's make sure there's no
one standing in the way of at least maximizes me.
I want to see m again. I want to test
the stamina of Donovan Klingen of how many minutes that
he can log. So let's, you know, clear up the
big man Glood and me personally, if I could get
like shorter term money and just get rid of Grant
and now I'm all in on me, like the Avia
the Tabani Kamara experience, and then like opening up some
minutes for just even like the Chris Murray's and the
repairs and even if like the Shane Sharp's of the world,
Matis Cibo whatever, I would consider doing something like that, Simons.
I don't disagree with you. I just feel more strongly
I think you definitely get positive value, Like you get
a first round pick for him. I just view was
just like needing someone to open up the floor. He's
like the only player on this team that I'm confident
can do that. And if if you're only getting a
first round pick, like if Orlando came and said, okay,
here's Jet Howard end a first round pick, or Tristan
da Silva and a first round pick and then salary,
that probably.
Speaker 2: Gets me to do it.
Speaker 1: But I can't. And I'm only getting like one first
round pick that's not you know, the Philly pick from OKAC.
Speaker 2: I might just hold lot.
Speaker 1: That at this point.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's a little bit like the Grant argument
of maybe maybe it's just now's not the time to
get the most you're gonna get for him. Like I
just if it's like Gary Harris and a first and
something for Simons, just like just do it.
Speaker 1: It just that's fair, do it.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, like, I guess I'm thinking
of it from the fan perspective of, like I don't like,
what are you selling right now as a franchise, Like
what are you? You can't really like If Scoot were
what we thought he was gonna be, then this is
a very different conversation. I think the fact that he's
not is just like, well, you got to bottom out,
you gotta hoard dress. It's just the most basic rebuild plan,
like they should be, except you have all these expensive
contracts on the books that like you can't just wait
till they all run out. So I'm I'm ready to
move any kind of big salary for like just almost
just to do it at this point. I don't know,
Like that's probably pretty extreme, but you know what I mean,
Like I don't need much to move even a guy
like Simon's, who I agree is more valuable than your
Aighten's or grants or whatever.
Speaker 1: They're in a weird spot, which is not to say
a bast because Scoot has been verging on fantastic lately,
which is super cocouraging Shade and sharp. The additional self
creation he shoulder shouldered, encouraging Donovan bringing good. But the
problem is, so you have a bunch of the Tamani
Kamara excellent, you don't have you have a couple of
lottery tickets. I would say two in terms of looking
at could this player be the person around whom we
build everything. It's Scooter Shade and they don't have it's
Donovan clinking is just not the type of dude that
you do that for. So it's a weird spot, but
it's nowhere near hopeless. I just don't understand. Like they
sat on Jeremy Grant too long. We could all that
deal was curious in the moment, and then there was
talk like they didn't they needed at least two first
round picks at the beginning of the season, that that
might not be enough. They sat on him too long,
and that's probably their biggest folly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. You can't. I was gonna say,
like they there's a way they come out of this
deadline where we feel way better about them, right if
they do, if they do move, like I think Robert Williams,
there's enough. We've talked about him enough and there's enough
teams that are like, yes, that could be the guy
that makes sense for us. They can get something for him.
I think they can get something for the Doop Breath.
I don't know what that gets you, but they he
should certainly be in some level of demand. Simon's I
think you can move if you just come out of
this with you still have Grant on the books, and
that's like kind of your only remaining deal that you
don't love, Like one that's actually plausible to me, and
two like that's I just feel way better about Portland
going into post deadline existence. If that's where we are.
Speaker 1: Who's your most likely player to be traded?
Speaker 2: I think it's Williams. I think there's enough teams and
his number is low enough that I think they'll be
multip like you'll have multiple offers. I think for him
that as Portland, you'll be choosing between multiple like positive
value packages. So I would just go with him.
Speaker 1: I don't want to do Op Breaf because he's so cheap,
and there seems to be like so many teams that
just want reserve bigs right now. Yeah, Grant one team left.
We made it here, it is podcast. This is your
team right.
Speaker 2: Twenty seven point two million below the tax. Not a
lot of financial uish.
Speaker 1: Randam come home that come up with he from Utah? Oh,
I think he's from Texas.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's close, I guess. Uh. Their twenty five first
is going to the Thunder with top ten protection, so
it is not going to Thunder top eight in twenty
twenty six. That obligation goes away if it's not conveyed.
I love those disappearing picks.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: They just traded for Phoenix's twenty thirty one first rounder,
Danny ah Special, and they're giving up the least favorable
of theirs. The Calves in Minnesota's first rounder is in
twenty five, twenty seven, and twenty nine. The Jazz are
like they've got the call In sections and the John
Collinses and the Jordan Clarkson's and who am I forgetting?
Those are the main ones all ready to go if
you're willing to do this is my little mini like
trade deadline soapbox thing. Don't trade Walker Kessler? Like I
just going to that always felt, yeah, let's we need
like that's you know what? Is he the closest thing?
They don't have a cornerstone? Is he the closest thing
to like, yeah, we think we're sure this guy is
going to be a multi year starter that they have
right now.
Speaker 1: Cody Williams, No, I mean I still think it's George.
Speaker 2: That's the guy you'd tab. But I just any higher
ceiling obviously just because of the player type and the
upside and stuff. But like you just if you're the Jazz,
I think Kesler unless I don't know what kind of
offer it would need to be, but I'm just not
trading Kessler. Uh So their needs are I mean, if
you want to talk about it, do.
Speaker 1: You think they could get on bogie from Toronto?
Speaker 2: Or is that like he's too small? He's too small.
I think I take the equivalent of a bad first
round pick for him. I mean, yeah, Actually, if you're
trying to build the team, sure, wings guys. Basically it's
like anybody that plays positions or fills a role that
makes life easier on George Kessler, Cody Williams, Isaiah Collier
if you want to throw him in there. So that's
just three and D wings that are, you know, not
how usage players basically realistically though, it's just you're still
in pick hoarding mode and trying to move salaries or
even take on bad salary with picks attached.
Speaker 1: Do you think of all the rebuilding teams though, and
I'm not including san Antonio here, that they have the
most licensed to say, hey, like, let's if someone just
became available that's younger, that would cost you actual picks
or maybe one of your younger guys, that they're the
team that should consider it.
Speaker 2: Or no, well just because they already have like marketing
for example, Well they have.
Speaker 1: Marketing and they I mean they have a ship ton
of picks.
Speaker 2: Still yeah, probably, well yeah, because free agency for Utah
is not what it is for a lot of other teams.
And so if you can trade for someone, I mean
that must have been I mean marketing was like nobody
thought marketing.
Speaker 1: He was basically salary fill right.
Speaker 2: But like that that is that being said, trades are
the way that the trades in the draft are the
way that the Jazz get their next great roster. It's
not free agency. So in that sense, yes, they are
the rebuilder that's like, oh, we can just trade for
someone that like maybe fits, but like it's kind of
like the best you're gonna do. I do think I
think that's fair.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of who would be good enough
though for them. Just to make this conversation more interesting
than are they gonna trade Clark, Sat Collins or second?
Who's most likely traded? I'm gonna name a couple of guys.
Are they good enough for the Jet? Kobe White?
Speaker 2: Sure? Yeah, I mean he's he would be their second
best player just right away.
Speaker 1: Well yes, but like in terms like he's only has
one year left on his deal. You have to factor
that in.
Speaker 2: I think you overpay to keep him if you can.
But but just get you again, that's to your point,
like get the guy on board, and then you know,
just hope that hope that he likes what he sees
enough to keep him, because you can't.
Speaker 1: I should have saved him for last because he was
like one of my friend names. I was gonna say,
Melo Ball.
Speaker 2: What a fun fit in Utah?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, can you keep LaMelo Ball?
Speaker 1: I guess he's in a contract for another four years?
Speaker 2: So yes, Well tell dearon Fox what a contract means, Dan, Oh,
do you think he is? I don't think he's there.
They're on his destination list.
Speaker 1: So let's just assume that these players would at least
stay or be open to staying. Okay, the would be
the assumption. I'm I'm at the point where in total
free agency changes, I'm going to assume that bird rights
are just more important than they've arguably ever been.
Speaker 2: So your answer is yes to everyone you've you've said unequivocally.
Speaker 1: No, I actually probably wouldn't do it for the Aaron
Fox because I think that he would leave.
Speaker 2: Yeah, ball, Yeah right, I think well, I mean, is
he likely. He's probably likelier to leave than Kobe White,
just for very different reasons. Yeah, I think so. The
risk for Utah is that, like you do, snap up,
you know, whatever the next best thing is that comes along,
because you don't think you're ever going to be able
to sign anybody, so you just you take you know,
you could go on ten more players on your list
and they're just like, yeah, we'll take that guy, and
then it's just like you lock yourself into being not
good enough, except they got all those picks, so you
can kind of trade your way out of any kind
of trouble you get into. Not that that's an ideal
rebuild strategy.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get you to really fake. What about
some bonus, oh.
Speaker 2: Man, well, are you trading Kessler, Because I've already laid
out my stance on Walker Kessler trades.
Speaker 1: So bonus and marketing to be a pretty dream front
court though.
Speaker 2: That would be kind of fun. Man, Yeah, why not?
Speaker 1: I didn't think you were gonna say.
Speaker 2: Yes, let's set the floor high. Yeah, we don't know
what the ceiling is, but we're setting the floor.
Speaker 1: So yeah, So they could be interesting in that way.
I don't expect them to act that way, but like
that would be like I would totally consider. I mean,
they just gave away like some throwaway first round picks.
Like if they could have just given those three first
round picks for Kobe White like I might have. Would
you prefer that? Or Phoenix is twenty thirty one first?
Speaker 2: Uh? What twenty thirty one first from Phoenix versus what
Kobe White? Man, it's so far away. Any pick that
far off is really hard. I just think that pick
is going to be really good. Uh. If you told
me I was gonna keep Kobe White, I'd take Kobe White.
How about that?
Speaker 1: I think I would too.
Speaker 2: Can I get that concession from you?
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't completely roll it out for you. Try
to do something that just because Danny Ainge is He's
the king of almost, although I think the King's front
office is now the king of almost. They like the league,
how they've almost got where we had, Cam Johnson, John Collins,
Pascal Siakam, they were involved in Oganobi list goes on
most likely player to be traded here, though.
Speaker 2: Well it's got to come from the Sexton, Clarkson, Collins pods.
Speaker 1: Come on, all those reserve bigs.
Speaker 2: I think it's Sexton, isn't it Sexton? He's just I
can imagine more teams being interested in him.
Speaker 1: So I think there are two ways to make that argument.
Is one to dismiss it as wrong, and then two
just say saying like that the market is so barren
right now that some team with modest assets is gonna
come calling and maybe you get two first round picks
or picking a young player for him. But I'm also
just looking at it and thinking d Aaron Fox is
now on the trade market. That might hurt context and
in terms of which teams are gonna make him their
top priority. So I almost feel like Jordan Clarkson's my
answer because he's cheaper, and I think the Jazz would
part with him. In exchange for second round compensation.
Speaker 2: So he's got He's making fourteen this year and next.
Sexton's eighteen this year, nineteen next. Yeah, I don't mean yeah,
I guess that is a reasonably.
Speaker 1: And Dario charge deal with swaps for Jordan Clarkson do it?
Speaker 2: Is there a way for the Jazz Like we just
did the Pelicans a minute ago, but like if if
the if the Pelicans not that they would do this
because of what we all what we just talked about,
But like, is there if it's not New Orleans, is
there a team out there that has a contract just
the classic Like here's just a garbage thirty million this
year and next or whatever, and we're attaching picks to it.
Is that even an option for Utah? Like I'm I'm
struggling with think of the.
Speaker 1: Team that has that Williams in Chicago.
Speaker 2: That's a lot of Patrick Williams talk. Uh, I think
even I mean, if that's it? The landscape has really
changed in the league because it used to be real
easy to find bad money that you could get picks with,
and that just this that just isn't a thing now?
Is that is that where we are?
Speaker 1: It mattered more when free agency was a thing and
free agency hasn't been a thing, And like what since
Kevin Durand and Kyrie Irving went to Brooklyn basically.
Speaker 2: Because you do it to clear money because you had
plans to go sign player X, right, And yeah, it's
it's a it's a rough time to be a dumping
ground because nobody's got anything that they're looking to dump
because nobody's able to sign anybody.
Speaker 1: Right, And like, I think the cost of it is
just lowered, like we kind of like with Detroit and
tim hardawags, like, oh, they got three seconds and still
had to give up some stuff there. So maybe there's
a team like maybe Philly, Like I don't think they're
gonna give you a first, but like if Philly's looking
at duct attacks, would you help them like kJ Martin
and who would you take Andre Drummond and kJ Martin
and send back you know what Drew Eubanks are sending
him to it, like you could facilitate it that way,
and maybe like that's something they should absolutely consider as.
Speaker 2: Utah, Yeah, I agree. I just there's no more, there's
no more like, oh, you're getting a real first to
take on twenty five million or thirty million of bad money.
That's just which is bummer. I mean, like that's what
they should be doing. We gotta, I gotta just change
my my normal course of business for talking about teams
like this, because that's just what the.
Speaker 1: Warriors would give twenty five first to get off Dre or.
Speaker 2: That can we move off Andrew Wiggins Andreamnngreen and just
well the Warriors are free agent destination.
Speaker 1: So you know what's also challenging is like if that
stuff happens, not that it tends to happen. I mean
you'd want expiring contracts, but like a lot of these
teams are also what I think is changed. We have
fourteen teams in the luxury tax right now, so they're
looking to save money now, and that's just so much
harder to do mid season when there's you have some
teams with exceptions, and like Utah is so flexible beneath
the tax, but you sti't need to make the math work,
and that's what becomes a challenge as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you get any uh any podcast ruining notifications
during our nearly three hour record.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually was gonna ask you if you were
ready to talk about this Jimmy Butler trade.
Speaker 2: Let's stop grant.
Speaker 1: We did it in under three hours. Another brief podcast
from Hardwood Knocks. Are you ready to take us out
of here?
Speaker 2: That's what happens when you do an hour on the
Kings and Spurs. Got to hit those big markets. Uh,
you know, good job by us, Thanks everybody.
Speaker 1: What did we pitch to Utah? Like, let's go who
we're setting to Utah?
Speaker 2: Did Jimmy Butler? I think Kobe White.
Speaker 1: Like code we're trying to get. We're trying to get
you try to get Kobe White. Yeah, you're welcome for
that type of hash.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we had we had to.
Speaker 1: We got to be said they need wings and proceeded
to name a bunch of guards.
Speaker 2: And then talk about the macro issues facing NBA teams
that have bad salary and what to do with it.
That's definitely enough, I think out of both of us.
Thank you for listening, Thank you for watching. If you're
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that's going to do it. Marathon Western Conference Trade Primer
had to do it, shouts franklinly King. Apologies, Jared Allen